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2018/02/27 03:00:36
Subject: Archons WW@?! Dark Eldar 8th Edition Tactics!
Depends. Wyches have t-shirt saves outside of close combat so you need to ferry them there with transports which can be expensive. Incubi can weather overwatch shots with their 3+ armor a little better. Not only that but str 3 is depressing. Keep that in mind my issue was it's just str 4 while strength 3 in many cases would be even worse. Seriously incubi cry against toughness 5 or higher.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/27 03:01:39
Incubi are way better than wyches. They do damage in melee and have a 3+ save, wyches are still 6+ guys.
5 incubi cost as much as 10 wyches with no upgrades. So if you compare 5 incubi with 8 wyches with a few special weapons (a blast pistol, agoniser and one pair of gauntlets typically) then incubi will perform better everytime. If you compare 6-7 incubi to a full kitted unit of wyches with 3 hydra gauntlets I think incubi are still superior and they have also a room for an HQ if they ride in a raider.
I'm also mixed on scourge now. I'm mixed because while they don't have the firepower of warriors or the wounds for equal points they very much have mobility and an 18" range gun vs a 12" gun for max effect.
I don't like them in 8th. You can have better platforms for blasters and dark lances and other weapons aren't worthy. In 7th a unit with HBs could kill a vehicle in a turn or at least strip 50-66% of its HPs with average rolls. Now the same weapon can strip 1/10 of the wounds of an average vehicle.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/27 07:56:04
2018/02/27 16:28:53
Subject: Archons WW@?! Dark Eldar 8th Edition Tactics!
Incubi can do more damage, but not by much. a full squad of Wyches, which would also be a troop choice would probably kill one less model of marine bikers or terminators than incubi would. maybe do one less wound on a big nasty monster than incubi,
But incubi, who would kill 2, maybe 3 of those kinds of units, would then be slaughtered in return swinging. especially from someone like terminators, or any other good combat unit. Wyches have the ability of having more wounds in the unit and having that 4++.
If Incubi had the ability to kill things in one round of combat, they would be great. If their weapons did multiple damage or they could get access to combat drugs, they would be worth it. But at the marginal increase that they have, I just don't seem them really paying off.
Icculus wrote: Incubi can do more damage, but not by much. a full squad of Wyches, which would also be a troop choice would probably kill one less model of marine bikers or terminators than incubi would. maybe do one less wound on a big nasty monster than incubi,
But incubi, who would kill 2, maybe 3 of those kinds of units, would then be slaughtered in return swinging. especially from someone like terminators, or any other good combat unit. Wyches have the ability of having more wounds in the unit and having that 4++.
If Incubi had the ability to kill things in one round of combat, they would be great. If their weapons did multiple damage or they could get access to combat drugs, they would be worth it. But at the marginal increase that they have, I just don't seem them really paying off.
What? How is 3 attacks at -3ap and S4 is equal to 2 attack at 0 ap with a couple -1aps?
6 Incubi is 108pts 6 Incubi Klavie: 19 attacks against MEQ thats 5.28 dead marines
On a 6 they do 2D and are S4, against Terminators they will kill 3
10 Wyches with 2 HG's and an Agoniser is 102pts +1 attack (its better, dont believe me do the math) 7 Hekatarii blades, +1 Attacks: 21 attacks, s3, -0ap, 1.5 dead
2 Hydra Gauntlets, +1 Attacks: 1 dead
Agoniser, +1 Attacks: 1 dead
Total 3.5 dead Marines, 1 Terminator
So equal points, the Incubi kills 5 marines vs 3 on the Wyches, but the Incubi are LEAPS and bounds better against Terminators they kill 1.
About survival, remember that, if you kill more, less will swing back. Wyches killing 3 and 1 means 2 and 4 get to attack back, against marines you have a worst save, but against terminators for you 4++, sadly 4 of them are swinning back, the incubi already kill 3 of them so only 2 swing back, thats 1/2 the attacks.
Dont forget that Incubi 2D on a 6 is actually very important, it helps against FnP, multi-wound guys etc...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/28 10:07:30
Don't forget shooting and overwatch. Incubi will stand up to overwatch better than wyches, where incubi shouldnt be killed by it but, but wyches may lose one. but losing 1 of 10 wyches is less significant than losing 1 of 5 incubi
But against marines, the pistol shots should kill an extra marine.
