What race have the weakest basic infantry . I meant by their profile not weapons . I think the weakest is tau because they have the same profile as guardsman and they only have WS 2 !!! The fluff told us how well the tau is trained in the fire caste but even normal guardsman can beat them . I think the tau embraced the greater good too much so they don't fight like humans do .

I was under the impression Imperial Guard and Tau would be about equal in terms of physical strength. The lower WS is to do with the fact that while the Tau are well trained; they focus on long-range fighting, rather than close combat. They don't like it, but that doesn't mean they aren't prepared for it at all, just as not much as a guardsman might be.

They are both the weakest physically out of all the basic infantry, but that's because almost everything else (with the exception of Eldar, but they are very agile and fast) is some sort of extremely strong super-human or alien.

A single ripper, grot, or nurgling is pretty weedy.

 Kain wrote:
A single ripper, grot, or nurgling is pretty weedy.

While this is true, in the context of the game, in my opinion only grots could be classed basic infantry.

Buy yeah, grots, definately

If we take a tactical space marine, a standard chaos marine, a guardian, a kabalite, a standard battle sister, an ork boy, a fire warrior, a gaunt, a standard grey knight, a necron warrior and a guardsmen (im ignoring daemons as they dont really have a standard troop choice, but all the lesser daemons are far from being the weakest on this list anyway), then i would say that the *trophy* would have to go to the guardsmen (fire warrior may have worse stat line but they have better wargear)

Its the Fire Warrior, because if you read the OP he says to keep wargear out of the equation.

I don't mean wargear just normal profile


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hey bobthero I am typing before you post

While I agree its the Guardsman, it should be pointed out that a Guardian isn't even a soldier, but rather a desperate militia member (Black Guardians are different). They still beat Guardsmen, because they are faster and have better instincts, but they are the one basic troop who's primary purpose isn't on the battlefield.

I wonder if the Eldar civilians are truly more skilled than Human soldiers at combat, or if its really just their natural precision and psker (divination) ability.

Eldar civilians are trained soldiers as well.

I would say a Tau Fire Warrior if we take their equipment out of the equation. They aren't strong melee fighters and have poor sight without their fancy visual systems.

Grots.

Tau have the weakest basic infantry. Grots aren't the basic infantry of a Waaaagh, Ork Boyz are.


Tau are human stats, but with WS and Initiative 2.

the Tau are bad at melee because the training they do receive isn't actually practical. Its more of a stylized exercise regime than actual melee training. Meaning its useless on the battlefield. Its like trying to use Tai-chi against a Green Beret. You're gonna go down like a ninny before you can blink.

Nothing says weak like Grots being food for the Boys as well as a Ork troop.

Another vote for Grots.

Fluff gives Fire Warriors a lot more credit than the tabletop does, I think. I'm not actually sure, but I believe Fire Warriors are slightly genetically enhanced and they're described as being bulky and well-muscled on average, being the warrior caste. Their skin is also a lot thicker than that of a human, I think. Ultimately, Fire Warriors have better training than a Guardsman, so I'd put them slightly above them.

In terms of physical strength, however, the Eldar are probably the weakest. While probably stronger than humans of their size and innately suited for combat, Eldar are lithe and agile. I'd say that, while capable of taking marginally more damage than a human, their physical strength is not beyond that of a Guardsman. Have you seen the biceps on those guys?

I have to agree with the above, though; grots aren't basic infantry. Here's a question, though: which is tougher, a unarmoured Space Marine or an Ork?

On average compared to the other Tau castes.

Compared to humans they're just hitting comparable strength compared to humans. Combined with poorer reflexes and overall coordination as a baseline. You need an above average fire warrior to compete with an average human physically speaking.

Sure, he might be able to bench press the same amount. but he's not going to be able to throw punches or dodge as effectively as the human. And on uneven ground he's going to lose his footing more easily.

Grots are troops choices, aren't they? How does that not make them basic infantry. While Boyz are undoubtedly more effective, the fluff I've read tends to have a high proportion of grots as well.

Why settle with Guardsmen when you can go yet another step lower to Conscripts?

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Why settle with Guardsmen when you can go yet another step lower to Conscripts?

I wouldn't count concripts as basic infantry. They would appear much less than regular guardmen, fluffwise and on the tabletop.

Ain't no more fodderish fodder then fluff Guardsmen

Chaos.

The only faction where "farmers with pitchforks" are considered acceptable infantry.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Chaos.

The only faction where "farmers with pitchforks" are considered acceptable infantry.

In-game you only see cultists with guns. But the former is very weak, with worse saves than guardsmen.

In-game they're basically worse guardsmen.

In the fluff though, Cultists range from being traitor guard/arbites/whathaveyou to being civilians who just embraced Chaos.

Chaos has no problem throwing hordes of civilians armed with butter knives and spoons at a tank regiment if it served a purpose. Even the Imperium (generally) doesn't sink that low.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
In-game they're basically worse guardsmen.

In the fluff though, Cultists range from being traitor guard/arbites/whathaveyou to being civilians who just embraced Chaos.

Chaos has no problem throwing hordes of civilians armed with butter knives and spoons at a tank regiment if it served a purpose. Even the Imperium (generally) doesn't sink that low.

Is that not 'frateris militia'?

As far as I'm aware, even the Frateris Militia has at least rudimentary combat training and equipment.

edit- I looked them up on Lexicanum, and they are indeed basically just an angry mob of civilians armed with butter knives and spoons. However, there is this line here:

In general though the clergy is wary of raising a force of Frateris Militia. Mobs of ill-trained zealous fanatics are not only hard to control but can be as much a danger to themselves as they can the enemy; they are equally liable to kill innocent civilians in their attempt to get at the foes of mankind.

Which ties into my point that the Imperium generally avoids creating a militia force such as that. Chaos by comparison doesn't really seem to care.

As for the ork boy vs marine without armor:


Fluff wise marines are easily stronger and just as tough. They are also faster and tend to be better trained at H2H.

Orks are slightly tougher only due to their tendancy to not die unless you cut their head off or explode their chest cavity.



Where the ork boy beats the marine is in sheer numbers. Since orks reproduce in an incredibly efficient manor, there is no way for marine population to keep up with them on a global scale.


Thrown on a planet with no way to get supplies or backup, 20 marines will certainly kill 10,000 ork boys before they die, but after 2-300 years the marines will eventually be killed off.

This is what happens when you let a bunch of heretics onto the forums.

The Imperial Guardsman is the epitome of strength. Armed with an unshakeable faith in the one true emperor, a Guardsman is invincible. A force to strike fear in the corrupt heart of every putrid xenos polluting the Emperor's glorious galaxy.

 TheSilo wrote:
This is what happens when you let a bunch of heretics onto the forums.

The Imperial Guardsman is the epitome of punching bag. Armed with a delusional faith in the false emperor, Guardsmen are slaughtered in billions. A force to induce laughter in the corrupt heart of every xenos overrunning the Emperor's fragile hold on the Imperium.

ftfy

Eihnlazer wrote:
Thrown on a planet with no way to get supplies or backup, 20 marines will certainly kill 10,000 ork boys before they die

I think that's overestimating the Marines just a bit...

 TheSilo wrote:
This is what happens when you let a bunch of heretics onto the forums.

The Imperial Guardsman is the epitome of strength. Armed with an unshakeable faith in the one true emperor, a Guardsman is invincible. A force to strike fear in the corrupt heart of every putrid xenos polluting the Emperor's glorious galaxy.

More like delicious appetizers to spice up the flavor of the planets they're standing on amirite fellow Tyranid players?

