Now I'm normally pretty vocal when it comes to bashing GW, so I thought I'd inject some balance.
It seems someone at GW is at least actively trying to turn things around of late.
The way the 7th Ed 40K is being done gives me some hope:
They've put up (or are in the progress of putting up) a 3 part video series explaining some of the new mechanics, so they are trying to provide some information. That's a serious improvement over the normal rumour embargo, even if it's a bit inconsistent.
The new BRB is split into 3 parts - Rules (~200 pages), Fluff (~150 pages), Hobby (~150 pages). It's still in a bundle, but that's sort of what Battlefront does too so I can't complain too much about that. Now I don't need to carry such a huge tome about.
The BRB is now apparently going to be £5 more than the old one, which actually seems like a reasonable increase (11%) over 2 years and is coming in a lot cheaper than I was expecting (I was honestly expecting it to be £65 rather than £50). It's still a lot more than most other companies, but not by the usual GW margin.
So hopefully this will continue and I can go back to wasting huge sums of money with them again.
I agree, checking a rule or a bit of fluff will be much easier if each is in a separate book and makes it easy to transport (especially as I walk to my local club )
I kinda wish they would sell the books individually. I don't really need a seperate book full of Ultramarines, and another full of recycled fluff. I do like the idea however. Its one of those things that if sold them separately I'd buy them one by one over time.
If enough of us go to GW and ask for the rulebook by itself, and are told we have to buy the whole bundle, and we say we won't and will wait for the rulebook to be released by itself, then it may encourage GW to release the rulebook alone.
£50 is a pretty reasonable price for three volumes in a slipcase, in my opinion. Although I only really need the rules, and will switch my pre-order to a second copy of DV if an updated DV is available within a few days of the new rulebook...
The BRB is now apparently going to be £5 more than the old one, which actually seems like a reasonable increase (11%) over 2 years and is coming in a lot cheaper than I was expecting (I was honestly expecting it to be £65 rather than £50). It's still a lot more than most other companies, but not by the usual GW margin.
The BRB is now apparently going to be £5 more than the old one, which actually seems like a reasonable increase (11%) over 2 years and is coming in a lot cheaper than I was expecting (I was honestly expecting it to be £65 rather than £50). It's still a lot more than most other companies, but not by the usual GW margin.
Printed Materials infalation costs was 1% for 2013, similar figure to 2012. So what's the additional 9% for other than increased profits?
Perhaps there are increased operating or legal cost?
The cost of production of a product has very little to do with how much the product costs when it hits the shelf. There's many things that happen in between; shipping, storage. Who knows. Hell, the cost of production could've gone up because of added content or somesuch.
I think it's a logical leap to say "Currency inflation is only 1%, so the remaining price increase is solely for profit!!!" I think it's to increase revenue, which may be necessary in the face of increasing costs.
Printed Materials infalation costs was 1% for 2013, similar figure to 2012. So what's the additional 9% for other than increased profits?
Inflation numbers aren't exactly what i'd call reliable. It is widely debated that governments understate inflation figures to lower all their debt obligations that are tied to measures like CPI and PPI.
The main reason why these accusations have some merit is that government economists around the globe have adopted the method of hedonicly adjusting virtually every metric.What that means is that they are assigning "productivity gains" that suppresses the prices reported. So if you bought a computer last year for $2,000 and you bought a $2,000 computer this year, they would assign a productivity gain because this year's computer is faster. It's silly and arbitrary but it's also how they are keeping inflation in check on the headline numbers. Nevermind that the cost of raw materials, housing, insurance, energy and food have skyrocketed over the past decade. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_regression
I would encourage anyone who wants to know more about the use of hedonic regression in inflation numbers to research it for themselves. It's really tragic because so many people's retirements heavily depend on the accuracy of those numbers.
$85 dollars might be reasonable for 3 hardcover books in a slipcase - but apart from the actual rule book, do the two smaller books need to be hardcover?
Battlefront did the same thing with their 3rd edition - a 300 page hardcover rule book, then a softcover book that had Army Lists for Americans, British, Soviets and Germans, and a booklet that was a both a painting guide for the big four in Late War and a guide as to what battlefields should look like on the Western and Eastern front. All that was for $60, with the additional savings of being able to show your 2nd ed book to retailers to get the smaller, softcover rule book for free.
Ruberu wrote: ^It might work. But that would require us to work as a team and refuse to buy it until they do.
No, just buy it from somewhere else.............................. As long as GW stores aren't selling them, the point is made.
The vendor still buys from GW
Yes, at 40% less than the consumer buys direct.
It's the best compromise for those who don't want to cut their nose off to spite their face, it still reduces income to GW, and, more importantly, they will see that sales are going through independents and not through their own chain. As they've been sliding a subtle knife into their independent retailers for years, anything that can be done to show support for the independent seller and encourage a healthy, more competitive marketplace, should be actively pursued.
Ruberu wrote: ^It might work. But that would require us to work as a team and refuse to buy it until they do.
It just needs a high proportion of players individually to decide they won't buy the slipcase set.
I am not arguing for a boycott. I think people will make their own decision which I hope will be enough to cause some ripples in the GW Finance department.
I could see myself buying the fluff part and maybe the hobby part if they'd be sold separately. I have no use for the rules though, so I definitely won't be buying the slipcase. Might ask on a local forum if someone wants to split, but that's as far as I'd go.
Otherwise I'm all for the concept of three separate books in a slipcase. No objections on that.
fishy bob wrote: I could see myself buying the fluff part and maybe the hobby part if they'd be sold separately. I have no use for the rules though, so I definitely won't be buying the slipcase. Might ask on a local forum if someone wants to split, but that's as far as I'd go.
Otherwise I'm all for the concept of three separate books in a slipcase. No objections on that.
You'll get a split that way easily enough, possibly even just for postage, as I imagine that the vast majority of gamers only want the rules book.
fishy bob wrote: I could see myself buying the fluff part and maybe the hobby part if they'd be sold separately. I have no use for the rules though, so I definitely won't be buying the slipcase. Might ask on a local forum if someone wants to split, but that's as far as I'd go.
Otherwise I'm all for the concept of three separate books in a slipcase. No objections on that.
I'll take that deal. Seriously, PM me if you want to work something out.
I don't see how saying "Wow they didn't screw us nearly as hard as I was expecting" is a good thing. Who exactly is the BRB supposed to be for anyway? New players would be better off getting the Starter boxed set, older players don't want 300 junk pages of recycled hobby and fluff that they have to pay £30 extra for.
You can already guess what it's gonna be like:
- Space marines of the front (extra points for screaming bald guy).
- Obligatory grim dark future pages.
- A picture of some neckbeards enjoying a game of Warhammer 40k.
- Labeled close-up of the table.
- Core rules with some minor changes. (This is the only bit most people would willing to pay for)
- Colour pages with photos from the website.
- A big picture of the galaxy.
- Some horrendous John Blanche artwork.
- Copypasta.
- A picture of GW super glue and text that you always skip.
- Appendix
I already bought this book twice, and both times I was disappointed by the amount of filler and lack of content compared to the older books. RT was literally bursting with content, they had stuff written sideways in the margins it was so packed in. Now they save half the content to pad out the codex books, and pad it out with full page glossy photos. The BRB has no right to be 500 pages, is should be 20 and called the RB.
I might read it, but I'm certainly not buying it again.
So it's 3 books in one, but I have to buy all 3 to get the one I need. So here is the boardroom meeting in February...
Um, guys...we just lost 25% of our value because we are really screwing things up.
Yeah, we know, maybe our customers are getting tired of poorly written rules, lack of play testing, constant price hikes, over priced models, pushing them to play with more expensive stuff...
Well, maybe, but they seem to just keep tacking it in the "_ _ _" and seem fine with it, so that can't be the reason.
Ya, you're right, it's the economy...no, climate change...ya, that's it.
Ok, so how do we get the 25% back and fast, our "investors" are upset.
How about we milk the cash cow again, early?
Great Idea! Ok, we haven't finished releasing 6th ed. books, but we can fix the rules a bit because we really "effed" em up with 6th, wow we made assault useless, we mad flyers way OP, we totally screwed over half the armies.
Ya, but we sold a crap load of flyers, Tau, Eldar, and big expensive models.
So what do we do?
We add some stuff to make people buy more and bigger models, force them to buy the rules again and the new codices we will have to write.
But won't they get mad about us not releasing the other stuff before an update? Na, as long as we "say" it's better, they will just do the same thing as last time, buy more stuff!
Super idea, let's get ahold of the kids Infant Games to get those new rules written, we need to go to press ASAP!
Oh, and lets add an Unbound rule for army selection, oh ya that's fricking awesome, we turn everyone into "That Guy" so we can't be blamed for totally over the top lists!
I don't see how doing something they should have doing all along (and indeed what other companies have done for years) in terms of videos/previews is deserving of praise.
I don't see how making three separate books (a good idea) but bundling them (a bad idea) when most people will only want one or two of those books is deserving of praise.
I don't see how selling a book for more than it was 2 years ago (shorter edition life span than the three before it) at a price that already makes other companies' rulebooks blush is deserving of praise.
No. Not good on GW. When they actually make a change that goes above and beyond what most other competitors are already doing, than I'll say good on GW.
For that to happen, I'd expect full previews, teasers, and other blogs of informational goodness about upcoming releases. Who knows, maybe even an inkling of customer interaction through social media and the like. I'd expect prices within the realm of reason for the content included. I'd expect things like rules only books for the game to be made available separately and at a fair price.
I'd also expect them to clean up and balance the game, but that's an issue for another thread.
Because it's a step in the right direction, perhaps, Blacksails? Once you are at a "GW is evil, they are terrible!" mindset then nothing they do is worth acknowledging as positive, and that's where you're at. I'd encourage you to find a new hobby, since you hate GW that much. You won't be satisfied until EVERYTHING you think is wrong is fixed to your liking, and that will never happen.
troa wrote: Because it's a step in the right direction, perhaps, Blacksails? Once you are at a "GW is evil, they are terrible!" mindset then nothing they do is worth acknowledging as positive, and that's where you're at. I'd encourage you to find a new hobby, since you hate GW that much. You won't be satisfied until EVERYTHING you think is wrong is fixed to your liking, and that will never happen.
GW is the HHHobby, not the hobby.
