Since the new edition is out now, I am curious who everyone feels are the winners and losers when it comes to armies. I know it is early, but here are my initial impressions:

Eldar (losers) - Wave Serpents took a hit with Jinx changes. Eldar Psychers may have gotten stronger.

Space Marines (not sure) - from what I have read so far, I am not seeing any real loss or gain for them.

Tau (winners) - I don't see anything that pulls them off their top tier spot, so I would say that is a win.

What do you all think?

 Havok210 wrote:
Since the new edition is out now, I am curious who everyone feels are the winners and losers when it comes to armies. I know it is early, but here are my initial impressions:

Eldar (losers) - Wave Serpents took a hit with Jinx changes. Eldar Psychers may have gotten stronger.

Space Marines (not sure) - from what I have read so far, I am not seeing any real loss or gain for them.

Tau (winners) - I don't see anything that pulls them off their top tier spot, so I would say that is a win.

What do you all think?

I think the primary problem is you're talking about armies and that's an outdated concept, you should be talking about collections. Forge a narrative.

 Crablezworth wrote:
I think the primary problem is you're talking about armies and that's an outdated concept, you should be talking about collections. Forge a narrative.

I have done my best to stay away from the whole allies thing when I play. I get the whole "Forge a Narrative" idea in theory, but I just see that as an open door to abuse allies for meta gaming. Just my opinion and not condemning those that do use allies.

Wave Serpents became super-scoring, though... And they can still just stay behind terrain for a cover save. And if needed, they can now jink on turn one.

Hardly a blow.

The Necrons lost very little. Jinking gave better saves but the snap shotting is pretty much meaningless to TL tesla weapons, their vehicles are now universally harder to kill, the Necrons can get enough cheap MCs to get enough smashes to break most vehicles anyway, they still have a boatload of ways to crack open all those vehicles or glance them into dust, and now they can make their res orb warriors+ghost arks or night scythe immortals super scoring (also scoring Anni barges and Deathmarks).

Grey Knights (Winners) - Every unit is a psyker, essentially. Great Inquisitors/Librarians. Access to the cheapest ML1 Psyker in the game and can be super scoring, to boot. Add in the benefits they can now reap from battle brothers, and you're going to see a meteoric rise of the Draigowing again.

 TheKbob wrote:
Grey Knights (Winners) - Every unit is a psyker, essentially. Great Inquisitors/Librarians. Access to the cheapest ML1 Psyker in the game and can be super scoring, to boot. Add in the benefits they can now reap from battle brothers, and you're going to see a meteoric rise of the Draigowing again.

Too bad Cron Knights now has so many penalties as a combo.

Otherwise people could make Wardex bash brother lists.

 Havok210 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
I think the primary problem is you're talking about armies and that's an outdated concept, you should be talking about collections. Forge a narrative.

I have done my best to stay away from the whole allies thing when I play. I get the whole "Forge a Narrative" idea in theory, but I just see that as an open door to abuse allies for meta gaming. Just my opinion and not condemning those that do use allies.

Same here I was justs being facetious. I share your opinion and do condemn those using allies in 40k, apoc, go nuts, 40k needs some regulating.

Well, Necrons didn't lose much as said.
However, I don't see that GK is a winner. Draigowing was dead in the 6th ed. I doubt that the psychic phase will bring it back to top level.
Serpents got a hit. But I think that this is fine as they were overpowered. Now they are the reliable transports that they always have been.

I think necrons have definitely come out on top, virtually no downsides and their vehicles getting harder to kill and gauss not caring about such things means a bit of a win-win

I think you're wrong about tau not losing out, cheesy buffmander + riptide/O'vesa is gone (which is great) but tau hard AV has also taken a hit, its very difficult for tau to crack AV13 and AV14 in 6th as is and with the change to the damage chart tau AV is actually very limited indeed. Guess GW wants people to "spam more missilesides"

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Havok210 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
I think the primary problem is you're talking about armies and that's an outdated concept, you should be talking about collections. Forge a narrative.

I have done my best to stay away from the whole allies thing when I play. I get the whole "Forge a Narrative" idea in theory, but I just see that as an open door to abuse allies for meta gaming. Just my opinion and not condemning those that do use allies.

Same here I was justs being facetious. I share your opinion and do condemn those using allies in 40k, apoc, go nuts, 40k needs some regulating.

Forsooth, he speaks the truth.

7th actually seems to have some interesting changes, but I'm looking forward to getting together with friends and writing out our own house rules to fix some of the baffling flaws on display (some of which have been pretty glaring since 6th dropped for that matter).

 Kain wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
Grey Knights (Winners) - Every unit is a psyker, essentially. Great Inquisitors/Librarians. Access to the cheapest ML1 Psyker in the game and can be super scoring, to boot. Add in the benefits they can now reap from battle brothers, and you're going to see a meteoric rise of the Draigowing again.

Too bad Cron Knights now has so many penalties as a combo.

Otherwise people could make Wardex bash brother lists.

Here's the 2K list I'm thinking of:



So I'm running double Deathstar at 2K.

Draigo is the wound sink for the Termitubbies.

I put Coteaz and Tigurius into units as they get the appropriate spells. Tiggy will be Telepathy for Invisibility and Coteaz will be Sanctic or Divination.

I have 9 super scoring units to include a deathstar, invisible paladins, a Centurion star to handle other death stars as the Paladins approach to wreck face. Vindicare is shieldbreaking away eternal warrior/Invulnurable save wargear to really threaten other decked out beat sticks that couldn't survive against either unit.

I have the models to do this save the 5 sniper scouts.

Daemons got the short end of the stick with the FMC nerf.

It was just about the only thing that the codex had going for it in the first place...

Bobug wrote:
tau hard AV has also taken a hit, its very difficult for tau to crack AV13 and AV14 in 6th as is and with the change to the damage chart tau AV is actually very limited indeed. Guess GW wants people to "spam more missilesides"

I wouldn't necessarily say that. Even only on a 5+ Longstrike with a railgun still insta explodes a tank 55% of the time when he gets a penetrating hit (assuming tank hunter hasn't changed), and even against AV14 he penetrates 55% of the time. That's a 30% chance to kill an AV 14 tank in one hit (and with markerlights he will hit). Not as great as last edition (41%) but the drop in performance still isn't that bad. Also keep in mind Longstrike got quite a bit tougher too.

Deep striking double fusion suits are still quite good at removing hard armor too, even through hull points. Assuming melta hasn't changed anyway.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Havok210 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
I think the primary problem is you're talking about armies and that's an outdated concept, you should be talking about collections. Forge a narrative.

I have done my best to stay away from the whole allies thing when I play. I get the whole "Forge a Narrative" idea in theory, but I just see that as an open door to abuse allies for meta gaming. Just my opinion and not condemning those that do use allies.

Same here I was justs being facetious. I share your opinion and do condemn those using allies in 40k, apoc, go nuts, 40k needs some regulating.

Forsooth, he speaks the truth.

7th actually seems to have some interesting changes, but I'm looking forward to getting together with friends and writing out our own house rules to fix some of the baffling flaws on display (some of which have been pretty glaring since 6th dropped for that matter).

This is the easiest way to keep various "camps" happy. I call it "warhammr 40k":

1500pts: 1 force org, 1 detachment

1850pts: allies, fortifications (all the stupid detachment nonsense)

2000-2999pts: super heavies, super mega monstrous creatures, formations knight titans ect

3000pts+: hello crazy, do whatever you want




Bottom line, I may be willing at some point to entertain what I feel is silly crap, but the player would have to earn my trust and frankly I don't trust anyone who can't field 1500pts of 1 codex, painted.

 Crablezworth wrote:
This is the easiest way to keep various "camps" happy. I call it "warhammr 40k":

1500pts: 1 force org, 1 detachment

1850pts: allies, fortifications (all the stupid detachment nonsense)

2000-2999pts: super heavies, super mega monstrous creatures, formations knight titans ect

3000pts+: hello crazy, do whatever you want

Bottom line, I may be willing at some point to entertain what I feel is silly crap, but the player would have to earn my trust and frankly I don't trust anyone who can't field 1500pts of 1 codex, painted.

But what about 10k? Do I get to just stand on the board and kick things like an emperor titan?

 Freytag93 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
This is the easiest way to keep various "camps" happy. I call it "warhammr 40k":

1500pts: 1 force org, 1 detachment

1850pts: allies, fortifications (all the stupid detachment nonsense)

2000-2999pts: super heavies, super mega monstrous creatures, formations knight titans ect

3000pts+: hello crazy, do whatever you want

Bottom line, I may be willing at some point to entertain what I feel is silly crap, but the player would have to earn my trust and frankly I don't trust anyone who can't field 1500pts of 1 codex, painted.

But what about 10k? Do I get to just stand on the board and kick things like an emperor titan?

Kirby and jervis arrive personally to congratulate you on a a well forged narrative and allow you to use their helicopters rotor blades to blow your opponent's collection off the board. Fallowed by tea and a select assortment of cheese

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Freytag93 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
This is the easiest way to keep various "camps" happy. I call it "warhammr 40k":

1500pts: 1 force org, 1 detachment

1850pts: allies, fortifications (all the stupid detachment nonsense)

2000-2999pts: super heavies, super mega monstrous creatures, formations knight titans ect

3000pts+: hello crazy, do whatever you want

Bottom line, I may be willing at some point to entertain what I feel is silly crap, but the player would have to earn my trust and frankly I don't trust anyone who can't field 1500pts of 1 codex, painted.

But what about 10k? Do I get to just stand on the board and kick things like an emperor titan?

Kirby and jervis arrive personally to congratulate you on a a well forged narrative and allow you to use their helicopters rotor blades to blow your opponent's collection off the board. Fallowed by tea and a select assortment of cheese

And does GW give me control over their company if a league runs a one million point game?

