I'm stoked ! Less then yesterday but still a lot. The Coven of Twelve with the +1 AP trait looks appealing, I can see myself playing Kabals for the speed and anti-armour, and Covens for dealing with units with good saves.
Wondering how to use the Administer Punishment stratagem, though. Best for when the opponent tries to protect a unit from shooting ? It looks fun but from here I can hardly see how to use it effectively. Any input from more experienced players ?
The Dark Creed's stratagem to target Characters looks nice on paper too. Let's see if they improved the Coven's big monsters though, they're the ones with good ranged weaponry in the sub-faction.
Also, looks like we'll be drowning in CPs, I'm pleased. Let's see if there's more stratagems to abuse !
Fafnir wrote: The negative leadership penalties are cool, and sound like they'd be fun to build around, but I doubt it'll be efficient enough to justify the investment, especially when everyone and their dog is immune to leadership anyway. In a fun list, that would likely be my go-to for a coven, but the 4++ just seems way too good to pass up.
Very few units are actually immune to LD. Most just have LD high enough to make it pretty irrelevant in small squads.
But not when you can pretty trivially stack up -5 to -7LD on a unit.
This trait is going to be the gold standard on allied detachments tacked onto Eldar Soup lists. Take a FW Reaper to use the sniper strat. A couple of Raiders full of goodness to create -3LD bombs. Then add in the rest of the list with Farseers, Hemlocks, and other LD busting units and you've got a pretty killer list.
While i think the leadership reduction is fun and can be taken advantage of in an Eldar soup list, i don't think it'll be that competitive. Chaos currently have something similar, but it's never been that effective, and to soup in other Eldar you'll be dropping the chance of getting the 3 warlord traits in matched play.
Not convinced by the 2CP refresh a unit stratagem either. Wrack can currently only go up to 10 models in a unit. It's a lot of CP to bring back up to 9 4++ models.
Ld modifiers are worth very little against hordes. They're far more valuable against units with expensive individual models.
The problem with hordes is that, even in the best-case scenario, a -1 Ld modifier is worth only 1/2 a kill. For every model you actually kill, the unit is down a model and they're testing morale at -1, which at best causes another model to run. Compare this to an ability like "re-roll 1s to hit". If your unit can kill 3 GEQs then this is already better than -1 Ld on one unit.
And that's assuming that they had to test morale at all, and that they weren't already comfortably passing, and that you're not over-killing the unit. Say you've got a 10-man Ld 7 unit that's taken 3 casualties. With a -6 Ld modifier they're pretty boned -- on average, 5.33 more run away. Bumping up to a -7 modifier means that on average 6 run. That's 2/3 of a model and an 8% improvement in total casualties. If we're talking about Guardsmen, that's not great.
The problem is you can repeat this, asking whether it's worth doing whatever you have to do to get a -6 modifier instead of a -5, and also find that it's not worth it. And so on.
Hemlocks are a great bonus vs hordes because they're clearly not paying anything for a -2 Ld modifier and can project it over half of an army. Having to give up a 4++ and having to get within 6" is a big ask.
Tyel wrote: Like the flavours (although I think 4++ will be hard to beat) - but the big worry here was the lack of a clear buff to Talos/Chronus.
I think a 4++ on a Talos helps a lot personally, should help me cover the ground I need much more reliably. I say that as the owner of a Corpse Thief Claw so I'm with you 100% in that I'm hoping there's more.
I'm slightly surprised they didn't give any information on specific units. Usually previews include something like "btw, this unit got a point reduction, or is better because of X", like scourges yesterday.
So I suspect no big change in the covens units.
Tyel wrote: Like the flavours (although I think 4++ will be hard to beat) - but the big worry here was the lack of a clear buff to Talos/Chronus.
I think a 4++ on a Talos helps a lot personally, should help me cover the ground I need much more reliably. I say that as the owner of a Corpse Thief Claw so I'm with you 100% in that I'm hoping there's more.
Do you find them effective? I find they don't really scare anything in melee any more - be it Marines or tanks.
Tyel wrote: Like the flavours (although I think 4++ will be hard to beat) - but the big worry here was the lack of a clear buff to Talos/Chronus.
I think a 4++ on a Talos helps a lot personally, should help me cover the ground I need much more reliably. I say that as the owner of a Corpse Thief Claw so I'm with you 100% in that I'm hoping there's more.
Do you find them effective? I find they don't really scare anything in melee any more - be it Marines or tanks.
Indeed. A Talos is going to need a lot more than a slightly better invulnerable save to be in any way worthwhile.
Tyel wrote: Like the flavours (although I think 4++ will be hard to beat) - but the big worry here was the lack of a clear buff to Talos/Chronus.
I think a 4++ on a Talos helps a lot personally, should help me cover the ground I need much more reliably. I say that as the owner of a Corpse Thief Claw so I'm with you 100% in that I'm hoping there's more.
Do you find them effective? I find they don't really scare anything in melee any more - be it Marines or tanks.
No one knows.... we havent seen the codex datasheet for them yet.
42" ranged dark lances on mobile platforms seems good to me.
Some djukes during deployment. Land all your mobile lances in the same place. Move within range and start disect the opponents long ranged weapons. Just like the dark eldar intended.
Fafnir wrote: The negative leadership penalties are cool, and sound like they'd be fun to build around, but I doubt it'll be efficient enough to justify the investment, especially when everyone and their dog is immune to leadership anyway. In a fun list, that would likely be my go-to for a coven, but the 4++ just seems way too good to pass up.
Very few units are actually immune to LD. Most just have LD high enough to make it pretty irrelevant in small squads.
But not when you can pretty trivially stack up -5 to -7LD on a unit.
This trait is going to be the gold standard on allied detachments tacked onto Eldar Soup lists. Take a FW Reaper to use the sniper strat. A couple of Raiders full of goodness to create -3LD bombs. Then add in the rest of the list with Farseers, Hemlocks, and other LD busting units and you've got a pretty killer list.
It's doctrines and WL traits. I play necrons and iron warriors, both have auto pass WL traits. Dark angels and Iyandin will lose 1 dude. Tau auto pass on a 6... IDK then there is burning 2 cp to ignore all you hard work lol.
I do think a farseer using mindwar is filthy though.
Tyel wrote: Like the flavours (although I think 4++ will be hard to beat) - but the big worry here was the lack of a clear buff to Talos/Chronus.
I think a 4++ on a Talos helps a lot personally, should help me cover the ground I need much more reliably. I say that as the owner of a Corpse Thief Claw so I'm with you 100% in that I'm hoping there's more.
Agreed, that formation was pretty much always in my lists in 7th edition. I want my talos spam back
I know. And that's one of the reasons why it's been awful every edition.
And given its similarity to Monofilament weapons, which were originally flamer weapons, and continue to be surprise that the Shredder isn't a flamer weapon.
That simple change would instantly make them viable.
Tyel wrote: Like the flavours (although I think 4++ will be hard to beat) - but the big worry here was the lack of a clear buff to Talos/Chronus.
I think a 4++ on a Talos helps a lot personally, should help me cover the ground I need much more reliably. I say that as the owner of a Corpse Thief Claw so I'm with you 100% in that I'm hoping there's more.
Agreed, that formation was pretty much always in my lists in 7th edition. I want my talos spam back
The Twelve will certainly help Grotesques and Talos out a little, lack of AP is one of their more significant flaws.
I honestly think the covens' obsessions are pretty good. The rest is kinda ok but nothing special. AP boost and inv. save boost are nice. To get the most of the inv. save i'd say grotesques and wracks would be the best to use. Probably best for use in numbers where you takes lots of saves. AP boost is decent on grotesques probably but ok-ish for wracks.
Nothing seems like a huge boost for talos/cronos though except maybe that shoot while you're in combat thing. I have to ask why they made auto-hits so horrible for that one command ability when you're in combat. Covens don't put out a lot of serious firepower that isn't auto-hit based. In that way maybe talos and cronos could be useful.
The up to -3 Ld stack is ok but you guys should keep in mind there are other negative LD modifiers far as i can tell. Phantasm probably does something as do some of the kabal's gear. It's a huge stack of melee units that need to be in range though.
Now I can see why people have been hinting at Reavers. 220 points (currently) for 6 Reavers with 2 Blasters and 2 Grav Talons, moving 24” and then charging first turn. 2 or 3 units with +1 Attack, +1 WS and +2 move/+1 T are going to seem incredible hard to deal with if you get 1st turn with them.
Fafnir wrote: The negative leadership penalties are cool, and sound like they'd be fun to build around, but I doubt it'll be efficient enough to justify the investment, especially when everyone and their dog is immune to leadership anyway. In a fun list, that would likely be my go-to for a coven, but the 4++ just seems way too good to pass up.
Very few units are actually immune to LD. Most just have LD high enough to make it pretty irrelevant in small squads.
But not when you can pretty trivially stack up -5 to -7LD on a unit.
This trait is going to be the gold standard on allied detachments tacked onto Eldar Soup lists. Take a FW Reaper to use the sniper strat. A couple of Raiders full of goodness to create -3LD bombs. Then add in the rest of the list with Farseers, Hemlocks, and other LD busting units and you've got a pretty killer list.
It's doctrines and WL traits. I play necrons and iron warriors, both have auto pass WL traits. Dark angels and Iyandin will lose 1 dude. Tau auto pass on a 6... IDK then there is burning 2 cp to ignore all you hard work lol.
I do think a farseer using mindwar is filthy though.
This is true, there exist some doctrines and traits to ignore. But, if it's a warlord trait, that's why Mind War is a thing, and if you're playing the LD-stack subfaction, you know that you have the character-snipe stratagem built in there. Bring your reaper along! (I'm not gonna lie, I am right now working on converting a spare Vauls Wrath Shadow Weaver onto a spare unpainted Raider to make myself a Reaper...)
As for doctrines, eh. Mind war is still likely to be your Big Money hit per turn, with the massive LD-dropping auras running around being more of a sideshow. Sure if you run up against a Lyanden wraith army and can only kill a max of one per squad that's not great..but as a bonus it does mean you're not playing against an Alaitoc eldar army, and removing one wraith isn't bad either, its one more than you'd be removing without a huge -LD bubble. Dark Angels are in a similar boat. They ignore your shenanigans, but at least you're removing one MEQ, and you also aren't playing against a more optimal trait...
Cult of the Red Grief Reavers. 26" move + rerollable charge. Tasty
Hopefully they dropped in points too.
Am I understanding this correctly that the subfaction keywords for DE (like Craftworld attributes or Chapter Tactics) are "Obsessions" and there are 9 of them?
3 Kabals, 3 Wych Cults and 3 Covens?
1) Return of something that sounds like 3rd ed drug dispenser. Neat! hopefully something like "hot-swap the drugs on any one unit within 6" at the beginning of each turn"
2) Warlord trait that (probably) gives the warlord 2-3 different drug effects. Good way to get the Crossfit Succubus who can keep up with the transports while also giving her a combat oriented drug option as well.
3) We have confirmation that at least one not in the kit wargear option is not going away (blast pistol succubus). Yay not being locked into the super crappy glaive+agonizer build. Lets hope we keep other nice stuff like blaster archons, haemies with lots of different wargear goodies, etc. I hesitate to even call what you have to do to swap their weapons "Converting" anyway - all the bits are readily available in plastic and highly compatible with the kits.
Galef wrote: Cult of the Red Grief Reavers. 26" move + rerollable charge. Tasty
Hopefully they dropped in points too.
Am I understanding this correctly that the subfaction keywords for DE (like Craftworld attributes or Chapter Tactics) are "Obsessions" and there are 9 of them?
3 Kabals, 3 Wych Cults and 3 Covens?
Galef wrote: Cult of the Red Grief Reavers. 26" move + rerollable charge. Tasty Hopefully they dropped in points too.
Am I understanding this correctly that the subfaction keywords for DE (like Craftworld attributes or Chapter Tactics) are "Obsessions" and there are 9 of them? 3 Kabals, 3 Wych Cults and 3 Covens?
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That is how I am reading it as well.
Neat. I am glad they didn't just give a blanket attribute that applies to all units (or only specific ones like Infantry only). This was the right call for DE. Combine with the 3 Patrols giving 4CPs and you can mix and match Kabals, Cults and Covens nicely if you want. Still holding my breath for better HQ options. If at least 1 HQ gets jetbike option (doubtfully), I might start DE again. I haven't played pure DE since the Archon misplaced his Reaver and haven't allied any DE in 8th at all.
the_scotsman wrote: You're right, though technically there's 10. There are 4 kabal traits.
Yeah, im still worried about Reaver, 30pts base is WAY to much for them, other bikes (Shiny spears and Skyweavers) both have -1 to hit when being shot at and a 4++, they both can charge turn 1, has better shooting and better melee for the same points.
Even with this change, Reavers should be about 18pts.
Galef wrote: Still holding my breath for better HQ options.
If at least 1 HQ gets jetbike option (doubtfully), I might start DE again. I haven't played pure DE since the Archon misplaced his Reaver and haven't allied any DE in 8th at all.
For me at least, the HQs are what is going to make or break this codex.
If they still can't get wings, skyboards or jetbikes, then I simply don't care what the rest of the book is like. Seriously.
Necrons have just been given a another flying HQ choice. Bloody Necrons now have 3 fast, flying HQ choices. If we, a supposedly fast army, are still stuck with 0 mobility options on any of our HQs, then I'm done with this army.
Amishprn86 wrote: Yeah, im still worried about Reaver, 30pts base is WAY to much for them, other bikes (Shiny spears and Skyweavers) both have -1 to hit when being shot at and a 4++, they both can charge turn 1, has better shooting and better melee for the same points.
Even with this change, Reavers should be about 18pts.
Should be remembered that Skyweavers are over 50pts each. Agree with you about the comparison to Shining Spears though, they fill a similar role for similar points but the Spears are far better at it. But they also come from a codex.
Amishprn86 wrote: Yeah, im still worried about Reaver, 30pts base is WAY to much for them, other bikes (Shiny spears and Skyweavers) both have -1 to hit when being shot at and a 4++, they both can charge turn 1, has better shooting and better melee for the same points.
Even with this change, Reavers should be about 18pts.
Should be remembered that Skyweavers are over 50pts each. Agree with you about the comparison to Shining Spears though, they fill a similar role for similar points but the Spears are far better at it. But they also come from a codex.
Only with the Melee weapon, they are 35pts base, comes with a "good" gun for 10pts, so 45pts. If Reaver bought the 5pt and 15pt gun, they are now that 1 model is 50pts for a 4+ chance of a wound and a blaster. Skyweavers must buy the range weapon, but for a 35pt model? -1 to hit and 4++ is really good.
I like the wytch spesific killed in melee mortal wounds warlord trait. In particular good when you have alle 3 warlords as she does not give up a warlord objective. 8It was good on old tomb kings and princes. It is also very five nights at freddy as her body turns into a spring trap.
With 3 sub armies, do you think anything will change poistion between fast attack, heavy etc?
Niiai wrote: I like the wytch spesific killed in melee mortal wounds warlord trait. In particular good when you have alle 3 warlords as she does not give up a warlord objective. 8It was good on old tomb kings and princes. It is also very five nights at freddy as her body turns into a spring trap.
With 3 sub armies, do you think anything will change poistion between fast attack, heavy etc?
I was under the impression that was a Relic, not a trait. Traits don't usually list "this model only" while it is very common for relics to do so.
Galef wrote: Cult of the Red Grief Reavers. 26" move + rerollable charge. Tasty
Hopefully they dropped in points too.
Am I understanding this correctly that the subfaction keywords for DE (like Craftworld attributes or Chapter Tactics) are "Obsessions" and there are 9 of them?
3 Kabals, 3 Wych Cults and 3 Covens?
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That is how I am reading it as well.
Neat. I am glad they didn't just give a blanket attribute that applies to all units (or only specific ones like Infantry only). This was the right call for DE.
Combine with the 3 Patrols giving 4CPs and you can mix and match Kabals, Cults and Covens nicely if you want. Still holding my breath for better HQ options.
If at least 1 HQ gets jetbike option (doubtfully), I might start DE again. I haven't played pure DE since the Archon misplaced his Reaver and haven't allied any DE in 8th at all.
the_scotsman wrote: You're right, though technically there's 10. There are 4 kabal traits.
Thanks, I missed that.
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Confirmed by the Facebook picture post, Reavers dropping in points... lol....
I think it will be 10-12pts decrease (that would make them equal to windriders).
Even with a turn 1 charge, and D6 blaster, i still wouldnt take them more than 20pts, even at 20pts i'll play only in fun games (Unless more of the codex changed and they get back some hitting power like in 5th codex).
Amishprn86 wrote: I think it will be 10-12pts decrease (that would make them equal to windriders).
Even with a turn 1 charge, and D6 blaster, i still wouldnt take them more than 20pts, even at 20pts i'll play only in fun games (Unless more of the codex changed and they get back some hitting power like in 5th codex).
One unit will be viable for its ability to disrupt major shooting threats on the first turn.
I just really want to know about Archons. They should be one of the most fearsome combatants in the game, and really need some serious redesign. Because right now, they're pathetic.
I remember fighting Dark Eldar armies back in the 5th edition codex. A single Archon could eat up entire units. Whenever one got off his transport to do some real work, you knew the fight was on. They were terrifying. They should be that again.
I do not remember my 5th edition arcon like that. If I remember he tok some shots with his blaster. The real deal for me was baron satonyx in a big biiiig group of zoo animals. :-)
Neuture their offense and mobilaty with ranged weapons. Move in to mock them up.
Niiai wrote: I do not remember my 5th edition arcon like that. If I remember he tok some shots with his blaster. The real deal for me was baron satonyx in a big biiiig group of zoo animals. :-)
Neuture their offense and mobilaty with ranged weapons. Move in to mock them up.
Why did you have to mention the Baron.... he was my favorite
The big drawback I see with the Strength wych trait is that it provides less to Reavers (Fixed Strength on Bladevanes) and vehicles (no morale and again Bladevanes, though hilariously I think it might make Shock Prows stronger?) while the advance+charge and +A trait do provide benefits to those units.
