I use two of them on a regular basis, and those dudes are SOLID for 14-point grunts. With V:Courage armywide, the whole JSA grunt lineup suddenly looks pretty darned stellar.
That's cool that the Tokusetsu are AVA 2, have the existing miniature but like the new one and that gives an excuse to field 2. Like said they are pretty solid for the points.
PsychoticStorm wrote: So them going out and buying child slaves to save them from their grim fate is a bad thing?
It's the continuation that is rather disturbing. I'm certain parents would be delighted to hear their child is safe, however the background makes no reference of the established protocol. I'm also rather touchy when it comes to enforcing your own will over another, especially on a more vulnerable person.
I don't know.. if I was a slave child and someone kidnapped me, I'd be really happy if I was then trained into a bad-ass and then given Janissary heavy armour and weapons
Pacific wrote: That's cool that the Tokusetsu are AVA 2, have the existing miniature but like the new one and that gives an excuse to field 2. Like said they are pretty solid for the points.
PsychoticStorm wrote: So them going out and buying child slaves to save them from their grim fate is a bad thing?
It's the continuation that is rather disturbing. I'm certain parents would be delighted to hear their child is safe, however the background makes no reference of the established protocol. I'm also rather touchy when it comes to enforcing your own will over another, especially on a more vulnerable person.
I don't know.. if I was a slave child and someone kidnapped me, I'd be really happy if I was then trained into a bad-ass and then given Janissary heavy armour and weapons
Precisely. I don't expect for a child to need much encouragement, should his new owner simply hinted of a possibility to play a romanticised role of a hero, a chance to get even, be celebrated hero among our/your new people. Doesn't feel right to me, seems exploiting and very opportunistic. I can't see Haqqislam playing the role of a rescuer in this situation, they play a role of a buyer. They don't go in, asses and shut down the slave/human trafficking, they purchase and they let those people go to continue their operations.
Yes it finally happened! London-based Modiphius Entertainment has announced a licensing deal with Corvus Belli to create a line of roleplaying games based on INFINITY, their top-selling miniatures skirmish game.
Huh. Could be cool. If you can find the right group to get to play it and all. But I guess that's all RPGs. I wonder if the new Modiphius RPG books will have a bunch of new artwork and fluff, or if it will be mostly rehashed from what we know? May be worth buying for additional fluff and new art, even if one wasn't going to play.
Of course depending on how the rules work, it *could* be really fun to play a diverse group of infinity personalities taking facilities and blowing up enemy tags
Would be interesting to know how they want to handle people playing various factions, does the whole party have to be Pan-O or Haqq, for instance?
Infinity, The Roleplaying Game: Adventures in the Human Sphere and Beyond will then be available in retail in the Summer through our usual distributors as a full colour hardcover, with an estimated retail price of £34.99 - £39.99 depending on final page count.
We will be running a Kickstarter in Summer 2015 to further expand the range - campaigns, supplements, custom dice, new 'RPG miniatures' by Corvus Belli, geomorphic floorplan tiles, poster maps and more.
My emphasis, so what's that around 50 bucks? Seems about what they want for a D&D book nowadays isn't it? And 'new RPG minaitures' could be very neat!
I guess there's a preorder leading up to a kickstarter. I shall have to investigate both further!
GrimDork wrote: Would be interesting to know how they want to handle people playing various factions, does the whole party have to be Pan-O or Haqq, for instance?
My guess would be that for campaigns where players couldn't agree on the same faction, the emphasis will be on allowing mercenary teams, or teams of O12 operatives hand picked (or on loan from) the various factions in the game. Pretty much the same angle as player characters in the Mutant Chronicles RPG.. just substitute "mercenary" for "freelancer" and "O12" for "The Cartel"
Too cool. Like others have said, I might have to pick this up just for the fluff and art. Can't imagine I'll be able to find a group to play with, but it'd still be worth it for all the worldbuilding tidbits.
I have little experience with pen and paper rps but wouldn't mind trying to get together a gmt time zone or close to it online dakka group to play if possible.
And I just blew my RPG budget on the new 5e D&D books... Ah, but I have a few months to save up. Cool. I haven't played a Sci-FI RPG in decades. Plus new (character) minis? Yes!
We really don't need O-12 to force the factions to work together. There are plenty of fluffy justifications for every faction to work with one another. Perhaps only the Combined Army is the only uncooperative one, here. Hell, even the Aleph/Nomads Dire Foes box is about operatives from each cooperating with one another, and those factions are pretty much the most diametrically opposed non-CA groups in the entire Human Sphere.
More SpecOps-style 'character' models is a great opportunity to fill in the gap until Acheron Falls releases more stuff.
---
However, I'm a little disappointed that the game system will be using Modiphius's 2d20 system instead of Infinity's innate game system. Nothing wrong with Modiphius's system, but it'll just feel like a general RPG system with an Infinity coat of fluff-paint.
The existence of floor tiles being available makes me think this will be yet another RPG system.
Infinity was originally created with RPG rules in mind and eventually turned into the wargame we have today. The rules are very well-suited for RPG play. Just give us more detailed rules for conversations/hacking(systems)/bartering and maybe even rules for vehicles. Oh, and stuff to buy and loot tables.
So HI gets to 'tank', hacker is the rogue (especially hacker from a stealth-based unit), everyone else is probably DPS, even have doctors and engineers to patch people (and their armor) up between missions I guess hackers and engineers share part of the classical 'rogue' jobs.
I'm going to spend far, far too much on that kickstarter. I better start saving.
carlos13th wrote: I have little experience with pen and paper rps but wouldn't mind trying to get together a gmt time zone or close to it online dakka group to play if possible.
Can we make this happen? Even as a one off with an international group. I would be all over that, I have no experience but it something I've always wanted to try.
GrimDork wrote: So HI gets to 'tank', hacker is the rogue (especially hacker from a stealth-based unit), everyone else is probably DPS, even have doctors and engineers to patch people (and their armor) up between missions I guess hackers and engineers share part of the classical 'rogue' jobs.
I can see it now. "Our raid was going so well until the blasted healer decided to shoot the tank in the back of the head"
Hmm. I remember when Rackham released their Cadwallon RPG and started releasing RPG minis that could go into Confrontation's 'Cadwallon' army. The figures were amazing (and so much more characterful than your standard army guys), but it did draw Rackham a lot of flack from people who thought they were drawing too many resources away from making miniatures for the 'real' armies (I wasn't one of them, but then I did have the RPG and did have a Cadwallon Confrontation army).
So I predict amazing minis that serve dual purpose in the RPG and Infinity (hopefully), and complaints from at least one person about release schedules...
After mulling this over for a while, I'm starting to warm up to the idea. Depending on what they do through kickstarter, it might be the first one I actually pledge to. I'm a sucker for limited edition miniatures. And if there's Haqqislam stuff in there I'd never forgive myself.
I always thought the Campaign system from Campaign Paradiso was meant to be more RPG-like. I'm sort of surprised that there wasn't already an RPG for Infinity though.
Basing this on what they did with Mutant Chronicles, I imagine that a lot of the minis are going to be modified versions of existing figures/designs. For Mutant Chronicles, a lot of the figures were basically character versions of existing troop types. Kind of like what they did with Dire Foes, expect that I'd expect to see more helmet-less figures.
Riquende wrote: Hmm. I remember when Rackham released their Cadwallon RPG and started releasing RPG minis that could go into Confrontation's 'Cadwallon' army. The figures were amazing (and so much more characterful than your standard army guys), but it did draw Rackham a lot of flack from people who thought they were drawing too many resources away from making miniatures for the 'real' armies (I wasn't one of them, but then I did have the RPG and did have a Cadwallon Confrontation army).
So I predict amazing minis that serve dual purpose in the RPG and Infinity (hopefully), and complaints from at least one person about release schedules...
i loved the Cadwallon minis, especially the ones that got released in resin for the Legends line, just before Rackham went down...
the RPG book was beautiful, too...
i'm glad i got them, even though i don't play anything...
same with FFG's beautiful 40KRPG books...
if this new Infinity stuff is as good as the FFG stuff, i'll be very happy...
if it is as good as the Cadwallon book, i will be blown away...
since i've already been collecting Infinity minis from day one, anything new and exciting is always a plus...
some more minis with tons of character, like the Spec Ops, Dire Foes, and Bootleg minis would make me very happy...
looking forward to seeing what the future brings...
Barzam wrote: Basing this on what they did with Mutant Chronicles, I imagine that a lot of the minis are going to be modified versions of existing figures/designs. For Mutant Chronicles, a lot of the figures were basically character versions of existing troop types. Kind of like what they did with Dire Foes, expect that I'd expect to see more helmet-less figures.
It's hard guessing what CB will do with their miniatures for it when you're basing the assumptions on what nother company did with their models.
Modiphius won't (as far as I know) have anything to do with the miniatures. CB have proved thus far they can to really great character sculpts, and RPG characters should be treated the same way. They've said recently they make the 'grunts' a bit more boring than the more elite units. In this situation, I doubt they'd only put the 'grunt effort' in on their individual character peices for the RPG.
I'm going to spend far, far too much on that kickstarter. I better start saving.
carlos13th wrote: I have little experience with pen and paper rps but wouldn't mind trying to get together a gmt time zone or close to it online dakka group to play if possible.
Can we make this happen? Even as a one off with an international group. I would be all over that, I have no experience but it something I've always wanted to try.
I did it before brielfy using a combination of roll 20 and Skype. It can be pretty time consuming especially when learning a system so a few sessions at least would probably be needed. We would need at least one DM I imagine. I would have no problem with anyone international joining in the only reason I said gmt or close is because organising people in one time zone is like herding cats it's even more difficult to find someone avalable in a different one.
Should probably move further discussion about arranging this to the infinity sub rpg section as to not clog up the news thread.
A SciFi RPG set in the bright and well lit future of Infinity? Sign me up!
I just hope they don't go the route PP did with their Iron Kingdoms relaunch and basically reskin the miniatures game. I'd love for the rpg to be able to stand on its own.
Basing this on what they did with Mutant Chronicles, I imagine that a lot of the minis are going to be modified versions of existing figures/designs. For Mutant Chronicles, a lot of the figures were basically character versions of existing troop types. Kind of like what they did with Dire Foes, expect that I'd expect to see more helmet-less figures.
CB have already made one of their own RPG characters in the game - Bran Do Castro. I'm not sure if some of the other Nomad character units are from their RPG as well. If they are going to make minis for the RPG i'd have thought they would be more like the spec ops blisters with some options to customise the models so they can be tailored to people's characters.
CB have already made one of their own RPG characters in the game - Bran Do Castro. I'm not sure if some of the other Nomad character units are from their RPG as well. If they are going to make minis for the RPG i'd have thought they would be more like the spec ops blisters with some options to customise the models so they can be tailored to people's characters.
I heard that Van Zaant was based on an RPG character too.
Guildsman wrote: See, I always thought Van Zant was based on Matthew McConaughey's character from Reign of Fire, the crazy dragon slayer with a fire axe.
That's very likely since the character's even called Van Zan!
Basing this on what they did with Mutant Chronicles, I imagine that a lot of the minis are going to be modified versions of existing figures/designs. For Mutant Chronicles, a lot of the figures were basically character versions of existing troop types. Kind of like what they did with Dire Foes, expect that I'd expect to see more helmet-less figures.
CB have already made one of their own RPG characters in the game - Bran Do Castro. I'm not sure if some of the other Nomad character units are from their RPG as well. If they are going to make minis for the RPG i'd have thought they would be more like the spec ops blisters with some options to customise the models so they can be tailored to people's characters.
Sun Wukong, The Monkey King, Great Sage and Equal of Heaven wants to have a few words with you.
Riquende wrote: Hmm. I remember when Rackham released their Cadwallon RPG and started releasing RPG minis that could go into Confrontation's 'Cadwallon' army. The figures were amazing (and so much more characterful than your standard army guys), but it did draw Rackham a lot of flack from people who thought they were drawing too many resources away from making miniatures for the 'real' armies (I wasn't one of them, but then I did have the RPG and did have a Cadwallon Confrontation army).