 Troike wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
Thrown on a planet with no way to get supplies or backup, 20 marines will certainly kill 10,000 ork boys before they die

I think that's overestimating the Marines just a bit...

It depends. I could totally see 20 Marines from Space Marine do that.

And Space Marine is just as canon as anything else.

Pretty sure none of space marine is canon...

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Troike wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
Thrown on a planet with no way to get supplies or backup, 20 marines will certainly kill 10,000 ork boys before they die

I think that's overestimating the Marines just a bit...

It depends. I could totally see 20 Marines from Space Marine do that.

And Space Marine is just as canon as anything else.

Captain Titus' player must have some seriously loaded dice.

@Ashirya

At least until you get on the business end of a Leman Russ battle tank. Who's genetically inferior now?!

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Troike wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
Thrown on a planet with no way to get supplies or backup, 20 marines will certainly kill 10,000 ork boys before they die

I think that's overestimating the Marines just a bit...

It depends. I could totally see 20 Marines from Space Marine do that.

And Space Marine is just as canon as anything else.

Yes, but that is due to gameplay factors rather than fluff factors. The Orks in that game are designed to be a steady stream of mooks for the player to wade through. The game also lets Marines completely heal themselves just by killing an enemy in a particularly bloody fashion.

pm713 wrote:
Pretty sure none of space marine is canon...

It's just as canon as anything else.

@Leman Russ:

Russes are bad and should feel bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Troike wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Troike wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
Thrown on a planet with no way to get supplies or backup, 20 marines will certainly kill 10,000 ork boys before they die

I think that's overestimating the Marines just a bit...

It depends. I could totally see 20 Marines from Space Marine do that.

And Space Marine is just as canon as anything else.

Yes, but that is due to gameplay factors rather than fluff factors. The Orks in that game are designed to be a steady stream of mooks for the player to wade through. The game also lets Marines completely heal themselves just by killing an enemy in a particularly bloody fashion.

And the same does not apply to the 40K game because?...

pm713 wrote:
Pretty sure none of space marine is canon...

40k has no canon.

Everything is what you choose to interpret of it.

 Ashiraya wrote:
And the same does not apply to the 40K game because?...

Aren't you often saying that the gameplay doesn't really reflect the fluff?

 Kain wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Pretty sure none of space marine is canon...

40k has no canon.

Everything is what you choose to interpret of it.

If my interpretation is nine-foot Space Marines who laugh at LRBTs then you can do nothing but gnash your teeth and mutter about fanwank.

I love 40K.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Troike wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
And the same does not apply to the 40K game because?...

Aren't you often saying that the gameplay doesn't really reflect the fluff?

It doesn't. It is still just as canon- it does not trump fluff, however. That is what I protest against ('Battle Cannons are AP3- this makes the opinion that they ignore PA uncontestable!')

Pick what you like.

 Kain wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Pretty sure none of space marine is canon...

40k has no canon.

Everything is what you choose to interpret of it.

Everyone is Alpharius.

Therefore, Alpharius is simultaneously both the best and worst basic infantry.

/thread.

 liquidjoshi wrote:

 Kain wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Pretty sure none of space marine is canon...

40k has no canon.

Everything is what you choose to interpret of it.

Everyone is Alpharius.

Therefore, Alpharius is simultaneously both the best and worst basic infantry.

/thread.

And the Emperor is a time lord.

And everyone is Jesus in purgatory.

/WMG memes.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Eldar civilians are trained soldiers as well.

I would say a Tau Fire Warrior if we take their equipment out of the equation. They aren't strong melee fighters and have poor sight without their fancy visual systems.

The Tau actually have very good eyesight. The problem is that they take longer to focus. You know how you can switch from close range vision to long range vision in a flash just by moving your eyes? Well, for Tau it takes longer. That's why they're so focused on long range combat. It gives them time to focus, without the chaotic shifting aspect of close quarters.

Meh, I like to think that Schmuckbait the Corrupted Space Marine goes splat when a shell able to blow up tanks and dig really big holes fall on him.

Same deal for Schmuckbait the Eternally not Corrupted.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Eldar civilians are trained soldiers as well.

I would say a Tau Fire Warrior if we take their equipment out of the equation. They aren't strong melee fighters and have poor sight without their fancy visual systems.

The Tau actually have very good eyesight. The problem is that they take longer to focus. You know how you can switch from close range vision to long range vision in a flash just by moving your eyes? Well, for Tau it takes longer. That's why they're so focused on long range combat. It gives them time to focus, without the chaotic shifting aspect of close quarters.

That doesn't sound like good eyesight to me.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Meh, I like to think that Schmuckbait the Corrupted Space Marine goes splat when a shell able to blow up tanks and dig really big holes fall on him.

Same deal for Schmuckbait the Eternally not Corrupted.

Of course you do, look at your avatar.

On the front, does Godzilla beat a Space Marine? One on one with prep time.

 liquidjoshi wrote:
On the front, does Godzilla beat a Space Marine? One on one with prep time.

Godzilla's pretty much a much bigger and stompier Carnifex, so I'd say he would probably win

Considering the entire point of the Tau codex is to slap enough awesome wargear on us to make up for what are undoubtedly some of the worst stat-lines in the game, I'd have to say Tau.

The thing about Tau Fire Warriors is that they aren't the equivalent of Imperial Guardsmen. Guardsmen are selected from the best troops available. Fire Warriors are pretty much just everyone the Fire Caste has to offer. Guardsmen outclassing FW isn't surprising, even if humans are not inherently better fighters than tau.

I'd say that the worst 'basic troops' for the playable factions going by background are Chaos Cultists. The very best of them manage to be almost as good as guardsmen.

 Perfect Organism wrote:
The thing about Tau Fire Warriors is that they aren't the equivalent of Imperial Guardsmen. Guardsmen are selected from the best troops available. Fire Warriors are pretty much just everyone the Fire Caste has to offer. Guardsmen outclassing FW isn't surprising, even if humans are not inherently better fighters than tau.

It's not like the Tau just recruit randomly when they need more soldiers, the Fire Caste are born into their role and they receive lots of training - more than the average Imperial Guardsman (unless it's a world like Cadia). Imperial Guardsman may be the best, but that's the best of the worst (the PDF). Regiments from worlds like Cadia, Catachan and Krieg aren't what the average Guardsman are like.

 Perfect Organism wrote:
The thing about Tau Fire Warriors is that they aren't the equivalent of Imperial Guardsmen. Guardsmen are selected from the best troops available. Fire Warriors are pretty much just everyone the Fire Caste has to offer. Guardsmen outclassing FW isn't surprising, even if humans are not inherently better fighters than tau.

I'd say that the worst 'basic troops' for the playable factions going by background are Chaos Cultists. The very best of them manage to be almost as good as guardsmen.

How can you people discount Grotz?

Fluff wise Ork armies / warbands / waaaaghs -always- show up with more Grotz than actually boyz, they're just so terrible that no one notices. Even your run of the mill Chaos Cultist with a frying pan and a dull steak knife would be able to beat out a grot 1v1.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Perfect Organism wrote:
The thing about Tau Fire Warriors is that they aren't the equivalent of Imperial Guardsmen. Guardsmen are selected from the best troops available. Fire Warriors are pretty much just everyone the Fire Caste has to offer. Guardsmen outclassing FW isn't surprising, even if humans are not inherently better fighters than tau.

I'd say that the worst 'basic troops' for the playable factions going by background are Chaos Cultists. The very best of them manage to be almost as good as guardsmen.

How can you people discount Grotz?

Fluff wise Ork armies / warbands / waaaaghs -always- show up with more Grotz than actually boyz, they're just so terrible that no one notices. Even your run of the mill Chaos Cultist with a frying pan and a dull steak knife would be able to beat out a grot 1v1.

