I'll be rocking the assault cannon+heavy bolter loadout.

Vs t4 3+ save models (like scat-bikes), the Baal will do around 5.5 wounds before saves, with a 50% chance that one of those wounds will deny armor. So that equates to 2 dead bikes or marines, with every other Baal pred killing an additional model due to the probability of rending. The Baals also pose the question to your target of whether or not they want to jink. If they do, and you dont rend, they now snap fire for no reason. If they don't, and you DO rend, a guy just got aced out of nowhere.

Vs av10 vehicles, the Baal will average about 2-3 glances or pens, with odds favoring 3. Vs av11, this goes down to around 2. Still pretty good odds.

The platform still has its weaknesses, such as awful side armor and short range, and I'm not attempting to go against common opinion just yet, but it's definitely worth taking another look at.

If you wanna run the Assault canons on Baal, would it be reasonable to just run 2 landspeeders with them instead? You'd get two asscans and two heavy bolters for I think 160. I may be wrong on that, I don't have my book in front of me, but in any case do you feel like the heavier armor on the baal would be a better delivery method?

I ask because I thought about running triple asscans on my speeders just a little while back, but was mainly concerned by the 24in range. In the end I went with my typhoons, but its all magnetized if it ends up being better to maybe run a squadron of em some other way, maybe as baal backup. Could see stacking alot of shots, just very expensive at that point.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The Exterminatus formations are only in the book. There is really no other legal way to acquire them.

Photocopies of the relevant pages.

Martel732 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The Exterminatus formations are only in the book. There is really no other legal way to acquire them.

Photocopies of the relevant pages.

Grey area of copyright law. I wouldn't risk it. $66 is better than whatever legal penalty you could end up paying.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The Exterminatus formations are only in the book. There is really no other legal way to acquire them.

Photocopies of the relevant pages.

Grey area of copyright law. I wouldn't risk it. $66 is better than whatever legal penalty you could end up paying.

Legal penalty? Okay.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
If people stop playing people playing Eldar

You don't get how tournaments work, do you?

Martel732 wrote:
There were Eldar players tabling BA players even in 5th with 9 X scatter walker lists.

Cool. And I've seen Screamer-star in its 6th edition hayday get tabled by Dark Angels- that doesn't mean Dark Angels weren't firmly less competitive than Daemons. No one cares about your anecdotes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Phyrekzhogos wrote:
If you wanna run the Assault canons on Baal, would it be reasonable to just run 2 landspeeders with them instead? You'd get two asscans and two heavy bolters for I think 160. I may be wrong on that, I don't have my book in front of me, but in any case do you feel like the heavier armor on the baal would be a better delivery method?

I ask because I thought about running triple asscans on my speeders just a little while back, but was mainly concerned by the 24in range. In the end I went with my typhoons, but its all magnetized if it ends up being better to maybe run a squadron of em some other way, maybe as baal backup. Could see stacking alot of shots, just very expensive at that point.

Against Eldar I'd probably stick with the Baals. AV10 means that the landspeeders will get maybe a turn to do something and then get wiped off the board, jinking or otherwise.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
If people stop playing people playing Eldar

You don't get how tournaments work, do you?

I do, but most of my competitive hobby tournaments have been played using games that actually give a damn about balance and make a conscious effort to correct glaringly overpowered things. Take M:tG for example. At many points in the game's history, there were several cards that were overpowered. What did WotC do? They banned said cards or severely limited their use. What does Games Workshop do? Why, they deliver a much unneeded buff to said types of things. Anyway, like I said, I don't ever play against Eldar as of right now, and probably never will. There are other armies out there to play against that aren't stupidly broken. I do take issue with the idea that the only reason to play competitive is for tournaments. Everyone I play with fields very potent versions of their particular armies. My brothers(read: the donkey-caves that got me hooked on this game ) and my friends expect nothing less. Why play against someone that isn't trying their best? How is any game against said individual at all satisfying?

"Cool. And I've seen Screamer-star in its 6th edition hayday get tabled by Dark Angels- that doesn't mean Dark Angels weren't firmly less competitive than Daemons. No one cares about your anecdotes. "

Eldar were not nearly as bad in 5th as DA are now. It happened way too many time to be anecdote. The Eldar were just pigeon holed into very, very specific lists. They couldn't randomly take things from their codex and get a good army like they can now. DA don't even have that currently.

It all starts and ends with the scatterlaser. They were broken even back at BS3. Especially when a power list like SW from 5th advantages were mostly in HTH. If you planned on shooting them all to death, it made them more manageable. Basically, the Eldar players of the day were already playing 6th, they just didn't know it and didn't have the codex yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 th3maninblak wrote:
I'll be rocking the assault cannon+heavy bolter loadout.