 Kain wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Freytag93 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
This is the easiest way to keep various "camps" happy. I call it "warhammr 40k":

1500pts: 1 force org, 1 detachment

1850pts: allies, fortifications (all the stupid detachment nonsense)

2000-2999pts: super heavies, super mega monstrous creatures, formations knight titans ect

3000pts+: hello crazy, do whatever you want

Bottom line, I may be willing at some point to entertain what I feel is silly crap, but the player would have to earn my trust and frankly I don't trust anyone who can't field 1500pts of 1 codex, painted.

But what about 10k? Do I get to just stand on the board and kick things like an emperor titan?

Kirby and jervis arrive personally to congratulate you on a a well forged narrative and allow you to use their helicopters rotor blades to blow your opponent's collection off the board. Fallowed by tea and a select assortment of cheese

And does GW give me control over their company if a league runs a one million point game?

Jervis will let you watch his kids for the weekend, he'll leave money for pizza.

 dementedwombat wrote:

Bobug wrote:
tau hard AV has also taken a hit, its very difficult for tau to crack AV13 and AV14 in 6th as is and with the change to the damage chart tau AV is actually very limited indeed. Guess GW wants people to "spam more missilesides"

I wouldn't necessarily say that. Even only on a 5+ Longstrike with a railgun still insta explodes a tank 55% of the time when he gets a penetrating hit (assuming tank hunter hasn't changed), and even against AV14 he penetrates 55% of the time. That's a 30% chance to kill an AV 14 tank in one hit (and with markerlights he will hit). Not as great as last edition (41%) but the drop in performance still isn't that bad. Also keep in mind Longstrike got quite a bit tougher too.

Deep striking double fusion suits are still quite good at removing hard armor too, even through hull points. Assuming melta hasn't changed anyway.

Taking into account to-hit rolls and without tank hunter & markerlights factored I make it ~8% chance of one-shot killing an AV14 vehicle as opposed to ~14% in 6th ed. So that seems quite a drop in effectiveness, if my maths is wrong I do apologise On the flip side you are right hammerheads will be a bit more survivable when stationary which is nice, and I am glad that people might try to maybe field more non-skimmer vehicles. Shame really that fielding mass S7 shooting will be just as effective while the hard hitting AT weapons got a nerfing




'

znelson wrote:
Daemons got the short end of the stick with the FMC nerf.

It was just about the only thing that the codex had going for it in the first place...

I completely disagree with you. Now you can have flying tzeentch demons with mastery level 3 pooping out more demons to take objectives that also get free stuff on top of it. Demons are going to be grossly overpowered, especially if you run two basic greater demons with wings and 3 demon princes. You will have 5 fmc's producing 5 troop choices a turn. Sounds downright broken to me.

 Piroko wrote:

znelson wrote:
Daemons got the short end of the stick with the FMC nerf.

It was just about the only thing that the codex had going for it in the first place...

I completely disagree with you. Now you can have flying tzeentch demons with mastery level 3 pooping out more demons to take objectives that also get free stuff on top of it. Demons are going to be grossly overpowered, especially if you run two basic greater demons with wings and 3 demon princes. You will have 5 fmc's producing 5 troop choices a turn. Sounds downright broken to me.

This is true... It'll be interesting to see all the anti-psyker meta.

 Havok210 wrote:

Tau (winners) - I don't see anything that pulls them off their top tier spot, so I would say that is a win.

You serius?

You ARE aware the only thing high-tier about tau was based upon riptide shenanigans with attached ICs or allied eldar psyker buffs, both no longer an option.

Sure, the gunline is still nice, but the cheese is gone.

orks lost out big on speed kults. Open topped vehicles everyone inside takes blast and flamer template hits again.

 Orock wrote:
orks lost out big on speed kults. Open topped vehicles everyone inside takes blast and flamer template hits again.

I think it's only templates and not blasts, but leave someone with the rule book to correct me.

The Necron Trans C'Tan Shard with the Hellstorm Template just got A LOT grosser.

 TheKbob wrote:

 Orock wrote:
orks lost out big on speed kults. Open topped vehicles everyone inside takes blast and flamer template hits again.

I think it's only templates and not blasts, but leave someone with the rule book to correct me.

The Necron Trans C'Tan Shard with the Hellstorm Template just got A LOT grosser.

It's not only wiping out a whole row of transports, it's roasting a fair chunk of the passengers in them too.

I think it's only open topped transports though, otherwise a single T-C'tan would more or less stop a mech list in it's tracks.

Someone at gw hates orks and dark eldar a lot it seems.

 Crablezworth wrote:
Someone at gw hates orks and dark eldar a lot it seems.

Somebody seems to like Daemons a lot.
JJ proudly presented Daemonology. Now we got it. It proves to me that GW is not able to provide balanced rules.

I'm trying my best to not be disheartened by GW's constant bashing of my 'Nids but it is hard. Crones are now nearly worthless with the vector strike nerf. They nerfed the poison reroll, so that's another blow that mostly targets 'Nid melee since there aren't that many other armies with mass poison + strength options. The loss of Biomancy and Telepathy is especially harsh with the new tables being so damn awesome. Area terrain is just gone..? No more charging the turn after swooping so I'm just forced to dakka which is a little bit boring. Smash is nearly worthless now. Add this all together with the 6th ed melee nerfs and shooting buffs, of which there an unjustifiable amount, and you have one sad melee loving 'Nid player. My other main army are the Orks, so I'm hopin' for a cheery june.

I'm not saying that 'Nids are worthless as an army but they definitely lack options compared to the other armies which seem to have just gotten a shitton more fun stuff they can do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and the Tzeentch Herald spam list summoning greater demons and troops and more heralds and whatever else you may want to indulge your greedy little heart with seems pretty disgusting to play with and against, BUT there is one interesting old rule that has been formalized in 7th: You HAVE to agree with your opponent how you select your armies before playing, meaning that you can now legally refuse to play someone with an completely unfun shitstorm of madness list. (You always could, but at least it's official now. )

 Windir83 wrote:
I'm trying my best to not be disheartened by GW's constant bashing of my 'Nids but it is hard. Crones are now nearly worthless with the vector strike nerf. They nerfed the poison reroll, so that's another blow that mostly targets 'Nid melee since there aren't that many other armies with mass poison + strength options. The loss of Biomancy and Telepathy is especially harsh with the new tables being so damn awesome. Area terrain is just gone..? No more charging the turn after swooping so I'm just forced to dakka which is a little bit boring. Smash is nearly worthless now. Add this all together with the 6th ed melee nerfs and shooting buffs, of which there an unjustifiable amount, and you have one sad melee loving 'Nid player. My other main army are the Orks, so I'm hopin' for a cheery june.

I'm not saying that 'Nids are worthless as an army but they definitely lack options compared to the other armies which seem to have just gotten a shitton more fun stuff they can do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and the Tzeentch Herald spam list summoning greater demons and troops and more heralds and whatever else you may want to indulge your greedy little heart with seems pretty disgusting to play with and against, BUT there is one interesting old rule that has been formalized in 7th: You HAVE to agree with your opponent how you select your armies before playing, meaning that you can now legally refuse to play someone with an completely unfun shitstorm of madness list. (You always could, but at least it's official now. )

They fething brought back the old poison rules?

feth that.

 Thud wrote:
Wave Serpents became super-scoring, though... And they can still just stay behind terrain for a cover save. And if needed, they can now jink on turn one.

Hardly a blow.

Tend to agree - they still have all their previous OP awesome firepower, just now if it looks like one of them might take a pounding its even harder to kill now and in exchange has to snap shot only - next turn..........

Plus as noted they now become super scoring units - seems like the cheese has grown more powerful?

They fething brought back the old poison rules?

feth that.

I'm not sure exactly what the old rules were, but now you only get a reroll if the Strength is higher than Toughness. The good news is that you make the (4+) to wound roll unless you would normally get a better roll.

So if a plaguebearer attacks a gaunt the plaguebearer (S4vs.T3) wounds on 3's and rerolls, compared to before which was 4's rerolling.

It makes plague marines a little less disgusting against T4 models in melee. The GUO will wound most everything on 2's with rerolls compared to 4's with rerolls.

 Truth118 wrote:

They fething brought back the old poison rules?

feth that.

I'm not sure exactly what the old rules were, but now you only get a reroll if the Strength is higher than Toughness. The good news is that you make the (4+) to wound roll unless you would normally get a better roll.

So if a plaguebearer attacks a gaunt the plaguebearer (S4vs.T3) wounds on 3's and rerolls, compared to before which was 4's rerolling.

It makes plague marines a little less disgusting against T4 models in melee. The GUO will wound most everything on 2's with rerolls compared to 4's with rerolls.

Oh thank goodness I thought he meant that Poison was back to flat 2-4+, even if your strength was better.

Top tier codexes are still top tier. Just the most broken builds in them (O'vesa star, seer council, FMC daemons) got varying levels of nerfage. O'vesa star is flat out removed from existence, for example. Seer council can only attempt fortune once in the whole unit, so anyone who even slightly knows what they're doing is going to blow all their denial dice to attempt to stop it. FMC's can't charge after landing, but they are quite a bit more reliable about staying in the air. The big smash hit is now just a single hit.

Wave serpents made a lateral move from awesome to awesome.
The tau book in general is still quite good. Riptides are still far beyond way too rock hard tough for their point cost. And shooting edition is now spanning two editions.

The only big change is, if you see someone coming in to play carrying 5 boxes of daemon figures for a non-apocalypse game, RUN, because that army will slaughter you.

Hidden buff for assault armies in general-overwatch must be resolved BEFORE charge ranges now, meaning you do NOT know if the unit will reach you or not.
Doesnt matter against a simple 1v1 scenario, but against multiple attackers, a "dummy charge" is far more dangerous, and tau overwatch is also far harder to calculate for maximum effect.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Hidden buff for assault armies in general-overwatch must be resolved BEFORE charge ranges now, meaning you do NOT know if the unit will reach you or not.
Doesnt matter against a simple 1v1 scenario, but against multiple attackers, a "dummy charge" is far more dangerous, and tau overwatch is also far harder to calculate for maximum effect.

