^ Thanks, I missed the part about payment in early October for the first survey.
In that case, I guess I'll go nuts and get everything I want since that gives me 4 months to get the cash together.
Shame about the resins being pre-survey money only, they'd have gotten double the cash out of me if they weren't... as it is, I know I'm better off saving it for the Warpath KS to make sure I can hit the $500 and $750 unique sculpt rewards they make for that.
Exactly. If I'd had to pay by the middle of July I might not be able to get everything I could (terrain wise) but now with the extra few months and the final bill being due after my overtime season I'm gonna wind up scaling up appropriately.
Yeah, I don't know that it will *dramatically* increase the amount of money they're getting, but it might result in an extra hundred for more terrain/TermiEnforcers.
Krinsath wrote: Yeah, I don't know that it will *dramatically* increase the amount of money they're getting, but it might result in an extra hundred for more terrain/TermiEnforcers.
Monsters! I was able resist the siren song of Strike Team and I probably could have if the survey was soon. But October? Nope, getting Strike Team and a booster bundle. :( :(
The FF Render cemented for me why I don't like the FF figures so far, with the exception of the Dreadball ones. Their heads are far too low on their chest. Their shoulders are at about ear-level. Even the DB ones suffer from this a bit, but nowhere near as bad as the others.
Since it is an un-posed render, I'll also point out that there are some collision issues and wait to see if they are fixed on the final model.
recruittons wrote: Monsters! I was able resist the siren song of Strike Team and I probably could have if the survey was soon. But October? Nope, getting Strike Team and a booster bundle. :( :(
Should have picked up Strike Team during the kickstarter, they don't offer the pledge levels during the surveys, only add-ons.
You'll be able to add extra teams if you want, though.
recruittons wrote: Oh, well that helps me make my decision. If there is not Strike Team, no temptation! I'll just stick with my terrain pledge
It's worth asking the question. In the KoW kickstarter I originally pledged for a $225 army but later decided I didn't want any of them so Mantic let me downgrade my pledge to a $175 army and make up the difference in bogofs.
I'm sure they'd be happy to let people upgrade their pledges as well.
recruittons wrote: Oh, well that helps me make my decision. If there is not Strike Team, no temptation! I'll just stick with my terrain pledge
It's worth asking the question. In the KoW kickstarter I originally pledged for a $225 army but later decided I didn't want any of them so Mantic let me downgrade my pledge to a $175 army and make up the difference in bogofs.
I'm sure they'd be happy to let people upgrade their pledges as well.
Actually, I already found a way around my problem (if it could be called a problem to save $200 ). Looks like I'm getting Strike Team!
Krinsath wrote: Yeah, I don't know that it will *dramatically* increase the amount of money they're getting, but it might result in an extra hundred for more terrain/TermiEnforcers.
From you? Sure - I guess you'd know!
From everyone else - I think it will!
Gah! I need to stop posting at work; it leads to me not proofreading properly. You have the gist of what I was going for though.
Compel wrote:It looks like I won't be skipping out on the landing pad battlezone after all.
With the 2 core worlds in strike team. I'm looking at getting another 1 of all the others, which leaves 1 point free. - Any suggestions?
I would think it depends on what kind of environment appeals to you the most. I would almost say ruins if they can show some more renders. My logic being just out of the box you could have the landing pad with a fortified compound nearby, then the 2 core worlds sprues make a nice "buffer" block and then you mix in the ruins until the other end looks much more like a warzone. Neat little story being told just with the terrain.
I would think it depends on what kind of environment appeals to you the most. I would almost say ruins if they can show some more renders. My logic being just out of the box you could have the landing pad with a fortified compound nearby, then the 2 core worlds sprues make a nice "buffer" block and then you mix in the ruins until the other end looks much more like a warzone. Neat little story being told just with the terrain.
No problem. I'm also thinking if you had more terrain on a 4'x4' table you could make a good-sized fortress to cover one half of the table it'd be an awesome scenario to have one side of the buildings be nice and pristine with intact watch towers and the other half ruins and make-shift barricades with a toppled tower out front. Then the mission is to sweep for some objective marker randomly scattered in the fortress, which is occupied by the other faction. Then as you kill off guys in the fortress, they enter the other side of the table as reinforcements. Find the marker and get to the extraction point (the highest point on the fortress or the landing pad) before being overwhelmed. Would also work really well with the Zombies...
The MYTH one was good, but it created some categories to stick things in, which whilst they ultimately turned out to be sensible, required trial and error to guess what things you wanted had been put where. (And whilst it didn't cause me problems there was enough issues on the plastic/metal Spriggan that they had to e-mail out about it).
IMO Hell Dorado did the best job so far, pledge total & pledge level, list of everything you could add in a single (albeit long) list, updated cart as you added stuff, very straightforward (also faction starters were pre-ordered ahead of the pledge manager as well I think) - my only issue was they listed me as having pledged more than I had (yeah, I fessed up).
I liked the Relic Knights one, it wasn't super straightforward but given the complexity of the system (being able to trade just about any component of your pledge for "store credit") I think they pulled it off amazingly well.
Mantic's sure could use a running total, as it is now you need to do all the math on your own and then fill out the survey. Not a problem for me but I can see it being frustrating for some people.
Mantic's surveys are designed to be quick to make and get out, as evidenced by it being a Google form. While it's not as nice as the ones hand-crafted by Wargame Factory (for Dreamforge) or Kingdom Death, it does the job. Also since it's a pretty bare-bones system that's just feeding a spreadsheet it's easier for them to allow overwrites than it is for those custom solutions.
I'll have to tamp down on my eagerness to fill out the survey and see if more terrain pics come out between now and the 21st. I might need to up my pledge for a few more battlezones.
I hope when Warpath inevitably hits that they include an option for Deadzone stats for everything as well. Otherwise I might be robot- less for quite some time.
I want all the mechs, but those mechs are the same price as the unit boosters. Since there's no buy three, get one free deal going with the mechs... I'm afraid I might be heading for quantity instead of quality.
With the exception of an Iron Ancestor, which I've wanted for quite some time now.
I'm definitely in for 3 strike teams - 1 asterian, 2 FF. 1 BOGOF for each race, 4 battlezones and some other bits TBD. Might have to scratch the workshop resin terrain to keep first wave under $1K though for Aussie customs ; / Emailed Mantic to see if there was a solution to this problem ; ) Chinese companies always write value as $20 for example, even if it's $800 worth haha.
I wouldn't mind letting rabble and grunts from Warpath loose in Deadzone. We used to do it all the time in Space Hulk once the Genestealer rules were out.
I'm hoping we'll get Deadzone rules for the more special things- vehicles, specialist units we haven't seen yet, heroes... that kind of thing.
I'm hoping 3 battlezones will be enough to make an adequate 2x2 board.
Going to have to wait a while before I can complete the survey I'm looking to get 20 Battle zones (in addition to the 2 in Strike Team) but until I see more of the Landing Pad, Fortification and Ruined themes I can't decided how many of each to pick I hope they can get more renders up by the deadline.
The Survey wrote wrote:Light Support Vehicles Light Support Vehicles are a great way to expand your force in bigger games, allowing your faction to hit hard and fast where it's needed most! These are supplied in premium resin.
Female Enforcer Pathfinder on Infiltrator Bike and on Foot - $20
Please enter the quantity of this item that you would like.
Corporation Strider (usable by Rebs or Enforcers in Deadzone) - $20
Please enter the quantity of this item that you would like.
It was a bit all over the place... but I 'think' that I got it all correct. Needed to add another $110 for extras and courier shipping, but I'm happy with that ... just hope the game is good, if I suffer another Sedition Wars burn I might give up on Game based Kickstarters for good.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote: It was a bit all over the place... but I 'think' that I got it all correct. Needed to add another $110 for extras and courier shipping, but I'm happy with that ... just hope the game is good, if I suffer another Sedition Wars burn I might give up on Game based Kickstarters for good.
I am curious of people's experience so far with proxy models.
I get this feeling it might be the Dropzone effect: awesome terrain and models, not a great game
Are you referring to Dropzone Commander? I think that game is pretty good, fwiw although it's hard for it to live up to the awesome models and terrain, as you say.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote: It was a bit all over the place... but I 'think' that I got it all correct. Needed to add another $110 for extras and courier shipping, but I'm happy with that ... just hope the game is good, if I suffer another Sedition Wars burn I might give up on Game based Kickstarters for good.
Dreadball turned out brilliantly, and Deadzone is set up to be great... quick gameplay, with reaction fire, lots of fun stuff like looting crates, grenades which blow all the models in a square out of the hex in a random direction... plus lots of expansions for multiplayer, 4x4 board, zombies, co-op mode, solo mode, light vehicles, lots of different scenarios, a narrative campaign (similar to the space hulk missions)... a lot of people didn't like the stretch goals for rules during the kickstarter, but they've really added a lot of value, I think.
Even just co-op and solo modes are pretty impressive, not many board games want to go to the effort of handling enemy AI.
Sedition Wars was more about the minis than anything else, it feels like the board and rules were an afterthought. They have a better setup at Mantic, with a few dozen people who are happy to do internal playtesting on a casual basis while the rules are being developed. Internet feedback also gets listened to, if there's any concern you have with the beta rules, you can go on Jake's blog and talk to him directly (and you'll usually get a long, detailed and very quick response, too!).
One of the things I like about Mantic is that the survey includes the option to change up your pledge. I had originally been pledged for Assault Team at the end of the Kickstarter, but after some time to consider it, I ended up changing my pledge down to Strike Team and spending the rest of the money on terrain, scenery and other miniatures/goodies. I went a little overboard during the Kickstarter and now that I see that there may be a little less interest in playing the game within my group than I realized, changing my pledge helps me get a nice playable game but with more money spent on terrain and stuff that can be used elsewhere. It's a win-win situation for me.
Which faction would be the best pick for my "free" starter in Strike Team? I'm going for all the factions, and might as well pay the $15 extra and double up on something (5 starters in Strike Team, then $50 for two more as opposed to $35 for one)?
Hard to believe, but nobody local is interested on picking up my extra starter more or less at cost.
^ Pick whichever one you plan on playing with the most, the minis will be useful and give you extra flexibility when building mission-specific lists.
Basically, deadzone is like necromunda/mordheim etc. in that you can hire new members for your team in a campaign.
Where it differs is that you don't use all of the models on your roster in every single game, you use your roster as a pool to select an "army list" out of, with different missions allowing different total points values. e.g. you might want to leave the shotgun/shield enforcers at home during a capture mission in favour of something faster, but use them for a defence mission. The more minis you have, the more options you have for long campaigns, or one-off games.
Same as a dreadball league, in other words, not all the minis in your team see the pitch in every game, you can pick and choose which ones you want up to your limit, and tailor it depending on what team you're facing.
I plan on playing with Rebs, and will get 2x Rebs starter, and 2x Rebs Faction booster bundle to give me pretty much everything I'll ever want/ need for that faction. (50 or so models will do the trick, and give enough to start a warpath army, too).
2x Rebs starter and 2x Rebs Faction booster bundles ends up with you having an awful lot of duplicate "individual" models.
4 teratons, for example. 4 Judwan medics... Does someone *really* need 8 Grogan?
This is what I'm currently wrestling with. Am I better off just taking a punt on the orx and hoping they don't end up being rubbish, despite me strongly disliking the original Orx models and feeling somewhat ambivalent about the updated ones?
I went for all of the starter races and all the bogof deals, if the game turns out to be good, (and tbh I'm clinging onto hope on what was raised regarding ongoing campaigns and xp like Necromunda,) if it is indeed good i'll be set.
2x Rebs booster bundle? Squig, you're going to be a hardcore Rebs player. Good strategy if you're planning on a Warpath force as well.
I'm staying focused on terrain while still getting 4 boosters (1 each for the Asterians, Enforcers, Rebs, and Plague) to give the game (I hope) maximum flexibility and playability. The thing about the Rebs is, since they're supposed to be heterogeneous anyway, they're ideal for proxying. I'll be getting one Rebs booster (unless we see some bad booster sculpts in the coming weeks, that is), and if I need more of anything from it, I'll be subbing in other alien figs from other company lines that just "happen" to have the same stats as Zees, Sphyr, etc. Depending on how they're constructed, I could even see swapping different alien figures into one of the BOGOF-doubled human / Sphyr missle teams just for visual variety's sake.
Ironically, the factions that are the most uniform are the ones most difficult to proxy. Adding in other companies' heavy-duty scifi soldiers into a Mantic Enforcers unit, or other Robotic units into an Asterian force, for example, will just look "wrong" and out of place.
