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 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Is a Furioso with Frag Cannon and Heavy Flamer in a Drop Pod a valid way for dealing with Scatbikes? Drop it Turn One next to a squad of bikes and lay down three templates. No Jink saves allowed. Sure, it is probably going to die after that, but is it worth the investment?

It's pretty expensive with the pod, but the pod can lob a blast that they won't jink, either. I use fragnoughts in almost every list I make, so I think their general utility warrants their inclusion. For this scenario, the real question is how many bikes can you touch with the templates?

Smart eldar players but bikes in reserve if you have alpha strikey stuff like pods that could kill them. They're perfectly happy coming in turn 2 and obliterating things without taking losses first. Have fun trying to frag a WK on turn 1. :/

niv-mizzet wrote:
Smart eldar players but bikes in reserve if you have alpha strikey stuff like pods that could kill them. They're perfectly happy coming in turn 2 and obliterating things without taking losses first. Have fun trying to frag a WK on turn 1. :/

Crap. Why not just print the Elder codex with the phrase "If you put two units of Windriders in your army, you automatically win the game."

So BA really have no effective way of dealing with Scatbikes, do they?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Smart eldar players but bikes in reserve if you have alpha strikey stuff like pods that could kill them. They're perfectly happy coming in turn 2 and obliterating things without taking losses first. Have fun trying to frag a WK on turn 1. :/

Crap. Why not just print the Elder codex with the phrase "If you put two units of Windriders in your army, you automatically win the game."

So BA really have no effective way of dealing with Scatbikes, do they?

No, they don't.

Martel732 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Smart eldar players but bikes in reserve if you have alpha strikey stuff like pods that could kill them. They're perfectly happy coming in turn 2 and obliterating things without taking losses first. Have fun trying to frag a WK on turn 1. :/

Crap. Why not just print the Elder codex with the phrase "If you put two units of Windriders in your army, you automatically win the game."

So BA really have no effective way of dealing with Scatbikes, do they?

No, they don't.

Great. Money well spent.

Not natively, anyway. Blood Angels (along with CSM and a couple other armies) are one of those armies where you're going to have to beat Eldar on the table-top rather than with list-building. There are no real tools within the codex itself that can handle them.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Not natively, anyway. Blood Angels (along with CSM and a couple other armies) are one of those armies where you're going to have to beat Eldar on the table-top rather than with list-building. There are no real tools within the codex itself that can handle them.

When they are cruising around at their ridiculously high speed shooting their long range, high strength (for a bike at least) weapons that cost next to nothing, there isn't much room for beating them, tabletop or otherwise.

The only way to beat them is to never get them an opponent by getting no one to play them.

That's pretty malicious.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
That's pretty malicious.

And yet, somehow not at all unwarranted. Luckily it really won't come into play much since the meta I play in has Orks, AM, MT, DA, and Nids.

Maliciousness is always unwarranted, unless it's in response to prior maliciousness.

It's also rather revisionist, considering there was a time (5th edition) where Eldar were at the bottom of the rung and Blood Angels were cheese.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Maliciousness is always unwarranted, unless it's in response to prior maliciousness.

It's also rather revisionist, considering there was a time (5th edition) where Eldar were at the bottom of the rung and Blood Angels were cheese.

So... one edition of the game BA were upper tier and Elder sucked so that forgives all the other editions where the reverse was true?

Speaking of blasts...

Is there any reason we couldn't just take triple whirlwinds, use our ASMs as bubble wrap and drop pod our flamer tacs in front of the whirlies rather than as alpha-in-yo-face-strike? The scatbikes would have to eat through a fair chunk to beat down the whirlies, but they'd take a fair few blasts before they finished, leaving the rest of your army doing something else, or eating blasts while taking the other units on.

Would that be a viable use of our cheapest units then?

 Phyrekzhogos wrote:
Speaking of blasts...

Is there any reason we couldn't just take triple whirlwinds, use our ASMs as bubble wrap and drop pod our flamer tacs in front of the whirlies rather than as alpha-in-yo-face-strike? The scatbikes would have to eat through a fair chunk to beat down the whirlies, but they'd take a fair few blasts before they finished, leaving the rest of your army doing something else, or eating blasts while taking the other units on.

