lord_blackfang wrote: Just back from the theater. Really good movie. Good retcon of the stupid exhaust port.
That wasn't a retcon. They just explained why such an obvious design flaw was overlooked.
Retroactive continuity actually makes changes to previous works like in A New Hope when Obi Wan tells Luke that Luke's father was murdered by Darth Vader then in The Empire Strikes Back, Vader is revealed to actually be Anakin. Another Empire retcon is when Luke and Leia are suddenly brother and sister when they clearly weren't in A New Hope.
Anyone who's ever picked up a Star Wars novel, played a Star Wars video game, or wiped their poop-hole with Star Wars toilet paper probably knows that the beloved franchise has a crazy huge extended universe.
There's almost no element of the movies that the Star Wars Expanded Universe didn't devote an entire story to, from all the weirdos at Jabba's Palace to the raging awkwardness of Luke and Leia's twin-cestuous flirtation. So it's not surprising that a lot of the writers hired to add on to the George Lucas' saga also saw it fit to try to fix some of the things that didn't totally add up.
Take, for example, the Death Star's fatal weakness: that thermal exhaust port. Isn't it kind of insane that nobody noticed that one torpedo to this small hole would cause the whole station to explode like some kind of Samsung product?
Well, the aptly titled novel Death Star goes into detail about the construction of the station, and guess what? Someone totally did notice the problem. Unfortunately, the Wookiee slave worker who stumbled upon the Achilles Heel got sick and couldn't report it because he had to be quarantined with roaring diarrhea. That is not a joke:
Am I the only one who noticed numerous reference [if you can call them that] to video and computer games?
The gizmo that held the plans was clearly taken from a stage in one of the Dark forces games [with a typical, dangerous escape route which was a cliché in those games]
The star destroyer smashing through the shield gate...thingy was like Imperial Raxus prime from Force unleashed
The planet [forgotten its name for now] that the death star plans were on strongly resembled Kothlis [the Bothan home world] and the Rebels attack on it was similar to a level in one of the Rouge Leader games
The blind Jedi guy [cant think of his name right now] seems to be inspired by several blind Jedi characters [mostly Miralukas] who appear in several games
AND now that I think about it; the desperate final battle does seem similar to the one at the end of KOTOR; in which the hero's fleet attacks an enemies strongpoint in hope of buying time for the hero [though I might just be drawing a long bow here]
I just saw the movie today, and I was totally blown away. Like, more blown away than Alderaan in Episode IV!
Spoiler:
I loved all the references and cameos from other Star Wars stuff, like having the characters bump into Dr. Evazan and Ponda Baba (long before the good doctor told Luke "I don't like you either!"). They also mentioned a general (whose name escapes me) from the Rebels TV show (my brother caught that one, as I haven't watched Rebels unfortunately), and I'd swear some of the other project names in the Imperial archive were references to superweapons from the old Expanded Universe (such as Black Saber-likely referencing Darksaber perhaps?). The CGI inclusion of Tarkin was well done IMO, and was very cool to see. The very ending of the movie was great, and the story just dovetails perfectly with Episode IV with Princess Leia getting the Death Star plans and escaping in Tantive IV. My overall feeling about all this, to quote Lord Vader: Impressive, most impressive.
Manchu wrote: The "Hammerhead Corvette" appeared to be a Republic ship from KotOR (ca. 4000 BBY).
Yes.
The film is actually filled with Easter Eggs that I noticed just in the theater and I suspect more viewings will lead me to finding more;
Spoiler:
I'm skipping the obvious ones because my friend doesn't like you, and I don't like you either (had a good laugh when those two showed up on screen, wonder how they got out of there XD). I'm sure everyone noticed the reference to the "jedi friend" and knew what it meant, as well as C-3PO and R2-D2's brief appearance. The Yavin lookout also counts.
References to the Original Trilogy/General Star Wars References;
-Saw Gerrera previously appeared in an episode of Star Wars: Clone Wars.
-For those who don't remember, the opening scrawl for Episode IV mentioned that the Death Star plans were stolen in the first Rebel victory against the Empire. Rogue One reveals that victory to be the Battle of Scariff, which despite the lose of Rogue One and much of the then Rebel Fleet was a major victory for the Rebel Alliance.
-You will notice in the Erso home at the opening of the film that the camera lingers on a glass of blue milk. It is the same prop that was used in Episode IV!
-Look closely when young Jin is packing her things and you will see that her toys include a Wampa and IG-88!
-Bail Organa mentions "Captain Antilles" when he and Mon Mothma begin organizing a response to Rogue One's successful infiltration of Scariff. This is Wedge Antilles' father who was captain of the Tantive IV and the owner at the time of C-3PO and R2-D2.
-Red, Gold, and Blue Leaders are actually represented in the film with original and unused footage from Episode IV that was spoofed up to fit more modern cinematography.
-The Republic Hammerhead is a design first seen in the Endar Spire, the starting point for Knights of the Old Republic. Three ships of this type were "stolen" from Leia Organa on the Imperial factory world of Lothal in Star Wars: Rebels.
-While infiltrating Scariff the rebels disable two Storm Trooper's talking about the retirement of the T-15. In Episode IV's Special Edition while sneaking through the Death Star Obi-Wan passes two Storm Trooper's talking about the new T-16 (good for bulls eyeing Womp Rats ).
-During the Battle of Scariff we witness of the death of Red-5, a long beloved joke character in the Star Wars Fandom! Many a fic has been written of his humerous and often clumsy deaths that would open the cockpit for Luke to take his moniker during the Battle of Yavin. Also note the "Rogue One" is itself a reference to the old EU's legendary Rogue Squadron which was lead by Luke Skywalker and Wedge Antilles during the Rebellion, and Poe Dameron during the Resistance.
References to Star Wars: Rebels;
-When Jin Erso is walking out of the rebel meeting frustrating the intercom is calling "General Syndula" to the briefing room. This reveals that not only does Hera survive the events of Rebels, but that she has been promoted as well.
-Early in the film while Jin and Casian are boarding their U-Wing you can see the Ghost on the left hand side of the screen!
-In a later scene when the communications officer is running to tell Mon Mothma what is happening, you can see C1-10P "Chopper"on the left. Chopper's good "friend" RA-7 also makes a cameo in the film.
-To top these references off, the Ghost is one of the first ships to make the hyperspace jump into the Scariff system (you can see it right as the rebel fleet arrives, and again as smaller ships start to engage the Imperial Fleet) at the start of the battle. Don't fret though. look closely and you see the Ghost make the jump out of the system just before Vader arrives!
-Given the numerous references to Rebels in the film, it is also probable that the Hammerhead used to ram the Star Destroyers was also the one the crew of the Ghost "stole" from Leia Organa in Star Wars: Rebels.
-Among the Tie variants shown on screen one was previously shown in Star Wars: Rebels and revealed to be a specially designed Tie by Grand Admiral Thrawn. It's plans were stolen by the crew of the Ghost.
Other films;
-Godzilla can be seen in Saw Gerrera's cave. Rogue One's direction Garth Edwards directed the most recent Western iteration of the King of Monsters
I consider it a retcon from "The designer was slowed" to "The designer was a saboteur"
Except that the first item you quoted was never actually a thing. Other than finding the flaw, nothing more was said about it in A New Hope. Thus nothing was changed by "explaining" it in Rogue One. Thus no retcon.
I just realized that R1 not only makes ANH better, but in a way, it makes TFA better. Everyone complained that the Empire was stupid for not only building a faulting Deathstar, but then another one and then the First Order build yet another.
But if you look at it now, each one has been different and not really "the same mistake each time, please stop trying".
-DS1 was designed with the flaw. Awesome, Empire doesn't look so dumb now
-DS2 was not even finished and the Rebellion was at its peak by this time
-Starkiller base was built from an existing planet in the outer part of the galaxy and was more powerful that either DS and was only destroyed by "the best star pilot" who was originally supposed to die in the first act of the film.
So you really can't blame the bad guys for trying. They are at least learning from each attempt and not repeating the same mistake, just being out maneuvered by an increasingly "mary sue" gang of scrappy good guys.
Loved the film. One "addition" that I really liked is the extra sense of urgency it gives to the events of ANH, especially the opening sequence and the early scenes on the Death star.
After watching this movie, I was suddenly very interested in an actual Star Wars miniature game that wasn't Imperial Assault, one that allowed room for vehicles and air support.
Not a fan of CGI Tarkin. He looked really fake, particularly when speaking. The face was the most distracting part. Very much in the the uncanny valley. Pretty disappointing consider the quality of the effects used throughout the rest of the film.
I liked the movie overall. Not quite as good as ep7, but it was decent. A little slow at the beginning. The final battle scenes were well done. I would go see it again.
I had no issues with Tarkin but the theater I was at projected it a bit darker than it should be so I wonder if the lighting had something to do with it. I imagine on brighter screens it is more obvious which makes me think the home video version will be quite noticeable. Still FX are a process and this was still quite a bit better than CLU in Tron Legacy and the next time will probably be even better.
^^ This. There was mocap on the FACE and Tarkin's FACE was mapped onto the actual actor, but the physical performance was ALL actor - even the voice.
The same for Leia. ONLY the faces were done with CG effects (because that's how motion capture is done. One million points of light stuff).
^^ This. There was mocap on the FACE and Tarkin's FACE was mapped onto the actual actor, but the physical performance was ALL actor - even the voice.
The same for Leia. ONLY the faces were done with CG effects (because that's how motion capture is done. One million points of light stuff).
Odd, I thought he looked a little mechanical walking around, as if the CGI was trying too hard or not hard enough. As if a machine were trying hard to mimic a persons gait but the timing was slightly off.
^^ This. There was mocap on the FACE and Tarkin's FACE was mapped onto the actual actor, but the physical performance was ALL actor - even the voice.
The same for Leia. ONLY the faces were done with CG effects (because that's how motion capture is done. One million points of light stuff).
Odd, I thought he looked a little mechanical walking around, as if the CGI was trying too hard or not hard enough. As if a machine were trying hard to mimic a persons gait but the timing was slightly off.
Maybe the mo cap actor simply did a bad job of recreating Peter Cushing's gait, and it therefore came across as stilted and forced.
Saw it a second time with the missus and Tarkin and Leia were much less noticeable when I knew it was coming. I still think it was the shock of 'wait, Peter Cushing is dead'.
doktor_g wrote: I first saw "Star Wars" before it was called "A New Hope" at the age of 6, at a Drive-In movie theater astride a 1977 Corvette T-top. It was 1979 and I remember that I didnt want to go play at the playground. I didnt ask for candy, or soda or popcorn. Enthralled.
Later, all my friends and I could talk about was the rumor that Luke was Vaders son. I dont know how it got leaked to children before the internet and before Empire came to our little town's "Mall Twin Cinema," but I remember seeing the back of a SW trading card and it made me think... "yeah... I bet he is." I have loved all the Star Wars movies. I even didnt mind JarJar or the Ewoks, but they distracted the story a bit... but I didn't care. It was Star Wars. When I go... Im on the T-top again under a stary canopy in the South's warm summer.
Empire or A New Hope has been the reigning champ for most of us including myself.... the reflexive "go to" whwn someone asks whats your favorite Star Wars movie? Tonight, for the first time since the summer of 1979, I felt truely transported.
Tonight, I can confidently say... Rogue One is my new favorite. I feel weird about it, but its true. It had all the good and none of the bad. My only regret was that I am not 6 again.
This story is near verbatim for me. I was with my older teenage uncle, his friend and my older brother. We had tickets for back to back showings so we just stayed in the theater and watched it twice. During the intermission, we discussed the whole thing with amassment. One of my fondest memories as yoots.
Rogue one was above average for a film and superior in terms of past franchise releases. It kind of has to be measured that way.
All the foreign accents are kinda annoying. Really not sure why that's become a thing.
Saw it today, and I loved it more than Episode VII, to be honest. I thought K-2SO was hilarious. Tarkin (looked a lot like his Clone Wars appearance) and Leia were also very well done.
@Byte: At the end of the day, a galaxy is a big place. I don't mind different accents.
-Loki- wrote: Saw it a second time with the missus and Tarkin and Leia were much less noticeable when I knew it was coming. I still think it was the shock of 'wait, Peter Cushing is dead'.
It looked like Peter Cushing, but it didn't sound much like him or have his manner. It did that thing that CG stuff often does of having the character constantly making facial movements in eyes, eyebrows and lips, to look more organic, but that isn't what Cushing' performance is like. It just didn't sound like him either.
Hey, I've got a question; Tarkin is a Grand Moff right? Yet he wears a basic imperial officers uniform. Meanwhile director Krennic has this unique white uniform with a cape. It's not important really but I kinda feel like they should swap uniforms. Again, it's not important. I just overthink things like this.
Hey, I've got a question; Tarkin is a Grand Moff right? Yet he wears a basic imperial officers uniform. Meanwhile director Krennic has this unique white uniform with a cape. It's not important really but I kinda feel like they should swap uniforms. Again, it's not important. I just overthink things like this.
