d-usa wrote: BDG and Gnome Games are in a hard place.
By standing up to the big bully they risk becoming bullies themselves by telling their customers what they can and cannot do at their stores.
If BDG and Gnome Games would simply say "If you didn't buy it in my store, you cannot play it in my store" (which is basically the message) the community would not respond so favorably I think. Their only possible redeeming factor is that the customers are not the target of the action, only collateral damage.
To me it seems more like a case where BDG and Gnome Games are protecting themselves from the "bully" by taking the "bully's" other "victims", and instituting a compulsary militia that actively disadvantages the other "victims" whilst not really doing much to the "bully", and just irritating the customers.
(Bully and Victim are in speech marks because I actively dislike bullying metaphors)
Kanluwen wrote: It might be someone's LGS, but it is a LGS that has decided to be as publicly adversarial as possible to a distributor/supplier of product. That adversarial stance might be warranted, but it doesn't change the fact that it might not have been the smartest way to go about the situation if you wanted to get your point across to GW.
That wasn't the point: Cincydooley apparently thinks it would be hilarious if GW shut down sales of their product (and most likely by extension tournaments and other events) in certain gaming stores - which IMO is a stupid thing to say.
It would be hilarious though, that's the thing.
In this particular instance, the owner of a chain of stores has put his customers into the middle of an issue which should have been kept between him and his supplier/distributor to begin with.
To add to the whole thing, the owner is actively running an "exchange" program encouraging GW players to turn in their purchased materials for credit towards Privateer Press product.
Kanluwen wrote: t would be hilarious though, that's the thing.
In this particular instance, the owner of a chain of stores has put his customers into the middle of an issue which should have been kept between him and his supplier/distributor to begin with.
To add to the whole thing, the owner is actively running an "exchange" program encouraging GW players to turn in their purchased materials for credit towards Privateer Press product.
Discussion about whether or not it's the best course of action for the LGS aside, you are basically saying that because the LGS is hurting its customers instead of/in addition to GW, it would be funny if this backfired on the LGS by killing their GW scene? Who do you think that would hurt?
jonolikespie wrote: For a company that claims to be a 'model company, not a rules company' it is amazing how much they try and squeeze people for rules.
You know they are only saying this real loud now because of the ChapterHouse lawsuit.
This only proves that they are a game company after all.
Apart from the fact that they think up fancy concepts, and then think up rules for them.
Not the other way around.
If they made rules for models, and then designed models to go with those rules, then maybe I could accept them being referred to as a "Game company", but they don't. They make models, and then happen to make rules that go with them.
Game design is really weird, the process can really go either way. GW coming up with the design and fluff concepts before the rules does not preclude them from being a game company.
I should probably be a bit clearer.
I will accept that they are, at least partially, a games company, but they are a games company as a small side section to encourage people to purchase their models.
They don't make models to encourage people to buy the rules, the make rules to encourage people to buy models.
I'm not referring to making the stats for specific models being better or worse depending on their £ cost, but the fact that people wouldn't buy as many models if they didn't have a book that said "you need to have this many models to battle".
Also, as a side point, I don't recall seeing many cases of people that only buy GW rules, and no models to go with them (even people using models from other companies is still people buying models due to having rules that encourage their use), whereas there are many cases of people buying the models, but no rules to go with them (I know that I do, though I am tempted to get back into battling, as I hadn't realised that Orks had a flyer now)
Kanluwen wrote: t would be hilarious though, that's the thing.
In this particular instance, the owner of a chain of stores has put his customers into the middle of an issue which should have been kept between him and his supplier/distributor to begin with.
To add to the whole thing, the owner is actively running an "exchange" program encouraging GW players to turn in their purchased materials for credit towards Privateer Press product.
Discussion about whether or not it's the best course of action for the LGS aside, you are basically saying that because the LGS is hurting its customers instead of/in addition to GW, it would be funny if this backfired on the LGS by killing their GW scene? Who do you think that would hurt?
I don't recall saying it "would hurt" anyone?
It would be an amusing situation to anyone looking from the sidelines. I'm fairly certain that some of the 40k players in the region might even get a chuckle out of it, just from the way that this particular store has taken a public "grand stand" against the bullying of Games Workshop and begun a push for their 40k players to convert to another system.
Kanluwen wrote: It would be an amusing situation to anyone looking from the sidelines. I'm fairly certain that some of the 40k players in the region might even get a chuckle out of it, just from the way that this particular store has taken a public "grand stand" against the bullying of Games Workshop and begun a push for their 40k players to convert to another system.
Okay, if that's your cup of tea. Perhaps you come from an area with an abundance of gaming locations or something, but I for one wouldn't find it funny if another independent disappeared.
I tried to read all of the thread, but its quite the task considering it basically started at Page 11 by the time I saw it(and its 2AM in Afghanistan, time to rack out) So I'll just throw in my 2 cents really quick.
LGS wants to ban it? Fine, their decision. Whether it is good or bad is their problem. I don't plan on buying this book, so I don't really care(typical attitude, yes)
However, it bugs me a bit that this is an ENGLISH book only. English is my primary language, so for me that's not an issue. What about our other gaming brethren that don't speak or read english as a primary language? I think its kind of a kick in the dick to them from GW by producing this book in english only. Not fair at all in my opinion.
Now, I see a few reasons for this:
1.) They don't like non-english speaking countries(highly doubtful)
2.) They are seeing how it will sell in the manner in which they are doing it, and will produce it in other languages later down the road
3.) Or its a test bed to see how well their shenanigans hold up in the market
a.) by producing a book that is GW Direct only(though my LGS has said they are ordering it)
b.) community testing of the rules for a later release in which they plan on potentially boning customers in the future somehow.
c.) to see what they can get away with before people reach their breaking point
Don't flame me for my opinion, its wasted energy typing. Of all the complaints I've seen about this book, or the way people view it nobody seems to have brought this to light.
I've deleted a bunch of off-topic posts (and accidentally deleted one I later decided should have been kept, but was quoted entire by another person, so the thoughts are still in the thread; sorry). Please stay on topic.
yeah,
All we can do is tell GW what we think they are doing wrong and hope they listen.
So I wrote GW a letter. pointing out why I'm not happy with them at the moment...
email them yourselves if you feel like letting them know how you feel. uk.custserv@gwplc.com
Spoiler:
Sirs,
I hope at this time of public pressure you take the time to think and realise what it is your doing wrong.
I've complained multiple times about being treated poorly as a WD subscriber, receiving my publication frequently after it's street date because you post them out late and your response has been 'that's how we're doing it.'
Your not exactly listening are you?
With regards to the Fliers book, (I've already purchased it. hope the fluff/mission content is good)
I believe that the rules for the Ork DakkaJets/Bommer and Spacemarine Stormtalon should be available as free PDFs...
people who want to use these already have codexs and models. Asking for more is pure greed!
You've given away free unit pdfs before when you released the Eldar night spinner.
I thought that was the start of great things from GW. New units added to a codex for free mid cycle! Yes Please!
Please go back to that kind of thinking! your customers loved it! bought the models.
Add to this the SpaceMarine IP rants your having and you can see why you come across as a Bully.
No one likes a Bully. You know this so why are you acting like one?
I've taken the time to write to you with my ideas and concerns.
Please take the time and consider my email and get back to me.
Panic...
GW fan.
PS Also removing a customer interaction point during a crisis smacks of cowardice.
You don't see tesco deleting their facebook page at the first sign of horse trouble.
So, as an Independent Retailer, I had an initial knee-jerk to this release. How *DARE* they? How *dare* they release a book and give me limited access to it?
But then I considered the book. What is this book? A glorified FAQ. It reprints material from an OOP book. (Which in itself was about three or four issues of White Dwarf material, really. And I still have it on my shelf mind you...) It reprints OOP White Dwarf material. (Which I do share the sentiment that it *should* have been a downloadable page. Or included with every instruction sheet for the darn things.) And FAQs for every 5th edition book that had flyers. (All the changes are in the FAQs on the website for those.)
So then who is going to buy it? Space Mehreens. Black Templars. Orks..... And that's about it? How many people are going to want their own copy of it? How many groups are going to pick one up? No, this isn't a book to put on my shelf. It's a book for people to ask me to order Which I can, as I have access to Available to Order items. GW never said, "Except for these Models/ Items..." with that. By making it ATO, they indirectly told me, "You don't want to keep this in stock." Why not? Few people will want to buy it and it'll be obsolete once those three Codexes are re-designed.
Unrelated to that, with this thread having devolved into PP vs GW argument... PP fanboys, you are not doing your game a service by attacking GW or advertising switching games because of this book. In my eyes it only serves to make you look like disgruntled former GW gamers. If you want to showcase your game, showcase it as an awesome game, not as a "better alternative to GW."
Kanluwen wrote: It might be someone's LGS, but it is a LGS that has decided to be as publicly adversarial as possible to a distributor/supplier of product. That adversarial stance might be warranted, but it doesn't change the fact that it might not have been the smartest way to go about the situation if you wanted to get your point across to GW.
That wasn't the point: Cincydooley apparently thinks it would be hilarious if GW shut down sales of their product (and most likely by extension tournaments and other events) in certain gaming stores - which IMO is a stupid thing to say.
It would be hilarious though, that's the thing.
In this particular instance, the owner of a chain of stores has put his customers into the middle of an issue which should have been kept between him and his supplier/distributor to begin with.
To add to the whole thing, the owner is actively running an "exchange" program encouraging GW players to turn in their purchased materials for credit towards Privateer Press product.
Yes. I maintain it would be very funny. If they're offering a GW for Privateer trade in, why not, were you GW, Let them eat at the table they set and make them ONLY sell Privateer products, since they're so keen on pushing them. It's more this trade in BS and thr fact that theyre putting their player base smack in thr middle of the dispute, rather than the fruitless boycott itself, that bothers me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nice post Azakael
Panic wrote: yeah, All we can do is tell GW what we think they are doing wrong and hope they listen. So I wrote GW a letter. pointing out why I'm not happy with them at the moment...
email them yourselves if you feel like letting them know how you feel. uk.custserv@gwplc.com
Spoiler:
Sirs, I hope at this time of public pressure you take the time to think and realise what it is you are doing wrong.
I've complained multiple times about being treated poorly as a WD subscriber, receiving my publication frequently after it's street date because you post them out late and your response has been 'that's how we're doing it.' You're not exactly listening, are you?
With regards to the Fliers book, (I've already purchased it. I hope the fluff/mission content is good) I believe that the rules for the Ork DakkaJets/Bommer and Space Marine Stormtalon should be available as free PDFs... people who want to use these already have codexs and models, asking for more is pure greed!
You've given away free unit .pdf files before, when you released the Eldar night spinner. I thought that was the start of great things from GW. New units added to a codex for free mid cycle! Yes Please! Please go back to that kind of thinking! Your customers loved it! They bought the models!
Add to this the SpaceMarine IP rants you're having and you can see why you come across as a Bully. No one likes a Bully. You know this, so why are you acting like one?
I've taken the time to write to you with my ideas and concerns. Please take the time and consider my email and get back to me.
Panic... GW fan.
PS Also removing a customer interaction point during a crisis smacks of cowardice. You don't see tesco deleting their facebook page at the first sign of horse trouble.
Panic...
Have you already sent this? Because there are a few spelling/grammar mistakes that might dilute the message slightly, and whilst I find some of the complaints on the forum rather over the top and nonsensical, I agree wholeheartedly with the overall message of your email, so want to help I've corrected them in the quote if you haven't already sent the email
3.) Or its a test bed to see how well their shenanigans hold up in the market
a.) by producing a book that is GW Direct only(though my LGS has said they are ordering it)
b.) community testing of the rules for a later release in which they plan on potentially boning customers in the future somehow.
c.) to see what they can get away with before people reach their breaking point
This is about what I was thinking. It seemed like CoF got cut down a bit because people could see how limited it was, though every "campaign" so far has seemed that way to me just some simple design issues. Still perhaps they wanted to keep people from seeing the book and calling it garbage and killing possible sales. Which honestly seems stupid. If I NEED the book for my unit updates, it would make far more sense for everyone to be able to access it easier.
You know, unless they want to hit you up for that shipping charge or make an extra $20 minimum off of you to avoid it. I can't see why any tournament would ever require this book really if not everyone is even going to be familiar with it. Optional I get...but balance changes should never be optional if there are any.
Azakael wrote: So, as an Independent Retailer, I had an initial knee-jerk to this release. How *DARE* they? How *dare* they release a book and give me limited access to it?
But then I considered the book. What is this book? A glorified FAQ. It reprints material from an OOP book. (Which in itself was about three or four issues of White Dwarf material, really. And I still have it on my shelf mind you...) It reprints OOP White Dwarf material. (Which I do share the sentiment that it *should* have been a downloadable page. Or included with every instruction sheet for the darn things.) And FAQs for every 5th edition book that had flyers. (All the changes are in the FAQs on the website for those.)
So then who is going to buy it? Space Mehreens. Black Templars. Orks..... And that's about it? How many people are going to want their own copy of it? How many groups are going to pick one up? No, this isn't a book to put on my shelf. It's a book for people to ask me to order Which I can, as I have access to Available to Order items. GW never said, "Except for these Models/ Items..." with that. By making it ATO, they indirectly told me, "You don't want to keep this in stock." Why not? Few people will want to buy it and it'll be obsolete once those three Codexes are re-designed.
Unrelated to that, with this thread having devolved into PP vs GW argument... PP fanboys, you are not doing your game a service by attacking GW or advertising switching games because of this book. In my eyes it only serves to make you look like disgruntled former GW gamers. If you want to showcase your game, showcase it as an awesome game, not as a "better alternative to GW."
This is what I've been trying to tell my freinds, but far better put.
Panic wrote: yeah,
All we can do is tell GW what we think they are doing wrong and hope they listen.
So I wrote GW a letter. pointing out why I'm not happy with them at the moment...
email them yourselves if you feel like letting them know how you feel. uk.custserv@gwplc.com
Spoiler:
Sirs,
I hope at this time of public pressure you take the time to think and realise what it is your doing wrong.
I've complained multiple times about being treated poorly as a WD subscriber, receiving my publication frequently after it's street date because you post them out late and your response has been 'that's how we're doing it.'
Your not exactly listening are you?
With regards to the Fliers book, (I've already purchased it. hope the fluff/mission content is good)
I believe that the rules for the Ork DakkaJets/Bommer and Spacemarine Stormtalon should be available as free PDFs...
people who want to use these already have codexs and models. Asking for more is pure greed!
You've given away free unit pdfs before when you released the Eldar night spinner.
I thought that was the start of great things from GW. New units added to a codex for free mid cycle! Yes Please!
Please go back to that kind of thinking! your customers loved it! bought the models.
Add to this the SpaceMarine IP rants your having and you can see why you come across as a Bully.
No one likes a Bully. You know this so why are you acting like one?
I've taken the time to write to you with my ideas and concerns.
Please take the time and consider my email and get back to me.
Panic...
GW fan.
PS Also removing a customer interaction point during a crisis smacks of cowardice.
You don't see tesco deleting their facebook page at the first sign of horse trouble.
Panic...
Sorry Panic, your email has inflammatory tones and states premises which GW will see as 'false' from the very beginning. Your first line is rude.
And there is hardly a 'crisis' point going on where a FB page is needed. That is a hyperbolic exaggeration... and an example of why they got rid of them was because people were constantly posting inflamitory and exaggerated comments which needed to be cleaned out.
If you wanted an honest answer, you should have stuck to one topic... and kept it professional. You failed to do that so you will be ignored and get a form response which is the opposite of what you wanted. The IP book issue and the facebook page were unneeded in your email and while are issues, turned a real email into a troll post in the eyes of whoever reads it.
I would have sent this:
Spoiler:
Dear Games Workshop Customer service,
With regards to the Fliers book, (I've already purchased it. hope the fluff/mission content is good) I believe that the rules for the Ork DakkaJets/Bommer and Spacemarine Stormtalon should be available as free PDFs... people who want to use these already have codexs and models and possibly previous WD printings or Digital downloads.
You've given away free unit pdfs before when you released the Eldar night spinner. I thought that was the start of great things from GW. New units added to a codex for free mid cycle! Yes Please! Please go back to that kind of thinking! your customers loved it! bought the models.
Do you think we will ever see a release of individual unit rules on the website for people who bought and are using the WD printing? Will the Digital rules for individual flyers already out be updated along with the new rules from Death From the skies? WIll I be able to ever order this through my local Gaming store who supports and promotes GW products?
Please take the time and consider my email and get back to me. Thank you.
Panic...
GW fan.
All you did was rant at them, unless you give a customer service person a question to answer, you get a 'thanks for your feedback'. If you ask a question, many groups have requirements for at least a response to the question. Being simple and non-adversarial will help.
Also include your address and phone number... I get calls from companies all the time when I 'complain question' via email/written letter and provide a phone number.
Panic wrote: So I wrote GW a letter. pointing out why I'm not happy with them at the moment...
I hate to be the one to say this Panic, but the next time you send a formal complaint to GW (or any corporate entity) please, for the love of God, learn the difference between “your” and “you’re”. It’s very easy to ignore a complaint E-mail. It’s even easier when the guy who wrote it didn’t even hit spell check.
In all honesty, I'm pretty sure that GW customer service won't have any interest in it at all. Or any ability to influence it.
Writing it on paper, sending it through the mail and addressing it to a specific person (even if it is... Jervis), has a chance in hell, at least, of it getting taken along to a meeting before it is ignored.
One wonders if, since this is English only, do the NON-English FAQ's just include the changes properly and for free, or simply leave the WD rules intact and in place?
Writing it on paper, sending it through the mail and addressing it to a specific person (even if it is... Jervis), has a chance in hell, at least, of it getting taken along to a meeting before it is ignored.
People here and elsewhere really must distinguish between our friendly neighborhood design team types and the corporate senior management. Jervis has absolutely no bearing on anything other than steering the rules and creative department and even then he and the others are entirely at the mercy of financial considerations and instruction handed to them by the corporate senior management.
The design team are not sitting in the same board meetings that Kirby and co are, if they attend these meetings at all they will be going to them to present or to give an opinion on how the customer base might receive a new product, but they are not decision makers in this regard.
All signs point to corporate senior management really not giving a fudge. Every decision about this must have already been worked out to benefit their own personal interests.
There is nothing any letter from any of us could even possible do to influence them that hasn't already been said to them from people within the company, like Rick Priestley, Bob Naismith, Jake Thornton or any other of the dozens of people which have left over the years to found their own companies.
So, accepting that your interests as a player are in complete opposition to the interests of corporate, who does that leave that you can have influence on, in even the tiniest way?
The design studio.
If Jervis, Phil Kelly or (gasp) even Matt Ward really start seeing articulate emails saying, "we are tired of getting "messed with" by your bosses" it might do some, tiny shred of good. Even if it is just them deciding they've had enough of it and doing a Priestley. Or even a Livingstone, and going off to work in computer games.
Goliath wrote: ... There are a few spelling/grammar mistakes that might dilute the message slightly, and whilst I find some of the complaints on the forum rather over the top and nonsensical, I agree wholeheartedly with the overall message of your email, so want to help I've corrected them in the quote if you haven't already sent the email
H.B.M.C. wrote:I hate to be the one to say this Panic, but the next time you send a formal complaint to GW (or any corporate entity) please, for the love of God, learn the difference between “your” and “you’re”. It’s very easy to ignore a complaint E-mail. It’s even easier when the guy who wrote it didn’t even hit spell check.
already sent : ( I'll send them a FAQ in a couple of months.
nkelsch wrote:Sorry Panic, your email has inflammatory tones and states premises which GW will see as 'false' from the very beginning. Your first line is rude.
while still inviting the email to be read? As that was kinda the point..
Writing it on paper, sending it through the mail and addressing it to a specific person (even if it is... Jervis), has a chance in hell, at least, of it getting taken along to a meeting before it is ignored.
People here and elsewhere really must distinguish between our friendly neighborhood design team types and the corporate senior management. Jervis has absolutely no bearing on anything other than steering the rules and creative department and even then he and the others are entirely at the mercy of financial considerations and instruction handed to them by the corporate senior management.
The design team are not sitting in the same board meetings that Kirby and co are, if they attend these meetings at all they will be going to them to present or to give an opinion on how the customer base might receive a new product, but they are not decision makers in this regard.
I expect that the customer service team will be asked for a round up of consumer reaction, if I can influance that I'm winning, If at the very least they pass along a message of how many angry letters they've recieved I'll have added +1 to that list.
In this particular instance, the owner of a chain of stores has put his customers into the middle of an issue which should have been kept between him and his supplier/distributor to begin with.
I'm not sure how this was kept between the owner of the store and GW when the whole thing started by GW interfering with his business and telling his customers where to shop for the next rule book. GW put the customers into this by dictating their buying conditions, forcing them to go to GW directly. I just don't see how anyone can say the owner should keep it between him and GW when GW made this a contest over the customers in the first place.
Didn't the whole thing start with GW lying to LGS owners in an attempt to turn customers away from them?
Polonius wrote: Is it just me, or would a classier approach to this would have been the store telling everybody not to bother buying it, because there will be a store copy available at all times, including tournaments, so nobody need buy their own?
This is a good idea.
I cannot advocate downloading and copying as this is illegal but I understand if people do it.
