Some of the new flyer rules must be for flamers, because that's the sound of the new Death from the Skies supplement (which is available as of today exclusively through the Games Workshop website) burning bridges at several independent retail stores.
Here's an open letter from Pat Fuge, CEO of the Gnome Games retail chain in Wisconsin:
"Dear Games Workshop. You have made it less than desirable to sell your games and allow our place space to be used for your exclusive sales to the customers we take care of. For that reason all content in your new Aerial Combat Book is banned for all of our events. The book will not be allowed in our stores and is considered contraband.
GW players if you want to trade in your armies for store credit for Warmachine we have an opportunity for you. Please email ihategw@gnomegames.com for details."
Gary Ray of Black Diamond Games posted a similar sentiment on his blog:
"Trade in your current edition Warhammer 40K or Warhammer Fantasy rulebook and you take 40% off a starter box or rulebook for Warmachine or Hordes. We've done this with role-playing before, notably D&D and Pathfinder, so we know there are likely a bunch of rulebooks gathering dust and the need for excuses to start a new game. Let this be your excuse."
Additionally, as of this posting several other independent retailers have pledged to ban the use of Death from the Skies in their stores. The supplement represents a tipping point in the strained relationship between independent retailers and Games Workshop, which released several exclusive products through their official website recently, cutting out independent retailers and driving consumers directly to Games Workshop for their hobby fix.
Some of the new flyer rules must be for flamers, because that's the sound of the new Death from the Skies supplement (which is available as of today exclusively through the Games Workshop website) burning bridges at several independent retail stores.
Here's an open letter from Pat Fuge, CEO of the Gnome Games retail chain in Wisconsin:
"Dear Games Workshop. You have made it less than desirable to sell your games and allow our place space to be used for your exclusive sales to the customers we take care of. For that reason all content in your new Aerial Combat Book is banned for all of our events. The book will not be allowed in our stores and is considered contraband.
GW players if you want to trade in your armies for store credit for Warmachine we have an opportunity for you. Please email ihategw@gnomegames.com for details."
Gary Ray of Black Diamond Games posted a similar sentiment on his blog:
"Trade in your current edition Warhammer 40K or Warhammer Fantasy rulebook and you take 40% off a starter box or rulebook for Warmachine or Hordes. We've done this with role-playing before, notably D&D and Pathfinder, so we know there are likely a bunch of rulebooks gathering dust and the need for excuses to start a new game. Let this be your excuse."
Additionally, as of this posting several other independent retailers have pledged to ban the use of Death from the Skies in their stores. The supplement represents a tipping point in the strained relationship between independent retailers and Games Workshop, which released several exclusive products through their official website recently, cutting out independent retailers and driving consumers directly to Games Workshop for their hobby fix.
There ya go. I find this quite entertaining, really.
Necros wrote: I haven't been following any of the drama lately.. why are they banning in the first place?
From what I gather after timetowaste85 so graciously posted something that should have been in the OP (thankyou ) said book is not able to be purchased by independents and can olny be bought from the GW website and/or stores.
Necros wrote: I haven't been following any of the drama lately.. why are they banning in the first place?
From what I gather after timetowaste85 so graciously posted something that should have been in the OP (thankyou ) said book is not able to be purchased by independents and can olny be bought from the GW website and/or stores.
To be honest, if any store owner tells me not to play with official Games Workshop products at that store, I'm going to stop playing (and buying) at that store at all. This strategy might work in places where the store is "the only game in town," but I have many choices for stores to attend and if some of them decide not to support the game system I play, I'm out.
Kingsley wrote: To be honest, if any store owner tells me not to play with official Games Workshop products at that store, I'm going to stop playing (and buying) at that store at all. This strategy might work in places where the store is "the only game in town," but I have many choices for stores to attend and if some of them decide not to support the game system I play, I'm out.
Um, no.
Say said store wishes to run a tournament with the latest 40k rules. All the rules are a requirements for every player. Lets say we have 32 players. This store, no matter what has lost £640 as GW has decided to stick 2 fingers up at them and say they cannot purchase this to sell in their stores.
It's not a fringe item like Forgeworld (another item which independents cannot purchase wholesale IIRC). This is an essential update for the core game and if the customers wish to support their FLGS, GW is saying a big, fat NO!
Kingsley wrote: To be honest, if any store owner tells me not to play with official Games Workshop products at that store, I'm going to stop playing (and buying) at that store at all. This strategy might work in places where the store is "the only game in town," but I have many choices for stores to attend and if some of them decide not to support the game system I play, I'm out.
That's right, stick it to the little man!
In all honesty, I think the open letter is more of a statement than anything, and if some form of gaming tool / aide is banned from a store, doesn't that make them no less shady than a GW?
I take no offense to stores banning Death from the Skies in any events that they host. While I definitely respond poorly if, in casual play, a store owner was to come to me and tell me that my book was disallowed in their store (at which point, I would stop patronizing that store), they're well within their rights to ban its use during any event that they choose to run.
Definitely a dick move on GW's part... but I can't say that I think the store response and method of protest is a good one. What they are doing simply screws over customers, not GW. I can't see this ending well for them. GW were dicks to them, but being dicks to customers is only going to drive people away instead of rallying them against GW's draconian treatment of independent retailers.
If they really wanted to stick it to GW then they would drop their products (and doing so on a massive scale would hurt GW in areas like North America, where the low density of GW stores couldn't possibly pick up the slack). Telling customers they can't use their new book and that it is contraband while still carrying everything else GW sells just seems cowardly as a protest.
Fact of the matter is, at the end of the day there's no "direct only." At least it seems so in Europe. Because our FLGS is able to order "direct only" products from GW just fine, at the regular dealer discount. It does require keeping a larger stock than usual perhaps (terms of the agreement and whatnot), but it most certainly can be done.
Ronin_eX wrote: Definitely a dick move on GW's part... but I can't say that I think the store response and method of protest is a good one. What they are doing simply screws over customers, not GW. I can't see this ending well for them. GW were dicks to them, but being dicks to customers is only going to drive people away instead of rallying them against GW's draconian treatment of independent retailers.
If they really wanted to stick it to GW then they would drop their products (and doing so on a massive scale would hurt GW in areas like North America, where the low density of GW stores couldn't possibly pick up the slack). Telling customers they can't use their new book and that it is contraband while still carrying everything else GW sells just seems cowardly as a protest.
I can't see what they are hoping to accomplish.
I do forsee the FLGS' dumping GW eventually, or GW only carrying warhammer in their own stores
Kingsley wrote: To be honest, if any store owner tells me not to play with official Games Workshop products at that store, I'm going to stop playing (and buying) at that store at all. This strategy might work in places where the store is "the only game in town," but I have many choices for stores to attend and if some of them decide not to support the game system I play, I'm out.
Um, no.
Say said store wishes to run a tournament with the latest 40k rules. All the rules are a requirements for every player. Lets say we have 32 players. This store, no matter what has lost £640 as GW has decided to stick 2 fingers up at them and say they cannot purchase this to sell in their stores.
It's not a fringe item like Forgeworld (another item which independents cannot purchase wholesale IIRC). This is an essential update for the core game and if the customers wish to support their FLGS, GW is saying a big, fat NO!
Not every player needs this book. And keep in mind that in the past there were updates that everyone needed to buy (Trial Assault Rules, Trial Vehicle Rules), which had limited availability once the White Dwarf issues originally showcasing them went out of rotation (and before the appropriate Chapter Approved books came out).
TheMostSlyFox wrote:
Kingsley wrote: To be honest, if any store owner tells me not to play with official Games Workshop products at that store, I'm going to stop playing (and buying) at that store at all. This strategy might work in places where the store is "the only game in town," but I have many choices for stores to attend and if some of them decide not to support the game system I play, I'm out.
That's right, stick it to the little man!
In all honesty, I think the open letter is more of a statement than anything, and if some form of gaming tool / aide is banned from a store, doesn't that make them no less shady than a GW?
Let's be real. The reason I shop at stores is to show support for the place that I game. I am objectively losing money whenever I do this because of the ease of obtaining 20-30% discounts online, and potentially even greater discounts via eBay or the plethora of bitz sellers. However, I like showing support for the stores that support the local gaming community, so I purchase things there even when it loses me money so I can help keep the store in business. This is a two-way street, though. If the store stops supporting my gaming, I stop supporting the store.
tvih wrote: Fact of the matter is, at the end of the day there's no "direct only." At least it seems so in Europe. Because our FLGS is able to order "direct only" products from GW just fine, at the regular dealer discount. It does require keeping a larger stock than usual perhaps (terms of the agreement and whatnot), but it most certainly can be done.
In the US, Mikhalia here on dakka owns two stores I believe and has posted that "direct" only items come with a much smaller discount from GW to retailers resulting in less profit for the same work and with an uglier generic box for the minis.
I agree, I was going to buy a Stormraven. But now im not because my store banned it for me now apprently.
Maybe as a protest i will get all the people from my store to buy it, then bring it in. I dont get how this is a "Screw You" to GW, its a screw you to customers who would otherwise be willing to spend there money there.
Kingsley wrote: To be honest, if any store owner tells me not to play with official Games Workshop products at that store, I'm going to stop playing (and buying) at that store at all. This strategy might work in places where the store is "the only game in town," but I have many choices for stores to attend and if some of them decide not to support the game system I play, I'm out.
Um, no.
Say said store wishes to run a tournament with the latest 40k rules. All the rules are a requirements for every player. Lets say we have 32 players. This store, no matter what has lost £640 as GW has decided to stick 2 fingers up at them and say they cannot purchase this to sell in their stores.
It's not a fringe item like Forgeworld (another item which independents cannot purchase wholesale IIRC). This is an essential update for the core game and if the customers wish to support their FLGS, GW is saying a big, fat NO!
Not every player needs this book. And keep in mind that in the past there were updates that everyone needed to buy (Trial Assault Rules, Trial Vehicle Rules), which had limited availability once the White Dwarf issues originally showcasing them went out of rotation (and before the appropriate Chapter Approved books came out).
That's why I used an example of an instore tournament... You know, where having said book would be compulsory for participation, just like owning a rulebook.
The examples you gave were NOT examples of a compulsory rules update. They're trial rules. It says so right in the name. Also, GW had these on their site (IIRC) before the Chapter Approved annuals came out.
tvih wrote: Fact of the matter is, at the end of the day there's no "direct only." At least it seems so in Europe. Because our FLGS is able to order "direct only" products from GW just fine, at the regular dealer discount. It does require keeping a larger stock than usual perhaps (terms of the agreement and whatnot), but it most certainly can be done.
In the US, Mikhalia here on dakka owns two stores I believe and has posted that "direct" only items come with a much smaller discount from GW to retailers resulting in less profit for the same work and with an uglier generic box for the minis.
That's minis I think. I'd be interested to know from Mike or another Indy store owner here if this ruleset is indeed not for sale to retailers.
As to commentary above about GW no longer being carried by indy stores, I think it's likely that's what GW thinks is best, so that the only place to buy their stuff will be directly from them, enabling their control of their product. Also reducing the GW hhhhobbyist's exposure to the horrors of 'other systems'.
nkelsch wrote: It seems to be exactly what everyone has been asking for.
That's a bit of an exaggeration, isn't t? With mail order only, English only, no new content except retconning the fluff for Storm Ravens etc.
Funny, I can get it locally in my GW store... and the thing people have been asking for is rules for the models released since they can't get the WD or the IOS digital download. So now that they give exactly what people asked for you guys sit there and say "well it should have been new rules for new models."
And initial release in the primary language of the 3 countries with thier majority base is something to complain about? I guess they really can never do right.
This is a cool release...
I find it less than thrilling. I had customers asking for the book this week. I spent a couple of hours on the phone with people at GW US, trying for anything. Don't care if I'm not getting it, just please tell me what to tell my customers. They all lied. Pretending they didn't know.
GW is pulling blisters out of US stores, taking away products we used to sell. Keeping us in the dark. Not giving us new releases. Our big information tool is going to always be late. I'm cutting my orders for White Dwarf again.
Grimtuff wrote: That's why I used an example of an instore tournament... You know, where having said book would be compulsory for participation, just like owning a rulebook.
The examples you gave were NOT examples of a compulsory rules update. They're trial rules. It says so right in the name. Also, GW had these on their site (IIRC) before the Chapter Approved annuals came out.
Try again. If I play Chaos Space Marines, Dark Angels, Eldar, Tau, Tyranids, or Sisters of Battle, I don't think I need to buy a new book in order to get access to rules updates that I don't have. By contrast, many (most?) tournaments mandated the Trial Assault Rules and Trial Vehicle Rules once those came out-- this is what's referred to as "3.5e".
Ronin_eX wrote: Definitely a dick move on GW's part... but I can't say that I think the store response and method of protest is a good one. What they are doing simply screws over customers, not GW. I can't see this ending well for them. GW were dicks to them, but being dicks to customers is only going to drive people away instead of rallying them against GW's draconian treatment of independent retailers.
If they really wanted to stick it to GW then they would drop their products (and doing so on a massive scale would hurt GW in areas like North America, where the low density of GW stores couldn't possibly pick up the slack). Telling customers they can't use their new book and that it is contraband while still carrying everything else GW sells just seems cowardly as a protest.
I can't see what they are hoping to accomplish.
I think people seeing this as a dick move to customers (I'm not picking on you, yours is just the latest post in the matter) are missing what stores are doing to/for their customers: they are telling customers that they don't have to buy this supplement and customers can comfortably play with what they already have, without fear of being at a disadvantage to players who actually break down and buy the new rules from GW. Now, I'd love to see Stormravens added to BT-I think it's very necessary. But this store (and the other ones cropping up) are trying to help their customers. They are also encouraging new games. Stores are there to generate money anyway-GW is trying to take that option away. So the stores are not supporting GW anymore. They are still helping their customers, and are, in fact, bringing them into new games to keep them gaming and keeping them happy.
Ronin_eX wrote: Definitely a dick move on GW's part... but I can't say that I think the store response and method of protest is a good one. What they are doing simply screws over customers, not GW. I can't see this ending well for them. GW were dicks to them, but being dicks to customers is only going to drive people away instead of rallying them against GW's draconian treatment of independent retailers.
If they really wanted to stick it to GW then they would drop their products (and doing so on a massive scale would hurt GW in areas like North America, where the low density of GW stores couldn't possibly pick up the slack). Telling customers they can't use their new book and that it is contraband while still carrying everything else GW sells just seems cowardly as a protest.
I can't see what they are hoping to accomplish.
I think people seeing this as a dick move to customers (I'm not picking on you, yours is just the latest post in the matter) are missing what stores are doing to/for their customers: they are telling customers that they don't have to buy this supplement and customers can comfortably play with what they already have, without fear of being at a disadvantage to players who actually break down and buy the new rules from GW. Now, I'd love to see Stormravens added to BT-I think it's very necessary. But this store (and the other ones cropping up) are trying to help their customers. They are also encouraging new games. Stores are there to generate money anyway-GW is trying to take that option away. So the stores are not supporting GW anymore. They are still helping their customers, and are, in fact, bringing them into new games to keep them gaming and keeping them happy.
If they're trying to help me, they're failing. They're trying to convince me to play a different system, which is not the role of a store. Unfortunately, I have no faith in a store that would sell out a system once. Who is to say they won't end up pulling the same trick against Warmahordes when they next put out a release that the community doesn't like? Fundamentally a store that is willing to sell out a system and stop supporting its customers once has lost its trust with me, and given the easy and appealing "20-30% discounted online store" option such stores will never have my business.
Anyone know a good remedy for this wicked eye-rolling injury this thread just gave me?
Anybody else have an issue with their store "banning" Cities of Death or Planetstrike? Death from the Skies will come and go within a few weeks as well.
Try again. If I play Chaos Space Marines, Dark Angels, Eldar, Tau, Tyranids, or Sisters of Battle, I don't think I need to buy a new book in order to get access to rules updates that I don't have.
No YOU try again...
Most tournaments will say you need the 40k rulebook and all the relevant core rules updates (i.e. this book) regardless of what army you play. If you're not using any fortifications or allies do you not need to the rulebook too hmm? Just because you do not play the army in question (and regardless, you can make use of the things in the book via allies) does not mean this is not going to be a compulsory buy for many a tournament goer.
By contrast, many (most?) tournaments mandated the Trial Assault Rules and Trial Vehicle Rules once those came out-- this is what's referred to as "3.5e".
A lot of tournaments also banned armies painted red. Just like the colour of a certain fish that that point is...
It is a slap to the face of the independent stores. You can sell the Stormtalon in your store, but you can't sell the rulebook that includes the Stormtalon's rules. How do you explain that to a customer?
I think this will only work if there is a concerted, consciously or not, effort by many retailers not to carry GW products anymore. Otherwise it's just like fuel. Sure you don't buy from that place anymore, but you still buy down the road.
Did I just compare GW addiction to fuel dependency?
I still don't think this is part of the watershed people think will happen soon, regarding a backlash towards GW.
Tis true about the strained relationship between non GW stores and GW
But I must say this does suck a bit though if you indeed still like to play warhammer. Soon you know it, playing warhammer will be looked as much down upon as smoking in public or liking Justin Bieber
Try again. If I play Chaos Space Marines, Dark Angels, Eldar, Tau, Tyranids, or Sisters of Battle, I don't think I need to buy a new book in order to get access to rules updates that I don't have.
No YOU try again...
Most tournaments will say you need the 40k rulebook and all the relevant core rules updates (i.e. this book) regardless of what army you play. If you're not using any fortifications or allies do you not need to the rulebook too hmm? Just because you do not play the army in question (and regardless, you can make use of the things in the book via allies) does not mean this is not going to be a compulsory buy for many a tournament goer.
This isn't a "relevant core rules update" if none of the rules in it apply to you, is it?
Anyone know a good remedy for this wicked eye-rolling injury this thread just gave me?
Anybody else have an issue with their store "banning" Cities of Death or Planetstrike? Death from the Skies will come and go within a few weeks as well.
Useless drama is useless.
Releases come and go, but the goodwill of the retailers that are needed to push the product into the hands of people is a resource slow to grow and fast to burn.
As Mikhaila's post illustrates, the relationship between GW and the independents is (at least in some cases) turning adversarial rather then co-operative. The long term results of this change in attitude will not just be a few books missed out on, but a sustained realization that GW is not their supplier, but their competitor.
Try again. If I play Chaos Space Marines, Dark Angels, Eldar, Tau, Tyranids, or Sisters of Battle, I don't think I need to buy a new book in order to get access to rules updates that I don't have.
No YOU try again...
Most tournaments will say you need the 40k rulebook and all the relevant core rules updates (i.e. this book) regardless of what army you play. If you're not using any fortifications or allies do you not need to the rulebook too hmm? Just because you do not play the army in question (and regardless, you can make use of the things in the book via allies) does not mean this is not going to be a compulsory buy for many a tournament goer.
This isn't a "relevant core rules update" if none of the rules in it apply to you, is it?
If it's not a core rules update then what is it then cleverclogs?
Anyone know a good remedy for this wicked eye-rolling injury this thread just gave me?
Anybody else have an issue with their store "banning" Cities of Death or Planetstrike? Death from the Skies will come and go within a few weeks as well.
Useless drama is useless.
Probably "don't read forums." The number of molehills being turned into mountains on here is just crazy.
Kingsley wrote: To be honest, if any store owner tells me not to play with official Games Workshop products at that store, I'm going to stop playing (and buying) at that store at all. This strategy might work in places where the store is "the only game in town," but I have many choices for stores to attend and if some of them decide not to support the game system I play, I'm out.
Um, no.
Say said store wishes to run a tournament with the latest 40k rules. All the rules are a requirements for every player. Lets say we have 32 players. This store, no matter what has lost £640 as GW has decided to stick 2 fingers up at them and say they cannot purchase this to sell in their stores.
It's not a fringe item like Forgeworld (another item which independents cannot purchase wholesale IIRC). This is an essential update for the core game and if the customers wish to support their FLGS, GW is saying a big, fat NO!
I thought Death from the Skies was a compendium, which means they aren't all new rules? I find this a bit silly if that is true, i can see why they would be annoyed with it being direct only, but they didn't ban the units that are in the book before this even though they weren't available to everyone.
I think people seeing this as a dick move to customers (I'm not picking on you, yours is just the latest post in the matter) are missing what stores are doing to/for their customers: they are telling customers that they don't have to buy this supplement and customers can comfortably play with what they already have, without fear of being at a disadvantage to players who actually break down and buy the new rules from GW. Now, I'd love to see Stormravens added to BT-I think it's very necessary. But this store (and the other ones cropping up) are trying to help their customers. They are also encouraging new games. Stores are there to generate money anyway-GW is trying to take that option away. So the stores are not supporting GW anymore. They are still helping their customers, and are, in fact, bringing them into new games to keep them gaming and keeping them happy.
The point is, Aslong as i have it, and it is relevant to the game, it shouldnt matter, I dont expect my opponent to have a copy of mt SM codex.
Reduce the need to shelf product in LGS's, and then you can see how this is going to end up.
One of two ways- GW starts cutting them out altogether, or opening up more one man shops in and around established gaming areas.
Either way "Grand Strategy" it is a zero sum gain.
A store being this draconian is the thing, though. You haven't really ever seen anything like this before. It's not like these stores are rolling in money to begin with. THEN you get to looking at how they are treated by the distribution hubs, then on top of that the gakky economy....
All in all, as was said in other threads, the economy is going to dictate your shrinking "Excess spending" as the inflation/ prices on everything else continue to increase as well.
For everyone all around, this is a bad deal. First it will be the flyers, then next it will be tournaments, then it comes to "Special stuff," such as that Direct sales stuff in the white generic boxes. Between that and the gakity gak of the pricing, your going to see a breaking point sooner then later.
You, the guy/ gal who is going to play in the store, are the one who is going to end up taking it in the hindquarters.
I find the Warmahordes thing a bit much though. THAT is not going to do anything but encourage more gak.
For example-
I just ended up dropping a hundred or so on two boxes of ten guys each. Irregardless, that is going to be my last "Purchase" of Warmahordes from a store for awhile.
One box of Iron Fangs, and One box of Stormguard. Picked them up from FRG in the sales bin. The price was $106.43.
Grimtuff wrote: If it's not a core rules update then what is it then cleverclogs?
Go on, I'll wait.
It's a compendium containing a battle report, fluff, a gallery of painted models, a few scenarios, the optional dogfighting and Ace rules from Crusade of Fire, and updated rules for a few units that had previously limited or unavailable rules. If you don't have those units, you don't need the book. Everything else in the compendium is nonmandatory. A tournament could of course choose to play with the dogfighting/Ace rules if they were so inclined, but even so armies that didn't field flyers wouldn't need the book.
Noone's said you can't play GW games in their shops. Just that the new 'integral' updating rules won't be added to the games in those stores due to GW giving the middle finger to those self same stores. I can't blame them, all the indy stores in America are getting treated fairly repulsively. Of course they will be interested in selling something to you that will be better supported. PP needs to shift it up a gear and keep on providing and stepping in to provide a delicious alternative every time GW lands a steaming turd on everyone's cornflakes.
Good Lord, when Mikhaila from Showcase is telling you how crappy it's become, it means ITS. BECOME. CRAPPY. That guy, two years back, sat across a table from me and managed to convince me GW was a great company, working logically and helping out FLGSs and providing excellent support... Now the guy has entirely lost faith in the company, they should bring him to Nottingham and unleash him at the board of directors, to lambast them on what they're doing so bloody wrong, instead they'll close ranks further and cocoon themselves even deeper in a layer of nodding dog upper management and the steady strangulation of the customer base for share value.
