Blackie wrote:
Incubi can't deal with hordes, actually they really suffer hordes. They're quite good against elites instead.

The 3+ armor in invalidated by the T3 and the absence of any invuln. They don't have that many attacks to clear a 30 man squad, while they can be wiped out by the survivors even if incubi charged first.

I usually bring them in this edition, a squad of 5 in a venom. Quite effective if used like a scalpel, I think you need other assault units though otherwise it would be easy for the opponent to avoid them.

They're only about 18 pts per model. I mean it's not great but it's not bad. Why could i not do 2 units of 5 in a raider with 2 raiders full of them or something? I was more wanting a unit that was ok at killing hordes and decent or ok vs other units. I find a lot of the anti-horde probably doesn't have too much utility outside of killing hordes. Poisoned shooting for instance tends to bounce off 3+ armor esp. if the enemy jumps into cover for a 2+ save. Understand i'm saying poisoned shooting can suck rather badly in many cases and be alright in others. My point with incubi is if i bring a 'take all comers' list and end up fighting lots of power armor or tanks then at least the incubi can cut through each and not be completely useless.

They aren't cheap at all, 18ppm with the necessity of a transport means an expensive unit.

10 incubi in a raider are 295 points and they can't clear a 30 man squad of boyz for example, actually they fail to kill even half the squad on average, but the surviving 15+ orks can kill 6+ incubi in return. With some buffs (weirdboyz, waaagh banner, ghaz) they can even clear all those 10 incubi with average rolls in return, and we're talking about the case in which incubi attack first and assuming that none of them dies in overwatch.

30 orks are only 180 points and many ork players field 180+ of them (or their equivalents like stormboyz or kommandos).

If you want to go with raiders I'd suggest taking mixed units, like 5 incubi and 5 kabalites/wyches in each raider. Or maybe 2x5 incubi in 2 venoms.

5 or 10 incubi are quite TAC though, I usually bring a unit of 5 anyway. But poisoned shots, while not particularly effective, are quite TAC as well, you need them even if you bring incubi.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Zuri Prime wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Incubi can't deal with hordes, actually they really suffer hordes. They're quite good against elites instead.

The 3+ armor in invalidated by the T3 and the absence of any invuln. They don't have that many attacks to clear a 30 man squad, while they can be wiped out by the survivors even if incubi charged first.

I usually bring them in this edition, a squad of 5 in a venom. Quite effective if used like a scalpel, I think you need other assault units though otherwise it would be easy for the opponent to avoid them.

This right here. I'm not sure what can slaughter hordes for the DE besides massed poison shots. I run into the problem that my opponents either weather my five man squad to kill them with massed melee attacks, or just fall back and wipe them out that way. If anything they're a nice distraction to have to screen for a shooty army.

If we get a deepstrike stratagem in the next Codex I'll probably run a ten man squad to free up a venom/raider for something else.

DE doesnt have a good Horde killing option sadly, poison vs infantry (especially T3) is terrible

the_scotsman wrote:
Heck, if we get the webway stratagem I'm running 20 Kabalites with 2 Splinter Cannons and 2 Shredders, just to jump out and say boo at hordes of guardsmen.

This isnt like CWE with Guardians where they are T4 and 6 will rend, poison isnt good unless its T5+ and then your killing elites not infantry. Your talking about 186pts to kill12 Guardsman's, that 186pts out in the open as T3 5+/6+++ that only killed 12 5-6pt dudes. 15-16 if they are 6+ armor.


The problem with DE is that they are meant to shoot and Melee, but we cant get to melee safely at all.

how can we not get to melee safely? Raiders are just about perfect for that. You can use them to soak up all overwatch and subdivide the enemy unit however you like to prevent counterattack coming to our flimsier units.

The problem with our melee is we have nothing that does any damage. Practically nothing that will ever wound on better than a 4+, nothing with good multi-damage, and most of our units have pretty low attacks.

I'm talking about Beasts, Hellions, and Grots, all has a problem, some are to costly, some cant get ot melee as safely, others are 1 turn wonders that can get shot off in 1 turn, or needs to much support.

Ive been doing great with just all kabals and spamming MSU Raiders/Ravagers/Beasts and 2 Haemonculus (they are better in melee than Succubus for the most part sadly).

Mandrakes are very good as well, i have 20, i need to try out all of them in a game rather than just 2x5.

Well, luckily now there's WWP if you want to run Grots. wait til turn 2 and you ahve something like a combined chance to get in of 74%.

Hellions..I don't think there's any helping unless they get a points adjustment. T3 5+ W1 with two splinter shots and a crappy weapon is just....so ludicrous. they could have a half-dozen special rules slathered on and theyd still be worthless because every single gun in existence is points efficient shooting at them at 17PPM.

But thats what i mean, we dont have good AI, there is problems with all of them and the few that are dedicated to kill infantry (and i mean kill not "tie up") are either to costly or cant get into combat reliably .

Wyches, Incubi, Wracks can all get there, but they are not good at killing infantry.

If your melee killing you not only need to get there, but take overwatch (I know vehicles take it, but the point is they get to shoot overwatch), and the fact that they can fallback+shoot, that melee unit better kill a lot.

If a melee unit cant even kill its worth... then what is the point of taking them? Some melee units are key to a stratagey, i can understand that, like a small basic Reaver unit to tie up vehicles, that has utility, but i'm talking about dedicated AI, DE's AI is trash.

We just need to shoot a lot and try to stay alive with maybe a few cheap CC units.

Well i had multiple ideas to handle hordes and honestly i think i might go back to one i thought about before. Costs a lot of money but is insanely cheap in points.

So possibly use razorwing flocks for anti-horde. It will have issues vs toughness 4 for sure but it has plenty of wounds, it's cheap and if you go msu (3-6 per unit) it should help vs the low leadership. You can also have a beastmaster for leadership buff and re-rolls to hit.

Seriously it's really cheap in points. Even if you take like 24 of them it only comes out to less than 170 pts. The amount of damage vs toughness 3 is also pretty good for its points (for dark eldar anyway), it can fly and it has 12" movement.

If those 24 dudes should get into combat they do like 21 wounds before saves vs toughness 3 and still cost less than 170 pts.

Just so you know it's about 33 USD for 2 razorwing flocks so yeah if you're rich and like to show you have a lot of money go ahead and do it.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Well i had multiple ideas to handle hordes and honestly i think i might go back to one i thought about before. Costs a lot of money but is insanely cheap in points.

So possibly use razorwing flocks for anti-horde. It will have issues vs toughness 4 for sure but it has plenty of wounds, it's cheap and if you go msu (3-6 per unit) it should help vs the low leadership. You can also have a beastmaster for leadership buff and re-rolls to hit.

Seriously it's really cheap in points. Even if you take like 24 of them it only comes out to less than 170 pts. The amount of damage vs toughness 3 is also pretty good for its points (for dark eldar anyway), it can fly and it has 12" movement.

If those 24 dudes should get into combat they do like 21 wounds before saves vs toughness 3 and still cost less than 170 pts.

Yes, Razorwing Flocks used to be great. But they got FAQ'd early on in 8th to cost 14 points apiece.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Well i had multiple ideas to handle hordes and honestly i think i might go back to one i thought about before. Costs a lot of money but is insanely cheap in points.

So possibly use razorwing flocks for anti-horde. It will have issues vs toughness 4 for sure but it has plenty of wounds, it's cheap and if you go msu (3-6 per unit) it should help vs the low leadership. You can also have a beastmaster for leadership buff and re-rolls to hit.

Seriously it's really cheap in points. Even if you take like 24 of them it only comes out to less than 170 pts. The amount of damage vs toughness 3 is also pretty good for its points (for dark eldar anyway), it can fly and it has 12" movement.

If those 24 dudes should get into combat they do like 21 wounds before saves vs toughness 3 and still cost less than 170 pts.

Just so you know it's about 33 USD for 2 razorwing flocks so yeah if you're rich and like to show you have a lot of money go ahead and do it.

You seem to be using the pre- FAQ point cost. 24 razorwing flocks is double what you're planning on.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Well i had multiple ideas to handle hordes and honestly i think i might go back to one i thought about before. Costs a lot of money but is insanely cheap in points.

So possibly use razorwing flocks for anti-horde. It will have issues vs toughness 4 for sure but it has plenty of wounds, it's cheap and if you go msu (3-6 per unit) it should help vs the low leadership. You can also have a beastmaster for leadership buff and re-rolls to hit.

Seriously it's really cheap in points. Even if you take like 24 of them it only comes out to less than 170 pts. The amount of damage vs toughness 3 is also pretty good for its points (for dark eldar anyway), it can fly and it has 12" movement.

If those 24 dudes should get into combat they do like 21 wounds before saves vs toughness 3 and still cost less than 170 pts.

Yes, Razorwing Flocks used to be great. But they got FAQ'd early on in 8th to cost 14 points apiece.

God that's really obnoxious of GW. Seriously that would've helped us out considerably.

Its b.c players were using 200 as Ynnari with Yncarne and like 5 Beastmasters, it was almost unbeatable.

They still are worth a take imo.

Edit: Buy zombicide murder crows, its like 20$ for 15 of them, same size.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Its b.c players were using 200 as Ynnari with Yncarne and like 5 Beastmasters, it was almost unbeatable.

They still are worth a take imo.

Edit: Buy zombicide murder crows, its like 20$ for 15 of them, same size.

So basically they got nerfed because of multi-faction combos to an extent. Sigh. I haven't checked out as much of 8th as i should have. Is imperial super-friends still allowed? I'd imagine yes as they probably share the imperial keyword.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Its b.c players were using 200 as Ynnari with Yncarne and like 5 Beastmasters, it was almost unbeatable.

They still are worth a take imo.

Edit: Buy zombicide murder crows, its like 20$ for 15 of them, same size.

So basically they got nerfed because of multi-faction combos to an extent. Sigh. I haven't checked out as much of 8th as i should have. Is imperial super-friends still allowed? I'd imagine yes as they probably share the imperial keyword.

You didnt need to take them as Ynnari at all, Yncarne just made 3-4 units gain 6+++ and no Moral tests. It worked great with 4 Cronos and 5 Beastmasters and just an Archon for HQ due to Re-roll hits and 1's to wound from Cronos.

150 was easy to do with a small army, 150 was only 1000 points, thats 600 wounds and 1200 attacks re-roll hits/1's to wound with 12" Fly.

I personally still use 6-12 of them, they are great honestly, a 12" movement unit with large amounts of wounds and a large footprint can EASILY stop tanks, yeah its 168pts, but 2x6 units will stop vehicles. Ive shut down many vehicles with them, yes a Ravager could do damage to a vehicle over stopping them, but it cant do enough damage fast enough IMO compare to locking 2-3 vehicles down for 2 turns.

My lists normally are 4-5 Ravagers, 2x6 RWF, Voidbomber (no missiles) as a base, i've had a lot of success with this as a base.

Has anyone made any alternate clawed fiends? Was looking at crypt horrors, but wasnt sure if they were the right size or might look too much like grotesques.

Punisher23 wrote:
Has anyone made any alternate clawed fiends? Was looking at crypt horrors, but wasnt sure if they were the right size or might look too much like grotesques.

I just use my Hordes figures for fiends tbh. I've got an everblight big monster army, they look much more varied and impressive than the six nipple bugmonkeys.

Punisher23 wrote:
Has anyone made any alternate clawed fiends? Was looking at crypt horrors, but wasnt sure if they were the right size or might look too much like grotesques.

Yeah, AoS Crypt Horrors/Ghuls

Using spare talos bits and shaving down the face for the mask really brings them in line with dark eldar

What about sending 3 talos towards the enemy by a WWP? I think they will perform better than grots since they have a decent shooting a they are more durable. Still a 400ish points unit but it looks like a nice combo.

Is this even allowed? Or only infantries can use the portal? i don't have CA to check the rule.

Rule specifies infantry, bikers, and beasts. Could maybe be worth it to pop Toughness 3 bubble wraps. I'll check some math and some back, but I have a sneaking suspicion it won't be.

--edit--

I don't know what I was thinking. I did the math, offensively it's not even close to either of the good beasts + a beastmaster or just some Mandrakes.

If you value a T6 (T7 with Haemy) distraction carnifex that much? Go for it. But it won't do much in terms of output. You're talkin about 5 GEQ ish dead per Talos (usually lower) on average IF they make the charge.

If the output difference was smaller it might be worth it but I don't see it over Beastmaster + Fiends/Khymerae or just Mandrakes.

Vehicles and Monsters cannot use the Webway Portal stratagem. This makes sense, as in previous editions, Craftworld vehicles and monstrous creatures had deep strike rules and dark eldar vehicles and monsters did not.

wait, that's wrong...

Oh lol Talos can't use the drop anyway so I guess it's moot.

Since we're on the topic of Webway, I picked out a couple of units I think would be winners for Webway usage. Below is the math and my take to get us started. For the beasts, the math includes Beastmaster's damage output as well as the rerolls from him.

Mandrakes 190 pts / 15.85 wounds = 11.99 ppw
Khymerae + BM 180 pts / 15.66 wounds = 11.49 ppw
Clawed Fiends + BM 252 pts / 23.66 wounds = 10.65 ppw

I don't see why you'd ever drop Khymerae with the Webway stratagem. 5++ invuln is cool but you get that and -1 to hit with the Mandrakes, plus you don'tn rely on making the charge.

I do see an advantage to Clawed Fiends in the 2 damage. It will destroy TEQs and Primaris. Could be a nice counter-charge unit when Blood Angels, 1kSons, and Dark Angels get released, as I'm sure we'll see more deep-striking terminators. Also is a nice anti-Obliterator unit. I'm thinking my lists will now have 10x Mandrakes, a Beastmaster, and a max unit of Clawed Fiends.If I don't want to spend 3x Command points, I can always just run the Beastmaster up as I won't drop til turn 2 at the earliest anyway.

What are y'all's Webway candidates? Specifically, how would you use them?

....Am I nuts? Mandrakes already deep strike, right..? Have I been playing them wrong? I swear there is a rule that says "you can set them up in aerlindrach and then they show up 9" away".

Either way, my personal wwp units are going to be Hellions, Grotesques, Clawed Fiends, the occasional Haemonculus for games vs psyker heavy armies, Incubi maybe, Lelith Hesperax maybe. Depends on the situation.

 Chippen wrote:
Oh lol Talos can't use the drop anyway so I guess it's moot.

Since we're on the topic of Webway, I picked out a couple of units I think would be winners for Webway usage. Below is the math and my take to get us started. For the beasts, the math includes Beastmaster's damage output as well as the rerolls from him.

Mandrakes 190 pts / 15.85 wounds = 11.99 ppw
Khymerae + BM 180 pts / 15.66 wounds = 11.49 ppw
Clawed Fiends + BM 252 pts / 23.66 wounds = 10.65 ppw

I don't see why you'd ever drop Khymerae with the Webway stratagem. 5++ invuln is cool but you get that and -1 to hit with the Mandrakes, plus you don'tn rely on making the charge.

I do see an advantage to Clawed Fiends in the 2 damage. It will destroy TEQs and Primaris. Could be a nice counter-charge unit when Blood Angels, 1kSons, and Dark Angels get released, as I'm sure we'll see more deep-striking terminators. Also is a nice anti-Obliterator unit. I'm thinking my lists will now have 10x Mandrakes, a Beastmaster, and a max unit of Clawed Fiends.If I don't want to spend 3x Command points, I can always just run the Beastmaster up as I won't drop til turn 2 at the earliest anyway.

What are y'all's Webway candidates? Specifically, how would you use them?

My Webway candidate is a mob of 10 grotesques. A big, dumb, stupid mob that your opponent has to deal with, otherwise you're flooding them with cleaver attacks.

Yeah, Mandrakes deep strike, I just used it for comparison to see if we even have to use Webway at all as opposed to just using Mandrakes.

Honestly the only viable candidate I see for Webway is Clawed Fiends. If you're gonna drop something to force your opponent to deal with it, that dropped unit has to actually bring something to the table worth dealing with. Grots don't do it. For 202 points, you get a Grot with Whip, and 3 more with Flesh Gauntlets and Monstrous Cleavers. You're looking at a little over 9 GEQs killed per turn. Compare it to the math I did above, that just ain't gonna cut it.

Clawed Fiends actually have the output to make your opponent deal with them as opposed to ignoring them.

Hellions are a decent choice, but as they're only really decent against GEQs anyway.... you may as well go Mandrakes and have that -1 to hit and 5++. The only reason I'm considering Clawed Fiends in place of or more likely alongside Mandrakes is the flexibility against other targets.

4 grots with one scissor hand kill 9-10 GEQ in assault for 162 points. Thats about 25% of their points in one turn. Not bad really. If you take 10 that's 23-24 kills. And GEQ are a poor target for them.

They do better against tougher targets. Ruth the 10 man squad killing 14-15 MEQ or doing 12+ wounds to a T6-9 3+ Monster (Wraith Lord, Hive Tyrant, etc.)


Clawed Fiends with a BM are better at killing GEQ and vehicles. Why not take both and bring the characters up field by taxi?

For CC I would go with Wracks backed up with a Haemonculus with electro corrosive whip. Cheap, durable, and objective secured.

 D6Damager wrote:
For CC I would go with Wracks backed up with a Haemonculus with electro corrosive whip. Cheap, durable, and objective secured.

Do DE troops get Objective Secured? I figured we had to wait until Chapter Approved as an opponent I had wouldn't grant me that trait for my troops because they're index.

 Zuri Prime wrote:

 D6Damager wrote:
For CC I would go with Wracks backed up with a Haemonculus with electro corrosive whip. Cheap, durable, and objective secured.

Do DE troops get Objective Secured? I figured we had to wait until Chapter Approved as an opponent I had wouldn't grant me that trait for my troops because they're index.

Chapter Approved has been released. All troops are objective secured now.

I took a look at the Dark Eldar stuff in Chapter Approved on saturday and i have to say we got some nice stuff. Webway portals for 1 or 3 command points depending on if we take one or two units deepstriking through webway. Even if you wanted to go cheap you could throw out two 20 man warrior squads and without upgrades it'd only cost like 280 pts and output about 80 poisoned shots at half range. Of course it allows beasts, bikers and infantry so a lot of units that'd otherwise be too expensive to transport could go by webway. That or you could throw out grotesques or beasts or something. I'm pretty excited at all the options really.

The genestealer cults i want to play got some good boosts too.

Other than all that i had a kill points game on saturday with my dark eldar vs death guard (with mortarion) at 1500 pts. My rolls and opponents saves vs mortarion weren't so hot so eventually i just entirely avoided him with everything and used the long ranged fast moving units (mostly dark lance based) to attack other units for kill points. I suppose the bad idea i had was to use the short ranged blasters to engage mortarion at all. I should've moved away from mortarion with them and just attacked his dudes in the building. I lost 4 to 7 (almost 5 to 7) but had i learned some of the things i should've done in the game sooner i would've had a good chance of winning possibly even handily.

They fixed one of the 4-5 main problems with DE, sadly they didnt fix the others at all.

The Court was Over-costed but now that they broke the character rule players will find them to cheap, this isnt the courts fault its the STUPID CHARACTER RULES. Get ready for QQing

The other DE problems were WAY over costed units/gear.

Reavers
Lelith
Drazhar
Blasters
Blast Pistols
Heat Lances


Hellions
Grots
Talos

Those units are GROSSLY over costed, some re double the points that they need to be. The top 6 are literally dbl if not over dbl the cost of what they should be.

IDk why those 3 units and 3 weapons didnt get touched, they would have been the 1st thing i would have changed for DE.

To me its clear they are just trying to sell Court models, but sadly no one buys them, literally everyone 3rd party them due to they are 3-5$ and better material, vs 16$+ for a single gakky failcast model.

Can't see how court may bring QQing. Am I blind for some combo that is out there now? Rule is dumb, yeah, but i doubt that court would be abusable. At least no more than other characters could.

Most things that Im aware of use infiltration or DS into area that can't be sen by opponent( Nurglings and so on).
Cant imagine court going full into Assasinstyle list. AM I missing something?

 Spera wrote:
Can't see how court may bring QQing. Am I blind for some combo that is out there now? Rule is dumb, yeah, but i doubt that court would be abusable. At least no more than other characters could.

Most things that Im aware of use infiltration or DS into area that can't be sen by opponent( Nurglings and so on).
Cant imagine court going full into Assasinstyle list. AM I missing something?