But you're right, it can be taken as a positive sign that GW have finally acknowledged that taking everything commonly seen as the right thing to do, then doing the opposite, is about as fething gak a business plan as it is possible to get.
troa wrote: Because it's a step in the right direction, perhaps, Blacksails? Once you are at a "GW is evil, they are terrible!" mindset then nothing they do is worth acknowledging as positive, and that's where you're at. I'd encourage you to find a new hobby, since you hate GW that much. You won't be satisfied until EVERYTHING you think is wrong is fixed to your liking, and that will never happen.
Sure, its a step in the right direction, but hardly deserving of praise. I've never been of the mindset to say 'good job' to doing the bare minimum.
I'll say something positive about GW when they deserve it.
The 'hobby' is more than GW, and I already play other games.
Further, I'll be satisfied much before 'everything' if fixed to 'my' liking. I'll be satisfied when they start attaining basic levels of competency in game design, customer interaction, and pricing as the competitors. Not unreasonable at all.
troa wrote: Because it's a step in the right direction, perhaps, Blacksails? Once you are at a "GW is evil, they are terrible!" mindset then nothing they do is worth acknowledging as positive, and that's where you're at. I'd encourage you to find a new hobby, since you hate GW that much. You won't be satisfied until EVERYTHING you think is wrong is fixed to your liking, and that will never happen.
Fair enough, however it might take a few more steps in a positive direction before GW deserves much recognition. Remember, despite the glut* of information GW is providing about 7th edition, they still pulled the rug out from under the fan base by shortening the life span of 6th edition by at least 2 years. So, a few videos are nice, and a cynic could argue NECESSARY to stave off a tidal wave of anger from the aforementioned rug-less fans, but it is a drop in the bucket compared to the antics GW is pulling with 7th edition and has pulled for the last few years with questionable rule and model releases.
It might be premature to dust off the knee pads for the GW suck-a-thon just yet.
*This is sarcasm. Some videos and hearsay from GW reps is still crap marketing, especially in 2014.
If it is a step in the right direction, then you typically want to acknowledge that, and encourage further steps. Basic "how to get people to improve" methodology. If the changes were all misguided, than you acknowledge that as well, don't get me wrong, but if there are good changes then you MUST acknowledge those.
Going "you suck still!" just encourages more of the past undesirable behavior, as the attempt at improvement goes unnoticed. It's as simple as that. It also indicates you should take a break from the forums, and worrying about what GW is doing, as it's apparently aggravating.
Objective feedback is useful, pure anger reactions are not, and are why forums (which SHOULD be a GREAT place for them to get info!) are fairly worthless. Reading over the forums the last couple years, I'd say that it's not hard to argue that the community seems to constantly want overhaul and standardization, which for the GW business model means a new edition.
Yes, they do have lots of improvement to go. But if one is jaded it's time to move on.
I'll also mention that pictures of this weeks WDW, which were photos of another users own personal copy of the mag, that I'd rehosted on Photobucket were taken down today at someone's (presumably a GW employee) request for copyright violation.
So that's time and money wasted to find the pics and inform Photobucket, but not only that, those pics were being used solely to generate interest in their product. The Internet being what it is, they're out there now, so it was a futile exercise, whose objective seems to have been, once again, to handicap people trying to promote GW's products.
I have no doubt that there probably was some sort of violation in reproducing pages from a magazine that isn't officially out yet, but surely one has to look at the longer game here? Just because you're legally allowed to do something, doesn't mean its a good idea, or in your best interest, to do so.
So, yeah, a long way to go.
PS If anyone hasn't seen those pics and wants to, they're still up on the FB page I link to in my sig!
H.B.M.C. wrote: I bought an expensive massive book less than 2 years ago. I then bought two expensive expansions less than a year ago.
I won't be buying another.
I think a lot of people probably feel the same way.
I also think it's pretty amusing to say that they are 'improving' when it has never been more expensive to get a collection of rules and get the damned models on the tabletop. This whole thing has got 'fleece them' written all over it, and I feel sorry for the dedicated fans that are going to be reaching into their pockets again and again if they just want to continue to play the game.
troa wrote: If it is a step in the right direction, then you typically want to acknowledge that, and encourage further steps. Basic "how to get people to improve" methodology. If the changes were all misguided, than you acknowledge that as well, don't get me wrong, but if there are good changes then you MUST acknowledge those.
GW is not a child that needs encouragement to keep going. They are a multinational corporation. I expect them to always strive for the best because they should want to for innumerable reasons. Further, meeting the bare minimums is not something to be praised. It should simply be accepted. I don't have to acknowledge anything, let alone when a corporation finally does something they should have been doing for a decade.
Going "you suck still!" just encourages more of the past undesirable behavior, as the attempt at improvement goes unnoticed. It's as simple as that. It also indicates you should take a break from the forums, and worrying about what GW is doing, as it's apparently aggravating.
Point out where I said 'you suck still'. If you'll recall, I said 'not deserving of praise'. Then I further went to qualify that with what it would take for me to acknowledge their positive moves. Going back to point number one; GW is not a child that needs to be given a gold star for doing the bare minimum everyone else in the industry has been doing for years. I stay active on these boards because I still care about 40k. GW, being the owner of this game means that anything that happens to 40k is a direct result of GW, therefore I find myself commenting. You know, discussing things, on a discussion board. You also seem to be attributing emotions to my post that aren't there; if anything, I'm constantly disappointed by GW, as I want them to succeed and 40k to be a good game that I want to introduce more people to.
Objective feedback is useful, pure anger reactions are not, and are why forums (which SHOULD be a GREAT place for them to get info!) are fairly worthless. Reading over the forums the last couple years, I'd say that it's not hard to argue that the community seems to constantly want overhaul and standardization, which for the GW business model means a new edition.
Point out the anger in my posts. Feedback and criticism (on these boards in particular) is often mistaken for anger, or 'hating' as some people like to call it. The forums are a great place for gleaning info, its that many people mistake anything that isn't 100% positive as beeing raging trash, which couldn't be further from the truth.
Yes, they do have lots of improvement to go. But if one is jaded it's time to move on.
Maybe I'm jaded, but that doesn't mean I can't stick around here and weigh my opinion on these matters as the game still matters to me.
I kind of agree with BlackSails on this. This is the step in the right direction, but this is what should be required for them, not something of praise for doing something good and just breathing.
They really need to go above and beyond to impress me, but that is just me.
Tanakosyke22 wrote: I kind of agree with BlackSails on this. This is the step in the right direction, but this is what should be required for them, not something of praise for doing something good and just breathing.
They really need to go above and beyond to impress me, but that is just me.
I personally don't feel like they have to go above and beyond, I just feel like they need to put in the average amount of effort and engagement with their customers that any other company would in this modern social media world. Have a twitter account. Have a Facebook page or a blog-type site where reps from the company interact with the community. If they could get to that point, with me at least, they would win a lot of good will.
The problem, I think, is their business model is so WTF that it makes those interactions extraordinarily painful for them, so they are completely withdrawn from it.
Tanakosyke22 wrote: I kind of agree with BlackSails on this. This is the step in the right direction, but this is what should be required for them, not something of praise for doing something good and just breathing.
They really need to go above and beyond to impress me, but that is just me.
I personally don't feel like they have to go above and beyond, I just feel like they need to put in the average amount of effort and engagement with their customers that any other company would in this modern social media world. Have a twitter account. Have a Facebook page or a blog-type site where reps from the company interact with the community. If they could get to that point, with me at least, they would win a lot of good will.
The problem, I think, is their business model is so WTF that it makes those interactions extraordinarily painful for them, so they are completely withdrawn from it.
I guess that is fair enough. Although I have to say that, as you put it, those interaction would be strenous as best since Games Workshop have dug itself into. At least if they did that then they are starting to do it right.
dereksatkinson wrote: Maybe we could all just refuse to buy GW models on Tuesdays. I hear that worked great for sending a message to oil companies.
Won't do any good.
Thanks to the one man store program, nearly every shop is closed on a Tuesday.
Even then it wouldn't matter since it wouldn't change most of our purchasing patterns enough to make a difference. I mean how many of us are buying stuff on a weekly basis to make GW notice a sudden shift like that?
Heck, even if everyone who participated did we'd need to go longer than a single day every week, and then they'd just fire the GW store managers for not meeting their sales goals.
Is it confirmed that the mini-rulebook in the boxed set will NOT have the full rules in it.
If that's the case, I'm even more annoyed with GW. Being able to get the boxed set mini rulebook 2nd hand has kept me in at least two editions of 40k. If it's not complete anymore, then the new rulebook is even less satisfying.
More to the point, I see nothing "Good on GW" for releasing a new ruleset (no matter how it's bound) that is only moderatly more expensive than it's predecessor and accompanied by codices that are considerably more so.
dereksatkinson wrote: Maybe we could all just refuse to buy GW models on Tuesdays. I hear that worked great for sending a message to oil companies.
Won't do any good.
Thanks to the one man store program, nearly every shop is closed on a Tuesday.
Even then it wouldn't matter since it wouldn't change most of our purchasing patterns enough to make a difference. I mean how many of us are buying stuff on a weekly basis to make GW notice a sudden shift like that?
Heck, even if everyone who participated did we'd need to go longer than a single day every week, and then they'd just fire the GW store managers for not meeting their sales goals.
I'm trying to compromise. I don't like the fact that the new edition is coming out so early but at the same time I want to stay relevant with people at the FLGS. So I've decided to wait until a rules-only edition of the book comes out or I can purchase just the rules on eBay for a reasonable price.
In the past I've been very supportive of GW, I have my Collector's 6th Edition, number 2144 out of 4000. It is a pretty damn nice book, I certainly won't be getting rid of it, it cost $130 at the time! But it only lasted half the time, and that to me severely decreases the value of any future books (since a significant portion of the value comes from the application of the rules themselves).
I imagine that if others are similarly-minded then sales of 7th will be affected. But of course I'm not here to shout anyone down from buying the book, more just detailing my perspective.
Eilif wrote: Is it confirmed that the mini-rulebook in the boxed set will NOT have the full rules in it.
If that's the case, I'm even more annoyed with GW. Being able to get the boxed set mini rulebook 2nd hand has kept me in at least two editions of 40k. If it's not complete anymore, then the new rulebook is even less satisfying.
That makes sense, GW is trying to extract maximum money from their customers in any way possible. I think the mini-rulebook was one of the last items of great quality per cost.
It's either that or Tom Kirby finally discovered eBay, and the great Gnashing of Teeth began.
Im gonna let GW slip on the early new edition, only because with the exception of unbound and demon lore, its pretty decent sounding.
But if they try do another edition shortly after I will not go further.
In saying that though a 3 part book sounds so much better than the usual mega book. There is more to like about what they are releasing and how they are releasing it over most of their releases.