Now, with this and all the rest of the shenanigans we're seeing with what they will and won't sell to Indy stores, I'd love a fething answer from them about how this marries with the horse gak they were peddling a while back about taking on the online stores to enable and protect the FLGSs...
What a shower of greedy, morally devoid liars those top brass are.
Grimtuff wrote: If it's not a core rules update then what is it then cleverclogs?
Go on, I'll wait.
It's a compendium containing a battle report, fluff, a gallery of painted models, a few scenarios, the optional dogfighting and Ace rules from Crusade of Fire, and updated rules for a few units that had previously limited or unavailable rules. If you don't have those units, you don't need the book. Everything else in the compendium is nonmandatory. A tournament could of course choose to play with the dogfighting/Ace rules if they were so inclined, but even so armies that didn't field flyers wouldn't need the book.
It contains rules for models included in the army lists. It is an integral ruleset for armies containing those models.
I have an ork flyer, I am now required to obtain this extra set of rules to field it. It is not an optional ruleset or apocalypse styled expansion, flyers are core parts of the 6th edition rules, I need the rules in that book to use mine.
It would make some sense if the retailers do decide not to order any more storm talons or Dakkajets then.
As for just 'dropping the product' - that really would not surprise me if Death from the Skies hasn't caused the independent stores to make that a long term plan now.
I really do think the whole reason for this and the increase in other 'direct only' items is entirely to siphon FLGS' customers away.
All this will serve is to kill the game in local area, to deprive people of a place to play, my store is considering dropping GW all together. It is just stupid. All this is is a money grab from GW to sell more models, By god, it only has on rule change, and that is SM and BT get access to a flyer.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: It contains rules for models included in the army lists. It is an integral ruleset for armies containing those models.
I have an ork flyer, I am now required to obtain this extra set of rules to field it. It is not an optional ruleset or apocalypse styled expansion, flyers are core parts of the 6th edition rules, I need the rules in that book to use mine.
That's quite different from a "core rules update." The core game rules are not affected. Codexes with updated flyers are not affected. Codexes without flyers are not affected. Digital Codexes have (purportedly) been updated already. If you have old print rules, then yeah, this updates them. But that is far from affecting every player in the game.
hotsauceman1 wrote: All this is is a money grab from GW to sell more models, By god, it only has on rule change, and that is SM and BT get access to a flyer.
All this is is a money grab
All this is is a price increase
All this is is money driven rules changes
All this is is predatory store placement
All this is is finecast
All this is is lack of tournament support
All this is is lack of communication
All this is is armies going years between updates
All this is is taking away playing space in a game store
All this is is cost cutting to them with no break to the consumer
This is a good first step, but if Gnome Games really wanted to make a difference they would stop carrying GW for a period of time, and convince other retailers to do the same as well.
It's funny that people say it doesn't affect my codex so it doesn't affect the core so it sucks to be you. Last time I checked we actually played games within a community against living opponents. Screwing a portion of that community is bad for the whole community as if even one person chooses to leave then the community is diminished as a whole. Some people just can't put aside there white armour and selfishness for five seconds to think of the community as a whole.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: It contains rules for models included in the army lists. It is an integral ruleset for armies containing those models.
I have an ork flyer, I am now required to obtain this extra set of rules to field it. It is not an optional ruleset or apocalypse styled expansion, flyers are core parts of the 6th edition rules, I need the rules in that book to use mine.
That's quite different from a "core rules update." The core game rules are not affected. Codexes with updated flyers are not affected. Codexes without flyers are not affected. Digital Codexes have (purportedly) been updated already. If you have old print rules, then yeah, this updates them. But that is far from affecting every player in the game.
Might want to take a gander at the latest round of 40kFAQs. EVERY flier has been updated.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: It contains rules for models included in the army lists. It is an integral ruleset for armies containing those models.
I have an ork flyer, I am now required to obtain this extra set of rules to field it. It is not an optional ruleset or apocalypse styled expansion, flyers are core parts of the 6th edition rules, I need the rules in that book to use mine.
That's quite different from a "core rules update." The core game rules are not affected. Codexes with updated flyers are not affected. Codexes without flyers are not affected. Digital Codexes have (purportedly) been updated already. If you have old print rules, then yeah, this updates them. But that is far from affecting every player in the game.
Of course it's a core rules update for any player who owns these models, sold to them as part of the core 40k game.
I own ork flyers, they are models for the game 40k, not any expansion or supplement, I cannot now field them without obtaining what's in that book. Just because the other guy is unaffected, a core rule for units in my army now only exists in a new book I have to buy direct from GW.
If they suddenly announce that Land Raiders rules are updated and now the new 'book of land raiders' contains the rules for them, but you have to buy it, then a core element of your basic rules army is now only playable with obtaining that book.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: It contains rules for models included in the army lists. It is an integral ruleset for armies containing those models.
I have an ork flyer, I am now required to obtain this extra set of rules to field it. It is not an optional ruleset or apocalypse styled expansion, flyers are core parts of the 6th edition rules, I need the rules in that book to use mine.
That's quite different from a "core rules update." The core game rules are not affected. Codexes with updated flyers are not affected. Codexes without flyers are not affected. Digital Codexes have (purportedly) been updated already. If you have old print rules, then yeah, this updates them. But that is far from affecting every player in the game.
Might want to take a gander at the latest round of 40kFAQs. EVERY flier has been updated.
Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot?
Ork FAQ wrote:White Dwarf June 2012 (WD390)
Updated rules for the Ork Dakkajet, Burna-bommer and Blitzabommer can be found in the Death From the Skies compendium
MeanGreenStompa wrote: It contains rules for models included in the army lists. It is an integral ruleset for armies containing those models.
I have an ork flyer, I am now required to obtain this extra set of rules to field it. It is not an optional ruleset or apocalypse styled expansion, flyers are core parts of the 6th edition rules, I need the rules in that book to use mine.
That's quite different from a "core rules update." The core game rules are not affected. Codexes with updated flyers are not affected. Codexes without flyers are not affected. Digital Codexes have (purportedly) been updated already. If you have old print rules, then yeah, this updates them. But that is far from affecting every player in the game.
Might want to take a gander at the latest round of 40kFAQs. EVERY flier has been updated.
Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot?
Ork FAQ wrote:White Dwarf June 2012 (WD390)
Updated rules for the Ork Dakkajet, Burna-bommer and Blitzabommer can be found in the Death From the Skies compendium
No, you've got the right spot. See, now you have to buy the super-special FAQ that costs £20 to get the rules for said Flyer.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: It contains rules for models included in the army lists. It is an integral ruleset for armies containing those models.
I have an ork flyer, I am now required to obtain this extra set of rules to field it. It is not an optional ruleset or apocalypse styled expansion, flyers are core parts of the 6th edition rules, I need the rules in that book to use mine.
That's quite different from a "core rules update." The core game rules are not affected. Codexes with updated flyers are not affected. Codexes without flyers are not affected. Digital Codexes have (purportedly) been updated already. If you have old print rules, then yeah, this updates them. But that is far from affecting every player in the game.
Might want to take a gander at the latest round of 40kFAQs. EVERY flier has been updated.
Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot?
Ork FAQ wrote:White Dwarf June 2012 (WD390)
Updated rules for the Ork Dakkajet, Burna-bommer and Blitzabommer can be found in the Death From the Skies compendium
No, you've got the right spot. See, now you have to buy the super-special FAQ that costs £20 to get the rules for said Flyer.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: It contains rules for models included in the army lists. It is an integral ruleset for armies containing those models.
I have an ork flyer, I am now required to obtain this extra set of rules to field it. It is not an optional ruleset or apocalypse styled expansion, flyers are core parts of the 6th edition rules, I need the rules in that book to use mine.
That's quite different from a "core rules update." The core game rules are not affected. Codexes with updated flyers are not affected. Codexes without flyers are not affected. Digital Codexes have (purportedly) been updated already. If you have old print rules, then yeah, this updates them. But that is far from affecting every player in the game.
Might want to take a gander at the latest round of 40kFAQs. EVERY flier has been updated.
Every pre-6e (aka, not updated) flyer has, sure. But the Heldrake hasn't. The Dark Talon hasn't. The Nephilim Jetfighter hasn't. The Harpy hasn't. The Winged Hive Tyrant hasn't. The Winged Dæmon Prince and Greater Dæmons haven't.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: It contains rules for models included in the army lists. It is an integral ruleset for armies containing those models.
I have an ork flyer, I am now required to obtain this extra set of rules to field it. It is not an optional ruleset or apocalypse styled expansion, flyers are core parts of the 6th edition rules, I need the rules in that book to use mine.
That's quite different from a "core rules update." The core game rules are not affected. Codexes with updated flyers are not affected. Codexes without flyers are not affected. Digital Codexes have (purportedly) been updated already. If you have old print rules, then yeah, this updates them. But that is far from affecting every player in the game.
Of course it's a core rules update for any player who owns these models, sold to them as part of the core 40k game.
I own ork flyers, they are models for the game 40k, not any expansion or supplement, I cannot now field them without obtaining what's in that book. Just because the other guy is unaffected, a core rule for units in my army now only exists in a new book I have to buy direct from GW.
If they suddenly announce that Land Raiders rules are updated and now the new 'book of land raiders' contains the rules for them, but you have to buy it, then a core element of your basic rules army is now only playable with obtaining that book.
Do you really think the Ork flyers are models for the 40k core game and not an expansion or supplement? Last time I checked, you still need a Codex to use them, and Codexes are supplements. Core rules updates affect the rulebook and are necessary for everyone-- in general, GW doesn't do these aside from the big edition switches, because they really do require every player to buy new rules. These only affect players using certain units and therefore aren't core game changes.
Do you really think the Ork flyers are models for the 40k core game and not an expansion or supplement? Last time I checked, you still need a Codex to use them, and Codexes are supplements. Core rules updates affect the rulebook and are necessary for everyone-- in general, GW doesn't do these aside from the big edition switches, because they really do require every player to buy new rules. These only affect players using certain units and therefore aren't core game changes.
Have you ever played the game? You require a codex to play the game, it isn't a supplement.
Are you a GW employee perhaps? Or Tom Kirby's mum?
Might want to take a gander at the latest round of 40kFAQs. EVERY flier has been updated.
Maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot?
Basically - units that were previously introduced in WD - in other words, Ork flyers and Stormtalon - are now "DftS units", and the same is true of the SR as far as BT and C:SM are concerned, at least until they get their next codices.
But flyers that already existed in their respective codex books got the relevant changes in the FAQ, like Vendetta and Valkyrie losing Deep Strike and Scout, and so forth. As such armies that already had rules for their flyers in their codices don't need this book to keep using them.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Have you ever played the game? You require a codex to play the game, it isn't a supplement.
Obviously yes, and you don't in fact need a Codex to play the game-- see for instance Dark Vengeance. Codexes are important supplements, but still separate from the core game.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Have you ever played the game? You require a codex to play the game, it isn't a supplement.
Obviously yes, and you don't in fact need a Codex to play the game-- see for instance Dark Vengeance. Codexes are important supplements, but still separate from the core game.
To play a game, no, you don't need a codex, but at a tournament, I'm bloody making sure the guy against me has his codex or source material his army list came from.
A friend of mine is famous for misreading rules and then leaving his codex at home or having just scanned the lists and input them in an excel spreadsheet. Our policy towards him is now this: No codex? No firey-ball-of-doom-that-incinerates-everything-on-a-2+ for you, then.
I dont mean to poo on anyones hate parade......but the new FAQS out today clearly have all the rules updates for free.....you dont need the book. I will be getting it because it contains White Dwarf stuff I dont have and I'm a nerd. Maybe too quick to overreact. Also, I dont have a Blood Angels Codex, would you prefer I buy a 41.00 Codex, or a 33.00 Book that has two of my units instead of one, as I play regular marines?
Kingsley wrote: Obviously yes, and you don't in fact need a Codex to play the game-- see for instance Dark Vengeance. Codexes are important supplements, but still separate from the core game.
Or.... Dark Vengence was it's own game as an introduction to the standard 40K game. But the BRB says tells you to play you need to construct an army from the codex and with FAQs, there's an entire section on that!
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Grahamulot wrote: I dont mean to poo on anyones hate parade......but the new FAQS out today clearly have all the rules updates for free.....you dont need the book. I will be getting it because it contains White Dwarf stuff I dont have and I'm a nerd. Maybe too quick to overreact. Also, I dont have a Blood Angels Codex, would you prefer I buy a 41.00 Codex, or a 33.00 Book that has two of my units instead of one, as I play regular marines?
Try reading those FAQs again. They tell you to ignore the previous WD and use the DftS book. So the day the book comes out they invalidate the previous rules and force you to buy another book just to play 1 model.
Grahamulot wrote: I dont mean to poo on anyones hate parade......but the new FAQS out today clearly have all the rules updates for free.....you dont need the book. I will be getting it because it contains White Dwarf stuff I dont have and I'm a nerd. Maybe too quick to overreact. Also, I dont have a Blood Angels Codex, would you prefer I buy a 41.00 Codex, or a 33.00 Book that has two of my units instead of one, as I play regular marines?
Tell that to Ork players, who now have to buy a $33 book to play with ANY of their flyers.
A friend of mine runs dual dakka jets. He loves playing them and it breathed new life into his ork army. Now he has to play $33 to keep playing them at the local GW, where previously he had the rules for much cheaper. I don't see how this new books helps him at all. Frankly, I think this new book is appalling. And yet I feel I have to get it to keep playing any of my armies.
It is nothing wrong with the "Death from the sky compendium" IF GW STOP HIS POLICY - buy this because it is good and has super rules, and if you don't buy it someone else will and beat you with it AND THEN in 3-6 months say :" you know that shiny thing?? well...now it's bad, now it costs double the points...and you have to buy this new thing"
I don't complain about the NEW armies being better. I complain and I am being concerned about the future - is this miniature going to be ok...or not??
So..if this compendium starts saying Nights Scythes are now 120 Pts, Hell Drakes are 200 pts an lose their invul save, OR in fact when screamers and Flamers will be released once again they will be nerfed... THEN I SAY.... GO BUY SOME WARMACHINE OR INFINITY and let them have it.
Hope you understand...like you all..I am concerned about the future and that " what if would do this or that.... :(:(:( )
@grahamulot having read the space marine FAQ I can categorically tell you it does not give you the rules for fielding a storm talon or storm raven in a space marine army. It just tells you to buy the flier compendium.
Are you a GW employee perhaps? Or Tom Kirby's mum?
I'm not a GW employee. I don't care about GW.
If you don't care about GW the why post in GW threads in a pro GW manner?
I don't post in a "pro GW manner," I post in an unbiased manner. The simple fact is that GW gets a lot of unwarranted hate. Are they perfect? No, they leave a lot to be desired. But they do a lot of things right, and a lot of the GW hatred is unwarranted. For instance, getting mad over one-click bundles that don't contain a discount is just plain silly.
People will use any reason to hate on GW. Reminds me of the haters here in the US who demonize "profit" as though it's a sin.
I'm glad to pay the $35 to have the rules. I went to 3 different stores looking for the demons update and the ork flyer rules when they were released. 3 stores and all sold out and not able to get more....
Now rather than hauling around a printed PDF, I will have the official book.
If $35 is too much for you, surely you already knew this hobby was too expensive for you, because that's chump change compared to the startup cost of getting into the hobby.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Have you ever played the game? You require a codex to play the game, it isn't a supplement.
Obviously yes, and you don't in fact need a Codex to play the game-- see for instance Dark Vengeance. Codexes are important supplements, but still separate from the core game.
BarBoBot wrote: People will use any reason to hate on GW. Reminds me of the haters here in the US who demonize "profit" as though it's a sin.
I'm glad to pay the $35 to have the rules. I went to 3 different stores looking for the demons update and the ork flyer rules when they were released. 3 stores and all sold out and not able to get more....
Now rather than hauling around a printed PDF, I will have the official book.
If $35 is too much for you, surely you already knew this hobby was too expensive for you, because that's chump change compared to the startup cost of getting into the hobby.
Except I got in two editions ago when a landraider was in the $50 mark and the starter set was $75. Now I am worried about maintaining my armies so I can play, which is much more expensive then when I started.
Seems to me, that if I owned a store, I would buy one, make copies and promote the models contained therein... of course thats illegal......The odd thing is, the more I try to defend it, the more I know that it contains little valuable information besides a few minor tweaks, which is just odd.
BarBoBot wrote: People will use any reason to hate on GW. Reminds me of the haters here in the US who demonize "profit" as though it's a sin.
I'm glad to pay the $35 to have the rules. I went to 3 different stores looking for the demons update and the ork flyer rules when they were released. 3 stores and all sold out and not able to get more....
Now rather than hauling around a printed PDF, I will have the official book.
If $35 is too much for you, surely you already knew this hobby was too expensive for you, because that's chump change compared to the startup cost of getting into the hobby.
The problem is that Player "A" had rules with the WD for Flyer "X" and now his flyer is completely useless because GW says that the rules aren't valid, even though it's probably the exact same rules. What's wrong with printed PDF? You do the same for FAQs. I can put them in a leather bound book with the finest paper for a nice mark up if you're interested in having a nice fancy book.
BarBoBot wrote: People will use any reason to hate on GW. Reminds me of the haters here in the US who demonize "profit" as though it's a sin.
I'm glad to pay the $35 to have the rules. I went to 3 different stores looking for the demons update and the ork flyer rules when they were released. 3 stores and all sold out and not able to get more....
Now rather than hauling around a printed PDF, I will have the official book.
If $35 is too much for you, surely you already knew this hobby was too expensive for you, because that's chump change compared to the startup cost of getting into the hobby.
No. You are missing the point.
It is not exactly in this case about "Not being able to afford a 35.00 book."
Please ignore the sideshows, and look back at the base discussion in the blog posting.
This issue here is not about the price. It is about access.
If you've already bought a codex and the company releases a new mini, I personally think that's great. If you then also buy that new mini, the very least they could do is give you the bloody rules for it, not stick them in another book and charge you as much for the rules as the mini costs.
It's highway bloody robbery.
It's a further act of grabbing parasitical lowlife to then limit who sells those rules so that only the parent company, at full price, can sell them, but then also take away gaming in the parent stores so that Independent store owners who DO provide the service of gaming tables are expected to enjoy the sight of you using products they can't sell on their tables.
These stores banning the use of the expansion are as entitled to ban it's use as GW is to ban the use of proxy models. Their store, their rules.
How many people who play at shops more than at home/clubs where you would not have access to a store copy actually own a copy of Apocalypse, Cities of Death, or Planetstrike?
Things like "Death from the Skies" strike me as more a "club purchase" at this point rather than an "individual purchase".
Grahamulot wrote: The odd thing is, the more I try to defend it, the more I know that it contains little valuable information besides a few minor tweaks, which is just odd.
A few minor tweaks, yes. I also thought it was meant to fill in the gap for those who didn't get the WD rules on time. But the recent FAQs just opened a new gap (not to mention Death from the Skies is English only, which leaves 1/3 of GW's customer base out).
Was it confirmed that LGS' have no access to this supplement, rather than just limited/lower margin access?
Couldn't work out if Mikhaila was confirming that or just saying that noone would tell him.
How many people who play at shops more than at home/clubs where you would not have access to a store copy actually own a copy of Apocalypse, Cities of Death, or Planetstrike?
Things like "Death from the Skies" strike me as more a "club purchase" at this point rather than an "individual purchase".
I owned all three (sold two recently though) and play exclusively at FLGS. I used them for store themed games as well as private ones prior to the advent of 6th edition that I'm not particularly fond of.
How many people who play at shops more than at home/clubs where you would not have access to a store copy actually own a copy of Apocalypse, Cities of Death, or Planetstrike?
Things like "Death from the Skies" strike me as more a "club purchase" at this point rather than an "individual purchase".
I own IA: AOC 2nd edition, planet strike, Crusade of Fire and battle missions.
And, regrettably, I am probably going to buy this one as well.
BarBoBot wrote: If $35 is too much for you, surely you already knew this hobby was too expensive for you, because that's chump change compared to the startup cost of getting into the hobby.
You now have to factor this book into the startup costs with the way the rules work. Its not an 'optional' buy. Fliers are apart of sixth and even if your army doesnt have them, they will eventually. Until then, you will be playing against people whom do have them at times and youll be required to have the rules of those models; only through this book.
BarBoBot wrote: If $35 is too much for you, surely you already knew this hobby was too expensive for you, because that's chump change compared to the startup cost of getting into the hobby.
You now have to factor this book into the startup costs with the way the rules work. Its not an 'optional' buy. Fliers are apart of sixth and even if your army doesnt have them, they will eventually. Until then, you will be playing against people whom do have them at times and youll be required to have the rules of those models; only through this book.
Since when do you have to have the rules for other people's models? Also, this compendium is not required for all flyers-- it's merely an update to the pre-6th edition flyers found in some armies.
Plus the shipping. You have to buy it from them and the pay them anothor almost $10 to ship it.
Since you have to buy it from them, they can charge you for almost 25% more just to get the
over priced FAQ.
How many people who play at shops own a copy of Apocalypse, Cities of Death, or Planetstrike?
Things like "Death from the Skies" strike me as more a "club purchase" at this point rather than an "individual purchase".
I own an ork army including an ork flyer, an ork codex and a copy of the rules.
Can I currently use my full ork army to play the game?
Yes or no.
How should I know?
I haven't played in quite awhile--which is precisely why I asked this question, MGS. It wasn't meant to be a distraction or diversion. I was genuinely curious.
Personally, I would not be opposed to buying the book myself and being willing to "loan it out" when playing games against people who did not have the rules.
It is not exactly in this case about "Not being able to afford a 35.00 book."
Please ignore the sideshows, and look back at the base discussion in the blog posting.
This issue here is not about the price. It is about access.
Of course I would have preferred to walk into my flgs and get the book, but being able to order it directly through GW still provides access for everyone to have it, and it's not going to put my flgs out of business, because i'll still be buying all my other hobby needs from them at a discount.
Kingsley wrote: Also, this compendium is not required for all flyers-- it's merely an update to the pre-6th edition flyers found in some armies.
And how much do you want to bet they still HAVEN'T fixed "outflanking" for the Vendetta?! So now I'm forced to buy something that isn't even complete?!?!
Kingsley wrote: Also, this compendium is not required for all flyers-- it's merely an update to the pre-6th edition flyers found in some armies.
And how much do you want to be they still HAVEN't fixed "outflanking" for the Vendetta?! So now I'm forced to buy something that isn't even complete?!?!
They did, don't worry. IGFAQ update 1.2 removed scout and deep strike rules. (FINALLY!)
It'll be interesting to see what happens. Traditionally, game companies did not want to cut out the local retailer, because he was always their best source of advertising. Kids go there, see the fun games, "Daddy, can I have..." etc.
Of course, the internet has changed that model, but how much, for this type of hobby? Miniatures gaming is, by definition, a physical, hands-on hobby. Would you really play miniatures wargames via skype, if you had another choice?
Personally, I think the two store owners quoted in the OP have reacted appropriately. Why do I want to support the products of a manufacturer who just wants to do me in?