On the other hand, those factions' units are similar enough to cover for each other in a pinch. Beyond the BOGOF deals, the only concession to doubling up on add-ons that I'm currently planning to make is buying 3 extra Enforcers with Heavy Rifles for $10. If I need more standard Enforcer troopers with heavy rifles beyond that, well, an Enforcer medic or Sergeant is suddenly going to start counting as one for the duration of that game.
I am also VERY pleased with the direction the scifi Zombie figures are going. I'm not adding any to my purchase - I'm spending enough on terrain as it is and I already have plenty of awesome scifi Zombies from Sedition Wars - but I will be using the 5 free strike team scifi zombies to sub-in for the worst of the Plague 3rd gens, with some Sedition Wars weapon hands modded in. On closer inspection, there really are only about 3 or 4 of the 3rd gen starter sculpts that absolutely drive me up the wall, so 5 alternate Plague Zombie / 3rd gen subs should go a long way towards making me happier with that faction's overall look.
Is any of this keeping my costs reasonable? Nope. Because terrain, terrain, terrain, which I have been wanting for an age, and am taking this opportunity to go all in for. Exactly what terrain I get will depend on what the coming weeks reveal about the sprues, but even if the landing pad and fortifications end up awful (not gonna happen), I'd still spend too much on the Core worlds anyway.
The Alpha Simian is the *only* sculpt where I won't complain about it having gorilla arms.
The Sorak is looking great too, really good example of how to do a non-humanoid alien.
Those seem (at first glance in any case) to be very nice indeed. As someone that pledged (Dreadball) for the Nameless spawn I feel quite satisfied, and hope that the remainder of the Nameless team measures up!
The Sorak indeed is very, very nice, and only serves to cement my opinion that the Rebels are the real standouts of the Deadzone campaign, both in terms of promise and (thus far) sculpts.
The Alpha Simian is the *only* sculpt where I won't complain about it having gorilla arms.
The Sorak is looking great too, really good example of how to do a non-humanoid alien.
Those seem (at first glance in any case) to be very nice indeed. As someone that pledged (Dreadball) for the Nameless spawn I feel quite satisfied, and hope that the remainder of the Nameless team measures up!
The Sorak indeed is very, very nice, and only serves to cement my opinion that the Rebels are the real standouts of the Deadzone campaign, both in terms of promise and (thus far) sculpts.
Yes, while some of the KoW models have left me feeling very "eh", all the stuff shown for DB and DZ since Open Day has been quite good IMO. I look forward to my Cthulu team arriving in the next few months.
I love the Sorak, but I really love the Nameless sculpt. They can't make a Deadzone Nameless team soon enough for me.
As for the Alpha Simian, I think Rackham did space Apes better. But unless they're done up "Planet of the Apes" Mongol-style, I think my interest in any space ape is going to be limited.
The Alpha Simian is the *only* sculpt where I won't complain about it having gorilla arms.
The Sorak is looking great too, really good example of how to do a non-humanoid alien.
Those seem (at first glance in any case) to be very nice indeed. As someone that pledged (Dreadball) for the Nameless spawn I feel quite satisfied, and hope that the remainder of the Nameless team measures up!
The Sorak indeed is very, very nice, and only serves to cement my opinion that the Rebels are the real standouts of the Deadzone campaign, both in terms of promise and (thus far) sculpts.
Agreed on both counts! I've paid up for an entire Nameless team and this is encouraging . The Sorak was the concept I liked most from Deadzone, and the model is very nice.
I can't even really fathom how the Multihex models are gonna impact the game. With all the deaths in matches currently, it seems crazy that we'd have even more devastating Killers running around on the pitch.
I wonder if there is gonna be a slight rules mod to compensate for league play. Something like 4 damage miss the rest od the game and the next, 5 damage your killed, as opposed to kill with 4 damage.
Judwan hiring a couple of these guys just seems completely unbalanced to me as well, so I wonder what the restrictions might be. I know some refuse to play with Judwan involved as is, though I'm hearing more and more FFs match up against them as long as you don't play like a mindless slamming slow.
Can't wait for Season 3 in general. There will be so much variety at that point with 144 different possible match-ups of different teams, and that's before you account for free agents, mvps, and additions/deletions to the roster of each individual team. The variety is quickly matching that of Blood Bowl. I'm just hoping there are no joke/dud teams in Dreadball like the Goblins or Halfings.
Secure the LZ
Update #98 · Jun 27, 2013 · 14 comments
With the survey deadline approaching on the 21st July and all of our sculptors working like crazy to get everything finished, we’ve got some new scenery sprue contents to show off!
First to be funded was the Landing Pad BattleZone:
The Landing Pad BattleZone contains 3 x Landing Pad sprue, 1 x Defence Line Sprue (see below) and 1 x 48-piece connector sprue.
The crane piece works as a 90 degree connector and can be put on any floor, wall or ceiling.
The small pieces in the top right corner are stair connectors, allowing you to combine staircase pieces and make a staircase as wide as you like.
The pillars work as 180 degree connectors, so are useful for strengthening any building.
This BattleZone is sufficient to make a complete Landing Pad raised up on pillars with a perimeter defence line, a gun turret and a staircase, with plenty of bits to spare!
You’ll notice above that the Landing Pad BattleZone features 3 Landing Pad Sprues and the Defence Line Sprue upgrade sprue funded at $1.15m that can be used to add even more variety to both the Landing Pad and Fortification BattleZones!
Defence Line Sprue (Part of Landing Pad and Fortification BattleZones):
The defence line pieces are designed to fit around the edges of the Landing Pad or along the top of a fortified wall or bunker.
On its own the sprue also creates a line of Barricades up to 29.5 inches long! The turret is standalone and can be used as a comms array or burst laser.
The 135 degree connectors are on both this sprue and the Landing Pad and can be used to join the defence line pieces at 135 degrees, or to angle them outwards around the edges of the landing pad.
NOTE: All sprue designs are awaiting final confirmation from our factory, so there may some slight tweaks still to come, but we will ensure that you can still build just as much with them!
We’re expecting final renders of the Fortifications and Ruins Sprue in soon so keep an eye out for them!!
Finally did the first draft of my survey. I put in for one of the landing pad zones. If my math is right we'll be able to build almost two of the "standard" platform off one if we just throw in 1 extra full panel from another zone. I think I might have gone a little crazy. Outside of my need for the goblin artillery for conversion purposes all my additional funds went to terrain since the FF aren't till round 2.
I initially went in for 2 Landing Pad Zones, but now I'm thinking I'll only need/want 1, especially if we can make 2 landing pads from one if the "Landing Pad Zones"?
I wonder what happen the long wall section for the long edge of the Triangle piece from update 96 (iI've asked but Mantic don't seem to be around the KS comments of late) I hope it makes it into another set i want a few of them other than that I like what I see probably get 2 or 3 (I have 24 Battlezone picks to fill after reworking my pledge money )
Well that landing pad looks really nice. May have to go with two after seeing the renders!
Probably going to hold off filling in the survey until the last few days in the hopes that we see more updates such as this before I finalize everything.
The sprue layout doesn't make much sense. You end up with 9 standard panels and 9 triangles, and you only need 5 and 4, respectively, to build the platform. If you scrounge up a spare square panel you can build two platforms, but the second one won't have barricade walls.
I guess both sprues will appear in other kits as well and Mantic is doing this sub-optimal layout to min/max the modularity in some way we can't see yet, but still...
To build a GW size landing pad you'd need 8 standard panels and 10 triangles, which is just not what you'll get from the kit, unfortunately. I guess you could cut the 9th standard into two triangles?
Hadn't realized that defensive line sprue was being included in the landing zone. Not a bad little bit of variety. Guess I'll end up getting one in the end after all.
I'm liking the stairs. Glad we'll be getting a few in that battlezone. Those should be useful.
Earth Dragon wrote: I can't even really fathom how the Multihex models are gonna impact the game. With all the deaths in matches currently, it seems crazy that we'd have even more devastating Killers running around on the pitch.
I wonder if there is gonna be a slight rules mod to compensate for league play. Something like 4 damage miss the rest od the game and the next, 5 damage your killed, as opposed to kill with 4 damage.
Judwan hiring a couple of these guys just seems completely unbalanced to me as well, so I wonder what the restrictions might be. I know some refuse to play with Judwan involved as is, though I'm hearing more and more FFs match up against them as long as you don't play like a mindless slamming slow.
Can't wait for Season 3 in general. There will be so much variety at that point with 144 different possible match-ups of different teams, and that's before you account for free agents, mvps, and additions/deletions to the roster of each individual team. The variety is quickly matching that of Blood Bowl. I'm just hoping there are no joke/dud teams in Dreadball like the Goblins or Halfings.
Every time I play my wife, and am using Forge-Fathers, she makes me feel like there already is a dud-team. :-p I love 'em, mind you, but my wife has an anti-dwarf field that just makes the little guys flail around more than usual.
I have to agree with the sentiment of your post though. I cannot believe how quickly DB has gotten to a point where I feel it is THE sports-board-game to play. After loving Bloodbowl for what has been a decade-plus, it so quickly started to feel archaic once DB hit my table.
Its like Dreadball has all the depth, deep tactical thinking/options, league progression/campaign satisfaction, etc.... but with no long swathes of feeling like a spectator, and quicker, less fiddly rules that are simple, yet shockingly tactical.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Speaking of Mantic's Stewart, customer-case-master-extraordinaire.... does anyone happen to have his email address handy?
lord_blackfang wrote: The sprue layout doesn't make much sense. You end up with 9 standard panels and 9 triangles, and you only need 5 and 4, respectively, to build the platform. If you scrounge up a spare square panel you can build two platforms, but the second one won't have barricade walls.
I guess both sprues will appear in other kits as well and Mantic is doing this sub-optimal layout to min/max the modularity in some way we can't see yet, but still...
I think the intent is to make a single standard 9" wide landing pad with all the trimmings + plenty left over for use with other kits.
We know the fortifications sprue is going to have a "long wall", so your spare triangle pieces will be useful for that, to, to create octagonal buildings. A lot of people didn't like the "boxy" look, and that will help massively with getting rid of that.
It is definitely the intent to have the different kits interchange and to just treat the entire lot as a giant lego set.
As far as ratios go, buying 2x core world, 1x landing pad, 1x fortifications (or multiple thereof) seems like the best way to go to make whatever you want. Then if you want ruins, add them to taste.
It's going to be a seriously flexible set of terrain with all 4 sets out, much moreso than cities of death where you're largely restricted to 3 different heavily-stylised buildings since they never released the generic sprue that was sculpted.
SS's ratio is pretty close but it's more 4-1 than 2-1 for me. I changed up my pledge to be primarily terrain and grabbed the 12 zone one. 7 Core, 2 Landing Pad, 2 Fortification, and 1 Ruin. The ruin to core ratio could change once the renders come out for them. Hopefully we see renders of all the terrain and a sprue layout render before this all ends.
The long wall has been dropped by the looks of it.
Creator Mantic Games about 9 hours ago
Hi guys, thanks for the comments!
Ramps - we did actually have one made, but with the floor tiles a maximum of 5mm in thickness it didn't really look like a ramp - there was hardly a slope on it. It was effectively a half-tile with limited use due to only having connectors on one side. What we've tried to with all of our scenery is make it as flexible as possible and allow everything to have multiple uses so you can really use your imagination.
Defence Line - As I say, we wanted the flexibility, and this sprue is a fantastic addition to both the landing pad and the fortifications BattleZones. While we could have made the designs more like the shields in the concept, firstly we would have struggled to fit enough on the sprue, and secondly they would again have had very limited use. This way, you've got lots of options.
Gun - yes, there is one per Defence Line sprue, but there's only one of these sprues in the BattleZone. The gun is only a single component, so it can't be split over multiple sprues.
Stairs - each of the staircase pieces is 18.75mm wide, and enough to support a 25mm base on its own if that's how you want to use it. The most common staircase will use two of these pieces, giving a staircase the same width as a half tile. This can be connected to a wall or floor in various different ways.
Long Wall Sections - we tried many ways of fitting these in, but due to the size of the components they took up too much of the space on the sprue that could be used for pieces that were much more useful overall. As I say, what we were really going for was flexibility, and they went against that. While we could have sacrificed some of the designs (stairs, pillars, etc) to fit one in somewhere, it would have been of restricted use elsewhere. We're hoping to revisit them later and fully do them justice :-).