Morale does benefit Reavers in theory though. You might save one out of a big unit.
That and Strife does get Lelith, which may or may not be useful.
Niiai wrote: I do not remember my 5th edition arcon like that. If I remember he tok some shots with his blaster. The real deal for me was baron satonyx in a big biiiig group of zoo animals. :-)
Neuture their offense and mobilaty with ranged weapons. Move in to mock them up.
Huskblades man. Huskblades and an unwitting line up of Paladins.
A good huskblade would be welcome. But the current 8th edition does not favour elites at all. I doubt you will find many juicy targets to use it on. It is singel wound models or goiant monsters/tanks. So to say no medium targets out there.
Nids just took what 7th? (need to double check) with mostly warriors, and most nids also play lots of Hive Guards. BA players take Sguard too, they are elites.
I (as you know Amish as you see me in the forum) run 18 nid warriors with a prime. Besides them palladins are indeed run as a star unit in the GK coeex, but since GK are nowehere to be found, finding palladins will be rare. The rules do not favour 2 wound models (plasma weapons being the lead cause IMHO) but 3 wound models seems to be in a sweet spot.
Obliterators gets played, but they are hard to charge. A silver lining if we get a good huskblade, or a gold lining if you prefer, are custodians. Some 4+ to wound instant kill (does not work on monsters) AP3 would be a good huskblade.
However, the poor huskblade would be left with out a target.
What I would like as an artefact would be a character 'darkness cloak' or something. Gives similar movement to a helion, and perhaps -1 to hit with ranged weapons one unit within 3" of the user.
Yeah, but 5hh edition was a spleading meadow of tanks parked in the deployment zone. Most armies did not have acces to assault grenades and this hit last in CC.
When the DE codex droped it was the best of times to be a Dark Eldar. The new pristine models was icing on the cake, but the rules where so good for us. And lo, plasma grenades and huskplades off open toped transports was good.
I am hoping the arcon has a place in 8th edition, but I doubt the edition will benefit him in melee. I hope he gets to be a true bastion of evil as he should be.
So for hellions, trying to decide which would be better, Red Grief or Cursed Blade.
On one hand, advancing and charging will be very nice for them. But on the other, boosting that Str before combat drugs and also allowing them to lose only 1 model to LD may help quite a bit. Especially if you are running a squad of 20, as I am.
I know this is some pretty blatant wishlisting that has no chance of properly being fulfilled, but Raiders should be able to deploy their passengers into combat after charging. It would be unique, thematic, and would give them some pretty nice utility.
I am not so sure. Some battle reports I have seen by good DE players have seen raiders dropping of warrioors in ruins etc. From there they keep blasting away. The reported re-rolling 1's auro could be good for that type of play. Hopefully the raiders can hold 11 models, or 10 models and one character.¨
But the cassual player in me just want to fill raiders with warriors with splinter racks and just desimate the opponent from left to right.
I just like the idea of ramming an enemy with the shock prow, and then while they're still shocked and disoriented, an Archon and Incubi bodyguard descend upon them. Or Wyches. Or Wracks.
It would make for a semi-potent and flavourful delivery system and GW wouldn't even have to make rules for models that don't exist.
Fafnir wrote: I know this is some pretty blatant wishlisting that has no chance of properly being fulfilled, but Raiders should be able to deploy their passengers into combat after charging. It would be unique, thematic, and would give them some pretty nice utility.
That would be awsome. Either as a stratagem, or like a 'raiding hooks' upgrade.
Does the splinter raks have models in the raider kit?
Niiai wrote: I am not so sure. Some battle reports I have seen by good DE players have seen raiders dropping of warrioors in ruins etc. From there they keep blasting away. The reported re-rolling 1's auro could be good for that type of play. Hopefully the raiders can hold 11 models, or 10 models and one character.¨
But the cassual player in me just want to fill raiders with warriors with splinter racks and just desimate the opponent from left to right.
That tactics useless for Wyches, Wracks and Incubi though. Being able to get out after the vehicle moves would be nice though.
That would in fact be a divine rule. I doubt we get it though. But it would be a great help for all open toped transport armies. Orks, GSC, Drukhari, Harlequins.
It is however pure speculation until the codex drops. But if they do implemenet something like this, and it being the first open toped transport army, it could set a good precedence.
So, using Wyches to deal with cheap hordes, and Wracks to go bother some Marines and tougher opponents ? I sure hope this new codex doesn't make Kabalite Warriors redundant, they're among my favourite units.
I saw the question earlier, and yes there is a splinter rifle rack that can be added to the Raider model.
The general strategy of dark eldars in 5th edition and for some point forward was always to try to take out theyr long ranged weapons ASAP. Then if you survive (check) you can starts softening up the enemy into chuck sieced piza slices. That is the moment you sent in the melee to kill the slices. The way poisen weapons works means you have a hard time outshooting a horde.
Melee can also be used to run into superior ranged units and tie them up in combat.
I think kabal of the black heart can be pretty decent even for a transport heavy list, since your transports gains a 6+ fnp, and you also gain more command points with the warlord trait, since you will probably be deepstriking alot of transports.
And it seems to be like the role of the haemonculus part of your army will be to act as screen and backfield objective holders.
I am excited about the upgrade to wyches but still a little worried, they just wont be doing much if they don't get access to good weapons. One power sword and two hydragauntlets does does not sound like enough damage and lack of viable weapons means squads of >10 are not worth taking. But with drugs and obsessions it might work out.
Hopefully, today's preview will be about HQs and a couple units that got improved. The facebook posts once did talk about Archon's weapon choice.
The best case scenario would be a picture of a converted HQ on reaver or skyboard, but that's mostly over-the-top wishlisting. Especially since it's something people have been wanting for ages, and the leaked information doesn't say anything about it.
I could go with a +1 to transport capacities on Raiders and Venoms. In any case, the HQs need a way to get around.
lambsandlions wrote: I am excited about the upgrade to wyches but still a little worried, they just wont be doing much if they don't get access to good weapons. One power sword and two hydragauntlets does does not sound like enough damage and lack of viable weapons means squads of >10 are not worth taking. But with drugs and obsessions it might work out.
I don't know. 3 S4 or 4 S3 attacks for 8 points is a big step up on 2 S3 attacks for 9 points (before drugs/pfp/synergy etc). Its a 100% damage increase vs MEQ and a points drop. Its not quite genestealers - but its getting very close. Its far more than I imagined.
Or go advance and charge, do slightly less damage, but can threaten first turn charges.
I think today's post will probably be about the free factions. Would at least fit the current format of having a "faction a day".
I am actually wondering if they'll increase the venom transport slots to 6 since they already have a similar chassis for the Harlequins. Would be ace if they did the same with the Raiders.
This would put DE back in order, especially since they need more HQs to benefit from the Tripatrol.
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Haemie IMO is the only one that should not get a mobility boost, and doesn't need one. He actually has one good combo to fit into a raider (him+3grots) and otherwise he wants to be in the open as his army mostly moves at shambling speed.
We do need skyboard succubi and reaver/wing archons.
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Aaranis wrote: So, using Wyches to deal with cheap hordes, and Wracks to go bother some Marines and tougher opponents ? I sure hope this new codex doesn't make Kabalite Warriors redundant, they're among my favourite units.
I saw the question earlier, and yes there is a splinter rifle rack that can be added to the Raider model.
I think given Flayed Skull bonus and the reroll to wound one, plus new splinter racks, warriors are going to be pretty danged deadly.
Aaranis wrote: So, using Wyches to deal with cheap hordes, and Wracks to go bother some Marines and tougher opponents ? I sure hope this new codex doesn't make Kabalite Warriors redundant, they're among my favourite units.
I saw the question earlier, and yes there is a splinter rifle rack that can be added to the Raider model.
I think given Flayed Skull bonus and the reroll to wound one, plus new splinter racks, warriors are going to be pretty danged deadly.
Oh yes, I'd like a really fast strike force, Kabalites in Raiders with the reroll and ignore cover are going to be awesome ! Just needs to make sure to either have first turn or screaming jet them to be sure they'll reach their target before getting slaughtered by heavy bolter fire.
I made a test for my colour scheme, I thought about painting them somewhat like hornets and I'm pretty happy with the result, thoughts ? It needs basing of course. And how should I name them ? The Horny Hornets ?
But yes, the main core of my force will be kabalite warriors in raiders,
I am wondering how best to fit in the wracks, grotesques and talos though. I'm thinking about just starting the grotesques on foot with the haemy and the talos
Eldarsif wrote: I think today's post will probably be about the free factions. Would at least fit the current format of having a "faction a day".
I am actually wondering if they'll increase the venom transport slots to 6 since they already have a similar chassis for the Harlequins. Would be ace if they did the same with the Raiders.
I doubt there will be any "free factions" DE already have 10 obsessions. That's more that any other Codex so far.
But if you mean that it won't be faction related and just share some tidbits for specific units, I could see that
Fingers crossed, it introduces a new mobile HQ model. Vect on Dias maybe?
This would put DE back in order, especially since they need more HQs to benefit from the Tripatrol.
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Haemie IMO is the only one that should not get a mobility boost, and doesn't need one. He actually has one good combo to fit into a raider (him+3grots) and otherwise he wants to be in the open as his army mostly moves at shambling speed.
We do need skyboard succubi and reaver/wing archons.
I agree from a tactics standpoint, however Haemis are always altering themselves, so I could see a winged one. They are the ones that give the Scourges wings afterall.
But, yes, at the VERY least we need a Reaver HQ. It would be very easy to make a dual kit Reaver HQ that can be either Archon or Succubus with simple head and arm swaps.
Thanks ! I came up with it after a loooong research for a colour scheme that would fit my tastes, I found loads of good ideas but none that completely pleased me. Once I was thinking about something original and I made the link between hornets and Dark Eldars, seeing as they are both predators that bring nothing good to the ecosystem, that kills for pleasure and have both a very dolorous sting. Then I pictured Raiders painted like hornets and I was conquered. Still wondering how to the the actual paint on the Raider though, don't want it looking over-the-top neither.
I think Kabalites will be best in Raiders, shooting as long as they can and dropping on objectives if needed, Wyches riding in Venoms to go tie units in CC, and Covens on foot for support where needed, and holding backfield objectives.
Aaranis wrote: Thanks ! I came up with it after a loooong research for a colour scheme that would fit my tastes, I found loads of good ideas but none that completely pleased me. Once I was thinking about something original and I made the link between hornets and Dark Eldars, seeing as they are both predators that bring nothing good to the ecosystem, that kills for pleasure and have both a very dolorous sting. Then I pictured Raiders painted like hornets and I was conquered. Still wondering how to the the actual paint on the Raider though, don't want it looking over-the-top neither.
I think Kabalites will be best in Raiders, shooting as long as they can and dropping on objectives if needed, Wyches riding in Venoms to go tie units in CC, and Covens on foot for support where needed, and holding backfield objectives.
I can see Wracks being used to hold backfield objectives but Grotesques and Talos need to be played aggressively or you're wasting a significant chunk of your army.
I doubt there will be any "free factions" DE already have 10 obsessions.
When I talk about "free factions" I am talking about mercenaries who are not bound to any faction. Models that can be used in any detachment without foregoing detachment bonuses. As they say in today's article: "As free agents of Commorragh, Incubi are free to fight with who they choose". So free agents is the correct nomenclature apparently.
Scourges, Incubi, Mandrakes, would all be considered free agents as they are not bound to any larger faction.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Today is stratagems
Crucible of malediction is pretty good, especially at 2CP. The others are okay I guess.
A bit sad that they didn't show any way to increase the HQs' mobility. At this point I think it's very unlikely (especially since people who had the codex in hands didn't say anything about it).
Overall it looks like a great codex, with lots of flavor. We'll have to see the individual point costs for competitiveness, but for casual play it's full of fun ways to play.
Imateria wrote: I can see Wracks being used to hold backfield objectives but Grotesques and Talos need to be played aggressively or you're wasting a significant chunk of your army.
Yes of course, I meant Wracks, the bigger guys need to go wreck some havoc on the frontlines !
Wow, Agents of Vect is HUGE ! With this you can prevent so much stuff ! You can prevent Aeldari from redeploying (I believe they deploy knowing they can redeploy them with the Phantasm stratagem), an Avatar from respawning, Dark Angels from using 3D plasma, interceptions at 12" from stratagems, prevent Sydonian Dragoons from triggering their Taser Lances on 4, 5 and 6s... So many possibilities to prevent your opponent to do the critical stratagem he needs at the right time, this could cripple alpha strikes possibly. Kabal of the Black Heart have of lot of good stuff, it'll be nice to have tactical game changers like this stratagem, and the Warlord Trait for refunding CPs.
fresus wrote: Crucible of malediction is pretty good, especially at 2CP. The others are okay I guess.
A bit sad that they didn't show any way to increase the HQs' mobility. At this point I think it's very unlikely (especially since people who had the codex in hands didn't say anything about it).
Overall it looks like a great codex, with lots of flavor. We'll have to see the individual point costs for competitiveness, but for casual play it's full of fun ways to play.
Crucible is by far the worst of the stratagems they've shown off. It's gone from a mediocre once per game ability to a mediocre once per game ability that costs 2CP. If anything it's reduced the armies anti-psyker ability.
I think in general we've seen a lot of good stuff this week but 2/3rds of the units in the army needed stat changes and points reductions to be remotely usable and they've haven't shown us much of that, so the overall quality of the codex remains to be seen.
Lawrence from Tabletop Tactics is aiming to get a batrep with the new codex out tonight at midnight UK time and has hinted on Facebook that he made lots of use of Reavers, I think this will give us a much better idea of where the codex stands than the previews have.
Errrr.... what? so Crucible is not a piece of wargear anymore but a 2CP stratagem... once per battle?.... WHAT?! I'd like to say "hey this must mean Haemonculi... and my extension HQs maybe? are much better so they had to knock that 'powerfull' extra bit off" but the leak / preview touts it "5 of our favorite stratagems" erm.... what?! Like if it was a <Coven> unit maybe but stratagem specifically says Haemonculus... unless you're going to tell me "Twisted beyond reason - The haemonculus is such a grotesque and twisted creature to be near soulless disturbing nearby psyckers ability to focus. Can deny once per phase" ... NO dammit... wtf?!
I meeeeeean, yeah ok, your getting CP from patrol detachment , you could run like 9 Haemos and 9 Wracks and yes that's.... kinda gona ruin GK's day , maybe some other armies just form sheer volume of attacks (and Tide of 'traitors') but..... REALY?!
I like Crucible as a strategem. Instead of having to take it as wargear (which it used to be) before you know if you need it or not, you are free to use it in games you need to, and not otherwise. It's going to be worth the 2CP in the right situation.
Fenris-77 wrote: I like Crucible as a strategem. Instead of having to take it as wargear (which it used to be) before you know if you need it or not, you are free to use it in games you need to, and not otherwise. It's going to be worth the 2CP in the right situation.
fresus wrote: Crucible of malediction is pretty good, especially at 2CP. The others are okay I guess.
A bit sad that they didn't show any way to increase the HQs' mobility. At this point I think it's very unlikely (especially since people who had the codex in hands didn't say anything about it).
Overall it looks like a great codex, with lots of flavor. We'll have to see the individual point costs for competitiveness, but for casual play it's full of fun ways to play.
No CoM is currently free and almost worthless, i have used it WELL over 20x and it NEVER has been worth a point value, let alone 2CP. And that is me having 2 Haemonculus using it in most of my games.
Soul-trap is good b.c now i dont need to take the wargear for the 5-10pts (or w/e it is, i never took it b.c its not worth it), but having the ability to gain the Soul Trap on any of my Archons for CP is much better than spending points on 2-4 of them
Drazhar is an improvement for sure, but if he is still 140pts its still not worth it, i can just take 2 units of Incubi for same cost and still have double the attacks, but if you wanted a "character" just take 3 Archons, or 2 Succubi, more wounds, more attacks, more buffs.
Agents of Vect is a must, but at the same time a tax, we are force to take a tax to get something good, when we already are forced to take lots of HQ's/Troops to gain CP, IMO if you are playing 6 Patrols you will take this, but if you are playing more Heavy/Fast/Elite slot armies you wont be taking this.
Over all, CoM is completely worthless now and some of the others have potential, but without seeing points its hard to tell.
Fenris-77 wrote: I like Crucible as a strategem. Instead of having to take it as wargear (which it used to be) before you know if you need it or not, you are free to use it in games you need to, and not otherwise. It's going to be worth the 2CP in the right situation.
But it's.... free?
It's not free Just because you don't have to option not to take it, doesn't make it free. Do you think iron halos are free on captains too?
Fenris-77 wrote: I like Crucible as a strategem. Instead of having to take it as wargear (which it used to be) before you know if you need it or not, you are free to use it in games you need to, and not otherwise. It's going to be worth the 2CP in the right situation.
But it's.... free?
It's not free Just because you don't have to option not to take it, doesn't make it free. Do you think iron halos are free on captains too?
Have you actually used it? as someone that has many times,............. its free, its never done more than 4 wounds (and that was only b.c there was 7 psychers,3/7 rolled 4+, 1 did 2 MW 2 did 1 MW each), after well over 20 uses, its not worth any points.
If GW honestly thinks its worth points, then they are clueless.
Edit: Lets say we should give it a points value, IMO 5 is perfect, GW might think its worth 10pts. Is 10pts to you worth 2cp and a 1 time use regardless of the amount of Haemonculus you have? For a niche item that only works on a couple armies and only a 50/50 chance?
If CoM goes to a strat and the haemonculus gets something better to replace it (A different ability, new wargear options, etc) then I'm fine with this.