STOP capitalizing RANDOM words, do I NEED to make this a running THING because it is really PAINFUL to read.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Hidden buff for assault armies in general-overwatch must be resolved BEFORE charge ranges now, meaning you do NOT know if the unit will reach you or not.
Doesnt matter against a simple 1v1 scenario, but against multiple attackers, a "dummy charge" is far more dangerous, and tau overwatch is also far harder to calculate for maximum effect.

How does Overwatch work with the new shooting rules - when do you measure range (if you do) and does wall of death still work as before?

Sorry, just my way of bolding out important words, was not aware its disturbing some.

Andway, that plus the "challenge spillover" might be enough to turn assault into a viable strategy again. (with terrain charge range changes too)

niv-mizzet wrote:
Top tier codexes are still top tier. Just the most broken builds in them (O'vesa star, seer council, FMC daemons) got varying levels of nerfage. O'vesa star is flat out removed from existence, for example. Seer council can only attempt fortune once in the whole unit, so anyone who even slightly knows what they're doing is going to blow all their denial dice to attempt to stop it. FMC's can't charge after landing, but they are quite a bit more reliable about staying in the air. The big smash hit is now just a single hit.

Wave serpents made a lateral move from awesome to awesome.
The tau book in general is still quite good. Riptides are still far beyond way too rock hard tough for their point cost. And shooting edition is now spanning two editions.

The only big change is, if you see someone coming in to play carrying 5 boxes of daemon figures for a non-apocalypse game, RUN, because that army will slaughter you.

I see a new Death Star from Iyanden Eldar... Full units of Wraithguard with 5 Spiritseers. Fish all day for Invisibility, enjoy trying to kill that. O_o

 TheKbob wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Top tier codexes are still top tier. Just the most broken builds in them (O'vesa star, seer council, FMC daemons) got varying levels of nerfage. O'vesa star is flat out removed from existence, for example. Seer council can only attempt fortune once in the whole unit, so anyone who even slightly knows what they're doing is going to blow all their denial dice to attempt to stop it. FMC's can't charge after landing, but they are quite a bit more reliable about staying in the air. The big smash hit is now just a single hit.

Wave serpents made a lateral move from awesome to awesome.
The tau book in general is still quite good. Riptides are still far beyond way too rock hard tough for their point cost. And shooting edition is now spanning two editions.

The only big change is, if you see someone coming in to play carrying 5 boxes of daemon figures for a non-apocalypse game, RUN, because that army will slaughter you.

I see a new Death Star from Iyanden Eldar... Full units of Wraithguard with 5 Spiritseers. Fish all day for Invisibility, enjoy trying to kill that. O_o

If I'm not wrong, O'ves'a star still works because he has independent character which takes precedent over monstrous creature.

Not sure why everyone freaked out about it though, it's not really that bad, it was just a pain to kill.

Far'sun bomb is far hurtier.

Bobug wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:

Bobug wrote:
tau hard AV has also taken a hit, its very difficult for tau to crack AV13 and AV14 in 6th as is and with the change to the damage chart tau AV is actually very limited indeed. Guess GW wants people to "spam more missilesides"

I wouldn't necessarily say that. Even only on a 5+ Longstrike with a railgun still insta explodes a tank 55% of the time when he gets a penetrating hit (assuming tank hunter hasn't changed), and even against AV14 he penetrates 55% of the time. That's a 30% chance to kill an AV 14 tank in one hit (and with markerlights he will hit). Not as great as last edition (41%) but the drop in performance still isn't that bad. Also keep in mind Longstrike got quite a bit tougher too.

Deep striking double fusion suits are still quite good at removing hard armor too, even through hull points. Assuming melta hasn't changed anyway.

Taking into account to-hit rolls and without tank hunter & markerlights factored I make it ~8% chance of one-shot killing an AV14 vehicle as opposed to ~14% in 6th ed. So that seems quite a drop in effectiveness, if my maths is wrong I do apologise

Why would you take out tank hunter? Does it not work the same way still (re-roll penetration and damage right?) I might be playing it wrong. Never actually bought the 6e book and just played by what my friends said since they had the book.

Your maths are indeed right for the situation you described. I just added in the tank hunter re-rolls and ignored to-hit.

Never thought I would hear Iyanden and good in the same statement . Most conversations about Iyanden have been meh.

If I'm not wrong, O'ves'a star still works because he has independent character which takes precedent over monstrous creature.

thats what I heard too?

 Havok210 wrote:
Never thought I would hear Iyanden and good in the same statement . Most conversations about Iyanden have been meh.

When you have a roving band of 10 Wraithguard that cannot be effectively damaged and buffed out the butt along with 3 Wraithknights and some Wave Serpents/Warp Spiders, etc. etc., you'll be doing pretty good. Just throw Eldrad into that unit and it gets even more gross.

A unit of 10 guys with Distort Flamers that are twin-linked, fortuned, and are immune to blast weapons/templates themselves and can only be hit on 6s? How about the Wraithblades with axes?

YIKES.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Top tier codexes are still top tier. Just the most broken builds in them (O'vesa star, seer council, FMC daemons) got varying levels of nerfage. O'vesa star is flat out removed from existence, for example. Seer council can only attempt fortune once in the whole unit, so anyone who even slightly knows what they're doing is going to blow all their denial dice to attempt to stop it. FMC's can't charge after landing, but they are quite a bit more reliable about staying in the air. The big smash hit is now just a single hit.

Wave serpents made a lateral move from awesome to awesome.
The tau book in general is still quite good. Riptides are still far beyond way too rock hard tough for their point cost. And shooting edition is now spanning two editions.

The only big change is, if you see someone coming in to play carrying 5 boxes of daemon figures for a non-apocalypse game, RUN, because that army will slaughter you.

I see a new Death Star from Iyanden Eldar... Full units of Wraithguard with 5 Spiritseers. Fish all day for Invisibility, enjoy trying to kill that. O_o

If I'm not wrong, O'ves'a star still works because he has independent character which takes precedent over monstrous creature.

Not sure why everyone freaked out about it though, it's not really that bad, it was just a pain to kill.

Far'sun bomb is far hurtier.

O'Vesa stops working because you cannot join the three ICs (Buffy the Commander, O'Vesa, and Farsight) to a second riptide to maximize Buffy's Bonus'.

So you could technically still run it, it's just much less effective.

Hes probably factoring in a crisis bomb without a buffmander. Tau only get tankhunter with a PEN (Puretide Engram Nerochip, or however its spelled) brought by a buffmander or a shas'ui sacrificing one of his 3 loadout slots and his shooting.
Though i think his numbers are off. AP1 will still explode a non-open topped vehicle on a 5+ and quite frankly shooting one crisis suit at one vehicle is a dumb idea, even with the buffmander. I always double up on one of them, so i got 4 fusions pelting one and 2 on another. Funny part is usually the solo shooter manages to pop his target before the tagteam does lol.
And yes i know tau also have tankhunter with Longstrike, but thats not on crisis suits so i ignored that.

 TheKbob wrote:

 Havok210 wrote:
Never thought I would hear Iyanden and good in the same statement . Most conversations about Iyanden have been meh.

When you have a roving band of 10 Wraithguard that cannot be effectively damaged and buffed out the butt along with 3 Wraithknights and some Wave Serpents/Warp Spiders, etc. etc., you'll be doing pretty good. Just throw Eldrad into that unit and it gets even more gross.

A unit of 10 guys with Distort Flamers that are twin-linked, fortuned, and are immune to blast weapons/templates themselves and can only be hit on 6s? How about the Wraithblades with axes?

YIKES.

Don't forget protect for a 2+ save and free shrouded from the spiritseer, because feth weight of fire.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Top tier codexes are still top tier. Just the most broken builds in them (O'vesa star, seer council, FMC daemons) got varying levels of nerfage. O'vesa star is flat out removed from existence, for example. Seer council can only attempt fortune once in the whole unit, so anyone who even slightly knows what they're doing is going to blow all their denial dice to attempt to stop it. FMC's can't charge after landing, but they are quite a bit more reliable about staying in the air. The big smash hit is now just a single hit.

Wave serpents made a lateral move from awesome to awesome.
The tau book in general is still quite good. Riptides are still far beyond way too rock hard tough for their point cost. And shooting edition is now spanning two editions.

The only big change is, if you see someone coming in to play carrying 5 boxes of daemon figures for a non-apocalypse game, RUN, because that army will slaughter you.

I see a new Death Star from Iyanden Eldar... Full units of Wraithguard with 5 Spiritseers. Fish all day for Invisibility, enjoy trying to kill that. O_o

If I'm not wrong, O'ves'a star still works because he has independent character which takes precedent over monstrous creature.

Not sure why everyone freaked out about it though, it's not really that bad, it was just a pain to kill.

Far'sun bomb is far hurtier.

O'Vesa stops working because you cannot join the three ICs (Buffy the Commander, O'Vesa, and Farsight) to a second riptide to maximize Buffy's Bonus'.

So you could technically still run it, it's just much less effective.

Ah that does take quite a bit of bite out of it.

^ Would make sense. Oh the wonders of discussing (semi)technical matters over the internet. Two people talking about two different situations without realizing it.

I will admit I never really tried the deep striking crisis suit approach. With my local meta it's more advantageous for me to use EWO and have them be an interceptor platform. Plasma/fusion/EWO all the way, with a couple gun drones for more dakka and wound sponging!

The real winner is all of the Imperium. With the ability to Voltron unto itself, you're going to see some magnificently destructive combos, I imagine leveraging much of Grey Knight nonsense along with Azrael, St. Celestine, Priests, and more will make some crippling combos.