Truly great and powerful men don't feel the need to grand stand.
Krennic on the other hand is a nobody, full of false bravado and pomposity.
Hey, I've got a question; Tarkin is a Grand Moff right? Yet he wears a basic imperial officers uniform. Meanwhile director Krennic has this unique white uniform with a cape. It's not important really but I kinda feel like they should swap uniforms. Again, it's not important. I just overthink things like this.
Truly great and powerful men don't feel the need to grand stand.
Krennic on the other hand is a nobody, full of false bravado and pomposity.
Future War Cultist wrote: One of the best things about Rogue One is getting to see Vader in his armor go on a rampage on the big screen. Not only was it equal parts awesome and terrifying, it also makes his reputation in the eyes of the rebellion justified now. It really canonizes what he know of him in the expanded universe stuff, and it shows that the original era can still keep up with modern standards of awesomeness. Plus, the way it was done really suited him. Rather than going in fast, it was calculated and relentless. I think he barely moved his arms above his shoulders. It befits a seven foot tall cyborg.
Yes we finally see Vader as the walking death machine he was meant to be.
Azreal13 wrote: I don't think he's been promoted to Moff at this point?
Either way, I believe the ISB wore white uniforms, so I assume Krennic was associated with them.
Tarkin is a Moff at this point, certainly. As well as being Governor of the Imperial Outlying Territories.
(These are the regional governors given total control over their domains with the dissolution of the Senate).
As are several of the other people at the Death star "round table" in the "meetings" in ep4.
I haven't watched any of the animated shows, so I'm not very familiar with Gerrera. But he feels very much like a rebel Vader, with the prosthetic limbs and the use of the breathing mask (did they use a Vader breath?). I was talking to my wife about him, and he feels very much like he has the same "do whatever it takes for the cause" fanaticism that Anakin had, just without the force.
d-usa wrote: Watched it a second time, still loved it.
I haven't watched any of the animated shows, so I'm not very familiar with Gerrera. But he feels very much like a rebel Vader, with the prosthetic limbs and the use of the breathing mask (did they use a Vader breath?). I was talking to my wife about him, and he feels very much like he has the same "do whatever it takes for the cause" fanaticism that Anakin had, just without the force.
He was in "Clone Wars", but is going to be fleshed out more in "Rebels" when it returns.
d-usa wrote: Watched it a second time, still loved it.
I haven't watched any of the animated shows, so I'm not very familiar with Gerrera. But he feels very much like a rebel Vader, with the prosthetic limbs and the use of the breathing mask (did they use a Vader breath?). I was talking to my wife about him, and he feels very much like he has the same "do whatever it takes for the cause" fanaticism that Anakin had, just without the force.
Which makes sense because in the one episode he appears in he's trained to be a guerrilla fighter by Anakin.
-Loki- wrote: Saw it a second time with the missus and Tarkin and Leia were much less noticeable when I knew it was coming. I still think it was the shock of 'wait, Peter Cushing is dead'.
It looked like Peter Cushing, but it didn't sound much like him or have his manner. It did that thing that CG stuff often does of having the character constantly making facial movements in eyes, eyebrows and lips, to look more organic, but that isn't what Cushing' performance is like. It just didn't sound like him either.
It WASN'T Peter Cushing's voice, which explains why it didn't sound like him. They only used a Mocap'd facemapped Cushing's face. Nothing else.
The VOICE PERFORMANCE belonged the actor under the CGI-facemapped face.
-Loki- wrote: Saw it a second time with the missus and Tarkin and Leia were much less noticeable when I knew it was coming. I still think it was the shock of 'wait, Peter Cushing is dead'.
It looked like Peter Cushing, but it didn't sound much like him or have his manner. It did that thing that CG stuff often does of having the character constantly making facial movements in eyes, eyebrows and lips, to look more organic, but that isn't what Cushing' performance is like. It just didn't sound like him either.
It WASN'T Peter Cushing's voice, which explains why it didn't sound like him. They only used a Mocap'd facemapped Cushing's face. Nothing else.
The VOICE PERFORMANCE belonged the actor under the CGI-facemapped face.
It was this guy..
Literally. (His name is Guy Henry.) He's also substantially taller than Cushing was, so I'm not entirely sure voice and body were the same guy.
In a new interview with StarWars.com, “Rogue One: A Star Wars Story” co-production designer Doug Chiang talks in detail about his intention behind the design of Darth Vader’s castle in the film.
Speaking on his initial idea — which he says was to create a place “where [Vader] comes to meditate and to heal himself” — and discussing at length the specific design of the tower, Chiang said the following:
Vader’s castle was really fun. When I knew that we were going to possibly go back to Vader’s castle, I loved that idea of, “Okay, let’s establish Vader’s home.” The initial idea was, “Why would Vader live here?” In our minds, we started to come up with a little bit of a backstory. That perhaps this place had special meaning for him, and that this is where he comes to meditate and to heal himself. We started with the idea that maybe it should be built around his bacta tank chamber, and he comes back here to rejuvenate himself and also to meditate. So from there, the structure itself grew out from the bacta tank, and there were certain ideas that we tried. We were trying to go for a very iconic shape, and we always love tall towers. Ralph McQuarrie actually drew quite a few small thumbnail sketches [of Vader’s castle] that were very intriguing. They were kind of angular versions of a tower, and I saw the potential of where he was going, and I just exaggerated that quite a bit.
One of things we landed on early was this idea of a tuning fork — a twin tower kind of look. And it was really interesting, because then that started to give Gareth a lot of ideas like, “Well, maybe the structure is built this way because it is like a tuning fork. It’s tuning the dark side in terms of the energy.” And then we actually carried that even further to Jedha. The Jedha temple, the tower there, mirrors this but on the good side. So when you see the film, you can start to see, “Okay, Jedha had its own tower, which was configured like a tuning tower. Vader’s tower, Vader’s castle, had the same thing but it was made in black, whereas Jedha was white.” You kind of start to see the good and the bad. You may not really notice it on a first take, but hopefully it’s that foundation of design subtleties that then the audiences, on second viewing, will appreciate. And I always like to build those elements in there because it makes the design more coherent, it makes the film more coherent, and overall it makes the design language very authentic and real.
Chiang also touched on the idea that there could be “a more ancient” area beneath the castle where Vader may go to meditate, saying:
It went back to the original idea of, “Well, why would Vader be here?” and there was a series of paintings and sketches that Ralph McQuarrie did, where Luke actually visits Vader in this underground lava cave. I always thought that was such a compelling image, because you have this lava lake inside this cave and there was Vader’s throne. So we took that idea and thought, “Okay, well, maybe on the lower levels of Vader’s castle, there’s a more ancient part. That he actually built this castle on a foundation of an ancient structure.” If you look at the finished design, it has this very strong element of a structure that was there for a purpose, and that purpose was to draw energy from the lava lake. If you look at the design of the base, it feels very much like a dam, and how the lava flows through it, possibly getting energy. And so we thought, “Okay, well, that’s the foundation. Maybe even deeper, or underneath that, is an even more ancient part, which is a natural cave where Vader goes to meditate.” Visually, we’re trying to create a sort of history for the tower. The bottom is the most ancient, the lava lake dam part was perhaps what Vader built his foundation on, and then the tower was Vader’s addition.
I did like this movie, though it was kind of an action overload at times. But I honestly didn't feel too much for the characters. It's a movie that tries too hard in many areas. I kind of feel like the new Star Wars is for the younger generation. I'll watch these movies but for me.. SW is the original three and that's it. The rest is like fanfiction to me. For now i'm just looking forward to more adult oriented sci fi and leave SW to the kids, because there is no turning back now for the disney SW spectacle. The theatre was full of kids who knew more about the characters/names than I did, and that's a bad sign. It means I did not walk into this movie giving a crap or expecting anything worthwhile.
I think Crennick [or however his name is spelled] wears white to make him more iconic. Plus the white could be a nod to Thrawn anyway; seeing as the film was full of nods to the E.U
Charles Dance would have made a great Tarkin, though I personally wasn't bothered by CGI Tarkin. It was much less noticeable the second time.
They shouldn't have done the full huge face closeup of Leia, and just had her side on or something. Enough that you recognise it's her, but not so much that you notice the CGI.
Skymate wrote: I think Crennick [or however his name is spelled] wears white to make him more iconic. Plus the white could be a nod to Thrawn anyway; seeing as the film was full of nods to the E.U
Krennic. It's in the movie credits.
There's actually quite a few white tunic/black trouser uniforms on particular officer types in ep4 and on the DS1 I saw at least 4 in ep4 (pre-special edition VHS version and they are still in the SE) and a few others in R1 - so I'd say it's more a "branch" uniform thing than a particular affectation for him. Imperial Security Bureau also wear that combination (that's current 'canon', too).
Thrawn has an ALL white uniform (tunic/trousers both white).
There've been different coloured uniforms since ep4 was the ONLY sw movie.
Went with a huge Star Wars fan and we both had the same view - Awesome second half and very weak first half - in fact if I understand correctly lots of re-shoots so guess that's why it seemed the two half's were from different films.
Thought the Jedi guy was good, once they got together for the final mission it was brilliant, but before then it was very hit (the robot, jedi guy, Captain assassin) and miss (hugely annoying breathing mask resistance guy was awful), Given the Japanese/Samurai fiction influence on Star wars - Blind Jedi made perfect sense - they love that stuff
Imperials want to capture guy and use his wife and kid as hostages - yeah ok that makes perfect sense - so they don't shoot her with stun bolt but kill her so they have zero leverage - ok that's stupid.
Seriously the writers need to watch something like "The Man in the High Castle" to see how repressive empires do stuff if they want to try and "be gritty" (to be honest everyone should watch it - best drama on tv at the moment - bar none).
Thought it amusing that Darth now lives at Mount Doom in a bad copy of Sauron's tower
Thought it amusing that Darth now lives at Mount Doom in a bad copy of Sauron's tower
My wife isn't as into these kinds of movies as I am, but Vader's "castle" on "Mustafar" looked so much like Mordor that even she leaned in to whisper that reference to me during the film.
Even still, I loved that part.
Watched it last night. The effects were great but that's honestly the only good thing I can say about the movie. I didn't give a single flying feth about any of the characters, terrible pacing, zero emotional investment in anything that happened on screen, the whole thing was pretty atrocious. I can't believe how many people liked the droid, it was such a try hard character. Empire remains the only Star Wars movie I like start to finish.
-Loki- wrote: Charles Dance would have made a great Tarkin, though I personally wasn't bothered by CGI Tarkin. It was much less noticeable the second time.
They shouldn't have done the full huge face closeup of Leia, and just had her side on or something. Enough that you recognise it's her, but not so much that you notice the CGI.
Someone or several someones did an amazing job on CGI Tarkin. Though his age and gauntness were somewhat exaggerated (his face looked noticeably more like a skull) it lines up with how my friends and I remember him from the original movies.
Side note: IIRC in return of the Jedi it's mentioned that the second Death Star is capable of targeting capital ships, which implies (it may have been stated) that the first one could not. However, we see the first Death Star targeting cities on a planet's surface without completely destroying the planet. My question is: does the first Death Star have precision targeting or not, and if not what's up with what it did in the movie?
gnome_idea_what wrote: Side note: IIRC in return of the Jedi it's mentioned that the second Death Star is capable of targeting capital ships, which implies (it may have been stated) that the first one could not. However, we see the first Death Star targeting cities on a planet's surface without completely destroying the planet. My question is: does the first Death Star have precision targeting or not, and if not what's up with what it did in the movie?
I don't think this was ever mentioned on-screen, wasn't it an EU thing?
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Hitting a city at range is easier than hitting a capital ship moving at a greater speed (relative to a planet's rotation) at closer range.
That'd be my logical guess, anyway.
And even if you miss, the beam still hits a planet rather than shooting through your fleet and beyond.
Thought the Jedi guy was good, once they got together for the final mission it was brilliant, but before then it was very hit (the robot, jedi guy, Captain assassin) and miss (hugely annoying breathing mask resistance guy was awful), Given the Japanese/Samurai fiction influence on Star wars - Blind Jedi made perfect sense - they love that stuff
Imperials want to capture guy and use his wife and kid as hostages - yeah ok that makes perfect sense - so they don't shoot her with stun bolt but kill her so they have zero leverage - ok that's stupid.
Thought it amusing that Darth now lives at Mount Doom in a bad copy of Sauron's tower
1: Chirrut isn't a jedi. Not all force sensitives are Jedi/sith. He just knows enough to focus roughly using the force. Enhanced reactions (dodging shots), knowing where things are/will be to shoot them whilst blind. He might have BEEN a Jedi had Palps not wiped out the temples.
2: I don't think Death Troopers have a "stun" setting. They are intended as kill troops. NOT capture troops. You send them in when you want something DED. Besides, she shot Krennic before getting killed. At that point, knowing that the daughter was still out there was enough for Krennic. Parents will do more to protect their offspring than they will for other adults.