In my eyes, from what we've seen the army is about 60-75% of the way to fully functional. Both big things that are still up in the air are related to HQs:
1) Is there any compelling reason to want multiples of any given HQ type? As they stand, our HQs are pure tax Functional Wych Cult units make one Succubus usable, especially at a reduced price, as a buff machine.the WD-confirmed reroll 1s to hit aura allows us to take one naked archon just as a gunline booster (For Ravagers and the like). Index Haemie you can make decent use of one. But we must have a reason to want multiples if we ever want to consider ourselves outside of our little bubble of 3 patrols with 1 Wych 1 Kabal 1 Haemie.
2) HQs need a mobility solution. Bikes/wings whatever are looking increasingly unlikely, so I am hoping for 1 additional capacity in each transport. I'd live with that. The current situation is just bizarre and sad.
Amishprn86 wrote: Soul-trap is good b.c now i dont need to take the wargear for the 5-10pts (or w/e it is, i never took it b.c its not worth it), but having the ability to gain the Soul Trap on any of my Archons for CP is much better than spending points on 2-4 of them
I disagree - I'd far rather spend a few points to buy Soul Trap on the relevant Archons in my army, than have to pay valuable CPevery time I want to use it. Especially given how pathetic the effect is.
Also, I don't understand why this is even a Stratagem. Does every Archon carry a Soul Trap but just completely forget to use it unless prompted? Are our Archons suffering from Alzheimer's or something?
Fenris-77 wrote: I like Crucible as a strategem. Instead of having to take it as wargear (which it used to be) before you know if you need it or not, you are free to use it in games you need to, and not otherwise. It's going to be worth the 2CP in the right situation.
But it's.... free?
It's not free Just because you don't have to option not to take it, doesn't make it free. Do you think iron halos are free on captains too?
Have you actually used it? as someone that has many times,............. its free, its never done more than 4 wounds (and that was only b.c there was 7 psychers,3/7 rolled 4+, 1 did 2 MW 2 did 1 MW each), after well over 20 uses, its not worth any points.
If GW honestly thinks its worth points, then they are clueless.
Edit: Lets say we should give it a points value, IMO 5 is perfect, GW might think its worth 10pts. Is 10pts to you worth 2cp and a 1 time use regardless of the amount of Haemonculus you have? For a niche item that only works on a couple armies and only a 50/50 chance?
Yea, I have also used shredders several times, they do nothing as well. Are they therefore free? Nope.
the_scotsman wrote: If CoM goes to a strat and the haemonculus gets something better to replace it (A different ability, new wargear options, etc) then I'm fine with this.
It would be nice if they could heal themselves and/or nearby Coven units.
In my eyes, from what we've seen the army is about 60-75% of the way to fully functional. Both big things that are still up in the air are related to HQs:
1) Is there any compelling reason to want multiples of any given HQ type? As they stand, our HQs are pure tax Functional Wych Cult units make one Succubus usable, especially at a reduced price, as a buff machine.the WD-confirmed reroll 1s to hit aura allows us to take one naked archon just as a gunline booster (For Ravagers and the like). Index Haemie you can make decent use of one. But we must have a reason to want multiples if we ever want to consider ourselves outside of our little bubble of 3 patrols with 1 Wych 1 Kabal 1 Haemie.
2) HQs need a mobility solution. Bikes/wings whatever are looking increasingly unlikely, so I am hoping for 1 additional capacity in each transport. I'd live with that. The current situation is just bizarre and sad.
Agreed entirely on #2.
As for #1, if they've not been given any mobility options, then I think even the first HQ will be dead weight - let alone additional ones. With mobility, you could have Archons buffing different components of your army . . . and wondering why they can't buff units standing on the transports in full view. I guess it will come down to how much of the anti-synergy in our army has been removed (if any). I'm guessing none.
Well, today's entry is worrisome. Strict and heavy nerf to the Haemonculus toolkit, and then the Archon's soul trap, which should just be innate at this point, costing a CP and being pretty bad. These guys better be getting some serious buffs, because these stratagems do nothing for their huge problems.
Amishprn86 wrote: Soul-trap is good b.c now i dont need to take the wargear for the 5-10pts (or w/e it is, i never took it b.c its not worth it), but having the ability to gain the Soul Trap on any of my Archons for CP is much better than spending points on 2-4 of them
I disagree - I'd far rather spend a few points to buy Soul Trap on the relevant Archons in my army, than have to pay valuable CPevery time I want to use it. Especially given how pathetic the effect is.
Also, I don't understand why this is even a Stratagem. Does every Archon carry a Soul Trap but just completely forget to use it unless prompted? Are our Archons suffering from Alzheimer's or something?
But how often does it come into an effect? Ive never had an Archon kill a character lol.
Fenris-77 wrote: I like Crucible as a strategem. Instead of having to take it as wargear (which it used to be) before you know if you need it or not, you are free to use it in games you need to, and not otherwise. It's going to be worth the 2CP in the right situation.
But it's.... free?
It's not free Just because you don't have to option not to take it, doesn't make it free. Do you think iron halos are free on captains too?
Have you actually used it? as someone that has many times,............. its free, its never done more than 4 wounds (and that was only b.c there was 7 psychers,3/7 rolled 4+, 1 did 2 MW 2 did 1 MW each), after well over 20 uses, its not worth any points.
If GW honestly thinks its worth points, then they are clueless.
Edit: Lets say we should give it a points value, IMO 5 is perfect, GW might think its worth 10pts. Is 10pts to you worth 2cp and a 1 time use regardless of the amount of Haemonculus you have? For a niche item that only works on a couple armies and only a 50/50 chance?
Yea, I have also used shredders several times, they do nothing as well. Are they therefore free? Nope.
No but i think shredders needs to be 2pts, so we agree that shredders are trash, and if you read what i said, it you had a points value on it, make it 5pts for CoM. Also, shredders could be strong against Infantry, S6 re-roll wounds isnt bad, they just need to be cheaper
Amishprn86 wrote: But how often does it come into an effect? Ive never had an Archon kill a character lol.
I can't say it was common, but I did get an Archon to S6+ a few times in 7th with the Soul Trap and a Huskblade.
It was also just a nice way to differentiate HQs a bit. As it stands, Archons don't have a single piece of wargear that isn't a weapon, which is pretty depressing when you consider what their arsenal was like in 5th.
At the very least, I'd rather have the option to pay for it in the army-building step and risk not using it, rather than never ever using it because its effect is pitiful and every use costs valuable CP.
the_scotsman wrote: If CoM goes to a strat and the haemonculus gets something better to replace it (A different ability, new wargear options, etc) then I'm fine with this.
It would be nice if they could heal themselves and/or nearby Coven units.
In my eyes, from what we've seen the army is about 60-75% of the way to fully functional. Both big things that are still up in the air are related to HQs:
1) Is there any compelling reason to want multiples of any given HQ type? As they stand, our HQs are pure tax Functional Wych Cult units make one Succubus usable, especially at a reduced price, as a buff machine.the WD-confirmed reroll 1s to hit aura allows us to take one naked archon just as a gunline booster (For Ravagers and the like). Index Haemie you can make decent use of one. But we must have a reason to want multiples if we ever want to consider ourselves outside of our little bubble of 3 patrols with 1 Wych 1 Kabal 1 Haemie.
2) HQs need a mobility solution. Bikes/wings whatever are looking increasingly unlikely, so I am hoping for 1 additional capacity in each transport. I'd live with that. The current situation is just bizarre and sad.
Agreed entirely on #2.
As for #1, if they've not been given any mobility options, then I think even the first HQ will be dead weight - let alone additional ones. With mobility, you could have Archons buffing different components of your army . . . and wondering why they can't buff units standing on the transports in full view. I guess it will come down to how much of the anti-synergy in our army has been removed (if any). I'm guessing none.
The Archon's buff is quasi-redundant on transported units anyway for the most part thanks to Flayed Skull bonus. The only units that really want to have a new Archon units are Ravagers (and they really want it) and a foot archon can reasonably keep up with the small amount of movement that a couple Ravagers are going to want to make to get targets. So if I got no transports, I can justify 1 archon just to babysit my ravagers at whatever his (I assume lower) point cost will be.
The succubus doesn't really need to buff units from a transport because when you want to use her buff, she's getting out of the transport to engage. But her buff is of limited usefulness really only good for that first initial engagement, and then past that point you're either mopping up or your melee units are dead. So I can justify 1 succubus (especially as she gets a warlord trait)
Haemonculus has plenty of units that work (or have to work) just trundling down the field, and he can keep up with them on foot. but again, you're probably only going to need one of his aura.
if GW just goes for lazy buffs on the HQs like point costs, but keeps them relatively useless and doesn't correct the REASON why they're very hard/awkward to use...then I think we're probably going to be locked into the 3-patrol box and we'll have a fairly monobuild list structure. But if they get just a tiny bit more creative and our HQs inch over the line to average, the unit buffs we've seen and had teased IMO are enough to make DE a solidly midtier, balanced faction outside of the ever present yoke of Ynnari.
Though I've already noticed a couple of truly stupid Ynnari/soup combos. Overwatch ignoring wyches sliding into combat and casually making 303 attacks in a single player turn thanks to GW stratagem spaghetti code being my favorite one so far, but also LD-nuking goofiness combining all the aeldari factions with the new Haemonculus coven subfaction.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ah well, I guess all there is to do is wait 2-3 days for some wonderfully less scrupulous person to get their hand on a prerelease codex and do a full or partial info dump.
Fenris-77 wrote: I like Crucible as a strategem. Instead of having to take it as wargear (which it used to be) before you know if you need it or not, you are free to use it in games you need to, and not otherwise. It's going to be worth the 2CP in the right situation.
But it's.... free?
It's not free Just because you don't have to option not to take it, doesn't make it free. Do you think iron halos are free on captains too?
Actually it literally was free in the index, you always had the option of not taking it and it never cost you any points when you did. Did that ever make any sense? No, but they never made an attempt to errata it.
I always assumed it was in the base cost though. It's like weapons that cost zero points for certain models like the whirlwind missile launcher.
Either way, we can all agree that the biggest questions are still unanswered. HQ's (a few others as well) and most importantly weapon profiles and costs as well as availability will make or break this codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Luckily, reviews should be up tonight since this thing goes on preorder tonight at midnight.
Either way, we can all agree that the biggest questions are still unanswered. HQ's (a few others as well) and most importantly weapon profiles and costs as well as availability will make or break this codex.
I think it's fair to say that most of what we've seen so far has been icing. We've yet to see the actual cake.
Either way, we can all agree that the biggest questions are still unanswered. HQ's (a few others as well) and most importantly weapon profiles and costs as well as availability will make or break this codex.
I think it's fair to say that most of what we've seen so far has been icing. We've yet to see the actual cake.
The two concrete things we got were Wych improvements (significant as they were potentially the lock behind which 1/3 of our traits, relics, etc would have sat, if they hadn't seen significant improvement) and Blaster damage doubling, improving a large range of units. Extra bonus point for knowing I can put some more blasters in a Kabalite squad.
Either way, we can all agree that the biggest questions are still unanswered. HQ's (a few others as well) and most importantly weapon profiles and costs as well as availability will make or break this codex.
I think it's fair to say that most of what we've seen so far has been icing. We've yet to see the actual cake.
The two concrete things we got were Wych improvements (significant as they were potentially the lock behind which 1/3 of our traits, relics, etc would have sat, if they hadn't seen significant improvement) and Blaster damage doubling, improving a large range of units. Extra bonus point for knowing I can put some more blasters in a Kabalite squad.
Otherwise...yep, let's see some reviews.
I'll be interested to see the TTT battle report tonight with them, hopefully we'll get some more solid info.
ThePie wrote: Do you people think its better to run wyches in 5 man teams in venoms or put 10 in a raider?
Was thinking of running 2 or 3 five man teams to just tie up enemy shooty units.
Honestly, to early to tell, but depending on the stratagems, if there is a couple that highly buffs a wych unit you will want 1 large squad so it can effect the unit more. If you are using them as S4 infanty busters, 2x5 is better b.c you get the Sargent.
Scourge at least are definitely better. Everyone used them with Dark Lances in the index because of the D6 damage being vastly superior to the D3, making the -1 to hit penalty when moving/deep striking palitable, but since Blasters have the same damage without the movement penalty, are hopefully still 5pts cheaper than a DL and the Scourge themselves are getting cheaper this means that with just 1pt drop thats now 125pt squad instead of 150 for the same or even better damage output.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ThePie wrote: Do you people think its better to run wyches in 5 man teams in venoms or put 10 in a raider?
Was thinking of running 2 or 3 five man teams to just tie up enemy shooty units.
Far too early to tell, we have no idea what changes if any there are to Wych Weapons or the distribution of combat drugs. They will determine how best it is to run the squad.
ThePie wrote: Hmm alright, i have been thinking about how to efficiently deal with both horde armies and space marine armies.
Marines can be dealt with disintregator cannons, but it's massed hordes like green tide im really worrying about.
Depending on Raider costs, Splinter Racks and re-roll 1's to wound, Poison might be best, BUT also depending on Beasts and stratagems, its way to early to tell.
ThePie wrote: Hmm alright, i have been thinking about how to efficiently deal with both horde armies and space marine armies.
Marines can be dealt with disintregator cannons, but it's massed hordes like green tide im really worrying about.
Poison probably suffices vs T4 Orks, but so far Wych Cult units look like the only real answer to T3, and of those only Wyches are actually specialized for the role. Obviously they could come out with 7 point Razorwing Flocks again and then there's your go-to, but otherwise there's just not much in the index that would be well-positioned for the job even with generous price cuts.
Looks like running venoms and 5 man warrior squads is pretty good, since it combines a blaster with lots of anti infantry which is sorely needed.
And for how cheap they look, atleast 2 ravagers with disintregator cannons will make a real number out of marine targets, or perhaps its still better with some extra long range anti tank.
OR perhaps run 2 raiders with 1 disintregator cannons and 2 blaster squads inside might be better, since the blaster squads don't get a degrading to hit when the transport gets damaged
Archons with 8 attacks sounds like a really heavy investment, but might just be alright (not great, but alright) with a delivery system. Has the state of transport capacities been revealed in that preview? I can't be bothered to watch the whole thing.
Theres a video up from BoLS with most of the changes. Don't have link atm, sorry.
Some standouts for me:
Heat Lance 12 pts
Haywire Blaster d3 shots 8 pts
Disintegrator down to 15 pts
Splinter canons 10pts
Warriors, Wyches, and Wracks down by 1 pt
Reavers down to 19(!) pts
Succubus can potentially get 3 drugs
There is a relic archite glaive without the -1 hit
Relic helm that lets you deny, and if you deny causes perils to the psyker automatically.
Dazhar fights twice on charge
Archons got more expensive, huskblade got better (+1 strength) and gets reroll 1 aura.
Lelith and Urien both around 80 points each. Succubus around 50.
Urien takes half damage and gives +1 str, tough, and ld to coven units. Lost his reroll save, but kept his clonefield.
No more drugs for Lelith! Instead she can choose a stat increase to use for the phase.
Blackheart Relic gives archon reroll 1s to wound aura
1 special/5 warriors and 1 heavy/10
Shardnets now make your opponents roll a d3 vs your d6 on the No Escape rule. Love it.
Razorflails same but give d3 attacks.
Mandrakes ~2 or 3 pts cheaper
Razorwing flocks changes. 4+ws, but only 4 attacks. Some other changes to beasts - video audio cuts out for this portion.
Grotesques +1 pt, +1ap on basic melee weapon
Hellions 14ppm
Talos 75pts, 5 attakcs and gains new weapon (x2 str, -3ap d3d -1 hit)
Talos Macro Scalpels now +1str -2ap 2d but only +1 attack now.
Cronos 65pts base
Flyers a bit cheaper, but largely unchanged.
I tried to cover things that have not already been leaked or discussed already. HQs got cheaper, but no movement stuff.
Stratagems (they skimmed through these rather quick):
Shared with Eldar: Lightning Reflexes, Fire and Fade, Webway Portal, fall back and shoot, and more
33 total strategems
Reavers and Hellions can fly over enemies, Roll a d6 for each model in your squad, on a 6 (+1 for infantry) causes a mortal wound
Aethersails 1cp 8" advance for raiders and ravagers
Poison Tongue: "pick up 3 units and redeploy them" presumably means immediately after deployment.
Cursed Blade: Catachan boobytraps
Consolidate into a transport
Relics
Genereic
Djinn Blade: Huskblade +2 attacks, on a roll of a 1 after using take a mortal wound.
Helm of Spite: Deny the witch. If successful, denied psyker suffers perils automatically.
Nightmare Doll: 4+++ for Hamonculus
Animus Vitae: Terrible
Whip: Agonizer replacement with 3 additional attacks
Specific Relics
Black Heart: Archon Only reroll wound rolls of 1 aura
Obsidian Rose: 3+ -to be hit in melee
Flayed Skull: Gain 4++ after failing shadow field
Cult of Strife: Random drug every turn.
Cursed Blade: Exploding Succubus
Red Grief: Archite glaive "a little stronger" no hit penalty
Prophets of Flesh: Enemies cannot fire overwatch at bearer, select enemy unit with 6" target unit must fight last (some conditions apply, counteracts opposing rules, etc)
Dark Creed: Stinger Pistol Ap -4 ignores invulnerable saves
Coven of Twelve: Hamy Tolls replacement ap-2 d3d add 1 to wound rolls, damage against characters damage is 3.
Warlord Traits (9 generic + 1 for each obsession)
Kabal
CA trait changed: reroll ALL wound rolls. (Drazhar has this)
+1 attack on charge etc. Killing a model heals 1 wound
3" aura enemies roll 2d6 on moral and pick highest
Cult
Always fights first
Another drug!
wound roll of 6+ causes an additional mortal wound
Coven
heals d3 wounds at start of your turn
+1 to wound rolls
reroll fnp of 1 aura 6"
Black Heart: We know it. We love it. CPs Poison Tongue: Use this models ld within 12"
Flayed Skull: +1a and str on charge
Obsidian Rose: Increase non artifact damage by 1 (d6+1) blaster
Cult of Strife: Exploding 6s on hits, 3 hits (Lelith has this)
Red Grief: +1 invuln
Cursed Blade: Unmodified save of 6 bounces a MW back
Prophets of Flesh: The d3 extra CP one (Urien has this)
Dark Creed: Roll 2d6 for each enemy within 3" if exceeds enemy ld causes 1 MW Coven of Twelve: Reduce all damage by 1
I think thats most of what I heard. I probably missed stuff. The review was pretty vague, to be honest.