 TheKbob wrote:
The real winner is all of the Imperium. With the ability to Voltron unto itself, you're going to see some magnificently destructive combos, I imagine leveraging much of Grey Knight nonsense along with Azrael, St. Celestine, Priests, and more will make some crippling combos.

And Coteaz forms the head!

 Kain wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
The real winner is all of the Imperium. With the ability to Voltron unto itself, you're going to see some magnificently destructive combos, I imagine leveraging much of Grey Knight nonsense along with Azrael, St. Celestine, Priests, and more will make some crippling combos.

And Coteaz forms the head!

Here's something to think on... Coteaz from Grey Knights will not be able to cast Malefic powers. Coteaz from Inquisition, from the little cheat card, may be able to cast Malefic. Does this make thme "different" enough to run both in the same list?

 TheKbob wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
The real winner is all of the Imperium. With the ability to Voltron unto itself, you're going to see some magnificently destructive combos, I imagine leveraging much of Grey Knight nonsense along with Azrael, St. Celestine, Priests, and more will make some crippling combos.

And Coteaz forms the head!

Here's something to think on... Coteaz from Grey Knights will not be able to cast Malefic powers. Coteaz from Inquisition, from the little cheat card, may be able to cast Malefic. Does this make thme "different" enough to run both in the same list?

Model a goatee on the inquisition Coteaz, because he's clearly the evil twin.

 Kain wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
The real winner is all of the Imperium. With the ability to Voltron unto itself, you're going to see some magnificently destructive combos, I imagine leveraging much of Grey Knight nonsense along with Azrael, St. Celestine, Priests, and more will make some crippling combos.

And Coteaz forms the head!

Here's something to think on... Coteaz from Grey Knights will not be able to cast Malefic powers. Coteaz from Inquisition, from the little cheat card, may be able to cast Malefic. Does this make thme "different" enough to run both in the same list?

Model a goatee on the inquisition Coteaz, because he's clearly the evil twin.

I shall call him "Broteaz" lol

On the note of the Farsight supp, i imagine the IC rule would result like dementedwombat said otherwise it would make 0 sense, even to GW lol.

However theres another part of that suppliment that needs a FAQ because the way i interpret it with the new psyker rules seems rather...broken lol

Talisman of Arthas Moloch. 25pt signature system that gives the bearer a 5++ and his unit PLUS any unit in 12" from the bearer roll four D6 for deny the witch attempts instead of one, taking the highest.

The way i see this affecting the new Deny rules, for every warp i expend to try to cancel one of yours i roll 4D6. Thats just insane lol. Obviously cant use it if youre buffing yourself since its still considered a modifier, but if youre nuking me and i need to nullify 3 warp charges to cancel it...im throwing 4 to cancel each 1 lol.

Previously it wasnt THAT broken because in the end its still 1 attempt. Depending on the situation, i could have a potential 6 attempts in this 4D6 fashion lol

Wonder Twins Power ACTIVATE:

Form Of... GOUDA!

My guess with the talisman is you will get the 4 dice for the price of one, but only within that bubble. Needs to be FAQ'd something fierce, but that would make sense to me (considering Tau have 0 psykers, this offsets that loss somewhat)

For my armies:

CSM get quite a shot in the arm. Their access to Psyker disciplines is REALLY better, and they can bring lots of psykers between sorcerers, 1kSons and their demon pals. Daemon Princes became amazing Malefic psykers. Also, it pretty much takes an Icarus or a Vendetta to simply blow a Helldrake out of the sky; otherwise, just keep glancing it and hoping it does not regenerate.

Oblits and even (ugh) mutilators can get some interesting buffs from Malefic daemonology (Hello, 3++ Tzeentch Mutilators/Oblits!).

Dark Eldar: Lost the automatic Jink, but now they can jink on turn 1 if they lose the roll-off. They have tons of AP2 anti-tank so the sturdier vehicles don't affect them much. CC still blows, though. Most of their buffs come from being pals with Eldar, so no they can put their scoring/killy warriors in safe Wave Serpents and let Banshees/Scorpions ride those open-topped Raiders.

 Havok210 wrote:
Since the new edition is out now, I am curious who everyone feels are the winners and losers when it comes to armies. I know it is early, but here are my initial impressions:

Eldar (losers) - Wave Serpents took a hit with Jinx changes. Eldar Psychers may have gotten stronger.

Space Marines (not sure) - from what I have read so far, I am not seeing any real loss or gain for them.

Tau (winners) - I don't see anything that pulls them off their top tier spot, so I would say that is a win.

What do you all think?

All Jinking models that have heavy firepower have been hit, not just the Wave Serpent. I'm thinking more in terms of Eldar Jetbikers. Manage to fire off enough fire power at them and they'll be forced to jink, in which they'll then have to spend the whole game jumping around shooting snap shots and having to jink to stop incoming shots, or hide in order to block LOS and waste a turn of effectiveness. I know they can move in the assault phase, and that'll help them avoiding jinking in the first place, but all you need to do is establish LOS on their hidey-hole. Their scoring effectiveness hasn't reduced, they can take objectives from non-troops, but if you go second, those Eldar won't want to come close enough to contest an objective, especially since if it's not troops on that objective it'll be something tough and nasty that can't just be shot off it with ease (tanks, MC's, etc). I would take back-field objectives with heavy stuff you don't want getting too close. Mid-field objectives by units that can take enough firepower in response. And high-priority objectives by troop choices in a dedicated transport. Because the transport now can score like the troops inside it, there's no reason to get them out.

I just don't think Wave Serpents are better overall. Turbo-boosting/Moving flat out with fast vehicles no longer confers a bonus to your Jink. So it's a maximum 3+ cover save, including the vehicle upgrade thing that gives it plus 1 to cover saves. Considering Jink is now a 4+, that's the same as before. But to use that save, it has to forfeit it's hitting power. Yes, it might be "super-scoring". But honestly, wasn't the Wave Serpent always a priority target by those that knew what it could do ? Most of the time. dedicated transports in 6th edition weren't a priority target because the troops had to get OUT to capture objectives, the transport would just sit there, maybe helping to block LOS to the objective. The Wave Serpent bucked this trend, because of it's firepower and it's ability to take large amounts of firepower in return. So it was a priority target in 6th ed. But now, all dedicated transports are a threat, because they provide an essential layer of protection between your troops and any anti-infantry weapons, while providing the same scoring capability of a troop choice. Wave Serpents can do this too, but because of their higher points cost and effectiveness as a unit, they are still a priority target like before. But now, the Eldar player with his Serpents now has to deal with a lot more priority targets of their own, now that all transports provide a threat because of "super-scoring". Those opposing transports are cheaper, can survive more effectively than before because of the changed damage chart (and the Jink if they're skimmers). That Devilfish over there ? It now doesn't have to let the troops out to score, so now you have to either maneuver so you can hit the rear, or dedicate some S6-7, in order to finish it. That requires you to focus less on other units that were always a bigger threat , such as Riptides, Crisis, Broadsides, and so on, because if you leave it there, it will keep the objective.

These Dedicated transports have always been on the board, but for the same points they are now more dangerous. Wave Serpents were already dangerous, so they were already priority targets. Am i making sense...? There has been a massive shift in tactics with 7 ed. With everything scoring, and troops and their transports the best at it, it's going to require more thought about what units provide the greatest threat, as well as how you can position your own units to take advantage of the new rules. While you CAN hide the Wave Serpent away so, combined with it's survivabilty, it's so much harder to get it off the objective. But then you are hiding a large points investment, when your opponent has cheaper transports that are doing the same thing, at a lesser detriment to the overall firepower of the army. You hide away, now the troops inside the Serpent can't do anything, even if they get out, because of their short range guns. Your opponent's transports can jink to their hearts content, as they don't need the firepower, they can hide away as much as they want, because they are cheaper. I'm not sure if you can move the troops out of the Dedicated Transport and then move the vehicle elsewhere so you have two super-scoring units. But if you can. you've just dumped some incredibly fragile Eldar that can't contribute (again, because of their short ranged guns), when your opponent is likely to have troops that can survive more effectively, with longer range firepower (i think most troops have a longer range gun than Eldar Guardians).

I hope I got my point across. In my opinion, those transports that weren't as important before, now are integral to the strategy. Wave Serpents benefit too, but because they cost more, and because their Jink will remove the effectiveness of the firepower that you pay for, In my opinion, they just aren't as effective considering the new rules.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Havok210 wrote:
Since the new edition is out now, I am curious who everyone feels are the winners and losers when it comes to armies. I know it is early, but here are my initial impressions:

Eldar (losers) - Wave Serpents took a hit with Jinx changes. Eldar Psychers may have gotten stronger.

Space Marines (not sure) - from what I have read so far, I am not seeing any real loss or gain for them.

Tau (winners) - I don't see anything that pulls them off their top tier spot, so I would say that is a win.

What do you all think?

I think the primary problem is you're talking about armies and that's an outdated concept, you should be talking about collections. Forge a narrative.

I Have to agree, Armies makes little sence in a system where you can mix and anything and everything you want with a (1 hq 1 troop) or (1 hq 2 troop, for more slots) tax. That with out mentioning unbound which is completely bonkers.

For instance, every imperial army will include Ezequiel, because for 150 points he is the best and cheapest lvl 3 you will get and the tax can simply be a scout unit which you can use to grab objectives. That or/and Tigurius which is a little bit more expensive but much more powerful.

You can also expect 1 inquistor and 3 (1 psiker and 2 acolites) in razorbacks in most armies as well. Since they add 3 units that will mostly resist most small arms fire, cap 3 objectives and bring you about 1 power dice each. Everything for 70 points a pop.

There you have in about 350 points 4 units that can cap, a lvl 3 psiker, and +6 total power dice. And we have not even touched the main detatchemnt yet.