3: As for "mount doom" and Vader's castle on Mustafar (well, unnamed volcanic lava planet at the time). That has been a thing in the concept art since pre-production for ESB (1978). NOT a new thing. They are actively going back to the archives for unused source material for the new stuff, and extrapolating from those. Doug Chiang has been doing that stuff since ep1 days. He's a big fan of Ralph McQuarrie's work (as are all of the art department of ILM) since his work pretty much defined the look of SW back in the days. Too many nerds drawing parallels to PJ's execrable LOTR movies these days.
It's also stated in "Rebels" (canon) that Mustafar is where Jedi go to die. So I'll assume Vader brings them back to his crib for some "special play time" before killing them. Probably to find out if they know where others are.
chromedog wrote: 3: As for "mount doom" and Vader's castle on Mustafar (well, unnamed volcanic lava planet at the time). That has been a thing in the concept art since pre-production for ESB (1978). NOT a new thing. They are actively going back to the archives for unused source material for the new stuff, and extrapolating from those. Doug Chiang has been doing that stuff since ep1 days. He's a big fan of Ralph McQuarrie's work (as are all of the art department of ILM) since his work pretty much defined the look of SW back in the days. Too many nerds drawing parallels to PJ's execrable LOTR movies these days.
Thought the Jedi guy was good, once they got together for the final mission it was brilliant, but before then it was very hit (the robot, jedi guy, Captain assassin) and miss (hugely annoying breathing mask resistance guy was awful), Given the Japanese/Samurai fiction influence on Star wars - Blind Jedi made perfect sense - they love that stuff
Imperials want to capture guy and use his wife and kid as hostages - yeah ok that makes perfect sense - so they don't shoot her with stun bolt but kill her so they have zero leverage - ok that's stupid.
Thought it amusing that Darth now lives at Mount Doom in a bad copy of Sauron's tower
1: Chirrut isn't a jedi. Not all force sensitives are Jedi/sith. He just knows enough to focus roughly using the force. Enhanced reactions (dodging shots), knowing where things are/will be to shoot them whilst blind. He might have BEEN a Jedi had Palps not wiped out the temples.
2: I don't think Death Troopers have a "stun" setting. They are intended as kill troops. NOT capture troops. You send them in when you want something DED. Besides, she shot Krennic before getting killed. At that point, knowing that the daughter was still out there was enough for Krennic. Parents will do more to protect their offspring than they will for other adults.
3: As for "mount doom" and Vader's castle on Mustafar (well, unnamed volcanic lava planet at the time). That has been a thing in the concept art since pre-production for ESB (1978). NOT a new thing. They are actively going back to the archives for unused source material for the new stuff, and extrapolating from those. Doug Chiang has been doing that stuff since ep1 days. He's a big fan of Ralph McQuarrie's work (as are all of the art department of ILM) since his work pretty much defined the look of SW back in the days. Too many nerds drawing parallels to PJ's execrable LOTR movies these days.
It's also stated in "Rebels" (canon) that Mustafar is where Jedi go to die. So I'll assume Vader brings them back to his crib for some "special play time" before killing them. Probably to find out if they know where others are.
1) fine - not a Jedi - but could have been one - yeah I get that. Who declares when you get to be a Jedi if they are all dead or hiding (especially major cowards like Yoda who apparently abandoned all his principles as soon as things started to go bad)
By the end of the film I think he was a Jedi.
2) Do they have a stun setting or not? So no one knows?
Well IF they don't (and apparently they might have) then the main bad guy was even more stupid then he seemed. Why bring a kill team on a simple grab mission (except of course to have new models to sell in the shop etc). Apparently the wife was the threat so just stun her on sight.
Its not like the scientist was a major bad ass - just bring a group of storm troopers - stun everyone and look for the kid, if you can't find her - well put pressure on the father via the wife and get her that way. The plot might have seemed a bit more likely if the wife had been used as leverage against him whilst he was working for the Empire.
3) and you do realise that Mount Doom/Saurons images predate that guys work by many many decades.
Oh and the one in the pic does not look like the one in the film - which looks just like Saurons tower in the books and films.
Yoda didn't cut and run, towards the end of Clone Wars he began to commune with QGJ, and not only learned how to preserve his concsciousness after death from him, but over the course of events received a vision of everything that was to come. He knew he needed to be around to teach Luke if there was any hope of defeating Palpatine, so he played the long game.
Azreal13 wrote: Yoda didn't cut and run, towards the end of Clone Wars he began to commune with QGJ, and not only learned how to preserve his concsciousness after death from him, but over the course of events received a vision of everything that was to come. He knew he needed to be around to teach Luke if there was any hope of defeating Palpatine, so he played the long game.
Azreal13 wrote: Yoda didn't cut and run, towards the end of Clone Wars he began to commune with QGJ, and not only learned how to preserve his concsciousness after death from him, but over the course of events received a vision of everything that was to come. He knew he needed to be around to teach Luke if there was any hope of defeating Palpatine, so he played the long game.
1: Chirrut isn't a jedi. Not all force sensitives are Jedi/sith. He just knows enough to focus roughly using the force. Enhanced reactions (dodging shots), knowing where things are/will be to shoot them whilst blind. He might have BEEN a Jedi had Palps not wiped out the temples.
He's not force sensitive at all.
One of the new additions to the EU is that the Force is a religion (this was expanded on in the prequel novel to The Force Awakens). Chirrut is one of the faithful. He can't use the force, but he believes in it and that it will guide him in whatever purpose he is meant for.
Spoiler:
This comes full circle in his last act where he simply walks through blaster fire (every shot missing without him really doing anything) and activates the comm system. He is killed moments later because he has fulfilled the destiny the Force set for him
Azreal13 wrote: Yoda didn't cut and run, towards the end of Clone Wars he began to commune with QGJ, and not only learned how to preserve his concsciousness after death from him, but over the course of events received a vision of everything that was to come. He knew he needed to be around to teach Luke if there was any hope of defeating Palpatine, so he played the long game.
Before he had this noncanon"vision" he ran away.
The problem is that now he's just an idiot who was shown everything that was going to happen and was too stupid to put two and two together, or he willfully let all the Jedi die just because some force spirits said so (including all those younglings, won't someone think of the younglings!).
Honestly it made more sense when he cut and ran. Palpatine's too strong. We can't win. Bide our time. It makes more sense than "some force ghosts told me we were screwed so I let it happen."
I always thought that everyone in the Star Wars galaxy is in tune with the force and if they believed in it it can slightly (and randomly) empower them. Chirrut would be an example of what a regular being could do with the force. And every once in a while a being is born who's more sensitive to the force and can learn to outright control it...a potential Jedi or Sith. Is that in the ball park or am I way off?
Future War Cultist wrote: I always thought that everyone in the Star Wars galaxy is in tune with the force and if they believed in it it can slightly (and randomly) empower them. Chirrut would be an example of what a regular being could do with the force.
I think that's supposed to be the implication. In the old EU there was the implication that "luck" was just a sort of rudimentary force sensitivity. Guys like Boba Fett and Han Solo could pull off insane stunts because at a very basic level they were using the Force. Instinct is nothing more than the Force guiding you. The new EU still seems to be running with the idea. The character of Bendu in Star Wars: Rebels hints at this in his conversation with Kanan Jarrus in Rebels Season 3*.
*Speaking of which, there's also the Lasat Prophecy that comes up in Season 2 of the series. There are no Force Sensitives among the Lasat but they do worship the Force (which they call the Ashla, an old EU term for the ancient "Light Side" that is also used by Bendu in Season 3 of Rebels). Despite not having any Force users, the Lasat still end up receiving and followed a Force prophecy to fruition.
Oh and the one in the pic does not look like the one in the film - which looks just like Saurons tower in the books and films.
Pic doesn't look like the one in the movie because it was one done for the pre-production of EMPIRE STRIKES BACK around 1978. THAT'S how old the Vader's castle idea is.
As for the nerd crack ... I'm a nerd, you're a nerd. Revel in it. If you can't look at your hobby and laugh, maybe step back and take a long hard look at yourself and THEN laugh. It's a hobby, not a religion, not meant to be taken seriously.
Oh and the one in the pic does not look like the one in the film - which looks just like Saurons tower in the books and films.
Pic doesn't look like the one in the movie because it was one done for the pre-production of EMPIRE STRIKES BACK around 1978.
THAT'S how old the Vader's castle idea is.
As for the nerd crack ... I'm a nerd, you're a nerd. Revel in it. If you can't look at your hobby and laugh, maybe step back and take a long hard look at yourself and THEN laugh. It's a hobby, not a religion, not meant to be taken seriously.
Yep you a right the one in the movie looks like Saurons tower - everyone saw it, most people like me just thought it was amusing - notice the guys wife in a previous post who is not into sci-fi andlikely not a nerd got it.
You do know how much older the imagery in LOTR is than Star Wars right?
I think Vader having a base on Mustifar may be a nod or referance or something to an early draft of REVENGE of the Jedi in which Palpatine's castle/pallace was on a lava planet.
Theres a lot of pre production artwork out there for it. My guess as to why it was never used originally was that maybe filming it would have been too difficult in the early 80's?
Azreal13 wrote: Yoda didn't cut and run, towards the end of Clone Wars he began to commune with QGJ, and not only learned how to preserve his concsciousness after death from him, but over the course of events received a vision of everything that was to come. He knew he needed to be around to teach Luke if there was any hope of defeating Palpatine, so he played the long game.
Before he had this noncanon"vision" he ran away.
The Clone Wars is canon.
With the sequel film Star Wars: The Force Awakens in production, in April 2014 Lucasfilm rebranded the Expanded Universe material as Star Wars Legends and declared it non-canon to the franchise. The announcement called the feature films and the Star Wars: The Clone Wars animated series "the immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters and events to which all other tales must align".
The problem is that now he's just an idiot who was shown everything that was going to happen and was too stupid to put two and two together, or he willfully let all the Jedi die just because some force spirits said so (including all those younglings, won't someone think of the younglings!).
Honestly it made more sense when he cut and ran. Palpatine's too strong. We can't win. Bide our time. It makes more sense than "some force ghosts told me we were screwed so I let it happen."
For all we know, that was the only sequence of events that actually lead to an outcome that wasn't Vader and Palpatine laying the groundwork for generations of opression. It is difficult to make an argument that Yoda is stupid or a coward, it is relatively easy to make a case for he allowed events to unfold, regardless of the cost to the Order or to him personally, as it was the only way to win. Especially as these events happen very close to the end of TCW and, as such, Palpatine was already well ensconced and Anakin had already taken his first steps towards his fall.
chromedog wrote: @Morden: I know the BOOK is older, but it wasn't an illustrated picturebook last I heard so I don't know where the pictures come from?
Which book - Lord of the Rings or the Star Wars one- Saurons Tower was created, discussed, and illustrated in varied ways long before Star Wars was even thought about.
The image in the new film looks like the Tower in the new LTR films.
Most people see that and find it interesting, amusing etc. It might even be a homage by the creator in the new film - Dark lord and his Dark tower - its not a huge stretch. Who knows.
Too many nerds drawing parallels to PJ's execrable LOTR movies these days.
if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are......
It is difficult to make an argument that Yoda is stupid or a coward,
Coward: An evil force arises, it is in its early stages and has yet to attain and maintain full control of the myriad worlds, consequently its grip is fragile. Do you, as apparently the guardian of Jedi ideals and belief, supposedly a leader and almost peerless light sabre duelist
A) Rally what forces you can in this period of uncertainty and if it is not possible to defeat the rising enemy, try to mitigate the damage, you know save lives.
B) Loose one fight, immediately run away and hiding yourself safely away whilst the galaxy burns.
The vision thing is a total cop out - yeah the visions told me (and only me) to hide and stay safe - oh no no they didn't tell me anything about the rise of the Sith, only what to do once they had won and how to win in the future.
Azreal13 wrote: Yoda didn't cut and run, towards the end of Clone Wars he began to commune with QGJ, and not only learned how to preserve his concsciousness after death from him, but over the course of events received a vision of everything that was to come. He knew he needed to be around to teach Luke if there was any hope of defeating Palpatine, so he played the long game.
Before he had this noncanon"vision" he ran away.
The Clone Wars is canon.
With the sequel film Star Wars: The Force Awakens in production, in April 2014 Lucasfilm rebranded the Expanded Universe material as Star Wars Legends and declared it non-canon to the franchise. The announcement called the feature films and the Star Wars: The Clone Wars animated series "the immovable objects of Star Wars history, the characters and events to which all other tales must align".
The problem is that now he's just an idiot who was shown everything that was going to happen and was too stupid to put two and two together, or he willfully let all the Jedi die just because some force spirits said so (including all those younglings, won't someone think of the younglings!).
Honestly it made more sense when he cut and ran. Palpatine's too strong. We can't win. Bide our time. It makes more sense than "some force ghosts told me we were screwed so I let it happen."