Surveys - you are free to change your mind any time between now and the 21st of July. Just fill in your survey again and we'll overwrite your previous one. We've cleared the backlog of confirmation emails on the server now, so your summary should arrive within a few minutes of completion now :-)
Thanks again for the feedback guys, much appreciated!
I read that as them having dropped the long wall segments rather than the long wall concept, ie instead of a sprue having 4 3x6 segments to make a long wall, it has 8 normal 3x3 square segments which can achieve the same thing with greater flexibility and a few more connectors.
It'll probably turn up again at some point in the future, it's a pity it's gone but it is an odd size so it's not very modular, the long wall would be 4.25" in length (hypotenuse of a 3"x3" triangle - not 6") which doesn't fit with any of the current modular lengths so the use is very restricted (by comparison to the other pieces).
Mantic wrote:
Surveys - you are free to change your mind any time between now and the 21st of July. Just fill in your survey again and we'll overwrite your previous one. We've cleared the backlog of confirmation emails on the server now, so your summary should arrive within a few minutes of completion now :-)
Exciting news - we’ve just had confirmation that we’ve taken more than enough through the survey to fund the tooling of the hard plastic Enforcer Peacekeepers!
But there's more...
If we continue the way we’re going with the survey results, we think we’ll also be able to tool an additional scenery sprue...
Having read the feedback on the update last week, many of you have been clamouring for full height walls the length of the long edge of the triangular pieces (a tile 3" high by approximately 4.2" wide), allowing you to make buildings in far more interesting and varied shapes. There was also demand for ramps. Unfortunately these pieces simply didn't fit into the BattleZones - they took up too much of the sprue and significantly impacted the flexibility of the sets. However, we have a solution!
If enough comes in through the surveys, we think we can rectify this and create a brand-new sprue fully compatible with the existing kits, containing large wall pieces, a ramp, additional triangular sections and associated accessories, once again improving the variety and customisability of the kits!
This sprue will not be part of the BattleZones - these already provide fantastic building solutions as they are. If this sprue is funded, you’ll have the opportunity to add individual sprues of this new scenery on to your pledge during the second survey, and it will ship in the second shipment next year.
scarletsquig wrote: Quick bit of news - Mars Attacks will be 28mm and have a Kickstarter.
Might be the first one from Mantic I don't back, but I'll see how it goes.
I'd have preferred to see a Warpath Kickstarter first.
They might want to focus on one of the existing games they're already got out, or ongoing kickstarters for...
With Kings of War, Dreadball, and Deadzone... I really don't feel like they should do that project.
We hear how they're such a small operation... if that is true, they should focus on what they've started and do them well, instead of launching another new game at this stage... imo.
Unless Mantic takes it into the really campy, I don't see how it can compete being late to the show in a really niche market. Even more niche than gaming in general.
They're very much using a shotgun approach to getting as much product out in the market as possible. Luckily, I share timetowaste85's level of interest in Mars Attacks, so I can't see it bothering me too much. Except for when it takes the company's energy, focus, effort and good sculptors away from their existing projects and commitments.
That could never happen with Mantic though, right?
Maybe they'll keep it low key and just make it a simple boardgame for now? I don't think we actually had a date though, so it could still be quite a ways off.
Azazelx wrote: They're very much using a shotgun approach to getting as much product out in the market as possible. Luckily, I share timetowaste85's level of interest in Mars Attacks, so I can't see it bothering me too much. Except for when it takes the company's energy, focus, effort and good sculptors away from their existing projects and commitments.
That could never happen with Mantic though, right?
I remember hearing somewhere that Remy was supposed to do the 28mm aliens for the Mars Attacks, but I suspect that unless they cloned him while nobody was watching, we'll only see on or two, maybe a small handful, of the minis actually done by him.
i heard deadzone models were finished and off to china, all of KOW is in china and all of dreadball is in china.
don't think remy is doing it because it's being 3d sculpted.
dreadball season 3 is being playtested this weekend.
sounds like all of the sculpting talent is wrapping up on their projects and free to move on to the new project. small team yes, but they move pretty rapidly on these projects to meet their deadlines.
ronnie mentioned in the podcast that mars attacks is 28mm and played using the deadzone rules engine, though simpler... tell you what to roll rather than statlines for example.
Hmm... using Deadzone rule engine with Mars Attacks? Could be interesting.
I too hope it's a bit more board game-y. Curious as to what the game could include. Remembering the card series, I know they've got the giant bugs the Martians use to raze the countryside. Lots of bugs. They also had a giant robot and all the flying saucers. Humans (who I would assume are the rivals to the Martians) were pretty conventionally armed for the time (flame throwers and bazookas) but they did have rocketships and spacesuited soldiers in the end. Maybe we'll see Moon Men or Venusians or something along those lines if they want to add in other factions.
You know what would be sneaky and a way to drum up more interest? If Mantic decided to have this game get modified Deadzone sprues for scenery.
My secret hope is it does well enough to usher in the sequel to Mars Attacks... Dinosaurs Attack! My friend had some of those cards when we were kids, and they were GRUESOME.
Black Nexus wrote: i heard deadzone models were finished and off to china,
Frankly, I'll believe that when I see some more sculpts.
The problem with "I heard" is that it gives us things like "Only Remy is allowed to sculpt the Warpath/Sci-Fi models." and so forth. I'm not making this a personal attack on either you or SS, but pointing out that internet rumors aren't always all that reliable.
50's buildings would be cool, but at this point it's all basically conjecture on our part. I would assume if the game is using the DZ ruleset then we're more than likely looking at some kind of skirmish game, otherwise what would they gain from using the DZ rules? Maybe an accessory sprue with mailboxes, lamp posts, newspaper vending machines... and charred remains of humans (and maybe a kid with a burning dog like the old card set) to litter the streets? A man can dream, right?
And if the answer is yes I will continue to pine for a dinosaurs attack expansion!
Would it be wrong to assume this is something that Mantic would like to get a bit more mainstream exposure from? While still relatively niche, Mars Attacks I would think carries a little bit of weight within sci-fi/ comic circles in regards to brand recognition, at least moreso than it does with tabletop wargaming.
When I think mainstream tabletop gaming though I tend to think of prebuilt pieces. Maybe something like DZ's scientist pledge.
Hell I still need to finish that damned survey as it is...
After helping my kids capture some particularly nasty and aggressive crabs at the beach the other day, I have newfound respect for crustacean brawlers.
Hoping they grow them even bigger in Warpath so we can flip them over for massive damage.
to answer your question i think the nameless are just a mass of tentacles, so they could kill a giant crustactean and just use its shell. giving the appearance of being different, but in reality its just a mass of tentacles.
Barzam wrote: Is there a reason for the Nameless having varying forms like that? Do they try to mimic different lifeforms?
The nameless team is actually made up of three different species hence the different looks (I can't remember if they all come from the same world, or if they come from different worlds but had got together before the Corporation found them)
Still not entirely happy with the plague models (except teraton!) but the rest really is quite good.
Can't really see where they'd place the mold lines in such a way as to make them less annoying than on the DB stuff though - that will lead to continued complaints.
I'm pretty sure that Ork Commando isn't one of the resculpted ones. He's the knifer one from the booster. I actually really like him, too. He looks much better than the starter set ones. I just kind of wish they'd given him some goggles though for some reason. He just needs a little something extra.
That Plague spotter needs to share some shopping tips with his brethren- it must be hell trying to find clothes to cover up his midriff! Those guys seriously have some long torsos!
It would have been nice to get a shot of all these guys together. It's hard to get an idea of just how tall each of them are when they're on their own.
Big Knifer Orc seems to have his jacket zipped up rather than wearing a kilt. Maybe that's just my eyes.
Reb Rocket needs a little more detail... not sure where though. Maybe it's her face that seems a little off.
Wow, the Orx hands are even bigger. First the fist was larger than the Orx head, now his fist can hold his leg from knee to foot in his hand. If I was wearing foam 'hulk hands' they still wouldn't be as large as this model's hands.
And to think, Mantic made a name for themselves with realistic proportions. With this last batch, only the first 3 models are any good. Everything below the female is just poorly sculpted trash, especially the pile of leaves.
Standard fare from Mantic, I guess - a mix of decent and awful, but sadly missing "great". The Tau Air caste figure is the pick of the bunch there, but still nothing amazing.
That Reb's tail, the hulks legs and head...bleh. Terraton looks quite nice, the Orx commando looks kinda ridiculous, but in a good way. Good, not great. Rebel girl also looks pretty nice. The Plague...still only really like the big guy that was the poster boy of Deadzone. He's still in Mantic's top 5 best models, maybe even the best. The rest of the Plague is meh. I'm content to be getting the Striker for the Enforcer group(s) as I'm doubling up on them, the Marauders, the characters, my Plague leader and a terraton, while letting the rest go to a friend who is snagging the rebs and terrain. After letting that stuff go, I'm still getting a pretty good deal for the KS, and I'll be getting an Enforcer $50 booster doubled, plus a couple rounds of Peacekeepers. I love the Enforcers enough to have a lot. I mean a lot...
^ The zz'or are nicely done, but I have to say, the Asterians are definitely not your best work.. the black just hides all the detail and the paintwork comes across as a little too messy to get the look you're going for (really, really hard scheme to paint well, there). I imagine they look great IRL, but with the black they don't photograph too well.. hopefully Mantic's official pics will have them looking better, the black parts and face highlights seem a little washed out in that pic.
The rear view is better for some reason, they're not bad sculpts I think, one thing I do like is that the male/ female difference is clear from the hips, it is nice when sculptors bother to recognise the fact that women have different legs to men (I'm looking at you, drag queen GW dark eldar and elf kits).
Yeah, I agree on the Asterians. The brief was asking for the OSL 'tron' effect on the piping, but the time allowed (a factor of budget) just didn't stretch to having enough time to tweak enough to pull it off I think. Could also be that the sculpt isn't done with that in mind. Regardless, definitely not my favorites of the Mantic pieces I've done - that's probably the trolls - they were a lot of fun.
These (dreadball stuff) were all pre-production resins.
The Rebs look decent, the rest are either meh or terrible. The proportions on the plague look really off. It may be that this is deliberate due to the fluff, but if so it hasn't translated well into decent or even passable sculpts IMO.
Love all the Deadzone greens, with the exception of the big-chest plague, but their style is not really to my taste. Tons of detail for such small models. the Plague Teraton looks fantastic, like Mierce was releasing it.
Agreed on the Plague, I think I'll skip that faction and wait for the Zz'or as my horde army for warpath. The same problems with the marauders are present in the plague, but only the ones sculpted by that one particular sculptor.
The zombies look like they have much better proportions, probably a result of the different sculptor more than anything else.
I'm really not a fan of whatever sculptor they have on their books who is seemingly incapable of doing anything other than tiny-legs sculpts.
It's pretty hilarious that their new in-house sculptor (Sylvain) was actually hired specifically to fix problems with sculpts that their freelancers send them.
I can't help but feel like it would be a better use of the guy's time to have him sculpt nice models instead of being stuck as the resident turd polisher.
The strange thing is I really like the plague figures, also the orx hulk is really nice although id like the legs a bit further apart so they look like their supporting its weight.
The orx sergeant seems ok, but il leave final judgement till I get the figs in my hands.
The rebs seem a little plain, although I think the judwan medic looks pretty cool.
The plague swarm does however seem a bit of a mess, id like tohave seen it at a different angle (and a bit less ratty)
I don't think it can entirely be blamed on the sculptor or at all, someone at mantic must be going, yep that's good etc or at least giving some kind of information/feedback to the sculptor, otherwise why the near constant tiny leg syndrome across most models, fantasy, sci-fi etc.
The problem purely rests with Mantic and the desire or at least direction/style to have shorter legs. Hell, if you can get SS to complain about it, something is wrong
I would wish they upped their quality control and acceptance levels, if they fumble this one I will be quite reluctant to support them in their next one.
Earthbeard wrote: I don't think it can entirely be blamed on the sculptor or at all, someone at mantic must be going, yep that's good etc or at least giving some kind of information/feedback to the sculptor, otherwise why the near constant tiny leg syndrome across most models, fantasy, sci-fi etc.
The problem purely rests with Mantic and the desire or at least direction/style to have shorter legs. Hell, if you can get SS to complain about it, something is wrong
I think it is definitely a problem with the sculptors, as Mantic's concept art for the most part is pretty decent (thinking especially of the concepts shown during the KOWKS), but the sculpts that resulted from that art had numerous basic problems with them. That said, Mantic shouldn't be approving the sculpts (or even hiring sub-standard sculptors in the first place).
It is very frustrating as they should be able to see that poor sculpts harm their reputation and sales, but they still can't achieve consistent art direction or quality control.