Without taking Obsessions into question (tho much wont change for me, for others that might), This IMO from the little math that i did (only like 15 min, i still need to do more math, but i am happy for now)) is the best load out and one i will test play 1st (I think).
6 Raiders with Discannons (80pts each 480pts) with 25 warriors 5 blasters (282pts) is 762pts.
This is [[EDIT [15]] S5 2D with AP shots, that is much more fun to me than 120 Poison shots, and the 5 Blasters are there for a buff to damage. This will also give me room for characters.
Amishprn86 wrote: Without taking Obsessions into question (tho much wont change for me, for others that might), This IMO from the little math that i did (only like 15 min, i still need to do more math, but i am happy for now)) is the best load out and one i will test play 1st (I think).
6 Raiders with Discannons (80pts each 480pts) with 25 warriors 5 blasters (282pts) is 762pts.
This is 54 S5 2D with AP shots, that is much more fun to me than 120 Poison shots, and the 5 Blasters are there for a buff to damage. This will also give me room for characters.
Aren't you thinking of Ravagers? You can only fit one Disintegrator Cannon on a Raider.
Amishprn86 wrote: Without taking Obsessions into question (tho much wont change for me, for others that might), This IMO from the little math that i did (only like 15 min, i still need to do more math, but i am happy for now)) is the best load out and one i will test play 1st (I think).
6 Raiders with Discannons (80pts each 480pts) with 25 warriors 5 blasters (282pts) is 762pts.
This is 54 S5 2D with AP shots, that is much more fun to me than 120 Poison shots, and the 5 Blasters are there for a buff to damage. This will also give me room for characters.
Aren't you thinking of Ravagers? You can only fit one Disintegrator Cannon on a Raider.
Oops, i miss math!, lol its 15, and yes im taking Ravagers, that where i miss math, i added them in my mistake, I have 1250 list with Ravagers
But my Point was, for me its reliability vs more shots.
Edit: its 75pts vs 80pts, 6/12 shots vs 3 shots but those 6/12 shots always wound on 4, 0 ap and doesnt work on vehicles, the 3 shots will wound most on 3+, can hurt vehicles 50% better and is 2 damage (the important part for me). The warriors stays the same, but against a Marine, or a IG, the Discannon is about equal.
6/12 poison shots vs MEQ: 0.67/1.33 wound 6/12 poison shots vs TEQ 1.33/2.37
So poison is clearily going to win vs TEQ, but not vs MEQ,a nd multi MEQ wounds its just leaps and bounds better, even if you onlyget 1-2 wounds through, compare to 4-5
ThePie wrote: Think best option is to run your HQs in a raider together with 5 warriors. Doesent seem like they got any additional mobility options.
I would put this as the 10th best option, with options 1 through 9 being 'don't buy the codex'.
Oi, negative nancy, since your one and... perplexingly out of proportion gripe is that HQ's didn't get bikes... here's a transport with slots that arn't a mutiple of 5
On the other hand the codex has gotten stupid buffs revers, hellions massively betters , shardnet wytches are... meta breaking, so are agents of vect.... agents of vect alone could get a 5 page article on how good and unique it is... On wings of fire, gone, miasma gone, tide of traitors, gone, forewarned, gone the deepest shadow (if your allied with eldar wich, lets be honest i don't see a GT list at this point of Aeldari not running a detachment of Black Heart) gone... DE are back in black boys!
ThePie wrote: Think best option is to run your HQs in a raider together with 5 warriors. Doesent seem like they got any additional mobility options.
I would put this as the 10th best option, with options 1 through 9 being 'don't buy the codex'.
Oi, negative nancy, since your one and... perplexingly out of proportion gripe is that HQ's didn't get bikes... here's a transport with slots that arn't a mutiple of 5
On the other hand the codex has gotten stupid buffs revers, hellions massively betters , shardnet wytches are... meta breaking, so are agents of vect.... agents of vect alone could get a 5 page article on how good and unique it is... On wings of fire, gone, miasma gone, tide of traitors, gone, forewarned, gone the deepest shadow (if your allied with eldar wich, lets be honest i don't see a GT list at this point of Aeldari not running a detachment of Black Heart) gone... DE are back in black boys!
With Obsessions and Stratagems, the Tantalus is freaking strong......
DS it, shoot kill a unit, spend CP, shoot again, spend CP give it -1 to hit. You can give it 6+++ from Blask Heart, sense it is also Coven, can make it +1 toughness.
ThePie wrote: Think best option is to run your HQs in a raider together with 5 warriors. Doesent seem like they got any additional mobility options.
I would put this as the 10th best option, with options 1 through 9 being 'don't buy the codex'.
Oi, negative nancy, since your one and... perplexingly out of proportion gripe is that HQ's didn't get bikes... here's a transport with slots that arn't a mutiple of 5
On the other hand the codex has gotten stupid buffs revers, hellions massively betters , shardnet wytches are... meta breaking, so are agents of vect.... agents of vect alone could get a 5 page article on how good and unique it is... On wings of fire, gone, miasma gone, tide of traitors, gone, forewarned, gone the deepest shadow (if your allied with eldar wich, lets be honest i don't see a GT list at this point of Aeldari not running a detachment of Black Heart) gone... DE are back in black boys!
Oh right, i didnt even think about the shardnet wyches!
Hmm, i wonder if 5 man in venoms or 10 man in raiders are better, they do need to survive overwatch.
Yeah... kind of not seeing the justified negativity here. I guess it would be nice if HQs could have movement 16 or something - but I am not convinced its necessary. Buy them a party bus if you want - or just have them run.
Anyway not sure if DE will be top-top tier - but they are certainly not weak. Its a world away from 7th edition.
My only cynicism might be that mass venoms/blasters+ravagers+jetfighters is still almost certainly going to be the optimal way forward. Maybe with a splash of some other things - but I might be wrong.
Also not... totally as hyped on the Agents of Vect as others are. 3 CP is very expensive unless you bring a lot.
But I guess if you build your list with a lot of CP, the Haemonculus+D3 CP warlord trait & gain a CP when either side uses one on a 6+ warlord trait it might be okay. If you could disrupt pre-game start stratagems it would completely change the meta. As it is interrupting a 1CP ability is going to be very expensive - and therefore very situational.
Oi, negative nancy, since your one and... perplexingly out of proportion gripe is that HQ's didn't get bikes
Yeah, right?
I mean, who cares if DEHQs are slower than those of Eldar, Harlequins, SMs, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Orks, Chaos, Chaos Daemons, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Tau...
Whatever. I'm off to start a business selling magic beans to Dark Eldar players. Because apparently they'll buy any crap you offer them, even if you've proved its crap in the past and that you haven't changed it one iota.
Not only that but when anyone points out that your magic beans aren't actually magic, they'll be the first to lynch that person and offer you fistfuls of money to prove how much they believe that those beans really are magic.
Oi, negative nancy, since your one and... perplexingly out of proportion gripe is that HQ's didn't get bikes
Yeah, right?
I mean, who cares if DEHQs are slower than those of Eldar, Harlequins, SMs, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Orks, Chaos, Chaos Daemons, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Tau...
Whatever. I'm off to start a business selling magic beans to Dark Eldar players. Because apparently they'll buy any crap you offer them, even if you've proved its crap in the past and that you haven't changed it one iota.
Not only that but when anyone points out that your magic beans aren't actually magic, they'll be the first to lynch that person and offer you fistfuls of money to prove how much they believe that those beans really are magic.
Just b.c we wont burn our army over 1 rule doesnt mean we are saps, just b.c our HQ's dont get bikes/wings doesnt mean its a crappy codex.
I mean, who cares if DEHQs are slower than those of Eldar, Harlequins, SMs, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Orks, Chaos, Chaos Daemons, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Tau...
Whatever. I'm off to start a business selling magic beans to Dark Eldar players. Because apparently they'll buy any crap you offer them, even if you've proved its crap in the past and that you haven't changed it one iota.
Not only that but when anyone points out that your magic beans aren't actually magic, they'll be the first to lynch that person and offer you fistfuls of money to prove how much they believe that those beans really are magic.
Games Workshop are figuratively slapping you in the face with a meta-busting codex that features dramatic improvements to almost every unit the Drukhari can field, and you're taking this attitude with fellow players over mobility options for characters?
Seriously dude?
Before someone quotes me saying "meta-busting? Huh?" the Agents of Vect stratagem absolutely destroys Poxwalker farm armies (who rely on you not being able to shoot the Poxwalkers and being forced to kill the other hordes that feed into the Poxwalkers) and a few other top tournament builds. Shardnet Wyches can severely mess up gun-line armies. The sheer firepower the army can output is not to be underestimated either, and that's just scratching the surface.
I am actually curious: has it been confirmed that the venom is still only Transport 5? Feels like an oversight on GW's part as it would have been so easy to boost that to 6 to mirror the Harlequin transport.
Eldarsif wrote: I am actually curious: has it been confirmed that the venom is still only Transport 5? Feels like an oversight on GW's part as it would have been so easy to boost that to 6 to mirror the Harlequin transport.
Whatever. I'm off to start a business selling magic beans to Dark Eldar players.
I hate beans so your business model is flawed.
Personally I am very intrigued by the codex and am looking forward to seeing how it will play and affect the current meta. To be fair I have been playing Drukhari without jetbiking HQ since 5th edition so I just don't really feel like it's the end of the world that I can't get some new mobile HQ. Personally I've always felt that the Archon should be riding her own pimped up Venom, but hey, to each their own.
Eldarsif wrote: I am actually curious: has it been confirmed that the venom is still only Transport 5? Feels like an oversight on GW's part as it would have been so easy to boost that to 6 to mirror the Harlequin transport.
Whatever. I'm off to start a business selling magic beans to Dark Eldar players.
I hate beans so your business model is flawed.
Personally I am very intrigued by the codex and am looking forward to seeing how it will play and affect the current meta. To be fair I have been playing Drukhari without jetbiking HQ since 5th edition so I just don't really feel like it's the end of the world that I can't get some new mobile HQ. Personally I've always felt that the Archon should be riding her own pimped up Venom, but hey, to each their own.
I like the idea of a 5man with Archon in Raiders as body guards, my DE army is based off Mad Max, so if you watch the new one you see a few guys in the Cars with the leaders, kinda like that.
Would i love a Wych/Archon on Bike or Skyboard? Heck yeah, but it is game breaking or something that i "need"... no
Automatically Appended Next Post: With the new points changes, here is a "silly" list
Outrider, x2 Haemonculus Haemonculus Venoms x2 SC: 75pts Venoms x2 SC Venoms x2 SC Venoms x2 SC Venoms x2 SC Venoms x2 SC Venoms x2 SC Venoms x1 SC: 65pts Venoms x1 SC Ravager x3 DL: 140pts Ravager x3 DL Ravager x3 DL Ravager x3 DL Dedicated transports Raider DC: 80pts Raider DC Raider DC Raider DC Raider DC Raider DC Raider DC Raider DC NOTE: Can do 4 Razorwings instead (tho 1 needs to be 2 Discannons) of the Ravagers for Charging Protection and more -1 to hit
1995pts 21 vehicles, 16 Splinter cannons, 8 Discannons, 12 DL's, DS your Ravagers as they are the main targets
Equally, you can do 2 Archons and have it all Black Hearts for 6+++
I like the idea of a 5man with Archon in Raiders as body guards, my DE army is based off Mad Max, so if you watch the new one you see a few guys in the Cars with the leaders, kinda like that.
Would i love a Wych/Archon on Bike or Skyboard? Heck yeah, but it is game breaking or something that i "need"... no
I always feel like the Vect on his Dais was the ultimate presentation of an Archon with mobility. Firepower, armor, speed, along with a cadre of nasty bodyguards. Feels like most Archons wouldn't use jetbikes except maybe for Vraesque Malidrach due to his background.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
With the new points changes, here is a "silly" list
Outrider, x2
Haemonculus
Haemonculus
Venoms x2 SC: 75pts
Venoms x2 SC Venoms x2 SC Venoms x2 SC Venoms x2 SC Venoms x2 SC Venoms x2 SC Venoms x1 SC: 65pts
Venoms x1 SC Ravager x3 DL: 140pts
Ravager x3 DL Ravager x3 DL Ravager x3 DL Dedicated transports
Raider DC: 80pts
Raider DC Raider DC Raider DC Raider DC Raider DC Raider DC Raider DC
I like the idea of a 5man with Archon in Raiders as body guards, my DE army is based off Mad Max, so if you watch the new one you see a few guys in the Cars with the leaders, kinda like that.
Would i love a Wych/Archon on Bike or Skyboard? Heck yeah, but it is game breaking or something that i "need"... no
I always feel like the Vect on his Dais was the ultimate presentation of an Archon with mobility. Firepower, armor, speed, along with a cadre of nasty bodyguards. Feels like most Archons wouldn't use jetbikes except maybe for Vraesque Malidrach due to his background.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
With the new points changes, here is a "silly" list
Outrider, x2 Haemonculus Haemonculus Venoms x2 SC: 75pts Venoms x2 SC Venoms x2 SC Venoms x2 SC Venoms x2 SC Venoms x2 SC Venoms x2 SC Venoms x1 SC: 65pts Venoms x1 SC Ravager x3 DL: 140pts Ravager x3 DL Ravager x3 DL Ravager x3 DL Dedicated transports Raider DC: 80pts Raider DC Raider DC Raider DC Raider DC Raider DC Raider DC Raider DC
Don't you need units to unlock the transports?
I miss typed it, i was thinking Venoms are Fast still (from old 5/7th codex's) but you can still do it, just will take 2 less Venoms, 1 raider ( and take 7 troops (that gives you 6 more dedicated slots, the 2 HQ's, 7 troops, 4 Heavy/Flyers,) for 13 Dedicated.
So its only 17 vehicles, but now you have 35 Kabals running around
I like that, we can field tons of models with the new points prices. Lots of units are now way cheaper, even some that were already good or decent at least.
IMHO the most interesting thing is the unit of scourges with haywire blasters, only 100 pts in total, for 4xD3 shots that deal mortal wounds on 4s. They were absolute garbage in the index.
Quite happy about dis cannons, they really needed to be cheaper than lances without nerfing the lances I'm looking forward to try reavers and talos, which I haven't played so much in this edition but they're both my favorite drukhari models and I used to bring tons of them in 7th edtion, tipycally 18 bikes and 5-6 talos. Also love the AP-2 on grotesques.
I'm mostly disappointed about the abundance of kabalite with blasters that I can't field anymore, cutting the trueborn could have been ok if kabalites were allowed to take 2 special weapons every 5 guys, and not ten.
Oi, negative nancy, since your one and... perplexingly out of proportion gripe is that HQ's didn't get bikes
Yeah, right?
I mean, who cares if DEHQs are slower than those of Eldar, Harlequins, SMs, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Orks, Chaos, Chaos Daemons, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Tau...
Whatever. I'm off to start a business selling magic beans to Dark Eldar players. Because apparently they'll buy any crap you offer them, even if you've proved its crap in the past and that you haven't changed it one iota.
Not only that but when anyone points out that your magic beans aren't actually magic, they'll be the first to lynch that person and offer you fistfuls of money to prove how much they believe that those beans really are magic.
What a way to give us a tantrum and in the process insult every other person that likes the Codex calling them stupid. Because of course people is lynching you just because they disagree, and if every one disagrees with me, the only reasonable option is that I'm in the absolute right and they just don't know better.
They arent even faster, DE can have 10-12" movement on Wych HQ's while on foot.
We also can DS most units than anyone making us have better placements and safety.
Just b.c a Captain can buy a jetback for 12".. ok so what? Our HQ's never been about solo fast moving heavy hitters, but jump out of vehicles and realspace to hit when the time is right.
Eldarsif wrote: I think the only thing I can somewhat complain about is that I've already painted 5 Venoms and now it feels like I need to paint a few more...
Also a bit afraid of going full horde on Drukhari.
I wouldnt just yet, unless you already have the models.
Eldarsif wrote: I think the only thing I can somewhat complain about is that I've already painted 5 Venoms and now it feels like I need to paint a few more...
Also a bit afraid of going full horde on Drukhari.
I wouldnt just yet, unless you already have the models.
No worries, still working on Daughter's of Khaine army so I won't be rushing to buy anything. Also have 2 venoms unpainted in my pile.
Eldarsif wrote: I think the only thing I can somewhat complain about is that I've already painted 5 Venoms and now it feels like I need to paint a few more...
Also a bit afraid of going full horde on Drukhari.
I wouldnt just yet, unless you already have the models.
No worries, still working on Daughter's of Khaine army so I won't be rushing to buy anything. Also have 2 venoms unpainted in my pile.
ballzonya wrote: Looking to start getting into dark eldar. The new start collecting boxes are they worth it if I buy 2?
Yes the start collecting box is good for it's cost. But it is very bad on it's own. You need to supply it with other things. I would recomend getting a 10 man ravager as transports for them, and some kabalite warriors to go into the venom.
Vipoid has a bit of a point. Walking Archons or Succubi up the table is just not a viable option. 8" move on an assault unit is just too slow for a unit to be viable in close combat in a game that takes models off the table as quickly as 8th edition. It's part of why the Avatar of Khaine is so bad for the Craftworld counterparts (amoung other things, but this is a big one).
But there are ways around it for DEHQs. I'll be buying some Incubi to roll with my Archon. Although you could also drop him from the webway if you're feeling ballsy. The mobility options do exist, they're just not perfect.