So I predict amazing minis that serve dual purpose in the RPG and Infinity (hopefully), and complaints from at least one person about release schedules...
The comparison to Confrontation seems apt.
I loved the depth of Confrontation's world of Aarklash, and "Cadwallon" just made the world even deeper and richer. I think this RPG will do the same for Infinity; expand our knowledge beyond the warzones, into areas that explain why people fight; to protect their homes, expand their empires, gather resources or even as commerce by another name. Or even learn about the people who don't fight.
Without bashing 40k's setting (which I will always have a soft spot for), I like that in Infinity's universe, it isn't just "There is only War". I hope to see more minis in the future like reporters, executives and other non-combatants because it opens up more possibilities for gaming scenarios.
Mastiff, you will like N3 then. It has been strongly hinted that new Missions will require civilian or VIP models (like the ones included in the Dire Foes boxes) as objectives.
I managed to pick up a CSU model for just this purpose
Apparently it was announced on Mayacast that November's releases are being scaled down to just two:
The new Combined Army box and Kasym Beg for Haqqislam.
That means that there will NOT be the following three releases which were slated for November as well:
-Alguaciles box(Special weapons)
-Hac Tao Hacker blister(Yu Jing)
-Teucer, Agema Warrant Officer blister(ALEPH)
Their usual release is usually five to six items(one to two boxes and the remainder blisters), so I'm not quite sure how a release of "at least six things" is them "making up for it"...
If O:I has eaten all their resources, it's just logic that they have to catch up with the normal workload that has been delayed. The EC Starter and Kasym Beg are probably casted and in packing process, they might be already casting newer stuff, but if they want to get control back on their scheduling they need to play safe.
Kanluwen wrote: Eventually they are not going to be able to lay the blame on Icestorm.
As of this point in time, they SHOULD have recovered from the issues of Icestorm.
I don't think Operation: Icestorm is the only thing keeping them reeling. They are having a huge surge in players, without a doubt having to devote more time to produce additional runs of previous released merchandise to supply that demand could be eating up time as well. Not to mention making sure all the Caskuda are in line to be squashed , and that everything is prepped for the production and distribution on N3 with the Bounty Hunter. After the Icestorm surge they are probably anticipating a massive increase with N3, and they NEED to capitalize on it in a big way to show new converts that they are capable of meeting demand.
Absolutionis wrote:This is the first time we've gotten such a reduced release.
Nope, some releases were already delayed a month or two ago. :(
Kanluwen wrote:Eventually they are not going to be able to lay the blame on Icestorm.
As of this point in time, they SHOULD have recovered from the issues of Icestorm.
CB lost something like an entire month of normal production time to the Icestorm pre-order. Icestorm was the equivalent of roughly 17,000 starter packs and 25,000 single model blisters (CSU, Reverend Healer, Father-Knight) which means the rest of the range has been running low throughout the supply chain.
That's not something a production schedule magically recovers from in a few weeks, even if general Infinity sales were static instead of seeing a boost from Icestorm, N3 and another BoW Infinity Week.
Its better to have available what is already released than bring out new stuff in my opinion. If new players cant get hold of stuff that is already out they are going to be disgruntled, more so than if future releases are delayed.
carlos13th wrote: Its better to have available what is already released than bring out new stuff in my opinion. If new players cant get hold of stuff that is already out they are going to be disgruntled, more so than if future releases are delayed.
Do you really think that there are so many players that models are always out of stock?
I think O:I took everyone by surprise. One of the staff from Wayland Games said on here that the numbers it was doing were only comparable to major 40K releases, and the manager of Firestorm Games said similar when I was discussing it with him last week.
Now if you are a small company, who have never done a comparable major release for your game, and due to the nature of previous releases/it being a Skirmish game where players only need a small force, how can you predict numbers like that, and, even if you've got a hope, how much can you gamble on that? If O:I took a month of production time, can they really gamble another one, when getting it wrong could be a disaster?
carlos13th wrote: No I dont and I never said that. But fulfilling current orders is more important than bringing out new stuff.
It sure is--but you know what else is "more important than bringing out new stuff"?
Recognizing you messed up. Releasing Icestorm like they did was a huge mistake . They insisted upon continually mentioning that it was a limited run item.
And then they were surprised by the overpurchasing?
Not to mention that in addition there were likely veteran players(read: not the intended target for a starter set) buying the boxes to split up and sell the components, get updated sculpts, or just buying the box for the "quick start rules" and selling the models on.
Dark Vengeance wasn't a limited edition item though, now was it?
If you want to make a proper comparison, then you talk Stormclaw.
Stormclaw was not solely bought by new players though. The price point combined with the items included ended up with Stormclaw being a pretty good seller. I saw at least two individuals walk out with four boxes or more of Stormclaw, with the intention of selling the extra mini rulebooks to cover part of the costs.
carlos13th wrote: No I dont and I never said that. But fulfilling current orders is more important than bringing out new stuff.
It sure is--but you know what else is "more important than bringing out new stuff"?
Recognizing you messed up. Releasing Icestorm like they did was a huge mistake . They insisted upon continually mentioning that it was a limited run item.
And then they were surprised by the overpurchasing?
Not to mention that in addition there were likely veteran players(read: not the intended target for a starter set) buying the boxes to split up and sell the components, get updated sculpts, or just buying the box for the "quick start rules" and selling the models on.
Dark Vengeance wasn't a limited edition item though, now was it?
If you want to make a proper comparison, then you talk Stormclaw.
Stormclaw was not solely bought by new players though. The price point combined with the items included ended up with Stormclaw being a pretty good seller. I saw at least two individuals walk out with four boxes or more of Stormclaw, with the intention of selling the extra mini rulebooks to cover part of the costs.
They never said it was LIMITED, just that it was 5000 sets made and they should last for a year, and if they sold well in that time they will look at a second run. People like you just heard "we printed 5000 copy" and keep saying it a limit ed every chances the got. Dispite me and other pointing out it was never said to be limited to only 5000 copies ever, just that they only made 5000 copies, as it was a hugh risk. It turning out instead a sure fire hit, doesn't mean O:IS wasn't a risk to they lively hood. It nice you like to think you known about CB's innerworking, but as you can't see how O:IS and N3, let alone other internal things we don't know about. Can effect production I don't think you know as much about how CB works or miniature production as you think.
Do you really think that there are so many players that models are always out of stock?
As a retailer, I know there are a bunch of items have been unavailable from the UK distributor or direct from CB for months now.
Like what?
Currently the Interventors, several Support Packs, Djanbazan HMG, both Lasiqs, the Ghulam SWC box is out of stock already, some of the Dire Foes boxes. Until very recently, the Jotum, Iguana and Auxilia boxes.
It's very noticeable that all the items listed in the back of Icestorm to flesh out the armies have been hard to get hold of.
From someone who got frustrated due to the impossibility of getting the miniatures I wanted when Warmachine/Hordes went through their major expansion period after the MK2 stuff came out, and watched the same thing happen again with X-Wing and it's popularity, I'd just like to say this:
It'll be okay. Yes, it sucks that stuff you were looking forward to might be delayed a month or two (or more). Yes, it sucks that distributors are running out of stock as more and more stores start stocking the game.
Games that grow will have these growing pains. It's the perfect opportunity to catch up on painting unpainted miniatures you already have, maybe re-allocating the hobby budget that would have gone to the new miniatures to some terrain or accessories.
Yeah, it really is annoying when either a release you want is sold out or a release you're looking forward to delayed. And obviously CB is the company that makes this stuff, so it's "their fault." Does it being "their fault" do anything though? Sounds to me like they are doing something about it. Re-arranging their release schedule to accommodate the new demand and concentrating on introductory products these new customers are likely looking for.
Is that less than wonderful if you're a long time customer who wants one particular thing and you can't get your hands on it because it's either sold out at the distributor level or is having it's release date pushed back? Yes. Definitely. I was a Warmachine player through MK1 and found the same problem to be very annoying. I couldn't get the blisters I wanted in a timely fashion and some releases got pushed around a lot in 2010. The amount of new players though sure was worth it though.
Yeah I'm... I'm not seeing a reason for finger pointing here. Infinity is growing, a lot thanks to Icestorm. This growth is going to be good for both Corvus Belli and Infinity. If it means I can't get something I want on time, well, I'll just have to deal with it. it's not like I don't have enough to paint anyway.
Good to see Kaysm Beg is just to badass to be pushed back though.
Yeah, it really is annoying when either a release you want is sold out or a release you're looking forward to delayed. And obviously CB is the company that makes this stuff, so it's "their fault." Does it being "their fault" do anything though? Sounds to me like they are doing something about it. Re-arranging their release schedule to accommodate the new demand and concentrating on introductory products these new customers are likely looking for.
If they were "concentrating on introductory products", then N3 would either already be out or coming out this month.
As it stands? It won't be until January or even possibly February unless they actually have it available here in the US/Canada by the end of November.
Oh, and also?
This is not the first time something like this has happened. They keep partnering with Beasts of War for hyping up their big releases and then they get slammed--leading to a backlog.
It's like continually touching a hot oven and expecting not to get burnt.
I'm not sure the N3 rulebook is an introductory product in the same way Operation Ice Storm and the faction starter boxes are.
If Beasts of War promoting my stuff was so effective that it increased the sales on my products beyond what I could have realistically prepared for*, I'd keep partnering with them at every appropriate opportunity. It'd be madness not too. I'd much rather grow the customer and player base as a whole if it just means some releases will be delayed and there will be a back log at some distributors.
It's a pretty awesome problem to have for a small growing company.
If you want to redefine an internet marketing success as "touching a hot oven and expecting not to get burnt" you're welcome to do so. It kind of sounds like you'd only be happy with Infinity growing if they somehow predicted exactly what future sales would be, managed to increase production perfectly and had no issues or delays caused by growth at all. Calling Operation Icestorm a "mistake" in big red letters just seems silly to me. It was obviously a success with the production issues of its success being relatively minor so far. Delay some new releases and make your distributors happy by actually having the stock they bought in the past sell well?
* it's very risky and possibly corrosive to one's cash flow to overestimate production. And it's catastrophic if you end up being wrong and left sitting on dead stock. It can kill your business dead even in the middle of a growth period.
IJW wrote: It's very noticeable that all the items listed in the back of Icestorm to flesh out the armies have been hard to get hold of.
Sounds like the plan is working.
Make a new starter set Promote the starter set Sell the starter set Include a path for expansion for starter set purchasers Sell the products that are part of that path
They'll get the stuff that's out of stock back in stock. It may just mean they'll have to delay some new releases as production will be reallocated towards restocking that stuff. Just like all the small units and solos in Warmachine that you'd want to add to the starter sets when they exploded in popularity.
frozenwastes wrote: I'm not sure the N3 rulebook is an introductory product in the same way Operation Ice Storm and the faction starter boxes are.
Then you don't know what Operation Icestorm actually was, nor do you understand that the Combined Army Starter box that is coming out consists of ALL INFINITY THIRD EDITION MODELS.
Not a single model in the new Combined Army Starter Box is currently available in N2. It would be a waste for them to put out N2 profiles as well, since everything in the CA starter box as well is intended for the forthcoming EI Sectorial for Acheron Falls(which got pushed back for N3 to begin with!)
Oh, also for the record?
Icestorm was simply two starter sets packaged with cardboard terrain and quick-start rules.
The two starter sets in the box are coming out within the next few months. So any excuse about Icestorm "ruining their production line" is bull crap at this point since they manage to release boxed sets of 4 models every month with no real issue.
If Beasts of War promoting my stuff was so effective that it increased the sales on my products beyond what I could have realistically prepared for*, I'd keep partnering with them at every appropriate opportunity. It'd be madness not too. I'd much rather grow the customer and player base as a whole if it just means some releases will be delayed and there will be a back log at some distributors.
