I cannot believe people are siding with GW's profit line over the health of their hobby and local communities.

GW releasing products that are only sold online makes people use their online store more. Buying more products from them, than their LGS. This is the exact same thing as online discounters, but MUCH WORSE, because your own damn business partner is trying to take your business, instead of a compeditor.

Banning the use of the book 'hurting' players is overblown. GW's done this by experimenting with a distribution method that in the end, if carried out at a larger scale, will hurt your store and local community.

Kudos to the LGS's for standing up to this utter nonsense and short-sided cashgrab.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Considering this is what happens when GW advertises, do we want that?

GW should actually make that advert. Complete with a snarky looking guy at the end, who simply remarks "Now do you see why we don't advertise?"

Also, these calls of "WE MUST MAKE A STAND!" like GW is some terrifying tyrannical entity keeping the population under it's iron heel through the means of drooling cybernetic monsters that prowl the streets and disembowel anyone who complains really annoy me.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 warboss wrote:

While I wouldn't support a store in stopping casual players who came for a pickup game from using the rules, I would say making a store rule that keeps the older rules as completely legal in all games including casual is reasonable as is not allowing the new rules in tournies and other official events (with the proper notice of course in the posted tourney rules). As for sushi, plenty of stores do ban outside food if they sell food inside. Continuing your rather ridiculous analogy, do you think McDonalds would be ok if you sat down with a Papa John's pizza in their restaurant just because they dont' sell pizza?

Actually, many resturants allow you to come in with other food aslong as either you, or someone else in your party buys something from them.
This is just them being upset because they dont get so sell something, its like the stores that ban KS products because someone else got it from them before.

Many restaurants? I've never seen or been in one. The most I've seen is allowing people to bring in food for babies or kids with special dietary needs. You may be surprised to know that many local regulations don't allow it either and it's not to protect the business interests of the restaurants but rather to make sure there are no additional contaminents to consider if there is a food-borne illness. Either way, your ridiculous example is starting to derail the thread so I'll leave you to your eating in Wonderland.

My 2 cents..Overall… While I agree it is perfectly acceptable for GW to offer an “ online only “ product item. After all they own the IP and the rights to the product. The independent retailer also has the freedom to make the rules for any event he wants to run. Don’t like it, don’t play there. I’ve been buying GW models since RT came out and have purposely avoided partaking of some 40K versions as I have disliked the way the game played, the cost of some models or the poor quality of some of their product. You have the right to “ vote” with your feet ( or in this case your wallet as well).

I also work in Logistics for a fortune 500 American company ( 25 years) and am totally baffled by most of GW business practices. Whether initiative launches, product availability or marketing, communication and selling strategy for them it all seems chaotic ( I’m not familiar with GW’s business model or goals).

In our company we can afford to short sell, We have the inventory, multiple business categories and pricing options to compete ( and in many markets). The local businessman does not, In fact they most often are bound to their local economy and market. There often isn’t multiple revenue streams that they can play with. To assume they are protesting for nothing is absurd! I also know Pat at Gnomes Games personally. I like the man and understand. He is always fighting to get stuff from GW. I prefer to buy locally. I like to have something in my hand when I pay and walk out the door.. MY choice! If I order something from him, I know ( I could order it on line ) he will do everything to get it for me. I like to support my local businesses when I can. My local game store provides me with access to the gaming community. I don’t attend a school or know too many people in my professional circle who game; so for me it is in my benefit to support my local shop.

In the company I work for we fight for shelf space at every location we deal with. We don’t tell our retailers what to stock and how much they get. They tell us !. we spend massive amounts of money promoting our initiatives, benefits and value. We rely on repeat customers and will fight to get every new customer we can or market share from our competitors. We do that by helping and insuring our retailers get the product they want, in the amount they want and when they want it. The only way to make money is to sell something! Sell something that the consumer wants. If they don’t want it then innovate and create something they do want. You don’t make money if you don’t have stuff to sell. If GW thinks it can survive ( meaning make profits / provide shareholder returns) by pricing alone they are in denial. They should be selling all they can! The other game systems have shown that there are others willing to take market share from GW. The FLGS usually is a place to get folks started. Working together they could both benefit.

While I understand the arguments, I’m hoping someone at GW upper management trys to understand the market they are in ( maybe the UK is different ) and the potential for profit if they work with their retailers. In the mean time I can decide on my own to play in a tourney at gnome games or not. It will not prevent me from being a customer.

EDIT: whoops, wrong thread. I'm on a roll lately.


But, to make this post relevant, RE: that ad hotsauceman posted:

If companies didn't advertise because someone might take their ad and make a stupid pisstake parody of it, then pretty much no company ever would advertise. Certainly, it never stopped Billy Mays or that Shamwow guy, not that I think that type of advert would be appropriate for GW.

 warboss wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
To me this just smacks of "Spoiled brat Syndrome" in which, because they cant get it, neither can you. How exactly is this "Taking a stand" againts GW, they are not loosing revenue from this, its direct only remember? its like banning sushi from your store, because you can sell it, but you dont have thee kitchen to make it.
I think the fact that so many stores backed out to show how poorly planned and thought out this was.

I'm sorry that this is a simple inconvience to you as a gamer but the it's a matter of protecting the livelihood of the store owners that are affected by this. With that in mind, who is the "spoiled brat" in that situation? This is likely the first step of many in cutting out the store from necessary products to play the game with existing models and is IMO a totally justified stand for stores to take in regards to official events. GW was the first gaming company (I believe they beat TSR/WOTC to the punch IIRC) to cut out the distributor from most of their dealings to save 5-10% and the stores are the next logical hurdle in GW's mind between them and the consumer.

While I wouldn't support a store in stopping casual players who came for a pickup game from using the rules, I would say making a store rule that keeps the older rules as completely legal in all games including casual is reasonable as is not allowing the new rules in tournies and other official events (with the proper notice of course in the posted tourney rules). As for sushi, plenty of stores do ban outside food if they sell food inside. Continuing your rather ridiculous analogy, do you think McDonalds would be ok if you sat down with a Papa John's pizza in their restaurant just because they dont' sell pizza?

Lol. You put it rather well I think.
The more they can bully their way around, the more bullying we will have to tolerate.
I understand that there are no mom-n-pop hobby stores in the UK? If that's true it's a sad state of affairs. I'm glad I live in America and can give my support to small businesses that truly value me as a customer.

 StormK wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
To me this just smacks of "Spoiled brat Syndrome" in which, because they cant get it, neither can you. How exactly is this "Taking a stand" againts GW, they are not loosing revenue from this, its direct only remember? its like banning sushi from your store, because you can sell it, but you dont have thee kitchen to make it.
I think the fact that so many stores backed out to show how poorly planned and thought out this was.

I'm sorry that this is a simple inconvience to you as a gamer but the it's a matter of protecting the livelihood of the store owners that are affected by this. With that in mind, who is the "spoiled brat" in that situation? This is likely the first step of many in cutting out the store from necessary products to play the game with existing models and is IMO a totally justified stand for stores to take in regards to official events. GW was the first gaming company (I believe they beat TSR/WOTC to the punch IIRC) to cut out the distributor from most of their dealings to save 5-10% and the stores are the next logical hurdle in GW's mind between them and the consumer.

While I wouldn't support a store in stopping casual players who came for a pickup game from using the rules, I would say making a store rule that keeps the older rules as completely legal in all games including casual is reasonable as is not allowing the new rules in tournies and other official events (with the proper notice of course in the posted tourney rules). As for sushi, plenty of stores do ban outside food if they sell food inside. Continuing your rather ridiculous analogy, do you think McDonalds would be ok if you sat down with a Papa John's pizza in their restaurant just because they dont' sell pizza?

Lol. You put it rather well I think.
The more they can bully their way around, the more bullying we will have to tolerate.
I understand that there are no mom-n-pop hobby stores in the UK? That's truly a sad state of affairs. I'm glad I live in America and can give my support to small businesses that truly value me as a customer.

There are plenty of independent stockists and retailers in the UK. My FLGS, Battlequest Games, is ran by one guy, with the occasional friend of his standing in when he's on holiday.

Edited by Manchu

 gunslingerpro wrote:


And did it cross your mind that perhaps these stores are defending their livelyhood? Being upset about one direct only sales item may prevent them from cutting them out of the GW sales strategy entirely.

Exactly! I think that these stores are trying to send a message to GW. None of these stores are going to go out of business because "Death from the Skies" is direct only.

However, if GW can continue to release new, profitable product, and restrict it to their website only, while still getting local stores to host events for their games, it may be the first of many such releases. I think these stores are trying to make it clear to GW that providing gaming and hobby space for GW games is contingent on being able to actually sell GW merchandise in the store.

It's bad enough when GW makes a lot of 'niche' products direct only. Every 'limited release' or 'collectors' model that your local store can't sell you is lost revenue for them, and GW can take that revenue without having to use any of it to support local gaming (given that GW stores are thin on the ground in the US).

Taking mainstream, core products and making them direct only? I'm sure the local stores can see where that is headed. No one is claiming that the sky is falling just because of this one product. However, if this product becomes a trend, it's a portent of nothing good for local stores with GW. Imagine if all of the rulebooks, army books, codexes, and battalion boxes were direct only.

If, however, local gaming stores make it unequivocally clear that they aren't going to continue to support the "GW Hobby" (with tables, tournaments, and campaigns) while GW cuts them out of the profit stream, maybe GW will pay attention before the situation becomes dire. They have improved relations with their distributors before, so maybe there is some hope.

So to sum up 21 pages of stuff

GW released a "death from the sky's" codex that is required for some armies flyers. This codex is direct order only from GW. Many retailers are very angry about this and some are dropping GW models and games all together because of this. I just went on the GW website and it looks like they are sold out now as well.

My two cents... I believe GW is stepping all over what we call in the states a "monopoly". Unfortunately here they do not pass go or collect $200.

I think technically it would only be a monopoly if there were zero alternatives to GW products (IE, no other war games out there). So it's not a monopoly. It's still a gakky thing to do.

 StormK wrote:

That's ridiculous. A stand must be made. Imagine Ford Motors telling a used car dealership that the new model car could not be sold at their dealership.

You mean like Tesla Motors is doing? They are opening stores in high end malls selling directly to consumers. They just won a suit brought against them by auto dealerships in the New England area? The dealers sued Tesla saying it hurt their sales and that Tesla cars should only be sold through dealerships.

Though sympathetic to you plight and don't agree with what GW is doing. Your letter is far better stated and straightforward. Far more professional then the previous "Hey gaiz! Buy WMH!" ones.

The Deamon codex is releasing special edition codex and army books that focus on a specific god theme. It's almost twice the cost of the standard book too for some reason.

They sent an email out to retailers telling them to not accept preorders or payments for the special edition books and to instead order them directly from the site.

Economics: How does it work?

Has anyone considered that GW thought it wouldn't sell well, or that nobody would buy it, (like Dreadfleet) and they decided to make it Direct Only to save on the cost of having stores stock it? Dreadfleet is a brilliant example of something that stores carried, and failed quite incredibly to sell. Maybe they thought it would save face if the same happened here?

 Savageconvoy wrote:
The Deamon codex is releasing special edition codex and army books that focus on a specific god theme. It's almost twice the cost of the standard book too for some reason.

They sent an email out to retailers telling them to not accept preorders or payments for the special edition books and to instead order them directly from the site.

It's the same thing they did with the Dark Angels and CSM Limited Edition (xept that those only had 1 version of the LE, not 4). There's nothing different to the "Khorne-Limited-Edition" to the "Slaanesh-Limited-Edition" except the outer design.

-Shrike- wrote:
Has anyone considered that GW thought it wouldn't sell well, or that nobody would buy it, (like Dreadfleet) and they decided to make it Direct Only to save on the cost of having stores stock it? Dreadfleet is a brilliant example of something that stores carried, and failed quite incredibly to sell. Maybe they thought it would save face if the same happened here?

Yep and they were roundly shouted down.

That theory also explains part of why it sold out so fast.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
The Deamon codex is releasing special edition codex and army books that focus on a specific god theme. It's almost twice the cost of the standard book too for some reason.

They sent an email out to retailers telling them to not accept preorders or payments for the special edition books and to instead order them directly from the site.

The email also said that it was because they were extremely limited and GW fully expected them to sell out completely on the website over the weekend.

 pretre wrote:

-Shrike- wrote:
Has anyone considered that GW thought it wouldn't sell well, or that nobody would buy it, (like Dreadfleet) and they decided to make it Direct Only to save on the cost of having stores stock it? Dreadfleet is a brilliant example of something that stores carried, and failed quite incredibly to sell. Maybe they thought it would save face if the same happened here?

Yep and they were roundly shouted down.

That theory also explains part of why it sold out so fast.