Fafnir wrote: Vipoid has a bit of a point. Walking Archons or Succubi up the table is just not a viable option. 8" move on an assault unit is just too slow for a unit to be viable in close combat in a game that takes models off the table as quickly as 8th edition. It's part of why the Avatar of Khaine is so bad for the Craftworld counterparts (amoung other things, but this is a big one).
But there are ways around it for DEHQs. I'll be buying some Incubi to roll with my Archon. Although you could also drop him from the webway if you're feeling ballsy. The mobility options do exist, they're just not perfect.
I can sympathies with him a bit, but he's getting carried away. His argument applies to other armies as well. I play emperors children, I cannot run 10 noise marines and Lucius in a rhino, therefore I have to walk him, take 9 (and only blastmaster) or run him with a smaller dedicated squad of some type. I think it would make more sense for HQ's to have free seats in transports like they do in buildings. This would fix all armies. But expecting it to be tailored specifically to one faction when in the past it hasn't been that way is setting yourself up for disappointment.
Wow all these points changes, things look GREAT ! The bad news for me is that it's going to take me forever to have 2000 pts of them, we'll be playing 9th by the time
While I think it's sad that we don't have mobility options for HQs (or one more place in the Raider/Venom), I don't think it's the end of the world. We'll have so much stuff coming right in the face of our opponents turn 1 that I wonder how he'll target your HQs, remember not everyone plays Snipers. Well a guy in my LGS runs 6*5 Scouts but I'll just drop Raiders in their faces and shoot them while ignoring cover with my Flayed Skull Warriors. While your alpha hits, just either keep your HQ on the backfield for keeping him alive longer or securing objectives, or just make him advance for a turn and you'll be in range of something early enough, the tables aren't 8x8 as far as I know. There's ALWAYS something that will come to your zone. If you don't have first turn, just hide them at deployment (or use the stratagem to bait them and redeploy). Really, as far as I can tell it's not the end of the world. My army (AdMech don't even have transports and my Domini still have to fight for their lives in CC all the time, every game, so whatever.
Not every one of us is playing in tournaments with the same cheese lists all the time neither, in regular games with strong choices but not broken (like in my local meta) I feel this will be very fun to play my Dark Eldars, as soon as I have 1000 pts at least :/ I accept Paypal donations
I'll be running mine with my Craftworlders, so I've already got some points to work with. But man, it's definitely going to be rough to get enough spikey boys, let alone paint them to a standard I'm happy with.
I'll probably end up with two detachments, one for a kabal, one for a coven. I don't much care for Wyches. Use the extra warlord ability stratagem to take Urien Rakarth's trait for a shot at an extra 2 command points.
I'm on the fence about haywire guns. They are better then before but blasters still outperform them against anything T8 and below due to their d6 damage, while also being more versatile (can be used against elite infantry, monsters etc).
In all likelihood blasters+dark lance are still going tp be pur most competitive TAC weapons.
BlaxicanX wrote: I'm on the fence about haywire guns. They are better then before but blasters still outperform them against anything T8 and below due to their d6 damage, while also being more versatile (can be used against elite infantry, monsters etc).
In all likelihood blasters+dark lance are still going tp be pur most competitive TAC weapons.
Not disagreeing with you, but we have to remember Haywire Blasters bypasses invulnerable saves, I think that's great. I wish my Arc weaponry had this rule.
How is Drazhar anyway? I was considering taking two Archons, but an Archon and Drazhar might be better if Drazzy isn't as disappointing as his index incarnation.
Hmm, 8 incubi is 128 pts for 9 toughness 3 wounds with 3+ armor save.... But 4 Grotesques is 160 pts for 12 toughness 6 wounds with 4+ invulnerable.
While the incubi will be better at killing marines, i feel like the grotesques will be better for screening your hq's and weathering overwatch. Plus the grotesques will also be better against targets with invulerable saves for that matter.
Or perhaps you can just go cheap (points and moneywise) and just grab 8 wracks instead for pure screening.
EDIT: I realised grotesques have ap -2 now, which makes them hella alot better.
Not disagreeing with you, but we have to remember Haywire Blasters bypasses invulnerable saves, I think that's great. I wish my Arc weaponry had this rule.
What are we worried about here? Tesseract Vaults? I feel like most of the big things with good invulns are monsters rather than vehicles.
That said, if vehicle hate has a place in any army it'll be DE. Plausibly you can handle big monsters with poison, and elite infantry with disintegrators.
I wasn't aware that HWB do extra wounds, for some reason I thought they just turned into MW on a 4+. That makes them a much closer competitor with blasters in my eyes, especially with the points difference.
If i remember correctly, weren't the missiles for the voidraven and razorwing free now?
If so, and considering that the voidraven is also a bit cheaper now, i think 155 pts for 1 voidraven is extremely worth it, it pretty much only needs to use its bombs to make back its points.
It's striking how pushed the Eldar flyers are in general. Tau and Necron flyers are not very good, and the good Imperium flyers mostly seem to be good by accident. Meanwhile Eldar flyers have access to good traits (a fantastic trait in the case of Craftworld flyers) and tend to be competitive with other choices in the codex even ignoring the Hard To Hit rule.
E.g., a Crimson Hunter kills tanks almost as well as a stationary Fire Prism using the Linked Fire stratagem for the same price, and has the same number of wounds and the same armor save. Everyone knows how much ass Hemlocks kick.
Even with Ravagers getting a bigger buff, Razorwings are still competitive with them. A twin splinter rifle and the missiles are arguably worth as much as a dark lance, and they're otherwise very similar except that the RJF gets Hard To Hit.
Likewise a Void Raven with missiles for 160 is a (slightly tougher) flying Ravager. The scythes average as many hits as a disintegrator with much better strength and a bit better AP, and the lances are dark lances with an edge vs T8. Since the weapons seem to be at least equally good, this means that relative to a 3 DL Ravager you're only paying 20 points for the bomb (or 35 relative to a 3 disintegrator loadout). And the bomb kills 27 points of even a naked Infantry Squad, with an absolutely huge ceiling against more expensive models, and isn't even wasted against vehicles or monsters. Again this seems like a reasonable choice over a Ravager even before Hard To Hit.
Obviously the argument for the Ravager is: it can stay in place and hold objectives, and it stops you from getting tabled. I don't really find this persuasive, though, because Ravagers attract anti-tank fire. You've got to deal with the 10-wound model putting out 9 Primaris-melting shots per turn. The Venoms are at least close enough to hit with your 24" guns, are more vulnerable to S5 and S6, and are themselves at -1 to hit. A Razorwing with roughly the same output is just as threatening. Certainly my experience with Hemlocks is that the tabling thing is not a concern because if your Hemlocks live to turn 3 you're not the one who has to worry about getting tabled.
I guess it's also worth pointing out that tournament results seem to show that you can avoid tabling even with lots of flyers as long as you have a couple of fast characters, though I don't know that all-out flyer spam is a reasonable strategy for Eldar since they don't have anything like a hurricane bolter.
They got rid of the tabling rule with only flyers on the field. They can’t take objectives, but you don’t auto lose. (If I’m wrong about that, please tell me where it is so I can see it)
How good are mandrakes now really? I used 2 x 10 man teams at the old 19 points. Now at 16 points but unable to benefit from obsessions, I'd say they're about the same. Currently painting all 20 because I know they will see a lot of play.
AesSedai wrote: How good are mandrakes now really? I used 2 x 10 man teams at the old 19 points. Now at 16 points but unable to benefit from obsessions, I'd say they're about the same. Currently painting all 20 because I know they will see a lot of play.
They ysed to be good. Now they are only better.
Also, one of the best models in the game if you are a descent painter.
AesSedai wrote: How good are mandrakes now really? I used 2 x 10 man teams at the old 19 points. Now at 16 points but unable to benefit from obsessions, I'd say they're about the same. Currently painting all 20 because I know they will see a lot of play.
They ysed to be good. Now they are only better.
Also, one of the best models in the game if you are a descent painter.
I'm a decent painter, so you'll probably like mine. I carefully replaced all their ccw with the more evil looking wych weapon conversions. The balefire and energy swirls are tricky to paint.
Regarding DE flyers the problem is that they tend to be risky in 4x4 maps as you can't really fly anywhere except in the usual box of the map itself. This means that you'll often be in the enemy zone and if they are careful(and have enough units) they can try to position their troops so you can't place your flyer. If you can't position your flyer it is removed from the game.
Also, Ravagers do benefit more from LOS terrain so if you are used to playing with a lot of terrain they can hunt by limiting the amount of stuff that can see them. Basically I've found Ravagers useful in rich terrain maps and flyers better when people are afraid of using terrain.
However, to be fair most people tend to put very little terrain so flyers tend to be the safer all-around bet. Even I am considering getting one extra of each to play with(and test putting LEDs in).
I ran a test game yesterday with the new leaked stuff. Emphasized kabal and wych cult so lots of venoms, kabalites with a blaster, wyches, scourges, mandrakes, and 2 razorwing jetfighters. I also took a blob of 20 kabalites with 4 blasters and 2 lances and another blob of 19 wyches which I deepstruck in. Played against a Tau army which was a very difficult matchup in past editions.
He got first turn and was able to kill both jets and a couple venoms even though I set them out of range of most of his army. I countered and killed almost all the stuff he deepstruck in and then controlled the board from there. He was confined to basically just 2 square feet of the whole table while I was spread out everywhere else.
All my kabal stuff did great, but the wych stuff was disappointing at best for me. Wyches couldn't charge in because of all the overwatch and when I did get the two succubi in, he won both rolloffs to fall back and shoot everything I'd pushed up anyways. Bad luck on that I guess since I only needed to win one of them to save a lot of units. To be fair, I think the strength of wyches will be against hordes and that wasn't really what this opponent was playing.
Opponent still conceded after the 3rd turn because I had a huge point lead playing an ITC mission and I had too many units for him to kill.
I've been playing Dark Eldar since 3rd edition and I have to say this is my favorite codex out of all of them so far. Sure, I wish we had more mobility options on characters (but with reroll advances they do actually keep up pretty well even if you don't give them their own venom or hide them in a raider with other units) and I wish we hadn't lost so many characters last edition. On the other hand, I've never felt like there were so many usable units in the codex and different army builds I can make. I had a hell of a lot of fun and have made lots of different lists that play very differently.
Same point cost, strength range and ability, now assault D6 and AP-1.
Seems ok, good for deep striking a huge block of warriors down for sure. Drop 20 warriors, scythe down tons of infantry, then fire and fade to either block counterattack or press the advantage.
lessthanjeff wrote: I ran a test game yesterday with the new leaked stuff. Emphasized kabal and wych cult so lots of venoms, kabalites with a blaster, wyches, scourges, mandrakes, and 2 razorwing jetfighters. I also took a blob of 20 kabalites with 4 blasters and 2 lances and another blob of 19 wyches which I deepstruck in. Played against a Tau army which was a very difficult matchup in past editions.
He got first turn and was able to kill both jets and a couple venoms even though I set them out of range of most of his army. I countered and killed almost all the stuff he deepstruck in and then controlled the board from there. He was confined to basically just 2 square feet of the whole table while I was spread out everywhere else.
All my kabal stuff did great, but the wych stuff was disappointing at best for me. Wyches couldn't charge in because of all the overwatch and when I did get the two succubi in, he won both rolloffs to fall back and shoot everything I'd pushed up anyways. Bad luck on that I guess since I only needed to win one of them to save a lot of units. To be fair, I think the strength of wyches will be against hordes and that wasn't really what this opponent was playing.
Opponent still conceded after the 3rd turn because I had a huge point lead playing an ITC mission and I had too many units for him to kill.
I've been playing Dark Eldar since 3rd edition and I have to say this is my favorite codex out of all of them so far. Sure, I wish we had more mobility options on characters (but with reroll advances they do actually keep up pretty well even if you don't give them their own venom or hide them in a raider with other units) and I wish we hadn't lost so many characters last edition. On the other hand, I've never felt like there were so many usable units in the codex and different army builds I can make. I had a hell of a lot of fun and have made lots of different lists that play very differently.
Awesome, thanks for the feedback. Did you run shard nets at all? I wish succubus could take the standard wych weapons, this would increase their utility by a ton. More then a bike IMO. Sounds like you were mostly running standard wyches, thats a rough match for them facing tau, the overwatch is the literal worst case scenario and then on top of that so much of the stuff has fly. Shardnets would have helps, but only if you can get in first. Either way, I am sure the cult stuff did it's job, cult and coven do the same task really. Cult has the speed and numbers but die in droves while the coven stuff just won't die so often people prefer the coven stuff. I am OK with my cult stuff dying so long as it's taking pressure off my kabal units. They definitely are the harder third of the army though, thats for sure.
EDIT: What Sept was he running BTW? Again, this makes a major difference if he is overwatching on a 5+ lol.
Awesome, thanks for the feedback. Did you run shard nets at all? I wish succubus could take the standard wych weapons, this would increase their utility by a ton. More then a bike IMO. Sounds like you were mostly running standard wyches, thats a rough match for them facing tau, the overwatch is the literal worst case scenario and then on top of that so much of the stuff has fly. Shardnets would have helps, but only if you can get in first. Either way, I am sure the cult stuff did it's job, cult and coven do the same task really. Cult has the speed and numbers but die in droves while the coven stuff just won't die so often people prefer the coven stuff. I am OK with my cult stuff dying so long as it's taking pressure off my kabal units. They definitely are the harder third of the army though, thats for sure.
EDIT: What Sept was he running BTW? Again, this makes a major difference if he is overwatching on a 5+ lol.
I didn't run any wych weapons because I wasn't sure if they had price adjustments or rule changes. It was definitely a bad matchup to test the wyches, but I think they'll be more important against enemy hordes especially with the ability to customize strength, toughness, or attacks based on the opponent's list. The only charges I made were from doing so out of LOS though. I'm either going to run them again in my next game or test a reaver heavy wych list that tries to make first turn charges instead. In the game I played, he was using Sa'Cea which actually worked very well for his markerlight sources and broadsides with rail rifles. The plethora of smart missile systems were still the bane of my existence.
The other unit that can handle hordes pretty well is mandrakes. With their 2 shots each, 3 attacks in combat (now with ap -1), and new price drop they can actually kill a lot of models for a decent price point (up to 7 per mandrake without strategems if you roll super hot). I'm still lukewarm on the coven stuff mostly because I"m not big on wracks though. I will caution that it does get tricky keeping track of which units have which buffs. I'm going to be repainting/buying new stuff so I can get different colored units to better keep track.
Awesome, thanks for the feedback. Did you run shard nets at all? I wish succubus could take the standard wych weapons, this would increase their utility by a ton. More then a bike IMO. Sounds like you were mostly running standard wyches, thats a rough match for them facing tau, the overwatch is the literal worst case scenario and then on top of that so much of the stuff has fly. Shardnets would have helps, but only if you can get in first. Either way, I am sure the cult stuff did it's job, cult and coven do the same task really. Cult has the speed and numbers but die in droves while the coven stuff just won't die so often people prefer the coven stuff. I am OK with my cult stuff dying so long as it's taking pressure off my kabal units. They definitely are the harder third of the army though, thats for sure.
EDIT: What Sept was he running BTW? Again, this makes a major difference if he is overwatching on a 5+ lol.
I didn't run any wych weapons because I wasn't sure if they had price adjustments or rule changes. It was definitely a bad matchup to test the wyches, but I think they'll be more important against enemy hordes especially with the ability to customize strength, toughness, or attacks based on the opponent's list. The only charges I made were from doing so out of LOS though. I'm either going to run them again in my next game or test a reaver heavy wych list that tries to make first turn charges instead. In the game I played, he was using Sa'Cea which actually worked very well for his markerlight sources and broadsides with rail rifles. The plethora of smart missile systems were still the bane of my existence.
The other unit that can handle hordes pretty well is mandrakes. With their 2 shots each, 3 attacks in combat (now with ap -1), and new price drop they can actually kill a lot of models for a decent price point (up to 7 per mandrake without strategems if you roll super hot). I'm still lukewarm on the coven stuff mostly because I"m not big on wracks though. I will caution that it does get tricky keeping track of which units have which buffs. I'm going to be repainting/buying new stuff so I can get different colored units to better keep track.
No price changes.
Shardnet now gains the additional ability that a unit wishing to fall back from a wych unit containing a Shardnet now only rolls a D3 for the purposes of No Escape (I did this in my game where I purposefully did not kill one Stealth Suit to try and stop them falling back, and they beat me with their D3 anyway <.<
Razorflail now exchanges its reroll to hit with +D3 additional attacks (on top of the previous existing bonus attack).
Hydras unchanged.
The weapons are now a much more interesting set of choices. Its almost always useful to include one shardnet (unless you're like a 20-blob of Strife wyches that's just going to shred everything you touch), and the other two are situational depending on drug and cult. Cursed Blade tends to like the new Razorflails, Strife likes Hydra Gauntlets.
Opinions - for transports, does the 6+++ durability of Black Heart make up for the reroll 1s to hit of Flayed Skull? I was considering Flayed Skull a no-brainer, but I am getting the sense that unless it's nerfed, we need a Black Heart detachment for the Agents of Vect stratagem. If I can consolidate into a Black Heart brigade instead of my current WIP list of Flayed Skull Battalion, Red Grief Outrider, and Black Heart Air Wing, that would be convenient.
What about the Haemunculus coven? I can't find online news about specific stratagems for them (other than the ones previewd in WH community) or the stats of all the weapons they own. Talos and Grotesques have like a dozen of different index equipments and they are all useless with complicated rules. I'm afraid they are going to struggle against multi wound targets.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Talos has that new equipment, but mathwise is not that great compared to the macroscalpel, even against vehicles. Or maybe I missed something...
Chippen wrote: Opinions - for transports, does the 6+++ durability of Black Heart make up for the reroll 1s to hit of Flayed Skull? I was considering Flayed Skull a no-brainer, but I am getting the sense that unless it's nerfed, we need a Black Heart detachment for the Agents of Vect stratagem. If I can consolidate into a Black Heart brigade instead of my current WIP list of Flayed Skull Battalion, Red Grief Outrider, and Black Heart Air Wing, that would be convenient.
