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 BlaxicanX wrote:
We've had 14 codices drop since the advebt of 8th edition, so that's about 11 reasons minimum to complain, actually.

And due to some of the codex's like Tyranids, CWE (other than Dark Reapers), BA etc.. i'm very hopeful. We also havent had a codex like DE yet, so we have nothing to base it on.


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 vipoid wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
The PfP could be easily solved: Use the Daughter's of Khaine rules.

I have been playing DoK and the progression of the chart and abilities are far more useful than PfP. At turn 3 all your DoK units get reroll 1s to Hit. Turn 4 you get reroll 1s to Wound.

That would indeed be much better.

But then, I've always found that Dark Elves seem to consistently have far better rules than their 40k equivalents. It also seems like far more effort goes into them.

I do like this as well. The DoK look so fun, if a friend doesnt pick them up i am going to.

Huh, I like the actual Start Collecting better, as I prefere Kabals, but I can see it being interesting, a Venom might still be a really good transport, Reavers are awesome-looking and if they did buff Wyches and the Succubus it might me really good.

The DoK is good because the turn 1 and 2 are not overpowering, but useful(reroll 1s on run and charge), and on level 5 you have reroll 1s on saves.

It basically makes it so that you are rewarded for surviving while being a glass army.

There is also a prayer(Catechism of Murder) that gives extra hit on hit rolls of 6 for a unit) that I do hope Wyches get.

They honestly could just give the Wych Cults the DoK rules and be done with it, with some different rules for Kabal and Coven, and the only thing shared is the PfP. Would be interesting.

It would be kind of interesting to see 3 different PfP tables - 1 for each detachment you take of the corresponding faction - that each applied to all detachments in your army regardless of faction. Rewards you for taking a raiding party that reflects how Dark Eldar work in the fluff. Not sure of the viability of it, and it could potentially be a lot to keep track of.

...But, that table is objectively worse than pfp.

By turn 2, we have full rerolls on charges and a defensive buff which DoK don't get until turn 5. Our turn 3 to hit buff is straight superior (+1 to hit as opposed to reroll 1s to hit).

Our turn 4 and 5 are the only ones I don't think are at all useful..and how often have you had a game not decided by turn 4 and 5?

The only one I'd change would be the fearless one. We don't need that at all, especially not late in the game.


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I'm hoping that they flesh it out in the first preview today, but they do seem to hint at a "flexible ruleset allowing for disparate warbands."

It'd be pretty cool if within a Drukhari detachment you unlocked a subfaction bonus by including an HQ of that type, for instance. If you have an Archon, you get a Kabal bonus on all Kabal units. Have a Succubus, get WC bonus on all WC units. That'd be a way to keep them a cohesive force.

the_scotsman wrote:
...But, that table is objectively worse than pfp.

I'd have to see the whole table, but I don't think this is true.

the_scotsman wrote:

By turn 2, we have full rerolls on charges and a defensive buff which DoK don't get until turn 5.

Both are pretty weak, to be honest (though I'll grant that a 6+++ is better than rerolling 1s when Advancing). Rerolling charges is better, but both suffer from only being useful for melee units.

the_scotsman wrote:
Our turn 3 to hit buff is straight superior (+1 to hit as opposed to reroll 1s to hit).

Except that ours only affects melee. I'd far rather have a reroll 1s buff that every unit can benefit from, rather than a +1 to hit buff that only affects melee.

the_scotsman wrote:

Our turn 4 and 5 are the only ones I don't think are at all useful..and how often have you had a game not decided by turn 4 and 5?

I'd agree, but then I've never liked PfP being a table like this. I'd far rather go back to when we were rewarded for killing units.

DoK have a 6+ FnP built into their faction so they have it from round one. So I would consider the DoK setup to be much better than the current Drukhari one.

For the whole table and faction abilities:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/02/aos-daughters-of-khaine-army-special-abilities.html


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I'd agree, but then I've never liked PfP being a table like this. I'd far rather go back to when we were rewarded for killing units.

The only issue I have with that is that pain token rewards need to be rather exponential to be worth it considering that a pain token unit can most likely be wiped off the table in a single turn rather easily.

DoK rules would be better but I doubt they would buff shooting that much.

The struggle with a melee focused DE force is that too many units do not hit remotely hard enough for their points and short of free-flowing webway portals its actually one of the slower armies in the game.