When you can field 20+ Single man units that are characters, doing either the following;
6 S4 attacks
9" -2 AP 4 shots
2+ Poison 6+ = mortal wounds
18" 3 shot poison with 3 melee attacks

I would take Ur-Ghuls and Medusae, take a few of each (300pts or so of them giving you 15 or so characters).

They are great at AI, something DE needed, having cheap, No need transport, cant shoot AI backed by 15 Lances some Dis cannons/Bombers its going to be hard to focus targets effectively

 Amishprn86 wrote:


To me its clear they are just trying to sell Court models, but sadly no one buys them, literally everyone 3rd party them due to they are 3-5$ and better material, vs 16$+ for a single gakky failcast model.

The problem with the court models is their price, they're sold as individual models which means that even a small unit of 5 dudes becomes the most expensive unit in terms of money of the entire drukhari catalogue. Same for the beasts.

GW should make new plastic kits for drukhari, one with the court, one with the beast and a 3 man unit of grotesques.

About CA I agree that problems weren't fixed but pretty much all the armies that don't have a codex and desperately need massive points reductions (who said orks?) received only some little bonus with that book, except maybe SW which were almost unplayable before, to be honest.

Medusae are pretty decent on paper for their cost now. In practice probably not so much unless you're already playing an in-your-face army. Not bad to put them with your Archon tax in a Venom to evaporate some Toughness 3 units though.

Just a question about Scourges. I love the models but I dont see them taking the spot of a flyer or a ravager because of durability or am I missing something?

They are good b.c you can DS them and still have 4 lances on the table, or place them in cover ( high up due to fly) and gain cover or keep them out of LoS.

Many like them, i perfect to just take another Ravager.

The alternative mode is no weapons and just use them as a cheap 70pt Jump anti-infantry unit. But i personally would use Corsairs for that, they are in almost everyway better (until the DE codex comes out).

So, what does d eldar have that works? Kabal in boats? As many lances as possible and venoms vs horde?

What about bikes? I was making some back in 5th.

 Niiai wrote:
So, what does d eldar have that works? Kabal in boats? As many lances as possible and venoms vs horde?

What about bikes? I was making some back in 5th.

Vehicles, Mandrakes, flyers, scourges, incubi, kabals, and thats about it. Edit: Beasts can be ok, they are good bubble wrap, but people just been using Kabals for that as well.

Reavers are literally the WORST bike unit in the game atm (maybe the worst out of every edition). They are 30pts for a Splinter Rifle 2W biker with Drugs. Let me repeat that, they cost the same as Shiny Spears and only comes with a Splinter Rifle.

Damit. Painting those bikes where my pride and joy before i stoped playing.

Mandrakes are good, that is a first.

How are hq? Blaster arcons?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: What abou trueborn?

Edit: The webway portal stratagem looks nice with trueborn to deliver blasters, as an alternative to the old venom delivery. Are there anybother units good in a webway? Scourges has their own delivery system.

So the general army loads up on lances and splinter cannons. But if we meet IG our splinter weapons betray us. So we need some form of cheap melee unit to cut through them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok. I came up with a list based on what i used to play before and what I think I can buy. (Namly the razorwing flocks.)

Trueborn arrive via web portal stratagem. The rest rides in transports. But some things I do not like:

1. I have no place to put my arcons.
2. I only have 7 vehicles. They will die fast.
3. The list is good on lances and blasters I think, but light on anti infantery.
4. Gunlines, particularly IG eats me alive.
5. Should i take disintegrators? All my lances are glued on.


++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [95 PL, 1993pts] ++

+ Heavy Support +

Ravager [8 PL, 155pts]: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

Ravager [8 PL, 155pts]: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

Ravager [8 PL, 155pts]: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

+ Dedicated Transport +

Raider [6 PL, 115pts]: Dark Lance

Raider [6 PL, 115pts]: Dark Lance

Venom [4 PL, 95pts]: Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon

Venom [4 PL, 95pts]: Splinter Cannon, Splinter Cannon

+ Troops +

Kabalite Warriors [5 PL, 105pts]
. 7x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [5 PL, 105pts]
. 7x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [3 PL, 50pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [3 PL, 50pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

+ Fast Attack +

Clawed Fiends [10 PL, 192pts]: 6x Clawed Fiend

Razorwing Flocks [4 PL, 168pts]: 12x Razorwing flock

+ HQ +

Archon [4 PL, 73pts]: Agoniser, Blaster

Archon [4 PL, 79pts]: Blaster, Huskblade

+ Elites +

Beastmaster [3 PL, 56pts]: Beastmaster's scourge

Kabalite Trueborn [5 PL, 115pts]
. Dracon: Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster

Kabalite Trueborn [5 PL, 115pts]
. Dracon: Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster

++ Total: [95 PL, 1993pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lol. Just reqlised 8th edition allows 2 5 man units with blasters inside raiders. Hitting on 3's is better then hitting on 4 when moving.

Has somebody done math on 5 warriors in a venom or 2 5 warriors in a raider?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about scoruges with poison vs venoms?

Edit: Something like this at 2000. 2 raiders with 2 warrior squads. 2 with a squad and 1 and 2 arcons. Trueborn in webways. Unfortunetly i only have the scourges and razorwings as anti infantery.

On the pluss sise i have 13 dark lances, 17 blasters. Only 4 splintercanons. :( No venoms.


++ Brigade Detachment +9CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) [101 PL, 1990pts] ++

+ Heavy Support +

Ravager [8 PL, 155pts]: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

Ravager [8 PL, 155pts]: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

Ravager [8 PL, 155pts]: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

+ Dedicated Transport +

Raider [6 PL, 115pts]: Dark Lance

Raider [6 PL, 115pts]: Dark Lance

Raider [6 PL, 115pts]: Dark Lance

Raider [6 PL, 115pts]: Dark Lance

+ Troops +

Kabalite Warriors [3 PL, 50pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [3 PL, 50pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [3 PL, 50pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [3 PL, 50pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [3 PL, 50pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors [3 PL, 50pts]
. 3x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

+ Fast Attack +

Razorwing Flocks [2 PL, 56pts]: 4x Razorwing flock

Razorwing Flocks [2 PL, 56pts]: 4x Razorwing flock

Scourges [6 PL, 130pts]
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Splinter Cannon
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Splinter Cannon
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Splinter Cannon
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Splinter Cannon
. Solarite: Shardcarbine

+ HQ +

Archon [4 PL, 79pts]: Blaster, Huskblade

Archon [4 PL, 79pts]: Blaster, Huskblade

Archon [4 PL, 79pts]: Blaster, Huskblade

+ Elites +

Beastmaster [3 PL, 56pts]: Beastmaster's scourge

Kabalite Trueborn [5 PL, 115pts]
. Dracon: Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster

Kabalite Trueborn [5 PL, 115pts]
. Dracon: Splinter Rifle
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Trueborn with Special Weapon: Blaster

++ Total: [101 PL, 1990pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

DE HQ's are.. bad, Take Archon if you want cheap WL, and Haemonculus can do extra damage to Psychers.

The WWP isnt very good for DE, its leaps and bounds better on CWE/Quins. A few good units for them are Incubi and Wyches. Incubi to kill, Wyches to tie units/tank up. Sadly Beasts dont have PFP but you can still use them with WWP, just dont expect as much out of them. Finally you could use them as a character or elite sniping unit of trueborn with blasters, just know that very costly unit will die instantly.

Blasters are extremely over priced, but they add some punch, they need to be around 7-9pts at least. Same for Shredders, they need to be around 2pts.

About Venoms adn poison, over at thedarkcity, its a 50/50 split as to if venoms are good or bad. They are cheaper than Raiders and only a little bit less survivable. The problem is they dont have any punch at all. Poison in 8th isnt good, especially when you dont have AP or re-rolls.

Posion is meant for higher Toughness targets, but with Blasters and Lances and Str/Toughness chart changes along with large amounts of wounds, and those weapons does multi damage, Poison isnt needed for that roll anymore, but it also is bad against Infantry due to they are T3 or T4 and you still need 4's to wounds and no AP or large amounts of shots. But many like them Over the Raider b.c you can get more on the table and Ravagers are better PFP for Lances than Raiders. Its a good argument for sure.

Scourges are great with DL's and you can keep them cheap with poison, both are fine.

And this is why Mandrakes became good, they can DS, are -1 5++ to hit. They shoot 2 S4 with AP and a chance to add MW's, they have PFP aswell, meaning you could get a charge much easier.


DE has all the units and tools to be an AMAZING codex. Its only problem is Points and some rules needs to change (Like Court body rules, Talos weapons, and Reavers in general). It has huge potential even within the Coven, then you have Beasts, Court, etc... just so many units and options. GW doesnt seem to know how to balance it all or what role some units are taking.

Is the blaster so overpriced? Looks like a good weapon profile as ever.

Has anybody tryed an all infantery army? It seems possible. All our opponents anti tank weapons will be wasted, bar perhaps sole razorwing flocks.

Beastmasters with razorwing flock and mandrakes are anti infantery. Perhaps scourges also.

Trueborn blasters, trueborn lances, scourges lances is our anti tank. With 8th edition it is easy enough to replicate good units.

Blasters are 15pts for an extra 6" over melta, but is only D3 damage, and can never get 2d3 (or melta 2d6), so your paying the same for an extra 1/3 the range but 1/2 the damage. They need to be around 8pts. I would play more of them at 10pts for sure. but 15? Man thats a high price for a range D3 item.

Edit: I'd rather have a Fusion gun is all i'm saying for the same cost. You should look at Blast Pistols compare to a FP DE are always more costly than all other Aeldari for some reason.

While i agree that melta sounds nice, blasters have been the DE way for a long time. We can fire it off DS or open topped transports. It is no -1 to hit. If it was cheaper by 7 points you save 117 points of around 17 of them. While that is nice, it cqn be midigated by having good unit choises.

I can't talk about the other eldar, but it is snug enough for us.

what is the opiniin on the haywire guns?

Its was good in the past bc it was same damage as a Lance, now its literally 1/2 the damage.

Yeah its open top but so are Quins, they get a Melta pistol for 1 pt cheaper, literally a Blast Pistol is same stats for 10pts BUT without the D6 and melta rule.

Then you have SOB,.... they get Open top rhinos with 5 Melta guns in a unit that can Scout with the Rhino. Literally SOB is just a Better DE army lol.

Also looking at Eldar, they can have FD just start in an impossible to kill vehicle then get out w/e they wont to get a key vehicle killed. Or DS them, or etc.. you get it. Just b.c we have Open top doesnt mean we should magically have worst weapons. We already pay WAY more for our vehicles b.c of that open top and fly.

Another example, look at a Starweaver compare to a Venom......

I dont want this to be a QQ (mostly b.c its ian Index and whent he codex comes out this all will be changed/fixed) post so some good posts. The Reaper is also a viable options instead of Ravager, (its the FW Ravager) it also is able to gain the +1T buff from an Haemonculus, I've been running 1 and thinking about running 2, yes they have -1 to hit if they move due to Heavy weapon, but it also is D6 shots and has a 2nd mod to shoot. I personally am liking them more and more.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
To add, i've been thinking the opposite and do ALL vehicles lol. I need to test it out, but i've been practicing for Adepticon, once thats over i'll try it.

Spear Head Deatchments (2)

Haemonulus < WWP
Haemonulus < WWP
Reaper
Reaper
Ravager x3 DL
Ravager x3 DL
Ravager x3 Dis Can
Ravager x3 Dis Can
Venom x1 SC
Venom x1 SC
Venom x1 SC
Venom x2 SC
Venom x2 SC
Venom x2 SC
Void Bomber Scythes
Void Bomber Lances

I honestly dont like more than 2 Flyers and i much prefer the Bomber, for 14pts it does way more damage for me. Venoms are just for more shots, and to charge close to keep the better vehicles alive or tie up some units, 1 Lance bomber for T8 models.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Blasters are 15pts for an extra 6" over melta, but is only D3 damage, and can never get 2d3 (or melta 2d6), so your paying the same for an extra 1/3 the range but 1/2 the damage. They need to be around 8pts. I would play more of them at 10pts for sure. but 15? Man thats a high price for a range D3 item.

Edit: I'd rather have a Fusion gun is all i'm saying for the same cost. You should look at Blast Pistols compare to a FP DE are always more costly than all other Aeldari for some reason.

I'll admit blasters either need a points reduction down to like 10 pts or they need to fire twice.

I'm going to ignore both shredders and haywire blasters as both are garbage right now.

For scourge the go to build now for me is dark lances in 10 scourge units and throwing them in cover. Most things that kill them quickly are close ranged so they tend to last longer with extra dudes. It's not always the case but it helps.

Heat lances are way over-costed. Honestly i'm unsure what to think about them. You have to be in half range to get their actual use out of them. Which is suicide range. They are absolute garbage vs anything above toughness 6 but preferably you only face things at toughness 5 or lower. This generally means they should be used vs bikes, terminators, mini-monster type units (hive guard and similar) and other similar units esp. if they have FnP (wulfen and death guard being good examples). Problem being it's suicide range and some of those units either have 2-3 wounds max and usually you don't need the 2d6 roll take the highest with it. The only other possible use heat lances might have is character killing if you can somehow make it that far.

In many ways i actually feel like the heat lance is inferior to both blasters and dark lances. With blasters they have the same range but better strength and just about anything you can reliably wound with a heat lance you can wound with a blaster. Blasters also tend to do anti-heavy infantry far better and for far cheaper. With dark lances it's still cheaper and you have a -1 to hit on DS and if you move but it's a reasonably safe range and you still get good strength for d6 wounds. Barring the crappy damage rolls that are all too common with dark lances and they're one of the best heavy weapons we've got. Strange how 8th made dark lances good.

-----------

I had a game on saturday vs nids which i won but i might add that later so it doesn't turn into a wall of text. First 3 turns looked like i'd lose but i made some good choices. DS'ing most of my army to face only a small bit of her's was a good idea because i only faced a bit of her army at a time usually. Also it was good i killed her anti-infantry units at one point because my mainly scourge army just wiped the floor with everything else she had left. The reason for that being they were all monsters or hive guard if i recall.

Yeah DL Scourges are nice. I've trying to not swap any weapons out atm (even tho i have almost every unit combination you can think of) the codex is going to completely change everything.

But at least DL Scourges will always be nice, they are guaranteed to survive at least one turn. I have 3 Units of Scourges, 1 Blaster, 1 DL's and 1 HL's. The only HL used to be good .

I think bloodbrides can be ok since you can DS them now close to the enemy. It's still tough though as one guy has a guard army that nearly tabled me in 2 turns and consider i went first. Yeah that's right.

I'm thinking multi-charge with bloodbrides with some units pinning them down first and absorbing overwatch would be good. With the roll-off i should force at least one of the guard squads to stay in combat and that means it can't be shot at. Hopefully could make it into the tanks the very next turn. It'd require a hell of a lot of luck that's for sure. Sadly vs that guy's guard army i might be forced to try turn one charges esp. if i go 2nd. I might not have a lot left otherwise. I still think i'd lose to his guard army but it's worth a shot.

Actually now that i think about it a turn 1 charge probably couldn't happen. I wouldn't have the units available to take overwatch for the bloodbrides. I'd probably be forced to do one unit of grotesques and another of just bloodbrides which actually could probably work.

Ugh it's tough but i might come up with something.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I think bloodbrides can be ok since you can DS them now close to the enemy. It's still tough though as one guy has a guard army that nearly tabled me in 2 turns and consider i went first. Yeah that's right.

I'm thinking multi-charge with bloodbrides with some units pinning them down first and absorbing overwatch would be good. With the roll-off i should force at least one of the guard squads to stay in combat and that means it can't be shot at. Hopefully could make it into the tanks the very next turn. It'd require a hell of a lot of luck that's for sure. Sadly vs that guy's guard army i might be forced to try turn one charges esp. if i go 2nd. I might not have a lot left otherwise. I still think i'd lose to his guard army but it's worth a shot.

Actually now that i think about it a turn 1 charge probably couldn't happen. I wouldn't have the units available to take overwatch for the bloodbrides. I'd probably be forced to do one unit of grotesques and another of just bloodbrides which actually could probably work.

Ugh it's tough but i might come up with something.

Use Wyches, they are cheaper and the unit will die, using 2x10 units in WWP on turn 2 isnt a bad idea. I was thinking about doing this as well just b.c i want to use my Wyches. Bloodbrides are just to costly to do anything with IMO. Your paying 4pts just for a bonus +1 attack. Yes the +1 also gives to your 3 weapons... but they are good enough to pay 4pts for 1 more attack.

Also Wyches can be taken in 20man Units, you could just use 1x20 man on turn 2, the Drug will go a long way on a 20man unit. But then you need to worry about moral. ANd 2x10 means you can split them easier or if 1 charge fails you have a 2nd chance.

Played another close game at 1500 pts. If i was to play again i'd say i need another dissie ravager and maybe another void raven. That up to 10 mortal wounds void mine is no joke when it works. Gotta get rid of those blaster scourge though. Only dark lance scourge are worth it. They're just too fragile otherwise.

Blasters just dont do enough damage for such little range and points. If they were 6pts? Sure take them. And i love the Void Bombers myself. I need to get a 2nd one, i have 3 RWJF's :(

Edit: What did you go against?

I played against blood angels. It was interesting because he said i should deep strike everything at once on turn one but seeing how things went vs the space wolf player i played against i held back a bit and only DS'd when i saw some of what he was DS'ing first so i could get the drop on his DS guys. The point being scourge are too fragile to stand up to enemy DS'ers that arrive after them and in response to them.

Honestly so far if i had to say most fights where i face enemies that also deep strike i tend to lose but i'm getting better at facing them. It feels like you're playing chicken till turn 3 when they have to come on or to see if one player can be a big enough pain to force on the other person's DS'ers. Not to mention if you wipe out everything the enemy has turn 2 or beyond they auto-lose.

Also i learned some things about jump pack dudes that i didn't know about. It actually put me in a very bad position in that game. This is all assuming this is all true. Supposedly DS can work horizontally and then up so you can only be like 3" to 6" away horizontally and make much closer charges if you are jump pack units.

Anyway aside from him being all doom and gloom for me our kill points game was actually insanely close. He was ahead by only a single point. I did go first though. His dice rolls were usually pretty garbage though.

DSing turn 1 is the norm for Alpha strike, but you can also not do that lol.

Sometimes DSing turn one is a bad idea, there are 100's of variables and its hard to say you should do that without knowing the mission, terrain, deployment type, lists, etc...

If he is also DSing lots of units and your going 2nd, DSing after him might be better. If your going 1st and you know you can kill all his or at least enough of his units on the table then sure.


About the 9" DSing rule, no its always over 9" BTB (or BtM or MTM) you MUST be over 9" away no matter if its X, Y, or Z axes, UNLESS you have a rule that literally says "you may be closer", and only a few units in the game have that.. very few. The Death Leaper doesnt even have that. (i can only think of GSC that can atm).

So he read the rules wrong (i'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he read them wrong).

Jump/Fly units only ignore certain movements DS isnt a movement its a rule, and they only ignore vertical movements for going over terrain, units, etc.. they do not ignore distanced placed aka BTB or MTM.

Edit:
BTB = base to base
MTM = Model to model (some models dont have bases
BTM = Base to model
DS = Deep striking or other rules similar
GSC = Genestealer Cult

Honestly i disagree with your points adjustment to Blasters. You see i think Blasters need to be 15-20 pts but get assault 2 or rapid fire 1. That way we can get double the firepower.

My reasoning actually helps more i believe. You see when you take scourge you still have to buy the scourge themselves and equip with blasters for what's essentially a suicide unit. In that way even if dark lance is more expensive if i run a 10 man unit of scourge (meat shields) with 4 dark lances they might last all game at 3 feet of range. Blasters hit hard and fast and then die. Even for half the price of a 10 man scourge unit with 4 dark lances i'd still prefer the dark lances.

Heat lances i'm unsure about but i still think it's a waste. They're in a very weird position being way too pricey, very suicide unit based and the things they're best at (killing mini-monsters like hive guard, bikes, death guard units and wulfen) can also probably be done by dark lances at a safer range with the only downside being no re-roll to damage. Not only that but you only get that re-roll at 9" range which you can't even get on deepstrike.

For me i think haywire is just going to stay garbage. In 7th it stopped having a use when tanks went away but in 8th it just doesn't do enough even with vehicles.

