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 mattyrm wrote:

But 50 nicker for another big book when I recently bought one is not happening, they can kiss my cracker-sack!

Eloquently put my good sir, I completely agree with your sentiment.

ClockWorkZion wrote:No, I mean at the start of 2nd edition there was a lot less of everything and that's why it all fit into a sub-200 page book so easily. I feel that even sans the fluff that such a thing would end up being a bit thicker now (more armies than the start of 2nd for one).

I think there was actually a lot more to the rules in 2nd edition. In terms of mechanics it was a more complex game (grenade throwing, turrets blowing off tanks and landing on people etc.), although somehow a great deal easier to grasp than today's bloated mess of special rules and abstractions.

The thing is, there will be a mini rule book in a few months. DV is getting updated with a new rule book, which GW have already said, which will be on eBay days after the release. No one HAS to buy the £50 three part slip case one even if they want to. Personally I do think 2 years is quite short, but I would rather they take feedback and address the problems, which is what a lot of people have been asking for, rather than wait longer just so people can keep using the rules they have paid for. What is going to lose more players? Not addressing problems, or a new rule book after 2 years?

I haven't weighed in on this yet so what the hell.

Yes it is a step in the right direction to be able to bring a smaller than 600 page book to every game, but I'd still have to buy the other two books with it which would probably never see any use at all. Not many brownie points there.

The fact that they are talking about it, even if they aren't actually promoting any meaningful discussion between them and their fans, is again worth some points. Some.

Neither of those things are bad by GW's standards, and for that they deserve a cookie. But by the standards of the industry both are pretty laughable, for that they do not deserve my money.


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 Steve steveson wrote:
The thing is, there will be a mini rule book in a few months. DV is getting updated with a new rule book, which GW have already said, which will be on eBay days after the release. No one HAS to buy the £50 three part slip case one even if they want to. Personally I do think 2 years is quite short, but I would rather they take feedback and address the problems, which is what a lot of people have been asking for, rather than wait longer just so people can keep using the rules they have paid for. What is going to lose more players? Not addressing problems, or a new rule book after 2 years?

The problem with this is that you are literally saying 'it's not that expensive, just use ebay'.

That holds true for everything in existence, of course you can get stuff cheap 2nd hand, but what GW are selling is not cheap.

No, I'm saying that here are options other than the £50 book, including the mini book from DV and waiting for the book of just the rules, which will almost certainly come out soon. Of course the first book available is the most expensive, such is the way with day one purchasing. Many companies do the same.

What exactly are all the people saying "at least you don't have to bring 600 pages with you to a game" smoking? Mini rulebooks have been a thing for TEN YEARS now. Count them. Ten. (Allegedly) dropping them in favour of a large format hardcover is a step back, not something to praise.

Who said they are dropping the mini book? It says in the last white dwarf that DV will come with an updated rule book, which is where the mini book has always come from.

The rumours are that the mini book that'll go in the starter set is incomplete, so you'll probably need to buy the big book anyway.

Which is exactly what they did with their last starter set release (The Hobbit), and fits in with the cash grabbing.

I really hope not, as I've always preferred the mini books and have bought them with starter sets since they existed (I think I've got 4th, 5th and 6th on my book case).

If it is an incomplete book, then I'll be holding on until they launch the 7th Ed rules only book.

 Steve steveson wrote:
The thing is, there will be a mini rule book in a few months. DV is getting updated with a new rule book, which GW have already said, which will be on eBay days after the release. No one HAS to buy the £50 three part slip case one even if they want to. Personally I do think 2 years is quite short, but I would rather they take feedback and address the problems, which is what a lot of people have been asking for, rather than wait longer just so people can keep using the rules they have paid for. What is going to lose more players? Not addressing problems, or a new rule book after 2 years?

So you're saying that you can buy it cheaper through a third party? Who'da thunk it!

The part you're missing Steve is that a lot of us don't trust GW. We just bought the rules for this game - they're not even two years old, and some elements of them aren't even a year old - and here we are with another complete set of rules they expect us to buy. How long then until the next one? Another (almost) 2 years? No. Sorry. That's too expensive for such frequent revisions.