It's a pretty awesome problem to have for a small growing company.
They've partnered with them three years in a row now. This CONTINUALLY HAPPENS.
This is the THIRD YEAR IN A ROW where post-BoW Infinity week, they've had some kind of issue that is entirely within their remit to have controlled.
The only real exception I will grant them is Campaign: Paradiso's issues, as those were a combination of the printers screwing up and then here in the US the shipments getting completely screwed over by Hurricane Sandy hitting a major distribution hub for USPS/UPS/FedEx(in the form of NYC and NJ).
If you want to redefine an internet marketing success as "touching a hot oven and expecting not to get burnt" you're welcome to do so. It kind of sounds like you'd only be happy with Infinity growing if they somehow predicted exactly what future sales would be, managed to increase production perfectly and had no issues or delays caused by growth at all.
You understand that this was, according to Corvus Belli, going to be "their year to start expanding into the US market even further" right?
They are going to have no new rulebooks available for purchase before or immediately after Christmas. They're stating a December 8th shipping date.
That means mid to late January, at least, for the US distribution and retailers to start having copies. And that's if UPS/USPS/FedEx get their crap together immediately.
Add to it that Operation: Icestorm is virtually unavailable(great job predicting that one guys! 5000 copies lasting you a whole year, huh?) at any retail shop and they're doing some damage to any good relationship they can have with retailers that would actively host or stock their products.
* it's very risky and possibly corrosive to one's cash flow to overestimate production. And it's catastrophic if you end up being wrong and left sitting on dead stock. It can kill your business dead even in the middle of a growth period.
You know what else is "very risky and possibly corrosive to one's cash flow"?
Not having new product to release during the Christmas season
You can't make that argument actually because WoTC has a forecasting team that looks at prior information and suggests stock allocations accordingly.
The fact that Corvus Belli thought a "two player starter set" consisting of brand new sculpts of some of the oldest models in their line, for two of the most popular factions in their line, and getting hyped up by Beasts of War and other tabletop gaming outlets was going to have 5000 copies last "for a year" tells you that is not the case with CB.
So it was incompetence on their part and the mistake was remedied. What's the problem here?
I'd rather support a company full of gamers/artists that occasionally has a stroke of incompetence rather than a comapny full of businessmen/managers that often has strokes of malice and contempt for their customers.
There really is no problem here. New players may see a slow month, but they don't know any better; you do not need to speak for them, Kanluwen.
CB thought 5000 copies. They were mistaken. In a less cynical world, this would be a good thing that the game is exploding in popularity. Rather than. There is no problem here. Move on.
For those who insist O:I was always meant to be an extended release- Carlos 'Bostria', on the official forum, stated that Icestorm was indeed a limited run of 5000. He even suggests striking while the iron is hot in hopes to drum up impulse buys.
I can't figure out linking web pages on this tablet, but it's in the Terracotta Soldiers thread, dated July 27 2014...post #136.
Man, you really need to chill out dude.
You are up in arms about a luxury product for a game in which you push little painted men around on a board against other little painted men.
If / When it comes out you can elect to buy or not buy the items they have available.
Complaining to everyone here that CB isn't releasing to YOUR satisfaction is pointless. The rest of us will wait, with patience, like adults.
Please, start your own successful business selling little metal men, so people can complain about your time table.
Nothing you can say or do will make them be able to release what you want, when you want it. There are factors of which you are not, and can not be privy to.
ski2060 wrote: Man, you really need to chill out dude.
You are up in arms about a luxury product for a game in which you push little painted men around on a board against other little painted men.
If / When it comes out you can elect to buy or not buy the items they have available.
Complaining to everyone here that CB isn't releasing to YOUR satisfaction is pointless. The rest of us will wait, with patience, like adults.
Please, start your own successful business selling little metal men, so people can complain about your time table.
Nothing you can say or do will make them be able to release what you want, when you want it. There are factors of which you are not, and can not be privy to.
That's just Kan for you, he is King of Negativenancia. Hang out around here or the official forums long enough you just become desensitized to it.
Rusty Trombone wrote: For those who insist O:I was always meant to be an extended release- Carlos 'Bostria', on the official forum, stated that Icestorm was indeed a limited run of 5000. He even suggests striking while the iron is hot in hopes to drum up impulse buys.
I can't figure out linking web pages on this tablet, but it's in the Terracotta Soldiers thread, dated July 27 2014...post #136.
In your browser hold down on the web url at the top an option will come up which includes copy. Press copy and then hold down again where you want to paste until the paste option comes up.
Rusty Trombone wrote: For those who insist O:I was always meant to be an extended release- Carlos 'Bostria', on the official forum, stated that Icestorm was indeed a limited run of 5000. He even suggests striking while the iron is hot in hopes to drum up impulse buys.
I can't figure out linking web pages on this tablet, but it's in the Terracotta Soldiers thread, dated July 27 2014...post #136.
In your browser hold down on the web url at the top an option will come up which includes copy. Press copy and then hold down again where you want to paste until the paste option comes up.
Thats how it works on ipad at least.
Or you could just do it manually by typing the code and pasting the url in between.
Rusty Trombone wrote: For those who insist O:I was always meant to be an extended release- Carlos 'Bostria', on the official forum, stated that Icestorm was indeed a limited run of 5000. He even suggests striking while the iron is hot in hopes to drum up impulse buys.
I can't figure out linking web pages on this tablet, but it's in the Terracotta Soldiers thread, dated July 27 2014...post #136.
In your browser hold down on the web url at the top an option will come up which includes copy. Press copy and then hold down again where you want to paste until the paste option comes up.
Rusty Trombone wrote: For those who insist O:I was always meant to be an extended release- Carlos 'Bostria', on the official forum, stated that Icestorm was indeed a limited run of 5000. He even suggests striking while the iron is hot in hopes to drum up impulse buys.
I can't figure out linking web pages on this tablet, but it's in the Terracotta Soldiers thread, dated July 27 2014...post #136.
In your browser hold down on the web url at the top an option will come up which includes copy. Press copy and then hold down again where you want to paste until the paste option comes up.
Thats how it works on ipad at least.
Or you could just do in manually by typing the code and pasting the url inbetween.
So you're mad that the previously available combined army starter isn't currently available and the new one won't come out until after N3? So right now if you want to do Combined and start with a starter pack, you have to go sectorial or wait? Or find somewhere that still has it (Miniature Market has 2).
Yeah, that sucks. However, I'm willing to guess that the sales on it simply aren't high enough to make it a priority. Or they felt that the number currently in distribution would be sufficient until the new one can be released. And with the explosion of demand from their internet marketing, it looks like that might not be the case.
Looks like they messed up and there will be some unavailability of product ... just like there is every time a smaller gaming company goes through a massive growth phase.
Icestorm was simply two starter sets packaged with cardboard terrain and quick-start rules. The two starter sets in the box are coming out within the next few months. So any excuse about Icestorm "ruining their production line" is bull crap at this point since they manage to release boxed sets of 4 models every month with no real issue.
A metal spin casting machine has these disk shaped moulds that you put into it and it heats up the metal and then it flows into the moulds, The metal cools and you remove them and keep casting. The obvious limitation is that if you have one mould in there for a particular group of miniatures (like 70000 casts of the new PanO and Nomads miniatures for the first 5000 copies of Ice Storm) then you can't have the machine pumping out next month's releases.
You do understand that there's a difference between 70000 casts from a big splash release and the much lower numbers the typical monthly release probably sells at right?
Add to it that Operation: Icestorm is virtually unavailable(great job predicting that one guys! 5000 copies lasting you a whole year, huh?) at any retail shop and they're doing some damage to any good relationship they can have with retailers that would actively host or stock their products.
So when X-Wing went through that phase where demand outstripped supply and retailers couldn't get it in, that "damaged the relationship" between Fantasy Flight and stores and then all the retailers dropped X-wing right?
Oh no wait. That's not what happened at all.
You know what else is "very risky and possibly corrosive to one's cash flow"? Not having new product to release during the Christmas season
I don't see any evidence this will occur. It kind of looks like they are pushing back releases to make sure they produce the products that are in demand. They are addressing exactly this issue you are raising. I imagine for Christmas shopping there will be lots of Ice Storm and the new Terrain packs. Their demand is established. The real question is whether or not local stores and distributors will carry enough N3 books to meet the demand that will be there past the pre-orders.
It sounds to me like they're doing everything they should to make sure their holiday releases will be available on time. The holiday seller will be Operation Ice Storm and there will be some copies of N3 depending on distributor and store orders above their pre-orders and then when the people who buy OIS for holiday presents are ready for the full game, it should be nicely available. And the online resources are supposed to be updated for early January right? Sounds like a pretty well thought out Holiday season plan given the surprise demand for OIS.
ski2060 wrote: Man, you really need to chill out dude.
You are up in arms about a luxury product for a game in which you push little painted men around on a board against other little painted men.
If / When it comes out you can elect to buy or not buy the items they have available.
Complaining to everyone here that CB isn't releasing to YOUR satisfaction is pointless. The rest of us will wait, with patience, like adults.
Please, start your own successful business selling little metal men, so people can complain about your time table.
Nothing you can say or do will make them be able to release what you want, when you want it. There are factors of which you are not, and can not be privy to.
That's just Kan for you, he is King of Negativenancia. Hang out around here or the official forums long enough you just become desensitized to it.
Thanks for reminding me. Forgot all the "fun" of gw threads that he participated in.
Icestorm is doing exactly what it was intended to, bring in more people. They didn't plan that this many were at the tipping point with gw, and while that hurts a little, it's has actually gotten more word out there as everyone is asking about it. If they had made twice as many copies as before then they'd be sitting on shelves everywhere collecting dust like space hulk is at my flgs. There are benefits of selling out of product.
Rusty Trombone wrote: For those who insist O:I was always meant to be an extended release- Carlos 'Bostria', on the official forum, stated that Icestorm was indeed a limited run of 5000. He even suggests striking while the iron is hot in hopes to drum up impulse buys.
I can't figure out linking web pages on this tablet, but it's in the Terracotta Soldiers thread, dated July 27 2014...post #136.
In your browser hold down on the web url at the top an option will come up which includes copy. Press copy and then hold down again where you want to paste until the paste option comes up.
Rusty Trombone wrote: For those who insist O:I was always meant to be an extended release- Carlos 'Bostria', on the official forum, stated that Icestorm was indeed a limited run of 5000. He even suggests striking while the iron is hot in hopes to drum up impulse buys.
I can't figure out linking web pages on this tablet, but it's in the Terracotta Soldiers thread, dated July 27 2014...post #136.
In your browser hold down on the web url at the top an option will come up which includes copy. Press copy and then hold down again where you want to paste until the paste option comes up.
Thats how it works on ipad at least.
Or you could just do in manually by typing the code and pasting the url inbetween.
"My personal opinion is that this product is going to sell all those copies during this year and the first half of 2015."
His personal opinion was wrong. CB made the smart move of not overproducing and being stuck with dead stock, but a successful internet marketing campaign has proven it to be insufficient. So what do you do if you think you need another 5000 copies ASAP? You reallocate your box printer's production of new product packaging to the OIS packaging, place rush orders with anyone you outsourced anything to for more product to put in the new boxes and you reallocate your miniature production to the 70000 casts you'll need for the next 5000 copies and you delay new releases until you can catch up.
I just don't understand what the problem is. This is what small companies do when they have unexpected growth. Asking them to perfectly forecast unexpected growth makes no sense. And all it takes is one major overproduction of product that doesn't sell to destroy cash flow and cause the company major problems. Based on the data they had, 5000 copies of OIS made sense to them. Surprise they were wrong? They should have seen it coming and made 10000 or 15000 copies? But then if it was a flop the dead stock could have sunk the company.
Is there any actual news, or will we have another couple pages of "it was limited/not limited" and "is production fast enough" that should be in the subforums?
