soomemafia wrote: How do you guys split between Swords and Axes with the Sanguinary Guard.
I haven't been using them for a while but seeing all the positive comments makes me want to try them again.
My current SG of five guys has two Swords, two Axes and a Fist.
The Sanguinary Priest with them also has Sword (or Valour's Edge in the new book I guess).
I'm of the opinion that if you can find the points taking PFs over axes is the way to go. So on a unit of 5 dudes, 3 swords and 2 fists. 10pts is great value for a Pfist and the axe offers no other benefit apart from been 10 pts cheaper...
I also like the idea of the SS captain sponge to LoS ap2 <S8 with this unit....
So question. I've started Blood Angels recently (first SM army). Picked up a Vanguard Veteran kit, but am now wondering if it would be better to build them as Assault Marines. And then use the weapon bitz for my Death Company.
Stormraven Gunship
Assault Cannon, Multi-Melta, Extra Armour
205pts
=2000
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Happyjew wrote: So question. I've started Blood Angels recently (first SM army). Picked up a Vanguard Veteran kit, but am now wondering if it would be better to build them as Assault Marines.
Depends on the type of list that you want to build really.
Assault marines can remove their jp and get a free drop pod if you like that kind of army, whilst vanguards are probably better using the formation that gives you a free power weapon or lightning claw on the squad (must be 10man) as well as free combis on the sternguard squads.
Pretty decent list. Very little fat to trim. I'd say the DC is overequipped. I'd drop the powerweapons, definitely drop the infernus pistol off the SG find a few more pts and take 2 extra DC. Then split the DC into 2 5's with a powerfist in each.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Happyjew wrote: So question. I've started Blood Angels recently (first SM army). Picked up a Vanguard Veteran kit, but am now wondering if it would be better to build them as Assault Marines. And then use the weapon bitz for my Death Company.
You'll want 20 to run the formation with free powerweapons. Looks worth it. I wouldn't use them as VVs outside the formation.
Quick question: Have you opened the box yet? If not try and take it back!!! Not because it's VVs but because the monopose models in that box are not balanced very well at all, do not stick very easily and snap in a gentle breeze.
Ok, thanks for the feedback. The power weapons are mainly there for anti meq and the infernus pistol is to try to pop a tank when doa with dante. I originally had a 10man death company squad in my list, but I would rather up the number of sanguinary guard (most likely 8).
Yeh if you are deepstriking I suppose it's not too bad. If not deepstriking infernus pistols are pointless as if within 3" you will be charging and destroying it anyway.
Yeh I still can't decide whether to go for more SG or more DC either. It's a toughy! But a good difficult BA decision for once!
Happyjew wrote: So question. I've started Blood Angels recently (first SM army). Picked up a Vanguard Veteran kit, but am now wondering if it would be better to build them as Assault Marines. And then use the weapon bitz for my Death Company.
You'll want 20 to run the formation with free powerweapons. Looks worth it. I wouldn't use them as VVs outside the formation.
Quick question: Have you opened the box yet? If not try and take it back!!! Not because it's VVs but because the monopose models in that box are not balanced very well at all, do not stick very easily and snap in a gentle breeze.
Unfortunately I've already opened it. I was considering building them as Assault Marines, and saving the collection of weapons for other purposes, such as upgrading characters, and/or Death Company.
soomemafia wrote: How do you guys split between Swords and Axes with the Sanguinary Guard.
I haven't been using them for a while but seeing all the positive comments makes me want to try them again.
My current SG of five guys has two Swords, two Axes and a Fist.
The Sanguinary Priest with them also has Sword (or Valour's Edge in the new book I guess).
I'm of the opinion that if you can find the points taking PFs over axes is the way to go. So on a unit of 5 dudes, 3 swords and 2 fists. 10pts is great value for a Pfist and the axe offers no other benefit apart from been 10 pts cheaper...
I also like the idea of the SS captain sponge to LoS ap2 <S8 with this unit....
D
>
The Axe also has Master-crafted and with WS5 that often means an extra hit.
So 3 hits with S5AP2 or two with higher S?
And I don't like the Captain idea. The squad costs a fortune already and adding extra 150 points just to save a couple of SGuard is not worth it.
It would also fill your HQ section, meaning no more FnP, no Corbulo, Mephiston, Librarian etc.
Ah sweet! Hadn't realised they'd released a new set. Discount what I said earlier, I've been very disappointed with the finecast version, this version looks a lot better by the sounds of it!
I would say many of our weaknesses can be countered by IA:2. Although we get less access to the goodies in there than any other chapter.
GW have done a good job on the dex, there is no 'uber unit' that you can make a death star around as th3maninblak says.
We have pitfall units like the baal pred, there is no way an assault cannon is worth 30pts more than an autocannon and its absolutely laughable to say the same about a flamestorm. There are not as many pitfall units as some dexes though. If we try and shoehorn our old styles into the new dex we lose a lot of optimization, we no longer have av13 lists, mass razor lists, full jp lists etc.
The biggest 'weakness' we have is how well externally balanced our codex is with everyone else if you take out the top tier. Which obviously means it's not a top tier dex... that however, is not a bad thing.
I'd say another weakness is the temptation to take limited long ranged firepower, requiring us to destroy vehicles in combat. Not great when firedragons, wraiths with scythes, plasma totting weapons teams etc, piles out of it.
th3maninblak wrote: Lack of a true death star, and a lack of long ranged firepower outside of heavy support. Also, limited anti air.
Allies? Probablyn either standard marines or guard.
not completely true, imo. Long ranged fire we have in Fast with Typhoon Speeders and in Elite we can pick Dreaddies.
I think this codex lacks of Ignore Cover fire and of an efficient way to bring our units in HtH combat. Allies that can help us are psykers with access to Telepathy; ignores cover may be found with Astra Militarum.
Just out of curiosity, what is the best way to run Death Company? As of right now, I have 5 unassembled from Deathstorm. But I'm not quite sure the way to go with them.
Happyjew wrote: Just out of curiosity, what is the best way to run Death Company? As of right now, I have 5 unassembled from Deathstorm. But I'm not quite sure the way to go with them.
I'm a big proponent of 2 X power fist and 10 X jump pack. Done. I usually put in libby level 2 with sanguinius discipline and valor's edge.
th3maninblak wrote: Lack of a true death star, and a lack of long ranged firepower outside of heavy support. Also, limited anti air.
Allies? Probablyn either standard marines or guard.
not completely true, imo. Long ranged fire we have in Fast with Typhoon Speeders and in Elite we can pick Dreaddies.
I think this codex lacks of Ignore Cover fire and of an efficient way to bring our units in HtH combat. Allies that can help us are psykers with access to Telepathy; ignores cover may be found with Astra Militarum.
The regular Dreadnoughts are propably the worst use of Elite section. Typhoons might work tough...
I have no problem with "lack of long ranged firepower outside of heavy support". That's what HS is for.
What do you guys think of devastators in the new codex? Can they provide some answers to the lack of long-range firepower, or are they a way to squander the limited HS slots?
Hmm I figured hey weren't all that amazing since virtually none of the lists I've seen have them.
Does anyone know of any blogs/sites that have done a full tactical review of the new codex, preferably by experienced BA players? I'm looking for unit-by-unit analysis type of stuff.
Coming from IG I know all the good sites for Guard but it took a long time to find them, so if someone could help guide me I'd appreciate it!
Happyjew wrote: Just out of curiosity, what is the best way to run Death Company? As of right now, I have 5 unassembled from Deathstorm. But I'm not quite sure the way to go with them.
I'm a big proponent of 2 X power fist and 10 X jump pack. Done. I usually put in libby level 2 with sanguinius discipline and valor's edge.
So 10 DC Marines with Jump packs, 2 of which have Power Fists?
Happyjew wrote: Just out of curiosity, what is the best way to run Death Company? As of right now, I have 5 unassembled from Deathstorm. But I'm not quite sure the way to go with them.
I think the standard is about 1 powerfist and 1 power weapon per 5 guys. Perhaps a unit of 10 with 2 fists and 1 power weapon would be suitable.
Ive been following this thread for a bit now and wanted to get some input on these TAC 2000 pt lists all of which are the baal strike force detachments:
List one - This one has more numbers and flame power and has a good alpha strike with the assault squad and dread pods i think.
Baal pred
bolter sponsons
tl assault cannon
storm bolter
Stormraven
multimetla
assault cannon
Stormraven
multimetla
assault cannon
List three - This one some shootyness and has a sang guard star and one less dread for the alpha strike and two less DC models. the librarian is there to buff dante and guard
All look good imo.
I would be careful with the lone baal predator, as it will be picked off, perhaps change it for a las pred. And definetly remember to pay the 1poit for the bolt pistol
sm3g wrote: Has anyone toyed around with many of the forgeworld options available to BA? Anything that stands out as a good contender to include in a list?
I really like the look of the Sicaran Battle Tank but not sure if its worth it over a predator...
At some point I will need to get a Sicaran to be honest. They look really good. For a tank with 6 twin linked shots that ignores jink it's the perfect answer to things like Wave Serpents. Not sure when I'll get one though.
I mainly play against a wave serpent/Wraith knight list. The serpents make it nearly impossible to win the objective game. I am going with flesh tearers formation to get 6 fast attack slots and is nice to only need 1 troop with that. I'm using 3 slots for drop pods and 2 got assault squad melta teams in pods. I'm allying with astra militarum and taking 1 command squad with 4meltas, and 2 veteran squads with 3 meltas and a demo charge each. These might work because the command squad can give orders to ignore cover to his squad and a vet squad.
Turn 1 I'll hopefully be able to drop 2 of those astra militarum pods near 2/4 serpents and blow them up (both if I'm lucky) with melta ignoring jink. The serpent shield can't prevent me from glancing then down with all that melta.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think that's a nice list for ba because only us and wolves can use drop pods for fast attack and then give them to our ally. Astra militarum in pods is dope
Automatically Appended Next Post: What kind of guns are on sicarians? Anyone make your own out if a land raider or battle tank?
I have a sicaran and I would just like to say that they are AMAZING!
I take mine with Schism of mars, lascannons and ceremite.
This gives me 6 tl st7 shots with rending, ignores jink and tank hunter. It also gives me 2 tank hunting lascannons.
It also has immunity to melta and a 4+ against haywire.
I've also proxied a Typhon seige tank which is BRUTAL! For 370 pts with ceremite you have a 14 all rounder superheavy with 6hp, immunity to melta, a 7" ignores cover st10 ap1 primary weapon blast and +1 on the thunderblitz table which is MASSIVE!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another proxy I have used is the javelin.
For 95pts you get 4 st8 shots and a MM shot on top of that when it deepstrikes. That has slaughtered tanks on the turn it has arrived both times I have proxied it.
TranSpyre wrote: Remember you can only get one "Relic of the Armory". The Reclusiarch was the only model with Master of Relics in the BA codex, and they nixed him
Forgeworld addressed this:
Forgeworld's Response
We have looked at this situation and our house rule to cover it is that a Blood Angels force would need to include a Chaplain as Keeper of the Relics in order to use more than one Relic vehicle.
Played a tournament this past weekend using the Mortalis formation, running 3 groups of 10 for the DC squads. Out of the 3 games played, the extra attack for being outnumbered never game into play. The crusader rule however, was very useful for moving 12 and getting good runs into cover going up the board. I'm thinking either go smaller squads to begin with (built bigger thinking I'd take casualties) or just use the Baal Strike Force detachment.
On another note, how does the idea of running multiple jump DC squads, with Corbulo in a transport (like a Land Raider) to give the bubble WS and I.
I pulled off a lucky 5-1 record at a 2 day tourney this past weekend with this list:
Baal strike force
Mephiston and sanguinary priest with valour's edge/bp 2x 10 man CCW/bp scouts
5 man jump pack death co with 4 joes and 1 fist
2x 5 man asm squads with 2 melta/2 inferno in pods
2 land raider redeemers
CAD Corbulo and a warlord chaplain
2x 5 man tactical with heavy flamer/2 hand flamer in pods
The scouts ride in redeemers as relatively cheap combat deathstars, one squad joined by Mephy and the valour's edge priest, while the other has corby and the chaplain. Mephy goes for full divination so that both scout squads will get rerolls to hit (the other squad having hatred.)
2 quad melta pods and 2 triple flamer squads was actually very reliable suicide squadding for a cheap price, and the two tacticals + pods being obsec was almost always handy for scoring a quick maelstrom point and denying one of theirs.
A lot of people were shocked to see the list, and even more shocked that I was at the top tables with it, when draigostar, eldar serpents with tau tank hunter formation, and flyrants were all over the place.
Granted it's not a top tier list, and I had to get very lucky with matchups, mission types, and game ending timing several times, but I think as far as pure BA go, this is pretty good.
niv-mizzet wrote:I pulled off a lucky 5-1 record at a 2 day tourney this past weekend with this list:
Baal strike force
Mephiston and sanguinary priest with valour's edge/bp 2x 10 man CCW/bp scouts
5 man jump pack death co with 4 joes and 1 fist
2x 5 man asm squads with 2 melta/2 inferno in pods
2 land raider redeemers
CAD Corbulo and a warlord chaplain
2x 5 man tactical with heavy flamer/2 hand flamer in pods
The scouts ride in redeemers as relatively cheap combat deathstars, one squad joined by Mephy and the valour's edge priest, while the other has corby and the chaplain. Mephy goes for full divination so that both scout squads will get rerolls to hit (the other squad having hatred.)
2 quad melta pods and 2 triple flamer squads was actually very reliable suicide squadding for a cheap price, and the two tacticals + pods being obsec was almost always handy for scoring a quick maelstrom point and denying one of theirs.
A lot of people were shocked to see the list, and even more shocked that I was at the top tables with it, when draigostar, eldar serpents with tau tank hunter formation, and flyrants were all over the place.
Granted it's not a top tier list, and I had to get very lucky with matchups, mission types, and game ending timing several times, but I think as far as pure BA go, this is pretty good.
I like it!
I still need to get a mephi for my army. But I am a fan of Corbs in 7th (just gotta find a useful squad to put him with).
I have also played with tac squads in a CAB instead of Baal Strike Force for the ObSec + transports with ObSec - I find it quite useful (and tac squads wont be benefitting too much from +1I gained from the Baal Strike Force Anyway).
Agree with above post though, I would probably try ravens over Redeemers
soomemafia wrote:Any opinions on Librarian Dreads?
Got one from a friend and I'm not sure if I'll have any use for it...
I second this, I have one sitting on the shelf, might hit the painting table if I find a use for it (pricey for Master L2 compared to a regular libby though).
Maybe as an HQ in a full armoured list? (I have contemplated running a list of 6 dreads).
Use lib dreads twice now, first game podded slightly back from 2 dc dreads near a guard castle lining update round 2 assault. Annoyingly the guard player used 6 ignore cover lc on him and 4 hit, as you can expect he went pop.
Second game similar tactic but vs sw, podded behind his twc but in cover from his nearby longfangs to give him a tricky choice. Forward and fight the oncoming dc swarm or back to help out. He went back and failed a charge. I then cast the quickening on the lib dread and charge him and 1 dc dreads in. Lib went at i7 (+2 from quickening +1 bsf) and challenged, his wolf lord exepts and gets instant killed by 3 s10 that make it onto him as he fails 2 inv save. Dc dreads killed a couple of wolves but then he died. Lib dread made it out with 1 hull point after his ironpriests messed up and only glanced. The others dc dreads nailed the longfangs
All in all he's fun with the quickening to boost his attacks and ini but not overly comp. Plan on using him again tonight to try and pod near cassor the dammed and cast it on him for extra lols Ba have other much better and more cost effective hq's
InsTincT_OP wrote: Looks like a good list, but the land raiders are an unusual choice imo, maybe stormravens would fit better?
Well done, great result
Ravens do seem like they'd typically be better, and it would give an extra 100 points to play with, but just going off the matchups I had:
Round 1 may have turned out a bit better with some air power coming in instead of just having the redeemers blown, although I did win, maybe it could have brought the win up further?
Round 2 he had a couple traktor gun units that were useless since I had no flyers. Might've worked against me here.
Round 3 he had a couple night scythes, and I abused av14 to hide in for a few turns before he managed to gauss it down, saving the squad from taking more serious punishment, so the redeemer they hid in was a star player here.
Round 4 was N/A
Round 5 had a lot of interceptor and skyfire, as well as massive wave serpent snap shot barrages he could've thrown. He only really go the redeemers down because of a lucky 6 on a pen from nova charged ion accelerator (first shot too, and I failed the 4+ cover!). I feel like ravens here would've made my situation even worse.
Round 6 he had 4 flyers, including 1 raven of his own. Again I feel like just staying out of the air was probably to my benefit here.
Granted with that 100 points I could've either carried a basic dread in a raven, or put veritas vitae on the chap (which I wanted to do in the first place but just couldn't spare 15 points without ruining some unit's function) and pumped 85 more points into the DC, bringing them to 8 man 1 sword 1 fist.
I'm really not a big fan of having full t4 squads with IC's with very few invulns being in plane crashes.
I've been toying around with a BA/GK list for an upcoming tournament (2,000pt broadside bash), and have to say this thread is super useful! One of the things I find quite interesting about BA is that they seem to have a few cheap(ish) high threat units such as DC and SG, that can be buffed up, resulting in threat saturation. Now, the obvious downside is that most of these threats are melee units in a shooting-dominate edition, which is partially why I like the GK pairing.
The general idea of the list is to pod the Furioso, deep strike the TAGK and shunt both dreadknights up the board alongside the DC and SG squads Turn 1. The GK libby rolls divination for perfect timing / forewarning Prescience, to make the Devastator squad pretty mean. The end result is 4x short-range threats, 2x medium threats, and 1x long range threat. They can choose to focus on the dreadknights / furioso but that means turn 2 the DC and SG will be within charge range. The tac quad is there to add additional close-up firepower where it's needed.
Baal Strike Force - 1,206 pts
HQ Librarian
-- Jump Pack; ML2
** Rolls on Divination and joins SG squad
Should give your Death Company that have hammers or fists bolters IMO - you don't get the extra attack from the BP (specialist weapon) plus they can shoot a bolter and still charge
Played a friendly game tonight, so may not be useful in a competitive thread, but I'll regale my experiences none the less.
Mission was the first Maelstrom one, where you always have 3 cards. 1500 pts each, vs Marines (Ultra). He was running a nice balanced mechanised TAC list, true to the codex including 3 tac squads, HBdevs, dread with TLHB, Tri-Las dread, Dakka pred, cpatin with tooled up command squad.
I was running BSF and the arc Angels detachment, as follows:
As you can see from my list, we weren't playing super cut throat competitive game.
My warlord traits made it night fighting T1 and my army had night fighting. Not that I had alot of long range shooting to capitalise on this, and also had the -1 modifier to my opponents reserve rolls, and he had no reserves...
My opponent lacked the fire lanes and los to shoot me T1. I flat outed/ran to get 3 units to score d3 vp for having 3 units within 12" of my opponents deployment zone.
Turn 2. My opponent committed a large amount of his force to take care of a rhino and the melts tac squad I send his way. Failed to wreck the rhino with shooting and then proceeded to fail charging his dreadnought through difficult terrain, anything other than double one would probably have gotten him in and he rolled doubled one.
Turn two my termies and warlord deepstrike mishapped and were destroyed putting me down by 350 points. Which was deeply unpleasant. The only reason I was running them was because I'd recently finished painting them and wanted to give them some love...See how they repay me!
Aside from that, my DC charges a tac squad and killed all but two, who managed to successfully run away but not off the table. My attack bikes and Sternguard flatouted again to outflank (not the rule) the forces committed to the far side of the board. My Melta tac squad whiffed shooting at the tri-Las pred and then I forgot to charge it.
His turn three he killed a rhino and charged my Melta squad with his dread, they ended up being tied in combat for a few turns and the remnants of my tac squad took two HP off it during that. His now two man tac squad went started to harass my DC but didn't charge them, forcing me to deal with them in my next turn...i'd managed to position my bikes and sternguard out of sight, so they remained safe.
In my turn I moved my attack bikes into a ruin hanging them back and pushed forward with the sterngaurd rhino, flat putting that into a central position and in the open of his firing lines hoping to draw his forces around them. Nothing else of note exper my flamer tacs tactically withdrawing away from his command unit which was chasing them down in a rhino.
His turn he popped the stern guard rhino and killed a couple of the sterngaurd. Nothing else of note happened. I should probably mention at this point I've only got two victory points and he'd scored first blood and warlord from my DS mishap and was a few VP ahead from achieving cards, so I was more intent on putting the hurt on they achieving victory...