The only fault I find with this is that the last offering (Blood in the Badlands? Whatever that campaign book was) sold out equally quickly. This isn't some side project or standalone game they were working on. It was a book for their core, #1 selling system.

I have trouble giving them the benefit of the doubt on this one.

-Shrike- wrote:
Has anyone considered that GW thought it wouldn't sell well, or that nobody would buy it, (like Dreadfleet) and they decided to make it Direct Only to save on the cost of having stores stock it? Dreadfleet is a brilliant example of something that stores carried, and failed quite incredibly to sell. Maybe they thought it would save face if the same happened here?

The difference between this, and dreadfleet, is that GW is marketing this as something that is -essential- if you play those models. If it was just a spin off book, that gave you fun missions to use flyers with, that would be different. But it's basically an extra few pages for the core rulebook/codex's, and without it, you can't play those thing's properly anymore.

If GW honestly thought that DftS wouldn't sell then...I don't know. I don't know how you could be that obtuse. Lots of people bought flyers. Lots of people are going to need the rules. Don't they have a rough estimate of flyers sales? Shouldn't they be able to gauge the demand fairly well?

Don't they realize that this kind of crap leads to pirating? What is the customer supposed to do if they can't find the rules for their product?

Edited by Manchu

Wow. Just wow. We are well on our way to a well-deserved 'Ol Yeller of this thread.

Well, that escalated quickly.

Both of them need to be reprimanded for cultural insults. Its no different than racism.

Ladies, Gentlemen, Children, and forumgoers, can we get this back on topic?

-Shrike- wrote:
Has anyone considered that GW thought it wouldn't sell well, or that nobody would buy it, (like Dreadfleet) and they decided to make it Direct Only to save on the cost of having stores stock it? Dreadfleet is a brilliant example of something that stores carried, and failed quite incredibly to sell. Maybe they thought it would save face if the same happened here?

The question would be then.. why is the company producing stuff that won't sell! If Management thought that then they should have done their research on what the market wants.( like up to date codex's (2 years+?.. I can completly change my product line in less time!) and pulled the plug early on for such a low demand non revenue product!

-Shrike- wrote:
Has anyone considered that GW thought it wouldn't sell well, or that nobody would buy it, (like Dreadfleet) and they decided to make it Direct Only to save on the cost of having stores stock it? Dreadfleet is a brilliant example of something that stores carried, and failed quite incredibly to sell. Maybe they thought it would save face if the same happened here?

That's no reason to prevent FLGS' stocking it.

 Baragash wrote:

-Shrike- wrote:
Has anyone considered that GW thought it wouldn't sell well, or that nobody would buy it, (like Dreadfleet) and they decided to make it Direct Only to save on the cost of having stores stock it? Dreadfleet is a brilliant example of something that stores carried, and failed quite incredibly to sell. Maybe they thought it would save face if the same happened here?

That's no reason to prevent FLGS' stocking it.

You've missed quite a bit as this is not really in contention.

FLGS aren't prevented from stocking it once they refill the stock. They can order direct-only items as normal for less of a discount. The problem in this case was that they had no opportunity to order it before it sold out because of the secrecy policy and once they could order it, it was sold out. It put them at a disadvantage that they had no way to overcome.

 Baragash wrote:

-Shrike- wrote:
Has anyone considered that GW thought it wouldn't sell well, or that nobody would buy it, (like Dreadfleet) and they decided to make it Direct Only to save on the cost of having stores stock it? Dreadfleet is a brilliant example of something that stores carried, and failed quite incredibly to sell. Maybe they thought it would save face if the same happened here?

That's no reason to prevent FLGS' stocking it.

Yep... then the responcibility is the FLGS to promote it, sell it, grow customer base for it. sell more ... and so forth. Can't do that when you don't have that!

 pretre wrote:

-Shrike- wrote:
Has anyone considered that GW thought it wouldn't sell well, or that nobody would buy it, (like Dreadfleet) and they decided to make it Direct Only to save on the cost of having stores stock it? Dreadfleet is a brilliant example of something that stores carried, and failed quite incredibly to sell. Maybe they thought it would save face if the same happened here?

Yep and they were roundly shouted down.

That theory also explains part of why it sold out so fast.

I'm not sure why they could have thought that. They're adding a model (which they have already released) to their most popular range, for their most popular game. Just a basic understanding of what they sell should have told them that it would be a big seller to all the Space Marine players that have been wanting an excuse to buy a Stormraven/use the one they already bought.

 Baragash wrote:

-Shrike- wrote:
Has anyone considered that GW thought it wouldn't sell well, or that nobody would buy it, (like Dreadfleet) and they decided to make it Direct Only to save on the cost of having stores stock it? Dreadfleet is a brilliant example of something that stores carried, and failed quite incredibly to sell. Maybe they thought it would save face if the same happened here?

That's no reason to prevent FLGS' stocking it.

Right, but by having it as Available to Order, it's GW telling the FLGS, "You probably shouldn't keep this in stock because we don't think it'll sell well enough for you."

I'd rather it be ATO and have to special order it for my customers (Which, when it is reprinted, my sales rep says I can...) than have it on my shelf when the new Ork and Space Marine codexes come out.

Here are the *if's* that make me alright with GW making this ATO only:
- *If* the customer plays Space Marines, Black Templars or Orks.
- *If* they didn't already get the White Dwarf with the rules in it.
- *If* they don't have the iPad codex with that information in it already.
- *If* they actually plan on using the Talon/ Raven or Ork Flyer.
- *If* someone else in their gaming group hasn't already got a copy of the rules.

That's enough *ifs* for me to say, "I'll special order it for the customer."
My only gripes about it as a retailer:
1.) It should have had a larger print run.
2.) It should have been announce a week before release.
3.) It should have been available to us to order (Even if at the lower ATO margin) before release.

When has GW ever been accused of understanding their customer base?

Yes right. .. in practical terms its not really any different from them not being allowed to stock it, the effect is the same.

You would have to have thought that this release would have been really popular - there must be loads of people who have the fliers but missed the WD, and haven't got the technical savvy to look under some rocks online. Many more still who might otherwise have bought the model, but couldn't find the rules for it.

What would have been the problem with printing enough to satisfy demand at both the GW stores and FLGS stockists?

I think both the issues relating to the OP's post, and Mikhalia's comments, show that the independent retailers aren't really that enamoured with GW right now (to put it mildly! - the OP reads to me like someone who is angry, not just upset). Do GW not realise that these FLGS owners and staff are in many cases a useful addition to their own stores in bringing people into the GW fold? And following on from this, and other issues over the past couple of years (tournament support, Finecast returns etc.) those shop staff are less likely than ever to be promoting GW products?

The whole thing just seems completely nonsensical to me, and I can't see who benefits from it; the stores, the customers, GW themselves.

 derek wrote:

 pretre wrote:

-Shrike- wrote:
Has anyone considered that GW thought it wouldn't sell well, or that nobody would buy it, (like Dreadfleet) and they decided to make it Direct Only to save on the cost of having stores stock it? Dreadfleet is a brilliant example of something that stores carried, and failed quite incredibly to sell. Maybe they thought it would save face if the same happened here?

Yep and they were roundly shouted down.

That theory also explains part of why it sold out so fast.

I'm not sure why they could have thought that. They're adding a model (which they have already released) to their most popular range, for their most popular game. Just a basic understanding of what they sell should have told them that it would be a big seller to all the Space Marine players that have been wanting an excuse to buy a Stormraven/use the one they already bought.

You and your logic...

I officially take my leave from this thread!

My FLGS owner said he was going to contact his rep and if the book isn't going to be available through trade sales he has a plan.

He'll stop stocking flyers.

The store doesn't stock much GW stuff now anyway, although the owner clearly wants to sell more GW product and has been doing so for 25 years. He's seen the ups and downs of GW Trade Sales behavior in the past and isn't surprised they'd do something like this with the flyer book. Although he had thought they had learned their lesson by now.

Oh, and he said ordering direct only items is at apparently a 20% discount not the normal 45%. Also, unlike his trade account which has a nice line of credit and shipping is free he has to pay up front for the product and shipping for direct only items. He said "at 20% I'm loosing money so they're effectively telling me I can't order that product."

I think that GW is doing this so they can test the waters with exspansion books. Because this one for flyers is doing so well I expect one for tanks (armoured strike for example) or infantry (Flesh and blood) will soon be in the pipeline. By doing this GW can make people buy several books instead of just one codex. Expansion sets are a common thing, a codex is a sort of expansion.

This means new models etc will be in these expansions. Fantasy isn't safe either. Throw about three or more magic items at each race. A few new spells or alternate lore attributes and you have an expansion. Just need a name a cover art and a few hours to spare writing in some fluff about the Empire fighting someone. Imagine storm of magic all slimed down without so many uber spells.

People will buy these books to get access to the new rules etc. This will give them a potential advantage over their opponents. This means sales so there will be more of these things in future, alot more considering how much they have made off of this one book already.

The age of expansion books has begun...... . . . .

Nevermind.

@leech I can only see them doing that if they keep the extended gaps between codex's/army books however the current feeling seems to be they are trying to narrow the gaps between updates.

However if they do move to this as a sales model I believe the age if expansions will quickly become the age of exodus.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
@leech I can only see them doing that if they keep the extended gaps between codex's/army books however the current feeling seems to be they are trying to narrow the gaps between updates.

However if they do move to this as a sales model I believe the age if expansions will quickly become the age of exodus.

You are right, there is no certainty they will do this.

However I do remember in 2nd edition 40K the dark millenium expansion. It had all the rules for psykers and tanks etc.

 Leech wrote:
You are right, there is no certainty they will do this.

However I do remember in 2nd edition 40K the dark millenium expansion. It had all the rules for psykers and tanks etc.

Oh come on. That's the closest example you could think of for expansions?

Planetstrike? Spearhead? Cities of Death? Chapter Approved? They've certainly put out a number of 'expansions' over time since Dark Millenium.

 pretre wrote:

 Leech wrote:
You are right, there is no certainty they will do this.

However I do remember in 2nd edition 40K the dark millenium expansion. It had all the rules for psykers and tanks etc.

Oh come on. That's the closest example you could think of for expansions?

Planetstrike? Spearhead? Cities of Death? Chapter Approved? They've certainly put out a number of 'expansions' over time since Dark Millenium.

I'm sorry, I was not clear. What I mean is that Dark millenium had essential rules in it. Cites of death, planet strike etc are just add-ons and need an opponent to agree to them. This flyer stuff does not (though flyers shgould require opponent's concent).

 Leech wrote:
I think that GW is doing this so they can test the waters with exspansion books. Because this one for flyers is doing so well I expect one for tanks (armoured strike for example) or infantry (Flesh and blood) will soon be in the pipeline. By doing this GW can make people buy several books instead of just one codex. Expansion sets are a common thing, a codex is a sort of expansion.

This means new models etc will be in these expansions. Fantasy isn't safe either. Throw about three or more magic items at each race. A few new spells or alternate lore attributes and you have an expansion. Just need a name a cover art and a few hours to spare writing in some fluff about the Empire fighting someone. Imagine storm of magic all slimed down without so many uber spells.

People will buy these books to get access to the new rules etc. This will give them a potential advantage over their opponents. This means sales so there will be more of these things in future, alot more considering how much they have made off of this one book already.

The age of expansion books has begun...... . . . .

As a general idea, expansion books could be great, BUT...

The idea of having books that add stuff to each army at the same time is perhaps the only was to have a balanced rule set, which is why companies like Privateer Press and CB do it. The problem is that both of these companies started off with a balanced rule set to start and each expansion includes additions for each faction.

40k isn't balanced, and DftS doesn't include material for each faction. Slapping expansion books on top of a rotating schedule of Codex releases looks like a way to get the worst of both worlds: large disparities between the suitability of individual armies, and expansions that are only useful for some armies.

-Shrike- wrote:
Has anyone considered that GW thought it wouldn't sell well, or that nobody would buy it, (like Dreadfleet) and they decided to make it Direct Only to save on the cost of having stores stock it? Dreadfleet is a brilliant example of something that stores carried, and failed quite incredibly to sell. Maybe they thought it would save face if the same happened here?

Dreadfleet flopping was 100% GW's fault. They released a brand-new game with 1 week notice to their customer base, and did nothing to promote it even after release other than a couple of small articles in WD and on their blog.

Find me any other company that does this and succeeds.

I need..no...I DEMAND an expansion book for Black Templar veteran sergeants. With so much variety and versatility in the roles that they fill, I want to see this explored fully.

Imagine that, a retail company doesn't advertise its product and no one buys it...

-Shrike- wrote:
Has anyone considered that GW thought it wouldn't sell well, or that nobody would buy it, (like Dreadfleet) and they decided to make it Direct Only to save on the cost of having stores stock it? Dreadfleet is a brilliant example of something that stores carried, and failed quite incredibly to sell. Maybe they thought it would save face if the same happened here?

