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fresus wrote:
Crucible of malediction is pretty good, especially at 2CP. The others are okay I guess.
A bit sad that they didn't show any way to increase the HQs' mobility. At this point I think it's very unlikely (especially since people who had the codex in hands didn't say anything about it).
Overall it looks like a great codex, with lots of flavor. We'll have to see the individual point costs for competitiveness, but for casual play it's full of fun ways to play.

Crucible is by far the worst of the stratagems they've shown off. It's gone from a mediocre once per game ability to a mediocre once per game ability that costs 2CP. If anything it's reduced the armies anti-psyker ability.

I think in general we've seen a lot of good stuff this week but 2/3rds of the units in the army needed stat changes and points reductions to be remotely usable and they've haven't shown us much of that, so the overall quality of the codex remains to be seen.

Lawrence from Tabletop Tactics is aiming to get a batrep with the new codex out tonight at midnight UK time and has hinted on Facebook that he made lots of use of Reavers, I think this will give us a much better idea of where the codex stands than the previews have.

Errrr.... what? so Crucible is not a piece of wargear anymore but a 2CP stratagem... once per battle?.... WHAT?! I'd like to say "hey this must mean Haemonculi... and my extension HQs maybe? are much better so they had to knock that 'powerfull' extra bit off" but the leak / preview touts it "5 of our favorite stratagems" erm.... what?! Like if it was a <Coven> unit maybe but stratagem specifically says Haemonculus... unless you're going to tell me "Twisted beyond reason - The haemonculus is such a grotesque and twisted creature to be near soulless disturbing nearby psyckers ability to focus. Can deny once per phase" ... NO dammit... wtf?!

I meeeeeean, yeah ok, your getting CP from patrol detachment , you could run like 9 Haemos and 9 Wracks and yes that's.... kinda gona ruin GK's day , maybe some other armies just form sheer volume of attacks (and Tide of 'traitors') but..... REALY?!

I like Crucible as a strategem. Instead of having to take it as wargear (which it used to be) before you know if you need it or not, you are free to use it in games you need to, and not otherwise. It's going to be worth the 2CP in the right situation.

 Fenris-77 wrote:
I like Crucible as a strategem. Instead of having to take it as wargear (which it used to be) before you know if you need it or not, you are free to use it in games you need to, and not otherwise. It's going to be worth the 2CP in the right situation.

But it's.... free?

fresus wrote:
Crucible of malediction is pretty good, especially at 2CP. The others are okay I guess.
A bit sad that they didn't show any way to increase the HQs' mobility. At this point I think it's very unlikely (especially since people who had the codex in hands didn't say anything about it).
Overall it looks like a great codex, with lots of flavor. We'll have to see the individual point costs for competitiveness, but for casual play it's full of fun ways to play.

No CoM is currently free and almost worthless, i have used it WELL over 20x and it NEVER has been worth a point value, let alone 2CP. And that is me having 2 Haemonculus using it in most of my games.

Soul-trap is good b.c now i dont need to take the wargear for the 5-10pts (or w/e it is, i never took it b.c its not worth it), but having the ability to gain the Soul Trap on any of my Archons for CP is much better than spending points on 2-4 of them

Drazhar is an improvement for sure, but if he is still 140pts its still not worth it, i can just take 2 units of Incubi for same cost and still have double the attacks, but if you wanted a "character" just take 3 Archons, or 2 Succubi, more wounds, more attacks, more buffs.

Agents of Vect is a must, but at the same time a tax, we are force to take a tax to get something good, when we already are forced to take lots of HQ's/Troops to gain CP, IMO if you are playing 6 Patrols you will take this, but if you are playing more Heavy/Fast/Elite slot armies you wont be taking this.


Over all, CoM is completely worthless now and some of the others have potential, but without seeing points its hard to tell.

poweroftwo wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
I like Crucible as a strategem. Instead of having to take it as wargear (which it used to be) before you know if you need it or not, you are free to use it in games you need to, and not otherwise. It's going to be worth the 2CP in the right situation.