My next turn I really needed a good psy phase as I planned to divination my Sternguard, unload my combo plas and vengence rounds into a squad an buff meph with the div power that lets you reroll the casters armour save, I'd put meth at the front into the firing to get the rerollable 2+ or a 2+ LoS. Rolled a 1 on my power dice so only had 4 to play with. Decided that 3 on prescience would be best with 1 to get the rerollable 2+. Failed to get either power off. The dice gods really didn't want this game to go well for me. Ended up losing 3 Sternguard and a wound off meth to gets hot. Other side of the field my flamer tacs were still running from his command squad, I send my DC in their direction to reinforce them, but it'd be another turn until they got their.
His turn. He put alot of firepower into the Sternguard and Meth, killing meph and all but two of the Sternguard, his command squad jumped out their rhino and managed to kill all but 1 of the flamer tac squad from shooting. He also moved a tac squad that had being going around picking up objectives to engage my attack bikes but failed to cause any wounds.
This is my last turn. Sternguard charge the tac squad that was in from of them. Attack bikes shoot and charge the tac squad in front of them. DC charge the command squad. DC despite being down to 3 grunts, a power sword and a fist (and chappy) wipe the command squad. The rerolls to hit really saved my bacon. Turns out I had two maelstrom cards for getting the enemy warlord, one worth d3 and got 2 vp, one worth 1 and obviously the secondary objective for warlord. We have to end the game here as my opponents lift had arrived, we total up and ir was 6vp each, so a I managed to snath a draw from the jaws of defeat.
Lessons learned. I really like the DC with a chappy, now we 're WS4 the chappy really allows a small unit to punch about it's weight. I found that because I was more mobile from faster vehicles I could really control the flow of the battle, by hiding units until I was ready to strike and limiting the damage output of my opponent. Even thought Meth isn't as good as he used to be he still scares the crap out of people, so the psychological edge he can give is great. Playing the more laid back lists and units you wouldn't normally run can give a new perspective of elements of the battle.
Sorry for the long post. Hope some of you find it aleast mildly entertaining if not particularly useful for enhancing the competitive nature of the book.
Sounds really good, thanks for sharing!
And this thread is intended for any kind of gaming really, so despite the title, this post doesnt go against that
Whilst this may have nothing to do with the thread in general, i'd just like to say - I got exterminatus delivered yesterday evening and the background book is amazing. You do have to take it with a pinch of salt though.
Eg:
-2 and a bit companies of BA, a company of Flesh Tearers, a few thousand surviving Cadians, a few hundred surviving Sisters and some locals against trillions of Tyranids across 3 planets.
-A city on the core of a gas giant.
-2 SM fleets (seeming to number the size of 2 whole full strength chapters by the sound of it, so where's the rest of the 2 chapters?) taking on a fleet that BLOTS OUT parts of a solar system (just try and imagine the enormity of a solar system before trying to imagine how many bio-ships that is).
-The majority of a solar systems fighter craft deployed on Areos, all destroyed by the tyranid presence, a single flight of stormravens and thunderhawks breaks through said tyranids.
The BA in this book are the proper plot protected super duper Mario-when-he-has-a-fire-flower marines that annoy some people. But if you accept this from the start, it is an excellent book.
So here is my idea for a BA ally for my Imperial Guard, let me know if you guys have any suggestions for how to improve it. Basically, I have some Death Company and want a scary unit that my opponent will need to focus down while I shell the crap out of them. I could always deep strike them, but DSing a 10 man unit is always a scary prospect.
Baal Strike Force (the +1 Ini on the charge one)
HQ-
Chaplain with a Jump Pack
Troops-
5 Bolter Scouts
5 Bolter Scouts
Elite-
9 Death Company, JP, 2x Power Fists
So this is the main meat of the force, not sure if I should take the relic Jump Pack on the Chaplain so I have the option for DS, what do you guys think?
Also I have 1 Drop Pod, I can either take a triple melta assault squad, or a Furioso Dreadnought in it. I'm leaning towards Furioso at the moment, with a Heavy Flamer and Frag Cannon. Thoughts?
niv-mizzet wrote: Just wait til you get to the part where the Sanguinor starts doing stuff with ease that is literally impossible for his crappy in game model.
Also makes me laugh how they didn't want Mephy to be a show stealer, so they "deus exit machina" (see tv tropes) him with a psychic headache.
THREE carnifex??? That last scene with Dante + Sanguinor is cringe.
niv-mizzet wrote: Just wait til you get to the part where the Sanguinor starts doing stuff with ease that is literally impossible for his crappy in game model.
Also makes me laugh how they didn't want Mephy to be a show stealer, so they "deus exit machina" (see tv tropes) him with a psychic headache.
THREE carnifex??? That last scene with Dante + Sanguinor is cringe.
Not wanting the talk on Exterminatus to de-rail the thread, but I didn't have a problem with the final scene with Dante and the Sanguinor, I thought the ending added a nice touch of gravity to the future for the system...but yeah I wish the Sanguinor would be as boss as he was in the fluff.
Totally agree. All they would have to do is give him S and T of 6, make his sword ap2 and keep him at the same points cost he was in the last dex. If anyone thinks thats OP they should look at Abbaddon who is 10pts less (than 5th ed sanguinor), has a bucket load more attacks at a higher st and 1 less toughness. And has IC. And he's considered no where near OP.
Anyway I've been looking atvthe flesh tearers strike force and those 6 FA slots have been driving me crazy with all the oppertunities they unlock. Consider the following:
Baal strike force:
Techmarine
Servoharness and combiplasma (in plas pod)
5 scouts
Ccw & bp
5 scouts
Ccw & bp
5 DC Jps & 1 PF
5 DC Jps & 1 PF
5 DC Jps & 1 PF
5 DC Jps & 1 PF
5 AMs
2 flamers & combi flamer
Pod
5 AMs
2 flamers & combi flamer
Pod
5 AMs
(Jps) 2 melta, combi-melta & mbs
Flesh Tearers Strike Force
Priest (in plas pod)
Combi plasma
5 scouts
Bolters
5 AM 2 melta & combi melta
Pod
5 AM 2 plasma & combi plasma
Pod
5 AM 2 melta & combi melta
Pod
5 AM (Jps) 2 plasma & combi plasma
Landspeeder (DS)
2 multimelta
Landspeeder (DS)
2 multimelta
1850pts
The plasma pod is quite expensive at 280pts with the 2 characters but puts out 11 plasma shots on the drop (1 tl) and covers both HQ taxes.
Bolters on the FT scouts as they don't have the +1I. The only units loosing out on the +1I who would want to use it are the 2 melta pods after the drop.
It contains 2 flamer, 2 melta and 1 plasma pod so you can decide which you need down T1. There are 2 dual melta speeders to give tank busting shots in later turns. A melta and plasma jp squads to support where needed. And the bread and butter powerfist DC squads with jps to take on anything from hordes to grav-tanks to MCs. The 2 other scout squads provide nuisance factor with their 15 st5 I5 attacks on the charge.
List ignores air targets as it will be in opponents deployment zone most of the game.
Poly Ranger wrote: Totally agree. All they would have to do is give him S and T of 6, make his sword ap2 and keep him at the same points cost he was in the last dex. If anyone thinks thats OP they should look at Abbaddon who is 10pts less (than 5th ed sanguinor), has a bucket load more attacks at a higher st and 1 less toughness. And has IC. And he's considered no where near OP.
Anyway I've been looking atvthe flesh tearers strike force and those 6 FA slots have been driving me crazy with all the oppertunities they unlock. Consider the following:
Baal strike force:
Techmarine
Servoharness and combiplasma (in plas pod)
5 scouts
Ccw & bp
5 scouts
Ccw & bp
5 DC Jps & 1 PF
5 DC Jps & 1 PF
5 DC Jps & 1 PF
5 DC Jps & 1 PF
5 AMs
2 flamers & combi flamer
Pod
5 AMs
2 flamers & combi flamer
Pod
5 AMs
(Jps) melta, combi-melta & mbs
Flesh Tearers Strike Force
Priest (in plas pod)
Combi plasma
5 scouts
Bolters
5 AM 2 melta & combi melta
Pod
5 AM 2 plasma & combi plasma
Pod
5 AM 2 melta & combi melta
Pod
5 AM (Jps) 2 plasma & combi plasma
Landspeeder (DS)
2 multimelta
Landspeeder (DS)
2 multimelta
1850pts
The plasma pod is quite expensive at 280pts with the 2 characters but puts out 11 plasma shots on the drop (1 tl) and covers both HQ taxes.
Bolters on the FT scouts as they don't have the +1I. The only units loosing out on the +1I who would want to use it are the 2 melta pods after the drop.
It contains 2 flamer, 2 melta and 1 plasma pod so you can decide which you need down T1. There are 2 dual melta speeders to give tank busting shots in later turns. A melta and plasma jp squads to support where needed. And the bread and butter powerfist DC squads with jps to take on anything from hordes to grav-tanks to MCs. The 2 other scout squads provide nuisance factor with their 15 st5 I5 attacks on the charge.
List ignores air targets as it will be in opponents deployment zone most of the game.
What do you think?
Funky. Minor thing. Is it worth swapping the detachment HQs around? Make priest BSF and Tech FT, as doesn't the servo harness make him I1 anyway? If you do that, maybe considering finding the points to give the priest the complas and a relic blade, just to make him a little more potent in CC?
Are you going to test drive this list? I'd be intrigued to know how it played.
I have enough specials to run it although don't have combis on any priest model or my techmarine. Im also short by 2 drop pods and a speeder but could borrow those.
You're right - the priest and techmarine should be swapped round. I could drop the 2 combi-flamers from the sarges and get the priest Valors Edge.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and it should read 2 melta on the jp squad.
Poly Ranger wrote: I have enough specials to run it although don't have combis on any priest model or my techmarine. Im also short by 2 drop pods and a speeder but could borrow those.
You're right - the priest and techmarine should be swapped round. I could drop the 2 combi-flamers from the sarges and get the priest Valors Edge.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and it should read 2 melta on the jp squad.
You sure you want Valours edge over a relic blade. Assuming he's keeping the combiplas you're going to be unloading a load of ap2 into whatever you shoot at. Sure ap2 @ initiative is awesome but you won't with the combiplas you will be losi g a cc attach not not having two ccws and si ce the relic blade is two-handed then that's not a problem...
Food for thought.
This list has got some serious alpha strike potential with the mix of plas/flamer and Melta pods, but I wonder if the points used for the Landspeeders could be better spent. Sure extra Melta dsing is good, but I'm wondering if s couple of dmin bike squads with double grav might be a better option? Not sure how the points tally up for that vs a land speeder, but it gives you a couple of units on the bird from T1, gives you some decent options vs MCs and other 2+ units, and they're more durable than speeders but still mobile.
The one with 3 stormravens and 3 10 man tactical squads with free teleport homers. They have triangular something-or other which allows all units to deep strike in that area without scattering.
Yeah, I agree. Maybe 2000+ it might be worthwhile. I think if I were to use it I would add a Baal Strikeforce Detachment with some assaulty units, a furioso in a pods and 2 melta assault squads in pods and a sanguinary priest.
It's okay at 2k points. Starts getting over the top OP at 2500+
This is of course assuming you allow the t1 pods to benefit. In the itc tourneys, they house ruled that the homers need to be on the table since start of turn, so you would want to jump pack spam instead and hope at least two ravens survive t1.
So I had some luck yesterday with the following 1000 point list:
HQ Sanguinary Priest
Bike
Valours Edge
Bolt Pistol
Elite 5x Death Company
1 w/fist and Bolter
1 w/Power Weapon and Bolt Pistol
3 w/CCW and Bolt Pistol
Troops 5x Tactical Squad
1x Heavy Flamer
Sargent with Hand Flamer and CCW In a Lascannon Razorback
5x Scouts
Snipers and camo cloaks
Fast Attack 3x Bikes
2 Grav Guns
Sargent just with chainsword
Attack Bike with MM ^^^Priest ran with these guys
5x Assault Marines
2x Melta Gun
1x Fist on Sargent
Jump Packs (I currently dont own any drop pods)
1 Land Speeder (Odd choice but never used one and had a few points left over)
Multi melta & Typhoon Missile Launcher
Heavy Support Vindicator with Overcharged Engines
I played an IG tank list (mate was trying something new) and then I played a chaos marine list. tabled both of them. Found the list very well rounded, it didn't really matter what was shot at as all my units could pack enough punch to do something.
Poly Ranger wrote: I have enough specials to run it although don't have combis on any priest model or my techmarine. Im also short by 2 drop pods and a speeder but could borrow those.
You're right - the priest and techmarine should be swapped round. I could drop the 2 combi-flamers from the sarges and get the priest Valors Edge.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and it should read 2 melta on the jp squad.
You sure you want Valours edge over a relic blade. Assuming he's keeping the combiplas you're going to be unloading a load of ap2 into whatever you shoot at. Sure ap2 @ initiative is awesome but you won't with the combiplas you will be losi g a cc attach not not having two ccws and si ce the relic blade is two-handed then that's not a problem...
Food for thought.
This list has got some serious alpha strike potential with the mix of plas/flamer and Melta pods, but I wonder if the points used for the Landspeeders could be better spent. Sure extra Melta dsing is good, but I'm wondering if s couple of dmin bike squads with double grav might be a better option? Not sure how the points tally up for that vs a land speeder, but it gives you a couple of units on the bird from T1, gives you some decent options vs MCs and other 2+ units, and they're more durable than speeders but still mobile.
D
Thought about what you've said and I could drop the priest down to a techmarine with combi-plasma, drop the servo harness off the other techmarine, drop a pf down to a power axe from 1 DC squad and change the speeders to 2 3 man bike squads with 2 gravs and combi-grav.
I think your top threes are spot on apart from baal pred, it cant compete in that slot at all. Also if you include fw the sicaran should get a nod, even the base model is very good for the points.
Also special mention to Astorath, on his own he's OK other than the unwieldy weapon but he turns ba best unit (dc) into a total monster of a unit.
I wasn't including FW models, but if I did, I would definitely include the Sicaran (It's fast and has a TL Heavy 6 Rending Autocannon as its main gun) and maybe the fire raptor. However, in terms of purely codex models, the Baal predator is easily the best anti-infantry heavy support model (Apart from maybe Devs with HBs or MLs). A TL assault canon far outclasses an Autocannon when compared to the predator destructor. Still, I would personally take a las pred over a Baal pred. As for Astorath, yes while mega hatred on DC is awesome, it is expensive awesome.
Oohh good idea to list.
My top 3 (some of which I may not have used) not inc FW.
HQ Bare bones jp priest (For SG)
Jp libby
Mephiston
Troops
5 man ccw&bp scouts with mbs on sarge
5 man bolter/sniper scouts (may not do much damage but have scored me more objective points alltogether than any one else)
5 man tacs in pod with hf and combi-flamer (not used)
Elites
5 man jpDC with 1pf
8-10 man SG with 2 fists and banner
Fragnought with pod
Fast attack
5 AM with 2 melta and combi-melta in pod
Grav bikes (not used - don't own)
Dual MM speeder
Heavy Support
Storm raven
Fast auto-las pred
Fast Vindicator (although this is risky with assault army. Haven't used this with the new dex but it is exactly the same as the old dex).
Worst in each slot and why:
HQ Captain tycho
With no dead mans hand he is basically a one use melta gun. May as well buy a combi-melta for a sarge.
Troops
Fully kitted out tac squad with no transport
Tacs are a tax in my eyes anyway, paying full wack for them os just crazy.
Elites
Normal terminators
Need I explain?
Fast attack
Any non MM speeder
The DS on a dual MM speeder is leathal, after its drop it is incredibly fragile and jink makes it useless. This applies to all speeders, but the rest don't get the benefit of 2 melta shots in melta range against rear armour.
Heavy support
Baal pred with flamestorm
Lack of scout and being in heavy kills it. Especially now we have anti-meq options which have become far cheaper.
Ally astra militarum. Take 1 command squad. 5 guys, 4 with melta guns for 100pt. Take 2 vet squads. Each with 3 melta guns and a demo charge guy for 120pt each. That's 340 points and then take flesh tearers if you need the extra fa slots to get 3drop pods for those allies. 105pt.
That's 445pt for a nice alpha strike. I've been killing with this at 1850pt. The company commander can give orders to ignore cover to his squad and1 other per turn. Or orders to have tank hunter or monster hunter. I also have a fragnought in pod. Tac squad with flamers in pod, and 2 asm squads with melta in pods.
The dc, sang guard and grav bike star i start on the board get largely untouched turn 1 and sometimes 2. If they have first turn I'll maybe deep strike tho
I like reading everything here because I've been screwing around with the idea of turning all my old 3rd edition models into a newly painted Lamenters army (I just love the fluff). That being said, I hope maybe I can field a few questions.
I feel like if I do the repaint, I lose access to Dante, and while Malakim seems cool, he lacks a Jump Pack, making it difficult for me to see taking him since he still tends to be more of a melee oriented chapter master. Was thinking about just going with some cheaper HQ's, Sang Priests or Librarians or one of each. I'd probably be using the standard BSF formation I think.
For troops, I was thinking just scouts, but I was wondering whether I should stick with CCWs or just go the regular sniper route. I feel like CCWs are alot more fluffy for my army, but I'm not entirely sure I'd know how to field them well yet.
Elites would mainly be DC, SG, and a Fragioso, but also, if I only have a single Fragioso, I was curious if that was worth drop podding or if I should aim for more things to drop. I feel like if I only drop one dreadnought, he's only there to die while hopefully taking something with him. Is that an okay use for a single dreadnought? Should I aim to drop anything else? I feel like there must be a fine line between too much drop and too little.
For Fast Attack, I've been reading up on how powerful the bikes are, especially with some grav guns, but I don't actually own any of those from years back. What I do have are 3 speeders I figured I could kit out with Assault Cannons but I never really see anyone mention them. Are they bad now? I could get the same Multi-meltas on them I could on attack bikes, just wouldn't have the Toughness value. On a side note, can I still fire my heavy flamers after a jink? I was thinking I might be able to screen the speeders (or bikes if I went and bought some) using a cheap Assault squad, unless drop podding the assault squad ended up being a better use of points. I just sorta hate the idea of dropping them only to die.
For heavy, I still have two unassembled Predators and a Vindi as well as a whirlwind. I love how cheap the whirlwind is now but I never see those mentioned either. I could go buy a stormraven if they are really as awesome as everyone says, but I'm not sure what unit I'd put in it. Maybe just the Dreadnought. I'd hate to use Malakim and stick him in there. He comes with an honor guard but that is a ton of points to tie up in one stormraven. If it got shot out of the sky that way, I'm not 100% I could recover from that.
So to summarize, wouldn't get a Dante and Malakim might be tactically less mobile. Scouts, snipers or CCWs and how best to use them. How many Fragiosos to field (I mean is just 1 really okay)? Bikes and Attack Bikes vs the use of Speeders, are the speeders worth it (I do like the idea of loading em up with Assault Cannons, but not sure). And Fast Preds/Vindi? I love my whirlwind but it may not add much, and to buy/not buy a Stormraven?
Any thoughts are welcome. While I'm missing plenty, I'm trying to sorta feel out an overall battleplan for what I have so I can figure out what to buy next. This whole thread has been very informative. Thanks Ya'll
kps wrote: Ally astra militarum. Take 1 command squad. 5 guys, 4 with melta guns for 100pt. Take 2 vet squads. Each with 3 melta guns and a demo charge guy for 120pt each. That's 340 points and then take flesh tearers if you need the extra fa slots to get 3drop pods for those allies. 105pt.
That's 445pt for a nice alpha strike. I've been killing with this at 1850pt. The company commander can give orders to ignore cover to his squad and1 other per turn. Or orders to have tank hunter or monster hunter. I also have a fragnought in pod. Tac squad with flamers in pod, and 2 asm squads with melta in pods.
The dc, sang guard and grav bike star i start on the board get largely untouched turn 1 and sometimes 2. If they have first turn I'll maybe deep strike tho
This is an absurdly good idea! I'd been thinking of demo spec squads but vets with a command squad to give them orders is far better!
Id keep the vet squads at 90pts personally as 30pts is a lot for a demo charge on a suicide squad. It also makes them only 10pts more expensive than the 2 melta & combi melta ASM squad when the pod is factored in, which is definitely worth the high likelyhood of tankhunter or ignores cover.
385pts with pods - excellent!
Also opens up the possibility of 9 wyverns and a pask squadron.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll come back with a list soon - this is an exciting idea, thanks kps!