Sorry, there's NFW I am getting on this bandwagon. Take your optimism and EAT IT.
Seriously, GW is going to have us paying for new rules systems continuously. I am still getting used to 6th edition and now the whole thing is about to change.
I know people who have bought entire new armies - $2k+ - because the stuff they had in 5th edition no longer works. Are we really saying we are all content with that? Like, I see Thousand Sons suddenly about to become the OP uber unit - is that what everyone actually wants, a situation that is set up where the company can just screw with the rules to drive sales? Where there's constant churn, and you need to learn things over again and again?
I am through paying through the nose for GW's miniatures and no way am I buying into this new edition. Getting out the 2nd edition rules right now to build a World Eaters army with librarians.
I fail to see how this is a good thing. You shouldn't be thanking a company for not screwing you as hard as they could. You shouldn't be thanking them at all for getting something right once or getting one thing right in the middle of a debacle such as a new $85 rulebook 2 years after the last $80 rulebook. There's nothing good about the situation.
They arent screwing anybody. Dont buy the damn thing if you dont like it. You are only screwing yourself if you buy it.
just stick to older editions if that's what you want. But this edition shows some real promise (in my opinion) to improving almost all the problems I have had with 40k.
If its an improvement im happy, especially since they literally have improved everything except force organisation so far.
I found 4th boring. I hated 5th. I gave 6th a chance because I saw genuine improvements in the rules... and it's done and dusted in 2 years. I won't be dragged in again. They've lost me.
Sorry, but I think that is a matter of debate. People who have already invested in an army and want to keep it relevant are faced with a real dilemma: either pay the ever inflating prices, or quit the mainstream game. Since neither option is attractive I would argue that those people are in fact being screwed. It isn't just a simple don't like it don't buy it deal. It is more akin maintenance costs. People are stuck between not liking it, but also being committed and invested in their army. That's before we even talk about the quality of the maintenance work.
Swastakowey wrote: Well what is no longer relevant in the update with the exception of the main rule book?
That is quite an overwhelming exception, when the rulebook is coming in at £50 a pop. Especially considering that the necessary part would probably fit in short pamphlet.
Accolade wrote: I'm trying to compromise. I don't like the fact that the new edition is coming out so early but at the same time I want to stay relevant with people at the FLGS. So I've decided to wait until a rules-only edition of the book comes out or I can purchase just the rules on eBay for a reasonable price.
In the past I've been very supportive of GW, I have my Collector's 6th Edition, number 2144 out of 4000. It is a pretty damn nice book, I certainly won't be getting rid of it, it cost $130 at the time! But it only lasted half the time, and that to me severely decreases the value of any future books (since a significant portion of the value comes from the application of the rules themselves).
I imagine that if others are similarly-minded then sales of 7th will be affected. But of course I'm not here to shout anyone down from buying the book, more just detailing my perspective.
And I wasn't trying to claim anyone was, I was just pointing out another issue with the approach of boycotting the GW stores: they just blame the employees, not the consumer for lagging sales and replace them.
Frankly I feel an old fashioned letter writing campaign (as in actual, physical letters) would do more good. Say, to Tom Kirby about why you're not buying their stuff, or to Jervis Johnson or the Rules Team why you don't like the game, ect.
I've sent in a letter about the Sisters codex detailing a LOT of fixes for them and plan to do another one for more codex related stuff once I have the new rules in hand to work off of. And I plan to do more until they legally prevent my from doing so, or until I run out of stuff to point out and go "that is a problem". Which ever comes first.
So yeah, pick your poison and start badgering them with letters. I can even give you the address if you're willing to give it a go:
Swastakowey wrote: Well what is no longer relevant in the update with the exception of the main rule book?
That is quite an overwhelming exception, when the rulebook is coming in at £50 a pop. Especially considering that the necessary part would probably fit in short pamphlet.
Unless your alone with no gaming friends then its pretty easy to just pool together for a rule set. After many years of gaming I have only ever had one main rule book. Just one, the rest where communal. There are many ways of getting your hands on one rule book. Only need one for a group of people to play. Not one per person.
So other than buying a new book, whats the downfall?
Accolade wrote: I'm trying to compromise. I don't like the fact that the new edition is coming out so early but at the same time I want to stay relevant with people at the FLGS. So I've decided to wait until a rules-only edition of the book comes out or I can purchase just the rules on eBay for a reasonable price.
In the past I've been very supportive of GW, I have my Collector's 6th Edition, number 2144 out of 4000. It is a pretty damn nice book, I certainly won't be getting rid of it, it cost $130 at the time! But it only lasted half the time, and that to me severely decreases the value of any future books (since a significant portion of the value comes from the application of the rules themselves).
I imagine that if others are similarly-minded then sales of 7th will be affected. But of course I'm not here to shout anyone down from buying the book, more just detailing my perspective.
And I wasn't trying to claim anyone was, I was just pointing out another issue with the approach of boycotting the GW stores: they just blame the employees, not the consumer for lagging sales and replace them.
Frankly I feel an old fashioned letter writing campaign (as in actual, physical letters) would do more good. Say, to Tom Kirby about why you're not buying their stuff, or to Jervis Johnson or the Rules Team why you don't like the game, ect.
I've sent in a letter about the Sisters codex detailing a LOT of fixes for them and plan to do another one for more codex related stuff once I have the new rules in hand to work off of. And I plan to do more until they legally prevent my from doing so, or until I run out of stuff to point out and go "that is a problem". Which ever comes first.
So yeah, pick your poison and start badgering them with letters. I can even give you the address if you're willing to give it a go:
[Recipient] Willow Road Lenton Nottingham NG7 2WS
Huh, wait? Oh, no sorry Zion wasn't trying to accuse you of anything, more just going off of what you were saying to continue the conversation beyond the separate on that was sort of going
I *will* actually have to consider writing that letter, now that I've taken the LE book out of its protective case I'm feeling more frustration than earlier.
Swastakowey wrote: Unless your alone with no gaming friends then its pretty easy to just pool together for a rule set. After many years of gaming I have only ever had one main rule book. Just one, the rest where communal. There are many ways of getting your hands on one rule book. Only need one for a group of people to play. Not one per person.
So other than buying a new book, whats the downfall?
What so now you have to be in a fething syndicate just to afford Games Workshop? There is no "besides" the rule books are the whole point. You have to buy a new book, sooner or later you'll have to buy a new codex, then perhaps a supplement, then another new rule book. Many people feel they are too expensive and not good value.
Swastakowey wrote: Unless your alone with no gaming friends then its pretty easy to just pool together for a rule set. After many years of gaming I have only ever had one main rule book. Just one, the rest where communal. There are many ways of getting your hands on one rule book. Only need one for a group of people to play. Not one per person.
So other than buying a new book, whats the downfall?
What so now you have to be in a fething syndicate just to afford Games Workshop? There is no "besides" the rule books are the whole point. You have to buy a new book, sooner or later you'll have to buy a new codex, then perhaps a supplement, then another new rule book. Many people feel they are too expensive and not good value.
If you think its too expensive and not good value, then I personally think its as simple as not buying it.
And no you dont need to be in a large group. I simply put out some ways of going around the cost of a hobby. And the best way of cutting costs is spreading it out.
Unless you hate any edition changes, I dont see what the problem is really. If all you can see is a new book, rather than any improvement in game rules, then maybe you need to look at why you are getting these books. Or simply play an older edition. Im sure if you have people that feel the same way in your area, this will be easy to do. Plus you will never have to buy more books again. Seems like your best solution.
Swastakowey wrote: Unless your alone with no gaming friends then its pretty easy to just pool together for a rule set. After many years of gaming I have only ever had one main rule book. Just one, the rest where communal. There are many ways of getting your hands on one rule book. Only need one for a group of people to play. Not one per person.
So other than buying a new book, whats the downfall?
What so now you have to be in a fething syndicate just to afford Games Workshop? There is no "besides" the rule books are the whole point. You have to buy a new book, sooner or later you'll have to buy a new codex, then perhaps a supplement, then another new rule book. Many people feel they are too expensive and not good value.
If you think its too expensive and not good value, then I personally think its as simple as not buying it.
And no you dont need to be in a large group. I simply put out some ways of going around the cost of a hobby. And the best way of cutting costs is spreading it out.
Unless you hate any edition changes, I dont see what the problem is really. If all you can see is a new book, rather than any improvement in game rules, then maybe you need to look at why you are getting these books. Or simply play an older edition. Im sure if you have people that feel the same way in your area, this will be easy to do. Plus you will never have to buy more books again. Seems like your best solution.
And perhaps you need to stop making these "why don't you just..." and "if you're not happy, perhaps this isn't for you :sadface:" arguments and statements. Regardless of whether they're coming from a place of genuine thought and opinion, or you're deliberately doing it to antagonise, I've seen you say it to enough people across enough threads and get enough responses that you know the likely reaction it'll provoke.
The only bad thing that person said was that they had to buy new rules. Thats it. So either they say this every edition, or they are just complaining for the sake of it.
The only negative is that its come out so soon. (rules are subjective though). So whats so bad besides that one single point that invokes so much anger from you people?
The rules sound great? May not be perfect but now you can at least try stop the eldar player from buffing his troops, at least skimmers cant move an inch, get a save and fight at full efficiency, hull points are rumored to change and so on. So its all pretty decent sounding in my opinion and im just curious as to whats really the big issue besides buying a new book? And that cost can be mitigated in many ways.
Yeah I sorta see where you are coming from.. but just because I could be way worse (it pretty much always can be!) doesnt mean this is good news. I cant bring myself to call this a win when at the end of the day the pricks are releasing another set of rules less than two years after I bought the last one!
I will wait and maybe pick up a mini rulebook when they inevitably release one, but 50 quid isn't "cheap" when I just bloody bought one!
Seriously.. I know there MO by now. They will blatantly release another box set in a few months even if the rumored one is a hoax, and when they do, Ill go halves with a mate and get plenty of great models for cheap, and then we can share the RB.
But 50 nicker for another big book when I recently bought one is not happening, they can kiss my cracker-sack!
Swastakowey wrote: The only bad thing that person said was that they had to buy new rules. Thats it. So either they say this every edition, or they are just complaining for the sake of it.
The only negative is that its come out so soon. (rules are subjective though). So whats so bad besides that one single point that invokes so much anger from you people?
The rules sound great? May not be perfect but now you can at least try stop the eldar player from buffing his troops, at least skimmers cant move an inch, get a save and fight at full efficiency, hull points are rumored to change and so on. So its all pretty decent sounding in my opinion and im just curious as to whats really the big issue besides buying a new book? And that cost can be mitigated in many ways.