If Wyches/wracks were say 6 points maybe you could run a pallid tide (and their theoretical damage potential would be okay) but its difficult to see how that would fit the fluff.

My bet is that venoms/splinter cannons have had a slight cost decrease (5-10 points). The competitive DE scene will therefore be lots of kabalites in Venoms (probably with a blaster) for grabbing objectives and running away from hordes. You will then have RWJF+Ravagers for dark light support. As far as possible you play keep away for 3 turns and then try to win on objectives at the end of the game.

Basically how it was in 7th.

Tyel wrote:
The competitive DE scene will therefore be lots of kabalites in Venoms (probably with a blaster) for grabbing objectives and running away from hordes. You will then have RWJF+Ravagers for dark light support. As far as possible you play keep away for 3 turns and then try to win on objectives at the end of the game.

Basically how it was in 7th.

For as competitive as DE can be currently, that's what a competitive DE list looks like now.

I am actually wondering if they made the transports faction specific. The raider has always had kabalites whereas the venom always sported wyches.

If so it would create even more headaches.

They wouldnt do that. Dont forget that we have Coven and others like Incubi, etc.. now... the might be "Pick a faction when you pick this transport" type of thing, for auras/traits.

 Eldarsif wrote:

I'd agree, but then I've never liked PfP being a table like this. I'd far rather go back to when we were rewarded for killing units.

The only issue I have with that is that pain token rewards need to be rather exponential to be worth it considering that a pain token unit can most likely be wiped off the table in a single turn rather easily.

Well, we don't have to still use pain tokens. I've suggested before that killing units could instead give us CPs.

Another possibility would be an army-wide table, but one that advances based on kills rather than by turns.

 vipoid wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
...But, that table is objectively worse than pfp.

I'd have to see the whole table, but I don't think this is true.

the_scotsman wrote:

By turn 2, we have full rerolls on charges and a defensive buff which DoK don't get until turn 5.

Both are pretty weak, to be honest (though I'll grant that a 6+++ is better than rerolling 1s when Advancing). Rerolling charges is better, but both suffer from only being useful for melee units.

the_scotsman wrote:
Our turn 3 to hit buff is straight superior (+1 to hit as opposed to reroll 1s to hit).

Except that ours only affects melee. I'd far rather have a reroll 1s buff that every unit can benefit from, rather than a +1 to hit buff that only affects melee.

the_scotsman wrote:

Our turn 4 and 5 are the only ones I don't think are at all useful..and how often have you had a game not decided by turn 4 and 5?

I'd agree, but then I've never liked PfP being a table like this. I'd far rather go back to when we were rewarded for killing units.

This is just a guess, but I feel like DoK probably have relatively few ranged units and many more melee units. While reroll 1s to hit would be superior for Dark Eldar, you'd be buffing MANY more shooting units for that buff. Also, I did not know DoK got the turn 1 buff from PFP basically in addition to their other buff - with that in mind, the DoK one is definitely superior.

For the record I'd also like to go back to pain tokens.

Well, we don't have to still use pain tokens. I've suggested before that killing units could instead give us CPs.

That is actually a nice idea.

First preview is up: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/03/26/codex-drukhai-preview-assembling-your-raiding-party/
3+ patrol detachments = +4CPs.
And 6+ give 8CPs.
But many tournaments/organised formats use a detachment limit…

So presumably tournaments have to adjust for this and just allow unlimited DE detachments or something.

That aside, this seems like an okay solution. 3 HQs and 3 Troops gets you 4 CP, which is better than a Battalion + something else. Of course, if one of the three kinds of Troops isn't playable then it gets a lot harder to bring their other stuff. You have a lot of reason to have at least one detachment from each group because 1 CP for 2 more Warlord Traits would be fantastic in just about every codex released so far.

Beyond 3 Patrols you start getting very HQ-heavy. 6 Patrols is a lot of Archons.

If tournaments don't make concessions for Drukhari regarding detachment limits then I doubt many people will play them in the competitive scene.

Dionysodorus wrote:
So presumably tournaments have to adjust for this and just allow unlimited DE detachments or something.

That aside, this seems like an okay solution. 3 HQs and 3 Troops gets you 4 CP, which is better than a Battalion + something else. Of course, if one of the three kinds of Troops isn't playable then it gets a lot harder to bring their other stuff. You have a lot of reason to have at least one detachment from each group because 1 CP for 2 more Warlord Traits would be fantastic in just about every codex released so far.