These Dedicated transports have always been on the board, but for the same points they are now more dangerous. Wave Serpents were already dangerous, so they were already priority targets. Am i making sense...? There has been a massive shift in tactics with 7 ed. With everything scoring, and troops and their transports the best at it, it's going to require more thought about what units provide the greatest threat, as well as how you can position your own units to take advantage of the new rules. While you CAN hide the Wave Serpent away so, combined with it's survivabilty, it's so much harder to get it off the objective. But then you are hiding a large points investment, when your opponent has cheaper transports that are doing the same thing, at a lesser detriment to the overall firepower of the army. You hide away, now the troops inside the Serpent can't do anything, even if they get out, because of their short range guns.

Sorry but Don't see it - the Wave Serpent has huge advantages over the other transports - not only in survivability but in the fact that it shreds the opposite number - the damage chart is meaningless to it - as it glances other transports to death.

Your opponent's transports can jink to their hearts content, as they don't need the firepower, they can hide away as much as they want, because they are cheaper.

Er only if they are also skimmers - and even then I assume Jink is still a cover save - which guess what Wave Serpents ignore........... most transports will die horribly to those Wave Serpents that have not just dodged all the fire.........

I'm not sure if you can move the troops out of the Dedicated Transport and then move the vehicle elsewhere so you have two super-scoring units. But if you can. you've just dumped some incredibly fragile Eldar that can't contribute (again, because of their short ranged guns), when your opponent is likely to have troops that can survive more effectively, with longer range firepower (i think most troops have a longer range gun than Eldar Guardians).

Dire Avengers are not especially short ranged and "incredibly fragile" - compared to what - Dark Eldar Warriors? Imperial guard, Sororitas? And of course their guns are still pseudo rending........

Preliminary winners:
Eldar, Chaos Daemons

Preliminary losers:
Everybody else.

Why? Because when you can create extra units out of thin air every turn, nothing else really matters.

Extra units that cost alot, risky to attempt to bring, and usually not very impressive to begin with.

Summoning is, at best, a "brake in case of emergency" type of power, to make a longshot bet when you REALLY need something. relying on it is outright silly, even for T demons.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Extra units that cost alot, risky to attempt to bring, and usually not very impressive to begin with.

Summoning is, at best, a "brake in case of emergency" type of power, to make a longshot bet when you REALLY need something. relying on it is outright silly, even for T demons.

Hahahah no.

Cost alot? You don't have to pay for them, you understand that, right?

Risky to attempt to bring for everyone but CD (who don't roll perils on any doubles like other armies) and Eldar (who have the Spirit Stone of Anath'lan and Ghosthelms)... hence why I singled out those two armies specifically.

It doesn't matter that they are not impressive. They are FREE, and you can summon a ****ton of them. AND they have Obective Secured because they are Troops.

Yea the summoned units really need special rules tacked onto them to make them weaker. Something along the lines of CANNOT SCORE OR DENY? Or better yet, vaporize into nothingness after 2 turns (so they deepstrike in, next turn move and do something, then go away). Or both.

As it is, its insane. i cant believe they allowed that. when i heard summoning i thought it was going to be 1-2 models per cast not damn near entire units.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Extra units that cost alot, risky to attempt to bring, and usually not very impressive to begin with.

Summoning is, at best, a "brake in case of emergency" type of power, to make a longshot bet when you REALLY need something. relying on it is outright silly, even for T demons.

Oh really? Read this...

http://daemons40k.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-early-returns-are-not-good.html

This guy isn't even using the most spammy summoning army he can. This can be WORSE.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The most powerful army in the game will likely be Chaos Daemons allied with Grey Knights. BOTH Daemonology powersets and an endless horde of psykers.

Yeah, I wanted to believe summoning spells weren't going to be that strong due to WC3, but the initial reports coming in are showing that even summoning 1-2 units per turn can be pretty rough for the opponent to deal with. When you're throwing around 30+ dice, its fairly easy to summon a few good units, and before you know it, you'll be effectively up a few hundred points in a turn or two.

While this is only the first day of the release, I can't help but feel people are going to find ways to make these psyker heavy lists even more terrifying.

Thats why i thought you were summoning 1-2 models per summon, resolved by a 4+ if you got 2 from the summon. When i saw the cards were letting you bring a whole freakin unit just about i was like ...wat....

i dont even know the stats of the things being summoned, all i know is they arent Gretchin level of squishy so they are going to take SOME level of attention. Even if you only get 1 summon off per turn, that forces 1-2 of my units to waste shooting at a unit you didnt pay for so they dont rush down my throat to clog my gunline up.

You can summon Bloodthirsters. Like serious, face beating stuff.

I actually like the way the new psyker phase works and the viability it brings to psyker-heavy lists, making an army of sorcerers a possible thing a player can choose to do.

The only problem is with the summoning, but knowing GW they'll nerf psykers across the board to "fix" the problem without tackling the source. Invisibility at least needs to be rolled for on most models but it could get a tweak too.

Yeah, and you summon 10 of those bloodthirsters a time. Not D6+4, not even 2D6, a flat TEN.....wtf why is summoning not a random number with the entire game is randomization spamming?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Thats why i thought you were summoning 1-2 models per summon, resolved by a 4+ if you got 2 from the summon. When i saw the cards were letting you bring a whole freakin unit just about i was like ...wat....

i dont even know the stats of the things being summoned, all i know is they arent Gretchin level of squishy so they are going to take SOME level of attention. Even if you only get 1 summon off per turn, that forces 1-2 of my units to waste shooting at a unit you didnt pay for so they dont rush down my throat to clog my gunline up.

From a battle report:

The Psychic Phase almost went into the Good, but for one, huge, glaring problem. As of now, there is no limit on Warp Charge. You can quite easily build an army that has 30+ warp charge. We did it last night and made a Daemon summoning spam list and it was ludicrous. The Daemon plyaer had 38 warp charge and by turn 2, had brought in over 1,000pts of new units onto the table and the Space Marine player never got a single power off nor denied a single power as they had 3 Warp Charge in their pool to work with. It was comical. The game took almost 6 hours to play and by the end of it, the Daemon player’s army had gone over 4,000pts. The Psychic phase seemed like it was intended to stop the abuses of 6th, but in some ways it exacerbated them. Without a limit on Warp Charge, psychic heavy armies will have an incredible advantage.

The Malefic powers are also suspect. We need to play-test them more, but so far, they are just way over the top. In one game we saw summoned onto the field like, 150 Daemonettes, a Bloodthirster, 9 Screamers, etc. It is just a bit much. One player ends up with the equivalent of 2 or even 3 armies against the other player’s one. And a Space Marine librarian summing Deamons? Or turning into one by choice??? Come on, that just flies in the face of the fluff. We’ll see how it goes, and again, limiting Warp Charge cuts down on this a bit, but as it stands this school of powers is an obvious cash grab to get people to buy Daemons and throws the game balance out the window. - See more at: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/05/24/7th-edition-warhammer-40k-review-the-good-the-bad-and-solutions/#sthash.U8D0LaRQ.dpuf{/quote]

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Explain to me why the orks have no psychic defense and cannot stop spells?

Even my Tau can do that, and they dont even have a worthless psyker option.

And assault spill over helps orks more than it hurts. I am so sick of my warboss with 5-6 attacks 1shotting my challenging opponent and wasting the rest of my wounds.

Because this is 7th edition, the age of Combined Arms Detachments. Clearly they made the rules expecting Orks to take a second detachment from some other Psyker-friendly faction.

Prior to 7th, the game was like Magic the Gathering being played as a mono-color deck. Pure Red, Pure Black, Pure White, etc sometimes with just a splash of allies for flavor.

Now we're getting into true multi-faction army building which may even help with the balance problems of the game. It allows GW to focus on what each faction does best. If you like melee, you pick up Orks. If you like magic, you pick up Daemons. If you like swarms and swarms of things, you grab Tyranids or Imperial Guard. Building an army has become a matter of picking the right combination of detachments to suit your strategy. This is similar to building a Red/Black deck, or a Green/White weenie rush deck, or a five-color-Legends deck.

The options are limitless because we can FORGE A NARRATIVE!

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
Preliminary winners:
Eldar, Chaos Daemons

Preliminary losers:
Everybody else.

Why? Because when you can create extra units out of thin air every turn, nothing else really matters.

Funny that it took two pages to get it right.

 undertow wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
If ANYONE tries to pull it off against you though-even in a turny, you can outright tell him he can't take demonology at all, as the codex states they are limited to specific disciplines and as such barred from demonology. (it even says on the demonology rules "unless otherwise stated"), at least until FAQs sort it out

No reason to stop someone who uses it without abusing it though.

Selective enforcement of rules aside, the BRB says unless otherwise stated, all armies have access to demonology. Please show me in the Daemon (or any other Codex) where access to daemonology is prohibited.

Each individual unit profile of a psyker, in the part where it tells you what disciplines it has.

Sure, its being a rules lawyer and an ass, that's why I said to only pull it out against someone who is being an ass to begin with. because the way its written ATM, the fact it tells "psyker X generates from disciplines Y" IS "stating otherwise", at some interpretation.
While obviously not the intended one, umping to abuse odd interactions with older books that have yet to be FAQed to how they are supposed to be to begin with makes you deserve such treatment.

Kyutaru wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Explain to me why the orks have no psychic defense and cannot stop spells?

Even my Tau can do that, and they dont even have a worthless psyker option.

And assault spill over helps orks more than it hurts. I am so sick of my warboss with 5-6 attacks 1shotting my challenging opponent and wasting the rest of my wounds.

Because this is 7th edition, the age of Combined Arms Detachments. Clearly they made the rules expecting Orks to take a second detachment from some other Psyker-friendly faction.

Prior to 7th, the game was like Magic the Gathering being played as a mono-color deck. Pure Red, Pure Black, Pure White, etc sometimes with just a splash of allies for flavor.