Anyway the only fix i have right now is for blasters and i think assault 2 or rapid fire 1 would fix things considerably. Rapid fire 1 would mean you can't double tap after deep strike but it'd at least add some reward for the extra risk. Dare i say either tweak might make blasters good.

I wouldnt make that cost more, If Blasters were Assault 2 I then would take them for 15pts.

They are over costed for what they do by 2 fold, giving them a 2nd shot doesnt mean you increase the cost of them.

Tho Giving them a 2nd shot is a nice idea and i can get behind that.

I dont think Blaster are Suicide like you do, thats literally what Heat Lances are for. They were highly used in 7th for that purpose... and since they were used GW wanted to sell more models and nerf them m, sadly they would make more money from models is everything was good and not nerf.. but w/e.

Been having a rather mixed time with my list but i'd say it's positive overall. Unless it's space wolves, horde nids or imperial guard then i think i tend to win or get close games. Enemies that deep strike are also an iffy thing. I'm getting better though and i think the 2 void ravens will help if i set them up to drop void mines on where my units DS considering enemies with melee DS'ers will end up around there and near my DS'ing squads.

Also more disintegrator ravagers will help considerably but maybe the void mines will help.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/01/26/new-codexes-factions-our-heroes-and-more-breaking-news-from-the-las-vegas-opengw-homepage-post-1/

 Amishprn86 wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/01/26/new-codexes-factions-our-heroes-and-more-breaking-news-from-the-las-vegas-opengw-homepage-post-1/

A picture of a cover?

Btw i'm actually doing ok with my dark eldar right now. I faced genestealer cults last week and beat em.

Honestly if i had to say the best counter we have to horde armies is melee'ing them with ravagers or raiders if you don't have ravagers. Ork boyz might be the exception but vs gaunts, cultists, guardsmen and neophyte hybrids the toughness 6 really manages to keep low tier spam units from hurting the vehicle too bad. Also if you really need it you can just fly away at any time.

The game i had vs genestealer cults probably had the ravager get the most damaged by any overwatch ever if only because his 2 flamers rolled up 12 shots and 12 auto-hits with like 5 wounds but only 3 got through (very good rolls for him). That said he had 40 shotgun shots at over half range and only 1 wound of it went through.

What has stonewalled my dark eldar has not been the screens themselves but the psykers and characters mixed into those screens. Against 90 plaguebearers, I was able to kill very little of my opponent's army (some of which regrew) while in his turn he was able to smite and use various other powers to destroy 3 of my transports and all the passengers in a single turn.

You can't make many trades like that where you're just killing a dozen plaguebearers if you're lucky (84 points) but he's killing hundreds of points back in vehicles and passengers.

I tried both routes, staying at range and pouring in shots and moving up to block and tie units up with transports. Both were crushing defeats and I'm a fairly high ranked player on ITC rankings so I know it's not just me sucking. I'm keeping them on the shelf until I see more from the codex.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
What has stonewalled my dark eldar has not been the screens themselves but the psykers and characters mixed into those screens. Against 90 plaguebearers, I was able to kill very little of my opponent's army (some of which regrew) while in his turn he was able to smite and use various other powers to destroy 3 of my transports and all the passengers in a single turn.

You can't make many trades like that where you're just killing a dozen plaguebearers if you're lucky (84 points) but he's killing hundreds of points back in vehicles and passengers.

I tried both routes, staying at range and pouring in shots and moving up to block and tie units up with transports. Both were crushing defeats and I'm a fairly high ranked player on ITC rankings so I know it's not just me sucking. I'm keeping them on the shelf until I see more from the codex.

Dark Eldar in 8th lost its ability to kill hordes. Unless your fighting Lots of High cost big targets, DE suffers.

With Splinter Cannon being 1/2 the shots, and everything can hurt everything now. We cant kill as much of them but they can kill more of us, making it harder to get Rapid fire. DE never used to be hurt by S3 before, so we didnt care if we got close to Hordes to actually use our Rapid fire weapons. but that just isnt possible now.

DE got hit 3x against horde armies this edition.

But with the codex coming out, hopefully we get enough changes to matter.

You know what'd help? It'd help if we got splinter racks back on raiders and they doubled shots on splinter weapons.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
You know what'd help? It'd help if we got splinter racks back on raiders and they doubled shots on splinter weapons.

I was guessing it would be a 1CP stratagem.

I am very new to DE team.
I'm ex Guard army. ( now I give it to my brother ) then I tell my tactic to him.
Then I attempt to against my old list that was follow ( 2k pts ):

1 Stormlord ( 2 spon with twin flamer )
1 hellhammer ( 2 spon with twin flamer )
3x10 infat all lasgun
2 company com
2 primaris phyker
2 leman russ battle cannot
2 hellhound with flamer
1 wyvern
2 sentinel with flamer

Due to they put all infat in stormlord, so Guard likely all 1st turn.
I attempt many tactics but end up fragile DE.

Could someone advice me how to DE against that Guard?

What is your list?
Also dont forget he is playing with a codex you are not, you can surely still win, but you are at a disadvantage. So dont take it to heart to much, it will make you a better player.

Once we see what you have been playing we can help you more.

Now I just have only this due to just start correct DE.

2x Archon blast pistol Agoniser

Venom - W/ Double SC

(3x )Kabalitex5 - blast pistol - PGL - Blaster - Venom W/ Double SC

2x Beast master 9 Razorwing flock

Trueborn 2 Dark lances Raider w/ Dark lance

3x Ravager 3 DL

3x Razorwing Double DL

Note : I start this team because I like Razorwing & Voidraven.
Note 2 : I just first one to play DE in my local shop ( never against them before ).

Important info[b] my local shop all map table not have any high building so nothing can hide. Just have some small rune to +1 save.

I know I just first read for this team and I will try to get time for deep read it.

Nothing can hide? WTF? Thats stupid. you NEED some hiding places for all armies. If that is the case your screwed lol,

Seriously that means whoever has better shooting with survivable will win. There is no point in playing. Its a John Wayne standoff with no LoS Blocking terrain, and IG is John Wayne.

Your list is not bad, honestly its not. Its your terrain rules... they favor good long range shooting armies OR DSing Melee armies (DE is neither)

Here are some tips

Dry to get less Drops and go first. Dont take 2 Beast masters, take 1, take 1 unit of RWF's (this is now 2 Drops)

Option 1
Get a Raider if you can, place the DL Trueborn unit in that Raider and a Archon
Blaster Trueborn in Venom

Option 2
WWP the Blaster Treuborn and place the DL Trueborn
DL Trueborn in Venom

Thank for some tip, I will not give up for sure that challenge to me.
Your option same as I think. I building some Raiders now.
In my local shop Guard always champion in tournament. You will dont need any basilisk because no point need LoS. Ramen russ is the King ( more than 150 of this tank just only local shop haha ).
Anyway shop owner will improve map soon.

Pic is sample of my local shop map ( 6 of them almost same just deference theme )

Cover also gives +1 to the save tho and if you cant cover your vehicles while in cover then its pointless for vehicle armies. No wonder IG always wins there. You still need LoS, IG has many weapons other some LoS ignoring ones, they still have things like HBs etc... on other parts of the vehicles, your not only taking the long range weapons but your taking it all.

If i was in your Meta, i would take lots of Scourges and Mandrakes, turn 1 drop 25 Scourges with 20 Dark Lances lol, and turn 2 Drop 20 Mandrakes to shoot+charge (re-rolls on turn 2). Just have lots of cheap Venoms and a couple Ravagers as the rest of my army. (Venoms being -1 to hit hurts IG more than you would think).

If your mandrakes can make that charge (lets say you took 4 units of 5, if 2 units are able to charge 2 tanks your set for the rest of the game). Shoot the trash with them 1st tho (20 of them is 40 shots, all 6's to wound kills 2 guardsman).

Thank for that I will try it.
Before I play Guard man with several tank sit in corner then put 100-150 of guard man wall like several layer of it, so on one can change with out killing this meat wall.
This trick is hurt several experience guy with another teams. Till now I just play for a month. and I know even I win but no any improvement. ( just because easy terrain of guard man )
So I decade to go another team and give Guard man to my bro. for someday might go to bigger world.

The picture above is really bad. The changes to terain in 8th edition means it is imposibke to get saves unless you update the terain.

Where can you block line of sight on that picture? Where can you get saves for any unit or tank?

Just looking at the terain poeces, could you not just have played on a naked board?

 Niiai wrote:
The picture above is really bad. The changes to terain in 8th edition means it is imposibke to get saves unless you update the terain.

Where can you block line of sight on that picture? Where can you get saves for any unit or tank?

Just looking at the terain poeces, could you not just have played on a naked board?

I seriously want to call the owner of that shop and tell him he is a F Re

Haha yahh that right.
3 of 6 map is almost naked 2 of then just have porn star bikini, only one of them have some good terrain that can hide.

Is this a Club or official GW store?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Is this a Club or official GW store?

That I dont need to be detail, I see the owner team working hard to improve it.
In my small country 40k just very rare and expensive to local salary.
Now I see them attempt to spread around 40k for local people.

I sure map will be improve soon and I will help that also, I am pretty new but I would love to help that.

I've spent 20$ and done full 4x6' table worth of terrain, its actually really easy and cheap.

Any hardware store will have sheets for 4-5$ of 3-4mm thick wood that are around 3x5', ask to cut them up in 6x6" or 9x9" or w/e they can (if its home depot or lowes etc.. they do for free). Try to get 9 pieces if you can at least (this way you have 3 large builds for 3 tables)

Buy 3 sheets of foam board (normally 3-4$ some places can get cheaper kinds for less).
A box cutter and either Hot glue or Woodglue (Hot glue is faster, you can get a Small hotglue gun for 3-4$ at walmart and the 100 count of glue for 2$)
How just cut the Foam into equal squads, but ALWAYS measure them in 3" tall, all floors should be 3". So if you want 2 Floors 1 wall is 6" BUT you want at least 1" over, so a 3" wall is actually 4", 6" is actually 7" (this is for when you stand on the floors your guy is still in cover)

Make at least 1 Wall 6" (I mean 7"), 1 wall at least 3" (well 4") the other 2 is 3" or less or even none (this will give some LoS on 2 sides but not 2 other sides and helps put your models/hands in the terrain)
You can also make floor(s), try to make floors like L shape, the L being 3" up on the tall wall and the touch it to the 4" wall (3" up so give you an 1" of room to cover).

Can't wait for the new Codex to arrive!

So had a game today against a mostly genestealer tyranid list. All i'm going to say is between genestealers, wulfen, ork bikers with dakka guns and some other units i'm going to need more poisoned shots. I realize poison isn't great vs hordes but it seems to be ok against anything that gets a 4+ or 5+ and costs maybe 12 pts per guy.

In the case of charging wyches and a raider to eat the overwatch for them wyches would only do ok vs hordes and hordes can usually be bogged down by ravagers or raiders anyway. In the case of wulfen, genestealers or dakka gun bikers they'd just laugh off the wyches and then shred them. In the case of the dakka guns it's so much fire output it could severely damage even a ravager with overwatch alone and the wyches would do next to nothing.

So right now i'm wondering of whether to get more scourge with shardcarbines or just get a crap ton of warriors to webway portal in which i think is what i'll do. Sadly anything in the dark eldar army with anti-infantry or poisoned shots will be in close combat the very next turn against any melee army worth anything (nids, wulfen, flyers). Knowing that i may as well go for fragility with more firepower rather than more armor. The scourge usually don't last long enough to fly away anyway and if they do they are greatly decreased in efficiency.

So yeah warrior spam with webway portal is how i'm going to do it. 280 pts or so of them with 40 dudes (2 units of 20 each) should do it.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
So had a game today against a mostly genestealer tyranid list. All i'm going to say is between genestealers, wulfen, ork bikers with dakka guns and some other units i'm going to need more poisoned shots. I realize poison isn't great vs hordes but it seems to be ok against anything that gets a 4+ or 5+ and costs maybe 12 pts per guy.

In the case of charging wyches and a raider to eat the overwatch for them wyches would only do ok vs hordes and hordes can usually be bogged down by ravagers or raiders anyway. In the case of wulfen, genestealers or dakka gun bikers they'd just laugh off the wyches and then shred them. In the case of the dakka guns it's so much fire output it could severely damage even a ravager with overwatch alone and the wyches would do next to nothing.

So right now i'm wondering of whether to get more scourge with shardcarbines or just get a crap ton of warriors to webway portal in which i think is what i'll do. Sadly anything in the dark eldar army with anti-infantry or poisoned shots will be in close combat the very next turn against any melee army worth anything (nids, wulfen, flyers). Knowing that i may as well go for fragility with more firepower rather than more armor. The scourge usually don't last long enough to fly away anyway and if they do they are greatly decreased in efficiency.

So yeah warrior spam with webway portal is how i'm going to do it. 280 pts or so of them with 40 dudes (2 units of 20 each) should do it.

Personally, Scourges work best with Dark Lances when they're in cover and shooting across the map at exposed elite infantry or vehicles. A 20 warrior Webway bomb does sound pretty scary though! It has the potential, if you roll really well, to put in some hurt however poison's 4+ to wound hurts it.

 Zuri Prime wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
So had a game today against a mostly genestealer tyranid list. All i'm going to say is between genestealers, wulfen, ork bikers with dakka guns and some other units i'm going to need more poisoned shots. I realize poison isn't great vs hordes but it seems to be ok against anything that gets a 4+ or 5+ and costs maybe 12 pts per guy.

In the case of charging wyches and a raider to eat the overwatch for them wyches would only do ok vs hordes and hordes can usually be bogged down by ravagers or raiders anyway. In the case of wulfen, genestealers or dakka gun bikers they'd just laugh off the wyches and then shred them. In the case of the dakka guns it's so much fire output it could severely damage even a ravager with overwatch alone and the wyches would do next to nothing.

So right now i'm wondering of whether to get more scourge with shardcarbines or just get a crap ton of warriors to webway portal in which i think is what i'll do. Sadly anything in the dark eldar army with anti-infantry or poisoned shots will be in close combat the very next turn against any melee army worth anything (nids, wulfen, flyers). Knowing that i may as well go for fragility with more firepower rather than more armor. The scourge usually don't last long enough to fly away anyway and if they do they are greatly decreased in efficiency.

So yeah warrior spam with webway portal is how i'm going to do it. 280 pts or so of them with 40 dudes (2 units of 20 each) should do it.

Personally, Scourges work best with Dark Lances when they're in cover and shooting across the map at exposed elite infantry or vehicles. A 20 warrior Webway bomb does sound pretty scary though! It has the potential, if you roll really well, to put in some hurt however poison's 4+ to wound hurts it.

He had 40 genestealers in 1500 pts dude. Not to mention he had some hive guard. It was mostly all about those genestealers though. Not to mention he had a hive fleet that allowed them to run pretty fast.

I'm hoping the warrior bomb helps though. Dark eldar need more options and our anti-horde is still very abysmal even with that.

Currently DE AH is all in melee (sadly). Beast and Mandrakes

Razorwing Flocks really helps slow them down. Also with other beasts (well not Clawed fiends, them are more Primaris Marine killers). Take 2 min units of Birds and Dogs, since he only really has Hive Guard, those will stick to shooting your vehicles.

Finally take some Mandrakes, 2 units will do. the MW's will help a small bit, but its really the 2 shots each and its melee.

This is if he is still Genestealer crazy lol.

I understand you guys are trying to help and i imagine if i was going anti-horde it'd work. That said my current counter to anti-horde (boyz, gaunts, neophyte hybrids, cultists and guardsmen) is to just throw a ravager in melee with it or to just run away. My issue is for anything just above horde levels like genestealers. As i have said i may need the massed poison due to ork bikers with dakka guns, genestealers and wulfen (as if there's even a real good way to handle wulfen). In all of those scenarios trying to get in melee with mandrakes or even beasts will probably end badly. Not to mention all those beasts would cost an arm and a leg to buy (in cash) even if i take khymerae.

I will admit though if people take a thing called the 'death blossom' or even just spammed plague zombies then i'm screwed and should concede before the game starts. From what i heard it's a horde i can't deal with and even though slow will eventually hold most of the board. Probably worth it to find out though.

Dont forget Flyers, they deny small zones. I always play with 2.
I also always play with Beasts, they dont need to win combat, they need to be a speed bumb like your "ravager" into melee, but at least its only 40-60pts compare to 155pts.

I also play with Reapers, Reapers STOPS advance movements.
Very important IMO. Ravagers are good, but Reapers are needed more (its an alternative Ravager). You just need to kill 1 model to stop that unit from advancing


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have posted this before, but will do so again

My list is normally as a base
1-2 Reapers, 2-3 Ravagers (tho i think i'm going to do 2 and 2 for now on),
2-3 units of RWF's
2 Flyers

My set up is so i cant be turn 1 charge (THIS WORKS FOR ALL DEPLOYMENTS) Yes the picture is for long ways, but it works any way. Just use terrain and spread out the Flyers a bit more and the RWF's

Deployment


Example of different deployment



The goal is to not get DS charge or that 1 unit that charges 40". Kill that unit off and shoot the reapers at the other units to stop Advancements (Great again Harlequins, Orks, and Genestealers)

This weekend I play again after I ask in my last post.
This time I success play 3 wins ( IG, nid, Tua ).

My new list I dont know It can call DE or not. May call it eldar soup.
I spaming venom with Trueborn. 3 Razorwing jet. And take a detachment of eldar Farser + 3 group of dark reaper with Tempest.

This list work very well this week ( spacialy Dark reaper )

Yeah, just get ready for a nerf to Dark Reapers.

Over all its a good list sounds like. Flyers are very strong and cheap in DE.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Yeah, just get ready for a nerf to Dark Reapers.

Over all its a good list sounds like. Flyers are very strong and cheap in DE.

Yahh I think so, I just play with wet color Dark reaper but that working more than expect. That make I know it OP.

all 3 games they kill almost the scary deep strike with eldar stratagem.

Webway Portals, who uses them and what units are best for them?

I am really thinking of bringing in a big blob of Hellions through the webway. either one squad of 20, or two squads of 10. I already have 20 hellions but am Having a hard time figuring out what to do with them. They are great against big monsters, like daemon princes but against shootier armies, they have a hard time lasting if they start on the board. Should I wait until turn 2 or 3 so i get to reroll the charge if I need? Turn 3 just for the +2 to hit action.

 Icculus wrote:
Webway Portals, who uses them and what units are best for them?

I am really thinking of bringing in a big blob of Hellions through the webway. either one squad of 20, or two squads of 10. I already have 20 hellions but am Having a hard time figuring out what to do with them. They are great against big monsters, like daemon princes but against shootier armies, they have a hard time lasting if they start on the board. Should I wait until turn 2 or 3 so i get to reroll the charge if I need? Turn 3 just for the +2 to hit action.

We dont really have anything worth wild to use them in.

Beasts dont have PFP so they cant get Re-roll charges
Reavers are double the points they should be
Wyches dont do anything at all not worth taking for a DS


The 2 units i would say are best, 1) Haemonculus and 2) Kabals
1) Haemonculus can DS and CoM if you are fighting a Psychic heavy army (like Tzeentch or Eldar)
2) Kabals, can take a 10-20 man to drop on Objective, get in the way, or get into Rapid fire to get off 20-40 shots

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
Webway Portals, who uses them and what units are best for them?

I am really thinking of bringing in a big blob of Hellions through the webway. either one squad of 20, or two squads of 10. I already have 20 hellions but am Having a hard time figuring out what to do with them. They are great against big monsters, like daemon princes but against shootier armies, they have a hard time lasting if they start on the board. Should I wait until turn 2 or 3 so i get to reroll the charge if I need? Turn 3 just for the +2 to hit action.

We dont really have anything worth wild to use them in.

Beasts dont have PFP so they cant get Re-roll charges
Reavers are double the points they should be
Wyches dont do anything at all not worth taking for a DS


The 2 units i would say are best, 1) Haemonculus and 2) Kabals
1) Haemonculus can DS and CoM if you are fighting a Psychic heavy army (like Tzeentch or Eldar)
2) Kabals, can take a 10-20 man to drop on Objective, get in the way, or get into Rapid fire to get off 20-40 shots

Interesting option with the Haemy and CoM. May have to try that some time. The kabal option is pretty good and way cheaper than the hellions. But get this, if I DS 20 hellions, that's 40 shots because splinterpods are assault 2. I can give them +1T combat drug for more staying power if they fail the charge or if I decide to sit on the objective.

How about a unit of trueborn with 4 blasters? may be able to get a good angle on an independent character with a well placed deep strike.