But it's.... free?

It's not free Just because you don't have to option not to take it, doesn't make it free. Do you think iron halos are free on captains too?

 Red Corsair wrote:

poweroftwo wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
I like Crucible as a strategem. Instead of having to take it as wargear (which it used to be) before you know if you need it or not, you are free to use it in games you need to, and not otherwise. It's going to be worth the 2CP in the right situation.

But it's.... free?

It's not free Just because you don't have to option not to take it, doesn't make it free. Do you think iron halos are free on captains too?

Have you actually used it? as someone that has many times,............. its free, its never done more than 4 wounds (and that was only b.c there was 7 psychers,3/7 rolled 4+, 1 did 2 MW 2 did 1 MW each), after well over 20 uses, its not worth any points.

If GW honestly thinks its worth points, then they are clueless.

Edit: Lets say we should give it a points value, IMO 5 is perfect, GW might think its worth 10pts. Is 10pts to you worth 2cp and a 1 time use regardless of the amount of Haemonculus you have? For a niche item that only works on a couple armies and only a 50/50 chance?

If CoM goes to a strat and the haemonculus gets something better to replace it (A different ability, new wargear options, etc) then I'm fine with this.

In my eyes, from what we've seen the army is about 60-75% of the way to fully functional. Both big things that are still up in the air are related to HQs:

1) Is there any compelling reason to want multiples of any given HQ type? As they stand, our HQs are pure tax Functional Wych Cult units make one Succubus usable, especially at a reduced price, as a buff machine.the WD-confirmed reroll 1s to hit aura allows us to take one naked archon just as a gunline booster (For Ravagers and the like). Index Haemie you can make decent use of one. But we must have a reason to want multiples if we ever want to consider ourselves outside of our little bubble of 3 patrols with 1 Wych 1 Kabal 1 Haemie.

2) HQs need a mobility solution. Bikes/wings whatever are looking increasingly unlikely, so I am hoping for 1 additional capacity in each transport. I'd live with that. The current situation is just bizarre and sad.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Soul-trap is good b.c now i dont need to take the wargear for the 5-10pts (or w/e it is, i never took it b.c its not worth it), but having the ability to gain the Soul Trap on any of my Archons for CP is much better than spending points on 2-4 of them

I disagree - I'd far rather spend a few points to buy Soul Trap on the relevant Archons in my army, than have to pay valuable CP every time I want to use it. Especially given how pathetic the effect is.

Also, I don't understand why this is even a Stratagem. Does every Archon carry a Soul Trap but just completely forget to use it unless prompted? Are our Archons suffering from Alzheimer's or something?

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

poweroftwo wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
I like Crucible as a strategem. Instead of having to take it as wargear (which it used to be) before you know if you need it or not, you are free to use it in games you need to, and not otherwise. It's going to be worth the 2CP in the right situation.

But it's.... free?

It's not free Just because you don't have to option not to take it, doesn't make it free. Do you think iron halos are free on captains too?

Have you actually used it? as someone that has many times,............. its free, its never done more than 4 wounds (and that was only b.c there was 7 psychers,3/7 rolled 4+, 1 did 2 MW 2 did 1 MW each), after well over 20 uses, its not worth any points.

If GW honestly thinks its worth points, then they are clueless.

Edit: Lets say we should give it a points value, IMO 5 is perfect, GW might think its worth 10pts. Is 10pts to you worth 2cp and a 1 time use regardless of the amount of Haemonculus you have? For a niche item that only works on a couple armies and only a 50/50 chance?

Yea, I have also used shredders several times, they do nothing as well. Are they therefore free? Nope.

the_scotsman wrote:
If CoM goes to a strat and the haemonculus gets something better to replace it (A different ability, new wargear options, etc) then I'm fine with this.