In a GW world, everything is a premium a should be paid for nowadays. This is why websites exist like Dakka that dispense free advice and alternate rules to use with your models. Just Dave for example has done his own home brew codices.
Grimtuff wrote: From what I gather after timetowaste85 so graciously posted something that should have been in the OP (thankyou ) said book is not able to be purchased by independents and can olny be bought from the GW website and/or stores.
Surely this isn't the first time retailers have been unable to order something from GW? Why the outrage with this?
Plus it seems a little suspect that both the quoted retailers suddenly go "But Warmachine y'all!!! Buy that!!!".
Finally read through most the thread and agree, he is throwing a hissy fit because GW is selling a direct only book? I'm curious if he allows WMH players to use the Extreme or alternative sculpts that PP sells exclusively? Is he going to ban playing Kingdom Death or Sedition Wars (is there a street date?) at his store because they can't be bought through his store?
This sounds like an excuse to generate sales and push WMH at the store? Thought there was something more to this whole direct thing thread, but just an excuse for the usual anti-GW rants.
Note: Nothing directed at you HBMC, you just asked the question I was going to and everyone seemed to ignore.
silent25 wrote: Finally read through most the thread and agree, he is throwing a hissy fit because GW is selling a direct only book? I'm curious if he allows WMH players to use the Extreme or alternative sculpts that PP sells exclusively? Is he going to ban playing Kingdom Death or Sedition Wars (is there a street date?) at his store because they can't be bought through his store?
Except there are two huge differences here:
1) Those companies (presumably) don't lie and evade when an independent retailer asks them about an upcoming product. If you've read this thread you've seen the statements from at least one independent store owner saying that they tried to contact GW for information about the book and how to get it for their customers and GW blatantly lied about it and said that they didn't know anything about a new release. And this was long after the point when the rumors had been confirmed past any real doubt and we all knew what was coming.
2) Those companies aren't taking away products that used to be available for independent retailers to sell. The expectation in the past was that direct-only products were the niche market stuff that didn't sell often enough to justify keeping it in stock in a retail store, but this is a core rulebook that people are going to expect to buy in a store. But now independent store owners have to tell their customers sorry, we can sell you a Storm Talon but GW won't let us sell you the rules. Why? Because GW makes more short-term profit that way.
In short, other companies aren't trying to screw over their retail stores just to make a bit of short-term profit at the expense of long-term business. And when a company views you as nothing more than a resource to be exploited, well, it's not really very hard to return the favor and ban the offending product.
"Dear Games Workshop. You have made it less than desirable to sell your games and allow our place space to be used for your exclusive sales to the customers we take care of. For that reason all content in your new Aerial Combat Book is banned for all of our events. The book will not be allowed in our stores and is considered contraband.
If your customers spend most of their hobby money in YOUR store, for example $82.50 on a Stormraven, etc., you might NOT want to ban them from using the rules for those models in your store, it's punishing them not GW and they may go elsewhere. It seems to me someone didn't think that through carefully and the unintended consequences could cost your little retail hobby store a number of customers.
However, the plan to entice customers to switch to other game systems by offering incentives for doing so is brilliant and strikes right at GW while leaving your customers free to enjoy whatever game they wish.
Grimtuff wrote: From what I gather after timetowaste85 so graciously posted something that should have been in the OP (thankyou ) said book is not able to be purchased by independents and can olny be bought from the GW website and/or stores.
Surely this isn't the first time retailers have been unable to order something from GW? Why the outrage with this?
Plus it seems a little suspect that both the quoted retailers suddenly go "But Warmachine y'all!!! Buy that!!!".
Finally read through most the thread and agree, he is throwing a hissy fit because GW is selling a direct only book? I'm curious if he allows WMH players to use the Extreme or alternative sculpts that PP sells exclusively? Is he going to ban playing Kingdom Death or Sedition Wars (is there a street date?) at his store because they can't be bought through his store?
This sounds like an excuse to generate sales and push WMH at the store? Thought there was something more to this whole direct thing thread, but just an excuse for the usual anti-GW rants.
Note: Nothing directed at you HBMC, you just asked the question I was going to and everyone seemed to ignore.
Don't know about the first store in the blog post, but Black Diamond does have a few blog posts on their sales breakdowns in 2012:
The tl;dr version (don't live near the store, so couldn't say for sure):
1. The store carries mostly PP and GW in terms of miniatures: based on the reply to a commenter from Wyrd they probably don't carry a lot of the smaller wargames like Malifaux, Infinity, etc. (or at least not in quantities above the "Coca Cola line").
2. PP's base is growing at the store, while GW's is stagnant or shrinking.
3. If you're getting fed up of dealing with GW but want to keep your tabletop customers, why not try encouraging them to jump ship to another miniatures game that's popular at the store?
Ignoring that the post offering the trade in has been deleted after it stirred up controversy, the idea seems to be driven more by game store pragmatism rather than any sort of affection for PP.
Nagashek wrote: One wonders if, since this is English only, do the NON-English FAQ's just include the changes properly and for free, or simply leave the WD rules intact and in place?
I can't speak for any other country, but since there is no Japanese edition of WD, there is no basis for comparison.
In the Ork FAQ, all the stuff about flyers has been struck out, with a note added to refer to the "Death from the Skies" supplement, with a Japanese PDF to be announced "at a future date."
if a black templar or vanilla wants to use the raven just say that your friend plays blood angels/grey knights so you already memorized the rules for the stormraven.
as long as you have your main codex it would very VERY dickheadish of them to say anything. If they press the issue tell them youre not going to spend 40 bucks for a single page of rules that you already know. if they still want to be donkey-caves about then leave.
silent25 wrote: Finally read through most the thread and agree, he is throwing a hissy fit because GW is selling a direct only book? I'm curious if he allows WMH players to use the Extreme or alternative sculpts that PP sells exclusively? Is he going to ban playing Kingdom Death or Sedition Wars (is there a street date?) at his store because they can't be bought through his store?
Except there are two huge differences here:
1) Those companies (presumably) don't lie and evade when an independent retailer asks them about an upcoming product. If you've read this thread you've seen the statements from at least one independent store owner saying that they tried to contact GW for information about the book and how to get it for their customers and GW blatantly lied about it and said that they didn't know anything about a new release. And this was long after the point when the rumors had been confirmed past any real doubt and we all knew what was coming.
2) Those companies aren't taking away products that used to be available for independent retailers to sell. The expectation in the past was that direct-only products were the niche market stuff that didn't sell often enough to justify keeping it in stock in a retail store, but this is a core rulebook that people are going to expect to buy in a store. But now independent store owners have to tell their customers sorry, we can sell you a Storm Talon but GW won't let us sell you the rules. Why? Because GW makes more short-term profit that way.
In short, other companies aren't trying to screw over their retail stores just to make a bit of short-term profit at the expense of long-term business. And when a company views you as nothing more than a resource to be exploited, well, it's not really very hard to return the favor and ban the offending product.
Except that isn't what the original announcement from the store is about. He only complained about not being able sell the book and banning people playing it. You are adding other people's stories to justify it. If those other reasons were the cause, it should have been mentioned. The original announcement was nothing more than a blatant sales pitch. Given what people some posters said about the store, GW sales were never an issue at the store.
The tl;dr version (don't live near the store, so couldn't say for sure):
1. The store carries mostly PP and GW in terms of miniatures: based on the reply to a commenter from Wyrd they probably don't carry a lot of the smaller wargames like Malifaux, Infinity, etc. (or at least not in quantities above the "Coca Cola line").
2. PP's base is growing at the store, while GW's is stagnant or shrinking.
3. If you're getting fed up of dealing with GW but want to keep your tabletop customers, why not try encouraging them to jump ship to another miniatures game that's popular at the store?
Ignoring that the post offering the trade in has been deleted after it stirred up controversy, the idea seems to be driven more by game store pragmatism rather than any sort of affection for PP.
Except that Black Diamond Games did say that the PP sales do not makeup for the lost GW sales. Even if there are more players in a game system, if it doesn't generate sales, it doesn't help the store.
One interesting thing that I just noticed is that the Black Diamond Games post about banning Death From The Skies and encouraging people to trade in 40k rulebooks in exchange for discounted Warmahordes miniatures seems to have been removed from their website.
silent25 wrote: Except that isn't what the original announcement from the store is about. He only complained about not being able sell the book and banning people playing it. You are adding other people's stories to justify it. If those other reasons were the cause, it should have been mentioned. The original announcement was nothing more than a blatant sales pitch. Given what people some posters said about the store, GW sales were never an issue at the store.
Just as a quick FYI - the letter from was from Pat Fuge, CEO of Gnome Games to GW. This was not posted on the store's facebook or website. This was basically the final straw for Pat from what I can tell. There have been many issues over the years with GW, especially recently with products arriving well after the release dates. As a customer of the store, it is a pain in the butt when I have to wait an extra week to get GW's monthly advertising flyer from any of the local stores because they chose not to ship it out until after the official street date.
Having to tell customers on a regular basis that you can't guarantee their special order items will be coming (not just soon, but ever) is pretty crappy to deal with. This has been an issue for awhile, especially when the finecast fiasco first hit.
TLDR: This is simply the most recent in a long line of gakky treatment of the FLGS by GW.
Having to tell customers on a regular basis that you can't guarantee their special order items will be coming (not just soon, but ever) is pretty crappy to deal with. This has been an issue for awhile, especially when the finecast fiasco first hit.
Makes it sort of hard to buy things. That being the point of a retail business makes GW mind boggling in some ways. They should be giving the stores selling their products plenty of love. Without those places I wouldn't have anywhere to play without even one of these mythical GW stores anywhere as far as the eye can see... and I'm certainly not buying expensive models from their online-store for just basement gaming.
If the rules for a model are not available in the codex/army book for the army in question, then clearly Games Workshop is providing faulty product and it is up to GW customer service to provide a correct replacement.
Perhaps a photocopy of the page with the rules for the model when you buy it will do till GW correct their mistake and print correct books.
Kingsley wrote: To be honest, if any store owner tells me not to play with official Games Workshop products at that store, I'm going to stop playing (and buying) at that store at all. This strategy might work in places where the store is "the only game in town," but I have many choices for stores to attend and if some of them decide not to support the game system I play, I'm out.
I had a GW manager say he would not allow people to use codexes from the Apple book store sold by GW in the store because "they could be pirated" even after I explained a fool proof way to check that would require hacking the Apple store computers to fake. It was obvious the real problem was that people weren't buying in his store. He was ******* entitled and had absolutely now understanding of the value of money. He did not understand it at all when I told him that no one was going to spend $40 for an electronic codex and another $40 for the paper codex. He was a completely entitled idiot about money. He was also a total jerk about it. He was a **** to Dondrekhan about buying sth that he repeated said he didn't have money repeatedly. He later lied about it. I should have mentioned that it's possible to find out about character by asking a known question. We both reported him to the company, and I'm pretty sure he got fired.
Goliath wrote: If they made rules for models, and then designed models to go with those rules, then maybe I could accept them being referred to as a "Game company", but they don't. They make models, and then happen to make rules that go with them.
Really?
The Harpy would like a word with you.
The Tervigon as well - 2 years with no model.
Doom of Malantai - no model yet. Also the Parasite of Mortrex. And the Tyranid Prime.
Flyrant - no model for how long? 3rd edition was the first Flyrant?
Dark Eldar were missing quite a few models for a long time as well.
The statement that they make models first and then rules for them is demonstrably false.
I dont think that move will have a lot of impact. Nevertheless i additionally think that doing nothing and just swallowing up the bullcrap GW is throwing at us hobbyists is doing even less.
In my gaming club 40k and Fantasy are still the main systems but the new thing is that people tend to play a LOT of alternatives.
A year ago there were two systems played at our place. 40k and Fantasy. Nowadays we have Flames of War, WarmaHordes, Songs of Blades and Heroes, Dreadball, Infinity and a lot more indy games that are regularly played. No one bought a new GW army since last years price hike.
The money that went into these games went to GW in the past. We are not stupid enough to think this has an impact on gw nor is this the main reason to try other stuff.
If you want to try something new i encourage you to do it. Just not do it because you think you hurt GW this way. Do it because models/rules/fluff hook you up.
I mean this as a genuine question, I'm sure one of the Dakka Lawyer Brigade will show up and answer it at some point.
IANAL.
It's a big stretch but the Sherman Act and other aspects of anti-trust laws may apply. The law's intent and enforcement attempts to prevent the artificial raising of prices by restriction of trade and supply. GW could be construed as being in breach of this act by creating a hostile environment in which they are able to manipulate costs to their benefit and to the detriment of retail competitors. Don't like discounts given by stores? Charge more and refuse them access to your products. One aspect of the law is to limit predatory practices that restrict competition.
More appropriate, possibly, would be the Clayton Antitrust Act and the Robinson-Patman Act which expanded protections to include exclusive dealing agreements, tying arrangements, price discrimination between different purchasers. None of which GW appears to be in breech of at the moment; however, if they refused to sell their products to a store of good standing (financially) at the same rate as other "equally-situated distributors", I could see a cause for action.
I'll ask again since noone seems to have noticed when I first asked...
By now, most everyone has come to terms with the fact that FW rules will not always be accepted. They are additional, optional rules that many tournament organizers often ban from their events.
Considering that the only distinction between FW and GW rules is, technically, that FW is a direct-only exclusive, how come when the same ban is applied to GW's new live of direct-exclusives, some people are now ready to pull out their pitchforks?
@player not found tbh I personally view that FWs newer books should indeed be considered a part of "normal 40K" mainly the ones with the "for 40k" stamps on the pages. However yes I can see a parallel in this instance with how the FW rules are currently treated and these new direct only rules updates. For me the fact it is only in the English language further reinforces my thoughts that these should not be binding as it excludes a large swathe of the gaming community on that basis alone. This combined with lack of availability (it is already sold out) means that there are probably less gamers with access to these new rules than have access to FW.
If this book is unavailable for FLGS to sell, but yet the models are available to be sold...then you have a situation in which FLGS are selling an incomplete product. If I were a FLGS owner...I'd either stop stocking the relevant flyers with missing rules...or purchase said book, and provide one page copies of the particular flyer rules in question to anyone that buys those flyers at the time of purchase. Fair use clause applies here I think. While I think this is a douche move by GW by undercutting FLGS...there are alternatives. For the life of me, I really don't understand why the one page of rules can't simply be a free PDF. If they are ultimately a "model company first"...then the rules should be completely secondary. Everything about this book reeks of a shameless money grab and nothing more.
Kingsley wrote: One interesting thing that I just noticed is that the Black Diamond Games post about banning Death From The Skies and encouraging people to trade in 40k rulebooks in exchange for discounted Warmahordes miniatures seems to have been removed from their website.
We're not going to ban the book. I have serious issues with Games Workshop, but Saturday it became apparent that this is an essential book for play, rather than some fluff book as I understood it. That makes it extremely difficult to tell people they can't use it. It also makes Games Workshop's actions especially reprehensible. However, we don't want to punish our customers for that. We can make the usual retail decisions on how we want to deal with GW. That might include reducing stock, leaving their partner store program, curtailing events, or having a policy that staff actively steer our customers away from their games.
Gary L. Ray
Black Diamond Games, Ltd.
1950 Market Street, Suite E
Concord, CA 94520
CaptKaruthors wrote: ...If I were a FLGS owner...I'd either stop stocking the relevant flyers with missing rules...or purchase said book, and provide one page copies of the particular flyer rules in question to anyone that buys those flyers at the time of purchase.
Except that this would be illegal, and if GW caught wind, they would do all in their power to get you prosecuted for it.
CaptKaruthors wrote: ...If I were a FLGS owner...I'd either stop stocking the relevant flyers with missing rules...or purchase said book, and provide one page copies of the particular flyer rules in question to anyone that buys those flyers at the time of purchase.
Except that this would be illegal, and if GW caught wind, they would do all in their power to get you prosecuted for it.
Having more integrity than Games Workshop is your best bet, and it hardly requires any effort at all.
Gary L. Ray
Black Diamond Games, Ltd.
1950 Market Street, Suite E
Concord, CA 94520
If GWs behavior becomes so obnoxious to store-owners that they decide not to push GW product, there are certainly many other systems and products to promote.
Edited: Advocacy of illegal activity is against Dakka rules. -Mannahnin
Then I'll spend the cash I saved on the newest compilation of a certain comic book, which I'll purchase from the same store from which I might have purchased the flyer rules had GW decided not to be jerks.
Win-win for me and my FLGS, loss for GW - that should make the shareholders happy.
2) Those companies aren't taking away products that used to be available for independent retailers to sell. The expectation in the past was that direct-only products were the niche market stuff that didn't sell often enough to justify keeping it in stock in a retail store, but this is a core rulebook that people are going to expect to buy in a store. But now independent store owners have to tell their customers sorry, we can sell you a Storm Talon but GW won't let us sell you the rules. Why? Because GW makes more short-term profit that way.
Ding Ding Din!
I think we have a winner!
Me thinks The Hobbit is not doing as well as hoped, I'll explain.....
After dealing with GW for close to thirty years, dumb moves are common place.... goes with the territory.
Anybody that has been buying their products for over five years has a story of how they invalided, nerfed, (insert adjective here) of one of their units, models,( insert product here).....
I bought Space marine, three months later they revised the system to new epic rules/ basing. I bought the Sisters of Battle Codex when it came out and about three months later (give or take a month or two,, I AM getting old ) Third edition came out
Dumb moves are common, but they make money. They are profitable and are still around and bigger than before.
The price point of The Hobbit minis are nuts. 85 USD for three uni pose trolls? look at the new Dragon Ogres, Phenomenal! Loads of options and awesome sculpts. Price point: 60 USD! I want to buy them just to have!
I don't think the Hobbit is selling. I have been to about five stores in my area and no one has sold anything but one core box. That's bad, especially since GW requires that their higher tier store MUST carny The Hobbit.
Space Marines are their highest selling minis. So if rules for their newest toys were only available through GW, they stand to make the money instead of spreading the wealth. Maybe a quick grab for money to shore up falling profits, cover loses from The Hobbit?
The clincher for me was when I read the hassles Mikhalia had over this. He is a great retailer runs large tourneys (was a Ard Boys finals location) and carry's a HUGE amount of their product. If I were a supplier, He would be the last person I would want to piss off.
anyway my two cents (which are worth about .3333 cents in today's economy)
Rant over
I emailed GW Customer Service with politely worded letter (it was, I promise) that I would decline to order this product until it was made available to independent retailers at their normal discount. This was the response I got:
Re: Death from the Skies
From:
US Customer Service <custserv@gwplc.com>
To: [snip]
Hey there,
Thanks for writing in to us! Sorry for any confusion that there may be. Independent Retailers do have the ability to sell Death From the Skies just like any other Direct Product. These books are also not stocked in Games Workshop Hobby Centers as they are a Direct Item.
Kingsley wrote: One interesting thing that I just noticed is that the Black Diamond Games post about banning Death From The Skies and encouraging people to trade in 40k rulebooks in exchange for discounted Warmahordes miniatures seems to have been removed from their website.
We're not going to ban the book. I have serious issues with Games Workshop, but Saturday it became apparent that this is an essential book for play, rather than some fluff book as I understood it. That makes it extremely difficult to tell people they can't use it. It also makes Games Workshop's actions especially reprehensible. However, we don't want to punish our customers for that. We can make the usual retail decisions on how we want to deal with GW. That might include reducing stock, leaving their partner store program, curtailing events, or having a policy that staff actively steer our customers away from their games.
Gary L. Ray
Black Diamond Games, Ltd.
1950 Market Street, Suite E
Concord, CA 94520
CIsaac wrote: I emailed GW Customer Service with politely worded letter (it was, I promise) that I would decline to order this product until it was made available to independent retailers at their normal discount. This was the response I got:
Re: Death from the Skies
From:
US Customer Service <custserv@gwplc.com>
To: [snip]
Hey there,
Thanks for writing in to us! Sorry for any confusion that there may be. Independent Retailers do have the ability to sell Death From the Skies just like any other Direct Product. These books are also not stocked in Games Workshop Hobby Centers as they are a Direct Item.
Thanks!
Games Workshop
North America Customer Services
Others had posted that their FLGS owners checked their ability to order after it was 'released' and saw it in the computer.
So maybe while they played dumb and refused to say it is coming and give warning, I am curious to see if it appears in the direct sales option 'now' that it has been actually released? I wonder if they can Backorder it for the 'lesser discount' they get from direct only orders? Or maybe GW stealthed changed their policy on this.
Clsaac, I think your premise was the best thing I saw in this thread where you actually 'went without' a product until you could buy it via your FLGS. You made a real stand as a customer. Major Kudos to you. I hope that what they said is valid ad your FLGS can order it soon.
a) True, and an initial oversight.
b) True, and a policy they've smartly enacted.
c) False, a misunderstanding
d) False, a flat out lie
Bottom line: They've sold out. It doesn't matter for the foreseeable future. However, I know many store owners like myself will be trying to get to the bottom of all this this morning. What they need to do with us is apologize. They were either incompetent or malicious, but it was not business as usual.
Gary L. Ray
Black Diamond Games, Ltd.
1950 Market Street, Suite E
Concord, CA 94520
I'd say being GW there is a 60/40 chance what they mean is "Yes, your FLGS can order it. They wont get any discount and they'll have to mark it up if they expect to make a profit on it but no one is saying they can't order it."