The problem purely rests with Mantic and the desire or at least direction/style to have shorter legs. Hell, if you can get SS to complain about it, something is wrong
I had the same thought. SS is a very firm supporter of them (so am I, mind you), but if he's questioning their output, they really need to stand up and take notice. When their number one fan is offering criticism, it needs to be addressed. And Squig, there is no offense, malice or anything else in calling you their #1: merely an example to show they need to sit up and notice your suggestions and thoughts.
They've got £X to pay for the sculpt so this limits the pool of talent that's available to them
And the need it done by Y date (and quite possibly this is multiple figures done by Y date) and I'll bet this is even more of a problem once again limiting their talent pool
From what they've said about Kings of War their margins on that were so tight that the KS money could not even stretch to paying for the command upgrade sprue, that had to come out of Mantic's general funds
(and when they've tried to increase their margins there have been howls of outrage, just read the early bits of the Deadzone thread)
So it may just not be viable to dump substandard sculpts both in terms of cost and in terms of getting stuff out on time (where they're head and shoulders above almost all other KS companies). Hence a house sculptor hired to try and improve them where nessesary (although this will never be as good as stuff done right from the start)
(I do wish that they'd stop using sculptors that keep producing less than stellar work, if you know one persons work always gets flak and sells poorly, just STOP)
It's always going to be a problem for a company that originally sold themselves a cheap alternative when they need to increase costs to produce a better product. It's up to they buyers to decide whether they get to make the step up, and so far the calls for more stuff, more value, more discounts makes me doubt they are willing to pay for it.
Tiny legs are a big problem with privateer's stuff too- Trollblood infantry can suffer badly from it, and pretty much all the Dire Trolls and Jacks have it to some degree. On one level, it's part of the aesthetic, but on another, it just looks silly.
Rebs are looking like the faction to watch so far. Lots of interesting concepts and fairly decent sculpting so far.
Plague are okay mutants, Orx are sub par Orks when you can get Nelson sculpts in plastic that look better. KoW Orcs are better looking!
judgedoug wrote: Love all the Deadzone greens, with the exception of the big-chest plague, but their style is not really to my taste. Tons of detail for such small models. the Plague Teraton looks fantastic, like Mierce was releasing it.
Um. No. The Teraton doesn't live in the same country as any of the recent mierce releases in terms of quality. I like parts of the winged reb. I like the tau guy. And the chick is okay. The zombies are awful.
I mean, yeah, the Plague aren't looking so good (ha!), but I didn't think we've seen actual Zombie models yet, and the renders did look nice...
I don't think they have been shown, but I'm confident the DZ zombies will be great, given that the KOW zombies are arguably Mantic's best work to date.
Earthbeard wrote: I don't think it can entirely be blamed on the sculptor or at all, someone at mantic must be going, yep that's good etc or at least giving some kind of information/feedback to the sculptor, otherwise why the near constant tiny leg syndrome across most models, fantasy, sci-fi etc.
The problem purely rests with Mantic and the desire or at least direction/style to have shorter legs. Hell, if you can get SS to complain about it, something is wrong
I think it is definitely a problem with the sculptors, as Mantic's concept art for the most part is pretty decent (thinking especially of the concepts shown during the KOWKS), but the sculpts that resulted from that art had numerous basic problems with them. That said, Mantic shouldn't be approving the sculpts (or even hiring sub-standard sculptors in the first place).
It is very frustrating as they should be able to see that poor sculpts harm their reputation and sales, but they still can't achieve consistent art direction or quality control.
The problem is weak, inconsistent art direction. Sculptors are humans, and thus just as likely to take the easiest route as anyone else. If there is no one to say: "No. That's not good enough, tweak A, B, and C and get it back to me." or "Not good enough, do it again please." there will never be any consistency. Plus the AD needs to have a strong visual theme or idea for each faction in the first place.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:I guess it's a question of both time and money
They've got £X to pay for the sculpt so this limits the pool of talent that's available to them
And the need it done by Y date (and quite possibly this is multiple figures done by Y date) and I'll bet this is even more of a problem once again limiting their talent pool
From what they've said about Kings of War their margins on that were so tight that the KS money could not even stretch to paying for the command upgrade sprue, that had to come out of Mantic's general funds
(and when they've tried to increase their margins there have been howls of outrage, just read the early bits of the Deadzone thread)
So it may just not be viable to dump substandard sculpts both in terms of cost and in terms of getting stuff out on time (where they're head and shoulders above almost all other KS companies). Hence a house sculptor hired to try and improve them where nessesary (although this will never be as good as stuff done right from the start)
(I do wish that they'd stop using sculptors that keep producing less than stellar work, if you know one persons work always gets flak and sells poorly, just STOP)
It's always going to be a problem for a company that originally sold themselves a cheap alternative when they need to increase costs to produce a better product. It's up to they buyers to decide whether they get to make the step up, and so far the calls for more stuff, more value, more discounts makes me doubt they are willing to pay for it.
I don't really see how money is the issue. There are average priced sculptors out there who do better work than what is presented. Sacrificing quality for speed might be the issue. That is a questionable decision though.
cincydooley wrote:
judgedoug wrote: Love all the Deadzone greens, with the exception of the big-chest plague, but their style is not really to my taste. Tons of detail for such small models. the Plague Teraton looks fantastic, like Mierce was releasing it.
Um. No. The Teraton doesn't live in the same country as any of the recent mierce releases in terms of quality. I like parts of the winged reb. I like the tau guy. And the chick is okay. The zombies are awful.
I agree with Cincy on this one. Almost nothing Mantic has released is on par with Mierce's stuff. There are a few gems, but overall not as good.
At this point, I think I have written off the Marauders completely. I'll wait and see what they look like in hand before making the final judgement, but I doubt my opinion will change that much.
Lastly, I will ask: Why are these pictures released by Bruckenkopf online instead of Mantic themselves?
Whoah. These are... something else. The Plague mutants both look horrendous and the Marauder Hulk's proportions are frankly even worse. I'm guessing it's not supposed to be his legs in the leg sections of the suit, or else he's shaped even weirder than the Plague. The rest aren't terrible, just ininspired, though the Asterians look hydrocephalic.
The plague have grown on me (har) a bit. I can accept that they're being stretched out of their normal human proportions and are starting to look like caricatures of top-heavy weight lifters. I suppose a similar explanation could be used to justify the hulk, but that one still bothers me. The plague could be better, but I'm not clawing my eyes out anymore. I'd love to see a statement from Mantic about why they seem to have a habit of releasing sculpts with teeny tiny legs though.
Ok apart from the Hulks tiny legs and the plagues stretched out look (which is there design from the beginning) I'm not seeing what the huge issue is here with the others legs? Are people complaining just to complain?
overtyrant wrote: Ok apart from the Hulks tiny legs and the plagues stretched out look (which is there design from the beginning) I'm not seeing what the huge issue is here with the others legs? Are people complaining just to complain?
No?
Opinions will differ, of course, but this is somewhat of a concept art to model question, as well as the 'Mantic Tiny Legs House Style" potential problem as well.
I suppose if people are really happy with that and vote with their wallets...OK?
But I don't think we're far enough along with any of that to know for certain either way.
judgedoug wrote: Love all the Deadzone greens, with the exception of the big-chest plague, but their style is not really to my taste. Tons of detail for such small models. the Plague Teraton looks fantastic, like Mierce was releasing it.
Um. No. The Teraton doesn't live in the same country as any of the recent mierce releases in terms of quality. I like parts of the winged reb. I like the tau guy. And the chick is okay. The zombies are awful.
I agree with Cincy on this one. Almost nothing Mantic has released is on par with Mierce's stuff. There are a few gems, but overall not as good.
I'll politely disagree with both of you. As the owner of, jeez, almost all of Mierce's releases (my poor smoking credit card), I can easily compare the Teraton to something like, say, the Tarvax. I'm assuming the Teraton is about that height or smaller. In which case, he's definitely got loads more detail than any of my 6 Tarvax models. If he's the height of a Brythoniaid Dydnraig like Galhwch Lladd Llaw, then I would be disappointed. As it stands, and with my assumption of height equivalency to a Tarvax, the Teraton could easily be a new sci fi Mierce release and I'd pay $20 for him.
overtyrant wrote: Ok apart from the Hulks tiny legs and the plagues stretched out look (which is there design from the beginning) I'm not seeing what the huge issue is here with the others legs? Are people complaining just to complain?
No?
Opinions will differ, of course, but this is somewhat of a concept art to model question, as well as the 'Mantic Tiny Legs House Style" potential problem as well.
I suppose if people are really happy with that and vote with their wallets...OK?
But I don't think we're far enough along with any of that to know for certain either way.
I'm personally complaining because it's a stupid style. If they continue move into that direction I will continue to not buy those ugly products. I have a gigantic Mantic orc army for KoW because they're the best Orc soldiers on the market... but I am going to be giving away my Trolls when my KoWKS shipment arrives. I'm using Mierce trolls instead. For the Deadzone pledge manager I just added a ton of Enforcers because I know they will look excellent and I want them. The rest, other than the freebies, I'm waiting for retail.
I'll politely disagree with both of you. As the owner of, jeez, almost all of Mierce's releases (my poor smoking credit card), I can easily compare the Teraton to something like, say, the Tarvax. I'm assuming the Teraton is about that height or smaller. In which case, he's definitely got loads more detail than any of my 6 Tarvax models. If he's the height of a Brythoniaid Dydnraig like Galhwch Lladd Llaw, then I would be disappointed. As it stands, and with my assumption of height equivalency to a Tarvax, the Teraton could easily be a new sci fi Mierce release and I'd pay $20 for him.
But the plague are just stupid.
That's cool and I don't dislike the Teraton, just so we're clear. It is one of the strongest Plague sculpts to date (2nd only to the original 1st Gen), but still a technically inferior piece to most, if not all, of Mierce's offerings. I'll never change your mind (or anyone else's really) so we can agree to disagree if you like.
I do think the Plague in general are very confused, aesthetically speaking. Each "generation" looks like it is a completely different faction to the others. This is a factor of limited/weak Art Direction.
overtyrant wrote: Ok apart from the Hulks tiny legs and the plagues stretched out look (which is there design from the beginning) I'm not seeing what the huge issue is here with the others legs? Are people complaining just to complain?
No?
Opinions will differ, of course, but this is somewhat of a concept art to model question, as well as the 'Mantic Tiny Legs House Style" potential problem as well.
I suppose if people are really happy with that and vote with their wallets...OK?
But I don't think we're far enough along with any of that to know for certain either way.
I'm personally complaining because it's a stupid style. If they continue move into that direction I will continue to not buy those ugly products. I have a gigantic Mantic orc army for KoW because they're the best Orc soldiers on the market... but I am going to be giving away my Trolls when my KoWKS shipment arrives. I'm using Mierce trolls instead. For the Deadzone pledge manager I just added a ton of Enforcers because I know they will look excellent and I want them. The rest, other than the freebies, I'm waiting for retail.
We agree on this one. It is an odd choice. If indeed it was a deliberate choice, which it may not have been.
I was a gamble on their KS coupled with a tremendous amount of overtime worked earlier this year. The post KS pledge manager is still open so I will probably add more, sigh.
I'm personally complaining because it's a stupid style. If they continue move into that direction I will continue to not buy those ugly products. I have a gigantic Mantic orc army for KoW because they're the best Orc soldiers on the market... but I am going to be giving away my Trolls when my KoWKS shipment arrives. I'm using Mierce trolls instead. For the Deadzone pledge manager I just added a ton of Enforcers because I know they will look excellent and I want them. The rest, other than the freebies, I'm waiting for retail.
We agree on this one. It is an odd choice. If indeed it was a deliberate choice, which it may not have been.
~Eric
They need to REALIZE it's becoming their thing, intentional or not. a year ago their 'thing' was reasonably good true 28's for cheap as hell. Now it's becoming a series of 'almost good stumpy leg hamfists'.
It's hard to find good angles of the actual 2nd Gen model, but they seem to have the same overall aesthetic going for the plague. To my eye, all their torsos are extended the same way, it's just not as noticeable on the other two generations because their shoulders are massively bulked out. Looking closely though, they all seem to be an inverted triangle on legs and they all seem to have very large hands relative to the rest of them. I'm not saying that I think they're the greatest design ever, but there is some consistency to the general traits. The renders of the zombies show a slight exaggeration of the torso, but not to the extreme of the actual "living" plague. This would indicate there is an art direction there, though the execution of the idea is certainly debatable.