Yup, releasing new stuff is a risky business, and GW should be commended for playing it safe.

If only there were some sort of worldwide communications network that that companies could use to let potential customers know about products that they had currently in development. They could create some sort of 'page' showing previews, and getting feedback on that product, and could even take early pre-release orders so they would know in advance what sort of interest there was in the product.


Alas, such technology is clearly just the stuff of scifi theatre.

 insaniak wrote:

-Shrike- wrote:
Has anyone considered that GW thought it wouldn't sell well, or that nobody would buy it, (like Dreadfleet) and they decided to make it Direct Only to save on the cost of having stores stock it? Dreadfleet is a brilliant example of something that stores carried, and failed quite incredibly to sell. Maybe they thought it would save face if the same happened here?

Yup, releasing new stuff is a risky business, and GW should be commended for playing it safe.

If only there were some sort of worldwide communications network that that companies could use to let potential customers know about products that they had currently in development. They could create some sort of 'page' showing previews, and getting feedback on that product, and could even take early pre-release orders so they would know in advance what sort of interest there was in the product.


Alas, such technology is clearly just the stuff of scifi theatre.

What you speak of is clearly witchcraft and heresy.

 insaniak wrote:

-Shrike- wrote:
Has anyone considered that GW thought it wouldn't sell well, or that nobody would buy it, (like Dreadfleet) and they decided to make it Direct Only to save on the cost of having stores stock it? Dreadfleet is a brilliant example of something that stores carried, and failed quite incredibly to sell. Maybe they thought it would save face if the same happened here?

Yup, releasing new stuff is a risky business, and GW should be commended for playing it safe.

If only there were some sort of worldwide communications network that that companies could use to let potential customers know about products that they had currently in development. They could create some sort of 'page' showing previews, and getting feedback on that product, and could even take early pre-release orders so they would know in advance what sort of interest there was in the product.


Alas, such technology is clearly just the stuff of scifi theatre.

I see what you did there.

I'm only on page 4, so I apologize if this has been covered.

The local GW here is closing it's doors by the end of the month. I don't live in some small out of the way town or anything, I'm in freaking Ottawa, Ontario. People here are only going to have the online route or their FLGS to purchase models. It seems to me that GW would want to have a good relationship with owners to help sell their product in locations where they don't have a store . . .

Revelation just hit me...

GW runs themselves much like the Emporium of Mankind... shunning technology and all.

Did you intentionally type Emporium or did you mess up Imperium and it autocorrected to the wrong word? Emporium works well though, it's funny.

 Bylak wrote:
I'm only on page 4, so I apologize if this has been covered.

The local GW here is closing it's doors by the end of the month. I don't live in some small out of the way town or anything, I'm in freaking Ottawa, Ontario. People here are only going to have the online route or their FLGS to purchase models. It seems to me that GW would want to have a good relationship with owners to help sell their product in locations where they don't have a store . . .

GW's answer is the bottom line of the level of profitability that it has to show it's shareholders. The Alamo Store is a prime example of a store that was profitable store in a incredibly wealthy area, but was not profitable enough to its current business model. I fully believe that GW will get more and more product online only that you can order from its GW one man store and/or from home. The increase of profits removing the retailer equation all together from their current revenue streamlining process is a lot.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

 Bylak wrote:
I'm only on page 4, so I apologize if this has been covered.

The local GW here is closing it's doors by the end of the month. I don't live in some small out of the way town or anything, I'm in freaking Ottawa, Ontario. People here are only going to have the online route or their FLGS to purchase models. It seems to me that GW would want to have a good relationship with owners to help sell their product in locations where they don't have a store . . .

GW's answer is the bottom line of the level of profitability that it has to show it's shareholders. The Alamo Store is a prime example of a store that was profitable store in a incredibly wealthy area, but was not profitable enough to its current business model. I fully believe that GW will get more and more product online only that you can order from its GW one man store and/or from home. The increase of profits removing the retailer equation all together from their current revenue streamlining process is a lot.

I guess to go along with this line of thought (and I apologize in advance because this post is really going to read like a PP vs. GW argument) I look at GW and I see a company that's rolling back it's support for the community, I don't see a ton of support for local tournaments, I don't seem to get a lot of news. I then look to PP and I see a company that seems to actively engage the community, releases new free content on a fairly regular basis for it's customers, has some pretty sweet league and tournament support. My question here is outside of some of the major tournaments does GW actually offer a lot of these services to it's gaming community that PP offers? The reason why I ask is because to me right now it looks like the only thing that GW really has going for them in a community outreach sense is it's brick and mortar stores. If it plans to ramp those down without increasing it's presence in the community in other ways how does it plan on surviving? I totally agree that they would see short term gains with the removal of the upkeep of it's brick and mortar stores, but like another poster in the thread mentioned earlier what happens to them when they become more of a competitor with LGS as opposed to supplier? If there's no stores to stock their products other than LGS and they have no outreach or advertisements other than White Dwarf and online announcements a week in advance of releases how can it work?

I really do feel like I'm missing something here. Like, that their community support has to be better than I think it is or more behind the scenes or something. I know for the longest time the biggest thing GW had going for them was that they were essentially one of the only miniature games in town but that is nowhere near the reality of the gaming world anymore. Is it that mindset that still drives them now? (joking) Do they think they're banks in America and that they're too big to fail or something? (/joking)

 Bylak wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

 Bylak wrote:
I'm only on page 4, so I apologize if this has been covered.

The local GW here is closing it's doors by the end of the month. I don't live in some small out of the way town or anything, I'm in freaking Ottawa, Ontario. People here are only going to have the online route or their FLGS to purchase models. It seems to me that GW would want to have a good relationship with owners to help sell their product in locations where they don't have a store . . .

GW's answer is the bottom line of the level of profitability that it has to show it's shareholders. The Alamo Store is a prime example of a store that was profitable store in a incredibly wealthy area, but was not profitable enough to its current business model. I fully believe that GW will get more and more product online only that you can order from its GW one man store and/or from home. The increase of profits removing the retailer equation all together from their current revenue streamlining process is a lot.

I guess to go along with this line of thought (and I apologize in advance because this post is really going to read like a PP vs. GW argument) I look at GW and I see a company that's rolling back it's support for the community, I don't see a ton of support for local tournaments, I don't seem to get a lot of news. I then look to PP and I see a company that seems to actively engage the community, releases new free content on a fairly regular basis for it's customers, has some pretty sweet league and tournament support. My question here is outside of some of the major tournaments does GW actually offer a lot of these services to it's gaming community that PP offers? The reason why I ask is because to me right now it looks like the only thing that GW really has going for them in a community outreach sense is it's brick and mortar stores. If it plans to ramp those down without increasing it's presence in the community in other ways how does it plan on surviving? I totally agree that they would see short term gains with the removal of the upkeep of it's brick and mortar stores, but like another poster in the thread mentioned earlier what happens to them when they become more of a competitor with LGS as opposed to supplier? If there's no stores to stock their products other than LGS and they have no outreach or advertisements other than White Dwarf and online announcements a week in advance of releases how can it work?

I really do feel like I'm missing something here. Like, that their community support has to be better than I think it is or more behind the scenes or something. I know for the longest time the biggest thing GW had going for them was that they were essentially one of the only miniature games in town but that is nowhere near the reality of the gaming world anymore. Is it that mindset that still drives them now? (joking) Do they think they're banks in America and that they're too big to fail or something? (/joking)

Nope, that is exactly GWs problem right now. They are treating their business like a toy company, they churn out models and we buy them. The end. There is nothing else to the hobby in the eyes of their management.


@Adam LongWalker, GW very clearly want to cut out FLGS. They can sell models to them for $25 or simply replace them with a GW store and sell boxes for $50. Pretty simple choice in their eyes, what they don't understand is that the rest of the world is bigger than the UK, where supposedly every town has a GW store. Death from the Skies is just another step towards cutting out the middle man they see as stealing their profit (don't believe me and think that it's just cos they didn't think it would sell well, the new edge paints are direct order only too). Kirby made a statement in the last financial report about wanting to open 800 more shops in the US because for some reason they seem to think the UK business model will work there. They want all FLGS in the US that are selling GW products to be GW stores as that way they can control every every step of the process from manufacturing the models to selling them direct to you, and therefore that entire $50 note you hand them for a model that costs $3 to produce, pack and ship is going strait in their pocket and they don't have to share with other stores. [/rant]

While not the only game in town now, GW still has the lion's share of the market. Probably less today than ever before, but still more than most everyone else. The problem, such as it is, is that GW is a public company. They aren't playing the same game as other companies in the market (who if memory serves are almost all private) because they are not following the logical course of action for a business to make as much money as possible. Their goal is to make this quarter look like the same quarter last year plus a bit of growth, because that's what their owners want to see. Is it stupid and unsustainable to engage in that type of behavior in the long run? Sure, but one need only look at what happened to the world in 2008 to see how short-sighted the market and its priorities can be.

Death From the Skies is not, as some people have said, an essential rulebook in the long-term. Today it might be, but on the whole it's a stop-gap and cash grab by GW. As those army books get updated to include flyers the need for DftS drops to nearly nothing, and Space Marines and Orks seemingly get an update every edition (Orks missed 5th meaning they're likely on the radar and Marines, well, do you really think they won't get a 6th edition codex?). Black Templars are the only ones that seem to be on the "unlikely to see an updated book" list.

It could very well be the case that in a year's time GW expects for there to be no further need for DftS and will stop offering it for sale at all. Pure speculation, of course, since GW doesn't talk about anything more than a week in advance, but through this lens at least it's just trying to grab all the money they can while they can instead of a pre-cursor to a war on retailers. Given the opening paragraph it could be that numbers were flagging from poor sales and this was a fast way to snag some quick revenue. Sharing that revenue, at least initially, would defeat the goal of appeasing the fund managers. This would also explain the lack of a simple PDF or unit card which could have been done at any time for trivial cost; GW holding onto things it can put out on the (relative) cheap for quick cash infusions when a launch falls flat.

Back to the topic of poor GW/FLGS relations, the other events mikhala posts about are more ominous, and I can understand how in totality they demand that something be done. I just wonder if the leadership of GW is so oblivious to that sum of anti-retailer actions they've been taking and/or how bad some of their trade reps are that the real reason for the backlash to DftS eludes them and they think that retailers are, to use the phrase of some here, just being spoiled brats. After their behavior over the past few years it honestly wouldn't surprise me.

 Xzerios wrote:
Revelation just hit me...

GW runs themselves much like the Emporium of Mankind... shunning technology and all.

There was a pretty good article I read on this that says the same thing... http://thefrontlinegamer.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/is-imperium-metaphor-for-games-workshop.html

I'm not sure how a company with an annual revenue in excess of 100 million pounds would consider selling 800 copies of a book to be a "cash grab."

I think it is reasonable to infer that GW's corporate management has felt embattled in the marketplace for going on several years now and has been exploring ways in which to hurt and attack what they irrationally view as competitors.

GW is not confident enough to wage war with the weapons of product quality, competitive pricing, and customer loyalty. Instead,GW's management has sought to use spurious legal means and market shenanigans to dictate their terms to the market. GW is acting like its market share is a foregone conclusion and attempting to use its relative size and bulk to dominate the market. The fallacy is that GW's aggressiveness is due to the contraction of this market share, and GW's actions have done little more than hasten the contraction.

@Adam LongWalker, GW very clearly want to cut out FLGS. They can sell models to them for $25 or simply replace them with a GW store and sell boxes for $50. Pretty simple choice in their eyes, what they don't understand is that the rest of the world is bigger than the UK, where supposedly every town has a GW store. Death from the Skies is just another step towards cutting out the middle man they see as stealing their profit (don't believe me and think that it's just cos they didn't think it would sell well, the new edge paints are direct order only too). Kirby made a statement in the last financial report about wanting to open 800 more shops in the US because for some reason they seem to think the UK business model will work there. They want all FLGS in the US that are selling GW products to be GW stores as that way they can control every every step of the process from manufacturing the models to selling them direct to you, and therefore that entire $50 note you hand them for a model that costs $3 to produce, pack and ship is going strait in their pocket and they don't have to share with other stores. [/rant]

It's hard to believe that a company or anyone in GW don't understand the north american market or how business work here. If they think the UK business model will work here, they must fire some people because they really suck at there job.

hellpato wrote:

It's hard to believe that a company or anyone in GW don't understand the north american market or how business work here. If they think the UK business model will work here, they must fire some people because they really suck at there job.

Kirby.

Talk to Indy stores about their relationship with GW prior to his 'intervention', then talk to them about their current relationship with GW, talk about the management he beheaded and the relocation of GW's NA HQ on his extended tour of the colonies.

