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Is anyone else happy about the Bike nerf?

No one?

 ductvader wrote:
Is anyone else happy about the Bike nerf?

I am.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, you can over-equip anything, preds are no different.

And preds are a rather poor unit to begin with, and with tau having the alternate army build (gunline) being widely considered one of the most annoying out there, do we REALLY profit form the alternative getting nerfed into the same grey unintresting values competetors have?

Our tanks used to be cool and intresting. costed an arm and a leg, but were COOL.
After the jinks change? I'd probably settle for bare bones hammers, if any. there is just no reason to invest in it any more as it does nothing impressive-its no longer good at actually tanking shots, and the mandatory Dpod went into doing practically nothing of value.

I would still take them, even after the nerf. Because you have markerlights, or did you forget? Which, I know, are capable of boosting the BS of snapshots even now. That -2BS for new snapshots means you need two lights overrule it. Boohoo.

Or you don't take the jink save, and plop the hammerhead in a ruin with Dpod for a 3+ cover. I've done that before, it's fantastic. The gun so so high-mounted that LoS isn't even an issue for returning fire. Hell, Ionheads are dropping blasts half the time. Regardless of BS, those have a 1/3 chance to be a direct hit.

Tri-Las preds aren't overequipped, by the by. It's the only way to make the thing a reliable AV tool, and slightly off topic but maybe they won't be so flimsy with the new damage chart.

 Ailaros wrote:
And come on, it makes sense that jink would become the vehiclular equivalent of going to ground. Just like how flat-out was switched to work like infantry run rules.

And tau are going to be hurt by this? Really? How many tau mech lists are there? Even so, if only there were some way to increase the BS of someone who was snap-firing until it was back up to normal or even higher.

This will be something that will make tau just straight stronger, as they'll be able to milk the benefits while once again just ignoring penalties.

I'm not bitching about it, I agree with the change, I am just trying to think through the effects, and especially how they effect the army I play and play against, since well that's where my concerns would lie.

Jink saves are apparently 4+ cover now. Also snapshots are -2 BS. White scars getting a 3+ cover and 2+ when turboboosting and firing twinlinked BS2 bolters makes them WAY better now.

Snaps are -2...sounds like snapshots just flipped on what races it benefits more.

BS4 armies are now snapping at BS2, which probably affects overwatch too. Dafuq lol.

BoomWolf wrote:Well, you can over-equip anything, preds are no different.

"Tri-las" is not a synonym of "over-equipped".

BoomWolf wrote:And preds are a rather poor unit to begin with,

What?

BoomWolf wrote:and with tau having the alternate army build (gunline) being widely considered one of the most annoying out there, do we REALLY profit form the alternative getting nerfed into the same grey unintresting values competetors have?

We've been over this already. Tau gain all the benefits while easily avoiding the penalties thanks to markerlights.

If anything, we might see people start playing with more skimmers because there will finally be something that competes with riptide cheese.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Snaps are -2...sounds like snapshots just flipped on what races it benefits more.
BS4 armies are now snapping at BS2, which probably affects overwatch too. Dafuq lol.

So can orks hit flyers? can they overwatch?

But yeah, huge buff to BS 4 armies, who no longer really need skyfire

 Exergy wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Snaps are -2...sounds like snapshots just flipped on what races it benefits more.
BS4 armies are now snapping at BS2, which probably affects overwatch too. Dafuq lol.

So can orks hit flyers? can they overwatch?

But yeah, huge buff to BS 4 armies, who no longer really need skyfire

Means that you no longer pay extra points when snap-firing compared to orks and their incredible snap firing prowess.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Snaps are -2...sounds like snapshots just flipped on what races it benefits more.
BS4 armies are now snapping at BS2, which probably affects overwatch too. Dafuq lol.

So can orks hit flyers? can they overwatch?
But yeah, huge buff to BS 4 armies, who no longer really need skyfire

Means that you no longer pay extra points when snap-firing compared to orks and their incredible snap firing prowess.

Well I just mean, can you fire with BS 0? Because if orks cannot overwatch, cannot ever hit flyers, cannot fire while on a moving vehicle, just makes them seem dull and immobile. I liked that orks were half as effective shooting on the move as they were while stationary. Gave them an air of over excitement, that the only reason their BS was so low was because they were always moving too much to take careful aim. So I hope that an entire army isnt prohibited from the new mechanics of the game(snap shots)

That said BS 4 troops are more expensive than BS3 troops and it rarely comes out. Them being equal in 6th edition snap shotting was kind of unfair, but them now being twice as effective is a swing the other way.

I'm sure it'll be to a minimum of 1.

I think it would be pretty easy to assume that BS can't go below 1 when snapshotting.

