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If Haywire rules did something else like make vehicles -1 to hit, or 1/2 their movement etc... then having 2-3 spread out in your army could be worth it.

Taking this list to play my dark angels buddy later.

This basically uses every model I own short of some reavers, hellions, a single talos, and some haywire/splinter cannon scourges.

I think my next purchases to streamline this army should be a Voidraven, or maybe another RWJF. I'm also considering maybe a tantalus or reaper... Thoughts?

Raider, Dissie, 2x double lance trueborn
Raider, Dissie, 2x double lance trueborn
Venom, double cannon, triple blaster trueborn
Venom, double cannon, triple blaster trueborn
Ravager, 2 lance 1 dissie
Ravager, 2 lance 1 dissie
Razorwing Jetfighter, 2lance + cannon

Scourges, 4 lances 2 carbines
5 Kabalites
5 Kabalites
10 Kabalites w/ Lance
Archon w/ agonizer, blaster, PGL
Archon w/ agonizer, blaster, PGL

I'm coming over to the side of the Voidraven instead of RWJF altogether. The Dark Scythes average better than Dark Lances on literally every target. And I'd trade a single Splinter Cannon for the void mine any day. Just skip the missiles, and it's hella cheap for what you get.

Your next purchases should be Venoms. Are the Tantalus and Reaper good? Yeah. I haven't played them but on paper they're pretty sweet. Are they that much better than regular ol' non-FW options? Not if you ask me. You'll get significantly better returns out of another Ravager, some Venoms, and a Voidraven over changing out Ravagers for Reapers.

Rule of thumb - Venoms for shooty passengers, Raiders for choppy passengers. Since you have no choppy passengers...

 Chippen wrote:
I'm coming over to the side of the Voidraven instead of RWJF altogether. The Dark Scythes average better than Dark Lances on literally every target. And I'd trade a single Splinter Cannon for the void mine any day. Just skip the missiles, and it's hella cheap for what you get.

Your next purchases should be Venoms. Are the Tantalus and Reaper good? Yeah. I haven't played them but on paper they're pretty sweet. Are they that much better than regular ol' non-FW options? Not if you ask me. You'll get significantly better returns out of another Ravager, some Venoms, and a Voidraven over changing out Ravagers for Reapers.

Rule of thumb - Venoms for shooty passengers, Raiders for choppy passengers. Since you have no choppy passengers...

Makes sense, so maybe in a perfect world I swap out both raiders for venoms, then I free up 60ish points and have 2 squads of double lance guys on foot. If I drop the double lance squads left out at that point we're up to 260ish salvaged points, which nets me enough for another bird or ravager + 100 left over.

I love the Voidbomber! I always take it over RWJF's

The only time/reason to take footsloggers is if you have a weird number of points left and you just want to camp an objective in the backfield while providing deep strike screen for your Ravagers or whatever. If you can find the points for a Flyer Wing of Dark Scythe Voidravens sans missiles, do it. If not, use your two from the Battalion on those. Then magnetize them so you can throw on the Void Lances if you find yourself seeing a lot of Leman Russ tanks or something. You DEFINITELY want at least two (and that goes for most everything in your list) as we're too fragile not to have redundancy.

Remember, DE don't really try to table people. Lists like Bobby G gunlines take the sledgehammer approach, we're more like a scalpel. If you try to have a slugfest, you'll lose the game most of the time. Spend two turns taking out what's dangerous then play objectives. That's how I've been winning. To do this, you want mobile ObSec. That's why even though offensively, Blasterborn in a Venom are better than 5xKabs w/ Blaster in a Venom, I take 4 of the latter and none of the former.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I love the Voidbomber! I always take it over RWJF's

Seems like you and I are the only ones who do this. I barely see Voidravens at all. I put up a post on that other forum we both frequent to find out why, because I can't figure it out.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I love the Voidbomber! I always take it over RWJF's

I have one void raven and no razorwings. I dunno if i need many more. Perhaps just a 2nd one. I wish void ravens didn't cost so much money (80 USD) even if they are good. The void mine is good but it seems like a risky maneuver sometimes that could endanger the void raven. I know i should do non-void lance but i'm unsure if the range difference will put the void raven in range of more weapons. That said dark scythes should work fairly well. Less chances of a miss.