Silly bans, threats to steal customers away, buying up rulebooks for instore credit, etc. Makes store owners look like trite little brats who weren't picked first in a playground game. Grow up. "ihategw" really?? Maturity not a prerequisite to sell plastic toys, I guess.
Want to be treated professionaly? Act professional.
What I do get:
That FLGS need to make a noise. This is a very dangerous trend and one that they cannot go unchallenged. Making needed products for gameplay exclusive to the online store is a complete betrayal to independent retailers and a classic case of biting the hand that feeds you.
A nice, well thought out, big boy open letter would have given certain people a moral high ground... now its "But he called me a name first!"
It's my understanding that the "ihategw" issue is a blog/email address for the new guy that runs GW and not something set up by any of the store owners that are participating in this discussion.
jonolikespie wrote: I'd say being GW there is a 60/40 chance what they mean is "Yes, your FLGS can order it. They wont get any discount and they'll have to mark it up if they expect to make a profit on it but no one is saying they can't order it."
Independents get less of a discount on direct-only but still get a discount.
jonolikespie wrote: I'd say being GW there is a 60/40 chance what they mean is "Yes, your FLGS can order it. They wont get any discount and they'll have to mark it up if they expect to make a profit on it but no one is saying they can't order it."
Independents get less of a discount on direct-only but still get a discount.
It was stated earlier in the thread there are 2 types of direct only, I believe they were 10% off and crappy packaging and no discount at all. Even if I am wrong on that these set a new precedent, it wouldn't be so far fetched that GW have changed their procedure in these matters at the same time.
All of this, the firestorm of discontent, would have not happen if there was more direct communication coming from GW to the retailers.
But this is how it is going to be on how they communicate and sell providing certain GW products to their retail and customer base for the foreseeable future.
Goliath wrote: If they made rules for models, and then designed models to go with those rules, then maybe I could accept them being referred to as a "Game company", but they don't. They make models, and then happen to make rules that go with them.
Really?
The Harpy would like a word with you.
The Tervigon as well - 2 years with no model.
Doom of Malantai - no model yet. Also the Parasite of Mortrex. And the Tyranid Prime.
Flyrant - no model for how long? 3rd edition was the first Flyrant?
Dark Eldar were missing quite a few models for a long time as well.
The statement that they make models first and then rules for them is demonstrably false.
Maybe I should have used the word concept instead. Either way, in the November issue of White Dwarf, Jes Goodwin stated that the concepts for models and then the models (in most cases) were made first, before rules were developed to accompany the concepts.
CIsaac wrote: I emailed GW Customer Service with politely worded letter (it was, I promise) that I would decline to order this product until it was made available to independent retailers at their normal discount. This was the response I got:
Re: Death from the Skies
From:
US Customer Service <custserv@gwplc.com>
To: [snip]
Hey there,
Thanks for writing in to us! Sorry for any confusion that there may be. Independent Retailers do have the ability to sell Death From the Skies just like any other Direct Product. These books are also not stocked in Games Workshop Hobby Centers as they are a Direct Item.
Thanks!
Games Workshop
North America Customer Services
Others had posted that their FLGS owners checked their ability to order after it was 'released' and saw it in the computer.
So maybe while they played dumb and refused to say it is coming and give warning, I am curious to see if it appears in the direct sales option 'now' that it has been actually released? I wonder if they can Backorder it for the 'lesser discount' they get from direct only orders? Or maybe GW stealthed changed their policy on this.
Clsaac, I think your premise was the best thing I saw in this thread where you actually 'went without' a product until you could buy it via your FLGS. You made a real stand as a customer. Major Kudos to you. I hope that what they said is valid ad your FLGS can order it soon.
Thanks. I appreciate that.
In a perfect world both the LGS and the GWs of the world can thrive together an cooperatively. I hate that does not appear to be the case currently. But it impacts me, personally, more negatively if I lose my LGS than if GW goes under. GW has multiple replacements on the market. The LGS is not so easily replaced and requires someone to pour their soul and financial well being into a risky project. I can't ask that of someone without being willing to stand behind them as a customer so long as they act in good faith.
Maybe I should have used the word concept instead. Either way, in the November issue of White Dwarf, Jes Goodwin stated that the concepts for models and then the models (in most cases) were made first, before rules were developed to accompany the concepts.
That's an irrelevant statement - of course you have to come up with a concept before writing rules for it. They made rules for those models *long* before releasing a kit for them. In some cases many years (and multiple editions/codexes) before releasing a kit.
Heck - Space Wolves TWC. Concept - "Wolf cavalry with Marines riding them!" How long did it take for the models?
jonolikespie wrote: That recent information is coming from GW customer services though, not exactly someone I'd put much (or any really) faith in.
Why? Compared to most parts of the business Customer Services are very well run, and willing to help the customer.
A friend had a dodgy wheel on a battle wagon that he bought online from the GW website, and he emailed them and showed them a photo and they sent out a new kit almost immediately, and didn't even ask for the original one back.
I'd definitely be willing to us some faith in them.
jonolikespie wrote: That recent information is coming from GW customer services though, not exactly someone I'd put much (or any really) faith in.
Why? Compared to most parts of the business Customer Services are very well run, and willing to help the customer.
A friend had a dodgy wheel on a battle wagon that he bought online from the GW website, and he emailed them and showed them a photo and they sent out a new kit almost immediately, and didn't even ask for the original one back.
I'd definitely be willing to us some faith in them.
There's a big difference between their ability to provide good customer service, after all that is their job, and their ability to give accurate rules, rumor, sales, production, marketing or other information, i.e. not their job. This is especially funny because you can e-mail them the same question within minutes and they will answer differently. They are just CS lackeys and do not have any more information about those things than any one of us. They will happily answer your question and replace your models though.
Maybe I should have used the word concept instead. Either way, in the November issue of White Dwarf, Jes Goodwin stated that the concepts for models and then the models (in most cases) were made first, before rules were developed to accompany the concepts.
That's an irrelevant statement - of course you have to come up with a concept before writing rules for it. They made rules for those models *long* before releasing a kit for them. In some cases many years (and multiple editions/codexes) before releasing a kit.
Heck - Space Wolves TWC. Concept - "Wolf cavalry with Marines riding them!" How long did it take for the models?
Concept as in what the thing will actually look like, even if there is no model.
Tervigon - I want a rule that allows me to spawn gaunts! - design rule detailing the circumstances by which gaunts could be deployed by another model - then design concept for actually gribbly beast that can spawn gaunts.
That isn't how they make the concepts/models/rules. GW have stated specifically that that isn't how they make the concepts/models/rules.
Maybe I should have used the word concept instead. Either way, in the November issue of White Dwarf, Jes Goodwin stated that the concepts for models and then the models (in most cases) were made first, before rules were developed to accompany the concepts.
That's an irrelevant statement - of course you have to come up with a concept before writing rules for it. They made rules for those models *long* before releasing a kit for them. In some cases many years (and multiple editions/codexes) before releasing a kit.
Heck - Space Wolves TWC. Concept - "Wolf cavalry with Marines riding them!" How long did it take for the models?
Concept as in what the thing will actually look like, even if there is no model.
Tervigon - I want a rule that allows me to spawn gaunts! - design rule detailing the circumstances by which gaunts could be deployed by another model - then design concept for actually gribbly beast that can spawn gaunts.
That isn't how they make the concepts/models/rules. GW have stated specifically that that isn't how they make the concepts/models/rules.
And if they were a model company first, the models would at worst come out at the same time as the rules.
That's demonstrably false.
What a pathetic, childish response from Gnome Games. Certainly wouldn't want to game there if that's their attitude to their customers hobby.
They may think they're one of the guys by joining the anti-GW crowd, but what they are in fact doing is insulting customers who enjoy GW products, of which there are still many.
If GW products are that much of a problem do what my FLGS does and don't stock GW products. It's a bit hypocritical to public slam GW and then still run their games.
Ugavine wrote: What a pathetic, childish response from Gnome Games. Certainly wouldn't want to game there if that's their attitude to their customers hobby.
They may think they're one of the guys by joining the anti-GW crowd, but what they are in fact doing is insulting customers who enjoy GW products, of which there are still many.
If GW products are that much of a problem do what my FLGS does and don't stock GW products. It's a bit hypocritical to public slam GW and then still run their games.
Pretty much this. Expect torrents of hate, though, as it's the fashionable thing to hate on GW in favour of 3rd party games.
Ugavine wrote: What a pathetic, childish response from Gnome Games. Certainly wouldn't want to game there if that's their attitude to their customers hobby.
They may think they're one of the guys by joining the anti-GW crowd, but what they are in fact doing is insulting customers who enjoy GW products, of which there are still many.
If GW products are that much of a problem do what my FLGS does and don't stock GW products. It's a bit hypocritical to public slam GW and then still run their games.
More or less Hypocritical than GW classifying me as a "Partnership Level" store but not giving us information about anything we are expected to sell?
More or less Childish than denying a book is coming out when their own stores post on facebook about it?
The reason many retailers are pissed is not about money. It's about being able to take care of our customers. My customers didn't get this book. They didn't know it was coming out. I had no information about it at all. I can't order something that is sold out.
The best store owners care about our customer, and many of us are gamers who like GW's games and models. How Pathetic is it that I myself own the Ork flyers and can't get rules for my own models? I own two gaming stores and sell hundreds of thousands of dollars in GW every year. And I can't get a copy of the damn book for myself, let alone a customer.
It takes a huge amount of noise to actually make GW sit up and take notice. If no one complains, they think "See! The plan is working, time to shovel more bs onto the independent stores. What can they do?"
Goliath wrote: Maybe I should have used the word concept instead. Either way, in the November issue of White Dwarf, Jes Goodwin stated that the concepts for models and then the models (in most cases) were made first, before rules were developed to accompany the concepts.
And if they were a model company first, the models would at worst come out at the same time as the rules.
That's demonstrably false.
They're certainly a model company first, as they have repeatedly and consistently communicated that their first priority is the models. That being said, it's largely an irrelevancy what they label themselves as being. If they choose to sell us rules or models, we can reasonably ask to get good service in regards to either.
pretre wrote: Right, and more recent information says that this is the type that retailers can get but they couldn't order it until it was announced.
And as you can see, mikhaila said that they denied the product even existed, so this isn't as cut and dried as "Oh they could've just ordered it normally!".
Ugavine wrote: What a pathetic, childish response from Gnome Games. Certainly wouldn't want to game there if that's their attitude to their customers hobby.
They may think they're one of the guys by joining the anti-GW crowd, but what they are in fact doing is insulting customers who enjoy GW products, of which there are still many.
If GW products are that much of a problem do what my FLGS does and don't stock GW products. It's a bit hypocritical to public slam GW and then still run their games.
More or less Hypocritical than GW classifying me as a "Partnership Level" store but not giving us information about anything we are expected to sell?
More or less Childish than denying a book is coming out when their own stores post on facebook about it?
The reason many retailers are pissed is not about money. It's about being able to take care of our customers. My customers didn't get this book. They didn't know it was coming out. I had no information about it at all. I can't order something that is sold out.
The best store owners care about our customer, and many of us are gamers who like GW's games and models. How Pathetic is it that I myself own the Ork flyers and can't get rules for my own models? I own two gaming stores and sell hundreds of thousands of dollars in GW every year. And I can't get a copy of the damn book for myself, let alone a customer.
It takes a huge amount of noise to actually make GW sit up and take notice. If no one complains, they think "See! The plan is working, time to shovel more bs onto the independent stores. What can they do?"
Id' like to thank you, Mikhaila, and Balckdog for posting in this thread as you two are the ones really be impacted by this incident. Thank you for sharing your perspectives.
pretre wrote: Right, and more recent information says that this is the type that retailers can get but they couldn't order it until it was announced.
And as you can see, mikhaila said that they denied the product even existed, so this isn't as cut and dried as "Oh they could've just ordered it normally!".
Right, that's what I said. They couldn't get it because of the silly 'it doesn't exist until it is announced' policy. Now they can order it 'normally' the way Independents can get Direct Only stuff normally, but it is sold out.
It is a total cock-up still; I was just clarifying that they can get it in store once it is back in stock to counter the folks who were saying 'OMG a book that independents can never carry!!!'
CIsaac wrote: I emailed GW Customer Service with politely worded letter (it was, I promise) that I would decline to order this product until it was made available to independent retailers at their normal discount. This was the response I got:
Re: Death from the Skies
From:
US Customer Service <custserv@gwplc.com>
To: [snip]
Hey there,
Thanks for writing in to us! Sorry for any confusion that there may be. Independent Retailers do have the ability to sell Death From the Skies just like any other Direct Product. These books are also not stocked in Games Workshop Hobby Centers as they are a Direct Item.
CIsaac wrote: I emailed GW Customer Service with politely worded letter (it was, I promise) that I would decline to order this product until it was made available to independent retailers at their normal discount. This was the response I got:
I received the same reply.
Woah woah woah. You guys e-mailed GWCS at two different times and got the same response? I need to sit down for a little bit. This is truly an amazing day.
I think it was mostly that retailers couldn't get it for sale the day it came out. And now that it's a normal direct item can't get them until the next run comes in. And even then they'll have to keep asking, hoping to get an order in before it goes back up on the GW site.
Basically it's a big hassle and GW got a leg up on them in what I would consider an underhanded way. And I rarely have an issue with GW's policies. Actions that hurt the FLGS community though annoy me. Almost as much as a local store saying I couldn't use the book if I did purcahse it would annoy me
CIsaac wrote: I emailed GW Customer Service with politely worded letter (it was, I promise) that I would decline to order this product until it was made available to independent retailers at their normal discount. This was the response I got:
I received the same reply.
Woah woah woah. You guys e-mailed GWCS at two different times and got the same response? I need to sit down for a little bit. This is truly an amazing day.
To be fair, it was EXACTLY the same response. As in Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V style.
To be fair, it was EXACTLY the same response. As in Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V style.
No, I'm not doubting you... I am amazed because GWCS rarely gives the same answer to anything twice. It implies that they might be taking their response seriously. Which is shocking.
To be fair, it was EXACTLY the same response. As in Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V style.
No, I'm not doubting you... I am amazed because GWCS rarely gives the same answer to anything twice. It implies that they might be taking their response seriously. Which is shocking.
I got the exact opposite impression. I know a "company line" when I see one.
No, that's the amazing thing. They almost never have a company line. Usually it is whatever the CS grunt feels like saying at the time. This means they are taking it seriously because someone actually spent the time to make a company line.
Not surprised that the CS folks were given a very specific response to copy/paste into inquiries about Death from the Skies since it sold out so quickly and has both customers and retailers unhappy for a number of reasons.
If they take this seriously, we'll see what happens with their next release, I suppose...
Byte wrote: Ban a book because of hurt feelings(I know its more than that)? Geez, glad I don't rely on that LGS for my GW or gaming.
One of my gaming buddies moved to an area that is anti GW. He said he can't even mention GW without the store minions having a conniption.
It's not because of "hurt feelings." This move by GW smacks of dealing in bad faith. If GW was all direct-only, that'd be a different story. But this new policy of selective direct-only is a stick in the eye to not only non-GWhobby stores, but customers as well.
Byte wrote: Ban a book because of hurt feelings(I know its more than that)? Geez, glad I don't rely on that LGS for my GW or gaming.
One of my gaming buddies moved to an area that is anti GW. He said he can't even mention GW without the store minions having a conniption.
It's not because of "hurt feelings." This move by GW smacks of dealing in bad faith. If GW was all direct-only, that'd be a different story. But this new policy of selective direct-only is a stick in the eye to not only non-GWhobby stores, but customers as well.
These are NOT available for retailers to order, period. Customer service is incorrect.
800 copies were printed. 1000 were sold. Despite FAQs and such pointing to this book, they were surprised at the demand and have had a pretty big negative response.
The book will be reprinted. There is no plans he knows of to make it widely available.
Gary L. Ray
Black Diamond Games, Ltd.
1950 Market Street, Suite E
Concord, CA 94520
Oh, GW... screwing over retailers day after day. And by proxy, screwing over the customers. I recently opened a comic/gaming/hobby store and had the ... ahem... please of dealing with GW. Their motto in their handbook is honesty, integrity and courage. Yet they didn't have the courage to call me back about my account and when they did, lied. They can come to me now... at which point I'll say no. Privateer, Corvus Belli, Wyrd... all wonderful companies which are getting my utmost support.
While the fires are hot I should really post about my whole ordeal.
Regardless, GW is doing a HUGE disservice and are being down right crooked in their dealings with this release. Can't wait until the next couple releases when prices go even higher and there are more and more people leaving for other (better) companies and their games.
pretre wrote: No, that's the amazing thing. They almost never have a company line. Usually it is whatever the CS grunt feels like saying at the time. This means they are taking it seriously because someone actually spent the time to make a company line.
I doubt they're taking it to seriously, if that company line is a flat out lie.
djones520 wrote: I doubt they're taking it to seriously, if that company line is a flat out lie.
Well, at this point we don't really know. Right now, we have a bunch of people on the internet saying a bunch of different things. I don't know blackdiamond or his rep from a hole in the ground, just as I don't know some random paste of what a GW Customer Service rep might have said.
I think we'll just have to wait and see what happens.
djones520 wrote: I doubt they're taking it to seriously, if that company line is a flat out lie.
Well, at this point we don't really know. Right now, we have a bunch of people on the internet saying a bunch of different things. I don't know blackdiamond or his rep from a hole in the ground, just as I don't know some random paste of what a GW Customer Service rep might have said.
I think we'll just have to wait and see what happens.
I intended on swinging by my local store tomorrow and finding out what BSGW was slinging over the issue. Though, we've had multiple store owners on here, with others backing their creds up, all saying the same thing, that GW is lying over the issue.
Ugavine wrote: What a pathetic, childish response from Gnome Games. Certainly wouldn't want to game there if that's their attitude to their customers hobby.
They may think they're one of the guys by joining the anti-GW crowd, but what they are in fact doing is insulting customers who enjoy GW products, of which there are still many.
If GW products are that much of a problem do what my FLGS does and don't stock GW products. It's a bit hypocritical to public slam GW and then still run their games.
More or less Hypocritical than GW classifying me as a "Partnership Level" store but not giving us information about anything we are expected to sell?
More or less Childish than denying a book is coming out when their own stores post on facebook about it?
The reason many retailers are pissed is not about money. It's about being able to take care of our customers. My customers didn't get this book. They didn't know it was coming out. I had no information about it at all. I can't order something that is sold out.
The best store owners care about our customer, and many of us are gamers who like GW's games and models. How Pathetic is it that I myself own the Ork flyers and can't get rules for my own models? I own two gaming stores and sell hundreds of thousands of dollars in GW every year. And I can't get a copy of the damn book for myself, let alone a customer.
It takes a huge amount of noise to actually make GW sit up and take notice. If no one complains, they think "See! The plan is working, time to shovel more bs onto the independent stores. What can they do?"
There is still a right and a wrong way to address the issue.
I don't know the nature of your store, if it's just gaming, RPGs or collectables. But specialist stores not being able to get product is hardly news. A friend of mine owns a store selling comics and collectables, mainly action figures. And numerous times customers including myself have asked for items that he just couldn't get. Especially when items are very limited in number, as I believe this book was. If he cried every time he couldn't stock something he'd be a weeping mess. It's the nature of specialist business.
Ugavine wrote: What a pathetic, childish response from Gnome Games. Certainly wouldn't want to game there if that's their attitude to their customers hobby.
They may think they're one of the guys by joining the anti-GW crowd, but what they are in fact doing is insulting customers who enjoy GW products, of which there are still many.
If GW products are that much of a problem do what my FLGS does and don't stock GW products. It's a bit hypocritical to public slam GW and then still run their games.
More or less Hypocritical than GW classifying me as a "Partnership Level" store but not giving us information about anything we are expected to sell?
More or less Childish than denying a book is coming out when their own stores post on facebook about it?
The reason many retailers are pissed is not about money. It's about being able to take care of our customers. My customers didn't get this book. They didn't know it was coming out. I had no information about it at all. I can't order something that is sold out.
The best store owners care about our customer, and many of us are gamers who like GW's games and models. How Pathetic is it that I myself own the Ork flyers and can't get rules for my own models? I own two gaming stores and sell hundreds of thousands of dollars in GW every year. And I can't get a copy of the damn book for myself, let alone a customer.
It takes a huge amount of noise to actually make GW sit up and take notice. If no one complains, they think "See! The plan is working, time to shovel more bs onto the independent stores. What can they do?"
No one is saying GW is in the right here, buddy. But two wrongs don't make a right, and stores writing a whiny email (like my FLGS did this morning) telling me I can't use the new book because -they- didn't like the way GW handled it is just as grimy as what GW did to them. Now instead of me thinking GW is a gakky company, I think my FLGS is too. Can you imagine a new codex getting released and a store banning it like this? A store banning the use of this book is arguably -worse- than what GW did, because GW just cut you out of the loop on a direct product release, my store is telling me I can't use the latest rules for the gaming system I play.
Needless to say, I will not be patronizing my local store anymore. If GW upsets them so much, the ethical thing to do is stop carrying GW product--if all the stores "banning" DFtS did this, GW would notice. But they won't. Why? Then the stores would lose money. They'd much rather hurt the customer here. And I only have room in this game system for one company trying to screw me.