Vs t4 3+ save models (like scat-bikes), the Baal will do around 5.5 wounds before saves, with a 50% chance that one of those wounds will deny armor. So that equates to 2 dead bikes or marines, with every other Baal pred killing an additional model due to the probability of rending. The Baals also pose the question to your target of whether or not they want to jink. If they do, and you dont rend, they now snap fire for no reason. If they don't, and you DO rend, a guy just got aced out of nowhere.

Vs av10 vehicles, the Baal will average about 2-3 glances or pens, with odds favoring 3. Vs av11, this goes down to around 2. Still pretty good odds.

The platform still has its weaknesses, such as awful side armor and short range, and I'm not attempting to go against common opinion just yet, but it's definitely worth taking another look at.

If you can find a way to get it to fire 3-4 times in a game, it's worth it. But that's the really hard part.

If one had to choose, would you run some Gravbikes (5 bikes, Combi-Grav Sergeant and 2x Gravgun Bikers) or MeltAssault (5 ASM, Combi-Melta Sergeant and 2x Meltagun marines). Gravbikes is more expensive, and but can lay down some serious hurt on big stuff. Melta is like 40 pts cheaper, but it either comes packaged with Jump Packs or a Drop Pod, so it isn't that mobile once it hits the ground.

Why not both?

I've been toying with a Dante list for a while with 5x grav bikes and 2x5 assault marines with 2 melta+combi melta, retaining jump packs. The ASM units come in reliably on turn 2, scattering an average of 3 inches. Laser accurate melta has been pretty awesome, IMO.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Why not both?

I've been toying with a Dante list for a while with 5x grav bikes and 2x5 assault marines with 2 melta+combi melta, retaining jump packs. The ASM units come in reliably on turn 2, scattering an average of 3 inches. Laser accurate melta has been pretty awesome, IMO.

I dunno, I am kinda looking for a good reason to get bikes. I would be better off putting them in my Crimson Fists, though. Since I am going to run Dante in my 2000 pt army, ASM might be the better choice. My fear is that they will just get shot up before they get any thing done. Still, one turn of three Melta shots is nothing to sniff at. I run a 3x Melta Command Squad too, though.

After playing them 6-7 games it's a mixed bag. Nighfighting and jinking vehicles does reduce turn 1 thing quite much. It's awesome vs. Land Raiders (but who takes them?) solid vs orks transport heavy and armies with fast moving assault will force you to drop them in your own DZ or in the middle. I really prefer the single MM bikes, easy to hide and decent threat range.

I am hoping that the Space Marines Decurion analogue is somehow compatible with Blood Angels. Not counting on it, but it would be cool to take tank squadrons and whatnot.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am hoping that the Space Marines Decurion analogue is somehow compatible with Blood Angels. Not counting on it, but it would be cool to take tank squadrons and whatnot.

Safe to say there is pretty much zero chance of that happening in the way you want it to.

See the designer note for the command tanks profile thats floating around, looks like BA can take that unit. Might hint at units/formations that can be taken by all space marines.

 Carnage43 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am hoping that the Space Marines Decurion analogue is somehow compatible with Blood Angels. Not counting on it, but it would be cool to take tank squadrons and whatnot.

Safe to say there is pretty much zero chance of that happening in the way you want it to.

This is true, still no harm in planning for the worst and hoping for the best.

D

 Carnage43 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am hoping that the Space Marines Decurion analogue is somehow compatible with Blood Angels. Not counting on it, but it would be cool to take tank squadrons and whatnot.

Safe to say there is pretty much zero chance of that happening in the way you want it to.

We more than likely won't see anything, but one can hope. I would be happy if they released rules in WD as well.

Maybe it's just my local meta with its abundance of razorbacks, raiders, and bikes of all kinds, but my baal predators have been the MVPs of every game I've run them in for a couple weeks. If your meta looks anything like mine, give them a try.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Maybe it's just my local meta with its abundance of razorbacks, raiders, and bikes of all kinds, but my baal predators have been the MVPs of every game I've run them in for a couple weeks. If your meta looks anything like mine, give them a try.

Eh, I have Tyranids, DA, IG, Orks, and a few others. Still gonna give the Baal Pred a shot, see where it gets me.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Maybe it's just my local meta with its abundance of razorbacks, raiders, and bikes of all kinds, but my baal predators have been the MVPs of every game I've run them in for a couple weeks. If your meta looks anything like mine, give them a try.

You're running multiples? Think I recall you said you went Assault canons/heavy bolters?

I have been running 2 Baal Preds, both with assault cannon and heavy bolters. The best they did in a game was drop 5 razorbacks by turn 3. Definitely put me in a good spot to let my death co clean up the stranded squads that were riding inside

No competitive BA army should come without a fragioso. For the points, its just to good to pass up!

 raiden wrote:
No competitive BA army should come without a fragioso. For the points, its just to good to pass up!

Fragioso with HF in a pod with some Turn One squad roasting. Yes please!

Hi lads & ladies, just popping in to ask a quick question regarding your codex. As a mechanized force, how does it fare in comparison to say, Raven Guard who get scout on their transports?