IMO Blasters are way to costly for what they do (They are D3 at the cost of a Melta gun that is D6). If you need to kill a unit of Primaris Marines they sure they would be viable.

I don't think haemy mass is a good idea. Too costly for what it does and our hq's are bad anyway currently. Also it sounds super situational and it's too costly for that role.

I'm sort of in a scenario where i'm not totally sure what to take but spammed warriors at half range deep striking sounds best. While poison is still not good it can counter a variety of things. Still isn't a counter to horde though.

The strength of wyches is just dismal imo. Even though they have 4+ inv. save they'd get shredded by overwatch and since you need a transport to take the hits for them DS'ing them wouldn't work on turn 1 anyway. Even if you had a ton it still wouldn't work so well.

Wracks might be ok for their cost and if they have haemy back-up but not great. Also i might transport them but each unit costs as much as a transport so that's not so hot.

Incubi i'm not sure if i'd use. They can go through a decent amount of armor with their attacks and have decent armor (for DE) but str 4 is still fairly on the low side. I usually prefer to just spam dissies on ravagers but if nothing else it might be a decent counter to DS them in and say hello to a bunch of marines that DS first . I'd take 2 units of 10 in this case for 20 total though.

Grotesques might be ok vs horde and some other stuff but they're costly.

---------

Far as what i use i tend to use mostly scourge and ravagers. That's seriously pretty much everything in my list.

I've mostly stopped running the void raven because although it is invulnerable to wulfen and thunderwolf cavalry it either doesn't do enough or just gets shot down and the points are usually better spent elsewhere. Perhaps 2 void ravens would do more as i do have a 2nd now. They are still somewhat cheap considering.

---------

You already know my beef with blasters already. They need to be assault 2.

It depends, if you are going to fight someone with 6-7 units of Psychers, like Tzeentch Horrors, GK's, etc.. then yes DSing him is useful, he could get 3-5 uits to take mortal wounds and then charge another unit (he is actually good in melee if your not charging Melee focus units).

Its an option to fight against something DE has no other way to stop.

I have put 2 against a Tzeentch player with Daemon Princes, horrors, Herald, etc.. (before CA, but same idea) over all was 17 MW's (each hit 8-9 units), charged a Horror unit and did enough to check that unit out. If i didnt have that tool i would have lost that turn, but instead made it a much more fun and close game.

Not saying this will happen everytime, but it s a good option against certain armies/lists. Its a tool that i find useful. But I will never will find WWP Beasts useful.

If you want to deepstrike tons of shots just deploy 2x20 kabals using the webway. 80 shots in rapid fire range not counting eventual special weapons. The 2 naked squad without upgrades are 280 points, not a huge investment.

Haemys spam is probably useless, but I always take 2 of them as my required HQs for the battallion. Succubus are extremely lackluster and you need wyches which I tipycally avoid and archons are basically an additional blaster in an army in which the only thing that doesn't need is more anti tank.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
It depends, if you are going to fight someone with 6-7 units of Psychers, like Tzeentch Horrors, GK's, etc.. then yes DSing him is useful, he could get 3-5 uits to take mortal wounds and then charge another unit (he is actually good in melee if your not charging Melee focus units)

Who/what are you referring to?

 WeeDawgNYC wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
It depends, if you are going to fight someone with 6-7 units of Psychers, like Tzeentch Horrors, GK's, etc.. then yes DSing him is useful, he could get 3-5 uits to take mortal wounds and then charge another unit (he is actually good in melee if your not charging Melee focus units)

Who/what are you referring to?

Did you not read the last 3 posts? Haemoncului

I had a game today vs that same ork player. We had somewhat different lists only this time i went first. Knowing what he had i lanced his mega nobs to death (i learned from the DS'ing of ghazkull and mega nobs last game) and did some damage vs his dakkagun ork bikers. We only had a turn a piece but our rolling was pretty hot. I killed his unit of mega nobs and got first blood but he killed 2 units of scourge and half killed my ravager. I think the game would've been close had the store not closed within 45 mins of us starting the actual game. He also agreed it'd have been much closer.

I think if i got to do turn 2 i would have dissie'd his flash gitz to death. The flash gitz did a surprising amount of damage and got super lucky rolls as opposed to the depressingly abysmal lootas in that game. I also would've charged his dakka gun ork bikers with my full health ravager (which was out of LoS of most of his bikers). I told him about that after the game and he agreed it would've hurt him considerably since it'd prevent his dakka guns firing again if he wished to leave combat.

The mass of buildings also helped for LoS reasons and i think a map without much LoS blocking terrain is a death trap for dark eldar against enemy shooting.

Yes 8th is the LoS edition for sure.

So which themes seem to be the strongest?

Kabal themed
Wych Cult themed
Coven themed
Mix of all

Are there many benefits to sticking to one of those themes exclusively?

Strongest in what sense?

Kabal should be best at shooting
Wyches should be the fastest, and a scalpel melee army
Coven are the toughest with high damage melee but slower

We should in theory have shooting and melee, that is how we are balanced.

I think we know he means what's doing best right now and the answer to that is kabals by a lot.

Wyches, bloodbrides, hellions, reavers and such all suck with maybe exception to beasts. Well ok wyches might be ok if you have a raider or ravager take overwatch for them but then that means you can't turn 1 DS them with webway portal which is bad.

Covens have a nice hero in an army with bad heroes. Wracks seem ok, grotesques might be nice but the monsters just aren't good right now.

Mandrakes are supposed to be good but they're not really part of the covens or any group. Incubi might also be good but once again belong to no group. I might be wrong but i think scourge are part of the kabals and they're good with dark lances.

Generally i run scourge and ravagers with maybe a void raven. I also may run warriors.

I honestly thought he wasnt talking about currently (I wont go into why).

Its basically only Kabals, vehicles and Mandrakes right now. Some will use Scourges but Ravagers are mostly better.

DE can do easy Battalions due to kabals, some are not even giving them transports (I personally give Raiders), just taking more Ravagers/Flyers.

If there's a few slots you need you could always do minimum squad size if it's something cheap like infantry if you want to get the bigger FoC.

I'm still really hoping we get splinter racks back when we get our new book in a month or two. In old editions it was twin-linking splinter weapons. Everything in old editions that was twin linked is now twice as many shots. Basically half range splinter rifles would be 4 shots and half range splinter cannons would be 12 shots. Imagine two 5 man trueborn squads with 4 splinter cannons total giving 48 poisoned shots just with those 4 weapons alone. I'm actually thinking that's what they'll do but i don't want to fully commit to that idea yet so much as be prepared for it.

Heat lances do suck btw. I tried em some more and realized for its cost as a suicide unit it is way too expensive. The only boost heat lances and blasters have over dark lances is the fact they're assault weapons but the high strength, damage and range of dark lances just makes them so much better.

I'm still a bit unsure if i should try a good amount of incubi though. Incubi in small numbers don't do much anymore but in large numbers they could be ok-ish. Strength 4 and only damage 1 is depressing even with the good number of attacks. It'd be a good counter to all this alpha strike non-sense with marines or similar popping up.

I have used a unit of 5 incubi in a venom in a number of games, and they have failed to do anything in any game. So I see the point of the incubi issue.

lately my lists have comprised of 2 10-strong warrior squads each with both a blaster and dark lance in raiders with dark lances. a trueborn squad in a venom with 4 blasters and then sometimes I include a 20-strong squad of warriors on foot with 2 dark lances and 2 blasters.

I really feel like a glass cannon with this at the core of my lists. If I miss with my dark lances, I am basically screwed.

But what I have found to be particularly useful against certain armies is the Talos and Haemoncolus. He is reasonably fast and good in close combat . I just finished assembling 4 grotestques and a unit of wracks and am considering making the switch to more Coven units.

My unit of 20 hellions is fun to play with but sometimes does absolutely nothing but absorb firepower by dying while my dark lances get to shoot.

I know this question might be a bit 'hard' since the Codex hasnt been released yet but is getting the start collecting box for Dark Eldar the best way to start an army?

I'm hearing how the Reavers are bad ATM but they just... look so cool!

My friend wanted to do them so I want to suggest him a good start.

Thank you!

 Icculus wrote:
So which themes seem to be the strongest?

Kabal themed
Wych Cult themed
Coven themed
Mix of all

Are there many benefits to sticking to one of those themes exclusively?

This is actually my biggest fear of the codex drop, having to choose to get any army wide special rule, DE are hurt by being one of the only faction where all the units CAN’T have the same faction key words. It’ll be interesting to see how they counter that or if they basically force each DE army to pick one flavour to stay competitive.

Overdose wrote:
I know this question might be a bit 'hard' since the Codex hasnt been released yet but is getting the start collecting box for Dark Eldar the best way to start an army?

I'm hearing how the Reavers are bad ATM but they just... look so cool!

My friend wanted to do them so I want to suggest him a good start.

Thank you!

Well for sure start collection is good. I always recommend that you dont put the 2 Kabals hanging off the sides of the Raiders on (unless you really wanted too), they get in the way, break, hard to transport, etc.. and you can use thpse 2 guys for extra kabals. Give them a special or heavy weapon. This will let you have more options in what to take as well.
Same for the Venoms. After 2 Raiders and 2 Venoms that 8 Extra guys with 8 special/heavy weapons like Blasters and Dark Lances.

Build your Reavers but dont paint them yet, dont add the weapon or caltrops/grav-talons on just yet. Wait for the codex.


I would get Start Collection, 1 Box of Kabals,1 Raider, then a Ravager or Flyer. This will give you a core of 1 HQ, 3 Troops, 2 Vehicles, a fast unit and 1 Heavy/Flyer slot.

Edit: Also you can get Black Corsair AoS box set for more Archons and Trueborns. Mix them with Kabals and they look great.

What's the most optimal build for a 10man Kabalite Warrior Squad w/ a Raider?

1x Sybarite: Splinter Pistol or Blast Pistol? Agoniser or Power Sword?

For the actual Warriors I'm thinking 8x stock warriors and 1x with Dark Lance.

Haven't decided the load out for the Raider yet.

Hopefully I can learn how to magnetize weapons very soon :(

Agoniser almost is always better than PW

I personally run, Agoniser, PGL, Dark Lance and that it. No blasters at all (they are over costed, players think Melta guns are to much and blasters are worst melta guns).

Its not hard to swap out the weapons with magnets.

I never equip sybarites with any weapon, you don't want them into combat and blast pistols are overcosted. Even if they get charged the agoniser doesn't do anything, the unit is too weak that usually dies before having the chance to strike back. However it's a 4 pts upgrade and if you don't struggle with points (I always do, lol) it's ok to equip it on the sybarite.

I think the better loadout for a 10 man squad in a raider is giving the unit a dark lance and a blaster. Blasters are a bit overcosted but you need that unit to shoot and nothing else and that weapon should be in range for doing something all the time.

I prefer units of 5 with a blaster in venoms though. Raiders are more efficient pointwise but I think having more vehicles on the ground helps to protect the ravagers. And since I don't own the beasts I must rely on poison to deal with infantries. I mostly use raiders for carrying assault oriented units.

Kabals going into combat isnt a bad thing and could help you win the game. They have won the game for me a few times. Turn 3, re-roll charges and 2+ to hit. You shoot 20 shots out, charge and melee an Ork unit or nids, cultist etc.. to claim an objective normally will clear out a 15-18 man unit. Sometimes its better to charge than be counter charge and lose both your vehicle and kabals.

Bc i only take 3 Kabal units an extra 12pts to potential kill 70+ is well worth it for me.

I think i disagree with kabals going into combat but i'd replace that word with 'ravagers' or 'raiders' charging into combat after everything else shoots. It's good vs hordes for now. Manages to hold down gaunts, GEQ's and possibly even boyz. Depends how hard a unit hits in melee but our flying fast vehicles can tank em pretty hard esp. if you are out of LoS during overwatch.

While going into melee may not be Kabals strength, (obviously its shooting), they are still hitting on 2s which is absolutely crazy when you look at any other armies dirt-cheap troop choice for a shooting list. I say hitting on 2s because if you get into combat with them before turn 3 then you are probably in trouble and this is not when you want to get them in combat.

I think you will surprise a lot of people with their effectiveness in combat. Strength is low, yes, but you will have more hits to start off with.

 Icculus wrote:
While going into melee may not be Kabals strength, (obviously its shooting), they are still hitting on 2s which is absolutely crazy when you look at any other armies dirt-cheap troop choice for a shooting list. I say hitting on 2s because if you get into combat with them before turn 3 then you are probably in trouble and this is not when you want to get them in combat.

I think you will surprise a lot of people with their effectiveness in combat. Strength is low, yes, but you will have more hits to start off with.

Yep, this. Kabals are good at shoot. But for re-rolling charges, hitting on 2+. You can do more damage than you think. Especially if you are charging other cheap units on objectives, like Horror's, Cultists, Rangers. etc...

If kabals charge a close combat oriented unit, even a decent one and not some melee specialists, they're going to melt without doing much. Against tyranids or orks you're basically helping the opponent, against ork boyz for example I think it's better to make a conga line with the kabalites and not throw them into combat to force the orks to crush into them instead of something that worths more. Otherwise the kabals would be wiped out in the drukhari turn and in the opponent one the unit that has been charged by the kabals can charge something else.

I agree that is rewarding to assault cheap and weak min squads though, even space marines units.

Why would you charge a CC opt unit, especially Nids or Orks?

We never said charge everything with them.

I meant hormagaunts and boyz, not their real specialists. At the end of the day 10 kabalites just have 9 attacks hitting on 2s or 2s but S3 with no ap and 2 attacks with AP-2 wounding on 4s if there's an agoniser in the unit.

Charging with the raider is considerably more effective since the vehicle can survive a round of combat and the damage output is basically the same.

Assault with kabalites is ok only against shooty units that have no CC output, just to tarpit them since they're not going to kill (or even damage) anything but maybe a 5 man squad of T3 dudes.

Amishprn86 wrote:Why would you charge a CC opt unit, especially Nids or Orks?

We never said charge everything with them.

Blackie wrote:I meant hormagaunts and boyz, not their real specialists. At the end of the day 10 kabalites just have 9 attacks hitting on 2s or 2s but S3 with no ap and 2 attacks with AP-2 wounding on 4s if there's an agoniser in the unit.

Charging with the raider is considerably more effective since the vehicle can survive a round of combat and the damage output is basically the same.

Assault with kabalites is ok only against shooty units that have no CC output, just to tarpit them since they're not going to kill (or even damage) anything but maybe a 5 man squad of T3 dudes.

Looks at what i type.... Looks at what you type.


Repeats:
"Why would you charge a CC opt unit, especially Nids or Orks?

We never said charge everything with them."

Against nids and they have a 3-4man Tgant unit or 1-2 Rippers left after you shot? yes charge.. Charge a large unit? no. Charge 2-4 Hgants? Sure, charge 5+? no.
Not that hard to understand.
.
Edit: Spelling


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I want to add. I dont play with Venoms and i use large amounts of Kabals, I even dont really use Raiders anymore, they are not worth the points at all.

Really ? Warriors riding in Raiders is what draws me to the army, among many things, I love the visuals of having a true pirate party raining death from their skimmers.

Had a game vs nids today. He had no DS'ing units and i had about 4 and he also got first turn. He had like 3 units of 20 genestealers for maybe 60 total. I think by the time we finished turn 3 or 4 it was a tie or he won by one. All but one of his genestealer units was annihilated and one of his monsters died (as well as one zoanthrope later). I lost 2 ravagers and later the void raven as well as a 20 man unit of warriors. He also got first blood but i had managed to get linebreaker i think.

If i had to say he was probably winning (hard to say though) but i had been killing enough to make it an insanely close game. He also had some lucky rolls.

Basically i DS'ed so that most of my stuff hit him in the flank while he was attacking the main board normally. I basically hit him on his right flank (my left) and took him out little by little. All things considered it actually worked pretty well. He probably only had about 10 genestealers left, his remaining zoanthrope was on one wound and his hive tyrant was down 5 wounds. I need a better way to fight tyrant guard though.

Oh wait i also lost the 5 man unit of incubi so i guess i lost by one. Had it continued (store closed after our turn 4) i suppose it could've gone my way. Him getting first turn didn't help or the fact his faction has a codex and that dark eldar anti-infantry is fairly weak. That said vs genestealers poisoned attacks aren't too bad. Against hordes however poisoned shooting just doesn't do enough however.

 Amishprn86 wrote:



Looks at what i type.... Looks at what you type.


Repeats:
"Why would you charge a CC opt unit, especially Nids or Orks?

We never said charge everything with them."

Against nids and they have a 3-4man Tgant unit or 1-2 Rippers left after you shot? yes charge.. Charge a large unit? no. Charge 2-4 Hgants? Sure, charge 5+? no.
Not that hard to understand.
.

Icculus suggested charging cheap troops with kabalites, in general. I'd just replied that some of those cheap troops shouldn't be assaulted I wasn't referring specifically to you

I was simply disagreeing with the effectiveness in combat for kabalites, they're extremely weak in assault. But of course if you charge something that has low armor and low amount of wounds the tactics can be rewarding, it just seems more a move for a no brainer than a tip though Even guardsmen can kill some of those units, like 1-2 rippers or a few termagants, in combat.

By the way, I'm planning on getting one of the flyers. On paper they don't look very different, but I'm more oriented towards the bomber. The voidraven with only 2 S9 shots and a mine costs as much as a jetfighter with 2 lances, a twin splinter rifle and missile. Is the bomber better than the razorwing?

Aaranis wrote:Really ? Warriors riding in Raiders is what draws me to the army, among many things, I love the visuals of having a true pirate party raining death from their skimmers.

What i love about DE isnt good, Reavers, Venoms, Talos (i have 7 of these guys ffs). I have Corsairs for that "Pirate feel" and i love them... well did in 7th, they are gone now.

My 7th list was (and my favorite so far out of 5th-8th)
Lhamean
Lhamean
Warriors: Venom x3
Reavers: x6, x2 Caltrops x4
Scourges x5: x4 HWB
CTC 5 HWB's
DA WWP

flamingkillamajig wrote:Had a game vs nids today. He had no DS'ing units and i had about 4 and he also got first turn. He had like 3 units of 20 genestealers for maybe 60 total. I think by the time we finished turn 3 or 4 it was a tie or he won by one. All but one of his genestealer units was annihilated and one of his monsters died (as well as one zoanthrope later). I lost 2 ravagers and later the void raven as well as a 20 man unit of warriors. He also got first blood but i had managed to get linebreaker i think.

If i had to say he was probably winning (hard to say though) but i had been killing enough to make it an insanely close game. He also had some lucky rolls.

Basically i DS'ed so that most of my stuff hit him in the flank while he was attacking the main board normally. I basically hit him on his right flank (my left) and took him out little by little. All things considered it actually worked pretty well. He probably only had about 10 genestealers left, his remaining zoanthrope was on one wound and his hive tyrant was down 5 wounds. I need a better way to fight tyrant guard though.

Oh wait i also lost the 5 man unit of incubi so i guess i lost by one. Had it continued (store closed after our turn 4) i suppose it could've gone my way. Him getting first turn didn't help or the fact his faction has a codex and that dark eldar anti-infantry is fairly weak. That said vs genestealers poisoned attacks aren't too bad. Against hordes however poisoned shooting just doesn't do enough however.

GJ on doing well against them, nids is a very good codex, my favorite in 8th so far.

You know honestly i think poisoned shots aren't as bad as people make them out to be (they're currently really good at taking out genestealers). You just have to understand they're not anti-horde. They are anti-medium infantry and anything with 4+ or 5+ saves. They can also handle bikes to an extent. Even in 7th poisoned was more anti-bike (due to jink) and anti medium or ogryn and tyrant guard sized infantry.

For hordes we need to just slam our ravagers or raiders into the units and hold them in there.

I'm also mixed on scourge now. I'm mixed because while they don't have the firepower of warriors or the wounds for equal points they very much have mobility and an 18" range gun vs a 12" gun for max effect.

Since he was single-filing his genestealers due to the flank i actually was able to keep him at range longer, converge at one enemy unit to eliminate one unit of genestealers while being at range of the others and then just keep doing that to whittle him down.

If nothing else i feel like i got a moral victory killing so many freaking genestealers. Not only that but most of his units outside of the genestealers weren't very anti-infantry in nature so much as anti-vehicle.