It is a significant departure from a pattern of behaviour that's been established since the 80s. It is a departure whose motivation is most simply explained as an attempt to extract more cash out of an ailing customer base to shore up poor financial results which only really happened because of repeated similar abuses of the customer base in the first place.
I'm more interested to see what changes we'll see than annoyed at the ham fisted manipulation, but anyone who feels the opposite way I completely understand where they're coming from.
GW are damned if they do and damned if they don't. I know that I'd personally rather they release a new ruleset if they have one they feel is better than sit on it for two years because people have gotten used to an arbitrary four year cycle.
Nobody has to buy 7th, even people who want to play games of 7th. We'll know every change under the sun once the book is out, because internet, and once DV is updated with a new mini book, that'll be £20 on ebay. £20 every two years on rules is cool with me.
Swastakowey wrote: If you think its too expensive and not good value, then I personally think its as simple as not buying it.
Exactly! Now you've just come around full circle. As I have already said, people who are committed to their army and want to keep playing are being forced out by the price. Thus they are in fact being screwed.
And no you dont need to be in a large group. I simply put out some ways of going around the cost of a hobby. And the best way of cutting costs is spreading it out.
Why should you need to share books? I have loads of book in my house, I even own book shelves, they don't cost that much. Normally if I want a book I go out and buy the book. Then it's my book, I can take it with me to bed, or read it on the toilet, and I don't expect to have a whole gaming group in there with me.
then maybe you need to look at why you are getting these books. Or simply play an older edition. Im sure if you have people that feel the same way in your area, this will be easy to do. Plus you will never have to buy more books again. Seems like your best solution.
It is the best solution. I don't buy books from GW anymore, thankfully I didn't bother buying 6th ed. I don't even play 40k much any more. Most of my friends quit playing years ago because of the prices. I still have my armies though, and I resent that I'm expected to shell out something like £100+ just so I can up to date enough to play some pick up games.
Sadly the best option is the one we're not supposed to talk about, but it shouldn't have to be that way.
Swastakowey wrote: The only bad thing that person said was that they had to buy new rules. Thats it. So either they say this every edition, or they are just complaining for the sake of it.
The only negative is that its come out so soon. (rules are subjective though). So whats so bad besides that one single point that invokes so much anger from you people?
The rules sound great? May not be perfect but now you can at least try stop the eldar player from buffing his troops, at least skimmers cant move an inch, get a save and fight at full efficiency, hull points are rumored to change and so on. So its all pretty decent sounding in my opinion and im just curious as to whats really the big issue besides buying a new book? And that cost can be mitigated in many ways.
It is a significant departure from a pattern of behaviour that's been established since the 80s. It is a departure whose motivation is most simply explained as an attempt to extract more cash out of an ailing customer base to shore up poor financial results which only really happened because of repeated similar abuses of the customer base in the first place.
I'm more interested to see what changes we'll see than annoyed at the ham fisted manipulation, but anyone who feels the opposite way I completely understand where they're coming from.
Oh, and "you people?" Classy.
Very sorry, here "you people" isnt really a bad thing... People say it all the time in my town as a casual grouping of people you are talking to ish kinda thing.
I see where you guys are coming from, but I think in the case of 7th its been blown out of proportion in terms of negativity. For the first time in many releases I see far more potential actually happening than ever before. Not like for example the imperial guard codex which HAD HEAPS of potential, but came out with non of it, this release seems different. It never had potential (we all thought it was gonna be crap) but I think its really turned around and if many rumors hold true it might be a huge benefit rather than a detriment.
I do like that GW has taken everybody's complaints into consideration and dealt with them. There is a bloat of new info?new rules that shows they are paying attention to what the tourny player vs the casual player wants. They are doing their damnedest to appease both sects and IMHO not doing a bad job. It was killing me with the lack of FAQs towards the end of last edition. I agree this is where 40,000 lives or dies....I am on the side of "lives" for sure, love 80% of the new rules so far......
Swastakowey wrote: The only bad thing that person said was that they had to buy new rules. Thats it. So either they say this every edition, or they are just complaining for the sake of it.
The only negative is that its come out so soon. (rules are subjective though). So whats so bad besides that one single point that invokes so much anger from you people?
The rules sound great? May not be perfect but now you can at least try stop the eldar player from buffing his troops, at least skimmers cant move an inch, get a save and fight at full efficiency, hull points are rumored to change and so on. So its all pretty decent sounding in my opinion and im just curious as to whats really the big issue besides buying a new book? And that cost can be mitigated in many ways.
It is a significant departure from a pattern of behaviour that's been established since the 80s. It is a departure whose motivation is most simply explained as an attempt to extract more cash out of an ailing customer base to shore up poor financial results which only really happened because of repeated similar abuses of the customer base in the first place.
I'm more interested to see what changes we'll see than annoyed at the ham fisted manipulation, but anyone who feels the opposite way I completely understand where they're coming from.
Oh, and "you people?" Classy.
Very sorry, here "you people" isnt really a bad thing... People say it all the time in my town as a casual grouping of people you are talking to ish kinda thing.
I see where you guys are coming from, but I think in the case of 7th its been blown out of proportion in terms of negativity. For the first time in many releases I see far more potential actually happening than ever before. Not like for example the imperial guard codex which HAD HEAPS of potential, but came out with non of it, this release seems different. It never had potential (we all thought it was gonna be crap) but I think its really turned around and if many rumors hold true it might be a huge benefit rather than a detriment.
No, "you people" is antagonistic as it is indicative of you're thinking of yourself as separate from the people you're talking with, I'd even say superior if I wanted to be really uncharitable.
You did it again with "you guys." Assuming as you've quoted me you're addressing me, and therefore you're including me in the group of people you're characterising as being angry about a new book, you're flat out wrong. As my only comments I've made ITT should indicate, I'm actually not that bothered and more interested in whether it just makes the game better or not.
Swastakowey wrote: The only bad thing that person said was that they had to buy new rules. Thats it. So either they say this every edition, or they are just complaining for the sake of it.
The problem isn't that you have to buy new rules, the problem is you have to buy new rules AND fluff AND hobby supplement, making the rules 150% more expensive than they need to be.
Swastakowey wrote: The only bad thing that person said was that they had to buy new rules. Thats it. So either they say this every edition, or they are just complaining for the sake of it.
The problem isn't that you have to buy new rules, the problem is you have to buy new rules AND fluff AND hobby supplement, making the rules 150% more expensive than they need to be.
True, but at least you no longer have to carry all three if you ever want to use it. Ill probably just leave the other parts out to gather dust as I use the now smaller and (hopefully) better book for rules.
But they have always sold rules + fluff + hobby supplement havent they? Just this time they added expansions in too so even if it werent separate it would still be more expensive. Will this book be full cover like the latest codices? If so then yea it was probably gonna be more expensive regardless.
I will note I hate the hardback full colour Codices. Needless and expensive, but at least the rule book actually has advantages to make it more pricey.
Azreal: I said you guys because I thought you people was offensive when you pointed that out... Im fairly sure I have read Americans and the like saying you guys, just thought it was a better phrase to use...
Swastakowey wrote: The only bad thing that person said was that they had to buy new rules. Thats it. So either they say this every edition, or they are just complaining for the sake of it.
The problem isn't that you have to buy new rules, the problem is you have to buy new rules AND fluff AND hobby supplement, making the rules 150% more expensive than they need to be.
Yeah exactly. If they sold the fething mini-rulebook separately for a tenner I would happily go out and buy it.
Well.. maybe not happily. A little bit begrudgingly.
It isn't the phrase itself, it is what it connotes. Saying "you whatevers" is just suggesting that you're positioning yourself on some sort of moral high ground and mentally separating yourself from everyone else. This sort of language may antagonise.
It isn't the phrase itself, it is what it connotes. Saying "you whatevers" is just suggesting that you're positioning yourself on some sort of moral high ground and mentally separating yourself from everyone else. This sort of language may antagonise.
Not where I am. Its pretty common to say you people, or you guys, or you girls, you kids etc. Gets said all the time at work and with friends. I mean, saying something "like you fools" is something offensive, but not really you people or you guys... I can kinda see what you mean maybe? ish? But if its really that big of a deal to some people ill simply just say something else instead.
Swastakowey wrote: But they have always sold rules + fluff + hobby supplement havent they?
The difference is 1st and 2nd edition were complete rule sets. They contained all the rules and fluff, including the rules for every unit in every army. 2nd edition managed to do this in less than 200 pages (and still had room for evey metal pages). Those books were literally crammed with stuff. The codex books were expansions which had more detail and contained rules for some of the newer releases, but you didn't need them (especially since most of the rules were in WD or came in the box with the unit). And they only cost £10 each!
Since 4th edition however they don't even try and include the rules for the armies, because they'd rather sell you those in a codex. Codex is no longer optional but essential. They don't even include and basic list of weapon stats. The rule book has way way less content now, but for some reason it's 300 pages longer? And they want £50 for it. It doesn't seem that long ago you could buy the whole box set with two starter armies for £50.
It isn't the phrase itself, it is what it connotes. Saying "you whatevers" is just suggesting that you're positioning yourself on some sort of moral high ground and mentally separating yourself from everyone else. This sort of language may antagonise.
I understand you completely. "You people" implies that I am just "one of those people", those malcontent people who are all the same, rather than an individual with my own opinions. Even if a large number of other people feel the same way on this one issue.
It isn't the phrase itself, it is what it connotes. Saying "you whatevers" is just suggesting that you're positioning yourself on some sort of moral high ground and mentally separating yourself from everyone else. This sort of language may antagonise.
Not where I am. Its pretty common to say you people, or you guys, or you girls, you kids etc. Gets said all the time at work and with friends. I mean, saying something "like you fools" is something offensive, but not really you people or you guys... I can kinda see what you mean maybe? ish? But if its really that big of a deal to some people ill simply just say something else instead.
Ok, go into work tomorrow, begin the day by approaching a group of your colleagues and saying something like "what is the matter with you people?" Let me know how it goes!
Oooh, or better yet, find the biggest, angriest Maori you can, and say it to him!
As a phrase, regardless of whether you think it does or not, it compartmentalises the addressed party while simultaneously implying you're removing yourself from whatever group you think you're addressing.
But I'm done educating you, my point was, and remains, whether you sincerely believe it or not, you repeatedly make very similar arguments which you should have figured out tend to provoke a certain response, and as such, if you continue to do so, then, really, all you're doing is flame baiting and that's against forum rules.