The reason I ask, is because I own an Iron Warriors army built in early 4th ed, and am looking for a SM codex to represent it as the CSM marines themselves are the worst going by all accounts! I have it down to roughly mech (Raven Guard or BA) or podders (Space Wolves) . I'd like to go mech if possible, as the Rhinos can be used for CSM if they ever get a decent codex!

Raven Guard vs BA seems to come down to scout & cheaper Rhino vs faster vehicles & better assault. Assuming RG chapter tactics stay roughly the same. Also, I was thinking a way to get the most from BA tactical/assault marines in Rhinos might be to run them as a Baal strike force detachment and bring a company of the great wolf detachment to basically import in space wolf battle guard leaders & Iron priests to attach to BA squads. You lose the ability to combat squad if your fitting in a character to a squad in a rhino, but the space wolves IC's confer counter attack & seem pretty reasonably cheap for their combat prowess.

If the above is complete Gak, let me know, as i'm trying to get my head around how to use my painted marines who look a bit sad on the shelf.

It appears Raven Guard lost scout with the new codex.

Space Marine vehicles on the whole are pretty poor.
Drop Pods win over Rhinos as they're better at getting your cargo where they need too, and are more flexible with what they can transport

 raiden wrote:
No competitive BA army should come without a fragioso. For the points, its just to good to pass up!

Furioso's (all types) are pretty poor. Even with the Frag Cannon their damage output isn't that great, and they tend to die the turn after they step out of the Pod.

Bartali wrote:
It appears Raven Guard lost scout with the new codex.

Space Marine vehicles on the whole are pretty poor.
Drop Pods win over Rhinos as they're better at getting your cargo where they need too, and are more flexible with what they can transport

 raiden wrote:
No competitive BA army should come without a fragioso. For the points, its just to good to pass up!

Furioso's (all types) are pretty poor. Even with the Frag Cannon their damage output isn't that great, and they tend to die the turn after they step out of the Pod.

Disagree. The only time the furioso alpha left me filling cheated was against a MC spam list, or a mech list. (Which even then, is why I bring frag Cannon/ MM) managed two wounds on a MC and blew up a razorback (after scattering of target of a predator...)

Well this is awkward...

Things that are now objectively better in the new marine dex: scouts, devastators, dreads of all kinds, and vanguard veterans. Looks like we need to work around that.

Not to mention their cheaper sternguard, better command squads, Chapter Masters, everything else... Wow SM got a ton of solid favors in the new rules. 5 point power weapons in Vanguard! Now basically the only thing we have on them is JP Death Company...

Our sternguard are the same price as theirs. And we still have some stuff over them. Cool pistols, fast tanks, death co, sanguinary guard, cheaper command squads (free upgrades), sanguinary priests, etc.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Our sternguard are the same price as theirs. And we still have some stuff over them. Cool pistols, fast tanks, death co, sanguinary guard, cheaper command squads (free upgrades), sanguinary priests, etc.

I will admit BA have more than just DC that marines dont, but it's sad seeing that they got a lot of price drops that we will not. A shame, since we just got updated so probably have 2 years with this dex. It isn't all bad though, and Flesh Tearers look cooler than Ultras!

Thanks for the replies, indeed, it seems Ravenguard lost their scout. I figured them or BA would make Rhinos the most viable choice.

I guess, White Scars take that biscuit now as they retain it with their chapter master.

Don't worry dark angels are going to get plasma weapons for 5pts now!

Am I the only one who'll be buying one or two Land Speeder Storms? They're an FA-choice in the new SM 'dex.

Am I the only one probably going back to Red Space Marines? There's practically no reason to play BA now. Good job, GW.

Martel732 wrote:
Am I the only one probably going back to Red Space Marines? There's practically no reason to play BA now. Good job, GW.

I will be keeping my Blood Angels as Blood Angels. I already have a C:SM army (that just got better), so I don't see why I would want another. My BA function completely different than my Crimson Fists.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Am I the only one probably going back to Red Space Marines? There's practically no reason to play BA now. Good job, GW.

I will be keeping my Blood Angels as Blood Angels. I already have a C:SM army (that just got better), so I don't see why I would want another. My BA function completely different than my Crimson Fists.

Can't be that different. They are both meq lists.

Martel732 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Am I the only one probably going back to Red Space Marines? There's practically no reason to play BA now. Good job, GW.

I will be keeping my Blood Angels as Blood Angels. I already have a C:SM army (that just got better), so I don't see why I would want another. My BA function completely different than my Crimson Fists.

Can't be that different. They are both meq lists.

One is assault heavy and all jump packs with a smattering of other stuff. My Crimson Fists are a mobile gunline.

Oh yeah. Terminators for C:SM are 175pts now... Another kick in the nuts for BA

 raiden wrote:
Oh yeah. Terminators for C:SM are 175pts now... Another kick in the nuts for BA

Perhaps we will be very lucky and a faq will adjust points costs for BA/SW probably not however.