For some reason they don't bother me as much as the greenskins, but I've never been particularly partial to orc-like creatures in most any setting either.
I'll also reiterate that I don't dislike the Teraton. I think it's one of the better ones in that grouping. My eyes simply tell me from that photo that it isnt as nice as the Mierce stuff, but I'm certainly willing to give that one a chance.
I just don't get the stretched out zombies with the tiny legs. All of their ogres have this weeble-wobble tiny leg syndrom too, which is a shame, as I was really hoping I could fit one or two in with my GW ogres.
cincydooley wrote: I just don't get the stretched out zombies with the tiny legs.
For clarity are you referring to the plague, who are mutated by a virus but still living, or the actual zombies, who were infected by the plague but died? I know it seems like it's just a fluff difference, but it's rather key since zombies are their own thing from my reading of things; they get in the plague's way as much as anyone else.
I'll agree with not getting the design behind plague at the moment (maybe there's an explanation we haven't heard for the design choice), but the zombies haven't looked bad from the renders we've been shown so far.
Azazelx wrote: It's just a shame they're not letting people swap out Orx and Plague for good/reasonable models as they did with the KoW items...
Well, I was an (almost) alone voice asking for this throughout the first week of the Kickstarter, only to be shouted down by like a million people with Brian Blessed avatars saying "Mantic hath spoken, so stfu".
Even just posting a single comment asking for it would trigger a dozen+ really angry responses, so eventually everyone stopped bothering to raise the point.
Being able to pick double rebs and double enforcers for the 4 strike team factions would have been sooo damn good. Not that it isn't good already, it just could have made the leap from good to pure awesome is all.
They offered the choice with Loka (you could pick any 4 factions of your choice), it's a real shame they didn't continue that with Deadzone.
Logistics would have been tricky, yes.. but only to the point of having the warehouse people pack 4 units into a box instead of one unit... all of the individual boxes are going to be customized with all manner of different add-ons and stuff, so it really wouldn't have added a lot of extra complexity to pack swap-outs while doing it.
They could even have extended it to the 2 extra factions... swap out plague and marauders for forgefathers and asterians, anyone?
I may have gone for 3 plague if we could have swapped!
I think however im happy to get one of each, it will challenge me to not only paint them but also use them in games, hence the reason ive gone for one of each booster pack aswell.
overtyrant wrote: Ok apart from the Hulks tiny legs and the plagues stretched out look (which is there design from the beginning) I'm not seeing what the huge issue is here with the others legs? Are people complaining just to complain?
No?
Opinions will differ, of course, but this is somewhat of a concept art to model question, as well as the 'Mantic Tiny Legs House Style" potential problem as well.
I suppose if people are really happy with that and vote with their wallets...OK?
But I don't think we're far enough along with any of that to know for certain either way.
I like my little-legged trolls. But it feels wrong on the Hulks. I voted by jumping on the KS and continuing to back their KSs. But the little leg Hulk does not get my approval.
Azazelx wrote: It's just a shame they're not letting people swap out Orx and Plague for good/reasonable models as they did with the KoW items...
Well, I was an (almost) alone voice asking for this throughout the first week of the Kickstarter, only to be shouted down by like a million people with Brian Blessed avatars saying "Mantic hath spoken, so stfu".
Even just posting a single comment asking for it would trigger a dozen+ really angry responses, so eventually everyone stopped bothering to raise the point.
Yep, full credit to you on that, and agreed that it would have been so easy to do. I don't think you're "supposed" to be swapping out brand-new Mantic figures to use more expensive GW ones instead for their brand-new game, but that's where we're headed with a lot of this...
PsychoticStorm wrote: I had asked the same but got logistics would be difficult response from them.
As ScarletSquig says, the logistics would not be that hard. They've already got the models broken up into per-race "modules", so just make the core module the infrastructure for the game instead of a single block of (infrastructure+enforcers+rebs+plague+marauders). Their failure to do this for Dreadball is why I did not buy that game, because I was only interested in Season Two teams.
They might feared Orx and Plague might be left unused and enforcers needing x4 production run.
You say that like it's a bad thing. A smarter company would welcome this influx of free market research, and recognise that if the cost of producing an Orx module is the same as producing an Enforcers module there's no upside to devoting resources to the useless filler instead of the one that the customer might actually appreciate.
I say it as it is, neutral, I try to speculate their mindset, not say if it would be good or bad.
Logistics might not be that bad to swap things, they might not want to go to the trouble to do so for a few hundreds, even thousands of orders, of course they are already doing it for all the extras, so one can say what is another one custom option per order one might say its one option too many, I don't know I know if I had the choice I would skip orx and probably plague too.
Oh well, hopefully warpath will consist of an army box or single armies.
Or even better, if it took the form of multiple mini kickstarters, one per army.. that way you could get in on the armies you want to see funded only, and get freebies for that army only, etc. There has been some talk of doing this, could work really well to have a really focused kickstarter with the set goal of taking a single army and doing it really, *really* well.
They could do with some more flagship ranges like the Undead, the armies for both KoW and Warpath which currently have a really incomplete mini range and a ton of hybrid metals just aren't worth going for right now.
I think the one KS per army model could lead to a very unbalanced end result for the game.
Great if your army is a popular one, very bad if it's not as you not only get a worse deal, and a smaller less competitive force you'll be able foresee Mantic neglecting you in the future outside KS too (so some will drop out, making things worse etc)
Even if all the armies are one Kickstarter, the rewards should be focused towards the armies people actually want. If someone only likes the Rebs, they should only receive Rebs - every non-Reb model you send them costs just as much to produce, but fails to increase the perceived value of the bundle.
you should be able to pick one or some or all factions but the KS should be designed so each faction gets an equal amount of 'stuff' by the end (more or less)
I was with you from the beginning asking for the swapping and they drove me completely out of the comments section. I wish I could freely swap as I'd likely keep a single rebel for painting and swap the rest for FF but since that was a no go. Which is sad because it cost them money from me in the long run.
Oh well, the Hulk shot has saved me about $30 since it was going to be the one reason I went with the bundles instead of just ordering the artillery pieces for the Marauders. Thanks I guess??
Customer service of a sort I suppose there Hulksmash...
I do wonder if the "no swapsies" was because after the DreadBall debacle they had some very pointed words with their supplier and all the Strike Team boxes are really being shrink-wrapped in China this time. This would make swaps a lot more complex especially since, with all respect to people who do a hard job for probably not enough money, their supplier doesn't seem to be the best at taking care of things. It wouldn't be impossible to swap them out of course, but I can see where the logistics and so forth made it an undesirable option.
I do agree with those saying its unfortunate that Mantic didn't take the "free" market research on board. While I'm sure some people would be upset if the aesthetic of an army (like say, the Marauders) changed from DeadZone to WarPath, if an army completely underperforms in DZ sales it would probably be a smart to revamp them before one of the flagship products gets rolling. Allowing swaps would have really shined a light on this, and also gotten them feedback about what sculptors they need to have a pointed discussion with as well.
All that said, I've liked what I've seen of the Rebs and Enforcers so far. That works out well for me since those were the ones I was planning on getting the most of anyway.
I thought they had done market research and had been told that buyers generally didn't like the 'fantasy models in space' feel of the original mauraders
which may be why the new stuff is so distinct....
I guess they'll know if they went the right or wrong way when the KS pledge manager numbers come in
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I thought they had done market research and had been told that buyers generally didn't like the 'fantasy models in space' feel of the original mauraders
which may be why the new stuff is so distinct....
It's not. If you want to make your models look less like fantasy models in space, you change the equipment, and give them poses appropriate to the new gear. You don't turn them into badly proportioned hunchbacks.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I thought they had done market research and had been told that buyers generally didn't like the 'fantasy models in space' feel of the original mauraders
which may be why the new stuff is so distinct....
It's not. If you want to make your models look less like fantasy models in space, you change the equipment, and give them poses appropriate to the new gear. You don't turn them into badly proportioned hunchbacks.
That would be the way to go IF you think the complaints are about equipment and poses,
If you think they're about the whole thing you change the whole thing
(personally I don't like the new direction, but I can see why they went that way)
Is anyone else out there having this issue with the survey: My zip code starts with a zero. When I get my survey summary email it doesn't display the first digit of my zip code (I believe) because it treats the zip code box like it does a quantity box. I have written to Mantic via the Kickstarter and hope they can figure it out as I wonder how many other people this particular bug effects.
Email Stew as well: I moved to a new town that also has a 0 as the first part of the zip code, and he had no problem adjusting it for me. Just got my first of two large KoW shipments, so I know it'll work from firsthand experience.
timetowaste85 wrote: Email Stew as well: I moved to a new town that also has a 0 as the first part of the zip code, and he had no problem adjusting it for me. Just got my first of two large KoW shipments, so I know it'll work from firsthand experience.
Why would the chick with the missile launcher be holding it that way?
Even assuming she is left handed, not using the front grip/handle makes it very awkward looking, and the weight of the launcher would make that pose less than desirable, even while reloading.
CptJake wrote: Why would the chick with the missile launcher be holding it that way?
Even assuming she is left handed, not using the front grip/handle makes it very awkward looking, and the weight of the launcher would make that pose less than desirable, even while reloading.
Looks like she's pressing a button with her thumb. Maybe some reload button, while the other dude holds it steady and slides the missile in.
CptJake wrote: Why would the chick with the missile launcher be holding it that way?
Even assuming she is left handed, not using the front grip/handle makes it very awkward looking, and the weight of the launcher would make that pose less than desirable, even while reloading.
Looks like she's pressing a button with her thumb. Maybe some reload button, while the other dude holds it steady and slides the missile in.
CptJake wrote: Why would the chick with the missile launcher be holding it that way?
Even assuming she is left handed, not using the front grip/handle makes it very awkward looking, and the weight of the launcher would make that pose less than desirable, even while reloading.
My guess would be, someone put the mini together wrong. The hands look like they'd be a better fit on the front grip.
i just realized mantic made perfect kroothawks. lol. The rebs look outstanding. I cant wait for the warpath kickstarter next year, i want to see 75-100K main stretches that would add plastic transports for the 4 initial races, with mini stretches built in. If mantic is smart, they would start on the 3d models now in excess, that way when the warpath KS comes around they can show the actual 3d models. that would increase the pool imho.
The rebs are looking amazing, everything I hoped for from the concept art. I hope their playstyle is fun since they were my favourite faction style wise. The fem trooper looks really well proportioned (that sounds seedy...). Dat Kraaw... *meme face*
CptJake wrote: Why would the chick with the missile launcher be holding it that way?
Even assuming she is left handed, not using the front grip/handle makes it very awkward looking, and the weight of the launcher would make that pose less than desirable, even while reloading.
Looks like she's pressing a button with her thumb. Maybe some reload button, while the other dude holds it steady and slides the missile in.
That would be a really bad launcher design then.
But it makes for great romantic tension. Read Doug's description again, but this time, the lady is Rene Russo and the reloader guy is Kevin Costner.
Well if they do not deliver a decent product this time it might be the last time I support them.
Their call, frankly I do not get it, they can produce decent and good models, their consistency is lacking and their quality control is puzzling at best.
Agamemnon2 wrote: What do you mean, "still"? Has Mantic ever listened to feedback and actually corrected some of their work? I think not.
Yeah, they didn't change the Orx at all when people when clamoring about them. They look exactly like the very first greens we saw.
You still may not like them, but there were some fairly obvious changes.
And for the folks thinking the head is off........just paint her hair black. There are a LOT of asian and hispanic women with fairly large noggins compared to their shoulders versus what most caucasians look like. The first thing I thought was "Cool. I guess they made an Asian chick" when I saw that model.
CptJake wrote: Why would the chick with the missile launcher be holding it that way?
Even assuming she is left handed, not using the front grip/handle makes it very awkward looking, and the weight of the launcher would make that pose less than desirable, even while reloading.
You're right! That does look awkward. The loader figure works alright with it as posed, but when they're mounted on 25mm round Mantic bases, the loader's "holding it steady" hand is going to be in mid-air.
CptJake wrote: Why would the chick with the missile launcher be holding it that way?
Even assuming she is left handed, not using the front grip/handle makes it very awkward looking, and the weight of the launcher would make that pose less than desirable, even while reloading.
My guess would be, someone put the mini together wrong. The hands look like they'd be a better fit on the front grip.
That would make sense, but on closer inspection, it looks like her left hand has a pistol/firing grip sculpted/moulded to it.
With the alien having elongated arms... I wonder if it's the same sculptor who did the nuns? It's an issue, but not as pronounced as with the humans, since you can "lol alienz" it to an extent.