Except the Grots are really just along for the ride, they're there to fix stuff, shoot the enemy with any accuracy, a quick snack, or just be an annoyance.

Its the Boyz that do the actual fighting.

If Space Marine is Canon, then all of it is, including murderously accurate Tankbustas, freakin' scary stealth Bomb Squigs, Ard boy Nobz that can just shug off repeated Melta and Lascannon hits..

Are you SURE you want to do this

As to my vote, Grots. They are basic infantry, being a codex troop choice. They have worse stats than TAU, FFS. In the fluff they do a chunk of the fighting too, in swarms of stabby little gits.

We may want to clarify whether we are defining basic infantry as codex choices in the troop slot here, or fluff-wise?

I can't thing of anything generally worse that's still a troop choice, as even Nurglings and Tau-in-CC beat them out

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Perfect Organism wrote:
The thing about Tau Fire Warriors is that they aren't the equivalent of Imperial Guardsmen. Guardsmen are selected from the best troops available. Fire Warriors are pretty much just everyone the Fire Caste has to offer. Guardsmen outclassing FW isn't surprising, even if humans are not inherently better fighters than tau.

It's not like the Tau just recruit randomly when they need more soldiers, the Fire Caste are born into their role and they receive lots of training - more than the average Imperial Guardsman (unless it's a world like Cadia). Imperial Guardsman may be the best, but that's the best of the worst (the PDF). Regiments from worlds like Cadia, Catachan and Krieg aren't what the average Guardsman are like.

There is no such thing as an average guardsmen. No 2 worlds are the same. What makes the guard better than the Tau is the ability to bring out soldiers who live and know the battlefield. Planet filled with ash and lava? there will be a few million regiments of soldier who have lived and fought on planets exactly like it. Mountains of ice and snow? Millions more regiments used to exactly that. Need numbers to run against a wall? Regiments for that too?

There are not enough fire warriors and not enough experience to go around such a small army.

You say fire warriors are trained from birth? I can assure you there are millions of humans trained from birth to fight. Born into the army? Yet again, millions more regiments.

I know it sounds childish, but whatever the tau infantry have in terms of experience and training, there will also be countless humans who can too, let alone the humans that can out do the tau.

There is no way to account for the average human though, each world has its own set of skills, advantages and disadvantages. This is what makes the guard strong and is the very reason it survives. I would always trust an imperial regiment of infantry over a force of fire warriors. Even if the choice of human regiments was out of a mixed bag.

The PDF arent the worst either. As usual no 2 worlds are the same. PDF can be anything, just like the guard.

So I too, am not surprised that Guardsmen are considered better (if they are).



My vote goes towards Tau for the worst average troops. Unless things like grots etc are included.

 Metaljunx wrote:
The fluff told us how well the tau is trained in the fire caste but even normal guardsman can beat them . I think the tau embraced the greater good too much so they don't fight like humans do .

There's more to combat training than hand-to-hand combat. Discipline drills, weapons training, developing a sense of comradery between the soldiers, education, etc.

Okay, people who are saying tau have to stop their silliness.

The easiest way to see who has the weakest infantry is to simply take their statline (minus armor save), and add all the numbers together.

If you do this, then you get...

Ork Boy - 25
Guardsmen/Cultist - 24
Firewarriors - 22
Conscript - 20
Gretchin - 18


So there you have it. GEq and orks are about the same, followed by firewarriors, who are slightly worse, and then it escalates from there to conscripts and grots.

Firewarriors may have WS2, but so do conscripts and grots, and the latter are stuck with LD5, along with other sources of 2's in their statlines.

 Troike wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
Thrown on a planet with no way to get supplies or backup, 20 marines will certainly kill 10,000 ork boys before they die

I think that's overestimating the Marines just a bit...

not really. If one chapters company is supposed to be as strong as it says at least. depending, personally, I like the idea of 1 marine being worth more than 100 guardsmen because, it brings a little be more believability to how a company of 100 odd marines and some armor can hold out vs ork waaaghs. (and to how they are effective at all with so few numbers).

the tabletop turns a marines power down a lot, sadly. But hey, gotta sell models! haha.

1 marine could, without armor and just his boltgun, probably kill about 10 ork boyz. especially if they are sluggas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
back on topic, tau- they aren't even really better shots than normal IG guardsmen and will get beat to a pulp in melee. OFC, fancy gear is fancy.

 raiden wrote:
not really

Yeah, still standing by that estimate being a bit ridiculous in terms of what it's saying about the power of Marines. One Space Marine isn't worth 500 Orks, that's just going into silly levels of overpowered. If that's the case, then what is the point of the other races even being in the fluff? ...Does that sound like a fun setting to be in if you're not a Marine fan?

raiden wrote:I like the idea of 1 marine being worth more than 100 guardsmen because, it brings a little be more believability to how a company of 100 odd marines and some armor can hold out vs ork waaaghs. (and to how they are effective at all with so few numbers).

But people often get this one wrong. Yes, a small contingent of marines can hold out against much larger numbers, but it's not because each marine is individually 100 supermen rolled into one. The reason space marines are gods on the battlefield isn't because they're individually practically invincible.

The reason space marines can do so well is because of an incredible logistics system, on the one hand, and their extreme tactical acumen, on the other. Space marines win wars because they show up out of nowhere with overwhelming force concentration and destroy their enemies in detail, or because they can hole up in uber defensive positions that makes their enemies' numbers worthless. Where the fact that space marines are individually a little bit better is what makes all the difference.

Space marines win because they're smart, not because an individual marine can roflstomp anything and everything with no effort required. Space marines would have a bland, awful fluff if that was true.

Thats true, marines are a multiplicative force, but more often than not in the fluff the guards flashlights do little more than leave a blackened mark on there power armor.

Not that they are invincible at all, but they are one of the damned hardest things to kill in the setting. Aside from some of the bug stuff but eh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Troike wrote:

 raiden wrote:
not really

Yeah, still standing by that estimate being a bit ridiculous in terms of what it's saying about the power of Marines. One Space Marine isn't worth 500 Orks, that's just going into silly levels of overpowered. If that's the case, then what is the point of the other races even being in the fluff? ...Does that sound like a fun setting to be in if you're not a Marine fan?

thats normal ork boyz, or guardsmen. That being said, I never said 1 marine was worth 500 orks, but 10 marines are worth several thousands in almost all the novels because of how they operate. As another poster has stated.

1 marine would be able to kill about 20 orks, but he would have a rough time. 1 marine vs 500? that marine is dead, he may set off a reactor and blow himself and all the other 500 orks up, but he is dead. lol. (also, this is coming from someone who is just as avid an IG fan)

I love all races, in truth, I believe they all have their place, but I agree with both Raiden and Ailaros.

Marines are extremely few. As in, there's millions, if not billions, if not trillions, if not quadrillions (Etc) of Guardsmen whereas there is but one million Marines.

Neither the power to kill a hundred Orks nor the tactical acumen they are famed for would be enough. It is all those factors combined that make up for their low numbers and make them such a relevant force as they are.

It makes most sense that way.

Remember that Space Marines are trained in and capable at all forms of warfare. This includes fighting a far more numerous foe, or a siege.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I love all races, in truth, I believe they all have their place, but I agree with both Raiden and Ailaros.

Marines are extremely few. As in, there's millions, if not billions, if not trillions, if not quadrillions (Etc) of Guardsmen whereas there is but one million Marines.

Neither the power to kill a hundred Orks nor the tactical acumen they are famed for would be enough. It is all those factors combined that make up for their low numbers and make them such a relevant force as they are.