Like we were ever going to play with tactical terminators anyways. Funny thing is, even with termies going down 25 points and vanguard vets getting 5 point power weapons, sanguinary guard are STILL more cost effective than either.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Like we were ever going to play with tactical terminators anyways. Funny thing is, even with termies going down 25 points and vanguard vets getting 5 point power weapons, sanguinary guard are STILL more cost effective than either.

very true.

But I would not mind our scouts being able to go to WS4 BS4 at 10ppm like c:sm

Oh i would love that, though our scouts were already better at the job we needed them for to begin with. 3 str5 init5 attacks on the charge is pretty awesome and perfect for our army. Just because we are a point of ws and bs behind doesn't mean our scouts are bad.

Martel732 wrote:
Am I the only one probably going back to Red Space Marines? There's practically no reason to play BA now. Good job, GW.

I'm done. I decided a week or two ago to change to a Salamander Successor (and occasional White Scar). Funny enough the final straw wasn't the week rules, it was one of the Black Library audio books; Herald of Sanguinius. I've put up with quite a bit of nonsense to be a Blood Angel, but between that and Sins of the Father and Virtue of the Sons. I've had enough. Sanguinius comes off as such a putz in the HH stories.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Am I the only one probably going back to Red Space Marines? There's practically no reason to play BA now. Good job, GW.

I'm done. I decided a week or two ago to change to a Salamander Successor (and occasional White Scar). Funny enough the final straw wasn't the week rules, it was one of the Black Library audio books; Herald of Sanguinius. I've put up with quite a bit of nonsense to be a Blood Angel, but between that and Sins of the Father and Virtue of the Sons. I've had enough. Sanguinius comes off as such a putz in the HH stories.

Remove your nipples for your lack of faith.

I wouldn't call it a lack of faith. It is more a revelation that Sanguinius isn't my guy anymore.

Blood angel is Codex : codex adeptus astartes so are Space marine..

Can we just use all 4 book to mix up in single detachment?

Harken unto me my brothers. Now are the dark times. The annoying times. Yea 'tis the age of Bloodmarines!

On a slightly less silly note, as a BAs player of 20 years I say that theres always a period between new BAs codexes where our army is really in the shade & out shined by the vanilla marines. For me its always been a situation where I took a base vanilla marines army with BAs allys. Take what you need from c:sm and what you want from the BAs. Ally in our best and/or fluffiest units to give you the flavor you want.

Actually, SM and BA ally really well. Stick an iron hands shield eternal master in a unit with a sanguinary priest and you have a dude with 2+/3++/4+++ 4w t5 and eternal warrior. That guy in a squad of sanguinary guard with dante and a priest and you've got a helluva death star. Furthermore, our scouts are still better on the charge than theirs, so allying in a couple land speeder storms seems awesome.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Actually, SM and BA ally really well. Stick an iron hands shield eternal master in a unit with a sanguinary priest and you have a dude with 2+/3++/4+++ 4w t5 and eternal warrior. That guy in a squad of sanguinary guard with dante and a priest and you've got a helluva death star. Furthermore, our scouts are still better on the charge than theirs, so allying in a couple land speeder storms seems awesome.

Technically, if you did that, the Iron Hands character would lose their Chapter Tactics benefit since they are attached to another Chapter's Squad.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Actually, SM and BA ally really well. Stick an iron hands shield eternal master in a unit with a sanguinary priest and you have a dude with 2+/3++/4+++ 4w t5 and eternal warrior. That guy in a squad of sanguinary guard with dante and a priest and you've got a helluva death star. Furthermore, our scouts are still better on the charge than theirs, so allying in a couple land speeder storms seems awesome.

Technically, if you did that, the Iron Hands character would lose their Chapter Tactics benefit since they are attached to another Chapter's Squad.

How? He has the chapter tactics rule.

 th3maninblak wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Actually, SM and BA ally really well. Stick an iron hands shield eternal master in a unit with a sanguinary priest and you have a dude with 2+/3++/4+++ 4w t5 and eternal warrior. That guy in a squad of sanguinary guard with dante and a priest and you've got a helluva death star. Furthermore, our scouts are still better on the charge than theirs, so allying in a couple land speeder storms seems awesome.

Technically, if you did that, the Iron Hands character would lose their Chapter Tactics benefit since they are attached to another Chapter's Squad.

How? He has the chapter tactics rule.

When an IC with the Chapter Tactics rule is attached to a squad from another Chapter, they lose the benefit of their Chapter Tactics.

BA don't bring enough to the table to even be an ally at this point, though. That's the problem.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Actually, SM and BA ally really well. Stick an iron hands shield eternal master in a unit with a sanguinary priest and you have a dude with 2+/3++/4+++ 4w t5 and eternal warrior. That guy in a squad of sanguinary guard with dante and a priest and you've got a helluva death star. Furthermore, our scouts are still better on the charge than theirs, so allying in a couple land speeder storms seems awesome.