So through all of the mathhammer analysis, I will agree that Incubi are stronger in melee. But not drastically so. And the ability that Wyches have to hold an objective (more models) and their ability to synergize with a succubus and take grenades I think makes them just a bit more utilitarian than incubi.
Maybe we should instead be comparing other Elite slots to the incbi. Grotesques, Bloodbrides, or Incbi? Which elite slot is best?
And Kabals do more damage than Wyches (currently) ever could. If you want to look at just troops, Kabals are king ATM.
And i wont do the math for you know... but Bloodbrides are one of the worst units in the game (currently). being 13pts for a +1 attack Wych is insane. They are 2pts less than a Troupe, which always has a 4++, and an additional +1 attack, along with a better pistol, every model can take a weapon and better pistol, finally they are troops compare to an elite.
For "Index" DE as a Melee opt unit that can fit into Raider/venoms, Incubi are very good. Beasts are also very good but can not go in vehicles. Grots and wracks are playable for melee units and i would say better than Wyches/Bloodbrides but only against S4 and S5, as they can be wounded on a 5+ with a Haemonculus and Coven lists vs mass S3 is actually a good counter.
Edit: Dont forget that we are still in Index and many things will become cheaper and better. Incubi when all index's seemed really good until codex started coming out and things got better and cheaper with Mass hordes or Mass shooting, it became important to kill off units due to ignore moral phase's and to get past bubble wrapping.
As we are seeing this is still a problem, but also changing as more codex's comes out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/28 14:50:29
It's more that str 3 is pathetic in most cases. Even the strength 4 of incubi is kinda meh. They under-performed in my game vs nids and honestly it would've been a better list without them. There's too much toughness of 5 or more in the game for incubi to be effective unless taken in numbers. Maybe against my next MEQ opponent i'll feel different.
@Blackie:
Scourge are only good with dark lances and extra bodies for ablative wounds. Normally the 36" range ensures only longer ranged weapons hit which usually don't have the numbers to take down a full squad of 10 very quickly.
Sharcarbine ones are ok on their own but not too much.
The other weapons choices are a waste of time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/01 02:37:30
I'm a Ynnari/Corsairs player, and I want to add more close combat to my army. How do Wyches and Incubi compare with Howling Banshees? Banshees have two attacks at Str3 and -3ap and a shuriken pistol, so they're sort of halfway between the two in offense, but at 13 points they're also halfway between them in points. Banshees are a lot faster than either, roughly as durable as Incubi (4+ and -1 to attack rolls against them in the Fight phase), and ignore overwatch.
Or should I just spring for a few more points and get Harlequins?
Does anyone have mathhammer to add? I think all the comparisons are just making me more confused and indecisive.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/02 00:10:05
2018/03/02 08:35:35
Subject: Re:Archons WW@?! Dark Eldar 8th Edition Tactics!
Atlatl Jones wrote: I'm a Ynnari/Corsairs player, and I want to add more close combat to my army. How do Wyches and Incubi compare with Howling Banshees? Banshees have two attacks at Str3 and -3ap and a shuriken pistol, so they're sort of halfway between the two in offense, but at 13 points they're also halfway between them in points. Banshees are a lot faster than either, roughly as durable as Incubi (4+ and -1 to attack rolls against them in the Fight phase), and ignore overwatch.
Or should I just spring for a few more points and get Harlequins?
Harlequins are miles ahead of wyches and usually better than incubi.
With embraces, they hit harder than incubi (4 S4 AP -3 attacks for 21pts, instead of 3 for 18pts, and they also have pistols), but a little bit more fragile against AP0 weapons (you mentioned Ynnari, so I'm not including PfP here).
But on top of that, they have access to incredibly good pistols, and much better HQ choices. A troupe master really helps the overall damage output, and makes Harlequins useful against T5+ targets, where Incubi will just struggle. And of course the harlies could still engage high T targets with their pistols.
2018/03/02 20:30:54
Subject: Archons WW@?! Dark Eldar 8th Edition Tactics!
Hey guys, I got some money for my Birthday and looking to do a purchase. I am either going to buy a Razorwing or Voidraven.
I was just wondering what is the general consensus on these 2 flyers? Are they any good, do the work the same way, which is better etc.
I would also like to know the general sizes of these as well if possible. If both of them are around the same size I will probably buy 2 Razorwings and just play them as either of them. But, if the Voidraven is quite bigger then I will get one of those instead.