It isn't the phrase itself, it is what it connotes. Saying "you whatevers" is just suggesting that you're positioning yourself on some sort of moral high ground and mentally separating yourself from everyone else. This sort of language may antagonise.
Not where I am. Its pretty common to say you people, or you guys, or you girls, you kids etc. Gets said all the time at work and with friends. I mean, saying something "like you fools" is something offensive, but not really you people or you guys... I can kinda see what you mean maybe? ish? But if its really that big of a deal to some people ill simply just say something else instead.
Ok, go into work tomorrow, begin the day by approaching a group of your colleagues and saying something like "what is the matter with you people?" Let me know how it goes!
Oooh, or better yet, find the biggest, angriest Maori you can, and say it to him!
As a phrase, regardless of whether you think it does or not, it compartmentalises the addressed party while simultaneously implying you're removing yourself from whatever group you think you're addressing.
But I'm done educating you, my point was, and remains, whether you sincerely believe it or not, you repeatedly make very similar arguments which you should have figured out tend to provoke a certain response, and as such, if you continue to do so, then, really, all you're doing is flame baiting and that's against forum rules.
Think what you want, but if you are reading things on the internet just remember to read it in an emotionless way. You may not be antagonized so much. I only have one boss so not much point saying you something to him. But I already say that to plenty of the workers. I also had a Maori mother, and I talk to my family like anybody else. haven't been beaten yet.
Swastakowey wrote: But they have always sold rules + fluff + hobby supplement havent they?
The difference is 1st and 2nd edition were complete rule sets. They contained all the rules and fluff, including the rules for every unit in every army. 2nd edition managed to do this in less than 200 pages (and still had room for evey metal pages). Those books were literally crammed with stuff. The codex books were expansions which had more detail and contained rules for some of the newer releases, but you didn't need them (especially since most of the rules were in WD or came in the box with the unit).
Since 4th edition however they don't even try and include the rules for the armies, because they'd rather sell you those in a codex. Codex is no longer optional but essential. They don't even include and basic list of weapon stats. The rule book has way way less content now, but for some reason it's 300 pages longer? And they want £50 for it. It doesn't seem that long ago you could buy the whole box set with two starter armies for £50.
I see, well as you have guessed I havent been playing for that long haha, well yea I see your point there. Well in that case, it may not be the best, but its better than 6th edition. In my opinion.
I'm not in the least bit antagonised, but the language people choose to use speaks volumes about what they really think about the people they're talking to.
azreal13 wrote: I'm not in the least bit antagonised, but the language people choose to use speaks volumes about what they really think about the people they're talking to.
This has been most insightful.
You are welcome then. Always happy to help people find insight.
Smacks wrote: The difference is 1st and 2nd edition were complete rule sets. They contained all the rules and fluff, including the rules for every unit in every army. 2nd edition managed to do this in less than 200 pages (and still had room for evey metal pages). Those books were literally crammed with stuff. The codex books were expansions which had more detail and contained rules for some of the newer releases, but you didn't need them (especially since most of the rules were in WD or came in the box with the unit). And they only cost £10 each!
Just to play devils advocate about that, the codexes used to be a fair bit thinner too, especially at the start of 2nd edition.
That said I would LOVE if they gave EVERY army an update in the core rulebook and then released updates for them as codexes (with new models and the like) a bit down the road (say, starting once a quarter starting after 6 months or so when we start frothing at the bit for new releases).
There, now no army is lagged, all they really had to do was copy and past the old codex rules into the new book, slap in the errattas maybe tweak a rule or two (and some points costs) they'd make anyways with the new codex and everyone is happy/happier/less grouchy/whatever. And yes, still release the errattas for anyone who doesn't just want to have to use that part of the rulebook all the time too (with the split books it could be the 4th book, hell we could even call it "The Astronomican" as a nod to the old black books).
Add it to my list of "things I would do differently" I guess. Right up there with releasing new units in the WD months in advance to give time for player testing and feedback before the final version. This way the WD is useful the models are being sold instead of waiting for the new codex and everyone is happy. Then the codex release can focus on updating old kits and adjusting rules/points costs.
Smacks wrote: The difference is 1st and 2nd edition were complete rule sets. They contained all the rules and fluff, including the rules for every unit in every army. 2nd edition managed to do this in less than 200 pages (and still had room for evey metal pages). Those books were literally crammed with stuff. The codex books were expansions which had more detail and contained rules for some of the newer releases, but you didn't need them (especially since most of the rules were in WD or came in the box with the unit). And they only cost £10 each!
Just to play devils advocate about that, the codexes used to be a fair bit thinner too, especially at the start of 2nd edition.
That said I would LOVE if they gave EVERY army an update in the core rulebook and then released updates for them as codexes (with new models and the like) a bit down the road (say, starting once a quarter starting after 6 months or so when we start frothing at the bit for new releases).
There, now no army is lagged, all they really had to do was copy and past the old codex rules into the new book, slap in the errattas maybe tweak a rule or two (and some points costs) they'd make anyways with the new codex and everyone is happy/happier/less grouchy/whatever. And yes, still release the errattas for anyone who doesn't just want to have to use that part of the rulebook all the time too (with the split books it could be the 4th book, hell we could even call it "The Astronomican" as a nod to the old black books).
Add it to my list of "things I would do differently" I guess. Right up there with releasing new units in the WD months in advance to give time for player testing and feedback before the final version. This way the WD is useful the models are being sold instead of waiting for the new codex and everyone is happy. Then the codex release can focus on updating old kits and adjusting rules/points costs.
Yeah, I think that will do wonders for GW, since it is a common release schedule most gaming companies (like PP and Corvus Belli). Granted I still think that they will have to make you pay (where as you really do not need the expansion since you can get info from it with the miniatures you get or online officially), but I think that this would be a great tactic for Games Workshop to if everyone gets something and works out more as an expansion than a full on codex.
2nd Ed Codices were not thin. I think you're thinking of 3rd Ed books, which essentially removed the lengthy fluff sections and had the army list start almost immediately. That only really changed when they need to introduce new things (Tau, 'Crons) and with the 3.5 Chaos Codex.
H.B.M.C. wrote: 2nd Ed Codices were not thin. I think you're thinking of 3rd Ed books, which essentially removed the lengthy fluff sections and had the army list start almost immediately. That only really changed when they need to introduce new things (Tau, 'Crons) and with the 3.5 Chaos Codex.
No, I mean at the start of 2nd edition there was a lot less of everything and that's why it all fit into a sub-200 page book so easily. I feel that even sans the fluff that such a thing would end up being a bit thicker now (more armies than the start of 2nd for one).
H.B.M.C. wrote: 2nd Ed Codices were not thin. I think you're thinking of 3rd Ed books, which essentially removed the lengthy fluff sections and had the army list start almost immediately. That only really changed when they need to introduce new things (Tau, 'Crons) and with the 3.5 Chaos Codex.
No, I mean at the start of 2nd edition there was a lot less of everything and that's why it all fit into a sub-200 page book so easily. I feel that even sans the fluff that such a thing would end up being a bit thicker now (more armies than the start of 2nd for one).
Oh yeah completely, there was way less stuff back then, Tau and Necrons weren't in either (although squats and ad-mech were). I don't really want to get into the whole "everything was better before". Codex imperials wasn't a thick book, it was about the same thickness as a White Dwarf, but they still got all the major units in there. With a book the size of the BRB they could easily fit all the modern stuff in there. Then it might actually be worth £50.
Sorry. It's 2014. I'm not going to give them a treat and rub their belly because they briefly spoke about their new product on YouTube.
I won't be buying into 7th Edition, either. I fully support a business' right to make money off its products, but I also support a consumer's right to not buy those products when they recognize a terrible deal.
But 50 nicker for another big book when I recently bought one is not happening, they can kiss my cracker-sack!
Eloquently put my good sir, I completely agree with your sentiment.
ClockWorkZion wrote:No, I mean at the start of 2nd edition there was a lot less of everything and that's why it all fit into a sub-200 page book so easily. I feel that even sans the fluff that such a thing would end up being a bit thicker now (more armies than the start of 2nd for one).
I think there was actually a lot more to the rules in 2nd edition. In terms of mechanics it was a more complex game (grenade throwing, turrets blowing off tanks and landing on people etc.), although somehow a great deal easier to grasp than today's bloated mess of special rules and abstractions.
The thing is, there will be a mini rule book in a few months. DV is getting updated with a new rule book, which GW have already said, which will be on eBay days after the release. No one HAS to buy the £50 three part slip case one even if they want to. Personally I do think 2 years is quite short, but I would rather they take feedback and address the problems, which is what a lot of people have been asking for, rather than wait longer just so people can keep using the rules they have paid for. What is going to lose more players? Not addressing problems, or a new rule book after 2 years?
I haven't weighed in on this yet so what the hell.
Yes it is a step in the right direction to be able to bring a smaller than 600 page book to every game, but I'd still have to buy the other two books with it which would probably never see any use at all. Not many brownie points there.
The fact that they are talking about it, even if they aren't actually promoting any meaningful discussion between them and their fans, is again worth some points. Some.
Neither of those things are bad by GW's standards, and for that they deserve a cookie. But by the standards of the industry both are pretty laughable, for that they do not deserve my money.
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Steve steveson wrote: The thing is, there will be a mini rule book in a few months. DV is getting updated with a new rule book, which GW have already said, which will be on eBay days after the release. No one HAS to buy the £50 three part slip case one even if they want to. Personally I do think 2 years is quite short, but I would rather they take feedback and address the problems, which is what a lot of people have been asking for, rather than wait longer just so people can keep using the rules they have paid for. What is going to lose more players? Not addressing problems, or a new rule book after 2 years?
The problem with this is that you are literally saying 'it's not that expensive, just use ebay'.
That holds true for everything in existence, of course you can get stuff cheap 2nd hand, but what GW are selling is not cheap.
No, I'm saying that here are options other than the £50 book, including the mini book from DV and waiting for the book of just the rules, which will almost certainly come out soon. Of course the first book available is the most expensive, such is the way with day one purchasing. Many companies do the same.
What exactly are all the people saying "at least you don't have to bring 600 pages with you to a game" smoking? Mini rulebooks have been a thing for TEN YEARS now. Count them. Ten. (Allegedly) dropping them in favour of a large format hardcover is a step back, not something to praise.
Who said they are dropping the mini book? It says in the last white dwarf that DV will come with an updated rule book, which is where the mini book has always come from.