Technically, if you did that, the Iron Hands character would lose their Chapter Tactics benefit since they are attached to another Chapter's Squad.

How? He has the chapter tactics rule.

When an IC with the Chapter Tactics rule is attached to a squad from another Chapter, they lose the benefit of their Chapter Tactics.

Technically BAs are not another chapter. In the rule, it defines it as being another unit with a different Chapter Tactic, which BA do not have. They are a different army, and do not have a Chapter Tactic, which is one of the weirdest RAW things that's happened recently. SM characters can attach to other codexes and be just fine.

Martel, i don't think i have ever actually heard you back up any n3gative comment you have ever said on any BA thread. It's like you pop in just to make a super morose statement that is entirely unsubstantiated and then leave.

Also the point about the iron hands master working with BA goves me the warm and fuzzies.

I'm trying not to belabor my points. In order to save time, let's focus on what exactly you think BA have to offer vanilla marines at this point, given that assault with non-beasts and non-MCs is very suboptimal in the current rules set.

BA give SM easy drop pods with little tax and FNP from the Sang Priest for FNP. That's about it =\

Does the Sanguinary Priest work for non-BA?

Martel732 wrote:
Does the Sanguinary Priest work for non-BA?

Narthecium doesn't care if you're a BA or not, only the +1 WS does.
And by raw currently, BA IC's don't negate chapter tactics of a sm unit because BA don't have the chapter tactics ability.

I'm gonna try to blindside some people at an ITC event next week with some "blood Templars," or "iron blood hands," depending on a couple rulings. I'm keeping my list under wraps but I'll be using a small BA CAD to "technically" still be a BA player. (Really silly flaw in their faction system, but oh well, dem's the rules.)

So I'm coming up on a promotion and a pretty substantial pay raise in the next month, and to celebrate I think I'm gonna build the Archangels Sanguine Wing formation. Trying to work it into a list though. Here's the first draft.

Baal Strike Force

HQ
-Sanguinary Priest
Warlord
Jump pack
Bolt pistol
Valour's Edge

-Sanguinary Priest
Angel's Wing
Bolt pistol
Power Sword

Elites
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist

-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist

-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist

Troops
-5x Scouts
CCWs
Combi melta

-5x Scouts
CCWs
Combi melta

Fast Attack
-5x Bikers
2x Grav
Combi grav

Archangels Sanguine Wing Formation

-10x Vanguard Veterans
Sgt with storm shield and lightning claw
3x storm shield and lightning claw
4x power sword
2x power axe
Jump packs

-10x Vanguard veterans
Sgt with storm shield and lightning claw
3x storm shield and lightning claw
4x power sword
2x power axe

-10x Sternguard veterans
5x combi melta
5x combi grav

-Stormraven
Hurricane bolters
Assault cannon
Multi melta

Comes to like 1847. Sanguinary priests deep strike in with the vanguard vets.

niv-mizzet wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Does the Sanguinary Priest work for non-BA?

Narthecium doesn't care if you're a BA or not, only the +1 WS does.
And by raw currently, BA IC's don't negate chapter tactics of a sm unit because BA don't have the chapter tactics ability.

I'm gonna try to blindside some people at an ITC event next week with some "blood Templars," or "iron blood hands," depending on a couple rulings. I'm keeping my list under wraps but I'll be using a small BA CAD to "technically" still be a BA player. (Really silly flaw in their faction system, but oh well, dem's the rules.)

But what do BA IC's do? Practically nothing compared to ICs of other armies. I guess they hand out FNP. So the BA are reduced to taxis for the Skitaari and FNP monkeys. I'll pass.

Space marine dreads going up to 4 attacks while Furioso's languish at 2 (I put frag cannons on mine) is really a downer. SM scouts going up to BS 4 hurts to. I can live without the bonus' for having 3 vehicles in a formation. I think the vanilla Land Speeder also dropped 5 points compared to BA.

On the positive end BA still have fast vehicles and the Flesh Tearer formations can get me 6 FA slots.

Those dread attacks are just killing me though. I would be static if Furioso's and Librarian Dreads went up to 4 base attacks. That would be big.

My BA were never built around assault, but rather shooting. I'll hold my cards close to the vest for now and hope an errata comes out that fixes Furioso attacks, Scout BS and the Speeder cost. We'll see.

Martel732 wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Does the Sanguinary Priest work for non-BA?

Narthecium doesn't care if you're a BA or not, only the +1 WS does.
And by raw currently, BA IC's don't negate chapter tactics of a sm unit because BA don't have the chapter tactics ability.

I'm gonna try to blindside some people at an ITC event next week with some "blood Templars," or "iron blood hands," depending on a couple rulings. I'm keeping my list under wraps but I'll be using a small BA CAD to "technically" still be a BA player. (Really silly flaw in their faction system, but oh well, dem's the rules.)