Cant a vet squad throw that demo change in turn 1 when they arrive in drop pod? I thought they could. My brother lost an entire tau missile star to a drop pod demo charge. I probably don't need both to have it, but there are times it can be devastating. I threw one on a seer Council on jet bikes and it scattered, but i can't wait for the day i instant kill a few farseers and warlock with one toss. I might save 30pt and get only 1 demo charge instead of both.
I'm really liking Corbulo in a squad of drop-podded sternguard in low point games. He handles decently in combat, with the potential for Initiative 7 Rending attacks at WS5/S5, while boosting the sternguard with FnP and +1 WS/I.
Yep they can. I suppose the 30pts could be worth it. I'm just thinking that it's not going to necessarily wanting to be hitting the same thing as the melta guns. Although the mbs will make the squad more dangerous.
How about 2 command squads with 3 melta and a vox each.
2 vet squads with 3 melta and a vox each.
4 pods.
520pts
This allows for a command on each squad.
Maybe an astropath in each squad for a couple of psychic shrieks. A couple of demo charges too if you want to splash out.
Looks good. Wyverns are awesome. Sicarians are awesome. I like the list.
Btw, There's an order that gives split fire. Its useful for the melta shots and demo charge to split. You're not always in a position to be 8" from one squad and 12" from another, but I've had the chance to do that once. I think I'll take away 1 of the vet squads demo charge.
I like the idea of small bike squads. I run a little bike star with 4 bikers and 2.5 grav and mm attack bike, a captain with storm shield, combi grav, articifer armor, and pfist. And then a priest with combi grav. This is awesome, but once the combi grav are gone i think several bike squads with 2 straight grav each would be better.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hq Priest. Warlord, combigrav, bike
Captain. Storm shield, combigrav, articifer armor, pfist
Troop
9 tac squad. Heavy flamer, drop pod
Elite
7 death company. 7 bolters, 2 pfists
5 sang guard. 1axe, 1 pfist
Frag Dreadnought. Drop pod
Fast attack
4 bike squad. 2 grav, combigrav, mm attack bike
5 assault squad. 2 melta, combimelta, drop pod
5 assault squad. 2 melta, combimelta, drop pod
3 drop pods
Astra militarum allies
Hq 5 company command. 4 melta
Troop
10 vet squad. 3 melta, demo charge
10 vet squad. 3 melta, demo charge
It costs about the same at 205pts before upgrades, but is 11 armor around, and only 2 hps. Has no transport capacity and I think 2 weapons total.
Its weapon has a special rule that if it scores a penetrating hit it rolls d3 times on the table and picks the highest result. Opponents also have to reroll jink/cover saves versus that specific weapon.
It can Deep strike in hover or flyer mode, which is interesting but can cause it to mishap.
It is similar to the stormraven in that it can hunt vehicles, but it is mainly designed to hunt aircraft, and has no transport capacity.
kps wrote: Looks good. Wyverns are awesome. Sicarians are awesome. I like the list.
Btw, There's an order that gives split fire. Its useful for the melta shots and demo charge to split. You're not always in a position to be 8" from one squad and 12" from another, but I've had the chance to do that once. I think I'll take away 1 of the vet squads demo charge.
I like the idea of small bike squads. I run a little bike star with 4 bikers and 2.5 grav and mm attack bike, a captain with storm shield, combi grav, articifer armor, and pfist. And then a priest with combi grav. This is awesome, but once the combi grav are gone i think several bike squads with 2 straight grav each would be better.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hq Priest. Warlord, combigrav, bike
Captain. Storm shield, combigrav, articifer armor, pfist
Troop
9 tac squad. Heavy flamer, drop pod
Elite
7 death company. 7 bolters, 2 pfists
5 sang guard. 1axe, 1 pfist
Frag Dreadnought. Drop pod
Fast attack
4 bike squad. 2 grav, combigrav, mm attack bike
5 assault squad. 2 melta, combimelta, drop pod
5 assault squad. 2 melta, combimelta, drop pod
3 drop pods
Astra militarum allies
Hq 5 company command. 4 melta
Troop
10 vet squad. 3 melta, demo charge
10 vet squad. 3 melta, demo charge
1846
Ah yes - I'd never thought about the split fire rule, excellent point. I think I'd drop my tl las and something else and grab the demo charge then.
Love your list. Is this the one you've used before?
I don't own any bikes (well - 3, but DV ones so no grav) so have only been on the receiving end of grav, but know how irritating it is. Since we don't get bike troops at 5 man and 21pts is a lot for abalative wounds I think it's better to stick them at 3 personally... or 3 plus AB. Unless going for a biker star with characters like you have.
Do you think maybe dropping 1 melta from your CCS and finding another 5pts to get a vox on each squad to almost guarantee those orders is worth it?
Automatically Appended Next Post: [spoiler]
bloodoffi wrote: Well, what do you think on the new xiphon flyer? Could it replacethe stormraven?
I really don't think so personally.
- It's far more fragile than the SR.
- The MM on a SR has more chance of an explodes result than the XRML - it just looks fancy as a d3 roll.
- Against non ceremite targets the SR causes more damage against every single av value and toughness. Against ceremite targets of certain value the Xiphon ever so slightly edges ahead. This includes its reroll jink/ignores cover.
- The SR can carry a dread and upto 12 passengers compared to the Xiphons none.
- The SR is 5pts cheaper.
In return the Xiphon gets:
- +1 jink. If it's jinking its entirely useless. And with av11 2HP 205pts - you will definitely be tempted to jink it.
- Deep strike. This is decent for rear armour shots on flyers. But good enough to cancel out all the advantages of the SR? No way. Also only useful against flyers coming on before you. If using this against ground targets, you may as well use a dual mm speeder for 125pts cheaper.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kasrkin52 wrote: is it worth taking mephiston over a standard librarian with jump pack?
If you can fit him in and have the points yes! I've run him once since the new dex. With a 9 man assault squad in a pod - they did reasonably well (against CSM I think). Anyway - the issue I find is actually finding a list to fit him in since most of my units in most of my list tend to be small melta pod squads (not ideal for an expensive character), jp squads or infiltrating squads. I think if taking th/ss termis, sternguard or a large pod squad he would be worth it over a standard libby. A jp libby on the other hand goes with different units so it is hard to compare.
As said above. It has 2 tl lascannon and 1 missile lancer with -1 ap from the Original missile lancher. When it pens you roll d3 times and you take the highest roll at the damage table. Has +1 in it's jink save and successful jink saves from the target must be enrolled. I was thinking using it in wave serpents spams or flying circus lists..
Its rules are available here.
Don't be fooled - d3 pick the highest rolls at ap2 on the damage table is actually worse than just a straight ap1. Tlmm is mathmatically better than the 2 (non tl) shots of the XRML against almost everything (except FMCs and ceremite models).
Tlac wins out against one of the tllcs against everything barring av12 where it is equal.
3 st8 ap2 missiles win out against the remaining tl lascannon.
Av12 3hps wins out against av11 2hps and +1 jink.
12 + dread cap wins out against no cap.
200pts wins out against 205pts.
Non DS loses out to DS.
HQ:
Mephiston
Chaplin
Librarian (either jp or tda/SS)
Troops:
CCW/BP scouts
5man tac with flamer (hide in own deployment zone on an objective)
5 man tac squad, plas, combo plas, las/plas razorback (great for razor spam, take in cad rather than BSF)
Honourable mention: Cassor the Damned, good if you like DC dreads as won't take an elite slot, also a character so can benefit from The Quickening
Elite:
Death Company, JPs, PW and PF to taste
Fragioso in pod
Sternguard go accompany Meph
Fast:
MM attack bikes
Bike squads
Drop pod (great for rent-a-pod in FTSF)
The sound of allying imperial guard sounds like a good idea from what you guys have said, the re-rolls and split fire seems to be especially good imo,
Atm I am looking into formations a bit more, in particular the angels fury spearhead one, although I'm finding it slightly difficult to add everything I want to in at 1850-2000.
You guys have also helped me look towards allies more as well, as before I seemingly just wanted to stick to pure BA. (Dont ask me why, I have no idea!)
Anyway, which formations and allies are you liking atm? Astra Millitarum seems to be an obvious choice for many of you.
I know what you mean. I've wanted to be pure blood angels for a long time. But i realize that is more fun to have an army that can win if you play smart, and pure blood angels is not always capable of that. It's a decent codex, but it's not powerful enough to beat the likes of eldar, tau, necron, meq We either get shot of the board or beat at our own game. Blood angels are not cc powerhouse. We're fast and elite. So we just gotta play to blood angels strengths and find a way too be threatening instead of just hopeful that we might get into close combat with enough guys left to do damage. That's no fun.
Blood angels need allies to be truly competitive. I like the fluff of using imperial guard battle brothers personally. Tau missile star could add the resilient, shot absorbing, powerhouse shooting type of squad that would allow our units like death company and sanguinary guard to get into combat before getting blasted. But i hate tau. I'm sure there are some other good options out there too. So good question. I'm curious what other armies might ally well with ba to play to our strengths - fast elites.
Since we are 1 of 2 armies that can take drop pods as fast attack, and since we can take flesh tearers formation and get 6 fast attack slots and only need 1 troop, i don't see why it's not a standard practice for ba players to alpha strike something nasty in those pods.
Played two games using a couple combinations of Corbulo and Death Company. Both worked really well, especially when keeping the DC units near enough to Corbulo to benefit from the +1 WS and I.
Game 1: Corbulo, with Assault Terminators in a Land Raider, 3 squads of 10 DC with JP, 1 with Astorath.
Game 2: 2 DC Squads with JP, 1 DC squad on foot in Land Raider with Corbulo.
Probably more synergy with the 1st setup though. I was playing against Space Wolves, so the Initiative at 6 on the charge didn't matter too much, but when receiving attacks, it was nice to still go first.
Ghost_Raptur wrote: Played two games using a couple combinations of Corbulo and Death Company. Both worked really well, especially when keeping the DC units near enough to Corbulo to benefit from the +1 WS and I.
Game 1: Corbulo, with Assault Terminators in a Land Raider, 3 squads of 10 DC with JP, 1 with Astorath.
Game 2: 2 DC Squads with JP, 1 DC squad on foot in Land Raider with Corbulo.
Probably more synergy with the 1st setup though. I was playing against Space Wolves, so the Initiative at 6 on the charge didn't matter too much, but when receiving attacks, it was nice to still go first.
I've been trying something in my last few games and since it's been working rather well I thought I'd share my experiences.
Conventional internet wisdom currently seems to be putting Dante in with a squad of Sang Guard and a priest for the WS buff and FnP.
I've been running Dante with my DC and a Chaplain and I've been pretty pleased with the results.
Let me explain how I got to this point. I was thinking which unit would benefit most from Hit & Run than is provided by Dante. My experience with the DC has been that they rock the first round of combat but less so in subsequent rounds, being able to rinse and repeat the bonus attacks, FC and bonus initiative (BSF only) is would be sweet. Since I'd being missing the BS5 on the DC I've been trying out the Chappy as my HQ as the rerolls on the charge is still sweet, obviously this only gets better with HnR.
I haven't done the Mathhammer on how DC vs SG stack up but I've toted up some figures and put together some observations:
Sang Guard
To get the most out of these you'll want a JP priest, atleast with a power weapon (if not the ap2 sword, I've calculated on a std pw). He brings +1WS and FnP to the unit. 2+/5+ FnP makes for a pretty durable squad. He'll want a pistol too.
The SG themselves, I've calculated 8 bodies with 7 PWs of various descriptions and a PF, you'll want the banner for those essential bonus attacks too.
This unit runs with the priest runs you 390pts plus the cost of Dante which I haven't includes as he appears in both units.
Pros
2+ with 5+ FnP makes them tough, Dante and the Priest also benefit from these buffs
WS5 whilst the priest is alive and nearly everyone having mastercrafted weapons means alot of your attacks will land.
Everyone is striking with at least ap3 weapons
Cheap power fists
Ap4 shooting to from Angelius BPs If some gets a wound on your priest he'll be LOSing onto 2+ assuming it's not an ap 2 attack.
Cons
Potential for your extra attacks banner / FnP to be sniped out
All those high ap weapons can sometimes be a waste when against hordes
Expensive per model, each casualty hurts
Lower 'rate of fire' on attacks
No access to an invul for the priest
Death Co:
As with the SG this unit needs a character, this time the humble Chaplain. Slightly higher cost off the bat but he comes with an invul and a built in power weapon (maul so ap4). The only buffs the chappy brings is rerolls to hit on the charge. I would be intrigued to know the math hammer on WS5 w/ Masreeqcraftes vs rerolling all attacks at WS4. I would consider swapping the Chappy's BP for Valours Edge if you wanted more ap2, keep the maul for the S bonus for punching rear-armour.
Death Co I've opted for more bodies to bring the points cost in line with the SG, the extra bodies also help with durability lost from not having as good an armour save as the SG. I've calculated the squad on 11 dc, 1pf
Cost for squad and chaplain : 383
Pros:
Can't lose FNP from sniping of character
Rerolling all hits on the charge, with hit and run allowing for recharging this is pretty big
Rage so +2 attacks on the charge, again with hit and run this is brutal
Both characters have an invul
Weight of attacks put unit in good stead versus horde or elite units with decent invuls (Wraiths, TWC, TH/SS, Other beatstick characters)
S7 on Chap and mass S5 good when hitting rear of most vehicles
Casualties hurt less due to being cheaper per model
Cons
Dante/Chap don't get FnP Potentially for the Chap to be sniped out and losing the precious rerolls
Upgrades for squad (PWs/PF) are pointy
There may be other pros/cons that I've missed, but they're the ones that jump out at me at this moment. Feel free to add and discuss.
The final point I want to bring up is that I think the DC are better for multi charging, although yes you lose more attacks as you don't benefit from rage but I like that you can almost control your damage output this way so you can ensure you remain locked in combat to not get shot and can jump out again to relive the S and I bonuses.
I agree with what your saying, but I think people (including myself) put dante with the sang guard because it just seems right to have nipple armour models together, as well as the fluff etc.
Its difficult to find out which is best.
Maybe astorath with jump pack death company might be decent, but hes quite expensive, and the unwieldy axe puts me off a bit.
In a normal size game , say 1850, I dont know if Id want to invest in both squads, as they are esentially as close as we can get to effective deathstars.
I saw someone on here add a librarian to both squads (or one or the other obviously), that might be something worth investing in as you can get a load of buffs.
I was wondering if mephy and a squad of th/ss termies in a stormraven could be a good option, but I would likely want to add a sanguinary priest, which would take it away from my planned sanguinary guard squad.
All in all though, I agree with your points, but its hard to decide which is best imo
I think another big reason for dante in SG aside from increased ws, attack and fnp is the fact that SG have no invuln so with his EW and 4++ dante can take a few lascannon hits for the squad rather than you losing expensive SG. I would keep tanking ap2 st8 or higher with dante until he gets down to a couple of wounds, unless your saving him for a duel against a strong character. Aside from a bike captain with SS (who still IDs at st10), or an allied in bike/jump CM/capt with shield eternal, there is just no other way to get an invuln on those SG, well, apart from psychic powers that you are not certain of getting.
Jump pack Death Company have butchered most things I have charged them at. Cannot think of a single time I have used them where they haven't been brutally awesome for me.
Death Company are definitely an auto include, in my opinion the best unit in the Elites slot and in the entire army. As for the troop slot, I don't see the point in taking more than two tactical squads. I always take the two troops as the baal detachment formation bonus of +1 initiative on the charge is excellent.
For me it's a core backbone of Mephiston, Death Company, two tactical squads in Rhino/Razorback, Stormraven and then just build the rest around that depending on the points you've got left over to play with.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
InsTincT_OP wrote: I agree with what your saying, but I think people (including myself) put dante with the sang guard because it just seems right to have nipple armour models together, as well as the fluff etc.
Its difficult to find out which is best.
Maybe astorath with jump pack death company might be decent, but hes quite expensive, and the unwieldy axe puts me off a bit.
In a normal size game , say 1850, I dont know if Id want to invest in both squads, as they are esentially as close as we can get to effective deathstars.
I saw someone on here add a librarian to both squads (or one or the other obviously), that might be something worth investing in as you can get a load of buffs.
I was wondering if mephy and a squad of th/ss termies in a stormraven could be a good option, but I would likely want to add a sanguinary priest, which would take it away from my planned sanguinary guard squad.
All in all though, I agree with your points, but its hard to decide which is best imo
I agree. Dante buffs Sanguinary Guard with his invun save and they in turn give him an extra attack with the banner and some 2+ armour wounds to shield him with. With that unit having hit and run thanks to Dante, they can do quite a bit of damage around the table and easily withdraw from combat if things aren't going their way.
I hadn't really thought about Mephiston and TH/SS before, but thinking about it, it does sound awesome. Mephy's biggest weakness is his lack of invun save, so I guess those termies would tank some of those wounds for him. I'm thinking that it depends on the situation, the Mephy TH/SS combo would hit like a hammer, but once they have charged out of the Stormraven and had their fight with whatever enemy unit, they are then pretty slow moving across the rest of the table, unless you can get them back in the Stormraven if it doesn't get shot down from being in hover mode. I personally prefer the sound of Dante and Sanguinary Guard combo due to their movement potential across the board, especially handy for capturing late objectives in the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: At the moment, I am heavily considering using a combined arms detachment with the angels fury strikeforce and the baal strikeforce. This would give me obsec on the tacticals whilst still having the +1 initiative on my assaulty units. The only negative I see is that I would have to disembark them behind cover as I likely wouldnt be assaulting out of it.
"Cannot think of a single time I have used them where they haven't been brutally awesome for me. "
Those times when people spoiling assault you. That's when.
lol - well I have only played them against CSM's and have been lucky to charge them from behind cover or out of a Storm raven with not a great deal of overwatch being able to stop them. Assault not been spoiled for me yet, but I suspect it will be all together a lot more tricky against the likes of Tau, Eldar et al.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
InsTincT_OP wrote: I suppose, but I cant think of any other hard-hitting assaulty units to put him with. Some people seem to like him with sternguard in drop pods.
I play him with a 5 man tactical squad in a Razorback. The fast engine (with additional firepower) gets him across the table relatively quick and tactical marines work pretty well with him.
He's a close combat character martel, hes not geared towards shooting. If you only want the most uber competitive army,then theres no point taking BA, just take eldar.
InsTincT_OP wrote: He's a close combat character martel, hes not geared towards shooting. If you only want the most uber competitive army,then theres no point taking BA, just take eldar.
No, he's not. He's a support character. He makes your unit basically immune to psychic powers. He can support the Sternguard just as well as TH/SS terminators. Better, in fact, since he is a legit CC threat to units without 2+ armor. TH/SS already threaten units in CC. Divination Mephy with Sternguard is $$. Sometimes, biomancy works too. Biomancy can provide a pretty good amount of shooting as well.
To be more specific, Dante is the close combat character now, not Mephy.
Ghost_Raptur wrote: Played two games using a couple combinations of Corbulo and Death Company. Both worked really well, especially when keeping the DC units near enough to Corbulo to benefit from the +1 WS and I.
Game 1: Corbulo, with Assault Terminators in a Land Raider, 3 squads of 10 DC with JP, 1 with Astorath.
Game 2: 2 DC Squads with JP, 1 DC squad on foot in Land Raider with Corbulo.
Probably more synergy with the 1st setup though. I was playing against Space Wolves, so the Initiative at 6 on the charge didn't matter too much, but when receiving attacks, it was nice to still go first.
What was the space wolf list?
Game 1: If I recall correctly, SW player had DP Grey Hunters, one LR with the Arjac formation, and another LR stuffed with blood claws, as well as 2x Long Fangs with MLs.
Game 2: He ran a foot list with 2 groups of TWC, had attached 1 with either a named HQ on a TWC or a lord on a TWC. 3-4 groups of GH, 1 big group of wolves and 2x Long Fangs again with MLs.
I may have missed a couple units from these.
In regards to the DC vs SG, my games with both have both proven they both work great. Both have pros and cos given a certain situation and honestly, neither to me edges out the other for what would be termed auto include, which is how it should be. Make a list centered around how you want to play, given the units support and they'll do well. This also applies to VV as much as people seem to not like them. Putting a Sanguinary Priest with them actually gets more hits through compared to DC for a comparative pts/model or pts/wound basis (assuming 10 VV models) on the charge (and then of course on the following rounds). Also, remember they are the JP unit that can actually get guaranteed invulns compared to DC and SG. I'll admit however, VV only become on par when the priest is included.
InsTincT_OP wrote: He's a close combat character martel, hes not geared towards shooting. If you only want the most uber competitive army,then theres no point taking BA, just take eldar.