CptJake wrote: Why would the chick with the missile launcher be holding it that way?
Even assuming she is left handed, not using the front grip/handle makes it very awkward looking, and the weight of the launcher would make that pose less than desirable, even while reloading.
You're right! That does look awkward. The loader figure works alright with it as posed, but when they're mounted on 25mm round Mantic bases, the loader's "holding it steady" hand is going to be in mid-air.
CptJake wrote: Why would the chick with the missile launcher be holding it that way?
Even assuming she is left handed, not using the front grip/handle makes it very awkward looking, and the weight of the launcher would make that pose less than desirable, even while reloading.
My guess would be, someone put the mini together wrong. The hands look like they'd be a better fit on the front grip.
That would make sense, but on closer inspection, it looks like her left hand has a pistol/firing grip sculpted/moulded to it.
With the alien having elongated arms... I wonder if it's the same sculptor who did the nuns? It's an issue, but not as pronounced as with the humans, since you can "lol alienz" it to an extent.
That and they ARE apes. Though, as others have pointed out, why aren't the arms between the two models matching up? I thought they were all clones, so it be better to do all the Zees on the computer versus hand sculpted anyway. I also thought that was the direction they were going, so the zees are a little a bit of a shocker they look a bit funny.
The latest update confirms that the minis have already been sent for tooling (confirming what BN posted earlier in this thread), so no chance to make modifications unfortunately.
I'm pretty happy with them, Rebs are what I'm focusing on, and they all look great IMO. Plague aren't too bad, it's just the mortar crew that look a bit goofy (the 3rd gens do as well, though).
Marauders seem to be an improvement overall, I think the hulk might be in 2 pieces which is why it's looking odd.
As always, throw your feedback into the KS comments if you're a backer, it all helps them to get a good idea of the majority opinion.
Some of those don't quite look like a model that has been cleaned for tooling though. So it's odd they are showing pics that appear in a WIP state, yet saying they've all been sent.
So ultimately....who knows what we'll be getting. Hopefully some of the "dirty" sculpts didn't digress from odd changes and they've all improved
Agreed, I am as well. But, most of the pics are of the Rebs... which mostly look sweet. But I just went back to page 24 and looked at the plague mortar crew, and yeah... ugh
So, you have no issue with the heavy weapons lady been huge, nor with the left Zees arm been literally unsculpted and the pics been labeled as "sent to be tooled" and not "WIPS"
How does the lady look huge? She looks more than fine without having a human next to her for scale comparison. The arm does look funky - could be the angle, could be unfinished mini or poorly assembled.
overtyrant wrote: Girl looks fine and yeah one of the zees arms looks long, go figure it's an alien.
Except "its analien" isnt an excuse to just do a gakky job. It should at least be consistent within the species. The arms on the left Zee are longer than the one on the right. Its the same problem as the derpy nuns.
overtyrant wrote: Girl looks fine and yeah one of the zees arms looks long, go figure it's an alien.
Except "its analien" isnt an excuse to just do a gakky job. It should at least be consistent within the species. The arms on the left Zee are longer than the one on the right. Its the same problem as the derpy nuns.
Because humanity is a very consistent species with all dimensions being nearly identical between all its members.
Looking at them though, I'm not sure you can definitively state the arms are longer. They appear to be, but at the same time the angling of the arms on the right one could be creating a slight illusion. Their bases appear to be equal in size, and the forearms are actually very close to the same length measuring from elbow to wrist to raise the question. Comparing the left forearm of the right model to the right forearm of the left model (no chance for confusion there!) seems to indicate they're very close in length.
Not saying that this is scientific fact, but based on what I can observe it actually falls within the realm of reasonable doubt which way it goes. It'd come down to the upper arms on both, which are much more difficult to compare accurately.
overtyrant wrote: Girl looks fine and yeah one of the zees arms looks long, go figure it's an alien.
Except "its analien" isnt an excuse to just do a gakky job. It should at least be consistent within the species. The arms on the left Zee are longer than the one on the right. Its the same problem as the derpy nuns.
Because humanity is a very consistent species with all dimensions being nearly identical between all its members.
From my understanding they are genetically modified ape clones.
SO......having longer arms is fine, but since they are clones, they should all have the same dimensions and proportions. They should have all been done digitally. Period.
The Human looks fine. Again, I work with some Asian women that look pretty close to what is being shown there with the gal holding the bazooka. Not sure why all the women would need super model type bodies, curves, and proportions.
PsychoticStorm wrote: In any case at the very least the fingers on the right Zee are not something I am expecting from a professional company.
Can you elaborate on that? I can't see enough of that model's fingers to determine if there's an issue or not, but perhaps I'm missing some detail. I strongly dislike the look of the gun on the one on the left as it looks much more like "WIP" than "Finished and tooled." However, most of the complaints about them thus far seem centered around the proportions that can't readily be judged. It reminds me of Dreadball with the "Look at that stupid leaning Judwan!" outcry that really wasn't leaning at all; the painter just hadn't fixed the warped restic cast.
Now, if we wanted to go on about how Mantic needs to get a better photographer for these sorts of things, I would agree wholeheartedly. Defiance is worse, because at least Mantic has heard of this black magic called "focus", but so many of these shots are incredibly unflattering. Not that a different perspective will make them masterworks, but I think they're actually of "average" quality and perspective is making them look worse. Time will tell though, because there's just as much chance they really are gak and that's the most flattering picture they could get.
The fingers have no articulation points, no digits, look like lamps of putty placed there and divided by a sculpting tool.
Overall both lack crispiness and sharpness in the lines, the right one has it on his upper body, but not the legs, overall they look like WIPs and not models send to the tooler.
Ah, I can see what you mean with the fingers now, thanks. It does appear that the detail there is at best very soft and doubtful it exists at all. Not sure I agree about the crispness on the right one though; the pants seem to be as detailed as many other examples in the market. Overall if looks "ok"; not ground-breakingly awesome but not cover-your-eyes awful.
I do agree that the one on the left looks like a WIP shot more than a finished product on the whole though. Could have a lot to do with the uneven color in the material, but the gun and hand are clearly not as refined as the rest from the angle shown.
As always, throw your feedback into the KS comments if you're a backer, it all helps them to get a good idea of the majority opinion.
I would if I thought they cared or would take any notice.
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Compel wrote: Jake Thornton still seems to see them as monkeys.
I mean... They are called Zees after all. Chimpan-zees!
Their in progress team rule is called "Monkey business" after all.
Oh god. I wish that generation of ex-GW staff would get away from using such exceptionally stupid puns. Mon'Keigh, Veer'Myn, Zees...
As always, throw your feedback into the KS comments if you're a backer, it all helps them to get a good idea of the majority opinion.
I would if I thought they cared or would take any notice.
Or if I wanted to be ridiculed for disagreeing with the Brian Blessed crowd.
The comments section quit being useful/helpful/worth looking at or posting to a long time before the project ended. I have little faith it is better now and don't plan on taking the time to confirm.
Okay, I just put in my survey for round 1. I noticed that the survey showed a few minis that I really don't remember Mantic showing off. Namely, the other Gen 2 Plague figures.
And everyone complaining about proportions and "ugly sculpts," I think maybe you guys should take another look at the figures that are finished that are on the Kickstarter's main page. Have you forgotten how nice looking the OTHER Reb figures are? Now, I think these pictures really aren't doing the new sculpts justice though. I think with some paint, they'd look just as good as the other Reb figures.
And those Zees, are you really complaining about the figure's hand being undetailed? You do realize how small they're going to be, right? Those guys are going to have hands that are probably even smaller than the ones that Mantic's Elves have. They're going to be so small that you really aren't going to be able to tell if they sculpted a knuckle or not.
Barzam wrote: And those Zees, are you really complaining about the figure's hand being undetailed? You do realize how small they're going to be, right? Those guys are going to have hands that are probably even smaller than the ones that Mantic's Elves have. They're going to be so small that you really aren't going to be able to tell if they sculpted a knuckle or not.
You have a point. However, it's the same deal as with SW faces. They're actually rather realistic (a little in the way of malifaux models) without many of the absurdly deep 'rimples' etc. in GW faces.
Does make them a bitch to paint to TT quality and make look half as nice as aforementioned "ridiculous" detail though. Same with knuckles. I'd like to be able to basecoat, layer and wash and leave it at that, with the existing structure on the model 'helping' me along in providing detail (it's called a model rather than a blob for a reason ). This look is not at all conducive to that, IMO. Sure, it'll work but it's one of those little things that really wouldn't have taken the world to get right - which some sculptor once again didn't.
Sure, I still like the model, still happy with my pledge, will still be adding a bunch onto it - but it could've been much nicer with just that tiny little bit of extra work.
They **REALLY** need to start whipping sculptors over this crap. This is not an artistic difference over the look of the torso of G2 plague (which I'm just not a fan of) or some of the greenskins for example - this is an easy-to-get-right technical detail.
...Which should damn well just have been gotten right, even if you don't see it at a glance. All those tiny things *do* add up, and it's a shame these small things are just not sufficiently taken care of really.
And those Zees, are you really complaining about the figure's hand being undetailed? You do realize how small they're going to be, right? Those guys are going to have hands that are probably even smaller than the ones that Mantic's Elves have. They're going to be so small that you really aren't going to be able to tell if they sculpted a knuckle or not.
About half the height of an average human, that's not an excuse to not have detailed sculpts, especially if they look so amateurish.
And those Zees, are you really complaining about the figure's hand being undetailed? You do realize how small they're going to be, right? Those guys are going to have hands that are probably even smaller than the ones that Mantic's Elves have. They're going to be so small that you really aren't going to be able to tell if they sculpted a knuckle or not.
About half the height of an average human, that's not an excuse to not have detailed sculpts, especially if they look so amateurish.
The average human is about 5'6" these minis will be nowhere near that less than 1" in all likleyhood. Still they don't come across as quality sculpts which is a shame as apart from them the rebs look pretty good. I don't want to see lack of consitancy and variable proportions is becoming mantics thing.
To many models have tiny legs its fine for the trolls to have them it can be a troll thing but mantic need to pick heroic or TS proportions and stick to them.
Maybe if we swap the ape arms from the battle sisters onto the Zee's they will look right :-(
The Zees are roughly 15-18mm tall, which means the level of detail on them is EXCEPTIONALLY good compared to 15mm sci fi manufacturers such as Khurusan and Rebel. Do you really want knuckle joints at that scale?
judgedoug wrote: The Zees are roughly 15-18mm tall, which means the level of detail on them is EXCEPTIONALLY good compared to 15mm sci fi manufacturers such as Khurusan and Rebel. Do you really want knuckle joints at that scale?
Seriously?
compared to these from Khurasan:
Do you not see a difference in sculpt quality and level of detail? And you think the Mantic sculpt is better?
So both Mantic's and Khurusan's have banana fingers and Khurusan's female has a muppet face. The Khurusan figs are white metal and washed with black gesso or ink, while the Mantic shots are grey resin.
You've also chosen to compare them to 15mm sculpts by fething Tom Meier, sculpts that are pretty much universally recognized as the greatest 15mm sculpts of all time.
Would you like to grab pics of any of Khurusan's other 15mm figures? Perhaps the entire rest of their range?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Typical 15mm (not the atypical "best 15mm sculpts in the universe")
The difference being Khurasan's figures are scaled for 15mm, so hence often smaller and less detail, as it's not a defining aspect of 15mm or the medium.
That Zee might only be 15mm, but it's not scaled for 15mm use, so is larger and therefore should have better details, instead, it looks half finished on the arms etc. How you can;t acknowledge that I'm unsure.
judgedoug wrote: The Zees are roughly 15-18mm tall, which means the level of detail on them is EXCEPTIONALLY good compared to 15mm sci fi manufacturers such as Khurusan and Rebel. Do you really want knuckle joints at that scale?
The Zees might be small, but I doubt that they are smaller than, say, Red Box Games' Dwarves, and almost certainly not smaller than their goblins. The hands on the Zees look fine to me, but the proportions on at least one of them look off. Could be the angle of the photo, since that one appears to be bending at the waist. Also, the detail falls down a bit in my opinion. There are details but not particularly sharp ones, and the "realism" of some of them is a bit low. I'm thinking of the straps and fabrics here: Straps that are tightened down pinch in, deform the silhouette a bit, and cause different wrinkle patterns and that is not shown on these figures. There may be other examples, but without better pictures, its hard to tell. Wish Mantic had taken better pictures (again...)