The rumours are that the mini book that'll go in the starter set is incomplete, so you'll probably need to buy the big book anyway.
Which is exactly what they did with their last starter set release (The Hobbit), and fits in with the cash grabbing.
I really hope not, as I've always preferred the mini books and have bought them with starter sets since they existed (I think I've got 4th, 5th and 6th on my book case).
If it is an incomplete book, then I'll be holding on until they launch the 7th Ed rules only book.
Steve steveson wrote: The thing is, there will be a mini rule book in a few months. DV is getting updated with a new rule book, which GW have already said, which will be on eBay days after the release. No one HAS to buy the £50 three part slip case one even if they want to. Personally I do think 2 years is quite short, but I would rather they take feedback and address the problems, which is what a lot of people have been asking for, rather than wait longer just so people can keep using the rules they have paid for. What is going to lose more players? Not addressing problems, or a new rule book after 2 years?
So you're saying that you can buy it cheaper through a third party? Who'da thunk it!
The part you're missing Steve is that a lot of us don't trust GW. We just bought the rules for this game - they're not even two years old, and some elements of them aren't even a year old - and here we are with another complete set of rules they expect us to buy. How long then until the next one? Another (almost) 2 years? No. Sorry. That's too expensive for such frequent revisions.
As I've said in this thread already, I held off for two editions waiting for a set of rules that I liked (or at least had as few issues as possible) before taking the plunge and re-entering 40K. GW have subsequently done everything in their power to ruin things with Dataslate DLC, but at its core I was happy with 6th Ed and was satisfied enough to play it and support it. And now, less than two years, they're asking me to change everything. And it's not for the betterment of the game. It's because new editions drive sales, and they want to make their full year sales look good because their half-year sales were bad.
Cynical cash grabs combined with short-time edition changes = I'm not buying. Not the big 3 books. Not the mini rulebook. Not from eBay.
troa wrote: Because it's a step in the right direction, perhaps, Blacksails? Once you are at a "GW is evil, they are terrible!" mindset then nothing they do is worth acknowledging as positive, and that's where you're at. I'd encourage you to find a new hobby, since you hate GW that much. You won't be satisfied until EVERYTHING you think is wrong is fixed to your liking, and that will never happen.
No, at the moment its at best a fluke, if we come back in two years and GW is contuining to improve customer relations with improved quality of their Products in this case the rules, then we have a step in the right direction...
Steve steveson wrote: The thing is, there will be a mini rule book in a few months. DV is getting updated with a new rule book, which GW have already said, which will be on eBay days after the release. No one HAS to buy the £50 three part slip case one even if they want to. Personally I do think 2 years is quite short, but I would rather they take feedback and address the problems, which is what a lot of people have been asking for, rather than wait longer just so people can keep using the rules they have paid for. What is going to lose more players? Not addressing problems, or a new rule book after 2 years?
Just because there are alternatives doesn't change the facts. They're still selling a $85 book that outdated a book from 2 years ago. And you'll have to pay for that information in some way shape or form, be it digital, physical or mini alternative. Even if you do go with the mini book, DV is a $100 investment that is less likely to make it's money back. Most have bought their DV or DV models so the resale has dropped down significantly. The result is still an investment of money to use your models again.
If the mini rulebook to be included in DV down the line is a full rulebook, that would mean GW losing £50 a time when someone picks it up on ebay, as now. I personally would expect them to find a way to avoid that this time round, the most obvious way being the mini rulebook will be just a 'quick start' set of rules. So if the main rulebook isn't available unbundled from the fluff and hobby stuff, £50 will be the only way.
Either way, this will be the first rules edition for either 40K or WHFB I haven't bought since 1990. It is a gouge too far, and I speak as someone whose WD and other GW codex / rulebook collection (not including novels) would be 7 and a half feet tall all stacked up, the height of a Space Marine.
Pacific wrote: I think there was actually a lot more to the rules in 2nd edition. In terms of mechanics it was a more complex game (grenade throwing, turrets blowing off tanks and landing on people etc.), although somehow a great deal easier to grasp than today's bloated mess of special rules and abstractions.
The point was about putting codexes into the core rulebook, not the size of the rulebook itself honestly.
So, what GW has done is make us buy another $80+ rulebook after just 2 years of buying the last one and they deserve brownie points just because they broke it up into three parts? Oh, wow, I am so impressed. What Games Workshop has accomplished is an unprecedented show of care for the customer and innovation in the industry.
What's that? They are going to make you buy all three parts? Well, it would seem that Games Workshop has done very little then. Make another thread if the rules part is available as as standalone that isn't more than $30 so then we can pat them on the back.
Ok, we all play lots of games I'm sure. So explain to me why a game needs to have a 7th edition? and why is it imperative to play the most current edition?
Is it so hard to come up with a set of rules for an imaginary future that isn't broken the first time or maybe by the 3rd or 4th try? It has nothing to do with making a good product, GW does not care if the product is good or bad, better if it looks like swiss cheese.
Magic has had release after release of new content and cards that work in the original system, which has been tweeked over the years to "fix" things. GW does not care if they fix anything, better if it is broken so "we" buy more stuff over and over again.
Packaging all the stuff in a nice 3 book set so I only have to take one with me to play is a great idea, but I want the fluff since it is the cornerstone of the game and I must take it as well. They have lost any sense of what the customer wants or needs to enjoy the game.
Do they care? No, it's all about making money, which is fine until you start forcing your customer to buy useless crap because you as a company screwed the pooch for to many years with bad planning.
What do we want? Content! New armies, new missions, new models/rules for existing armies (that have been play tested!). I don't want to rebuild my force every time a new book comes out, I want to add to it. Their idea of adding to it is replacing most of it since model X or army Y is crap in the new edition until it's codex comes out.
Steve steveson wrote: DV is getting updated with a new rule book, which GW have already said, which will be on eBay days after the release.
...
What is going to lose more players? Not addressing problems, or a new rule book after 2 years?
Respectfully, I tried to pick up a mini rule book during late-5th and they were like gold dust. I only found one, and the person selling it wanted more than the BRB for it (probably why it was the last one), maybe I was bit unlucky.
I think there are two separate issues here. The first is GW fixing problems with the rules. That is unquestionably a good thing that all companies should do. But a lot companies fix and correct rules for free. You've paid for the models and the game, you should at very least be able to play it. GW on the other hand haven't really change much since 4th edition. The difference between 4th and 6th could probably be covered in an errata. That is essentially what it is, but they re-bundle it with all the old fluff that hasn't changed since 2nd edition, and want to charge £50 for it!
That brings me to the second issue, which is their money spinning. That is what is loosing players in their droves. It's bad enough the models being expensive, but at least they are good quality, they hold their value well. The rules situation is abysmal in comparison. It isn't even the full rules anyway, because they hold most of it back to sell as codex books. The codex book system is pure idiocy now too. It used to make sense when the core game was built to last but needed updates for the armies. But now when editions aren't even lasting two years, having books straddling editions of rules they were never intended for, doesn't make for a better game. It's just a way for them to take something that used to be this:
Spoiler:
And pad it out it into ~30 odd hardbacks, then charge more for each than the whole game used to cost.
Pacific wrote: I think there was actually a lot more to the rules in 2nd edition. In terms of mechanics it was a more complex game (grenade throwing, turrets blowing off tanks and landing on people etc.), although somehow a great deal easier to grasp than today's bloated mess of special rules and abstractions.
The point was about putting codexes into the core rulebook, not the size of the rulebook itself honestly.
I wish they would remove that face-palming orkmoticon, it always manages to come across as offensive even though I'm sure from your posting habits that that wasn't your intent.
Ian Sturrock wrote: £50 is a pretty reasonable price for three volumes in a slipcase, in my opinion. Although I only really need the rules, and will switch my pre-order to a second copy of DV if an updated DV is available within a few days of the new rulebook...
The new DV set will only be containing partial rules, to introduce players to the system. Thus forcing all to buy the money-grabbing plasti-paper mess that will be 7th.
troa wrote: Because it's a step in the right direction, perhaps, Blacksails? Once you are at a "GW is evil, they are terrible!" mindset then nothing they do is worth acknowledging as positive, and that's where you're at. I'd encourage you to find a new hobby, since you hate GW that much. You won't be satisfied until EVERYTHING you think is wrong is fixed to your liking, and that will never happen.
Sure, its a step in the right direction, but hardly deserving of praise. I've never been of the mindset to say 'good job' to doing the bare minimum.
I'll say something positive about GW when they deserve it.
The 'hobby' is more than GW, and I already play other games.
Further, I'll be satisfied much before 'everything' if fixed to 'my' liking. I'll be satisfied when they start attaining basic levels of competency in game design, customer interaction, and pricing as the competitors. Not unreasonable at all.
+1.
Until GW has done something worthy of praise, they should not receive any.
Until GW is worth the money, they should not receive any.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I think it's a logical leap to say "Currency inflation is only 1%, so the remaining price increase is solely for profit!!!" I think it's to increase revenue, which may be necessary in the face of increasing costs.
I don't think it is increasing costs. I think it is more the rapidly declining customer base and the need to make those that remain make up for the stupidity that is costing GW so many of their long term customers at this point.
Thus why you got a 70% increase on Stormtroopers/Scions not to long ago.
azreal13 wrote:I'll also mention that pictures of this weeks WDW, which were photos of another users own personal copy of the mag, that I'd rehosted on Photobucket were taken down today at someone's (presumably a GW employee) request for copyright violation.
So that's time and money wasted to find the pics and inform Photobucket, but not only that, those pics were being used solely to generate interest in their product. The Internet being what it is, they're out there now, so it was a futile exercise, whose objective seems to have been, once again, to handicap people trying to promote GW's products.
It's so ridiculous for any company to spend money on stopping people from talking about your product. They shouldn't be putting in copyright challenges for people's pictures of magazines, they should be leaking them themselves!
There's nothing praiseworthy in the 7th ed release.
They invalidated people's rulebook purchases after two years at most. There are people who bought a rulebook a few months ago. People quit over crap like this.
They are providing only a more expensive way of transitioning to the new edition. Compare this to Malifaux 2nd Edition where they made a $15 rules manual you could get. It's like the 6th edition mini-rulebook from DV but you can just buy it. For $15.
TheCustomLime wrote: So, what GW has done is make us buy another $80+ rulebook after just 2 years of buying the last one and they deserve brownie points just because they broke it up into three parts? Oh, wow, I am so impressed. What Games Workshop has accomplished is an unprecedented show of care for the customer and innovation in the industry.