Yea just about everything cant be reduced to 0 except strength or toughness iirc. Yes there are BS0 models, but thats part of the model's statlines so thats different. If it becomes orks cannot fire snaps, it would be the most unfluffy thing every since they are MORE likely to hit you as you charge them than anyone else - the trigger is already down before you even came around the corner, and it never releases while hes smacking you upside the head with the butt of the gun! lol

Yep, this bs changes will pretty strongly nerf flyers probably like should. Though, will make stuff like ork flyers a 1-use unit. But still not enough to bring fmc in line. Iirc they're gona get only 1 grounding at the end of the phase IF they got wounded.

Oh and assasin with bs8 will shoot down any bird from the sky. Gk now have 0 problems vs flyers, eh =)

 Ailaros wrote:

BoomWolf wrote:and with tau having the alternate army build (gunline) being widely considered one of the most annoying out there, do we REALLY profit form the alternative getting nerfed into the same grey unintresting values competetors have?

We've been over this already. Tau gain all the benefits while easily avoiding the penalties thanks to markerlights.

If anything, we might see people start playing with more skimmers because there will finally be something that competes with riptide cheese.

How is "always on" defense to a "only if you lower next turn's shooting" is a buff?

And how do people who dont play tau just manage to think markerlights are free or something? its a to-hit buffer based on hitting from the firstplace that is placed on some of the most fragile units in the game. seriusly its like people assume I got 16 assured markerlight hits every turn to distribute at will "you can boost your BS of everything to 5, AND ignore snap fire as you boost that too, and ALL your guns ignore cover...and...and...and..."...yea, if I had equal points spent into markers as actually into the shooting units. geez, markerlights are a sweet mechanic, but nothing the divination psykers everyone else has don't get done. there is a reason taudar armies use divination rather then markerlights.

The OP is using the word "destroyed" in a very inappropriate way, I think.

It's making me wonder if using a triarch stalker just to take advantage of twin-linked snapfiring is worth it.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

BoomWolf wrote:and with tau having the alternate army build (gunline) being widely considered one of the most annoying out there, do we REALLY profit form the alternative getting nerfed into the same grey unintresting values competetors have?

We've been over this already. Tau gain all the benefits while easily avoiding the penalties thanks to markerlights.

If anything, we might see people start playing with more skimmers because there will finally be something that competes with riptide cheese.

How is "always on" defense to a "only if you lower next turn's shooting" is a buff?

And how do people who dont play tau just manage to think markerlights are free or something? its a to-hit buffer based on hitting from the firstplace that is placed on some of the most fragile units in the game. seriusly its like people assume I got 16 assured markerlight hits every turn to distribute at will "you can boost your BS of everything to 5, AND ignore snap fire as you boost that too, and ALL your guns ignore cover...and...and...and..."...yea, if I had equal points spent into markers as actually into the shooting units. geez, markerlights are a sweet mechanic, but nothing the divination psykers everyone else has don't get done. there is a reason taudar armies use divination rather then markerlights.

Jink is getting a +1 bonus.

So a DPod Hammerhead can claim a 3+ jink save. Which means that a Trilas predator is just about unable to hurt it.

A Dpod hammerhead already COULD get 3+ save in ruins, and had a 4+ save outside of it without harming its shooting (and markerlights are NOT free, every one spend to undo snap shots is one not spent to actually improve shooting)
And hammerheads were still largely never taken in serious play except a random longstrike tank here and there.

I expect the few hammerheads still played seriously to be dropped. I'd still run mine, as that's what I have. but I'll probably bare-bone them now.

 BoomWolf wrote:
A Dpod hammerhead already COULD get 3+ save in ruins, and had a 4+ save outside of it without harming its shooting (and markerlights are NOT free, every one spend to undo snap shots is one not spent to actually improve shooting)
And hammerheads were still largely never taken in serious play except a random longstrike tank here and there.

I expect the few hammerheads still played seriously to be dropped. I'd still run mine, as that's what I have. but I'll probably bare-bone them now.

And now you get a 3+ save in the open.

And call me entirely unsympathetic to a Tau player's woes.

Oh boohoo, my Tank which is still better than just about anything anyone besides the Eldar and Guard get has to snapshot to get a 3+ save in the open while the new damage charts means that my tanks can never be one shotted by anything with less than AP2.

Please, spare me your whinging.

A wave serpent can now flat out into your deployment zone with a 3+ cover, serp shield, and only a 7+ explodes it on a pen.

Tau will be ok with ignore cover+ tank hunter, but otherwise it's going to take 9 glance/pens to wreck it.

I see some potential for aggressive units like wraithguard/seer council in a serpent. DE IC can also jump in and ride along.

 Kain wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
A Dpod hammerhead already COULD get 3+ save in ruins, and had a 4+ save outside of it without harming its shooting (and markerlights are NOT free, every one spend to undo snap shots is one not spent to actually improve shooting)
And hammerheads were still largely never taken in serious play except a random longstrike tank here and there.