It makes most sense that way.

Remember that Space Marines are trained in and capable at all forms of warfare. This includes fighting a far more numerous foe, or a siege.

And this is why I play Space Marines. Shame their Codex doesn't do them any justice.

Space marines can wade through a lot of lasgun fire, sure. In game terms, it takes NINE guardsmen spraying at a space marine with rapid fire weapons to force one down. That's pretty beefy.

But it's not friggin invincible. Space marines have good equipment and are good fighters, but they tend to lose and lose badly in pitched battles because they're not THAT much better than regular humans.

Which is why space marines never fight pitched battles. It's what they have the imperial guard for. Space marines are smart enough to get into situations where they don't have 9 guardsmen with lasguns pointing at them at once. They know how to attack weakness, not get sucked into grinding battles of attrition they can't win.

From a body to body comparison, straight up it has to be grots.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I love all races, in truth, I believe they all have their place, but I agree with both Raiden and Ailaros.

Marines are extremely few. As in, there's millions, if not billions, if not trillions, if not quadrillions (Etc) of Guardsmen whereas there is but one million Marines.

Neither the power to kill a hundred Orks nor the tactical acumen they are famed for would be enough. It is all those factors combined that make up for their low numbers and make them such a relevant force as they are.

It makes most sense that way.

Remember that Space Marines are trained in and capable at all forms of warfare. This includes fighting a far more numerous foe, or a siege.

And this is why I play Space Marines. Shame their Codex doesn't do them any justice.

Unbound exists. Use an army of 100% captains or chapter masters. Movie Marines?

Have fun!

 Ailaros wrote:
Space marines can wade through a lot of lasgun fire, sure. In game terms, it takes NINE guardsmen spraying at a space marine with rapid fire weapons to force one down. That's pretty beefy.

But it's not friggin invincible. Space marines have good equipment and are good fighters, but they tend to lose and lose badly in pitched battles because they're not THAT much better than regular humans.

Which is why space marines never fight pitched battles. It's what they have the imperial guard for. Space marines are smart enough to get into situations where they don't have 9 guardsmen with lasguns pointing at them at once. They know how to attack weakness, not get sucked into grinding battles of attrition they can't win.

You forgot to throw in a few 'In my opinion...' there.

Aside from your first segment, what you are saying is not objective, but this is what you seem to be implying.

Start providing some evidence of space marines winning long battles of attrition while massively outnumbered in open, pitched battles.

In every example of SM fluff that I can think of, SM are never that stupid.

 Ailaros wrote:
Start providing some evidence of space marines winning long battles of attrition while massively outnumbered in open, pitched battles.

In every example of SM fluff that I can think of, SM are never that stupid.

As far as I know, sieges and similar gruelling battles of attrition is exactly what the Iron Warriors excel at.

Storm of Iron? Sure they had human auxiliaries but the IW did most of the job.

Well, without equipment I'd say a Tau Firewarrior.

There's gotta be some IF stuff on that front too, surely?

Also, note I said 20 marines would beat 2000 orks any day because of there increased strength durability, AND there tactics. They wouldn't fight in an open field, they would strike and retreat hitting key parts of the enemy the entire time.

 liquidjoshi wrote:
There's gotta be some IF stuff on that front too, surely?

Yep, IF too.

They are great at 'line duty', even if they of course excel at all other types of warfare as well like Marines tend to.

Yes, when an ENTIRE LEGION OF SPACE MARINES descended on a single planet back during the early days, they could certainly beat some face. That doesn't happen anymore, though. Not even close.

Even then, they're not that great of an example for this, because the iron warriors, at least, were there to make lightning assaults at the beginning or end of campaigns. All of that talk of iron warriors besieging stuff cloaks the fact that they had vast armies of traitor guardsmen who did a majority of the work.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yes, when an ENTIRE LEGION OF SPACE MARINES descended on a single planet back during the early days, they could certainly beat some face. That doesn't happen anymore, though. Not even close.

Even then, they're not that great of an example for this, because the iron warriors, at least, were there to make lightning assaults at the beginning or end of campaigns. All of that talk of iron warriors besieging stuff cloaks the fact that they had vast armies of traitor guardsmen who did a majority of the work.

Storm of Iron was not during 'early days'

Neither was it a whole Legion.

Neither did their 'vast armies' do the majority of the work.

It was a gruelling siege, simply.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To put it like this; Marines are proficient at all kinds of warfare. This we know. Does anything more have to be said?

 TheSilo wrote:
This is what happens when you let a bunch of heretics onto the forums.

The Imperial Guardsman is the epitome of strength. Armed with an unshakeable faith in the one true emperor, a Guardsman is invincible. A force to strike fear in the corrupt heart of every putrid xenos polluting the Emperor's glorious galaxy.

Equipped with his mighty lasgun with which to vanquish the foes of the Emperor!

Or at least play the little-red-dot game with errant squigs..

 Ascalam wrote:
If Space Marine is Canon, then all of it is, including murderously accurate Tankbustas, freakin' scary stealth Bomb Squigs, Ard boy Nobz that can just shug off repeated Melta and Lascannon hits..

Are you SURE you want to do this

As to my vote, Grots. They are basic infantry, being a codex troop choice. They have worse stats than TAU, FFS. In the fluff they do a chunk of the fighting too, in swarms of stabby little gits.

We may want to clarify whether we are defining basic infantry as codex choices in the troop slot here, or fluff-wise?

I can't thing of anything generally worse that's still a troop choice, as even Nurglings and Tau-in-CC beat them out

I wish TT Orks were as good as Relic Orks.

Relic is definitely an Ork loving company.

 Kain wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:
If Space Marine is Canon, then all of it is, including murderously accurate Tankbustas, freakin' scary stealth Bomb Squigs, Ard boy Nobz that can just shug off repeated Melta and Lascannon hits..

Are you SURE you want to do this

As to my vote, Grots. They are basic infantry, being a codex troop choice. They have worse stats than TAU, FFS. In the fluff they do a chunk of the fighting too, in swarms of stabby little gits.

We may want to clarify whether we are defining basic infantry as codex choices in the troop slot here, or fluff-wise?

I can't thing of anything generally worse that's still a troop choice, as even Nurglings and Tau-in-CC beat them out

I wish TT Orks were as good as Relic Orks.

Relic is definitely an Ork loving company.

You bet they are. Catachans hit harder than 'Uge Choppa Nobz in retail Retribution.

wait wtf

And stormtroopers hellguns have longer range than lasguns, of if only :(

And the Manticore can re-spawn its missiles.

 Bobthehero wrote:
And stormtroopers hellguns have longer range than lasguns, of if only :(

And the Manticore can re-spawn its missiles.

The manticore thing I assume is okay. The Guard probably have supply lines but having units for that is just too much clutter. That much abstraction is OK. In my mod, I may increase its cooldown and damage though as right now it is rather short but deals low damage considering the size of the missiles...

May change Hellguns to do plasma damage but have equal DPS to Lasguns? Maybe that would make sense?

Or no, they would probably do a bit more damage than that. At least like 3-4 lasguns even against unarmoured targets.

I am sorta mod-obsessed atm as I just got back to working on it. Sorry.

Tau. Ignoring Wargear, they're absolutely miserable considering their lack of melee skills and poor eyesight. Even the most pathetic Chaos Cultists armed with butter knives mentioned earlier could take a Tau Firewarrior in a fight ignoring wargear. However if they count, Grots definitely take the cake as the most pathetic infantry.

As for Astartes, it's the fluff. They go so high that I can even pull an example of a Space Marine psyker who turned into a bloody super sayain, no exaggeration involved at all.