These are NOT available for retailers to order, period. Customer service is incorrect.
800 copies were printed. 1000 were sold. Despite FAQs and such pointing to this book, they were surprised at the demand and have had a pretty big negative response.
The book will be reprinted. There is no plans he knows of to make it widely available.
Gary L. Ray
Black Diamond Games, Ltd.
1950 Market Street, Suite E
Concord, CA 94520
Kroothawk was right; GW really thought this was a stopgap measure and nothing more.
Did GW really think that poorly of its own product to make only 800, or is this simply one more way to limit legal rule obtaining much to he chagrin of the demanding customers? Honestly, GW cannot win one way or the other.
Hey everyone, look what those craaaazy kids at GW are up to! Tune in for their crazy antics as they forget to add a zero on a purchase order, you'll laugh out loud when you hear little Tommy say, "Oh noes, da innernetz gonna be mad 'bout dis one!"
Wow, only a print run of 800, surely it would have been cheaper in a run of 5000, see what that sold then do a second and perhaps third run of 5000. No way can it be economical to make such a limited run.
Or the GW rep got the number wrong or lied to save face.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If it is true, it would explain a lot. GW just didn't think many people would want one so did a small lot and left it direct to save on cost.
i buy printing a lot where i work. i do everything from copy shop stuff to 400,000 runs in china. I find it highly unlikely they print that few. the cost per piece would be astronomical. I mean even at 1000 copies it would not be cost effective to do. per unit. I mean printing 5000 maybe i would think as a preliminary order and then 5000 in 2 months for inventory. I can not believe a multi million dollar company would only order 800-1000 of a book.
Unless you want it to sell out and you most likely have a plan to get it back in stock in a week or two. that way you do a few things. You can tell you shareholder "our books always sell out" and you create a artificial need for people to urgently but the NEXT book that comes out because all the preorders constantly sell out.
The other thing my company does is order say 5000 units of something. The supplier rushes the first 1000 to us so we can get it listed and start selling them while they finish the rest of the order. Sometimes we have small quanitites flewn over from china or taiwan and the remainder of the order is shipped over by boat for cost saving. I could understand that approach for say 5000 books.
I am not saying this is what they did though. It is GW and they also seem to do things backwards.
Our products are constantly getting ripped off by chinese vendors and copy cats but you know how we combat it, we make a better product. Hell people in china order from us because we supply quality and have a strong warranty even though they might be made in there own freaking country.
Now GW has the, for the most part, the quality there. I just dont get why they make it so inaccessible. Seriously i dont understand why they don't have sales to move items or multiple unit discounts.Or even direct to the FLGS specials.
Walls wrote: Oh, GW... screwing over retailers day after day. And by proxy, screwing over the customers. I recently opened a comic/gaming/hobby store and had the ... ahem... please of dealing with GW. Their motto in their handbook is honesty, integrity and courage. Yet they didn't have the courage to call me back about my account and when they did, lied. They can come to me now... at which point I'll say no. Privateer, Corvus Belli, Wyrd... all wonderful companies which are getting my utmost support.
While the fires are hot I should really post about my whole ordeal.
Regardless, GW is doing a HUGE disservice and are being down right crooked in their dealings with this release. Can't wait until the next couple releases when prices go even higher and there are more and more people leaving for other (better) companies and their games.
Because. You do all your ordering directly from these companies, right? Oh wait. You don't? Huh. How about that.
All this "they lied" nonsense is pure conjecture and speculation, and quite frankly the chances the CS folks had the "real" answer right away is slim to none.
In regards to your "dealings with GW" and setting up an account: I'd wager you had to go through an account rep and if that's the case, it's no surprise. Those guys are stretched ridiculously thin handling orders that, quite frankly, should be automated. If you didn't actual speak to an account manager, then please, let's hear your tale of woe.
There's nothing "downright crooked' going on and the hyperbole from some of you is ridiculous.
I have personally seen printers go from hardback to paperpack overnight and whereas hardback binding is laborious and expensive, a softcover book is waiting on the printery to catch-up.
Soooo... Now the book is sold out and according to the FAQs, you must refer to the book for the rules but you can't get the book so your 'best model scifi aircraft in the world' can't be used in the fething game they made it for?
Tell me, learned folks, how is GW working to a carefully set out business plan that we poor schmucks don't understand? Cos from where I'm sitting this looks like it was orchestrated by the fething Ant Hill Mob...
I still have the WD in which they told us that the switch to plastics was going to allow for less expense so we could build bigger armies faster. Still waiting on that.
While these may not be 'lies', per se, there is a lot of spin on things from GW. Is this the teacup ride at Disneyland?
I still have the WD in which they told us that the switch to plastics was going to allow for less expense so we could build bigger armies faster. Still waiting on that.
While these may not be 'lies', per se, there is a lot of spin on things from GW. Is this the teacup ride at Disneyland?
There's a mountain of difference between a lie and a "whoops we didn't really think this product through very well we need a response."
Which is what I'd wager has happened. GW has been known to be under prepared of product launches before.....
No one is saying GW is in the right here, buddy. But two wrongs don't make a right, and stores writing a whiny email (like my FLGS did this morning) telling me I can't use the new book because -they- didn't like the way GW handled it is just as grimy as what GW did to them. Now instead of me thinking GW is a gakky company, I think my FLGS is too. Can you imagine a new codex getting released and a store banning it like this? A store banning the use of this book is arguably -worse- than what GW did, because GW just cut you out of the loop on a direct product release, my store is telling me I can't use the latest rules for the gaming system I play.
Needless to say, I will not be patronizing my local store anymore. If GW upsets them so much, the ethical thing to do is stop carrying GW product--if all the stores "banning" DFtS did this, GW would notice. But they won't. Why? Then the stores would lose money. They'd much rather hurt the customer here. And I only have room in this game system for one company trying to screw me.
I think Mikhaila is just frustrated with the developments regarding GWs announcement policy. If he sells the volume he claims he does, trying to plan on guess work is a nightmare. I can understand his frustration and I think this was just a "OH I GIVE UP!" moment.
A regional manager at the Skull of Thrones told people there the policy was due to New Line Cinema's Hobbit license. Given they mentioned in the annual report last year that this secrecy had no apparent impact on sales. So probably in typical managerial thought, if a little secrecy is good, a lot of secrecy should be better.
As for the direct only, this seems to play into the trend I have noticed in the last couple months. The larger than normal price hikes and speedup in releases. The Hobbit game likely did not meet the numbers GW expected and now they are scrambling to increase revenues before the half. If they don't meet their expectations, their stock will be punished.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Tell me, learned folks, how is GW working to a carefully set out business plan that we poor schmucks don't understand?
Limited initial run drives up demand? XBox, PS2, iPhone, etc. all did the same thing.
It also alienates your fanbase, and make no mistake, veterans are the base.
I guarantee you that the majority of players in these here United States are in the 18-35, 25-40 brackets as opposed to the GW sales targets of 11-15 year olds. If we don't like it or if we don't promote it we can effectively have an impact on others not playing / buying.
A limited run book is not the same nor as ubiquitous as an X-box, PS, or iPhone especially as there is a thriving secondary market for such things. New X-box game? Wait a couple of weeks and it will be available used at 25% off, gaming console; same thing, iPhone will still be there as product is manufactured to meet demand, or consumer finds another equal or greater good for their money.
A limited run book that is unavailable yet still part of the rule system that you need to legally play your model serves no one and could lead to consumer alienation and loss, especially if there is a doubt as to whether that product will ever again be available. Unlike your example of consumer electronics which they will continue to produce, sell, and improve upon without any doubt as to their later availibility.
They greatly limited the copies of space hulk that independant retailers could get, yet had ample supply for their GW stores.
One of the FLGS stores in my area was taking pre-orders for it and had ordered well over 30 copies of the game, they got in 4. Their distributor got roughly 10% of their total requests from GW. GW at the time claimed to have sold through all of their stock and couldn't provide independant retailers with more. But if you went to the local GW stores not only did they have to cover all the GW pre-orders in store they had well over an additional 100 copies PER STORE in stock. They had it in stock and on the shelf for 4-5 months after supposedly being sold out.
They intentionally shorted non GW stores to pad their numbers and drive customers to buy it at GW outlets and not at FLGS stores.
I guess I'm fortunate my electronic versions of the codeces have the rules auto updated. Huh.
How did you get an auto update? I own the Ork Flyers Digital iBook but I am not really sure 'how' to tell if there is an update or how to get it or confirm I have it. So any help you can provide for the other ipad peeps would be helpful.
I have to say tho, 800 seeeeeems amazingly low. Our company had a professional print shop which did high end publications for the Government and even low-run productions were way more than 800. And we did the same binding techniques. Seems odd.
I guess I'm fortunate my electronic versions of the codeces have the rules auto updated. Huh.
How did you get an auto update? I own the Ork Flyers Digital iBook but I am not really sure 'how' to tell if there is an update or how to get it or confirm I have it. So any help you can provide for the other ipad peeps would be helpful.
I have to say tho, 800 seeeeeems amazingly low. Our company had a professional print shop which did high end publications for the Government and even low-run productions were way more than 800. And we did the same binding techniques. Seems odd.
I meant for the storm talon, etc. My bad on the lack of specificity. I think I may have purchased the Ork Flyers iBook as well.
I guess I'm fortunate my electronic versions of the codeces have the rules auto updated. Huh.
How did you get an auto update? I own the Ork Flyers Digital iBook but I am not really sure 'how' to tell if there is an update or how to get it or confirm I have it. So any help you can provide for the other ipad peeps would be helpful.
I have to say tho, 800 seeeeeems amazingly low. Our company had a professional print shop which did high end publications for the Government and even low-run productions were way more than 800. And we did the same binding techniques. Seems odd.
I meant for the storm talon, etc. My bad on the lack of specificity. I think I may have purchased the Ork Flyers iBook as well.
I see the codex SM update... No update to the ork flyers. Either they are not updating it or nothing changed.
paulson games wrote: They greatly limited the copies of space hulk that independant retailers could get, yet had ample supply for their GW stores.
One of the FLGS stores in my area was taking pre-orders for it and had ordered well over 30 copies of the game, they got in 4. Their distributor got roughly 10% of their total requests from GW. GW at the time claimed to have sold through all of their stock and couldn't provide independant retailers with more. But if you went to the local GW stores not only did they have to cover all the GW pre-orders in store they had well over an additional 100 copies PER STORE in stock. They had it in stock and on the shelf for 4-5 months after supposedly being sold out.
They intentionally shorted non GW stores to pad their numbers and drive customers to buy it at GW outlets and not at FLGS stores.
Yup I can verify this as I've seen this first hand when this occurred in my areas that I travel too.. As far as 800 copies? Yes I can believe that as well as this looks good for when they report their financials. Seen this done in other companies. This is nothing new in padding their reports to make everything look rosy for investment purposes on how well they sold their recent product. . Investors like hearing about sell outs and increased product demand. They do not care about what sold, what did not sell and so forth. Only profit levels that are met on a yearly basis. Nothing wrong with that either as long as this company does not become another Enron then all is good.
The other reason is amount of investment in creating this content. Very small investment turning out a product with a small print run like this. They are going to make a lot of money (amount of profit per unit) on this product by cutting out the retailers via their direct only sales.
That's base per unit, I am sure that there are shipping / warehousing / distribution costs to take into consideration.
If they use UPS to send it to your door that's another $8.xx +/- that is deducted per unit = -$13.xx from the cover price, not counting other associated costs..
Brings us to -$10400
Total $10000.00
Hourly wages for warehouse personnel to unpack, pick, label, and ship and you are losing even more off the cover price.
That's not even one week's wage for good 'ol Mr. Kirby.
I fail to see how GW could possibly benefit their investors with what could be considered chump change.
Thanks for writing into us. Sorry for any confusion there may have been. Independent Retailers will be able to order this product just like any other Direct items. I also wanted to clarify that Death From the Skies is a compendium not a rules book. It reprints things previously printed in other books. If you have any other questions please contact us at 1-800-394-4263.
silent25 wrote: The Hobbit game likely did not meet the numbers GW expected and now they are scrambling to increase revenues before the half. If they don't meet their expectations, their stock will be punished.
I still think that if I were in a store that banned me from using the game I wanted to play, it would be my turn to boycott them. It all sounds a little petty to me.
steve2112 wrote: i buy printing a lot where i work. i do everything from copy shop stuff to 400,000 runs in china. I find it highly unlikely they print that few. the cost per piece would be astronomical. I mean even at 1000 copies it would not be cost effective to do. per unit. I mean printing 5000 maybe i would think as a preliminary order and then 5000 in 2 months for inventory. I can not believe a multi million dollar company would only order 800-1000 of a book.
Unless you want it to sell out and you most likely have a plan to get it back in stock in a week or two. that way you do a few things. You can tell you shareholder "our books always sell out" and you create a artificial need for people to urgently but the NEXT book that comes out because all the preorders constantly sell out.
The other thing my company does is order say 5000 units of something. The supplier rushes the first 1000 to us so we can get it listed and start selling them while they finish the rest of the order. Sometimes we have small quanitites flewn over from china or taiwan and the remainder of the order is shipped over by boat for cost saving. I could understand that approach for say 5000 books.
I am not saying this is what they did though. It is GW and they also seem to do things backwards.
Our products are constantly getting ripped off by chinese vendors and copy cats but you know how we combat it, we make a better product. Hell people in china order from us because we supply quality and have a strong warranty even though they might be made in there own freaking country.
Now GW has the, for the most part, the quality there. I just dont get why they make it so inaccessible. Seriously i dont understand why they don't have sales to move items or multiple unit discounts.Or even direct to the FLGS specials.
They aren't allowed to run sales due to the fact that they manufacture the products, and sell them, and sell them to other shops to be sold by them. If they ran a sale it would be disadvantaging the FLGSs, with nothing they could do, which is illegal due to competition laws. (I believe, I heard this from a lawyer who specifically worked in that area, but there is a possibility that it may be incorrect)
I don't have time to read through 15 pages so sorry if this has been said:
A more appropriate response from the store would have been to provide free copies of Death from the Skies for use in their tournaments. Anyone wanting to use the rules could also go into the store and look at one of the store copies and take notes from it.
It denies sales to GW, is totally legal, and makes everyone happy except a handful of suits at GWHQ.
It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Will there be a secondary release, how soon will new codecii be released, will we receive updated rules in the meantime?
I find it interesting to note that a group of high speed offset presses could do the whole run of signatures needed for this publication in about 15 minutes.
FYI, a signature is the layout of a certain number of pages front and back that are then folded over and processed through a casemaking/bindery operation to become a finished book.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: Aren't direct order items still orderable by independent stores, just at not as good a discount?
You can, but there is a delay on orders and its a huge pain in the ass for the retailer most times. Most "direct only" things take 4 to 6 weeks last time I checked, while its only 2 weeks for a GW store/website.
They aren't allowed to run sales due to the fact that they manufacture the products, and sell them, and sell them to other shops to be sold by them. If they ran a sale it would be disadvantaging the FLGSs, with nothing they could do, which is illegal due to competition laws. (I believe, I heard this from a lawyer who specifically worked in that area, but there is a possibility that it may be incorrect)
Nothing stopping them from doing sales. Know PP, Mantic, and Spartan have all done sales within the last year. Pretty sure others have as well. Spartan currently has one going on Uncharted Seas. My local stores doesn't carry Mantic because of Mantic's frequent sales. Sometimes below wholesale.
GW probably doesn't because it would "cheapen" their product.
Goliath wrote: They aren't allowed to run sales due to the fact that they manufacture the products, and sell them, and sell them to other shops to be sold by them. If they ran a sale it would be disadvantaging the FLGSs, with nothing they could do, which is illegal due to competition laws. (I believe, I heard this from a lawyer who specifically worked in that area, but there is a possibility that it may be incorrect)
They used to have sales. From memory I've seen 4 or 5, just individual GW stores having sales.
Wow, I am just so pissed. I have never bought anything direct order from GW. My FLGS is the only place my 20 to 30 friends play 40k. We have 18 4x6 tables and do tourneys all the time. We all support our shop for the ability to play,paint and talk. With this move GW just makes it harder for me to buy anything from them. REALLY, how can they think that this will not piss off those of us who play at a large scale. My group of players are 25 thru 45 and we are the folks that teach the younger players to play, paint and what to BUY!!! I am all for any ban that will send a message to GW to support stores where their damn game is played.
edit by Reds8n
They aren't allowed to run sales due to the fact that they manufacture the products, and sell them, and sell them to other shops to be sold by them. If they ran a sale it would be disadvantaging the FLGSs, with nothing they could do, which is illegal due to competition laws. (I believe, I heard this from a lawyer who specifically worked in that area, but there is a possibility that it may be incorrect)
Nothing stopping them from doing sales. Know PP, Mantic, and Spartan have all done sales within the last year. Pretty sure others have as well. Spartan currently has one going on Uncharted Seas. My local stores doesn't carry Mantic because of Mantic's frequent sales. Sometimes below wholesale.
GW probably doesn't because it would "cheapen" their product.
Yes, but do PP, Mantic et al. have their own chain of shops which also sells their models? IIRC Internet shopping isn't affected, only when a company that produces something both for it to sell and for others to sell, but giving themselves a discount.
Breotan wrote: Did they put the Storm Eagle into the electronic C:SM?
Yep! I would know, I've seen the scans.
It's certainly in my iCodex.
Let the argument over whether an Ironclad is a dreadnought commence!
*passes through thread... sees this and nearly trips over himself* woah woah, wait a second... the Storm EAGLE? Not just the Raven and Talon... but the Eagle is in the Codex now?
Goliath wrote: They aren't allowed to run sales due to the fact that they manufacture the products, and sell them, and sell them to other shops to be sold by them. If they ran a sale it would be disadvantaging the FLGSs, with nothing they could do, which is illegal due to competition laws. (I believe, I heard this from a lawyer who specifically worked in that area, but there is a possibility that it may be incorrect)
They used to have sales. From memory I've seen 4 or 5, just individual GW stores having sales.
I remember my local GW having a sale of sorts on bulk purchases of IG Tanks and Armageddon models like the Baneblade, Stompa, and assorted other stuff a couple of years back. The reason I remember it so well is because one of the more eccentric members of my local gaming group spent his entire wedding fund on tanks in one transaction - £7,500. It was such a large transaction that the till wouldn't accept it, as it thought it was a store stock request.
Needless to say his marriage never went ahead. He is now very much single.
Isn't it a bit hypocritical blasting GW for this though? I mean, every time GW does anything to make more money they're the Devil, but when FLGSs do something to make more money they're the saviousr of humanity.
battlematt wrote: Wow, I am just so pissed. I have never bought anything direct order from GW. My FLGS is the only place my 20 to 30 friends play 40k. We have 18 4x6 tables and do tourneys all the time. We all support our shop for the ability to play,paint and talk. With this move GW just makes it harder for me to buy anything from them. REALLY, how can they think that this will not piss off those of us who play at a large scale. My group of players are 25 thru 45 and we are the folks that teach the younger players to play, paint and what to BUY!!! I am all for any ban that will send a message to GW to support stores where their damn game is played.
edit by Reds8n
Yes..Because that 3-click shopping with free shipping online is so, so very hard.
Mail order isn't always my preference on things. I live in a building with a shared entrance so things going missing is always an issue. Then if they can't get it through the letter box they leave a card and I have to go to the sorting office to get it, which is a mile away and has silly opening times that I can't manage when working full time.
Sometimes it's just nice to go in a shop, hold an item in your hand, examine it yourself and then buy it and own it on the spot.
It's understandable that people like to have a choice between buying in a store or by mail.
I only buy things online I've tested/handled. Meaning I won't buy something online (a book, for example) without being able to thumb through it first. I broke that rule with the Sedition Wars kickstarter, but there's zero motivation for me to do it for this book.
Thanks for writing into us. Sorry for any confusion there may have been. Independent Retailers will be able to order this product just like any other Direct items. I also wanted to clarify that Death From the Skies is a compendium not a rules book. It reprints things previously printed in other books. If you have any other questions please contact us at 1-800-394-4263.
Games Workshop
North America Customer Services
Here's what I got back today.
I just wanted to highlight this. IMO if this is a compendium how are you supposed to use flyers in your army? This is the only place to find rules for them. It just seems like this response is knee-jerk reaction to selling out and very few people having the book.
The new storm talon rules definately haven't printed anywhere before, neither have the c:sm storm raven rules been printed anywhere before so they are lying. Yes the digital codexes have been updated but that was after death from the skies was temporarily released.
As an FLGS gamer and customer, this decision ticks me off because it undermines the profitability of my FLGS.
I have already contacted GW customer service via e-mail expressing my ire over this decision. I intend to call on Tuesday as well.
If you are an FLGS supporter, throwing in your two cents on this unsatisfactory arrangement is worth doing. If you care, but remain silent, don't bitch when it continues.
Cheers,
Nate
If you care you don't email. You don't buy GW products any more.
jonolikespie wrote: Customer service are great for replacing dodgy models but when it comes to getting information out of them they are just as bad as the rest of GW.
Well, to be fair, that's because it isn't really their job. They're a pretty strictly product-replacement/post-purchase CS department.
@UNCLEBADTOUCH -- No, you're wrong. Simply and clearly. The Storm Talon rules were printed in WD. Right next to the Ork Bomba Rules. I Ripped them out of the WD last night.