Rusty Trombone wrote: For those who insist O:I was always meant to be an extended release- Carlos 'Bostria', on the official forum, stated that Icestorm was indeed a limited run of 5000. He even suggests striking while the iron is hot in hopes to drum up impulse buys.
I can't figure out linking web pages on this tablet, but it's in the Terracotta Soldiers thread, dated July 27 2014...post #136.
There was a lot said about Icestorm. Originally it was never mentioned to be a limited release, bostria then (as per that link) said it was limited, then further clarified via personally speaking to people (IIRC at the Spanish Interplanetary tournament) that they would consider another run if that 5000 ran out that might or might not have the CSU, and many other variations of that message.
Simply posting one comment isn't giving the whole picture of what went on around the info dump of Icestorm. Basically, they were very uninformative and gave out snippets of information through various outlets and personal conversations, which is fairly typical of CB. Communication isn't their strong point.
Basically, the pervading message at the time was limited to 5,000 copies unless the demand was there for more. They fully expected those 5,000 to last at least 6 months, rather than sell nearly twice their initial order in the pre order period. Officially, as in as an announcement, it was never called a limited release.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was never actually meant to get out that it was limited to 5,000. That's really an internal business decision based on risk management. They looked at what they could financially support for a starter box run and made a decision. it was when that information made it to the public that the panic about getting a copy started.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
d-usa wrote: Is there any actual news, or will we have another couple pages of "it was limited/not limited" and "is production fast enough" that should be in the subforums?
The actual news that started all of this is that next months released will be limited to Kaysm Beg and the new Combined Army starter. Due to production limitations caused by making so many more Icestorm copies than anticipated, the Alguacile special weapon box, Hac Tao hacker and new ASS character got pushed back, and that December will have 6 releases instead of 5. Which of the 3 pushed back made it to December and where the other two wound up, we don't know.
d-usa wrote: Is there any actual news, or will we have another couple pages of "it was limited/not limited" and "is production fast enough" that should be in the subforums?
^ This
Don't get me wrong, I've been waiting for weeks on the panda bear box and the aux box to complete the O:IS 300pt armies and it sucks, but it shows how many more people are playing and making the game grow.
"My personal opinion is that this product is going to sell all those copies during this year and the first half of 2015."
His personal opinion was wrong. CB made the smart move of not overproducing and being stuck with dead stock, but a successful internet marketing campaign has proven it to be insufficient. So what do you do if you think you need another 5000 copies ASAP? You reallocate your box printer's production of new product packaging to the OIS packaging, place rush orders with anyone you outsourced anything to for more product to put in the new boxes and you reallocate your miniature production to the 70000 casts you'll need for the next 5000 copies and you delay new releases until you can catch up.
I just don't understand what the problem is. This is what small companies do when they have unexpected growth. Asking them to perfectly forecast unexpected growth makes no sense. And all it takes is one major overproduction of product that doesn't sell to destroy cash flow and cause the company major problems. Based on the data they had, 5000 copies of OIS made sense to them. Surprise they were wrong? They should have seen it coming and made 10000 or 15000 copies? But then if it was a flop the dead stock could have sunk the company.
Why did you quote mine his second sentence, ignoring the first? I assume because hindsight favors it? Yeah, more were made(and in 20\20 were assuredly a planned possibility). Still, a represenative clearly states, unambiguously, that it was a limited run. Black and white. I personally don't care that O:I exceeded expectations, but why give a false impression like that? Playing coy like this isn't good for business, it frustrates customers and indicates a lack in planning. I'm proof of the first point and delays are evidence of the second.
@-Loki-...
Too much communication. As I wasn't in Indy, Vigo, etc...(and I don't tend to watch videos, take third-hand accounts...)all I have is words typed by the man himself. Missing further clarifications is likely, but not my fault. Don't say it if it ain't right. Eh, who am I kidding, though...it's Bostria the Troll King we're talking about here.
d-usa wrote: Is there any actual news, or will we have another couple pages of "it was limited/not limited" and "is production fast enough" that should be in the subforums?
There is a tendency among Infinity players-- and I am as guilty of this as eveyone else, so, not casting stones-- to use news & rumors type threads (on the official forums) as a Chat Box of sorts.
Did anyone figure out which Haqq mini that #snipershot of the sword belonged to? Given that it is painted, and the next Haqq release is Kasym Beg, perhaps it is from the standing version of Kasym. Since I have Kasyma Beg-- ie bootleg Penthesilea-- I'm not that worried about Kasym. Now the twins OTOH, I'll wait to see those minis before I decide which Kum biker box I want. I don't feel the need for more than 4 Kum bikers (including Yojimbo as a Kum proxy) in the collection. Standing Yojimbo is to be a Saladin proxy. Or a Hafza pretending to be Saladin.
Of course who knows what further delays will come. CB is moving their facilities and that sort of thing can wreak havoc on production schedules.
Sounds as if CB has some 'growing pains' as Infinity gains in popularity?
Maybe a good 'problem' to have, provided they can work their way out successfully?
Anyway, yes, back on topic here - we've got a lovely Infinity General sub-forum (it even still has that new car smell too!) for all of the continuing discussion about...all that other stuff.
Rusty Trombone wrote: Why did you quote mine his second sentence, ignoring the first?
I'm addressing a separate issue. I have no dog in the hunt when it comes to whether it was technically "limited edition" or not. I was using your post and the quote about what how long he expected the 5000 copies to last to make a larger point about risk management and what one should do in a situation like this. And the answer is exactly what CB did. Don't over extend, make the amount you think will sell and if they sell out, make more. Reallocate production as needed, even if means pushing back some release dates.
Still, a represenative clearly states, unambiguously, that it was a limited run. Black and white.
Yes. Absolutely.
It's sad that the news of product delays results from this increase in demand. Hopefully they can get caught up and I doubt that Kan's prediction of none of the popular products available for sale at Christmas will come true. Privateer ended up pushing back releases several times during 2010. Hopefully we won't have news or rumors of repeated repeated release delays from Corvus Belli. And hopefully the rumors of distributors running out of popular items will mean that players, new and existing, won't end up meaning people won't be able to get what they want like the 6 months or so of scarcity on Warmachine stuff.
Rusty Trombone wrote: [Still, a represenative clearly states, unambiguously, that it was a limited run. Black and white.
Which contradicted the official announcment, which made no mention of it. That same official representative then went on to contradict himself several times by following it up with the statement that they would do more if the demand was there, meaning it's not actually limited, just limited by demand.
Again, arguing that from one quote on the message board isn't giving the full picture. The overall message was that its availability would be determined by the demand. The only actually limited part would be the CSU, which would only be in pre ordered copies (again, maybe, no clear answer).
Just because the other information wasn't from bostria posting on the message board, doesn't mean he didn't make the various contradictory statements.
The Combat Company has been handling the shipping for those for the Australian leg of the kickstarter. I've been waiting for the stuff they ordered as general stock to show up on their store for a while, for the very reason they would be perfect for Infinity. Generic sci fi streets.
Is it just me, or is this just the same buildings Bandua have been making for a while but pre coloured?
I actually really like the Bandua stuff. Their square, stepped buildings, anyway. They're a cheap, simple way of giving a batleifled different levels, it's just a shame they're not interior-friendly.
Rusty Trombone wrote: [Still, a represenative clearly states, unambiguously, that it was a limited run. Black and white.
Which contradicted the official announcment, which made no mention of it. That same official representative then went on to contradict himself several times by following it up with the statement that they would do more if the demand was there, meaning it's not actually limited, just limited by demand.
Again, arguing that from one quote on the message board isn't giving the full picture. The overall message was that its availability would be determined by the demand. The only actually limited part would be the CSU, which would only be in pre ordered copies (again, maybe, no clear answer).
Just because the other information wasn't from bostria posting on the message board, doesn't mean he didn't make the various contradictory statements.
I get that. My overall gripe is with not being able to take statements at face value here. Sometimes official releases are wrong or amended...I expect mouthpieces for the company to have the pertinent information before, during and after. It's not an unreasonable request.
NuclearMessiah wrote: Not directly related to Infinity, but I did see Secret Weapon Minatures released their own set of battle board like Terrain Tiles
Infinity is played on a 4'x4' board, so you only need 16 pieces. That SecretWeapon set comes with 24 pieces ideal for a 6'x4' Warhammer board. It'd be nice if we could pick-and choose what parts we want, but the molds they have may not allow for that.
Absolutionis wrote: Infinity is played on a 4'x4' board, so you only need 16 pieces. That SecretWeapon set comes with 24 pieces ideal for a 6'x4' Warhammer board. It'd be nice if we could pick-and choose what parts we want, but the molds they have may not allow for that.
Try Infinity on a 6x4. CB actually recommend it for 300pts and higher, in both directions (deploying on short sides or long sides). Short sides really makes the weapon ranges mean something and long sides really gives you have a lot of room to move about. We don't play on 4x4 for Infinity - in fact I had my first game on a 4x4 on the weekend because the store sent its Infinity table to PAX. 4x4 felt cramped and far too easy to get range on enemies.
Absolutionis wrote: So it was incompetence on their part and the mistake was remedied. What's the problem here?
I'd rather support a company full of gamers/artists that occasionally has a stroke of incompetence rather than a comapny full of businessmen/managers that often has strokes of malice and contempt for their customers.
There really is no problem here. New players may see a slow month, but they don't know any better; you do not need to speak for them, Kanluwen.
CB thought 5000 copies. They were mistaken. In a less cynical world, this would be a good thing that the game is exploding in popularity...
I wouldn't even go so far as to call it incompetence. Hindsight is is always 20:20 -- but it would have been reckless for them to overestimate sales and be lumbered with stock that wasn't moving. Even if they were expecting this level of success, a small company can't afford to take a risk like that based on uncertainty.
As a new player myself, I'm happy to be joining a game that's expanding in such a promising way. It's a bit weird being in this kind of rules limbo atm, but it has given me time to paint my I:O stuff, and actually learn a bit about infinity before N3 drops. I kind of like that Infinity vets are going be figuring out new stuff at the same time I am, rather than while I'm still learning the basics.
Friend of mine has a set of these, the previously released unpainted ones. Bloody brilliant, having them stack within each other for easy packing/transport is a a great idea, and means that he doesn't have to use 2-3 crates to move around his terrain, like I do with the MAS apartment buildings and the like.
Kanluwen wrote: Oh, also for the record?
Icestorm was simply two starter sets packaged with cardboard terrain and quick-start rules.
The two starter sets in the box are coming out within the next few months. So any excuse about Icestorm "ruining their production line" is bull crap at this point since they manage to release boxed sets of 4 models every month with no real issue.
Polite request - please don't state unresearched opinion as fact.
My best starter pack sales so far have been for the Morat Aggression Force, for obvious reasons. Icestorm sold TEN TIMES as many copies compared to the Morat starter's peak period, the first month or so that it was available.
Even if all of those Icestorm copies were being split (which I know from speaking to my customers is not the case), that's still five times the sales volume of the most popular starter pack of recent years.
From speaking to other retailers, distributers and CB themselves, that's been typical.
So no, it's not bull crap, it's the equivalent (guestimated from CB's annual turnover and the number of Icestorms pre-ordered in total) of 2-3 months' production. Not just the new releases for 2-3 months, their entire normal production for 2-3 months including the rest of the Infinity range.
Absolutionis wrote: Infinity is played on a 4'x4' board, so you only need 16 pieces. That SecretWeapon set comes with 24 pieces ideal for a 6'x4' Warhammer board. It'd be nice if we could pick-and choose what parts we want, but the molds they have may not allow for that.
Kanluwen wrote: Oh, also for the record?
Icestorm was simply two starter sets packaged with cardboard terrain and quick-start rules.
The two starter sets in the box are coming out within the next few months. So any excuse about Icestorm "ruining their production line" is bull crap at this point since they manage to release boxed sets of 4 models every month with no real issue.
Polite request - please don't state unresearched opinion as fact.
My best starter pack sales so far have been for the Morat Aggression Force, for obvious reasons. Icestorm sold TEN TIMES as many copies compared to the Morat starter's peak period, the first month or so that it was available.