It would be nice if they could heal themselves and/or nearby Coven units.

the_scotsman wrote:

In my eyes, from what we've seen the army is about 60-75% of the way to fully functional. Both big things that are still up in the air are related to HQs:

1) Is there any compelling reason to want multiples of any given HQ type? As they stand, our HQs are pure tax Functional Wych Cult units make one Succubus usable, especially at a reduced price, as a buff machine.the WD-confirmed reroll 1s to hit aura allows us to take one naked archon just as a gunline booster (For Ravagers and the like). Index Haemie you can make decent use of one. But we must have a reason to want multiples if we ever want to consider ourselves outside of our little bubble of 3 patrols with 1 Wych 1 Kabal 1 Haemie.

2) HQs need a mobility solution. Bikes/wings whatever are looking increasingly unlikely, so I am hoping for 1 additional capacity in each transport. I'd live with that. The current situation is just bizarre and sad.

Agreed entirely on #2.

As for #1, if they've not been given any mobility options, then I think even the first HQ will be dead weight - let alone additional ones. With mobility, you could have Archons buffing different components of your army . . . and wondering why they can't buff units standing on the transports in full view. I guess it will come down to how much of the anti-synergy in our army has been removed (if any). I'm guessing none.

Well, today's entry is worrisome. Strict and heavy nerf to the Haemonculus toolkit, and then the Archon's soul trap, which should just be innate at this point, costing a CP and being pretty bad. These guys better be getting some serious buffs, because these stratagems do nothing for their huge problems.

 vipoid wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Soul-trap is good b.c now i dont need to take the wargear for the 5-10pts (or w/e it is, i never took it b.c its not worth it), but having the ability to gain the Soul Trap on any of my Archons for CP is much better than spending points on 2-4 of them

I disagree - I'd far rather spend a few points to buy Soul Trap on the relevant Archons in my army, than have to pay valuable CP every time I want to use it. Especially given how pathetic the effect is.

Also, I don't understand why this is even a Stratagem. Does every Archon carry a Soul Trap but just completely forget to use it unless prompted? Are our Archons suffering from Alzheimer's or something?

But how often does it come into an effect? Ive never had an Archon kill a character lol.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

poweroftwo wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
I like Crucible as a strategem. Instead of having to take it as wargear (which it used to be) before you know if you need it or not, you are free to use it in games you need to, and not otherwise. It's going to be worth the 2CP in the right situation.

But it's.... free?

It's not free Just because you don't have to option not to take it, doesn't make it free. Do you think iron halos are free on captains too?

Have you actually used it? as someone that has many times,............. its free, its never done more than 4 wounds (and that was only b.c there was 7 psychers,3/7 rolled 4+, 1 did 2 MW 2 did 1 MW each), after well over 20 uses, its not worth any points.

If GW honestly thinks its worth points, then they are clueless.

Edit: Lets say we should give it a points value, IMO 5 is perfect, GW might think its worth 10pts. Is 10pts to you worth 2cp and a 1 time use regardless of the amount of Haemonculus you have? For a niche item that only works on a couple armies and only a 50/50 chance?

Yea, I have also used shredders several times, they do nothing as well. Are they therefore free? Nope.

No but i think shredders needs to be 2pts, so we agree that shredders are trash, and if you read what i said, it you had a points value on it, make it 5pts for CoM. Also, shredders could be strong against Infantry, S6 re-roll wounds isnt bad, they just need to be cheaper

 Amishprn86 wrote:
But how often does it come into an effect? Ive never had an Archon kill a character lol.

I can't say it was common, but I did get an Archon to S6+ a few times in 7th with the Soul Trap and a Huskblade.

It was also just a nice way to differentiate HQs a bit. As it stands, Archons don't have a single piece of wargear that isn't a weapon, which is pretty depressing when you consider what their arsenal was like in 5th.

At the very least, I'd rather have the option to pay for it in the army-building step and risk not using it, rather than never ever using it because its effect is pitiful and every use costs valuable CP.

 vipoid wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
If CoM goes to a strat and the haemonculus gets something better to replace it (A different ability, new wargear options, etc) then I'm fine with this.