The reroll of ones is only for rapid fire weapons, so if your not using a ton of gun boat squads or venoms and instead are using more ravagers or min squads in raiders I would say it isn't nearly as useful as the 6+++ especially when you consider the other buffs the archon is getting for being black heart. Flayed skull really begs you to go all in on venom spam or fully kitted warrior raider squads to get the bets mileage.
DarklyDreaming wrote: What about the Haemunculus coven? I can't find online news about specific stratagems for them (other than the ones previewd in WH community) or the stats of all the weapons they own. Talos and Grotesques have like a dozen of different index equipments and they are all useless with complicated rules. I'm afraid they are going to struggle against multi wound targets.
Talos:
+1A base
Significant point drop (I forget the exact value, less than the 37 points the cronos went down I think maybe 15-20 for the body of the Talos)
All melee weapons grant +1A if you have one (effectively, you get -1A if you take the liquifiers)
Macro-scalpel gains additional -1 AP One weapon got changed to a Powerfist type weapon, with x2S, -1 to hit, and I think flat 3 damage like a dread CCW. Unclear whether this is a totally new weapon (The Hand type one from the kit) or a replacement of one of the existing talos weapons.
Guns all got price drops (Heat Lances down to 12 or 13pts, haywire now 7pts, Splinters now 10). Didnt get a leak on if the stinger got a change.
Other Coven stuff:
Liquifiers down 3 points.
Ossefactors down to 7 points, rule clarified so that it only causes a max of 1 mortal wound (many people played like this already, others had convoluted rules argument to argue that it could cause infinite mortals if you kept rolling 4+)
"Many" existing melee weapons go down in points, unclear what's up there.
Urien Rakarth now 90 points
Gains extra +1S aura, also gets the excellent Prophets of Flesh WL trait (Reroll invuln saves of 1 within 6") so has 3 auras.
Loses his base 4++, because he gets the PoF +1 to invuln trait.
Now halves damage, rounding up, rather than his current reroll thing aura.
Basic Haemie now 70pts (minus 7 or 8 I believe)
Wracks -2pts base cost
Grots up 1 point, but gain 1 wound and I think something else statwise EDIT: One poster believed that the Cleavers gained an additional AP, but they might have been confusing the Monsterous Cleaver with the Macro-Scalpel, which got the same buff. it's possible both cleavery weapons went up to -2AP base.
The reroll of ones is only for rapid fire weapons, so if your not using a ton of gun boat squads or venoms and instead are using more ravagers or min squads in raiders I would say it isn't nearly as useful as the 6+++ especially when you consider the other buffs the archon is getting for being black heart. Flayed skull really begs you to go all in on venom spam or fully kitted warrior raider squads to get the bets mileage.
Either way it's a core of Kabs + Blasters in Venoms, Dissie Ravagers, and Haywire Scourge. I don't think the 6+++ would offset the -1 to hit on the Venoms so I'm still planning to run Venoms for the time being.
DarklyDreaming wrote: What about the Haemunculus coven? I can't find online news about specific stratagems for them (other than the ones previewd in WH community) or the stats of all the weapons they own. Talos and Grotesques have like a dozen of different index equipments and they are all useless with complicated rules. I'm afraid they are going to struggle against multi wound targets.
Talos:
+1A base
Significant point drop (I forget the exact value, less than the 37 points the cronos went down I think maybe 15-20 for the body of the Talos)
All melee weapons grant +1A if you have one (effectively, you get -1A if you take the liquifiers)
Macro-scalpel gains additional -1 AP One weapon got changed to a Powerfist type weapon, with x2S, -1 to hit, and I think flat 3 damage like a dread CCW. Unclear whether this is a totally new weapon (The Hand type one from the kit) or a replacement of one of the existing talos weapons.
Guns all got price drops (Heat Lances down to 12 or 13pts, haywire now 7pts, Splinters now 10). Didnt get a leak on if the stinger got a change.
Other Coven stuff:
Liquifiers down 3 points.
Ossefactors down to 7 points, rule clarified so that it only causes a max of 1 mortal wound (many people played like this already, others had convoluted rules argument to argue that it could cause infinite mortals if you kept rolling 4+)
"Many" existing melee weapons go down in points, unclear what's up there.
Urien Rakarth now 90 points
Gains extra +1S aura, also gets the excellent Prophets of Flesh WL trait (Reroll invuln saves of 1 within 6") so has 3 auras.
Loses his base 4++, because he gets the PoF +1 to invuln trait.
Now halves damage, rounding up, rather than his current reroll thing aura.
Basic Haemie now 70pts (minus 7 or 8 I believe)
Wracks -2pts base cost
Grots up 1 point, but gain 1 wound and I think something else statwise EDIT: One poster believed that the Cleavers gained an additional AP, but they might have been confusing the Monsterous Cleaver with the Macro-Scalpel, which got the same buff. it's possible both cleavery weapons went up to -2AP base.
I thought Diabolical Soothsayer, the +D3 Command Points, was the Prophets of Flesh warlord trait?
The reroll of ones is only for rapid fire weapons, so if your not using a ton of gun boat squads or venoms and instead are using more ravagers or min squads in raiders I would say it isn't nearly as useful as the 6+++ especially when you consider the other buffs the archon is getting for being black heart. Flayed skull really begs you to go all in on venom spam or fully kitted warrior raider squads to get the bets mileage.
Either way it's a core of Kabs + Blasters in Venoms, Dissie Ravagers, and Haywire Scourge. I don't think the 6+++ would offset the -1 to hit on the Venoms so I'm still planning to run Venoms for the time being.
I'm with Red Corsair, transports benefit more from Flayed Skull, Flyers and Ravagers get more from Black Heart.
Son of a gun - you're right, Imateria, he would get the +CP trait. I had it mixed up, the reroll 1s to invuln aura trait is a generic trait you can take on any haemonculus (it's just awesome with PoF). Of the three unique traits though, PoF probably get the best one.
As to stratagems, here's what we have leaked:
1CP: one unit gets +1 to the PFP chart for the turn
1CP: a unit throwing a grenade throws a haywire grenade, dealing D3 mortal wounds to a vehicle
1CP: A wych cult unit with Fly that passes over an enemy unit can perform a flyby attack. Roll a die for each model in the wych cult unit, on a 6 (5 or 6 vs infantry) you deal a mortal wound.
Side note: Hellions cap out at a max unit size of 20. This is a totally unrelated note to the stratagem mentioned above.
1CP: A monster or grotesque regains D3 wounds.
1CP: Fire and Fade, move 7" immediately after shooting but can't charge.
2CP: Fall back and still shoot, identical to Eldar one.
2CP: Select a Coven unit, reroll wounds in the fight phase with that unit.
1CP: On hit with a PGL, roll 3D6 vs LD, if you beat it deal D3 mortal wounds.
2CP: Poisoned Tongue Only, redeploy 3 units during deployment.
1CP: Cursed Blade only, if unit is in cover and gets charged, 4+ to cause D3 mortal wounds (Identical to Catachan Traps stratagem)
2CP: Red Grief Only, 6in consolidate towards your vehicle to get back in.
3CP: Strife Only, The fight again one
3CP: Black Heart Only, Agents of Nope
1CP: Obsidian Rose only, Failure is Not an Option
2CP: Dark Creed Only, Esoteric Kill From Afar
1CP: Coven of Twelve only, Deliver Punishment
2CP: Prophets of Flesh Only, Tide of Wracks
Also, pretty certain HL is 12 and haywire B is 8. Wracks might not be -2. There are a lot of pieces to the picture out there, but not a whole one so I feel there are a lot of misinformed posts muddying things up a bit. For example there is a thread over at TDC where one poster transcribed the BOLS video and posted some things that were way off the mark. So be careful, I'd advise people to take everything with a mild dose of skepticism and to watch any leak videos for themselves.
Wracks used to be 10 PPM but you had to by the wracks tools for +1, so if wracks went down to 9 base they would still cost 10ppm if you still are required to purchase their basic weapons. This is one example of where people are getting ahead of themselves.
Books will be in are hands soon enough though, and we have plenty of solid info to keep us scheming until then.
A note about transports as well: Assuming the rule from the index does not change, and transports can still transport all Drukhari, it may behoove you to consider taking transports from a different subfaction for benefits.
Black Heart, Flayed Skull, and Dark Creed offer many more interesting benefits to transports than many of the others. If you include, for instance, the popularly talked-about Black Heart airwing detachment to unlock Agents of Nope, you might consider taking 3 BH transports to get that 6+++ to transport your wyches or wracks.
Eldarsif wrote: Regarding DE flyers the problem is that they tend to be risky in 4x4 maps as you can't really fly anywhere except in the usual box of the map itself. This means that you'll often be in the enemy zone and if they are careful(and have enough units) they can try to position their troops so you can't place your flyer. If you can't position your flyer it is removed from the game.
Also, Ravagers do benefit more from LOS terrain so if you are used to playing with a lot of terrain they can hunt by limiting the amount of stuff that can see them. Basically I've found Ravagers useful in rich terrain maps and flyers better when people are afraid of using terrain.
However, to be fair most people tend to put very little terrain so flyers tend to be the safer all-around bet. Even I am considering getting one extra of each to play with(and test putting LEDs in).
Why are you playing on a 4x4? Are you playing 1k points or something?
war wrote: They got rid of the tabling rule with only flyers on the field. They can’t take objectives, but you don’t auto lose. (If I’m wrong about that, please tell me where it is so I can see it)
Dionysodorus wrote: Is the Haemonculus warlord trait re-rolling invuln saves of 1 or is it re-rolling FNP saves of 1? One is much, much better than the other.
my source for all this info is from the TTT video:
-The haemie reroll trait is for invuln saves (other sources said it was for "pain" saves but I believe the rule is actually called "insensible to pain" so the wording is probably using that.)
-The flyover rule does not require Advancing as he used it in the video, just movement in the movement phase
-you can take one dedicated transport per other unit in any detachment (not from TTT, just base rules of the game)
Okay, I believe I've calmed down sufficiently about our HQs still having no bloody mobility.
Don't worry, GW, when I converted those models to have wings, it was only so they'd make for better paperweights. Not like I'd want an HQ to hang out with my Scourges; or for a Succubus who could ride with her Reavers into combat, rather than just sitting behind them on a Venom, eating pies.
Okay, okay. I'm done for now. I promise to say nothing more about the lack of mobility on HQs for the rest of this post.
In terms of other stuff, the artefacts all seem pretty nice. Shame there couldn't have been one for wing- NO! BAD VIPOID! But yeah, a nice mix of buffs, weapons and flavour. A lot of fun Warlord Traits, too. I kinda want to have an Archon with Soulthirst, Soul Seeker and Huskblade to make a pseudo-Mandrake. Then I can use WWP to deploy him with some actual Mandrakes. Not efficient but could be quite fun.
Incidentally, Mandraks seem very good. I like that their melee weapons have AP-1 now.
Removal of Trueborn is really disappointing. Especially since Kabalites are still really limited in the number of special weapons they can take. I'd rather they'd stayed at 7pts and been able to take 2 special weapons per 5 (I'm here to play DE - not Orks ).
No change in Liquifier Gun or Hexrifle is equally disappointing.
However, for the first time, Shredders actually seem like they might be useful. I didn't know such a thing was even possible.
Scourges seem very good. Incubi are cheaper and Drazhar is no longer garbage.
Reavers could be decent, I think.
Annoying that the Court of the Archon's rerolls still don't work if they're in the same transport as their Archon.
Most vehicles went down significantly in price, thank God.
In terms of the different subfactions, Kabal looks to be the best at the moment. Not least because they actually get to benefit from Open Topped, whilst the melee subfactions get to eat s**t. Also, I think ranged can work without melee, but I don't think melee can work without ranged (and both Cult and Coven have very limited ranged ability).
I have to say though, our HQs are really looking like taxes. Even more so if you want to try the 4+ Patrols thing.
- The Archon's aura only really works with Ravagers. Otherwise, he's either footslogging and only able to buff transports, or else in a transport and not able to buff anything. They also got more expensive (not by a huge amount but still an unnecessary increase).
- Haemonculi work okay on foot, but how many of them do you really need? And like the Archon, they're far from cheap.
- The Succubus is the cheapest, which is something, but she doesn't do a whole lot and its doubtful that you need more than one of her aura.
Serious question - what are you guys planning to do with all your HQs?
I've made a first pass at a list that does most of its anti-infantry damage through Leadership, which I think might be a fun shtick to try to pull. Obviously, not tournament competitive, so I've totally disregarded detachment limits in my pursuit of silliness.
CWE Spearhead Detachment (Alaitoc)
HQ: Farseer Skyrunner (Doom, Mind War)
HS: War Walker with 2x Bright Lances
HS: 5x Dark Reapers with Exarch
HS: War Walker with 2x Bright Lances
Flyer: Hemlock Wraithfighter (Terrify)
DE Patrol Detachment (Dark Creed)
HQ: Haemonculus w/electrocorrosive, Dark Creed Warlord Trait, PGL (Roll 3D6 vs LD at the beginning of the turn for each enemy unit within 3", deal a mortal wound to each unit you beat)
Troops: 5x Wracks with Ossefactor, Electrocorrosive
HQ: Archon w/blast pistol and Huskblade, PGL (Generic Archon warlord trait: Enemy units within 6" roll 2 dice for LD tests and take the highest)
Troops: 10x Kabalites w/PGL, 2x Blaster, DL
Transport: Venom 2x SC, Grizzly Trophies
DE Patrol Detachment (Red Grief)
HQ: Succubus with Archite Glaive and blast pistol, Addict trait
Troops: 5x Wyches with Shardnet, Blast Pistol power sword PGL hekatrix
Fast: 9x Reavers, 3x Grav Talons
Harlequin Vanguard Detachment
HQ: Shadowseer (Twilight, Mirror of Minds)
Elite: Death Jester
Elite: Death Jester
Elite: Solitaire (Harlequin Relic: The mask of secrets)
General tactics here is the Red Grief bikers are to distract/tie up as much as possible while my transports get into position turn 1. As much of my shooting as possible is anti-tank focused, since I'll be using LD to help clear hordes. turn 2 on, I can very trivially stack most infantry targets to -6LD to -8LD, and then I have numerous different weapons designed to put 1-2 wounds on each enemy unit to force tests.
Thank you so much Scotsman for gathering the news! Unfortunately I believe some are not totally right, but dont worry.
The stratagem of regaining wounds on monsters and rerolling wounds is amazing! Where have you heard it?
So, assuming a list already has an Archon, what are peoples' thoughts on Drazhar instead of a second fights Archon? I'm still a bit in the dark on Drazhar's new capabilities, but I figure it's still not too early to consider my options.
If he didnt get cheaper, not worth it, 2 Succubus are way more damage and still only 2/3 the cost. But if you take Lots of Incubi i would take him, tho IDK if Incubi are even worth it anymore.
But i would love to use him, so i hope he is at least 30pts cheaper, i would play him in that case.
So I play Ynarri harlequins and I am really excited about wyches. I am thinking of running a group of 20 of them with some shard net and implailers, deep strike them in and the words of the Phoenix them into charge range. If they can multi charge several units and tie them up for a few turns while my harlequins run around killing other targets, might be really good.
Scourge are also looking really nice to drop down with blasters and be made to shoot twice. I might be able to drop a lot of fusion pistols as my anti-tank is elsewhere.
Serious question - what are you guys planning to do with all your HQs?
Well I never liked the archons and I don't think I'll bring many of them now. Two haemys are the way to go for me since I love grots and talos but I think a single succubus can fit well, she's cheap and now wyches may have a purpose. I think 3 HQs are the max number to field, a battallion plus another detachment or the 3x patrol detachments thing. More HQs are a huge tax.
I'm not worried about the lack of mobility that our HQs have. I planned to run 2 haemys anyway: one that shares a raider with 4 grots and the second one footslogs with talos. Eventually I'll bring a succubus who is fast enough to footslog with the appropriate drug and after all if you seek a turn 3 assault she doesn't need more speed. The best drugs like the +1S, +1A, +1T are all better on reavers, hellions, wyches and the +1WS is useless on a succubus, so the real choice is between the LD boost or the increased movement range. 20 wyches on foot can also be a thing now so no need of more speed on the HQ in this case either.
Archons can share a venom with up to four bodyguards from the court or up to nine incubi in a raider. I don't think I'd ever want to run him with something else as he doesn't give the aura to shooting units while embarked, so the 10 kabals plus the archon in a raider never seemed interesting to me. The only case in which a fast HQ or a better transport capacity on a raider are needed is when you want to field one or more units of 10 wyches in a raider.
Apologies if this is a stupid question, but are some units getting cheaper in terms of power level, or is it just points that are being adjusted? Thanks.
lambsandlions wrote: So I play Ynarri harlequins and I am really excited about wyches. I am thinking of running a group of 20 of them with some shard net and implailers, deep strike them in and the words of the Phoenix them into charge range. If they can multi charge several units and tie them up for a few turns while my harlequins run around killing other targets, might be really good.
Scourge are also looking really nice to drop down with blasters and be made to shoot twice. I might be able to drop a lot of fusion pistols as my anti-tank is elsewhere.
The dirtiest Ynnari wych combo available is to do the following:
1) Take them as Cult of Strife, ensuring that you have a Drukhari detachment of some sort in your army (Current most competitive one in town appears to be Archon+3 Ravagers in a Spearhead)
2) Put them in a Raider or some such other device to get them within 4" of an enemy unit WITHOUT using Word of the Pheonix. Let's assume you've got 10, you've selected Attack drugs, and you're popping out of a Raider.
3) Use Word of the Pheonix and select "Fight" as an option. The fight phase sequence is Pile in, attack, consolidate - so you select your wyches, they Pile In, ignoring overwatch. Use the 2CP "Hyperstim Backlash" stratagem to increase their attacks by an additional +1 for the rest of the turn, because that's about to get you some serious value.