Now we're getting into true multi-faction army building which may even help with the balance problems of the game. It allows GW to focus on what each faction does best. If you like melee, you pick up Orks. If you like magic, you pick up Daemons. If you like swarms and swarms of things, you grab Tyranids or Imperial Guard. Building an army has become a matter of picking the right combination of detachments to suit your strategy. This is similar to building a Red/Black deck, or a Green/White weenie rush deck, or a five-color-Legends deck.

The options are limitless because we can FORGE A NARRATIVE!

Until you realize that not everything gets to easily ally

 StarTrotter wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Explain to me why the orks have no psychic defense and cannot stop spells?

Even my Tau can do that, and they dont even have a worthless psyker option.

And assault spill over helps orks more than it hurts. I am so sick of my warboss with 5-6 attacks 1shotting my challenging opponent and wasting the rest of my wounds.

Because this is 7th edition, the age of Combined Arms Detachments. Clearly they made the rules expecting Orks to take a second detachment from some other Psyker-friendly faction.

Prior to 7th, the game was like Magic the Gathering being played as a mono-color deck. Pure Red, Pure Black, Pure White, etc sometimes with just a splash of allies for flavor.

Now we're getting into true multi-faction army building which may even help with the balance problems of the game. It allows GW to focus on what each faction does best. If you like melee, you pick up Orks. If you like magic, you pick up Daemons. If you like swarms and swarms of things, you grab Tyranids or Imperial Guard. Building an army has become a matter of picking the right combination of detachments to suit your strategy. This is similar to building a Red/Black deck, or a Green/White weenie rush deck, or a five-color-Legends deck.

The options are limitless because we can FORGE A NARRATIVE!

Until you realize that not everything gets to easily ally

No, it's pretty easy. Ultramarines will happily ally with Tyranids to fight Dark Eldar (you know, just like in the fluff!), they simply have to deploy a foot apart.

dadakkaest wrote:

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
Preliminary winners:
Eldar, Chaos Daemons

Preliminary losers:
Everybody else.

Why? Because when you can create extra units out of thin air every turn, nothing else really matters.

Funny that it took two pages to get it right.

I like this idea. My Eldar get Daemons almost for free. Now I'm going to pick up a bunch of Horror boxes.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Now I'm going to pick up a bunch of Horror boxes.

Exactly.

Welcome to edition: Pink Horrors. All non-eldar, non-daemons players please exit to the left in an orderly fashion,

Having just played a game with the new Tactical Objectives rules, the best Armies will be the ones with fast moving scoring units that can reach/accomplish the right Objectives in time. If you're parked on Obj. 2 and you only get to score points for collecting Obj. 5, you need to move.

Something tells me BA and Orks will get their much deserved boost.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Having just played a game with the new Tactical Objectives rules, the best Armies will be the ones with fast moving scoring units that can reach/accomplish the right Objectives in time. If you're parked on Obj. 2 and you only get to score points for collecting Obj. 5, you need to move.

Something tells me BA and Orks will get their much deserved boost.

BA is overpriced for what it can achieve.

From the RTTs in the 6th ed, Ork players were really struggling. Not sure if this will change. I guess not.

 Triton wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Explain to me why the orks have no psychic defense and cannot stop spells?

Even my Tau can do that, and they dont even have a worthless psyker option.

And assault spill over helps orks more than it hurts. I am so sick of my warboss with 5-6 attacks 1shotting my challenging opponent and wasting the rest of my wounds.

Because this is 7th edition, the age of Combined Arms Detachments. Clearly they made the rules expecting Orks to take a second detachment from some other Psyker-friendly faction.

Prior to 7th, the game was like Magic the Gathering being played as a mono-color deck. Pure Red, Pure Black, Pure White, etc sometimes with just a splash of allies for flavor.

Now we're getting into true multi-faction army building which may even help with the balance problems of the game. It allows GW to focus on what each faction does best. If you like melee, you pick up Orks. If you like magic, you pick up Daemons. If you like swarms and swarms of things, you grab Tyranids or Imperial Guard. Building an army has become a matter of picking the right combination of detachments to suit your strategy. This is similar to building a Red/Black deck, or a Green/White weenie rush deck, or a five-color-Legends deck.

The options are limitless because we can FORGE A NARRATIVE!

Until you realize that not everything gets to easily ally

No, it's pretty easy. Ultramarines will happily ally with Tyranids to fight Dark Eldar (you know, just like in the fluff!), they simply have to deploy a foot apart.

Except Chaos Daemons and IG are come the apocalypse meaning they only work normally if 12" apart and don't benefit from one another like several other armies do. The only way to truly make the statement so is if all armies were BB or all were AoC. At the moment the alliance chart is all over the place and then a big chunk of imperial zerg fest.


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 wuestenfux wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Having just played a game with the new Tactical Objectives rules, the best Armies will be the ones with fast moving scoring units that can reach/accomplish the right Objectives in time. If you're parked on Obj. 2 and you only get to score points for collecting Obj. 5, you need to move.

Something tells me BA and Orks will get their much deserved boost.

BA is overpriced for what it can achieve.

From the RTTs in the 6th ed, Ork players were really struggling. Not sure if this will change. I guess not.

That and it is utterly random what you get, how many points you get, which objectives you need, and is an optional choice that likely many will not play just as many just go hammer of wrath deployment and go standard objective numbers rather than going for the relic and the sorts.

dadakkaest wrote:

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
Preliminary winners:
Eldar, Chaos Daemons

Preliminary losers:
Everybody else.

Why? Because when you can create extra units out of thin air every turn, nothing else really matters.

Funny that it took two pages to get it right.

Meh. Space wolves in drop pods with rune priests will own those suckers before they can produce anything.

 Havok210 wrote:
Since the new edition is out now, I am curious who everyone feels are the winners and losers when it comes to armies. I know it is early, but here are my initial impressions:

Eldar (losers) - Wave Serpents took a hit with Jinx changes. Eldar Psychers may have gotten stronger.

Space Marines (not sure) - from what I have read so far, I am not seeing any real loss or gain for them.

Tau (winners) - I don't see anything that pulls them off their top tier spot, so I would say that is a win.

What do you all think?

pretty much what I thought too....

Winner: Stormraven.

Up side:

1 ) Its is a Vehicle and thus is harder to destroy.

2 ) It is a transport. Transports now protect their riders form psychic powers.

3 ) It is a transport. Transports now can be used by Battle brothers.

4 ) It is a Flyer. Flyers now jink at 4+.

5 ) It is a Flyer. Flyers are still just as hard to hit as they were in 6th. There were a lot of rumor / wish listing that had the flyers taking a nerff of some kind. Like all snap shots would be BS 2.

6 ) It is a Assault Vehicle. Now that Flying Monstrous Creatures were nerffed, It is one of the few ways you can Zoom in one turn and Hover + Assault (with the troops inside), the next. Thats a total move of up to 66' + assault.

7 ) Assault is now a bit more deadly with the changes to how Challenge works. Any unit geared of to assault, transported in a Raven, will take great advantage to the new challenge rules.

8 ) It can transport a Dreadnought. Dreadnought are a Vehicle and thus are harder to destroy, a Venerable even more so. Dreadnoughts also gain Hammer of Wrath. This increases the power potential of their payload.

9 ) They are not a Helldrake and so did not get hit by their nerff of no 360 shooting!


Down side:

1 ) Zooming Flyers can not score. This is a big problem but is mitigated by the fact that a flyer can hover to score.

2 ) Flyers will crash if it surfers a immobilize result on a roll of 1-2 on a d6. Dose this mean Grav weapons are now something to be worried about?

Arent stormravens also immune to melta damage? or is that specific variants? thats another bonus since meltas are pretty much the only weapon thats going to pop vehicles barring some awesome dice luck now lol.

Ravenwing got nut checked pretty hard with the jink nerf making running and gunning obsolete. For an army that runs and guns that is...problematic. The Neph was good for 5 minutes till the FAQ came out.

Good thing too, with all those ravenwing armies brutally tabling people.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Arent stormravens also immune to melta damage? or is that specific variants? thats another bonus since meltas are pretty much the only weapon thats going to pop vehicles barring some awesome dice luck now lol.

Yeh, Marine flyers have Ceramite armour. Meltas don't get the extra d6 AP

The other huge loss to Tau is that Skyfire + Intercept no longer gives full BS skill to ground targets.

tag8833 wrote:
Winners
1) Imperial Knights. Hard to kill before. Just got harder by a lot.
2) Demons. The psychic powers are hug buffs for demons. Demons can put out a ton of psychic dice. Probably not a top tier army yet, but will be a popular ally.
3) Grey Knights. The new psychic powers are buffs, and they pump out a ton of warp charges. Also they are now battle brothers with a lot of armies. Probably not a top tier army yet, but will be a popular ally.
4) Imperial Guard (AM). The new vehicle pen tables are big. The MC debuffs are big.
5) Space Marines. Super scoring Rhinos and Drop pods are ridiculous. Land Raiders are nearly unkillable in many matchups. Walkers are Killing machines.

Losers
1) Tyranids. MC were nerfed in several big ways. FMC's lose vector strikes and can't assault. S6 AP:- can no longer explode anything. Limited AP:2, and no AP:1 weapons.
*Big Gap*
2) Orks. The king of open top vehicles. Squads inside now vulnerable to flamers. Limited AP:2, no AP:1.
3) Dark Eldar. Beaststar is beatable via good deny the witch planning. Lost some battle brothers.
*Big Gap*
4) Tau. Lost of Ovesa Star. Limited ability to deal with armor already, and now worse. New missions favor a moving army not a static gunline. No more Eldar BB. Still a Top tier army.
5) Necrons. Psychic powers get buffed. No Psychers.

The Necrons only really gained from 7e.

Now the guys who really lost from 7e other than the Tyranids would be the Blood Angels who lost fast vehicle from all but ONE model (but still pay the old price) and all their unique psychic powers.