But what do BA IC's do? Practically nothing compared to ICs of other armies. I guess they hand out FNP. So the BA are reduced to taxis for the Skitaari and FNP monkeys. I'll pass.

Oh not much. The list would be stronger if I wanted to be pure marines, but I feel like its strong enough to give me the leeway needed to make the "subpar" option of having a small BA detachment so that I'm a BA player instead. Also veritas vitae for double strategic could help me out a bit.

I know it isn't official, but I just posted some errata for Blood Angels in Proposed Rules. Going to work on making some formations and altering other formations to work with them.

 th3maninblak wrote:
So I'm coming up on a promotion and a pretty substantial pay raise in the next month, and to celebrate I think I'm gonna build the Archangels Sanguine Wing formation. Trying to work it into a list though. Here's the first draft.

Baal Strike Force

HQ
-Sanguinary Priest
Warlord
Jump pack
Bolt pistol
Valour's Edge

-Sanguinary Priest
Angel's Wing
Bolt pistol
Power Sword

Elites
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist

-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist

-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist

Troops
-5x Scouts
CCWs
Combi melta

-5x Scouts
CCWs
Combi melta

Fast Attack
-5x Bikers
2x Grav
Combi grav

Archangels Sanguine Wing Formation

-10x Vanguard Veterans
Sgt with storm shield and lightning claw
3x storm shield and lightning claw
4x power sword
2x power axe
Jump packs

-10x Vanguard veterans
Sgt with storm shield and lightning claw
3x storm shield and lightning claw
4x power sword
2x power axe

-10x Sternguard veterans
5x combi melta
5x combi grav

-Stormraven
Hurricane bolters
Assault cannon
Multi melta

Comes to like 1847. Sanguinary priests deep strike in with the vanguard vets.

This might just be something I'd overlooked in regards to formations, but if you're using the BSF rules, shouldn't you only have access to 4 Elite FOC slots? The formations additions put you at 6. When you add a formation, does it ignore the original armies FOC?

They are two separate formations, as such you would be required to fill out the "mandatories" on both.

Its one of the things that makes formations great. The elites slot is super crowded in our book as is, but this formation combines extra elites slots with making vanguard vets competitive with the likes of Death Company and Sanguinary Guard. 22 points for a model with a jump pack and a power weapon? Yes please!

Also I am slowly becoming more and more convinced that Sanguinary Guard are one of the most efficient assault units in the game when combined with a priest. In a game vs chaos today i had dante, a priest and 5 SG kill no less than 1200 points worth of stuff.

I don't think Sang Guard rank that highly in the (admittedly small) list of marine assault units

Thunderwolf Cav are 45pts cheaper base, and with signifcant higher potential than Sang Guard if you spend points on them

Dreadknight with teleporter and hammer is the same cost as a squad of Sang Guard, you can spend more to get useful guns (H.Incinerator, H.Psycannon).

I'm sure I've missed a few out, but I'd rather have those over Sang Guard. TWC and NDK don't require you to use a HQ slot to make them survivable either.

Hi,I've returned to BA ,again for the third time's in 12 years, recently and I read all the discussion thru.
I personally dislike the drop pod army style and I prefer a more fluffy kind of army where Dante and sanguinary guards are an exception, not a rule.
I also love the new models and I pick my opponents, whenever I am in a tournament you can accept a defeat against unbalanced players list. Their loss not mine.
This said I'm building up an army where I sacrifice the jp in order to go a bit more mech style,still keeping the fast mobility so rappresentative of BA. Do you guys think this list would be still competive?

+++ Ba final (1850pts) +++

++ Blood Angels: Codex (2014) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++

+ (No Category) +

Relics and Detachment-rules
····Codex: Blood Angels [Baal Strike Force]

+ HQ +

Chaplain [Bolt Pistol, Crozius Arcanum]

Librarian (Terminator) [Psyker (ML2), Warlord]

+ Elites +

Death Company Dreadnought [Blood Talons, Magna-grapple, Meltagun and storm bolter]

Death Company Squad [7x Bolt Pistol, Bolter, 6x Chainsword, 10x Death Company Marine, Hand Flamer, Infernus Pistol, Power Fist, 2x Power Weapon, Thunder Hammer]

Terminator Assault Squad [Company Standard (replaces a Claw or Shield), 2x Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield, 2x Twin Lightning Claws]

+ Troops +

Tactical Squad [Heavy flamer, 4x Tactical Marine]
····Razorback [Twin Linked Assault Cannon]
····Tactical Sergeant [Boltgun, Chainsword]

Tactical Squad [Lascannon, 4x Tactical Marine]
····Razorback [Twin Linked Assault Cannon]
····Tactical Sergeant [Boltgun, Chainsword]

+ Fast Attack +

Assault Squad [4x Assault Marines, 2x Meltagun, Rhino]
····Assault Sergeant [Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Melta Bombs]