It would be nice if they could heal themselves and/or nearby Coven units.

the_scotsman wrote:

In my eyes, from what we've seen the army is about 60-75% of the way to fully functional. Both big things that are still up in the air are related to HQs:

1) Is there any compelling reason to want multiples of any given HQ type? As they stand, our HQs are pure tax Functional Wych Cult units make one Succubus usable, especially at a reduced price, as a buff machine.the WD-confirmed reroll 1s to hit aura allows us to take one naked archon just as a gunline booster (For Ravagers and the like). Index Haemie you can make decent use of one. But we must have a reason to want multiples if we ever want to consider ourselves outside of our little bubble of 3 patrols with 1 Wych 1 Kabal 1 Haemie.

2) HQs need a mobility solution. Bikes/wings whatever are looking increasingly unlikely, so I am hoping for 1 additional capacity in each transport. I'd live with that. The current situation is just bizarre and sad.

Agreed entirely on #2.

As for #1, if they've not been given any mobility options, then I think even the first HQ will be dead weight - let alone additional ones. With mobility, you could have Archons buffing different components of your army . . . and wondering why they can't buff units standing on the transports in full view. I guess it will come down to how much of the anti-synergy in our army has been removed (if any). I'm guessing none.

The Archon's buff is quasi-redundant on transported units anyway for the most part thanks to Flayed Skull bonus. The only units that really want to have a new Archon units are Ravagers (and they really want it) and a foot archon can reasonably keep up with the small amount of movement that a couple Ravagers are going to want to make to get targets. So if I got no transports, I can justify 1 archon just to babysit my ravagers at whatever his (I assume lower) point cost will be.

The succubus doesn't really need to buff units from a transport because when you want to use her buff, she's getting out of the transport to engage. But her buff is of limited usefulness really only good for that first initial engagement, and then past that point you're either mopping up or your melee units are dead. So I can justify 1 succubus (especially as she gets a warlord trait)

Haemonculus has plenty of units that work (or have to work) just trundling down the field, and he can keep up with them on foot. but again, you're probably only going to need one of his aura.

if GW just goes for lazy buffs on the HQs like point costs, but keeps them relatively useless and doesn't correct the REASON why they're very hard/awkward to use...then I think we're probably going to be locked into the 3-patrol box and we'll have a fairly monobuild list structure. But if they get just a tiny bit more creative and our HQs inch over the line to average, the unit buffs we've seen and had teased IMO are enough to make DE a solidly midtier, balanced faction outside of the ever present yoke of Ynnari.

Though I've already noticed a couple of truly stupid Ynnari/soup combos. Overwatch ignoring wyches sliding into combat and casually making 303 attacks in a single player turn thanks to GW stratagem spaghetti code being my favorite one so far, but also LD-nuking goofiness combining all the aeldari factions with the new Haemonculus coven subfaction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ah well, I guess all there is to do is wait 2-3 days for some wonderfully less scrupulous person to get their hand on a prerelease codex and do a full or partial info dump.

Anyone....?

Anyone...?

Hikaru........?

 Red Corsair wrote:

poweroftwo wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
I like Crucible as a strategem. Instead of having to take it as wargear (which it used to be) before you know if you need it or not, you are free to use it in games you need to, and not otherwise. It's going to be worth the 2CP in the right situation.

But it's.... free?

It's not free Just because you don't have to option not to take it, doesn't make it free. Do you think iron halos are free on captains too?

Actually it literally was free in the index, you always had the option of not taking it and it never cost you any points when you did. Did that ever make any sense? No, but they never made an attempt to errata it.

I always assumed it was in the base cost though. It's like weapons that cost zero points for certain models like the whirlwind missile launcher.

Either way, we can all agree that the biggest questions are still unanswered. HQ's (a few others as well) and most importantly weapon profiles and costs as well as availability will make or break this codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Luckily, reviews should be up tonight since this thing goes on preorder tonight at midnight.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Either way, we can all agree that the biggest questions are still unanswered. HQ's (a few others as well) and most importantly weapon profiles and costs as well as availability will make or break this codex.