Atlatl Jones wrote: I'm a Ynnari/Corsairs player, and I want to add more close combat to my army. How do Wyches and Incubi compare with Howling Banshees? Banshees have two attacks at Str3 and -3ap and a shuriken pistol, so they're sort of halfway between the two in offense, but at 13 points they're also halfway between them in points. Banshees are a lot faster than either, roughly as durable as Incubi (4+ and -1 to attack rolls against them in the Fight phase), and ignore overwatch.
Or should I just spring for a few more points and get Harlequins?
Harlequins are miles ahead of wyches and usually better than incubi.
With embraces, they hit harder than incubi (4 S4 AP -3 attacks for 21pts, instead of 3 for 18pts, and they also have pistols), but a little bit more fragile against AP0 weapons (you mentioned Ynnari, so I'm not including PfP here).
But on top of that, they have access to incredibly good pistols, and much better HQ choices. A troupe master really helps the overall damage output, and makes Harlequins useful against T5+ targets, where Incubi will just struggle. And of course the harlies could still engage high T targets with their pistols.
I second this, Harlequins are better alround compare to anything DE has and melee opt for CWE other than Shiny Spears (they are amazing)
Odrankt wrote:Hey guys, I got some money for my Birthday and looking to do a purchase. I am either going to buy a Razorwing or Voidraven.
I was just wondering what is the general consensus on these 2 flyers? Are they any good, do the work the same way, which is better etc.
I would also like to know the general sizes of these as well if possible. If both of them are around the same size I will probably buy 2 Razorwings and just play them as either of them. But, if the Voidraven is quite bigger then I will get one of those instead.
Thanks for the help!
RWJF and Voidbombers are both really good and generally do almost the same thing but the RWJF is a bit more TAC where the Vbomber is more anti Elite infantry, or Anti T8.
Many like them more than Ravagers b.c of the -1 to hit. The RWJF can also take Dis Cannons where the Vbomber can not. But over all if you want Dis Cannons, take the Bomber with Missiles/Scythes, it is better over all. If you want a more general unit the basic RWJF is it.
The Vbomver has the Bomb but no Missiles
The Vbomber can have S9 as well, so against armies like DG, it is much better (mass spam of T8)
I personally like the Vbomber much better, i have 5 RWJF's and used them in 8th a lot, i also have Vbombers and i just highly enjoy them more and they seem to do more over all. I run 2, 1 Scythes, 1 Voidlances.
I checked eldar, harlequinns and dark eldar and i have to say the other two factions have more units that shine than dark eldar. Dark eldar are more in the middle but don't shine with as many units. It's nothing on the side of dark reapers or anything. Perhaps we can spam dark lances but i think that's it really. Then again i didn't give it the longest look.
flamingkillamajig wrote: I checked eldar, harlequinns and dark eldar and i have to say the other two factions have more units that shine than dark eldar. Dark eldar are more in the middle but don't shine with as many units. It's nothing on the side of dark reapers or anything. Perhaps we can spam dark lances but i think that's it really. Then again i didn't give it the longest look.
This is pretty much the state of the Dark Eldar until the Codex. Dark Lances are great, Kabalites are good just because they're so cheap, there are a few units that can do interesting things, but they don't currently have any outstanding choices.
2018/03/04 18:30:09
Subject: Archons WW@?! Dark Eldar 8th Edition Tactics!
Yea there is not much use over analyzing the garbage we currently have either since the book is slated for anytime in the next 4-6 weeks. Much will probably change.
So my store has some difficulties getting models in and I was thinking about dabbling in Dark Eldar and getting some models before the codex comes out and it potentially gets hard for me to get some, so what models should I start looking at besides the basic troop choices?
2018/03/05 02:32:59
Subject: Archons WW@?! Dark Eldar 8th Edition Tactics!
I'm not the expert here but as i was saying right now dark lances seem good. Hard to say what will change but i think amish or somebody said enough will stay the same that they'll probably stay decent.
Dark lances have good long distance range and do decent damage with a nice strength. Right now it's pretty much the only worthy heavy weapon on a scourge unit. I'd just like to point out at a distance scourge with dark lances do pretty well. For some reason at long range most enemies have trouble killing them quickly enough though long ranged anti-tank is actually fairly common. I've seen those dark lance scourge (in squads of 10) last longer than the ravagers so i say in some situations they can be worth it.
Of course in about a month's time this could all change so i dunno.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/03/05 02:35:21
I think one of the two flyers, a unit of incubi, a couple of venoms and raiders should be standard units and quite safe to get even before the codex drops.