Even if all of those Icestorm copies were being split (which I know from speaking to my customers is not the case), that's still five times the sales volume of the most popular starter pack of recent years.
From speaking to other retailers, distributers and CB themselves, that's been typical.
So no, it's not bull crap, it's the equivalent (guestimated from CB's annual turnover and the number of Icestorms pre-ordered in total) of 2-3 months' production. Not just the new releases for 2-3 months, their entire normal production for 2-3 months including the rest of the Infinity range.
For one product.
Whoa, I had not realized Icestorm was that popular compared to other offerings, but it's certainly all for the good.
It is a complete game in the box. Even if you never go beyond what it contains, you can have fun with just its contents. It is priced very reasonably for what it contains. We gamers know a good bargain when we see one.
Now, News. ( yeah, I'm going on topic ) This Saturday, 8 November, at Games and Stuff , there will be a big Infinity tournament, the Baltimore Brawl. Right now it looks like over 30 people will be there. More info is here, Baltimore Brawl If any of you guys are able to come out, do so.
I know I mentioned this before, but I figured one last reminder wouldn't suck. This looks to be the last big N2 tournament here in the USA, so come on out and help send the old gal off in style. Or just drop by to see the action. I know some of y'all are within reasonable driving distance.
Please stop talking about him like he can't see what your saying. I can't imagine it's a very nice experience. I also would advise that whether you mean it or not you are baiting him to say something back in his defence. It's okay to poke fun at someone when they are part of the joke but this is just cruel. He probably doesn't care but I'm not happy reading it and that's enough for me to say something. Wrap it up, lads.
Also it's off topic. Hope you get a great turnout Red!
Now, News. ( yeah, I'm going on topic ) This Saturday, 8 November, at Games and Stuff , there will be a big Infinity tournament, the Baltimore Brawl. Right now it looks like over 30 people will be there. More info is here, Baltimore Brawl If any of you guys are able to come out, do so.
I know I mentioned this before, but I figured one last reminder wouldn't suck. This looks to be the last big N2 tournament here in the USA, so come on out and help send the old gal off in style. Or just drop by to see the action. I know some of y'all are within reasonable driving distance.
There's at least two biggish tournaments(depending on what you define as "big") for N2 planned at Atomic Empire in the coming months.
The January one might be dropped though since they'd rather start getting N3 up and running and if people get their copies of N3, there's talk of those with copies bringing them in and sharing it out.
Red Harvest wrote: It is a complete game in the box. Even if you never go beyond what it contains, you can have fun with just its contents. It is priced very reasonably for what it contains. We gamers know a good bargain when we see one.
Now, News. ( yeah, I'm going on topic ) This Saturday, 8 November, at Games and Stuff , there will be a big Infinity tournament, the Baltimore Brawl. Right now it looks like over 30 people will be there. More info is here, Baltimore Brawl If any of you guys are able to come out, do so.
I know I mentioned this before, but I figured one last reminder wouldn't suck. This looks to be the last big N2 tournament here in the USA, so come on out and help send the old gal off in style. Or just drop by to see the action. I know some of y'all are within reasonable driving distance.
My wife says me driving from Missouri is not reasonable, especially with family portrait this weekend.
Please someone make a save the caskuda plee. Even if they get everyone to make poster board signs and walk like they are picketing the store, then send the photo to Corvus Beli
Wonder if CB is doing anything cool at Adepticon. I haven't decided to go and so haven't looked up events (if they're even slotted in this early, probably not). Is there usually anything Infinity wise there?
Just drop by, NuclearMessiah. GnS isn't charging admission to get into the store. Meet and Greet everybody. Arrange future playdates, do some networking...
Red Harvest wrote: Just drop by, NuclearMessiah. GnS isn't charging admission to get into the store. Meet and Greet everybody. Arrange future playdates, do some networking...
...hover behind tournament players giving tactical advice while eating a tuna salad sandwich. There are really a lot of ways you can still participate.
Red Harvest wrote: It is a complete game in the box. Even if you never go beyond what it contains, you can have fun with just its contents. It is priced very reasonably for what it contains. We gamers know a good bargain when we see one.
Now, News. ( yeah, I'm going on topic ) This Saturday, 8 November, at Games and Stuff , there will be a big Infinity tournament, the Baltimore Brawl. Right now it looks like over 30 people will be there. More info is here, Baltimore Brawl If any of you guys are able to come out, do so.
I know I mentioned this before, but I figured one last reminder wouldn't suck. This looks to be the last big N2 tournament here in the USA, so come on out and help send the old gal off in style. Or just drop by to see the action. I know some of y'all are within reasonable driving distance.
Wish I could make it! Within driving distance and everything, but my stuff isn't painted yet, and I refuse to play in public with an unpainted army.
Harumph. Well that is not an acceptable reason at all. Are they primed? Then they are ready to go. My minis are not fully painted. Nor is the terrain I'm bringing, but I'm still going.
Big numbers here people. The Texans had a big tournament not so long ago, and we here on the East Coast need to exceed their attendance.
Really, come, and maybe get in a demo game or something. Do you have anything else better to do this week-end?
Dear people playing at the Brawl: If you have a Caskuda, please use it! A tourney lineup with like 10 Caskuda lists would be a hilarious sendoff for the big bugs.
re: not-fully-painted armies:
Guys, the Infinity scene is rad. Your army does not need to be fully painted, you just need to be nicer than 40K players.
Eventually, like a few years from now, maybe we'll all get snobby about paint. But it isn't that way yet.
I found when I switched to not fielding unpainted miniatures it really normalized my collection and painting rates and I actually started painting faster than I was buying. It's not an approach for everyone, but I get why some people approach games that way (after all, I do).
GrimDork wrote: Wonder if CB is doing anything cool at Adepticon. I haven't decided to go and so haven't looked up events (if they're even slotted in this early, probably not). Is there usually anything Infinity wise there?
There were a few nice events for INFINITY at Adepticon 2014, as well as a well run tournament, but no "Official" CB presence.
They make it over here for some events (NOVA and...?) and of course GENCON.
Who knows about Adepticon 2015 though?
Maybe they'll surprise us, especially with N3 launching?
As a matter of fact, since I know I won't be going to Adepticon in 2015, I can almost guarantee that CB will be showing up!
GrimDork wrote: Wonder if CB is doing anything cool at Adepticon. I haven't decided to go and so haven't looked up events (if they're even slotted in this early, probably not). Is there usually anything Infinity wise there?
There were a few nice events for INFINITY at Adepticon 2014, as well as a well run tournament, but no "Official" CB presence.
They make it over here for some events (NOVA and...?) and of course GENCON.
Who knows about Adepticon 2015 though?
Maybe they'll surprise us, especially with N3 launching?
As a matter of fact, since I know I won't be going to Adepticon in 2015, I can almost guarantee that CB will be showing up!
We are trying to get a bigger presence at Adepticon next year. I'm hoping we will be able to do more because it's moving to a bigger venue. I'll just be happy if we can get a retailer in there that's going to sell it. Every time I did a demo people asked where they could get it and I could only tell them online or a local store.
Savnock wrote: Dear people playing at the Brawl: If you have a Caskuda, please use it! A tourney lineup with like 10 Caskuda lists would be a hilarious sendoff for the big bugs.
re: not-fully-painted armies:
Guys, the Infinity scene is rad. Your army does not need to be fully painted, you just need to be nicer than 40K players.
Eventually, like a few years from now, maybe we'll all get snobby about paint. But it isn't that way yet.
I'm actually much more snobby about Infinity than with mass-battle stuff. Come on man, it's 10 miniatures!
Savnock wrote: Dear people playing at the Brawl: If you have a Caskuda, please use it! A tourney lineup with like 10 Caskuda lists would be a hilarious sendoff for the big bugs.
re: not-fully-painted armies:
Guys, the Infinity scene is rad. Your army does not need to be fully painted, you just need to be nicer than 40K players.
Eventually, like a few years from now, maybe we'll all get snobby about paint. But it isn't that way yet.
I'm actually much more snobby about Infinity than with mass-battle stuff. Come on man, it's 10 miniatures!
Yeah...'only' ten. . (I currently have 18 primed minis cluttering up my breakfast table.) My next two weeks are gonna be busy.
Only 10 miniatures? U B trippin'. It started out as 10. Now it is 80. But for the tournament, just 20-- because for ITS you get 2 lists, remember?
Right now, it looks like north of 30 people are coming. I will bring my terrain too, so If anybody wants to see if it looks good in RL, you can and should come out. But you'll have to be in the tournament to play on it.
Ah, I have news. The Plan from CB, according to the fellow who does the Army Builder, is to have the updated version of the Army Builder ready to go for N3 when N3 is released. And it will be free. There are also plans for a mobile (ie not Shock wave flash ) version. I still hope that it, or at least the desktop version, can be saved for off line use.
Yesssss. I really hope they have it ready. A mobile version would be perfect. I know Aleph Toobox is for android ( but sucks on phones since its so small) and Mayanet is for ipad. Mayanet is really nice, but will become outdated soon
Thanks for the info about adepticon. I'm within driving distance and sort of would like to attend, but there's no way I'd be going for just GW stuff and unless Mantic showed up with some neat events (and I'm not sure they're quite ready given Janes Gully at GenCon) Infinity would be the only other thing I was really interested in there
We are planning on a couple tournaments and special games. The all spec ops game we did last year was a hit so we might do something similar again. I don't want to give out too much yet. As far as guests, I really have no idea if anyone is going to come right now. I was just at the new place it’s going to be for a hobby model convention. It’s really nice. A lot more space! Our local store that sells Infinity is going to be there now. I’m going to heavily suggest they bring a lot to sell.
Huh.
Not sure how I feel about him honestly. The musculature is getting in to 'crazy bananas' territory and the hair is a bit iffy.
The two bikers are gorgeous models, this one overdoses on the same themes a little,
I think that's the most negative I've ever been about an infinity model.
Yes, they are.
The Bikers are very cost effective. 11 pts "Impetuous" troops and "Dogged", this means that even after receiving one wound they still continue charging against the enemy.
They are big, difficult to control, and in 3rd editon wont get the benefits of partial cover... and EVEN with those "cons" they are a terrible threat to your enemy.
That's great to hear. I just looooove the models. Have not played a single game of Infinity (neither 2nd nor 3rd) but liking a model is the best reason to use it, right?
Wow he is a beaut.. although that's possibly not the correct word to use!
Think if even if you aren't into Infinity you could get him along with the two Kum bikers to have some kind of cool post-apoc biker gang display or something.
I'm glad to see more "flavour" injected into their model range. No one does better power-armour sculpts, but I like seeing them stretch their creativity, and low-tech models for non-Ariadne are pretty unique.
Plus the lack of armour will make it easier for my JSA slice 'em up.
I'm glad to see more "flavour" injected into their model range. No one does better power-armour sculpts, but I like seeing them stretch their creativity, and low-tech models for non-Ariadne are pretty unique.
Plus the lack of armour will make it easier for my JSA slice 'em up.
Yeah, yeah. Big talk, let's see some dice rolling.
The Warstore wrote:We just received a restock on Operation Icestorm that contains the Promotional CSU Operative Miniature. This is the last batch that will contain the promotional miniature and we have a limited supply. Get yours while they last! http://www.thewarstore.com/product93647.html
That happens with steroid users who only work out their upper bodies. He certainly looks like he's been juicing.
RoninXiC wrote: So... I only have the Haqqislam starter set... would a set of 2 biker and him be a good addition?
Cheap smoke, chain rifles and appalling speed. They are nasty in N2, and I suspect that even with the larger base they will continue to be. So, an unqualified yes.
Impressive mini, but almost a parody, to my eyes.
The only other release this month is the CA starter. I expect that to be all sorts of awesome. I predict that I won't be disappointed.
Absolutionis wrote: I think the influence is totally the Batman villain Lobo.