As I've said in this thread already, I held off for two editions waiting for a set of rules that I liked (or at least had as few issues as possible) before taking the plunge and re-entering 40K. GW have subsequently done everything in their power to ruin things with Dataslate DLC, but at its core I was happy with 6th Ed and was satisfied enough to play it and support it. And now, less than two years, they're asking me to change everything. And it's not for the betterment of the game. It's because new editions drive sales, and they want to make their full year sales look good because their half-year sales were bad.

Cynical cash grabs combined with short-time edition changes = I'm not buying. Not the big 3 books. Not the mini rulebook. Not from eBay.

The advertising of the product is certainly a step in the right direction, this is what we demanded, after all.

The product itself, that's a different story.

 troa wrote:
Because it's a step in the right direction, perhaps, Blacksails? Once you are at a "GW is evil, they are terrible!" mindset then nothing they do is worth acknowledging as positive, and that's where you're at. I'd encourage you to find a new hobby, since you hate GW that much. You won't be satisfied until EVERYTHING you think is wrong is fixed to your liking, and that will never happen.

No, at the moment its at best a fluke, if we come back in two years and GW is contuining to improve customer relations with improved quality of their Products in this case the rules, then we have a step in the right direction...

 Steve steveson wrote:
The thing is, there will be a mini rule book in a few months. DV is getting updated with a new rule book, which GW have already said, which will be on eBay days after the release. No one HAS to buy the £50 three part slip case one even if they want to. Personally I do think 2 years is quite short, but I would rather they take feedback and address the problems, which is what a lot of people have been asking for, rather than wait longer just so people can keep using the rules they have paid for. What is going to lose more players? Not addressing problems, or a new rule book after 2 years?

Just because there are alternatives doesn't change the facts. They're still selling a $85 book that outdated a book from 2 years ago. And you'll have to pay for that information in some way shape or form, be it digital, physical or mini alternative. Even if you do go with the mini book, DV is a $100 investment that is less likely to make it's money back. Most have bought their DV or DV models so the resale has dropped down significantly. The result is still an investment of money to use your models again.

If the mini rulebook to be included in DV down the line is a full rulebook, that would mean GW losing £50 a time when someone picks it up on ebay, as now. I personally would expect them to find a way to avoid that this time round, the most obvious way being the mini rulebook will be just a 'quick start' set of rules. So if the main rulebook isn't available unbundled from the fluff and hobby stuff, £50 will be the only way.

Either way, this will be the first rules edition for either 40K or WHFB I haven't bought since 1990. It is a gouge too far, and I speak as someone whose WD and other GW codex / rulebook collection (not including novels) would be 7 and a half feet tall all stacked up, the height of a Space Marine.

 Pacific wrote:
I think there was actually a lot more to the rules in 2nd edition. In terms of mechanics it was a more complex game (grenade throwing, turrets blowing off tanks and landing on people etc.), although somehow a great deal easier to grasp than today's bloated mess of special rules and abstractions.

The point was about putting codexes into the core rulebook, not the size of the rulebook itself honestly.

So, what GW has done is make us buy another $80+ rulebook after just 2 years of buying the last one and they deserve brownie points just because they broke it up into three parts? Oh, wow, I am so impressed. What Games Workshop has accomplished is an unprecedented show of care for the customer and innovation in the industry.

What's that? They are going to make you buy all three parts? Well, it would seem that Games Workshop has done very little then. Make another thread if the rules part is available as as standalone that isn't more than $30 so then we can pat them on the back.

Ok, we all play lots of games I'm sure. So explain to me why a game needs to have a 7th edition? and why is it imperative to play the most current edition?

Is it so hard to come up with a set of rules for an imaginary future that isn't broken the first time or maybe by the 3rd or 4th try? It has nothing to do with making a good product, GW does not care if the product is good or bad, better if it looks like swiss cheese.

Magic has had release after release of new content and cards that work in the original system, which has been tweeked over the years to "fix" things. GW does not care if they fix anything, better if it is broken so "we" buy more stuff over and over again.