Maybe the deal with Grots vs Fire Warriors is that you fully expect the Grots to be worthless. That's their job.

But Fire Warriors are supposed to be the pride of the Tau Empire. Their staunch defenders. Yet they almost seem to completely ignore the existence of melee combat and don't teach anything practical. Not even techniques to disengage from melee so you can bring your ranged weapons to bear.

Its a serious hole in Tau doctrine.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Maybe the deal with Grots vs Fire Warriors is that you fully expect the Grots to be worthless. That's their job.

But Fire Warriors are supposed to be the pride of the Tau Empire. Their staunch defenders. Yet they almost seem to completely ignore the existence of melee combat and don't teach anything practical. Not even techniques to disengage from melee so you can bring your ranged weapons to bear.

Its a serious hole in Tau doctrine.

Tau Fire Warriors with Hit and Run would cost more points. GW can't allow this- it would mean you need less of them for the same army size.

Grots definitely. It's their job, as was said, they are intentionally the weakest, cheapest troops in the game (though conscripts are just as cheap and alot better in every way).
Firewarriors are kinda junk without gear.
Clumsy, half blind and spend too much time thinking about being nice, thus, not enough thinking about how to krump heads.

Grey Templar wrote:But Fire Warriors are supposed to be the pride of the Tau Empire. Their staunch defenders. Yet they almost seem to completely ignore the existence of melee combat

They don't have to. Hell, even the US army doesn't teach bayonet drill anymore.

And Firewarriors should be proud, they're a very, very effective fighting unit. Firewarriors aren't bad, it's just that their statline is somewhat crummy, but that's because they're tau. They're the best of what you can make of them, racially. Well, without giving them even better equipment.

Your complaint is akin to saying that stormtroopers should have a lot better statline because they're the best humanity has to offer. Which is true, but that doesn't mean their statline is going to be the same as super-human space marines.

It's amazing how everybody seems to think that tau have bad eyesight even though the only place where that is mentioned (IIRC) is The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, which is officially propaganda.

If GW carry on shafting BA at the rate they are, my money is on death company marines. Take a few of them to take down a grot in a years time...

 Ailaros wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:But Fire Warriors are supposed to be the pride of the Tau Empire. Their staunch defenders. Yet they almost seem to completely ignore the existence of melee combat

They don't have to. Hell, even the US army doesn't teach bayonet drill anymore.

And Firewarriors should be proud, they're a very, very effective fighting unit. Firewarriors aren't bad, it's just that their statline is somewhat crummy, but that's because they're tau. They're the best of what you can make of them, racially. Well, without giving them even better equipment.

Your complaint is akin to saying that stormtroopers should have a lot better statline because they're the best humanity has to offer. Which is true, but that doesn't mean their statline is going to be the same as super-human space marines.

No, but the US army does still teach close combat techniques.

And Stormtroopers already have a pretty good statline. No complaints there.

Meh, they should have the stat line of a Grenadier.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:
If Space Marine is Canon, then all of it is, including murderously accurate Tankbustas, freakin' scary stealth Bomb Squigs, Ard boy Nobz that can just shug off repeated Melta and Lascannon hits..

Are you SURE you want to do this

As to my vote, Grots. They are basic infantry, being a codex troop choice. They have worse stats than TAU, FFS. In the fluff they do a chunk of the fighting too, in swarms of stabby little gits.

We may want to clarify whether we are defining basic infantry as codex choices in the troop slot here, or fluff-wise?

I can't thing of anything generally worse that's still a troop choice, as even Nurglings and Tau-in-CC beat them out

I wish TT Orks were as good as Relic Orks.

Relic is definitely an Ork loving company.

You bet they are. Catachans hit harder than 'Uge Choppa Nobz in retail Retribution.

wait wtf

There are people who don't use the hammers of kill everything?

 Kain wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:
If Space Marine is Canon, then all of it is, including murderously accurate Tankbustas, freakin' scary stealth Bomb Squigs, Ard boy Nobz that can just shug off repeated Melta and Lascannon hits..

Are you SURE you want to do this

As to my vote, Grots. They are basic infantry, being a codex troop choice. They have worse stats than TAU, FFS. In the fluff they do a chunk of the fighting too, in swarms of stabby little gits.

We may want to clarify whether we are defining basic infantry as codex choices in the troop slot here, or fluff-wise?

I can't thing of anything generally worse that's still a troop choice, as even Nurglings and Tau-in-CC beat them out

I wish TT Orks were as good as Relic Orks.

Relic is definitely an Ork loving company.

You bet they are. Catachans hit harder than 'Uge Choppa Nobz in retail Retribution.

wait wtf

There are people who don't use the hammers of kill everything?

To be fair, the hammers' base damage is less than 10% higher than the choppas'.

It is the stacking damage buff that quickly gets ridiculous.

My point stands- a 5 model swiss army knife T1 unit should not outdamage a dedicated heavy melee T3 unit that also is more expensive and lacks all the utility abilities and ludicrous ranged damage of the former...

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:
If Space Marine is Canon, then all of it is, including murderously accurate Tankbustas, freakin' scary stealth Bomb Squigs, Ard boy Nobz that can just shug off repeated Melta and Lascannon hits..

Are you SURE you want to do this

As to my vote, Grots. They are basic infantry, being a codex troop choice. They have worse stats than TAU, FFS. In the fluff they do a chunk of the fighting too, in swarms of stabby little gits.

We may want to clarify whether we are defining basic infantry as codex choices in the troop slot here, or fluff-wise?

I can't thing of anything generally worse that's still a troop choice, as even Nurglings and Tau-in-CC beat them out

I wish TT Orks were as good as Relic Orks.

Relic is definitely an Ork loving company.

You bet they are. Catachans hit harder than 'Uge Choppa Nobz in retail Retribution.

wait wtf

There are people who don't use the hammers of kill everything?

To be fair, the hammers' base damage is less than 10% higher than the choppas'.

It is the stacking damage buff that quickly gets ridiculous.

My point stands- a 5 model swiss army knife T1 unit should not outdamage a dedicated heavy melee T3 unit that also is more expensive and lacks all the utility abilities and ludicrous ranged damage of the former...

Yeah in spite of 1d4chan's raging about "OP eldar" I generally found the Guard and Venom cannon spamming Tyranids (especially Carnifexes oh man the Carnifexes) to be much more of a problem.

 Kain wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:
If Space Marine is Canon, then all of it is, including murderously accurate Tankbustas, freakin' scary stealth Bomb Squigs, Ard boy Nobz that can just shug off repeated Melta and Lascannon hits..

Are you SURE you want to do this

As to my vote, Grots. They are basic infantry, being a codex troop choice. They have worse stats than TAU, FFS. In the fluff they do a chunk of the fighting too, in swarms of stabby little gits.

We may want to clarify whether we are defining basic infantry as codex choices in the troop slot here, or fluff-wise?

I can't thing of anything generally worse that's still a troop choice, as even Nurglings and Tau-in-CC beat them out

I wish TT Orks were as good as Relic Orks.

Relic is definitely an Ork loving company.

You bet they are. Catachans hit harder than 'Uge Choppa Nobz in retail Retribution.

wait wtf

There are people who don't use the hammers of kill everything?

To be fair, the hammers' base damage is less than 10% higher than the choppas'.

It is the stacking damage buff that quickly gets ridiculous.

My point stands- a 5 model swiss army knife T1 unit should not outdamage a dedicated heavy melee T3 unit that also is more expensive and lacks all the utility abilities and ludicrous ranged damage of the former...

Yeah in spite of 1d4chan's raging about "OP eldar" I generally found the Guard and Venom cannon spamming Tyranids (especially Carnifexes oh man the Carnifexes) to be much more of a problem.