If i had a least valuable player i'd say it was the incubi. He made rolls to save that he shouldn't have and perhaps charging them into the tyrant guard rather than the zoanthropes was a bad idea. He just sorta psychic'd them down and that allowed his unit to shoot anyway but i suppose it forced him to go for the incubi with psychic. Still wouldn't have mattered if i just murdered the zoanthropes with incubi though.

------

In 7th bikes with cluster caltrops were good. Scourge were still decent. Incubi were better but strength 4 is much worse than it ever used to be. Poison was good vs bikes and ogryn sized units.

I had this one silly build also that sorta worked fairly well. I took 4 archons (with huskblade and shadowfield) and merged them into one squad and put them in a raider and flat out towards an enemy that needed to die. Yes the strength was bad, yes the AP was kinda garbage. However the sheer amount of ranged firepower that unit could absorb was downright hilarious. I really mean that as i managed to take out a stormsurge with that unit but only just and that was 7th. Now keep in mind back then when a shadowfield failed a save the shield would still last the rest of the phase for any other hits. Strength 5 was spammed but not so much strength 6 or higher which usually got deflected when it actually did hit. Also keep in mind they had to fight the rest of my army as well. As soon as one archon failed his 2+ inv save (like how guard and tau only really were shooting armies and gun-lines hard) i would mostly be in the clear and then just switch out the closest archon for most firepower with a working shadowfield to take all the shots instead. It was so cancerous for the enemy to deal with but it was stupid and fairly good. Also any wound made was instant death (and that goes through FnP which was also prevalent on monsters) which while not the best thing ever when spammed got maybe 16 or more attacks and vs a stormsurge's 3+ armor had the potential to hurt. Probably the only good thing i made myself for dark eldar in 7th and it was pretty good like reavers and covens units.

I'm to agree that Incubi are not very impressive at the moment. Tons of attacks and the chance for some mortal wounds seem very cool, but they die just as easily as any other infantry. So they have to swing first to do anything at all, and if they fail to kill their enemy, they die the next turn. One of the requirements in 8th edition for a melee unit, is at least some durability.

4+ invuln on wyches and their point cost compared to incubi actually make them a better option. I think if you take equal points worth of wyches and incubi that the Wyches will be better against most targets. Combat Drugs, Pistols, cheaper point costs, invuln save and ability to prevent retreat (50% anyay).

Depends. Wyches have t-shirt saves outside of close combat so you need to ferry them there with transports which can be expensive. Incubi can weather overwatch shots with their 3+ armor a little better. Not only that but str 3 is depressing. Keep that in mind my issue was it's just str 4 while strength 3 in many cases would be even worse. Seriously incubi cry against toughness 5 or higher.

Incubi are way better than wyches. They do damage in melee and have a 3+ save, wyches are still 6+ guys.

5 incubi cost as much as 10 wyches with no upgrades. So if you compare 5 incubi with 8 wyches with a few special weapons (a blast pistol, agoniser and one pair of gauntlets typically) then incubi will perform better everytime. If you compare 6-7 incubi to a full kitted unit of wyches with 3 hydra gauntlets I think incubi are still superior and they have also a room for an HQ if they ride in a raider.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

I'm also mixed on scourge now. I'm mixed because while they don't have the firepower of warriors or the wounds for equal points they very much have mobility and an 18" range gun vs a 12" gun for max effect.

I don't like them in 8th. You can have better platforms for blasters and dark lances and other weapons aren't worthy. In 7th a unit with HBs could kill a vehicle in a turn or at least strip 50-66% of its HPs with average rolls. Now the same weapon can strip 1/10 of the wounds of an average vehicle.

Incubi can do more damage, but not by much. a full squad of Wyches, which would also be a troop choice would probably kill one less model of marine bikers or terminators than incubi would. maybe do one less wound on a big nasty monster than incubi,

But incubi, who would kill 2, maybe 3 of those kinds of units, would then be slaughtered in return swinging. especially from someone like terminators, or any other good combat unit. Wyches have the ability of having more wounds in the unit and having that 4++.

If Incubi had the ability to kill things in one round of combat, they would be great. If their weapons did multiple damage or they could get access to combat drugs, they would be worth it. But at the marginal increase that they have, I just don't seem them really paying off.

 Icculus wrote:
Incubi can do more damage, but not by much. a full squad of Wyches, which would also be a troop choice would probably kill one less model of marine bikers or terminators than incubi would. maybe do one less wound on a big nasty monster than incubi,

But incubi, who would kill 2, maybe 3 of those kinds of units, would then be slaughtered in return swinging. especially from someone like terminators, or any other good combat unit. Wyches have the ability of having more wounds in the unit and having that 4++.

If Incubi had the ability to kill things in one round of combat, they would be great. If their weapons did multiple damage or they could get access to combat drugs, they would be worth it. But at the marginal increase that they have, I just don't seem them really paying off.

What? How is 3 attacks at -3ap and S4 is equal to 2 attack at 0 ap with a couple -1aps?


6 Incubi is 108pts
6 Incubi Klavie: 19 attacks against MEQ thats 5.28 dead marines
On a 6 they do 2D and are S4, against Terminators they will kill 3


10 Wyches with 2 HG's and an Agoniser is 102pts +1 attack (its better, dont believe me do the math)
7 Hekatarii blades, +1 Attacks: 21 attacks, s3, -0ap, 1.5 dead
2 Hydra Gauntlets, +1 Attacks: 1 dead
Agoniser, +1 Attacks: 1 dead
Total 3.5 dead Marines, 1 Terminator

So equal points, the Incubi kills 5 marines vs 3 on the Wyches, but the Incubi are LEAPS and bounds better against Terminators they kill 1.

About survival, remember that, if you kill more, less will swing back. Wyches killing 3 and 1 means 2 and 4 get to attack back, against marines you have a worst save, but against terminators for you 4++, sadly 4 of them are swinning back, the incubi already kill 3 of them so only 2 swing back, thats 1/2 the attacks.
Dont forget that Incubi 2D on a 6 is actually very important, it helps against FnP, multi-wound guys etc...

Don't forget shooting and overwatch. Incubi will stand up to overwatch better than wyches, where incubi shouldnt be killed by it but, but wyches may lose one. but losing 1 of 10 wyches is less significant than losing 1 of 5 incubi

But against marines, the pistol shots should kill an extra marine.

So through all of the mathhammer analysis, I will agree that Incubi are stronger in melee. But not drastically so. And the ability that Wyches have to hold an objective (more models) and their ability to synergize with a succubus and take grenades I think makes them just a bit more utilitarian than incubi.

Maybe we should instead be comparing other Elite slots to the incbi. Grotesques, Bloodbrides, or Incbi? Which elite slot is best?

And Kabals do more damage than Wyches (currently) ever could. If you want to look at just troops, Kabals are king ATM.

And i wont do the math for you know... but Bloodbrides are one of the worst units in the game (currently). being 13pts for a +1 attack Wych is insane. They are 2pts less than a Troupe, which always has a 4++, and an additional +1 attack, along with a better pistol, every model can take a weapon and better pistol, finally they are troops compare to an elite.


For "Index" DE as a Melee opt unit that can fit into Raider/venoms, Incubi are very good. Beasts are also very good but can not go in vehicles. Grots and wracks are playable for melee units and i would say better than Wyches/Bloodbrides but only against S4 and S5, as they can be wounded on a 5+ with a Haemonculus and Coven lists vs mass S3 is actually a good counter.


Edit: Dont forget that we are still in Index and many things will become cheaper and better. Incubi when all index's seemed really good until codex started coming out and things got better and cheaper with Mass hordes or Mass shooting, it became important to kill off units due to ignore moral phase's and to get past bubble wrapping.

As we are seeing this is still a problem, but also changing as more codex's comes out.

It's more that str 3 is pathetic in most cases. Even the strength 4 of incubi is kinda meh. They under-performed in my game vs nids and honestly it would've been a better list without them. There's too much toughness of 5 or more in the game for incubi to be effective unless taken in numbers. Maybe against my next MEQ opponent i'll feel different.

@Blackie:

Scourge are only good with dark lances and extra bodies for ablative wounds. Normally the 36" range ensures only longer ranged weapons hit which usually don't have the numbers to take down a full squad of 10 very quickly.

Sharcarbine ones are ok on their own but not too much.

The other weapons choices are a waste of time.

I'm a Ynnari/Corsairs player, and I want to add more close combat to my army. How do Wyches and Incubi compare with Howling Banshees? Banshees have two attacks at Str3 and -3ap and a shuriken pistol, so they're sort of halfway between the two in offense, but at 13 points they're also halfway between them in points. Banshees are a lot faster than either, roughly as durable as Incubi (4+ and -1 to attack rolls against them in the Fight phase), and ignore overwatch.

Or should I just spring for a few more points and get Harlequins?

Does anyone have mathhammer to add? I think all the comparisons are just making me more confused and indecisive.

Atlatl Jones wrote:
I'm a Ynnari/Corsairs player, and I want to add more close combat to my army. How do Wyches and Incubi compare with Howling Banshees? Banshees have two attacks at Str3 and -3ap and a shuriken pistol, so they're sort of halfway between the two in offense, but at 13 points they're also halfway between them in points. Banshees are a lot faster than either, roughly as durable as Incubi (4+ and -1 to attack rolls against them in the Fight phase), and ignore overwatch.

Or should I just spring for a few more points and get Harlequins?

Harlequins are miles ahead of wyches and usually better than incubi.
With embraces, they hit harder than incubi (4 S4 AP -3 attacks for 21pts, instead of 3 for 18pts, and they also have pistols), but a little bit more fragile against AP0 weapons (you mentioned Ynnari, so I'm not including PfP here).
But on top of that, they have access to incredibly good pistols, and much better HQ choices. A troupe master really helps the overall damage output, and makes Harlequins useful against T5+ targets, where Incubi will just struggle. And of course the harlies could still engage high T targets with their pistols.

Hey guys, I got some money for my Birthday and looking to do a purchase. I am either going to buy a Razorwing or Voidraven.

I was just wondering what is the general consensus on these 2 flyers? Are they any good, do the work the same way, which is better etc.

I would also like to know the general sizes of these as well if possible. If both of them are around the same size I will probably buy 2 Razorwings and just play them as either of them. But, if the Voidraven is quite bigger then I will get one of those instead.

Thanks for the help!

fresus wrote:

Atlatl Jones wrote:
I'm a Ynnari/Corsairs player, and I want to add more close combat to my army. How do Wyches and Incubi compare with Howling Banshees? Banshees have two attacks at Str3 and -3ap and a shuriken pistol, so they're sort of halfway between the two in offense, but at 13 points they're also halfway between them in points. Banshees are a lot faster than either, roughly as durable as Incubi (4+ and -1 to attack rolls against them in the Fight phase), and ignore overwatch.

Or should I just spring for a few more points and get Harlequins?

Harlequins are miles ahead of wyches and usually better than incubi.
With embraces, they hit harder than incubi (4 S4 AP -3 attacks for 21pts, instead of 3 for 18pts, and they also have pistols), but a little bit more fragile against AP0 weapons (you mentioned Ynnari, so I'm not including PfP here).
But on top of that, they have access to incredibly good pistols, and much better HQ choices. A troupe master really helps the overall damage output, and makes Harlequins useful against T5+ targets, where Incubi will just struggle. And of course the harlies could still engage high T targets with their pistols.

I second this, Harlequins are better alround compare to anything DE has and melee opt for CWE other than Shiny Spears (they are amazing)

Odrankt wrote:Hey guys, I got some money for my Birthday and looking to do a purchase. I am either going to buy a Razorwing or Voidraven.

I was just wondering what is the general consensus on these 2 flyers? Are they any good, do the work the same way, which is better etc.

I would also like to know the general sizes of these as well if possible. If both of them are around the same size I will probably buy 2 Razorwings and just play them as either of them. But, if the Voidraven is quite bigger then I will get one of those instead.

Thanks for the help!

RWJF and Voidbombers are both really good and generally do almost the same thing but the RWJF is a bit more TAC where the Vbomber is more anti Elite infantry, or Anti T8.
Many like them more than Ravagers b.c of the -1 to hit. The RWJF can also take Dis Cannons where the Vbomber can not. But over all if you want Dis Cannons, take the Bomber with Missiles/Scythes, it is better over all. If you want a more general unit the basic RWJF is it.
The Vbomver has the Bomb but no Missiles
The Vbomber can have S9 as well, so against armies like DG, it is much better (mass spam of T8)

I personally like the Vbomber much better, i have 5 RWJF's and used them in 8th a lot, i also have Vbombers and i just highly enjoy them more and they seem to do more over all. I run 2, 1 Scythes, 1 Voidlances.

I checked eldar, harlequinns and dark eldar and i have to say the other two factions have more units that shine than dark eldar. Dark eldar are more in the middle but don't shine with as many units. It's nothing on the side of dark reapers or anything. Perhaps we can spam dark lances but i think that's it really. Then again i didn't give it the longest look.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I checked eldar, harlequinns and dark eldar and i have to say the other two factions have more units that shine than dark eldar. Dark eldar are more in the middle but don't shine with as many units. It's nothing on the side of dark reapers or anything. Perhaps we can spam dark lances but i think that's it really. Then again i didn't give it the longest look.

This is pretty much the state of the Dark Eldar until the Codex. Dark Lances are great, Kabalites are good just because they're so cheap, there are a few units that can do interesting things, but they don't currently have any outstanding choices.

Yea there is not much use over analyzing the garbage we currently have either since the book is slated for anytime in the next 4-6 weeks. Much will probably change.

So my store has some difficulties getting models in and I was thinking about dabbling in Dark Eldar and getting some models before the codex comes out and it potentially gets hard for me to get some, so what models should I start looking at besides the basic troop choices?

I'm not the expert here but as i was saying right now dark lances seem good. Hard to say what will change but i think amish or somebody said enough will stay the same that they'll probably stay decent.

Dark lances have good long distance range and do decent damage with a nice strength. Right now it's pretty much the only worthy heavy weapon on a scourge unit. I'd just like to point out at a distance scourge with dark lances do pretty well. For some reason at long range most enemies have trouble killing them quickly enough though long ranged anti-tank is actually fairly common. I've seen those dark lance scourge (in squads of 10) last longer than the ravagers so i say in some situations they can be worth it.

Of course in about a month's time this could all change so i dunno.

I think one of the two flyers, a unit of incubi, a couple of venoms and raiders should be standard units and quite safe to get even before the codex drops.

 Blackie wrote:
I think one of the two flyers, a unit of incubi, a couple of venoms and raiders should be standard units and quite safe to get even before the codex drops.

Honestly i get the feeling splinter racks will be a thing on raiders again soon so a party barge of warriors sounds very likely. We have no clue however. Considering it twin-linked splinter weapons and that has turned into 2 shots rather than re-rolls to hit i think we could get some stupid firepower from those things. 2 trueborn squads with 2 splinter cannons each for a total of 4 would throw out some nasty poisoned damage. If splinter cannons remain as they are (which they currently suck) it'd be rapid fire 3 turned to maybe rapid fire 6 if we're lucky. So 48 shots at 18" range with 4 guns not even counting all the rifles which between 6 guys at their 12" range gets another 24 shots. They probably won't do that though even though it'd make them halfway decent. The cost might be high too.

Part of my problem with this is transports cost a lot of points now. Dark eldar tend to be a mounted force (or at least had that as one of their vibes) and that's kinda not as possible anymore with the high cost. Even before 8th the extra raider upgrades were kinda meh.

I actually don't have the highest hopes for incubi. Their ap is good and their armor is good but their damage potential and strength is low. Lots of things with good armor have high toughness and multiple wounds now and possibly FnP. The basic way around multiple wounds and FnP is doing multiple wound damage but incubi can't really do that reliably. I just looked the other day at harlequinn troops and their normal squads have 4+ inv. save, advance and still charge and like multiple weapon options and they're troops. Incubi are probably ok in cost in comparison but the lack of different loadouts is a problem. The only thing incubi get is demiklaives for the squad leader and so far i've never felt the need to use one over a normal klaive except with maybe drazhar.

Have I been away from the army for so long that people aren't using Dark Eldar as a mounted force? Yowza. Raiders may be expensive, but at least in my own experience with them in 8th they're well worth the cost (more than can be said for most transports). They've got a solid anti-tank gun which doesn't become useless while you move the troops around, you can fire from it at full effectiveness while zipping 14" around the board, and you can use it as an incredibly effective assault tool to take down overwatch, tie up other tanks, and generally be a massive nuisance with the super long profile+pointy bit letting you absolutely abuse the "closest model" pile in rules.

I usually bring lots of vehicles as well. 3 ravagers are a must have, and I also bring a couple of raiders and 4-5 venoms. Venoms are definitely lackluster but since I don't own the beasts I need multiple expendable units on the ground and 5 man kabalite warriors in venoms are not that bad. Venoms are also 35 points cheaper than raiders and I don't need more than 10-12 lances anyway in my average games.

Well, the current meta kinda counters our transport lists. Even aside from Dark Reapers, most codex armies have enough firepower to pick the transports with the most points in them and wipe them off the board. Which kinda leads me to why I never take Raiders any more...


You REALLY need the -1 to hit on the Venoms. On top of that, Raiders are damn hard to hide due to the sails poking up over terrain. If it weren't for style points I'd do some modeling to Raiders to remove the sails. Plus, most units aren't worth taking in high numbers because since we're so fragile, you need the MSU. I had the exact opposite opinion early on in 8th, I was a Raider fanboy. Playing against armies where opponents were using competitive meta lists changed that real quick.

The same complaint for Ravagers. I'm honestly thinking about ditching them in favor of Scourge w/ Lances.

In my meta there's more fear of the hordes than armored stuff, and the dark reaper spam doesn't even exist, there's no player that brings more than 10.

Footslogging dudes, including scourges, really melt against massive S4-5-6 shots.

I agree about venoms and the MSU style. I'd also like to try 1-2 beastpacks with tons of birds that should help a lot. But at the moment I consider drukhari almost unplayable in any semi-competitive meta or better ones, sadly,

 Blackie wrote:
But at the moment I consider drukhari almost unplayable in any semi-competitive meta or better ones, sadly,

Yeah, I'm souring on them very quickly at the moment. I'm simply finding that they don't bring enough firepower to justify how fragile they are. They're not even remarkably fast as an army.

 Chippen wrote:
Well, the current meta kinda counters our transport lists. Even aside from Dark Reapers, most codex armies have enough firepower to pick the transports with the most points in them and wipe them off the board. Which kinda leads me to why I never take Raiders any more...


You REALLY need the -1 to hit on the Venoms. On top of that, Raiders are damn hard to hide due to the sails poking up over terrain. If it weren't for style points I'd do some modeling to Raiders to remove the sails. Plus, most units aren't worth taking in high numbers because since we're so fragile, you need the MSU. I had the exact opposite opinion early on in 8th, I was a Raider fanboy. Playing against armies where opponents were using competitive meta lists changed that real quick.

The same complaint for Ravagers. I'm honestly thinking about ditching them in favor of Scourge w/ Lances.

I have MANY games with Scourges vs Ravagers.

Scourges are 1 hit wonders, always (I played with 5 units of them)
Ravagers at least in ALL my games have had 1-3 live almost all game (again i had 5 of them)

I will never take Scourges again via Index honestly, they do the same damage and 1/4 the survivability after turn 1.

Ive been playing with 3 Ravagers and 2 Reapers lately, the Reapers stopping advancements is awesome, and since we have fly, i just start on/in terrain in places that i dont need to move if i can help it, I normally dont move them for 3 turns at least.

If you are playing Raiders and Venoms you NEED Haemonculus on the field, T6 is important, HB like go from 4+ to 5+, assault cannon like goes from 3+ to 4+, the few S10 are no 3+ and mass S3 are now 5+ to 6+
If you are IG/Daemon or SM meta area its important, tho... against CWE it doesnt matter to much due to mass S5/6/8

I say it depends. If you face an enemy that is all about being up in your face with alpha strike then yeah scourge fall flat on their faces. However against armies that start off from a distance and move up or just shoot from range the scourge with dark lances are better. I think it's more about what you're facing.

Either wasy Ravagers are more survivable tho. they have same range, but Ravagers can move and fire without penalty, have higher toughness, better saves, and more wounds FOR THE SAME POINTS. Especially against mid-range armies or walking ones with same range (36" b.c we can be 12" or more out and then move and shoot, can even advance and shoot), also slower armies like Daemons need to advance, another reason a Reaper is better.

Scourges are only better in one situation, you can kept hem alive through an Alpha strike via DSing them.