Spoiler:
Being the comic geek that I am I have to correct you. He was sometimes a superman villain. Especially in the cartoon. He would have pulped Batman with his pinky.
GrimDork wrote: Huh.. I'll have to keep that guy in mind if I ever want to do a long-haired the Hulk riding a motorcycle
I mean it's a really neat model, but he seems awfully chunky muscles wise.
I think I'll stick to the Aragotos (someday) since they'll work better for an Akira themed bike gang anyway
Nah, he's much more similar to Skar than his pops, the Hulk. In any case, I suspect my shadowrun gang models will be plus one with him. Bootleg Penthesilea has to hang with someone!
I like that Haqqislam is becoming the manliest faction.
Kum Riders, Kaysm Beg, Tarik, bearded mini-hulk Ghazi. Give us more, CB! I want to see the Caliphate super soldiers and Khanate guys overwhelm the game with manliness.
Right now I am thinking of some kind of Khan conversion (the Ricardo Montalban, Star Trek movie/series version) would be absolutely ideal for the Caliphate super soldiers
-Loki- wrote: I like that Haqqislam is becoming the manliest faction.
Kum Riders, Kaysm Beg, Tarik, bearded mini-hulk Ghazi. Give us more, CB! I want to see the Caliphate super soldiers and Khanate guys overwhelm the game with manliness.
Pacific wrote:Right now I am thinking of some kind of Khan conversion (the Ricardo Montalban, Star Trek movie/series version) would be absolutely ideal for the Caliphate super soldiers
Absolutionis wrote:All with rage-fist sculpts, of course.
Pacific wrote:Right now I am thinking of some kind of Khan conversion (the Ricardo Montalban, Star Trek movie/series version) would be absolutely ideal for the Caliphate super soldiers
Absolutionis wrote:All with rage-fist sculpts, of course.
Come now... you can use that pic for the iconic rage fist when this one exists (although IIRC he may be technically holding a microphone).
Spoiler:
Much better. How do special characters work in Infinity? Are they upgrades to regular models or do they take up their own slot? If something has AVA 2, can you take two regular mooks (like the Haq bikers) and then add the character (like Kaysim Beg for a total of three)?
Pacific wrote:Right now I am thinking of some kind of Khan conversion (the Ricardo Montalban, Star Trek movie/series version) would be absolutely ideal for the Caliphate super soldiers
Absolutionis wrote:All with rage-fist sculpts, of course.
Khan Noonien Singh is a Sikh played by a Latino, or a lily white Britisher pig.
Pacific wrote:Right now I am thinking of some kind of Khan conversion (the Ricardo Montalban, Star Trek movie/series version) would be absolutely ideal for the Caliphate super soldiers
Absolutionis wrote:All with rage-fist sculpts, of course.
Khan Noonien Singh is a Sikh played by a Latino, or a lily white Britisher pig.
Pacific wrote:Right now I am thinking of some kind of Khan conversion (the Ricardo Montalban, Star Trek movie/series version) would be absolutely ideal for the Caliphate super soldiers
Absolutionis wrote:All with rage-fist sculpts, of course.
Come now... you can use that pic for the iconic rage fist when this one exists (although IIRC he may be technically holding a microphone).
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
Much better. How do special characters work in Infinity? Are they upgrades to regular models or do they take up their own slot? If something has AVA 2, can you take two regular mooks (like the Haq bikers) and then add the character (like Kaysim Beg for a total of three)?
Thank Kan for answering him. Next time warboss, rules question belong in the Infinity rules forum, and on top of that we have a rather recent thread about this very subject.
Oh and 'cause I said I'd show do it. Size comparison of the tiny Yu Jing fellow.
His arms were torn off by the giants next to him. He's smaller than the CSU figure (which I think that's the smallest in Icestorm)!
The size creep in INFINITY is getting a bit...worrying.
ski2060 wrote: So all women are tiny? She's a Corporate Security agent. She may be a 6 foot 6 inch Amazon with genetic tailoring for her chosen profession.
CSU is in scale with the ORC trooper. The new 3d sculpts do seem closer to a 32mm standard than a 28mm standard though. It is the weapon scaling that I find annoying, not the size differences in the minis. 1mm height difference is about 5.5cm (2 1/4 inches) height difference, in scale, so a few mm one way or the other are entirely within the normal variations of human height.
Now, volume-- like the CSU's thighs-- a different story.
I don't mind the larger scale, so long as all future models stick to it. And that it is not so ridiculous (yes tarik I am looking at you) as to make the more recent hand sculpts look out of place.
How come nobody complains about the stances? That 25mm base (23mm across the top) is about ~126cm in scale, or ~50 inches. You go stand with you feet 50 inches apart. Yeah.
CSU is in scale with the ORC trooper. The new 3d sculpts do seem closer to a 32mm standard than a 28mm standard though. It is the weapon scaling that I find annoying, not the size differences in the minis. 1mm height difference is about 5.5cm (2 1/4 inches) height difference, in scale, so a few mm one way or the other are entirely within the normal variations of human height.
Now, volume-- like the CSU's thighs-- a different story.
I don't mind the larger scale, so long as all future models stick to it. And that it is not so ridiculous (yes tarik I am looking at you) as to make the more recent hand sculpts look out of place.
How come nobody complains about the stances? That 25mm base (23mm across the top) is about ~126cm in scale, or ~50 inches. You go stand with you feet 50 inches apart. Yeah.
It's sad to line my treasured Domaru Butai up next to the icestorm models There's no denying the size creep in infinity. Corvus Belli does listen to the community so hopefully they cut it out. I don't mind if they keep the new bigger look, but stop feeding the new units miracle grow.
I don't see why the 3D modeling is to blame. In fact, shouldn't 3D modeling allow sculptors to snap models to 28mm every time?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alpharius wrote: Seeing as that's the first good scale shot I've seen - no, not off topic at all.
It is Newsworthy!
And disturbing.
The keisotsu Butai comparison vs sun tze wasn't proof enough?
I think "scale wonkiness" is a much better way to characterize what is going on. Go back and look at some of the earliest stuff CB produced. You have some fairly chunky stuff in the line (the original Hac Tao is pretty beefy) as well as some things that are way over scale like Shaquille O'Monk and the Zhanshi HMG.
Go on a few years and you see a lot of minis (especially females, but not exclusively) being super under-scaled. The worst culprits being things like the Hsien HMG and Hac Tao ML. These models are so horribly out of scale I cringe a bit when a use them. My normal-sized Shaolin from the starter is larger than the Hsien he pops smoke for.
Then they went on to normalize things a little, but under natural sculpting methods the scale was still all over the place. Then they had the tiny realistic weapons phase recently which seemed to also reduce the overall scale as well (at least my Wu Ming box is a lot smaller than the Wu Ming BS I got years earlier).
What I see here is CB finally having a good way to normalize scale and to get the effect they want. No more weedy HI, no more towering light infantry that make Catachans look like they don't even lift, no more weapons vacillating from big'n'beefy to small'n'realistic.
Infinity hasn't really ever had "scale creep" in that it has never had a real, objective scale (a downside to using a lot of different freelance sculptors really). Take a cross section of minis across a year of releases and you're liable to see a massive variation in terms of size and scale in each.
CB obviously have a vision of how they want things to look on the table and with digital sculpting they can finally achieve that. But yeah, comparing new stuff to old (especially since CB apparently want HI to look big and imposing) will definitely yield wonky results.
Hell in the above photo, the use of the Celestial Guard only shows us how modern stuff compares to one of their "weedy model" phases. Compare that CG to things from a year before and it'll look small as well. Hell, it bugs me that all the Celestial Guard are smaller than the first Celestial Guard sculpt that came in the re-done Yu Jing starter (he is crouching down low and is almost as tall as those standing straight up and is definitely thicker around the limbs with a much larger head).
Infinity has always had wonky scale, sometimes it feels like it comes out worse than Battletech in terms of scale wonk.
Past CB sculpts for infinity were when the company was small and I can tell you from first hand experience making a miniature line small scale that model scale across the board over time is easily looked past.
Current CB seems to be all about updating and consolidating their line from the bottom up (Or top down sounds more appropriate as they aren't axing it all at once but are phasing things out). They are doing this utilizing 3D sculpting which very much DOES have a minimum scale requirement due to printer limitations with fine details.
Basically my best prediction is that ALL new models will be in scale with eachother, but for the time being will look out of place next to previous hand sculpted minis.
I'd just be patient and slowly collect all the new hotness
I have to admit this makes me want to hold back on purchasing anything from pre 3d sculpting going forward. Or only purchasing older stuff and not adding new stuff to forces containing lots of old stuff.
Absolutionis wrote: They have also scaled down their models. Compare the earlier Djanbazan and Janissary sculpts to their more recent iterations.
I have to agree, the only reason that this seems like massive scale creep is because CB has spent a good few years shrinking things (with a few outliers in either direction). Infinity's scale hasn't just been moving in a single direction.
The HMG Daofei is another good one to look at for the trend. Stands between half a head shorter to exactly level with most other HI sculpts in the line. This would be fine but her posture has her crunched down and hunched over. At full extension she should be a head or two taller than most other HI I own (even worse on the tiny HI like the Hac Tao ML and Hsien HMG).
1st Edition Infinity stuff up to early 2nd Edition tended to be on the large size, there was a big downward trend in size over the next several years (mixed because they worked from a stable of freelance sculpters who tended to have their own ideas about height and size of minis). This ended up with things like HI getting skinnier and weedier as time went on. Comparing early Yu Jing HI (Hac Tao MULTI, original Hsien MULTI, the Invincibles, Daofei HMG, etc) to newer stuff (especially things like the new Wu Ming) gives a pretty stark difference in scales between older and newer minis.
I can't say I am upset, some of my Infinity stuff was so bloody tiny that it was nearly impossible to paint nicely. So upping the size back up again and normalizing scales between unit types so that HI is larger than LI (something they've never been able to do properly) will start edging things back toward being easier canvases to paint on again.
I have to admit, I was not a fan of the shrinking sizes. When Infinity first started up, folks applauded it for being true-scale and not having oversized heads and big beefy hands. That they kept on shrinking things until we got goofy stuff like 2-3mm thick ankles just shoved stuff in entirely the wrong direction. So it is nice to see that the new method not only makes scale easier to track but may even require the larger scale in the first place. The only jarring part for me is how low the scale got before they pulled it back up. But hopefully digital sculpting is the end of the scale roller-coaster for Infinity in both directions. The more we can avoid disappointments like the Hsien HMG and the Hac Tao ML, the better.
Red Corsair wrote: I wouldn't worry.
They are doing this utilizing 3D sculpting which very much DOES have a minimum scale requirement due to printer limitations with fine details.
I'd love to know where you are getting your information. 3D printing these days can handle pretty much anything that most wargame companies would throw at it. At least my research into buying a 3D printer suggests that. There are sub-$10,000 printers that can handle a 6 micron resolution, which should be excellent detail, even for figures at 15mm. Also, look at some of the stuff being done by other manufacturers. Andrew Rae with Statuesque Miniatures being an excellent example.
If there is scale creep (and there obviously is), I'd be willing to bet money it was done on purpose.
Anyway, We had 33 people at the Dire States Baltimore Brawl Infinity tournament this Saturday. An excellent event, and A good time had by all Now as I understand it, there is going to be one in Houston and one in Orlando. The Dire States ( a take on Dire Foes) seem to be developing into a Grand Tournament circuit for Infinity. The first was in Texas.
I'll post some photos of the tables soon, so watch the community showcase thread for a heads up when that happens.
Anyway, We had 33 people at the Dire States Baltimore Brawl Infinity tournament this Saturday. An excellent event, and A good time had by all Now as I understand it, there is going to be one in Houston and one in Orlando. The Dire States ( a take on Dire Foes) seem to be developing into a Grand Tournament circuit for Infinity. The first was in Texas.
I'll post some photos of the tables soon, so watch the community showcase thread for a heads up when that happens.