The whining about the OP Eldar in the DOW games is largely bs. Unless you're uncoordinated enough to let a bunch of banshees drop on your face, Eldar are pretty easy to handle in DOW I by just getting SM's/CSM's heavy bolters, or getting heavy bolters as the IG to blow their infantry away while your tanks shred their armor. Or you could just play Necrons. In DOW II, eh. Eldar are freakishly good in T2 and T3, but they can be fought effectively by the other races. The main power of Eldar in DOW II is Wraithguard spam and Wraithlords murdering everything. If I had to choose a race as OP, it'd probably be Necrons or Space Marines in DOW I. Space Marines can drop a stupid amount of dreadnoughts right on top of your base and ensure you die, while Necrons are Necrons.

Also, for the most part all 1d4chan ever does is whine.

The Tau were also ridiculously absurd in DOW I.

The choice between Kauyon and Mont'ka is hardly a choice at all. Sure Crisis suits (especially with their lulzy flamers) and Hammerheads are nice, but Kauyon lets you field up to six relic unit equivalents and a knarloc to boot and buffs all your other units until your Tau can shoot farther than most artillery.

And for an army that's "weak" in melee, Carnivores and Hounds are plenty hurty, and the Tau Commander's DPS is nothing short of ridiculous. Meanwhile stealth suits can annoy the hell out of you from T1.

In any case, currently the big projects on 1d4chan are the Squat fandex and the Tyranod redux codex (I started a Slaugth fandex but I'm in a procrastinating mood and so haven't done anything but the bare bones).

There's also the disturbingly massive smut list.

From a DoW1 Tau player, Krootox are just broken. Super hard. I mean, Fire Warrior spam is one thing, but mass Krootox? Forget about it. I barely ever take Kauyon. Ever. Because, what's the fun in throwing six Krootox at something? Not much.

 liquidjoshi wrote:
From a DoW1 Tau player, Krootox are just broken. Super hard. I mean, Fire Warrior spam is one thing, but mass Krootox? Forget about it. I barely ever take Kauyon. Ever. Because, what's the fun in throwing six Krootox at something? Not much.

Tau games always devolved into "Stop the Krootox and Knarloc stampede".

Meanwhile Broadsides and Firewarriors slaughter everything at range.

Yup.

I remember when we got our Broadsides in teams of three. *sigh*. The Krootox just shouldn't have happened. Like, at all.

I don't get why DoWII's most effective anti tank weapon is the Ogryn. Seriously, they can tear apart a Russ way more effectively than a bunch of Lascannons.

 liquidjoshi wrote:
Yup.

I remember when we got our Broadsides in teams of three. *sigh*. The Krootox just shouldn't have happened. Like, at all.

I don't get why DoWII's most effective anti tank weapon is the Ogryn. Seriously, they can tear apart a Russ way more effectively than a bunch of Lascannons.

I thought it was Melta stormies?

Or the Vanquisher when it spazzed out and spat out rapid fire shells.

Grey Templar wrote:And Stormtroopers already have a pretty good statline. No complaints there.

And their statline is only three points better than a firewarrior, which means that firewarriors also have a pretty good statline.

Stormtroopers have literally 1 extra point in their statline than a normal guardsman, and a normal guardsman is scarcely better than a firewarrior. Which is a unit that's still better than conscripts and gretchin.

 Kain wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
Yup.

I remember when we got our Broadsides in teams of three. *sigh*. The Krootox just shouldn't have happened. Like, at all.

I don't get why DoWII's most effective anti tank weapon is the Ogryn. Seriously, they can tear apart a Russ way more effectively than a bunch of Lascannons.

I thought it was Melta stormies?

Or the Vanquisher when it spazzed out and spat out rapid fire shells.

Oh yeah, that. No, Ogryn are better than Melta Stormies. They're brutal, for no real reason.

The Glitchquisher is a beautiful sight to behold though. I believe the Executioner does it too, sometimes, which just leaves meaty chunks behind.

 liquidjoshi wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
Yup.

I remember when we got our Broadsides in teams of three. *sigh*. The Krootox just shouldn't have happened. Like, at all.

I don't get why DoWII's most effective anti tank weapon is the Ogryn. Seriously, they can tear apart a Russ way more effectively than a bunch of Lascannons.

I thought it was Melta stormies?

Or the Vanquisher when it spazzed out and spat out rapid fire shells.

Oh yeah, that. No, Ogryn are better than Melta Stormies. They're brutal, for no real reason.

The Glitchquisher is a beautiful sight to behold though. I believe the Executioner does it too, sometimes, which just leaves meaty chunks behind.

Venom cannons also had a weird habit of suddenly deciding they wanted to fire multi-shot bursts at random.

But watching a Vanquisher put out more shots than an Autocannon Khornate Chaos pred is a hilarious thing to watch.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It's amazing how everybody seems to think that tau have bad eyesight even though the only place where that is mentioned (IIRC) is The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, which is officially propaganda.

Not to mention it also makes some eyebrow raising statements like Eldar weapons being relatively harmless to guardsmen. Sure if you're an Astatres you can take a hail of of shurikens to the face, but a guardsmen? Something that looks like a slushie will be all that's left.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It's amazing how everybody seems to think that tau have bad eyesight even though the only place where that is mentioned (IIRC) is The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, which is officially propaganda.

Not to mention it also makes some eyebrow raising statements like Eldar weapons being relatively harmless to guardsmen. Sure if you're an Astatres you can take a hail of of shurikens to the face, but a guardsmen? Something that looks like a slushie will be all that's left.

The best part of it though?

"Genestealers are slow and sluggish and have blunt claws."

There is literally nothing correct about that statement.

Way to mislead your soldiers about creatures who wiped out 95% of the blood angels.

Kain wrote:"Genestealers are slow and sluggish and have blunt claws."

There is literally nothing correct about that statement.

Wait, yes there is.

"Genestealers ... claws".

Which, ironically enough, is all you really need to know about genestealers

Actually, to stay on with tyranid, termagaunts are in the running as well. They're guardsmen with +1I but -1Ld.

 liquidjoshi wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
Yup.

I remember when we got our Broadsides in teams of three. *sigh*. The Krootox just shouldn't have happened. Like, at all.

I don't get why DoWII's most effective anti tank weapon is the Ogryn. Seriously, they can tear apart a Russ way more effectively than a bunch of Lascannons.

I thought it was Melta stormies?

Or the Vanquisher when it spazzed out and spat out rapid fire shells.

Oh yeah, that. No, Ogryn are better than Melta Stormies. They're brutal, for no real reason.

The Glitchquisher is a beautiful sight to behold though. I believe the Executioner does it too, sometimes, which just leaves meaty chunks behind.

'

I will admit to not having seen that. There are a few stupid bugs in DoWII (Gaunts getting stuck in terrain) but otherwise it mostly seems like wonky balance.

Wait the nids took out the BA?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
Yup.

I remember when we got our Broadsides in teams of three. *sigh*. The Krootox just shouldn't have happened. Like, at all.

I don't get why DoWII's most effective anti tank weapon is the Ogryn. Seriously, they can tear apart a Russ way more effectively than a bunch of Lascannons.

I thought it was Melta stormies?

Or the Vanquisher when it spazzed out and spat out rapid fire shells.

Oh yeah, that. No, Ogryn are better than Melta Stormies. They're brutal, for no real reason.

The Glitchquisher is a beautiful sight to behold though. I believe the Executioner does it too, sometimes, which just leaves meaty chunks behind.

'

I will admit to not having seen that. There are a few stupid bugs in DoWII (Gaunts getting stuck in terrain) but otherwise it mostly seems like wonky balance.