Lately i'm more concerned about anti-horde rather than anything else. I had to order some wyches at GW to be shipped to the store (the store was sold out). I think bloodbrides should work well when combined with grotesques. Wyches will hold the enemy in place (preventing retreat) while grotesques will chop through basic soldiers. Hopefully it works out.

 Chippen wrote:
Seems like you and I are the only ones who do this. I barely see Voidravens at all. I put up a post on that other forum we both frequent to find out why, because I can't figure it out.

I think this is because I can find RWJF's for $20-40 on ebay and some other options depending on luck. Voidravens seem to be about double the price. When you consider the cost difference in dollars, with the fact that the two units are indeed very similar, it makes sense.

 Chippen wrote:


Seems like you and I are the only ones who do this. I barely see Voidravens at all. I put up a post on that other forum we both frequent to find out why, because I can't figure it out.

That's because 8th edition is still pretty new and in 7th jetfighters were better than bombers. Drukhari didn't received a codex yet so many players, including me, are not buying new models at the moment. Furthemore the jetfighter is way cheaper in terms of money. Those are the reasons why you don't see many bombers even if they're definitely more effective than jetfighters now.

Heck, even if they made the mortal wound automatic on a hit, or a 2+ to mimic what it was before, Haywire Blasters would be terrible.

As it stands even if they become super super cheap with points drops I wouldn't run them, because it's a waste to equip such expensive models with them. Their current damage output is just pathetic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chippen wrote:
I'm coming over to the side of the Voidraven instead of RWJF altogether. The Dark Scythes average better than Dark Lances on literally every target. And I'd trade a single Splinter Cannon for the void mine any day. Just skip the missiles, and it's hella cheap for what you get.

Your next purchases should be Venoms. Are the Tantalus and Reaper good? Yeah. I haven't played them but on paper they're pretty sweet. Are they that much better than regular ol' non-FW options? Not if you ask me. You'll get significantly better returns out of another Ravager, some Venoms, and a Voidraven over changing out Ravagers for Reapers.

Rule of thumb - Venoms for shooty passengers, Raiders for choppy passengers. Since you have no choppy passengers...

For me, the double-squad and the extra DL has me running Raiders for everything. what does the venom do for you? In terms of points per splinter shot you get more out of the Raider, and you can load it with darkfire weaponry goodness. 2x squads with Blaster Blast pistol and phantasms in a DL raider are my go-to competitive troop unit. I only use Venoms for HQ transport (archons+courts, the odd succubus) or blasterborn.

As a side note, wish list for our codex: Please, please give us min squad size 4 for the two elite bodyguard units (Bloodbrides+Trueborn) and Incubi.That would 100% make Venoms a thing for me again.

A squad of scourges with 4 haywire blasters should deal 8-12 wounds to vehicles to be worthy. In 7th edition they could strip 50-100% of the wounds when targeting a vehicle, they should now have a similar efficency to justify the inclusion in a list.

the_scotsman wrote:

For me, the double-squad and the extra DL has me running Raiders for everything. what does the venom do for you? In terms of points per splinter shot you get more out of the Raider, and you can load it with darkfire weaponry goodness. 2x squads with Blaster Blast pistol and phantasms in a DL raider are my go-to competitive troop unit. I only use Venoms for HQ transport (archons+courts, the odd succubus) or blasterborn.

You most certainly do not get more splinter shots per point in a Raider. Your example was 2x5 Kab squads, so that's 3 Splinter rifles each, 6 total. Best case scenario, 12 shots (and you have to be at 12" which is bad news bears).
A double cannon venom with one of those squads costs I think, 158? 95 for Venom, 63 for kab squad. I would personally never take that Blast pistol but I'll leave it in for the sake of your example.
At 12", that's 20 poison shots.
At a much safer 18", that's 16 compared to the 6 from your Raider.