Sweet! Looking forward to seeing what you guys put together. All the better if some armies are showcased too. Do you guys have a results posting anywhere?
As for a US grand tourney kind of circuit, that would be rad. Go man go!
Ah, I wouldn't put a terrible lot of stock in that. The metal material that he says they are using would require a larger size figure to look decent, but I'm not sure it could ever produce the same kinds of results that resins do. Last time i read anything about metal sintered prints, they were still kinda grainy in addition to having a less fine resolution. If they are using that metal material, then they really need to rethink their process.
Not sure how that thread is a train wreck, not everyone is agreeing but most people are making their points pretty coherently.
The difference between my Haqq starter Janissary and any of the O:I HI is pretty dramatic, but at least that's an 'old' model.
Having new Wildcats dwarfed by Alguaciles just seems shortsighted.
Ah, I wouldn't put a terrible lot of stock in that. The metal material that he says they are using would require a larger size figure to look decent, but I'm not sure it could ever produce the same kinds of results that resins do. Last time i read anything about metal sintered prints, they were still kinda grainy in addition to having a less fine resolution. If they are using that metal material, then they really need to rethink their process.
That thread is a train wreck...
Thanks for the link.
~Eric
Yeah... I've found that it's best to stick to certain, limited sections of the official forum. Personally, I almost never stray from the artistic subforums, like Miniatures and Arcologies.
Back to the topic of scale, it doesn't bother me too much, for now. I'm fine with the new, slightly larger size of the figures, as long as it stays consistent. As exacting as CB is about their miniature lines, I can't imagine that we'll end up with half of the lines approaching 40mm in a few years. Almost all of the recent releases have been spectacular, (barring some personal preferences) so if everything stays consistently scaled from now on, I'm sold.
Well, I say someone made more powerful and larger by say the Dog soldiers transformations or the super soldier programs should look the part with the 28mm for the more common man, and everyday person.
Also the total proportions are better than we see with GW which makes a 28mm man with 1/35 scale head and hands for their clown like over sized chunky weapons. sorry, but a las rifle is almost as big as a 1/35th scale squad heavy MG!
That new biker is a mountain of a man compared to regular Ghulam troopers.
Most miniature producers use jewelry grade wax or resin printers, not metal.
Digital sculpting, and printing, is something that will make it much easier to keep large lines of miniatures in scale with each other. And if any sculpts come in off scale, they can be much more easily modified as needed.
Scale creep or whatever it is aside, my real concern is why Corvus choose silent treatment over officially addressing community concerns. If they popped their heads out about now and said, 'Hey folk, we hear what you are saying about scale and we would like to clarify that this is an intentional move to a slightly larger and occasionally less realistic scale but we have a plan and all the models will match up eventually.' Then I believe almost everyone would say 'fair play' and move on knowing that it's under control. Equally if they said, 'Bare with us, we've seen what you're talking about and are discussing how to address this.' Then at least people wouldn't be sitting in limbo over what's happening.
I hate it when companies turtle up on the fans. Alienating.
It's definitely a matter of personal taste. One of the biggest appeals of the game are the top-notch models. We're all talking about aesthetics here,
Except for some people talking about base contact with terrain. Those people are silly and must have curmudgeonly opponents that refuse to take declaration of intent.
ski2060 wrote: With the introduction of Silhouette markers for every type of game mini in Infinity, what does the scale matter other than for personal taste?
All mechanics disputes for LOS and firing will be done with the new silhouette templates, not any part of the actual model.
Maybe they are making the miniatures slightly larger for better pop on the table, or make them easier to paint for the detail level?
Beat me to it: as near as I understand things, scale creep is only relevant to aesthetics at this point, yes? Personally I have always preferred the "magic cylinder" approach to LOS (at least, I think that is what they used to call it back when I started 40k), which is common to PP games as well.
That said, I do understand the importance of having factions hold together: perhaps that is what underlies things now, that they are bringing all sculpting in-house? Above it was alluded to that the earlier sculpts used a lot of freelancers?
Digital sculpting, and printing, is something that will make it much easier to keep large lines of miniatures in scale with each other. And if any sculpts come in off scale, they can be much more easily modified as needed.
Agree with this. I would view all of this as a kind of 'scale refinement' i.e. it's something that happens a lot with miniature lines when companies start out, an obvious one includes the GW ranges. I don't think you are going to see a continued growth of miniatures, but rather instead a marked difference between the early generation stuff and what has come out in the last year or so (and will continue to come out).
But I think it's going to be something noticeable when lining up size comparison shots (and if the units ever melee with each other - haha! ), I don't think we are going to have had manga-gundam proportioned 40mm tall miniatures with 70mm guns in 5 years time..
For what it's worth, CB talked about the change in scale at the Interplanetary earlier this year, saying that it's an intentional increase in size and an increase in distinction between the parts of a model, so for example kneepads are getting a deeper crease where they join the fabric of the trousers etc.
The printed masters are indeed resin, and size isn't an issue, the same technique is used for 15mm and even 6mm models.
Gun size is a different thing again, apparently for the CAD models they resize them for aesthetic reasons. Not a fan of the idea, but it's definitely a conscious decision on their part.
EDIT - I forgot to say that in the seminar at the Interplanetary CB also said that they now have a specific set of 3D dollies that all the new sculpts are compared to for scale purposes, to keep the sizes more consistent going forwards.
Thank you IJW. Much of that I hadn't heard and a little I had but had forgotten. All in, I should retract 80% of my feelings in my last post about their lack of communication. I wish there was a place where this sort of information was gathered and easily searchable.
IJW wrote: For what it's worth, CB talked about the change in scale at the Interplanetary earlier this year, saying that it's an intentional increase in size and an increase in distinction between the parts of a model, so for example kneepads are getting a deeper crease where they join the fabric of the trousers etc.
The printed masters are indeed resin, and size isn't an issue, the same technique is used for 15mm and even 6mm models.
Gun size is a different thing again, apparently for the CAD models they resize them for aesthetic reasons. Not a fan of the idea, but it's definitely a conscious decision on their part.
EDIT - I forgot to say that in the seminar at the Interplanetary CB also said that they now have a specific set of 3D dollies that all the new sculpts are compared to for scale purposes, to keep the sizes more consistent going forwards.
All of that makes sense except purposefully resizing the weapons. That seems like a silly choice for such an aesthetically conscious company. It's very much contradictory to everything else they are doing to maintain consistency.
All of that makes sense except purposefully resizing the weapons. That seems like a silly choice for such an aesthetically conscious company. It's very much contradictory to everything else they are doing to maintain consistency.
~Eric
Not really, they are consciously changing their aesthetics from their original manga style to a more "occidental" type of look. Making the weapons bigger is consistent with this new aesthetic (and so is making the miniature themselves bigger).
Not really, they are consciously changing their aesthetics from their original manga style to a more "occidental" type of look. Making the weapons bigger is consistent with this new aesthetic (and so is making the miniature themselves bigger).
But changing to a more westernized style shouldn't involve having two differently sized instances of the same weapon in the miniatures line. And that is really what I was referring to. However, I admit to only peripherally following that issue and they may already be correcting that as well.
Taarnak wrote: All of that makes sense except purposefully resizing the weapons.
Like I said, I don't like the idea myself, I'm just pointing out that it's intentional and not (as some have suggested on other forums) incompetence/accident on the part of the sculptors.
@IJW, Don't you think that that 'news blog' is sparse at best? It doesn't serve the purpose I feel we are lacking.
Also do we have an idea of when they started this scale up? I was very confused to find that the Vanguard from the Morat Starter being substantially smaller than the Vanguard from the box set.
And surprisingly I'm not overly impressed with either set but that's for another thread, I think I'll review them on my blog if there is interest.
All of that makes sense except purposefully resizing the weapons. That seems like a silly choice for such an aesthetically conscious company. It's very much contradictory to everything else they are doing to maintain consistency.
~Eric
Actually this happened because CB is such aesthetically conscious company, the resized weapons look harmoniously better on each sculpt individually, examples of the old unified sized weapons are the stock of comments about huge weapons on female models.
CB has tried every aspect of realism and artistic combination there is, I believe this is the ideal mix and from what I heard they intent to stick to this approach which will bring a more unified look on the range and be more user friendly.
I still think people are completely ignoring how most infinity models were large with large weapons and then they got noticeably smaller. Suddenly, with digital printing things get very slightly larger and there are complaints?
Compare:
New Djanbazan amongst old ones. Yes, this is female and she's obviously going to be smaller. However, regardless of height and gender, people tend to have similarly sized heads. There is a whole scale of difference here.
Spoiler:
The Nomads went through an even more insane scale change of their weapons and models. Check out the Reverand Moiras.
Spoiler:
And in the end, we come to today where people complain about the difference between these two guys' weapons:
Scale changes have existed in this line ever since they began resculpting figures. Compare the old Zhanshis to the current ones. Or the old Kazaks to the current ones. The old ones are actually a lot bigger and chunkier than the current ones. This is nothing new.
The original Djanzabans were mutant-huge, and the Haqq HMGs looked like weird comic book pipes. So far, positive change. Same with the giant rifles, and their laptop-sized ammo magazines (which are extra blatant on the older Ariadna models).
The original Rev. Moiras should never be used as an argument against better scaling. The HMG looked terrible, and resembled a woman caber tossing a gun-shaped boulder.
Plus, I wasn't super thrilled at the realistic scale that came out for the Riot Grrl's combi rifles, or the Vortex's tiny gun. They're cutting something in between to make individual models look good, which I'm fine with.
Plus, for every 'HUGE' old model (Djanzaban, BeefyFusiliers, etc) you got a tiny old model (Interventors come especially to mind).
A different paint scheme of the Hazmat, on the AG Facebook page. Prefer the orange but she still looks like a beaut (now waiting for a comment on 'ass-size creep', and zoomed in comparison shots of the miniature and the bottoms of 1st generation Infinity minis )
You have seen the comis strip about the BS fiday? It is the first gen mini in the photo. The VIP is the most recent. Judge for yourself.
And for real news: Looks like we are getting a preview of the CA starter soon enough...
Angel is apparently painting a Grot tank too. Will we be getting vehicles in N3? Oh noes.
No, we won't. I was kidding. The CA preview is it for the month too. Next month, however, EEEENTHREEEE! Rejoice, for it is less than 1 month away. At least in Europe. :(
Sorry that this isn't really news but I wanted to share this image I saw on facebook. No idea how accurate or inaccurate it is and certainly seems intentionally inflammatory.
Is there really that much of a difference between US and EU terrain boards? If so do you think 3rd edition will come with terrain guidelines in the rulebook?
Alph if you think this is too off topic just say and I will delete the post and move it to the Infinity sub forum I asked here because I was asking if anyone knows if their will be terrain and layout guides in the new rule books but I understand if this is considered off topic.
It's not my call but I'd say that your post is on topic for this thread. I bet the replies won't be for long though.
While it would be nice to see some terrain density clarifications and 'rules' in N3, I wonder if this would just be better left to the players or TO to decide. If I was writing N3 I'd be stripping out unnecessaries rather than bulking else anything out.
Carlos came out on The Krug podcast with some info about terrain. CB will be setting terrain and buildings with class designations (A1-4, B1-3 etc).
N3 will have guidelines for how many of each class of building they suggest to use for a good game (in their vision).
These classes will also give Armor and Structure values, so that buildings will be able to be breached in non-standard (door) areas. You will not be able to shoot into or out of breaches though, so they will only provide new access points.
As to the post above: Seems like someone over the pond got bent out of shape over recent scuttlebutt about the differences in terrain setup between the continental metas. Meh.
I was always under the impression that the terrain was meant to be a big player in the Infinity game, and that the "Euro Style" mentioned would be pretty lame, with large shooting paths.
I would prefer the midway point between the two styles presented in that image.
That's kind of a dumb post, with 'high density' vs 'low density' boards. Most of the most commonly complained about issues (bad or useless weapons, rambo rampages, lack of any value in close combat, overwhelming power of AD/Infiltration troopers) are magnified far moreso on sparser populated maps.