How many people who play at shops own a copy of Apocalypse, Cities of Death, or Planetstrike?
Things like "Death from the Skies" strike me as more a "club purchase" at this point rather than an "individual purchase".
I own an ork army including an ork flyer, an ork codex and a copy of the rules.
Can I currently use my full ork army to play the game?
Yes or no.
How should I know?
I haven't played in quite awhile--which is precisely why I asked this question, MGS. It wasn't meant to be a distraction or diversion. I was genuinely curious.
Personally, I would not be opposed to buying the book myself and being willing to "loan it out" when playing games against people who did not have the rules.
The answer is no, I am not currently able to play my ork army, or in fact must play it reduced, despite owning the fething miniatures, annnd the codex, annnd the rulebook, I am not able to field them in my games because there is a new book I have to buy in order to play them.
Also, I can buy this safe in the knowledge that once the new 6th ed ork codex comes out, it will repeat these flyer rules and change the rest of the army so I already know that I have to buy that. So this ruleset is going to be rendered redundent in a few months to a year.
This has, in effect, added another 'compulsory' purchasing layer to my gaming. All this before we consider GW's second 'sweet deal' in this new release of limiting it's sale only to direct, so this 'compulsory' purchase is not available via my local gaming store. No wonder they don't want any part of this. I also suspect this is the first move in limiting the rules and expansions to direct only purchases.
It's just a further gakky move from the kings of spanker Mountain.
My FLGS hasn't ordered GW products hat ae flat out terrible for awhile now. The owner has passed on crusade of fire, hobbit, and I imagine this as well to no ill effect t his business
Ultimately, the OP display of defiance against the corporate giants of GW does absolutely nothing but possibly piss off some of the FLGS's customers.
What many FLGSs have to remember is their store is there because of the hobby, not the other way around. If your customer base primarily plays GW games, no amount of grumbling and grousing about GW's methods is going to switch them, and if you start being a douche about GW to the point of "banning" legit rule books, all you succeed in doing is driving your customer base away to your competition (or worse, creating new competition as one of those gamers decides to open his own FLGS, which has happened around my area a couple of times).
While making the book direct-sale only is kind of a dick move, ultimately, retailers are still going to benefit from it because it will increase the sale of those pricey flyer models. I know I'll be getting a stormraven as soon as the wallet can take the impact. Black Templar players will probably be clamoring for both flyers, as this should help their struggling armies compete in 6th edition.
BarBoBot wrote: If $35 is too much for you, surely you already knew this hobby was too expensive for you, because that's chump change compared to the startup cost of getting into the hobby.
You now have to factor this book into the startup costs with the way the rules work. Its not an 'optional' buy. Fliers are apart of sixth and even if your army doesnt have them, they will eventually. Until then, you will be playing against people whom do have them at times and youll be required to have the rules of those models; only through this book.
Since when do you have to have the rules for other people's models? Also, this compendium is not required for all flyers-- it's merely an update to the pre-6th edition flyers found in some armies.
Got the book to prove those assertions? I also request codexes when ever something questionable comes up as I have not memorized all the codexes or special rules within just yet. No codex/rules to show or just unwilling to show? Then it doesnt happen.
I understand why some people would be a bit upset that the FLGS would ban their new book that's now essential for their army. Though I think I'm a bit more sympathetic towards the local stores. I talked with the local owner of one on the subject and he didn't really have many positive things to say. But the thing is that the stores are feeling like GW is now trying to cut them out of the loop, and I agree with them. The shop owners are voicing their concern and acting in a way to show their protest.
What would you prefer them to do? Say they are upset and continue with the same old business routine? Many people will agree that GW needs to change their actions and the consumers really lack a lot of pull. Local stores on the other hand may be able to get a message through. I for one will fully support my local store no matter what side of the issue he takes, because I know he's a decent guy trying to run a business and have a fun store. I don't get that vibe from GW at all.
Okay, we all agree that it's a jerk move of GW to charge for something previously put through White Dwarf... but honestly, there -are- other ways to get copies, and if you had previous versions of the rules, you can look on your FAQ to see what's changed. The only ones who actively have to worry on this matter, from what I've seen from perusing the FAQs, is BT and SM do not have a point of reference for how much the ST and SR will cost them, hence they'd need the external aid.
Outside the point cost, the rules aren't seeming to actively change, meaning any copy (and I'm talking photocopy here) of the ST and/or SR rules should be adequate.
If someone had a reference, but not the book, I'd play them. Hell, the last tournie I went to had plenty of people without codexes but just reference sheets with the important information for the models they were using. I even saw one guy who just had a compiled list of photocopies of the relevant codex entries and a stat overview... something most armybuilding programs have (I know battlescribe does, and armybuilder used to).
Frankly, I'd be more perturbed at the Store for saying I'm not allowed to use flyer models that are now accessible to my codex, simply because they've decided to promote Warmachine.
Edit to Savage above: And yes, you're right, it does feel like GW is trying to cut out the middle man... or more specifically, cutting out the "store copy" and trying to force people to individually buy the book. I know that at my Local GW yesterday, when it was revealed to be direct only, the Manager could not get a verification if he was even getting copies, where just a few hours before it was assumed he would.
BarBoBot wrote: People will use any reason to hate on GW. Reminds me of the haters here in the US who demonize "profit" as though it's a sin.
I'm glad to pay the $35 to have the rules. I went to 3 different stores looking for the demons update and the ork flyer rules when they were released. 3 stores and all sold out and not able to get more....
Now rather than hauling around a printed PDF, I will have the official book.
If $35 is too much for you, surely you already knew this hobby was too expensive for you, because that's chump change compared to the startup cost of getting into the hobby.
I will pay gladly if they don't change the rules in 3 months and release another white dwarf update or compendium that we have to buy, OR they don't nerf( or change) what is in the compendium.
GW are just asking for people to rip their stuff off with online PDFs. You can't easily monopolise paper based publications or afford to be lazy about making them available (putting rules in a monthly magazine and then not bothering to make them available freely or otherwise afterwards for example), you have to make them accessible, entice the customer by making them more appealing than an online photocopy and build on customer goodwill and loyalty.
GW seem to be running short of customer goodwill recently and making their products more difficult to get hold of will not drive people into their shops and website to get 'exclusive', but essential, items. It will encourage a good number to go online and download it because it's so much easier and the hassle of acquiring legal copies and general disdain for GW won't even make them feel guilty for doing it.
Similarly the issue with finecast, it's a poor quality unreliable material and their prices are a joke. Even people who wouldn't previously touch a recast are considering doing so because you can get better for less expense from the counterfeiters.
Seems foolish to ban a product that could make a shop alot of money.
I understand being peeved about the "Direct Only" thing, but if I had a similiar circumstance in my shop, where a product was sold exclusively through the internet, I would stock the other products and accessories that compliment it. Especially if that product catered to a large part of my niche customer base (ie Space Marine players).
How many more flyer kits will be sold to Space Marine players because of this supplement? How many more Chapterhouse kits will be purchased? And for the retail professionals that know about the upsell... How many more paints, primer, glue, brushes?
NELS1031 wrote: Seems foolish to ban a product that could make a shop alot of money.
By not being able to sell it period... sure they could support it by selling the flyers and likely will do that but if there are rules in the book how can any FLGS actually support them for tournaments etc if they literally can't guarantee that they can provide them or that customers can even get a look at them? Considering the new FAQ is just an ad for the book I doubt there's anything in the book of major interest... well beyond new flyer entries maybe. Hard to browse the book over the internet so maybe there's nothing at all. As long as they let people use the old rules they had I don't see a big problem with the FAQ changes that weren't ads.
I could see supporting it is they were at least allowed to order it but if they can't even do that... yeah I'm not paying the shipping on a book with no units for any of my armies.
While it does seem rude to not allow FLGSs to carry it as a regular item, a FLGS cannot put its customers in the middle of a feud with a distributor.
Customers who are 'aware' or 'care' of the shittyness are already going to go out of their way to support you in other ways and would probably still support direct orders at a lowered rate. If you ordered it and sold it for more than MSRP, your supports would support you.
The problem is the customers who are not aware, and/or 'dont care'. And all this looks like is a temper tantrum which is going to make people want to leave your store and not return regardless how 'valid' the complaint is. Lots of consumers don't care if GW wont sell you a book for regular distributor discount. Hell, people still shop wal-mart regardless of human rights issues so they really don't care about you.
If a store wishes to stop stocking an item and change lanes on what they do, that's cool. The decision is to purge one customerbase for another. That makes business sense. But if you are still going to sell the product but then draw customers into a personal flamewar and degrade their experiece and tell someone who bought a WD and a dakkajet from your store they can't use it anymore because of something that doesn't involve them or they don't understand are not aware of is a bad model. You have decided to continue to sell a product to customers while pissing in their mouths and telling them it's raining.
If you can phase out warhammer and replace all your lost customers/income with other games, more power to you. That is going to be a different equation for each store owner to make, but I have seen 'temper tantrums' like this when someone is 'anti-product' but then is still attempting to sell it and is their large customer base, that is a recipe for going out of business.
It is gakky, but if your customers are already supporting your FLGS, I don't see this as being a reason to shake up your customer's experience to that degree of banning things people potentially purchased from you. Banning Forgeworld is infinitly more reasonable, and unless this place has banned scratch builts and forgeworld already due to inability to sell those, then this just smacks of poor business.
Is it just me, or would a classier approach to this would have been the store telling everybody not to bother buying it, because there will be a store copy available at all times, including tournaments, so nobody need buy their own?
NELS1031 wrote: How many more flyer kits will be sold to Space Marine players because of this supplement? How many more Chapterhouse kits will be purchased? And for the retail professionals that know about the upsell... How many more paints, primer, glue, brushes?
And if you have to go to GW to buy the book anyway, how many of those flyer kits and upsell items will be purcashed from GW instead of from the FLGS?
This book does nothing particularly fantastic for the FLGS, other than to force them to explain to customers that they can't sell them the rules for some of the kits that they have on the shelf.
GW have for decades now had a rule disallowing people from using stuff in-store that they (GW) don't sell... in some cases that has included Forgeworld, since, you know, people using Forgeworld kits that can't be bought in the store will just confuse and alienate customers. FLGS's banning the use of this book is ultimately no different to that.
If someone has to go to the effort of buying a book from GW, and any direct only characters, direct only finecast units and any direct only dice and templates, chances are, they're just going to end up buying everything from GW.
No doubt, just as planned.
Which does end up leaving FLGS' in the lurch, so they might as well find ways to manage the risk for the time being. So, start saying, "yeah, those GW rules, you don't need them here, you're fine mate." Starting to encourage sales of other companies. - "Did you know we stock the whole range of Battles of Compel?"
Admittedly, it's risky and I do think that the stores may suffer some short term pain cause of it. But it's either that or the long term goal of GW, which will likely amount to them only being willing to sell a FLGS a poster, emblazoned with the words.
"All these other games are just figments of your imagination. The only place to buy toys is at http://www.games-workshop.com"
I am agree it's a bit foolish to ban a legit product just because you can't sell it.
It seem to be an impulsive act more then a thoughtful gesture to ban something on my opinion. I have check the Gnome Games website and well... GW does'nt seem to be the kind of product that will close his store. It's a sword strike in the water... in a week no one will talk about it. Instead of just act like a too common "ragequit" why not just act more wisely and promote different kind of product. I like the idea of giving promotion to Warmachine, GW is not the only one after all ! It's never a good thing for a local store to base is profit only on GW, especially those years. After all, GW do what he want with his product. Never put all our eggs in the same basket! If GW want to sell his plastic at 100$ a miniature, we have the right to not buying it. There is so many alternative now, GW is just realizing it after all those years, bad for them... they miss the boat
Something bothered me about the original 'deal'...
"Trade in your current edition Warhammer 40K or Warhammer Fantasy rulebook and you take 40% off a starter box or rulebook for Warmachine or Hordes. We've done this with role-playing before, notably D&D and Pathfinder, so we know there are likely a bunch of rulebooks gathering dust and the need for excuses to start a new game. Let this be your excuse."
Can I say this is an insulting scam to valued customers? So for me trading in a current edition rulebook, I can get 20$ off a 50$ Starter? Wow, I give you a 50-75$ item and 30$ of my hard earned money for a 50$ product. What a value.
You mean a 40k rulebook which easily sells for 50$ hardback or 25$ paperback on eBay? So we really thing this store owner is going to take these items and burn them in an oil drum in an alley? Many Stores have internet sales and ebay stores or have 'people' who are related to the store who sells odd lots online already. This is not a DEAL for customers in any capacity as he is potentially able to functionally sell the warmachine boxed set for 75$ with this 'deal' when all is said and done.
If he was really looking out for his customers and wanted to promote change, he should offer the going ebay price of those books and say "I will do the legwork for you to sell them and give you the equivalent discount". This is not at all a deal to customers in the grand scheme of things... which makes this temper tantrum even more unreasonable as anyone who knows the value of items should have a similar reaction.
nkelsch wrote: Can I say this is an insulting scam to valued customers? So for me trading in a current edition rulebook, I can get 20$ off a 50$ Starter set?
$20 for a second hand rulebook seems like a reasonable price to me... It's not much less than I would expect to get if I sold it on eBay, and you're never going to get as much for a trade-in (for any product) as it is actually worth, since the store still needs to make a profit when they sell it on.
Considering 'second hand' books which are less than a year old are often in 'like-new' condition, they are selling pretty well on ebay. It isn't like it is an out of date edition.
nkelsch wrote: Considering 'second hand' books which are less than a year old are often in 'like-new' condition, they are selling pretty well on ebay. It isn't like it is an out of date edition.
It doesn't seem at all like a deal to me.
Take some stuff to a pawnbroker some time and see how much you get for it compared to how much they charge for it.
Again, you'll never get as much for a trade-in as you will selling it yourself. That's just how the second-hand market works.
not as much as when you'd sell it yourself - but that's reasonable, the guy providing a convenient service selling it for you wants a chunk of the proceeds too. only reasonable
insaniak wrote: And if you have to go to GW to buy the book anyway, how many of those flyer kits and upsell items will be purcashed from GW instead of from the FLGS?.
If someone is foolish enough to pay regular retail on the flyer kits and up sell items (Really? People still buy GW glue and brushes?) then they probably have no FLGS aside from a GW store and are unfathomably ignorant of discount websites. If those people actually exist, then FLGSs have more to worry about then a "direct only" book.
Polonius wrote: Is it just me, or would a classier approach to this would have been the store telling everybody not to bother buying it, because there will be a store copy available at all times, including tournaments, so nobody need buy their own?
nkelsch wrote: Considering 'second hand' books which are less than a year old are often in 'like-new' condition, they are selling pretty well on ebay. It isn't like it is an out of date edition.
It doesn't seem at all like a deal to me.
Take some stuff to a pawnbroker some time and see how much you get for it compared to how much they charge for it.
Again, you'll never get as much for a trade-in as you will selling it yourself. That's just how the second-hand market works.
oh, I know exactly how not doing the legwork yourself works... Every time an item changes hands to the final destination you should expect a 50% cut in cost. So if I sell to you, and you sell to the final owner. I should expect about 50% of what you plan to sell it for so you get your cut.
The issue is this store owner is not a pawn broker or an ebay auction place who is doing this for his primary business. This is a store owner trying to convert a customerbase to another system so he can stay in business as he has a customer-impacting feud with a distributor in an unprofessional way. If he was interested in helping convert customers, and is serious about basically 'destroying' his 40k customerbase, then I feel like he shouldn't be looking to profit off a trade-in program. I would say run it at cost or a loss so it was actually a discount. If he is selling hardback 40k rulebooks for 25$ and giving people 40% discounts of 50$ boxes, he is still profiting. If he was actually serious about converting, he should give people actual discounts out of his pocket in order to take responsibility of his feud with GW if he was serious about it.
I don't feel it is a deal at all. It doesn't add up and combined with the rest of the situation doesn't seem at all appealing to me.
It's never good when we customers are included into a Biz fight night, not because stores and GW shouldn't throw their jabs to defend their corners but because I opt to choose who and when to fight.
The same way I ignore GW attempts to control my Hobby choices I would also ignore this store for the same reason.
Personally I think it's a bad move for everyone involved and I wonder if calling a legal product contraband is not problematic.
NELS1031 wrote: If someone is foolish enough to pay regular retail on the flyer kits and up sell items (Really? People still buy GW glue and brushes?) then they probably have no FLGS aside from a GW store and are unfathomably ignorant of discount websites. If those people actually exist, then FLGSs have more to worry about then a "direct only" book.
If those people didn't exist, there wouldn't be any GW stores...
NELS1031 wrote: If someone is foolish enough to pay regular retail on the flyer kits and up sell items (Really? People still buy GW glue and brushes?) then they probably have no FLGS aside from a GW store and are unfathomably ignorant of discount websites. If those people actually exist, then FLGSs have more to worry about then a "direct only" book.
If those people didn't exist, there wouldn't be any GW stores...
Stores already have to deal with competing directly with the online discounters for customers.. they don't need to be undermined by the manufacturers as well.
It's hard not to put consumers in the middle ground, since we are the sales. The store owners are offering to help move players over to another game system, but are discouraged from working with GW. They aren't turning customers away at the door, while GW are turning customers actively from the door of the LGS to pull more traffic to their online store.
The stores involve us in the same way that if we boycott GW products, we'd be involving our FLGS. To send a message you have to impact sales, through boycott or switching games.
But I find it really odd that people are getting upset at the small game stores for trying to stand up, when we just had an excellent example earlier in the month of GW trying to crush the little guy (Woman in this particular instance). It's not an issue of them using us as a weapon, but merely the store owners trying to tell GW that they are not going to cater to them and they are establishing their own ground rules and encouraging people to trade in 40K for something else. I've never been to one, but doesn't the stores run by GW refuse third party models or something that's excessively converted?
Marrak wrote: Okay, we all agree that it's a jerk move of GW to charge for something previously put through White Dwarf... but honestly, there -are- other ways to get copies, and if you had previous versions of the rules, you can look on your FAQ to see what's changed. The only ones who actively have to worry on this matter, from what I've seen from perusing the FAQs, is BT and SM do not have a point of reference for how much the ST and SR will cost them, hence they'd need the external aid.
No, this is actually incorrect. I bought the White Dwarf with the Ork Flyers in it, because I liked the models. I bought three Ork Flyers, because I liked the models. I bought Crusade of Fire, because I thought Dogfights would be a fun 'side game' to run at conventions/tournaments (come over and pick out a plane and dogfight it out...).
Now, the FAQ tells me the rules for my flyers are in a new supplement. A supplement that repeats other material that I've already bought. There's nothing in my FAQ to tell me how they work at all, whatsoever.
It doesn't just totally irritate me that GW now wants me to go buy ANOTHER supplement. That's a MINOR irritation at this point. Here's what really chaps my @$$:
I'm a GW Fanboy. I'm HAPPY going out and buying some new rulebook with shiny new pictures and sparkly new rules. I will go out and buy stuff like "Crusade of Fire" for the novelty of it. Now GW is putting out stuff I need to buy to use their rules, but it isn't even new stuff. Let me buy new stuff from GW (not limited edition, sold out immediately rulebooks). Don't make me buy rehashed reprinted crap just to get a smidgen of new stuff.
I jumped through GW's marketing hoops. I bought the White Dwarf, sight unseen, because the new Ork Flyers looked cool. I bought the flyers (three at once), before even trying one out in game, because they looked cool. I bought Crusade of Fire, because it looked cool. Now GW want me to buy stuff that just rehashes stuff I already own, so that I have theiri permission to use their rules with the models I paid them for? GW is not punishing pirates or resellers; GW is actively punishing actual fans.
Steps like this make it much more likely that people will pirate GW's rules. Why pay GW for rules that they will change, and then charge you again to get? Why buy something from them if they invalidate it and make it necessary to buy it again? This isn't a system-wide reboot like a new edition, or even an army-wide reboot like a new Codex. GW wants you to buy something for three units in your army (in my case).
Steps like this make it much more likely that people will just start ignoring GW rules and playing with their own rulesets, or another company's ruleset, or an older edition of the rules. Seen what happened to D&D? You've got people playing 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3.5, 4, etc. You've got people deciding that they don't need to spend any more money on a company's new products when they can still enjoy the old ones. And once people decide they don't need to buy new rules from GW, they will realize they don't need to buy new models from GW, either. If they aren't playing a GW-sanctioned game, they don't need to follow GW guidelines, and they can buy their orks wherever they want, and their vehicles wherever they want. That might be good for the players, and good for wargaming, but it's not going to be good for GW.
Dumb decisions like this make it much less likely that people will continue to support GW financially. Despite all the crap that they pull, there are a LOT of good people producing good stuff at GW. Those poor people aren't the tools making these dumb decisions. I LOVED the rules for the Ork planes (crashing into the target--awesome!). I LOVED the ork planes. Such great models, with so much character, and so many options and extras. I WANT to give the person who make that stuff money. I WANT that person to keep making stuff. But do I want to support them enough to support the spanker who pulled this stunt?
GW is actively hindering the player with their ruleset at this point. They should be making it easy to spend money on new models for your army. Instead, they keep throwing up barriers. Want to buy that Ork plane and play with it? Well, buy this magazine. Ooops. Sold out. Buy a iPad and buy this download. Oh, that's too expensive? Buy a $33 book full of stuff for other armies and reprinted from other books. If someone wants to buy and play with GW toys, GW should be finding a way to make that happen, not hampering it.
It's ridiculously old-school. While other game companies are actively selling PDF rulesets, GW is trying to make people jump through these hoops. If, as Jervis says in the latest White Dwarf, GW is fundamentally a collectible miniature company, why are they trying so hard to make money selling more rules? Look at Pathfinder for example. Every rule book is available in a PDF (even ones which have gone out of print physically). Those PDFs are updated regularly. It's a PDF, not some digital format proprietary to some particular company (heck, the PDF is even available in different formats if you are using different readers for it). It isn't burdened down with loads of DRM. The PDF has your name and email watermarked on it, so if you give it out, everybody knows who did it. Other than that? Put your PDF on whatever device you want to use it on. If the rulebook is part of their core rules (a nebulous concept, but still...), the PDF is TEN DOLLARS, regardless of the cost of the physical book. These are $50 rulebooks, but Paizo sells the PDF for $10! Why? To get people to PLAY THEIR GAME. They make their money ON books, and even they get this. Let people who want to play your damn game play your damn game. That's where the money is made.
I love so much of the GW universe, design, and game. I love people like Jes Godwin, John Blanche, and Phil Kelly. Despite his innumerable wrongheaded sermons, Jervis has made stuff I loved, and still love. I want these people to keep GW alive. I don't want $33 dollar supplemental rulebooks that invalidate the FAQ, cover only a few units from each army, aren't available except from GW direct, and rehash rules from another rulebook. I want GW to stop trying to put GW out of business.
I was at my LFGS today and the owner, although not going through his normal GW distributor, showed me that he could in fact order the book at $21 + S&H directly from GW's site. I don't know if that's because he has some discount or the likes, or what it means for other stores tbh :/
Sidenote: He tries very hard to get new people interested into the hobby, and has always been a stalwart defender of their product line for many years. For the first time today... I saw him NOT excited for a new GW release
I wanted to buy to book today but when I heard the book was only available online I was piss off even the GW store manager was piss off. But I got a good option. The pdf will be available someday and I will download it. I
Marrak wrote: Okay, we all agree that it's a jerk move of GW to charge for something previously put through White Dwarf... but honestly, there -are- other ways to get copies, and if you had previous versions of the rules, you can look on your FAQ to see what's changed. The only ones who actively have to worry on this matter, from what I've seen from perusing the FAQs, is BT and SM do not have a point of reference for how much the ST and SR will cost them, hence they'd need the external aid.