 Kain wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Winners
1) Imperial Knights. Hard to kill before. Just got harder by a lot.
2) Demons. The psychic powers are hug buffs for demons. Demons can put out a ton of psychic dice. Probably not a top tier army yet, but will be a popular ally.
3) Grey Knights. The new psychic powers are buffs, and they pump out a ton of warp charges. Also they are now battle brothers with a lot of armies. Probably not a top tier army yet, but will be a popular ally.
4) Imperial Guard (AM). The new vehicle pen tables are big. The MC debuffs are big.
5) Space Marines. Super scoring Rhinos and Drop pods are ridiculous. Land Raiders are nearly unkillable in many matchups. Walkers are Killing machines.

Losers
1) Tyranids. MC were nerfed in several big ways. FMC's lose vector strikes and can't assault. S6 AP:- can no longer explode anything. Limited AP:2, and no AP:1 weapons.
*Big Gap*
2) Orks. The king of open top vehicles. Squads inside now vulnerable to flamers. Limited AP:2, no AP:1.
3) Dark Eldar. Beaststar is beatable via good deny the witch planning. Lost some battle brothers.
*Big Gap*
4) Tau. Lost of Ovesa Star. Limited ability to deal with armor already, and now worse. New missions favor a moving army not a static gunline. No more Eldar BB. Still a Top tier army.
5) Necrons. Psychic powers get buffed. No Psychers.

The Necrons only really gained from 7e.

Now the guys who really lost from 7e other than the Tyranids would be the Blood Angels who lost fast vehicle from all but ONE model (but still pay the old price) and all their unique psychic powers.

Talk about being kicked while you're down...

 Galorian wrote:

 Kain wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Winners
1) Imperial Knights. Hard to kill before. Just got harder by a lot.
2) Demons. The psychic powers are hug buffs for demons. Demons can put out a ton of psychic dice. Probably not a top tier army yet, but will be a popular ally.
3) Grey Knights. The new psychic powers are buffs, and they pump out a ton of warp charges. Also they are now battle brothers with a lot of armies. Probably not a top tier army yet, but will be a popular ally.
4) Imperial Guard (AM). The new vehicle pen tables are big. The MC debuffs are big.
5) Space Marines. Super scoring Rhinos and Drop pods are ridiculous. Land Raiders are nearly unkillable in many matchups. Walkers are Killing machines.

Losers
1) Tyranids. MC were nerfed in several big ways. FMC's lose vector strikes and can't assault. S6 AP:- can no longer explode anything. Limited AP:2, and no AP:1 weapons.
*Big Gap*
2) Orks. The king of open top vehicles. Squads inside now vulnerable to flamers. Limited AP:2, no AP:1.
3) Dark Eldar. Beaststar is beatable via good deny the witch planning. Lost some battle brothers.
*Big Gap*
4) Tau. Lost of Ovesa Star. Limited ability to deal with armor already, and now worse. New missions favor a moving army not a static gunline. No more Eldar BB. Still a Top tier army.
5) Necrons. Psychic powers get buffed. No Psychers.

The Necrons only really gained from 7e.

Now the guys who really lost from 7e other than the Tyranids would be the Blood Angels who lost fast vehicle from all but ONE model (but still pay the old price) and all their unique psychic powers.

Talk about being kicked while you're down...

Both of you are probably right. I wanted to list 5 winners and 5 losers. But thanks to the FAQ. Blood Angels are more of a loser than Necrons. Still the #1 loser is clearly Tyranids, especially with the FAQ doing nothing but changing wording, and nerfing the already inferior warlord traits. SitW is now a very minor bonus, and Synapse is still a devastating USR that makes their troops inferior, limits their mobility, and puts them at an immediate disadvantage in the new missions.

I really am fine with all of the new rules except for the unplayable army composition rules, but Tyranid wargear, USRs, and Deployment options were designed so poorly that they are crazy inflexible to play. I can't imagine someone looking at their wargear page, and deciding that they have the right tools to compete with other armies in 7th edition.

I guess this is one good thing about having my SOB being ignored, they haven't received any arbitrary nerfs, broken buffs or fluff retconning yet.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Losers: Orks
+Challenge Wounds spill over
+Tougher Vehicles
+Multi Force Org
-Flamer hits on transported troops
-Assault is still gakky
-No psyker that can use a useful discipline
-No psychic defense, cannot stop spells
-gak allies options
-First homebrew 'fixes' for the game are inevitably "feth Orks, remove multi force org - but retain allies because thats fair and also btw feth orks"
-First new codex of the edition, so won't have any idea how the edition plays when they make it

You forgot a big one.

Big Mek's shield was moved from a 5+ Invulnerable save to a 5+ Cover save.
"Hey boss? What are deez lites on us?"

KFF was always a 5+ cover. its rumored to be a 5+ invul in the new codex, since its kinda pointless as a cover now days.

I don't get how awesome wave serpents are...

'Amazing firepower', really? SL and Shield? That sucks against high toughness things, marines, vehicles.

Honestly do the math and they are practically kittens.

Now they die easier because of the massive jink nerf.

Also its harder for Eldar to get powers off against Grey Knights WAY harder. They get like half as much warp charge compared to GKs.

Personally I think Eldar lose in this edition. Except for the seercouncil list. Which is annoying as that's the lost that needed to be nerfed the most.

Winners: Collectors Losers: Gamers

Jacob29 wrote:
I don't get how awesome wave serpents are...

'Amazing firepower', really? SL and Shield? That sucks against high toughness things, marines, vehicles.

Honestly do the math and they are practically kittens.

Now they die easier because of the massive jink nerf.

Also its harder for Eldar to get powers off against Grey Knights WAY harder. They get like half as much warp charge compared to GKs.

Personally I think Eldar lose in this edition. Except for the seercouncil list. Which is annoying as that's the lost that needed to be nerfed the most.

Wow just wow

Wave Serpents suck -

Amazing firepwoer - yep - as a Super scoring troop transport with powerful guns that slaughters opposing dedicated transports and non MBTs

Is incredably durable with good armour - 12/12 and jink and Serpent shield.

They only die "easy" if they use their super death cheese gun - which isn't great against high toughness - heart bleeds

It was cheese before and now its worse

Slaughter opposing transports? What LOL!!!

A s6 weapon against 11/11 needs fives to glance it.

And that's without any buffs. After playing vs Grey Knights using invisibility it is VERY hard to do damage to them and even without it they don't always die.

Jink save is a massive nerf as snap shots make wave serpents do practically 0 damage.

The only thing the shield is amazing at killing is orkz boyz (wow what a sick counter seeing how Boyz are op right) and Fire Warriors maybe and that's if you even get a lot of shots seeing how the average is 4/5.

Remember the golden rule of the internet everyone, "Don't feed the trolls".

 D6Damager wrote:
The other huge loss to Tau is that Skyfire + Intercept no longer gives full BS skill to ground targets.

Nice thing about Tau is our Velocity Tracker is that the model can choose to use Skyfire or not.

 Jaceevoke wrote:
Remember the golden rule of the internet everyone, "Don't feed the trolls".

I dunno if this is referring to me but I do definitely find Wave Serpent's kiling power very unimpressive.

Which for it's points is fine. But people are acting like they can take down Great Unclean Ones..

They usually only get to shoot off 9ish shots a turn at a mix of s6/7 with max AP 6...

8 wounds against 3+ armour is very unimpressive. A lone WS isn't likely to kill a 11 armoured transport in 1 turn.

Unless I have missed something massive in my codex for the past year the serpent shield doesn't slaughter people, it just chips away.

Winners -

GW in the very short run because they re sold a worse 6th edition rulebook with a few changes to their extreme apologist fanboys for $85.00 a pop.
In the long run every other gaming company because of all the new players they are getting.

Losers -

GW in the long run as their just aren't enough apologist fanboys to keep their quarterly statement where the stock holders want to see it.
The extreme apologist fanboys who put up with GW's crap now can't get a game, everyone else quit.

Also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc36Is_6yZw

dresnar1 wrote:
Winners -

GW in the very short run because they re sold a worse 6th edition rulebook with a few changes to their extreme apologist fanboys for $85.00 a pop.
In the long run every other gaming company because of all the new players they are getting.

Losers -

GW in the long run as their just aren't enough apologist fanboys to keep their quarterly statement where the stock holders want to see it.
The extreme apologist fanboys who put up with GW's crap now can't get a game, everyone else quit.

Also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc36Is_6yZw

Baahahaha! It's only that bad if your obsessed with tournament play. Get involved with a crew that likes to play campaigns and scenarios. THATS what 40k was made for. And it's way more fun than pwning people with daemon spam or tau buffmander or some other disgusting unsportsmanlike crap.

I ran into our local "that guy" today at GW. Sure enough, he's building a daemon factory and has already done all the numbers. If he ever shows up at our war gaming club with crap like that I'm going to tell him to piss off. And I know I won't be the only one.


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And if no such club exists in your area, start one! Uni's, independent gaming stores and libraries are good places for them. Make some flyers to leave there and use the internet!

 Kavish wrote:
Baahahaha! It's only that bad if your obsessed with tournament play. Get involved with a crew that likes to play campaigns and scenarios. THATS what 40k was made for. And it's way more fun than pwning people with daemon spam or tau buffmander or some other disgusting unsportsmanlike crap.

I ran into our local "that guy" today at GW. Sure enough, he's building a daemon factory and has already done all the numbers. If he ever shows up at our war gaming club with crap like that I'm going to tell him to piss off. And I know I won't be the only one.

I feel the same way about people who run lists using allies. I'm sure you'd think I was being reasonable if I told you to piss off for not running mono-codex.

Tau - Still an annoying codex, but no longer able to have Buffmanders in a unit with a Riptide, and Taudar is dead, and now you're Snap Firing that Rail Gun. So, hard to say with them.

Eldar - No more Taudar, as I said above. Thank god. But psychic powers (if used moderately), are harder to cast, perils is worse, and typically you can't cast as many powers in a turn, plus wave serpents took a hit. They got put in place, but still over-all an unnecessarily powerful codex.