No, he's not. He's a support character. He makes your unit basically immune to psychic powers. He can support the Sternguard just as well as TH/SS terminators. Better, in fact, since he is a legit CC threat to units without 2+ armor. TH/SS already threaten units in CC. Divination Mephy with Sternguard is $$. Sometimes, biomancy works too. Biomancy can provide a pretty good amount of shooting as well.
To be more specific, Dante is the close combat character now, not Mephy.
I agree that Mephiston, by his nature as a psyker makes him a support character. However, his abilities stemming from his stats and Sanguine Sword gives options and capabilities that other dedicated CC characters such as Dante would have difficulty with. Again pros and cons given a situation. Case in point, Mephiston is a better choice for attacking knights (should strip 3 HP off) and heavier vehicles. With force off, he will murder multiple wound models.That brings up another point is the difficulty for gauging who is better in a vacuum, with how players utilize character's abilities, and how they buff them in various directions to bring different capabilities to the table. Dante is a tank and AP2 killer by default, that gives him a certain role he can fulfill. He has Eternal warrior and Hit and Run is amazing. Mephiston by default is offensive power and can deliver instant death. The psychic powers you choose can take him in any direction you want. I use both and love both, really depends on how I want to cut my Xenos steaks for the day.
Poly Ranger wrote: I think another big reason for dante in SG aside from increased ws, attack and fnp is the fact that SG have no invuln so with his EW and 4++ dante can take a few lascannon hits for the squad rather than you losing expensive SG. I would keep tanking ap2 st8 or higher with dante until he gets down to a couple of wounds, unless your saving him for a duel against a strong character. Aside from a bike captain with SS (who still IDs at st10), or an allied in bike/jump CM/capt with shield eternal, there is just no other way to get an invuln on those SG, well, apart from psychic powers that you are not certain of getting.
True, but can't the same be said for Dante with DC? My proposition is Dante with DC vs Dante with SG. I skipped over what Dante does as we all know he's an awesome las-cannon tanking beatstick. DC also lack an invul so a 'wound spong' is really great to ensure that when you hit you hit like a ton of bricks.
InsTincT_OP wrote: He's a close combat character martel, hes not geared towards shooting. If you only want the most uber competitive army,then theres no point taking BA, just take eldar.
No, he's not. He's a support character. He makes your unit basically immune to psychic powers. He can support the Sternguard just as well as TH/SS terminators. Better, in fact, since he is a legit CC threat to units without 2+ armor. TH/SS already threaten units in CC. Divination Mephy with Sternguard is $$. Sometimes, biomancy works too. Biomancy can provide a pretty good amount of shooting as well.
To be more specific, Dante is the close combat character now, not Mephy.
I'm with you 100% here. Mephy is a support character who is handy in a punch up, but he's best use (from my experience) is with the Sternguard.
He's been so good in for me that in my last game my opponent pretty much focused all his fire at Meph and the Sternguard and allowed me to butcher his other flank (with DC & Dante no less)
Kasrkin52 wrote: is it worth taking mephiston over a standard librarian with jump pack?
Depends on the list and what you want to use the unit for. For me Mephiston works best attached to a tactical squad with a Rhino/Razorback moving him and his unit across the table quickly with their lucifer pattern engines. If I was playing an assault focused jump pack list then the librarian with jump pack would make more sense, especially if I wanted to buff the jump pack unit he was attached to. However, I haven't had much experience with jump pack librarians, if I use a jump pack HQ I usually go for a priest with jump pack, chaplain or Astorath and have my librarians in transports attached to non-jump marines such as tacticals or terminators.
For me mephiston has exceled in big games when I can use him with 5-6 thss terminators in a lr with priest or lib in termi armour to cast the quickening on meph or roll div
Meph with iron arm, end/warp speed and the quickening is deadly. Used him like this in a few big games and he's destroyed squads of twc and Wraiths but at a cost
Small games I find him limited. Podded him with dc, cs and vg with some success and run him in a stormraven with dc which was fun but in small games <1850 I'd stick with a reg lib to buff dante and sg or grav bikes.
Depends how you play but I feel his lack of inv means he needs a fair bit of protection to really utilise his brutal potential, my favourite hq but he isn't always an auto inc for me sadly as I can't always commit points to his cause
I agree, you could use him with th/ss termies or models with storm shields etc.
Only thing to look out for with that is precision shots, as I believe they deny look out sir?
I agree, you could use him with th/ss termies or models with storm shields etc.
Only thing to look out for with that is precision shots, as I believe they deny look out sir?
True, but even with 10 sniper scouts, I'd probably have trouble rolling enough precisions to whittle him down very quickly. More than likely someone would drop a pie plate on me before I managed it.
Just my $.02, but I'm in the Martel camp on this one. I think Mephy does a better job buffing a shooting group as they don't need to move as much, and then he also creates added defense for that group if it gets assaulted, so a really powerful shooting group spends less time swamped by a melee group.
I agree, you could use him with th/ss termies or models with storm shields etc.
Only thing to look out for with that is precision shots, as I believe they deny look out sir?
Sternguard work just fine. Why would I want him with TH/SS terminators?
Anyone have any tactical advice for using Scouts (non-sniper) with the BA dex?
I'm built up (and magnetised) 2 boxes of normal scouts and have been theorising how best to utilise them, here's a few ideas that I've come up with. I'm interested if anyone has tried these or has different suggestions.
1)
BP /CCW. Basically a harassment unit, not especially durable but have a decent damage output / points ratio, assuming you can get the charge (potentially a big if). With 3 attacks each at S5 and I5 (BSF only) they're decent against non specialist CC units. Potentially good for up-rooting units in objectives, especially with Infiltrate+Scout, just remember there's no charging T1, so perhaps giving them camo cloaks and hiding in terrain in your opponents DZ when you infiltrate+scout.
Not sure if the squad sizes should be increased above the min to give a few ablative wounds. This raises a few interesting ideas, as a 5man unit is much easier to wipe out than a larger squad, equally the larger the unit the more fire your opponent has to dedicate to removing them, which is less fire going into the rest of your army.
I though about upgrading to a vet with PS for extra MEQ killing but frankly I think the points would be better spend on more bodies.
2)
Shotguns. S4 ap-, assault 2. I like how the actual weapon option looks in the kit, and 2 shots before assaulting is nice, but I think I'd prefer the extra S5 attack when I charge rather than an extra S4 ap- shooting attack, especially when the range is so limited. I could see them being useful camping a mid table or out the way objective where you'll get an opportunity to shoot something before assaulting it. I don't see much use for upgrades in this unit either and I think you'll certainly want a squad bigger than the min since you're losing a bunch of attacks.
3)
Bolter Scouts. Possibly the worst load out for BA. Rapid-fire means no assaulting after you fire your Bolters but it does give you a longer range. They synergise better with the Heavy Weapons, and I do like the Poison Heavy Bolter. I would consider them as a backfield objective holder, possibly with a ML (without Skyfire) to snap at Fliers (you losing less snapping sat BS3 than having to snap with BS4). However I think Sniper Scouts would be better than bolter scouts for this role.
Other thoughts.
I think camo cloaks are a must for scouts, you'll almost certainly be infiltrating/scouting so the buff to your cover save is welcome.
The teleport homer is interesting, especially if taking the arcangels strike force and you have a lone Terminator character without a termie squad, having a terminator librarian appear in the back lines/ midfield puts him in a better place to cast powers, and he can join the scout unit for tanking small arms fire and LoSing ap2. Not necessarily a great option, but I think it's interesting.
I think another upgrade that's always worth taking on the sgt is Meltabombs.
evildrcheese wrote: Anyone have any tactical advice for using Scouts (non-sniper) with the BA dex?
Spoiler:
I'm built up (and magnetised) 2 boxes of normal scouts and have been theorising how best to utilise them, here's a few ideas that I've come up with. I'm interested if anyone has tried these or has different suggestions.
1)
BP /CCW. Basically a harassment unit, not especially durable but have a decent damage output / points ratio, assuming you can get the charge (potentially a big if). With 3 attacks each at S5 and I5 (BSF only) they're decent against non specialist CC units. Potentially good for up-rooting units in objectives, especially with Infiltrate+Scout, just remember there's no charging T1, so perhaps giving them camo cloaks and hiding in terrain in your opponents DZ when you infiltrate+scout.
Not sure if the squad sizes should be increased above the min to give a few ablative wounds. This raises a few interesting ideas, as a 5man unit is much easier to wipe out than a larger squad, equally the larger the unit the more fire your opponent has to dedicate to removing them, which is less fire going into the rest of your army.
I though about upgrading to a vet with PS for extra MEQ killing but frankly I think the points would be better spend on more bodies.
2)
Shotguns. S4 ap-, assault 2. I like how the actual weapon option looks in the kit, and 2 shots before assaulting is nice, but I think I'd prefer the extra S5 attack when I charge rather than an extra S4 ap- shooting attack, especially when the range is so limited. I could see them being useful camping a mid table or out the way objective where you'll get an opportunity to shoot something before assaulting it. I don't see much use for upgrades in this unit either and I think you'll certainly want a squad bigger than the min since you're losing a bunch of attacks.
3)
Bolter Scouts. Possibly the worst load out for BA. Rapid-fire means no assaulting after you fire your Bolters but it does give you a longer range. They synergise better with the Heavy Weapons, and I do like the Poison Heavy Bolter. I would consider them as a backfield objective holder, possibly with a ML (without Skyfire) to snap at Fliers (you losing less snapping sat BS3 than having to snap with BS4). However I think Sniper Scouts would be better than bolter scouts for this role.
Other thoughts.
I think camo cloaks are a must for scouts, you'll almost certainly be infiltrating/scouting so the buff to your cover save is welcome.
The teleport homer is interesting, especially if taking the arcangels strike force and you have a lone Terminator character without a termie squad, having a terminator librarian appear in the back lines/ midfield puts him in a better place to cast powers, and he can join the scout unit for tanking small arms fire and LoSing ap2. Not necessarily a great option, but I think it's interesting.
I think another upgrade that's always worth taking on the sgt is Meltabombs.
I think that's all I've got. Thoughts?
D
I run a 10 man unit combat squadded with capes, 5 snipers and Powerfist on the Sarge. Seems like a point sink for scouts I know, but the snipers can set up somewhere and be moderately distracting while the Hidden Fist Sarge and his team of meat shields go cause distractions.
I think there are probably better things I could be spending my points on, but the thing is... I kinda like the lil guys. And when they actually do manage to get into Assault, they still do pretty well against light units or the occasional walker. At that point, all I really want from them is to strip a few wounds somewhere and soak up fire that woulda been used on better units. The Hidden fist Sarge is "just" worrisome enough to make people divert some of their fire at em.
Great bunch a guys. Their hopes and dreams are shattered in almost every battle, but they always show up at the next one
evildrcheese wrote: Anyone have any tactical advice for using Scouts (non-sniper) with the BA dex?
Spoiler:
I'm built up (and magnetised) 2 boxes of normal scouts and have been theorising how best to utilise them, here's a few ideas that I've come up with. I'm interested if anyone has tried these or has different suggestions.
1)
BP /CCW. Basically a harassment unit, not especially durable but have a decent damage output / points ratio, assuming you can get the charge (potentially a big if). With 3 attacks each at S5 and I5 (BSF only) they're decent against non specialist CC units. Potentially good for up-rooting units in objectives, especially with Infiltrate+Scout, just remember there's no charging T1, so perhaps giving them camo cloaks and hiding in terrain in your opponents DZ when you infiltrate+scout.
Not sure if the squad sizes should be increased above the min to give a few ablative wounds. This raises a few interesting ideas, as a 5man unit is much easier to wipe out than a larger squad, equally the larger the unit the more fire your opponent has to dedicate to removing them, which is less fire going into the rest of your army.
I though about upgrading to a vet with PS for extra MEQ killing but frankly I think the points would be better spend on more bodies.
2)
Shotguns. S4 ap-, assault 2. I like how the actual weapon option looks in the kit, and 2 shots before assaulting is nice, but I think I'd prefer the extra S5 attack when I charge rather than an extra S4 ap- shooting attack, especially when the range is so limited. I could see them being useful camping a mid table or out the way objective where you'll get an opportunity to shoot something before assaulting it. I don't see much use for upgrades in this unit either and I think you'll certainly want a squad bigger than the min since you're losing a bunch of attacks.
3)
Bolter Scouts. Possibly the worst load out for BA. Rapid-fire means no assaulting after you fire your Bolters but it does give you a longer range. They synergise better with the Heavy Weapons, and I do like the Poison Heavy Bolter. I would consider them as a backfield objective holder, possibly with a ML (without Skyfire) to snap at Fliers (you losing less snapping sat BS3 than having to snap with BS4). However I think Sniper Scouts would be better than bolter scouts for this role.
Other thoughts.
I think camo cloaks are a must for scouts, you'll almost certainly be infiltrating/scouting so the buff to your cover save is welcome.
The teleport homer is interesting, especially if taking the arcangels strike force and you have a lone Terminator character without a termie squad, having a terminator librarian appear in the back lines/ midfield puts him in a better place to cast powers, and he can join the scout unit for tanking small arms fire and LoSing ap2. Not necessarily a great option, but I think it's interesting.
I think another upgrade that's always worth taking on the sgt is Meltabombs.
I think that's all I've got. Thoughts?
D
I run a 10 man unit combat squadded with capes, 5 snipers and Powerfist on the Sarge. Seems like a point sink for scouts I know, but the snipers can set up somewhere and be moderately distracting while the Hidden Fist Sarge and his team of meat shields go cause distractions.
I think there are probably better things I could be spending my points on, but the thing is... I kinda like the lil guys. And when they actually do manage to get into Assault, they still do pretty well against light units or the occasional walker. At that point, all I really want from them is to strip a few wounds somewhere and soak up fire that woulda been used on better units. The Hidden fist Sarge is "just" worrisome enough to make people divert some of their fire at em.
Great bunch a guys. Their hopes and dreams are shattered in almost every battle, but they always show up at the next one
I'm glad that you realise that this isn't a particularly cost efficient load-out, as I don't want want critique to sound too negative.
First off I don't like the duality of heavy weapons (no assault after shooting) with an expensive melee upgrade. Especially since the scout sgt is probably the worst platform for a fist; here's why. PF suffer from being challenged out and killed before striking, scout sgts are more susceptible to this due to WS3 (most things are hitting you on 3+), also basic sgts only have 1 attack base and you can't benefit from 2 CCWs. You mitigate some of this by upgrading to a vet sgt, giving you +1WS and +1A, but then your sinking more points into a 1W model with a4+ save who's striking at I1...
If you want the fist for threatening vehicles Melta bombs are so much better.
I agree, you could use him with th/ss termies or models with storm shields etc.
Only thing to look out for with that is precision shots, as I believe they deny look out sir?
Just for clarification, Precision Shots can still be Look Out Sir'd.
I have hard time getting into combat with Power Armored Jump Pack units, I wouldn't count on five guys with 4+ armor to get even near the opponent.
One or two might just make it after Overwatch, but even then they don't have enough attacks to cause significant damage.
"Bolter Scouts. Possibly the worst load out for BA. Rapid-fire means no assaulting after you fire your Bolters"
I really don't want to assault every time. Take Camo Cloaks and Inflintrate to an objective.
Snipers might be better but I hardly ever see Sniper Scouts actually doing anything.
soomemafia wrote: I have hard time getting into combat with Power Armored Jump Pack units, I wouldn't count on five guys with 4+ armor to get even near the opponent.
One or two might just make it after Overwatch, but even then they don't have enough attacks to cause significant damage.
"Bolter Scouts. Possibly the worst load out for BA. Rapid-fire means no assaulting after you fire your Bolters"
I really don't want to assault every time. Take Camo Cloaks and Inflintrate to an objective.
Snipers might be better but I hardly ever see Sniper Scouts actually doing anything.
There's a significant different between the roles and uses of scouts vs your other JP infantry. First off, since scouts have infiltrate and scout you can get them either into your opponents DZ or midfield (and importantly straight into cover) whereas your JP units have to hoof it up field on their jump, which as we know isn't exactly slow but they're more susceptible to fire. The other important difference is that your JP units are (generally speaking) the units who are going to be doing the 'heavy lifting' for your army and every casualty is detrimentally to your army's performance. Scouts on the other hand the perceived threat is low in terms of damage output, but they're great for forcing your opponent do change his behaviour. For instance infiltrating a scout squad mid field into a ruin, their mere presence their might change your opponents game plan and worst case scenario they're wiped out and you give up first blood (which considering with a cloak and going to ground/night fighting they could potentially have a 2+ may not happen) they've drawn fire away from your heavy lifters.
Then to top it off if they are ignored, they stand a good change of getting to charge something eventually and with reasonable damage output.
And yes a scout unit can sit on an objective, but I still think bolter scouts are the worst choice for BA and they have "better" attacks when charging and besides, if I don't shoot with them and just camp maybe my opponent will forget about them.
I find 5 man scout units with ccw & bp with melta bomb on the sarge perfect. Especially with running fast closing DC and/or SG. Try keep the sarge at the back. A well placed melta bomb often works wonders, especially in combination with a load of st5 attacks on rear armour, and if there are no vehicles around, the +1s and +1I against non assault units is nice for 60pts.
The unit rarely gets wiped out by one unit shooting at it so the opponent then has to overcompensate to make sure the squad is finished off, thus less shots taken by the units that actually matter. They can also help give other units a cover save and lock up minor units that could otherwise be an irritant.
I run 2 of these or 1 and a sniper unit. But I really dislike tacs so I may be biased.
I'm glad that you realise that this isn't a particularly cost efficient load-out, as I don't want want critique to sound too negative.
lol, yeah man, I'm well aware. The way I see it, I have to have a troop or two anyways, so troops that basically soak up a few shots for a small cost is alright. I've been told, I oughta think about just taking two tac squads with razorbacks so they actually serve a firing purpose, or take absolutely bare bones scouts to minimize the cost if they're primarily going to camp, but I do genuinely like the models, so I sorta looked for a happy medium. I actually do have a loaded out tac squad as well, but again, mainly because I like the models enough that I just kinda want them on the field somewhere.
My powerfist scout sarge is a nicely kitbashed model actually. Back in 3rd edition there was a catachan captain mini with a fist held up skyward.... I sawed his arm off, drilled my scout sarge down, attached the "rather enormously bulging muscled arm" to him and the power conduit cable to a power pack on his back. He actually looks really cool, I'd sorta hate not to use him
I am kinda curious though on your thoughts regarding the combat squadding. I basically take it as a single unit, combat squad em and run the meatshield fist off in some other direction. Do you think it would actually make more sense to take them as two separate troops so I could lay em out in different areas of the field? I hadn't really thought about it much before, as I only really have them to soak up shots I don't want a better unit taking, but it would kinda make more tactical sense in any case.
Sure they have the cover save while in the ruins but the very second they come out means that they are essentially dead.
Leave assaulting to the units that may actually do something there.
Poly Ranger wrote:I find 5 man scout units with ccw & bp with melta bomb on the sarge perfect. Especially with running fast closing DC and/or SG. Try keep the sarge at the back. A well placed melta bomb often works wonders, especially in combination with a load of st5 attacks on rear armour, and if there are no vehicles around, the +1s and +1I against non assault units is nice for 60pts.
The unit rarely gets wiped out by one unit shooting at it so the opponent then has to overcompensate to make sure the squad is finished off, thus less shots taken by the units that actually matter. They can also help give other units a cover save and lock up minor units that could otherwise be an irritant.
I run 2 of these or 1 and a sniper unit. But I really dislike tacs so I may be biased.
100% with you on this on, I think a couple of Scout squads have alot of tactical flexibility, even if they don't achieve much on their own if they can tie up a few units and stop them shooting or draw fire away from your heavy lifters
I'm glad that you realise that this isn't a particularly cost efficient load-out, as I don't want want critique to sound too negative.
lol, yeah man, I'm well aware. The way I see it, I have to have a troop or two anyways, so troops that basically soak up a few shots for a small cost is alright. I've been told, I oughta think about just taking two tac squads with razorbacks so they actually serve a firing purpose, or take absolutely bare bones scouts to minimize the cost if they're primarily going to camp, but I do genuinely like the models, so I sorta looked for a happy medium. I actually do have a loaded out tac squad as well, but again, mainly because I like the models enough that I just kinda want them on the field somewhere.