These are amazing figures. Yes, they are the best, and I cherry-picked them, true.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Hopefully all these remarks continue to push Mantic towards 3D sculpts in the future so that these little glitches can be dealt with more quickly.
I REALLY hope they've got all these kinks ironed out in time for Warpath.
Digital is not a cure-all. Especially as the renders shown so far tell us that their digital sculptors have issues of their own.
Earthbeard wrote: The difference being Khurasan's figures are scaled for 15mm, so hence often smaller and less detail, as it's not a defining aspect of 15mm or the medium.
That Zee might only be 15mm, but it's not scaled for 15mm use, so is larger and therefore should have better details, instead, it looks half finished on the arms etc. How you can;t acknowledge that I'm unsure.
It's not just scale, but ultimate size matters as well. I don't expect a 28mm/1:72 scale mouse to have life-like detail... they're pretty damn small to begin with.
Earthbeard wrote: The difference being Khurasan's figures are scaled for 15mm, so hence often smaller and less detail, as it's not a defining aspect of 15mm or the medium.
That Zee might only be 15mm, but it's not scaled for 15mm use, so is larger and therefore should have better details, instead, it looks half finished on the arms etc. How you can;t acknowledge that I'm unsure.
I can see how that makes sense when you're saying it but how does it make sense in reality? They are "scaled" from a fictional 3 foot creature to a height of 15-18mm ish. You lose detail the smaller you go. That's why 6mm figures lack things like faces and Napoleonics with painted grains of rice lack rifles and shakos.
I'm not arguing they're amazing fantastic sculpts. (In fact, I don't like the Zees at all, in this or the Dreadball team) I'm arguing that anyone that owns any 15mm-18mm figures can see that these Zees are perfectly fine, and featureless banana fingers are the norm (actually, they might be the exception, I have lots of 15's that don't have fingers, they just have flesh-mitts holding spears or rifles)
overtyrant wrote: Girl looks fine and yeah one of the zees arms looks long, go figure it's an alien.
Except "its analien" isnt an excuse to just do a gakky job. It should at least be consistent within the species. The arms on the left Zee are longer than the one on the right. Its the same problem as the derpy nuns.
Because humanity is a very consistent species with all dimensions being nearly identical between all its members.
Looking at them though, I'm not sure you can definitively state the arms are longer. They appear to be, but at the same time the angling of the arms on the right one could be creating a slight illusion. Their bases appear to be equal in size, and the forearms are actually very close to the same length measuring from elbow to wrist to raise the question. Comparing the left forearm of the right model to the right forearm of the left model (no chance for confusion there!) seems to indicate they're very close in length.
Not saying that this is scientific fact, but based on what I can observe it actually falls within the realm of reasonable doubt which way it goes. It'd come down to the upper arms on both, which are much more difficult to compare accurately.
Do you recognize the nun arms were off? Its the exact same thing here, sculpted by someone who doesnt grasp that some bones arent femur length.
Do you recognize the nun arms were off? Its the exact same thing here, sculpted by someone who doesnt grasp that some bones arent femur length.
The nun arms were off because they're humans. We have a fairly solid understanding of how human anatomy informs the guidelines that determine "good" proportions. Those models deviate from it, and thus we can say "those aren't good" for that reason.
The Zees are not human, ergo human proportions do not apply. CONSISTENCY is indeed something that would apply, but the pictures we have make it hard to say definitively either way if they've failed that standard. At this point, there's nothing to say that's "bad" any more than there is to say it's "good" in that regard. We don't have Zee lying around to look at and see what their "real" dimensions are (not even the DreadBall team has pictures AFAIK), and the two examples are reasonably identifiable as being from the same race so they're not wholly inconsistent.
In other words, you would need much better data than what you gave on hand to make the determination you're claiming. A single two-dimensional photograph of two three-dimensional objects that may or may not have physically been in the same position/location when the picture was taken is very poor evidence. I'm not saying you're wrong, because later information could validate your argument. I'm saying we all lack the data to deal with that as some sort of verified fact.
They could be inconsistent and you would be correct because they are not consistent. They might just as likely be exactly the same dimensions, in which case your argument is incorrect because they are not humans and that standard would not apply. Time will tell as we see more images and/or models in hand.
Earthbeard wrote: The difference being Khurasan's figures are scaled for 15mm, so hence often smaller and less detail, as it's not a defining aspect of 15mm or the medium.
That Zee might only be 15mm, but it's not scaled for 15mm use, so is larger and therefore should have better details, instead, it looks half finished on the arms etc. How you can;t acknowledge that I'm unsure.
I can see how that makes sense when you're saying it but how does it make sense in reality? They are "scaled" from a fictional 3 foot creature to a height of 15-18mm ish. You lose detail the smaller you go. That's why 6mm figures lack things like faces and Napoleonics with painted grains of rice lack rifles and shakos.
I'm not arguing they're amazing fantastic sculpts. (In fact, I don't like the Zees at all, in this or the Dreadball team) I'm arguing that anyone that owns any 15mm-18mm figures can see that these Zees are perfectly fine, and featureless banana fingers are the norm (actually, they might be the exception, I have lots of 15's that don't have fingers, they just have flesh-mitts holding spears or rifles)
I can't agree with them being 'fictional' creations grants an excuse, maybe it the pictures etc, but the zee on the right looks so much better than the one on the left, at least the one on the right looks mostly finished.
I agree with your points about a lot of 15mm miniatures features, hell some 28mm stuff I've seen suffers from lack of details too. But, 28mm generally are held up to a higher basis of sculpting, regardless of how much detail it's size and form can take. I can appreciate that these zee may have different physical forms to humanity etc, but the left figure looks unfinished, simple as.
I've been very critical of Mantic's QC and items (most are not to my own personal taste etc), but with Dreadball, they seem to have finally stepped up thier game, and then these and then especially the KoW stuff, seem to have jumped them all the way back to beginning. I want them to make quality products, not just cheap and 'good enough' stuff they seem to continually resort to. They need to move away from the 80's/early 90's form they seem to love so much.
Earthbeard wrote: The difference being Khurasan's figures are scaled for 15mm, so hence often smaller and less detail, as it's not a defining aspect of 15mm or the medium.
That Zee might only be 15mm, but it's not scaled for 15mm use, so is larger and therefore should have better details, instead, it looks half finished on the arms etc. How you can;t acknowledge that I'm unsure.
It's not just scale, but ultimate size matters as well. I don't expect a 28mm/1:72 scale mouse to have life-like detail... they're pretty damn small to begin with.
I don't disagree here either, a smaller figure is honestly going to be more difficult to get finer details, but both sizes call for a specific start and finish, that're often different to each other.
I just can't shake the feeling of 80's/early 90's era sculpting techniques and style with these, I know it's subjective as most art/aesthetics are, but looking at some of the details and miniatures released these days, the difference for me is like night and day.
But, if Zees are still inspired by monkeys... Wouldn't that still be the one time when it'd actually make real sense for them to have longer arms and shorter lengths?
Since we brought Tom Meier And Kevin White ont he scene I guess I can add that Corvus Belli has consistently provided Servants bots that are around the Zees height or smaller and have managed to not create such awful detailing, miniatures height is not the key issue here, its mantics inability to keep a high quality control and accept substandard sculpts.
It might also be that they posted WIP sculpts and not finished sculpts for models send to tooling without saying so, but sounds odd.
In any case for me mantic passes an exam here if they fail I will be really reluctant to support them in the future.
PsychoticStorm wrote: mantics inability to keep a high quality control and accept substandard sculpts.
Be sure to stay away from the entirety of the 15mm market.
While not my preferred game era, have you seen CB's 15mm ancients? or the above meier sculpts? but overall I agree 15mm would benefit from more high quality infantry, vehicles have become increasingly better to a rather good standard at present.
But both do not justify how bad Zee is sculpted its a 28mm scale so 1/54? scale model not a 15mm scale so 1/110 scale miniature.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kroothawk wrote: I won't get into details, but seems nothing has changed with this company since I last looked.
Yes and no, they have improved on areas, but still need improvement on other areas and areas they have improved.
Kroothawk wrote: I won't get into details, but seems nothing has changed with this company since I last looked.
This is the most negative thread I've ever read on Dakka.
Glad to be a part of it!
Seriously, though, a lot of my enthusiasm for Mantic as a company has died between KoW and Deadzone. I really hope they move back to hard plastics and that they spend the time and money to do it right. If the enforcer plastics have the same obvious quality issues as the Men at Arms, I think I'm done with Mantic.
I'm going to withhold judgement one way or the other until I have the actual minis in my hands. Something else to take into account is that a brilliant paint job can rescue some of the most hopeless minis out there. For example, if you were to look at the studio paint jobs for the Vampire Wars line, you would never touch them. But if you see the paint jobs some truly inspired painters have done on the models, you might actually be inclined to pick up a few.
When my Dreadball KS Z'Zor team arrived with a bunch of casting issues (misalligned moulds basicly) - not bad enough to ruin them, but just needing a bit more scraping and touching up than I would have liked - I was a bit miffed. A month or so later I got a look at the retail team box, and it had none of those issues.
PsychoticStorm wrote: mantics inability to keep a high quality control and accept substandard sculpts.
Be sure to stay away from the entirety of the 15mm market.
While not my preferred game era, have you seen CB's 15mm ancients? or the above meier sculpts? but overall I agree 15mm would benefit from more high quality infantry, vehicles have become increasingly better to a rather good standard at present.
But both do not justify how bad Zee is sculpted its a 28mm scale so 1/54? scale model not a 15mm scale so 1/110 scale miniature.
So you argue that a 28mm sculpt of a child, which would be 15mm tall, should have the same level of detail as a 28mm figure, despite every appendage and feature being half the size?
The Zee is the size of a 15mm figure and is above average quality for the 15mm market (hell, the fact there's individual fingers and not a flesh-mitt puts it above a sizable portion of current offerings). Now don't mistake what I'm saying; yes, there are superior 15mm sculpts. Just as Mierce makes the best 28mm sculpts and Antenociti's Workshop makes the best sci fi vehicles. Does it mean no one should buy any other 15's or 28's? If that's the case, I'm screwed, since I already own most of Mierce's figures and almost every Antenociti's Workshop vehicle, and apparently no one would ever buy a Khornemower, Chaos Zoid, or Empire Soldier Monkeyman. I don't even _like_ the Zee, and I'm not getting any. But it's absurd to say the model lacks detail when it is more detailed than the majority of comparably sized models.
So you argue that a 28mm sculpt of a child, which would be 15mm tall, should have the same level of detail as a 28mm figure, despite every appendage and feature being half the size?
Of course, what did you expect? the scale gives what is and is not accepted as detail not the size, if a model is 28mm "scale" then there is a minimum accepted detail it should have on it, 15mm models have less detail on them because they are supposed to represent a smaller scale model not because they are 15mm, if mantic could not pull off a decent detailed small model for the scale they should either hire somebody who could do it or not attempt it at all.
For the record the models you showed have better formed hands than the Zees and they are tinier than them.
The picture of the Zees is so bad that I can't see how a fair assessment of the quality can possibly be made based on it. What I can make out is aesthetically unpleasing and not worth anyone's money, but I wish to see a better one to be able to confidently dismiss them entirely.
Of course, what did you expect? the scale gives what is and is not accepted as detail not the size, if a model is 28mm "scale" then there is a minimum accepted detail it should have on it, 15mm models have less detail on them because they are supposed to represent a smaller scale model not because they are 15mm, if mantic could not pull off a decent detailed small model for the scale they should either hire somebody who could do it or not attempt it at all.
For the record the models you showed have better formed hands than the Zees and they are tinier than them.
I have to completely disagree with your logic there. The scale does nothing to determine the level of detail that's acceptable on a model. The scale does one thing; it establishes the baseline for size measurements so you can tell what's a small thing and what's a large thing (generally referring to the average human height). That's really all it ever does.
The actual size of the model has more to do with what level of detailing is acceptable than anything else. Following from that comes "what do competitor models look like that are a similar size?" There's a reason you don't compare Ogres to Goblins across lines, because the *size* of the models matters.
Taking your argument in the other direction, a model that was a truescale Space Marine that was just as detailed as Games Workshop's would be rightly viewed as a lesser sculpt because it failed to take advantage of the increased size. A vehicle that was detailed to the same level as the Space Marine kit would also be viewed negatively, because it too failed to do anything with the additional space provided. You need not add detail for the sake of detail, a sin Games Workshop frequently commits, but the absence of details that could be there such as defined molding around the armor joints or crisper detail on the treads would be received poorly, and justly so.