I expect the few hammerheads still played seriously to be dropped. I'd still run mine, as that's what I have. but I'll probably bare-bone them now.

And now you get a 3+ save in the open.

And call me entirely unsympathetic to a Tau player's woes.

Oh boohoo, my Tank which is still better than just about anything anyone besides the Eldar and Guard get has to snapshot to get a 3+ save in the open while the new damage charts means that my tanks can never be one shotted by anything with less than AP2.

Please, spare me your whinging.

3+ in the open while harming shooting is far worse then a blanket 4+

The new damage table applies to all tanks yaknow, not just tau's. even the poor predator enjoys it.

Nor did I whine, I made a clean claim that the the SKIMMER part of tau appear to get worse, making the annoying gunline all the more appealing instead of the far more fun, fluid and fair mechanised armies (where you run devilfishes, hammerheads, phiranas and stuff), an style who is already underplayed as it features less pure efficiency then the dominant gunline and riptide spam, who remain just as strong-effectively nerfing the wrong side of tau. (and I will make no attempts to defend the HYMP broadside or riptides, they ARE too good. but they are also unchanged-this is a talk about JINX)

Nor are tau tanks all that impressive even compared to others. who HAS anything like a main battle tanks? marines, eldar, necron, IG and tau? the predators are the only one that the hammerheads have an edge above, a tank who is NEVER seen in any list remotely competitive? but then again, SM also have the BIGGER tank in form of land raiders. yaknow, the ones you are hopeless to try and glance down, and the harder-to-get "explode" result is the only real hope. so its not like SM lack in the tank zone either.

However, your general hatered of anything and anyone related to tau does NOT speak in your favor. random hatred is not healthy to you or the game.

Land raiders are not worth mentioning in the same breath as any main battle tank. They're a transport. Their firepower is beyond pitiful.

Now, yes, this is undoubtedly a skimmer nerf. My opinion, at least, is that it is generally deserved. You now have to make the tactical decision to dodge or shoot, and tau at the very least have the choice to do both in marker lights - a choice which other armies sans eldar lack.

Eldar just has to be less brazen than before and will operate exactly the same.

 ductvader wrote:
Eldar just has to be less brazen than before and will operate exactly the same.

Not sure, Serpents will still be able to Snap Shot at 5+ - problem is until we see what they have done we don't know if they have actually tried to fix the problems (the spamed cheese units like Serpent) or just blanket bombed areas................. Other (including Eldar) units needed help and unless CC is better or assaulting out of vehicles.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Eldar just has to be less brazen than before and will operate exactly the same.

Not sure, Serpents will still be able to Snap Shot at 5+ - problem is until we see what they have done we don't know if they have actually tried to fix the problems (the spamed cheese units like Serpent) or just blanket bombed areas................. Other (including Eldar) units needed help and unless CC is better or assaulting out of vehicles.

Eldar is fast enough to find a 5+ cover save and shoot at normal BS...then HF put it back at 4+...For serpents this just means going into the open is more of a gamble cost/reward decision.

Serpents are also getting 2.2 S6 hits and 1.9 S7 Ignores cover hits on average...as opposed to the full bs getting 3.5 S6 hits and 3.1 S7 hits...so about 2 hits less on average when jinking.

If I math-ed right...ha

darkcloak wrote:
Hmmm, well still just a rumour but I think that's kind of silly.

Wave Serpent spam breaks games so instead of nerfing the serpent shield we'll mess with jink saves? Give an inch, take a mile much anyone?

Seems almost like true blue, dyed in the wool democracy to me!

The ironic part is that the best armies in 40k ignored the jink save anyway so Im not bothered by this change at all. All it really did was screw bikes.

If anything this just encourages the mega effective version of serpent spam.

Ignores cover decreasing to -2cover save is my favorite part of what I've heard about 7th.

Bugs are about to get awesome.

I really honestly don't care that much about my Wave Serpents. Yeah they're great and I love them. I'll still be able to use them, and they'll still be good.

What I'm really irritated about is my Night Spinner and Fire Prism. If they jink they can't fire AT ALL. The Fire Prism can snap-shot it's focused beam, which I guess is a small consolation prize. At least the Wave Serpent can still fire Snap Shots. It's a nerf, surely, but one that can be worked with.

My Night Spinner, by comparison, has no defense at all unless I decide not to shoot next turn. If I jink, it stands around doing nothing. Wonderful.

Murrdox wrote:
My Night Spinner, by comparison, has no defense at all unless I decide not to shoot next turn. If I jink, it stands around doing nothing. Wonderful.

Because it's impossible to get a cover save without jinking?

rigeld2 wrote:

Murrdox wrote:
My Night Spinner, by comparison, has no defense at all unless I decide not to shoot next turn. If I jink, it stands around doing nothing. Wonderful.

Because it's impossible to get a cover save without jinking?

It also has barrage for hiding purposes.

Fire Prism is less good...but it was always less good.