My powerfist scout sarge is a nicely kitbashed model actually. Back in 3rd edition there was a catachan captain mini with a fist held up skyward.... I sawed his arm off, drilled my scout sarge down, attached the "rather enormously bulging muscled arm" to him and the power conduit cable to a power pack on his back. He actually looks really cool, I'd sorta hate not to use him
I am kinda curious though on your thoughts regarding the combat squadding. I basically take it as a single unit, combat squad em and run the meatshield fist off in some other direction. Do you think it would actually make more sense to take them as two separate troops so I could lay em out in different areas of the field? I hadn't really thought about it much before, as I only really have them to soak up shots I don't want a better unit taking, but it would kinda make more tactical sense in any case.
The rule of cool for your powerfist dude seems to deciding factor, which I can totally be onboard with, everything doesn't have to be optimised all the time.
Combat squading is neither one or the other as far as I can see. As once you decide to split the unit they act independently so I assume they could infiltrate out in different directions if you wanted. However, with your set up I'd be inclined to run them as a single unit, more ablative wounds for the fist and might be sufficient to draw alot of fire away from the rest of your army.
The nice thing about combat squading is it gives a level if flexibility, the most obvious being, need more units to hold objectives? combat squad the unit. Playing kill points? Don't combat squad. After that you probably need to try and weigh up the benefits of any particular battle.
Played a game last night, no great revelations I had a good time.
I was running something like the following:
Chaplain, Veritas Vitea, Melta Bombs
Methpiston
8 DC, 1PF (Chaplain here)
Fragioso, drop pod
9 Sternguard, 3 combo plas, Rhino (Meph here)
DC dread, magna crapple, PFs.
5 Tac, Melta, Rhino
5 Tac, Flamer
2x MM attack bikes
Bike squad, plas, combi plas
Stormeaven, MM, AC, Hurricane Bolters, (DC Dread in Here).
My opponent ran:
Librarian Lvl2 - Biomancy
Sternguard, 2x H Flamer, 4 x Combi flamer, combi plas, combi grav, drop pod
MM dread
5 TH/SS Termies in Redeemer (Libby here)
10 man TAC squad, Melta, MM 10 Man Tac Squad, flamer, HB,
Dev squad, missile with flakk, 2 x Las, 1x Plas can
LR Redeemer
I think that's everything. As you can see relatively friendly game. I got night fighting and the 3 units infiltrating warlord traits, I really do love the veritas vitea, using that I infiltrated bikes out of line of sight near his tac squad, Stern and meth 18" away from the same unit and the 2 MM bikes in a jungle terrain 18" away from on of his LR.
Due to having mainly 3+ dudes, the two redeemers were a cause of consternation, but I was hoping between my meltas, Mepth @S10 and the S10 DC dread would be sufficient to hand them.
My first turn, I dropped the furioso in, moved the bikes and Sternguard into range of the tac squad and blew them away. I also moves other others onto objectives securing 3 allowing me score score d3 points which I got the full 3 and first blood. 4 points to nothing before my opponent even rolls a dice. A good start!
My opponent responded by blowing up my Furioso with his MM dread, he had to do this in HtH and I was able to immobilise him in return. His LRs punished my MM attacks bikes for failing to blow them up, I really should take more than 2 of these as their so damn good and I really missed them once they had been taken off the table. He dropped his Sternguard in on one of my objectives, killing the rhino and 1 tac Marine. He secured that objective (I disembarked away from the objectives to avoid the combo flamers of the combat squaded Sternguard), which earned him a vp.
My next turn, SR came in, failed to take the last 2 hp from the redeemer that my MM bikes shot at, DC and Dante headed back to my deployment zone to take care of the Sternguard that podded in, I split Dante off to kill one combat squad and the DC handled the other. I snagged another objective that turn by holding an objective. Made the mistake of committing the Meph Gaurd to the other flank where the full redeemer (with the THSS termies in).
His turn he shot my SR with Devs, they were sat on an sky fire nexus objective, I last a hull point and was shaken. He manoeuvred his 2hp redeemer ro support the second redeemer. I don't think anything else of note happened...
I needed to get rid of his drop pod to fulfil a tac ob, and couldn't do it in my shooting phase and then proceeded to fail a 3" charge with the DC and Dante :| which was damn annoying.
In my psychic phase I peril'd but succeeded casting prescience on meth/sterng and lost 2 warp charge points , I then failed to cast S10 and give them a 4++, so didn't charge the LR...
In better news my DC dread disembarked from the SR and assaulted the LR down to 2hp and killed that, leaving my SR in hover mod right in front of his Devs, I shapshot everything at them, but failed to do any wounds. Even more painfully I wasn't able to complete any tac obs.
In his excitement to deal with Mepth and the S Guard he forgot to shoot his Devs at the SR. He shot A Tac squad at Mepth and S Guard, taking another wound off the big man (first was from perils) taking his down to 1W, so I had to LoS a bunch of the flamestorm in fearing of rolling that 1, didn't matter in the end though as he charged his Librarian and THSS termies in and wiped the squad. I really need to be more careful with that units, as even when I roll the 4++ power there's no guarantees I'll be able to cast it and then it's only a 4++. I'm think I might make them less of a points investment and run a small squad of Stern guard...
We ended there, due to running out of time. I won 5-2, had turn 4 played out I think I could've got 2 more VP, one from a numbered objective card and the second from having 3 units in my DZ and no enemy units, so I'd have to kill the drop pod.
As I said I think my biggest concern currently is mu Sternguard are too pointy and a smaller unit would be more beneficial.
Baal strike force
Option 1- (my preferred)
HQ- 190
Sang priest w/ combi grav+bike- 90
ML2 lib with Gallans staff- 100
Troops-390
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Fast attack-561
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
Elites-330
Fragnaught in pod w/ MM- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ MM- 165
Heavy support-390
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
List 2-
HQs-
ML2 lib w/ Gallans staff (goes with command squad) on bike-120
ML1 lib-65 (goes with random tac unit)
Troops-390
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
FA-345
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
Elites-495
Command squad w/ jump packs-125
Fragnaught in pod w/ HF- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ HF- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ HF- 165
Heavy support-315
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
raiden wrote: Baal strike force
Option 1- (my preferred)
HQ- 190
Sang priest w/ combi grav+bike- 90
ML2 lib with Gallans staff- 100
Troops-390
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Fast attack-561
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
Elites-330
Fragnaught in pod w/ MM- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ MM- 165
Heavy support-390
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
List 2-
HQs-
ML2 lib w/ Gallans staff (goes with command squad) on bike-120
ML1 lib-65 (goes with random tac unit)
Troops-390
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
FA-345
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
Elites-495
Command squad w/ jump packs-125
Fragnaught in pod w/ HF- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ HF- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ HF- 165
Heavy support-315
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
I assume you want to know which list we prefer?
I like the look of list , lots of in your face units. Decent model count, pretty good fire power. It might struggle a little bit against AV14, a redeemer in particular would cause you problems, not that you see many of them, but I did come up against a dual redeemer list recently which I struggled against despite having a decent amount of Melta...
What's happening with the Libby in this list, could you find the points to give him a bike? Maybe drop a biker from the bike squads?
Notice there's no DC in either list. Even with our new boom we seem to suffer from a low model count armies, even more painful now we don't have easy access to FnP for multiple squads.
raiden wrote: Baal strike force
Option 1- (my preferred)
HQ- 190
Sang priest w/ combi grav+bike- 90
ML2 lib with Gallans staff- 100
Troops-390
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Fast attack-561
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
Elites-330
Fragnaught in pod w/ MM- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ MM- 165
Heavy support-390
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
List 2-
HQs-
ML2 lib w/ Gallans staff (goes with command squad) on bike-120
ML1 lib-65 (goes with random tac unit)
Troops-390
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
FA-345
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
Elites-495
Command squad w/ jump packs-125
Fragnaught in pod w/ HF- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ HF- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ HF- 165
Heavy support-315
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
I assume you want to know which list we prefer?
I like the look of list , lots of in your face units. Decent model count, pretty good fire power. It might struggle a little bit against AV14, a redeemer in particular would cause you problems, not that you see many of them, but I did come up against a dual redeemer list recently which I struggled against despite having a decent amount of Melta...
What's happening with the Libby in this list, could you find the points to give him a bike? Maybe drop a biker from the bike squads?
Notice there's no DC in either list. Even with our new boom we seem to suffer from a low model count armies, even more painful now we don't have easy access to FnP for multiple squads.
D
yeah, neither list has DC mainly because I wanted the odd number pods. (and, frankly fragiosos are amaztastic, I actually run mine Frag cannon+MM now) however it's quite easy to swap them for DC, you lose a bit of alpha strike and firepower, but gain more bodies with FnP and have better objective control. you can take 3x 6 man death company in place of the fragnaughts for 2 points less, gaining another auspex if you so wish. Or some 5pt upgrade. (say, a melta bomb maybe?)
two things I will probably change is-
give dev squads lascannons, (60pts total, drop 1 bike from each squad. Worth it IMO), put the lib in a pod with tacticals, roll on telepathy and psychic shriek away.
also, with the 3 points saved from the bikes -> lascannons I can grab an auspex for the libby! -1 cover save is awesome! (do auspexes stack? Can they give a -2 with two separate ones used on the same unit?)
Martel732 wrote: Mephy can't penetrate 2+ armor. That eliminates him from dedicated CC right there. But he's really good at punching out vehicles and most MCs.
How many competitive lists do you face with a lot of 2+ armor? His good at punching 95% of the models on pretty much any table. No invul can be a problem, even with los.
Martel732 wrote: Mephy can't penetrate 2+ armor. That eliminates him from dedicated CC right there. But he's really good at punching out vehicles and most MCs.
How many competitive lists do you face with a lot of 2+ armor? His good at punching 95% of the models on pretty much any table. No invul can be a problem, even with los.
Things that Mephiston is great against that are commonly played:
-Bikes
-Tactical Marines
-Spawn
-Hive Tyrants
-Carnifexs
-Vehicles of ALL types
-Knights
-Flesh Hounds
-Basically every troop choice ever
-Wraithknights
The last one is especially huge now. Wile an active force weapon wont kill a gargantuan creature outright, it will deny fnp and cause d3 wounds per unsaved wound. With quickening, sanguine sword and easy access to prescience he can usually take down a WK before it gets to swing.
Martel732 wrote: Mephy can't penetrate 2+ armor. That eliminates him from dedicated CC right there. But he's really good at punching out vehicles and most MCs.
How many competitive lists do you face with a lot of 2+ armor? His good at punching 95% of the models on pretty much any table. No invul can be a problem, even with los.
It's every IC calling him out in a challenge. There's where you see 2+ armor. And Dreadknights.
Hey guys, have any of you ran Chaplains in 7th succesfully?
I was considering a list with 10 ASM, 10 DC, Sanguinary Priest and a Chaplain with Veritas Vitae.
I would try to get the "Inflintrate Warlord + 3 units" and inflintrate 20 fearless models with FnP close to my opponent.
Could it work?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, another question.
I'm going to ally some Iron Hands to get Centurions in my army. Is the TL Lascannon valid build? I prefer it over Gravs for the range, but I'm not sure if it's worth it...
Three twin-linked Lascannons and three ML's should provide good AT.
It costs more than tri-Las Predator, but has more firepower, accuracy and survability, with only slightly less mobility. And with Chapter tactics (WS or IF ?) they become even more dangerous.
I don't play SM usually (considering Blood Angels/Sentinals of Terra/Mantis Warriors though) and have faced against the Relic Whirlwind Scorpius with my Nids and Necrons.
The upgrade you take for it is the Legacy of War: Battle of Keylek. Lemme tell you, 2-4 Barrage S8 AP3 Ignore Cover blasts is brutal to deal with.
soomemafia wrote: Hey guys, have any of you ran Chaplains in 7th succesfully?
I was considering a list with 10 ASM, 10 DC, Sanguinary Priest and a Chaplain with Veritas Vitae.
I would try to get the "Inflintrate Warlord + 3 units" and inflintrate 20 fearless models with FnP close to my opponent.
Could it work?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, another question.
I'm going to ally some Iron Hands to get Centurions in my army. Is the TL Lascannon valid build? I prefer it over Gravs for the range, but I'm not sure if it's worth it...
Chaplains I think are totally viable, I've been running to them with greats success with DC and Dante, Hit and Run with Rage and rerolling to hit in the first round of combat is money (and no, I'm not going to stop beating this drum).
ASM are a bit weak as an assault unit, the best they've performed with me was when I had a Libby and a priest, and I got unleash rage. Those extra attacks made such a difference. Since getting unleash rage with a Libby is nit reliable I sometimes just them to fill the Fast slot in a FTSF, which gives them a chance of getting rage on the charge...
Automatically Appended Next Post: My tactic for this list is try get first go.. But if I go second then it might be risk to lose stormraven.. 3 stormraven in battle and try survive the anti-tank enemy..
Once it is my turn then I'll use special rule to use reserve roll for whole reserve unit and drop everything at once!
Assault squad with priests in drop pod do busy things.
Assault squad in drop pod or jump pack for capture the objective..
Assault Terminator to shred main hoards like Tyranids and Ork.
Tactic squad - capture objective or bolt em.
Flamer tactic squad for hoards control.
Melta tactic squad for tank hunt.
And the rest of gunship doing multitasking. Kill flyer unit or tank hunt or doing killing.. Heh.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Do all of that in first turn. Use white dwarf issued 47 formation.
But... Isn't the formation separate from your regular army?
I mean that the Tacticals should not be counted as part of your army, meaning that you'd need two Troop choices more.
Looks good, but you definetly need the 1pt bolt pistol on the priest, and definetly a few meltaguns for the assault marines. If the assault terminators and priest are footslogging, then it might be better to get a squad of dc and put the priest in one of the ravens.
Solidcrash wrote:Yes, I'll use archangel stormraven formation to allow deep strike all of reserves unit in turn 1. And allow to charge when deep strike.
Solidcrash wrote:Really? Formation do not count toward slot? If so, I'll use expansion one! Where all elite slot and few HQ. No troop slot. Heh
Aw.. Look like Archangel stormraven formation can't fit in 1,500 pts.. Until unbound..(unacceptable for me ) I've try to use Archangel Strike Force but priest can't take terminator suit... So have to replace with captain or chaplains in terminator armour...
InsTincT_OP wrote:Looks good, but you definetly need the 1pt bolt pistol on the priest, and definetly a few meltaguns for the assault marines. If the assault terminators and priest are footslogging, then it might be better to get a squad of dc and put the priest in one of the ravens.
Yeah but have to remove and lose assault terminator squad and Archangel Storm formation "deep strike in first turn" are useless if I don't have deep strike unit.... Bah
It was good list for 2000 pts or 1750 pts because I can add two more troop..
th3maninblak wrote: How does everyone feel about the death company formation? The name escapes me but it goes as follows.
-Chaplain
-3x squads of Death Company
-2x Death Company Dreads
-1 Stormraven
All models in the detachment gain the crusader USR and "mini rampage", getting +1 attack if outnumbered.
I am one death company dread away from finishing it. I wanna know if its worth the $40
I haven't tried it, but does sound pretty cool. The question is, what size DC squads should we be aiming at for it, I'd be enclined to go for fairly large squads of 10min. My thinking is that you'll take casualties on the way anyway, and due to the sweeping advance bonus this list excels against xenos lists, who you'll be able to sweep.
Since there's only 1 storm raven, it might work nicely with FTSF to get have extra drop pods come in so you can put the second DC dread in a pod and have it arrive with Fragiosos/Melta ASM.
It does seem to decent antitank, if not FTSF, perhaps Sisters of Battle might be a nice addition, get St Celestine as a HQ and join to a squad of DC (2+armour for tanking and gives squad hit and run), dominions in rhinos for scouting ignores cover rhinos and the troops can take MM immolators with 5 battle sisters, 2 of which can have Melta.
Have you written a list around this detachment we could see?
Not yet, I'm still working on it, though I was thinking min sized troops and maybe dante+priest with some sanguinary guard, or even a 4th unit of death co with astorath.
And i think 6-10 would be the magic number for death company. Also a 2nd raven wouldnt be terrible to carry the other death co dread.
I am looking to make use of a Stormraven(with locator beacon) in my deep strike-focused army. My question is if using the Stormraven as a transport for a Tactical Squad and Furioso Dreadnought is at all a good idea. I am afraid it will get shot down, which would make a mess of its contents. The list I am thinking of running is as follows. I admit it isn't the most competitive.
HQ Captain Karlaen (will DS with the Assault Terminators)
Sanguinary Priest w/Angel's Wing (will DS with the Sanguinary Guard)
Elite
Death Company Squad w/PF, 2x PS and JPs Sanguinary Guard w/3x Sword, 1x Axe, 1x PF (will DS with the Priest)
Furioso Dreadnought w/ Melta and SB (will ride on the SR)
Assault Terminators w/6x THSS, 4x LC (will DS with Karlaen)
Troops
Scout Squad w/Sniper Rifles and Camo Cloaks
Tactical Squad w/ CF, F, HF (ride in SR)
Heavy Support
Trilas Predator with OC engines
SR w/TLMM, TLAsC, Locator Beacon
I also have two squads of Assault Marines with 2x Meltagun, Cassor the Damned, a VV Squad, and a Librarian with Jump Pack.
th3maninblak wrote: Not yet, I'm still working on it, though I was thinking min sized troops and maybe dante+priest with some sanguinary guard, or even a 4th unit of death co with astorath.
And i think 6-10 would be the magic number for death company. Also a 2nd raven wouldnt be terrible to carry the other death co dread.
Interesting. I might try writing a list or two around it just for giggles, I don't have nearly enough DC or a second DC dread to put it on the table though.
Still, might be interesting to build lists and compare notes.
So the formation is called the Strike Force Mortalis. Here's my first crack at a list.
1850 BA
Baal Strike Force Detachment
LoW -Lord Commander Dante
HQ -Sanguinary Priest
Jump Pack
Power Sword
Bolt Pistol
Elites
-5x Sanguinary Guard
Inferno Pistol
Chapter Banner
Power Fist
Troops
-10x Scouts
Close Combat Weapons
-5x Scouts
Close Combat Weapons
Fast Attack
-Drop Pod
Strike Force Mortalis Formation
-Chaplain
Jump Pack
Power Fist
-6x Death Company
Jump Packs
Power Fist
-6x Death Company
Jump Packs
Power Fist
-6x Death Company
Jump Packs
Power Fist
-Death Company Dread
Magna Grapples
Heavy Flamer
Blood Talons
-Death Company Dread
Magna Grapples
Blood Talons
-Stormraven
Multi Melta
Assault Cannon
Hurricane Bolters
So the DC dread with the flamer goes in the empty pod, the other chills in the stormraven. Scouts probably outflank to stay out of harms way, but might infiltrate if i dont think theyll give up first blood. The rest of the army just kinda surges forward.
So, since Cassor the Damned is a Character, could you, theoretically, make him your Warlord? If so, would he be any good as one? Getting him Rampage would pretty useful, as it would turn him into a blender. Speed of the Primarch coupled with the +1I from Baal Strike Force would make difficult to deal with as well. For the most part, all of the Warlord Traits would benefit him pretty well.
Of course, another option is to pair him with a Librarian with the Sanguinary Discipline and spam Quickening on him. I am just trying to find a good use for the model of him that I built (should have built a Furioso, but too late now).
Remtek wrote: Could be fun, but you are giving up slay the warlord and you can't take strategic trait which are two huge drawbacks.
Why would you give up either of those things? He is a character so he would gain the Warlord Trait, and if one wanted to, they could roll on the Strategic table rather than the BA table. Also, since he is a character, Slay the Warlord would still be in effect. The only major drawback from choosing Cassor is that one would need an HQ as well. And since stuff like the Librarian or Sanguinary Priest are cheap and quite good, it isn't that much of a drawback. Of one uses the Flesh Tearer Strike Force, one would only need to select Fast Attack at that point.
Martel732 wrote: That's basically what I use, except I don't bother with the bolters.
I just figure, why not? They miss out on an attack due to Specialist weapon, so might as well let them fire a couple extra bolter shots. I initially did 10x DC w/PF, 2xPS but now I realize that PS just aren't worth the points versus a PF that can actually harm something. My old unit used to cost 285 pts, this new setup costs 280 pts so I save a Melta Bomb.
Martel732 wrote: That's basically what I use, except I don't bother with the bolters.
I just figure, why not? They miss out on an attack due to Specialist weapon, so might as well let them fire a couple extra bolter shots. I initially did 10x DC w/PF, 2xPS but now I realize that PS just aren't worth the points versus a PF that can actually harm something. My old unit used to cost 285 pts, this new setup costs 280 pts so I save a Melta Bomb.
No real reason. I just hate bolters and don't want to change my models.
Martel732 wrote: That's basically what I use, except I don't bother with the bolters.