What's that? They are going to make you buy all three parts? Well, it would seem that Games Workshop has done very little then. Make another thread if the rules part is available as as standalone that isn't more than $30 so then we can pat them on the back.
Exactly. Here's an example of just how good GW is versus what's out there:
Privateer Press Warmachine MkII rules, released Oct 2009, $45 hardback, still being used today and a very well-written ruleset (not about the theme, just the ruleset)
GW:
Fifth Edition Rules available since July 2008. Price of $50.
Sixth Edition Rules available in June 2012: $75
Seventh Edition Rules available May 2014: $85
So, in the time you bought 1 very well-written rulebook for $45 from PP, you have spent $210 for a bunch of hack job poorly written junk from GW.
At this point, the 40k ruleset should be absolutely tight and well-written, but it is not. Why? Because the designers remaining at GW aren't competent - period. They are some of the worst in the business. When PP can get a rock-solid ruleset worked out in 6 years and three editions, while GW has 25 years with 40k and 7 editions and the game is STILL a complete and utter mess, there is no excuse anymore - much less having the nerve to charge a premium because of their self-inflated egos and hubris in thinking they are the best in the hobby at it. They aren't. They are actually the worst now, and it appears, month after month, more people are waking up to this fact and moving on.
Sorry, but I am having a hard time justifying anything GW nowadays. The game has turned into complete junk, their designers are utterly incompetent, and they are turning the game into a amalgamation of utter nonsense with LoWs, D-Weapons, Unbound armies and now whole hog Daemon summoning. 40k has turned into a complete embarrassment of the hobby, to be quite honest.
In the last six months, I have played games of Warmahordes, Bolt Action, Flames of War, Infinity, Dropzone Commader, Hell Dorado and a few games of 40k. Without a doubt, 40k was the WORST of all those games when it comes to the fun of the experience. That says a lot to me when they are pricing themselves as better than all the other games in the market today.
Personally, I believe 7th edition, from everything I have been reading and hearing, is going to be the edition that kills 40k.
The only good thing I will say about GW at this point is thanks to their insane price increase policies, I have netted over $4 grand on ebay in the last month alone as I have sold over more than twenty years of collecting GW stuff and I am only through half of my GW stuff at this point. I was saving my 40k Eldar and Space Marines, but at this point I am even considering divesting myself of GW altogether. Nothing about 7th edition has made me feel there is going to be a future with GW anymore, so I am feeling I might as well unload everything while there is still demand for it.
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Big P wrote: But the whole point of GW is to release rules to get in a nice stock of cash every few years, dont kid its any other reason.
In a few years another 40k will be along... then another, and another...
At this point, speaking strictly from a business standpoint, I would bet against that last line. I personally believe, from the myriad of signs in the last six months, that GW is actually in a LOT of trouble and we are going to witness a very hard crash within the next two years. I think we are seeing the swan years of GW, just like the last two years of TSR. I am honestly of the opinion that GW may not even be here to release an 8th edition in two years.
Big P wrote: But the whole point of GW is to release rules to get in a nice stock of cash every few years, dont kid its any other reason.
In a few years another 40k will be along... then another, and another...
I can't imagine it lasting another 2 editions, well unless they both follow in 2 year sets (or 1 year) but 100 dollars for a book? I have never seen a book cost that much, and yet become utterly worthless in a few years time.
Because really, only the first 2 editions seem to be worth anything these days (especially the first) 3-6 aren't worth the paper they're printed on anymore.
I've never seen another game company charge so much for their books and have them become useless so quickly.
I want to play 40k but these rules, they're not fun, the money is too much, figures aren't worth that much money.
They're not.
Exactly. Here's an example of just how good GW is versus what's out there:
Privateer Press Warmachine MkII rules, released Oct 2009, $45 hardback, still being used today and a very well-written ruleset (not about the theme, just the ruleset)
GW:
Fifth Edition Rules available since July 2008. Price of $50.
Sixth Edition Rules available in June 2012: $75
Seventh Edition Rules available May 2014: $85
So, in the time you bought 1 very well-written rulebook for $45 from PP, you have spent $210 for a bunch of hack job poorly written junk from GW.
Very interesting comparison there. I confess that I've been quite hard on PP fans in the past for the rather high price-per-model, but when you take into account the amount spent on rulebooks it's positively a bargain compared to GW.
Don't forget with Warmachine all the additional books too.
You have Warmachine Prime and each of the Faction books.
Warmachine: Mercenaries
Warmachine: Wrath
Warmachine: Colossals
Warmachine: Convergence of Cyriss
Warmachine: Vengeance.
Plus that is only half of the game. You also have Hordes.
Hordes: Primal and all the Faction ones
Hordes: Minions
Hordes: Domination
Hordes: Gargantuans.
Hordes: The New one that is out soon.
So Warmachine also has a damn tonne of books. But they can be allowed this because everything except Primal and Prime contain only units and fluff. The models come with cards and the warroom app makes them very cheap.
But don't be mistaken that the books are cheaper overall.
Exactly. Here's an example of just how good GW is versus what's out there:
Privateer Press Warmachine MkII rules, released Oct 2009, $45 hardback, still being used today and a very well-written ruleset (not about the theme, just the ruleset)
GW:
Fifth Edition Rules available since July 2008. Price of $50.
Sixth Edition Rules available in June 2012: $75
Seventh Edition Rules available May 2014: $85
So, in the time you bought 1 very well-written rulebook for $45 from PP, you have spent $210 for a bunch of hack job poorly written junk from GW.
Very interesting comparison there. I confess that I've been quite hard on PP fans in the past for the rather high price-per-model, but when you take into account the amount spent on rulebooks it's positively a bargain compared to GW.
yeah but on average PP stuff is far cheaper and the game is far better.
If 40K was top notch, then the prices could maybe be reasonable (though that's a long stretch) but 40K has terrible, unbalanced, insane rules and PP has impressed me.
Starting Minions and its been a lot of fun, even if I haven't caught on yet.
It isn't the phrase itself, it is what it connotes. Saying "you whatevers" is just suggesting that you're positioning yourself on some sort of moral high ground and mentally separating yourself from everyone else. This sort of language may antagonise.
Then how IS he supposed to say it? Because he clearly does have a different opinion than others, and he's clearly separating himself from them. Having a different opinion is hardly claiming some sort of moral high ground.
You're taking it as an attack; he's just saying he thinks differently than you do. Please tell us all how you'd prefer he set himself and those with his opinion separate from you and those with your opinion without being... antagonistic, as you say. Because from my viewpoint (a WFB player whose sole interest in your debate is how 40K 7th will affect GW and demonstrate how FB 9th will likely be treated... and received) that antagonism is a bit difficult to see.
It isn't the phrase itself, it is what it connotes. Saying "you whatevers" is just suggesting that you're positioning yourself on some sort of moral high ground and mentally separating yourself from everyone else. This sort of language may antagonise.
Then how IS he supposed to say it? Because he clearly does have a different opinion than others, and he's clearly separating himself from them. Having a different opinion is hardly claiming some sort of moral high ground.
You're taking it as an attack; he's just saying he thinks differently than you do. Please tell us all how you'd prefer he set himself and those with his opinion separate from you and those with your opinion without being... antagonistic, as you say. Because from my viewpoint (a WFB player whose sole interest in your debate is how 40K 7th will affect GW and demonstrate how FB 9th will likely be treated... and received) that antagonism is a bit difficult to see.
Imagine if it was said to a black person: "I don't know what the problem is with 'you people' ". It would be like wait, wtf people do you mean? "You know... your sort". Does it sound bigoted enough for you then?
Frankly, I'm not here to provide an English lesson, and there are literally so many ways to express what you're asking it could turn into that "nose joke" scene from Roxanne, and I'm sure you don't want this to end with me punching you in the face.
It isn't the phrase itself, it is what it connotes. Saying "you whatevers" is just suggesting that you're positioning yourself on some sort of moral high ground and mentally separating yourself from everyone else. This sort of language may antagonise.
Then how IS he supposed to say it? Because he clearly does have a different opinion than others, and he's clearly separating himself from them. Having a different opinion is hardly claiming some sort of moral high ground.
You're taking it as an attack; he's just saying he thinks differently than you do. Please tell us all how you'd prefer he set himself and those with his opinion separate from you and those with your opinion without being... antagonistic, as you say. Because from my viewpoint (a WFB player whose sole interest in your debate is how 40K 7th will affect GW and demonstrate how FB 9th will likely be treated... and received) that antagonism is a bit difficult to see.
Imagine if it was said to a black person: "I don't know what the problem is with 'you people' ". It would be like wait, wtf people do you mean? "You know... your sort". Does it sound bigoted enough for you then?
It isn't the phrase itself, it is what it connotes. Saying "you whatevers" is just suggesting that you're positioning yourself on some sort of moral high ground and mentally separating yourself from everyone else. This sort of language may antagonise.
Then how IS he supposed to say it? Because he clearly does have a different opinion than others, and he's clearly separating himself from them. Having a different opinion is hardly claiming some sort of moral high ground.
You're taking it as an attack; he's just saying he thinks differently than you do. Please tell us all how you'd prefer he set himself and those with his opinion separate from you and those with your opinion without being... antagonistic, as you say. Because from my viewpoint (a WFB player whose sole interest in your debate is how 40K 7th will affect GW and demonstrate how FB 9th will likely be treated... and received) that antagonism is a bit difficult to see.
Imagine if it was said to a black person: "I don't know what the problem is with 'you people' ". It would be like wait, wtf people do you mean? "You know... your sort". Does it sound bigoted enough for you then?
just came to say thats very out of context.
If there happened to be a black guy with a bunch other people in the middle of the road, and I then said "hey you people, get off the road", I am 100% certain that no one will hang themselves that night because I said you people. I didnt even use "you people" in a negative way at all. Like any phrase or sentence, in some situations it can be taken negatively. Frankly I think hes just being a bit anal and offended over nothing. If I meant to antagonize I would have used the phrase in a very different way. In fact, if he didnt take the time to mention those three words, I can be very sure nobody would have given it a second thought.
Heck I even changed it to you guys (something nobody finds offensive but oddly enough replace guys with people and it is?) blatantly showing that I had meant nothing by the phrase. If it was meant to antagonize I would have not changed how I worded it when used a second time.
It isn't the phrase itself, it is what it connotes. Saying "you whatevers" is just suggesting that you're positioning yourself on some sort of moral high ground and mentally separating yourself from everyone else. This sort of language may antagonise.