Polonius wrote: I have no problem with the "ban," I'm just not sure how people were supposed to play at all with some fliers without it. (or a .pdf...)
I've idly wondered for years if GW is actually worth the hassle for gaming stores. With the huge upfront cost and massive range compared to CCGs or Roleplaying, aside from prestige I've wondered why so many stores even try.
@cincydooley that's very odd because the current rules for the storm talon are different from the ones in the white dwarf copy so good luck with playing your games with the wrong rules. If something is different from what was printed previously it obviously hasn't been printed before now has it? Need me to draw you a picture?
cadbren wrote: I don't have time to read through 15 pages so sorry if this has been said:
A more appropriate response from the store would have been to provide free copies of Death from the Skies for use in their tournaments. Anyone wanting to use the rules could also go into the store and look at one of the store copies and take notes from it.
It denies sales to GW, is totally legal, and makes everyone happy except a handful of suits at GWHQ.
You have no clue. Free copies of a book we haven't seen, and were denied ordering?
They will print more. It will go up for sale on a saturday. We get to order on a monday. Guess how many will be left?
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: @cincydooley that's very odd because the current rules for the storm talon are different from the ones in the white dwarf copy so good luck with playing your games with the wrong rules. If something is different from what was printed previously it obviously hasn't been printed before now has it? Need me to draw you a picture?
You said the rules had never been printed. That was categorically wrong. I called you out on that wrongness.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: @cincydooley that's very odd because the current rules for the storm talon are different from the ones in the white dwarf copy so good luck with playing your games with the wrong rules. If something is different from what was printed previously it obviously hasn't been printed before now has it? Need me to draw you a picture?
You said the rules had never been printed. That was categorically wrong. I called you out on that wrongness.
The rules are different I.e. not the same. I can print a picture of a house. I can then print a picture of a different house. Although I have printed a picture of a house before it is not the same as the new house. Therefore the new house hasn't been in print before. Your "call out" was incorrect and can therefore only be classed as a lack of comprehension, that or your trolling for a negative response.
Polonius wrote: I have no problem with the "ban," I'm just not sure how people were supposed to play at all with some fliers without it. (or a .pdf...)
I've idly wondered for years if GW is actually worth the hassle for gaming stores. With the huge upfront cost and massive range compared to CCGs or Roleplaying, aside from prestige I've wondered why so many stores even try.
This is a very fair point.
For a new store, it's a business decision. They can design their space and layout, product mix, etc.
For me at this point, getting rid of GW would just mean not ever getting a paycheck and having a 50' stretch of empty wall.
That said, there are valid reasons to work at maximizing interest in some other games, and cutting down on excess GW product. Such as most anything LOTR, and a lot of WFB is very slow. GW is helping by gutting our wall anyway, with so many things moving to direct.
Seems like they almost want FLGS's to not sell their product.....hmmmm....
yeah, so earlier I wrote; including my letter to GW
Spoiler:
Panic wrote: yeah, All we can do is tell GW what we think they are doing wrong and hope they listen. So I wrote GW a letter. pointing out why I'm not happy with them at the moment...
email them yourselves if you feel like letting them know how you feel. uk.custserv@gwplc.com
++ letter to GW ++ Sirs, I hope at this time of public pressure you take the time to think and realise what it is your doing wrong.
I've complained multiple times about being treated poorly as a WD subscriber, receiving my publication frequently after it's street date because you post them out late and your response has been 'that's how we're doing it.' Your not exactly listening are you?
With regards to the Fliers book, (I've already purchased it. hope the fluff/mission content is good) I believe that the rules for the Ork DakkaJets/Bommer and Spacemarine Stormtalon should be available as free PDFs... people who want to use these already have codexs and models. Asking for more is pure greed!
You've given away free unit pdfs before when you released the Eldar night spinner. I thought that was the start of great things from GW. New units added to a codex for free mid cycle! Yes Please! Please go back to that kind of thinking! your customers loved it! bought the models.
Add to this the SpaceMarine IP rants your having and you can see why you come across as a Bully. No one likes a Bully. You know this so why are you acting like one?
I've taken the time to write to you with my ideas and concerns. Please take the time and consider my email and get back to me.
Panic... GW fan.
PS Also removing a customer interaction point during a crisis smacks of cowardice. You don't see tesco deleting their facebook page at the first sign of horse trouble.
++ end of letter ++
Panic...
GW have replied
Spoiler:
GW wrote:Hello Panic,
Thank you for your email.
White Dwarf is released on a Saturday and the first place it becomes available is in retail stores. As a subscriber, your copy will arrive between the release day up until the Wednesday of the following week dependent on your local post service.This is to ensure we do not have leaks of the content before the release day as it is an official Games Workshop product. By subscribing you are guaranteed to receive your copy when many issues sell out and of receiving the issue straight to your door.
If you are unsatisfied with the way that White Dwarf is delivered to subscribers, we do also now offer an in store subscription service, whereby you can purchase in store a booklet of 12 vouchers which are redeemable in any UK Games Workshop store, and can be used either on the day of release or whenever you feel like picking up a copy. This particular method of subscription however does not guarantee you a copy like the direct to door subscriptions.
With regards to your point about Facebook, this was a company choice do to the amount of administration effort it was taking to maintain and update. We also decided that our customer interaction should come either directly from us at customer services, or through our other 138 stores and store Facebook pages.
Thank you for your feedback about the fliers, and pdf's, we will make sure that your comments are passed on to the relevant departments.
Best regards, Lydia Games Workshop Customer Service
tel: 0044 (0) 115 91 40000
Open Monday to Friday 9.30am to 6pm
I think they still don't get it that people expect subscriptions to arrive before release day.. But regards the free flier PDFs at least they are passing comment on and that sounds like a little win to me.
I imagine the need to prevent leaks and to drive people into the stores is more important than subscriber satisfaction.
It's not even worth pointing out to them that by the time subscribers get the magazine, any limited edition stuff advertised in it is already sold out.
As to the facebook thing, I'm sure they must realised they've moved the admistration of the page from 1 department to 138 of them, so the admin workload can only increase unless customer service is to plummet further.
Kudos on emailing them though, but I'm hardly surprised by the reply.
Panic wrote: I think they still don't get it that people expect subscriptions to arrive before release day..
But regards the free flier PDFs at least they are passing comment on and that sounds like a little win to me.
If a majority of FLGS actually stopped stocking GW products would it cause a problem? I would imagine a lot of GW players would think not, but are GW pplaced to cope with something like this? They closed a lot of stores or turned them in to one man stores, would they cope with an influx of customers? Would the online store cope? Could GW expand it quick enough to cope with all the gamers no longer going to their FLGS for their fix?
... or would they loose gamers because they couldn't be bothered to drive to their local GW store or is ordering from GW mail order more expensive due to the p&p?
It is very odd behaviour from GW as their t&c's were that you had to have a bricks & morter store so that you could provide the proper gaming experience for customers. Not only do FLGS provide that, they also save GW money in areas that may not justify a GW store, but still have a good turn over of product. GW gets the best of both worlds, somebody funding a retail operation and buying their product, with no extra costs for GW.
It does make you wonder sometimes what goes on at head office.
After reading that email, I don't see why anyone bothered to give Panic a hard time about checking his spelling: that letter had multiple issues too: do vs due, and the sentence "when many issues sell out and of receiving the issue straight to your door" doesn't even make sense. "And of receiving"? I don't even...that's a 7th grade sentence error. I appreciate that they took the time to directly answer his email. But there was no attempt to proof read for errors. This isn't a bash on the letter, so much as letting guys know to chill on Panic: if the company he writes to can't be bothered to proofread, why should he?
timetowaste85 wrote: This isn't a bash on the letter, so much as letting guys know to chill on Panic: if the company he writes to can't be bothered to proofread, why should he?
It is known as talking appropriately to your audience. GWCS figured they better 'spice' their response up a bit.
Wolfstan wrote: If a majority of FLGS actually stopped stocking GW products would it cause a problem? I would imagine a lot of GW players would think not, but are GW pplaced to cope with something like this?
... or would they loose gamers because they couldn't be bothered to drive to their local GW store or is ordering from GW mail order more expensive due to the p&p?
Maybe in Europe this would be fine, as you guys have more GW stores, but in the US, this would suck. GW stores here are few and far between.
Panic wrote: yeah,
so earlier I wrote; including my letter to GW
Spoiler:
Panic wrote: yeah,
All we can do is tell GW what we think they are doing wrong and hope they listen.
So I wrote GW a letter. pointing out why I'm not happy with them at the moment...
email them yourselves if you feel like letting them know how you feel. uk.custserv@gwplc.com
++ letter to GW ++
Sirs,
I hope at this time of public pressure you take the time to think and realise what it is your doing wrong.
I've complained multiple times about being treated poorly as a WD subscriber, receiving my publication frequently after it's street date because you post them out late and your response has been 'that's how we're doing it.'
Your not exactly listening are you?
With regards to the Fliers book, (I've already purchased it. hope the fluff/mission content is good)
I believe that the rules for the Ork DakkaJets/Bommer and Spacemarine Stormtalon should be available as free PDFs...
people who want to use these already have codexs and models. Asking for more is pure greed!
You've given away free unit pdfs before when you released the Eldar night spinner.
I thought that was the start of great things from GW. New units added to a codex for free mid cycle! Yes Please!
Please go back to that kind of thinking! your customers loved it! bought the models.
Add to this the SpaceMarine IP rants your having and you can see why you come across as a Bully.
No one likes a Bully. You know this so why are you acting like one?
I've taken the time to write to you with my ideas and concerns.
Please take the time and consider my email and get back to me.
Panic...
GW fan.
PS Also removing a customer interaction point during a crisis smacks of cowardice.
You don't see tesco deleting their facebook page at the first sign of horse trouble.
++ end of letter ++
Panic...
GW have replied
Spoiler:
GW wrote:Hello Panic,
Thank you for your email.
White Dwarf is released on a Saturday and the first place it becomes available is in retail stores. As a subscriber, your copy will arrive between the release day up until the Wednesday of the following week dependent on your local post service.This is to ensure we do not have leaks of the content before the release day as it is an official Games Workshop product. By subscribing you are guaranteed to receive your copy when many issues sell out and of receiving the issue straight to your door.
If you are unsatisfied with the way that White Dwarf is delivered to subscribers, we do also now offer an in store subscription service, whereby you can purchase in store a booklet of 12 vouchers which are redeemable in any UK Games Workshop store, and can be used either on the day of release or whenever you feel like picking up a copy. This particular method of subscription however does not guarantee you a copy like the direct to door subscriptions.
With regards to your point about Facebook, this was a company choice do to the amount of administration effort it was taking to maintain and update. We also decided that our customer interaction should come either directly from us at customer services, or through our other 138 stores and store Facebook pages.
Thank you for your feedback about the fliers, and pdf's, we will make sure that your comments are passed on to the relevant departments.
Best regards,
Lydia
Games Workshop Customer Service
tel: 0044 (0) 115 91 40000
Open Monday to Friday 9.30am to 6pm
I think they still don't get it that people expect subscriptions to arrive before release day..
But regards the free flier PDFs at least they are passing comment on and that sounds like a little win to me.
Panic...
Oh wow they are still sticking with the "its maintenence" line for their facebook page. Guess its hard to delete comments faster then they are coming in.
timetowaste85 wrote: After reading that email, I don't see why anyone bothered to give Panic a hard time about checking his spelling: that letter had multiple issues too: do vs due, and the sentence "when many issues sell out and of receiving the issue straight to your door" doesn't even make sense. "And of receiving"? I don't even...that's a 7th grade sentence error. I appreciate that they took the time to directly answer his email. But there was no attempt to proof read for errors. This isn't a bash on the letter, so much as letting guys know to chill on Panic: if the company he writes to can't be bothered to proofread, why should he?
Forward note: This isn't a bash on the UK.
I'm very, very tired of GW and their lack of any editorial action on ANYTHING they put forward to the public. You'd think the region that cultivated the English language would put a little effort into checking their material. Be it email or codex.
As for the ban, good for the stores sticking up to the man. Capitalism will be Capitalism...
Wolfstan wrote: If a majority of FLGS actually stopped stocking GW products would it cause a problem? I would imagine a lot of GW players would think not, but are GW pplaced to cope with something like this?
... or would they loose gamers because they couldn't be bothered to drive to their local GW store or is ordering from GW mail order more expensive due to the p&p?
Maybe in Europe this would be fine, as you guys have more GW stores, but in the US, this would suck. GW stores here are few and far between.
My "local" GW store is 122 miles away.
There are no end to Internet discounters, especially for US customers. So access to GW products as a whole would not actually be harder without FLGS for many people who already do without local GWs or FLGS. The issue is without FLGS, many people lose their location to PLAY as well as their network for meeting people to play with. Even a large portion of the organized play 'tourney' circuit is run and sponsored by FLGS at FLGS.
So making it hard for FLGS to sell GW may not impact sales or availability of product, but it WILL impact ability to play the game and that will impact sales. If I can order 10k of models online for 90% off for a game, that does me no good if I have no where to play it or people to play it with.
Would independent gaming clubs pop up? Yes? No? Maybe? I think it is important for FLGS to be supported, but many new games and Miniature companies seem to be popping up as 'Internet only' distributors so they can cut out the middle man and promote play via 'clubs' and independent groups and not store-based gaming. I am unsure of any of those companies will succeed or just be flash in the pan and die out when the Kickstarter hangover is done, but it is interesting to say the least.
White Dwarf is released on a Saturday and the first place it becomes available is in retail stores. As a subscriber, your copy will arrive between the release day up until the Wednesday of the following week dependent on your local post service.This is to ensure we do not have leaks of the content before the release day as it is an official Games Workshop product. By subscribing you are guaranteed to receive your copy when many issues sell out and of receiving the issue straight to your door.
If you are unsatisfied with the way that White Dwarf is delivered to subscribers, we do also now offer an in store subscription service, whereby you can purchase in store a booklet of 12 vouchers which are redeemable in any UK Games Workshop store, and can be used either on the day of release or whenever you feel like picking up a copy. This particular method of subscription however does not guarantee you a copy like the direct to door subscriptions.
With regards to your point about Facebook, this was a company choice do to the amount of administration effort it was taking to maintain and update. We also decided that our customer interaction should come either directly from us at customer services, or through our other 138 stores and store Facebook pages.
Thank you for your feedback about the fliers, and pdf's, we will make sure that your comments are passed on to the relevant departments.
Best regards,
Lydia
Games Workshop Customer Service
tel: 0044 (0) 115 91 40000
Open Monday to Friday 9.30am to 6pm
With regards to your point about Facebook, this was a company choice do to the amount of administration effort it was taking to maintain and update. We also decided that our customer interaction should come either directly from us at customer services, or through our other 138 stores and store Facebook pages.
Ha, ha, ha, ha... I'm assuming from this that their experience of the interweb went badly for them and they pulled back from it again?
Wow I cant even begin to understand some of the responses to this....
This is not the FLGS's trying to mess with people rather it's them trying to send a message to GW that expecting them to allow the use of rules in events they run that they aren't even able to sell the books containing those rules in their store is a little ridicous. And is just another example of GW trying to force people to pay the overblown prices they sell their product for just like the online retailers being unable to ship to Australia rubbish (which it's actually looking like it's going to be classed as a breech of our fair trade laws but hey...).
Enceladus wrote: So much for a mass boycott, the official GW website already claims that it's run out of stock!
Artificially understocking the webstore is what GW does best, they do it with LE codexs and a bunch of other stuff, and in return they get to slap that "sold out" line on it to make you think there is no negativity.
Put it this way, lets say GW made 10,000 copies of death from the skies (probably only made 5000 or less), they only allocate a certain number of that to the webstore, lets say only 1000 copies, those will disappear pretty fast especially when you say "direct only" and then suddenly "holy crap its sold out!". Now every single GW sell bot can use that line make it seem like a hot item, it sounds strange I know, but GW actually make sure they have a constant flow for the GW stores first and formost, thier pre order and GW store stock is seperate from their indy retailers and webstore stock.
Also dont forget about GW employees, with their 50% discount they are pretty much going to order anything they put up, its been well know that back in the day some GW stores survived purely on their staff dumping their paycheques back in.
Artificially understocking the webstore is what GW does best,
Citation needed. Seems made up.
Ravenous D wrote: they do it with LE codexs and a bunch of other stuff, and in return they get to slap that "sold out" line on it to make you think there is no negativity.
Citation needed. Seems made up.
Ravenous D wrote: Put it this way, lets say GW made 10,000 copies of death from the skies (probably only made 5000 or less), they only allocate a certain number of that to the webstore, lets say only 1000 copies, those will disappear pretty fast especially when you say "direct only" and then suddenly "holy crap its sold out!". Now every single GW sell bot can use that line make it seem like a hot item, it sounds strange I know, but GW actually make sure they have a constant flow for the GW stores first and formost, thier pre order and GW store stock is seperate from their indy retailers and webstore stock.
Inflammatory. Slander. Libel. Take your pick. Citation needed.
Ravenous D wrote: its been well know that back in the day some GW stores survived purely on their staff dumping their paycheques back in.
Dose anyone remember a while ago it was said something along the lines that GW doesn't want the average guy to play there game sets. I know it was a while ago and I can't remember exactly was said but maybe this is a way for them to begin the process along with the enormous price hikes and bundles that save you money. Just a thought.
the lines that GW doesn't the average guy to play there game sets.
Some words... you are missing them.
Does GW not count on the average guy to play their game sets? So they mean the average GW customer, the average wargamer, the average person between the ages of x and y.
Ravenous D wrote: Put it this way, lets say GW made 10,000 copies of death from the skies (probably only made 5000 or less), they only allocate a certain number of that to the webstore, lets say only 1000 copies, those will disappear pretty fast especially when you say "direct only" and then suddenly "holy crap its sold out!". Now every single GW sell bot can use that line make it seem like a hot item, it sounds strange I know, but GW actually make sure they have a constant flow for the GW stores first and formost, thier pre order and GW store stock is seperate from their indy retailers and webstore stock.
Inflammatory. Slander. Libel. Take your pick. Citation needed.
How so? It's a pretty standard tactic and I've seen it happen with a few releases (such as the 40K campaign, the DV set, the Hobbit set, all of which were plugged as being sold out quickly so I should buy them now even though they are still available in store months after being sold out online)
As an FLGS gamer and customer, this decision ticks me off because it undermines the profitability of my FLGS.
I have already contacted GW customer service via e-mail expressing my ire over this decision. I intend to call on Tuesday as well.
If you are an FLGS supporter, throwing in your two cents on this unsatisfactory arrangement is worth doing. If you care, but remain silent, don't bitch when it continues.
Cheers,
Nate
If you care you don't email. You don't buy GW products any more.
I disagree. If you care you email that you aren't going to buy GW products anymore and then you stop buying from them.
If you just stop buying from them, how are they supposed to know why they buggered up? They're liable to think people are quitting because the prices are too low and just raise prices Like when video game publishers blame piracy for poor sales, ignoring the fact the game stinks, so the next game they release has more DRM which makes it even less appealing to buy because it has install limits and requires you to be always online.
It's a good idea to let companies know WHY they suck, their marketing departments will just make up whatever excuse otherwise. I'm sure if everyone who ever quit GW products sent GW a letter saying why, we might very well have a different hobby by now.
the lines that GW doesn't the average guy to play there game sets.
Some words... you are missing them.
Does GW not count on the average guy to play their game sets? So they mean the average GW customer, the average wargamer, the average person between the ages of x and y.
Like I said it was a while ago this was said it was even discusses on dakka. I think it was said that they don't want the average person meaning that there stuff was for the richer well to do individuals. Hard to search the exact quote typing on my phone will research properly later.
Thank you for the correction hadn't noticed it before I fixed it.
Easiest way for retailers to fight back on this one is not to ban the book from tournament use, but rather to encourage PDF copies and copy printouts being legal.
Artificially understocking the webstore is what GW does best,
Citation needed. Seems made up.
Ravenous D wrote: they do it with LE codexs and a bunch of other stuff, and in return they get to slap that "sold out" line on it to make you think there is no negativity.
Citation needed. Seems made up.
Ravenous D wrote: Put it this way, lets say GW made 10,000 copies of death from the skies (probably only made 5000 or less), they only allocate a certain number of that to the webstore, lets say only 1000 copies, those will disappear pretty fast especially when you say "direct only" and then suddenly "holy crap its sold out!". Now every single GW sell bot can use that line make it seem like a hot item, it sounds strange I know, but GW actually make sure they have a constant flow for the GW stores first and formost, thier pre order and GW store stock is seperate from their indy retailers and webstore stock.
Inflammatory. Slander. Libel. Take your pick. Citation needed.
Ravenous D wrote: its been well know that back in the day some GW stores survived purely on their staff dumping their paycheques back in.
Citation needed. Seems made up.
It might have been the other death from the skies thread but the number given by GW customer services was 800 copies.
800
If that isn't understocking then I don't know what is.
Also there are still 6 copies of Crusade of Fire in my local GW, but it sold out pretty quick on the website. It's more anecdotal than the last thing but my city has the 6th biggest population in Australia, I find it hard to believe that if the website was properly stocked and sold out there would still be that many copies in the store.
So, whats next? Are we to ban things that aren't sold in stores?