For all we know, that was the only sequence of events that actually lead to an outcome that wasn't Vader and Palpatine laying the groundwork for generations of opression. It is difficult to make an argument that Yoda is stupid or a coward, it is relatively easy to make a case for he allowed events to unfold, regardless of the cost to the Order or to him personally, as it was the only way to win. Especially as these events happen very close to the end of TCW and, as such, Palpatine was already well ensconced and Anakin had already taken his first steps towards his fall.
SO Yoda is now a coward AND a douchebag. Got it. No thanks. I'll keep my ESB version of Yoda intact.
Yoda fled because he realized that a single Sith lineage had survived hidden for a thousand years preparing and to fight a new war, while the Jedi just continued business as usual and were only prepared to fight the "old" war. If the single greatest Jedi (Yoda) could not beat the single greatest Sith (Palps) than clearly something needed to change.
That is also why Yoda did not instruct Obi-wan to train Luke from the start. He wanted the "Will of the Force" to determine the next step, rather than make the same mistakes that clouded the Jedi's arrogant judgement. If Luke sought out the training, than it was meant to be. And we all know how that turned out
Galef wrote: Yoda fled because he realized that a single Sith lineage had survived hidden for a thousand years preparing and to fight a new war, while the Jedi just continued business as usual and were only prepared to fight the "old" war. If the single greatest Jedi (Yoda) could not beat the single greatest Sith (Palps) than clearly something needed to change.
That is also why Yoda did not instruct Obi-wan to train Luke from the start. He wanted the "Will of the Force" to determine the next step, rather than make the same mistakes that clouded the Jedi's arrogant judgement.
If Luke sought out the training, than it was meant to be. And we all know how that turned out
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Again that makes Yoda sound like both a coward and a D bag. I was fine with him being "in exile" especially as he was (as the fact he died) freaking old and effectively powerless. But theis retro -he knew everything Cassandra style is just diarhetic poop to a great Jim Hensen creation.
Galef wrote: Yoda fled because he realized that a single Sith lineage had survived hidden for a thousand years preparing and to fight a new war, while the Jedi just continued business as usual and were only prepared to fight the "old" war. If the single greatest Jedi (Yoda) could not beat the single greatest Sith (Palps) than clearly something needed to change.
That is also why Yoda did not instruct Obi-wan to train Luke from the start. He wanted the "Will of the Force" to determine the next step, rather than make the same mistakes that clouded the Jedi's arrogant judgement. If Luke sought out the training, than it was meant to be. And we all know how that turned out-
Hmm that's sounds way off - the Jedi have apparently kept the peace for a thousand years and now the current chief Jedi decides that because he was not good enough to win a single fight - everything is wrong and the best thing to do is run and hide and hope for a miracle. Not maybe I should try again, maybe there is another way - nope -I lost the world has ended
"arrghhh time to run and hide."
Doesn't sound like a "protector", sounds like an arrogant fool who values his own life above all else.
So rather than Gandalf leading the Fellowship of the Ring - he goes off to a lost island off the coast on his own, ignores Sauron taking over the world and waits for a chosen one to be washed up on the coast. Awesome.
To be fair its more of a problem with the sheer awfulness of the prequel films and their inability to recapture the essence of the original trilogy.
Galef wrote: WOW!. What I posted was supposed to be evidence of Yoda's wisdom and trust in the Force.
Yet for some reason you guys interpreted it as evidence of his cowardice and hubris. Not what I meant....at....all.
Well before these statements were made we have Yoda fighting and losing against Palpatine. 20 years later he's hiding and an old fart about to die but there to train someone one last time. In the interim period he could have been a leader in the resistance, hunted for a decade etc. etc. Your statement takes all that away and just turns him into a dbag that makes Attack of the Clones Anakin look like a well adjusted teenage saint.
Now I'm sure that was based on EU or something, but it doesn't stop it form making Yoda change from the coolest puppet Jim Hensen ever made (Kermit remains a close second) to Star Wars history's greatest dbag.
EDIT: This is not meant as an attack on you. It is however a righteous attack on whatever BS fluff and wherever it came from. I sense a dark presence almost like a billions souls suddenly cried out at once and then were gone...I sense...Darth Lucas...
Indeed - I think that's the rub - he went from being a interesting and fun character in ESB /ROTJ to the arrogant, foolish and finally cowardly figure in the prequel films.
I think many had assumed that he had not immediately fled at the first sign of danger and only been driven to hide after a bitter fight against the rising Empire?
Actually, if memory recalls, I took that from the conversation between Yoda and Obi-wan at the end of the Revenge of the Sith novelization....which is cannon.
Obi-wan suggested he train Luke and Yoda train Leia, in the traditional Jedi way of Master & Padawan. Yoda noted that method of doing things failed and the Jedi had been blinded by their own arrogance. Yoda saw that everything the Jedi had done up to that point was futile and it was because they trusted "the old way of things" rather than listen to the "Living Force" as Qui-gon has always done and subsequently prevented him from being on the council. Yoda realized that Qui-gon was right.
So Yoda basically said both of them would "be on stand-by" *IF* the Force decided that was the way to do it. Luke and Leia need to seek out the training, not be forced to train as thousands of force sensitive children had been for generations.
Galef wrote: Actually, if memory recalls, I took that from the conversation between Yoda and Obi-wan at the end of the Revenge of the Sith novelization....which is cannon.
Obi-wan suggested he train Luke and Yoda train Leia, in the traditional Jedi way of Master & Padawan. Yoda noted that method of doing things failed and the Jedi had been blinded by their own arrogance. Yoda saw that everything the Jedi had done up to that point was futile and it was because they trusted "the old way of things" rather than listen to the "Living Force" as Qui-gon has always done and subsequently prevented him from being on the council. Yoda realized that Qui-gon was right.
So Yoda basically said both of them would "be on stand-by" *IF* the Force decided that was the way to do it. Luke and Leia need to seek out the training, not be forced to train as thousands of force sensitive children had been for generations.
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But if one doesn't read the novelization... They are still trying to hide the kids from Dad who's gone cray cray and killed a bunch of said kids. Logical and a long time story point from long before movies.
Of course in the original series Benny K didn't know about Leia being related at all.
I can definitely see why Disney went "whatevs" to the whole EU etc. thing and is just using what it wants for the movies.
Oh me too. Throwing out the EU stuff was a good idea because now they can take liberties with the story. And so far they have given quite a few nodes to the EU, which suggests the story writers have done their homework, which I appreciate.
Has anyone seen that Saw Guerrara is in Rebels now?
Galef wrote: Actually, if memory recalls, I took that from the conversation between Yoda and Obi-wan at the end of the Revenge of the Sith novelization....which is cannon.
Obi-wan suggested he train Luke and Yoda train Leia, in the traditional Jedi way of Master & Padawan.
Yoda noted that method of doing things failed and the Jedi had been blinded by their own arrogance.
Yoda saw that everything the Jedi had done up to that point was futile and it was because they trusted "the old way of things" rather than listen to the "Living Force" as Qui-gon has always done and subsequently prevented him from being on the council. Yoda realized that Qui-gon was right.
So Yoda basically said both of them would "be on stand-by" *IF* the Force decided that was the way to do it. Luke and Leia need to seek out the training, not be forced to train as thousands of force sensitive children had been for generations.
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Sorry never read the books of those films.
Hmm - So Yoda concluded that the system was wrong - not that he had failed? It had worked for a thousand years but under his leadership it failed - why is it the system and not the leader who has failed. Why does he not ask that question of himself?
I didn't get the impression that training for force sensitive's was mandatory - yeah the Jedi were arrogant and propped up the System (including slavery) but is that just a long slide into relative decadence or perhaps the mismanagement of Yoda - just how long had he been Grand Master and how much of the issue with the Jedi Order are therefore his fault?
If he did fail and perhaps contribute to the decline of the Jedi, again running and hiding is not a good thing - its cowardice.
Now religious leaders can be a bit flaky and tend to change their own tenants to suit them and their current world view.....is this how Yoda works? Certainly appears to be in the prequel films.
Now religious leaders can be a bit flaky and tend to change their own tenants to suit them and their current world view.....is this how Yoda works? Certainly appears to be in the prequel films.
Remember, the prequel films didn't have any of this.
When we only had the OT, there was already the issue of both Obi-Wan and Yoda being fundamentally wrong about the Force. Hence their bogus advice to Luke. Unlike his mentors, especially Obi-Wan, and even his own father, Luke refuses to indulge in the metaphor-turned-fantasy that Anakin and Vader are separate people. This is why he redeems his father rather than simply eradicating someone who is "twisted and evil, more machine than man now."
With the PT, Lucas tried to flesh this out a bit more. There is this prophecy about someone who will bring balance to the Force. The concept gets lost in the hurricane of nonsense that is the prequels. But the point is, the Jedi have this sterile (literally) view of the Force as a kind of purifying light - the Sith meanwhile view it as a weapon. The reality, which was supposed to be conveyed by Qui-Gon Jinn, is that the Force is a living thing rather than some kind of concept.
Luke doesn't quite figure that out but, even without reading retroactively, he understands that a human person is more complicated than "light side" and "dark side." As Luke insists, "there is still good in him." Contrast this to the behavior of Obi-Wan and Yoda in the prequels, who have zero insight into Anakin's turmoil despite being his foster family. No wonder Anakin fantasized about Padme for years, he was desperate for a human relationship. And no wonder it all blew up in his face, as he had no idea how to handle such a relationship given that he was raised by robotic morons.
Now religious leaders can be a bit flaky and tend to change their own tenants to suit them and their current world view.....is this how Yoda works? Certainly appears to be in the prequel films.
Remember, the prequel films didn't have any of this.
I meant if you are the one in charge setting the rules and interpreting the tenants of a given Faith, then when it goes wrong saying hey its actually all a bad system and people should have been doing it another way, why did you all do it like that! is a bit flaky/hyprocritical and dodging the bullet that it might have been you who screwed t all up. Then fleeing and hiding and leaving what's left of the Jedi leaderless just piles on the cowardice points.
Now the character in ESB seems to be a remnant of a older, better time (aren't they always -I bet cavemen sat around saying it was all so much better in the good old days), managing to survive terrible events and in the last months of his life passing on his wisdom to a new hope against the darkness.
The Prequel crap changes that to: Yeah I sat here alone for a few decades, ignoring the screams of the dead and those who wished themselves dead, ensuring I was safe and well to hopefully train someone to do what I should be doing now.
In ESB, we did not really know why Yoda was on Dagobah. Maybe he always lived there. It was only with Episode One that we found out that Yoda was living on the capital of the universe in charge of some powerful bureaucracy. In fact, we did not know anything about the role of the Jedi in the larger galaxy or about the Jedi themselves, really.
When I was a kid, I imagined the Jedi to be more like Arthurian knights (remember, Obi-Wan reminisces about he and Anakin fighting in the Clone Wars and that is functionally it) rather than Buddhist warrior monks.
I'd seen them as that or a kind of intergalactic Justice League/Avengers/similar -- and certainly small enough in numbers that they could easily be viewed as a myth.
We expect certain storytelling forms to pay special attention to setting. Historical fiction spends a great deal of energy in recreating the past. Fan fiction does something similar for its source material. Science fiction and fantasy fans expect world-building. Rogue One, a combination of all of these forms, does this very well on multiple levels. It is, after all, science fiction, and the Star Wars universe has long had a strong fantasy vibe.
Being a work by other creators in a beloved franchise built by others, the movie is very much like fan fiction. And given the way the movie’s setting and plot slot into a specific timeline within the Star Wars universe, it’s pretty close to a work of historical fiction. Accordingly, we get meticulous recreations of shots, dialogue, plot points, sound tracks, characters, spacecraft and various other technologies, and two actors, one dead, the other aged nearly a half-century past her original performance.
The technological aspect tugged at my mind. The presentation of a galactic empire’s tech and infrastructure was staunchly retro, even reactionary.
To explain: David Edelstein notes that the movie “rehashes the plots of about a thousand World War II and/or Western films in which a brave squadron—a Magnificent Seven, a Dirty Dozen, a Force Five—prepares to sacrifice itself in the name of a greater cause.” That’s because the technology looks and acts like it’s from WWII. We see switches, cables, heavy doors, grenades, machine guns (“blasters”), a staff, and sniper rifles, but no radiation weapons or gamma ray bursters. Stormtroopers drive a truck, rather than enjoying, say, a zero-gravity trawler. Spaceships are there, but act entirely as fighter and bomber aircraft, or as naval warships. We never worry about the vast distances between stars, time dilation, the enabling technology, artificial gravity, or really anything at all about space travel.
Similarly, computers are basically typewriters and radio receivers. The movie’s main plot point, the Death Star plans, are essentially physical, not digital. They are stored as a physical object in a gigantic file system, then mostly passed from hand to hand. When they briefly act electronically, it’s as a radio transmission, often with specialized radio operators complete with giant headsets. There are very few mobile devices, and they don’t matter.
There is a robot companion, yes, K-2SO, but in the style of many robot depictions he is in practice a skilled human being. In appearance he resembles something from early Soviet technology, hulking and either non-anthropomorphic or actively hostile. He’s dieselpunk, not post-cyberpunk.