No, this is actually incorrect. I bought the White Dwarf with the Ork Flyers in it, because I liked the models. I bought three Ork Flyers, because I liked the models. I bought Crusade of Fire, because I thought Dogfights would be a fun 'side game' to run at conventions/tournaments (come over and pick out a plane and dogfight it out...).
Now, the FAQ tells me the rules for my flyers are in a new supplement. A supplement that repeats other material that I've already bought. There's nothing in my FAQ to tell me how they work at all, whatsoever.
It doesn't just totally irritate me that GW now wants me to go buy ANOTHER supplement. That's a MINOR irritation at this point. Here's what really chaps my @$$:
I'm a GW Fanboy. I'm HAPPY going out and buying some new rulebook with shiny new pictures and sparkly new rules. I will go out and buy stuff like "Crusade of Fire" for the novelty of it. Now GW is putting out stuff I need to buy to use their rules, but it isn't even new stuff. Let me buy new stuff from GW (not limited edition, sold out immediately rulebooks). Don't make me buy rehashed reprinted crap just to get a smidgen of new stuff.
I jumped through GW's marketing hoops. I bought the White Dwarf, sight unseen, because the new Ork Flyers looked cool. I bought the flyers (three at once), before even trying one out in game, because they looked cool. I bought Crusade of Fire, because it looked cool. Now GW want me to buy stuff that just rehashes stuff I already own, so that I have theiri permission to use their rules with the models I paid them for? GW is not punishing pirates or resellers; GW is actively punishing actual fans.
Steps like this make it much more likely that people will pirate GW's rules. Why pay GW for rules that they will change, and then charge you again to get? Why buy something from them if they invalidate it and make it necessary to buy it again? This isn't a system-wide reboot like a new edition, or even an army-wide reboot like a new Codex. GW wants you to buy something for three units in your army (in my case).
Steps like this make it much more likely that people will just start ignoring GW rules and playing with their own rulesets, or another company's ruleset, or an older edition of the rules. Seen what happened to D&D? You've got people playing 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3.5, 4, etc. You've got people deciding that they don't need to spend any more money on a company's new products when they can still enjoy the old ones. And once people decide they don't need to buy new rules from GW, they will realize they don't need to buy new models from GW, either. If they aren't playing a GW-sanctioned game, they don't need to follow GW guidelines, and they can buy their orks wherever they want, and their vehicles wherever they want. That might be good for the players, and good for wargaming, but it's not going to be good for GW.
Dumb decisions like this make it much less likely that people will continue to support GW financially. Despite all the crap that they pull, there are a LOT of good people producing good stuff at GW. Those poor people aren't the tools making these dumb decisions. I LOVED the rules for the Ork planes (crashing into the target--awesome!). I LOVED the ork planes. Such great models, with so much character, and so many options and extras. I WANT to give the person who make that stuff money. I WANT that person to keep making stuff. But do I want to support them enough to support the spanker who pulled this stunt?
GW is actively hindering the player with their ruleset at this point. They should be making it easy to spend money on new models for your army. Instead, they keep throwing up barriers. Want to buy that Ork plane and play with it? Well, buy this magazine. Ooops. Sold out. Buy a iPad and buy this download. Oh, that's too expensive? Buy a $33 book full of stuff for other armies and reprinted from other books. If someone wants to buy and play with GW toys, GW should be finding a way to make that happen, not hampering it.
It's ridiculously old-school. While other game companies are actively selling PDF rulesets, GW is trying to make people jump through these hoops. If, as Jervis says in the latest White Dwarf, GW is fundamentally a collectible miniature company, why are they trying so hard to make money selling more rules? Look at Pathfinder for example. Every rule book is available in a PDF (even ones which have gone out of print physically). Those PDFs are updated regularly. It's a PDF, not some digital format proprietary to some particular company (heck, the PDF is even available in different formats if you are using different readers for it). It isn't burdened down with loads of DRM. The PDF has your name and email watermarked on it, so if you give it out, everybody knows who did it. Other than that? Put your PDF on whatever device you want to use it on. If the rulebook is part of their core rules (a nebulous concept, but still...), the PDF is TEN DOLLARS, regardless of the cost of the physical book. These are $50 rulebooks, but Paizo sells the PDF for $10! Why? To get people to PLAY THEIR GAME. They make their money ON books, and even they get this. Let people who want to play your damn game play your damn game. That's where the money is made.
I love so much of the GW universe, design, and game. I love people like Jes Godwin, John Blanche, and Phil Kelly. Despite his innumerable wrongheaded sermons, Jervis has made stuff I loved, and still love. I want these people to keep GW alive. I don't want $33 dollar supplemental rulebooks that invalidate the FAQ, cover only a few units from each army, aren't available except from GW direct, and rehash rules from another rulebook. I want GW to stop trying to put GW out of business
.
I agree 100%. I do complain loudly about GW policies, and always have, but I supported them up until they drove me all the way out the door.
Necros wrote: I haven't been following any of the drama lately.. why are they banning in the first place?
Just the facts:
-Collection of flier errata'd rules and updated rules only available in this book, not a must have unless you're orks, space marines or templar, the rest is FAQ released
-GW website only
-English only
Long story short it alienates a good portion of people and retailers, while forcing you to use GWs website without the possibility of discount.
hellpato wrote: I wanted to buy to book today but when I heard the book was only available online I was piss off even the GW store manager was piss off. But I got a good option. The pdf will be available someday and I will download it. I
Um, every GW store has an Internet kiosk where they can order 'ship to store' and then their store gets the 'sale' for it. Also, GW stores are taking Pre-orders so they are perfectly able to pre-order them, today. They are even advertising it on Facebook pages as the local stores can have you order via store. .
If you make up impossible scenarios like buying a book 'today' which isn't released yet to justify piracy, no company will ever be able to justify a purchase since you will find impossible reasons to get thier product for free.
Sidenote: He tries very hard to get new people interested into the hobby, and has always been a stalwart defender of their product line for many years. For the first time today... I saw him NOT excited for a new GW release
Because he is looking at this new release and imagining what would happen to his store if this GW policy spreads to more GW products. I bet it's a scary scenario.
hellpato wrote: I wanted to buy to book today but when I heard the book was only available online I was piss off even the GW store manager was piss off. But I got a good option. The pdf will be available someday and I will download it. I
Um, every GW store has an Internet kiosk where they can order 'ship to store' and then their store gets the 'sale' for it. Also, GW stores are taking Pre-orders so they are perfectly able to pre-order them, today. They are even advertising it on Facebook pages as the local stores can have you order via store. .
If you make up impossible scenarios like buying a book 'today' which isn't released yet to justify piracy, no company will ever be able to justify a purchase since you will find impossible reasons to get thier product for free.
Grimtuff wrote: From what I gather after timetowaste85 so graciously posted something that should have been in the OP (thankyou ) said book is not able to be purchased by independents and can olny be bought from the GW website and/or stores.
Surely this isn't the first time retailers have been unable to order something from GW? Why the outrage with this?
Plus it seems a little suspect that both the quoted retailers suddenly go "But Warmachine y'all!!! Buy that!!!".
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Good Lord, when Mikhaila from Showcase is telling you how crappy it's become, it means ITS. BECOME. CRAPPY.
But Kingsley is the Uber-Kan. He's drunk so much Kool-Aid that it has replaced his blood. His knight's armour is so white that it absorbs all other colours. It's no longer a case of "GW can do no wrong" in his eyes, it's a case of "GW is the only one who can do right".
Presumably because the other stuff, people haven't really cared about.
A bunch of finecast characters - "I don't wanna buy them anyway, I'll just have to return them."
Psychic power cards - "I can remember two names"
Mysterious objective dice - "I don't play with them anyway"
Vehicle Markers - "I can stick a dice on things without GW's help."
Crusade of Fire - "It looks rubbish anyways"
This is the first real example of something that could be seen as necessary (rightly or wrongly) for a great many players being made direct only. And it's probably only the beginning.
Kanluwen wrote: Things like "Death from the Skies" strike me as more a "club purchase" at this point rather than an "individual purchase".
That's irrelevant. Not everyone plays in clubs. Hell, I'd hazard that most people don't and that most people play with a group of friends. In any case, it's a core rules update only available from one location, required for play. Just because you want to attribute some made up title to it ("club purchase") doesn't change that.
Compel wrote: This is the first real example of something that could be seen as necessary (rightly or wrongly) for a great many players being made direct only. And it's probably only the beginning.
From what my local GW said it's apparently not going to be on their shelves either, it's a web only item no different than many of the metal miniatures that are currently webstore only. It's quite possible GW has no interest in printing and more importantly storing as many copies as they would need to in their warehouse for it to be on the shelves of independants and corporate stores alike and are keeping them all centralized through the warehouse to keep costs down.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: Aren't direct order items still orderable by independent stores, just at not as good a discount?
People have seemed to post that in this thread, but honestly I don't trust any posters in regards to what FLGS can or can't do outside of Reecius and mikhaila.
It sounds like up until release they dicked them around with not confirming the products existed. I assume if something changes and they have access to this in any form, they will tell us. The screw job is if the FLGS do eventually get access, I assume there is a large retail 'rush' of purchasing when a product is immediately released so the market will be drained by time they can potentially enter it.
Compel wrote: This is the first real example of something that could be seen as necessary (rightly or wrongly) for a great many players being made direct only. And it's probably only the beginning.
Fair enough then.
Yes, what he said, HBMC. I actually do need the rules in that book to field part of my ork army (the flying bit... apparently fliers are quite important in 6th...). So this significantly differs from the planetstrikes and other add-ons, that's what the store managers were saying in the protesting messages, this is an intrinsic rule that I now have to pay extra for.
It was a grabbing and mean spirited action by GW. It will be met in kind by me...
nkelsch wrote: Something bothered me about the original 'deal'...
"Trade in your current edition Warhammer 40K or Warhammer Fantasy rulebook and you take 40% off a starter box or rulebook for Warmachine or Hordes. We've done this with role-playing before, notably D&D and Pathfinder, so we know there are likely a bunch of rulebooks gathering dust and the need for excuses to start a new game. Let this be your excuse."
Can I say this is an insulting scam to valued customers? So for me trading in a current edition rulebook, I can get 20$ off a 50$ Starter? Wow, I give you a 50-75$ item and 30$ of my hard earned money for a 50$ product. What a value.
You mean a 40k rulebook which easily sells for 50$ hardback or 25$ paperback on eBay? So we really thing this store owner is going to take these items and burn them in an oil drum in an alley? Many Stores have internet sales and ebay stores or have 'people' who are related to the store who sells odd lots online already. This is not a DEAL for customers in any capacity as he is potentially able to functionally sell the warmachine boxed set for 75$ with this 'deal' when all is said and done.
If he was really looking out for his customers and wanted to promote change, he should offer the going ebay price of those books and say "I will do the legwork for you to sell them and give you the equivalent discount". This is not at all a deal to customers in the grand scheme of things... which makes this temper tantrum even more unreasonable as anyone who knows the value of items should have a similar reaction.
I go to this store, It is vehemently Pro-PP and Anti-Gw. They regularly let PP games played on nights of other games, but wont allow 40k played on anything other then our days or other games. This store doesn't care about you if you don't play a game one of their employees plays.
tvih wrote: Fact of the matter is, at the end of the day there's no "direct only." At least it seems so in Europe. Because our FLGS is able to order "direct only" products from GW just fine, at the regular dealer discount. It does require keeping a larger stock than usual perhaps (terms of the agreement and whatnot), but it most certainly can be done.
In the US, Mikhalia here on dakka owns two stores I believe and has posted that "direct" only items come with a much smaller discount from GW to retailers resulting in less profit for the same work and with an uglier generic box for the minis.
That's what my store says as well. They have a standing policy that if I have to order anything because they don't have it in stock, I'll get a 10% discount. Unless it's GW Direct, because then they'd actually be losing money on the items.
I go to this store, It is vehemently Pro-PP and Anti-Gw. They regularly let PP games played on nights of other games, but wont allow 40k played on anything other then our days or other games. This store doesn't care about you if you don't play a game one of their employees plays.
Well if he can maintain his business at the expense of his GW-playing customers... more power to him. If I feel unwelcome or feel like the store is being rude to me, I am not going to stick around. A feud with GW distributor is not your customer's concern necessarily. It doesn't seem wise.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: Aren't direct order items still orderable by independent stores, just at not as good a discount?
Sisters of Battle are direct only, right? As are tank accessory sprues? I ordered both recently via my (non-GW) LGS. I assume that this book can be ordered as well. I don't see what's the fuss about.
Crimson wrote: Sisters of Battle are direct only, right? As are tank accessory sprues? I ordered both recently via my (non-GW) LGS. I assume that this book can be ordered as well. I don't see what's the fuss about.
You obviously missed this at the start of the thread:
mikhaila wrote: I find it less than thrilling. I had customers asking for the book this week. I spent a couple of hours on the phone with people at GW US, trying for anything. Don't care if I'm not getting it, just please tell me what to tell my customers. They all lied. Pretending they didn't know.
Mikhaila is a store owner. He couldn't get this book.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: Aren't direct order items still orderable by independent stores, just at not as good a discount?
Sisters of Battle are direct only, right? As are tank accessory sprues? I ordered both recently via my (non-GW) LGS. I assume that this book can be ordered as well. I don't see what's the fuss about.
The margin of profit is almost non-existant. Plus, the amount of time it takes for the LGS to get it will usually be longer because their suppliers won't have it in stock either. This isn't a niche item that only a few will want, it's something that most people (sans-Eldar/Tau players) will technically need now. So it's a large amount of money that the stores are going to be missing out on. The store has little insentive to try to stock the item because their profits will be negligible, and the customer will just get the item quicker ordering directly from GW anyways.
Doing it this way was a blatant FU from GW to the LGS in my opinion.
You obviously missed this at the start of the thread:
mikhaila wrote: I find it less than thrilling. I had customers asking for the book this week. I spent a couple of hours on the phone with people at GW US, trying for anything. Don't care if I'm not getting it, just please tell me what to tell my customers. They all lied. Pretending they didn't know.
Mikhaila is a store owner. He couldn't get this book.
Did he ask for it before it was officially available?
(And yes, I agree that this is annoying, but really nothing that would warrant the tactics described in OP.)
If they're trying to help me, they're failing. They're trying to convince me to play a different system, which is not the role of a store. Unfortunately, I have no faith in a store that would sell out a system once. Who is to say they won't end up pulling the same trick against Warmahordes when they next put out a release that the community doesn't like? Fundamentally a store that is willing to sell out a system and stop supporting its customers once has lost its trust with me, and given the easy and appealing "20-30% discounted online store" option such stores will never have my business.
It's not a happy situation. There is no "up side" for retailers. There is little we can do in the face of Games Workshop shenanigans. Our customer bases have eroded, sales fallen as all but the hardcore players have jumped ship in the wake of insanely high prices, anemic releases, and a black out marketing strategy. At a certain point we have to just say NO. Does it make sense that we draw the line in the sand here? I think so. They've made a concerted effort to release a major rules update (or it's completely insignificant, you tell me) by bypassing retailers. I thought it was an empty gesture this morning, but clearly people feel this is a critical rules release, which makes the stand that much more important.
As for what will the dangerous retailer do next, what kind of power do you think we have? We can carry a game or not carry a game. We can run events or not run events. That's about it. We do this through the grace of our customers, who we acknowledge are doing us a favor by spending their hard earned money with us. Again, there is no up side to this, but Games Workshop continues to push us into a corner.
Honestly, at my store this issue effects about 12 people. However, the perception of hostile action is so strong that people hours away declare their intent to boycott. So I ask, is there anything that this company will do to make you lose your loyalty? Must you condemn others for taking a stand, even as you bend over, and close your eyes?
Gary L. Ray Black Diamond Games, Ltd. 1950 Market Street, Suite E Concord, CA 94520
You obviously missed this at the start of the thread:
mikhaila wrote: I find it less than thrilling. I had customers asking for the book this week. I spent a couple of hours on the phone with people at GW US, trying for anything. Don't care if I'm not getting it, just please tell me what to tell my customers. They all lied. Pretending they didn't know.
Mikhaila is a store owner. He couldn't get this book.
Did he ask for it before it was officially available?
(And yes, I agree that this is annoying, but really nothing that would warrant the tactics described in OP.)
Unless I misunderstood it, they were told nothing until it was released.
Crimson wrote: Did he ask for it before it was officially available?
Given that he says he was asking about it this week, I would assume he was, yes. Ordering something before the release date so that you have it for the release date is how things generally work in the retail industry.
(And yes, I agree that this is annoying, but really nothing that would warrant the tactics described in OP.)
One of my major suppliers lying to me about new releases, and as a result potentially damaging my relationship with my customers if I take those lies at face value and thus wind up giving them incorrect information is certainly something that I would see as every reason to cut ties with that supplier and move on to someone who still believes in customer service, frankly.
There are essentially three Games Workshop product categories (these are my category names):
General. Stuff that retailers can order, with a subset required depending on your agreement. This stuff gets a discount of around 45%.
Direct. These are things we can order for customers, or if there's demand, we can stock them ourselves. It might include what's left of their metal minis or special bases. The discount is 35%, so you don't generally want to stock these.
Direct Customer Only. These items are direct, but retailers are not solicited and the items are not available at a discount. There is not a lot of this stuff, but they're increasing. To put a rulebook in this category is unconscionable.
So: We're solicited and encouraged to order new General stuff. We're solicited and encouraged not to order Direct stuff. We're not told anything about the Direct Customer Only.
Gary L. Ray
Black Diamond Games, Ltd.
1950 Market Street, Suite E
Concord, CA 94520
Thanks for clearing that up. I don't think most people (including myself) were aware of the two different direct categories which led to some confusion in the thread.
I think starting the process of transitioning away from GW after they release a rulebook Direct Customer Only is probably a good idea.
They want you to sell the plastic kits, but not the rules for those kits, so that everyone who buys one will then become not your customer, but a customer of the GW Online store. It's direct competition with you, who is supposed to be their partner.
Diversifying away from GW after such a stunt is probably pretty smart.
So: We're solicited and encouraged to order new General stuff. We're solicited and encouraged not to order Direct stuff. We're not told anything about the Direct Customer Only.
So can you confirm this book is the second or third type?
I can see why stores who have chosen to give 20% discount are freaking out, but that sounds like store decision. I have never minded paying full MSRP to FLGSs and don't really expect discounts from people who provide me rent-free gaming space or run good events.
They are changing strategy and it looks like they intend to use or abuse Indy stores in this new direction as gateway/introduction sources only and then control the further purchasing and reap the profit directly.
Whilst it's probably not a good idea to ditch their stock entirely, indy stores should be looking to cushion any further potential stilettos to the back with promotion of and increased emphasis on friendlier and more flexible lines with less inclination to trip them down the stairs and take their cash.
Grimtuff wrote: From what I gather after timetowaste85 so graciously posted something that should have been in the OP (thankyou ) said book is not able to be purchased by independents and can olny be bought from the GW website and/or stores.
Surely this isn't the first time retailers have been unable to order something from GW? Why the outrage with this?
Plus it seems a little suspect that both the quoted retailers suddenly go "But Warmachine y'all!!! Buy that!!!".
I collect Data from various areas within the US (mostly where I have my holdings). I can give you some some generalized information concerning the health of the hobby (GW in particular) around Black Diamond Games. It is one of my Data hubs that I use. I do the data collection because I really want to know what sells at the retail level (and yes I do tend to talk to distributors as well) in their own words. if I ever want to use some of my IP's once again and make a game or two I need that kind of information to make a product (or product line) a viable one. And if the data collected tells me otherwise well I'll just buy more property and continue to play in those friendly areas that support my hobbies with my plastic man dolls. The idea has come to my head about investing/buying into a small game company, but we shall see as I am getting to damned old to start another business venture
Black Diamond Games
The game store is well ran. Very clean and is well stocked with different venues of games. The employees working at BD are friendly, knowledgeable in what they sell in their store. They cater to a wide spectrum of customers. They know what sells currently and are able to keep a view on what is trendy and loyal customer satisfaction. I enjoy having my conversations at that store talking to the customers, employees, and owner respectively.
At one time the GW influence in that area was strong with 5 GW stores within a 40 mile radius, however from the data I have collected in that region that customer base was in the serious decline starting at 2010. This also coincide with the rapid price increases, revenue streamlining processes that have been posted here on this site previously. When GW of Alamo (a site where the average median household is $174000 per year and the average home in that store area goes for 1 mil, there is plenty of money to buy man toys) closed in 2012, that was a telling indicator on just how much of a decline there is in that area and IMHOGW as a whole. Oversaturation of product? Probably, but again from data collected, the other major indicator is GW PR (the lack there of) as well as the disinformation/lack of information they are well known to give.
Nature Abhors a vacuum, and something has got to give so WM/H has taken 40K's place.
If they would have treated Indie stores better and actually supported them there would be no discussion on this topic.
@Black Diamond Games
It took me so long to type up my posting (arthritic hands) that I did not even noticed that you are in here. Good to see you here at this site.
So: We're solicited and encouraged to order new General stuff. We're solicited and encouraged not to order Direct stuff. We're not told anything about the Direct Customer Only.
So can you confirm this book is the second or third type?
I can see why stores who have chosen to give 20% discount are freaking out, but that sounds like store decision. I have never minded paying full MSRP to FLGSs and don't really expect discounts from people who provide me rent-free gaming space or run good events.
We were not solicited for this book, and like Showcase, we learned about it from customers without any information presented to us by Games Workshop. This is no accident, this book is not available to us.
Here's generally how our store is likely to disengage: GW events in store get canceled or curtailed (this certainly drove those people away from us). This means we no longer need GW prize support. That means we no longer need to put up with the indignities (LOTR, crappy fantasy sales) of being a partner store to get that support. Once we're not a partner store, it means we likely cut back our inventory to a core level of 40K stuff. At that point, we'll be eying the wall for Privateer Press expansion. I avoided GW the first two years I owned a store because they were jackasses, then they reformed. Now they're jackasses again.
Really though, nobody wants to do this. What we would like to see is Games Workshop get their act together and start supporting us and their game. They have this ridiculous cycle they have to go through in which they squeeze everyone to maximize shareholder value, and then as that value begins to slip, they lessen the grasp and start to address problems. Where did I learn this? My GW rep. This Jekyll and Hyde act has been going on for a decades and they should really knock it off.
So: We're solicited and encouraged to order new General stuff. We're solicited and encouraged not to order Direct stuff. We're not told anything about the Direct Customer Only.
So can you confirm this book is the second or third type?
I can see why stores who have chosen to give 20% discount are freaking out, but that sounds like store decision. I have never minded paying full MSRP to FLGSs and don't really expect discounts from people who provide me rent-free gaming space or run good events.
We were not solicited for this book, and like Showcase, we learned about it from customers without any information presented to us by Games Workshop. This is no accident, this book is not available to us.