I just figure, why not? They miss out on an attack due to Specialist weapon, so might as well let them fire a couple extra bolter shots. I initially did 10x DC w/PF, 2xPS but now I realize that PS just aren't worth the points versus a PF that can actually harm something. My old unit used to cost 285 pts, this new setup costs 280 pts so I save a Melta Bomb.
No real reason. I just hate bolters and don't want to change my models.
Ah. No problem. A stylistic choice is reasonable. I haven't built the second half of my DC yet, so this change is actually quite simple.
If the extra two bolter shots cost me the game, I'm willing to live with that. So far, I don't think it has. The PF get where they're going and own face or they don't.
Strike Force Mortalis (1156pts)
····Chaplain [Bolt Pistol, Crozius Arcanum, Frag and Krak grenades, Jump pack, Rosarius]
········Valour's Edge [Ranged weapon]
····Death Company Dreadnought [Magna-grapple, Power Fists, Searchlight, Storm bolter and heavy flamer]
····Death Company Dreadnought [Magna-grapple, Power Fists, Searchlight, Storm bolter and heavy flamer]
····Death Company Squad [6x Bolt Pistol, 2x Bolter, 6x Chainsword, 8x Death Company Marine, Frag and Krak grenades, Jump Pack, 2x Power Fist]
····Death Company Squad [7x Bolt Pistol, Bolter, 7x Chainsword, 8x Death Company Marine, Frag and Krak grenades, Jump Pack, Power Fist]
····Death Company Squad [6x Bolt Pistol, 6x Chainsword, 6x Death Company Marine, Frag and Krak grenades, Jump Pack]
····Stormraven Gunship [4x Stormstrike missile, Twin Linked Lascannon, Twin-linked Multi-melta]
Astorath, Redeemer of the Lost (165pts) [Artificer Armour, Bolt Pistol, Frag and Krak grenades, Rosarius, The Executioner's Axe, Warlord Trait: Soulwarden]
Attack Bike Squadron (55pts) [Frag and Krak grenades, Multi-melta]
····Attack Bike [Twin-linked Bolter]
+ Lords of War (220pts) +
Commander Dante, Chapter Master of the Blood Angels (220pts) [Death Mask of Sanguinius, Frag and Krak grenades, Inferno Pistol, Iron Halo, The Axe Mortalis, Warlord Trait: Descent of Angels]
Made a list using the DC formation, wasn't easy but I think the list is pretty interesting, it does use 3 sources of detachment so wouldn't he legal at many tournaments.
The idea is that The 2 big DC units get a character eith Hit & Run and access to rerolls, So Dante and Chappy in 1, Celestine and Astorath in the other. Storm raven carries 1 dread, the other has to hoof it. Chewp SoB squadcan camp a home objective. I wanted some more Anto tank from the Sisters, but points ran out too quick.
Remtek wrote: Could be fun, but you are giving up slay the warlord and you can't take strategic trait which are two huge drawbacks.
Why would you give up either of those things? He is a character so he would gain the Warlord Trait, and if one wanted to, they could roll on the Strategic table rather than the BA table. Also, since he is a character, Slay the Warlord would still be in effect. The only major drawback from choosing Cassor is that one would need an HQ as well. And since stuff like the Librarian or Sanguinary Priest are cheap and quite good, it isn't that much of a drawback. Of one uses the Flesh Tearer Strike Force, one would only need to select Fast Attack at that point.
I meant if you make him your warlord it's very easy for opponent to get slay the warlord.
Remtek wrote: Could be fun, but you are giving up slay the warlord and you can't take strategic trait which are two huge drawbacks.
Why would you give up either of those things? He is a character so he would gain the Warlord Trait, and if one wanted to, they could roll on the Strategic table rather than the BA table. Also, since he is a character, Slay the Warlord would still be in effect. The only major drawback from choosing Cassor is that one would need an HQ as well. And since stuff like the Librarian or Sanguinary Priest are cheap and quite good, it isn't that much of a drawback. Of one uses the Flesh Tearer Strike Force, one would only need to select Fast Attack at that point.
I meant if you make him your warlord it's very easy for opponent to get slay the warlord.
That is certainly true. A lucky lascannon shot could, potentially, blow him to bits. It would be fun in a casual game, though.
clocks in at 885 and gives you 13 units, 31 Marines, 2 Warlord Traits, 6 Pods/Rhinos with which to score or block movement, BLOS, etc. With the remaining ~1000 points and the likelihood of 3 sources, you can fit all sorts of extra goodies in. MSU beats deathstars, especially when you can block their movement with units that will score/deny. BA happen to have the best and cheapest available Pod/Rhino strategies.
clocks in at 885 and gives you 13 units, 31 Marines, 2 Warlord Traits, 6 Pods/Rhinos with which to score or block movement, BLOS, etc. With the remaining ~1000 points and the likelihood of 3 sources, you can fit all sorts of extra goodies in. MSU beats deathstars, especially when you can block their movement with units that will score/deny. BA happen to have the best and cheapest available Pod/Rhino strategies.
SW are better with pods. Always have been. Always will be. You need a second troop as well.
First off, the fact that this is the flesh tearers strike force isn't painfully obvious to you Martel really makes me doubt you as such a "pro" player. And how are wolves better in pods? Because they have counter attack? And? Is that it?
Wolves are better at Pods, exactly because Counter Attack.
Furious Charge is good when you charge. Dropping five guys out of a Pod are:
A: Unlikely to survive a round of dedicated shooting.
B: Should they survive, they'll have maybe a couple guys left? Do they still have Meltas, or did your opponent move to kill them first?
C: Are you giving your Sergeant a CC upgrade? They're getting pricey and glass cannony and unlikely to live to charge...
D: Is your opponent mobile? Can they move out of range? Will they make a charge?
E: You manage to charge something with those guys. Cute, they're beaten in Hand to Hand, because only 2 guys made it to combat, and they don't even have a CCW upgrade. Whoopy!
F: But I'ma holdin dee objectif. I Winz! For one turn, before a Knight double taps one squad with his Battle Cannon, then "split fires" his stubbers at unit 2. He then HOW, Chops, and Stomps Unit 2 into oblivion. And guess what! The stomps carried over into a Pod, and smashed it to pieces.
Podding is just an overall weak strategy... but Wolves do it better with Invul toting Dreads. If you smash face their duders, you get tied up / beat down by their dreads. 7th is won with mobility. Plain and simple. Once you drop the pods, fast moving armies just move away and... I don't know... shoot you with 20 Multi-Lasers.
th3maninblak wrote: First off, the fact that this is the flesh tearers strike force isn't painfully obvious to you Martel really makes me doubt you as such a "pro" player. And how are wolves better in pods? Because they have counter attack? And? Is that it?
I will admit that I was a little confused when I first read the list until the numbers started lining up. It is hilarious how insane that Detachment can get. And they haven't even gotten to the Elites yet. One could actually field the Blood Angels Parking Lot pretty easy with that list.
I think it is crap that the Assault Squads can't get Razorbacks at a discount anymore.
th3maninblak wrote: First off, the fact that this is the flesh tearers strike force isn't painfully obvious to you Martel really makes me doubt you as such a "pro" player. And how are wolves better in pods? Because they have counter attack? And? Is that it?
I never use it, and have only seen it a couple times; I don't even have the book for it. Counter attack is a huge component of SW drop lists. It's not as important as it used to be, but still. The BA chapter tactic being basically turned off by drop pods is not that hot, either. I'm not much of a pro, really, I've just played a lot of games against some people are are. There's no point in going to tourneys with mono-BA.
The melta ASM thing is not so great since melta got nerfed in 7th.
I can see from above I'm not the only one who feels this way.
th3maninblak wrote: First off, the fact that this is the flesh tearers strike force isn't painfully obvious to you Martel really makes me doubt you as such a "pro" player. And how are wolves better in pods? Because they have counter attack? And? Is that it?
Remembering the rules for a formation/detachment one doesn't use really isn't the proper measurement of his skills as a player.
Blood Angels are wasted in Pods since they want to get to CC. And preferably charge.
I've used suicide Melta Pods in my last two games. The results were pretty underwhelming. They managed to take off two HPs and destroy a Lascannon from a Land Raider after giving away the first blood.
In the second game they caused a Devilfish to Jink and stunned it.
I like BA with Pods, it's just that Assault Marines don't contribute enough. Furiosos, Sternguard and the like cost more but are far more efficent.
th3maninblak wrote: First off, the fact that this is the flesh tearers strike force isn't painfully obvious to you Martel really makes me doubt you as such a "pro" player. And how are wolves better in pods? Because they have counter attack? And? Is that it?
Remembering the rules for a formation/detachment one doesn't use really isn't the proper measurement of his skills as a player.
Blood Angels are wasted in Pods since they want to get to CC. And preferably charge.
I've used suicide Melta Pods in my last two games. The results were pretty underwhelming. They managed to take off two HPs and destroy a Lascannon from a Land Raider after giving away the first blood.
In the second game they caused a Devilfish to Jink and stunned it.
I like BA with Pods, it's just that Assault Marines don't contribute enough. Furiosos, Sternguard and the like cost more but are far more efficent.
This is exactly what I have found as well. I'm not sure why so many people are ga-ga over three melta shots.
th3maninblak wrote: First off, the fact that this is the flesh tearers strike force isn't painfully obvious to you Martel really makes me doubt you as such a "pro" player. And how are wolves better in pods? Because they have counter attack? And? Is that it?
Remembering the rules for a formation/detachment one doesn't use really isn't the proper measurement of his skills as a player.
Blood Angels are wasted in Pods since they want to get to CC. And preferably charge.
I've used suicide Melta Pods in my last two games. The results were pretty underwhelming. They managed to take off two HPs and destroy a Lascannon from a Land Raider after giving away the first blood.
In the second game they caused a Devilfish to Jink and stunned it.
I like BA with Pods, it's just that Assault Marines don't contribute enough. Furiosos, Sternguard and the like cost more but are far more efficent.
This is exactly what I have found as well. I'm not sure why so many people are ga-ga over three melta shots.
SW, UM, IF, Salamanders are all better in pods than BA. Not sure BA are better at anything those can do also. Probably the only thing BA does better than any other chapter is full mech - which I'm sure most of everyone agree - is not the best tactic.
My melta suicide pods perform rather well for me. I pretty much always have a roughly even number of flamer suicide pods and melta suicide pods, and in most games, I have my melta guys come in first due to the targets available.
On another issue, I put up a set of 3 ITC lists that are primary BA that I'm trying to pick between. I will be first in the BA ranking again as soon as I even show up to an event, but I want to put some distance between me and that Paul Boutin guy.
I've had a mix bag with pods and my BA. it really depends on the opposing army. I've found vs other marine players they are ok but not always optimal. Vs orks, IG, eldar and daemons ive found them to be really good loads with flamers.
I play vs marines (mostly SW, GK or Salas) 70% of the time so recently have backed away from pods in favour of jump pack troops (mainly DC) or bikes with fast vehicle support. as people have said mobility is key these days.
sometimes still run dreads in pods but unless is a fragnought I tend to play it tactical and head off advances with them to ensure i get the charge or I change there game plan.
Must say still loving my BA far more than my SW, IG or GK. they just feel more rewarding. that and I have bromance with mephiston whos always voted mvp in games atm.
I've converted my BA mech army into a drop pod hybrid army with the new codex. I run it as a Flesh Tearer army with the extra FA slots. I pod in 2 Fragnoughts, a Culuxus assassin and two 8-man ASM squads. Mephiston is with one and a lv2 Libby with the other (or with Mephiston). The threat to assault is all over the place and I can usually assault what I need to with so many threats. The rest of the list is mech/msu shooting. I wish I could exchange the Libby with a furioso libby, but the points are never there..
dark_red wrote: I've had a mix bag with pods and my BA. it really depends on the opposing army. I've found vs other marine players they are ok but not always optimal. Vs orks, IG, eldar and daemons ive found them to be really good loads with flamers.
I play vs marines (mostly SW, GK or Salas) 70% of the time so recently have backed away from pods in favour of jump pack troops (mainly DC) or bikes with fast vehicle support. as people have said mobility is key these days.
sometimes still run dreads in pods but unless is a fragnought I tend to play it tactical and head off advances with them to ensure i get the charge or I change there game plan.
Must say still loving my BA far more than my SW, IG or GK. they just feel more rewarding. that and I have bromance with mephiston whos always voted mvp in games atm.
What if you didn't know to bring the flamers against Orks, etc. I think BA pods are really mediocre against unknown opponents.
dark_red wrote: I've had a mix bag with pods and my BA. it really depends on the opposing army. I've found vs other marine players they are ok but not always optimal. Vs orks, IG, eldar and daemons ive found them to be really good loads with flamers.
I play vs marines (mostly SW, GK or Salas) 70% of the time so recently have backed away from pods in favour of jump pack troops (mainly DC) or bikes with fast vehicle support. as people have said mobility is key these days.
sometimes still run dreads in pods but unless is a fragnought I tend to play it tactical and head off advances with them to ensure i get the charge or I change there game plan.
Must say still loving my BA far more than my SW, IG or GK. they just feel more rewarding. that and I have bromance with mephiston whos always voted mvp in games atm.
What if you didn't know to bring the flamers against Orks, etc. I think BA pods are really mediocre against unknown opponents.
Ok, here's a debate that has been going on at my FLGS for a while. Its pretty much settled that death company are best served with 1-2 power fists as their only close combat upgrades, as power swords seem superfluous when you have 5 str5 init5 attacks on the charge (most things will just die to a huge number of saves), but squad size is a different story. I've had success with both 2x10 death co with packs and 2 fists per squad, but also with 3x5 with packs and 1 fist per squad. Definitely having a hard time figuring out which is better.
th3maninblak wrote: Ok, here's a debate that has been going on at my FLGS for a while. Its pretty much settled that death company are best served with 1-2 power fists as their only close combat upgrades, as power swords seem superfluous when you have 5 str5 init5 attacks on the charge (most things will just die to a huge number of saves), but squad size is a different story. I've had success with both 2x10 death co with packs and 2 fists per squad, but also with 3x5 with packs and 1 fist per squad. Definitely having a hard time figuring out which is better.
The likely reality is that neither are better averaged across many games, but only situationally better. It likely comes down to available elite slots. My DC are usually led by a libby, so I want as many affected by blessing as possible. In a different list, I'm probably going to use 3 X 5 DC.
th3maninblak wrote: Ok, here's a debate that has been going on at my FLGS for a while. Its pretty much settled that death company are best served with 1-2 power fists as their only close combat upgrades, as power swords seem superfluous when you have 5 str5 init5 attacks on the charge (most things will just die to a huge number of saves), but squad size is a different story. I've had success with both 2x10 death co with packs and 2 fists per squad, but also with 3x5 with packs and 1 fist per squad. Definitely having a hard time figuring out which is better.
10 DC 2 fists with Astorath is brutal and my go 2 if DC is my focus for the game. I generally use this to take out or dent deathstars or at least the strongest threat to my army (TWC is their usual pray these days) I also run a smaller 5-6man with a fist just as a fast force to take out smaller threats like pods, bikes or just small annoyances. They really are a superb unit if utilised well and fairly cheap for the punch they offer.
I've also had a 2 good games using a Div based lib with them to try and get a 4++ but these were just in test games and not comp so maybe a little a inaccurate as my opponent both times had experimental lists which weren't great.
I've also played vs 3 6man (5+1pf) all with JP as my SW and it was a pain in the arse, they didn't hurt me massively but they pose a large enough threat i had to try and take them out, being quick moving and with a 3+ 5+++ they caused me some issues back field but id rather this than a large DC unit tooled up with HQ like astorath or a lib.
Personally, I like a sanguinius libby with DC. The libby will be nice and close because the DC get nice and close. The divination libby, usually Mephy, goes with Sternguard. Prescience + vengeance rounds is pretty good.
I run my DC (Baal strike force) 3x7 with a fist or hammer, and pod in my fragioso. Along with 2 tac squads with flamer/heavy flamer. And kitted out Sgts. It either buys the turn needed for my DC to get into the thick of it, or they hammer the DC only to kbiw the force of almost full tac squads
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, shout out to the sang guard w/ a priest. Great unit, great price.
Was it mono-BA? Or did it have an allied gravstar?
Yeah it was Sentinels+BA. Blood Angels have a pretty awful win percentage/overall standing in the US. We're actually middle of the pack in Europe, though. Im interested to see what the meta difference is.
The main reason he has BAs in the list is for the drop pods. We are a taxi service for better armies now, I imagine once the new SM codex is out, we'll be out as well.
Being the Taxis for the IoM does explain the Lamentors color scheme.
Crimson Devil wrote: The main reason he has BAs in the list is for the drop pods. We are a taxi service for better armies now, I imagine once the new SM codex is out, we'll be out as well.
Being the Taxis for the IoM does explain the Lamentors color scheme.
That's a very defeatist attitude. And the SM book will never out taxi us, because they can't take 6 fast attack pods like we can XD
Still trying to find some lists from a few of the major tournaments across the pond. BA fare far better over there, apparently.
I had some great luck fielding only BA at a recent tourney in Cincinnati (about 30 person). Smaller for sure than the bigger ones, however, there were several Adepticon finalists there as well which made it interesting.
I had the luck of everything coming on (rerolls are awesome, and yes I know there is that chance they don't come on). From my understanding, the general consensus is that 1850 is too low for the Spearhead to work well, but after 8 games, I don't see a problem at all. This tourney was using Adepticon FAQ, so no DS and assault on turn 1. Generally, the SRs focused on knocking out vehicles turn 1 (including knights). Objectives were no problem, since due to combat squading, I could drop 5 man Tacs pretty much anywhere using Skies of Fury. If turn 2 looked ideal for assaulting, the DC with Dante and the Chaplain would be up field with the support from the SRs, and if necessary, went into hover to let out Tacs. Otherwise, I DS them elsewhere. There was a funny game where I dropped and kept everything in my back field while hiding when I faced a 4 knight list. The 3 SRs pretty much did all the work. Is the list above optimal? Probably not, definitely could be fine tuned some more.
I'm slowly working through the formations BA has available, but I'm leaning towards the notion that they can provide some immense buffs to the army to be competitive. I for one do not feel BA are handicapped at all or feel they are a disadvantaged army and have been having a blast trying new things every time I play. I was pretty happy taking third place in this tourney considering some of guys that were participating.
Crimson Devil wrote: It is debatable which one of us is more delusional about the BA codex's power level.
But by all means have pride in our taxi status.
The taxi comment was meant to be a joke. And I am not delusional about the codex's power level. I am well aware we are not top tier, and that we have performed rather poorly in the states as a main detachment. But as the European rankings showed (which had Eldar, Nids, and Orks at the top in that order, and Marines, BA, and Wolves in the middle in that order) showed, we are definitely not the worst codex either.
And if you notice a common trend in allied BA detachments, the other half of the reason to take BA is our psykers and sanguinary priests, so that's something.
Edit: I'm actually trying to find the website that had all this information so I can actually cite my source and not seem like I'm pulling information out of my a$$
My first guess is that Europeans aren't trying as hard.
Conceptually, the BA codex is actually quite good. But they just have marine malaise. Marines are subpar without using very specific builds that BA don't have access to.
And now we are just a turkey shoot for the scatbikes. It's 2nd ed all over again.
Crimson Devil wrote: It is debatable which one of us is more delusional about the BA codex's power level.
But by all means have pride in our taxi status.
The taxi comment was meant to be a joke. And I am not delusional about the codex's power level. I am well aware we are not top tier, and that we have performed rather poorly in the states as a main detachment. But as the European rankings showed (which had Eldar, Nids, and Orks at the top in that order, and Marines, BA, and Wolves in the middle in that order) showed, we are definitely not the worst codex either.
And if you notice a common trend in allied BA detachments, the other half of the reason to take BA is our psykers and sanguinary priests, so that's something.
Edit: I'm actually trying to find the website that had all this information so I can actually cite my source and not seem like I'm pulling information out of my a$$
I would be very interested if someone found the key to making BAs good. I don't play in a very competitive meta, but since 6th ed. my win/loss rate is in the basement. So I am a bit demoralized at this point. And to be honest, I hate the taxi thing. The BAs deserve better.
Well, I managed to beat eldar today, pretty easily actually. Granted, the list wasn't amazing, but according to the interwebz it should be impossible, lol. His list was made from a few of the formations or whatever? I don't know exactly but here's an approximation.
Yriel
Farseer lvl3
Autarch with power sword and fusion gun
3x10 guardians with weapons platforms in Wave Serpents
3x5 dire avengers in the avenger shrine, all in deep striking falcons
1 warwalker with 2x missiles
2 vypers with shuriken cannons
My list.