+ Heavy Support +

Stormraven Gunship [Twin Linked Lascannon, Twin-linked Multi-melta]

Stormraven Gunship [Twin Linked Assault Cannon, Twin-linked Multi-melta]

Vindicator [Overcharged engines]

I might change the vindicator for a predator multilascannon and add a combimelta losing a powerweapon in the DC,but I'm not experienced enough to take this decision.
Anyway,everything is magnetized so far ,so
DC+chaplain and Libby+termi goes in the SR btw

Bartali wrote:
I don't think Sang Guard rank that highly in the (admittedly small) list of marine assault units

Thunderwolf Cav are 45pts cheaper base, and with signifcant higher potential than Sang Guard if you spend points on them

Dreadknight with teleporter and hammer is the same cost as a squad of Sang Guard, you can spend more to get useful guns (H.Incinerator, H.Psycannon).

I'm sure I've missed a few out, but I'd rather have those over Sang Guard. TWC and NDK don't require you to use a HQ slot to make them survivable either.

Its not that big of a deal when that HQ slot only costs 75 points for feel no pain and +1ws. But i will agree that sanguinary guard are not that impressive on their own. They just get exponentially more powerful with every character you attach.

 th3maninblak wrote:

Bartali wrote:
I don't think Sang Guard rank that highly in the (admittedly small) list of marine assault units

Thunderwolf Cav are 45pts cheaper base, and with signifcant higher potential than Sang Guard if you spend points on them

Dreadknight with teleporter and hammer is the same cost as a squad of Sang Guard, you can spend more to get useful guns (H.Incinerator, H.Psycannon).

I'm sure I've missed a few out, but I'd rather have those over Sang Guard. TWC and NDK don't require you to use a HQ slot to make them survivable either.

Its not that big of a deal when that HQ slot only costs 75 points for feel no pain and +1ws. But i will agree that sanguinary guard are not that impressive on their own. They just get exponentially more powerful with every character you attach.

Not really. FNP is 33% less casualties against AP 2 S7 or less, but the increase against AP 3+ S7 or less only around a 7% increase in durability. Dante gives you S7 choppy, but SG already have access to AP 2.

Ap2 at I1, dante brings it at initiative 7 on the charge.

Man the new SM codex has left a bitter taste in my mouth...it's been approx 6 months since are update and already we're looking like the bottom of the pile of SM books.

So much stuff that they could've easily piloted in our book :
Dread squads (with extra attacks no less)
Tank squads
Cheaper termies
Better scout stats
Better tech marines
Grav devs

Really feel like we're the red-headed (red helmeted?) step child , I don't plan on running 'red marines', as I love the Blood Angels but dammit it's annoying...

D

I feel like dread and tank squads are a gimmick and not terribly useful. The dreads having extra attacks sucks, as does the higher skill on scouts. But our vehicles are fast, and when was the last time we ever used tactical terminators? Or even wanted to for that matter.

The tank formations are actually pretty good. Especially the nifty rules you get for having 3 in a unit

 th3maninblak wrote:
I feel like dread and tank squads are a gimmick and not terribly useful. The dreads having extra attacks sucks, as does the higher skill on scouts. But our vehicles are fast, and when was the last time we ever used tactical terminators? Or even wanted to for that matter.

I actually run Tac Termies fairly regularly as I have a fair few and I'm pretty pleased with the paint job on them. But yes, they suck 90% of the time. Their highlight was actually probably just this evening when ai took a unit with 4 chainfists to deal with a Necron super heavy (Campaign narrative game rather than a pick up) and they managed to kill it. Which was cool...but yeah.

The extra rules for squads of 3 on the tanks are really neat, besides I'd be more inclined to run multiple tanks if they didn't take up multiple slots as you often feel like you need the redundancy just to get by...

Like I say, I'm gonna stick to the BA book, but I do feel like we've got the short end of the stick...


D

We did get the raw end of the deal, but I don't think the book sucks by any stretch of the imagination. Wolves got hit too, and their book has basically been relegated to "super IC thunderwolf star" and really nothing else. We can still compete, but our options for doing so became a bit more limited.

When not running a squadron, our vehicles are still strictly better than their marine counterparts. And though assault is in a bad spot, we can still create viable assault armies using our flying honor guard and liberal use of death company.

Finally, with the way chapter tactics interact with other books now, we can create quite the sanguinary guard+iron hands death star.

 raiden wrote:
Ap2 at I1, dante brings it at initiative 7 on the charge.

It's still kinda meh.

So with Dark angels on the horizon now I cant help but be excited about fielding my angels of death army again without it being total rubbish.
my initial thought was the psychic powers looks fun. assuming you can deliver and use both.

DA. Seed of Fear - WC1 Maledication affecting all enemy units within 9", they take Morale, Pinning, and Fear on 3d6

BA. Fear of the Darkness: WC1 Malediction. Target unit at 12" takes a Morale test with -2LD

Almost guaranteed fail surly ? thinking in general the new DA powers actually work well for BA as a mainly combat based army.