Here's generally how our store is likely to disengage: GW events in store get canceled or curtailed (this certainly drove those people away from us). This means we no longer need GW prize support. That means we no longer need to put up with the indignities (LOTR, crappy fantasy sales) of being a partner store to get that support. Once we're not a partner store, it means we likely cut back our inventory to a core level of 40K stuff. At that point, we'll be eying the wall for Privateer Press expansion. I avoided GW the first two years I owned a store because they were jackasses, then they reformed. Now they're jackasses again.
Really though, nobody wants to do this. What we would like to see is Games Workshop get their act together and start supporting us and their game. They have this ridiculous cycle they have to go through in which they squeeze everyone to maximize shareholder value, and then as that value begins to slip, they lessen the grasp and start to address problems. Where did I learn this? My GW rep. This Jekyll and Hyde act has been going on for a decades and they should really knock it off.
FWIW (very little I imagine) I completely support your position. Retailers are the real front lines of the hobby, and if they supported you guys more there would be more reason to play.
Wait. When I read the 1st post I understood it as that these stores were banning the rules from use in their tournaments. This sounds reasonable to me. Since they can not sell the book in their store, in theory it's not easily available to the wider gaming community. Thus putting it in the same category as forge world models. It's not that most forgeworld models are over powered, it's that their rules are not as easily available to the gaming community. Thus can be unfair to use them in a tournament setting.
But are they also banning it's use from pick-up play? Because IMHO going that far would be huge turn off to me.
Lockark wrote: Wait. When I read the 1st post I understood it as that these stores were banning the rules from use in their tournaments, but are they also banning it's use from pick-up play?
That's up to individual stores. I know Pat considers the book contraband and doesn't wand to see it in his store.
I'm just saying not for organized play, which means open gaming is fine. Heck, you can play little green army men during our open gaming, if you want.
Also, easy solution to this? Move this book into another order category, even a direct sales item makes it available to stores, albeit it at a poor discount. I would lift my ban if they would throw us a bone.
Gary L. Ray
Black Diamond Games, Ltd.
1950 Market Street, Suite E
Concord, CA 94520
Lockark wrote: Wait. When I read the 1st post I understood it as that these stores were banning the rules from use in their tournaments, but are they also banning it's use from pick-up play?
That's up to individual stores. I know Pat considers the book contraband and doesn't wand to see it in his store.
I'm just saying not for organized play, which means open gaming is fine. Heck, you can play little green army men during our open gaming, if you want.
Also, easy solution to this? Move this book into another order category, even a direct sales item makes it available to stores, albeit it at a poor discount. I would lift my ban if they would throw us a bone.
But it's still the community that gets hurt. I understand your point-of-view: if you have nothing to sell (because you can't), then there won't be a storefront for people to play in anyway. It's a shame that the guy that wants to play his Black Templars again can't in those stores, however, because the rules for his models are banned. He's not going to blame GW. He's going to blame the storefront.
I would think that a better solution would be to have a Store Copy. That gives GW the finger and still allows everyone to play their army.
The game store is well ran. Very clean and is well stocked with different venues of games. The employees working at BD are friendly, knowledgeable in what they sell in their store. They cater to a wide spectrum of customers. They know what sells currently and are able to keep a view on what is trendy and loyal customer satisfaction. I enjoy having my conversations at that store talking to the customers, employees, and owner respectively.
This was the store I frequented before I moved for work and I have to agree with this. Great store.
I actually used to run the 40k events there, and they were fully supportive.
Lockark wrote: Wait. When I read the 1st post I understood it as that these stores were banning the rules from use in their tournaments, but are they also banning it's use from pick-up play?
That's up to individual stores. I know Pat considers the book contraband and doesn't wand to see it in his store.
I'm just saying not for organized play, which means open gaming is fine. Heck, you can play little green army men during our open gaming, if you want.
Also, easy solution to this? Move this book into another order category, even a direct sales item makes it available to stores, albeit it at a poor discount. I would lift my ban if they would throw us a bone.
Gary L. Ray
Black Diamond Games, Ltd.
1950 Market Street, Suite E
Concord, CA 94520
I just updated my post to explain my view of this abit more clear.
IMHO due to these rules being direct only I consider them on par with a forgeworld expansion. Thus reasonable to say they are not for use in Tournament play. Any larger tournament that does not allow forgeworld rules IMHO should also ban these rules from use in their tournaments.
But I feel banning the book from the store completely is a pretty big turn off. People should still be allowed to use it in friendly pick up games if they wish as you would a forgeworld book.
I'm just saying not for organized play, which means open gaming is fine. Heck, you can play little green army men during our open gaming, if you want.
Also, easy solution to this? Move this book into another order category, even a direct sales item makes it available to stores, albeit it at a poor discount. I would lift my ban if they would throw us a bone.
But you are making your customers hostages with your actions which seems rude and would turn off customers.
Do you ban Forgeworld? Do you ban Scratchbuilts? Do you ban 3rd party models you don't stock? Do you ban games or figures only available online or Kickstarters? Have you removed all FLYER inventory from your shelves? Do you ban digital codexes in store because you cannot sell them? What do you do for games who don't allow you to SELL rules because of free or e-distribution and only sell minis?
It just seems like a bad idea to continue to sell the models or having sold the models for months and then punish your customers to try to prove a point. Promote other games, stop stocking GW, but this 'ban' is unprofessional and a turn off for customers. Maybe it will work for you and your customerbase... I feel like there are better ways for you to handle this. If a Store near me said 'No Units from Death from the skies' it basically comes across to me as 'LOL BAN FLYERS ME MAD GEEDUHB!' and I am going to choose to attend a tourney at another location. I can respect a store divesting themselves of GW games and continue to shop there for other systems as long as they promote organized play for those systems. If you drag me into drama as a customer or disrespect me as a customer and degrade the 'organized play' I pay MSRP for , then me and my money go elsewhere.
But your customers may have different attitudes, being an east coast person, I don't think I have to worry about not attending your 'organized play' but it sounds like a major turn off to me.
Edit: And if this was a NEW expansion, I could totally get behind the FW optional route, which I fell is TOTALLY reasonable for not allowing rules and models not sold in store. But you can't put the genie back in the bottle on this one. People HAVE bought the models at your store. they HAVE bought the WD at your store. They HAVE been using these models and rules for months at your store. To take it away now is not the same as choosing not to EXPAND to an expansion, especially when people bought the models locally in your store. (and still can)
The game store is well ran. Very clean and is well stocked with different venues of games. The employees working at BD are friendly, knowledgeable in what they sell in their store. They cater to a wide spectrum of customers. They know what sells currently and are able to keep a view on what is trendy and loyal customer satisfaction. I enjoy having my conversations at that store talking to the customers, employees, and owner respectively.
This was the store I frequented before I moved for work and I have to agree with this. Great store.
I actually used to run the 40k events there, and they were fully supportive.
Thank you. Definitely not the nearest store for me to go to as well, but It is so nice when people, the players, the employees take their time in helping out an old man like myself to learn a new game. But you know I also go there for their puzzles and puzzle type games as that is what my sweety likes to do. They also got my sweety interested in trying her hand in other types of board games. Again a top notch place if you are in that area.
Do you ban Forgeworld? Do you ban Scratchbuilts? Do you ban 3rd party models you don't stock? Do you ban games or figures only available online or Kickstarters? Have you removed all FLYER inventory from your shelves? Do you ban digital codexes in store because you cannot sell them? What do you do for games who don't allow you to SELL rules because of free or e-distribution and only sell minis?
As far as I can tell, none of that criteria fits into this scenario.
"But you are making your customers hostages with your actions which seems rude and would turn off customers."
I can certainly see that now.
This is something that seemed like a minor thing, like banning a Forge World book. Now it seems to have a significance that wasn't fully understood (mostly because GW kept it a secret from us). The last thing I would want is to offend our customers, which it seems I've done tremendously well today. It would have been better to have simply dropped all 40K events or made an inventory decision, not that I plan to do those things yet. That's a more traditional retail way of solving problems with suppliers. I would certainly like to walk this one back, but I also see it as a direct attack from Games Workshop that can't be ignored.
Gary L. Ray Black Diamond Games, Ltd. 1950 Market Street, Suite E Concord, CA 94520
I'm just saying not for organized play, which means open gaming is fine. Heck, you can play little green army men during our open gaming, if you want.
Also, easy solution to this? Move this book into another order category, even a direct sales item makes it available to stores, albeit it at a poor discount. I would lift my ban if they would throw us a bone.
But you are making your customers hostages with your actions which seems rude and would turn off customers.
No, he's taking a stand against an unscrupulous supplier. The rest of your post doesn't apply, hobbyists with scratchbuilt or forgeworld models have not denied him a sale with those, they also remain 'the customer', his action is against 'the supplier'.
And it's his business, he's entirely free to ban the book in his store, as said earlier, due to GW shafting him and other retailers over it. They have denied the retailer the ability to sell the complete game, that's just crazy.
Also, GW themselves have banned forgeworld in some stores, also scratchbuilds. He's been patient and accommodating enough not to. Speaks volumes to me.
I can see the point of stores banning certain things from tournaments and so on but if I bring something that is an official product for a game I play and someone tells me I can't bring it in then I would part ways with that store/club.
Yes GW has an absolute terrible buisness model that only thinks in short term gain. I agree with that.
On the other hand if this is the start of stores/clubs parting ways with GW then for me personally that gives me no reason to spend money with them anymore, which forces me to go directly to GW which is what they want anyway, and when it gets to the point I refuse to spend money anymore I won't go back to one of those stores, ill just find a new hobby.
Do you ban Forgeworld? Do you ban Scratchbuilts? Do you ban 3rd party models you don't stock? Do you ban games or figures only available online or Kickstarters? Have you removed all FLYER inventory from your shelves? Do you ban digital codexes in store because you cannot sell them? What do you do for games who don't allow you to SELL rules because of free or e-distribution and only sell minis?
As far as I can tell, none of that criteria fits into this scenario.
If the core issue is allowing a ruleset the store is incapable of stocking, it is relevant. I totally understand not wanting your gaming store monopolized by non-customers using products you can't sell, but this is not as black and white as that, especially since they can still sell the actual models, and already have sold them to customers who may have the expectation of using them in store.
*He cannot stock FWs so every FW use is the result of a non sale and can't promote or drive a sale.
*scratchbuilds are another non-sale, but owners often allow them to garner good will, as long as the person is a customer in other ways.
*again, there are a ton of Internet 3rd party companies which many FLGS don't stock and sometimes can't stock, so if someone is playing with an entire army of 3rd party models, bought off the Internet, those are non sales.
*ditto with people showing up and wanting to play a game bought via KS and not locally.
*if the store still sells flyer models, if he turns around and tells them they cannot use the model just purchased in store because of a dispute with GW which the customer has no awareness of, you are going to have an annoyed customer.
*digital downloads are also a lost sale for the FLGS, so will people who don't have an instore purchased book also not allowed to use it?
If inability to stock or sell the rules is the reason for the ban. There is a lot of other things which are often allowed in stores which also need to be banned. And such bans would alienate customers which is why stores allow wiggle room as long as people are still mostly customers locally. If you want to basically declare war on your customers to get back at GW, you are not hurting GW.
Also, 40k is an unplayable joke for tourneys if you denied specific armies their flyers. Such a ban is basically telling people to go home and not come back as a tourney without those units is a waste of time for all involved. There are better solutions which are less rude to customers.
Also, GW themselves have banned forgeworld in some stores, also scratchbuilds. He's been patient and accommodating enough not to. Speaks volumes to me.
and such policies have alienated potential customers because of it. gW does it isn't a screaming endorsement.
There is a difference between losing a customer because you don't stock an item and losing a customer because you do something to cause harm to them or they feel treated poorly.
There is nothing wrong with phasing out a product because the company sucks and it is bad for your business to sell. The goal is to phase out the product while retaining as many of the customers as possible. You of course will lose some customers who are only interested in one product but most gamers have multiple interests. Losing one game system or product won't alienate them. Making a political stand which annoys or harms the customers experience on one system may cause them to leave for all your products out of their own "stand".
Do you ban Forgeworld? Do you ban Scratchbuilts? Do you ban 3rd party models you don't stock? Do you ban games or figures only available online or Kickstarters? Have you removed all FLYER inventory from your shelves? Do you ban digital codexes in store because you cannot sell them? What do you do for games who don't allow you to SELL rules because of free or e-distribution and only sell minis?
As far as I can tell, none of that criteria fits into this scenario.
If the core issue is allowing a ruleset the store is incapable of stocking, it is relevant. I totally understand not wanting your gaming store monopolized by non-customers using products you can't sell, but this is not as black and white as that, especially since they can still sell the actual models, and already have sold them to customers who may have the expectation of using them in store.
*He cannot stock FWs so every FW use is the result of a non sale and can't promote or drive a sale.
*scratchbuilds are another non-sale, but owners often allow them to garner good will, as long as the person is a customer in other ways.
*again, there are a ton of Internet 3rd party companies which many FLGS don't stock and sometimes can't stock, so if someone is playing with an entire army of 3rd party models, bought off the Internet, those are non sales.
*ditto with people showing up and wanting to play a game bought via KS and not locally.
*if the store still sells flyer models, if he turns around and tells them they cannot use the model just purchased in store because of a dispute with GW which the customer has no awareness of, you are going to have an annoyed customer.
*digital downloads are also a lost sale for the FLGS, so will people who don't have an instore purchased book also not allowed to use it?
If inability to stock or sell the rules is the reason for the ban. There is a lot of other things which are often allowed in stores which also need to be banned. And such bans would alienate customers which is why stores allow wiggle room as long as people are still mostly customers locally. If you want to basically declare war on your customers to get back at GW, you are not hurting GW.
Also, 40k is an unplayable joke for tourneys if you denied specific armies their flyers. Such a ban is basically telling people to go home and not come back as a tourney without those units is a waste of time for all involved. There are better solutions which are less rude to customers.
Your argument would hold water if these retailers had thrown a fit about direct only expansions, planetstrike, cities of death etc, this was not the case. The protest is in light of a book which contains necessary rules and is being withheld from sale, that's the problem. It's shifting the agreement entered into by the retailer and GW, it's denying a cog necessary for the machine to work, not denying a peripheral add on.
Just my 2 cents but I think the stores are doing exactly what they ought to do...protecting their own interests. From what i've heard GW is a nightmafe to deal with from a retailers perspective.
This is a major supplement and GW is doing their best to cut FLGS out of the profit stream. You don't make your partners happy by cutting them out of the profit.
ender502 wrote: Just my 2 cents but I think the stores are doing exactly what they ought to do...protecting their own interests. From what i've heard GW is a nightmafe to deal with from a retailers perspective.
This is a major supplement and GW is doing their best to cut FLGS out of the profit stream. You don't make your partners happy by cutting them out of the profit.
ender502
It's true. I've done a lot of rationalizing GW's insanity as them protecting themselves and staying in business, and it is only fair that retailers should be able to push back. Competition will lead to the best result for customers IMO.
Do you ban Forgeworld? Do you ban Scratchbuilts? Do you ban 3rd party models you don't stock? Do you ban games or figures only available online or Kickstarters? Have you removed all FLYER inventory from your shelves? Do you ban digital codexes in store because you cannot sell them? What do you do for games who don't allow you to SELL rules because of free or e-distribution and only sell minis?
As far as I can tell, none of that criteria fits into this scenario.
If the core issue is allowing a ruleset the store is incapable of stocking, it is relevant. I totally understand not wanting your gaming store monopolized by non-customers using products you can't sell, but this is not as black and white as that, especially since they can still sell the actual models, and already have sold them to customers who may have the expectation of using them in store.
*He cannot stock FWs so every FW use is the result of a non sale and can't promote or drive a sale.
*scratchbuilds are another non-sale, but owners often allow them to garner good will, as long as the person is a customer in other ways.
*again, there are a ton of Internet 3rd party companies which many FLGS don't stock and sometimes can't stock, so if someone is playing with an entire army of 3rd party models, bought off the Internet, those are non sales.
*ditto with people showing up and wanting to play a game bought via KS and not locally.
*if the store still sells flyer models, if he turns around and tells them they cannot use the model just purchased in store because of a dispute with GW which the customer has no awareness of, you are going to have an annoyed customer.
*digital downloads are also a lost sale for the FLGS, so will people who don't have an instore purchased book also not allowed to use it?
If inability to stock or sell the rules is the reason for the ban. There is a lot of other things which are often allowed in stores which also need to be banned. And such bans would alienate customers which is why stores allow wiggle room as long as people are still mostly customers locally. If you want to basically declare war on your customers to get back at GW, you are not hurting GW.
Also, 40k is an unplayable joke for tourneys if you denied specific armies their flyers. Such a ban is basically telling people to go home and not come back as a tourney without those units is a waste of time for all involved. There are better solutions which are less rude to customers.
Your argument would hold water if these retailers had thrown a fit about direct only expansions, planetstrike, cities of death etc, this was not the case. The protest is in light of a book which contains necessary rules and is being withheld from sale, that's the problem. It's shifting the agreement entered into by the retailer and GW, it's denying a cog necessary for the machine to work, not denying a peripheral add on.
.
The problem is they are protesting GW by shooting their customers, most of which will not be aware of the 'issue' at hand or simply won't care.
It is effectively a "hunger strike" which is not usually productive in a retail business.
But it is their store,if they think standing up for their principals will increase sales and convert people to other games with no backlash... Go for it. It really does come down to $ in the end.
hellpato wrote: I wanted to buy to book today but when I heard the book was only available online I was piss off even the GW store manager was piss off. But I got a good option. The pdf will be available someday and I will download it. I
Um, every GW store has an Internet kiosk where they can order 'ship to store' and then their store gets the 'sale' for it. Also, GW stores are taking Pre-orders so they are perfectly able to pre-order them, today. They are even advertising it on Facebook pages as the local stores can have you order via store. .
If you make up impossible scenarios like buying a book 'today' which isn't released yet to justify piracy, no company will ever be able to justify a purchase since you will find impossible reasons to get thier product for free.
Not all of us has a GW store.
I really don't care about piracy or not. I'm a consumer and now, before buying, I want to know what I buy. I look the GW website for the book and they show no preview pages, no table of content just a brief description of what is inside the book. In a store, you can open a book and what is inside and I can see if is good enough to buy it or not. Is why I like the pdf. I can read the book and if it's good, I buy it because I hate to read on a computer screen or Ipad. If the book is not good, I will not lose money for a product I will not use. That my POV of that situation.
IMO, Death from the Skies is just for players who really need the update rules for tournament or for those played only with flyers. Everybody else will forget that book next week and wait until the codexes will all been updated to use there flyers.
Wow. Just wow. Interesting response to more mail-order only things.
And as a point of interest, can't independents order mail order at a lesser discount? Pretty sure my FLGS has ordered me things that are mail order only before (Was Crusade of Fire mail order only? I know the LE Rulebook was Mail Order only. I got that through my FLGS.)
Not that GW isn't being a bit of a pain in the ass with all the limited and mail order only, but I think this may be overreacting.
There is always the option of buying off the web page an marking them up a litte. Convenience is worth something and not everyone wants to go to their site to buy stuff.
As an FLGS gamer and customer, this decision ticks me off because it undermines the profitability of my FLGS.
I have already contacted GW customer service via e-mail expressing my ire over this decision. I intend to call on Tuesday as well.
If you are an FLGS supporter, throwing in your two cents on this unsatisfactory arrangement is worth doing. If you care, but remain silent, don't bitch when it continues.
I have no problem with the "ban," I'm just not sure how people were supposed to play at all with some fliers without it. (or a .pdf...)
I've idly wondered for years if GW is actually worth the hassle for gaming stores. With the huge upfront cost and massive range compared to CCGs or Roleplaying, aside from prestige I've wondered why so many stores even try.
As an FLGS gamer and customer, this decision ticks me off because it undermines the profitability of my FLGS.
I have already contacted GW customer service via e-mail expressing my ire over this decision. I intend to call on Tuesday as well.
If you are an FLGS supporter, throwing in your two cents on this unsatisfactory arrangement is worth doing. If you care, but remain silent, don't bitch when it continues.
Cheers,
Nate
I've done this as well. I told GW about my displeasure with the underhanded tactic displayed here, and made it clear in no uncertain terms that until the product becomes available through independent stockists, I will not buy it.
I won't be buying this supplement as I care too much about my FLGS to buy around them.
That being said, I hope the hyper competitive dorks that dislike FW in tournaments have their brains explode when necessary official rules are now harder to get. They are literally the same idea now.
pretre wrote: Wow. Just wow. Interesting response to more mail-order only things.
And as a point of interest, can't independents order mail order at a lesser discount? Pretty sure my FLGS has ordered me things that are mail order only before (Was Crusade of Fire mail order only? I know the LE Rulebook was Mail Order only. I got that through my FLGS.)
Not that GW isn't being a bit of a pain in the ass with all the limited and mail order only, but I think this may be overreacting.
What is hilarious to me is that most of the people who have an issue with this are still going to buy this book. If they weren't going to buy it, why would they care that an item is direct only? Crusade of Fire was technically direct-only, and sold out on pre-order. But that was for campaigns and didn't affect tournament play so noone gave a gak they couldn't buy it elsewhere for the most part. The people bitching here are either pissed they have to pay out again to stay on top of the current meta(GW's cash cow) or the usual talking heads who are just here to jump in on the latest anti-GW circlejerk.
Multiple detailed examples of why this was a terrible move on GW part.
Store owners upset that they are getting cut from the loop so bad they are banning rule books and encouraging switching games
Most people saying that they won't purchase a glorified FAQ because they invalidated the WD rules.
[sarcasm] Yeah, we're all just trying to spread a false hatred for this so there will more easily available for us to purchase. Either that or we to band wagon hatred for a company that many are invest heavily into. [/sarcasm]
Has it never occurred to you that we are honestly upset and voicing concern/criticism?
Grahamulot wrote: I dont mean to poo on anyones hate parade......but the new FAQS out today clearly have all the rules updates for free.....you dont need the book. I will be getting it because it contains White Dwarf stuff I dont have and I'm a nerd. Maybe too quick to overreact. Also, I dont have a Blood Angels Codex, would you prefer I buy a 41.00 Codex, or a 33.00 Book that has two of my units instead of one, as I play regular marines?
Tell that to Ork players, who now have to buy a $33 book to play with ANY of their flyers.
A friend of mine runs dual dakka jets. He loves playing them and it breathed new life into his ork army. Now he has to play $33 to keep playing them at the local GW, where previously he had the rules for much cheaper. I don't see how this new books helps him at all. Frankly, I think this new book is appalling. And yet I feel I have to get it to keep playing any of my armies.
I find this completely inaccurate. I didnt even own the white dwarf but that didn't stop me from trying for feast of blades or any other tournament. Its not that dramatic of an issue. (I play orks and own 3 dakkajets) I won't be buying the book, and thats still not going to stop me from playing. But thats mainly the realistic point is that no one cares if I personally bring my copy (even if I dont bring in a copy of the BRB), just that there is one of the books around to use.
Heck half my tourney goers at the FLGS don't bring much more than their codex and FAQs. that doesn't keep them from playing in tournaments, much less playing at home/friendly game stores. Just answer GW's crazy concept with simply not buying the product. Discuss with your TO, etc. about how to deal with it. Im sure your FLGS wont mind that you spend the outragous amount of money for a GW direct product for the box of x guys or vehicle directly from him instead and still use the rules you need.