Counting everything else? You're paying 241 points for:
1 Dark Lance
2x Blasters
2x Blast Pistols
6x Splinter Rifles

Meanwhile, assuming your same Kabalite squad setup, a Venom squad would pay 158 points for:
2x Splinter Cannons
1x Blast Pistol
1x Blaster
3x Splinter Rifles

In addition, you have to take that Raider (and the Venom setup) to 12". That's a dead transport against even a half decent list.

The way I run my Kabs is to drop that Blast Pistol and let the PGL stay on an Archon for 2+ hits, so I pay 145 points and I get to stay at a safe(r) 18".

Oh, and the Venom gets -1 to hit in shooting

Other non-math advantages:
- area denial - on a short edge deployment, you can lock down half the board with 4 venoms
- fewer eggs in one basket
- redundancy as you'll certainly take more given they're cheaper
- no loss of effectiveness at various wound levels. That Raider's Lance won't do you much good hitting on a 5+

It's no contest, really. Honestly, Blasters are just kind of pretty good anyway so I'll spend my points on more Lances and Dissies.

So I played against Dark Angels w/ my list from earlier (a couple posts back, trueborn heavy).... Im going to assume everyone saying Dark Eldarr were in a good place after indexes was talking sideways or hadn't seen codex armies yet.

I am really having trouble seeing how Dark Eldar can ever compete as a shooting army without the re-roll auras. My opponent must have turned 50-60 misses and failed wounds into hits.

Meanwhile I spent two entire turns and 16 darklance shots to kill one razorback.


Azrael giving everything a 4++ invuln and rerolling hits coupled with rerolling failed wounds of 1 made it just too strong to get around.


Fun facts:
A basic marine has better saves and toughness than our HQ.

Our splinters cannot hurt anything effectively, marine bolters can literally take down our troop transports.
Lascannons have more str than darklances, oh their heavies have more range too.

Marines get to re roll misses and wounds where we don't.

Our toughness is lower, our saves are lower...

All for what? A couple inches of move speed on a handful of units?


I'll be playing my daemons until these guys get a codex.

Edit to ask: How do you guys kill terminators? it seemed like disintegrator cannons were good for it but it's hard to field too many of those. Dark lances aren't efficient for it points wise, and splinter weaponry makes their 2+ save laugh.

Trancefate wrote:
Ye olde snipparoo

So if I'm reading it right, he took a very competitive list and you took what is honestly not a very good one.
You had Raiders which as I outlined in a post above are just not even close to Venoms for shooty troops. That -1 to hit is especially good against reroll miss armies due to how the reroll gak works.
Blasters are also just on the upper end of mediocre if you ask me. You have to go to 18" which puts you in bolter and plasma rapid fire threat range, and D3 damage is kind of decent at best.

With an optimization of your list and me knowing better how his list looked, I could give you more specific advice, but don't let one game where your dice were not hot turn you off of DE. We're good, but still unforgiving.

Trancefate wrote:

Edit to ask: How do you guys kill terminators? it seemed like disintegrator cannons were good for it but it's hard to field too many of those. Dark lances aren't efficient for it points wise, and splinter weaponry makes their 2+ save laugh.

Dissies, Clawed Fiends, Blasters/Dark Scythes, and just generally leaving them nowhere to drop and when they do drop, get the feth away from them.

 Chippen wrote:

Trancefate wrote:
Ye olde snipparoo

So if I'm reading it right, he took a very competitive list and you took what is honestly not a very good one.
You had Raiders which as I outlined in a post above are just not even close to Venoms for shooty troops. That -1 to hit is especially good against reroll miss armies due to how the reroll gak works.
Blasters are also just on the upper end of mediocre if you ask me. You have to go to 18" which puts you in bolter and plasma rapid fire threat range, and D3 damage is kind of decent at best.