I don't like scourges. Our army is basically full of T5-6 multiwounds models, we don't have many footsloggers. And all the anti infantry goes to the scourges, that are still very squishy dudes.

If they arrive by deepstrike with dark lances they hit on 4s. I think ravagers and flyers are way more effective since they compete to soak the same weapons. With fielding scourges you're offering your opponent a good target for his anti infantry.

If only HBs could knock 75%+ off the wounds of a vehicle in a single turn, I'd use them a lot, like I did in the previous edition. Right now they seem kinda useless to me.

Even with shardcarbines they fail to be useful, I'd just bring 5 kabalites in a venoms instead.

If scourges were not the same cost (well 10pts difference) for 1/2 the wounds and 1/2 the toughness. If they were cheaper be a ok amount, then that would be a different story.

If I recall correctly the Scourge deepstrike does not count as a move so they do not get a -1 to hit when they land unless it has been FAQ-ed somewhere.

Also noticed this on a Drukhari group regarding the upcoming codex.

No more trueborns in our codex.
Covens/wyches/kabal will have bonuses when in pure detachments.
Bikes are back, with CC turn 1.
Haemonculus will be a must have.

Apparently taken from this video, but I do not speak French so I could be wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr-FdqLoKHo&feature=youtu.be

If trueborns are gone and nothing else (Kabals) to put in there place (I would think Bloodbrides are gone now too then), then that is fething stupid, DE has already had many units taken away.

But "ON a Positive note" i have talked to someone with the codex (he wont say much). He is trying to ensure me that its a great codex and i will like it.

If there is any (? French) speakers i would love to know whats in it.

Are these rumour things? Perhaps make a seperate thread then, of speculation creep is gonne come intp it.

I would love to have good bikes again. Or scourges. While I love every 5th edition DE model, I also really love the old 'gargoyle crouching' scourges.

It's just so little info that I wasn't sure if it would warrant a whole rumor thread.

There is apparently a thread going on in the Dark City with some more info, but as you said it is perhaps best to avoid more rumor creep.

I've personally tried to phase out my 3rd Edition Drukhari as they are starting to look a bit silly. I do like the old bikes however.

 Eldarsif wrote:
It's just so little info that I wasn't sure if it would warrant a whole rumor thread.

There is apparently a thread going on in the Dark City with some more info, but as you said it is perhaps best to avoid more rumor creep.

I've personally tried to phase out my 3rd Edition Drukhari as they are starting to look a bit silly. I do like the old bikes however.

A yes, the dark city. Where the grass is green and the girls are pritty. Or so the broshure at the local travel agensy says.

Its a dedicated DE website, yeah they will have a lot more talk and more to say over there, same for any army dedicated website.

But i agree, lets not talk about it here, this is a tactics thread not a rumor one.

French is my mother tongue, I could watch the video later if you want. If you create a thread let me know so that I post in the right place.

The only French I speak is a few slang terms and curse words I picked up from my Cajun family so I can't help much there.

Leaks/rumors starting already though? Laissez les bon temps rouler!

 Eldarsif wrote:
If I recall correctly the Scourge deepstrike does not count as a move so they do not get a -1 to hit when they land unless it has been FAQ-ed somewhere.

Also noticed this on a Drukhari group regarding the upcoming codex.

No more trueborns in our codex.
Covens/wyches/kabal will have bonuses when in pure detachments.
Bikes are back, with CC turn 1.
Haemonculus will be a must have.

Apparently taken from this video, but I do not speak French so I could be wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr-FdqLoKHo&feature=youtu.be

Hybrid confirmed most of that for me since he speaks french and here's some of what he said.

"you can get a heamonculus army that has -1 ap on everyone in CC (coven trait?)"

"dark lances on scourges: you can get 4 max and they are better than before ?"

"confirmed that they removed true born at 1:52:03"

"so you'll have wyches trait for your wyches, kabal trait for your kabalites and heamonculus trait for your heamonculus! No incubus cult."

"bikes move 18" can advance 8" (?), you can advance and charge, you can reroll something"

"whats good apparenlty (what they advise beginners to buy) : basic troops (kabalite, wyches), bikes (get between 6 and 9, should be able to charge on first turn)"

"they imply that it's good to have detachment for each subpart of the codex (kabal, wych cult, can't remember the English name of the last one) in the same army"

"someone is asking “Will Drukhari be super good” they answered “We don't know but if we start an army here it's because we think they are going to be good” and the other one “yeah I'm going to play them in tournaments” and the first one “In tournaments? Yeah it's true that this codex is very polyvalent you can make a really funny list or some very competitive one” basically"

"he also says that since chapter approved GW had a plan for each armies and some were hordes like with daemons, other were elite like with custodes, and DE are the first “MSU” army. one said army to harass, the other say “you see harass I see an army that goes in your face and **** you up!”"

Please note that most of the info is given in a “wink wink we are not leaking anything wink wink” so I'm interpreting a bit .
For instance the bike things, I don't know if this is with the use of stratagems or anything.

Thanks for the info, I don't really have the courage to rummage through 3 hours of video actually

If they're giving boni specific to each sub-faction, they better make the HQs good. I only ever planned on playing Kabalites and Haemonculi, but for someone who plays tourneys and is limited to 3 Detachments I can see one going Kabalite Battalion, and two 1 CP Detachments. It disturbs me that they chose to do sub-faction limitations, but we'll see with the actual previews and the codex in itself before having drastic opinions.

Dark eldar have rarly been an alfa strike army in the usual sence.

'Classic dark eldar' is usually a butkiad if superior firepower, with superior mobilaty and no defense. Take out your opponents long range capabilaties. When theyr reach is down, you dance around them until they are relativly limp. With what remains of the dark eldar (because they have been dying like flies) you start ganging up on the opponents remaining forces in chewable pieces. The big weakness is often that you have a hard time fighting big blobs, witch is where the melee elements often comes in.

Of course haemonculy builds differ very much from this. Not unlike the craftworld cusins wraight builds.

I hope we get some good boats. :-)

I think my issue is if you want all 3 sub-faction bonuses you need 'pure' separate armies for all 3 sub-factions. If i wanna do bikes i need wych detachment. If i want grotesques or talos i need a haemonculus detachment. It's the split between all 3 that can be a hard combo. That said i may just end up with one 'pure' detachment and the rest mixed together. It really depends i guess. I never used haemies much but they sound good now.

To those that play them, how are the 2 airplanes? Do yiu not pay extra for super sonic. And then gey get ignored and shoot your boats? What is their strategical advantage?

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
If I recall correctly the Scourge deepstrike does not count as a move so they do not get a -1 to hit when they land unless it has been FAQ-ed somewhere.

Also noticed this on a Drukhari group regarding the upcoming codex.

No more trueborns in our codex.
Covens/wyches/kabal will have bonuses when in pure detachments.
Bikes are back, with CC turn 1.
Haemonculus will be a must have.

Apparently taken from this video, but I do not speak French so I could be wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr-FdqLoKHo&feature=youtu.be

Hybrid confirmed most of that for me since he speaks french and here's some of what he said.

"you can get a heamonculus army that has -1 ap on everyone in CC (coven trait?)"

"dark lances on scourges: you can get 4 max and they are better than before ?"

"confirmed that they removed true born at 1:52:03"

"so you'll have wyches trait for your wyches, kabal trait for your kabalites and heamonculus trait for your heamonculus! No incubus cult."

"bikes move 18" can advance 8" (?), you can advance and charge, you can reroll something"

"whats good apparenlty (what they advise beginners to buy) : basic troops (kabalite, wyches), bikes (get between 6 and 9, should be able to charge on first turn)"

"they imply that it's good to have detachment for each subpart of the codex (kabal, wych cult, can't remember the English name of the last one) in the same army"

"someone is asking “Will Drukhari be super good” they answered “We don't know but if we start an army here it's because we think they are going to be good” and the other one “yeah I'm going to play them in tournaments” and the first one “In tournaments? Yeah it's true that this codex is very polyvalent you can make a really funny list or some very competitive one” basically"

"he also says that since chapter approved GW had a plan for each armies and some were hordes like with daemons, other were elite like with custodes, and DE are the first “MSU” army. one said army to harass, the other say “you see harass I see an army that goes in your face and **** you up!”"

This is already DE tho and always has been, when your transports are 5, or 10 unit complicity, and you can not put characters and a 5/10man into the same transports, especially with 5/10man units for special weapons. Or when units gain 1 Weapon per guy, there is no point in going up to 10 guys (All Coven are like this and Wyches/Kabals are better in 5mans due to Sargent weapons or the +1 LD and more special weapons over heavy weapons). Then units like Scourges that you get 4 per squad, so why not just do MSU of 5mans? The Drugs are worded so if you get 6 units of 1 of each drug you can now just pick w/e one you actually want for other units. Court being single models, Beast Masters and Beast being separate units, etc..

DE always and still is a MSU army, if GW made them horde or Elite that would mean they do not understand 40k at all lol.

Edit: Grammar

 Niiai wrote:
To those that play them, how are the 2 airplanes? Do yiu not pay extra for super sonic. And then gey get ignored and shoot your boats? What is their strategical advantage?

I've usually run one Razorwing Jetfighter and one Voidraven Bomber. My experience is that they are a decent distraction carnifex that can do a lot of damage if they get ignored and are allowed to fly around and take shots at things.

Razorwings at least used to be popular(and were sold out for a long time) as they are decent so I wonder how much they'll change in the codex. For the Voidraven bomber I at least hope for a slight point reduction.

You dont need Super sonic at all, unless you are playing on 16' of table lol.

I favor the bomber over the RWJF, its 14pts difference and it always does more damage than the RWJF for me.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
If I recall correctly the Scourge deepstrike does not count as a move so they do not get a -1 to hit when they land unless it has been FAQ-ed somewhere.

Also noticed this on a Drukhari group regarding the upcoming codex.

No more trueborns in our codex.
Covens/wyches/kabal will have bonuses when in pure detachments.
Bikes are back, with CC turn 1.
Haemonculus will be a must have.

Apparently taken from this video, but I do not speak French so I could be wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr-FdqLoKHo&feature=youtu.be

Hybrid confirmed most of that for me since he speaks french and here's some of what he said.

"you can get a heamonculus army that has -1 ap on everyone in CC (coven trait?)"

"dark lances on scourges: you can get 4 max and they are better than before ?"

"confirmed that they removed true born at 1:52:03"

"so you'll have wyches trait for your wyches, kabal trait for your kabalites and heamonculus trait for your heamonculus! No incubus cult."

"bikes move 18" can advance 8" (?), you can advance and charge, you can reroll something"

"whats good apparenlty (what they advise beginners to buy) : basic troops (kabalite, wyches), bikes (get between 6 and 9, should be able to charge on first turn)"

"they imply that it's good to have detachment for each subpart of the codex (kabal, wych cult, can't remember the English name of the last one) in the same army"

"someone is asking “Will Drukhari be super good” they answered “We don't know but if we start an army here it's because we think they are going to be good” and the other one “yeah I'm going to play them in tournaments” and the first one “In tournaments? Yeah it's true that this codex is very polyvalent you can make a really funny list or some very competitive one” basically"

"he also says that since chapter approved GW had a plan for each armies and some were hordes like with daemons, other were elite like with custodes, and DE are the first “MSU” army. one said army to harass, the other say “you see harass I see an army that goes in your face and **** you up!”"

This codex is already sounding like complete garbage.

So business as usual for DE.

Scourges can already have max 4 dark lances in a single squad.

I'd really like viable bikes and coven stuff since I have tons of those units. I'm quite pissed about the trueborn mostly because many players including me have converted a few kabalites into them and don't know how to with their 8+ blaster guys now

I'm planning on getting a bomber, even before the codex. I found a new model with a nice discount and the razorwing is really too close to a ravager.

 Blackie wrote:
Scourges can already have max 4 dark lances in a single squad.

I'd really like viable bikes and coven stuff since I have tons of those units. I'm quite pissed about the trueborn mostly because many players including me have converted a few kabalites into them and don't know how to with their 8+ blaster guys now

I'm planning on getting a bomber, even before the codex. I found a new model with a nice discount and the razorwing is really too close to a ravager.

It's funny because the other day I was having a conversation and I actually said that I wouldn't care if trueborn were removed and that I actually thought it may happen. They are more then 50% the cost of a Kabalite. They are irrelevant. Back in 5th when you could take three all with blasters they priced out efficiently but now they are in this strange spot. I can get 5 obsec guys with a blaster for 50 or I can get 5 elite slot fellas with a blaster for 70, thats the same profile except for that extra attack you pay 4 points for lol. Sure you can take another blaster and that pushes them to 85, meanwhile I'd rather just buy a second warrior squad which may cost me 100, but I now have twice the wounds, 2 squads and extra splinter fire as well as being much closer to another battalion.

All they should do is change the amount of specials or heavies a squad of warriors can take by making it 1 heavy and special under 10 models and 10 or more models allows for an extra heavy or special. Right now it forces you to take a full 20 which is stupid.

There's also the issue that they never released a kit, which forces players to get creative when acquiring blasters. I am not to upset, I have already found min warriors squads to be superior in every way. I mean, if I want more heavy or special weapons on a 5 man team why wouldn't I just take scourge, for 3 points I get superior mobility and better armor plus access to more gear (granted half of it doesn't work currently).

I am intrigued by the rumor for reavers. That makes them insanely fast. 26" move plus an average 7 inch assault means they can deploy normally, jump scout screens and still hit the backfield guns, silencing them by tying them up and there is not much to do to block them since they have fly unless they really cramp their deployment zone (which will happen but kind of forces them into a kill box).

 Red Corsair wrote:
It's funny because the other day I was having a conversation and I actually said that I wouldn't care if trueborn were removed and that I actually thought it may happen. They are more then 50% the cost of a Kabalite. They are irrelevant.

This is something that could have been easily fixed though. They didn't just have to remove them altogether.

Frankly, I think that's been done to DE enough already.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Back in 5th when you could take three all with blasters they priced out efficiently but now they are in this strange spot. I can get 5 obsec guys with a blaster for 50 or I can get 5 elite slot fellas with a blaster for 70, thats the same profile except for that extra attack you pay 4 points for lol. Sure you can take another blaster and that pushes them to 85, meanwhile I'd rather just buy a second warrior squad which may cost me 100, but I now have twice the wounds, 2 squads and extra splinter fire as well as being much closer to another battalion.

They seem to have a ridiculous opportunity cost. Devastators, for example, can get more heavy weapons than tactical marines, but they don't pay extra points for it in their case cost. They also have a sergeant with a useful ability - as opposed to the completely worthless Dracon that Trueborn are stuck with.

Trueborn should be - at most - 1pt more than regular warriors (since they have an extra attack, however worthless it is).

 Red Corsair wrote:

All they should do is change the amount of specials or heavies a squad of warriors can take by making it 1 heavy and special under 10 models and 10 or more models allows for an extra heavy or special. Right now it forces you to take a full 20 which is stupid.

It would also be nice if the transport capacity of Raiders and Venoms was increased by 1. So that characters are actually allowed to ride with their squads.

Transport fix has been begged for for ages, I really hope they get it right this time.

I actually hope the dracon returns as a second in command model. It always annoyed me that they made the lieutenant versions of archons and archites (succubus) sergeants for ham fisted elites.

I get that folks are used to trueborn and bloodbrides, but I have a feeling those same folks didn't play DE prior to 5th. Back in the day normal warriors and wyches were amazing. Now they are a troop tax. I'd rather we had more elite acting troops.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I actually hope the dracon returns as a second in command model. It always annoyed me that they made the lieutenant versions of archons and archites (succubus) sergeants for ham fisted elites.

Yeah, that was a really annoying. They didn't even make them the equivalent of Eldar Exarchs.

 Red Corsair wrote:

I get that folks are used to trueborn and bloodbrides, but I have a feeling those same folks didn't play DE prior to 5th. Back in the day normal warriors and wyches were amazing. Now they are a troop tax. I'd rather we had more elite acting troops.

That's very true, I've only played since 5th.

Could you give me an idea of what Warriors used to be like?

They could get double special and double heavy at 10 models for warriors and wyches were drastically different. They also could get two specials and could take them on 5 man squads. So you had wyches running around with blasters which was amazing. They also ended up updating the wych profiles and instead of having 3 unique weapons like they are again now, they just said the whole team counted as using gladiatorial gear. So whiches had the 4++ in combat but the wych weapons said enemies lost their bonus attack for extra CCW (which is dated now) and so long as the enemy was not double the strength of the wyches (so 6) they halved their weapon skill while in combat with them. Still had drugs back then, in fact there were two types, the once per game roll and then the wargear version wich any character could take. The wargear version let you take any of the 6 boosts any number of time, but you rolled a die per use and any doubles caused a wound. So when you knew your guy was bonned you could make a huge gamble, I remember rolling 4 dice with no doubles on a sybarite once and mulching a unit.

So long story short, they don't seem amazing now, but you need to understand that the context was 3rd edition, and they were pretty amazing back then. Especially wyches, i remember being so bummed when they went BACK to the lame 1 per 3 models unique gear and on top of that lost the ability to take blasters. Then I was equally miffed when I noticed they reduced the options on basic warriors, then created an elite version. Granted trueborn got more options, but I have always like my basic troops to be decent. Heck even incubi had a tormenter helm lol. It was just a pistol but it always made them like dark scorpians.

Not expecting to revert to all the old stuff (like biker archons lol) but it wouldn't bother me if they simply boost the actual troops rather then trying to make are guys just like space marines. All our stuff should act elite at it's roll, no need for two tiered versions. At least in my opinion.

 Red Corsair wrote:
They could get double special and double heavy at 10 models for warriors and wyches were drastically different. They also could get two specials and could take them on 5 man squads. So you had wyches running around with blasters which was amazing. They also ended up updating the wych profiles and instead of having 3 unique weapons like they are again now, they just said the whole team counted as using gladiatorial gear. So whiches had the 4++ in combat but the wych weapons said enemies lost their bonus attack for extra CCW (which is dated now) and so long as the enemy was not double the strength of the wyches (so 6) they halved their weapon skill while in combat with them. Still had drugs back then, in fact there were two types, the once per game roll and then the wargear version wich any character could take. The wargear version let you take any of the 6 boosts any number of time, but you rolled a die per use and any doubles caused a wound. So when you knew your guy was bonned you could make a huge gamble, I remember rolling 4 dice with no doubles on a sybarite once and mulching a unit.

So long story short, they don't seem amazing now, but you need to understand that the context was 3rd edition, and they were pretty amazing back then. Especially wyches, i remember being so bummed when they went BACK to the lame 1 per 3 models unique gear and on top of that lost the ability to take blasters. Then I was equally miffed when I noticed they reduced the options on basic warriors, then created an elite version. Granted trueborn got more options, but I have always like my basic troops to be decent. Heck even incubi had a tormenter helm lol. It was just a pistol but it always made them like dark scorpians.

Not expecting to revert to all the old stuff (like biker archons lol) but it wouldn't bother me if they simply boost the actual troops rather then trying to make are guys just like space marines. All our stuff should act elite at it's roll, no need for two tiered versions. At least in my opinion.

Thanks for explaining that. Yeah, I can definitely see why you'd prefer the old versions of Warriors and Wyches.

On the one hand, I agree with you - it would be nice if our troops were a bit more elite. Letting them take additional special weapons might help them live up to their role as glass cannons.

On the other hand, it would be nice if a DE codex could actually have more units in it than the previous one - as opposed the more recent books which have had fewer units (not to mention wargear and such).

You and me both mate, I wish so bad we could at least have our faction lead boss. Makes no sense that Vect isn't getting ANY attention. I mean then there is the fact I have a Baron, Duke and Decapitator conversions that have no rules

Oh well, Not excited to see any units go, but at the end of the day, if they do it right I think we will be OK. I am cautiously optimistic at this point.

I don't think we'll get new units in the codex without the release of new kits/models. Since we're not SM or chaos I guess the ynnari guys will be our only release for years

Although I get why we are losing BB and TB it still hurts considering we've already lost so many units over the years.

I also think they won't boost special/heavy weapon loadout in normal squads.There is a growing selection of Drukhari weapons on places like Shapeways and they might very well want to nip that in the bud.

I won't judge yet, since we know literally next to nothing, but rumors indicating that bonuses will be tied solely to full <wych cult> <kabal> etc detachments is...noooot encouraging.