2018/03/06 00:48:29
Subject: Archons WW@?! Dark Eldar 8th Edition Tactics!
Blackie wrote: I think one of the two flyers, a unit of incubi, a couple of venoms and raiders should be standard units and quite safe to get even before the codex drops.
Honestly i get the feeling splinter racks will be a thing on raiders again soon so a party barge of warriors sounds very likely. We have no clue however. Considering it twin-linked splinter weapons and that has turned into 2 shots rather than re-rolls to hit i think we could get some stupid firepower from those things. 2 trueborn squads with 2 splinter cannons each for a total of 4 would throw out some nasty poisoned damage. If splinter cannons remain as they are (which they currently suck) it'd be rapid fire 3 turned to maybe rapid fire 6 if we're lucky. So 48 shots at 18" range with 4 guns not even counting all the rifles which between 6 guys at their 12" range gets another 24 shots. They probably won't do that though even though it'd make them halfway decent. The cost might be high too.
Part of my problem with this is transports cost a lot of points now. Dark eldar tend to be a mounted force (or at least had that as one of their vibes) and that's kinda not as possible anymore with the high cost. Even before 8th the extra raider upgrades were kinda meh.
I actually don't have the highest hopes for incubi. Their ap is good and their armor is good but their damage potential and strength is low. Lots of things with good armor have high toughness and multiple wounds now and possibly FnP. The basic way around multiple wounds and FnP is doing multiple wound damage but incubi can't really do that reliably. I just looked the other day at harlequinn troops and their normal squads have 4+ inv. save, advance and still charge and like multiple weapon options and they're troops. Incubi are probably ok in cost in comparison but the lack of different loadouts is a problem. The only thing incubi get is demiklaives for the squad leader and so far i've never felt the need to use one over a normal klaive except with maybe drazhar.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/06 01:00:08
Have I been away from the army for so long that people aren't using Dark Eldar as a mounted force? Yowza. Raiders may be expensive, but at least in my own experience with them in 8th they're well worth the cost (more than can be said for most transports). They've got a solid anti-tank gun which doesn't become useless while you move the troops around, you can fire from it at full effectiveness while zipping 14" around the board, and you can use it as an incredibly effective assault tool to take down overwatch, tie up other tanks, and generally be a massive nuisance with the super long profile+pointy bit letting you absolutely abuse the "closest model" pile in rules.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2018/03/06 12:53:24
Subject: Archons WW@?! Dark Eldar 8th Edition Tactics!
I usually bring lots of vehicles as well. 3 ravagers are a must have, and I also bring a couple of raiders and 4-5 venoms. Venoms are definitely lackluster but since I don't own the beasts I need multiple expendable units on the ground and 5 man kabalite warriors in venoms are not that bad. Venoms are also 35 points cheaper than raiders and I don't need more than 10-12 lances anyway in my average games.
2018/03/06 18:16:01
Subject: Archons WW@?! Dark Eldar 8th Edition Tactics!
Well, the current meta kinda counters our transport lists. Even aside from Dark Reapers, most codex armies have enough firepower to pick the transports with the most points in them and wipe them off the board. Which kinda leads me to why I never take Raiders any more...
You REALLY need the -1 to hit on the Venoms. On top of that, Raiders are damn hard to hide due to the sails poking up over terrain. If it weren't for style points I'd do some modeling to Raiders to remove the sails. Plus, most units aren't worth taking in high numbers because since we're so fragile, you need the MSU. I had the exact opposite opinion early on in 8th, I was a Raider fanboy. Playing against armies where opponents were using competitive meta lists changed that real quick.
The same complaint for Ravagers. I'm honestly thinking about ditching them in favor of Scourge w/ Lances.
2018/03/07 09:57:00
Subject: Archons WW@?! Dark Eldar 8th Edition Tactics!
In my meta there's more fear of the hordes than armored stuff, and the dark reaper spam doesn't even exist, there's no player that brings more than 10.
Footslogging dudes, including scourges, really melt against massive S4-5-6 shots.
I agree about venoms and the MSU style. I'd also like to try 1-2 beastpacks with tons of birds that should help a lot. But at the moment I consider drukhari almost unplayable in any semi-competitive meta or better ones, sadly,
2018/03/07 14:15:21
Subject: Archons WW@?! Dark Eldar 8th Edition Tactics!