With an optimization of your list and me knowing better how his list looked, I could give you more specific advice, but don't let one game where your dice were not hot turn you off of DE. We're good, but still unforgiving.

Trancefate wrote:

Edit to ask: How do you guys kill terminators? it seemed like disintegrator cannons were good for it but it's hard to field too many of those. Dark lances aren't efficient for it points wise, and splinter weaponry makes their 2+ save laugh.

Dissies, Clawed Fiends, Blasters/Dark Scythes, and just generally leaving them nowhere to drop and when they do drop, get the feth away from them.

I get all that, although opinions on raider vs. venom and blasters seem to differ wildly.

However here's the thing:

 Chippen wrote:
but don't let one game where your dice were not hot turn you off of DE.

That is something that literally can't happen to an army that re-rolls. My first two darklance shots killed a predator, and my next 16 killed a razorback. The problem is that the gameplay for the army feels off in that it is just WILDLY inconsistent compared to marines. I mean are Dark Eldarr supposed to be extremely less accurate than a marine? I felt more like an ORK running around hitting roughly 1/3 of the shots that my opponent was.

When you break it down we have similar stats on our weaopns, the only real difference is their army is resistant to chance, in a game about dice rolling.

My experience is that drowning Terminators in sheer weight of fire isn't actually the worst way for us to take them out.

It's not ideal without any AP on splinter weaponry but you can get a lot of Kabalites for the price of a single Terminator; throw enough shots at them and they'll start rolling 1s eventually.

Burnage wrote:
My experience is that drowning Terminators in sheer weight of fire isn't actually the worst way for us to take them out.

It's not ideal without any AP on splinter weaponry but you can get a lot of Kabalites for the price of a single Terminator; throw enough shots at them and they'll start rolling 1s eventually.

I actually had an archon kill two of them in melee, agonizer isn't horrible on them.

 Chippen wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

For me, the double-squad and the extra DL has me running Raiders for everything. what does the venom do for you? In terms of points per splinter shot you get more out of the Raider, and you can load it with darkfire weaponry goodness. 2x squads with Blaster Blast pistol and phantasms in a DL raider are my go-to competitive troop unit. I only use Venoms for HQ transport (archons+courts, the odd succubus) or blasterborn.

You most certainly do not get more splinter shots per point in a Raider. Your example was 2x5 Kab squads, so that's 3 Splinter rifles each, 6 total. Best case scenario, 12 shots (and you have to be at 12" which is bad news bears).
A double cannon venom with one of those squads costs I think, 158? 95 for Venom, 63 for kab squad. I would personally never take that Blast pistol but I'll leave it in for the sake of your example.
At 12", that's 20 poison shots.
At a much safer 18", that's 16 compared to the 6 from your Raider.

Counting everything else? You're paying 241 points for:
1 Dark Lance
2x Blasters
2x Blast Pistols
6x Splinter Rifles

Meanwhile, assuming your same Kabalite squad setup, a Venom squad would pay 158 points for:
2x Splinter Cannons
1x Blast Pistol
1x Blaster
3x Splinter Rifles

In addition, you have to take that Raider (and the Venom setup) to 12". That's a dead transport against even a half decent list.

The way I run my Kabs is to drop that Blast Pistol and let the PGL stay on an Archon for 2+ hits, so I pay 145 points and I get to stay at a safe(r) 18".