4) Make your 51 attacks in the Psychic Phase. Wait for the fight phase.
5) Select them to fight in the fight phase, make your 51 attacks again, and try to kill a unit. Activate the special Strife stratagem for 3CP
6) Make your 51 attacks again.
It costs 5CP, which is really steep, but that 100pt unit of wyches just threw 153 attacks, and the Hyperstimm Backlash stratagem is going to benefit you for up to 40 extra attacks (it remains active into your opponent's turn). You totally ignored overwatch, and because you didn't charge that turn, you're totally open to bounce from enemy unit to enemy unit, attacking anyone you can get into range with during your pile in moves.
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Amishprn86 wrote: If he didnt get cheaper, not worth it, 2 Succubus are way more damage and still only 2/3 the cost. But if you take Lots of Incubi i would take him, tho IDK if Incubi are even worth it anymore.
But i would love to use him, so i hope he is at least 30pts cheaper, i would play him in that case.
Splintermind podcast mentioned he got a lot cheaper, I forget the exact value but it was over 20pts.
So here's a rough list I've been working on, close combat oriented to do something different than the usual Venom spam. It's roughly 1900pts at the moment, there's too many specifics that people haven't been particualrly clear on to make a set list yet. I'll spend a Command point to give all 3 HQ's a WT.
3x Talos, Heat Lances and the Power Fist equivelant
3x Talos, Heat Lances and the Power Fist equivelant
Patrol Detachment (Cut of the Red Grief)
Succubus, Splinter Pistol, Archite Glaive, +2M Combat Drug, Stim Addict warlord trait for a second drug. Relic Archite Glaive.
8xWyches, Shardnet and Impaler, +1WS drug
Raider, Disintegrator Cannon
20x Wyches, Shardnet and Impaler, as many Razorflails as I can fit, +1S combat drug
12x Reavers, 4x Heat Lances, 4x Grav Talons
10x Hellions
The Grots and big Wych blob start in the webway, I've got a decent track record of making 9" charges. Succubus and Archon go in the Raider assuming our transports aren't Obsession locked still, if they are then the Archon becomes a back field objective holder.
Imateria wrote: So here's a rough list I've been working on, close combat oriented to do something different than the usual Venom spam. It's roughly 1900pts at the moment, there's too many specifics that people haven't been particualrly clear on to make a set list yet. I'll spend a Command point to give all 3 HQ's a WT.
3x Talos, Heat Lances and the Power Fist equivelant
3x Talos, Heat Lances and the Power Fist equivelant
Patrol Detachment (Cut of the Red Grief)
Succubus, Splinter Pistol, Archite Glaive, +2M Combat Drug, Stim Addict warlord trait for a second drug. Relic Archite Glaive.
8xWyches, Shardnet and Impaler, +1WS drug
Raider, Disintegrator Cannon
20x Wyches, Shardnet and Impaler, as many Razorflails as I can fit, +1S combat drug
12x Reavers, 4x Heat Lances, 4x Grav Talons
10x Hellions
The Grots and big Wych blob start in the webway, I've got a decent track record of making 9" charges. Succubus and Archon go in the Raider assuming our transports aren't Obsession locked still, if they are then the Archon becomes a back field objective holder.
I think Hellions always lose out to Reavers in Red Grief. I think if you want Hellions, you want to get yourself into Cursed Blade. 5 points more buys you +1W, +1T, +4Mv plus 8" advance and still charge... if this is trying to be a "make competitive" list, I think there's no question that I'd trade out those 10 hellions for however many points that buys me in more red grief Reavers with as many grav talons and blasters as they can get their hands on.
On the flip side, Cursed Blade Hellions actually get to feeling really good. 5S base gives you the option to get them wounding on 2s with +1S (if you're up against majority T3 armies), or the default +Mv drugs, but the big thing is the morale immunity allowing you to deploy them as blobs of 20 where the Flyby attack stratagem starts being super high value for the CP. Red Grief Reavers make excellent use of it too, especially because they don't trade their close combat attacks for it, but those guys become absolute magnets for plasma equivalent weaponry. The problem is, Hellions of anything but Cursed blade get just scythed down by lasgun equivalents. I think they're not terrible running 5-man with grav talon helliarchs but they're just medicre to OK. But I'd never run non-cursed blade at higher than 5 man unless you're giving them Splintermind.
the_scotsman wrote: Splintermind podcast mentioned he got a lot cheaper, I forget the exact value but it was over 20pts.
Eh. He'd have to come down by at least 40pts before I'd seriously consider him.
Yeah, like I said in a previous comment somewhere - named characters are (and should be) Timmy choices, not serious competitive choices, if you're going to be balancing around different subfactions and limiting your characters to particular subfactions. I shouldn't be forced to take Mars because Cawl is 1000% better than a TPD in every way, even if a different subfaction would benefit my army build more. That just leads to monobuilds and crappy design. So I think what we've got are several characters who do "cool, awesome stuff' for not a whole lot of points, but none of the stuff they do is particularly optimized one way or another, it's just a lot of different tricks they can pull.
Urien's got this aura and that aura and he gives you CPs and he's got some crazy weapons and he's got a half damage thing and he's got a better statline and it's all only 20 points for him over a default Haemie...but eh, for about the same points I can make a default haemie with a more focused goal and build. The only real standout case for Urien is if you want to run a whole passel of Taloi and you want to bump them to S7 on their cleavers.
I don't know about Drazar (The only reason I think you might really consider him is if you're doing a 2HQ Kabal detachment, you want a beatstick but you don't want to spend your relic making a beatstick) but Lelith and Urien I think both hit a good spot with the new points costs. They have tricks, they've got interesting roles, but they're not so auto-include that you MUST take that subfaction to get them.
the_scotsman wrote: Splintermind podcast mentioned he got a lot cheaper, I forget the exact value but it was over 20pts.
Eh. He'd have to come down by at least 40pts before I'd seriously consider him.
This, he is 140pts, so what if 4-5 attacks attacking twice, a Succubus now is that strong and 1/3 the points. I would rather have 3 Succubus than 1 Drahzar until i see his points, he really needs to be at least 100pts. But iw ould play him for fun at 105-110.
the_scotsman wrote: 3) Use Word of the Pheonix and select "Fight" as an option. The fight phase sequence is Pile in, attack, consolidate - so you select your wyches, they Pile In,
In order to be able to fight, a unit must be within 1" of an ennemy unit BEFORE piling-in or have charged this turn.
In your example, your Wyches are 4" away from the ennemy and have not charged, so I believe they wouldn't be able to pile-in and to fight at all. Correct me if I'm wrong.
the_scotsman wrote: 3) Use Word of the Pheonix and select "Fight" as an option. The fight phase sequence is Pile in, attack, consolidate - so you select your wyches, they Pile In,
In order to be able to fight, a unit must be within 1" of an ennemy unit BEFORE piling-in or have charged this turn.
In your example, your Wyches are 4" away from the ennemy and have not charged, so I believe they wouldn't be able to pile-in and to fight at all. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I guess the question is "does Soulburst bypass that restriction?" and while I'm not 100% sure (I don't play Ynnari myself) I have disputed with that exact claim myself in a competitive event and had the TO rule against me, and in several games after that I have had the same thing done to me.
the_scotsman wrote: Splintermind podcast mentioned he got a lot cheaper, I forget the exact value but it was over 20pts.
Eh. He'd have to come down by at least 40pts before I'd seriously consider him.
This, he is 140pts, so what if 4-5 attacks attacking twice, a Succubus now is that strong and 1/3 the points. I would rather have 3 Succubus than 1 Drahzar until i see his points, he really needs to be at least 100pts. But iw ould play him for fun at 105-110.
I've seen several suggestions that Drazhar is around 90pts now.
Blackie wrote: Well I never liked the archons and I don't think I'll bring many of them now.
Well, as someone who has mostly Kabal stuff, I fear I don't really have that option.
Blackie wrote: Two haemys are the way to go for me since I love grots and talos but I think a single succubus can fit well, she's cheap and now wyches may have a purpose. I think 3 HQs are the max number to field, a battallion plus another detachment or the 3x patrol detachments thing. More HQs are a huge tax.
What does the second Haemonculus bring, though? Is it just so you can spread out a bit more without losing the aura?
I'm not worried about the lack of mobility that our HQs have. I planned to run 2 haemys anyway: one that shares a raider with 4 grots and the second one footslogs with talos.
Sure, but Haemonculi are also the HQs least in need of speed.
What if you instead wanted some Archons?
Blackie wrote: Eventually I'll bring a succubus who is fast enough to footslog with the appropriate drug and after all if you seek a turn 3 assault she doesn't need more speed.
And what if you actually wanted to run her with Reavers or Hellions?
Or would that just result in an overdose of fun for DE players?
Blackie wrote: The best drugs like the +1S, +1A, +1T are all better on reavers, hellions, wyches and the +1WS is useless on a succubus, so the real choice is between the LD boost or the increased movement range. 20 wyches on foot can also be a thing now so no need of more speed on the HQ in this case either.
Again though, you're acting as if Wyches are the only units a Succubus could possibly go with.
Archons can share a venom with up to four bodyguards from the court or up to nine incubi in a raider. I don't think I'd ever want to run him with something else as he doesn't give the aura to shooting units while embarked, so the 10 kabals plus the archon in a raider never seemed interesting to me.
Three points here:
1) Doesn't the court suffer from the same problem as the Kabalites in terms of not being able to use his aura while embarked? Or benefit from being near him, for that matter.
2) It could easily be changed so that, for example, giving him wings lets his aura affect Scourges as well. Or it could only affect Scourges.
3) Even if it conferred no additional benefit, I'd still love to have the option of wings or such for mobility - if only for the modelling opportunities.
Blackie wrote: The only case in which a fast HQ or a better transport capacity on a raider are needed is when you want to field one or more units of 10 wyches in a raider.
Eh. This seems to be using bad design to justify more bad design.
I think Hellions always lose out to Reavers in Red Grief. I think if you want Hellions, you want to get yourself into Cursed Blade. 5 points more buys you +1W, +1T, +4Mv plus 8" advance and still charge... if this is trying to be a "make competitive" list, I think there's no question that I'd trade out those 10 hellions for however many points that buys me in more red grief Reavers with as many grav talons and blasters as they can get their hands on.
On the flip side, Cursed Blade Hellions actually get to feeling really good. 5S base gives you the option to get them wounding on 2s with +1S (if you're up against majority T3 armies), or the default +Mv drugs, but the big thing is the morale immunity allowing you to deploy them as blobs of 20 where the Flyby attack stratagem starts being super high value for the CP. Red Grief Reavers make excellent use of it too, especially because they don't trade their close combat attacks for it, but those guys become absolute magnets for plasma equivalent weaponry. The problem is, Hellions of anything but Cursed blade get just scythed down by lasgun equivalents. I think they're not terrible running 5-man with grav talon helliarchs but they're just medicre to OK. But I'd never run non-cursed blade at higher than 5 man unless you're giving them Splintermind.
You're not wrong, there's a definite element of "trying things out" with this list rather than pushing for full competitiveness as well as considering what I have in my collection, I may have 7K of stuff (may well be down to 6K now with all the points reductions) but Wych cults are very much under represented due to being terrible for so long.
The original plan was to try out having 2 Wych Cults with the other being Strife to maximise attacks but I wanted to give all three aspects a try out first, there will be a lot of refinement along the way here.
Imateria wrote: I've seen several suggestions that Drazhar is around 90pts now.
For 90pts, I might well use him.
I'm thinking he can go in a Raider with some Incubi and basically be a suicide-HQ.
If you local allows (or tournaments youare in) to have 1 under strength unit, putting him with 4 incubi in a venom might be better, that way you can also use 1 CP to give it a bonus -1 ot hit, making it -2 to hit. If we can still cross Cult transports with units like we can in the index, a Black heart Venom will also give it 6+++.
Extremely survivable at that point, i have a friend that is doing that same thing and another with 5 Succubus (depending on the transports rules that is)
I know it is very cheesy, but comp is meant to find what is best.
The only other data point I can provide either way for this (and maybe this has been officially settled in a FAQ or YMDC) is that when a Guardsman activates his ability to perform superhuman double-action feats because some guy in a hat told him to (toldburst?) the rule "Fix Bayonets" specifically calls out the fact that it can only be issued to unit that are ALREADY within 1" of an enemy unit.
And on the other side of a coin, Khorne Bezerkers when they activate twice can cheerfully wipe a unit, and because they fight twice, they can activate again, pile in and fight again, even if they started the turn in combat and were not within 1" the second time they activate. I have had this happen many, many times since 8th started.
the_scotsman wrote: The only other data point I can provide either way for this (and maybe this has been officially settled in a FAQ or YMDC) is that when a Guardsman activates his ability to perform superhuman double-action feats because some guy in a hat told him to (toldburst?) the rule "Fix Bayonets" specifically calls out the fact that it can only be issued to unit that are ALREADY within 1" of an enemy unit.
And on the other side of a coin, Khorne Bezerkers when they activate twice can cheerfully wipe a unit, and because they fight twice, they can activate again, pile in and fight again, even if they started the turn in combat and were not within 1" the second time they activate. I have had this happen many, many times since 8th started.
On the turn you charge for that entire fight phase (attacking again is still the same game turn phase) you can NOT attack anyone you didnt charge, IF you made a charge that phase.
You have to declare a multi-charge in order to fight another unit with that stratagem. If you didnt charge that turn, you can attack anyone that you are within 1" of regardless if you started the round next to them or joined in via Pile in/Consolidate.
Imateria wrote: I've seen several suggestions that Drazhar is around 90pts now.
For 90pts, I might well use him.
I'm thinking he can go in a Raider with some Incubi and basically be a suicide-HQ.
If you local allows (or tournaments youare in) to have 1 under strength unit, putting him with 4 incubi in a venom might be better, that way you can also use 1 CP to give it a bonus -1 ot hit, making it -2 to hit. If we can still cross Cult transports with units like we can in the index, a Black heart Venom will also give it 6+++.
Extremely survivable at that point, i have a friend that is doing that same thing and another with 5 Succubus (depending on the transports rules that is)
I know it is very cheesy, but comp is meant to find what is best.
Incubi work better in large squads, so that sounds like a waste of command points to me.
the_scotsman wrote: The only other data point I can provide either way for this (and maybe this has been officially settled in a FAQ or YMDC) is that when a Guardsman activates his ability to perform superhuman double-action feats because some guy in a hat told him to (toldburst?) the rule "Fix Bayonets" specifically calls out the fact that it can only be issued to unit that are ALREADY within 1" of an enemy unit.
And on the other side of a coin, Khorne Bezerkers when they activate twice can cheerfully wipe a unit, and because they fight twice, they can activate again, pile in and fight again, even if they started the turn in combat and were not within 1" the second time they activate. I have had this happen many, many times since 8th started.
On the turn you charge for that entire fight phase (attacking again is still the same game turn phase) you can NOT attack anyone you didnt charge, IF you made a charge that phase.
You have to declare a multi-charge in order to fight another unit with that stratagem. If you didnt charge that turn, you can attack anyone that you are within 1" of regardless if you started the round next to them or joined in via Pile in/Consolidate.
Yep, that's not being discussed.
My question here is this:
If a special rule/power/whatever says "A unit may Fight" then does that still require them to follow the normal restrictions upon being selected to fight?
My thought is that the answer seems to be "no". Just like a unit being allowed to Shoot bypasses the normal restrictions on being activated (A unit being only allowed to shoot once per turn during the shooting phase) a rule that causes a unit to Fight allows them to activate regardless of whether they'd charged or were within 1" of an enemy unit, unless there is an additional stipulation (as in the case of Fix Bayonets) that the rule can only be used if the unit is within 1" of an enemy.
Fix Bayonets says "this order may only be issued to units that are within 1" of an enemy unit. The ordered unit immediately fights as if it were the fight phase."
Soulburst just says "The unit immediately fights as if it were the fight phase."
What is the distinction between those rules if not that the Soulburst rule allows me to activate units that are not already within 1" of an enemy unit?
Of course having more options is better than having less. Some options to give more speed to the HQs would be nice, indeed, I just think that there were (are?) lots of other things to fix that had priority and were more important.
What does the second Haemonculus bring, though? Is it just so you can spread out a bit more without losing the aura?
Well it depends on how many coven units you want to field. I'd like to field two units of grotesques in raiders and at least 3 talos. Maybe even something else. Two haemys are needed to buff them all.
And what if you actually wanted to run her with Reavers or Hellions?
Again though, you're acting as if Wyches are the only units a Succubus could possibly go with.
What about Hellions? Or Reavers? Or even Beasts?
I use all of those units mostly as a tarpit, I don't think they need an HQ to buff them. It would be nice, sure, but necessary? Definitely not, all those units can work well without an HQ nearby.
the_scotsman wrote: 3) Use Word of the Pheonix and select "Fight" as an option. The fight phase sequence is Pile in, attack, consolidate - so you select your wyches, they Pile In,
In order to be able to fight, a unit must be within 1" of an ennemy unit BEFORE piling-in or have charged this turn.
In your example, your Wyches are 4" away from the ennemy and have not charged, so I believe they wouldn't be able to pile-in and to fight at all. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I guess the question is "does Soulburst bypass that restriction?" and while I'm not 100% sure (I don't play Ynnari myself) I have disputed with that exact claim myself in a competitive event and had the TO rule against me, and in several games after that I have had the same thing done to me.
Ow god no no no no.... i've had this happen to me like a year ago, pre codexes comming out, someone plonked the ynncarne down and soulburst "fought" him into my army... asked in several places and many people and still havn't gotten a stright answer on this or similar scenarios. I even emailed the new GWFAQ email about it... finger crossed they adress it it in the march *BLAM* SPRING FAQ.