Would that be a viable use of our cheapest units then?

They would get their 3+ armor save against the Whirlwinds so it would only kill 1-2 per blast.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Maliciousness is always unwarranted, unless it's in response to prior maliciousness.

It's also rather revisionist, considering there was a time (5th edition) where Eldar were at the bottom of the rung and Blood Angels were cheese.

So... one edition of the game BA were upper tier and Elder sucked so that forgives all the other editions where the reverse was true?

There's nothing to forgive, as the players did nothing wrong. It isn't Eldar players' fault that their codex is overpowered anymore than it was Blood Angel players' fault that their codex was in 5th. Thus "I hope they never get any games" is directing ire at the wrong target.

It's also unconstructive and reeks of butthurt. This is a "competitive list building thread", implying tournament level play, so "refuse to play Eldar generals and hope they never get any matches" is an option most people participating in this thread won't have.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Maliciousness is always unwarranted, unless it's in response to prior maliciousness.

It's also rather revisionist, considering there was a time (5th edition) where Eldar were at the bottom of the rung and Blood Angels were cheese.

So... one edition of the game BA were upper tier and Elder sucked so that forgives all the other editions where the reverse was true?

There's nothing to forgive, as the players did nothing wrong. It isn't Eldar players' fault that their codex is overpowered anymore than it was Blood Angel players' fault that their codex was in 5th. Thus "I hope they never get any games" is directing ire at the wrong target.

It's also unconstructive and reeks of butthurt. This is a "competitive list building thread", implying tournament level play, so "refuse to play Eldar generals and hope they never get any matches" is an option most people participating in this thread won't have.

If people stop playing people playing Eldar, people will stop buying Eldar. If people stop buying Eldar, GW will stop making Elder overpowered. At least, that is how it should have played out. Instead they buffed Eldar and made the cycle repeat itself.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Maliciousness is always unwarranted, unless it's in response to prior maliciousness.

It's also rather revisionist, considering there was a time (5th edition) where Eldar were at the bottom of the rung and Blood Angels were cheese.

Eldar were NOT bottom of the rung in 5th. There were Eldar players tabling BA players even in 5th with 9 X scatter walker lists. And also, SW were always better than BA in 5th, and they came out first. Not to mention GK and Necrons.

Anyway, is the Aegis Defense Line a good enough thing for dealing with a few bikes?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Anyway, is the Aegis Defense Line a good enough thing for dealing with a few bikes?

Define a few. And why would the aegis line do anything to bikes?

I keep playing against eldar and winning. Not entirely sure where all the doom and gloom is coming from, here. Yes, the codex is too strong. But it can be beaten.

To answer an earlier question, a fragnought is a great way to take out bikes. I dropped 2 squads with one in a game last night, wiping one and forcing another to run off the table. Yes, they can reserve them, but them losing a turn of shooting at an army that loves to get in close seems really risky. We basically get free movement there.

Granted, bikes are really hard to get into combat with, but dropping Mephiston and a fragioso in your opponents back field usually sends them into a panic. Baal Predators can put a hurt on them too.

And dante+priest+sanguinary guard ate a wraithknight in a single turn. Guess I'm just doing the impossible here.

Everyone needs to cool it with the relentless naysaing and negativity. It's getting really annoying.

That is certainly encouraging. I do want to give them a bit of a tough choice. My DC, Command Squad, and Dantestar come in turn 2 as well, so they can be proactive and who up turn one and get roasted or turn two and get some DoA action.

" usually sends them into a panic"

And if they don't panic? None of the Eldar players care what I do to them with BA. They just calmly shoot me off the table because they know they are going to win.

"Guess I'm just doing the impossible here. "

Or you rolled well. Not to mention threw a lot of points at it.

Or maybe you're just really bad, Martel. That or your consistently playing against a conglomeration of the best players in the country, while being mediocre yourself.

And statistically i was only slightly above average. Did 1 wound with inferno pistols, Dante hit 6 times and wounded 3 (only above average roll I made, he saved 1 with fnp and took the other 2), the rest of the unit sans fist swung in and managed to slip 2 unsaved wounds as well. The fist finished off the last wound.