His company, his vision, his abject fethwit mission.

Read his little red book. Then despair of a modern company that holds this Gordon Gekko inspired drivel as gospel...

There's your spider in the web, there's the man single-handedly steering the leviathan on it's slow, laborious journey to extinction, after he's squeezed and squeezed it of cash for his retirement.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:


There's your spider in the web, there's the man single-handedly steering the leviathan on it's slow, laborious journey to extinction, after he's squeezed and squeezed it of cash for his retirement.

I have wondered if the inevitable goal was to drive the company into the arms of a much larger manufacturer like Hasbro.

Given the recent trend of consolidation long standing brands and franchises under fewer and fewer mega-media corporations, it is only a matter of time...

Personal wealth is only his endgame; force GW to embrace and be subsumed by a much larger entity the ultimate achievement.

 Pacific wrote:

 Xzerios wrote:
Revelation just hit me...

GW runs themselves much like the Emporium of Mankind... shunning technology and all.

There was a pretty good article I read on this that says the same thing... http://thefrontlinegamer.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/is-imperium-metaphor-for-games-workshop.html

That is a really good well and written article.

Exactly what I predicted has transpired, many knee jerk reactions and an empty shelf. Thanks GeeDub for assisting me in selling many flyer models, (next time perhaps send the stores a copy for events as there are rules I many need to know).

I wonder, how many hot headed store owners will be on the phone Monday with GW ordering flyers?

I could explain why GW sells some things direct only but if you’re smart enough you already know. If you don’t already know explaining it to you will only serve to confuse you more.

Wow. Could you be more condescending?

I could.

Redirecting this to be less confrontational, does anyone know who controls what percentage of the company via shares? I know some of the insiders and former suits have lots of stock, but who exactly has the lion's share?

 WarOne wrote:
Redirecting this to be less confrontational, does anyone know who controls what percentage of the company via shares? I know some of the insiders and former suits have lots of stock, but who exactly has the lion's share?

http://investor.games-workshop.com/shareholder-statistics/

Here's an article from a couple of years ago that goes into some details regarding the major shareholders:

http://theback40k.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/who-owns-games-workshop.html

I agree completely though with the general sentiment both of this thread and others like it - practically every complaint levelled at GW has been in response to plans formulated after the company became a PLC.

I'm not sure if it was in this thread, or again another one like, but someone was asking whether Privateer Press will go the same way as GW. In a sense perhaps they are already (and you could make an argument that such is the fate of all companies once they reach a certain size), but I think while that company is still privately owned, and doesn't have to concentrate solely on shareholder dividends, then there will still ultimately be a gulf between those companies in terms of company policy and therefore customer perception.

niceguyteddy wrote:
Exactly what I predicted has transpired, many knee jerk reactions and an empty shelf. Thanks GeeDub for assisting me in selling many flyer models, (next time perhaps send the stores a copy for events as there are rules I many need to know).

I wonder, how many hot headed store owners will be on the phone Monday with GW ordering flyers?

I could explain why GW sells some things direct only but if you’re smart enough you already know. If you don’t already know explaining it to you will only serve to confuse you more.

You must have a lot of friends. Openly calling people stupid on the internet because they disagree with a policy is the first sign of a small mind.

I must protest sir. I did not call anyone stupid, I only mentioned the smart and confused. The stupid need not be pointed out, they reveal themselves.

 Lorizael wrote:

 WarOne wrote:
Redirecting this to be less confrontational, does anyone know who controls what percentage of the company via shares? I know some of the insiders and former suits have lots of stock, but who exactly has the lion's share?

http://investor.games-workshop.com/shareholder-statistics/

Hmm... So the guys in charge of GW are primarily funds that seek to squeeze GW for all its worth.

No surprise there.

If we can dial back the snarkiness and drop the digs and insults please.

Thank you.

niceguyteddy wrote:
Exactly what I predicted has transpired, many knee jerk reactions and an empty shelf. Thanks GeeDub for assisting me in selling many flyer models, (next time perhaps send the stores a copy for events as there are rules I many need to know).

I wonder, how many hot headed store owners will be on the phone Monday with GW ordering flyers?

I could explain why GW sells some things direct only but if you’re smart enough you already know. If you don’t already know explaining it to you will only serve to confuse you more.

And I had 50 players all weekend for a GT, and still have flyers on the shelf. Many of them are Interested in the new rules, but since not one of those 50 veteran players or my store has a copy, they are still fence sitting.

Just to put out an opposing opinion.

This may get lost in the huge amount of postings but looking at this as a long time gamer I think this is the issue:

In the past GW would have put out a FAQ or to make it more jazzy: a specific White Dwarf article as well to update the flyers and codexes. Then watch flyers "fly off the shelves".

To release the document GW order only and limitied (sold out!) quantities for about $40 Canadian is ummm er, no words for it other than "greedy" and "ill conceived".

I personally would be worried they may do this again. It is a nasty trend that I could not support. I am assuming this is a "mistake" which they manage to do on occassion. If this is planned method in the future, I am done playing by their rules and my gaming group will go with our house rules like we did in the past.

They really need a gaming "focus group" to clue them in a bit better on the bunch of us picky individuals who like our rules at least a little bit stable.

 Talizvar wrote:
This may get lost in the huge amount of postings but looking at this as a long time gamer I think this is the issue:

In the past GW would have put out a FAQ or to make it more jazzy: a specific White Dwarf article as well to update the flyers and codexes. Then watch flyers "fly off the shelves".

To release the document GW order only and limitied (sold out!) quantities for about $40 Canadian is ummm er, no words for it other than "greedy" and "ill conceived".

I personally would be worried they may do this again. It is a nasty trend that I could not support. I am assuming this is a "mistake" which they manage to do on occassion. If this is planned method in the future, I am done playing by their rules and my gaming group will go with our house rules like we did in the past.

They really need a gaming "focus group" to clue them in a bit better on the bunch of us picky individuals who like our rules at least a little bit stable.

Unfortunately, the trend is just the opposite. All the people I knew at GW for the last 20 years are gone. I have no contact with the the accountants and HR people who run the company. In the few conversations I've had, the tone has been very condescending, and anything I said was dismissed as wrong, and they knew better.

Most of the benefits of being a GW 'Parnership" store are just gone.
Any money spent on promotions is gone. They see no need for tournaments or 'ardboyz, and pretty much sneer at the ideas. They claim over and over that they don't want to sell a 'tournament' game. Somehow needing usuable rules is blamed on tournament players.
They quit putting packing slips in my orders, to save money. No other supplier does this. It's insane.

Lots of little changes, all atrributed easliy to someone in charge, with no gaming background at all, making little cuts to save pennies, and shift business away from FLGS.

Talking its useless. All anyone at GW does is try to explain why what is happening works, or to convince you that their is no problem, and we should be happy.

"Dropping GW sales? Really Mike? Wow, we are doing great, so is everyone else. tsk tsk".

Somehow less support, zero information, and less GW product to sell aren't factors they think affect sales. Worst, this last move cost them the last of my trust. What it boils down to is that as a store, I still need to maximize my sales of their products. To do this I need run events, and support the hobby. To do that, I have to have some enthusiasm for the games, company, and models. This sort of breaks down when they treat retailers like crap. I still have a job to do. It's now a lot harder to do, and I get angry about that.

 mikhaila wrote:

Unfortunately, the trend is just the opposite. All the people I knew at GW for the last 20 years are gone. I have no contact with the the accountants and HR people who run the company. In the few conversations I've had, the tone has been very condescending, and anything I said was dismissed as wrong, and they knew better.

Most of the benefits of being a GW 'Parnership" store are just gone.
Any money spent on promotions is gone. They see no need for tournaments or 'ardboyz, and pretty much sneer at the ideas. They claim over and over that they don't want to sell a 'tournament' game. Somehow needing usuable rules is blamed on tournament players.
They quit putting packing slips in my orders, to save money. No other supplier does this. It's insane.

Lots of little changes, all atrributed easliy to someone in charge, with no gaming background at all, making little cuts to save pennies, and shift business away from FLGS.

Talking its useless. All anyone at GW does is try to explain why what is happening works, or to convince you that their is no problem, and we should be happy.

"Dropping GW sales? Really Mike? Wow, we are doing great, so is everyone else. tsk tsk".

Somehow less support, zero information, and less GW product to sell aren't factors they think affect sales. Worst, this last move cost them the last of my trust. What it boils down to is that as a store, I still need to maximize my sales of their products. To do this I need run events, and support the hobby. To do that, I have to have some enthusiasm for the games, company, and models. This sort of breaks down when they treat retailers like crap. I still have a job to do. It's now a lot harder to do, and I get angry about that.

I would say that this is surprising to hear, but it really is not that surprising. It is hard to believe that GW would want to behave like this, but I have found that GW can behave inscrutably irrational.

Your experience does seem to further indicate that there is something seriously wrong with the health of Games Workshop. That someone at GW felt that the company needed to save the cost of including packing slips suggests to me that GW has become paranoid about costs to the point of irrationality. The company slashed costs aggressively under Wells, but if GW is down to saving the cost of packing slips it must not have been enough to keep profits steady for much longer.

Although on the flip side, GW does have a rather significant expense coming up in...48 days now. That expense is apparently still looming, and would probably be more than the sale of 800 Death from the Skies books could cover.

I would like to say how much we as the gamers appreciate what you retailers do for us despite GW. Don't give up

niceguyteddy wrote:
Thanks GeeDub for assisting me in selling many flyer models

It's nice that you were able to make some money on these flier sales, niceguyteddy. You didn't have any players ask you to buy the book, though? Wouldn't it have been nice to be able to sell them the book, as well as the kits? You were able to capitalize on the situation, it seems, but was the unavailability of the book a boon or a hindrance to you?

Well, disposing with a more hopeful attitiude I will put on my "evil hat".

With a more negative viewpoint if I was a greedy grasping company man I would do the following:

1) Create a culture of "find the money" and remove any overhead that I possibly can (packing slips not being sent? really??). Modify internal social culture to a cult, investigate indoctrination methods.

2) Centralized WD in one handy magazine, do lots of photos: editors and writers cost more. Press rules/codex writers into service where possible. It must be the showcase for advertising.

3) Write rules to make high profit margin models more desireable (or at the very least drive up demand "artificially").

4) Remove middle men where possible to maximize profits. (Still sell at retail cost to get full two tier profits). Independent retailers are a necessary evil until more direct to customer methods can be finalized.

5) Use the model of "postal outlets" for the GW bricks and mortar shops.

6) Set each department up in a separate "silo" if they compete against each other, watch and see which becomes stronger and investigate why, then apply winning strategy accross the board.

7) Keep good natured "figureheads" out front and do not let them see the overall "business strategy".

8) Find cheaper raw material sources.

9) Sell multiple model kits in one package at same cost as models bought individually (our customers cannot add).

10) Anything that requires any overhead to produce find a means to sell it, do not give it away: it costs the company.

11) Unfailingly defend the market brand. Find way to make legal department a means of revenue stream.

12) Copy marketing strategy as Apple: keep completely quiet on any up and coming product and admit no mistakes when it is released.

This is meant to be a bit funny but some reality I think as well. I really hope this is wrong but some of the evidence seems to suggest otherwise.

weeble1000 wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:

Unfortunately, the trend is just the opposite. All the people I knew at GW for the last 20 years are gone. I have no contact with the the accountants and HR people who run the company. In the few conversations I've had, the tone has been very condescending, and anything I said was dismissed as wrong, and they knew better.

Most of the benefits of being a GW 'Parnership" store are just gone.
Any money spent on promotions is gone. They see no need for tournaments or 'ardboyz, and pretty much sneer at the ideas. They claim over and over that they don't want to sell a 'tournament' game. Somehow needing usuable rules is blamed on tournament players.
They quit putting packing slips in my orders, to save money. No other supplier does this. It's insane.

Lots of little changes, all atrributed easliy to someone in charge, with no gaming background at all, making little cuts to save pennies, and shift business away from FLGS.

Talking its useless. All anyone at GW does is try to explain why what is happening works, or to convince you that their is no problem, and we should be happy.

"Dropping GW sales? Really Mike? Wow, we are doing great, so is everyone else. tsk tsk".

Somehow less support, zero information, and less GW product to sell aren't factors they think affect sales. Worst, this last move cost them the last of my trust. What it boils down to is that as a store, I still need to maximize my sales of their products. To do this I need run events, and support the hobby. To do that, I have to have some enthusiasm for the games, company, and models. This sort of breaks down when they treat retailers like crap. I still have a job to do. It's now a lot harder to do, and I get angry about that.

I would say that this is surprising to hear, but it really is not that surprising. It is hard to believe that GW would want to behave like this, but I have found that GW can behave inscrutably irrational.