Speaking of cyberpunk, in Rogue One there is no sign of the communications world after the internet. There aren’t any networks. Nobody hacks anything or checks anything online. Coding doesn’t appear to be a thing. There seem to be few networked sensors, as when attack after attack surprises enemies who only detect them visually (i.e., no radar, no distributed sensor arrays). Documents are unique, it seems, and hardly copied. This is true even of military documents—ironic, given that one of the key motivators for creating ARPANET was preserving those very things. Weirdly, communication satellites don’t seem to exist, or at least matter.
The movie is even more retro than this WWII level when it comes to media. There are no cameras or microphones. Nobody records, films, photographs, or surveils anyone else. When a hologram recording (in all ways a film strip) plays, nobody makes a copy. The one person who watched it simply remembers the gist, without bothering to shoot someone a copy or even write it down. In fact, there aren’t any media, either entertainment or news. You might expect a galaxy-spanning empire fighting an insurgency to have a serious propaganda effort under way. Instead it’s a semiliterate, nearly text-free realm.
(For comparison’s sake, consider the continuous stream of media populating Children of Men, now enjoying a 10-year anniversary. Newspapers, radio, television offer an ongoing stream of information about that world.)
Rogue One’s fierce techno-retro nature expresses itself in what we see of its world’s society and politics. Previous Star Wars movies described rebooted medieval and early modern sociopolitical structured lodged in interstellar space. Hence an emperor rules an empire, and senators work alongside aristocrats and feudal power arrangements. Unlike, say, Frank Herbert’s Dune universe, where changes in technology made older structures functional again, Star Wars just ignored any technological impact to copy and paste pulpy history onto the future.
Rogue One continues this, unsurprisingly, with some updates towards the 19th and 20th centuries. There’s the empire, of course, with its Lucas-born mix of Nazis and Ming the Merciless. Under its sway we see criminals, religious fanatics, and leftover warrior knights (Jedis, the Star Wars version of our world’s Teutonic Order). Family relations are also from the early 20th century, a classic nuclear family (only one child) anchoring the protagonist. Her gender roles are partly retro, too, as her mother matters far less than her father, and she risks her life and mission to save a child from a firefight.
Advanced technology has not extended lifespans or eased health problems. There are no signs of genetic engineering, medicine beyond 1950 (other than whatever the heck was involved in the heroine’s mentor’s outfit), or starvation alleviated by improved nutrition or even replicators. Cities are medieval/modern colonial in overcrowding and poor conditions. It is as if technology has been abstracted away from social life, or is arrogated to a powerful elite who otherwise keeps the populace in relative degradation. Perhaps the galaxy is run by a group of historical reenactors who insist everyone join their hobby in a kind of vast dystopia.
o why does Rogue One do this? Obviously it wants to hew to the original movies, mostly the first one and Empire Strikes Back, so the movie matches its technology with theirs. We get a nice echo of that late ’70s/early ’80s grungy technology vibe, as seen in, for example, Blade Runner and Alien. We don’t get screen-based keyboards, smartphone, or time dilation problems because the source material lacks them.
Beyond that formal reason, why would this fiercely retro approach appeal to today’s audience? And appeal it does, with box office above $64 million as of today, per IMDB.
We could ask them same question about similarly retro steampunk, as others have done. The answers include a desire to flee what some see as daunting techno-complexity in our present day, responding to feelings akin to Toffler’s famed future shock. But steampunk is a distinctly different era, anchored on Victorian Britain, not the 1930s, not dieselpunk. People like steampunk for many other reasons, including the fashions, and, I think, a strong sense of appropriated cultural smugness.
No, Rogue One turns to the Second World War because it wants that struggle’s cultural cachet. Evoking WWII sets the movie up for epochal struggles, a strong good versus evil theme, a seamy resistance plot, and especially massive amounts of sacrifice and death—the very opposite of steampunk. I wonder how this appeals to an America a decade and a half into the global war on terror. Was the studio hoping to tap into residual anxieties about distant enemies and the burdens of empire? Were they counting on war-weariness somehow fading away?
I suspect the pre-internet technology milieu engages two audiences. For younger people who’ve grown up with some degree of digital immersion this must appear to be an exciting alternate dimension. Rogue One is in this way akin to vinyl records and postcards. For older people (generalizing here) it’s nostalgia. Not only does it remind us of seeing the first movie back during the Carter administration, but is also recalls traces of the world we thought we once inhabited. The tangible tech, bereft of PowerPoint and sleek touch screens, reminds us of, say, shop class, working on cars, wiring up circuits. For both audiences Rogue One slyly connects with the maker movement.
Meanwhile, both audiences can enjoy the movie, then write about it on their smartphones as they leave the theater, checking Twitter and Facebook for friends’ opinions, and consulting Rotten Tomatoes for more reviews. Let’s see how this determined techno-nostalgia plays out in 2017’s popular culture.
Well-written piece but surely overthinking it a bit, after all R1 has to be true to a fictional setting imagined in the mid 70s by someone purposefully evoking the 40s. Kennedy, Edwards, and all the Disneyites couldn't do much about it one way or the other. The author would have done better to follow up on the fan-fiction angle proposed early on. R1 is essentially big-budget fanfiction, just like Force Awakens.
Galef wrote: Actually, if memory recalls, I took that from the conversation between Yoda and Obi-wan at the end of the Revenge of the Sith novelization....which is cannon.
Obi-wan suggested he train Luke and Yoda train Leia, in the traditional Jedi way of Master & Padawan.
Yoda noted that method of doing things failed and the Jedi had been blinded by their own arrogance.
Yoda saw that everything the Jedi had done up to that point was futile and it was because they trusted "the old way of things" rather than listen to the "Living Force" as Qui-gon has always done and subsequently prevented him from being on the council. Yoda realized that Qui-gon was right.
So Yoda basically said both of them would "be on stand-by" *IF* the Force decided that was the way to do it. Luke and Leia need to seek out the training, not be forced to train as thousands of force sensitive children had been for generations.
-
But if one doesn't read the novelization...
They are still trying to hide the kids from Dad who's gone cray cray and killed a bunch of said kids. Logical and a long time story point from long before movies.
Of course in the original series Benny K didn't know about Leia being related at all.
I can definitely see why Disney went "whatevs" to the whole EU etc. thing and is just using what it wants for the movies.
Well now that they fixed some plot-holes with the Rogue One movie, maybe in a few years the'll make a movie that plays after the destruction of the jedi, where Yoda joins the rebellion and seeing them doing as many atrocities as the empire (and maybe losing a new contingent of jedi) makes him retire to the planet. Anyway the movies between the main Star wars movies could explore so much avenues like the rise of the master Sith spy Jar Jar Binks
Apologies if this has been discussed already, I'm wondering in what order people plan to view a Star Wars marathon.
I haven't done this since Episode 7 came out, though I've always viewed the films in Episode order, from 1 to 6 (and now 7 at the end I guess). Now that we have Rogue One the obvious place to put it is in between 3 and 4, at least for me.
The hatchet order was generally considered best before the Disney films started, for people viewing the films for the first time. So 4, 5, 2, 3, 6. Where does Rogue One fit into this?
A Star Wars marathon is going to be a mammoth task in a few years time, also trying to figure out where films like the Han Solo film fit into the viewing order.
I would probably start with Rogue One. It doesn't give away any of the plot twists of the originals, so they stay intact in the order if you have never viewed them. That includes the "he's the father" in Episode 5 and "she's his sister" in Episode 3.
You could watch it after Episode 3 and still fit in the chronology of "stuff leading up to 4 and 5", but I think aestheticly it fits better with Episode 4 rather than following 3. And after the "he's the father, how did it happen" flashbacks I think it's better to jump straight to the finale of Episode 6.
IMO: 4, 5, 6, R1/7 if you still care. No need to suffer through the prequels, R1 and TFA work best as an optional "if we aren't sick of Star Wars" yet movie.
d-usa wrote: I would probably start with Rogue One. It doesn't give away any of the plot twists of the originals, so they stay intact in the order if you have never viewed them. That includes the "he's the father" in Episode 5 and "she's his sister" in Episode 3.
You could watch it after Episode 3 and still fit in the chronology of "stuff leading up to 4 and 5", but I think aestheticly it fits better with Episode 4 rather than following 3. And after the "he's the father, how did it happen" flashbacks I think it's better to jump straight to the finale of Episode 6.
I kind of thought the same, though it seems a bit wrong to not have Episode IV first. Still, Rogue One is a great film and shouldn't put people off watching the rest of the series (unlike the prequels).
Crazy_Carnifex wrote: Yeah, I'd say "Hatchet+" (because the two newest movies are added onto either end) is the best way to marathon the movies now.
Optional: Take a break between 2 and 3 to binge-watch the Clone Wars.
Is Clone Wars worth it? I tried watching a couple of episodes some years ago and found it very tedious. We also have Rebels to make things even longer now.
Compel wrote: On a sidenote, I've never heard of it as the "Hatchet Order" before, I've always known it as the "Machete order."
I was convinced it was called the hatchet order, though after some Googling it seems I may have made that name up
Someone took a Chinese bootleg of Episode 3, translated the Chinese back into English and then overdubbed the original dialogue with the butchered translation.
"We must help the bad decisions of the Presbyterian Church!"
I thought of something on my second screening of the film.
What if the 'Rebel base' on Dantooine Leia mentions in E4 is the Jedi covenant from the KOTOR games. What if the Rebels tried to use it as a base but gave up as it was haunted by Reven's ghost?
This is all just my own speculation and theorising
El Torro wrote: Is Clone Wars worth it? I tried watching a couple of episodes some years ago and found it very tedious. We also have Rebels to make things even longer now.
Personally I would skip Clone Wars. It was a chore to find enjoyment from the series. It's rife with just plain bad story telling and that special flavor of "George Lucas shoe horned this in here just because he wanted to" that made the prequels such a chore.
I would however recommend Rebels, and in that regard watching Clone Wars first will pay off as Rebels does call back to it a number of times. Not so much that if you haven't seen Clone Wars you'll be missing out a lot, but there are several plot threads from that series that Rebels has carried on, picked up, and a number of twists I think are going to come that will make Clone Wars more relevant as Rebels develops.
Skymate wrote: I thought of something on my second screening of the film.
What if the 'Rebel base' on Dantooine Leia mentions in E4 is the Jedi covenant from the KOTOR games. What if the Rebels tried to use it as a base but gave up as it was haunted by Reven's ghost?
This is all just my own speculation and theorising
Jedi Ghosts, sure, but not Revan. Thats probably one of the last places he'd haunt.
Yoda's motivations are explained really well (and without too much waffle) in Season 1 of Rebels.
Spoiler:
In short, he realises that so much of The Empire's rise is on him.
The Sith grew right under his nose. He watched and even joined in as The Jedi were manipulated into becoming warriors and generals, rather than peacekeepers.
It's a really good scene, especially as Frank Oz is voicing Yoda. Do seek it out!
If forced to watch the Prequels, I'd still go in chronological order. I get doing it 4, 5, 2, 3, 6 the first time but at this point, I'm not exactly trying to avoid spoilers, so I'd just go 1-7 and slot R1 (and presumably Han Solo Goes Solo) in between 3 and 4. I don't think I could watch 4 before R1, as they fit together so nicely. In fact, I can't wait to do that, as ANH's opening act after the Tantive IV scene might work better as a cool down after the all-out battle at the end of R1, rather than what it is now, a slightly padded exposition-heavy opening segment.
Crazy_Carnifex wrote: Yeah, I'd say "Hatchet+" (because the two newest movies are added onto either end) is the best way to marathon the movies now.
Optional: Take a break between 2 and 3 to binge-watch the Clone Wars.
Is Clone Wars worth it? I tried watching a couple of episodes some years ago and found it very tedious
It's not as consistent as series 2 and 3 of Rebels, but at its best there's some of the best Star Wars stories ever told in there (as well as some real crap, like 90% of the Senate-based episodes, and the one where Jar-Jar is mistaken for a Jedi... ). Most of the stuff in series 3, 4 and 5 are self-contained arcs that run about an hour each, and there are a few that are simply fantastic standalone stories. There's plenty of lists out there of the good ones, so even if you just buy a handful of arcs on Itunes then it's worth at least looking into. The Krell/Umbara, Citadel and Onderon arcs are great 'war stories' in the vein of Rogue One, the Mandalore arc is a lot longer (it does span series 2 to 5 with a mini-arc each series), but culminates in the return of one of the coolest and most underused characters in all of Star Wars...
Matthew wrote: Eh, I don't see the point of putting ep 2 and 3 between 5 and 6, much better to do 2, 3, Han Solo movie, Rogue One, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9.