One book that you have to buy from GW does not the end of the world make. In actuality it'll be the first thing I've bought from GW since they got rid of metal bits and individual sprues. What's that, about 6-7 years?. So stores, whether they be FLGS charging me retail for my impulse buying or the 25-30% off online shops, really do need to quit bitching like it's the end of the world.
What actually prompted me to buy was I thought I heard (thought) that the release was going to be a short run, not available after their X many copies had been sold. Which makes it real hard to implement as anything but optional rules. And hell, I'm not buying an Ipad to purchase the flyer book electronically.
It's good to see anyone trying to stick to their guns, but losing a $70 Stormraven sale (or $45 DoomScythe, or $XX Dark Eldar flyer) because you won't let your customer use the rules he bought online is pretty stupid IMO.
Savageconvoy wrote: Multiple detailed examples of why this was a terrible move on GW part.
Store owners upset that they are getting cut from the loop so bad they are banning rule books and encouraging switching games
And punishing their customers in response and alienating themselves from GW entirely by actively supporting their competitors. Speaking of terrible moves... I hope the small fraction of PP players can keep the lights on.
Savageconvoy wrote: Most people saying that they won't purchase a glorified FAQ because they invalidated the WD rules.
[sarcasm] Yeah, we're all just trying to spread a false hatred for this so there will more easily available for us to purchase. Either that or we to band wagon hatred for a company that many are invest heavily into. [/sarcasm]
Has it never occurred to you that we are honestly upset and voicing concern/criticism?
So they published official rules for models that previously had a WD release. I suppose it would be better for GW to go back to not doing random releases for models in between codex releases? People bitched about that too. It doesn't matter what they do, people will criticize them. They don't do random releases, people complain about having to wait years for an update for new things for their army. Then GW releases new things for nearly all armies in between codex releases, and released enough of them to warrant a book for the models and people bitch about that too.
I'm sure there's some honest criticism in here, but by and large it is the usual Dakka hatefest. In fact it would be easier to just compile any GW news into a single GW release rumor thread so everyone can continue their moaning for each new GW release as they pre-order said releases and the rest of us can try and have a worthwhile discussion.
pretre wrote: Wow. Just wow. Interesting response to more mail-order only things.
And as a point of interest, can't independents order mail order at a lesser discount? Pretty sure my FLGS has ordered me things that are mail order only before (Was Crusade of Fire mail order only? I know the LE Rulebook was Mail Order only. I got that through my FLGS.)
Not that GW isn't being a bit of a pain in the ass with all the limited and mail order only, but I think this may be overreacting.
What is hilarious to me is that most of the people who have an issue with this are still going to buy this book. If they weren't going to buy it, why would they care that an item is direct only? Crusade of Fire was technically direct-only, and sold out on pre-order. But that was for campaigns and didn't affect tournament play so noone gave a gak they couldn't buy it elsewhere for the most part. The people bitching here are either pissed they have to pay out again to stay on top of the current meta(GW's cash cow) or the usual talking heads who are just here to jump in on the latest anti-GW circlejerk.
Except...this book has nothing to do with the "meta" or staying on top of anything. All it is a compilation of existing rules that can be found elsewhere.
The problem is that it's the only way to get ahold of many of those rules now (without going to Ebay or illegal PDF's) and it's only available from GW's webstore, and cuts local game stores that form the foundation of many gaming communities out of the value chain.
I really don't think you really understand the problem people are having here.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I go to this store, It is vehemently Pro-PP and Anti-Gw. They regularly let PP games played on nights of other games, but wont allow 40k played on anything other then our days or other games. This store doesn't care about you if you don't play a game one of their employees plays.
Well, this is misleading and unfair in many ways.
I have had some issues with Gnome Games, and know others who have as well, but none of the issues that I or anyone I play with are anything like what you describe. Mostly the issue that I have seen people have with Gnome is that they do not do discounts other than the occasional sale.
Your post makes me believe you are a fairly new customer to Gnome Games, and only frequent the west side store. This location has a limited gaming space, and has very regular card tournaments (magic, pokemon, etc.) that make a lot more money for the store than mini gaming ever could. Getting bitchy online about this, but leaving out the whole story makes them sound much worse about this than they are in reality. In my experience, the employees at Gnome are very helpful and do their best to accommodate all of their customers.
As to the point about only supporting games their employees play, there are several employees of Gnome that do play 40k on a regular basis (one even has a Black Templars army, and will no doubt be disappointed about the inability to use flyers), so that part of your post makes no sense in this discussion.
Up until fairly recently (within the last 1-1.5 years) Pat promoted the hell out of GW. Two store locations running a total of 3 Ard Boyz qualifiers because there were so many people showing up to play, and then running the later rounds for our state, and getting nothing in return shows support for GW in my book. It was not until GW completely cut all tourney support and the general customer base began bitching up a storm that PP was introduced.
Pat did not push PP on customers, he was asked to carry the product line by quite a few people. The community is shifting to other games than WH40k, and they are shifting with the market. Add in the fact that PP has a balanced ruleset, puts out tournament rules and scenarios on a regular basis, lets the fanbase and retailers know about upcoming releases while they are still in development, and you will see why the store is shifting away from GW.
If you go to the east side location, you will find that there are always tables set-up upstairs and you can play whatever mini games you want as long as there is not an event going on already using them all.
Except...this book has nothing to do with the "meta" or staying on top of anything. All it is a compilation of existing rules that can be found elsewhere.
The problem is that it's the only way to get ahold of many of those rules now (without going to Ebay or illegal PDF's) and it's only available from GW's webstore, and cuts local game stores that form the foundation of many gaming communities out of the value chain.
I really don't think you really understand the problem people are having here.
The WD rules are in many cases still valid. There were FAQ updates, and some of those FAQs(Orks) simply referred to Death From the Skies. So to find the rules for Ork flyers you have to buy the book, maybe. So people who already have the rules, mostly, don't need this book. Those complaining, either want the rules for their army's flyer(s) for free, and don't want to buy a full book, essentially. If I am wrong here, please explain it better, but that's what the complaints I've read seem to indicate, you know, aside from the people who come here to complain about anythingGW releases.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I go to this store, It is vehemently Pro-PP and Anti-Gw. They regularly let PP games played on nights of other games, but wont allow 40k played on anything other then our days or other games. This store doesn't care about you if you don't play a game one of their employees plays.
Well, this is misleading and unfair in many ways.
I have had some issues with Gnome Games, and know others who have as well, but none of the issues that I or anyone I play with are anything like what you describe. Mostly the issue that I have seen people have with Gnome is that they do not do discounts other than the occasional sale.
Your post makes me believe you are a fairly new customer to Gnome Games, and only frequent the west side store. This location has a limited gaming space, and has very regular card tournaments (magic, pokemon, etc.) that make a lot more money for the store than mini gaming ever could. Getting bitchy online about this, but leaving out the whole story makes them sound much worse about this than they are in reality. In my experience, the employees at Gnome are very helpful and do their best to accommodate all of their customers.
As to the point about only supporting games their employees play, there are several employees of Gnome that do play 40k on a regular basis (one even has a Black Templars army, and will no doubt be disappointed about the inability to use flyers), so that part of your post makes no sense in this discussion.
Up until fairly recently (within the last 1-1.5 years) Pat promoted the hell out of GW. Two store locations running a total of 3 Ard Boyz qualifiers because there were so many people showing up to play, and then running the later rounds for our state, and getting nothing in return shows support for GW in my book. It was not until GW completely cut all tourney support and the general customer base began bitching up a storm that PP was introduced.
Pat did not push PP on customers, he was asked to carry the product line by quite a few people. The community is shifting to other games than WH40k, and they are shifting with the market. Add in the fact that PP has a balanced ruleset, puts out tournament rules and scenarios on a regular basis, lets the fanbase and retailers know about upcoming releases while they are still in development, and you will see why the store is shifting away from GW.
If you go to the east side location, you will find that there are always tables set-up upstairs and you can play whatever mini games you want as long as there is not an event going on already using them all.
I wasnt speaking of gnome games. I do not live in that area, so no comment on it. I frequent BDG.
I wasnt speaking of gnome games. I do not live in that area, so no comment on it. I frequent BDG.
Okay. In a thread started about one games store, and with another thrown in later, it would be good to point out which you are hating on. Sorry for the confusion on this one then. I have no idea how that other store works, and until today was unaware of it's existence.
The WD rules are in many cases still valid. There were FAQ updates, and some of those FAQs(Orks) simply referred to Death From the Skies. So to find the rules for Ork flyers you have to buy the book, maybe. So people who already have the rules, mostly, don't need this book. Those complaining, either want the rules for their army's flyer(s) for free, and don't want to buy a full book, essentially. If I am wrong here, please explain it better, but that's what the complaints I've read seem to indicate, you know, aside from the people who come here to complain about [i/]anything[/i] GW releases.
Let me see if I can explain it better (at least, my problem with it).
You say the WD rules are in many cases still valid.
How do you know that? The new FAQ says only that the rules for (for example) the Ork Bomma are now found in Death from the Skies. I have the WD, and I can't use the WD and the FAQ to find out anything about the current rules for the unit. Until the rulebook is out, no one knows what the current rules for the Ork Bomma are, or how closely they resembled the old rules. I'm leaving out the iPad edition here, because I don't have it, and I don't know what takes priority if the FAQ contradicts the iPad edition.
Spoiler:
Note to iPad users. The FAQ invalidates your digital editions of these rules, too, because it specifies only Death from the Skies as the source for these rules, and not your digital edition of the rules.
GWused to provide updated rules for the unit in the FAQ, allowing those of us who had already paid for the rules for the unit to actually use the unit in a GW game.
Now, despite the fact that I've paid GW for the model, and for the rules, I have to buy the rules again, because GW has decided not to include rules updates in their rules updates.
This isn't GW asking me to spend money for a new codex, or a new version of the rules. This is GW deciding to exclude certain rules updates from their own FAQ process, to instead require you to purchase them. I'm kind of wondering if they'll provide a FAQ and Errata for Death from the Skies, or just require you to buy a "More Death from the Skies" rulebook to find them out.
Can you see why I'm annoyed? Some models get free FAQ and Errata. Other models require the purchase of a separate book just for their Errata. I'm not even mentioning the fact that I can't buy this book from the place where I buy the models that the book provides rules for.
You say the WD rules are in many cases still valid.
How do you know that? The new FAQ says only that the rules for (for example) the Ork Bomma are now found in Death from the Skies.
Well I did say maybe. So you are saying people are upset about the book because the rules might change, but so far all we know is one flyer for sure is referenced in the new book via the FAQ. And 8 pages of GW bashing about that seems reasonable?
GW used to provide updated rules for the unit in the FAQ, allowing those of us who had already paid for the rules for the unit to actually use the unit in a GW game.
Now, despite the fact that I've paid GW for the model, and for the rules, I have to buy the rules again, because GW has decided not to include rules updates in their rules updates.
You paid for a White Dwarf which contained rules for a model released outside of the codex. Now they have released newer rules(possibly) for that model. Would you have preferred they not release the new Ork flyer models until 2014 or whenever they release the next Ork codex?
GW used to provide updated rules for the unit in the FAQ, allowing those of us who had already paid for the rules for the unit to actually use the unit in a GW game.
Now, despite the fact that I've paid GW for the model, and for the rules, I have to buy the rules again, because GW has decided not to include rules updates in their rules updates.
You paid for a White Dwarf which contained rules for a model released outside of the codex. Now they have released newer rules(possibly) for that model. Would you have preferred they not release the new Ork flyer models until 2014 or whenever they release the next Ork codex?
Why are those the only 2 options? There was a time, not so very long ago, when rule updates that did not rise to the level of a new expansion or codex were, gasp, released for free on their website. Not even in the FAQ, as DB mentions, they used to flat out give away rules that weren't in a position to be sold. There was an entire Blood Angels Codex released in this fashion, Kroot mercenary lists, etc., etc....
You say the WD rules are in many cases still valid.
How do you know that? The new FAQ says only that the rules for (for example) the Ork Bomma are now found in Death from the Skies.
Well I did say maybe. So you are saying people are upset about the book because the rules might change, but so far all we know is one flyer for sure is referenced in the new book. And 8 pages of GW bashing about that seems reasonable?
You do realize that's not even vaguely the main complaint retailers have here, right?
blackdiamond wrote: ...
It's not a happy situation. There is no "up side" for retailers. There is little we can do in the face of Games Workshop shenanigans. Our customer bases have eroded, sales fallen as all but the hardcore players have jumped ship in the wake of insanely high prices, anemic releases, and a black out marketing strategy. At a certain point we have to just say NO. Does it make sense that we draw the line in the sand here? I think so. They've made a concerted effort to release a major rules update (or it's completely insignificant, you tell me) by bypassing retailers. I thought it was an empty gesture this morning, but clearly people feel this is a critical rules release, which makes the stand that much more important.
As for what will the dangerous retailer do next, what kind of power do you think we have? We can carry a game or not carry a game. We can run events or not run events. That's about it. We do this through the grace of our customers, who we acknowledge are doing us a favor by spending their hard earned money with us. Again, there is no up side to this, but Games Workshop continues to push us into a corner.
Honestly, at my store this issue effects about 12 people. However, the perception of hostile action is so strong that people hours away declare their intent to boycott. So I ask, is there anything that this company will do to make you lose your loyalty? Must you condemn others for taking a stand, even as you bend over, and close your eyes?
Gary L. Ray
Black Diamond Games, Ltd.
1950 Market Street, Suite E
Concord, CA 94520
You paid for a White Dwarf which contained rules for a model released outside of the codex. Now they have released newer rules(possibly) for that model. Would you have preferred they not release the new Ork flyer models until 2014 or whenever they release the next Ork codex?
The best way to handle this would have been to include the rules for the flyers in the regular FAQ updates. If they wanted to include them in a white dwarf then fine. However, making people pay the price of a codex in order to get the rules for a single model in their army is more than OTT.
I just want to throw out their. If the larger indy tournaments that don't allow forgeworld modles were to come out and say they are not going to use this supplement and that they consider it the same as a forgeworld supplement, it would set a trend for the indy tournaments to shun it. It would help cut into the sales of the book, and make this "Boycott" by the community much more stronger.
Let's face it. If your a tourny player, your going to NEED this book if the tournament is allowing it. Heck you are probly considering ordering it now so you can start reading it. But if the major tournaments start coming out now and saying they will not allow it. This will cut into the profits and show GW we will not put up with a supplement like this being web only.
For example, if Adepticon comes out now and says they will only allowed it's use in the gladiator tournament, and not the main 40k ones.
Every now and then, I pop back into Dakka to read about the latest GW shenanigans. And they have never disappointed.
To be honest, I'm still surprised that anyone is still spending money on GW miniatures and rules. And it's not even about the price increases or the power creep or anything like that.
It's the fact that GW continually seems to disregard any effort to win/maintain customer goodwill.
At least other companies pretend to like their customers.
And the other companies are certainly smart enough to not actively piss off their retailers.
Starfarer wrote: You paid for a White Dwarf which contained rules for a model released outside of the codex. Now they have released newer rules(possibly) for that model. Would you have preferred they not release the new Ork flyer models until 2014 or whenever they release the next Ork codex?
As a consumer that paid for those items, it seems just that hes entitled to play with those rules. The fact GW is pushing a new book with the methods its currently using is appalling.
The fact your here either as the white knight (which I hope your not) or as devil's advocate leaves only my disdain for you. This sir is a problem for the 40k gaming community at large and you should see this problem for what it is.
A double slap; both to the regular FLGS not being able to stock this *required* addendum, and to the consumer in that their WD purchase was just invalidated by this books requirement to play with those models affected.
Lockark wrote: I just want to throw out their. If the larger indy tournaments that don't allow forgeworld modles were to come out and say they are not going to use this supplement and that they consider it the same as a forgeworld supplement, it would set a trend for the indy tournaments to shun it. It would help cut into the sales of the book, and make this "Boycott" by the community much more stronger.
That will never happen. You can pretty much bet that not all of the local players to the few stores doing this will support their decision. For major tournaments to do it would be suicide. The rules updates primarily impact SM, BT and Orks as all of the other armies had their flyers handled via proper FAQ changes. Given the number of SM players at any given tournament, to not allow the stormtalon or storm raven would completely piss off too many people.
Starfarer wrote:So they published official rules for models that previously had a WD release. I suppose it would be better for GW to go back to not doing random releases for models in between codex releases? People bitched about that too.
'Not releasing anything' and 'releasing rules in a direct-only book' are not the only two options...
Then GW releases new things for nearly all armies in between codex releases, and released enough of them to warrant a book for the models and people bitch about that too.
Sorry, you're saying that 2 models were enough to warrant a book...?
Starfarer wrote:The WD rules are in many cases still valid. There were FAQ updates, and some of those FAQs(Orks) simply referred to Death From the Skies. So to find the rules for Ork flyers you have to buy the book, maybe. So people who already have the rules, mostly, don't need this book. Those complaining, either want the rules for their army's flyer(s) for free, and don't want to buy a full book, essentially. If I am wrong here, please explain it better, but that's what the complaints I've read seem to indicate, you know, aside from the people who come here to complain about anythingGW releases.
Yes, you're wrong here. I want the rules for the Ork flyers, which were originally released in white dwarf (which retails here in Oz for somewhere around $11). A free download of those rules, as GW used to do, would have been fantastic, but I would have quite happily paid up to the cost of the white dwarf mag for a PDF download version. Instead, GW have given me the option to buy a book for $48 plus shipping, to add one new model with a few different weapon options to my codex.
clively wrote: Given the number of SM players at any given tournament, to not allow the stormtalon or storm raven would completely piss off too many people.
Given the number of SM players at any given tournament, to not allow the Storm Eagle or Caestus assault ram would completely piss off too many people.
But yet TOs do exactly that, and somehow their tournaments keep going.
clively wrote: Given the number of SM players at any given tournament, to not allow the stormtalon or storm raven would completely piss off too many people.
Given the number of SM players at any given tournament, to not allow the Storm Eagle or Caestus assault ram would completely piss off too many people.
But yet TOs do exactly that, and somehow their tournaments keep going.
I have never seen a storm eagle or CAESTUS ASSAULT RAM in person. I have, however, seen plenty of storm talons. Comparing FW to losing access to standard units is a bit misguided.
clively wrote: I have never seen a storm eagle or CAESTUS ASSAULT RAM in person. I have, however, seen plenty of storm talons. Comparing FW to losing access to standard units is a bit misguided.
But up until now they haven't been standard units (other than for the armies they were initially released for). In fact, I'd bet that right now there are a lot more C:SM Storm Eagles than C:SM Stormravens, and the FW players are excluded without hesitation. Banning the new book right now and never allowing it would impact a lot fewer people than FW bans, so if TOs can get away with banning FW they can get away with banning GW's latest milking of the cash cow.
clively wrote: Given the number of SM players at any given tournament, to not allow the stormtalon or storm raven would completely piss off too many people.
Given the number of SM players at any given tournament, to not allow the Storm Eagle or Caestus assault ram would completely piss off too many people.
But yet TOs do exactly that, and somehow their tournaments keep going.
Mostly because the flyer book is an official GW release, further linked in the official FAQs, whereas Forgeworld ain't (fortunately).
Sigvatr wrote: Mostly because the flyer book is an official GW release, further linked in the official FAQs, whereas Forgeworld ain't (fortunately).
FW are official GW releases, as stated by GW.
Anyway, it's not about officialness, since TOs are happy to house rule stuff all the time, it's about who is excluded. Banning FW excludes a lot of people but somehow tournaments still happen, so I fail to see how a similar exclusion of people who bought C:SM Stormravens is going to kill tournaments. Attendance might drop a bit, but it's not like TOs are concerned with maximizing attendance at all costs. History clearly shows that TOs are willing to sacrifice it in the interest of making their ideal version of 40k, so why should this book be any different?
And, TBH, there's even more justification for banning DftS than for banning FW stuff. At least with FW everyone knows it's a niche market thing and your FLGS doesn't expect to make any money off it. On the other hand, this is the kind of book that used to be available to FLGS but now it's a giant "**** YOU" to every independent retailer. So I can entirely understand the desire of independent store owners to return the "**** YOU" and ban a book that is bad for their business.
My local store has got it right, they ban allGW stuff.
Not because of death from the skies but because GW is a bunch of d-bags. Years ago we had an awesome shop called Brain Snacks which was the largest GW seller in the Midwest. They moved tons of it, so much so that GW decided to send in staff to do all sorts of promotions, they sweet talked all the gamers and ran tournies and gave away product, then promptly opened up their Batle Bunker and Regional HQ less than 5 minutes away.
The redshirts of course promoted the hell out of their move so they could steal the player base by suddenly yanking all of the event support and then limiting the store ability to place orders. GW claimed that they don't allow independants to purchase direct when there's an established GW store within a reasonable radius. Nevermind the fact our store had already been established in the area for 15 years prior to GW brand new bunker.
(they also run Adepticon in the same town, so there's was a massive 40k player base but it's dying because the bunker does NOTHING to support the players)
With their acess to the GW line instantly disconnected it was a major cause in the store folding. 40k was a huge part of their sales base. Once Brain Snacks was gone suddenly GW stopped all their special events and in-store discounts (usually 30% off). They didn't give a damn about building or maintaining a community they just wanted to steal the exsisting one and once there wasn't another option for the players to resort to they went back to ignoring their customer base as usual.
Seven years later a bunch of the former employees of Brain Snacks opened a new store under the name Fair Game, which carries everything butGW. The crowd there hasn't forgotten the dick move GW pulled and honestly they aren't missed. You can go by there most nights and find it packed with people playing ccgs, boardgames, warmachine, hordes, x wing etc. Yet if you go across town to the bunker you see the GW staff sitting around painting store amies while there's maybe 4-5 people in the game room.
They have a permanant ban on everything GW, books, models, paints, brushes. If it's GW it doesn't have a place in that store, and deservedly so.
They may produce great models but GW's business strategies are completely toxic to the gaming community.
Also I know Pat from back when I played the L5R ccg, I've made plenty of trips to his store. He's a great guy and runs an awesome shop so he knows what he's doing and what works for his store. He actually has his hand on the pulse of the local community, unlike GW. Pat if you read this you get a huge thumbs up from me. (Togashi Akagi)
Hells yes! Central WI finally makes it on the map! Go Green Bay-Appleton hobby shops!
This whole flier thing is all about $. period. Just look at the price of every frikin flier. I have also always tried to support my local hobby shops (Johnny Cee's Cards, Rules of Engagement, Jadeco -RIP) even if it cost a small amount more... so I am not a fan of all this online only crap.
I for one have always supported GW, love 40k, and have always tried to hold onto the motto "40k is a lifestyle, not a game". In my early years I made foot slogging armies because I love marines, terminators, and other minis, and hated spending $45 for a land raider that I could have spent on two troop boxes. I have since added a few vehicles in the past 15 years but choke everytime I see a land raider, storm raven, or other flier nearing $100.
I purchased my charcharodon stormraven off ebay MIP for under $50 last year... and I don't even want to know how much I paid for that little DA flier I purchased when I got the new DA bundle of everything (yeah I didn't even look). With a house and little ones possibly on the horizon, I think the warseer angry crowds are correct - my middle class self has almost finally been priced out of the hobby. I haven't even been able to find someone to play a game with after 6th edition came out... even with all the $ I have dumped into 40k since. I have already seen my brother - a pc programmer - priced out as he can't even fit the 6th edition rulebook or harbback chaos codex into his budget with three kids.