Your experience does seem to further indicate that there is something seriously wrong with the health of Games Workshop. That someone at GW felt that the company needed to save the cost of including packing slips suggests to me that GW has become paranoid about costs to the point of irrationality. The company slashed costs aggressively under Wells, but if GW is down to saving the cost of packing slips it must not have been enough to keep profits steady for much longer.

Although on the flip side, GW does have a rather significant expense coming up in...48 days now. That expense is apparently still looming, and would probably be more than the sale of 800 Death from the Skies books could cover.

What expense would that be?

Mike, I don't know if you remember the conversation we had, that first Dakkacon a couple of years back, where I held fairly staunch negative views about GW and you sat me down and talked through just why you loved GW as a retailer, when you talked to me about the years of support, the great relationship you had with the management and the great customer service you received as a business. You really did open my eyes and change my perception of how things were for you and for the North American business.

I was not long landed off the plane from the UK. I'd seen the GW method of operation over there, seen their aggressive attitude to indy stores, seen them withhold stock and switch orders without notification, watched as they used indy stores to build up business in an area and then move in next door, or in one case, persuade a bloke to move out of the town center to bigger premises and then open a GW in his old shop, killing his business...

I believe what you are experiencing now is the fallout from Kirby's tour of the US, I think you enjoyed many years of the GW US model, which evolved with a certain degree of autonomy and, from what you told me, was a great experience and mutually beneficial to the businesses concerned, but I think he's come to America, beheaded a huge swathe of the management here and forced the UK model into effect over here. Whether it will work or not for GW remains to be seen, but if I'm right, it will be a bad time for the American independent stores and their relationship with GW will move to an almost openly hostile one.

It worries me for the store owners in North America, I know you're a formidable businessman and you carry a number of other ranges and your comic business as well, if GW piss you off for long enough, you'll just up the anti on selling PP and other ranges and increase the events for them in the area, but for some businesses, the GW sales may signify a tipping point for their livelihoods.

I have some questions.
Has GW ever done this in the past? I mean completely cut the middle man out. If this works and they get away with it, whats to stop them from doing this again and again?
The flyer rule book is an absolute necessity right? So when they release a new rulebook for 40k or fantasy why would GW release those to venders?
Does the community have any way of effectively organizing a boycott or petition? And should we?
My personal op is this is grounds for boycott/petition.

GW has sold stuff direct only but my FLGS owner just put up with it. He won't do so regarding direct only with rules.

I don't know about MA but in Northern VA loosing GW in the local stores doesn't look like it will kill them like it would've about 10-15 years ago. Lower to zero GW sales might hurt but looking at the shelf space some LGS have for GW vs. others the GW sections have shrunk in each than I think they ever have been. There is a store down in Fredericksburg I haven't been too so they could be an outlier in this and rely on GW product more than others.

In other words, GW can go ahead and make stuff direct only and cut out the independent. It's GWs loss now more than the LGS. And it's a loss to those who still buy GW stuff. I am still one of those but rarely now that I'm almost done with completing my Eldar collection. Best thing Finecrap did was motivate me to finish my Eldar collection before the metals got rare. But that's another topic...

Note that from my observation american's typically do not buy from manufacturers directly at full cost. Most will simply go buy something else than do that. If GW thinks they can grow by going direct only that's dumber than opening their own stores to compete with LGSs.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

I was not long landed off the plane from the UK. I'd seen the GW method of operation over there, seen their aggressive attitude to indy stores, seen them withhold stock and switch orders without notification, watched as they used indy stores to build up business in an area and then move in next door, or in one case, persuade a bloke to move out of the town center to bigger premises and then open a GW in his old shop, killing his business...

I believe what you are experiencing now is the fallout from Kirby's tour of the US, I think you enjoyed many years of the GW US model, which evolved with a certain degree of autonomy and, from what you told me, was a great experience and mutually beneficial to the businesses concerned, but I think he's come to America, beheaded a huge swathe of the management here and forced the UK model into effect over here. Whether it will work or not for GW remains to be seen, but if I'm right, it will be a bad time for the American independent stores and their relationship with GW will move to an almost openly hostile one.

I don't think these actions are the result of Kirby's US stint. I first heard of those tactics back when I got into the hobby in the late 80's and Bryan Ansell was still in charge at that point. GW screwing over independent stores has always been GW's modus operandi. What I think we are seeing are the Wells, ex-CEO's cost cutting measuring coming to full fruition. All of what Mikhaila has described sounds like typical penny wise, pound foolish cost cutting I read about at companies and institutions. I'll bet you though, there is a bloated administrative/finance staff where firing the assistant to the assistant to the secretary of Kirby would save more money and eliminate a useless position.

Or just get rid of Jervis Johnson. After reading his latest article in WD, I serious believe he is the barrier to 40k/WHFB ever having a truly balanced rule set. His motto of "roll it off" is the biggest excuse for not trying to clean up and clarify rules at the company.

 redstripe wrote:

niceguyteddy wrote:
Thanks GeeDub for assisting me in selling many flyer models

It's nice that you were able to make some money on these flier sales, niceguyteddy. You didn't have any players ask you to buy the book, though? Wouldn't it have been nice to be able to sell them the book, as well as the kits? You were able to capitalize on the situation, it seems, but was the unavailability of the book a boon or a hindrance to you?

I thought this was sarcasm... I read it to say he didn't make any money selling flyers to the 50 people in his store since no one had the rules/book on hand.

 WarOne wrote:
Redirecting this to be less confrontational, does anyone know who controls what percentage of the company via shares? I know some of the insiders and former suits have lots of stock, but who exactly has the lion's share?

I bought about a hundred or so shares for ~$100 back in early 2000's. My shares have gone up more than GW's annual price hike/inflation/adjustments as I've more than doubled my money... I'm now at about ~ $250-ish. Otherwise, what you are looking can be found here: http://investor.games-workshop.com/shareholder-statistics/

I apologize for the horrendous formatting as I don't know how to drop a chart in here so it may look wonky in the post - check out the link if you want to see it all in a pretty format. If it works anything like it does in the US with a public company and their auditors, GW wouldn't be allowed to put out any information that can't be substantiated by their auditor on record and PWC is neck and neck with being the top audit firm in the world with D&T. P-Dub would drop G-Dub if it tarnished their image in any way.

Gamesworkshop, PLC
The shareholders who hold over 3% of the total ordinary share capital of Games Workshop Group PLC.
A: 02/21/2013

Shareholder Number of shares Percentage
The Nomad Investment Partnership LP 5,154,141 16.2
Investec Asset Management Limited 3,087,765 9.7
Ruffer LLP 2,248,000 7.1
Tom Kirby 2,131,394 6.7
Phoenix Asset Management Partners Limited 1,865,218 5.9
FIL Limited 1,753,900 5.5

The sad part is, GW probably considers the release of this new book to be a resounding success: after all, they're sold out!

I won't be surprised if future releases will also screw over the retailers. All GW has to do is have a new release in limited numbers so that a store only gets one or two of it at most, and then after that initial "wide release", it then becomes direct only.

boyd wrote:

 WarOne wrote:
Redirecting this to be less confrontational, does anyone know who controls what percentage of the company via shares? I know some of the insiders and former suits have lots of stock, but who exactly has the lion's share?

I bought about a hundred or so shares for ~$100 back in early 2000's. My shares have gone up more than GW's annual price hike/inflation/adjustments as I've more than doubled my money... I'm now at about ~ $250-ish. Otherwise, what you are looking can be found here: http://investor.games-workshop.com/shareholder-statistics/

If you bought in early 2000s you bought at a low. It doesn't really indicate all that much, because the price has been pretty cyclical, high in late 90s, low in early 00s, high in mid 00s, low in late 00s, crawling back up again since 2010.

Share price is a few steps removed from actually relating product price to success.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GW chart for the past 20 years:

http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=GAW.L+Interactive#symbol=gaw.l;range=my;compare=;indicator=volume;charttype=area;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=undefined;

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

boyd wrote:

 WarOne wrote:
Redirecting this to be less confrontational, does anyone know who controls what percentage of the company via shares? I know some of the insiders and former suits have lots of stock, but who exactly has the lion's share?

I bought about a hundred or so shares for ~$100 back in early 2000's. My shares have gone up more than GW's annual price hike/inflation/adjustments as I've more than doubled my money... I'm now at about ~ $250-ish. Otherwise, what you are looking can be found here: http://investor.games-workshop.com/shareholder-statistics/

If you bought in early 2000s you bought at a low. It doesn't really indicate all that much, because the price has been pretty cyclical, high in late 90s, low in early 00s, high in mid 00s, low in late 00s, crawling back up again since 2010.

Share price is a few steps removed from actually relating product price to success.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GW chart for the past 20 years:

http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=GAW.L+Interactive#symbol=gaw.l;range=my;compare=;indicator=volume;charttype=area;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=undefined;

I recently dumped my shares because I believe that GW is heading for a major correction. Wells leaving and the Hobbit disappointment are going to leave a mark. That and GW seems to peak every 5 years. Still, 35% return in 18 months wasn't a bad run

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Mike, I don't know if you remember the conversation we had, that first Dakkacon a couple of years back, where I held fairly staunch negative views about GW and you sat me down and talked through just why you loved GW as a retailer, when you talked to me about the years of support, the great relationship you had with the management and the great customer service you received as a business. You really did open my eyes and change my perception of how things were for you and for the North American business.

I was not long landed off the plane from the UK. I'd seen the GW method of operation over there, seen their aggressive attitude to indy stores, seen them withhold stock and switch orders without notification, watched as they used indy stores to build up business in an area and then move in next door, or in one case, persuade a bloke to move out of the town center to bigger premises and then open a GW in his old shop, killing his business...

I believe what you are experiencing now is the fallout from Kirby's tour of the US, I think you enjoyed many years of the GW US model, which evolved with a certain degree of autonomy and, from what you told me, was a great experience and mutually beneficial to the businesses concerned, but I think he's come to America, beheaded a huge swathe of the management here and forced the UK model into effect over here. Whether it will work or not for GW remains to be seen, but if I'm right, it will be a bad time for the American independent stores and their relationship with GW will move to an almost openly hostile one.

It worries me for the store owners in North America, I know you're a formidable businessman and you carry a number of other ranges and your comic business as well, if GW piss you off for long enough, you'll just up the anti on selling PP and other ranges and increase the events for them in the area, but for some businesses, the GW sales may signify a tipping point for their livelihoods.

I have to agree with Mean Green Stompa with his assessment. I'll say this once again. Wells was only taking orders from Kirby. He should not be the scapegoat for the current business model of the revenue streaming process that has been going on since 2010. Kirby is the man calling the shots. Independent retailers are eventually going to be less and less be out of the equation for GW's future ways of receiving their revenue.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

I have to agree with Mean Green Stompa with his assessment. I'll say this once again. Wells was only taking orders from Kirby. He should not be the scapegoat for the current business model of the revenue streaming process that has been going on since 2010. Kirby is the man calling the shots. Independent retailers are eventually going to be less and less be out of the equation for GW's future ways of receiving their revenue.

If Kirby is the only one calling the shots and dictating this mentality, Mikhaila would have never started to praise GW back in the day because GW would have never offered those benefits. Kirby has been in charge of GW since 1991. The change in GW's approach to stores in this country and cost cutting reflects the time Wells was CEO. He clearly had an influence on the running of GW and was not some rubber stamp that people think. He left his mark on the company and changed the mentality of company. Will Kirby change things back though? I don't think so.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Mike, I don't know if you remember the conversation we had, that first Dakkacon a couple of years back, where I held fairly staunch negative views about GW and you sat me down and talked through just why you loved GW as a retailer, when you talked to me about the years of support, the great relationship you had with the management and the great customer service you received as a business. You really did open my eyes and change my perception of how things were for you and for the North American business.

I was not long landed off the plane from the UK. I'd seen the GW method of operation over there, seen their aggressive attitude to indy stores, seen them withhold stock and switch orders without notification, watched as they used indy stores to build up business in an area and then move in next door, or in one case, persuade a bloke to move out of the town center to bigger premises and then open a GW in his old shop, killing his business...

I believe what you are experiencing now is the fallout from Kirby's tour of the US, I think you enjoyed many years of the GW US model, which evolved with a certain degree of autonomy and, from what you told me, was a great experience and mutually beneficial to the businesses concerned, but I think he's come to America, beheaded a huge swathe of the management here and forced the UK model into effect over here. Whether it will work or not for GW remains to be seen, but if I'm right, it will be a bad time for the American independent stores and their relationship with GW will move to an almost openly hostile one.

It worries me for the store owners in North America, I know you're a formidable businessman and you carry a number of other ranges and your comic business as well, if GW piss you off for long enough, you'll just up the anti on selling PP and other ranges and increase the events for them in the area, but for some businesses, the GW sales may signify a tipping point for their livelihoods.

