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I'll be rocking the assault cannon+heavy bolter loadout.

Vs t4 3+ save models (like scat-bikes), the Baal will do around 5.5 wounds before saves, with a 50% chance that one of those wounds will deny armor. So that equates to 2 dead bikes or marines, with every other Baal pred killing an additional model due to the probability of rending. The Baals also pose the question to your target of whether or not they want to jink. If they do, and you dont rend, they now snap fire for no reason. If they don't, and you DO rend, a guy just got aced out of nowhere.

Vs av10 vehicles, the Baal will average about 2-3 glances or pens, with odds favoring 3. Vs av11, this goes down to around 2. Still pretty good odds.

The platform still has its weaknesses, such as awful side armor and short range, and I'm not attempting to go against common opinion just yet, but it's definitely worth taking another look at.

If you wanna run the Assault canons on Baal, would it be reasonable to just run 2 landspeeders with them instead? You'd get two asscans and two heavy bolters for I think 160. I may be wrong on that, I don't have my book in front of me, but in any case do you feel like the heavier armor on the baal would be a better delivery method?

I ask because I thought about running triple asscans on my speeders just a little while back, but was mainly concerned by the 24in range. In the end I went with my typhoons, but its all magnetized if it ends up being better to maybe run a squadron of em some other way, maybe as baal backup. Could see stacking alot of shots, just very expensive at that point.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The Exterminatus formations are only in the book. There is really no other legal way to acquire them.

Photocopies of the relevant pages.

Martel732 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The Exterminatus formations are only in the book. There is really no other legal way to acquire them.

Photocopies of the relevant pages.

Grey area of copyright law. I wouldn't risk it. $66 is better than whatever legal penalty you could end up paying.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The Exterminatus formations are only in the book. There is really no other legal way to acquire them.

Photocopies of the relevant pages.

Grey area of copyright law. I wouldn't risk it. $66 is better than whatever legal penalty you could end up paying.

Legal penalty? Okay.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
If people stop playing people playing Eldar

You don't get how tournaments work, do you?

Martel732 wrote:
There were Eldar players tabling BA players even in 5th with 9 X scatter walker lists.

Cool. And I've seen Screamer-star in its 6th edition hayday get tabled by Dark Angels- that doesn't mean Dark Angels weren't firmly less competitive than Daemons. No one cares about your anecdotes.


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 Phyrekzhogos wrote:
If you wanna run the Assault canons on Baal, would it be reasonable to just run 2 landspeeders with them instead? You'd get two asscans and two heavy bolters for I think 160. I may be wrong on that, I don't have my book in front of me, but in any case do you feel like the heavier armor on the baal would be a better delivery method?

I ask because I thought about running triple asscans on my speeders just a little while back, but was mainly concerned by the 24in range. In the end I went with my typhoons, but its all magnetized if it ends up being better to maybe run a squadron of em some other way, maybe as baal backup. Could see stacking alot of shots, just very expensive at that point.

Against Eldar I'd probably stick with the Baals. AV10 means that the landspeeders will get maybe a turn to do something and then get wiped off the board, jinking or otherwise.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
If people stop playing people playing Eldar

You don't get how tournaments work, do you?

I do, but most of my competitive hobby tournaments have been played using games that actually give a damn about balance and make a conscious effort to correct glaringly overpowered things. Take M:tG for example. At many points in the game's history, there were several cards that were overpowered. What did WotC do? They banned said cards or severely limited their use. What does Games Workshop do? Why, they deliver a much unneeded buff to said types of things. Anyway, like I said, I don't ever play against Eldar as of right now, and probably never will. There are other armies out there to play against that aren't stupidly broken. I do take issue with the idea that the only reason to play competitive is for tournaments. Everyone I play with fields very potent versions of their particular armies. My brothers(read: the donkey-caves that got me hooked on this game ) and my friends expect nothing less. Why play against someone that isn't trying their best? How is any game against said individual at all satisfying?

"Cool. And I've seen Screamer-star in its 6th edition hayday get tabled by Dark Angels- that doesn't mean Dark Angels weren't firmly less competitive than Daemons. No one cares about your anecdotes. "

Eldar were not nearly as bad in 5th as DA are now. It happened way too many time to be anecdote. The Eldar were just pigeon holed into very, very specific lists. They couldn't randomly take things from their codex and get a good army like they can now. DA don't even have that currently.