Blackie wrote: But at the moment I consider drukhari almost unplayable in any semi-competitive meta or better ones, sadly,
Yeah, I'm souring on them very quickly at the moment. I'm simply finding that they don't bring enough firepower to justify how fragile they are. They're not even remarkably fast as an army.
2018/03/09 22:01:37
Subject: Archons WW@?! Dark Eldar 8th Edition Tactics!
Chippen wrote: Well, the current meta kinda counters our transport lists. Even aside from Dark Reapers, most codex armies have enough firepower to pick the transports with the most points in them and wipe them off the board. Which kinda leads me to why I never take Raiders any more...
You REALLY need the -1 to hit on the Venoms. On top of that, Raiders are damn hard to hide due to the sails poking up over terrain. If it weren't for style points I'd do some modeling to Raiders to remove the sails. Plus, most units aren't worth taking in high numbers because since we're so fragile, you need the MSU. I had the exact opposite opinion early on in 8th, I was a Raider fanboy. Playing against armies where opponents were using competitive meta lists changed that real quick.
The same complaint for Ravagers. I'm honestly thinking about ditching them in favor of Scourge w/ Lances.
I have MANY games with Scourges vs Ravagers.
Scourges are 1 hit wonders, always (I played with 5 units of them)
Ravagers at least in ALL my games have had 1-3 live almost all game (again i had 5 of them)
I will never take Scourges again via Index honestly, they do the same damage and 1/4 the survivability after turn 1.
Ive been playing with 3 Ravagers and 2 Reapers lately, the Reapers stopping advancements is awesome, and since we have fly, i just start on/in terrain in places that i dont need to move if i can help it, I normally dont move them for 3 turns at least.
If you are playing Raiders and Venoms you NEED Haemonculus on the field, T6 is important, HB like go from 4+ to 5+, assault cannon like goes from 3+ to 4+, the few S10 are no 3+ and mass S3 are now 5+ to 6+
If you are IG/Daemon or SM meta area its important, tho... against CWE it doesnt matter to much due to mass S5/6/8
I say it depends. If you face an enemy that is all about being up in your face with alpha strike then yeah scourge fall flat on their faces. However against armies that start off from a distance and move up or just shoot from range the scourge with dark lances are better. I think it's more about what you're facing.
Either wasy Ravagers are more survivable tho. they have same range, but Ravagers can move and fire without penalty, have higher toughness, better saves, and more wounds FOR THE SAME POINTS. Especially against mid-range armies or walking ones with same range (36" b.c we can be 12" or more out and then move and shoot, can even advance and shoot), also slower armies like Daemons need to advance, another reason a Reaper is better.
Scourges are only better in one situation, you can kept hem alive through an Alpha strike via DSing them.
I don't like scourges. Our army is basically full of T5-6 multiwounds models, we don't have many footsloggers. And all the anti infantry goes to the scourges, that are still very squishy dudes.
If they arrive by deepstrike with dark lances they hit on 4s. I think ravagers and flyers are way more effective since they compete to soak the same weapons. With fielding scourges you're offering your opponent a good target for his anti infantry.
If only HBs could knock 75%+ off the wounds of a vehicle in a single turn, I'd use them a lot, like I did in the previous edition. Right now they seem kinda useless to me.
Even with shardcarbines they fail to be useful, I'd just bring 5 kabalites in a venoms instead.
2018/03/10 11:53:21
Subject: Archons WW@?! Dark Eldar 8th Edition Tactics!
If scourges were not the same cost (well 10pts difference) for 1/2 the wounds and 1/2 the toughness. If they were cheaper be a ok amount, then that would be a different story.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/10 11:54:14
If I recall correctly the Scourge deepstrike does not count as a move so they do not get a -1 to hit when they land unless it has been FAQ-ed somewhere.
Also noticed this on a Drukhari group regarding the upcoming codex.
No more trueborns in our codex.
Covens/wyches/kabal will have bonuses when in pure detachments.
Bikes are back, with CC turn 1.
Haemonculus will be a must have.
Apparently taken from this video, but I do not speak French so I could be wrong.
If trueborns are gone and nothing else (Kabals) to put in there place (I would think Bloodbrides are gone now too then), then that is fething stupid, DE has already had many units taken away.
But "ON a Positive note" i have talked to someone with the codex (he wont say much). He is trying to ensure me that its a great codex and i will like it.
If there is any (? French) speakers i would love to know whats in it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/16 11:26:07
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