The main purpose is to preserve the significant plot twists in 5, and to move the other plot twist in 6 to 3. If you have already watched all the Star Wars movies and know the story then there isn't really any reason for inserting 2 and 3 between 5 and 6, unless you like the flow. But if you have never seen Star Wars, and you haven't been hit with "Luke, I am your father" quotes all your life, then the machete order is really a good choice IMO. If this is your first experience in Star Wars it gives you:
Rogue One: Basically serves as a foreword to the novel. You see the galaxy, you see the Empire, you see the Rebellion, you see the Death Star, and you see Vader on a murderous rampage. It gives away absolutely nothing about what is to come, it doesn't spoil any plots, it reinforces some of the elements of Episode IV, and it lets you know that this is a bad universe to live in.
Episode IV: Picks up right where the foreword leaves off, and introduces us to the main characters of the saga. We know why the plans are important, we know why she is looking for Old Ben, we know why Darth Vader is feared, and we know why we should care about the rebellion. It also makes Luke sound even more like a whiny bitch when he complains about having to pick up power converters after we just watched everybody die in Rogue One.
Episode V: Good follow up from Episode IV, and it is a good peak from the "Vader is one fethed up bad guy, slaughtering everyone" in Rogue One, "Vader is such a bad guy that he even killed Luke's father and Old Ben" in Episode IV, to "Vader freezes people, holds people hostage, climactic fight against Luke, cut his hand off.......WTF!!!!!!! HE'S HIS DAD!!!??!??!??!" in Episode V. That reveal is part of what makes Episode V such an epic classic. And it leaves you with the shock of finding out that Vader is the father and that the good guys are running away. Episode V is a downer.
Episode I: We ignore, because nothing happens that has any significance to the rest of the movies. You can insert a YouTube clip of Duel of the Fates, and you got the best part of the movie. The few bits of knowledge that matter are mentioned and addressed in II and III.
Episode II & III: Fresh of the "Vader...what...how...when" shock we got from watching Episode V, we get the extended flashback of just how Anakin became Vader. We see the struggle, we see Emperor, we see why he should be feared, we see how Vader was corrupted, we see how the Empire came to be and how the seeds of the rebellion were planted. We see Luke ended up surrounded by scratchy sand that gets everywhere, and we get another "holy crap....there are two of them....Leia is his sister???" plot twist. And just like Episode V it ends on a bad note for the good guys.
Episode VI: Armed with the knowledge of how Vader came to be, we get to watch the evolution of Luke. And after watching Anakin slowly turn into Vader, it is obvious that Luke is going down the same path. He's dressed in all black, like Anakin. He threatens to just slaughter people, and does, to free his friends. He's more like Anakin than Kenobi on this journey. Seeing Anakin fall, and seeing the similarities in Luke, makes Episode VI more meaningful IMO.
And if your ass isn't sore yet, you can watch VII
Watching in numerical order just gives away all the plot twists in the original episodes. We get the "here is your fathers lightsaber, I took it for him after chopping him to bits and left him burning alive, he killed a bunch of younglings with it" memes, because we know the background. Again, no problem if you already watched them all, but I think it lessens the impact of the originals if you've never seen them before.
When my daughter watches Star Wars for the first time in a few years, I'll sit down and do the Machete Order with her.
Ahtman wrote: I don't call them Episodes I go by the original posters so it would be:
Rogue One: A Star Wars Story
Star Wars
Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back
Star Wars: Return Of the Jedi
Star Wars: The Force Awakens
They aren't my supervisor; they can't tell me what to do.
I don't have kids, but if I were to kidnap some, I'd make them watch Star Wars in the order Ahtman recommends. However, I will call them by the episode # because to hell with those stranger's kids I kidnapped.
I have a crazy idea. Would it be possible to ditch episodes 1 to 3, renumber the remaining episodes (IV becomes 1, V becomes II etc.) and retell the story of Anakin's fall as stand alone movie(s)?
So the viewing order would go something like:
Rogue One
Episode IV (I)
Episode V (II)
New Vader story
Episode VI (III)
Episode VII (IV)
So future generations can watch it without spoilers, and all that dumb prequel nonsense* is ditched?
-Loki- wrote: The prequels aren't going anywhere and it's super unlikely Disney will put any effort into redoing them in any capacity.
Well if you fast forward everything besides:
*Landing of droid army
*Machine battle
*Arena battle where all the Jedis are being killed. *Post Arena trooper battle and Yoda vs. Dracula fight
*Storm troopers marching on Jedi temple.
*fight between Jedi and Sith and rise of Vader
*fight between Sith and Yoda
Then its not a bad movie. (notice how there's no scenes involving Anakin Skywalker except when he becomes Darth?
It would be pretty amazing if Ep8 & 9 had Anakin and Obi-wan Force ghosts played by Hayden and Ewan respectively.
If done right (i.e not over done), it could go a long way towards redeeming the prequels.
Since the movies keep getting better (TFA, and not R1) I have not doubt it can be done right.
Manchu wrote: When will Disney release Star War: The Force Falls Asleep?
Episode 8, Luke petitions the galactic senate for Jedi College funding and Graduate School Scholarships...
The Luke Skywalker School for Kids Who Can't Use the Force Real Good (but Can Use the Force) and Want to Do Other Stuff Good Too (and Not Evil Stuff)?
ya I wouldn't go to any of Luke's school, the title would be more like
Lukes school for force users, if you go bad, I'll cut and run and let you kill all the other pupils and do your evil and not tell anyone even my sister where to find me.
Manchu wrote: When will Disney release Star War: The Force Falls Asleep?
Episode 8, Luke petitions the galactic senate for Jedi College funding and Graduate School Scholarships...
Trade route negotiations are always a quality narrative hook.
To be fair, it could have been. Even Captain America Winter Soldier did a superhero film disguised as a political thriller, and the light political side wasn't terrible. Political themes don't immediately take away from being a fun action or adventure film.
Am I the only one who liked both Force Awakens and Rogue One?
Force Awakens did a great job of creating a new generation of heroes and making Han Solo pass down the torch.
Rogue One was a great way to make Star Wars more gritty, and we got to see the true power of the Empire.
If I had to rank the Star Wars movies?
Phantom Menace 2/10
Attack of the Clones 4/10
Revenge of the Sith 6/10
Rogue One 8/10 (with the best space battle, last 15 minutes was 10/10)
Star Wars 8/10
Empire Strikes Back 7.5/10
Return of the Jedi 9/10
Force Awakens 7/10
Matthew wrote: Am I the only one who liked both Force Awakens and Rogue One?
No, I enjoyed them both. I think you're a bit harsh on Phantom Menace though. The lightsaber duel with Darth Maul and the "Duel of Fates" song are both bitchin!
Better than Obi-Wan's "I can't straighten my elbows" fighting technique in A New Hope.
I always saw "The Force Awakens" as less lazy and shadow plagiarising and more. "Ok, so, yeah, we know the prequels sucked. We really know they do. But let us remind you of some of the original trilogy's greatest hits."
Less plagiarising, more of a cover band and tribute act of the good old days.
That also introduces things to kids who never saw the original band play but heard bits and pieces of various songs over the years.
I feel like I am one of the few people who likes "Star Wars"...all of it. Even the prequels. They clearly have their flaws, but there are enough high points (Obi-wan, Maul, etc) that contribute to the overall world that I can still watch them over and over again. Force Awakens needed to be, as Compel says, "the original trilogies greatest hits". That geared everyone up and made the audience realize that you can get back some of the magic. Rogue One was then able to add something new, and I have no doubt that Ep8 will be something like we've never seen before.
Matthew wrote: Am I the only one who liked both Force Awakens and Rogue One?
Force Awakens did a great job of creating a new generation of heroes and making Han Solo pass down the torch.
Rogue One was a great way to make Star Wars more gritty, and we got to see the true power of the Empire.
If I had to rank the Star Wars movies?
Phantom Menace 2/10
Attack of the Clones 4/10
Revenge of the Sith 6/10
Rogue One 8/10 (with the best space battle, last 15 minutes was 10/10)
Star Wars 8/10
Empire Strikes Back 7.5/10
Return of the Jedi 9/10
Force Awakens 7/10
You rated EWOKS better than the original Death Star? I will have to assume you had a stroke or something while typing and meant to type something completely different.
Here's mine-worst to best 5 being worst
6. Some crystal meth nightmare where I dreamed they turned VADER into a spoiled emo teenager, had a racist Jamaican, and Yoda beat Dracula in a sword fight...wow what a nightmare.
5. Force Awakens
4. Return of the Jedi (because...EWOKS)
3. Rogue One
2. Star Wars
1. Empire Strikes Back
Galef wrote: I feel like I am one of the few people who likes "Star Wars"...all of it. Even the prequels. They clearly have their flaws, but there are enough high points (Obi-wan, Maul, etc) that contribute to the overall world that I can still watch them over and over again.
Force Awakens needed to be, as Compel says, "the original trilogies greatest hits". That geared everyone up and made the audience realize that you can get back some of the magic. Rogue One was then able to add something new, and I have no doubt that Ep8 will be something like we've never seen before.
-
You're not the only one! I can't really rewatch the prequels unless it's an edited version or I skip through most of the Anakid and Jar-Jar scenes, but other than that I'll take just about anything Star Wars. TFA was utterly brilliant as far as I'm concerned, even if it did take a lot from ANH it did it so well and differently enough that it's not a problem. I enjoy the parallels in character between the OT and new trilogy generations, I love the fact there was an homage trench run at the end, I love the fact Kylo is just a crap Vader. All that to me isn't copying, it's just a tribute to the OT and its awesomeness.
Everything that was new from Ep VII was great. The retreaded bits were not only dumb but made dumber by the fact that they were hogging resources from the new stuff. Starkiller Base gets a lot of flak here but the worst was Maz Kanata.
Matthew wrote: Am I the only one who liked both Force Awakens and Rogue One?
I thought they were both excellent.
For me;
If I had to rank the Star Wars movies?
Phantom Menace 1/10
Attack of the Clones 4/10
Revenge of the Sith 4/10
Rogue One 9/10
Star Wars 8/10
Empire Strikes Back 9/10
Return of the Jedi 8/10
Force Awakens 8/10
I don't really care that they retreaded ground in Force Awakens. That was a blatantly purposeful decision, and I think they did a good job at just about everything except a bunch of little details (Captain Phasma was a complete push over, Kylo Ren without his mask being a bit to stereotypically angsty and that hair eck, and the general plot being a little too much "get ready for all the sequels" for my taste).
RiTides wrote: Maz was my wife's favourite part of the film by a long shot, just fyi
Haha, what on earth? I can understand liking the set design and the background aliens but the character herself was rubbish both in terms of her design and her role/dialogue. That whole scene felt like a compromise, like no one agreed on how to progress the story so they just dropped in a Yoda/Cantina mashup. The following raid by Kylo and his goons, and then the return of Poe, was very good, however. I am more cynical than I would like but even I cheered when Poe swooped in with his squad and picked off those stormtroopers.
Paradigm wrote: ...I love the fact Kylo is just a crap Vader....
I don't think of Kylo as "crap Vader", instead I see him as "better Anakin"
It all about perspective, or as Obi-wan says "a certain point of view"
-
I just see him as crappy. The difference between him and Vader in Rogue One were so striking. It really highlights the weakness of the Ren character and TFA's "cover band" like quality.
I really like Kylo Ren as a character. The temptation subversion is pretty interesting to me. I also like how he is 'realistically' competent. When he succeeds, it's believable. When he fails, it's believable. Maybe a better way to put that is, his successes and failures are meaningful from a plot/characterization perspective - rather than just happening because X needs to happen at minute mark Y. And he has arc. So as a character, he's relateable, has coherent stakes, and develops in an interesting way.
He works at a "meta" level as well - he's basically a SW fan who never saw the prequels.
RiTides wrote: Maz was my wife's favourite part of the film by a long shot, just fyi
Haha, what on earth?
I'm not saying it's logical, I'm just saying . I also quite like the character, but can't tell subjectively anymore, since that biased me towards her! She seemed fun, my main thought was her establishment felt a little too much like the mos eisley bar, but she herself I really liked
I call the character Sassy Orange Yoda. It's sort of like Mountain Dew Code Red but less original. Sassy Orange Yoda was a pretty clear rehash of Yoda's "I'm quirky but don't underestimate me" bit and, unfortunately, a real waste of Lupita Ngoyo in terms of that actress's beauty. Instead of this gorgeous woman we get dual citrine-hued cat anuses pointed at us through swimming goggles, yuck. Sassy Orange Yoda is supposed to be wise, like Classic Yoda, but says nothing that isn't already established. She just says it in, like, a mystical way I guess. And for no reason she has Anakin's lightsaber in her downstairs linen closet. I haven't seen a character this pasted-on since ... oh nevermind, I saw Rogue One pretty recently.
I get it, Disney has to throw all this rehash stuff in because they need to prove this is really SW. I just hope they are over it now and can move on with Episode VIII and use new ideas and themes, which were the best parts of Episode VII and, sadly, didn't make it to R1.
Manchu wrote: unfortunately, a real waste of Lupita Ngoyo in terms of that actress's beauty.