It all starts and ends with the scatterlaser. They were broken even back at BS3. Especially when a power list like SW from 5th advantages were mostly in HTH. If you planned on shooting them all to death, it made them more manageable. Basically, the Eldar players of the day were already playing 6th, they just didn't know it and didn't have the codex yet.


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 th3maninblak wrote:
I'll be rocking the assault cannon+heavy bolter loadout.

Vs t4 3+ save models (like scat-bikes), the Baal will do around 5.5 wounds before saves, with a 50% chance that one of those wounds will deny armor. So that equates to 2 dead bikes or marines, with every other Baal pred killing an additional model due to the probability of rending. The Baals also pose the question to your target of whether or not they want to jink. If they do, and you dont rend, they now snap fire for no reason. If they don't, and you DO rend, a guy just got aced out of nowhere.

Vs av10 vehicles, the Baal will average about 2-3 glances or pens, with odds favoring 3. Vs av11, this goes down to around 2. Still pretty good odds.

The platform still has its weaknesses, such as awful side armor and short range, and I'm not attempting to go against common opinion just yet, but it's definitely worth taking another look at.

If you can find a way to get it to fire 3-4 times in a game, it's worth it. But that's the really hard part.

If one had to choose, would you run some Gravbikes (5 bikes, Combi-Grav Sergeant and 2x Gravgun Bikers) or MeltAssault (5 ASM, Combi-Melta Sergeant and 2x Meltagun marines). Gravbikes is more expensive, and but can lay down some serious hurt on big stuff. Melta is like 40 pts cheaper, but it either comes packaged with Jump Packs or a Drop Pod, so it isn't that mobile once it hits the ground.

Why not both?

I've been toying with a Dante list for a while with 5x grav bikes and 2x5 assault marines with 2 melta+combi melta, retaining jump packs. The ASM units come in reliably on turn 2, scattering an average of 3 inches. Laser accurate melta has been pretty awesome, IMO.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Why not both?

I've been toying with a Dante list for a while with 5x grav bikes and 2x5 assault marines with 2 melta+combi melta, retaining jump packs. The ASM units come in reliably on turn 2, scattering an average of 3 inches. Laser accurate melta has been pretty awesome, IMO.

I dunno, I am kinda looking for a good reason to get bikes. I would be better off putting them in my Crimson Fists, though. Since I am going to run Dante in my 2000 pt army, ASM might be the better choice. My fear is that they will just get shot up before they get any thing done. Still, one turn of three Melta shots is nothing to sniff at. I run a 3x Melta Command Squad too, though.

After playing them 6-7 games it's a mixed bag. Nighfighting and jinking vehicles does reduce turn 1 thing quite much. It's awesome vs. Land Raiders (but who takes them?) solid vs orks transport heavy and armies with fast moving assault will force you to drop them in your own DZ or in the middle. I really prefer the single MM bikes, easy to hide and decent threat range.

I am hoping that the Space Marines Decurion analogue is somehow compatible with Blood Angels. Not counting on it, but it would be cool to take tank squadrons and whatnot.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am hoping that the Space Marines Decurion analogue is somehow compatible with Blood Angels. Not counting on it, but it would be cool to take tank squadrons and whatnot.

Safe to say there is pretty much zero chance of that happening in the way you want it to.

See the designer note for the command tanks profile thats floating around, looks like BA can take that unit. Might hint at units/formations that can be taken by all space marines.

 Carnage43 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am hoping that the Space Marines Decurion analogue is somehow compatible with Blood Angels. Not counting on it, but it would be cool to take tank squadrons and whatnot.

Safe to say there is pretty much zero chance of that happening in the way you want it to.

This is true, still no harm in planning for the worst and hoping for the best.

D

 Carnage43 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am hoping that the Space Marines Decurion analogue is somehow compatible with Blood Angels. Not counting on it, but it would be cool to take tank squadrons and whatnot.

Safe to say there is pretty much zero chance of that happening in the way you want it to.

We more than likely won't see anything, but one can hope. I would be happy if they released rules in WD as well.

Maybe it's just my local meta with its abundance of razorbacks, raiders, and bikes of all kinds, but my baal predators have been the MVPs of every game I've run them in for a couple weeks. If your meta looks anything like mine, give them a try.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Maybe it's just my local meta with its abundance of razorbacks, raiders, and bikes of all kinds, but my baal predators have been the MVPs of every game I've run them in for a couple weeks. If your meta looks anything like mine, give them a try.