Beyond 3 Patrols you start getting very HQ-heavy. 6 Patrols is a lot of Archons.

Well, if one of the three troops isn't playable it doesn't matter because if everything stayed the same from the index there'd be no reason to take any Wych Cult units anyway.

Wyches
Bloodbrides
Succubi
Lelith
Hellions
Beastmasters
Reavers

There's your Wych Cult specific units. Can you tell me whych ones you're really slavering to fit into your detachments that you're willing to pay a 5 wych tax to include?

the_scotsman wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
So presumably tournaments have to adjust for this and just allow unlimited DE detachments or something.

That aside, this seems like an okay solution. 3 HQs and 3 Troops gets you 4 CP, which is better than a Battalion + something else. Of course, if one of the three kinds of Troops isn't playable then it gets a lot harder to bring their other stuff. You have a lot of reason to have at least one detachment from each group because 1 CP for 2 more Warlord Traits would be fantastic in just about every codex released so far.

Beyond 3 Patrols you start getting very HQ-heavy. 6 Patrols is a lot of Archons.

Well, if one of the three troops isn't playable it doesn't matter because if everything stayed the same from the index there'd be no reason to take any Wych Cult units anyway.

Wyches
Bloodbrides
Succubi
Lelith
Hellions
Beastmasters
Reavers

There's your Wych Cult specific units. Can you tell me whych ones you're really slavering to fit into your detachments that you're willing to pay a 5 wych tax to include?

I have no idea why you'd assume that everything is unchanged from the index.

So, whatever complications this set up might bring up regarding tournaments, you've got to give credit where credit is due: this is incredibly unique. No other army we've seen can get 3 warlord traits, nor use so many small detachments effectively. Given how much people object to armies feeling too generic, this is a big step away from that and if I'd have read it in a rumor, I'd have laughed at the idea of how unrealistic it was.

Succubi aren't that far from not totally sucking, and hamys don't suck. If archons get a good aura of some kind or some other creative fix, this could be really fun and quite fluffy. For those who don't disdain eldar soup, it also presents a pretty good way to splice in a hunk of dark eldar into a mixed force.

...mostly though it just makes me wish we'd ever get something like a succubus on a bike to ride along with reavers >.>

Dionysodorus wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
So presumably tournaments have to adjust for this and just allow unlimited DE detachments or something.

That aside, this seems like an okay solution. 3 HQs and 3 Troops gets you 4 CP, which is better than a Battalion + something else. Of course, if one of the three kinds of Troops isn't playable then it gets a lot harder to bring their other stuff. You have a lot of reason to have at least one detachment from each group because 1 CP for 2 more Warlord Traits would be fantastic in just about every codex released so far.

Beyond 3 Patrols you start getting very HQ-heavy. 6 Patrols is a lot of Archons.

Well, if one of the three troops isn't playable it doesn't matter because if everything stayed the same from the index there'd be no reason to take any Wych Cult units anyway.

Wyches
Bloodbrides
Succubi
Lelith
Hellions
Beastmasters
Reavers

There's your Wych Cult specific units. Can you tell me whych ones you're really slavering to fit into your detachments that you're willing to pay a 5 wych tax to include?

I have no idea why you'd assume that everything is unchanged from the index.

I'm not at all. The poster was stating that the buff would be less useful if the troops from one of the three factions was useless (wyches currently are certainly). If they are, no worries - everything else is useless anyway. If they aren't, then they aren't. either way, we'll just either not use Wych Cults, or we will because they're not unviable.

Also I think the natural dispensation will be to say 3 dark eldar patrols use up 1 detachment 'slot'. Easy, done.

That's an uncomfortable amount of HQs imo. We'll have to see if they got cheaper, and what abilities they get.

drakerocket wrote:
Also I think the natural dispensation will be to say 3 dark eldar patrols use up 1 detachment 'slot'. Easy, done.

Absolutely. Brilliant idea

 Zuri Prime wrote:
That's an uncomfortable amount of HQs imo. We'll have to see if they got cheaper, and what abilities they get.

It's only 1 more HQ than you'd need for a Battalion already, but you get 1 more CP. I'd hardly call that "uncomfortable"

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 Zuri Prime wrote:
That's an uncomfortable amount of HQs imo. We'll have to see if they got cheaper, and what abilities they get.