I think the Vanquisher thing only happens in the Campaign, but the Ogryns... damn I hate the Ogryns...

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It's amazing how everybody seems to think that tau have bad eyesight even though the only place where that is mentioned (IIRC) is The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer, which is officially propaganda.

The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer is a well-sourced document, the result of many brilliant minds working in concert to equip our glorious soldiers with cutting edge information and research.

 raiden wrote:
Wait the nids took out the BA?

The Blood Angels once sent their entire chapter into a space hulk. IIRC, they only managed to extract around fifty guys. Everyone else was devoured thanks once again for people thinking terminators are a good counter against genestealers for some reason.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 raiden wrote:
Wait the nids took out the BA?

The Blood Angels once sent their entire chapter into a space hulk. IIRC, they only managed to extract around fifty guys. Everyone else was devoured thanks once again for people thinking terminators are a good counter against genestealers for some reason.

Wasn't that just 1 company?

It's Space Hulk and it was the First Company, not the whole Chapter.

Of course in the original Space Hulk if a stealer reached you you were uberly fethed, instead of just ignoring them and then beating them down at I 1

 Psienesis wrote:
It's Space Hulk and it was the First Company, not the whole Chapter.

I'm pretty sure it says 950 Blood Angels died on the space hulk in Space Hulk, stated in the rulebook and reaffirmed in the video game approved of by GW.

 Ascalam wrote:
Of course in the original Space Hulk if a stealer reached you you were uberly fethed, instead of just ignoring them and then beating them down at I 1

I've never understood why the hell they even send in terminators to fight genestealers besides high radiation if the space hulk is close to a star. Otherwise you're sending the worst possible unit imaginable to fight bullet timing super reptile bugs that pretty much have lightning claws for hands. You'd save yourself a lot of men and equipment if you just sent in Devastator squads armed with heavy flamers and grav weaponry to completely neutralize the advantages of Genestealers and turn them into sitting ducks.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:
Of course in the original Space Hulk if a stealer reached you you were uberly fethed, instead of just ignoring them and then beating them down at I 1

I've never understood why the hell they even send in terminators to fight genestealers besides high radiation if the space hulk is close to a star. Otherwise you're sending the worst possible unit imaginable to fight bullet timing super reptile bugs that pretty much have lightning claws for hands. You'd save yourself a lot of men and equipment if you just sent in Devastator squads armed with heavy flamers and grav weaponry to completely neutralize the advantages of Genestealers and turn them into sitting ducks.

Well, grav guns aren't particularly good weapons against gene-stealers.

I think heavy bolters would be a better bet.

Heavy flamers worked wonders in that game though.

Doubly so if you ignored the rule saying that you couldn't flambe your own guys

no, space hulk was only the 1st company.

 raiden wrote:
no, space hulk was only the 1st company.

Nope.

Quotes taken directly from the Space Hulk Mission Book:

Of the entire Chapter, only fifty Space Marines survived

The Blood Angels have returned. We avenge nine hundred and fifty dead. Time alone does not heal our wounds

There is no room for doubt.

Grots. There are probably no less grots on the battlefield than orkses. At least before the battle starts

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:
Of course in the original Space Hulk if a stealer reached you you were uberly fethed, instead of just ignoring them and then beating them down at I 1

I've never understood why the hell they even send in terminators to fight genestealers besides high radiation if the space hulk is close to a star. Otherwise you're sending the worst possible unit imaginable to fight bullet timing super reptile bugs that pretty much have lightning claws for hands. You'd save yourself a lot of men and equipment if you just sent in Devastator squads armed with heavy flamers and grav weaponry to completely neutralize the advantages of Genestealers and turn them into sitting ducks.

Actually... Not that bad.

Space Hulk, latest edition wrote:The space marine force, consisting of over eighty veterans in Terminator Armour, managed to not only cleanse the hulk of thousands of genestealers, but also recovered an ancient Blood Angels artifact in the process.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:
Of course in the original Space Hulk if a stealer reached you you were uberly fethed, instead of just ignoring them and then beating them down at I 1

I've never understood why the hell they even send in terminators to fight genestealers besides high radiation if the space hulk is close to a star. Otherwise you're sending the worst possible unit imaginable to fight bullet timing super reptile bugs that pretty much have lightning claws for hands. You'd save yourself a lot of men and equipment if you just sent in Devastator squads armed with heavy flamers and grav weaponry to completely neutralize the advantages of Genestealers and turn them into sitting ducks.

I thik you're coming at this from the wrong angle. They don't send Terminators into space huilks to fight genestealers specifically. They send in terminators in becasue they are the de-facto best tunnel fighting troops in the Marine arsenal and they can handle a wide range of possible scenarios. It just so happens that the GW games and a lot of the associated background focus on the times when they come up against genestealers.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:
Of course in the original Space Hulk if a stealer reached you you were uberly fethed, instead of just ignoring them and then beating them down at I 1

I've never understood why the hell they even send in terminators to fight genestealers besides high radiation if the space hulk is close to a star. Otherwise you're sending the worst possible unit imaginable to fight bullet timing super reptile bugs that pretty much have lightning claws for hands. You'd save yourself a lot of men and equipment if you just sent in Devastator squads armed with heavy flamers and grav weaponry to completely neutralize the advantages of Genestealers and turn them into sitting ducks.

Actually... Not that bad.

Space Hulk, latest edition wrote:The space marine force, consisting of over eighty veterans in Terminator Armour, managed to not only cleanse the hulk of thousands of genestealers, but also recovered an ancient Blood Angels artifact in the process.

It makes you wonder how over ten times more Blood Angels managed to fail so spectacularly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flinty wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:
Of course in the original Space Hulk if a stealer reached you you were uberly fethed, instead of just ignoring them and then beating them down at I 1

I've never understood why the hell they even send in terminators to fight genestealers besides high radiation if the space hulk is close to a star. Otherwise you're sending the worst possible unit imaginable to fight bullet timing super reptile bugs that pretty much have lightning claws for hands. You'd save yourself a lot of men and equipment if you just sent in Devastator squads armed with heavy flamers and grav weaponry to completely neutralize the advantages of Genestealers and turn them into sitting ducks.

I thik you're coming at this from the wrong angle. They don't send Terminators into space huilks to fight genestealers specifically. They send in terminators in becasue they are the de-facto best tunnel fighting troops in the Marine arsenal and they can handle a wide range of possible scenarios. It just so happens that the GW games and a lot of the associated background focus on the times when they come up against genestealers.

Genestealers are perhaps the most common inhabitants of space hulks, outstripping even Ork Waaaghs in transit and Chaos Warbands.

Space Hulk looters are often the genesis of Genestealer infestations that can corrupt whole worlds.

 Kain wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Troike wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
Thrown on a planet with no way to get supplies or backup, 20 marines will certainly kill 10,000 ork boys before they die

I think that's overestimating the Marines just a bit...

It depends. I could totally see 20 Marines from Space Marine do that.

And Space Marine is just as canon as anything else.

Captain Titus' player must have some seriously loaded dice.

Enemy count on hard difficulty is over a thousand, and Titus is never meant to die.
It's also really easy to bag 1000+ kills in multiplayer with a thunder hammer.

So from that discussion, we can rule out Genestealers and Captain Titus.

However, the entirety of the Blood Angels Chapter is now also in the runnings.

 liquidjoshi wrote:
So from that discussion, we can rule out Genestealers and Captain Titus.

However, the entirety of the Blood Angels Chapter is now also in the runnings.