As the space decreases, the level of difficulty on details goes up simply because there's less canvas to work with. A smaller model, such as a Gretchen, is not expected to be as detailed as an Ork Boy or Tau Fire Warrior largely because of this fact. They're both 28mm, so by your viewpoint they should all be equally detailed. They're not, so clearly they are failures? No, that simply isn't the case at all. Though I can concede that from what we've seen the Gretchen do a far better job of being characterful than the Zees do, that's not "detailing" as much as it is "look at the random crap we stuck on them!"
Now, even with all of that said, the picture shown is not the most promising thing ever and I share many of your reservations. However, given Mantic's singular ability to photograph models in the worst possible way, I will reserve judgement until I see more. A lot of their range looks quite awful in their official photos and then no where near that bad once they're out. They're not always "good" but I find they fall into the realm of "average" which is the trade-off you're going for when you want something for less than what the rest of the market is charging. The Zees cost between ~$1.50 (faction BOGOF booster pack) and $3 (single faction booster); you're not looking at the type of money Mierce or Kingdom Death want for their models here.
So you argue that a 28mm sculpt of a child, which would be 15mm tall, should have the same level of detail as a 28mm figure, despite every appendage and feature being half the size?
Of course, what did you expect? the scale gives what is and is not accepted as detail not the size, if a model is 28mm "scale" then there is a minimum accepted detail it should have on it, 15mm models have less detail on them because they are supposed to represent a smaller scale model not because they are 15mm, if mantic could not pull off a decent detailed small model for the scale they should either hire somebody who could do it or not attempt it at all.
For the record the models you showed have better formed hands than the Zees and they are tinier than them.
I look forward to your incredibly detailed 54mm ants and your featureless 6mm aircraft carriers.
You are not required to agree with my logic, I thought we are individuals.
In any case, I am expecting a certain level of detail from "28mm" miniatures even of they are 15mm tall, what Zees deliver is not average is bellow average.
54mm true scale ants, really? should I feel lucky you didn't ask for bacteria? I ahve seen people missing the point, the topic or the reason, but never all together.
His point is taking your argument to the extremes. If you are saying that the scale determines the detail level, then a 54mm ant would have to be very well-detailed indeed because 54mm is a fairly large scale. Also, an aircraft carrier should have no details at 6mm because it's such a tiny scale. Except that in both cases the opposite would be true; the ant would be microscopic as ants are in reality tiny and impossible to have detail while an aircraft carrier is a huge object so plenty of detail is available to be added despite the scale. However, that's going back to the point that scale determines nothing in terms of detail.
If you want to say "I have my expectations of what is to be done for these models" that's fine; to present it as a fact that a model's level of detail is determined by scale is entirely incorrect. Presented as "these models do not meet my expectations" is expressing an opinion and people will then disagree with you, and at that point you're truly into matters of personal taste where you will simply agree to disagree. To present something that objectively wrong (i.e. - that scale determines detail) as your justification for your opinion will cause people to point out that such a thing is indeed wrong.
It need not change your opinion, but hopefully it entices you to either re-evaluate your opinions or find a stronger justification if you wish to sway others (or you could just say "I don't like them for reasons" and move on). That is the point of a discussion, after all.
A model in scale represents what you would see normally at some distance away, so you can expect some "loss of detail" according to intended scale, but models of the same scale should have the same level of detail regardless of height, that been said any defense of the Zees fingers is unacceptable in my eyes.
PsychoticStorm wrote: A model in scale represents what you would see normally at some distance away, so you can expect some "loss of detail" according to intended scale, but models of the same scale should have the same level of detail regardless of height
And that is the fallacy that the extreme examples provided illustrate; the size of the model, which is informed by but not dictated by, its scale is the key determiner of detail. A larger model of the same quality will almost always have more detail than a smaller model. Are there exceptions where they can be equal? Sure, but generally when there was a very large model that's been reduced to merely a large model. Going from small to smaller is going to invariably lose detail.
Scale does not play into that equation outside of comparison to the norm. If an object is bigger than human height, it should be larger than the scale height and more detailed. If it is smaller than a human it will be less than the scale height, and less detail would be expected. That's all the scale does; it informs the viewer of the object's dimensions in relationship to something else. It has nothing to do with detail directly. You seem to be set on your, in my opinion, erroneous belief that the scale matters more than size so we're just belaboring that point now. If you're happy with that belief, you go for it. I think anyone who was unsure can make their own judgement from the information we've brought out.
On the topic of the Zees, I don't disagree with your concerns. However, they remain concerns because the data presented is woefully inadequate to begin screaming about the imminent collapse of the sky. It could be falling, and it could be fine. I reserve my determination until better data is available.
I'm not getting why this is such a difficult concept.
If you have a tool that allows you to engrave details on a model of no smaller than, for the purpose of this argument, 1mm, you can ideally fit 15 of these details adjacent to each other vertically on a 15mm model, 28 of them on a 28mm model, and 54 on a 54mm model. The difference between model scales is not as a result of the engraver skill (Indeed, the detail you seem to be asking for would require a microscope and tools normally used to engrave biblical passages on rice grains), but rather as a limitation of the space available.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the "competitors that do better" have been previously pointed out to be from the widely-considered best 15mm sculptor available and cost significantly more even discounting the KS exclusive price. You don't see me comparing and complaining about my Ford next to a Ferrari
And I would level the same verdict on the vast majority of the 15mm range on offer for similar prices. However, objecting due to personal views on aesthetics is completely different then being annoyed at physical impossibilities.
Since when their competitors are the 15mm companies? their competitors are companies that do "28mm" sculpts and they do good job at making small models with details.
Sorry the Zees are too soft and too unformed, the fact that some companies in 15mm do a batter job is just to add salt into wounds.
Ugh, I think it's about time we had a MOD move things along here. I think we can all agree that the one Zee looked like he is still WIP and that the picture isn't the best. Let's move on now.
Anyway, Mantic put up a new update today and included three new Plague pictures: Teraton, mortar & crew, and Plague Swarm. The new picture of the Plague Swarm gave a lot fo the details better than previous ones. It didn't look like a pile of leaves anymore. Details are very well sculpted on the mortar crew and the Teraton as well. Plus, the mutations to the Teraton make him look like a dragon, which is pretty cool. I'm a little disappointed now that I didn't go for the Plague booster, but I've still got round two, so I'll probably grab it then.
Barzam wrote: Ugh, I think it's about time we had a MOD move things along here. I think we can all agree that the one Zee looked like he is still WIP and that the picture isn't the best. Let's move on now.
Yes, I'll make that official - let's move on please!
At least until the next round of Zee sculpts/pictures are shown!
Latest full update:
It’s all in ruins!
Update #102 · Jul 16, 2013 · 21 comments
After last time’s shiny photos of the Rebs, we’ve got some scenery today and ok, go on, some Plague shots too!
Let’s do this.
The Ruined Battlezone has turned out fantastically - we think with our sculptor doing a great job of creating a selection of characterful pieces that turns your clean and shiny sci-fi city into a hollow, desolate, destroyed urban landscape, with broken wall and floor sections as well as piles of rubble for your gaming table.
Here’s Stew with more…
Ruined BattleZone
- Contains 4 x Ruins sprues and 1 x 48-piece connector sprue.
- The pieces in the top right join together to make a standalone pile of rubble that provides excellent cover.
- The similar rubble piece in the bottom right is designed to sit against a wall and works as a connector to hold the wall tiles together.
- These pieces can be used to make complete bombed-out buildings, or can be combined with the other BattleZones to add battle-damage to the edges of larger structures.
NOTE: All sprue designs are awaiting final confirmation from our factory, so there may some slight tweaks still to come, but we will ensure that you can still build just as much with them!
I think the opportunity to add these ruined sections to your Core World Buildings is a very enticing prospect making your tiles go further!
Oops!
There’s been a fair bit of discussion regarding the Fortifications sprue and the corner pieces…
It seems we made a mistake on the diagram only listing one corner piece - you get three Fortification sprues in a Battlezone (plus a Defence Line sprue) meaning you’d only get three corner pieces, which isn’t enough for a fortified bunker. Oops, sorry about that!
Well, after some jiggery pokery, we’ve fixed our diagram and added the additional Corner Piece, so there are now two per sprue (and Six per Battlezone!)
Some of you have also queried why the Defence Line sprue is part of the Fortifications Battlezone.
Well, the components from the Defence Line Sprue right from when we announced it as a stretch goal were going to be included on the Fortification sprue – in other words you were always going to get the Defence Line components as part of the Fortifications Battlezone.
As we started sculpting it however, it became apparent that we’d be able to produce a better product if we took the barricades and burst laser off and put them on a separate sprue. This then allowed us to add more fortification components to the other sprue, and stops you getting a gun on every single sprue, which would be rather a waste. The same logic applies to the Landing Pad sprue - the deflector pieces would have needed a sprue to themselves to allow the landing pad to do everything we wanted it to, but would have had very limited use anywhere except the edges of a landing pad. The Defence Line pieces fill exactly the same role but with many more uses on top. The flexibility and variation that tooling the set this way generates is by far and away better than what we could have done otherwise!
In addition, the initial playtesting of this game was done using almost exclusively barricades. Jake's plan was always to have lots of them in the game - low level cover makes for far more interesting tactical gameplay. The Defence Line sprue is now available in two BattleZones, and in both cases works perfectly on its own to provide this cover even if you don't want to combine it with the other tiles.
... Sniff. Uh Oh!
And finally – yep, it’s time for the Plague!
Here are three of the models from the Plague Booster set - the Plague Teraton, Plague Swarm and the Plague Mortar with crew.
Let us know what think in the comments!
Don't know what's worse about contracting this Plague - the zombification, or the stretched torso/tiny leg syndrome!
Don't know what's worse about contracting this Plague - the zombification, or the stretched torso/tiny leg syndrome!
Look at the bright side; there are obviously already clothing shops on hand for you to loot with appropriately out-of-proportion clothes to still give you a near-tailored fit!
Oddly enough, this is the detail that bothers me much more than anything else. I can accept a mutating disease making your proportions non-human, especially since it's a fairly consistent alteration among the specimens we've seen. That it mutates your clothes too stretches that suspension just a bit too much.
Still, I don't mind them as much as others they've shown.
The update was posted on the Deadzone thread in the Mantic section.
The plague leaf pile looks a lot better. I like the leaping centipede thing.
I know we'll probably have to get an extra plague teraton or two in my house.
Might have to grab a ruin battlezone now as well. I like the free standing rubble idea.
Thinking about that rubble, what would be neat would be some different accessory sprues further down the line- I'd love to see a debris sprue for example.
I actually like the mortar crew, distended shirt, jacket and all. At least the sculptor took the time to show that their clothes didn't completely fit following the mutation. I mean, look at his sleeves, they've ripped apart as his arms extended. Their pants, too. That Teraton though, that thing is going to look great painted up like the G1 Plague.
...I'm thinking those mortar dudes might actually be pretty cool after a leg swap (maybe at last something catachan bits can be good for? ) - same for all the 2nd/3rd gen stuff.
I dislike having to convert stuff to make it 'work' for what it was basically meant for but I might put the effort into it to do so, still.
So do all of these guys mutate exactly the same way, or do they just put the ones that look like they were outsourced through time and space to late 90s Gary Morely on mortar duty?
"Sorry, Steve, your mutation is just not particularly convincing, here's a coat that three children used to use to sneak into R rated movies, you're a mortar mutie now!"
plastictrees wrote:So do all of these guys mutate exactly the same way, or do they just put the ones that look like they were outsourced through time and space to late 90s Gary Morely on mortar duty? "Sorry, Steve, your mutation is just not particularly convincing, here's a coat that three children used to use to sneak into R rated movies, you're a mortar mutie now!"
Well, again from what I can see the Plague models all have that very inverted triangle shape to their bodies. The difference is the 1st and 2nd Generation have massively bulked out shoulders so you really don't notice the body shape as much.
The picture below shows the shape of the G1 and how it's the same aesthetic if you ignore the shoulders (which is admittedly hard to do). You can also see that his hand is pretty readily larger the size of his head, which would be another trait the 3rd gens share.
Spoiler:
So there's a bit of internal consistency to the aesthetic. Whether or not it's a GOOD aesthetic is up to the individual of course.
I wouldn't have guessed that those miniatures were from the same line let alone faction.
Really poor work on the mortar team. I'm not sure why people keep saying that their legs are tiny, clearly they have ridiculous stretched torsos. Just seems like a lazy representation of the way they appear to be intended to mutate based on the G1.
. I love them... I love them so much!