I think it's fair to say that most of what we've seen so far has been icing. We've yet to see the actual cake.

 vipoid wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Either way, we can all agree that the biggest questions are still unanswered. HQ's (a few others as well) and most importantly weapon profiles and costs as well as availability will make or break this codex.

I think it's fair to say that most of what we've seen so far has been icing. We've yet to see the actual cake.

The two concrete things we got were Wych improvements (significant as they were potentially the lock behind which 1/3 of our traits, relics, etc would have sat, if they hadn't seen significant improvement) and Blaster damage doubling, improving a large range of units. Extra bonus point for knowing I can put some more blasters in a Kabalite squad.

Otherwise...yep, let's see some reviews.

the_scotsman wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Either way, we can all agree that the biggest questions are still unanswered. HQ's (a few others as well) and most importantly weapon profiles and costs as well as availability will make or break this codex.

I think it's fair to say that most of what we've seen so far has been icing. We've yet to see the actual cake.

The two concrete things we got were Wych improvements (significant as they were potentially the lock behind which 1/3 of our traits, relics, etc would have sat, if they hadn't seen significant improvement) and Blaster damage doubling, improving a large range of units. Extra bonus point for knowing I can put some more blasters in a Kabalite squad.

Otherwise...yep, let's see some reviews.

I'll be interested to see the TTT battle report tonight with them, hopefully we'll get some more solid info.

the_scotsman wrote:
Extra bonus point for knowing I can put some more blasters in a Kabalite squad.

Do we know any more details about this?

2 Blasters per 10 will be disappointing - especially if Trueborn are gone.

 vipoid wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Extra bonus point for knowing I can put some more blasters in a Kabalite squad.

Do we know any more details about this?

2 Blasters per 10 will be disappointing - especially if Trueborn are gone.

I have a fear this will happen, b.c many other units did that as well, and DE kit only comes with 1 blaster

Would not be surprised if it were 2 blasters in 10, many kits are "the number of special weapons in the box" like Skitarii.

the_scotsman wrote:
Would not be surprised if it were 2 blasters in 10, many kits are "the number of special weapons in the box" like Skitarii.

I hope not. That's just pitiful.

Do you people think its better to run wyches in 5 man teams in venoms or put 10 in a raider?

Was thinking of running 2 or 3 five man teams to just tie up enemy shooty units.

 ThePie wrote:
Do you people think its better to run wyches in 5 man teams in venoms or put 10 in a raider?

Was thinking of running 2 or 3 five man teams to just tie up enemy shooty units.

Honestly, to early to tell, but depending on the stratagems, if there is a couple that highly buffs a wych unit you will want 1 large squad so it can effect the unit more. If you are using them as S4 infanty busters, 2x5 is better b.c you get the Sargent.

Scourge at least are definitely better. Everyone used them with Dark Lances in the index because of the D6 damage being vastly superior to the D3, making the -1 to hit penalty when moving/deep striking palitable, but since Blasters have the same damage without the movement penalty, are hopefully still 5pts cheaper than a DL and the Scourge themselves are getting cheaper this means that with just 1pt drop thats now 125pt squad instead of 150 for the same or even better damage output.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ThePie wrote:
Do you people think its better to run wyches in 5 man teams in venoms or put 10 in a raider?

Was thinking of running 2 or 3 five man teams to just tie up enemy shooty units.

Far too early to tell, we have no idea what changes if any there are to Wych Weapons or the distribution of combat drugs. They will determine how best it is to run the squad.

Hmm alright, i have been thinking about how to efficiently deal with both horde armies and space marine armies.

Marines can be dealt with disintregator cannons, but it's massed hordes like green tide im really worrying about.

 ThePie wrote:
Hmm alright, i have been thinking about how to efficiently deal with both horde armies and space marine armies.

Marines can be dealt with disintregator cannons, but it's massed hordes like green tide im really worrying about.

Depending on Raider costs, Splinter Racks and re-roll 1's to wound, Poison might be best, BUT also depending on Beasts and stratagems, its way to early to tell.

http://i65.tinypic.com/mahwdw.jpg

So, confirmation on 10 points as well as the general profile.