Dark Eldar are a mercenary faction. They always have been. The answer to "why is there one haemonculus and a Talos working with the Kabal" is always plainly and simply "they paid him".

The simplest, easiest option to leave the army functional and playable would be to put in a Brood Brothers style rule where you select either <Kabal> <Wych Cult> or <Coven> and the units in your army that have that get a trait, and units in the army that don't but are still Dark Eldar do not cause you to lose that trait.

Then all youd have to do is ensure that the traits are reasonably impactful (because they'd likely be affecting even fewer units than Space Marine traits) and you're off to a good start making Dark Eldar feel fluffy and reasonable trade offs.

Just make our Troop and HQ units into things that are useful to take multiples of, and you've got yourself a functional dark eldar army. Please GW. Look at a wych. now look at a genestealer. Now look back at a wych. One of these things should be roughly the same power as the other one, and they obviously are not.

It's a bit (a lot) of a stretch to think Wyches should be directly comparable to Genestealers. If we start comparing directly unit to unit without taking into context both internal balance of the Codex and external balance between them, the only possible end to that road is generic grey blob units on the board that all do exactly the same thing.

Like sure, we don't have a dickpunch melee unit quite like the Genestealers, but the 'Nids also don't have a 155 pt gunboat that can move 14", has a 5++, and can shoot ghetto lascannons at full Ballistic Skill.

Am I saying we're balanced relative to Tyranids, or any Codex army? Well, other than the poor Grey Knights maybe, no. But make the right comparison - Codex to Codex, not unit to unit.

Honestly we were a top 3 Index army. There were a lot of useless units and sure you had to make a Craftworld plugin detachment to be competitive, but that was true of everyone on the useless units side and everyone who could take other factions did. We're only as bad as we are due to other armies having their full book.

 Chippen wrote:

Like sure, we don't have a dickpunch melee unit quite like the Genestealers, but the 'Nids also don't have a 155 pt gunboat that can move 14", has a 5++, and can shoot ghetto lascannons at full Ballistic Skill.

That's true. Theirs is a little more expensive and only moves 12" but has a 4++, deep strikes, and is great in CC.

You totally missed the point, but hey if you like to cherrypick from people's posts to make a snarky reply, you do you.

That was flippant. More seriously, if you want Wyches to be useful there's only so many ways you can go with them. If you don't want them to be like Genestealers then what do you want? Like, right now they're very fragile, they're pretty slow at getting into combat, and they don't do much damage once they get there. You need to fix two of these in order for anyone to want to take them. Genestealers, Berzerkers, and Death Company are a bit more durable, much faster (with support), and do much more damage, and not coincidentally they're the only dedicated CC units that see much play. I feel like it'd be weird to make Wyches super-durable, and they also shouldn't be particularly slow, so I'm not really sure what's left other than to make them a lot like Genestealers.

Talking about how we should be thinking about codex vs codex balance rather than unit vs unit sounds nice, but this is a lot less meaningful than some people think. It is actually pretty rare (I can't actually think of an example) for one codex to have a unit which is noticeably outclassed by a unit in another codex but which still sees lots of play because it has another unit which is particularly good at a totally different job. What actually happens is that you just spam the thing your codex does well and don't take the things that are overpriced relative to units in other codices. Or you play Imperial or Chaos Soup and just bring super powerful stuff in every slot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chippen wrote:
You totally missed the point, but hey if you like to cherrypick from people's posts to make a snarky reply, you do you.

I mean, certainly my post was flippant, but I'm not seeing how I missed the point. Could you explain? I took you to be saying that, yeah, Wyches aren't as good as Genestealers but then Tyranids aren't as good at shooting so that makes up for it. My first post was pointing out that actually Tyranids are just about as good at shooting if they want to be. A Hive Tyrant is certainly a scarier gunboat than a Ravager.

I don't think making sure that CC units in different armies are all actually good requires making them all the same, but there are things that you have to somehow accomplish in order to be a good CC unit. So, sure, keep Wyches at 9 points whereas Genestealers are 12, and make Wyches therefore proportionally worse, or give them slightly different focuses such that the Wyches are way better against GEQs but not as good against Predators, but if they're a significantly worse overall choice per point then don't expect anyone to use them. Having really efficient gunboats and inefficient CC units just means that DE armies are going to consist of lots of gunboats and no CC units.

It's weird how we kind of agree but for the wrong reasons? Haha.

Yeah the end result of what we've got is "spam the thing you're good at" and what I'm basically saying is that it's unrealistic and frankly silly for every single codex to have equally powerful units for assaulting infantry, shooting infantry, shooting tanks, punching tanks, transport, deep strike, mechanized, horde, elite, alpha strike... see what I'm getting at? If every army does every single thing equally well and exactly the same, we may as well just have one faction in the game. There is and should be a rock paper scissors element to the game, that's why list building as a thing.

I agree Wyches need changing. I see it as killing infantry and getting there quickly through some transport synergy personally, but comparing blindly their offensive output to Genestealers, a totally different unit, is a silly comparison, as is any unit comparison in a vacuum.

 Chippen wrote:
It's a bit (a lot) of a stretch to think Wyches should be directly comparable to Genestealers. If we start comparing directly unit to unit without taking into context both internal balance of the Codex and external balance between them, the only possible end to that road is generic grey blob units on the board that all do exactly the same thing.

I think the problem is that there's only so many ways that a unit can be good at melee and yet still be different from other units that are also good at melee.

It's even trickier when those units basically need to fulfil the same mechanical role. Wyches are supposed to be fast, agile and deadly in combat. Genestealers are supposed to be fast, agile and deadly in combat.

I think by trying to differentiate these units too much, you just end up with at least one of them being basically nonfunctional.

Another problem is that Wyches are also competing with Harlequins, which are more expensive but are otherwise exactly what wyches should be.

Finally, you've got the problem that nothing in the DE codex makes any significant difference to Wyches. It's not like in Warmachine when different warcasters can drastically change how a faction plays and which units are good. In DE, you've only really got a few negligible buffs.

If anything, you'd actually expect Wyches to be better than Genestealers on their own - since DE have far fewer and far worse force multipliers, compared to Tyranids.

 Chippen wrote:

Like sure, we don't have a dickpunch melee unit quite like the Genestealers, but the 'Nids also don't have a 155 pt gunboat that can move 14", has a 5++, and can shoot ghetto lascannons at full Ballistic Skill.

Sure, But us having that gunboat doesn't make wyches good - it just makes the aforementioned gunboat good. Hell, even our actual transports don't make wyches good - because they've been designed to prevent wyches taking advantage of them (Open Topped no longer helps melee units in any way).


Basically, the context of different codices is irrelevant - because there's simply nothing in the DE codex that makes up for wyches being bad. At best there are other, better units that we can take instead of wyches.

 Chippen wrote:
It's weird how we kind of agree but for the wrong reasons? Haha.

Yeah the end result of what we've got is "spam the thing you're good at" and what I'm basically saying is that it's unrealistic and frankly silly for every single codex to have equally powerful units for assaulting infantry, shooting infantry, shooting tanks, punching tanks, transport, deep strike, mechanized, horde, elite, alpha strike... see what I'm getting at? If every army does every single thing equally well and exactly the same, we may as well just have one faction in the game. There is and should be a rock paper scissors element to the game, that's why list building as a thing.

I agree Wyches need changing. I see it as killing infantry and getting there quickly through some transport synergy personally, but comparing blindly their offensive output to Genestealers, a totally different unit, is a silly comparison, as is any unit comparison in a vacuum.

I just don't see how you accomplish this without making them look a lot like diet Genestealers. You want them to be good at killing infantry? Well then they're going to need lots of attacks. Genestealers in a big unit make back about 51% of their points against Guardsmen. Presumably you want Wyches to do better than this since Genestealers are S4 AP-1 with rending such that they're also fantastic against bigger targets (they make back about 96% of their points vs Marines and are quite good anti-tank). With WS3+ S3 on a 9 point model, you need 6 attacks to out-do Genestealers against GEQs (this would then be much worse against MEQs and tanks). Meanwhile they already look a lot like Genestealers defensively -- bolters are just about as good vs either. Is that a blind comparison to you? I feel like this is a pretty good way to figure out what they'd need in order for anyone to even consider taking them.

Granted, a lot of the 8th edition codices make it worthwhile to take a single unit of something that would otherwise not be great by providing some strong stratagems -- Craftworld Guardians are still not particularly good on their own but you sometimes see one big unit thanks to some stratagem support. If there's a stratagem to disembark after a transport moves, that'll make it a lot easier to take a single CC unit, though if you don't get first turn it's not going to be pretty. Likewise a "fight again" stratagem can be nice. But I really do have a hard time seeing what you could possibly do with Wyches to make them a solid unit that you'd happily take 2 or 3 of that doesn't look a lot like an S3 AP0 Genestealer.

Sorry, if you want a unit to be a troop slot unit and (presumably) the ONLY troop slot unit you're allowed to take for a particular sort of detachment, they have to be decent at something for their points.

You can't say "Hey, you're bad but at least you can take a separate detachment, ally it in, and have a ravager!" because that's functionally identical as saying that the whole codex can be crap because you can take a separate detachment and have Dark Reapers.

I agree you have to compare within the codex - but you also have to recognize that despite being physically on the same PAGES, GW has decreed that the assault elements of DE are functionally a different faction than the (good) shooting elements of DE. So you can't really have DE as an analogue to Tau where they're good at shooting and bad at CC so their CC units are weak.

Particularly because..that's not their fluff at all. Wyches are not some auxiliary unit that the DE take to have some kind of chance in cc, like the kroot are for Tau. They're supposed to be highly skilled fighters taking down powerful opponents with simple weaponry to make a show out of it.

Genestealers and Wyches are only analogous because while the fluff is really different (by fluff, Wyches should be some kind of anti-elite specialist, or an adaptive fighter or something, while Genestealers are super fast blender glass cannons) the function is about the same. Because wyches suuuuuuuuuuck at killing elite units, and pretty much only have a snowballs chance if theyre up against a cheap helpless chaff horde. What they really want to be killing - a super weak no-defenses body with a crazy expensive but low attacks weapon - doesn't really exist commonly. Repentia? GSC aberrants? I don't know. But the bizarre combination of zero damage and invuln-based defenses that disappear into a cloud of nothing the second you leave combat clearly doesn't work.

But we can't make these some kind of stratagem reliant one trick pony if we also want to require players to take either entire detachments of them or none at all. That's not how to fix them. They need to do something compelling with their basic stats and abilities.

You know to an extent while trueborn are nice i'm not sure they're super needed. Hear me out. Transports cost a lot of points. I already showed you guys that for the most part a void raven with dark scythes does more than 4 blasterborn in a venom but with a much better profile (more wounds, better toughness, harder to get in combat with, has better range, has a one use bomb as well, doesn't care if an enemy does engage it in melee as it'll fly away and can still shoot). The only issues with a void raven is it'll be visible regardless of how you place it as it's just so freaking huge (so LoS) and the other issue is having to constantly turn from time to time as per the rules or it'll crash and burn. Also if i remember you can be wiped off the board if you lose everything but flyers.

I still vouch for dark lance scourge in 10 man units at long range. It tends to be good unless somebody DS's near em turn one in which case they're boned. Otherwise most factions didn't have the firepower to kill the full squad with shooting at about 3 feet away in cover.

----------

Or you know what they could do with wyches is give them a 4+ or 5+ inv. save at all times instead of just in combat and maybe make it rise to 4+ or so in close combat.

I'd be ok with 2A base for wyches and the possibility of getting 2 special melee weapons every 5 guys. A unit that is supposed to be close combat specialist can't have just 1A in its profile.

 Blackie wrote:
I'd be ok with 2A base for wyches and the possibility of getting 2 special melee weapons every 5 guys. A unit that is supposed to be close combat specialist can't have just 1A in its profile.

The wych weapons either need to be given the 3rd edition treatment, where the fancy looking items are their for modeling and the whole unit is counted as having a built in benefit for their gladiatorial skill with any of their gear OR and more realistically they need to make the special weapons more important. Right now they suck, they cost WAY too much and it's hard to imagine how they fix them without retaining their high end price. I would like shard nets to actually do something, I think auto passing no escape against one unit would be fun. No idea how to fix the other two, they are effectively the same lame weapon (they look awesome) and I can't imagine they will function much different then they do now. If they give them a high rend I can see taking them, but if they remain a wet paper bag attack then your almost always going to be better off taking more wyches.

I think wyches need to be able to advance and charge, as well as fall back and charge as a stratagem at least. Beyond that they need a high amount of attacks. Giving them 2 base attacks, 3 with the hekatari blade as well as making the blade ap -1 would make wyches much more appealing, they still die to a stiff fart, but if they get there they will mulch infantry and be annoying to elites.

Cult tactics and stratagems will probably be key to making these work. I am hoping DE get a generic stratagem that lets them move their transport before disembarking, or lets them disembark from a vehicle that assaulted and count as charging the same enemy. I think that would be fluffy.

the_scotsman wrote:
Sorry, if you want a unit to be a troop slot unit and (presumably) the ONLY troop slot unit you're allowed to take for a particular sort of detachment, they have to be decent at something for their points.

You can't say "Hey, you're bad but at least you can take a separate detachment, ally it in, and have a ravager!" because that's functionally identical as saying that the whole codex can be crap because you can take a separate detachment and have Dark Reapers.

I agree you have to compare within the codex - but you also have to recognize that despite being physically on the same PAGES, GW has decreed that the assault elements of DE are functionally a different faction than the (good) shooting elements of DE. So you can't really have DE as an analogue to Tau where they're good at shooting and bad at CC so their CC units are weak.

The thing is I think this whole mentality is outdated.
It might have made sense nearly two decades ago when the FOC was the FOC and that was all you got.
Therefore armies tended to be similar because you had more limited options. Your fast attack units might be good which justified your heavy support not being so good.

But even then it was suspect, and today if you have a codex of good units and bad units, the bad units simply don't get used.

Wyches either need to be very cheap chaff units (not exactly fluffy but it gives them a function) or lethal. And making them lethal just requires too much (+1 attack, -1 AP, movement abilities etc etc).

I can see them getting a points reduction and still being useless.

Tyel wrote:

Wyches either need to be very cheap chaff units (not exactly fluffy but it gives them a function) or lethal.

Even if you make them cheap, I'm still not convinced that they'd have a function.

Chaff is useful in armies like IG, because they have a ton of slow artillery and tanks with powerful, long-range weapons.

However, DE is a fast army that doesn't have slow, long-range artillery that needs protecting. If you have wyches on foot, then they won't be able to keep up with whatever it is you want them to protect. And if the idea is for them to rush into combat, then they'll likely need transports. But since transports are so expensive, any discount you get from taking wyches in place of Wracks or such is going to be negligible.

Tyel wrote:
And making them lethal just requires too much (+1 attack, -1 AP, movement abilities etc etc).

Well, mostly it just requires giving them what they should have had ages ago.

 vipoid wrote:

Tyel wrote:

Wyches either need to be very cheap chaff units (not exactly fluffy but it gives them a function) or lethal.

Even if you make them cheap, I'm still not convinced that they'd have a function.

Chaff is useful in armies like IG, because they have a ton of slow artillery and tanks with powerful, long-range weapons.

However, DE is a fast army that doesn't have slow, long-range artillery that needs protecting. If you have wyches on foot, then they won't be able to keep up with whatever it is you want them to protect. And if the idea is for them to rush into combat, then they'll likely need transports. But since transports are so expensive, any discount you get from taking wyches in place of Wracks or such is going to be negligible.

Tyel wrote:
And making them lethal just requires too much (+1 attack, -1 AP, movement abilities etc etc).

Well, mostly it just requires giving them what they should have had ages ago.

I imagine wyches could work with their current special rule where they prevent enemies leaving combat. Problem is it's a roll off, they need to get there and fast and they need to be more durable. Currently vs guard wyches would be good in theory but you need something to take the overwatch and a way to successfully charge maybe first turn. By themselves they can't do it. If it could prevent enemy tank fire it'd be nice though.

As it currently stands most of our melee is pretty abysmal. Nothing really hits that hard and most things with toughness 5 or so can shrug off the attacks esp. if it's a vehicle as our poison would do jack then much as it always has vs vehicles and most targets.

Speaking of poison i think we need more poisoned attacks that avoid more armor and maybe wound on 2's or 3's. I'm just amazed dark eldar poisoned weapons have like absolutely no armor piercing potential or at least more possibility for mortal wounds.

I'm not sure that their roll-off trick would be a big deal even if it were automatic given how rarely they're going to be able to charge an infantry unit that really doesn't want to be in combat with them. A Guard Infantry Squad is pretty happy to stay and beat them down in CC rather than falling back and losing their offense for the turn. Ultimately, locking something in CC is not actually that valuable in 8th except insofar as it protects your own unit -- the unit you're locking loses its shooting phase and ability to charge something else either way. But Wyches are so bad at CC that nothing is going to bother falling back from them, and instead they're just going to get piled on by other nearby units.

I have a hard time imagining that GW actually gives them what they'd need at 9 points. It's more than +1 A and -1 AP.

I don't know that having stronger poison (i.e. that wounds on 2s or 3s) is a big deal. Like, that's functionally equivalent to just having more attacks with existing poison weapons. The big problem DE have is that they're even worse off than most other factions vs T3. What they really need is something that isn't poison or high AP so that it can be priced appropriately for killing GEQs.

Wytches could get 4++ like in 5th edition combat. And some rule for disembarking and charge after movement on transports. And some kill potensial in cc.

They have a 4++ in combat now...

Wyches need more attacks, better drugs and some savage melee weapon options. Stratagems can fix the other issues.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/03/25/from-the-dark-city-they-come/

Probably good news for witches and bikes if they wanna sell those boxes.

Reavers are my Favorite DE model, i hope they are good again.

Hmmm. 3 armies. Kind of worried.

I like the idea of running a pure coven or cult - but I struggle to see how that would ever work on the table.

Tyel wrote:
Hmmm. 3 armies. Kind of worried.

That's probably because it's a bloody awful idea.

We're already lacking in units and now we've been split even further, which is antithetical to the way our army is supposed to work.

 vipoid wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Hmmm. 3 armies. Kind of worried.

That's probably because it's a bloody awful idea.

We're already lacking in units and now we've been split even further, which is antithetical to the way our army is supposed to work.

Yeah. Its hard to see why you need "armies" which have just 5-6 entries in their roster.
And then Incubi and Mandrakes will probably be separate (guess Mandrades might have been embraced by the Covens but that would seem too neat).

If there were going to be 3-5 new units to round out these armies I might be more optimistic, but its hard to see how it will work with what is currently available.

Tyel wrote:

Yeah. Its hard to see why you need "armies" which have just 5-6 entries in their roster.
And then Incubi and Mandrakes will probably be separate (guess Mandrades might have been embraced by the Covens but that would seem too neat).

If there were going to be 3-5 new units to round out these armies I might be more optimistic, but its hard to see how it will work with what is currently available.

Indeed.

I think what annoys me most is that there's absolutely no need for it. DE don't have so many units/options that they need to be split (especially when you compare them to Space Marines or Eldar). Nor were they so strong that they needed to be toned down (in fact, they were one of the absolute worst armies in 7th).

There's also this weird thing wherein the 3 subfactions are separate . . . except in instances where separation would actually be beneficial. For example, all of them use the same PFP chart. So you've got a sluggish, tough(ish), melee-focused faction; a fast(ish), fragile, melee-focused faction; and a fast(ish), fragile, shooting-focused faction - all using the same rules (and that's before we even get to Incubi or Mandrakes).
1) Inured to Suffering is pretty rubbish at the best of times, but it's especially weak for Kabal and Cult units, as they're so easy to kill that the extra 6+++ is all but meaningless.
2) Eager to Flay is useful for Coven and Cult, but virtually useless for Kabal - as they rarely want to be in melee to begin with.
3) Flensing Fury has the same problem as the above. Though it's also worth noting that it's not particularly helpful even for most of our melee units - because wounding is where they have problems.
4) Emboldened by Bloodshed is rarely of use to anyone, as we have good Ld to begin with and most of our units are best suited to MSU. Maybe if you're using a horde army with Warriors, but then can you afford to have no morale protection until turn 4? Anyway, I imagine this will be least useful for Coven, as they have maybe 1 unit that can be large enough to even be affected by morale.
5) Mantle of Agony. Whoever designed this chart must have really hated Kabal, because this is the third trait that necessitates you being really close to your target. Not that it matters, as most of the time the game will basically be over by this point.