Can I not play with my digital codecies because I purchased them online? Can I not play with my collectors edition rule book because the store didn't get them? Are Sisters banned because stores can't carry them (or their rules)?
So lets also take the next logical step.
Can I not play with models that were not exclusively purchased in that store?
My friend played in a store that would not let you play with an army unless every piece for said army was purchased in that store. Even though he had purchased an entirely new army from that store, if the "old" army ever came out of the case he was asked to leave. Needless to say they're closed now. That may be a sign of things to come over BS like this.
Honestly, I think one of the best ways that FLGS can 'strike back' to begin with is to withdrawl from the partnership program. It's honestly probably not a bad business move either, as the amount of product that GW requires you to have to maintain partner status is rather crazy - and for a lot of stores where other games have become ascendant that means that they are required to carry a *lot* of dead stock. How many people would actually carry LOTR / The Hobbit when they don't even have a group that plays it in the area?
I think one of the reasons why PP stands out to some local game shops is they do not carry their main line products only on an online store - everything is offered through local hobby shops, and it can be a huge boost to business when WM/H kicks off in an area. Wyrd and Corvis Belli do have online storefronts, but generally also don't have the same presence as PP or GW, and in Corvis Belli's case you're ordering from Europe.
Overall though, from what I've generally see boycotting GW is rarely a sink or swim move for any FLGS. What's keeping them afloat now is Magic the Gathering, and that looks to be the case for a good while now.
So, whats next? Are we to ban things that aren't sold in stores?
Can I not play with my digital codecies because I purchased them online? Can I not play with my collectors edition rule book because the store didn't get them? Are Sisters banned because stores can't carry them (or their rules)?
So lets also take the next logical step.
Can I not play with models that were not exclusively purchased in that store?
My friend played in a store that would not let you play with an army unless every piece for said army was purchased in that store. Even though he had purchased an entirely new army from that store, if the "old" army ever came out of the case he was asked to leave. Needless to say they're closed now. That may be a sign of things to come over BS like this.
Your friend being banned from playing with an old army or stuff that wasn't bought in the store, are extreme situations and I can't imagine that many FLGS would be carrying on like this. However I think they have to do something. How many on this site have moaned about GW and not done anything about?
Short disclamer: Yes they are a business and they are there to make money, but they have been taking advantage of their customers for a long time now. This is done as they know they can get new mugs and that a lot of players have too much invested in the hobby to jump ship. End of disclaimer.
FLGS owners have had a rough time now for quite awhile. Stuff like sliding wholesale discounts, restricted stock and holding back on releaases. As I've already mentioned, a good FLGS allows GW stock to be sold from a bricks & morter store that they don'y have to staff or pay the bills for. From other posts it would also appear that they use them for testing the waters before opening a GW store. So again a FLGS does all the work and GW walks in to a ready made customer base. So for the FLGS to now say to GW "screw you" is a fair response. I really hopes it gains momentum and bites them.
Either have the guts to maintain a retail division or drop it completely and rely on FLGS.
Thankfully Foda's FLGS horror story is limited and definitely doesn't seem to be the case. If that were true at more places, I wouldn't be able to play but a smattering of the models I own.
Enceladus wrote: So much for a mass boycott, the official GW website already claims that it's run out of stock!
Artificially understocking the webstore is what GW does best, they do it with LE codexs and a bunch of other stuff, and in return they get to slap that "sold out" line on it to make you think there is no negativity.
Put it this way, lets say GW made 10,000 copies of death from the skies (probably only made 5000 or less), they only allocate a certain number of that to the webstore, lets say only 1000 copies, those will disappear pretty fast especially when you say "direct only" and then suddenly "holy crap its sold out!". Now every single GW sell bot can use that line make it seem like a hot item, it sounds strange I know, but GW actually make sure they have a constant flow for the GW stores first and formost, thier pre order and GW store stock is seperate from their indy retailers and webstore stock..
I can personally attest to the fact GW has thrown away whole pallets of product while claiming "sold out". I can't remember this ever happening in Baltimore, but it did in Memphis several times with new releases. The one that springs to mind immediately was the release of Dark Heresy. Myself and two others (from shipping) were throwing out all the damages/returns when the old manager Doug P wheeled over a pallet and told us to toss them as well. about 40 boxes filled with Dark Heresy.
So, whats next? Are we to ban things that aren't sold in stores?
Can I not play with my digital codecies because I purchased them online? Can I not play with my collectors edition rule book because the store didn't get them? Are Sisters banned because stores can't carry them (or their rules)?
So lets also take the next logical step.
Can I not play with models that were not exclusively purchased in that store?
My friend played in a store that would not let you play with an army unless every piece for said army was purchased in that store. Even though he had purchased an entirely new army from that store, if the "old" army ever came out of the case he was asked to leave. Needless to say they're closed now. That may be a sign of things to come over BS like this.
Your friend being banned from playing with an old army or stuff that wasn't bought in the store, are extreme situations and I can't imagine that many FLGS would be carrying on like this. However I think they have to do something. How many on this site have moaned about GW and not done anything about?
Short disclamer: Yes they are a business and they are there to make money, but they have been taking advantage of their customers for a long time now. This is done as they know they can get new mugs and that a lot of players have too much invested in the hobby to jump ship. End of disclaimer.
FLGS owners have had a rough time now for quite awhile. Stuff like sliding wholesale discounts, restricted stock and holding back on releaases. As I've already mentioned, a good FLGS allows GW stock to be sold from a bricks & morter store that they don'y have to staff or pay the bills for. From other posts it would also appear that they use them for testing the waters before opening a GW store. So again a FLGS does all the work and GW walks in to a ready made customer base. So for the FLGS to now say to GW "screw you" is a fair response. I really hopes it gains momentum and bites them.
Either have the guts to maintain a retail division or drop it completely and rely on FLGS.
The thing is, though, the FLGS repsonse is to punish the customers and hope that they get mad at GW.
Enceladus wrote: So much for a mass boycott, the official GW website already claims that it's run out of stock!
Artificially understocking the webstore is what GW does best, they do it with LE codexs and a bunch of other stuff, and in return they get to slap that "sold out" line on it to make you think there is no negativity.
Put it this way, lets say GW made 10,000 copies of death from the skies (probably only made 5000 or less), they only allocate a certain number of that to the webstore, lets say only 1000 copies, those will disappear pretty fast especially when you say "direct only" and then suddenly "holy crap its sold out!". Now every single GW sell bot can use that line make it seem like a hot item, it sounds strange I know, but GW actually make sure they have a constant flow for the GW stores first and formost, thier pre order and GW store stock is seperate from their indy retailers and webstore stock..
I can personally attest to the fact GW has thrown away whole pallets of product while claiming "sold out". I can't remember this ever happening in Baltimore, but it did in Memphis several times with new releases. The one that springs to mind immediately was the release of Dark Heresy. Myself and two others (from shipping) were throwing out all the damages/returns when the old manager Doug P wheeled over a pallet and told us to toss them as well. about 40 boxes filled with Dark Heresy.
It could have been in error, but I doubt it.
Ah to bad I don't live there or I would have gone dumpster diving that day. Had an flags catch fire near me. Some dork left a space heater on in the back room >.<. Any way they had a lot of the old metal minis in there. The models were fine they just had smoke damage on the packaging. Couldn't sell them though be user of insurance. Doh, would have totally chased after the garbage truck for those models had I been there that day.
RuneGrey wrote: Honestly, I think one of the best ways that FLGS can 'strike back' to begin with is to withdrawl from the partnership program. It's honestly probably not a bad business move either, as the amount of product that GW requires you to have to maintain partner status is rather crazy - and for a lot of stores where other games have become ascendant that means that they are required to carry a *lot* of dead stock. How many people would actually carry LOTR / The Hobbit when they don't even have a group that plays it in the area?
I think one of the reasons why PP stands out to some local game shops is they do not carry their main line products only on an online store - everything is offered through local hobby shops, and it can be a huge boost to business when WM/H kicks off in an area. Wyrd and Corvis Belli do have online storefronts, but generally also don't have the same presence as PP or GW, and in Corvis Belli's case you're ordering from Europe.
Overall though, from what I've generally see boycotting GW is rarely a sink or swim move for any FLGS. What's keeping them afloat now is Magic the Gathering, and that looks to be the case for a good while now.
GWs demands for the partnership program makes it seem like a pyramid scheme. Even if you manage to sell X dollars of LotR crap you have to replace it with X more dollars of LotR crap. It's a guarenteed sale for them even if you'll never sell it. If your stores player base is 98% 40k and 2% Fantasy and 0% LotR you get boned really hard having to waste space on your shelves for stuff you never or not likely to sell. The shop couldn't even sell the LotR stuff for 75% off. Just a few pieces to the players that are good at moding.
Goat wrote:If your stores player base is 98% 40k and 2% Fantasy and 0% LotR you get boned really hard having to waste space on your shelves for stuff you never or not likely to sell. The shop couldn't even sell the LotR stuff for 75% off. Just a few pieces to the players that are good at moding.
Mixing LotR and other lines makes Baby Jervis cry!
Its not made up, I know for a fact they do this, they started doing it with white dwarf when they cut the print number in half.
The reality is Ravenous doesn't really know. He has an idea that may or may not be the truth. His idea fits his malicious image of GW so he runs with it. He can't prove what he says and will claim that he used to work for the company therefor he's completely familiar with their inner workings, despite admitedly being a regular red shirt who wouldn't be privvy to these decisions.
Ah to bad I don't live there or I would have gone dumpster diving that day. Had an flags catch fire near me. Some dork left a space heater on in the back room >.<. Any way they had a lot of the old metal minis in there. The models were fine they just had smoke damage on the packaging. Couldn't sell them though be user of insurance. Doh, would have totally chased after the garbage truck for those models had I been there that day.
You'd have to live in Memphis.
Back when I worked there a couple of guys in shipping had a racket going where they would accidentally damage product they wanted and put it on the damages pallet. When the pallet was emptied at the end of the day into the compacter they wouldn't hit the "compact" button so the product remained intact. After work that same day they'd wait for the truck to come and haul it away to the dump and follow it. You could pay a fee to go into the dump to salvage. They'd ask where truck number "X" emptied and go there to pick up everything that was thrown out, including some molds.
I don't know what they did with all that stuff, likely they Ebay'd it. I remember one day 15 boxes of those limited "Imperial Cities" terrain set were thrown out, they got all of those.
You guys would shudder at the sheer amount of product that gets trashed every week at the Memphis GWHQ. I was told that it would cost more to recycle the plastics and metal than it would to just throw it out.
At least back in Baltimore they used to have Bob's Bargain Basement sales for staff. We used to be able to buy damaged product at a huge discount. Regiment boxes IIRC, were $5 each, books $2.etc.
BlueDagger wrote: Easiest way for retailers to fight back on this one is not to ban the book from tournament use, but rather to encourage PDF copies and copy printouts being legal.
Then people wouldn't buy army books at the store either....
BlueDagger wrote: Easiest way for retailers to fight back on this one is not to ban the book from tournament use, but rather to encourage PDF copies and copy printouts being legal.
Then people wouldn't buy army books at the store either....
There's also probably a legal grey area in businesses encouraging people to break copyrights. A less legally hazy approach would be to encourage player sharing or to have a set of store copies to browse.
I don't quite understand all the hate for this product.
People were complaining that the rules for their flyers were not available because they could not purchase the relevant White Dwarf updates. So, after being inundated with these complaints, Games Workshop decides to release the rules for these flyers so people have access to them - at the same time they might as well update some of the old flyers. Sounds fine to me. People get access to the rules they previously didn't have access to and GW gets to put out a niche product for these people who have been complaining for rules-access.
Yes, they could have released the rules for free. But, GW is a business and they say an entirely reasonable opportunity to put together a decent product and release it - with some added content, so that people might want to buy it for more than just access to the WD rules.
Now, given that this was supposed to be a niche product to satisfy people who wanted access to the unaccessable WD rules, it makes sense they don't want to commit all sorts of production resources to this release, as it's supposed to just be a stop-gap until codexes get released. It makes sense it is direct only. I understand that it sucks for independent retailers to not have access to new products, but this is really supposed to be a marginal one. Video game retailers don't ban certain companies for only selling marginal DLC content directly. I can understand these retailers being upset at GW, but there response is a little melodramatic.
I may be wrong about my opinions regarding the business and retail, given that I don't have access to actual numbers regarding expected sales, production costs, schedules, etc, but I definitely feel like people should be happy this product is now available. People complained that the rules weren't available - now they are!
Now, given that this was supposed to be a niche product to satisfy people who wanted access to the unaccessable WD rules, it makes sense they don't want to commit all sorts of production resources to this release, as it's supposed to just be a stop-gap until codexes get released. It makes sense it is direct only. I understand that it sucks for independent retailers to not have access to new products, but this is really supposed to be a marginal one. Video game retailers don't ban certain companies for only selling marginal DLC content directly. I can understand these retailers being upset at GW, but there response is a little melodramatic.
I agree with you there. As a stop gap, there is no point in really putting out a full release book. Especially one that doesn't actually add anything like a second wave of flyers or stuff to counter them. In reality it's just GW's way of collecting all they've done so far and selling it in a manner that means there isn't as much stock and the FLGS won't have to worry about carrying something that likely won't sell that much anyhow.
Now, given that this was supposed to be a niche product to satisfy people who wanted access to the unaccessable WD rules, it makes sense they don't want to commit all sorts of production resources to this release, as it's supposed to just be a stop-gap until codexes get released. It makes sense it is direct only. I understand that it sucks for independent retailers to not have access to new products, but this is really supposed to be a marginal one. Video game retailers don't ban certain companies for only selling marginal DLC content directly. I can understand these retailers being upset at GW, but there response is a little melodramatic.
I agree with you there. As a stop gap, there is no point in really putting out a full release book. Especially one that doesn't actually add anything like a second wave of flyers or stuff to counter them. In reality it's just GW's way of collecting all they've done so far and selling it in a manner that means there isn't as much stock and the FLGS won't have to worry about carrying something that likely won't sell that much anyhow.
Why bother going through the whole rigmarole to begin with, then? If it's supposed to be so marginal and insignificant, just post a PDF with the rules.
Why bother going through the whole rigmarole to begin with, then? If it's supposed to be so marginal and insignificant, just post a PDF with the rules.
Because people will pay for it so why not take the money?
Now, given that this was supposed to be a niche product to satisfy people who wanted access to the unaccessable WD rules, it makes sense they don't want to commit all sorts of production resources to this release, as it's supposed to just be a stop-gap until codexes get released. It makes sense it is direct only. I understand that it sucks for independent retailers to not have access to new products, but this is really supposed to be a marginal one. Video game retailers don't ban certain companies for only selling marginal DLC content directly. I can understand these retailers being upset at GW, but there response is a little melodramatic.
I agree with you there. As a stop gap, there is no point in really putting out a full release book. Especially one that doesn't actually add anything like a second wave of flyers or stuff to counter them. In reality it's just GW's way of collecting all they've done so far and selling it in a manner that means there isn't as much stock and the FLGS won't have to worry about carrying something that likely won't sell that much anyhow.
Why bother going through the whole rigmarole to begin with, then? If it's supposed to be so marginal and insignificant, just post a PDF with the rules.
Because as the project starts to be put together, it starts to look like it could make some money. Just like with the Skyrim DLC - each of those DLC projects started as side projects from the game designers, which actually turned into something that could make them some money.
Another thing I didn't mention is that shipping costs to independent retailers would make a niche product release like this one cost prohibitive - give that GW foots the shipping cost (am I correct on that?).
BlueDagger wrote: Easiest way for retailers to fight back on this one is not to ban the book from tournament use, but rather to encourage PDF copies and copy printouts being legal.
Then people wouldn't buy army books at the store either....
Yep, and it decreases sales for the indy retailers.
A far, far better way is to make sure they are stocking many other ranges and get lots of GW game tourneys up and running with stand in armies full of mantic, avatars of war, gamezone miniatures, warlord etc.
Put expertly painted and converted armies of nonGW minis designed into armies to play GW games into display cabinets.
You want to punt GW in the kidneys, show them your customer base enjoying their games with other people's hardware. Your store, your rules. Oh, wait, perhaps they'll get rid of your prize support for the tourn.... oh yeah, they already did that. Perhaps you'll be subjected to poor retailer suppor... oh yeah, did that as well...
Put a mantic corporation army done as imperial guard in a case, perhaps with a price breakdown for the customer to see what they'd save, and a sign reminding them that this army will be welcome at your store's events.
Now, given that this was supposed to be a niche product to satisfy people who wanted access to the unaccessable WD rules, it makes sense they don't want to commit all sorts of production resources to this release, as it's supposed to just be a stop-gap until codexes get released. It makes sense it is direct only. I understand that it sucks for independent retailers to not have access to new products, but this is really supposed to be a marginal one. Video game retailers don't ban certain companies for only selling marginal DLC content directly. I can understand these retailers being upset at GW, but there response is a little melodramatic.
I agree with you there. As a stop gap, there is no point in really putting out a full release book. Especially one that doesn't actually add anything like a second wave of flyers or stuff to counter them. In reality it's just GW's way of collecting all they've done so far and selling it in a manner that means there isn't as much stock and the FLGS won't have to worry about carrying something that likely won't sell that much anyhow.
Why bother going through the whole rigmarole to begin with, then? If it's supposed to be so marginal and insignificant, just post a PDF with the rules.
Because as the project starts to be put together, it starts to look like it could make some money. Just like with the Skyrim DLC - each of those DLC projects started as side projects from the game designers, which actually turned into something that could make them some money.
Another thing I didn't mention is that shipping costs to independent retailers would make a niche product release like this one cost prohibitive - give that GW foots the shipping cost (am I correct on that?).
Product is shipped to most indies every week, a new SKU is not some aberration that cannot be handled by existing logistics.
Product is shipped to most indies every week, a new SKU is not some aberration that cannot be handled by existing logistics
Yeah that is true. But if you look at the site, the book is already sold out meaning it was another one of those limited run books. If you're only printing 1000 to 5000 books, then selling them in house is the most economical way to do that. Though in all reality GW does need to start communicating more with it's retailers and working with them to prevent this kind of anger.
When the CSM and DA dexes dropped my FLGS tried to order a limited ed for me but couldn't because GW won't allow them to purchase them at the merchant discount and resell them. While this does mean GW isn't losing money on the limited run books (though they may very well be) they could have worked with the FLGS to help them understand why and maybe even come up with some sort of compromise that would have made everything better.
Product is shipped to most indies every week, a new SKU is not some aberration that cannot be handled by existing logistics
Yeah that is true. But if you look at the site, the book is already sold out meaning it was another one of those limited run books. If you're only printing 1000 to 5000 books, then selling them in house is the most economical way to do that. Though in all reality GW does need to start communicating more with it's retailers and working with them to prevent this kind of anger.
When the CSM and DA dexes dropped my FLGS tried to order a limited ed for me but couldn't because GW won't allow them to purchase them at the merchant discount and resell them. While this does mean GW isn't losing money on the limited run books (though they may very well be) they could have worked with the FLGS to help them understand why and maybe even come up with some sort of compromise that would have made everything better.
Yes, we used to inform GW in advance of release how many of each product we wanted for the first few weeks. I am sure that information is useful for their planning.
Its interesting, I have a Lone Star Comics near my house (a pretty big chain here with above 15 stores in cities across Texas) and they dropped their entire GW line. Because of their location being so close to a major college, I assume its because they make a lot more money in their novelty items and board games. Its become too expensive, they may be the first war game, but they won't be the last.
It takes a huge amount of noise to actually make GW sit up and take notice. If no one complains, they think "See! The plan is working, time to shovel more bs onto the independent stores. What can they do?"
You're right in general, but I think that even when people make noise, GW reacts negatively anyway.
No noise = "See! The plan is working, time to shovel more bs onto the independent stores. What can they do?"
Noise = "The customers/FLGS are WRONG! Stupid people buying/selling our product... CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALALALALA!!!!"
GW has shown itself to have a phenomenal capacity for ignoring real problems and legitimate complaints from any and all constituencies, from players to game store owners. The only people who seem to make out well are the management, who, as seems de rigeur in the corporate world today, get golden parachutes while everyone else who has an interest in the company's success get gakked on.
Why bother going through the whole rigmarole to begin with, then? If it's supposed to be so marginal and insignificant, just post a PDF with the rules.
Because people will pay for it so why not take the money?
Because it will generate negative reactions, it may result in some customers rejecting the entire product line, it creates an additional cost to some customers and it changes the unspoken contract between the producer and the consumer.
People were complaining that the rules for their flyers were not available because they could not purchase the relevant White Dwarf updates. So, after being inundated with these complaints, Games Workshop decides to release the rules for these flyers so people have access to them - at the same time they might as well update some of the old flyers. Sounds fine to me. People get access to the rules they previously didn't have access to and GW gets to put out a niche product for these people who have been complaining for rules-access.
So you honestly don't understand why someone who just needs the Storm Talon rules might be upset at having to pay $48 plus shipping instead of $11 for them?
Yes, they could have released the rules for free.
They could also have released them as a paid download. 'Free' or '$50 book' are not the only two options here...
Now, given that this was supposed to be a niche product to satisfy people who wanted access to the unaccessable WD rules, it makes sense they don't want to commit all sorts of production resources to this release, as it's supposed to just be a stop-gap until codexes get released. It makes sense it is direct only.