I had to look it up myself originally, as it seemed an odd choice, and I can recall two others that said something along the lines of "I thought Lupita Ngoyo was supposed to be in this" and were disappointed to find out that it was just a voice. I'm not as down on VII as some but man was that a waste of a good actress.
Also - Kylo Ren would make no sense if he was as powerful as Vader. He's a Vader-wannabe, after all.
IMHO he isn't Vader was completely dominated by the emperor until Luke came along, so he didn't have
the mental instability Kylo has.
Watched Rogue one yesterday again, i thought the slight shake of the camera during the hangar scene was the only time
but it seems it was during the whole movie, once i was into to the story i didn't mind it but during slow moments, i started to notice
it.
I don't understand in this age of steady cams, computer aided filming that they feel the need to add a "natural" shake,
Every mobile phone, camera has anti shake software these days, or did they blow all their budget on the CGI?
Matthew wrote: Am I the only one who liked both Force Awakens and Rogue One?
I thought they were both excellent.
For me;
If I had to rank the Star Wars movies?
Phantom Menace 1/10
Attack of the Clones 4/10
Revenge of the Sith 4/10
Rogue One 9/10
Star Wars 8/10
Empire Strikes Back 9/10
Return of the Jedi 8/10
Force Awakens 8/10
I don't really care that they retreaded ground in Force Awakens. That was a blatantly purposeful decision, and I think they did a good job at just about everything except a bunch of little details (Captain Phasma was a complete push over, Kylo Ren without his mask being a bit to stereotypically angsty and that hair eck, and the general plot being a little too much "get ready for all the sequels" for my taste).
I would raise RotS by 1 and drop RotJ by 1, and then agree with that rating. Maybe call TPM a 2/10 cuz it had quite a few AWESOME duels.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I heard that she originally had a much larger part but J.J. Abrams et al gutted it because they were dissatisfied with her performance or something.
That was the speculation. JJ said it was just an unfortunate part of the editing process, same with the ending where Leia doesn't even seem to acknowledge Chewie.
Yeah, there's an axle involving Leia with that too. It's a great Carrie scene but the is, the very nature of the scene requires it to happen before the Starkiller fires. Which means you lose the emotional impact of the first time seeing Leia in the film is from Hans point of view.
The whole rebel fleet gets rekt by a space station and a pair of Star destroyers, and then finished off when the Dominator jumps in.
Aren't the only ships that get away are a Nebulon B and a transport? (And some snub fighters, of course)
I'm happy that Star Destroyers got made out to be actual threats, rather than Episode 5 and 6 saying that they are threats, and then being giant space putzes.
I think this is how the rating system works [i also posted this on another site]
Revenge of the sith: The 'best' of a bad lot
Empire strike back: The best of the original trilogy
Force awakens: [by default its going to win isnt it as its the only sequel film out at the moment]
Rogue one: Best stand alone film
Rebels: Best cartoon
Crap no body cares about nor wants to see again
Droids cartoon
Ewoks cartoon
Ewoks TV movies
Holiday special
Ewoks on ice
I think Episode VIII will be the real test of Disney. I have no doubt that Disney can produce a good - or even great - SW movie. But they are going to have to let their creative people work on longer leashes.
Phantom Menace 2/10
Attack of the Clones 2/10
Revenge of the Sith 2/10
Rogue One 7/10
Star Wars 8/10
Empire Strikes Back 8/10
Return of the Jedi 8/10
Force Awakens 7/10
I think Episode VIII will be the real test of Disney. I have no doubt that Disney can produce a good - or even great - SW movie. But they are going to have to let their creative people work on longer leashes.
Quick! Have the First Order, acting in rage over the destruction of their sphere of death, strike out at Leia's new Resistance base hidden away on an ice planet. They could use giant walkers, or something.
(The walker, not just the legs. That would be awkward...)
Finally got to see Rogue One last night. Not quite what I expected, and a little slow and jarring with all the jumping around at the start... but thoroughly enjoyable once it got going.
Glad I managed to remain mostly spoiler-free, as there were some nice surprises that would have been a shame to miss out on.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Matthew wrote: Am I the only one who liked both Force Awakens and Rogue One?
Force Awakens did a great job of creating a new generation of heroes and making Han Solo pass down the torch.
I enjoyed the hell out of EpVII... but in the same way as I enjoy the prequels. They're fun, so long as you don't think about them too hard.
I don't care about the parallels to EpIV - recurring themes have always been a thing in Star Wars. The only real issues for me are the 'dial-it-up-to-11' pacing and Abrahms' apparent need to push things just that little bit too over the top. In the same way that teleporting across the galaxy was pushing things too far in Star Trek, Starkiller Base was bad not because it was 'just another Death Star' but because it was stupidly implausible, and did silly things that were poorly explained. 'Just another Death Star' but a little bigger and a little more powerful would have actually been preferable, IMO.
Talking about it last night, it struck me that the Force Awakens, while it looks like the Original Trilogy, feels like one of the Prequel films. While Rogue One definitely had more of the ESB-vibe going on.
The prequels have a very distinctive look - almost every shot is flat, static, and squared relative to the frame, like paintings or maybe ad copy photos. They are almost like stage plays, kind of like movies from the 30s. There are no characters in the prequels, just props - some talk, others buzz or beep, still others remain blessedly silent. The foreground props are (sometimes) physical while the background props are (always) digital, and like proudly so. The lighting is painfully artificial/stylized throughout. Any shot that is not a close-up is cluttered like a Where's Waldo puzzle.
That said, TFA did not remind me of ANH or ESB in its direction; more like RotJ - which is not a criticism, mind. RotJ is a great-looking movie, just not as distinctive as ANH or iconic as ESB.
R1 looked like no other SW movie to me, and I think that was intentional. It did remind me a bit of the Force Unleashed video games, in terms of faded color and being underlit.
Not doing a good job explaining the interim between VI and VII is my biggest complaint. It was a fun movie that laid the groundwork (as safely as it could) for hopefully better films.
Eldarain wrote: Not doing a good job explaining the interim between VI and VII is my biggest complaint.
Looking at it solely as a movie, that's a valid complaint. From Disney's point of view, I think they were looking more at the universe and their retail offerings for it as a whole entity, and so the backstory didn't need to be fleshed out in the movie because you would be buying all of the books as they come out to fill in the gaps.
Which, of course, doesn't help the casual movie-goer who doesn't read the books.
On a related note - I just finished reading Aftermath. Didn't mind it, but it was really weird after several decades of the old EU. For some reason, I'm having much more trouble wrapping my head around the book stories being 'different' than I had with TFA. Maybe because with a movie it's so much easier to just switch off and go for the ride...
I'm reading Catalyst, at the moment.
Back story on Galen and Krennic and the setup for the death star.
I purged most of the EU stuff from my tablet (I scored an old kobo reader, and it still had a memory card in it, with the whole EU collection on it as well as a bunch of AGoT and Lotr stuff). Kept the Rogue/wraith squadron novels.
The only other novel I've read in the new continuity was "A new Dawn" - the Rebels tie in.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: No, I actually enjoyed the Yuuzhaan Vong arc. Only read bits and pieces of it (like, two books) so might as well read the complete arc.
I enjoyed it as well. Sorry for you guys who hated it.
Not really. They're humanoid religious fanatics with biological 'technology' who venerate pain and regard machines as blasphemous.
While the actual writing was somewhat variable, it was an interesting story arc, if only because it was something different from the normal 'Evil warlord finds/builds/steals a superweapon. Chaos ensues' storyline that kept repeating itself throughout the EU.
I actually look more favorably at the Yuuzhaan Vong arc now than when it first came out, if only because what came after it was just a long line of boring and cliche (even by the standards of the EU). And what came next was even worse. At least with the Yuuzhaan Vong there was still some creativity going on.
I wholeheartedly agree! The Yuuzhan Vong were a very original idea for Star Wars, as they weren't the Empire all over again, and they weren't Sith either. They were a completely alien enemy. I wish they had made it into movies or video games, as I consider them one of my favorite things from the old EU (the Legends universe).
P.S. There were some Yuuzhan Vong miniatures in the Wizards of the Coast Star Wars miniatures game. They were terrible statwise, though, for the most part, but cool minis!
Yikes - startling rehabilitation going on here of one of the most infamous EU follies. Let's clarify that the EU had not "gotten into a rut" before the Vong showed up; rather, the EU itself was the rut that Star Wars had fallen into. The original EU only existed because of LFL's strategy of reviving/maintaining brand while earning licensing revenue. When Lucas unleashed the prequels on the world, the purpose of the EU shifted somewhat to inter-movie filler, which Disney has not only carried on but cranked up. The New Jedi Order project, and thus the Yuuzhan Vong, came about as part of this shift.
In short, the NJO series was to the world of SW novels and comics what the prequels were to the larger franchise: an embarrassing departure from the established "spirit" of the property. I firmly believe that bad creative decisions parody themselves and this was no exception: running exactly parallel to the series plot, SW as a brand was being invaded by something from outside of it, something completely alien. Even at the time, it struck me that the series editor was tacitly admiting there was nothing interesting left to do with the realSW.
Between this and the midi-chlorian fueled idiot bonanza that is Phantom Menance, my hitherto love of SW took a serious beating - briefly alleviated by KotOR (which would of course later be bled of all magic and wonder as a MMO). For fans a little younger than me, I guess they might look on th NJO series with nostalgia, just like they are more generous to the prequels. For me, these were "the dark times" Obi-wan warned us about ...
Here's a fun fact: The climatic third act in "Rogue One: A Star Wars Story" that featured a lightsaber-wielding Darth Vader was added in reshoots.
One of the film's editors, John Gilroy, recently confirmed to Yahoo Movies that the fan-favorite scene was indeed reshot.
"What was added -- and it was a fantastic add -- was the Vader action scene, with him boarding the ship and dispatching all those rebel soldiers," said Gilroy. "That was something conceptualized a little later."
It was one of the film's biggest highlights, displaying the Sith Lord in all his weapon-wielding glory, using the dark side of the Force to swiftly kill numerous rebels.
I tried to read a couple of the NJO novels and gave up on them. Going through the list of published titles (270-odd) I'd read 24 of them.
(Also the "precocious jedi children" stories I just didn't bother with ... I don't like children at the best of times. )
On the plus side, I never had to read how chewie had a moon land on him. Sure, Wookiees should be hard to kill, but "drop a bigger elephant" isn't always the way to do it.
Admittedly, my "favourite" EU novels WERE written by gamers, though (Robert Stackpole was a gamer back then - as evidenced by his other work for "Battletech", too). Zahn's were the first to resurrect the property, but got a bit ... samey.
I watched Rogue One for the third time last night. It's very rare that I watch a film in the cinema more than once. I think the last time I did it was when Episode 1 was released. It got me thinking about why I think Rogue One is a much better film than Episode 7 and I thought I'd just ramble a bit about that.
The biggest issue with Episode 7 for me is that it's basically a remake of Episode 4. I appreciate that this was intentional, that doesn't make the film any better though. It's hard to judge it too closely without having seen Episodes 8 and 9, but as it stands at the moment I'm not sure it's a film that will stand the test of time on its own merits.
Episode 7 shows us what George Lucas could have done, but thankfully didn't do, with the prequels. Instead of following the formula of the Original Trilogy he gave us a fully realized galaxy-spanning Republic, with the political intrigue that came along with it. The fact that he didn't do this well is almost beside the point, at least he progressed and fleshed out the Star Wars Universe. I wouldn't have thought it possible but seeing Episode 7 (I've only seen it once mind you) actually made me appreciate the prequels a bit more.
If Episode 8 starts with the bad guys attacking the Alliance on an ice planet it's going to be very hard for me not to walk out of the cinema then and there...
While Rogue One did give a lot of nods to Episode 4, it did it to complement the film, not just shoveling something familiar at us in the hope that we'd eat it up. It did plenty of new things too, mainly with the whole tone and grittiness of the galaxy, and blurring the lines of what is right in the struggle between the Empire and the Alliance. In my view it balanced the need to be a prequel to 4 and the need to give us something new perfectly.
Rogue One is, in my mind, the best Star Wars film to come out since Empire Strikes Back (i.e. it's better than Return of the Jedi).
That's my take on it anyway. Rogue One seems to be a pretty divisive film so far, with some thinking as I do and others thinking that it's not as good as Episode 7.
I think the biggest reason the prequels failed is because lucas didn't had a brake, in ep. 4,5,6 there were budget restrictions, and it wasn't just a one man operation, i mean, one man that controls everything
from story to shooting, music, cinematography, it was much more a group effort. In the pre-quells it was like he was Louis the 14th surrounded by sychopants.
Jehan-reznor wrote: I think the biggest reason the prequels failed is because lucas didn't had a brake, in ep. 4,5,6 there were budget restrictions, and it wasn't just a one man operation, i mean, one man that controls everything from story to shooting, music, cinematography, it was much more a group effort. In the pre-quells it was like he was Louis the 14th surrounded by sychopants.