Packaging all the stuff in a nice 3 book set so I only have to take one with me to play is a great idea, but I want the fluff since it is the cornerstone of the game and I must take it as well. They have lost any sense of what the customer wants or needs to enjoy the game.

Do they care? No, it's all about making money, which is fine until you start forcing your customer to buy useless crap because you as a company screwed the pooch for to many years with bad planning.

What do we want? Content! New armies, new missions, new models/rules for existing armies (that have been play tested!). I don't want to rebuild my force every time a new book comes out, I want to add to it. Their idea of adding to it is replacing most of it since model X or army Y is crap in the new edition until it's codex comes out.

 Steve steveson wrote:
DV is getting updated with a new rule book, which GW have already said, which will be on eBay days after the release.
...
What is going to lose more players? Not addressing problems, or a new rule book after 2 years?

Respectfully, I tried to pick up a mini rule book during late-5th and they were like gold dust. I only found one, and the person selling it wanted more than the BRB for it (probably why it was the last one), maybe I was bit unlucky.

I think there are two separate issues here. The first is GW fixing problems with the rules. That is unquestionably a good thing that all companies should do. But a lot companies fix and correct rules for free. You've paid for the models and the game, you should at very least be able to play it. GW on the other hand haven't really change much since 4th edition. The difference between 4th and 6th could probably be covered in an errata. That is essentially what it is, but they re-bundle it with all the old fluff that hasn't changed since 2nd edition, and want to charge £50 for it!

That brings me to the second issue, which is their money spinning. That is what is loosing players in their droves. It's bad enough the models being expensive, but at least they are good quality, they hold their value well. The rules situation is abysmal in comparison. It isn't even the full rules anyway, because they hold most of it back to sell as codex books. The codex book system is pure idiocy now too. It used to make sense when the core game was built to last but needed updates for the armies. But now when editions aren't even lasting two years, having books straddling editions of rules they were never intended for, doesn't make for a better game. It's just a way for them to take something that used to be this:
And pad it out it into ~30 odd hardbacks, then charge more for each than the whole game used to cost.

But the whole point of GW is to release rules to get in a nice stock of cash every few years, dont kid its any other reason.

In a few years another 40k will be along... then another, and another...

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
I think there was actually a lot more to the rules in 2nd edition. In terms of mechanics it was a more complex game (grenade throwing, turrets blowing off tanks and landing on people etc.), although somehow a great deal easier to grasp than today's bloated mess of special rules and abstractions.

The point was about putting codexes into the core rulebook, not the size of the rulebook itself honestly.

I wish they would remove that face-palming orkmoticon, it always manages to come across as offensive even though I'm sure from your posting habits that that wasn't your intent.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
£50 is a pretty reasonable price for three volumes in a slipcase, in my opinion. Although I only really need the rules, and will switch my pre-order to a second copy of DV if an updated DV is available within a few days of the new rulebook...

The new DV set will only be containing partial rules, to introduce players to the system. Thus forcing all to buy the money-grabbing plasti-paper mess that will be 7th.




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 Blacksails wrote:

 troa wrote:
Because it's a step in the right direction, perhaps, Blacksails? Once you are at a "GW is evil, they are terrible!" mindset then nothing they do is worth acknowledging as positive, and that's where you're at. I'd encourage you to find a new hobby, since you hate GW that much. You won't be satisfied until EVERYTHING you think is wrong is fixed to your liking, and that will never happen.

Sure, its a step in the right direction, but hardly deserving of praise. I've never been of the mindset to say 'good job' to doing the bare minimum.

I'll say something positive about GW when they deserve it.

The 'hobby' is more than GW, and I already play other games.

Further, I'll be satisfied much before 'everything' if fixed to 'my' liking. I'll be satisfied when they start attaining basic levels of competency in game design, customer interaction, and pricing as the competitors. Not unreasonable at all.

+1.

Until GW has done something worthy of praise, they should not receive any.
Until GW is worth the money, they should not receive any.

Simple as.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Accolade wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

dereksatkinson wrote:
Maybe we could all just refuse to buy GW models on Tuesdays. I hear that worked great for sending a message to oil companies.

Won't do any good.