A PDF download would have committed even fewer resources... and would have been available to everyone with an internet connection.
For that matter, just running off another run of the relevant white dwarf and making it available as a backissue would have also committed fewer resources.
but I definitely feel like people should be happy this product is now available. People complained that the rules weren't available - now they are!
Except it's not, is it? On account of being sold out and so no longer available until they print more...
rollawaythestone wrote: Now, given that this was supposed to be a niche product to satisfy people who wanted access to the unaccessable WD rules, it makes sense they don't want to commit all sorts of production resources to this release, as it's supposed to just be a stop-gap until codexes get released. It makes sense it is direct only.
A PDF download would have committed even fewer resources... and would have been available to everyone with an internet connection.
For that matter, just running off another run of the relevant white dwarf and making it available as a backissue would have also committed fewer resources...
It might have even made GW just as much money as this print run if people are rushing out to buy models to use with their new free PDF.
With next to no extra effort.
A far, far better way is to make sure they are stocking many other ranges and get lots of GW game tourneys up and running with stand in armies full of mantic, avatars of war, gamezone miniatures, warlord etc.
I don't know about that. My gaming group pretty much refuses to buy into other game systems. A couple saw AT-43 fall apart and now view anything outside Warmachine as milk just waiting to go bad. I'd love to get into Dust Tactics, but really don't want to buy two armies and beg people to play.
As crappy as GW's retailer support/attitude is it's the thing I can get a game with minimal fuss.
A far, far better way is to make sure they are stocking many other ranges and get lots of GW game tourneys up and running with stand in armies full of mantic, avatars of war, gamezone miniatures, warlord etc.
I don't know about that. My gaming group pretty much refuses to buy into other game systems. A couple saw AT-43 fall apart and now view anything outside Warmachine as milk just waiting to go bad.
I'm saying build armies for GW games from other ranges.
The reality is Ravenous doesn't really know. He has an idea that may or may not be the truth. His idea fits his malicious image of GW so he runs with it. He can't prove what he says and will claim that he used to work for the company therefor he's completely familiar with their inner workings, despite admitedly being a regular red shirt who wouldn't be privvy to these decisions.
Of course, clearly you know all about being a red shirt and the people you meet inside the company.
Listen, I congratulate GW whenever they do something good, but I am also the same guy that will jump on them when they do something terrible, and it just so happens that the company that you think can do no wrong tends to make a lot of stupid and border line malicious choices and want to do nothing about their public image. Thier motto is "integrity, honesty and courage", and they are showing none of those qualities, and guess what? Some of us know GW can be better and have been better, so sor-f'ing-ry if I actually want them to change for the better rather then people like you that would just like for things to get worse and do nothing about it other then laying down and taking it.
Here's the realtiy, they have made rules for free for years when they are mistaken or need to stop gap, they have made better books with more content, and they didnt retailers, and you're going to sit there and say everything is fine and that we should shut up about it? Good job, pal, you're part of the problem.
People were complaining that the rules for their flyers were not available because they could not purchase the relevant White Dwarf updates. So, after being inundated with these complaints, Games Workshop decides to release the rules for these flyers so people have access to them - at the same time they might as well update some of the old flyers. Sounds fine to me. People get access to the rules they previously didn't have access to and GW gets to put out a niche product for these people who have been complaining for rules-access.
Yes, they could have released the rules for free. But, GW is a business and they say an entirely reasonable opportunity to put together a decent product and release it - with some added content, so that people might want to buy it for more than just access to the WD rules.
Now, given that this was supposed to be a niche product to satisfy people who wanted access to the unaccessable WD rules, it makes sense they don't want to commit all sorts of production resources to this release, as it's supposed to just be a stop-gap until codexes get released. It makes sense it is direct only. I understand that it sucks for independent retailers to not have access to new products, but this is really supposed to be a marginal one. Video game retailers don't ban certain companies for only selling marginal DLC content directly. I can understand these retailers being upset at GW, but there response is a little melodramatic.
I may be wrong about my opinions regarding the business and retail, given that I don't have access to actual numbers regarding expected sales, production costs, schedules, etc, but I definitely feel like people should be happy this product is now available. People complained that the rules weren't available - now they are!
The hate is coming from the access to the said product.
Long story short- You can't get the book from the LGS, friendly or not. GW has made it, by the OP's find- a get it from GW only book.
Miniatures gaming is a community sport. If you don't have a community, you have no game. And while I can see that you only look at it through "GW as a business" eyes, the point here that is the issue of contention is that GW has removed gaming from thier said stores, reduced distribution or made such distribution so taxing that it is beginning to be less and less attractive to a LGS (Friendly or not) to try to work within the ever shifting environment of GW's Local Game store support. As for melodramatic, it is melodramatic on both sides of the coin.
Take yourself out of siding on this issue and look at the big picture of the meta-gaming that it is going to develop over time, because THAT is where you as the "Loyal customer" are squarly setting. The metagame will change, because fewer people will buy the book, or have access to the book that contains rules to a unit/ model that you have to pay for to play the game. Bottom line up front on that is that it is now then made an incomplete product, and you have to fork over twice as much for the same model simply to field the unit/ model.
First, you remove access to the product, and increase a price on it. ( you can only buy the book through thier website, or thier store.)
second, make anyone else who distributes your product inconvenient to the point where your game is only going to be distributed through the company store.
Third, make the product incomplete, so you have to continue to come back to the company store for additional products/ content.
Rinse, repeat. (It is bottom feeding at its best.)
Yesterday, it was FW products, IA books,Today, it looks like th flyer book. Tommorrow, it might be special characters, or land raiders/ heavy tanks.
The point is that "GW as a business" is removing the business from the description and attempting to block FLG store access. Thereby keeping you, the "Loyal customer" pointed to the "One man store" model and buy the lost tomb at infernal prices. ( By the way, how far and how much will you actually pay for a book? GW will find out.)
The complaints are valid issues on the table, in that they are questioning the future of the service/ business/ game.
Please read through the thread for the dig and dags that are continueing to crop up between the side taking, because at the end of the day- The action from BOTH sides is suicidal to the whole, and it is YOUR issue as a miniatures game player or GW miniatures game player, if you want to continue to play the game, or any game for that matter. ( First GW tries this, then Priveteer Press no doubt follows suit.... Then Corvus Bell, then Mantic, then the indipendents... then another, then another...)
nkelsch wrote: Can I say this is an insulting scam to valued customers? So for me trading in a current edition rulebook, I can get 20$ off a 50$ Starter set?
$20 for a second hand rulebook seems like a reasonable price to me... It's not much less than I would expect to get if I sold it on eBay, and you're never going to get as much for a trade-in (for any product) as it is actually worth, since the store still needs to make a profit when they sell it on.
"since the store still needs to make a profit"
They NEED to make a profit? If they were really committed to their ideals, they'd be willing to break even, or even take a small los up-front to move a customer to another product line that has better margins over the long haul.
Lockark wrote: Wait. When I read the 1st post I understood it as that these stores were banning the rules from use in their tournaments, but are they also banning it's use from pick-up play?
That's up to individual stores. I know Pat considers the book contraband and doesn't wand to see it in his store.
I'm just saying not for organized play, which means open gaming is fine. Heck, you can play little green army men during our open gaming, if you want.
Also, easy solution to this? Move this book into another order category, even a direct sales item makes it available to stores, albeit it at a poor discount. I would lift my ban if they would throw us a bone.
If you feel this strongly about it, is Black Diamond Games going to stop ordering from GW at all? Will you skip the next month or two of ordering from GW, to send a message?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
blackdiamond wrote: "But you are making your customers hostages with your actions which seems rude and would turn off customers."
I can certainly see that now.
This is something that seemed like a minor thing, like banning a Forge World book. Now it seems to have a significance that wasn't fully understood (mostly because GW kept it a secret from us). The last thing I would want is to offend our customers, which it seems I've done tremendously well today. It would have been better to have simply dropped all 40K events or made an inventory decision, not that I plan to do those things yet. That's a more traditional retail way of solving problems with suppliers. I would certainly like to walk this one back, but I also see it as a direct attack from Games Workshop that can't be ignored.
Well there's a simple solution; don't ignore it. Have Black Diamond Games stop carrying Games Workshop product completelty, and offer trade-ins for Warmachine. Banning a book doesn't do very much
Well after this move from GW and the leaks from the daemons release, I'd suggest retailers just stop carrying GW at all. Until they stop their money grab with low quality productions.
Building armies for GW from other ranges is good for the customer. It might not be as good for the store. Like it or not the mark up on GW products means that if someone built an IG army from Mantic Corporation dudes then the store is going to make 1/3 to 1/2 as much from their customer. That impacts the stores bottom line pretty significantly. Basically stores would have to move twice as much product to get to the same place.
Just pointing it out. It's one of the reasons a local store doesn't carry Mantic in fact. I do think that the way GW handled this update in regards to it's independent stockists was poor.
nkelsch wrote: Can I say this is an insulting scam to valued customers? So for me trading in a current edition rulebook, I can get 20$ off a 50$ Starter set?
$20 for a second hand rulebook seems like a reasonable price to me... It's not much less than I would expect to get if I sold it on eBay, and you're never going to get as much for a trade-in (for any product) as it is actually worth, since the store still needs to make a profit when they sell it on.
I actually recently sold my used hardcover 40k rulebook on ebay, and I got $55 for it + $10.05 shipping (I ended-up paying over $11 shipping, but oh well). Maybe if you were selling a used mini rulebook out of a starter box you should expect $20.
They NEED to make a profit? If they were really committed to their ideals, they'd be willing to break even, or even take a small los up-front to move a customer to another product line that has better margins over the long haul.
Yeah that is kinda the point of a store. To sell something and make a profit.
Why should they take time to sell things and break even or loose money? Do store owners have bottomless piles of money that they just want to give away?
This smacks of willful ignorance. Or sarcasm. I can't tell which.
Building armies for GW from other ranges is good for the customer. It might not be as good for the store. Like it or not the mark up on GW products means that if someone built an IG army from Mantic Corporation dudes then the store is going to make 1/3 to 1/2 as much from their customer. That impacts the stores bottom line pretty significantly. Basically stores would have to move twice as much product to get to the same place.
Just pointing it out. It's one of the reasons a local store doesn't carry Mantic in fact. I do think that the way GW handled this update in regards to it's independent stockists was poor.
The flip-side though is that lower prices encourage that extra purchasing. I myself have bought Reaper sculpts for HQ choices in 40k/Fantasy that I'd never buy otherwise, so while they may have to sell more to make a up the difference in selling a GW product, it's also important to note the ways in which it compares to making no sale, which is of course rather favorably.
Also, I heard before that GW gives a smaller percentage of profits to gaming stores than other companies do (having the stores at-cost closer to MSRP than other companies) but perhaps I was mislead on this?
They NEED to make a profit? If they were really committed to their ideals, they'd be willing to break even, or even take a small los up-front to move a customer to another product line that has better margins over the long haul.
Yeah that is kinda the point of a store. To sell something and make a profit.
Why should they take time to sell things and break even or loose money? Do store owners have bottomless piles of money that they just want to give away?
This smacks of willful ignorance. Or sarcasm. I can't tell which.
You see a rule book for $50 and a starter set for $50. Most people aren't going to go "all in" and buy both (plus potentially paints, brushes, basing material, how-to paint/assemble guides).
You see a rule book for $20 and a starter set for $50. Most people are much more likely to buy both.
But you also need to take into account a secondary distributor which takes a small percentage. If you get your product from GW it's likely (outside of direct order) to be similarly costed. Hence the pretty universal 20% found on most products. Store owners can correct me if I'm wrong.
And yes, while it might encourage someone to pick up a few more models they might not have purchased due to price that additional sale might not make up the difference of the loss of a person building an entire army out of mantic product (example). It's not cut and dry by any means but I know a fair few stores who don't view it as a long term profitable move.
That being said models of comparable cost that can be used as GW stand-in's I do see more often. Things that are of equal or are only 5-10% different do make appearances. I expect Dreamforge to be picked up by several local stores as possible stand-ins for IG/Sisters but they aren't to much cheaper than GW and are of similar quality.
Hulksmash wrote: I expect Dreamforge to be picked up by several local stores as possible stand-ins for IG/Sisters but they aren't to much cheaper than GW and are of similar quality.
Posted before reading the spoiler, you got me Mr. Steamdragon!!!!!
But they really are spectacular and the kind of product that a store could shift people to as it wouldn't hurt the bottom line nearly as badly initially and long term could equalize.
BlueDagger wrote: Easiest way for retailers to fight back on this one is not to ban the book from tournament use, but rather to encourage PDF copies and copy printouts being legal.
Then people wouldn't buy army books at the store either....
There's also probably a legal grey area in businesses encouraging people to break copyrights. A less legally hazy approach would be to encourage player sharing or to have a set of store copies to browse.
Store owners also do not have a responsibility to zealously or actively enforce Games Workshop's intellectual property rights. It does not seem that wrong to me to assume that each and every printed copy of a rulebook in one's store is a legally-produced backup copy used to maintain the condition of a legally purchased copy of said work of art.
It also does not strike me as illegal to come right out and suggest that your customers bring backup copies of their rulebooks instead of the originals. Of course, I am not a lawyer and folks can do what they like.
I think the book was a stopgap, and they didn't expect it to sell well, or that piracy has taken its toll on the industry. Mongoose Publishing has stated that they only expect to sell a few hundred copies of an RPG release.
Goliath wrote: They aren't allowed to run sales due to the fact that they manufacture the products, and sell them, and sell them to other shops to be sold by them. If they ran a sale it would be disadvantaging the FLGSs, with nothing they could do, which is illegal due to competition laws. (I believe, I heard this from a lawyer who specifically worked in that area, but there is a possibility that it may be incorrect)
They used to have sales. From memory I've seen 4 or 5, just individual GW stores having sales.
I remember my local GW having a sale of sorts on bulk purchases of IG Tanks and Armageddon models like the Baneblade, Stompa, and assorted other stuff a couple of years back. The reason I remember it so well is because one of the more eccentric members of my local gaming group spent his entire wedding fund on tanks in one transaction - £7,500. It was such a large transaction that the till wouldn't accept it, as it thought it was a store stock request.
Needless to say his marriage never went ahead. He is now very much single.
Probably got the better end of that deal. Gaming gear is forever, women get old and dumpy.
They NEED to make a profit? If they were really committed to their ideals, they'd be willing to break even, or even take a small los up-front to move a customer to another product line that has better margins over the long haul.
Yeah that is kinda the point of a store. To sell something and make a profit.
Why should they take time to sell things and break even or loose money? Do store owners have bottomless piles of money that they just want to give away?
This smacks of willful ignorance. Or sarcasm. I can't tell which.
The point of a business is to make money, but if they feel that strongly about it they'd be willing to "take one for the team" so to speak. I see a lot of huffing and puffing, but not of these retailers are cutting back on their orders, dropping GW, or doing anything that would cause GW any concern. They're not willing to break even on the GW for WM trade, they even insist on a profit on that. They won't even do a break-even trade, which, if you though GW was so evil, you would do
It's like all the people that huff and puff about politics, but can't take the time to vote, or even to make time (money) for it.
If they can't take the pain of a small loss in the short-term (which could be argued is a loss leader anyway) to make more money in the long run, or just to send a message, then what good are these complaints.
BarBoBot wrote: I should be shocked that someone thinks stores should sell things at a loss and still stay in business, but somehow I'm not surprised.
Please show where anyone has said "sell everything at a loss"
Loss Leaders are a real thing - consoles are a perfect example.
You quoted what I said, then managed to somehow misquote me in your post.
Someone else put forth the notion that if retailers really cared they would sell items at a loss and hope it turns into repeat business. Small brick and mortar stores are not console makers. They don't have millions to risk. Get some perspective
BarBoBot wrote: I should be shocked that someone thinks stores should sell things at a loss and still stay in business, but somehow I'm not surprised.
Please show where anyone has said "sell everything at a loss"
Loss Leaders are a real thing - consoles are a perfect example.
You quoted what I said, then managed to somehow misquote me in your post.
Someone else put forth the notion that if retailers really cared they would sell items at a loss and hope it turns into repeat business. Small brick and mortar stores are not console makers. They don't have millions to risk. Get some perspective
I have some perspective. Small B&Ms can gain a significant amount from loss leaders. My old FLGS sold all rulebooks at cost or below (if allowed to by contract) because he made a significant amount of money on the minis.
He went out of business because his partner stole a few hundred grand from the business, not because the loss leaders meant he lost money.
I remember people posting theories about these tactics in the past. GW basically plans to be the only seller of their products making them 'exclusive'. Especially when they say much of their profit are the first time buyers. Who and when you play with is your problem the way they see it after little jimmy buys his battleforce.
BarBoBot wrote: I should be shocked that someone thinks stores should sell things at a loss and still stay in business, but somehow I'm not surprised.
Depends on how deep your convictions are. Democrats stood in line for hours and got a new President. Republicans stood in line for hours, and all they got was a gakky chicken sandwich.
Retailers wanna complain about GW, but what, really, are they going to do about it? Skip next week's order. Drop the line? Offer GW for PP stuff at a break even price? Offer GW for PP stuff at a loss leader price, knowing you'll make it back in the long run?
They're doing none of that.
It's just a bunch of internet whining and tryiong to make a profit by trading GW for PP at a profit. If they were really so hurt, if they really cared so much, they'd do it at a break-even point, (and yes, maybe even at a loss) skip next month's GW order, or drop GW entirely.
We're seeing none of that, making this just so much hot air.
Someone else put forth the notion that if retailers really cared they would sell items at a loss and hope it turns into repeat business. Small brick and mortar stores are not console makers. They don't have millions to risk. Get some perspective
Ahh, but that's the question - how much are you willing to risk? Writing a ranting screed on the internet takes nothing but time, offering a trade in-program is time-intensive, but offering such a program at a break even or even a loss leader price? That would truly show your displeasure with GW. It may not even be a loss, it could be a loss leader as people switch to PP, which may have better margins.
Exactly moopy. Uninformed people see these things through rose colored glasses. They think running a business is simple, and that all business owners are greedy. Reality is that small shops are not making tons of money... In fact it's usually other things (Mtg) that make them enough money to stay in business.
Implying that they don't care unless they sell you items at cost or at a loss is moronic.
BarBoBot wrote: Exactly moopy. Uninformed people see these things through rose colored glasses. They think running a business is simple, and that all business owners are greedy. Reality is that small shops are not making tons of money... In fact it's usually other things (Mtg) that make them enough money to stay in business.
Implying that they don't care unless they sell you items at cost or at a loss is moronic.
QFT.
Running a business right now is not easy. Most of us are hoping just to ride out the bad economy. Some of us are thriving, most aren't. Many are going away.
If find it so ironic. A couple retailers react strongly to something, and lots of gamers go on and on about how unprofessional they are, etc. The same gamers will rant for 10 pages about a minor rules change.
Many of us can't just drop GW. It's an important part of our business. At the same time, we are watching the company that we used to have a decent relationship with, take many steps to hurt our sales, and steal the business we built up.
If someone of us get dramatic and take a few steps you feel are "unprofessional", remember that this is our livlihood we are talking about. Stores are on a pretty thin profit margin. Many of us take things seriously and are very worried about what else GW is going to do in the future. Just sitting and taking it won't change their minds. Maybe enough outcry will get their attention.
I yelled and screamed and worked with them for years. Really used to love the company. Now I'm just tired and don't care anymore. I'm glad that other stores are willing to fight with them. Death from the Skies was the thing that finally made me sit back and decide that Homer Simpson is right. "Why try?"
BarBoBot wrote: Exactly moopy. Uninformed people see these things through rose colored glasses. They think running a business is simple, and that all business owners are greedy. Reality is that small shops are not making tons of money... In fact it's usually other things (Mtg) that make them enough money to stay in business.
Implying that they don't care unless they sell you items at cost or at a loss is moronic.
FYI, I wasn't trying to imply that. Your post seemed to say that that sort of thing could never happen, when it actually happens quite often.
I'm not trying to be combative, I was just pointing that out.
Target and Walmart can afford loss leaders, but I assure you that your FLGS is not in any position to "break even" on anything, or sell at a loss. As a brick & mortar game store owner myself, I promise you there is a magic percentage (let's call it 45%) and if I'm not averaging that much profit with respect to my sales, I'm not making ends meet. Most gaming products have wholesale discounts in the 40-50% range, so it's already an incredibly fine line to be walking. If I skew too far toward that 40%, it is literally the end of my store. Small business math is pretty unforgiving.
As for GW and this book, am I annoyed that I can't carry a seemingly important rulebook? Yes, I am. But quite frankly trying to work out why GW makes the decisions it does would drive me insane in a matter of minutes. I've never known a company to make such short-sighted and honestly just absurd "business" decisions, so I just don't sweat it. GW as a wholesaler is actually really great to work with. Their discount is only 45%, but they have no minimum order, they always cover the cost of shipping, they accept returns of obsolete products, and the last few reps I've had have been knowledgeable, friendly, and helpful, no matter the circumstances. So, why worry about the lunatics who manage the company? They're not putting anyone out of business but themselves.
BarBoBot wrote: I should be shocked that someone thinks stores should sell things at a loss and still stay in business, but somehow I'm not surprised.