Meanwhile, maps with confined spaces greatly increase the value of maneuver and reactiveness in scenarios by limiting mobility, and decrease the overwhelming value of heavy weapons vs rifles.
We use something in between. I don't understand the side remarks, in my experience denser tables are heaven for warbands, hyper mobile units (climbing plus and super jump) and infiltrators.
Less dense tables create multiple lines for AD/HMG to run in and dominate. Theoretically you can take a unit and have an ARO shot but it's more likely a player will concentrate on creating multiple ARO in a specific area and hope he's prepared enough for any fast HMG/Spitfire rush.
Yeah, I'm not seeing how the bottom table density requires less thinking as suggested. Different thinking, sure, but not less.
The mention about the Sniper ARO being useless on the bottom table is outright absurd. That example has some very open lanes(I count at least 3 that even go directly from edge to edge) and plenty of places to set up a Sniper ARO, just no single dominating position for one.
The terms are "Spanish style" and "International style", not EU and USA. The "Spanish Style" is what you see at tournaments in Spain because, according to at least one Spanish player, they don't have enough terrain at the tournaments. Apparently, many Spaniards use pretty much the same density as in the International style when they can. Something readily verified by going through the terrain threads on the Spanish Infinity forum if you want. http://infinitytheforums.com/foro/index.php?/forum/25-arcolog%C3%ADas/ Poke around.
carlos13th wrote: Sorry that this isn't really news but I wanted to share this image I saw on facebook. No idea how accurate or inaccurate it is and certainly seems intentionally inflammatory.
Is there really that much of a difference between US and EU terrain boards? If so do you think 3rd edition will come with terrain guidelines in the rulebook?
Alph if you think this is too off topic just say and I will delete the post and move it to the Infinity sub forum I asked here because I was asking if anyone knows if their will be terrain and layout guides in the new rule books but I understand if this is considered off topic.
Being from the US, I can say my meta is in no way that representative of it. Most of our boards for our games are midway . Had a good chuckle though.
Killionaire wrote: That's kind of a dumb post, with 'high density' vs 'low density' boards. Most of the most commonly complained about issues (bad or useless weapons, rambo rampages, lack of any value in close combat, overwhelming power of AD/Infiltration troopers) are magnified far moreso on sparser populated maps.
Meanwhile, maps with confined spaces greatly increase the value of maneuver and reactiveness in scenarios by limiting mobility, and decrease the overwhelming value of heavy weapons vs rifles.
Meanwhile denser boards still have bad weapon ranges, rambo rampages, but CC becomes a lot more powerful and AD units become almost useless.
On denser boards, long range weapons have their usefulness drastically reduced. Why take a sniper rifle if it's never going to get line of sight in its optimal band? And while HMG units might not be massive rambo threats, then you have things like Fidays and Speculo killers, template warbands, etc that can wipe out a combat group in a turn due to being able to play off better total cover angles. The units ramboing just swap from long ranged to close ranged.
CC units on a dense board suddenly have a much better chance to get into CC. Achilles on a more open board needs to still work for his CC kills. On a dense board he just waeves his way through and murders everything. AD units are starved for decent landing areas and end up walking on.
Infinity needs a balance. It needs fire lanes that run the length of the table, but also ways around them. It needs sniper perches, but also objectives with approaches they can't see. It needs cover, both total and partial, but not so much that certain weapons become useless. It needs multiple landing zones for AD units, but ways to watch them.
Guys come on, please don't take that terrain density image post seriously, it was obviously meant as a joke/piss take.
Although if it means anything my board is probably much closer to the second one (they always say the UK is closer to the US culturally than the rest of Europe, that could be why )
Its obvious troll but I rly hope for CB steping in and giving some suggestions or guide lines on how dense terrain should be.
This is shot taken on Poland Team Championship and we usualy play on more dense board.
Tbh you cannot go "desert" or "super-urban-jungle" all the time, or you break the balance and make some units OP or near useless.
Actually terrain density and how it should affect LOF was heavily discussed, as was how models should interact with terrain to get cover (also it did seem that US players used heavier terrain, but also harsher rules about claiming cover in their tournaments than the rest of players from other countries) but never saw it been critiqued, more as a fascinating exchange of experience and ideas about gameplay.
Honestly, CB is throwing everything but the kitchen sink to please the US, however they've always been more soft or rather reserved with their guidelines. They have their own view and most of their feedback appears to come from Spanish gameplay. We'll see what they plan to do with N3 and new ITS that supposedly also contains classified buildings.
I hope CB sticks to a more realistic scale for their figures, but that also includes the weapons for those miniatures. A majority of the rifles for Ariadna are way too big, as well as the SAW style HMG and other guns. Strangely enough, the Briscard Heavy Rocket Launcher looks way too small.
I am modifying my own miniatures with guns from the Statuesque Miniatures line of weapons, because they fit to scale a lot better than the CB ones, whilst retaining the aesthetic I like.
Hasslefree do some nice in-scale weapons too. I haven't found anyone that does sci-fi weapons (thinking the clean lines of Mass Effect etc.) that look right though.
Pacific wrote: Guys come on, please don't take that terrain density image post seriously, it was obviously meant as a joke/piss take.
Although if it means anything my board is probably much closer to the second one (they always say the UK is closer to the US culturally than the rest of Europe, that could be why )
I realise that it's a clearly a joke but their is truth behind it in that non Spain tend to have denser boards than Spain from what I have read. Was just asking if anyone knows if infinity have any official position or guidelines on terrain density.
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Alpharius wrote: That type of 'joke' isn't something a company should EVER 'officially' get behind.
I find it more insulting than funny, and seeing as the USA is one of the biggest potential growth areas...the whole thing is rather shortsighted.
Maybe it's because I'm not American but even if it was about the uk I would find it hard to be insulted by something as silly as that picture.
As an American, I find the American reputation for humorless frothing pretty accurate. So the text part they wrote there is really funny.
What's missing from the joke/example is -why- we generally have dense boards: it's a simulationist approach and we like stuff that looks real. Maybe that's due to something else peculiarly American that desires realism, maybe it's just a wideapread miscommunication that took hold because we didn't get to see many examples of Spanish tables.
It also might be a reaction to the other terrain-sparse games that have been popular hereabouts: after the ridiculous bareness of Warmachine tables or mostly symbolic stuff on most 40K boards, a well-modeled urban setup for Infinity is most refreshing and one can easily end up making it look as dense as a middleeastern slum.
You should see the terrain at Card Kingdom here in Seattle: it's so good and realistic, that one really has to restrain oneself from choking the table up. We've actually gotten rid of an entire amazing urban terrain set because it was -too- complex, with lots of modeled interiors with walkways, elevators, etc.
The game still plays well on such terrain, the balance of power is just slightly different. Given the need to cost units fairly according to power it makes sense to have a default terrain density/type: but veering out of that range on purpose, for fun, sometimes will still be enjoyable.
.Mikes. wrote: Guys, I hate to be that guy, but this isn't news or a rumour. If anyone wants to complain about national stereotypes can they create another thread?
...In another forum.
The dead-line for pre-orders for N3 is tomorrow. A friendly reminder-- to myself. I've been waiting for the Miniature Market to list the HMG Janissary. Ah well, I'll get him next order.
Oh crap that's a thing huh? Tomorrow or something? No way, not trying to spend money now, I guess I'll just have to get it later and live vicariously through you guys.
I pretty much don't get to play given toddler and local nerd density (or lack thereof), I mostly want the neat fluff and photos to inspire future painting. Not a real loss, will pick it up at retail eventually.
Was mostly just surprised at how fast the deadline hit, quick year.
Not entirely news, but a question on newish things...
Do we know if the new Sun Tze w/ boarding shotty will be linkable with Zuyong Invincibles?
Obviously they share the same armor model. A boarding shotgun means he's meant to get in close & you'd likely want a link team to protect such a valuable Lieutenant choice.
Then again Saladin, who is the most similar to Sun Tze ( I guess), is not linkable.
Do we know if the new Sun Tze w/ boarding shotty will be linkable with Zuyong Invincibles?
Obviously they share the same armor model. A boarding shotgun means he's meant to get in close & you'd likely want a link team to protect such a valuable Lieutenant choice.
Then again Saladin, who is the most similar to Sun Tze ( I guess), is not linkable.
Any official word on this? What do you think?
How on Earth could anyone have info about something that belongs to the next book (remember, 1.5 to 2 years)? personally I doubt it, and how could Saladin be linkable if he is not in any sectorial?
The Zuyong profile will be out soon, apparently. It's profile will probably be too, since CB releases those as they release the minis.
The list of linkables will presumably also be updated for N3, along with the rest of the rules. Stands to reason that Sun Tzu's link ability might be updated with it, along with the already-released Zyong.
All that said, I highly doubt El Jefe Tzu will be linkable. His profile is too unique. Unless ISS extends their trend of allowing special leader units to link with specific grunts, which is possible, but probably only a bit. We're not Steel Phalanx, sadly.
We already have the ZuYong profile though, it has been in the army builder and new unit update PDF for a while now. And we've even seen the N3 profile (though not all the options for it).
It would also be kind of weird if Sun Tze were linkable considering the ZuYong are not an ISS unit, and it is unlikely that Sun Tze will be available outside of that sectorial (though there is an outside chance of that at least).
Either way, the ZuYong wont be linkable in anything until the Invincible Army sectorial is released, and that isn't occurring until at least Acheron Falls. So 1-2 years off (give or take a few months; I seem to remember 2nd Edition Infinity being followed relatively closely by Human Sphere. Though it was a much smaller leap in terms of changes).
I remember hearing somewhere that when they redid Sun Tze, they really liked his armour and used it as a basis for the Zu Yong so you could say the Zu Yong are wearing Sun Tze armour
Kanluwen wrote: Considering the "new" Sun Tze is wearing Zu Yong armor, I would be surprised not to see him in the Invincible Army Sectorial.
Here are some facts.
When Carlos presented the updated unit logos for Yu Jing, Sun Tze was listed as State, rather than Imperial service. This means he may appear in multiple sectorials.
That said, sharing a mannequin with the Zu Yong is pretty weak grounds to speculate, if you look at the feet of both Raidens, they share the same mannequin. His suit is far superior to Zu Yong armour, having +2 ARM and one increment better BTS. He also has higher PH, although I haven't figured out how much armour factors into that. Their armour designs share the same arms and legs, however Sun Tze has a solid smooth breastplate and a more refined back unit with longer antennae, whereas the Zu Yong appears to only have sternum plating and what looks like a ballistics vest.
Hope the next reveal for this month is the Hac Tao Hack, but I suspect it will be the CA starter.
Sorry for derailing the thread , but thought people might like to know miniaturemarket.com deal of the day is on infinity. Just ordered a set for myself.
http://www.miniaturemarket.com/cvb280467-0477.html Infinity: Haqqislam - Ghazi Muttawi'ah Unit Box (4)
Their normal price from MM is 40.99, on sale for $18.00
Plus they just got a restock in
I don't work for them, I just live within 2miles of them, it's why I'm broke ALWAYS
Theophony wrote: Sorry for derailing the thread , but thought people might like to know miniaturemarket.com deal of the day is on infinity. Just ordered a set for myself.
http://www.miniaturemarket.com/cvb280467-0477.html Infinity: Haqqislam - Ghazi Muttawi'ah Unit Box (4)
Their normal price from MM is 40.99, on sale for $18.00
Plus they just got a restock in
I don't work for them, I just live within 2miles of them, it's why I'm broke ALWAYS
I'm not a huge fan of all those horns. Still, this looks so much better than Toha flat horn like thingies. If I ever decide to pick 2nd force, I will probably choose those guys...
I am sure glad that I have the old combined minis, because I hate the new stuff. I understand that the new ones are more dynamic and have better detail. However, I just hate the new aesthetic.
Art. 
Possibly some non-sexy non-anime looking nomads? 
Shock 