Thanks to the one man store program, nearly every shop is closed on a Tuesday.

So Mondays then?

Same problem...

Sundays seems kind of good.

Won't work here. Closed

It's almost as if GW knew this would happen and have already taken steps to nullify it.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think it's a logical leap to say "Currency inflation is only 1%, so the remaining price increase is solely for profit!!!" I think it's to increase revenue, which may be necessary in the face of increasing costs.

I don't think it is increasing costs. I think it is more the rapidly declining customer base and the need to make those that remain make up for the stupidity that is costing GW so many of their long term customers at this point.

Thus why you got a 70% increase on Stormtroopers/Scions not to long ago.

 welshhoppo wrote:
It's almost as if GW knew this would happen and have already taken steps to nullify it.

By being shut every day of the week.

Plan = Flawed.

azreal13 wrote:I'll also mention that pictures of this weeks WDW, which were photos of another users own personal copy of the mag, that I'd rehosted on Photobucket were taken down today at someone's (presumably a GW employee) request for copyright violation.

So that's time and money wasted to find the pics and inform Photobucket, but not only that, those pics were being used solely to generate interest in their product. The Internet being what it is, they're out there now, so it was a futile exercise, whose objective seems to have been, once again, to handicap people trying to promote GW's products.

It's so ridiculous for any company to spend money on stopping people from talking about your product. They shouldn't be putting in copyright challenges for people's pictures of magazines, they should be leaking them themselves!

There's nothing praiseworthy in the 7th ed release.

They invalidated people's rulebook purchases after two years at most. There are people who bought a rulebook a few months ago. People quit over crap like this.

They are providing only a more expensive way of transitioning to the new edition. Compare this to Malifaux 2nd Edition where they made a $15 rules manual you could get. It's like the 6th edition mini-rulebook from DV but you can just buy it. For $15.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
So, what GW has done is make us buy another $80+ rulebook after just 2 years of buying the last one and they deserve brownie points just because they broke it up into three parts? Oh, wow, I am so impressed. What Games Workshop has accomplished is an unprecedented show of care for the customer and innovation in the industry.

What's that? They are going to make you buy all three parts? Well, it would seem that Games Workshop has done very little then. Make another thread if the rules part is available as as standalone that isn't more than $30 so then we can pat them on the back.

Exactly. Here's an example of just how good GW is versus what's out there:

Privateer Press Warmachine MkII rules, released Oct 2009, $45 hardback, still being used today and a very well-written ruleset (not about the theme, just the ruleset)

GW:
Fifth Edition Rules available since July 2008. Price of $50.
Sixth Edition Rules available in June 2012: $75
Seventh Edition Rules available May 2014: $85

So, in the time you bought 1 very well-written rulebook for $45 from PP, you have spent $210 for a bunch of hack job poorly written junk from GW.

At this point, the 40k ruleset should be absolutely tight and well-written, but it is not. Why? Because the designers remaining at GW aren't competent - period. They are some of the worst in the business. When PP can get a rock-solid ruleset worked out in 6 years and three editions, while GW has 25 years with 40k and 7 editions and the game is STILL a complete and utter mess, there is no excuse anymore - much less having the nerve to charge a premium because of their self-inflated egos and hubris in thinking they are the best in the hobby at it. They aren't. They are actually the worst now, and it appears, month after month, more people are waking up to this fact and moving on.

Sorry, but I am having a hard time justifying anything GW nowadays. The game has turned into complete junk, their designers are utterly incompetent, and they are turning the game into a amalgamation of utter nonsense with LoWs, D-Weapons, Unbound armies and now whole hog Daemon summoning. 40k has turned into a complete embarrassment of the hobby, to be quite honest.

In the last six months, I have played games of Warmahordes, Bolt Action, Flames of War, Infinity, Dropzone Commader, Hell Dorado and a few games of 40k. Without a doubt, 40k was the WORST of all those games when it comes to the fun of the experience. That says a lot to me when they are pricing themselves as better than all the other games in the market today.

Personally, I believe 7th edition, from everything I have been reading and hearing, is going to be the edition that kills 40k.