That is exactly right. We had Ralph McQuarrie providing the conceptual art. Then there was Irvin Kershner directing Empire, with Leigh Brackett co-writing it with Lucas. Long story short, back then Lucas had a lot of studio oversight keeping him in check, and it really shows.
I'll always wonder if Episode 7 was an inter-studio dare that Star Wars fans are rabid enough to pay for anything with the name on it, or at least desperate enough after all these years that they would snap anything up, even if it's just practically a rewrite.
AegisGrimm wrote: I'll always wonder if Episode 7 was an inter-studio dare that Star Wars fans are rabid enough to pay for anything with the name on it, or at least desperate enough after all these years that they would snap anything up, even if it's just practically a rewrite.
Or, you know, we could enjoy it. I just watched it for the third time on Friday night.
Rogue one was a good movie, was it perfect? Heck no but the direction it took was fresh and interesting for the star wars franchise. The movie itself seemed much darker and gritter than most of the main series of films really focusing on the "War" part of star wars (can I just say how much I like the way the rebels were portrayed, shown multiple times as doing anything if it helped there cause regardless of who might get hurt in the process) however for me the flaws of the movie came down to the main character and the GCI faces. Jyn Erso was an underused character, and any moments that she gained character came across as rushed and in truth actually quite boring, I personally feel they needed to either give her more screentime or much less, as it was she got ended up being rushed and underdeveloped, this bewilders me because some of the other cast managed to be very interesting characters without even getting much of a backstory.
Cassian for me was the stand out character from the film (Well him and K2), while he didn't get some huge backstory he did get moments that told you exactly what kind of person he was, on the whole the "troubled soldier" angle hasn't been used much in star wars, seeing Cassian admit that he has done many horrid things all in the name of ending the war really tugged my heartstrings somewhat.
But honestly the short review would be this: Hot damn that Vader fight! 8/10
Anyone else find it odd that most of the guys who are bashing E7 are the ones who love the NJO [and similar] novels. Those books would suck as films. They'd have all the problems of the prequels [annoying children, tedious table discussions and unfunny sidekicks] The last thing I want to see are film [or TV] adaptions of the Young Jedi Knights, Jedi Prince [that non-entity is crappier than the holiday special] and or any other boring novel in which one-dimensional characters with unpronounceable names sit at tables and shout exposition at each other about yet more super-weapons
I'm sorry if I sound mad, I have PTSD
The Aftermath trilogy for instance. The story, and particular the charting of the rise of the New Republic, and Mon Mothma's philosophy is really really good. But, Chuck Wendig's prose is a little off-putting. I know it's not just me, as much of criticism (which has been comparatively gentle and constructive for nerds) say much the same thing - good plot, writing a bit jarring.
Bloodline however is superb.
So far as I'm aware, they're all currently hardback, and thus perhaps a bit price off-putting for nervous or casual readers. If you can get them on e-book however, or can borrow a copy, I would say give them a read, see what you think.
Biggest difference?
Spoiler:
Mon Mothma is quite right. The New Republic cannot be a militaristic affair. They shouldn't be capturing and repurposing Star Destroyers or Super Star Destroyers, as to the populace it's just The Empire by another name, and given Palpatine only seized power 30 years ago, all too fresh in the mind of many
MDG - I agree with you RE: Mon Mothma and the captured Imperial fleet ... those ships were designed along the same lines as the Death Star - to overawe, subjugate, and preemptively demolish resistance. They are inherently symbols of tyranny.
I think TFA overall was more enjoyable than bad/boring but I do wish they had spent a bit more time - more than one quick cutaway shot of the doomed Senate - establishing what had happened since the Battle of Endor. We shouldn't have to read novels and comics or whatever to obtain the necessary exposition - although obviously Disney did not consider this stuff necessary, I guess.
I think they were too afraid of comparisons to the prequels on this score.
Skymate wrote: Anyone else find it odd that most of the guys who are bashing E7 are the ones who love the NJO [and similar] novels. Those books would suck as films. They'd have all the problems of the prequels [annoying children, tedious table discussions and unfunny sidekicks] The last thing I want to see are film [or TV] adaptions of the Young Jedi Knights, Jedi Prince [that non-entity is crappier than the holiday special] and or any other boring novel in which one-dimensional characters with unpronounceable names sit at tables and shout exposition at each other about yet more super-weapons
I'm sorry if I sound mad, I have PTSD
I don't have a lot of experience with the NJO so I can't judge it's overall quality, but not all good books make good movies and vis versa. Yes, some of the things that are used as metrics for books apply to movies, but a lot of things don't carry over. For example, I enjoyed Pacific Rim because of the special effects and awe-inspiring visuals. But I can't imagine any book based on the movie's story (even taking significant liberties with plot and detail) being very good at all. On the flip side The Hobbit is a good book, but one that is mainly intended as a children's story. Its chapters end at convenient stopping points, it's imaginative and evocative without needless complexity, it's dramatic without being intense, it's relatively short, and it wraps everything up in the end. These qualities are good in a book, but when the live-action movie trilogy was made significant changes were made to it as to appeal to movie-goers because the book's charms didn't translate well to a blockbuster. (And yes, I know about the animated Hobbit movie, but I'm talking about the live-action ones.) In addition books and movies are often held to different standards even in the same category, and that's okay. Most of the comedy movies I like are funnier than the majority of comedy books that I read, because they can use sound and speech in addition to writing for maximum effect.
TLDR: not all books would make movies that are on a similar level of quality as the book.
Skymate wrote: Anyone else find it odd that most of the guys who are bashing E7 are the ones who love the NJO [and similar] novels. Those books would suck as films. They'd have all the problems of the prequels [annoying children, tedious table discussions and unfunny sidekicks] The last thing I want to see are film [or TV] adaptions of the Young Jedi Knights, Jedi Prince [that non-entity is crappier than the holiday special] and or any other boring novel in which one-dimensional characters with unpronounceable names sit at tables and shout exposition at each other about yet more super-weapons
I'm sorry if I sound mad, I have PTSD
Except I/we are not advocating the direct adaptation of those books. This is a straw man.
Episode 7, for all its faults, was a fun popcorn movie. The thing Abrams did right for that movie was putting the adventure back in and making it fun again. I even hold that view for his initial reboot of Star Trek.
I was only underwhelmed by E7 because I have watched A New Hope so many times that I was kind of bummed to see it again, just with different characters. Rogue One was so much cooler!
sorry... Just coming in but my Yuuzhan Vong sense was tingling... I had to see what was going on...
I just want to say I loved the NJO arc... I regret not going through it while it was new... I hadn't actually got into the EU books until maybe early 2000s when I was reading more... I read the books back to back and fell in love with each one.
I have a bit more respect for some characters after that series... especially Kyle Katarn... I thought he was some marketing thing for Star Wars but I like some of the stuff that happened with him in the books... also Jaina is my waifu (that's how the kids say it right?).
I still need to read anything after that... in fact I'm getting back on track with the old EU; trying to read according to the 'timeline' that you used to see in the beginning of the books.
Oh but in relation to the movie... I haven't seen it... and I don't know if I want to... the only reason I saw The Force Awakens is because my parents wanted to watch a movie when we went out after Christmas and they wanted to see that (which is kind of neat since I first saw Episode IV in theatres when my mom and dad took me... I think at that time it hadn't even had the whole 'episode' thing attached to it... the circle is complete.)
I would recommend just stopping after the Vong series. They get progressively worse very quickly after that.
This.
About the only good thing to come out of the following series(s) was Vestara Khai, and she quickly descended into being way to angsty and brooding to stay as interesting as she initially was.
Oddly enough, there were still other good books coming out from elsewhere in the timeline (I enjoyed the hell out of Kenobi. It would make an awesome movie)... Just the post-Vong stuff got progressively sillier and weirder, and all of the writers involved with that arc seemed to be just phoning it in.
I watched Rogue One for the 4th time yesterday. I just can't get enough of this film! I wonder how many times I'll be watching it once the Bluray comes out...
Everything that could be said about this film has probably already been said in this thread, just thought I'd make a few observations that have stood out after multiple viewings:
My favourite quote (I paraphrase):
"Can you stand to see the Imperial flag reign over the galaxy?"
"It's not a problem if you don't look up."
One of the main criticisms I see about this film is the lack of character development. I just don't see it. Both Jyn and Cassian are fleshed out and their actions are believable, based on what we know about them. I especially liked Jyn, who went from being uncaring to a devoted Rebel in a believable way. Her father's dying wish being that she steal the Death Star plans was motivation enough I think. Felicity Jones being easy on the eye helps too.
The other characters were a bit more expendable, though I cared about them enough to feel it when they died. K2SO I could take or leave really. Not that there was anything wrong with the character, we've just seen the droid comic relief character before.
My criticisms of the film are mainly nit picks. One of the main ones is the overuse of people talking about The Force. Where I noticed it most is when the Mon Calamari Admiral Raddus sees that the Rebels on the planet are all going to be wiped out and says "Rogue One, may the Force be with you." Firstly, why does he even know what Rogue One is? Secondly, the impression I got from Episode 4 was that the Force is a mythical thing which most people consider fictional. Its liberal use in this film just didn't feel right.
There were just so many nice little touches that make this film worth watching. When the Rebel fleet comes out of hyperspace and both Gold Leader and Red Leader chime in was one of them. I thought they had just reused footage from Episode 4, though I have read that some unused footage from the film was also used. To me this film was clearly a labour of love by people who love the franchise.
I think that while the Force is a myth to a lot of the galaxy, it's still kind of fundamental to the Rebel cause and ideal; ultimately, the Rebellion want to 'reset' to the days of the Republic, and the Jedi and common knowledge of the Force is a big part of that. Before launching the attack on the first Death Star, the Rebel commander says 'May the Force be with you', so hearing it here isn't exactly out of place.
The outer rim territories and the common folk of the galaxy could very easily forget it all, hence why people like Han dismiss it out of hand, but it's basically what and why the Rebels are fighting.
El Torro wrote: I watched Rogue One for the 4th time yesterday. I just can't get enough of this film! I wonder how many times I'll be watching it once the Bluray comes out...
Everything that could be said about this film has probably already been said in this thread, just thought I'd make a few observations that have stood out after multiple viewings:
My favourite quote (I paraphrase):
"Can you stand to see the Imperial flag reign over the galaxy?"
"It's not a problem if you don't look up."
One of the main criticisms I see about this film is the lack of character development. I just don't see it. Both Jyn and Cassian are fleshed out and their actions are believable, based on what we know about them. I especially liked Jyn, who went from being uncaring to a devoted Rebel in a believable way. Her father's dying wish being that she steal the Death Star plans was motivation enough I think. Felicity Jones being easy on the eye helps too.
The other characters were a bit more expendable, though I cared about them enough to feel it when they died. K2SO I could take or leave really. Not that there was anything wrong with the character, we've just seen the droid comic relief character before.
My criticisms of the film are mainly nit picks. One of the main ones is the overuse of people talking about The Force. Where I noticed it most is when the Mon Calamari Admiral Raddus sees that the Rebels on the planet are all going to be wiped out and says "Rogue One, may the Force be with you." Firstly, why does he even know what Rogue One is? Secondly, the impression I got from Episode 4 was that the Force is a mythical thing which most people consider fictional. Its liberal use in this film just didn't feel right.
There were just so many nice little touches that make this film worth watching. When the Rebel fleet comes out of hyperspace and both Gold Leader and Red Leader chime in was one of them. I thought they had just reused footage from Episode 4, though I have read that some unused footage from the film was also used. To me this film was clearly a labour of love by people who love the franchise.
They use the R1 call sign as they leave - so then various people get upset and bandy the name around so that its well known by the time they arrive at the attack site.
I guess that depends on your age, and your station.
Remember, Rogue One is a mere 19 years into the Emperor's reign, so for many, especially those in or aligned with the Senate, the Jedi are very much a living memory.
Now, a random spacer such as Han? Quite likely he's never heard of it - and given Luke's background, good reason Owen and Beru would've talked it down,
I'm not really seeing why people are reading the title as confirmation of anyone dying.
At the time the movies starts, Luke is (at least so far as we know) the last Jedi. Nobody has to die for that to be true.
If the title is referring to Rey, then unless she intends to go off an found her own academy or Luke decides to have a crack at it, then she would be setting herself up as the last Jedi. Nobody has to die for that to be true.
As I mentioned before, I fully expect that Luke will shuffle off at some point in either Ep8 or 9... but the title of the movie isn't conclusive proof of anything in itself.
As I mentioned before, I fully expect that Luke will shuffle off at some point in either Ep8 or 9... but the title of the movie isn't conclusive proof of anything in itself.
It's because Luke took his Jedi vows too seriously that he's the last one. The jedi should have been having kids with each other and created a "super race" of jedi!
(had a good laugh when those two showed up on screen, wonder how they got out of there XD). I'm sure everyone noticed the reference to the "jedi friend" and knew what it meant, as well as C-3PO and R2-D2's brief appearance. The Yavin lookout also counts.
).