Then how IS he supposed to say it? Because he clearly does have a different opinion than others, and he's clearly separating himself from them. Having a different opinion is hardly claiming some sort of moral high ground.
You're taking it as an attack; he's just saying he thinks differently than you do. Please tell us all how you'd prefer he set himself and those with his opinion separate from you and those with your opinion without being... antagonistic, as you say. Because from my viewpoint (a WFB player whose sole interest in your debate is how 40K 7th will affect GW and demonstrate how FB 9th will likely be treated... and received) that antagonism is a bit difficult to see.
Imagine if it was said to a black person: "I don't know what the problem is with 'you people' ". It would be like wait, wtf people do you mean? "You know... your sort". Does it sound bigoted enough for you then?
just came to say thats very out of context.
If there happened to be a black guy with a bunch other people in the middle of the road, and I then said "hey you people, get off the road", I am 100% certain that no one will hang themselves that night because I said you people. I didnt even use "you people" in a negative way at all. Like any phrase or sentence, in some situations it can be taken negatively. Frankly I think hes just being a bit anal and offended over nothing. If I meant to antagonize I would have used the phrase in a very different way. In fact, if he didnt take the time to mention those three words, I can be very sure nobody would have given it a second thought.
Heck I even changed it to you guys (something nobody finds offensive but oddly enough replace guys with people and it is?) blatantly showing that I had meant nothing by the phrase. If it was meant to antagonize I would have not changed how I worded it when used a second time.
So get over it "you people".
Referring to me in the third person in a conversation I'm still active in now?
The faux pas just keep on flowing with you don't they?!
I'd also counsel caution when referring to groups of black people and lynching too, just sayin.
I've explained, twice, why I thought that particular turn of phrase was telling, I stand by it, especially given your history and opinions that I'm already aware of.
Pacific wrote: I think there was actually a lot more to the rules in 2nd edition. In terms of mechanics it was a more complex game (grenade throwing, turrets blowing off tanks and landing on people etc.), although somehow a great deal easier to grasp than today's bloated mess of special rules and abstractions.
The point was about putting codexes into the core rulebook, not the size of the rulebook itself honestly.
I wish they would remove that face-palming orkmoticon, it always manages to come across as offensive even though I'm sure from your posting habits that that wasn't your intent.
I really did slap my forehead because it seemed like people were missing the point about the number of units (which was the central point of that bit) and instead focusing on everything else. Was it meant to be offensive? No. But it was an honest response for people missing the point.
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welshhoppo wrote: It's almost as if GW knew this would happen and have already taken steps to nullify it.
Yeah, it's called "sales are down, fire all the store managers".
welshhoppo wrote: Don't forget with Warmachine all the additional books too.
You have Warmachine Prime and each of the Faction books.
Warmachine: Mercenaries
Warmachine: Wrath
Warmachine: Colossals
Warmachine: Convergence of Cyriss
Warmachine: Vengeance.
Plus that is only half of the game. You also have Hordes.
Hordes: Primal and all the Faction ones
Hordes: Minions
Hordes: Domination
Hordes: Gargantuans.
Hordes: The New one that is out soon.
So Warmachine also has a damn tonne of books. But they can be allowed this because everything except Primal and Prime contain only units and fluff. The models come with cards and the warroom app makes them very cheap.
But don't be mistaken that the books are cheaper overall.
To your point, none of those books are needed to play though because of the cards included in the miniatures. Unlike GW where you are required to AT LEAST buy another $50 codex to get the rules for your units.
Also, I want to point out that PP also does the books releases right. Offering them in both hardcover and softcover. If you get the softcover rules, you only need pay $30 for the rules. I myself prefer the hardcover for the core rules and softcover for the expansions, since you don't need the expansions when you play. That reminds me of another point, with Warmahordes, you only need to carry around the rulebooks to play - none of the expansions. A lot less weight to carry. Whereas with GW, you are now lugging around a small library in addition to your miniatures.
The thing is, what PP does now (with the new books adding and advancing the story and adding units to the game) should be where GW is at. GW has managed to do that with their LOTR-SBG rules. Simply improving the broken areas each release to the rules now are well-balanced and playable. Yet their core games, which have had 25 years (for 40k) and 30 years (for WHFB) they STILL are a complete mess.
Coming around to the subject of the original post, it is not good on GW for splitting into three books and not selling the rules separate. How many times are customers expected to pay for the same 130+ pages of cut-and-paste fluff? Or a 144+ pg miniatures catalog? How can we say good on them for getting us to pay for the same garbage over and over again?
Yeah, it's called "sales are down, fire all the store managers".
Plus... To me, this is padding the financials. Hint. The new rule set will come out before this half of the financials ends.
Kind of funny this version of 6.5 comes out when they need to show their shareholders the GOOD NEWS!!!.... WE BE MAKEN MONNEEEEY.
Heh.... Heh.... Heh.... I'll go and sip on some sweet tea and chew down some Kansas City Style BBQ Ribs and just.... smile on how everything is falling into place.
A word of friendly advise. I suggest you listen to Wayshuba, Sean, Weeble, H.M.B.C. and a few others in a constructive manner. They know what they are talking about in their respective fields.
I give him credit and well as others on how they are trying to explain things as best as they are able within the (possible) constraints they might be in.
I thank them as these people reinforce the information on what I already know and sometimes fills in the gaps that I don't. That is what makes Dakka Great. the transfer of information for the hobby that we enjoy.
Pacific wrote: I think there was actually a lot more to the rules in 2nd edition. In terms of mechanics it was a more complex game (grenade throwing, turrets blowing off tanks and landing on people etc.), although somehow a great deal easier to grasp than today's bloated mess of special rules and abstractions.
The point was about putting codexes into the core rulebook, not the size of the rulebook itself honestly.
I wish they would remove that face-palming orkmoticon, it always manages to come across as offensive even though I'm sure from your posting habits that that wasn't your intent.
I really did slap my forehead because it seemed like people were missing the point about the number of units (which was the central point of that bit) and instead focusing on everything else. Was it meant to be offensive? No. But it was an honest response for people missing the point.
You actually did slap your forehead while reading my post? OK, that's different then and entirely acceptable
My point was meant to be made in a general context, so probably shouldn't have replied to your post directly. i.e. that page count/size isn't always an indicator of quality. 2nd edition managed greater depth with its rule mechanics, less abstraction and more tactical options for the playing of the game as a result, yet needed a much lower page count to convey those to the player.
The whole thing is quite sad really; the fans obviously are so desperate to have something good to feel about playing GW games, and the pickings are so slim that you have to make a big deal about the fact that the price hasn't gone up 100% on the rules (less than 2 years after you had to buy the last lot, less for the expansions) and that the company has deemed you worthy enough to learn about the impending arrival by hosting a little Youtube vid.
welshhoppo wrote: Don't forget with Warmachine all the additional books too.
You have Warmachine Prime and each of the Faction books.
Warmachine: Mercenaries
Warmachine: Wrath
Warmachine: Colossals
Warmachine: Convergence of Cyriss
Warmachine: Vengeance.
Plus that is only half of the game. You also have Hordes.
Hordes: Primal and all the Faction ones
Hordes: Minions
Hordes: Domination
Hordes: Gargantuans.
Hordes: The New one that is out soon.
So Warmachine also has a damn tonne of books. But they can be allowed this because everything except Primal and Prime contain only units and fluff. The models come with cards and the warroom app makes them very cheap.
But don't be mistaken that the books are cheaper overall.
I can't even cipher your point here. If I was to compare this to GW, I would have to point out every codex and army book that is running well over $60 last time I checked and PP's book line still wouldn't even cost near half of GW's collection. Or are you dredging up the same short sighted tired point of "Well if you collect everything PP has it's more expensive than collecting a few things from GW." Because the logic on that breaks in an instant. Let's not forget that PP's books are absolutely not required between their liberal use of online sources and stat cards. GW can't even begin to scratch at that. The codex is mandatory and has to be bought in addition to the models.
I can't even cipher your point here. If I was to compare this to GW, I would have to point out every codex and army book that is running well over $60 last time I checked and PP's book line still wouldn't even cost near half of GW's collection. Or are you dredging up the same short sighted tired point of "Well if you collect everything PP has it's more expensive than collecting a few things from GW." Because the logic on that breaks in an instant. Let's not forget that PP's books are absolutely not required between their liberal use of online sources and stat cards. GW can't even begin to scratch at that. The codex is mandatory and has to be bought in addition to the models.
No, not trying to dredge up the PP versus GW collecting thing. This is simply about the books and PP is just a good example for comparison. The same could be done with Cipher Studios, Corvus Belli, Battlefront, or others. I just chose PP to make the point.
My point was, what PP is doing with their rules and books is what GWshould be doing. Having a solid set of core rules by now (heck, they've had 25 years to get them right) and other books expanding the options of the game, rather than be yet another volume of rules you need and the endless cycle of throw out every book you bought before to replace it with the new shinnies we have come up with, yet again.
welshhoppo wrote: Don't forget with Warmachine all the additional books too.
You have Warmachine Prime and each of the Faction books.
Warmachine: Mercenaries
Warmachine: Wrath
Warmachine: Colossals
Warmachine: Convergence of Cyriss
Warmachine: Vengeance.
Plus that is only half of the game. You also have Hordes.
Hordes: Primal and all the Faction ones
Hordes: Minions
Hordes: Domination
Hordes: Gargantuans.
Hordes: The New one that is out soon.
So Warmachine also has a damn tonne of books. But they can be allowed this because everything except Primal and Prime contain only units and fluff. The models come with cards and the warroom app makes them very cheap.
But don't be mistaken that the books are cheaper overall.
I can't even cipher your point here. If I was to compare this to GW, I would have to point out every codex and army book that is running well over $60 last time I checked and PP's book line still wouldn't even cost near half of GW's collection. Or are you dredging up the same short sighted tired point of "Well if you collect everything PP has it's more expensive than collecting a few things from GW." Because the logic on that breaks in an instant. Let's not forget that PP's books are absolutely not required between their liberal use of online sources and stat cards. GW can't even begin to scratch at that. The codex is mandatory and has to be bought in addition to the models.
My point is, if I was to play my Khador army and want physical copies of every book with Khador rules in them. I would need to buy each of those books in order to play with them. Some people love having a physical copy. In order to play my CSM army, I would need the rulebook and the codex (codices) but I would not need the SM codex (unless I wanted to make myself cry.)
I know the thread regarding 7th edition in the news and rumors forum is a monster, but there is no reason this conversation should not have been in there.
Especially given how OT this conversation has gotten as well, I'm going to lock it now.
)