Kinda sad but I have seen most shops starting to switch to dust tactics where you can buy squads for $15 (or $11 from miniaturemarket). Oh well, I love that game too and it is growing on me fast.
I think what this is is the continuation of the trend of GW trying to force their customer base to go to them and them alone. Think about what the company has said about having hundreds of more GW stores in America and the shift to make things more direct purchase only from their online stores and brick and mortar locations. Each move costs LFGS more lost revenue as they are forced to compete with their supplier for consumers.
Would you agree to carry product from a company that then opens a store ten minutes down the road from you and only allows you to sell a limited range of their product? It gets frustrating as these are business people who operate LFGS and GW is hamstringing them from making a profit.
So do not be surprised at boycotts to GW practices. One way or another, that store is going to lose money because they either cannot or consciously will not get the product from someone treating them unfairly.
Obviously beating a dead horse here, but as much as you want it to be like that, and as much as I don't care either way... it's not like that as long as actual WH40kBRB/FAQs and even GW-organized tournaments say they're official/legal for regular 40k. Until that time they're nothing but an optional expansion which opponents have to agree on being allowed or not.
WarOne wrote: I think what this is is the continuation of the trend of GW trying to force their customer base to go to them and them alone. Think about what the company has said about having hundreds of more GW stores in America and the shift to make things more direct purchase only from their online stores and brick and mortar locations. Each move costs LFGS more lost revenue as they are forced to compete with their supplier for consumers.
And yet GW's stores in the UK and (especially) Australia appear to be an enormous money pit if you look at their operating costs. It makes you wonder why they don't simply stop the store model and encourage MORE indy shops - especially given that in North America in the 90s a frequent occurrence involved GW opening a store near an independent, driving the indy out of business and then disappearing themselves before too long.
Anyway, Death from the Skies mostly annoys me because I only recently got round to printing out my PDF of Ork flyer rules; now I'll have to wait for another PDF to show up and show me if my info has been invalidated. I may have totally wasted the 16p I spent on printing those pages out.
WarOne wrote: I think what this is is the continuation of the trend of GW trying to force their customer base to go to them and them alone. Think about what the company has said about having hundreds of more GW stores in America and the shift to make things more direct purchase only from their online stores and brick and mortar locations. Each move costs LFGS more lost revenue as they are forced to compete with their supplier for consumers.
And yet GW's stores in the UK and (especially) Australia appear to be an enormous money pit if you look at their operating costs. It makes you wonder why they don't simply stop the store model and encourage MORE indy shops - especially given that in North America in the 90s a frequent occurrence involved GW opening a store near an independent, driving the indy out of business and then disappearing themselves before too long.
Anyway, Death from the Skies mostly annoys me because I only recently got round to printing out my PDF of Ork flyer rules; now I'll have to wait for another PDF to show up and show me if my info has been invalidated. I may have totally wasted the 16p I spent on printing those pages out.
You know, we can have a real discussion about issues without you coming in and being all like "Look at me, I am cool, I am pirating stuff! Take that GW!"
Your little piracy quip adds nothing to the discussion.
Death from the skies would be an ideal way for retailers to carve some extra goodwill from their customer base.
Buy the books from GW.
Either sell them at cost (retail price) or run a promotion with a copy of the book and some fliers at x discount. Or a 40k DFTS combo deal.
Sure GW gets a sales spike but the shop gets the goodwill, keeps customers interested and the knowledgeable fans will be able to play and see what other goodies the general hobby has to offer.
Mr. Burning wrote: Death from the skies would be an ideal way for retailers to carve some extra goodwill from their customer base.
In an ideal world, this would not be a bad idea.
In the retail sense however, many of these LFGS probably cannot afford to do that. A lot of stores have vanished since 2007 (and many have opened as well). A store needs to make money. Carrying a book that nets them exactly zero profit is not in their interests.
I can understand if the retailer gets the kits that allow them to build models for customers to look at (or sell if they're so inclined for more profit), but what does a retailer do if they order six books and they sell the six books but no other merchandise?
Should the retailer feel privileged they should order from GW a product they have no incentive to sell? Should the LFGS make the customers happy? Well, I hope LFGS do not need to do so already as if they're not appreciated, they would be gone anyway.
If they're trying to help me, they're failing. They're trying to convince me to play a different system, which is not the role of a store. Unfortunately, I have no faith in a store that would sell out a system once. Who is to say they won't end up pulling the same trick against Warmahordes when they next put out a release that the community doesn't like? Fundamentally a store that is willing to sell out a system and stop supporting its customers once has lost its trust with me, and given the easy and appealing "20-30% discounted online store" option such stores will never have my business.
It's not a happy situation. There is no "up side" for retailers. There is little we can do in the face of Games Workshop shenanigans. Our customer bases have eroded, sales fallen as all but the hardcore players have jumped ship in the wake of insanely high prices, anemic releases, and a black out marketing strategy. At a certain point we have to just say NO. Does it make sense that we draw the line in the sand here? I think so. They've made a concerted effort to release a major rules update (or it's completely insignificant, you tell me) by bypassing retailers. I thought it was an empty gesture this morning, but clearly people feel this is a critical rules release, which makes the stand that much more important.
As for what will the dangerous retailer do next, what kind of power do you think we have? We can carry a game or not carry a game. We can run events or not run events. That's about it. We do this through the grace of our customers, who we acknowledge are doing us a favor by spending their hard earned money with us. Again, there is no up side to this, but Games Workshop continues to push us into a corner.
Honestly, at my store this issue effects about 12 people. However, the perception of hostile action is so strong that people hours away declare their intent to boycott. So I ask, is there anything that this company will do to make you lose your loyalty? Must you condemn others for taking a stand, even as you bend over, and close your eyes?
Gary L. Ray
Black Diamond Games, Ltd.
1950 Market Street, Suite E
Concord, CA 94520
:slow clap: If my LGS owner had your stones... well, he wouldn't be eating tinned beans and placing orders only after new Magic releases. But that's beside the point.
nkelsch wrote: Considering 'second hand' books which are less than a year old are often in 'like-new' condition, they are selling pretty well on ebay. It isn't like it is an out of date edition.
It doesn't seem at all like a deal to me.
Take some stuff to a pawnbroker some time and see how much you get for it compared to how much they charge for it.
Again, you'll never get as much for a trade-in as you will selling it yourself. That's just how the second-hand market works.
oh, I know exactly how not doing the legwork yourself works... Every time an item changes hands to the final destination you should expect a 50% cut in cost. So if I sell to you, and you sell to the final owner. I should expect about 50% of what you plan to sell it for so you get your cut.
The issue is this store owner is not a pawn broker or an ebay auction place who is doing this for his primary business. This is a store owner trying to convert a customerbase to another system so he can stay in business as he has a customer-impacting feud with a distributor in an unprofessional way. If he was interested in helping convert customers, and is serious about basically 'destroying' his 40k customerbase, then I feel like he shouldn't be looking to profit off a trade-in program. I would say run it at cost or a loss so it was actually a discount. If he is selling hardback 40k rulebooks for 25$ and giving people 40% discounts of 50$ boxes, he is still profiting. If he was actually serious about converting, he should give people actual discounts out of his pocket in order to take responsibility of his feud with GW if he was serious about it.
I don't feel it is a deal at all. It doesn't add up and combined with the rest of the situation doesn't seem at all appealing to me.
I don't disagree with this, per se. I think that the stores could afford to offer a straight up trade: New PP core book for Hordes or Warmachine for trade in 6E 40k book. Since the PP book is $30, and the GW one is $75 (!!!) the store could turn around and sell the used GW book in store or on Ebay for $30 and still make a profit, while at the same time screwing GW out of the proceeds on their core rule book and one customer who now jumps to another system. The Army book-Codex comparison is a little harder (but easier with every new release as the GW ones are now $50!) but that still might work well for a trade in, however army books are utterly superfluous due to the fact that PP packages each model with its rules. GW could save alot of butthurt by doing the same for their non-codex releases...
mazik765 wrote: A CEO making an email address called 'ihategw', that's fascinating...I wasn't actually aware they let preteens run companies.
Anyone tried that email?
I cannot find that open letter on the actual gnome games website. Only the partial excerpts on that one blog, which also seems to be only a few days old.
Kingsley wrote: To be honest, if any store owner tells me not to play with official Games Workshop products at that store, I'm going to stop playing (and buying) at that store at all. This strategy might work in places where the store is "the only game in town," but I have many choices for stores to attend and if some of them decide not to support the game system I play, I'm out.
Um, no.
Say said store wishes to run a tournament with the latest 40k rules. All the rules are a requirements for every player. Lets say we have 32 players. This store, no matter what has lost £640 as GW has decided to stick 2 fingers up at them and say they cannot purchase this to sell in their stores.
It's not a fringe item like Forgeworld (another item which independents cannot purchase wholesale IIRC). This is an essential update for the core game and if the customers wish to support their FLGS, GW is saying a big, fat NO!
Except it's not an essential update, which is what the other half the people complaining about the book are saying. You can play perfectly fine without it, as the flier rules and errata changes to fliers are either included in the BRB, codices, and FAQs. The only thing that this book is required for it to run two optional units, the Storm Talon and the Ork planes. It doesn't change any of the core rules. I'm with Kingsley on this. It's a glorified, admittedly overpriced WD compendium, that's it. Not an overhaul to the core rules or anything required, and banning it from use in a store is just being petty. For me, I'm now inclined to pick up a couple more fliers (Talon, Dakka Jet, and Razorwing) to expand my various air forces, which results in increased sales for my FLGS.
This is just a few people throwing a tantrum over a book that is optional for everyone but the few that want to run specific units that don't have rules entries available elsewhere.
Mr. Burning wrote: Death from the skies would be an ideal way for retailers to carve some extra goodwill from their customer base.
In an ideal world, this would not be a bad idea.
In the retail sense however, many of these LFGS probably cannot afford to do that. A lot of stores have vanished since 2007 (and many have opened as well). A store needs to make money. Carrying a book that nets them exactly zero profit is not in their interests.
I can understand if the retailer gets the kits that allow them to build models for customers to look at (or sell if they're so inclined for more profit), but what does a retailer do if they order six books and they sell the six books but no other merchandise?
Should the retailer feel privileged they should order from GW a product they have no incentive to sell? Should the LFGS make the customers happy? Well, I hope LFGS do not need to do so already as if they're not appreciated, they would be gone anyway.
A few problems to a retailer carrying the book:
1.) They wouldn't admit it was coming out. I begged for info, i got various lies, evasions, etc.
2.) While I can order Direct Only items, they have to have them for sale. The last few times they sold items like this, we couldn't order until after they were gone.
3.) Most of my customers ordered it already from GW, not knowing if I could or couldn't get it in.
Maybe this week I can order some? Who knows? ....rapidly turning to "who cares?".
As a retailer and TO, I wouldn't ban the book from my store. That just gives gamers a reason to turn their anger on me, and doesn't hurt GW.
As muchas I love GW's models I hate their way of doing business. I only shop the after market for GW's products. Ebay, craigslist, swaps, etc...
The best thing for stores to d is start a "return section." A local store near me "buys" stuff from people wanting to turn in old models and armies for store credit. The store then sticks a price tag on the "returned" models and sells them. Used, cheaper then retail and supports the FLGS 100%.
You paid for a White Dwarf which contained rules for a model released outside of the codex. Now they have released newer rules(possibly) for that model. Would you have preferred they not release the new Ork flyer models until 2014 or whenever they release the next Ork codex?
Heeeyyyyyyyyyyy Starfarer,
Step into my office...
I bought a model.
I bought a rulebook.
I bought a codex.
I still cannot use the model I bought for my army, despite these purchases, because the rules have been placed in another book. I cannot even buy this book locally or at a discount online, only from GW themselves. The vast amount of that book is optional rules that have little chance of making it into my games, yet there will be 3 vehicle profiles that I need to use flyers in my ork army.
And I know, when they finally release the ork army book, this same information will either be suddenly revised and then the book utterly useless to me, or the same information will be repeated.
Tannhauser42 wrote: It is a slap to the face of the independent stores. You can sell the Stormtalon in your store, but you can't sell the rulebook that includes the Stormtalon's rules. How do you explain that to a customer?
Not because of death from the skies but because GW is a bunch of d-bags. Years ago we had an awesome shop called Brain Snacks which was the largest GW seller in the Midwest. They moved tons of it, so much so that GW decided to send in staff to do all sorts of promotions, they sweet talked all the gamers and ran tournies and gave away product, then promptly opened up their Batle Bunker and Regional HQ less than 5 minutes away.
They may produce great models but GW's business strategies are completely toxic to the gaming community.
*SNIP*
.
Yes that was well known in the early 90's, and is something that happened in the UK as well as US (assuming that is where you are referring to). I worked in an independent that used to stock GW - perfectly fine relationship until a GW opened 5 minutes away across the town. Suddenly new releases started turning up weeks late or not at all, big sellers wouldn't come in the re-supply, and the same again the sales rep just became really evasive and actually quite imaginative in terms of the excuses that were given for why the previously reliable supply had suddenly become untenable. All BS of course - luckily the Independent sold enough other stuff (being a general modelling/railway store) that it didn't take the hit of losing GW that badly.
So really I suppose in that light the business practices haven't changed that much - you could use lots of fruity language at this point to describe it, but really this amongst all of the other issues speaks for itself.
Savageconvoy wrote: It's hard not to put consumers in the middle ground, since we are the sales. The store owners are offering to help move players over to another game system, but are discouraged from working with GW. They aren't turning customers away at the door, while GW are turning customers actively from the door of the LGS to pull more traffic to their online store.
The stores involve us in the same way that if we boycott GW products, we'd be involving our FLGS. To send a message you have to impact sales, through boycott or switching games.
But I find it really odd that people are getting upset at the small game stores for trying to stand up, when we just had an excellent example earlier in the month of GW trying to crush the little guy (Woman in this particular instance). It's not an issue of them using us as a weapon, but merely the store owners trying to tell GW that they are not going to cater to them and they are establishing their own ground rules and encouraging people to trade in 40K for something else. I've never been to one, but doesn't the stores run by GW refuse third party models or something that's excessively converted?
I don't mind that the store is trying to stand up against GW. That is their decision. But when the store tries to do that by banning products on an individual basis, and trying to push people to change buying habits to a system the store likes better, they are not standing up against GW, but instead trying to manipulate their customers. If they wanted to stop stocking GW and/or ban GW games from the store, fine. But banning a single GW product is just being petty.
GW used to provide updated rules for the unit in the FAQ, allowing those of us who had already paid for the rules for the unit to actually use the unit in a GW game.
Now, despite the fact that I've paid GW for the model, and for the rules, I have to buy the rules again, because GW has decided not to include rules updates in their rules updates.
You paid for a White Dwarf which contained rules for a model released outside of the codex. Now they have released newer rules(possibly) for that model. Would you have preferred they not release the new Ork flyer models until 2014 or whenever they release the next Ork codex?
Why are those the only 2 options? There was a time, not so very long ago, when rule updates that did not rise to the level of a new expansion or codex were, gasp, released for free on their website. Not even in the FAQ, as DB mentions, they used to flat out give away rules that weren't in a position to be sold. There was an entire Blood Angels Codex released in this fashion, Kroot mercenary lists, etc., etc....
]
Because that is how GW is currently operating. Yes, they should have released the rules via PDF alongside the WD release or shortly after, and it's extremely lame to not support non-iOS devices for digital downloads(although I realize there are plans for Android digital items in the future). I won't argue that.
Starfarer wrote: You paid for a White Dwarf which contained rules for a model released outside of the codex. Now they have released newer rules(possibly) for that model. Would you have preferred they not release the new Ork flyer models until 2014 or whenever they release the next Ork codex?
As a consumer that paid for those items, it seems just that hes entitled to play with those rules. The fact GW is pushing a new book with the methods its currently using is appalling.
The fact your here either as the white knight (which I hope your not) or as devil's advocate leaves only my disdain for you. This sir is a problem for the 40k gaming community at large and you should see this problem for what it is.
A double slap; both to the regular FLGS not being able to stock this *required* addendum, and to the consumer in that their WD purchase was just invalidated by this books requirement to play with those models affected.
You are not entitled to anything. The fact that so many people equate a single purchase from a company to a lifetime of support with no further cost is hilarious. Do you also feel entitled to free DLC from a video game because you bought the game? Rules change in wargaming, and those rules changes necessitate new books.
I'm not a white knight, but I was wondering when someone was going to drop that. The fact is Dakka is so skewed towards being rabidly anti-GW anyone trying to remain relatively neutral immediately gets labeled a white knight, or gets shouted down and told to leave.
I still cannot use the model I bought for my army, despite these purchases, because the rules have been placed in another book. I cannot even buy this book locally or at a discount online, only from GW themselves. The vast amount of that book is optional rules that have little chance of making it into my games, yet there will be 3 vehicle profiles that I need to use flyers in my ork army.
And I know, when they finally release the ork army book, this same information will either be suddenly revised and then the book utterly useless to me, or the same information will be repeated.
blackdiamond wrote: "But you are making your customers hostages with your actions which seems rude and would turn off customers."
I can certainly see that now.
This is something that seemed like a minor thing, like banning a Forge World book. Now it seems to have a significance that wasn't fully understood (mostly because GW kept it a secret from us). The last thing I would want is to offend our customers, which it seems I've done tremendously well today. It would have been better to have simply dropped all 40K events or made an inventory decision, not that I plan to do those things yet. That's a more traditional retail way of solving problems with suppliers. I would certainly like to walk this one back, but I also see it as a direct attack from Games Workshop that can't be ignored.
Gary L. Ray
Black Diamond Games, Ltd.
1950 Market Street, Suite E
Concord, CA 94520
First and last warning for the thread--keep it polite and objective. Animated gifs and photo responses with no content are considered spam, please post accordingly.
Starfarer wrote: You are not entitled to anything. The fact that so many people equate a single purchase from a company to a lifetime of support with no further cost is hilarious. Do you also feel entitled to free DLC from a video game because you bought the game? Rules change in wargaming, and those rules changes necessitate new books.
I'm not a white knight, but I was wondering when someone was going to drop that. The fact is Dakka is so skewed towards being rabidly anti-GW anyone trying to remain relatively neutral immediately gets labeled a white knight, or gets shouted down and told to leave.
No, but he isn't pissed that he didn't get free DLC. He did buy the the Fliers DLC. The point is that suddenly he has to buy more expensive Fliers and Friends DLC because his last DLC just stopped working for no reason other than: "buy new one!".
The context of the purchased thing is the same. It's not something new, something improved, something cheaper. It's the exact same thing just more expensive.
Seeing as how this is how you respond to people, why would I waste time time trying to have a serious discussion about anything with you? If you can't show basic respect to other posters here, don't expect me to give you the same.
AgeOfEgos wrote: First and last warning for the thread--keep it polite and objective. Animated gifs and photo responses with no content are considered spam, please post accordingly.
Right the gif is the problem not the people telling other posters to GTFO, or advocating on insinuating use illegal downloads. I thought those were against Dakka rules?
AgeOfEgos wrote: First and last warning for the thread--keep it polite and objective. Animated gifs and photo responses with no content are considered spam, please post accordingly.
Right the gif is the problem not the people telling other posters to GTFO, or advocating on insinuating use illegal downloads. I thought those were against Dakka rules?
I am going to assume that his reminder to keep it polite are aimed at the people telling others off.
GW used to provide updated rules for the unit in the FAQ, allowing those of us who had already paid for the rules for the unit to actually use the unit in a GW game.
Now, despite the fact that I've paid GW for the model, and for the rules, I have to buy the rules again, because GW has decided not to include rules updates in their rules updates.
You paid for a White Dwarf which contained rules for a model released outside of the codex. Now they have released newer rules(possibly) for that model. Would you have preferred they not release the new Ork flyer models until 2014 or whenever they release the next Ork codex?
Why are those the only 2 options? There was a time, not so very long ago, when rule updates that did not rise to the level of a new expansion or codex were, gasp, released for free on their website. Not even in the FAQ, as DB mentions, they used to flat out give away rules that weren't in a position to be sold. There was an entire Blood Angels Codex released in this fashion, Kroot mercenary lists, etc., etc....
There is a third way , one that has been taken before and everyone loved. I'd still have bought this book if the ork bombers and SM bricks where released as pdfs. for the fluff the convenience and the missions.
But make no mistake by removing the WD content fix from the FAQ to force ork players with the WD rules to buy this book GW are being bullies.
clively wrote:The best way to handle this would have been to include the rules for the flyers in the regular FAQ updates. If they wanted to include them in a white dwarf then fine. However, making people pay the price of a codex in order to get the rules for a single model in their army is more than OTT.
Starfarer wrote: Well I did say maybe. So you are saying people are upset about the book because the rules might change, but so far all we know is one flyer for sure is referenced in the new book via the FAQ. And 8 pages of GW bashing about that seems reasonable?
yes. especially since we are dealing with ork fliers in a forum called 'dakka dakka'...
Everyone hates a bully. BDG and Gnome Games are trying (pathetically) to stand up to the Bully and that should at least be recognised... rubbish as it was. GW needs to do the right thing and release all Flier info in the FAQs/pdfs... there isn't enough info in this book for each army to warrant it must have status!
Everyone here knows who's being a bully... (or is suffering from the dreaded white knight version of stockholm syndrome.) I've already bought the book, I'll not be voting with my wallet, but I will be contacting them directly and raising my concerns.. I'll also be copying/pasting bits and pieces from this thread to their facebook page.
By standing up to the big bully they risk becoming bullies themselves by telling their customers what they can and cannot do at their stores.
If BDG and Gnome Games would simply say "If you didn't buy it in my store, you cannot play it in my store" (which is basically the message) the community would not respond so favorably I think. Their only possible redeeming factor is that the customers are not the target of the action, only collateral damage.
While I agree with trying to stick up for yourself against GW I dont agree with banning the book mainly because this book gives BT a massive boost, and when I say massive I mean Imperator titan massive, they went from no flyers to all the flyers they can eat buffet and what these flyers can give to BT are great.
and Vanilla marines got Stormravens, which was a nice little boost to them...
Note: I do not play SM or BT but I do feel sorry for those BT players who in a way needed this update...
happygolucky wrote: While I agree with trying to stick up for yourself against GW I dont agree with banning the book mainly because this book gives BT a massive boost, and when I say massive I mean Imperator titan massive, they went from no flyers to all the flyers they can eat buffet and what these flyers can give to BT are great.
If the reason to ban the book is simply because of what BT got, that would be absurd.
I think though much of the discussion has revolved around what LFGS are doing because they were not involved in the release of this book and can only get it like a regular customer can from GW direct.
The right thing to do would have been free PDFs, hell they used to have the entire WD blood angel codex as a PDF, free to print and play, but I'm expected to buy a mostly irrelevant to me book just to obtain necessary rules for part of my several thousand dollar army? Anyone defending this is on very unsure footing, I cannot understand how anything could be used as a defence in this case. It also only targets certain armies and therefore is an example of unbalanced customer service.
These flyer rules, in full, should be up on the site now, free to download, print and play. It is shifting the unwritten rules of the contract we entered into in our purchasing choice.
d-usa wrote: BDG and Gnome Games are in a hard place.