The only good thing I will say about GW at this point is thanks to their insane price increase policies, I have netted over $4 grand on ebay in the last month alone as I have sold over more than twenty years of collecting GW stuff and I am only through half of my GW stuff at this point. I was saving my 40k Eldar and Space Marines, but at this point I am even considering divesting myself of GW altogether. Nothing about 7th edition has made me feel there is going to be a future with GW anymore, so I am feeling I might as well unload everything while there is still demand for it.


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Big P wrote:
But the whole point of GW is to release rules to get in a nice stock of cash every few years, dont kid its any other reason.

In a few years another 40k will be along... then another, and another...

At this point, speaking strictly from a business standpoint, I would bet against that last line. I personally believe, from the myriad of signs in the last six months, that GW is actually in a LOT of trouble and we are going to witness a very hard crash within the next two years. I think we are seeing the swan years of GW, just like the last two years of TSR. I am honestly of the opinion that GW may not even be here to release an 8th edition in two years.

Time will tell.

Big P wrote:
But the whole point of GW is to release rules to get in a nice stock of cash every few years, dont kid its any other reason.

In a few years another 40k will be along... then another, and another...

I can't imagine it lasting another 2 editions, well unless they both follow in 2 year sets (or 1 year) but 100 dollars for a book? I have never seen a book cost that much, and yet become utterly worthless in a few years time.
Because really, only the first 2 editions seem to be worth anything these days (especially the first) 3-6 aren't worth the paper they're printed on anymore.
I've never seen another game company charge so much for their books and have them become useless so quickly.

I want to play 40k but these rules, they're not fun, the money is too much, figures aren't worth that much money.
They're not.

 Wayshuba wrote:

Exactly. Here's an example of just how good GW is versus what's out there:

Privateer Press Warmachine MkII rules, released Oct 2009, $45 hardback, still being used today and a very well-written ruleset (not about the theme, just the ruleset)

GW:
Fifth Edition Rules available since July 2008. Price of $50.
Sixth Edition Rules available in June 2012: $75
Seventh Edition Rules available May 2014: $85

So, in the time you bought 1 very well-written rulebook for $45 from PP, you have spent $210 for a bunch of hack job poorly written junk from GW.

Very interesting comparison there. I confess that I've been quite hard on PP fans in the past for the rather high price-per-model, but when you take into account the amount spent on rulebooks it's positively a bargain compared to GW.

Don't forget with Warmachine all the additional books too.

You have Warmachine Prime and each of the Faction books.
Warmachine: Mercenaries
Warmachine: Wrath
Warmachine: Colossals
Warmachine: Convergence of Cyriss
Warmachine: Vengeance.

Plus that is only half of the game. You also have Hordes.
Hordes: Primal and all the Faction ones
Hordes: Minions
Hordes: Domination
Hordes: Gargantuans.
Hordes: The New one that is out soon.

So Warmachine also has a damn tonne of books. But they can be allowed this because everything except Primal and Prime contain only units and fluff. The models come with cards and the warroom app makes them very cheap.

But don't be mistaken that the books are cheaper overall.

 Eilif wrote:

 Wayshuba wrote:

Exactly. Here's an example of just how good GW is versus what's out there:

Privateer Press Warmachine MkII rules, released Oct 2009, $45 hardback, still being used today and a very well-written ruleset (not about the theme, just the ruleset)

GW:
Fifth Edition Rules available since July 2008. Price of $50.
Sixth Edition Rules available in June 2012: $75
Seventh Edition Rules available May 2014: $85

So, in the time you bought 1 very well-written rulebook for $45 from PP, you have spent $210 for a bunch of hack job poorly written junk from GW.

Very interesting comparison there. I confess that I've been quite hard on PP fans in the past for the rather high price-per-model, but when you take into account the amount spent on rulebooks it's positively a bargain compared to GW.

yeah but on average PP stuff is far cheaper and the game is far better.
If 40K was top notch, then the prices could maybe be reasonable (though that's a long stretch) but 40K has terrible, unbalanced, insane rules and PP has impressed me.
Starting Minions and its been a lot of fun, even if I haven't caught on yet.