So very little luck, really. And I did throw an expensive unit at it. But that unit went on to more than double its points throughout the game, and truth be told I rely on that unit to ace hard targets like that.

And Casval, don't get discouraged. Eldar vs BA is an uphill fight, but not unwinnable. And I would say deep striking everything isn't the best idea. Target saturation gets you farther.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Or maybe you're just really bad, Martel. That or your consistently playing against a conglomeration of the best players in the country, while being mediocre yourself.

And statistically i was only slightly above average. Did 1 would with inferno pistols, Dante hit 6 times and wounded 3 (only above average roll I made, he saved 1 with fnp and took the other 2), the rest of the unit sans fist swung in and managed to slip 2 unsaved wounds as well. The fist finished off the last wound.

So very little luck, really. And I did throw an expensive unit at it. But that unit went on to more than double its points throughout the game, and truth be told I rely on that unit to ace hard targets like that.

And Casval, don't get discouraged. Eldar vs BA is an uphill fight, but not unwinnable. And I would say deep striking everything isn't the best idea. Target saturation gets you farther.

Or maybe your Eldar opponent was bad. Since we're going there. That's how most miracle BA victories happened against 6th ed Eldar; they were asleep at the wheel. I'm pretty confident that I could beat any BA list pretty much every time if I owned Eldar. The part where a unit like that would fall apart for me is that it would never get where it's going intact. That's pretty much the failing of assault since 5th in general. The dregs that manage to reach the opponent don't have enough HTH power left to get it done.

 th3maninblak wrote:
And Casval, don't get discouraged. Eldar vs BA is an uphill fight, but not unwinnable. And I would say deep striking everything isn't the best idea. Target saturation gets you farther.

Well, three out of four of my forward units have FNP. So they are a little more survivable than my other marine army. I plan on pushing my Aegis Defense Line a little forward so my Scouts have a good position for hitting basically anywhere on the board with the quadgun. I am deciding between a Baal Predator and my TriLas Predator. Dantestar is going to go after anything big.

As of right now there really isn't an Eldar player that I even play against so this may all be for not. Still, the ADL isn't a total waste because it gives the scouts a safe place to set up (3+ Cover Save? Yes please!). I just don't even like the idea of an overpowered army like Eldar existing in the first place.

Hey does anyone know if you can get the rules for the various flesh tearer formations (legally) anywhere outside of the big expensive Exterminatus book? Even the softback is kinda pricey since I only really want the rules out of it, but I didn't know if there was something like a separate dataslate sold a bit cheaper or anything.

I was sorta thinking along the lines of making my formations viable for multiple uses so I could pick what was best for my current game, rather than changing up my lil lamenters list any, or at least not by much. I figure if I get the rules for multiple formations, see what the requirements are for some basic ones and make sure my army meets those demands, then I can just pick a plasystyle that game, whether it be CAD or BSF or something else.

I don't know if that's really a well thought out plan, I just want to be as TAC as I can while still being a lil fluffy. So do they sell them individually? The formations I mean? I didn't see them anywhere, but I thought it couldn't help to ask.

The Exterminatus formations are only in the book. There is really no other legal way to acquire them.

Keep checking ebay for Exterminatus is my best advice.

So I'm pretty sure that the next day I have to game, I'll be putting my Baal Predators in every list I play. I swear that since the Eldar book got released, all anyone is playing is bikes of various kinds, dark eldar vehicles and razorbacks.

 th3maninblak wrote:
So I'm pretty sure that the next day I have to game, I'll be putting my Baal Predators in every list I play. I swear that since the Eldar book got released, all anyone is playing is bikes of various kinds, dark eldar vehicles and razorbacks.

Loadout?

I'm guessing assault cannon/hvy bolters.

 th3maninblak wrote:
So I'm pretty sure that the next day I have to game, I'll be putting my Baal Predators in every list I play. I swear that since the Eldar book got released, all anyone is playing is bikes of various kinds, dark eldar vehicles and razorbacks.

Baals do have volume of fire on their side. Four S6 and six S5 shots will shoot up a lot. And if you run more, just more shot up.