Dark Vengeance is sold at a loss...
Explain your theory on that one.
Only thing I can think of is that the multi-part kit versions of the plastic snap-fits in the box sell for more money individually. So it's a "loss" because it isn't quite as overvalued as their other ridiculously-overvalued products I suppose?
DV is one of their more profitable items. It sells like hot cakes, sure for only four years, but it is still way more then the production and development costs of the whole boxed set. If you think that only a few Dark Angel and Chaos Space Marines players are interested then your ignoring the secondary market completely, just about every 40k player wants that little rules booklet, so some of us buy a lot more then one DV boxed set and sell off the rest they don't use. The same think happened with the Assault on Black Reach starter, bought between 50-100 in four years and sold off the stuff I didn't need/want. It makes a lot of folks very happy, cheap Cultists or Chosen for those established CSM players, cheap Terminators or Tactical Squads for those new DA players that are just starting. And cheap rulebooks for those folks playing other armies...
DV is one of their more profitable items. It sells like hot cakes, sure for only four years, but it is still way more then the production and development costs of the whole boxed set. If you think that only a few Dark Angel and Chaos Space Marines players are interested then your ignoring the secondary market completely, just about every 40k player wants that little rules booklet, so some of us buy a lot more then one DV boxed set and sell off the rest they don't use. The same think happened with the Assault on Black Reach starter, bought between 50-100 in four years and sold off the stuff I didn't need/want. It makes a lot of folks very happy, cheap Cultists or Chosen for those established CSM players, cheap Terminators or Tactical Squads for those new DA players that are just starting. And cheap rulebooks for those folks playing other armies...
QFT. Everyone wants that little book. And the second hand market for the models inside is astonishing.
I do think it's worth listening to mikhaila on this one. Just check through his past posts. Almost every time GW's relationship with retailers has come up, in the past few years, he's been there, backing them up, saying that they're good to work with as long as you treat them fairly and respectfully, and sell through plenty of their stock. They gave him prize support for tourneys, etc., and he was generally extremely happy with the way they handled everything.
Think what it must have taken to turn his views around. This really is getting close to the last straw, for a lot of shops.
Also, think how little GW really value independent retailers, if they're prepared to lie outright to one of their most staunch supporters, who also does a huge amount of business with them.
This "Fortress Wall" thing around GW.... it's starting to look like a prison, or an insane asylum.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I agree, I was going to buy a Stormraven. But now im not because my store banned it for me now apprently.
Maybe as a protest i will get all the people from my store to buy it, then bring it in. I dont get how this is a "Screw You" to GW, its a screw you to customers who would otherwise be willing to spend there money there.
Regular rules still apply. If it is in your codex it is still ok.
Maybe as a protest i will get all the people from my store to buy it, then bring it in. I dont get how this is a "Screw You" to GW, its a screw you to customers who would otherwise be willing to spend there money there.
I said that early on in this thread, the retailers banning the book are just punishing their customers and driving them elsewhere. If customers buy hundreds of dollars worth of models (e.g., $82.50 Stormravens) at your store are you going to stop them from using them because you've banned the $33 rule book you couldn't sell? You're not punishing GW, you are punishing your customers and driving them to other businesses. Not really a well thought out move at all.
For those who missed my short-lived thread, here is the response from my local game store and I agree with them and support them.
"As a retail store, we take this is an attempt by Games Workshop to test the waters as to whether or not this is a reasonable way to market their products. It is our intention to make the waters hot and say in no uncertain terms that we do not approve of them cutting out stores. We value our partnership with GW, but this move is not in any way beneficial to the community or the stores which promote and sell their products.
To that end, we are banning use of Death from the Skies in any official format. Rules for flyers presented in White Dwarf are still allowed, but any new rules, including changes to point values, will not be respected or allowed in tournaments or any other event sponsored by Gryphon. We will continue to stand firm on this until GW reverses their decision as to making Death from the Skies a web exclusive.
We understand that this decision will hurt sales. We will sell fewer flyers and we will undoubtedly have fewer people attend our events. However, we need to make a stand and let GW know that we consider this decision to be irresponsible and unacceptable in our business relationship. Our industry is difficult enough without manufacturers deciding on methods to cut us out of the industry.
We will be contacting local stores and encouraging them to also take a stand.
If you enjoy having a store to play games, meet new friends and enjoy your hobby, I encourage you to take to the message boards. Discuss what we're doing. Discuss what GW is doing. Ask them to allow you to buy from your local store.
As always, we appreciate your business. We would also appreciate your understanding regarding our decision."
I would hope people could see how it hurts their business to have GW cut them out of the loop. Running a small business is a struggle without these kind of headaches.
To me this just smacks of "Spoiled brat Syndrome" in which, because they cant get it, neither can you. How exactly is this "Taking a stand" againts GW, they are not loosing revenue from this, its direct only remember? its like banning sushi from your store, because you can sell it, but you dont have thee kitchen to make it.
I think the fact that so many stores backed out to show how poorly planned and thought out this was.
hotsauceman1 wrote: To me this just smacks of "Spoiled brat Syndrome" in which, because they cant get it, neither can you. How exactly is this "Taking a stand" againts GW, they are not loosing revenue from this, its direct only remember? its like banning sushi from your store, because you can't even order it.
I think the fact that so many stores backed out to show how poorly planned and thought out this was.
rich1231 wrote: Most industries tend to have bodies that gather together to represent their collective interests. Do Hobby stores in the US have any such group?
hotsauceman1 wrote: If you mean Lobbies or Unions? No, Hobby stores are small businesses with not connection to one another.
Not exactly correct. Some business types, even small ones, have trade associations that help promote the business type as a whole and there is such a thing for hobby stores as a matter of fact. One would think more Internet forum users could also use Google.
NRHSA is a national organization which serves to unite hobby retailers to present one voice, one consistent message to the rest of the trade. You are the front line in the distribution chain, working directly with the consumer who pays our bills. You know what the consumer needs and you know what you need to best serve them. Your experiences should dictate what new products to develop, what information and training materials are needed, and what kind of advertising should be done to grow the market. The NRHSA organization is the tool for you to use to get that message across, loud and clear.
However, the best reason for joining NRHSA is because it unites your voice with that of hundreds of other top retailers across the country to provide one clear message to the rest of the trade. This is the power that won't be ignored. And when used effectively, manufacturers, distributors, and publishers will be influenced to provide you with just the products and services you need to please consumers and grow the market.
So, join today! The more members in NRHSA, the more power and influence retailers will have in our industry. Who better to have it than those who work most closely with the ultimate consumer?
Member Benefits Board of Directors Who we are Mission Statement Goals of the Organization
About The Professional Game Store Association is dedicated to promoting and strengthening the business of Hobby Game Retail Stores by partnering with manufacturers, publishers and distributors and taking a leadership role in support of the hobby game industry.
Mission The Professional Game Store Association (PGSA) is created with the mission to promote and strengthen the business of Hobby Game Retail Stores by partnering with manufacturers, publishers and distributors and taking a leadership role in support of the hobby game industry.
hotsauceman1 wrote: To me this just smacks of "Spoiled brat Syndrome" in which, because they cant get it, neither can you. How exactly is this "Taking a stand" againts GW, they are not loosing revenue from this, its direct only remember? its like banning sushi from your store, because you can sell it, but you dont have thee kitchen to make it.
I think the fact that so many stores backed out to show how poorly planned and thought out this was.
That's ridiculous. A stand must be made. Imagine Ford Motors telling a used car dealership that the new model car could not be sold at their dealership.
The fact is that big, multi-national corporations like Microsoft, Walmart, BP, Monsanto, and yes, Games Workshop, always try to control the market and eliminate competition through the use of strong-arm tactics. If I want corn, I am not forced into going to the farmer. That is not how a free market economy works. Limiting product access is just another tactic by which GW is trying to control the hobby. They have a group of marketing and advertising experts sitting around plotting how to narrow the margin of loss and increase profits. The problem is these tactics are not cooperative efforts that benefit all. They are harmful practices that hurt the community while GW profits. If allowed to succeed, we will see a ban on retail sales altogether. Online retailers are already being hurt by gw's online policies. Soon there will be no game store that isn't GW.
GW has made it pretty clear actually that their plan is to get people into the hobby via GW and shuffle them to FLGS where play is better.
The reason GW is cracking down on online retailers is simple, they hurt the hobby aswell.
Remember, many people said the Online retailers are hurting Stores by preventing sales.
hotsauceman1 wrote: GW has made it pretty clear actually that their plan is to get people into the hobby via GW and shuffle them to FLGS where play is better.
So then why are they making a product aimed at experienced players online-only? DftS isn't for new players buying their first battleforce, by the time you're looking at flyer models/special expansion rules/etc you're at the point where you're supposedly "shuffled off to the FLGS". If what you're claiming is really true DftS would only be available through independent retailers, not from GW directly.
The real situation is that GW doesn't want FLGS to exist at all and only tolerates them because they can't get rid of them completely outside the UK.
The reason GW is cracking down on online retailers is simple, they hurt the hobby aswell.
Yeah, I'm sure it's idealism and defending the hobby rather than maximizing sales through their own (full retail price) online store...
While this worked pretty well for GW in the UK they have no chance of doing anything like that in the US any time soon. GW not only does not have a store in every town in the US, they don't even have stores in every major city. The geography in the US is just too big and the populace too spread out for GW to feel they can open a store everywhere as they did in the UK and the fact is that most US customers buy from third party retailers, not directly from GW. If they killed all the third party stores in the US that sell their product their efforts to "conquer" the US the way they did the UK by making Warhammer more mainstream would be lost forever.
GW has been struggling with the US market for years. Its potential is massive, yet US sales overall continue to lag behind those in their much smaller home country. GW just doesn't seem to be able to figure it out even after nearly three decades in the US marketplace. For example, they still don't seem to realize that in a place as big as the US a lot of people aren't even aware that GW stores exist, yet they do very little to nothing to advertise and raise awareness of their shops. They still think word of mouth will work in the US the way it does in the UK and it just has not.
The point of a business is to make money, but if they feel that strongly about it they'd be willing to "take one for the team" so to speak. I see a lot of huffing and puffing, but not of these retailers are cutting back on their orders, dropping GW, or doing anything that would cause GW any concern. They're not willing to break even on the GW for WM trade, they even insist on a profit on that. They won't even do a break-even trade, which, if you though GW was so evil, you would do
It's like all the people that huff and puff about politics, but can't take the time to vote, or even to make time (money) for it.
If they can't take the pain of a small loss in the short-term (which could be argued is a loss leader anyway) to make more money in the long run, or just to send a message, then what good are these complaints.
Uhh... Seems like you have a lot of wilful ignorance.
Many stores are offering discounts on Hordes, and Warmachine starter sets if you bring in a current edition GW rule book.
Consider a business that makes its bills every month because it sells GW products. Now consider everyone who would spend money on the new GW stuff going to GW's site instead. Now this store can't pay bills and goes out of business.
They should drop the product that's been keeping them afloat and go out of business sooner just to make a point?
You obviously don't have kids to feed or understand how to run a business. Talk about "huff and puff."
I haven't read the whole thread but this all seems pretty stupid to me. FLGS have been undercutting GW for years so it was only a matter of time before GW started doing direct only items. They started with models and have now progressed to books. Added to this is the weird little concept of people playing games in stores. I'm sure it's great for some but in 27 years of gaming I've never felt the desire to play a game in a shop. In these troublesome times of internets and dying high street stores (see HMV in the UK) I don't give a damn about petty shops refusing to recognise a book from a company that regularly gets slagged off. I mean, it's not like everything Forgeworld make isn't direct order only. Just look at the Abbaddon v Loken model and ask yourself "does anyone give a frag about flyers in the face of the Horus Heresy models?".
Bloodwin wrote: I mean, it's not like everything Forgeworld make isn't direct order only.
Except that FW stuff is direct-only because it's a niche market product with low sales volume and no practical way of getting it into every retail store. DftS, on the other hand, is a critical book for multiple armies and there is nothing preventing GW from making it available to independent retailers.
As for the rest, the US market is not the UK market.
hotsauceman1 wrote: GW has made it pretty clear actually that their plan is to get people into the hobby via GW and shuffle them to FLGS where play is better.
The reason GW is cracking down on online retailers is simple, they hurt the hobby aswell.
Remember, many people said the Online retailers are hurting Stores by preventing sales.
An online retailer doesn't hurt sales on items that are available for purchase in a store. Our economy is driven by freedom of choice. I am impatient so I will go to a store to make a purchase rather than wait, but online retailers offer OOP models and bits I can't get anywhere else, so I am supporting both causes.
A manufacturer trying to control who can and who can't sell a product hurts the entire industry and is really a poor decision on their part. How much promotion of the new products are they losing? GW should realise how much advertising the small guys do to promote GW products. A move like this is a shot in the foot.
Bloodwin wrote: I mean, it's not like everything Forgeworld make isn't direct order only.
Except that FW stuff is direct-only because it's a niche market product with low sales volume and no practical way of getting it into every retail store. DftS, on the other hand, is a critical book for multiple armies and there is nothing preventing GW from making it available to independent retailers.
As for the rest, the US market is not the UK market.
Also asking retailers to pay $600.00 for an item that "might" sell is too much to ask.
Bloodwin wrote:I haven't read the whole thread but this all seems pretty stupid to me. FLGS have been undercutting GW for years so it was only a matter of time before GW started doing direct only items. They started with models and have now progressed to books. Added to this is the weird little concept of people playing games in stores. I'm sure it's great for some but in 27 years of gaming I've never felt the desire to play a game in a shop. In these troublesome times of internets and dying high street stores (see HMV in the UK) I don't give a damn about petty shops refusing to recognise a book from a company that regularly gets slagged off. I mean, it's not like everything Forgeworld make isn't direct order only. Just look at the Abbaddon v Loken model and ask yourself "does anyone give a frag about flyers in the face of the Horus Heresy models?".
How do FLGS stores undercut GW? Is it because they offer a 5, 10, 15, or up to 25% discount off of GW products? You do realize that GW makes their money off of the distributor's price when the FLGS buys product from their GW sales rep right? GW stands to make MORE off of their webstore and with GW direct items. A 37.25 tactical squad from your FLGS will give what... 19 USD to GW? If you buy that same tactical squad off of GW's website, guess how much they get 37.25, so they have incentive to cut out the flgs, and no matter what an FLGS tries, they'll never be able to undercut the supplier of their product.
That's ridiculous. A stand must be made. Imagine Ford Motors telling a used car dealership that the new model car could not be sold at their dealership.
The fact is that big, multi-national corporations like Microsoft, Walmart, BP, Monsanto, and yes, Games Workshop, always try to control the market and eliminate competition through the use of strong-arm tactics. If I want corn, I am not forced into going to the farmer. That is not how a free market economy works. Limiting product access is just another tactic by which GW is trying to control the hobby. They have a group of marketing and advertising experts sitting around plotting how to narrow the margin of loss and increase profits. The problem is these tactics are not cooperative efforts that benefit all. They are harmful practices that hurt the community while GW profits. If allowed to succeed, we will see a ban on retail sales altogether. Online retailers are already being hurt by gw's online policies. Soon there will be no game store that isn't GW.
That's their plan don't you think otherwise.
Huh, Imagine if Ford and GM and Chrysler all reached out into the US market and CLOSED, uhm, like 1000 dealerships. Oh, wait. They did.
I agree that game stores should funnel their outrage at GW, but not by banning the book. Because all you really did was make guys who got the book not able to use. Sorry Mr. Ultramarine player, you can't play with spiffy new Stormraven I sold you. Turn that frown upside down though, you can still pay me to play in my tournament here. And yes, Mr. Ork player, you can use your flyer if you have the White Dwarf rules, but I am not going to rewrite anything in your FAQ, so come play in my tournament, and I'll pick and choose what I'm going to ignore in the rules as we go along, and don't be unpleasant during the competition when I'm trying to figure out which way I'm going to rule.
My local store was a little miffed that it didn't get offered for him to sell, but by punishing your customers you're targeting the wrong audience. That would be like saying that because I bought my copy of Mantic's Dreadball through the kickstarter that I can't bring it to his store. Because I took money out of his pocket by doing that. Huh, just the opposite. I took it in and it drummed up interest and he's getting an account with Mantic to sell games to customers.
Anyway, I hope they copies of all those old FAQs, otherwise its going to be fun times playing a tournament in those stores.
I happen to agree with some of the stores not allowing it in their facilities ..... IT IS THIER STORE. They can do as they wish.
GW has a mindset for stuff that works in the UK and think that perhaps the same will work in the US. That is more queer than a football bat. Look at the differences in the countries. Our cops have guns, their cops have nightsticks ( or whatever they call them); they have Rally car racing, we got NASCAR (FOR REAL?!? GO FAST TURN LEFT????); they have mass tranist everyhwere, we have mass carbon monoxide problems (Look at a Los Angeles night sky to see what I mean).
Most people that I know that play are actually quite displeased with GW for doing this. My personal take on why this is so, is because the FLGS I play at is NOT a GW store. There is not one of those within 100 miles of us. The guy who runs the place has built like 12 tables for us to play on. All of them were out of pocket for him. To do something like this is fairly poor of GW in my eyes.
When I first got into the hobby and started visiting the boards people were always going nuts about GW doing this or GW doing that. I would write most of that off, but this one ... I happen to agree with the disgruntled mass that have the nerve to say something about how they feel. I put myself in their shoes and found them uncomfortable.
Then again .... I am also a Union Ironworker that has ZERO qualms with MFing someone who has it coming .... perk of the job. Rant over.
hotsauceman1 wrote: To me this just smacks of "Spoiled brat Syndrome" in which, because they cant get it, neither can you. How exactly is this "Taking a stand" againts GW, they are not loosing revenue from this, its direct only remember? its like banning sushi from your store, because you can sell it, but you dont have thee kitchen to make it.
I think the fact that so many stores backed out to show how poorly planned and thought out this was.
I'm sorry that this is a simple inconvience to you as a gamer but the it's a matter of protecting the livelihood of the store owners that are affected by this. With that in mind, who is the "spoiled brat" in that situation? This is likely the first step of many in cutting out the store from necessary products to play the game with existing models and is IMO a totally justified stand for stores to take in regards to official events. GW was the first gaming company (I believe they beat TSR/WOTC to the punch IIRC) to cut out the distributor from most of their dealings to save 5-10% and the stores are the next logical hurdle in GW's mind between them and the consumer.
While I wouldn't support a store in stopping casual players who came for a pickup game from using the rules, I would say making a store rule that keeps the older rules as completely legal in all games including casual is reasonable as is not allowing the new rules in tournies and other official events (with the proper notice of course in the posted tourney rules). As for sushi, plenty of stores do ban outside food if they sell food inside. Continuing your rather ridiculous analogy, do you think McDonalds would be ok if you sat down with a Papa John's pizza in their restaurant just because they dont' sell pizza?
I don't really see how stores banning DftS in tournaments is more offensive than banning FW books in tournaments, aside from the fact that FW models are much more rare than stormtalons or dakkajets.
hotsauceman1 wrote: To me this just smacks of "Spoiled brat Syndrome" in which, because they cant get it, neither can you. How exactly is this "Taking a stand" againts GW, they are not loosing revenue from this, its direct only remember? its like banning sushi from your store, because you can sell it, but you dont have thee kitchen to make it.
I think the fact that so many stores backed out to show how poorly planned and thought out this was.
I'm sorry that this is a simple inconvience to you as a gamer but the it's a matter of protecting the livelihood of the store owners that are affected by this. With that in mind, who is the "spoiled brat" in that situation? This is likely the first step of many in cutting out the store from necessary products to play the game with existing models and is IMO a totally justified stand for stores to take in regards to official events. GW was the first gaming company (I believe they beat TSR/WOTC to the punch IIRC) to cut out the distributor from most of their dealings to save 5-10% and the stores are the next logical hurdle in GW's mind between them and the consumer.
While I wouldn't support a store in stopping casual players who came for a pickup game from using the rules, I would say making a store rule that keeps the older rules as completely legal in all games including casual is reasonable as is not allowing the new rules in tournies and other official events (with the proper notice of course in the posted tourney rules). As for sushi, plenty of stores do ban outside food if they sell food inside. Continuing your rather ridiculous analogy, do you think McDonalds would be ok if you sat down with a Papa John's pizza in their restaurant just because they dont' sell pizza?
Actually, many resturants allow you to come in with other food aslong as either you, or someone else in your party buys something from them.
This is just them being upset because they dont get so sell something, its like the stores that ban KS products because someone else got it from them before.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Actually, many resturants allow you to come in with other food aslong as either you, or someone else in your party buys something from them.
This is just them being upset because they dont get so sell something, its like the stores that ban KS products because someone else got it from them before.
You and I must not visit the same restaurants.
And did it cross your mind that perhaps these stores are defending their livelyhood? Being upset about one direct only sales item may prevent them from cutting them out of the GW sales strategy entirely.
I've corrected them in the quote if you haven't already sent the email 
) said book is not able to be purchased by independents and can olny be bought from the 
) Third edition came out
Like when video game publishers blame piracy for poor sales, ignoring the fact the game stinks, so the next game they release has more DRM which makes it even less appealing to buy because it has install limits and requires you to be always online.
retailers, and you're going to sit there and say everything is fine and that we should shut up about it? Good job, pal, you're part of the problem.