GW has this "big fish" mindset from being in the UK, but there's so much more area to cover and so many products that it'll be impossible for them to force out the independents in the US.

I think if GW continues to push the issue, the better stores (The ones that don't feel like bars for hardcore drunks.) will probably just drop their orders to a bare minimum and switch to a more successful non-wargaming product.

The simple fact of the matter is that there's always a new fad for preteens. If GW enacts policies to try and force the little guy out of business, it just means the little guy starts carrying more of Magic:The Gathering; or Yugioh; or Cardfight:Vanguard; or whatever becomes the next Heroclix.

silent25 wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

I have to agree with Mean Green Stompa with his assessment. I'll say this once again. Wells was only taking orders from Kirby. He should not be the scapegoat for the current business model of the revenue streaming process that has been going on since 2010. Kirby is the man calling the shots. Independent retailers are eventually going to be less and less be out of the equation for GW's future ways of receiving their revenue.

If Kirby is the only one calling the shots and dictating this mentality, Mikhaila would have never started to praise GW back in the day because GW would have never offered those benefits. Kirby has been in charge of GW since 1991. The change in GW's approach to stores in this country and cost cutting reflects the time Wells was CEO. He clearly had an influence on the running of GW and was not some rubber stamp that people think. He left his mark on the company and changed the mentality of company. Will Kirby change things back though? I don't think so.

I spoke to Mikhaila about this in January 2010, that's when he was entirely enthused about GW and explained how much GW USA did for him and why he loved their reliability and support for the indy store.

What else happened in 2010?

Kirby comes to America. He starts dealing out the beheadings, senior management in North America is clear out. GW North America was given a great deal of autonomy up until that time. It's mindset and support system was very different to the UK model's evolution. Kirby came over to bring it to heel.

Listen to what Mikhaila has said, there is noone left in the company that he's known for the 20 years he's been dealing with it, It's been 'purged' or whatever 'imperium' speak the weirdos in GW's management training would say (perhaps 'management exterminatus'...).

No more tourney support, no more mutual relationship with retailers, no more trust or reliability. This man has been trading directly with GW for 20 years of reliable business and now they are lying to him, removing the support he's enjoyed for that time and moving from a mutually beneficial relationship to a hostile and 'patronizing' one. I've said it before, if Mike has lost faith in GW, we should all be worried about the state of the company, because that is the ravens leaving the tower.

Wells was a plate spinner, he kept things ticking over to Kirby's instruction at home whilst Kirby was in NA, reshaping it to maximize profit. For one reason, his personal profit and retirement. A Chairman or CEO should be expected to be a shareholder, but I am not convinced of the wisdom of the head of the company being among the top five shareholders, it leads to a greatly skewed performance geared to share payout over long term health for the company, especially when that board leader is so close to retirement.

Can one of our British friends tell me if there is a difference between GBP and GBp (the p being what I'm interested in).

 Alfndrate wrote:
Can one of our British friends tell me if there is a difference between GBP and GBp (the p being what I'm interested in).

Pounds and pence usually.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Can one of our British friends tell me if there is a difference between GBP and GBp (the p being what I'm interested in).

Pounds and pence usually.

My original post was about boyd saying he bought a hundred shares for about a hundred dollars... because if the London Stock Exchange goes off of Pounds, then a single share of GW is worth 989 USD and I was gonna call complete and utter bs, but if this site is correct: http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?ticker=GAW:LN and it says GBp, then that means a share is only worth about 10 dollars...

might be worth it to pick up some...

Didn't mean for this to go OT, just wanted some clarification, thanks MGS

Now back to the debates!

Might be time to create a 40k investment group, get everyone to pick up a few shares and start steering GW back on course... LOL

Power of the people and all... ;-)

For the price of 1 Tactical Squad, you too can own 4 shares of Games Workshop!

 Alfndrate wrote:
For the price of 1 Tactical Squad, you too can own 4 shares of Games Workshop!

655.20 USD a share? I might be a finance noob but isn't GAW.L their stock ID?

Edit: Disregaurd the info I pulled aparently is displayed in GBp

We should start a kickstarter to buy up a major share of GW stock.

 Goat wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
For the price of 1 Tactical Squad, you too can own 4 shares of Games Workshop!

655.20 USD a share? I might be a finance noob but isn't GAW.L their stock ID?

Edit: Disregaurd the info I pulled aparently is displayed in GBp

This is why I asked a few posts ago if there was a difference between GBP and GBp because I wanted to make sure that a share of GAW.L was $9.89 USD and not 989 USD

rpricew wrote:
Might be time to create a 40k investment group, get everyone to pick up a few shares and start steering GW back on course... LOL

Power of the people and all... ;-)

I don't trust any of you to run said investment group.

 kronk wrote:

rpricew wrote:
Might be time to create a 40k investment group, get everyone to pick up a few shares and start steering GW back on course... LOL

Power of the people and all... ;-)

I don't trust any of you to run said investment group.

I trust you Kronk >_>

 SickSix wrote:
We should start a kickstarter to buy up a major share of GW stock.

Someone is already doing it. ~14% of GW stock has recently been purchased in two different bunches since Wells left, maybe the numbers are a bit different, but I am not going to dig too deeply into the numbers. A, the community can't compete with that amount of cash investment, and B, some entity is likely already angling in to take over GW. Things are probably going to change pretty drastically pretty soon.

So, who wants to buy GW? Disney? Hasbro? Milton Bradley?

 SickSix wrote:
So, who wants to buy GW? Disney? Hasbro? Milton Bradley?

My money would be on Hasbro, if I were a betting man.

Free GW shares with every Thunderhawk and Manta purchase!

weeble1000 wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
So, who wants to buy GW? Disney? Hasbro? Milton Bradley?

My money would be on Hasbro, if I were a betting man.

Same, but at the same time I don't see them picking up GW... simply because wargames are still too niche... But that IP is worth a hell of a lot, especially if someone actively promotes it and gets it into the public... I mean I know they own WoTC, but at the same time, that company had so many different games under their name that it was probably enticing to Hasbro beyond DnD and Magic, though I apparently don't remember this and I'll have to check my old cards, but apparently Wizards owned the Pokemon TCG, which probably helped them even more...

Who knows

Though considering the price that Hasbro paid for Wizards, they could sneeze roughly a 3rd of that at Games Workshop at buy them up... The problem would be to get enough voting members on the board to approve such a sale.

According to this site: http://companycheck.co.uk/company/01467092
Games workshop is worth roughly 121,015,500 USD (79,815,000 GBP)

The Warhammer IP is way too big to just die but other than Hasbro I can't really think of anyone who would be overly interested in it.

Yeah, the problem becomes, who is large enough to pay for GW and everything they own... You're basically down to just Hasbro, Mattel, and Disney... While all three of those companies have the revenue and cash to buy GW, you then have to think... Who would benefit the most, and who would most likely be the company to pick it up... Disney owns Marvel, but I think that's mostly for the movie revenue, and Mattel could do it, but I don't think they're known for that type of property... Though they could probably do it as a direct competitor with Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast...


BUT we're getting off topic, I'm sorry mods

 Pacific wrote:

 Xzerios wrote:
Revelation just hit me...

GW runs themselves much like the Emporium of Mankind... shunning technology and all.

There was a pretty good article I read on this that says the same thing... http://thefrontlinegamer.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/is-imperium-metaphor-for-games-workshop.html

It's just a company, folks, and hardly the most evil one out there. Although Kirby is a bit of a corpse-god at this point.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Kirby made a statement in the last financial report about wanting to open 800 more shops in the US because for some reason they seem to think the UK business model will work there. They want all FLGS in the US that are selling GW products to be GW stores as that way they can control every every step of the process from manufacturing the models to selling them direct to you, and therefore that entire $50 note you hand them for a model that costs $3 to produce, pack and ship is going strait in their pocket and they don't have to share with other stores. [/rant]

I think he's blowing some smoke in that case, though. If they really wanted 800 more stores of their own in the country, they'd have more than one store in Philadelphia (nation's 5th largest city) and its wealthy suburban counties.

 Pacific wrote:
I'm not sure if it was in this thread, or again another one like, but someone was asking whether Privateer Press will go the same way as GW. In a sense perhaps they are already (and you could make an argument that such is the fate of all companies once they reach a certain size), but I think while that company is still privately owned, and doesn't have to concentrate solely on shareholder dividends, then there will still ultimately be a gulf between those companies in terms of company policy and therefore customer perception.

At some point, PP will need to go public if they intend to keep growing. It all depends on the vision and greed of the owner(s).

I'd also be careful about rooting for GW to be acquired.

Back in 2nd edition, or thereabouts, the store that sold me the game in the first place stopped stocking GW stuff. Supposedly it was because they were enraged at their treatment by Games Workshop, though I don't remember the precise trigger - maybe it was them opening the retail stores? Not sure if that was it as there certainly wasn't one near that particular shop.

Kirby made a statement in the last financial report about wanting to open 800 more shops in the US

I would love to see that, but considering the rate at which they close and open shops it will be the 41st millennium before that happens. They constantly close shops as soon as the rent goes up a little or the sales go down a little, even very successful shops that have had a single bad year have been closed sometimes. I've seen them close shops that were mostly very successful surprisingly quickly after one bad season or one annoying rent increase.

I'm already concerned about possibly losing our Battle Bunker in Bowie, MD (https://www.facebook.com/GWBowie). Since they no longer can sell Forge World they've lost thousands of dollars in monthly income yet GW still apparently expects them to make the same sales numbers they did when they were selling Forge World a year ago. It's daft.

Not to mention that the Bowie GW lost a large portion of its playerbase to an independant retailer who opened up shop in their old location in Glen Burnie.

 gorgon wrote:
At some point, PP will need to go public if they intend to keep growing. It all depends on the vision and greed of the owner(s).

I don't know anything about their business practices, but why do you feel that way? It seems many companies who go public swell in the short term and die in the long term. Valve has remained private, though I admit they're a bit of an oddball with Steam and all.

http://www.gamepolitics.com/2010/09/03/valve-software%E2%80%99s-philosophy-becoming-publicly-traded-company#.USzzwlchJa8

All [companies that float] end up getting their customers changed," Valve's Erik Johnson told the latest issue of PC Gamer.

"Any bad decision I ever see out there is because somebody created this different customer that was whoever funds them, and not the consumer of the product."

"You end up with a totally different set of decisions, and the person who's trying to design the experience is like' Okay, I guess we'll put Christopher Walken in our game."

 BrassScorpion wrote:

Kirby made a statement in the last financial report about wanting to open 800 more shops in the US

I would love to see that, but considering the rate at which they close and open shops it will be the 41st millennium before that happens. They constantly close shops as soon as the rent goes up a little or the sales go down a little, even very successful shops that have had a single bad year have been closed sometimes. I've seen them close shops that were mostly very successful surprisingly quickly after one bad season or one annoying rent increase.

I'm already concerned about possibly losing our Battle Bunker in Bowie, MD (https://www.facebook.com/GWBowie). Since they no longer can sell Forge World they've lost thousands of dollars in monthly income yet GW still apparently expects them to make the same sales numbers they did when they were selling Forge World a year ago. It's daft.

All the bunkers are going to be closed, LA and Seattle already shut down and replaced with one man demo stores. Im sure they will kill off the rest in short order. What I want to know is what they intend to do with all the tables and glass cabinets, those suckers are a $1000 a piece. I know the Toronto bunker has the 20+ cabinets from the old HQ in the basement, it would be a terrible shame for them to get Dreadfleeted.

Whilst the core GW studio might be fumbling a little bit (seriously it's one book that will be obsolete within a year) I can't see the GW ship sinking for at least 5 years and probably not even then. You see as much as GW might look awkward and clumsy Black Library are a major success with the Horus Heresy and Forgeworld are now ding a good trade in the corresponding figures and supplements. Those two alone could support GW but the thing we don't know is how big the hobby is outside of the minority who post on internet forums. I mean even in this thread there are what 200 unique posters max? That's a tiny proportion of the player base.

As for the shops. Most people I hear from hardly ever go into a GW store and buy stuff everyone buys online. High street shopping is going through a big upheaval. Even here in the UK, the supposed powerhouse of GW retail I think GW will close half of it's stores in the next five years. I just don't see the need for these tiny shops. They need to consolidate and have one bigger store in each county with more better trained staff. As for the US I wouldn't be surprised if GW went to one store per state or just went mail order and FLGS only.