Yeah, me and a friend of mine (who plays DA) were discussing that yesterday. The 2 rage powers work well together, too. Giving Black Knights 3a base plus rage and extra ccw seems silly.

Also, i managed to win a small and fairly friendly tournament on saturday with my BA. Beat 2 eldar players and had them both crying about how OP death co and Mephiston were by the end of the day. I found it pretty hilarious.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Yeah, me and a friend of mine (who plays DA) were discussing that yesterday. The 2 rage powers work well together, too. Giving Black Knights 3a base plus rage and extra ccw seems silly.

Also, i managed to win a small and fairly friendly tournament on saturday with my BA. Beat 2 eldar players and had them both crying about how OP death co and Mephiston were by the end of the day. I found it pretty hilarious.

Wat

I know, right?

The second eldar player asked to see Mephiston's entry in the rule book because he didn't believe he was t5. His response to reading what mephy does was something along the lines of "dude, that's so broken."

.......

You play eldar.

 th3maninblak wrote:
I know, right?

The second eldar player asked to see Mephiston's entry in the rule book because he didn't believe he was t5. His response to reading what mephy does was something along the lines of "dude, that's so broken."

.......

You play eldar.

That makes me grin maybe I should give him a try again, if an eldar player labels him OP. Do you run him with your DC on foot with a droppod?

 th3maninblak wrote:


Also, i managed to win a small and fairly friendly tournament on saturday with my BA. Beat 2 eldar players and had them both crying about how OP death co and Mephiston were by the end of the day. I found it pretty hilarious.

Congratulations, what were the army list like?

Nothing too crazy. The marine list i beat was probably the best of the day, with some min sized troops and 3x3 grav centurions in pods, iron hands of course. The second eldar list had 2 units of bikes and 4 small dire avenger units in serpents, along with some other stuff. I cant really remember much else.

The last list was straight footdar craftworld warhost. Muegan ra, farseer, 2x5 dark reapers with BS5, 6 dragons with exarch, 3x10 guardians with bright lances, a D battery, 3 war walkers with missiles and a vyper. Guy just wanted as many formation bonuses as possible.

Like i said, it was a friendly tournament.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Its one of the things that makes formations great. The elites slot is super crowded in our book as is, but this formation combines extra elites slots with making vanguard vets competitive with the likes of Death Company and Sanguinary Guard. 22 points for a model with a jump pack and a power weapon? Yes please!

Also I am slowly becoming more and more convinced that Sanguinary Guard are one of the most efficient assault units in the game when combined with a priest. In a game vs chaos today i had dante, a priest and 5 SG kill no less than 1200 points worth of stuff.

Don't underestimate 2+ armor with power weapons and power axes.

 NightWrench wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Its one of the things that makes formations great. The elites slot is super crowded in our book as is, but this formation combines extra elites slots with making vanguard vets competitive with the likes of Death Company and Sanguinary Guard. 22 points for a model with a jump pack and a power weapon? Yes please!

Also I am slowly becoming more and more convinced that Sanguinary Guard are one of the most efficient assault units in the game when combined with a priest. In a game vs chaos today i had dante, a priest and 5 SG kill no less than 1200 points worth of stuff.

Don't underestimate 2+ armor with power weapons and power axes.

Don't overestimate it with all the AP 2 weaponry, though.

Is there any place in a competitive BA army for the two troops choices in the Shield of Baal: Deathstorm campaign book?

Raphen's Death Company and Cassor the Damned just seem too expensive to me.

Not really, scouts will be the only troop option outside of drop pod lists.

I commonly spend between 110 and 130 points on troops. The general consensus is that BA wants to spend as little on troops as possible, and load up on things like grav bikes, fast preds, tri melta ASM squads, death co and sang guard.

I've found that Cassor is a reasonable Troop choice when taken in a quite vehicle heavy army. The fact he's a character adds alot to his survivability as he can challenge out Power fist/meltabomb srg's and the like. Now if he had the attacks bonus of SM dreads then.....

 WisdomLS wrote:
I've found that Cassor is a reasonable Troop choice when taken in a quite vehicle heavy army. The fact he's a character adds alot to his survivability as he can challenge out Power fist/meltabomb srg's and the like. Now if he had the attacks bonus of SM dreads then.....

You can also cast the quickening on him, I've used him a few times now and taken out a couple of warlords along the way. I never expect to much from him but he often makes his points back. Praying for +2 attacks to all our dreads to balance the books

I do like the idea of Cassor as he effectively gives us a 5th Elite slot, if only you could put him in a drop pod.

Any preferences for arming Sanguinary Guard? I am thinking of half axe/ half sword and a single plasma pistol (5 man). Is the Inferno pistol just too short range to be of use?

I like 4 swords, banner, fist and one inferno pistol. Usually with Dante and a priest in tow. Or just with the priest in smaller games.