Dante
Priest with Valour's edge, jump pack, bolt pistol
2x10 death co with jump packs and 2 fists each
5x sanguinary guard with banner, inferno pistol, 1 fist
2x6 scouts with shanks and combi melta
5x bikes with 2x grav+combi
2 stormravens
Dawn of war deployment, 5 objectives, I won 3 objectives to non with dante and his whole unit untouched, both ravens, 2 bikes and 5 death co. He had a warwalker and 4 fleeing guardians left.
Hyperbole aside, Having a powerful codex doesn't keep you from being incompetent. The Players at the top and the bottom probably won't be that effected by the Eldar's power scale. It is the players in the middle that will get the most benefit and probably the most hate.
th3maninblak wrote: Well, I managed to beat eldar today, pretty easily actually. Granted, the list wasn't amazing, but according to the interwebz it should be impossible, lol. His list was made from a few of the formations or whatever? I don't know exactly but here's an approximation.
Yriel
Farseer lvl3
Autarch with power sword and fusion gun
3x10 guardians with weapons platforms in Wave Serpents
3x5 dire avengers in the avenger shrine, all in deep striking falcons
1 warwalker with 2x missiles
2 vypers with shuriken cannons
My list.
Dante
Priest with Valour's edge, jump pack, bolt pistol
2x10 death co with jump packs and 2 fists each
5x sanguinary guard with banner, inferno pistol, 1 fist
2x6 scouts with shanks and combi melta
5x bikes with 2x grav+combi
2 stormravens
Dawn of war deployment, 5 objectives, I won 3 objectives to non with dante and his whole unit untouched, both ravens, 2 bikes and 5 death co. He had a warwalker and 4 fleeing guardians left.
Not trying to downplay your victory or anything, but that may be the tamest eldar list I've seen since the book came out.
Oh I'm fully aware of how tame the list was. But it was a fairly easy victory on my part, and the way some people talk about Blood Angels on these forums you'd think that the best BA list vs the worst eldar list would still be an uphill fight for the angels.
Also, I hate the double standard that's happening here. Oh, a "top tier" army beat a "low tier army"? That's just the way the game works. But if the "low tier" army wins? Well the other player must have been bad. There's no other way.
I am by no means saying that eldar are not strong, or not stronger than BA. They are. But maybe the matchup isn't nearly as hopeless as many believe it to be.
It's looking at the top end vs casual. You played a mid-high end [for BA] list, while your opponent played a seemingly mid-low list [for Eldar].
The comparison isn't between whether or not a crappy Eldar list piloted by a mediocre player can do to a "tuned" BA list piloted by a master. The comparison is between a high end Eldar list vs a high end BA list, both piloted by skilled players. In that case, the power level of the Eldar 'dex, coupled with the skew that 7th puts on the game, puts BA at a [reasonably] perceived disadvantage in that contest.
Mobility is the key to victory in 7th, being tough comes next, shooty after that and CC potential. BA aren't as mobile as Scars, or EJB, or Biker Orks, unless they're rocking Bikes themselves. Bikes are tougher than JP troops, for precious little more points. They're Shootier than JP troops, given the relentless option, and in CC they're more or less on even footing after you work in the guaranteed HOW hits even if they move 12" in the movement phase.
So the double standard doesn't exist in this case. We have a specific list vs specific list, instead of a General Notion vs General Notion.
after a couple of week i've finally played eldar. Iwas the only person yesterday who wanted to play the guy, he was about to go home when I turned up.
anyway I didn't scribble his list down but basically it was
Jain Zar with 5 banshees in a WS 5 wraithguard D-scythe in WS Guardians, brightlance + warlock
2 x 5man scatter laser windriders
2x Hornet with 2 pulse laser
3 wraithlords with glaives
Avatar
i rolled with a list ive been playing with for a while and like to play (not always with success but its fun)
BSF Term Lib lvl2 ss, VE - biomancy (end & life leach)
Lib dread lvl1 in DP - Sang (fear)
6man DC, JP 1 pf Terminator AS all hammers
scouts, snipers sat on coms relay
2x 5man heavy flamer combi plasma tacs in pods
GK NSF
Lib (hammerhand, sanc) Goes with BA term+lib
5man terminator squad with halberts
2 NDK, swords, heavy psy and teleporters
Basically I deepstrike everything turn 1 and 2, ended up lucky with powers and had 2++ terminators with a 4+ fnp. podded the lib dread near the 2 NDK and cast quickening on one and it went to town. i really love this combo.
this game the alpha worked well, its a horrible combo when it works well as he didnt know what to go for first.
game was called turn 4 when he only had 3 bikes boosting around to stay away from me and 1 wraithlord who was about to get charged by a pumped up NDK. I didnt have much left other than 3 terminatos my 2 lib, 1 ndk, lib dread about 3 marines hiding and 4 DC chasing the bikes
Lessons learnt -
Banshees are much better and their HQ is nasty.
D-templates vs a melee army hurt until i got my 2++ terminators in combat with them.
jetbikes are still a pain in the arse, couldn't catch them easily and s6 ends up with a lot of wounds. fear of darkness did get rid of a squad on turn 1 though lol : )
I hate hornets with pulse (look sexy though...bastards)
I played a bit of a dick list but getting in their faces worked for me this time, not sure he expected it when he saw only 3 pods and, heavy flamers were nice vs guardians. if he had run a wraithknight over the avatar i think i would have struggled. was fun and im not as worried about eldar now
Hey guys, quick question. When allying with IG (taking leman russ HQ for heavy support with vet meltas in a chimera) is it worth getting full tactical squads or just 5 man squads and focusing my points on elites? I'm using the baal strike force formation. Cheers
I am trying to figure out what the best unit to run with Mephiston is. I plan on running a very DS heavy army, and don't really have the best place for him. One thing I have considered is running him with Cassor the Damned in a Stormraven and having them tag team big stuff. Cassor can benefit from Quickening, so he can rip stuff apart.
My question is, I guess. What am I supposed to do with Mephiston?
th3maninblak wrote: Seems like a pretty lopsided game. Though i really like your list.
Thanks and yes it was very one sided, his deployment wasn't brilliant which helped massively. Think he underestimated how much of my force was coming down turn 1 and was a little over confidant about playing eldar with d templates and bikes
its a very amusing list to play and have some room for flexability. I don't normally use a lib dread but wantesd to use the model. The weakness of this version was clearly air but prev I've run it with karlaen and gone quad gun instead of coms and made the term.lib go sang to buff the dreads
Automatically Appended Next Post:
casvalremdeikun wrote: I am trying to figure out what the best unit to run with Mephiston is. I plan on running a very DS heavy army, and don't really have the best place for him. One thing I have considered is running him with Cassor the Damned in a Stormraven and having them tag team big stuff. Cassor can benefit from Quickening, so he can rip stuff apart.
My question is, I guess. What am I supposed to do with Mephiston?
I love meph but only had limited success with him so far, be excels with ssth terminators as they counter his weakness of no inv. This gets bloody extensive though but rolling bio and getting endurance and iron arm makes for a very good combat unit if you can get them there.
Had him with dc which was ok but jp and astrath is better
Command squad worked ok with a couple of ss to take plasma shots
Personally I just use him.with terminators in bigger games, many people will.say run him with div with sternguard which is ok but imo meph is a warrior and should go biomancy and wreck face not sprinkle magic dust on people and stay back
casvalremdeikun wrote: I am trying to figure out what the best unit to run with Mephiston is. I plan on running a very DS heavy army, and don't really have the best place for him. One thing I have considered is running him with Cassor the Damned in a Stormraven and having them tag team big stuff. Cassor can benefit from Quickening, so he can rip stuff apart.
My question is, I guess. What am I supposed to do with Mephiston?
I struggled with this for a while too, and I found the command squad to be the perfect place for him. I run it with 3 melta guns and 3 storm shields in a drop pod, which comes out to just shy of 200 points. You dont need a bunch of CC monsters with him, as he already beats the tar out of anything with power armor or worse. With t5, artificer armor and feel no pain he tanks missiles and small arms fire like a champ, and can pass of plasma wounds to everyone else. Plus, the champion is actually a huge boon in the unit as opposed to a deficit. He can intercept challenges for Mephy and can actually win them vs sgts, exarchs, nobz, etc.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I am trying to figure out what the best unit to run with Mephiston is. I plan on running a very DS heavy army, and don't really have the best place for him. One thing I have considered is running him with Cassor the Damned in a Stormraven and having them tag team big stuff. Cassor can benefit from Quickening, so he can rip stuff apart.
My question is, I guess. What am I supposed to do with Mephiston?
I struggled with this for a while too, and I found the command squad to be the perfect place for him. I run it with 3 melta guns and 3 storm shields in a drop pod, which comes out to just shy of 200 points. You dont need a bunch of CC monsters with him, as he already beats the tar out of anything with power armor or worse. With t5, artificer armor and feel no pain he tanks missiles and small arms fire like a champ, and can pass of plasma wounds to everyone else. Plus, the champion is actually a huge boon in the unit as opposed to a deficit. He can intercept challenges for Mephy and can actually win them vs sgts, exarchs, nobz, etc.
My Command Squad has Jump Packs, but I guess I could stick them all in my Stormraven and drop them off. Seems a waste of Jump Packs though. This is only a problem with the Meph lists, the Command Squad runs just fine with a Dante list (though they don't run with him, he runs with a Sanguinary Priest and a squad of Sanguinary Guard).
On a side note, I really wish BAs Land Raiders still had Deep Strike (like anyone actually used it) so I could buy the Legacy of Glory for the Dropsite Massacre. Just for the hell of it.
Hey guys, quick question. When allying with IG (taking leman russ HQ for heavy support with vet meltas in a chimera) is it worth getting full tactical squads or just 5 man squads and focusing my points on elites? I'm using the baal strike force formation. Cheers
Personally, I agree with your thinking on minimising troops costs and focusing on elites, as most of BA's best stuff lies there. I believe that alot of people might agree with me on this, as many on here also like to use 5 man ccw scouts just to fill out the troops tax.
Hey guys, quick question. When allying with IG (taking leman russ HQ for heavy support with vet meltas in a chimera) is it worth getting full tactical squads or just 5 man squads and focusing my points on elites? I'm using the baal strike force formation. Cheers
Personally, I agree with your thinking on minimising troops costs and focusing on elites, as most of BA's best stuff lies there. I believe that alot of people might agree with me on this, as many on here also like to use 5 man ccw scouts just to fill out the troops tax.
I generally use 5 man squads more than 10 but depends on the balance of my force and what i want to achieve with them and also how I deliver them.
Also with allies i find i get more bang per points from a command squad with LC and vox sat along side vets with the same in a building than tank commanders. Pask in a punisher is fun, in vanquisher is good vs mech but 2 ignore cover LC each turn for much much les points is excellent backup to a melee army like BA. stick them on a quad gun you also have ignore cover anti air.
that said i do like the odd game with 6 russ as allies to make an armoured line with fast vindicators down the flanks
Martel732 wrote: Does anyone think that Baal preds might be a thing again with the scat bikes running around?
I hadn't thought about it, but maybe. With less wave serpents a dakka platform that wounds on 3s or 2s and doesnt care if they jink might be worthwhile. The short range and low side armor is still an issue, though. But if you could protect the sides, all that str6 does nothing against the front arc.
I can't imagine so. Paying 115/135 points just to get some 4 s6 tl shots (and some HB shots) seems bad, and there's no way to make it there with the flame cannon without dying. It's very hard to justify not paying like 5 more points for a 5 man jump DC unit with a fist, or UNspending 30 points for a dakka pred that's still oc engine.
Baal preds really need some discounting. Maybe potms to make heavy flamer sponsons not a silly option to take, also.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Heh. By running a cad, ft detachment, and BSF all together, you could spam a line of 9 dakka preds (Autocannon/heavy bolters and oc engine on all) for a little over 900. Probably close to 1600 after filling the necessary 5 troops, 1 elite, 1 FA, and 3 hq's for that. You could have 3 techmarines hiding behind the wall of AV 13 fixing things, or maybe divvy libbies. Not sure how to best compliment them with the rest of the list. Maybe a bunch of outflanking cc scouts with jump DC and asm?
The Flamestorm plus HF version would be good if it had Scout somehow. The Baal Pred isn't mobile enough to make a difference. One option would be to run some squads of twin-Heavy Flamer Land Speeders and deep strike them in an army with Dante. Throwing down six templates is sure to toast some stupid jetbikes.
Edit: It's gak like Scatterbikes that make me think that BA should have Descent of Angels default and Dante should have the benefits of Angel's Wing. And the Baal Pred should have scout and Land Raiders should have deep strike and gain the benefits from DoA.
Yeah i have no idea why they took scout away from the Baal pred. Its one of the things that made it worth the cost last book. 135 with asscan and bolters and scout would be pretty slick.
th3maninblak wrote: Yeah i have no idea why they took scout away from the Baal pred. Its one of the things that made it worth the cost last book. 135 with asscan and bolters and scout would be pretty slick.
Yup. As of right now it is too prone to being blown up before it can do anything useful. Being able to Outflank is absolutely necessary in order to get it in place. I would have been fine with a Formation that grants Scout to Baal Preds. Call it the Angel's Armored Column Formation, have it require three tanks with Overchanged Engines. The tanks gain Scout and Outflank.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Question: Should I use Grav-guns or Meltaguns for a Command Squad? I plan on running a triple Melta Assault Squad as well. I am running the Command Squad with Jump Packs.
Thanks for the tips mates! Also, what's the general consensus on bikes? Was thinking of taking them with a sang priest and using their fast shootyness combined with jump pack death Co.
Jump infantry should have melta guns. Its still the best weapon for them. Our jumpers wont have trouble with most infantry, but melta guns give us a chance to slag transports to get to the juicy giblets inside or put a wound or two on a monstrous creature that would otherwise be too tough to fight.
Also, grav bikes all the way. Its the only place in our book where grav is super effective. I started running a 5 man grav squad a couple weeks ago and they have performed well
th3maninblak wrote: Jump infantry should have melta guns. Its still the best weapon for them. Our jumpers wont have trouble with most infantry, but melta guns give us a chance to slag transports to get to the juicy giblets inside or put a wound or two on a monstrous creature that would otherwise be too tough to fight.
Also, grav bikes all the way. Its the only place in our book where grav is super effective. I started running a 5 man grav squad a couple weeks ago and they have performed well
I kinda figured that on the jump infantry. If I was not aiming to use them in CC, would plasmaguns be a better option? FNP makes for fewer instances of Gets Hot hurting them.
th3maninblak wrote: Jump infantry should have melta guns. Its still the best weapon for them. Our jumpers wont have trouble with most infantry, but melta guns give us a chance to slag transports to get to the juicy giblets inside or put a wound or two on a monstrous creature that would otherwise be too tough to fight.
Also, grav bikes all the way. Its the only place in our book where grav is super effective. I started running a 5 man grav squad a couple weeks ago and they have performed well
I kinda figured that on the jump infantry. If I was not aiming to use them in CC, would plasmaguns be a better option? FNP makes for fewer instances of Gets Hot hurting them.
Actually yes, particularly since our librarians have access to Prescience. Though this strategy worked better when we could take 4 specials in our command squads.
I'm definitely liking the command squad, though. Yeah, we cant customize the champion or apothecary, but we get them for free. And a ws5 init5 str5 dude on the charge with 4 ap3 attacks can actually drag down some people in a challenge.
th3maninblak wrote: Jump infantry should have melta guns. Its still the best weapon for them. Our jumpers wont have trouble with most infantry, but melta guns give us a chance to slag transports to get to the juicy giblets inside or put a wound or two on a monstrous creature that would otherwise be too tough to fight.
Also, grav bikes all the way. Its the only place in our book where grav is super effective. I started running a 5 man grav squad a couple weeks ago and they have performed well
I kinda figured that on the jump infantry. If I was not aiming to use them in CC, would plasmaguns be a better option? FNP makes for fewer instances of Gets Hot hurting them.
Actually yes, particularly since our librarians have access to Prescience. Though this strategy worked better when we could take 4 specials in our command squads.
I'm definitely liking the command squad, though. Yeah, we cant customize the champion or apothecary, but we get them for free. And a ws5 init5 str5 dude on the charge with 4 ap3 attacks can actually drag down some people in a challenge.
If I didn't have to take the stupid Champion and could customize the Apothecary, I would be all over running Plasma. But having a close combat character in a long range squad just doesn't work. Melta is still useful anyway, even against non-vehicles. Str 8 works well enough. But having Assault will help the squad out. Still, a mobile Melta platform will get the job done well. PLUS, it is fifteen fewer points. And they are vets, so they get A2 base, so an additional on the charge and HoW. Other stuff will have to deal with 2+.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: Prescience with a Sternguard squad actually makes the AP 3 ammo useful. Like against.... scatbikes.
I have shied away for the command squad, but maybe I should look at it again.
BA Command Squads aren't as good as C:SM squads due to not being able to take 4x Special Weapons. Also, a Bike Command Squad is better than a Jump Command Squad or Drop Command Squad. I still like them, though.
Honestly, the more I think about it the more I feel like Baal Predators would definitely have a place in certain metas. Particularly those rife with eldar jetbikes, harlequins, and dark eldar allies. Sure, they're awful against wraithknights and imperial knights, but they're cheaper than tri las preds, and those are awful vs bikes and anything that can jink.
th3maninblak wrote: Honestly, the more I think about it the more I feel like Baal Predators would definitely have a place in certain metas. Particularly those rife with eldar jetbikes, harlequins, and dark eldar allies. Sure, they're awful against wraithknights and imperial knights, but they're cheaper than tri las preds, and those are awful vs bikes and anything that can jink.
Thing is, how are you getting the Jetbikes in range for the Flamestorm?
Don't get me wrong, I am getting a Baal Predator to deal with such stuff, but I don't know how they are going to get to their targets well.
th3maninblak wrote: Honestly, the more I think about it the more I feel like Baal Predators would definitely have a place in certain metas. Particularly those rife with eldar jetbikes, harlequins, and dark eldar allies. Sure, they're awful against wraithknights and imperial knights, but they're cheaper than tri las preds, and those are awful vs bikes and anything that can jink.
Thing is, how are you getting the Jetbikes in range for the Flamestorm?
Don't get me wrong, I am getting a Baal Predator to deal with such stuff, but I don't know how they are going to get to their targets well.
Don"t use it?
The assault cannon and heavy bolter setup will kill 2 to 3 bikes in a turn, regardless of if they jink. They may jink anyways in fear of the rends on the assault cannon. By comparison the tri las pred kills 1, maybe 2 bikes in a turn of shooting, but forces them to jink.
A pair of baals can pretty reliably take out a 5 man bike squad in an average turn of shooting.
th3maninblak wrote: Honestly, the more I think about it the more I feel like Baal Predators would definitely have a place in certain metas. Particularly those rife with eldar jetbikes, harlequins, and dark eldar allies. Sure, they're awful against wraithknights and imperial knights, but they're cheaper than tri las preds, and those are awful vs bikes and anything that can jink.
Thing is, how are you getting the Jetbikes in range for the Flamestorm?
Don't get me wrong, I am getting a Baal Predator to deal with such stuff, but I don't know how they are going to get to their targets well.
Don"t use it?
The assault cannon and heavy bolter setup will kill 2 to 3 bikes in a turn, regardless of if they jink. They may jink anyways in fear of the rends on the assault cannon. By comparison the tri las pred kills 1, maybe 2 bikes in a turn of shooting, but forces them to jink.
A pair of baals can pretty reliably take out a 5 man bike squad in an average turn of shooting.
Fair enough. Going cruising speed should keep the bikes inside the range of the Assault Cannon, and scatterbikes will need to stay within 36" to even shoot at the Baal. I was hoping for something I had missed because the Flamestorm Cannon and Heavy Flamer sponsons would ignore cover and wipe out most if not all bikes in a squad. If they could reach them, that is. I still think we need a formation that grants scout back to the Baal Predator.
Agree, if it had torrent on all template weapons, maybe, but I can't ever see a reason to ever take HF sponsons over HB no matter the main weapon, and I can't see a reason to take the Flamestorm over the AC currently.
evildrcheese wrote: Agree, if it had torrent on all template weapons, maybe, but I can't ever see a reason to ever take HF sponsons over HB no matter the main weapon, and I can't see a reason to take the Flamestorm over the AC currently.
D
Sad. I was hoping that I had missed something so I could take the FSC and HF sponsons for roasting speeders. Oh well, I love me some Assault Cannon action.
Remtek wrote: Assault Cannon variant is still getting glanced to death with SA11. I love my Baal Preds, but they have no place in a competitive list imo.