Good summary

Hehe. Sangunius (I totally just butchered his name... Sorry BA players.) can take on Horus, but a standard Blood Angel, nay, the entire chapter of Blood Angels, can't neutralize a Space Hulk? No wonder I could never beat that PC game..

My question is how do you define "Basic Infantry"?
I mean when you only have two choices, it generally isn't too hard (between Scouts and Tac Marines, the Marines are the basic Troops, as Scouts are still in training). But when you have 5 different units that are Troops (like Tyranids), which one is the basic?

I think it's kind of "What is the defining image of the army?". Like, for Space Marines, you expect to see more Tactical Marines as troops. For Orks it's generally the Boyz. IG is Guardsmen, Eldar is Guardians (again, generally speaking), Tau it's Fire Warriors, so on.

With 'Nids, I'd guess it's Hormagaunts or Termagants.

 Noremac wrote:
Hehe. Sangunius (I totally just butchered his name... Sorry BA players.) can take on Horus, but a standard Blood Angel, nay, the entire chapter of Blood Angels, can't neutralize a Space Hulk? No wonder I could never beat that PC game..

Wirndoejw they DID cleanse it. They just lost like, 50 terminators. It was the first company. NOT THE ENTIRE CHAPTER.

 raiden wrote:

 Noremac wrote:
Hehe. Sangunius (I totally just butchered his name... Sorry BA players.) can take on Horus, but a standard Blood Angel, nay, the entire chapter of Blood Angels, can't neutralize a Space Hulk? No wonder I could never beat that PC game..

Wirndoejw they DID cleanse it. They just lost like, 50 terminators. It was the first company. NOT THE ENTIRE CHAPTER.

Did you not read the mission book or the quotes I provided?

They specifically said that they lost nine hundred and fifty marines to the Sin of Damnation.

No ambiguity, no room for doubt.

 Flinty wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:
Of course in the original Space Hulk if a stealer reached you you were uberly fethed, instead of just ignoring them and then beating them down at I 1

I've never understood why the hell they even send in terminators to fight genestealers besides high radiation if the space hulk is close to a star. Otherwise you're sending the worst possible unit imaginable to fight bullet timing super reptile bugs that pretty much have lightning claws for hands. You'd save yourself a lot of men and equipment if you just sent in Devastator squads armed with heavy flamers and grav weaponry to completely neutralize the advantages of Genestealers and turn them into sitting ducks.

I thik you're coming at this from the wrong angle. They don't send Terminators into space huilks to fight genestealers specifically. They send in terminators in becasue they are the de-facto best tunnel fighting troops in the Marine arsenal and they can handle a wide range of possible scenarios. It just so happens that the GW games and a lot of the associated background focus on the times when they come up against genestealers.

Except that Genestealers are the well known for inhabiting Space Hulks, if not are their main occupants. Sending terminators to fight genestealers is as tactically sound as sending an M1 Abrams tank into the New York subway. Heavy armor like Terminators is poorly suited for CQC, they're better off in an open field for maximum maneuverability.

Kain. I have googled every instance of space hulk, and in EVERY instance it is the plot line that you are a 1st company terminator, never does it mention any other company. So idk what you are quoting.


wyzllia- well yea, in a sense , but in reality terminator armor should be resoundingly resilient to genestealer claws (40k reality) if you take a battle cannon shell to the chest and can keep on chugging those fleshy gibits of claws will have a hard time scrarchig it. All the while in close confines those power fists are not easy to dodge.

 raiden wrote:
Kain. I have googled every instance of space hulk, and in EVERY instance it is the plot line that you are a 1st company terminator, never does it mention any other company. So idk what you are quoting.


wyzllia- well yea, in a sense , but in reality terminator armor should be resoundingly resilient to genestealer claws (40k reality) if you take a battle cannon shell to the chest and can keep on chugging those fleshy gibits of claws will have a hard time scrarchig it. All the while in close confines those power fists are not easy to dodge.

You are leading the 1st company which is avenging the eradication of 95% of the Blood Angels boarding a space hulk in the Secoris system six hundred years before the game's missions take place. They took down twelve thousand genestealers despite everything that could go wrong for them well...going wrong for them. But ultimately the mission was a complete disaster and it took them six hundred years to rebuild.

Says so right here in the 3e (3e of Space Hulk, not 40k) mission book.

That would be the G'Gugvuntt and Vl'hurg who, after millennia of warfare, realized that the grave insult that had sparked the war had, in fact, originated from the Milky Way, and thus joined forces to extinguish all life in this galaxy.

They crossed vast reaches of space in a journey lasting thousands of years before reaching their target where they attacked the first planet they encountered, Earth. Due to a terrible miscalculation of scale the entire battle fleet was swallowed by a small dog. The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy states that this sort of thing happens all the time.

 Kain wrote:

Genestealers are perhaps the most common inhabitants of space hulks, outstripping even Ork Waaaghs in transit and Chaos Warbands.

Space Hulk looters are often the genesis of Genestealer infestations that can corrupt whole worlds.

You got any source on that?

Wait. The first company killed 12,000 genestealers????

I don't know man... I don't know.

Tabletop:

4th Edition: Advantage Genestealers
5th Edition and Beyond: Advantage Blood Angels

 raiden wrote:
Wait. The first company killed 12,000 genestealers????

Unsurprising really. Genestealer infestations on spacehulks can grow really really big when given time, and it helps if the spacehulk is in the planetoid size area, which isn't too rare given the size of ships that typically comprise spacehulks.

So now Space Hulks have entered the ring. Gotta say, a Guardsman is probably worse than a hulk, sans sentience

Chaos Daemon Furies and Tyranid Gargoyles.

Seriously, why do these things exist? I hear the Gargoyles can blind, but the Daemon Furies? Why are they there?

Furies are a fast attack that daemon players choose to straight up ignore.

However there are a handfull of daemon players who use furies with mark of slaanesh. It is the only way they can possibly be useful.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Furies are a fast attack that daemon players choose to straight up ignore.

However there are a handfull of daemon players who use furies with mark of slaanesh. It is the only way they can possibly be useful.

Because they have the worst stat-line ever? XD I don't think 50 of those things would make them worth a bean, even against Cultists or melee Guard. They're just cannon fodder and food for the battlefield.

WS 3 BS 0 S 4 T 3 W 1 I 4 A 1 LD 2

So, insta-kill on S6, 1 wound, at least with I 4 they'll get to strike sometimes, but then lose combat and your done dead. lol

Still better than grots

 Flinty wrote:
Still better than grots

I'd be willing to agree with that, if it weren't for the multiple functions of grots like Ammo runners and Artillery spotters, things of that sort. At least they have a utility. Even in the Codex, Furies are written as "barely sentient things that go 'poof' in the winds of the Formless Wastes."

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
Chaos Daemon Furies and Tyranid Gargoyles.

Seriously, why do these things exist? I hear the Gargoyles can blind, but the Daemon Furies? Why are they there?

Because everyone wants to field Daemons with less balls than Grots in a valuable FA slot that are screwed the instant they ever have to roll on leadership for anything.

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 Kain wrote:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
Chaos Daemon Furies and Tyranid Gargoyles.

Seriously, why do these things exist? I hear the Gargoyles can blind, but the Daemon Furies? Why are they there?

Because everyone wants to field Daemons with less balls than Grots in a valuable FA slot that are screwed the instant they ever have to roll on leadership for anything.

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

I have a theory... it involves Chaos Undivided getting retconned out of existence and Furies being their most well-known unit.

Breaking them thus making them completely useless makes easier for the people to accept that they are no longer 'important', so they will not be missed when the next Codex arrives.

I was like: Ld 2!? Seriously? I have 20 of them! ლ (ಠ益ಠ) ლ