Bloodwin wrote:
Whilst the core GW studio might be fumbling a little bit (seriously it's one book that will be obsolete within a year) I can't see the GW ship sinking for at least 5 years and probably not even then. You see as much as GW might look awkward and clumsy Black Library are a major success with the Horus Heresy and Forgeworld are now ding a good trade in the corresponding figures and supplements. Those two alone could support GW but the thing we don't know is how big the hobby is outside of the minority who post on internet forums. I mean even in this thread there are what 200 unique posters max? That's a tiny proportion of the player base.

As for the shops. Most people I hear from hardly ever go into a GW store and buy stuff everyone buys online. High street shopping is going through a big upheaval. Even here in the UK, the supposed powerhouse of GW retail I think GW will close half of it's stores in the next five years. I just don't see the need for these tiny shops. They need to consolidate and have one bigger store in each county with more better trained staff. As for the US I wouldn't be surprised if GW went to one store per state or just went mail order and FLGS only.

I absolutely cannot see the point of having one store in every state. What would be the point unless they were all like Warhammer World or something?

Bloodwin wrote:
WhilAs for the US I wouldn't be surprised if GW went to one store per state or just went mail order and FLGS only.

I can see this, too. The thing is that GW has discovered that they (as a company) get more money via their stores and direct sales than they do through FLGS. I don't see them moving to embrace FLGS again until their bottom line is impacted in a way they can't recover from through a different means.

I'm in Atlanta, GA and there is only one GW store in 100 miles of me. It's one of the small one man shops that's focused on getting people started in the hobby.

Most everyone else plays at the FLGS around the city, since they are the only ones who have space to play. Most of them support the store that they play at as well.

I don't understand why GW can't recognize the loyalty that providing a place to play endears. Sure, some folks go online and buy things, but most of the Pre-Orders, New Releases and spontaneous buys are done on the spot, in the store when the games are finished.

 SickSix wrote:
So, who wants to buy GW? Disney? Hasbro? Milton Bradley?

Most likely just some investment group.

 Breotan wrote:

Bloodwin wrote:
WhilAs for the US I wouldn't be surprised if GW went to one store per state or just went mail order and FLGS only.

I can see this, too. The thing is that GW has discovered that they (as a company) get more money via their stores and direct sales than they do through FLGS. I don't see them moving to embrace FLGS again until their bottom line is impacted in a way they can't recover from through a different means.

Mistreating and imposing rules on the FLGSs is only going to spread discontent if anything, alot of GW is word of mouth, piss enough people off and suddenly they'll have no one holding them up.

 gorgon wrote:
At some point, PP will need to go public if they intend to keep growing. It all depends on the vision and greed of the owner(s).

Going public isn't the only way to grow. Quicker, easier... But Lego is pretty darn big, and still privately owned.

 insaniak wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
At some point, PP will need to go public if they intend to keep growing. It all depends on the vision and greed of the owner(s).

Going public isn't the only way to grow. Quicker, easier...

Does it also give you access to powers deemed unnatural by the Jedi?

Yes, but once you start down that path, forever will it dominate your destiny...


It's actually an even better comparison than I expected...

Bloodwin wrote:
As for the US I wouldn't be surprised if GW went to one store per state or just went mail order and FLGS only.

That would be fine by me. Leaves enough space for the LGS to thrive.

There already is enough space for the LGS to thrive. That's part of GWs problem trying to figure out the US market. The LGSs that are "good" don't rely on GW and therefore thrive with or without them. GW store down the street or right next door? So what?* Would the LGSs like to have good sales from GW products? I suspect so. Do they need GW to thrive? No.

GW going mail order and FLGS in the USA makes sense. Therefore they will not do it.

GW opening a store in every state and making it hard for FLGS to purchase their product doesn't make sense. Therefore...

Note that it's been reported by former staff over on Warseer that Trade Sales is GWs most profitable sales channel.

*Reference: Northern VA and Maryland. 20+ years GW has had stores, off and on in some cases, yet some FLGSs are still around and some of those FLGSs are doing quite well it seems.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
The sad part is, GW probably considers the release of this new book to be a resounding success: after all, they're sold out!

I won't be surprised if future releases will also screw over the retailers. All GW has to do is have a new release in limited numbers so that a store only gets one or two of it at most, and then after that initial "wide release", it then becomes direct only.

According to the store I make most of my purchases at, this is already happening. As a partnership store, he is only getting in the stuff during opening weekend, 2-3 copies (other than books) and can't get them back in after. Unless, of course, they're basic kits. The company IS trying to run out the regular FLGSs. Mikhaila is going through it, as is my store. I trust those two places/owners quite a bit.

so gw is controling what they sell and who gets to sell it?

Yeah. They are.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

silent25 wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

I have to agree with Mean Green Stompa with his assessment. I'll say this once again. Wells was only taking orders from Kirby. He should not be the scapegoat for the current business model of the revenue streaming process that has been going on since 2010. Kirby is the man calling the shots. Independent retailers are eventually going to be less and less be out of the equation for GW's future ways of receiving their revenue.

If Kirby is the only one calling the shots and dictating this mentality, Mikhaila would have never started to praise GW back in the day because GW would have never offered those benefits. Kirby has been in charge of GW since 1991. The change in GW's approach to stores in this country and cost cutting reflects the time Wells was CEO. He clearly had an influence on the running of GW and was not some rubber stamp that people think. He left his mark on the company and changed the mentality of company. Will Kirby change things back though? I don't think so.

I spoke to Mikhaila about this in January 2010, that's when he was entirely enthused about GW and explained how much GW USA did for him and why he loved their reliability and support for the indy store.

What else happened in 2010? -Snip-

Oh I agree with you. The networking over the years within the entertainment industry (as well as my expertise) gives me the information that fills the gaps and/or re-enforce, or change view points established on this site. I know what my data tells me and say what I can say when allowed. I also will DCM people who I find are people who can give a logical viewpoint about the hobby. Those are the people I listen too as well as people who can present a logical, well written thought on this site. We both agree that Kirby is calling the shots, gathering more shares of stock, (oh you know that he is probably not buying the shares as currently stated, probably part of his stock options/perks) so when he retires he can cash (some of it or all of it) out.

I deal with these types of (rich mind set) people within my commercial holdings. You have no idea on how much sanitizer I use on my hands after shaking theirs and or their subordinates.

I do not like the trend this is taking place on how they are producing product, the current store logistics, and alienating the LGFS partners like they are doing now.

robpace wrote:
My latest blog post details the tensions between independent retailers and Games Workshop, specifically in relation to the new Death from the Skies supplement.

Fwoosh!

Some of the new flyer rules must be for flamers, because that's the sound of the new Death from the Skies supplement (which is available as of today exclusively through the Games Workshop website) burning bridges at several independent retail stores.

Here's an open letter from Pat Fuge, CEO of the Gnome Games retail chain in Wisconsin:

"Dear Games Workshop. You have made it less than desirable to sell your games and allow our place space to be used for your exclusive sales to the customers we take care of. For that reason all content in your new Aerial Combat Book is banned for all of our events. The book will not be allowed in our stores and is considered contraband.

GW players if you want to trade in your armies for store credit for Warmachine we have an opportunity for you. Please email ihategw@gnomegames.com for details."

Gary Ray of Black Diamond Games posted a similar sentiment on his blog:

"Trade in your current edition Warhammer 40K or Warhammer Fantasy rulebook and you take 40% off a starter box or rulebook for Warmachine or Hordes. We've done this with role-playing before, notably D&D and Pathfinder, so we know there are likely a bunch of rulebooks gathering dust and the need for excuses to start a new game. Let this be your excuse."

Additionally, as of this posting several other independent retailers have pledged to ban the use of Death from the Skies in their stores. The supplement represents a tipping point in the strained relationship between independent retailers and Games Workshop, which released several exclusive products through their official website recently, cutting out independent retailers and driving consumers directly to Games Workshop for their hobby fix.

Aaah nerd rage at its finest.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:
... We both agree that Kirby is calling the shots, gathering more shares of stock, (oh you know that he is probably not buying the shares as currently stated, probably part of his stock options/perks) so when he retires he can cash (some of it or all of it) out.
...
I do not like the trend this is taking place on how they are producing product, the current store logistics, and alienating the LGFS partners like they are doing now.

For this plan to work, the stock has to actually be worth something when Kirby retires - not something that is likely if current Kirby-GW policies continue.

Alabaster.clown wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:
... We both agree that Kirby is calling the shots, gathering more shares of stock, (oh you know that he is probably not buying the shares as currently stated, probably part of his stock options/perks) so when he retires he can cash (some of it or all of it) out.
...
I do not like the trend this is taking place on how they are producing product, the current store logistics, and alienating the LGFS partners like they are doing now.

For this plan to work, the stock has to actually be worth something when Kirby retires - not something that is likely if current Kirby-GW policies continue.

Yep, but he most likely plans to retire just days before it crashes.

Gas prices keep going up maybe gas stations should stop selling gas!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
This is a serious question:

How many people who play at shops more than at home/clubs where you would not have access to a store copy actually own a copy of Apocalypse, Cities of Death, or Planetstrike?

Things like "Death from the Skies" strike me as more a "club purchase" at this point rather than an "individual purchase".

I own all if those

 pities2004 wrote:
Gas prices keep going up maybe gas stations should stop selling gas!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
This is a serious question:

How many people who play at shops more than at home/clubs where you would not have access to a store copy actually own a copy of Apocalypse, Cities of Death, or Planetstrike?

Things like "Death from the Skies" strike me as more a "club purchase" at this point rather than an "individual purchase".

I own all if those

Where did you get them from?

robpace wrote:
My latest blog post details the tensions between independent retailers and Games Workshop, specifically in relation to the new Death from the Skies supplement.

Fwoosh!

Some of the new flyer rules must be for flamers, because that's the sound of the new Death from the Skies supplement (which is available as of today exclusively through the Games Workshop website) burning bridges at several independent retail stores.

Here's an open letter from Pat Fuge, CEO of the Gnome Games retail chain in Wisconsin:

"Dear Games Workshop. You have made it less than desirable to sell your games and allow our place space to be used for your exclusive sales to the customers we take care of. For that reason all content in your new Aerial Combat Book is banned for all of our events. The book will not be allowed in our stores and is considered contraband.

GW players if you want to trade in your armies for store credit for Warmachine we have an opportunity for you. Please email ihategw@gnomegames.com for details."

Gary Ray of Black Diamond Games posted a similar sentiment on his blog:

"Trade in your current edition Warhammer 40K or Warhammer Fantasy rulebook and you take 40% off a starter box or rulebook for Warmachine or Hordes. We've done this with role-playing before, notably D&D and Pathfinder, so we know there are likely a bunch of rulebooks gathering dust and the need for excuses to start a new game. Let this be your excuse."

Additionally, as of this posting several other independent retailers have pledged to ban the use of Death from the Skies in their stores. The supplement represents a tipping point in the strained relationship between independent retailers and Games Workshop, which released several exclusive products through their official website recently, cutting out independent retailers and driving consumers directly to Games Workshop for their hobby fix.

Guru: Hush Nail. I'm speaking for you.

Please don't attach non wargaming images to Dakka. You need to use off site hosting if you wish to display any such images.

I haven't read all 30+ pages. But it seems to me that Retailers are missing the mark. If it was my store I would be upset about the direct only sales of this supplement. However... there IS a way to not punish the customer and still "stick" it to GW.

So, if it were my store, I would purchase a store copy of the book and make it available to my customers for free. Customers get to use their flyer models, and should be all around happy. GW loses out on sales to every customer in that store. Seems pretty win/win to me.

I would continue to do so for all direct only rules books.

 draugadan wrote:
I haven't read all 30+ pages. But it seems to me that Retailers are missing the mark. If it was my store I would be upset about the direct only sales of this supplement. However... there IS a way to not punish the customer and still "stick" it to GW.

So, if it were my store, I would purchase a store copy of the book and make it available to my customers for free. Customers get to use their flyer models, and should be all around happy. GW loses out on sales to every customer in that store. Seems pretty win/win to me.

I would continue to do so for all direct only rules books.

I think the problem with that is that people aren't getting annoyed about this particular book, but rather what it represents.
FLGS in the US have had a really good relationship with GW for years, but now it is clear that GW want to force the UK store structure on the US market. They don't want FLGS selling you models, they want you to be buying from GW stores only. having a store copy is all well and good for this release but what about when is becomes codexs?

If that is the case GW are just plain stupid, with them booting out vets and stopping games at their stores why the hell would I go there over an FLGS or an internet discounter?

Pay where you play.

 Ravenous D wrote:
If that is the case GW are just plain stupid, with them booting out vets and stopping games at their stores why the hell would I go there over an FLGS or an internet discounter?

Pay where you play.

GW kicking out vets? The hell you talking about

 insaniak wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
At some point, PP will need to go public if they intend to keep growing. It all depends on the vision and greed of the owner(s).

Going public isn't the only way to grow. Quicker, easier... But Lego is pretty darn big, and still privately owned.