Yeah, there would be more hype if we saw the changes to Archons and Succubi. Right now, they aren't worth their points at all.

drakerocket wrote:
So, whatever complications this set up might bring up regarding tournaments, you've got to give credit where credit is due: this is incredibly unique. No other army we've seen can get 3 warlord traits, nor use so many small detachments effectively. Given how much people object to armies feeling too generic, this is a big step away from that and if I'd have read it in a rumor, I'd have laughed at the idea of how unrealistic it was.

It's unique, sure, but so is a submarine made of bread.

Also, to me it just looks like DE are saying "We want to be 7th edition Corsairs so badly!" (This seems really similar to the weird Coterie detachment system they used.)

And all I can think is "I wish you were 7th edition Corsairs, too. I'll have my fun, fluffy HQ with psychic powers, unique abilities and Jetbike/Jetpack option whenever you're ready, please. And my Scourges that move and fire heavy weapons without penalty and which also aren't limited to 4 heavy weapons regardless of squad size. And my troops with Jetpack options that can take 2 special weapons per 5 and have access to Meltas."

drakerocket wrote:

Succubi aren't that far from not totally sucking, and hamys don't suck.

Please. Succubi can't even see the Land of Not Sucking with a telescope, and Haemonculi only look good because our other HQs are so utterly abysmal.

drakerocket wrote:
If archons get a good aura of some kind or some other creative fix, this could be really fun and quite fluffy.

Given that every DE release since 5th has done nothing but hack away at every single thing that made Archons, fun or useful, that's one hell of an 'if'.


Look, in theory this could be a fun rule. In theory. In practise, however, I suspect what we'll actually end up with is 3 garbage HQs that we're expected to take inordinate numbers of just to get access to the same number of CPs that other armies get as standard. HQs which will doubtless have no options for wings, skyboards or jetbikes and will end up with no option but to jog sweatily behind the rest of the army because no transport has room for them.

 Galef wrote:
It's only 1 more HQ than you'd need for a Battalion already, but you get 1 more CP. I'd hardly call that "uncomfortable"-

And 3 more HQs than you'd normally need for a Brigade.

Given that my ideal number of DE HQs is 0, I would call both of these instances 'uncomfortable'.

Dream list for archon goes aura change to 'reroll 1s to hit' and 'the archon's aura affects all units on a transport he is embarked on."

Blaster cost changed to match harlequin fusion pistol.

Dream list for succubus goes: wyches get good.

DE HQs being garbage is a separate issue than making 3 Partrols give an extra CP. In theme, it's a cool idea.
If Archons, Haemis and Succubi get both points reductions, cool abilities, access to decent relics and WL traits, they may make this whole thing worth while.

Also keep in mind that DE are almost guaranteed to have some Webway stratagem and needing extra CPs will almost be mandatory. Heck, a WW stratagem for DE my be even easier that other factions, allowing several units to deploy for 1CP.
I would be legitimately surprised if deployment shenanigans weren't handed out like candy for DE. Maybe even allowing them to ignore the 50% must be deployed during setup rule, or giving them a "Night fight" rule at the start of the game making them really hard to hit. DE, afterall, are supposed to be THE Alpha strike army, appearing to cause mayhem then fading away.

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 Galef wrote:
DE HQs being garbage is a separate issue than making 3 Partrols give an extra CP.-

I disagree - DE already suffer from having the worst HQs in the game and if they're still bad then this will only add to the HQ tax.

 Galef wrote:
If Archons, Haemis and Succubi get both points reductions, cool abilities, access to decent relics and WL traits, they may make this whole thing worth while.

Don't forget access to some form of mobility (wings, skyboard, jetbike or somesuch).

But yeah, if DE HQs actually become good, then this could make for a really fun army.

 vipoid wrote:
Don't forget access to some form of mobility (wings, skyboard, jetbike or somesuch).

But yeah, if DE HQs actually become good, then this could make for a really fun army.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. The loss of the Archon jetbike is pretty much why I stopped playing DE altogether. I sprinkled in a few units alongside my Eldar in 7th, but not having a mobile HQ has killed DE for me.
The fact that the last codex even had a 2 page layout detailing the fluff of a Reaver champion turned Archon is even more salt in the wound.
What happened? Did he have to trade in his jetbike to qualify for his Archon registration card?

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