Oh, and the Venom gets -1 to hit in shooting

Other non-math advantages:
- area denial - on a short edge deployment, you can lock down half the board with 4 venoms
- fewer eggs in one basket
- redundancy as you'll certainly take more given they're cheaper
- no loss of effectiveness at various wound levels. That Raider's Lance won't do you much good hitting on a 5+

It's no contest, really. Honestly, Blasters are just kind of pretty good anyway so I'll spend my points on more Lances and Dissies.

fair point. I guess looking at the full splinter loadout (which is what I was thinking of when I said "more splinter per points" - i.e. sybarite with phantasm and rifle, full squad with just rifles, splinter cannon at 10 in the Raider) you do end up with 118 points for double cannon venom with 5x SRs+phantasm, 200 points for DL Raider with 9xSRs+phantasm+1xSC. So given that you get roughly 2 of the venoms for 1 Raider, you end up with 3 more SC's+1 more SR for similar points. So for a splintery build it's certainly more optimal. I think I do prefer my Raider for my Darkfire build, which actually has proven surprisingly survivable because they're such small squads and our vehicles no longer explode and kill everyone inside. Typically, my opponents haven't been willing to waste a ton of firepower trying to kill warriors while my melee units are up in their grill, and the blasty spam warriors have racked up some impressive casualty counts even getting into the 8" range to use the pistols. At one point they even rolled super hot and chunked a Baneblade for 11 hit points.

I guess I've been allowing units other than Warriors take the anti-infantry spotlight is that I have a lot of melee units that really only do anti-infantry, like Hellions, wyches and Reavers. Not entirely optimal, but Wych Cult units are in a marginally more usable spot than they were last edition and I've been using the heck out of them.

I'm unsure about this but i'm thinking about using more incubi rather than a bunch of horde killing units. The reason being they can handle hordes about as well as anything, they have a 3+ armor save (so can shrug off horde attacks) and they have more utility in case you're not fighting a horde army like say a MEQ army or even if you have to do a little damage against some tanks. Granted the wyches are probably more survivable against anything that goes through a good chunk of armor but with mortal wounds the invulnerable save in combat can be much more irrelevant in many ways.

Incubi can't deal with hordes, actually they really suffer hordes. They're quite good against elites instead.

The 3+ armor in invalidated by the T3 and the absence of any invuln. They don't have that many attacks to clear a 30 man squad, while they can be wiped out by the survivors even if incubi charged first.

I usually bring them in this edition, a squad of 5 in a venom. Quite effective if used like a scalpel, I think you need other assault units though otherwise it would be easy for the opponent to avoid them.

 Blackie wrote:
Incubi can't deal with hordes, actually they really suffer hordes. They're quite good against elites instead.

The 3+ armor in invalidated by the T3 and the absence of any invuln. They don't have that many attacks to clear a 30 man squad, while they can be wiped out by the survivors even if incubi charged first.

I usually bring them in this edition, a squad of 5 in a venom. Quite effective if used like a scalpel, I think you need other assault units though otherwise it would be easy for the opponent to avoid them.

This right here. I'm not sure what can slaughter hordes for the DE besides massed poison shots. I run into the problem that my opponents either weather my five man squad to kill them with massed melee attacks, or just fall back and wipe them out that way. If anything they're a nice distraction to have to screen for a shooty army.

If we get a deepstrike stratagem in the next Codex I'll probably run a ten man squad to free up a venom/raider for something else.

Agreed, if you run one assault unit, you're asking it to be blown off the table. If you're going to do any assaulting, you gotta invest some points into it.


If we get Webway in Chapter Approved, I'm probably buying a gak ton of Clawed Fiends.

Heck, if we get the webway stratagem I'm running 20 Kabalites with 2 Splinter Cannons and 2 Shredders, just to jump out and say boo at hordes of guardsmen.

Not sure about all that, 16 splinter rifles in rapid fire range, 2 splinter cannons in rapid fire range, and 3 shredders kill 11.26 Guardsmen on average.

 Zuri Prime wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Incubi can't deal with hordes, actually they really suffer hordes. They're quite good against elites instead.

The 3+ armor in invalidated by the T3 and the absence of any invuln. They don't have that many attacks to clear a 30 man squad, while they can be wiped out by the survivors even if incubi charged first.

I usually bring them in this edition, a squad of 5 in a venom. Quite effective if used like a scalpel, I think you need other assault units though otherwise it would be easy for the opponent to avoid them.