I mean, if we're stuck with this ridiculous separation of subfactions, could they not have given each of them their own PfP chart? That way you're not stuck playing a shooty army that for some reason is getting melee benefits each turn. Next you'll be telling me that the only HQ available to that subfaction gives a useless Ld buff. Oh. Right.

If they try to go down the route of encouraging sub-factions in our codex we're probably fethed.

GW needs to embrace that our codex has a relatively small number of units (especially HQs) and thus inter-unit sysnergy is extremely important. Unit buffs need to be indescriminatory.

Another thing is that we dont have psychic powers to micro-manage our units with. That further necessitates a broadness in how well our units should stack with each other.

Can we at least see the codex before doom and gloom settles in. One solution is that each sub faction comes with one of different faction rules, and within each detachments you choose what ecah cabal, wytch and coven rules you use. That would be an awsome divide of the roles. We know some armies break sertain faction designs when it makes sence. (See tyranid special characters are not tied to hive fleets at all.) Melee rules on wytches, shooting rules on warriors and some odd things with the fleshshapers. It would be compatable with power from pain witch is reasonable they keep around. Imagine of one of the fleshshapers counted as one level hieger on the power from pain track for instance, that would be cool. Wytches either charge after running, or some bonus in CC.

More importantly then seperate factions or not is if the rules are good and the boats are cheap. Anything beyond that is just a bonus. (Return of some old 5th edition characters please.)

You dont know how the rules are for "3 armies"

Just b.c you CAN do 3 armies doesnt mean it still doesnt have rules/stratagems/traits for playing all of them together.

We also dont know if its only in detachments, if you can gain a kabal buff for a kabal detachment, and same thing for Wych/Coven, the way detachments are, its not going to be a problem at all.

Until we see the rules, no reason to complain.

We've had 14 codices drop since the advebt of 8th edition, so that's about 11 reasons minimum to complain, actually.

 vipoid wrote:
I mean, if we're stuck with this ridiculous separation of subfactions, could they not have given each of them their own PfP chart?

I'm worried about the army getting split too, but GW doubling down on this might well be their way of solving the "how do we give these three distinct subfactions rules which benefit all of them?" question. Kabals, Cults and Covens might well wind up getting their own PfP charts - or even their own army-wide rules entirely.

The reason to be concerned is that there is a fair amount in DE that needs a total re-work and unfortunately this has rarely happened with the codexes.
I agree Archons for instance do not make sense. Will they scrap the leadership buff for something useful? Will they be vaguely useful in assault or carry on being an expensive blaster?

If you get X special rules for pure kabal/cult/coven detachments its limiting in a way all other factions are not.

But interested all the same.

 Niiai wrote:
Can we at least see the codex before doom and gloom settles in.

GW's history with DE means I'm taking the opposite approach - I intend to assume that the codex will be godawful until I see some sort of certificate proving otherwise.

The PfP could be easily solved: Use the Daughter's of Khaine rules.

I have been playing DoK and the progression of the chart and abilities are far more useful than PfP. At turn 3 all your DoK units get reroll 1s to Hit. Turn 4 you get reroll 1s to Wound.

I personally think that the DoK Battletome is a slight hint at what we might see in terms of Drukhari, or I at least hope so as DoK are currently playing like a true glasscannon much what Drukhari should be.

 Eldarsif wrote:
The PfP could be easily solved: Use the Daughter's of Khaine rules.

I have been playing DoK and the progression of the chart and abilities are far more useful than PfP. At turn 3 all your DoK units get reroll 1s to Hit. Turn 4 you get reroll 1s to Wound.

That would indeed be much better.

But then, I've always found that Dark Elves seem to consistently have far better rules than their 40k equivalents. It also seems like far more effort goes into them.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
We've had 14 codices drop since the advebt of 8th edition, so that's about 11 reasons minimum to complain, actually.

And due to some of the codex's like Tyranids, CWE (other than Dark Reapers), BA etc.. i'm very hopeful. We also havent had a codex like DE yet, so we have nothing to base it on.


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 vipoid wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
The PfP could be easily solved: Use the Daughter's of Khaine rules.

I have been playing DoK and the progression of the chart and abilities are far more useful than PfP. At turn 3 all your DoK units get reroll 1s to Hit. Turn 4 you get reroll 1s to Wound.

That would indeed be much better.

But then, I've always found that Dark Elves seem to consistently have far better rules than their 40k equivalents. It also seems like far more effort goes into them.

I do like this as well. The DoK look so fun, if a friend doesnt pick them up i am going to.

Huh, I like the actual Start Collecting better, as I prefere Kabals, but I can see it being interesting, a Venom might still be a really good transport, Reavers are awesome-looking and if they did buff Wyches and the Succubus it might me really good.

The DoK is good because the turn 1 and 2 are not overpowering, but useful(reroll 1s on run and charge), and on level 5 you have reroll 1s on saves.

It basically makes it so that you are rewarded for surviving while being a glass army.

There is also a prayer(Catechism of Murder) that gives extra hit on hit rolls of 6 for a unit) that I do hope Wyches get.

They honestly could just give the Wych Cults the DoK rules and be done with it, with some different rules for Kabal and Coven, and the only thing shared is the PfP. Would be interesting.

It would be kind of interesting to see 3 different PfP tables - 1 for each detachment you take of the corresponding faction - that each applied to all detachments in your army regardless of faction. Rewards you for taking a raiding party that reflects how Dark Eldar work in the fluff. Not sure of the viability of it, and it could potentially be a lot to keep track of.

...But, that table is objectively worse than pfp.

By turn 2, we have full rerolls on charges and a defensive buff which DoK don't get until turn 5. Our turn 3 to hit buff is straight superior (+1 to hit as opposed to reroll 1s to hit).

Our turn 4 and 5 are the only ones I don't think are at all useful..and how often have you had a game not decided by turn 4 and 5?

The only one I'd change would be the fearless one. We don't need that at all, especially not late in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm hoping that they flesh it out in the first preview today, but they do seem to hint at a "flexible ruleset allowing for disparate warbands."

It'd be pretty cool if within a Drukhari detachment you unlocked a subfaction bonus by including an HQ of that type, for instance. If you have an Archon, you get a Kabal bonus on all Kabal units. Have a Succubus, get WC bonus on all WC units. That'd be a way to keep them a cohesive force.

the_scotsman wrote:
...But, that table is objectively worse than pfp.

I'd have to see the whole table, but I don't think this is true.

the_scotsman wrote:

By turn 2, we have full rerolls on charges and a defensive buff which DoK don't get until turn 5.

Both are pretty weak, to be honest (though I'll grant that a 6+++ is better than rerolling 1s when Advancing). Rerolling charges is better, but both suffer from only being useful for melee units.

the_scotsman wrote:
Our turn 3 to hit buff is straight superior (+1 to hit as opposed to reroll 1s to hit).

Except that ours only affects melee. I'd far rather have a reroll 1s buff that every unit can benefit from, rather than a +1 to hit buff that only affects melee.

the_scotsman wrote:

Our turn 4 and 5 are the only ones I don't think are at all useful..and how often have you had a game not decided by turn 4 and 5?

I'd agree, but then I've never liked PfP being a table like this. I'd far rather go back to when we were rewarded for killing units.

DoK have a 6+ FnP built into their faction so they have it from round one. So I would consider the DoK setup to be much better than the current Drukhari one.

For the whole table and faction abilities:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/02/aos-daughters-of-khaine-army-special-abilities.html


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I'd agree, but then I've never liked PfP being a table like this. I'd far rather go back to when we were rewarded for killing units.

The only issue I have with that is that pain token rewards need to be rather exponential to be worth it considering that a pain token unit can most likely be wiped off the table in a single turn rather easily.

DoK rules would be better but I doubt they would buff shooting that much.

The struggle with a melee focused DE force is that too many units do not hit remotely hard enough for their points and short of free-flowing webway portals its actually one of the slower armies in the game.

If Wyches/wracks were say 6 points maybe you could run a pallid tide (and their theoretical damage potential would be okay) but its difficult to see how that would fit the fluff.

My bet is that venoms/splinter cannons have had a slight cost decrease (5-10 points). The competitive DE scene will therefore be lots of kabalites in Venoms (probably with a blaster) for grabbing objectives and running away from hordes. You will then have RWJF+Ravagers for dark light support. As far as possible you play keep away for 3 turns and then try to win on objectives at the end of the game.

Basically how it was in 7th.

Tyel wrote:
The competitive DE scene will therefore be lots of kabalites in Venoms (probably with a blaster) for grabbing objectives and running away from hordes. You will then have RWJF+Ravagers for dark light support. As far as possible you play keep away for 3 turns and then try to win on objectives at the end of the game.

Basically how it was in 7th.

For as competitive as DE can be currently, that's what a competitive DE list looks like now.

I am actually wondering if they made the transports faction specific. The raider has always had kabalites whereas the venom always sported wyches.

If so it would create even more headaches.

They wouldnt do that. Dont forget that we have Coven and others like Incubi, etc.. now... the might be "Pick a faction when you pick this transport" type of thing, for auras/traits.

 Eldarsif wrote:

I'd agree, but then I've never liked PfP being a table like this. I'd far rather go back to when we were rewarded for killing units.

The only issue I have with that is that pain token rewards need to be rather exponential to be worth it considering that a pain token unit can most likely be wiped off the table in a single turn rather easily.

Well, we don't have to still use pain tokens. I've suggested before that killing units could instead give us CPs.

Another possibility would be an army-wide table, but one that advances based on kills rather than by turns.

 vipoid wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
...But, that table is objectively worse than pfp.

I'd have to see the whole table, but I don't think this is true.

the_scotsman wrote:

By turn 2, we have full rerolls on charges and a defensive buff which DoK don't get until turn 5.

Both are pretty weak, to be honest (though I'll grant that a 6+++ is better than rerolling 1s when Advancing). Rerolling charges is better, but both suffer from only being useful for melee units.

the_scotsman wrote:
Our turn 3 to hit buff is straight superior (+1 to hit as opposed to reroll 1s to hit).

Except that ours only affects melee. I'd far rather have a reroll 1s buff that every unit can benefit from, rather than a +1 to hit buff that only affects melee.

the_scotsman wrote:

Our turn 4 and 5 are the only ones I don't think are at all useful..and how often have you had a game not decided by turn 4 and 5?

I'd agree, but then I've never liked PfP being a table like this. I'd far rather go back to when we were rewarded for killing units.

This is just a guess, but I feel like DoK probably have relatively few ranged units and many more melee units. While reroll 1s to hit would be superior for Dark Eldar, you'd be buffing MANY more shooting units for that buff. Also, I did not know DoK got the turn 1 buff from PFP basically in addition to their other buff - with that in mind, the DoK one is definitely superior.

For the record I'd also like to go back to pain tokens.

Well, we don't have to still use pain tokens. I've suggested before that killing units could instead give us CPs.

That is actually a nice idea.

First preview is up: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/03/26/codex-drukhai-preview-assembling-your-raiding-party/
3+ patrol detachments = +4CPs.
And 6+ give 8CPs.
But many tournaments/organised formats use a detachment limit…

So presumably tournaments have to adjust for this and just allow unlimited DE detachments or something.

That aside, this seems like an okay solution. 3 HQs and 3 Troops gets you 4 CP, which is better than a Battalion + something else. Of course, if one of the three kinds of Troops isn't playable then it gets a lot harder to bring their other stuff. You have a lot of reason to have at least one detachment from each group because 1 CP for 2 more Warlord Traits would be fantastic in just about every codex released so far.

Beyond 3 Patrols you start getting very HQ-heavy. 6 Patrols is a lot of Archons.

If tournaments don't make concessions for Drukhari regarding detachment limits then I doubt many people will play them in the competitive scene.

Dionysodorus wrote:
So presumably tournaments have to adjust for this and just allow unlimited DE detachments or something.

That aside, this seems like an okay solution. 3 HQs and 3 Troops gets you 4 CP, which is better than a Battalion + something else. Of course, if one of the three kinds of Troops isn't playable then it gets a lot harder to bring their other stuff. You have a lot of reason to have at least one detachment from each group because 1 CP for 2 more Warlord Traits would be fantastic in just about every codex released so far.

Beyond 3 Patrols you start getting very HQ-heavy. 6 Patrols is a lot of Archons.

Well, if one of the three troops isn't playable it doesn't matter because if everything stayed the same from the index there'd be no reason to take any Wych Cult units anyway.

Wyches
Bloodbrides
Succubi
Lelith
Hellions
Beastmasters
Reavers

There's your Wych Cult specific units. Can you tell me whych ones you're really slavering to fit into your detachments that you're willing to pay a 5 wych tax to include?

the_scotsman wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
So presumably tournaments have to adjust for this and just allow unlimited DE detachments or something.

That aside, this seems like an okay solution. 3 HQs and 3 Troops gets you 4 CP, which is better than a Battalion + something else. Of course, if one of the three kinds of Troops isn't playable then it gets a lot harder to bring their other stuff. You have a lot of reason to have at least one detachment from each group because 1 CP for 2 more Warlord Traits would be fantastic in just about every codex released so far.

Beyond 3 Patrols you start getting very HQ-heavy. 6 Patrols is a lot of Archons.

Well, if one of the three troops isn't playable it doesn't matter because if everything stayed the same from the index there'd be no reason to take any Wych Cult units anyway.

Wyches
Bloodbrides
Succubi
Lelith
Hellions
Beastmasters
Reavers

There's your Wych Cult specific units. Can you tell me whych ones you're really slavering to fit into your detachments that you're willing to pay a 5 wych tax to include?

I have no idea why you'd assume that everything is unchanged from the index.

So, whatever complications this set up might bring up regarding tournaments, you've got to give credit where credit is due: this is incredibly unique. No other army we've seen can get 3 warlord traits, nor use so many small detachments effectively. Given how much people object to armies feeling too generic, this is a big step away from that and if I'd have read it in a rumor, I'd have laughed at the idea of how unrealistic it was.

Succubi aren't that far from not totally sucking, and hamys don't suck. If archons get a good aura of some kind or some other creative fix, this could be really fun and quite fluffy. For those who don't disdain eldar soup, it also presents a pretty good way to splice in a hunk of dark eldar into a mixed force.

...mostly though it just makes me wish we'd ever get something like a succubus on a bike to ride along with reavers >.>

Dionysodorus wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
So presumably tournaments have to adjust for this and just allow unlimited DE detachments or something.

That aside, this seems like an okay solution. 3 HQs and 3 Troops gets you 4 CP, which is better than a Battalion + something else. Of course, if one of the three kinds of Troops isn't playable then it gets a lot harder to bring their other stuff. You have a lot of reason to have at least one detachment from each group because 1 CP for 2 more Warlord Traits would be fantastic in just about every codex released so far.

Beyond 3 Patrols you start getting very HQ-heavy. 6 Patrols is a lot of Archons.

Well, if one of the three troops isn't playable it doesn't matter because if everything stayed the same from the index there'd be no reason to take any Wych Cult units anyway.

Wyches
Bloodbrides
Succubi
Lelith
Hellions
Beastmasters
Reavers

There's your Wych Cult specific units. Can you tell me whych ones you're really slavering to fit into your detachments that you're willing to pay a 5 wych tax to include?

I have no idea why you'd assume that everything is unchanged from the index.

I'm not at all. The poster was stating that the buff would be less useful if the troops from one of the three factions was useless (wyches currently are certainly). If they are, no worries - everything else is useless anyway. If they aren't, then they aren't. either way, we'll just either not use Wych Cults, or we will because they're not unviable.

Also I think the natural dispensation will be to say 3 dark eldar patrols use up 1 detachment 'slot'. Easy, done.

That's an uncomfortable amount of HQs imo. We'll have to see if they got cheaper, and what abilities they get.

drakerocket wrote:
Also I think the natural dispensation will be to say 3 dark eldar patrols use up 1 detachment 'slot'. Easy, done.

Absolutely. Brilliant idea

 Zuri Prime wrote:
That's an uncomfortable amount of HQs imo. We'll have to see if they got cheaper, and what abilities they get.

It's only 1 more HQ than you'd need for a Battalion already, but you get 1 more CP. I'd hardly call that "uncomfortable"

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 Zuri Prime wrote:
That's an uncomfortable amount of HQs imo. We'll have to see if they got cheaper, and what abilities they get.

Yeah, there would be more hype if we saw the changes to Archons and Succubi. Right now, they aren't worth their points at all.

drakerocket wrote:
So, whatever complications this set up might bring up regarding tournaments, you've got to give credit where credit is due: this is incredibly unique. No other army we've seen can get 3 warlord traits, nor use so many small detachments effectively. Given how much people object to armies feeling too generic, this is a big step away from that and if I'd have read it in a rumor, I'd have laughed at the idea of how unrealistic it was.

It's unique, sure, but so is a submarine made of bread.

Also, to me it just looks like DE are saying "We want to be 7th edition Corsairs so badly!" (This seems really similar to the weird Coterie detachment system they used.)

And all I can think is "I wish you were 7th edition Corsairs, too. I'll have my fun, fluffy HQ with psychic powers, unique abilities and Jetbike/Jetpack option whenever you're ready, please. And my Scourges that move and fire heavy weapons without penalty and which also aren't limited to 4 heavy weapons regardless of squad size. And my troops with Jetpack options that can take 2 special weapons per 5 and have access to Meltas."

drakerocket wrote:

Succubi aren't that far from not totally sucking, and hamys don't suck.

Please. Succubi can't even see the Land of Not Sucking with a telescope, and Haemonculi only look good because our other HQs are so utterly abysmal.

drakerocket wrote:
If archons get a good aura of some kind or some other creative fix, this could be really fun and quite fluffy.

Given that every DE release since 5th has done nothing but hack away at every single thing that made Archons, fun or useful, that's one hell of an 'if'.


Look, in theory this could be a fun rule. In theory. In practise, however, I suspect what we'll actually end up with is 3 garbage HQs that we're expected to take inordinate numbers of just to get access to the same number of CPs that other armies get as standard. HQs which will doubtless have no options for wings, skyboards or jetbikes and will end up with no option but to jog sweatily behind the rest of the army because no transport has room for them.

 Galef wrote:
It's only 1 more HQ than you'd need for a Battalion already, but you get 1 more CP. I'd hardly call that "uncomfortable"-

And 3 more HQs than you'd normally need for a Brigade.

Given that my ideal number of DE HQs is 0, I would call both of these instances 'uncomfortable'.

Dream list for archon goes aura change to 'reroll 1s to hit' and 'the archon's aura affects all units on a transport he is embarked on."

Blaster cost changed to match harlequin fusion pistol.

Dream list for succubus goes: wyches get good.

DE HQs being garbage is a separate issue than making 3 Partrols give an extra CP. In theme, it's a cool idea.
If Archons, Haemis and Succubi get both points reductions, cool abilities, access to decent relics and WL traits, they may make this whole thing worth while.

Also keep in mind that DE are almost guaranteed to have some Webway stratagem and needing extra CPs will almost be mandatory. Heck, a WW stratagem for DE my be even easier that other factions, allowing several units to deploy for 1CP.
I would be legitimately surprised if deployment shenanigans weren't handed out like candy for DE. Maybe even allowing them to ignore the 50% must be deployed during setup rule, or giving them a "Night fight" rule at the start of the game making them really hard to hit. DE, afterall, are supposed to be THE Alpha strike army, appearing to cause mayhem then fading away.

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 Galef wrote:
DE HQs being garbage is a separate issue than making 3 Partrols give an extra CP.-

I disagree - DE already suffer from having the worst HQs in the game and if they're still bad then this will only add to the HQ tax.

 Galef wrote:
If Archons, Haemis and Succubi get both points reductions, cool abilities, access to decent relics and WL traits, they may make this whole thing worth while.

Don't forget access to some form of mobility (wings, skyboard, jetbike or somesuch).

But yeah, if DE HQs actually become good, then this could make for a really fun army.

 vipoid wrote:
Don't forget access to some form of mobility (wings, skyboard, jetbike or somesuch).

But yeah, if DE HQs actually become good, then this could make for a really fun army.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. The loss of the Archon jetbike is pretty much why I stopped playing DE altogether. I sprinkled in a few units alongside my Eldar in 7th, but not having a mobile HQ has killed DE for me.
The fact that the last codex even had a 2 page layout detailing the fluff of a Reaver champion turned Archon is even more salt in the wound.
What happened? Did he have to trade in his jetbike to qualify for his Archon registration card?

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