I can tell you one thing with 99% certainty even IF the unit is a valid target to "fight" and even IF it gets to pile in to within 1", i shouldn't be able to swing, just lock the unit in combat, as it hasn't charged and iirc only units that start the fight phase within 1" or have charged in the previous charge phase can attack.
Blackie wrote: Of course having more options is better than having less. Some options to give more speed to the HQs would be nice, indeed, I just think that there were (are?) lots of other things to fix that had priority and were more important.
What does the second Haemonculus bring, though? Is it just so you can spread out a bit more without losing the aura?
Well it depends on how many coven units you want to field. I'd like to field two units of grotesques in raiders and at least 3 talos. Maybe even something else. Two haemys are needed to buff them all.
And what if you actually wanted to run her with Reavers or Hellions?
Again though, you're acting as if Wyches are the only units a Succubus could possibly go with.
What about Hellions? Or Reavers? Or even Beasts?
I use all of those units mostly as a tarpit, I don't think they need an HQ to buff them. It would be nice, sure, but necessary? Definitely not, all those units can work well without an HQ nearby.
You're missing the point Blackie. No one cares how you play those units, it's irrelevent here, but you're arguing that because you play them one there's no need to play them a different. Thats a truly terrible argument.
You're missing the point Blackie. No one cares how you play those units, it's irrelevent here, but you're arguing that because you play them one there's no need to play them a different. Thats a truly terrible argument.
No, you're missing the point in this matter, or maybe I wasn't clear enough. I'm not saying that the option isn't needed because I play differently. I'm saying that all those units can be worthy even without a fast HQ. Which means a fast HQ is not necessary for making hellions, beasts and reavers good. They can be good even with the current rules.
The point is that having fast HQs isn't something needed. It would be great and a lot of fun, I agree about that, and having more options is alway better. But we can have efficient drukhari lists, with a wide range of worthy units, even without that option, that's my point. I'm not arguing that I don't want that option because I wouldn't use it anyway. Having coven stuff more resilient and more punchy was something needed for example, also a massive points drop on bikes and transports was necessary, etc.
You're missing the point Blackie. No one cares how you play those units, it's irrelevent here, but you're arguing that because you play them one there's no need to play them a different. Thats a truly terrible argument.
No, you're missing the point in this matter, or maybe I wasn't clear enough. I'm not saying that the option isn't needed because I play differently. I'm saying that all those units can be worthy even without a fast HQ. Which means a fast HQ is not necessary for making hellions, beasts and reavers good. They can be good even with the current rules.
The point is that having fast HQs isn't something needed. It would be great and a lot of fun, I agree about that, and having more options is alway better. But we can have efficient drukhari lists, with a wide range of worthy units, even without that option, that's my point. I'm not arguing that I don't want that option because I wouldn't use it anyway. Having coven stuff more resilient and more punchy was something needed for example, also a massive points drop on bikes and transports was necessary, etc.
I miss the synergy it brought, i miss playing the Baron, i like that style of HQ, the army is lacking in some parts and GW didnt fix one of the most requested ones.
Im disappointing for sure, but i still love DE and will still play them, heres hoping er get the one day!
Amishprn86 wrote: The 1st rules for "Choosing units to fight with" says you must either have charged or started within 1".
You can not Word of the Phoenix and make a combat from 3" away.
This should belong in the you make the call forum.
I do not know the wording of Wordmof the Phoenix, but it probably functions like other fight, or fight again. Khorne Berserkers and Tyranids have this.
There is only one 'fight' and that is the fight phase. The word fight is not used anywhere else in that section except the headline.
In order to fight you need to be within 1" of an enemy at the start of the close combat phase, or you need to have charged that turn. Furfilling those requierments starts a whole chain containing: Pile in, make attacks, make wounds, followed by saves, and then you consolidate or pile in towards the closest enemy.All of this is contained within fight.
Khorne Berserkers, the tyranid fight again stratagem (perhaps other stratagems as well) allow them to perform the whole chain mentioned above. The special rule, like the khorne berserker abilaty and tyranid stratgem provides and alternative entry into the fight chain, besides the 1" or charged requierments. This includes the 3" piling in, followed by the rest.
If you do not agree with this then please look to the fight phase and point to what the wording 'fight again' means. My interpetation, as well as all others interpetation, is that it refers to the whole fight chain. It would be different of the wording was 'make aditional attacks as if it was the fight phase' but it is not.
It is not unlikly that word of the phoenix works the same way. If you want to argue please quote the spesific rule that contradicts it because a vague 'that does not sound right' does not hold up to how they are worded in comparison to how the fight phase is worded in the rules.
You might be right. I hope you're right, honestly. The wych trick also still works if you just charge the unit of wyches, but you have to get pretty aggressive with your charge declarations to make use of all the attacks (not too bad if you get a raider in first against the worst threats, as you should.)
Amishprn86 wrote: The 1st rules for "Choosing units to fight with" says you must either have charged or started within 1".
You can not Word of the Phoenix and make a combat from 3" away.
This should belong in the you make the call forum.
I do not know the wording of Wordmof the Phoenix, but it probably functions like other fight, or fight again. Khorne Berserkers and Tyranids have this.
There is only one 'fight' and that is the fight phase. The word fight is not used anywhere else in that section except the headline.
In order to fight you need to be within 1" of an enemy at the start of the close combat phase, or you need to have charged that turn. Furfilling those requierments starts a whole chain containing: Pile in, make attacks, make wounds, followed by saves, and then you consolidate or pile in towards the closest enemy.All of this is contained within fight.
Khorne Berserkers, the tyranid fight again stratagem (perhaps other stratagems as well) allow them to perform the whole chain mentioned above. The special rule, like the khorne berserker abilaty and tyranid stratgem provides and alternative entry into the fight chain, besides the 1" or charged requierments. This includes the 3" piling in, followed by the rest.
If you do not agree with this then please look to the fight phase and point to what the wording 'fight again' means. My interpetation, as well as all others interpetation, is that it refers to the whole fight chain. It would be different of the wording was 'make aditional attacks as if it was the fight phase' but it is not.
It is not unlikly that word of the phoenix works the same way. If you want to argue please quote the spesific rule that contradicts it because a vague 'that does not sound right' does not hold up to how they are worded in comparison to how the fight phase is worded in the rules.
I mean it should generally be in the rullings forum, but on the other hand it does affect the power of many DE units... this is the last i'll say on the matter here anyway as untill i can poke GW into saying something official on the matter i'm tired of argueing in circles.
You touched on the entire crucx of the matter. The Fight phase has 6 steps, step 1 is choose a unit - charged or within 1". Does any power / stratagem / datasheet ability that says "fight as if the fight phase" replace step 1 - chose unit, thats the entire crux of the debate. If yes, then you can pile in (and potentially consolidate after "attacking" thin air to 6" if your only goal is to get a unit locked in meele anyway) if no, the attempt fizzles / the unit is not a valid target... and we can argue thill Vect wakes up one morning and decides he's found Jesus on the answer as neither interpretations are objectively wrong ... at this point it either works how your opponent / TO says it works or it works how you can browbeat your opponent into it working.
What does 'Fight again' or 'Fight' refer to except 'Choose a unit to fight with' that starts the whole chain squence.' Note the " A fight is resolved in the following steps: "
Spoiler:
5. FIGHT PHASE
Carnage engulfs the battlefield as the warring armies tear each other apart.
FIGHT SEQUENCE
1.Choose unit to fight with
2.Pile in up to 3"
3.Choose targets
4.Choose melee weapon
5.Resolve close combat attacks
• Make hit roll
• Make wound roll
• Enemy allocates wound
• Enemy makes saving throw
• Inflict damage
6.Consolidate up to 3"
1. Choose Unit to Fight With
Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase. This includes all units, not just those controlled by the player whose turn it is. All units that charged this turn fight first. The player whose turn it is picks the order in which these units fight. After all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is) until all eligible units on both sides have fought once each. No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase. If one player runs out of eligible units, the other player completes all of their remaining fights, one unit after another. A fight is resolved in the following steps:
2. Pile In
You may move each model in the unit up to 3" – this move can be in any direction so long as the model ends the move closer to the nearest enemy model.
3. Choose Targets
First, you must pick the target unit, or units, for the attacks. To target an enemy unit, the attacking model must either be within 1" of that unit, or within 1" of another model from its own unit that is itself within 1" of that enemy unit. This represents the unit fighting in two ranks. Models that charged this turn can only target enemy units that they charged in the previous phase. If a model can make more than one close combat attack (see right), it can split them between eligible target units as you wish. Similarly if a unit contains more than one model, each can target a different enemy unit. In either case, declare how you will split the unit’s close combat attacks before any dice are rolled, and resolve all attacks against one target before moving on to the next.
Number of Attacks
The number of close combat attacks a model makes against its target is determined by its Attacks characteristic. You roll one dice for each close combat attack being made. For example, if a model has an Attacks characteristic of 2, it can make 2 close combat attacks and you can therefore roll 2 dice.
4. Choose Melee Weapon
Each time a model makes a close combat attack, it uses a melee weapon – the weapons a model is equipped with are described on its datasheet. If a datasheet does not list any melee weapons, the model is assumed to fight with a close combat weapon, which has the following profile: If a model has more than one melee weapon, choose which it will use before rolling the dice. If a model has more than one melee weapon and can make several close combat attacks, it can split its attacks between these weapons however you wish – declare how you will divide the attacks before any dice are rolled.
5. Resolve Close Combat Attacks
Close combat attacks can be made one at a time, or in some cases you can roll the dice for a number of attacks together. The attack sequence for making close combat attacks is identical to that used for shooting attacks except you use the model’s Weapon Skill characteristic instead of its Ballistic Skill to make hit rolls.
6. Consolidate
You may move each model in the unit up to 3" – this move can be in any direction so long as the model ends the move closer to the nearest enemy model.
What does 'Fight again' or 'Fight' refer to except 'Choose a unit to fight with' that starts the whole chain squence.' Note the " A fight is resolved in the following steps: "
Spoiler:
5. FIGHT PHASE
Carnage engulfs the battlefield as the warring armies tear each other apart.
FIGHT SEQUENCE
1.Choose unit to fight with
2.Pile in up to 3"
3.Choose targets
4.Choose melee weapon
5.Resolve close combat attacks
• Make hit roll
• Make wound roll
• Enemy allocates wound
• Enemy makes saving throw
• Inflict damage
6.Consolidate up to 3"
1. Choose Unit to Fight With
Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase. This includes all units, not just those controlled by the player whose turn it is. All units that charged this turn fight first. The player whose turn it is picks the order in which these units fight. After all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is) until all eligible units on both sides have fought once each. No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase. If one player runs out of eligible units, the other player completes all of their remaining fights, one unit after another. A fight is resolved in the following steps:
2. Pile In
You may move each model in the unit up to 3" – this move can be in any direction so long as the model ends the move closer to the nearest enemy model.
3. Choose Targets
First, you must pick the target unit, or units, for the attacks. To target an enemy unit, the attacking model must either be within 1" of that unit, or within 1" of another model from its own unit that is itself within 1" of that enemy unit. This represents the unit fighting in two ranks. Models that charged this turn can only target enemy units that they charged in the previous phase. If a model can make more than one close combat attack (see right), it can split them between eligible target units as you wish. Similarly if a unit contains more than one model, each can target a different enemy unit. In either case, declare how you will split the unit’s close combat attacks before any dice are rolled, and resolve all attacks against one target before moving on to the next.
Number of Attacks
The number of close combat attacks a model makes against its target is determined by its Attacks characteristic. You roll one dice for each close combat attack being made. For example, if a model has an Attacks characteristic of 2, it can make 2 close combat attacks and you can therefore roll 2 dice.
4. Choose Melee Weapon
Each time a model makes a close combat attack, it uses a melee weapon – the weapons a model is equipped with are described on its datasheet. If a datasheet does not list any melee weapons, the model is assumed to fight with a close combat weapon, which has the following profile: If a model has more than one melee weapon, choose which it will use before rolling the dice. If a model has more than one melee weapon and can make several close combat attacks, it can split its attacks between these weapons however you wish – declare how you will divide the attacks before any dice are rolled.
5. Resolve Close Combat Attacks
Close combat attacks can be made one at a time, or in some cases you can roll the dice for a number of attacks together. The attack sequence for making close combat attacks is identical to that used for shooting attacks except you use the model’s Weapon Skill characteristic instead of its Ballistic Skill to make hit rolls.
6. Consolidate
You may move each model in the unit up to 3" – this move can be in any direction so long as the model ends the move closer to the nearest enemy model.
Well ... beyond the usual inconsistencies like "Select a HERETIC ASTARTES KHORNE INFANTRY or BIKER unit – that unit CAN immediately fight again." -- "This order can only be issued to units that are within 1" of an enemy unit. The ordered unit IMMEDIATELY FIGHTS as if it were the Fight phase." --- "The unit CAN fight as if it were the Fight phase <--- In the case of CSM and Ynnari i've bolded CAN as in, is able to, as in got from step 1 to step 6, step one, is your unit within 1" of an enemy model or has charged? no? well the ability fizzles. In the case of IG there is no possible conflict (a case for RAI). The one conflict i can see is IF a unit has fought, wiped out a unit and consolidated is still >1" away from enemy units, can it use "fight twice?" as it HAS actually charged previouslly. The Stratagems / Soul Burst don't actually say "chose a unit to fight" they say "choose a unit [..] CAN(?) it fight?"
Same thing with Khorne Berserkers, the datasheet says the unit "CAN" fight twice in each fight phase. As in are the requirements (step 1, choose unit) to fight fullfilled or not? Again the ONE problem i have is what if the unit had charged previouslly? Also consider
Spoiler:
Q: If a unit starts the Fight phase within 1" of an enemy unit but, due to casualties suffered and models removed, it is no longer within 1" of any enemy units later in the phase, can it still be chosen to fight?
A: No, unless the unit in question charged this turn it cannot be chosen to fight if there are no longer enemy units within 1". Note that it is possible – if heavy enough casualties have been incurred – that even a unit that did charge may not be close enough, even after a pile-in move, to make close combat attacks. It can still, of course, consolidate.
Indicating the the unit is NOT a valid target if not within 1" at the time of being activated
And
Spoiler:
Q: If a unit piles in or consolidates into
a unit it didn’t declare a charge against
in the preceding Charge phase, does that
unit get to fire Overwatch?
A: No.
Remember though that units that charged can
only make close combat attacks against units
that they declared the charge against, even if
pile-in moves, etc. bring them within 1" of a
different unit.
Indicated that all else failling and "CAN fight" means "ignore step 1: choose unit" and you pile into an enemy unit, it still couldn't swing (if it just arrived via transport / deep strike)
If the unit charged that turn it can't fight targets it didn't declare a charge against. Nothing in any of those Strategems grants permission otherwise.
Tactical advice, don't base your strategy arounding ignoring core rules when the ability you are using doesn't grant permission to ignore said rule.
Niiai wrote: Then take it into the rules section. This is not the place for it. Discussions like this bring on to much baggage in a thread like this.
Yep, moved tho i'd really like this question put to rest allready as it IS pertinent for a "transport" based army. Aaaaand moving on to other shenanigans because.... duh. Can a stat every be modified under 0? I know a 1 is allways a failure but i'm talking leadership here. I'm curious if a "LD bomb" style list would be viable. Chaos could do this but chaos has to either do it with squishy Night Lords Infantry + expensive FW models. DE could do it with units you'd want to take normally.
So it's like 3 from Obssesion, 1 From killing the WL ("easily done via essoteric kill from afar), 2 From a hemlock, 1 from Horrify ... a Wraithseer could add 1 for a -8. Anything else? If this was applyed to say a unit with 6 LD, would it hit -2 or 0? Also Shadow specter force unit to trait morale rolls as "melta" and i think incubi or Drazhar make 1 aditional model flee? (i have a brief flash of seeing something regarding to the DE codex along the lines of "each time a model flees an aditonal one does" as in... double morale casualties? Could just be how the writer was hastilly translating it or could just be a fever dream...
For the sake of anyone else who may have a similar question, it may be worthwhile to start a new thread in YMDC and continue the discussion there. Thanks!
From a Spanish version of the Codex, Mandrakes now to 1d3 MW in 6+ to wound. But maybe this is an error, I don't know, the spanish versions of the codex are prone to that.
Wow. 1D3 mortal wounds as opposed to 1 is quite strong. 2 mortal wounds on averadge from 9 shots averadge is quite good.
A unit of 5 puts out 10 shots, having 2 mortal wounds in there can be good at popping in from reserves and finishing something of. I am sure some Ynari will try to soulburst a unit of 10 to lay down some mortal wounds.
Blackie wrote: Of course having more options is better than having less. Some options to give more speed to the HQs would be nice, indeed, I just think that there were (are?) lots of other things to fix that had priority and were more important.
I disagree - with the new rules requiring us to include even more HQs, they should really have been given more priority.
It would also be nice to not have an absolutely pitiful choice of HQs. Cult gets a Succubus or a Succubus character. Coven gets a Haemonculs or a Haemonculus character. Kabal gets an Archon or to eat .
With so little choice already, I don't think it's unreasonable to have some actual mobility options for them.
Blackie wrote: Well it depends on how many coven units you want to field. I'd like to field two units of grotesques in raiders and at least 3 talos. Maybe even something else. Two haemys are needed to buff them all.
Fair enough.
Blackie wrote: I use all of those units mostly as a tarpit, I don't think they need an HQ to buff them. It would be nice, sure, but necessary? Definitely not, all those units can work well without an HQ nearby.
This is the kind of thing I mean, though. We're already locked into what we can't do.
Lets say you want to use those units as tarpits no matter what. Okay, fine. But what about someone who would prefer to use them as hammers, using a HQ to both grant them rerolls and add some additional punch?
In terms of units working without HQs nearby, this kinda goes back to my original point. I get that we don't want our army to fall apart without HQs nearby, but at the moment it really seems like our HQs are surplus to their own army.
), and it's just the codex preview.
Just because you don't have to option not to take it, doesn't make it free. Do you think iron halos are free on captains too?
.