Tyranids - Good and bad. Overall they have little way to hurt tough vehicles now, aside from Warp Blast, since Smash got nerfed. FMC are harder to ground….in an edition where now you hope they get grounded, since you can't charge the turn you come down, now. Overall, a loser in my book. Was playable before, but no more.

Necrons - Now, I am biased, since I play Necrons, but obvious winners. 13/13/11 skimmers with a better jink, harder to explode, IF they Jink, they're not losing that Serant shield, just some gauss shots, so who cares? Their vehicles can ignore more than half of the Damage chart now. And CHARIOTS. My god the Command Barge is the new OP unit.

Chaos Marines - Everyone hates them apparently, but still strong in my opinion. The Heldrake was finally put in its place, but it still a strong unit, imo.

Chaos Daemons - Cheesy. The new Taudar. I've never played against them, and I never will. Now, I know Screamerstar existed before, but that, on top of Invisibility, and Spawning more daemons? No thanks.

Jacob29 wrote:
Slaughter opposing transports? What LOL!!!

A s6 weapon against 11/11 needs fives to glance it.

And that's without any buffs. After playing vs Grey Knights using invisibility it is VERY hard to do damage to them and even without it they don't always die.

Jink save is a massive nerf as snap shots make wave serpents do practically 0 damage.

The only thing the shield is amazing at killing is orkz boyz (wow what a sick counter seeing how Boyz are op right) and Fire Warriors maybe and that's if you even get a lot of shots seeing how the average is 4/5.

No LOL - just sad truth

its strength 7 not Strength 6 in my Eldar Codex? 3 glances and your tranport is toast. As you say the Average is 4-5 shot - usually twin linked - how does that not slaughter rhinos, immolators etc - do tell?

Wave Serpents = Cheese, everyone knows that.

Tyranids didnt lose that much in their main army, I get an easy potential for up 4 or even 6 flyrants with 2x TL Dev who dont care about the vector striking nerf, are only minorly concerned about the lack of charge after changing altitude as well as the smash hit nerf. But love the fact that they are so much harder to kill through the better jinking and hugely better chances of not being grounded (FMC who shoot well got off ok in this edition, Nids are the only one to have these, they just stay in the air and shoot stuff before getting to a lower altitude).
they also get lost of psychic level which a lot of people here seem to be scared of psycher now, true, my psyker list is kinda meh, but its just barely decent, so im ok with that, for psychic defense I wont be worrying, as a Nid I get lots of psykers.
Psykers dont really scare me that much since I expect people to require 2 warpcharge to cast a lvl1 spell, 4 warpcharges to cast a level 2 spell and 7 warpcharges to cast a lvl3 spell, remember you need a 4+ for it to count. I actually find psykers got nerfed in general (much better spell options for some armies put aside), I like that I get to be a strong denyer of spell as nids but i cast much lesss effeciently then before since I need twice as much warpcharges to cast my spells then before but I only get D6 more warpcharges then before, so if I take more then 3-4lvl of psykers im assuredly losing in casting efficiency compared to before 7th. there are other Wins and loses but Ill stop there

Anyways, yes Nids was a bit of an underdog and maybe they lost a bit of power, but very little all in all.
Now I can put the guys I want however I want. its all about spamming if you want op and our op is just fine to spam if you want to go that route. everyone scoring is awesome

 Lord Lorne Walkier wrote:
Winner: Stormraven.

Up side:

1 ) Its is a Vehicle and thus is harder to destroy.

2 ) It is a transport. Transports now protect their riders form psychic powers.

3 ) It is a transport. Transports now can be used by Battle brothers.

4 ) It is a Flyer. Flyers now jink at 4+.

5 ) It is a Flyer. Flyers are still just as hard to hit as they were in 6th. There were a lot of rumor / wish listing that had the flyers taking a nerff of some kind. Like all snap shots would be BS 2.

6 ) It is a Assault Vehicle. Now that Flying Monstrous Creatures were nerffed, It is one of the few ways you can Zoom in one turn and Hover + Assault (with the troops inside), the next. Thats a total move of up to 66' + assault.

7 ) Assault is now a bit more deadly with the changes to how Challenge works. Any unit geared of to assault, transported in a Raven, will take great advantage to the new challenge rules.

8 ) It can transport a Dreadnought. Dreadnought are a Vehicle and thus are harder to destroy, a Venerable even more so. Dreadnoughts also gain Hammer of Wrath. This increases the power potential of their payload.

9 ) They are not a Helldrake and so did not get hit by their nerff of no 360 shooting!


Down side:

1 ) Zooming Flyers can not score. This is a big problem but is mitigated by the fact that a flyer can hover to score.

2 ) Flyers will crash if it surfers a immobilize result on a roll of 1-2 on a d6. Dose this mean Grav weapons are now something to be worried about?

10) The Aegis Defense Line was removed from the Basic Rule book. Now it might be harder to field them as you might have to also allow the other fortifications in Stronghold Assault. This is the most common Anti Air unit i have run up against.

11 ) It is still the only transport for Jump troops.

Ultramarines: They seemed to have gotten slightly better. I did a few test games with them and the fact that vehicles are able to score helped. Land Raiders got a nice buff with the damage chart change. Having drop pods land near objectives was pretty cool. The changes that Marines really needed did not happen, so I think they stayed put as a mid tier codex.

Tyranids (losers) not like they where really winners to begin with, but the hit to FMC's and there not gaining of any other psyker disciplines kind of means they got the shortest end of the stick? Hell, there my main army and I refuse to play in a tournament now if a GK player is in it, cause it'd be pointless

Kyutaru wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

Actually, as i read it:
"No unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase" - means that you can summon daemons only once per phase. Even if everyone got the knowledge of a psy-power. You can just attempt to do it with any psyker that knows the spell. But just once per phase.

No because there's a part in the wording of a similar paragraph that shows two units with the same powers can both cast those powers. It only bans a unit from casting repeat powers. I thought the same thing as you at first and had to go back and read carefully as that would break the multiple psyker game they were going for, but I found the section that contradicts what you're saying.

This. It even said in that quote "No unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase", as in that unit cannot attempt to cast the same power twice.

krodarklorr wrote:
Tau - Still an annoying codex, but no longer able to have Buffmanders in a unit with a Riptide, and Taudar is dead, and now you're Snap Firing that Rail Gun. So, hard to say with them.

Eldar - No more Taudar, as I said above. Thank god. But psychic powers (if used moderately), are harder to cast, perils is worse, and typically you can't cast as many powers in a turn, plus wave serpents took a hit. They got put in place, but still over-all an unnecessarily powerful codex.

Tyranids - Good and bad. Overall they have little way to hurt tough vehicles now, aside from Warp Blast, since Smash got nerfed. FMC are harder to ground….in an edition where now you hope they get grounded, since you can't charge the turn you come down, now. Overall, a loser in my book. Was playable before, but no more.

Necrons - Now, I am biased, since I play Necrons, but obvious winners. 13/13/11 skimmers with a better jink, harder to explode, IF they Jink, they're not losing that Serant shield, just some gauss shots, so who cares? Their vehicles can ignore more than half of the Damage chart now. And CHARIOTS. My god the Command Barge is the new OP unit.

Chaos Marines - Everyone hates them apparently, but still strong in my opinion. The Heldrake was finally put in its place, but it still a strong unit, imo.

Chaos Daemons - Cheesy. The new Taudar. I've never played against them, and I never will. Now, I know Screamerstar existed before, but that, on top of Invisibility, and Spawning more daemons? No thanks.

Right on point with Necrons and Tau. Daemons im not sold on they got one stupidly OP build that cannot win a tournament because of how long it takes to play and likely will be outlawed because of that and how OP it is otherwise. Screamerstar still screamerstar. At least I can plan to stop Invis now.

Eldar themselves got no worse, Wave Serpents are stronger now that they are undeniably the best super-scoring unit in the game.

Your logic with Tyranids is stupid, they are stronger because you can't ground them as reliably to stop them assaulting thanks to the new swooping-assault changes?? In last edition it wouldn't have stopped them from assaulting even if you did ground them. This is not a buff to FMC's. And then, look at the WS+S+Attacks you are paying for on almost every FMC, they tear it up late game in assault - this is much harder to pull off now. Add in Vector Strikes never being worth it over firing a gun, and the fact that even if they do make it into assault they can no longer use Smash like they could - these guys are undeniably worse, I would much rather take a few more grounding tests thx.


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Eldar and Tau are winners just off the fact alone that they were already the most broken codexs and there was arguably no nerfs to the first one, and no serious nerfs to the second.

You don't need to get better to be a winner, if everyone else who was losing just stays the same or gets worse.

Look at the nerfs given to Space Wolves.

How bout Tyranids ? A low-level codex nerfed even harder.

And sadly, the worst treatment of all was given Blood Angels, who were already at the very bottom rung. Before anyone mentions IC's joining Mephiston, that's one option given compared to every tank now just being a 20-30 pt worse version of the SM one.

Terrible changes.

 Kavish wrote:

Baahahaha! It's only that bad if your obsessed with tournament play. Get involved with a crew that likes to play campaigns and scenarios. THATS what 40k was made for. And it's way more fun than pwning people with daemon spam or tau buffmander or some other disgusting unsportsmanlike crap.

I ran into our local "that guy" today at GW. Sure enough, he's building a daemon factory and has already done all the numbers. If he ever shows up at our war gaming club with crap like that I'm going to tell him to piss off. And I know I won't be the only one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if no such club exists in your area, start one! Uni's, independent gaming stores and libraries are good places for them. Make some flyers to leave there and use the internet!

Or maybe--start playing a game where you'll pay less or no money for rules written by people who give a crap. You know what's better than wasting time negotiating with my opponent not to make an army that passes a subjective standard of "too good"? Just being able to turn up with what we like and play a game without terrible rules making it possible to break the game so badly.