Eh, I have Tyranids, DA, IG, Orks, and a few others. Still gonna give the Baal Pred a shot, see where it gets me.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Maybe it's just my local meta with its abundance of razorbacks, raiders, and bikes of all kinds, but my baal predators have been the MVPs of every game I've run them in for a couple weeks. If your meta looks anything like mine, give them a try.

You're running multiples? Think I recall you said you went Assault canons/heavy bolters?

I have been running 2 Baal Preds, both with assault cannon and heavy bolters. The best they did in a game was drop 5 razorbacks by turn 3. Definitely put me in a good spot to let my death co clean up the stranded squads that were riding inside

No competitive BA army should come without a fragioso. For the points, its just to good to pass up!

 raiden wrote:
No competitive BA army should come without a fragioso. For the points, its just to good to pass up!

Fragioso with HF in a pod with some Turn One squad roasting. Yes please!

Hi lads & ladies, just popping in to ask a quick question regarding your codex. As a mechanized force, how does it fare in comparison to say, Raven Guard who get scout on their transports?

The reason I ask, is because I own an Iron Warriors army built in early 4th ed, and am looking for a SM codex to represent it as the CSM marines themselves are the worst going by all accounts! I have it down to roughly mech (Raven Guard or BA) or podders (Space Wolves) . I'd like to go mech if possible, as the Rhinos can be used for CSM if they ever get a decent codex!

Raven Guard vs BA seems to come down to scout & cheaper Rhino vs faster vehicles & better assault. Assuming RG chapter tactics stay roughly the same. Also, I was thinking a way to get the most from BA tactical/assault marines in Rhinos might be to run them as a Baal strike force detachment and bring a company of the great wolf detachment to basically import in space wolf battle guard leaders & Iron priests to attach to BA squads. You lose the ability to combat squad if your fitting in a character to a squad in a rhino, but the space wolves IC's confer counter attack & seem pretty reasonably cheap for their combat prowess.

If the above is complete Gak, let me know, as i'm trying to get my head around how to use my painted marines who look a bit sad on the shelf.

It appears Raven Guard lost scout with the new codex.

Space Marine vehicles on the whole are pretty poor.
Drop Pods win over Rhinos as they're better at getting your cargo where they need too, and are more flexible with what they can transport

 raiden wrote:
No competitive BA army should come without a fragioso. For the points, its just to good to pass up!

Furioso's (all types) are pretty poor. Even with the Frag Cannon their damage output isn't that great, and they tend to die the turn after they step out of the Pod.

Bartali wrote:
It appears Raven Guard lost scout with the new codex.

Space Marine vehicles on the whole are pretty poor.
Drop Pods win over Rhinos as they're better at getting your cargo where they need too, and are more flexible with what they can transport

 raiden wrote:
No competitive BA army should come without a fragioso. For the points, its just to good to pass up!

Furioso's (all types) are pretty poor. Even with the Frag Cannon their damage output isn't that great, and they tend to die the turn after they step out of the Pod.

Disagree. The only time the furioso alpha left me filling cheated was against a MC spam list, or a mech list. (Which even then, is why I bring frag Cannon/ MM) managed two wounds on a MC and blew up a razorback (after scattering of target of a predator...)

Well this is awkward...

Things that are now objectively better in the new marine dex: scouts, devastators, dreads of all kinds, and vanguard veterans. Looks like we need to work around that.

Not to mention their cheaper sternguard, better command squads, Chapter Masters, everything else... Wow SM got a ton of solid favors in the new rules. 5 point power weapons in Vanguard! Now basically the only thing we have on them is JP Death Company...

Our sternguard are the same price as theirs. And we still have some stuff over them. Cool pistols, fast tanks, death co, sanguinary guard, cheaper command squads (free upgrades), sanguinary priests, etc.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Our sternguard are the same price as theirs. And we still have some stuff over them. Cool pistols, fast tanks, death co, sanguinary guard, cheaper command squads (free upgrades), sanguinary priests, etc.

I will admit BA have more than just DC that marines dont, but it's sad seeing that they got a lot of price drops that we will not. A shame, since we just got updated so probably have 2 years with this dex. It isn't all bad though, and Flesh Tearers look cooler than Ultras!