This right here. I'm not sure what can slaughter hordes for the DE besides massed poison shots. I run into the problem that my opponents either weather my five man squad to kill them with massed melee attacks, or just fall back and wipe them out that way. If anything they're a nice distraction to have to screen for a shooty army.

If we get a deepstrike stratagem in the next Codex I'll probably run a ten man squad to free up a venom/raider for something else.

DE doesnt have a good Horde killing option sadly, poison vs infantry (especially T3) is terrible

the_scotsman wrote:
Heck, if we get the webway stratagem I'm running 20 Kabalites with 2 Splinter Cannons and 2 Shredders, just to jump out and say boo at hordes of guardsmen.

This isnt like CWE with Guardians where they are T4 and 6 will rend, poison isnt good unless its T5+ and then your killing elites not infantry. Your talking about 186pts to kill12 Guardsman's, that 186pts out in the open as T3 5+/6+++ that only killed 12 5-6pt dudes. 15-16 if they are 6+ armor.


The problem with DE is that they are meant to shoot and Melee, but we cant get to melee safely at all.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Zuri Prime wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Incubi can't deal with hordes, actually they really suffer hordes. They're quite good against elites instead.

The 3+ armor in invalidated by the T3 and the absence of any invuln. They don't have that many attacks to clear a 30 man squad, while they can be wiped out by the survivors even if incubi charged first.

I usually bring them in this edition, a squad of 5 in a venom. Quite effective if used like a scalpel, I think you need other assault units though otherwise it would be easy for the opponent to avoid them.

This right here. I'm not sure what can slaughter hordes for the DE besides massed poison shots. I run into the problem that my opponents either weather my five man squad to kill them with massed melee attacks, or just fall back and wipe them out that way. If anything they're a nice distraction to have to screen for a shooty army.

If we get a deepstrike stratagem in the next Codex I'll probably run a ten man squad to free up a venom/raider for something else.

DE doesnt have a good Horde killing option sadly, poison vs infantry (especially T3) is terrible

the_scotsman wrote:
Heck, if we get the webway stratagem I'm running 20 Kabalites with 2 Splinter Cannons and 2 Shredders, just to jump out and say boo at hordes of guardsmen.

This isnt like CWE with Guardians where they are T4 and 6 will rend, poison isnt good unless its T5+ and then your killing elites not infantry. Your talking about 186pts to kill12 Guardsman's, that 186pts out in the open as T3 5+/6+++ that only killed 12 5-6pt dudes. 15-16 if they are 6+ armor.


The problem with DE is that they are meant to shoot and Melee, but we cant get to melee safely at all.

how can we not get to melee safely? Raiders are just about perfect for that. You can use them to soak up all overwatch and subdivide the enemy unit however you like to prevent counterattack coming to our flimsier units.

The problem with our melee is we have nothing that does any damage. Practically nothing that will ever wound on better than a 4+, nothing with good multi-damage, and most of our units have pretty low attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a side note, the Faeit rumors for Chapter Approved appear to be correct.

If they are, is there any good way to use the rumored changes?

-Wych Cult warlord trait literally does nothing turns 1-2 when applied to the Succubus' only good weapon because of the -1 to hit. Skip this in favor of the FNP trait or +1A on the charge trait still?

-Kabal trait seems similarly worthless because who runs a melee archon? skip in favor of FNP trait?

-Haemonculus Coven trait seems to be the only one worth considering, even though it fixes the nonexistent problem of your Haemonculi dying. However, since (at least until the codex drops and locks them into the Ichor Injector/Scissorhand/Stinger Pistol loadout from the plastic kit) the Haemonculus has the only good melee weapon of the three HQs in the Electrocorrosive Whip, I almost always bring him with the +1A trait. Is the haemonculus trait better than +1A on the charge?

-Stratagem seems solid, even if I am a little irritated that we don't get to use Vehicles with it and CWE do when our vehicles were the ones that came with Deep Strike as standard before. All our infantry get "ere we go" turn 2+, so if we want a reliable charge from deep strike we just have to wait one extra turn. What units are you going to use this with if any? I'm kind of feeling Helions personally.