Lego is also a bit of an anomaly. No one could have predicted that building blocks would become so popular. PP is operating in an established and developed market that is at least three decades old ASFAIK.

 Amaya wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
At some point, PP will need to go public if they intend to keep growing. It all depends on the vision and greed of the owner(s).

Going public isn't the only way to grow. Quicker, easier... But Lego is pretty darn big, and still privately owned.

Lego is also a bit of an anomaly. No one could have predicted that building blocks would become so popular. PP is operating in an established and developed market that is at least three decades old ASFAIK.

Lego is operating in a market it created in the 1940's.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
If you've already bought a codex and the company releases a new mini, I personally think that's great. If you then also buy that new mini, the very least they could do is give you the bloody rules for it, not stick them in another book and charge you as much for the rules as the mini costs.

It's highway bloody robbery.

It's a further act of grabbing parasitical lowlife to then limit who sells those rules so that only the parent company, at full price, can sell them, but then also take away gaming in the parent stores so that Independent store owners who DO provide the service of gaming tables are expected to enjoy the sight of you using products they can't sell on their tables.

These stores banning the use of the expansion are as entitled to ban it's use as GW is to ban the use of proxy models. Their store, their rules.

Then they can enjoy the fact that their rules have cost them my money.

This is no different than that truly petty indie store owner over on Warseer who refuses to let people use Forgeworld units or rules in his store because they didn't buy them from him; it's their choice to do so, obviously, nobody has said anything different, but choices have consequences, and walking into a store for a game and being told "You can't use that in here, because GW wouldn't let me sell it to you" is about 10,000% more likely to drive my custom elsewhere than "Check out this cool new model I have for sale, you'll have to order the rules direct from GW though sorry for the inconvenience". The local indie store is already a significantly lower-value proposition because of their inflated prices compared to online retailers, and people are willing to pay that premium because they want the place where they go to play games to remain available; but if they can no longer play the games they want to play there, why would they continue to support the store?

Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I've never in my 28 years of wargaming every encountered a gaming store that forbade the use of forgeworld models, other than Games Workshop themselves...

 pities2004 wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
If that is the case GW are just plain stupid, with them booting out vets and stopping games at their stores why the hell would I go there over an FLGS or an internet discounter?

Pay where you play.

GW kicking out vets? The hell you talking about

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but to give you an example:

the only official GW store in the whole of Poland (40 million people) located in Warsaw (2 million people) only allows 40k gaming from 1600 to 1900 on Thursdays.
FB is allowed in similar hours on Wednesday. Tuesday is LOTR.

You cannot go there and get a game otherwise.

 Alkasyn wrote:

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but to give you an example:

the only official GW store in the whole of Poland (40 million people) located in Warsaw (2 million people) only allows 40k gaming from 1600 to 1900 on Thursdays.
FB is allowed in similar hours on Wednesday. Tuesday is LOTR.

You cannot go there and get a game otherwise.

Wow. It's almost like they've perfected the formula on running a terrible game shop. No other days other than those three days?
And only a 3 hour window to play? I'll admit I'm a somewhat slow player, and that'd be really pushing it for me to try and get anything more than 1.5K 1vs1 game in with that time frame.

 Alkasyn wrote:

 pities2004 wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
If that is the case GW are just plain stupid, with them booting out vets and stopping games at their stores why the hell would I go there over an FLGS or an internet discounter?

Pay where you play.

GW kicking out vets? The hell you talking about

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but to give you an example:

the only official GW store in the whole of Poland (40 million people) located in Warsaw (2 million people) only allows 40k gaming from 1600 to 1900 on Thursdays.
FB is allowed in similar hours on Wednesday. Tuesday is LOTR.

You cannot go there and get a game otherwise.

Wow, that's so incredibly stupid. The local GWs near me you can rock up with an army almost any time and play a game as long as you leave a table free for intro games. There are dedicated vets days, but really you can show up whenever as long as you have an opponent to play against. They'll even let you play with the store armies.

This should be business 101, have people in your store having fun with your products and they'll be more inclined to buy more of your products.

I know half the reason I still buy GW paints and occasionally even buy a full price box set (which is saying a lot in Australia!) is because I go to my local GW to paint things and chat with the guys and they let me use the store paints/sprays/brushes while I'm there. I wouldn't buy anything from them if they didn't.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Alkasyn wrote:

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but to give you an example:

the only official GW store in the whole of Poland (40 million people) located in Warsaw (2 million people) only allows 40k gaming from 1600 to 1900 on Thursdays.
FB is allowed in similar hours on Wednesday. Tuesday is LOTR.

You cannot go there and get a game otherwise.

Wow. It's almost like they've perfected the formula on running a terrible game shop. No other days other than those three days?
And only a 3 hour window to play? I'll admit I'm a somewhat slow player, and that'd be really pushing it for me to try and get anything more than 1.5K 1vs1 game in with that time frame.

No no sir, I believe those are the times and kits you can buy. After all GW is a model company, not a place to play.

And for the record I buy where I play and since I can't even buy it in a GW (ordering to deliver there doesn't count) I will be going back to M:TG. This gives GW time to try to play properly and me time to assemble/paint my models.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
If you've already bought a codex and the company releases a new mini, I personally think that's great. If you then also buy that new mini, the very least they could do is give you the bloody rules for it, not stick them in another book and charge you as much for the rules as the mini costs.

It's highway bloody robbery.

It's a further act of grabbing parasitical lowlife to then limit who sells those rules so that only the parent company, at full price, can sell them, but then also take away gaming in the parent stores so that Independent store owners who DO provide the service of gaming tables are expected to enjoy the sight of you using products they can't sell on their tables.

These stores banning the use of the expansion are as entitled to ban it's use as GW is to ban the use of proxy models. Their store, their rules.

Actually today something fun happened, a kid was trying to deepstrike his Vendettas and was told he couldnt anymore because of the new update, the response was "Why the would I buy a $40 book to nerf my models?"

On a side note, if you want to save money just take a picture of the page with your phone from the book, save money, bam, I did that with IA 10 for Ashmantle, like hell Im spending $90 for one models rules. I plan on doing the same with DftS. $40 for 6 pages? HA, no.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mrwhoop wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Alkasyn wrote:

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but to give you an example:

the only official GW store in the whole of Poland (40 million people) located in Warsaw (2 million people) only allows 40k gaming from 1600 to 1900 on Thursdays.
FB is allowed in similar hours on Wednesday. Tuesday is LOTR.

You cannot go there and get a game otherwise.

Wow. It's almost like they've perfected the formula on running a terrible game shop. No other days other than those three days?
And only a 3 hour window to play? I'll admit I'm a somewhat slow player, and that'd be really pushing it for me to try and get anything more than 1.5K 1vs1 game in with that time frame.

No no sir, I believe those are the times and kits you can buy. After all GW is a model company, not a place to play.

And for the record I buy where I play and since I can't even buy it in a GW (ordering to deliver there doesn't count) I will be going back to M:TG. This gives GW time to try to play properly and me time to assemble/paint my models.

Yeah but GW WAS a place that welcomed play and built communities, tell them to bugger off and play in a basement is the least intelligent thing to do for repeat business.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
If you've already bought a codex and the company releases a new mini, I personally think that's great. If you then also buy that new mini, the very least they could do is give you the bloody rules for it, not stick them in another book and charge you as much for the rules as the mini costs.

It's highway bloody robbery.

It's a further act of grabbing parasitical lowlife to then limit who sells those rules so that only the parent company, at full price, can sell them, but then also take away gaming in the parent stores so that Independent store owners who DO provide the service of gaming tables are expected to enjoy the sight of you using products they can't sell on their tables.

These stores banning the use of the expansion are as entitled to ban it's use as GW is to ban the use of proxy models. Their store, their rules.

Actually today something fun happened, a kid was trying to deepstrike his Vendettas and was told he couldnt anymore because of the new update, the response was "Why the would I buy a $40 book to nerf my models?"

Not uncommon. In my FLGS, I was debating the virtues of Tyranid Primes with someone, and they said 'at least they can deep strike with a squad'. I pointed out the FAQ which said you can't, and they were truly shocked there was a FAQ. Long time gamers, unaware GW FAQ'd their stuff.

Given that they hide the FAQs away in their article section and never actually notify anyone when they are updated, that's really not that surprising.

It's almost as if they're afraid to talk to their customers if it isn't in the form of a "What's On Sale Today" blog entry.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 draugadan wrote:
I haven't read all 30+ pages. But it seems to me that Retailers are missing the mark. If it was my store I would be upset about the direct only sales of this supplement. However... there IS a way to not punish the customer and still "stick" it to GW.

So, if it were my store, I would purchase a store copy of the book and make it available to my customers for free. Customers get to use their flyer models, and should be all around happy. GW loses out on sales to every customer in that store. Seems pretty win/win to me.

I would continue to do so for all direct only rules books.

I think the problem with that is that people aren't getting annoyed about this particular book, but rather what it represents.
FLGS in the US have had a really good relationship with GW for years, but now it is clear that GW want to force the UK store structure on the US market. They don't want FLGS selling you models, they want you to be buying from GW stores only. having a store copy is all well and good for this release but what about when is becomes codexs?

Agree with this comment as I have been tracking their business model for quite a while know.

 insaniak wrote:
Given that they hide the FAQs away in their article section and never actually notify anyone when they are updated, that's really not that surprising.

That's true enough. Even my friend, who is plenty computer savvy, had no idea. When I pulled out the FAQ and showed him, he was pretty shocked (to be fair, the ruling went against him). I was more shocked he didn't know.

Looks like this is back in stock.
Still any ideas as to whether this book changed points values?

 insaniak wrote:
Given that they hide the FAQs away in their article section and never actually notify anyone when they are updated, that's really not that surprising.

GW can send me a news letter every month bragging about their new products, but can't even notify me of FAQ updates.
=/

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Looks like this is back in stock.
Still any ideas as to whether this book changed points values?

Storm talon changed, don't ask me how but it did and I think it is the only one that did.

Has anyone else heard this going to normal retail stock? I didn't see I mentioned in the last couple pages but the guys who does the ordering of GW stuff at the flgs said the GW sales rep said it was going to be a standard stock item after they got the next printing in. Supposedly they simply didn't expect it to sell as well as it did and that's why it was direct only. ::shrug::

 Lockark wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Given that they hide the FAQs away in their article section and never actually notify anyone when they are updated, that's really not that surprising.

GW can send me a news letter every month bragging about their new products, but can't even notify me of FAQ updates.
=/

That would mean publicly admitting that something they did wasn't perfect...

 skyth wrote:

 Lockark wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Given that they hide the FAQs away in their article section and never actually notify anyone when they are updated, that's really not that surprising.

GW can send me a news letter every month bragging about their new products, but can't even notify me of FAQ updates.
=/

That would mean publicly admitting that something they did wasn't perfect...

Except they already do that on the FAQ page. Don't let that get in the way of your hyperbole though.

yeah,

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 skyth wrote:

 Lockark wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Given that they hide the FAQs away in their article section and never actually notify anyone when they are updated, that's really not that surprising.

GW can send me a news letter every month bragging about their new products, but can't even notify me of FAQ updates.
=/

That would mean publicly admitting that something they did wasn't perfect...

Except they already do that on the FAQ page. Don't let that get in the way of your hyperbole though.

So why do you think they don't alert users to new FAQs?

Panic...

Because they're a model company...

To sell the models you support it with rules, they can update it daily with nonsense no one reads but not an FAQ? Remember when they gave Dark Angels and Templar 3++ storm shields? Models flew off the shelf. That would be worth the slightest effort of informing people.

 Ravenous D wrote:
To sell the models you support it with rules, they can update it daily with nonsense no one reads but not an FAQ? Remember when they gave Dark Angels and Templar 3++ storm shields? Models flew off the shelf. That would be worth the slightest effort of informing people.

I am quite sure at this point GWs higher ups truly believe people play the game because they already have the models, not the other way around, and people will continue to buy models no matter what.


Going off on a tangent here but we were discussing GW trying to muscle out interdependent stores earlier, my FLGS is not getting any of the new daemons stuff until this Saturday, when I was in there last Saturday (release day) they didn't even have in any of the new white dwarfs and the move to shrink wrapping codexs/army books seems to hurt indy stores too since GW have open copies in their stores but I can now no longer flip through a book at my FLGS before buying it.

 mikhaila wrote:


"Dropping GW sales? Really Mike? Wow, we are doing great, so is everyone else. tsk tsk".

I just started re reading this thread and the above quote really got my attention. Looks like a lot more ostrich and a lot less management is happening at GW

Our flgs has gotten its White Dwarves a week late the last two months.

My game store didn't even get in the FineCast Heralds.

I think the original purpose of this thread has been served.