By standing up to the big bully they risk becoming bullies themselves by telling their customers what they can and cannot do at their stores.
If BDG and Gnome Games would simply say "If you didn't buy it in my store, you cannot play it in my store" (which is basically the message) the community would not respond so favorably I think. Their only possible redeeming factor is that the customers are not the target of the action, only collateral damage.
To be honest, how else exactly can these LGS's compete with this sort of an action?
Other then the draconian, "Burn down the walls and burn GW products at the stake", What exactly is the process that these guys have to show thier issues?
We already have enough issue with GW shelving product in FLGS's, as in they want to persue the "One Man Band" routine, while at the same time try to inflict maximum damage into local game communities. And for all that "Thats not really what they do..." routine- That is exactly what happens.
Is there some sort of place or someone to call over in the ivory tower that GW thinks they live in to deal with issues of this nature? I thought that they had some sort of "Community rep" over in Memphis TN. Is that not the case, now?
So here is a question (and forgive me if I missed it somewhere else in the thread) but are the big events like Adepticon, Nova, Wargames Con BAO and others planning on incorporating these new rules or are they going to ban them as well? Seems to me that if these events banned the use of this product it would have more an effect. Maybe not enough to make GW notice per se but they would effect more gamers as a whole than a couple of stores would.
Bikeninja wrote: So here is a question (and forgive me if I missed it somewhere else in the thread) but are the big events like Adepticon, Nova, Wargames Con BAO and others planning on incorporating these new rules or are they going to ban them as well? Seems to me that if these events banned the use of this product it would have more an effect. Maybe not enough to make GW notice per se but they would effect more gamers as a whole than a couple of stores would.
Highly doubt it but if they are smart they will have to add something about giving copies to their opponents the special rules about flyers in their games.
In my tournament games this is a non issue as it is a requirement to show the TO copies on what you are bringing including special rules.
Lol, funny thought. If you play a game and your opponent go Vendetta spams. Just ask if he have Death from the Skies. If not, he can't use the Vendetta lol
"Baaaaaaawwwww, this new product is direct order only so I can't make money off it! Screw you GW! I'm banning your book from my store! Everyone play Warmahordes instead! BAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!"
Sigh.
Yeah, GW have some pretty stupid business practices (£50 Stormraven is pushing it a bit, GW) but this kind of response is feeble. It hurts the customers more than it hurts GW, who don't at the end of the day deserve to be "hurt" for this. They made a book direct-only. Hardly a crime against humanity.
Also, remember that even if this did hurt GW, the only people in GW who will be hurt are the poor run-of-the-mill employees, like the moldmakers, the managers, the pencil pushers, the store employees...the real "enemy", the fat cats at the head of the business will just lay them off and won't have to worry at all.
Tannhauser42 wrote: It is a slap to the face of the independent stores. You can sell the Stormtalon in your store, but you can't sell the rulebook that includes the Stormtalon's rules. How do you explain that to a customer?
This.
I'm actually trying to understand the blowback here. Those same stores have been selling the stormtalon and ork fighters without the ability to sell rules for them for some time now, because the rules only appeared in a way out of print WD or through iPad books. Seems to me as if the situation hasn't changed.
Yes, the rules for those units should have been freely available for download from GWs site or just included in the boxes to begin with. Doing otherwise was short sighted as it turns a $45 model into a $78 one, so I'm not arguing that item. I am also by no means defending GWs decision to indirectly raise prices again; which is essentially what this did.
What I'm failing to see is the actual indy retailer impact.
Now, if they want to say that:
1. GW has failed to provide the ability for an indy to stock the same items a GW branded store can carry;
2. GW pricing policies has caused local customer shifts to other rule systems; and,
3. GW indy retailer support for resupply is sporadic and unreliable.
Then I could absolutely see a store deciding to drop GW products completely and push other systems. I would even fully support their decision to do so; obviously the indy is being treated like crap. However, those are issues that have been around awhile. IMHO, it makes sense for GW to require regular stocking and sales of certain standard items like rulebooks and battleforces in order to ensure it's not just some guy and a group of friends looking to get a decent discount; however limiting an established stores ability to sell other items is silly.
That said, for the indy's in question to simply state that a book the store cannot order will not be allowed is disingenuous. After all I'm pretty sure they couldn't stock FW books or even models as even our local GW store can't, were those not recognized as playable on the indy's tables as well?
Getting back to Adepticon/Nova etc; there is zero reason for those events to ban this book. They have neither a moral nor a financial reason to be interested in how the rules for particular units are acquired. Their only concern is whether the player in question has those rules on hand. So, ruminating on that is a waste of time.
A far more rational thing might have been to just gently steer the customers towards other products - TBH I think a lot of indies do that anyway, rather than to just get mad and involve customers with GW's myopic business decisions.
But, the fact that the store owner (and others like it apparently) have taken this action makes me think of someone pushed to breaking point, and this was finally the straw that broke the camels back. Once again the Monty Python fish slapping dance comes into play - several small mackerel-slaps to the face repeatedly, and he's been upset to the point that the only way you can respond is with an almighty thwack around the chops with a fully grown haddock. It's happened before, and will happen again.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I agree, I was going to buy a Stormraven. But now im not because my store banned it for me now apprently.
Maybe as a protest i will get all the people from my store to buy it, then bring it in. I dont get how this is a "Screw You" to GW, its a screw you to customers who would otherwise be willing to spend there money there.
its a screw you to GW because the store and its customers (I imagine the store owner got the cojones to do this from his/her patrons) have decided that they are tired of what we are all tired of, making money for the sake of making money... if you squeeze every dime out of the customer you throw off the local economy of said purchasers and make yourself out to be a fat cat that cares little for the concerns of its buyers... the reason why GW has lasted this long is because it used to be a company that cared about its customers opinions (see current PP customer relations campaign).
Furthermore, these stores arent saying you cant use their models at the store, they are just saying that they no longer wish to cater to GW's money squeezing method and that they are tired of lop-sided armies...
"Baaaaaaawwwww, this new product is direct order only so I can't make money off it! Screw you GW! I'm banning your book from my store! Everyone play Warmahordes instead! BAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!"
Sigh.
Yeah, GW have some pretty stupid business practices (£50 Stormraven is pushing it a bit, GW) but this kind of response is feeble. It hurts the customers more than it hurts GW, who don't at the end of the day deserve to be "hurt" for this. They made a book direct-only. Hardly a crime against humanity.
Also, remember that even if this did hurt GW, the only people in GW who will be hurt are the poor run-of-the-mill employees, like the moldmakers, the managers, the pencil pushers, the store employees...the real "enemy", the fat cats at the head of the business will just lay them off and won't have to worry at all.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: The right thing to do would have been free PDFs, hell they used to have the entire WD blood angel codex as a PDF, free to print and play, but I'm expected to buy a mostly irrelevant to me book just to obtain necessary rules for part of my several thousand dollar army?
I'm not trying to troll , but honestly, whats another $33 + tax/shipping if its for something you already put several thousand dollars into? Its even less if you pull in some members of your gaming group and split it.
Yes, it would have been great if it was free, but knowing how GW is, did you realistically expect something substantially popular from GW to be free?
Its worth mentioning that I'm in the same position as you, I'm an Ork player as well, with at least a couple thousand put into it my army, so only part of this book appeals to me. Hell, I'm about to purchase at least 6 Krommlech Mega-Nobs and I don't even use them. I actually use Dakkajets and their variants, so I ordered the book.
jonolikespie wrote: For a company that claims to be a 'model company, not a rules company' it is amazing how much they try and squeeze people for rules.
You know they are only saying this real loud now because of the ChapterHouse lawsuit.
This only proves that they are a game company after all.
hellpato wrote: Lol, funny thought. If you play a game and your opponent go Vendetta spams. Just ask if he have Death from the Skies. If not, he can't use the Vendetta lol
Except it wouldn't work since he only needs his Codex to use the Vendetta.
hellpato wrote: Lol, funny thought. If you play a game and your opponent go Vendetta spams. Just ask if he have Death from the Skies. If not, he can't use the Vendetta lol
Except it wouldn't work since he only needs his Codex to use the Vendetta.
But didn't the Vendetta get updated in the new book?
hellpato wrote: Lol, funny thought. If you play a game and your opponent go Vendetta spams. Just ask if he have Death from the Skies. If not, he can't use the Vendetta lol
Except it wouldn't work since he only needs his Codex to use the Vendetta.
But didn't the Vendetta get updated in the new book?
It did, still not entirely sure if that actually means anything though, the book might just say that they don't get deepstrike/scout now. At which point this book becomes pointless for anyone not playing SM, BT or orks.
Mattman154 wrote: But didn't the Vendetta get updated in the new book?
Only in that it lost the Scout and Deep Strike special rules, which the FAQ update gives to the Codex anyway.
I mean really, people, this has been brought up a million times by now. Only BT/SM who use Stormtalon or Stormraven, and Orks that use flyers "need" this in any shape or form. Everyone else just needs their Codex, just like before.
But didn't the Vendetta get updated in the new book?
It is probably just a version where FAQ changes are included. It seems that only armies with WD flyers need this book, as their FAQs refer to it. Of course, it is possible that those units don't have substantial changes either, and WD article will still suffice. We'll see.
Mattman154 wrote: Just a friendly reminder that Warmachine and Hordes models all come with their own stat card. No forced book purchases after Prime/Primal (Unless you want to play Battle Engines, Collossals/Gargantuans, or Unbound).
Which, frankly, is worse by far.
Wanna know all there is to know about Chaos Space Marines? Buy the Chaos Space Marines Codex?
Wanna know all there is to know about Khador. Well,
Death from the Skies is breaking that "one-book-paradigm" and rightly getting some flak for it. But the WarmaHordes approach is like Death from the Skies issue with a massive exponent.
Except that they make books for each army too: WM gives you choices-you can buy the model with the stat card for rules only, and there is the option to buy the army book too that also has those same stats, but includes fluff and backstory. So the hardcore gamers who only want rules only need to buy the models. Those who want fluff and rules can get the book. It's set up so everybody wins. I've seen the book on a game store shelf, and almost bought it, but it was badly damaged and was listed at full price. Store employees also never even greeted my friend and me during the entire 20 minutes we were there, so I didn't even ask about discounting it to a reasonable price for damaged goods. I'll get it elsewhere.
Mattman154 wrote: Just a friendly reminder that Warmachine and Hordes models all come with their own stat card. No forced book purchases after Prime/Primal (Unless you want to play Battle Engines, Collossals/Gargantuans, or Unbound).
Which, frankly, is worse by far.
Wanna know all there is to know about Chaos Space Marines? Buy the Chaos Space Marines Codex?
Wanna know all there is to know about Khador. Well,
Death from the Skies is breaking that "one-book-paradigm" and rightly getting some flak for it. But the WarmaHordes approach is like Death from the Skies issue with a massive exponent.
Well, PP still has an online store that can be used to buy new cards as they come out. If you have a smart phone you can get the War Room app and purchase all the cards in the game and any ones new released (Not sure how Convergence of Cyriss will work).
So if you want to know the rules for Khador, you can:
Buy the physical card deck and any cards released afterwards
Buy the FoW: Khador book and any cards released afterwards
Buy the FoW: Khador book and the yearly anthology books
Buy the War Room deck for 8 dollars and have access to all their cards
Or buy every single Khador model
hellpato wrote: Lol, funny thought. If you play a game and your opponent go Vendetta spams. Just ask if he have Death from the Skies. If not, he can't use the Vendetta lol
Except it wouldn't work since he only needs his Codex to use the Vendetta.
OK, my mistake, I don't have the IG codex but you just need to change the name of the flyer to understand what I mean
Mattman154 wrote: Just a friendly reminder that Warmachine and Hordes models all come with their own stat card. No forced book purchases after Prime/Primal (Unless you want to play Battle Engines, Collossals/Gargantuans, or Unbound).
Which, frankly, is worse by far.
Wanna know all there is to know about Chaos Space Marines? Buy the Chaos Space Marines Codex?
Wanna know all there is to know about Khador. Well,
Death from the Skies is breaking that "one-book-paradigm" and rightly getting some flak for it. But the WarmaHordes approach is like Death from the Skies issue with a massive exponent.
On the topic of Battle engines, et al: the rules for the model type are included in the books, this is true, but for the individual model is still included in the box. However, as these books not only cover your newest model type for your faction, but also several new models for your faction, every other faction, fluff rules, and variant army lists, you are getting substantial value for the investment. Also, IIRC the rules for Battle Engines and Collosals are included both in the boxes for them, and for free from the PP website.
If you want to know all there is about Khador, there just so happens to be a Forces of Warmachine: Khador book, a deck of cards with all the stat cards for the army (and is about a third of the price of the book) and any of the new supplements that come out that you will likely be buying not only for your new models, model types, variant lists, and fluff, but for everyone. New stuff. In addition, I might add, to the stuff THEY GIVE AWAY FOR FREE INSIDE THEIR OWN HOBBY MAGAZINE. So this would be MORE like if DFTS included Dakka Jet, Stormtalon, updated Stormraven and Vendetta rules, as well as a Tau Flyer, Eldar Flyer, Tyranid FMC, and SoB. It then also gives you AT LEAST one extra HQ choice, Troops choice, and Heavy Choice, complete with fluff and tactical hints PER ARMY, but also didn't contradict the free FAQ information that was on the website or model info distributed from another publication.
Nagashek wrote: Also, IIRC the rules for Battle Engines and Collosals are included both in the boxes for them, and for free from the PP website.
Unfortunately I think that is incorrect. The BE and Collosals specific special rules are not found in the boxes, just the stat cards (Granted for Collosals and Gargantuans they have the unique power attacks on the cards, just not things like 'they all have Pathfinder')
There's also War Room, which if you're using as a (non-cards) rules reference is free and has the complete Colossal/Gargantuan/Battle Engine/everything else rules.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: The right thing to do would have been free PDFs, hell they used to have the entire WD blood angel codex as a PDF, free to print and play, but I'm expected to buy a mostly irrelevant to me book just to obtain necessary rules for part of my several thousand dollar army?
I'm not trying to troll , but honestly, whats another $33 + tax/shipping if its for something you already put several thousand dollars into? Its even less if you pull in some members of your gaming group and split it.
Yes, it would have been great if it was free, but knowing how GW is, did you realistically expect something substantially popular from GW to be free?
Its worth mentioning that I'm in the same position as you, I'm an Ork player as well, with at least a couple thousand put into it my army, so only part of this book appeals to me. Hell, I'm about to purchase at least 6 Krommlech Mega-Nobs and I don't even use them. I actually use Dakkajets and their variants, so I ordered the book.
unfortunately this is the mind set that leaks money... No offense dude, just using your quote as an example:
If you start say with a space marine battleforce, bought from a GW store, and say "You know? Im gonna need an HQ, its only 15-10 more dollars." so you buy it... at the GW store, the clerk notices your plight and adds his two cents... "Hey! you know for 45 more dollars you can get the stormtalon gunship! its great addition to an already great army..." you think about it for second and realize "I think I actually like the look of this model, I guess I'll get it"... when ringing you up, the clerk mentions "hey I noticed you didnt grab the codex for the army! you will actually need this to play... do wanna go ahead and grab that too?" you think about it realizing "Crap! I was going to play this weekend at a friends house... oh well, guess I need it" so you
toss that in the pile... He rings you up and you pay for your products, as you grab your stuff the clerk mentions "Hey I almost forgot, we have this new supplement available for all our armies that has important rule updates for all our armies (near bold-faced lie, yet a common product sales tactic), you should look into picking that up as well since you bought a flyer"... a slight silence as you agitation rises and you ask "how do I get it"... you have been hooked lined and sinkered by GW into saying "whats a little more icing on the cake?"
using the same scenario as a new customer at MOST IRs... Go in, grab the battle force and head to the register... Clerk asks "find everything ok?"... you say "yeah I think so" clerk says "ok appreciate your business, come back and see us again"... person goes on their way...
this is a large distributor vs. small distributor cookie cutter scenario that you can use with most business', and they teach it at business classes... now, I ask you which is more toxic for the gaming community? a persuassionary approach that nickels and dimes the customer? or an honest friendly approach that wont make the customer feel like a fool for their purchase...
do we know why GW's business model has changed to young teens and new customers? because they'll believe anything you tell them... and if you tell them when they walk into a GW store that something is cool, new and necessary? they're going to believe you and buy it...
and we wonder why mom and pops grocery store goes out of business when a walmart opens up next door...
Right the gif is the problem not the people telling other posters to GTFO, or advocating on insinuating use illegal downloads. I thought those were against Dakka rules?
I believe both were addressed and if you have any further issues with moderation or the posting of gifs, please message me and keep OT discussion out of the thread. Thanks.
Surely it's their shop, so their rules, and if they say certain rules are not permited - they're not used. It's no different to a GW store saying you can't use substitutions or non GW figures.
Obviously beating a dead horse here, but as much as you want it to be like that, and as much as I don't care either way... it's not like that as long as actual WH40kBRB/FAQs and even GW-organized tournaments say they're official/legal for regular 40k. Until that time they're nothing but an optional expansion which opponents have to agree on being allowed or not.
I thought GW doesn't organize tournaments anymore. Their for what's allowed and disallowed is up to individual TO's.
This is the kind of issue that, more even than the ridiculously overpriced hardback codices, makes me think it's time too take advantage of the fact that you can't protect the rules of a game as your own intellectual property -- just the expression of the rules.
If someone were to release the ork and SM flier rules, newly formatted and very slightly rewritten (so that the rules were identical but the way they were phrased was slightly different), as a free PDF -- couldn't we all just make use of that?
I think it would be hilarious if GW just decided to cut off the faucet to these stores and suspend their accounts. The day a game store tries to push me away from one game and toward another is the day I stop patronizing them. It's the reason I stopped buying from weyland at all.
Waethion wrote: You think it would be hilarious if a store near you stopped carrying GW products and organizing Warhammer events? Okay....
I'm pretty sure he was saying that it would be hilarious if Games Workshop stopped selling to the retailers who are "banning" Death From the Skies while trying to push a trade-in 'deal' for a system that the shop has decided to throw their flag behind.
Waethion wrote: You think it would be hilarious if a store near you stopped carrying GW products and organizing Warhammer events? Okay....
I'm pretty sure he was saying that it would be hilarious if Games Workshop stopped selling to the retailers who are "banning" Death From the Skies while trying to push a trade-in 'deal' for a system that the shop has decided to throw their flag behind.
Almost as amusing as the lawsuits the stores would counter with.
Kanluwen wrote: I'm pretty sure he was saying that it would be hilarious if Games Workshop stopped selling to the retailers who are "banning" Death From the Skies while trying to push a trade-in 'deal' for a system that the shop has decided to throw their flag behind.
Yeah, and would he be happy if that was his own LGS? 'Cos it is someone's LGS.
You are not entitled to anything. The fact that so many people equate a single purchase from a company to a lifetime of support with no further cost is hilarious. Do you also feel entitled to free DLC from a video game because you bought the game? Rules change in wargaming, and those rules changes necessitate new books.
Red Herring: DLC for a video game =/= Tabletop war game rules change or update. No, I dont not feel entitled to these rules and thats the point you are missing. This is a grab for money, any way you slice it from GW. The fact they have made this non-optional for armies with fliers is proof.
I'm not a white knight, but I was wondering when someone was going to drop that. The fact is Dakka is so skewed towards being rabidly anti-GW anyone trying to remain relatively neutral immediately gets labeled a white knight, or gets shouted down and told to leave.
Appeal to Authority: Please read the other half of my statement sir. You seemed to have gotten caught up on the first end of that statement. The fact you baulked as such can only lead the rest of us, your peers to view you as such as you have yet to put up a counter-claim to this notion with supporting evidence.
I leave on this remark: This is naught but a money grab from GW. It should be viewed as such with the final sentiments of greedy entity greedily changing the rules that they have abandoned via their testimony within the Chapter House lawsuit.
Waethion wrote: You think it would be hilarious if a store near you stopped carrying GW products and organizing Warhammer events? Okay....
I'm pretty sure he was saying that it would be hilarious if Games Workshop stopped selling to the retailers who are "banning" Death From the Skies while trying to push a trade-in 'deal' for a system that the shop has decided to throw their flag behind.
Almost as amusing as the lawsuits the stores would counter with.
Because GW loves spending time in court.
What lawsuit could the store counter with though?
I mean this as a genuine question, I'm sure one of the Dakka Lawyer Brigade will show up and answer it at some point.
Waethion wrote:Yeah, and would he be happy if that was his own LGS? 'Cos it is someone's LGS.
It might be someone's LGS, but it is a LGS that has decided to be as publicly adversarial as possible to a distributor/supplier of product. That adversarial stance might be warranted, but it doesn't change the fact that it might not have been the smartest way to go about the situation if you wanted to get your point across to GW.
I'm wondering how come some people see this (banning DftS) as any different from some tourney organizers who won't allow FW rules...
FW's rules are just as official as any rules published by GW, the only difference being that it is a web-exclusive available only trough order on FW's website.
Waethion wrote: You think it would be hilarious if a store near you stopped carrying GW products and organizing Warhammer events? Okay....
I'm pretty sure he was saying that it would be hilarious if Games Workshop stopped selling to the retailers who are "banning" Death From the Skies while trying to push a trade-in 'deal' for a system that the shop has decided to throw their flag behind.
Almost as amusing as the lawsuits the stores would counter with.
Because GW loves spending time in court.
What lawsuit could the store counter with though?
I mean this as a genuine question, I'm sure one of the Dakka Lawyer Brigade will show up and answer it at some point.
I'm not overly sure about the US or individual states legislation, but the Office of Fair Trading would likely be a port of call in the UK. Unless these retailers could be shown to have been poor at paying the bills or other directly adverse actions, GW could not simply stop trading with them on a whim in the UK.
I would imagine there's something similar here in the US.
jonolikespie wrote: For a company that claims to be a 'model company, not a rules company' it is amazing how much they try and squeeze people for rules.
You know they are only saying this real loud now because of the ChapterHouse lawsuit.
This only proves that they are a game company after all.
Apart from the fact that they think up fancy concepts, and then think up rules for them.
Not the other way around.
If they made rules for models, and then designed models to go with those rules, then maybe I could accept them being referred to as a "Game company", but they don't. They make models, and then happen to make rules that go with them.
jonolikespie wrote: For a company that claims to be a 'model company, not a rules company' it is amazing how much they try and squeeze people for rules.
You know they are only saying this real loud now because of the ChapterHouse lawsuit.
This only proves that they are a game company after all.
Apart from the fact that they think up fancy concepts, and then think up rules for them.
Not the other way around.
If they made rules for models, and then designed models to go with those rules, then maybe I could accept them being referred to as a "Game company", but they don't. They make models, and then happen to make rules that go with them.
Game design is really weird, the process can really go either way. GW coming up with the design and fluff concepts before the rules does not preclude them from being a game company.
Kanluwen wrote: It might be someone's LGS, but it is a LGS that has decided to be as publicly adversarial as possible to a distributor/supplier of product. That adversarial stance might be warranted, but it doesn't change the fact that it might not have been the smartest way to go about the situation if you wanted to get your point across to GW.
That wasn't the point: Cincydooley apparently thinks it would be hilarious if GW shut down sales of their product (and most likely by extension tournaments and other events) in certain gaming stores - which IMO is a stupid thing to say.
) said book is not able to be purchased by independents and can olny be bought from the 
themselves right?