-Relic pistol seems like a pretty solid way to save you the points for a blast pistol. Auto-include for Succubus or Haemonculus, IMO, but I'll probably continue to buy my Archon a blaster instead (while he can buy a blaster, at least.)

So I've read through here and I'm still curious how most people are handling HQs other than taking the minimum. Am I better off buying two blaster Archons their own venom and letting them zoom around, sticking them in a raider with a min squad of something, or just abandoning DE HQs for a different Aeldari key worded HQ (say a shadowseer with an a Troupe in a Starweaver)?

 mef989 wrote:
So I've read through here and I'm still curious how most people are handling HQs other than taking the minimum. Am I better off buying two blaster Archons their own venom and letting them zoom around, sticking them in a raider with a min squad of something, or just abandoning DE HQs for a different Aeldari key worded HQ (say a shadowseer with an a Troupe in a Starweaver)?

If you're sticking to pure DE, the HQs are.. okay? Accurate Blasters aren't terrible, neither is the Haemy Toughness buff on a Raider/Venom. The Succubus can run by herself and just provide some nice DISTRACTION CARNIFEX provided she isn't your Warlord.

But yeah if you want actual output, best way to go is something from Craftworld, or the Shadowseer with Troupe. Any psychic powers that are targeted at an enemy can still help us, so Doom is nice.

I take a Farseer Skyrunner as my warlord and then run with the cheapest DE HQs for detachment purposes. I'd prefer to go pure DE but a Farseer (especially with a small Craftworld detachment) just completely outstrips the native HQs in terms of usefulness.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Zuri Prime wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Incubi can't deal with hordes, actually they really suffer hordes. They're quite good against elites instead.

The 3+ armor in invalidated by the T3 and the absence of any invuln. They don't have that many attacks to clear a 30 man squad, while they can be wiped out by the survivors even if incubi charged first.

I usually bring them in this edition, a squad of 5 in a venom. Quite effective if used like a scalpel, I think you need other assault units though otherwise it would be easy for the opponent to avoid them.

This right here. I'm not sure what can slaughter hordes for the DE besides massed poison shots. I run into the problem that my opponents either weather my five man squad to kill them with massed melee attacks, or just fall back and wipe them out that way. If anything they're a nice distraction to have to screen for a shooty army.

If we get a deepstrike stratagem in the next Codex I'll probably run a ten man squad to free up a venom/raider for something else.

DE doesnt have a good Horde killing option sadly, poison vs infantry (especially T3) is terrible

the_scotsman wrote:
Heck, if we get the webway stratagem I'm running 20 Kabalites with 2 Splinter Cannons and 2 Shredders, just to jump out and say boo at hordes of guardsmen.

This isnt like CWE with Guardians where they are T4 and 6 will rend, poison isnt good unless its T5+ and then your killing elites not infantry. Your talking about 186pts to kill12 Guardsman's, that 186pts out in the open as T3 5+/6+++ that only killed 12 5-6pt dudes. 15-16 if they are 6+ armor.


The problem with DE is that they are meant to shoot and Melee, but we cant get to melee safely at all.

how can we not get to melee safely? Raiders are just about perfect for that. You can use them to soak up all overwatch and subdivide the enemy unit however you like to prevent counterattack coming to our flimsier units.

The problem with our melee is we have nothing that does any damage. Practically nothing that will ever wound on better than a 4+, nothing with good multi-damage, and most of our units have pretty low attacks.

I'm talking about Beasts, Hellions, and Grots, all has a problem, some are to costly, some cant get ot melee as safely, others are 1 turn wonders that can get shot off in 1 turn, or needs to much support.

Ive been doing great with just all kabals and spamming MSU Raiders/Ravagers/Beasts and 2 Haemonculus (they are better in melee than Succubus for the most part sadly).

Mandrakes are very good as well, i have 20, i need to try out all of them in a game rather than just 2x5.