You can play more games with it using terrain/other tanks. Is it efficient? Probably not. But then, what is efficient in C:BA? Basically nothing.
Remtek wrote: Assault Cannon variant is still getting glanced to death with SA11. I love my Baal Preds, but they have no place in a competitive list imo.
Baals were designed for urban warfare in the fluff, of course they are doomed in the open. They have to weave between terrain to be any use. They need scout back, though.
Remtek wrote: Assault Cannon variant is still getting glanced to death with SA11. I love my Baal Preds, but they have no place in a competitive list imo.
Baals were designed for urban warfare in the fluff, of course they are doomed in the open. They have to weave between terrain to be any use. They need scout back, though.
I don't care about the fluff. All the AV 11 side tanks are pretty weak in general if they don't have 48" range. I frankly don't think scouting really helps that much.
Hey guys. Haven't been seeing BA really tearing up any tournaments. Is there any build out there that's considered competitively superior that really give the top armies right now a run for their money?
I'm thinking about joining the BA ranks and would like to be able to compete with Necrons, Eldar, Centstar, Daemons and the like. I'm in a pretty competitive meta and would like to bring a tough BA list but don't know where to start...
syypher wrote: Hey guys. Haven't been seeing BA really tearing up any tournaments. Is there any build out there that's considered competitively superior that really give the top armies right now a run for their money?
I'm thinking about joining the BA ranks and would like to be able to compete with Necrons, Eldar, Centstar, Daemons and the like. I'm in a pretty competitive meta and would like to bring a tough BA list but don't know where to start...
There's really nothing in the BA codex that can compete with those builds. GW did the BA zero favors with the new codex.
syypher wrote: Hey guys. Haven't been seeing BA really tearing up any tournaments. Is there any build out there that's considered competitively superior that really give the top armies right now a run for their money?
I'm thinking about joining the BA ranks and would like to be able to compete with Necrons, Eldar, Centstar, Daemons and the like. I'm in a pretty competitive meta and would like to bring a tough BA list but don't know where to start...
Yes there is. Use the Flesh Tearer's Strike Force and buy lots of Drop Pods, scouts, and a Priest to chauffeur Skitarii to the battlefield. In the grim darkness of the future BA are Uber.
syypher wrote: Hey guys. Haven't been seeing BA really tearing up any tournaments. Is there any build out there that's considered competitively superior that really give the top armies right now a run for their money?
I'm thinking about joining the BA ranks and would like to be able to compete with Necrons, Eldar, Centstar, Daemons and the like. I'm in a pretty competitive meta and would like to bring a tough BA list but don't know where to start...
Yes there is. Use the Flesh Tearer's Strike Force and buy lots of Drop Pods, scouts, and a Priest to chauffeur Skitarii to the battlefield. In the grim darkness of the future BA are Uber.
That's not a BA list. That's a Skitarii list taking advantage of the BAFA slot.
To be fair, the Flesh Tearers detachment + Skitarii is the best list that uses Blood Angels in it. BUT there are still some "pretty good" units in the book.
-Dante
-5 assault marines with Meltas in pods
-TAC squads with heavy flamers in Pods
-10+ Death Company with jump packs and a PF or two
-Astorath (if taken with DC)
-Sanguinary guard are decent
-Sanguinary priests
-Bike units with Grav
-TriLas preds that are fast vehicles
-Mephiston is a boss in a pod
-Use FW to take a Sicaran instead of Baals
That's pretty much it... If I had to run competitive pure BA then it would be big DC blobs with Astorath plunging up the middle, a few grav bikes, and a crap ton of MSU melta/flamer pods landing in their face.
That's a pretty accurate list, though you forgot grav bikes. While not as good as their white scar counterparts, we actually take advantage of concussive on grav, and assault a wider variety of targets.
Granted, that's not a short list of good things in our codex.
th3maninblak wrote: That's a pretty accurate list, though you forgot grav bikes. While not as good as their white scar counterparts, we actually take advantage of concussive on grav, and assault a wider variety of targets.
Granted, that's not a short list of good things in our codex.
Yes, I'd definitely have to have Grav bikes in there. Now, consider that Blood Angels have by far the most Formation support out of the Space Marine chapters and there are a few viable ways to field the army. Unfortunately, BA has a lot of good and not a lot of great, and so seems to fall just short of challenging Eldar/Necrons.
syypher wrote: Hey guys. Haven't been seeing BA really tearing up any tournaments. Is there any build out there that's considered competitively superior that really give the top armies right now a run for their money?
I'm thinking about joining the BA ranks and would like to be able to compete with Necrons, Eldar, Centstar, Daemons and the like. I'm in a pretty competitive meta and would like to bring a tough BA list but don't know where to start...
Yes there is. Use the Flesh Tearer's Strike Force and buy lots of Drop Pods, scouts, and a Priest to chauffeur Skitarii to the battlefield. In the grim darkness of the future BA are Uber.
That's not a BA list. That's a Skitarii list taking advantage of the BAFA slot.
I've been working on this list for the better part of a week now, and I think I just might be onto something.
Primary- Blood Angels Baal Strike Force
LoW -Dante
HQ -Sanguinary Priest
Jump Pack
-Mephiston
Elites
-5x Sanguinary Guard
Power Fist
Chapter Banner
Inferno Pistol
-Command Squad
3x Melta Guns
3x Storm Shields
Drop Pod
-5x Death Company
Jump Packs
Power Fist
-5x Death Company
Jump Packs
Power Fist
Troops
-5x Scouts
Close Combat Weapons
Melta Bomb
-5x Scouts
Close Combat Weapons
Melta Bomb
Fast Attack
-5x Bikes
2x Grav Guns
Combi Grav
Allied Detachment- Sentinels of Terra
HQ -Librarian
Bones of Osrek
Auspex
Ml2
Elites
-5x Sternguard
3x Combi Melta
Drop Pod
Troops
-5x Tactical Marines
Melta Gun
Combi Melta
Drop Pod
Mephy goes with the command squad, the libby goes with sternguard, and both drop down first turn, with Mephiston splitting sanguinary and divination for prescience and quickening and the librarian rolling on telepathy. While we can't keep up with most armies in terms of firepower, we can saturate the board with targets and force them to make awkward or suboptimal moves and try to catch them between our advancing forces and the threats we either infiltrated up or dropped in their back field.
Well, for starters he's arguably the best combat character in the book, and one of the best marine characters in CC. He also protects his squad by giving them a 4w eternal warrior dude with a 2+/4++/5+++ to tank wounds on (goes with the priest and sanguinary guard, of course). The hit and run and 6in fear bubble give him plenty of squad buffs, too. The fear doesn't come up often but against orks/crons/etc, it can be backbreaking.
His warlord trait isn't as good here as in most of my lists, but it lets me counter deploy the death co and sanguinary guard if need be against opposing drop pod armies and other alpha strike forces. I like deployment options.
Well, for starters he's arguably the best combat character in the book, and one of the best marine characters in CC. He also protects his squad by giving them a 4w eternal warrior dude with a 2+/4++/5+++ to tank wounds on (goes with the priest and sanguinary guard, of course). The hit and run and 6in fear bubble give him plenty of squad buffs, too. The fear doesn't come up often but against orks/crons/etc, it can be backbreaking.
His warlord trait isn't as good here as in most of my lists, but it lets me counter deploy the death co and sanguinary guard if need be against opposing drop pod armies and other alpha strike forces. I like deployment options.
You run Dante alongside your Sanguinary Guard and Sanguinary Priest, based on your previous postings, correct? I think that might be what Martel was after. Literally, what does Dante do in the list, which is run around with the SG and SP. I do the same strategy. Giving Dante +1 WS and FNP makes him an absolute beast. On the charge, there isn't much that goes much faster than him.
If I have the extra points, I go ahead and give the SP the Angel's Wing so Interceptor is less effective and so they can have laser-guided Deep Strike.
Is giving this set up of SG(Dante+SP+SG) the Chapter Banner worth it?
Normally I upgrade the priest, too. But in this list points were super tight.
As for the chapter banner, YES. It is definitely worth it. In that unit it nets you 4 str5 ap3 attacks, 1 str9 ap2 attack, 1 str5 ap- attack and a str7 ap2 swing on the charge for 25 points. The reroll on morale and pinning is substantial as well, particularly vs pinning in an army that doesnt want to lose a turn of movement.
th3maninblak wrote: Normally I upgrade the priest, too. But in this list points were super tight.
As for the chapter banner, YES. It is definitely worth it. In that unit it nets you 4 str5 ap3 attacks, 1 str9 ap2 attack, 1 str5 ap- attack and a str7 ap2 swing on the charge for 25 points. The reroll on morale and pinning is substantial as well, particularly vs pinning in an army that doesnt want to lose a turn of movement.
Great, I don't have the points to spare to put it into most of my lists, and it isn't exactly something that I can fit in very easily. The fact it looks so frickin' awesome and that it doesn't reduce the effectiveness of the SG carrying it due to Angelus Bolters being wrist-mounted just makes it sting that much more :(
I am going to be getting a Baal Predator kit in the near future. I want to have all the options available for it. I have a turret and heavy bolter sponsons from a Predator Destructor kit. I plan on magnetizing the sponsons (easy enough), but if I disassemble the turret, would it be compatible with the Flamestorm Cannon from the Baal Predator kit?
Shoot, I see what you are talking about now that I look at the different models. Scratch that idea for now. TLAsC is all I will ever run anyway. The HB sponsons are pretty much the same. Different weapon covers. Will just build the Assault Cannon and HB version and be done with it.
Is a Furioso with Frag Cannon and Heavy Flamer in a Drop Pod a valid way for dealing with Scatbikes? Drop it Turn One next to a squad of bikes and lay down three templates. No Jink saves allowed. Sure, it is probably going to die after that, but is it worth the investment?
casvalremdeikun wrote: Is a Furioso with Frag Cannon and Heavy Flamer in a Drop Pod a valid way for dealing with Scatbikes? Drop it Turn One next to a squad of bikes and lay down three templates. No Jink saves allowed. Sure, it is probably going to die after that, but is it worth the investment?
It's pretty expensive with the pod, but the pod can lob a blast that they won't jink, either. I use fragnoughts in almost every list I make, so I think their general utility warrants their inclusion. For this scenario, the real question is how many bikes can you touch with the templates?
Smart eldar players but bikes in reserve if you have alpha strikey stuff like pods that could kill them. They're perfectly happy coming in turn 2 and obliterating things without taking losses first. Have fun trying to frag a WK on turn 1. :/
niv-mizzet wrote: Smart eldar players but bikes in reserve if you have alpha strikey stuff like pods that could kill them. They're perfectly happy coming in turn 2 and obliterating things without taking losses first. Have fun trying to frag a WK on turn 1. :/
Crap. Why not just print the Elder codex with the phrase "If you put two units of Windriders in your army, you automatically win the game."
So BA really have no effective way of dealing with Scatbikes, do they?
niv-mizzet wrote: Smart eldar players but bikes in reserve if you have alpha strikey stuff like pods that could kill them. They're perfectly happy coming in turn 2 and obliterating things without taking losses first. Have fun trying to frag a WK on turn 1. :/
Crap. Why not just print the Elder codex with the phrase "If you put two units of Windriders in your army, you automatically win the game."
So BA really have no effective way of dealing with Scatbikes, do they?
niv-mizzet wrote: Smart eldar players but bikes in reserve if you have alpha strikey stuff like pods that could kill them. They're perfectly happy coming in turn 2 and obliterating things without taking losses first. Have fun trying to frag a WK on turn 1. :/
Crap. Why not just print the Elder codex with the phrase "If you put two units of Windriders in your army, you automatically win the game."
So BA really have no effective way of dealing with Scatbikes, do they?
Not natively, anyway. Blood Angels (along with CSM and a couple other armies) are one of those armies where you're going to have to beat Eldar on the table-top rather than with list-building. There are no real tools within the codex itself that can handle them.
BlaxicanX wrote: Not natively, anyway. Blood Angels (along with CSM and a couple other armies) are one of those armies where you're going to have to beat Eldar on the table-top rather than with list-building. There are no real tools within the codex itself that can handle them.
When they are cruising around at their ridiculously high speed shooting their long range, high strength (for a bike at least) weapons that cost next to nothing, there isn't much room for beating them, tabletop or otherwise.
The only way to beat them is to never get them an opponent by getting no one to play them.
Is there any reason we couldn't just take triple whirlwinds, use our ASMs as bubble wrap and drop pod our flamer tacs in front of the whirlies rather than as alpha-in-yo-face-strike? The scatbikes would have to eat through a fair chunk to beat down the whirlies, but they'd take a fair few blasts before they finished, leaving the rest of your army doing something else, or eating blasts while taking the other units on.
Would that be a viable use of our cheapest units then?
Is there any reason we couldn't just take triple whirlwinds, use our ASMs as bubble wrap and drop pod our flamer tacs in front of the whirlies rather than as alpha-in-yo-face-strike? The scatbikes would have to eat through a fair chunk to beat down the whirlies, but they'd take a fair few blasts before they finished, leaving the rest of your army doing something else, or eating blasts while taking the other units on.
Would that be a viable use of our cheapest units then?
They would get their 3+ armor save against the Whirlwinds so it would only kill 1-2 per blast.
BlaxicanX wrote: Maliciousness is always unwarranted, unless it's in response to prior maliciousness.
It's also rather revisionist, considering there was a time (5th edition) where Eldar were at the bottom of the rung and Blood Angels were cheese.
So... one edition of the game BA were upper tier and Elder sucked so that forgives all the other editions where the reverse was true?
There's nothing to forgive, as the players did nothing wrong. It isn't Eldar players' fault that their codex is overpowered anymore than it was Blood Angel players' fault that their codex was in 5th. Thus "I hope they never get any games" is directing ire at the wrong target.
It's also unconstructive and reeks of butthurt. This is a "competitive list building thread", implying tournament level play, so "refuse to play Eldar generals and hope they never get any matches" is an option most people participating in this thread won't have.
BlaxicanX wrote: Maliciousness is always unwarranted, unless it's in response to prior maliciousness.
It's also rather revisionist, considering there was a time (5th edition) where Eldar were at the bottom of the rung and Blood Angels were cheese.
So... one edition of the game BA were upper tier and Elder sucked so that forgives all the other editions where the reverse was true?
There's nothing to forgive, as the players did nothing wrong. It isn't Eldar players' fault that their codex is overpowered anymore than it was Blood Angel players' fault that their codex was in 5th. Thus "I hope they never get any games" is directing ire at the wrong target.
It's also unconstructive and reeks of butthurt. This is a "competitive list building thread", implying tournament level play, so "refuse to play Eldar generals and hope they never get any matches" is an option most people participating in this thread won't have.
If people stop playing people playing Eldar, people will stop buying Eldar. If people stop buying Eldar, GW will stop making Elder overpowered. At least, that is how it should have played out. Instead they buffed Eldar and made the cycle repeat itself.
BlaxicanX wrote: Maliciousness is always unwarranted, unless it's in response to prior maliciousness.
It's also rather revisionist, considering there was a time (5th edition) where Eldar were at the bottom of the rung and Blood Angels were cheese.
Eldar were NOT bottom of the rung in 5th. There were Eldar players tabling BA players even in 5th with 9 X scatter walker lists. And also, SW were always better than BA in 5th, and they came out first. Not to mention GK and Necrons.
I keep playing against eldar and winning. Not entirely sure where all the doom and gloom is coming from, here. Yes, the codex is too strong. But it can be beaten.
To answer an earlier question, a fragnought is a great way to take out bikes. I dropped 2 squads with one in a game last night, wiping one and forcing another to run off the table. Yes, they can reserve them, but them losing a turn of shooting at an army that loves to get in close seems really risky. We basically get free movement there.
Granted, bikes are really hard to get into combat with, but dropping Mephiston and a fragioso in your opponents back field usually sends them into a panic. Baal Predators can put a hurt on them too.
And dante+priest+sanguinary guard ate a wraithknight in a single turn. Guess I'm just doing the impossible here.
Everyone needs to cool it with the relentless naysaing and negativity. It's getting really annoying.
That is certainly encouraging. I do want to give them a bit of a tough choice. My DC, Command Squad, and Dantestar come in turn 2 as well, so they can be proactive and who up turn one and get roasted or turn two and get some DoA action.
And if they don't panic? None of the Eldar players care what I do to them with BA. They just calmly shoot me off the table because they know they are going to win.
"Guess I'm just doing the impossible here. "
Or you rolled well. Not to mention threw a lot of points at it.
Or maybe you're just really bad, Martel. That or your consistently playing against a conglomeration of the best players in the country, while being mediocre yourself.
And statistically i was only slightly above average. Did 1 wound with inferno pistols, Dante hit 6 times and wounded 3 (only above average roll I made, he saved 1 with fnp and took the other 2), the rest of the unit sans fist swung in and managed to slip 2 unsaved wounds as well. The fist finished off the last wound.
So very little luck, really. And I did throw an expensive unit at it. But that unit went on to more than double its points throughout the game, and truth be told I rely on that unit to ace hard targets like that.
And Casval, don't get discouraged. Eldar vs BA is an uphill fight, but not unwinnable. And I would say deep striking everything isn't the best idea. Target saturation gets you farther.
th3maninblak wrote: Or maybe you're just really bad, Martel. That or your consistently playing against a conglomeration of the best players in the country, while being mediocre yourself.
And statistically i was only slightly above average. Did 1 would with inferno pistols, Dante hit 6 times and wounded 3 (only above average roll I made, he saved 1 with fnp and took the other 2), the rest of the unit sans fist swung in and managed to slip 2 unsaved wounds as well. The fist finished off the last wound.
So very little luck, really. And I did throw an expensive unit at it. But that unit went on to more than double its points throughout the game, and truth be told I rely on that unit to ace hard targets like that.
And Casval, don't get discouraged. Eldar vs BA is an uphill fight, but not unwinnable. And I would say deep striking everything isn't the best idea. Target saturation gets you farther.
Or maybe your Eldar opponent was bad. Since we're going there. That's how most miracle BA victories happened against 6th ed Eldar; they were asleep at the wheel. I'm pretty confident that I could beat any BA list pretty much every time if I owned Eldar. The part where a unit like that would fall apart for me is that it would never get where it's going intact. That's pretty much the failing of assault since 5th in general. The dregs that manage to reach the opponent don't have enough HTH power left to get it done.
th3maninblak wrote: And Casval, don't get discouraged. Eldar vs BA is an uphill fight, but not unwinnable. And I would say deep striking everything isn't the best idea. Target saturation gets you farther.
Well, three out of four of my forward units have FNP. So they are a little more survivable than my other marine army. I plan on pushing my Aegis Defense Line a little forward so my Scouts have a good position for hitting basically anywhere on the board with the quadgun. I am deciding between a Baal Predator and my TriLas Predator. Dantestar is going to go after anything big.
As of right now there really isn't an Eldar player that I even play against so this may all be for not. Still, the ADL isn't a total waste because it gives the scouts a safe place to set up (3+ Cover Save? Yes please!). I just don't even like the idea of an overpowered army like Eldar existing in the first place.
Hey does anyone know if you can get the rules for the various flesh tearer formations (legally) anywhere outside of the big expensive Exterminatus book? Even the softback is kinda pricey since I only really want the rules out of it, but I didn't know if there was something like a separate dataslate sold a bit cheaper or anything.
I was sorta thinking along the lines of making my formations viable for multiple uses so I could pick what was best for my current game, rather than changing up my lil lamenters list any, or at least not by much. I figure if I get the rules for multiple formations, see what the requirements are for some basic ones and make sure my army meets those demands, then I can just pick a plasystyle that game, whether it be CAD or BSF or something else.
I don't know if that's really a well thought out plan, I just want to be as TAC as I can while still being a lil fluffy. So do they sell them individually? The formations I mean? I didn't see them anywhere, but I thought it couldn't help to ask.
So I'm pretty sure that the next day I have to game, I'll be putting my Baal Predators in every list I play. I swear that since the Eldar book got released, all anyone is playing is bikes of various kinds, dark eldar vehicles and razorbacks.
th3maninblak wrote: So I'm pretty sure that the next day I have to game, I'll be putting my Baal Predators in every list I play. I swear that since the Eldar book got released, all anyone is playing is bikes of various kinds, dark eldar vehicles and razorbacks.
th3maninblak wrote: So I'm pretty sure that the next day I have to game, I'll be putting my Baal Predators in every list I play. I swear that since the Eldar book got released, all anyone is playing is bikes of various kinds, dark eldar vehicles and razorbacks.
Baals do have volume of fire on their side. Four S6 and six S5 shots will shoot up a lot. And if you run more, just more shot up.
