Shadenuat wrote: So, Forgeworld:
- Shadow Spectres would have to treck on their own under enemy fire - no transport for them
- No Outrider detach made out of flyers (aww)
- Scorpion, not sure if buffed or nerfed. On one hand, it lost about 10% of it's firepower or so? On the other, it's now stable damage, extra wounds won't be lost when shooting at W3 squads and, say, necron Quantium shields are way less effective against it.
First so that we can use all our psychic powers to their fullest, but with so much spite spam it would be good to change it in every new codex for each faction to be different OR to make it a generic shooting attack like it was in some editions.
Keep the buff type psychics in that phase and the shooting/killing in the shooting phase.
Has anyone worked out how to beat horde armies in particular IG players who bring hordes of infantry with tank support? It is the only army i am finding almost impossible to win against.
Generally i'm facing.
100 -150 conscripts backed by commissars.
Plenty of tank/arty support
AT support.
Sentinels for cheap lascannons.
beachedwalrusau wrote: Has anyone worked out how to beat horde armies in particular IG players who bring hordes of infantry with tank support? It is the only army i am finding almost impossible to win against.
Play objectives, and bring a tough ranged AT unit or three to hurt the tanks.
beachedwalrusau wrote: Has anyone worked out how to beat horde armies in particular IG players who bring hordes of infantry with tank support? It is the only army i am finding almost impossible to win against.
War walkers would be a good start. Keep em cheap with dual Shuricannons and use their extra move to get close to the enemy. You should be easily able to shoot something up and chrage on Turn 1. Whilst they won't kill a great deal, they won't be at risk from much either so provided you charge something nice and shooty, your opponent's firepower will be hindered while the rest of your army gets up close and personal with him.
Use your Wave Serpents aggressively and don't hesitate to charge with them. Since they can Fly, you can back out of combat in your turn and shoot at full effect. If your opponent withdraws, his shooting will be hindered once again.
Hemlocks with Conceal are great as their D-Scythes are brutal against just about anything and with -2 to Hit, Guard will be looking for 6s to even scratch them.
Thanks, so the idea is to lock up those conscripts in hand to hand with transports/walkers and take out the tanks with AT/planes. I will give that a go! I always forget to charge my vehicles into hand to hand.
That's probably about the same for Guardians. It's a little worse for their current best use, which is hopping out of a Serpent and lighting something up. It's a lot better for Guardians which are standing around near a heavy weapons platform, but this could use a buff anyway because I don't see why anyone would take Guardians for this as-is.
It's generally worse for vehicles and they'd be even more likely to upgrade to cannons.
beachedwalrusau wrote: Has anyone worked out how to beat horde armies in particular IG players who bring hordes of infantry with tank support? It is the only army i am finding almost impossible to win against.
Play objectives, and bring a tough ranged AT unit or three to hurt the tanks.
"Play Objectives" is much easier when they're spread out and Eldar can take advantage of their mobility. My last game with IG was "the relic" and he just sat 100 conscripts on it (had I moved to take it first, I wouldn't have been able to get away from a 400 dice triple buffed* conscript volley... so I decided to wait). In retrospect, I should have tried to soften the conscripts up with all my Shuriken Cannon fire every turn, but that would have meant leaving alive all the heavy weapons teams so... I dunno. By the time I made a final push to steal the relic away it was too late and I didn't have enough left to dent the blob.
I feel like guard deploys with more guardsmen than I have bullets (or... errr... sliced discs of mono-molecule spinning blades) and more tanks than I have AT weapon mounts. They're always going to be a hard match-up.
*Buffs: searchlights for +1BS, re-roll 1 aura, and frfsrf -233 hits, 116 wounds (on T3 Eldar), and that's 71 dead guardians (hint, that's more than I had)
I get the feeling that one way to resolve some balance issues here is to nerf Conscripts (original idea, I know). Rather than a nerf to durability or damage, or a points increase (which could render the unit useless), add the following special rule:
Cowards Conscripts do not want to be in battle. They only reason they are there is because the Commissar is standing behind them. When the Commissar is not looking, some will attempt to flee. Whenever this unit would normally take losses due to a failure of morale, but is under the influence of a Commissar, the Commissar is forced to execute 1 Conscripts for every 10 men the unit started with, instead of 1. This means that a unit that started with 50 men will lose 5 men for every Commissar-supported morale failure.
I think pincer tactics are very important for giant blobs of things like guard. In other words, try to attack both ends of the blob at the same time.
The only power hordes have in melee is the ability to pile in and surround you. 3 or 4 orks or whatever don't do much, it's the 15 you need to worry about!
Get your transport attacking first and taking overwatch in the middle, then attack their right flank with the troops and the left flank with another unit.
if you are attacking them like this then the unit's pile in moves will pull it in different directions.
You then give them real hard decisions over where they take their casualties from... probably their best option would be to try and remove models from the side that's not yet attacked - ideally to get the unit that charged to now be more than 1" away and unable to activate. You want to try and make sure they can't easily do that.
beachedwalrusau wrote: Thanks, so the idea is to lock up those conscripts in hand to hand with transports/walkers and take out the tanks with AT/planes. I will give that a go! I always forget to charge my vehicles into hand to hand.
That would be my general approach I think. Guard are pretty poor in assault and if you can deny a conscript blob its shooting for a turn, it could well be worth the likely sacrifice of a War walker to achieve it.
If you can play a mission that requires your opponent to move, that will help a lot too. Guard tanks don't like moving and shooting if they can help it. A static gunline is ideal for them so maybe try maelstrom and play for objectives.
They just take the order to fall back and shoot if you try to "lock" them in close combat, and they already got to shoot overwatch at you, and attack you in close combat as well... you don't gain a whole lot by charging them unless you've got a unit that will actually kill them in close combat. Meanwhile you guarantee them a unit in their 12" rapid fire range.
I'd say it's a situational strategy at best (unless you have a melee unit/army, in which case conscripts make for a fine target)
Will have to wait until something would be done to conscripts by updates. For their price as they are now, they should have either 6+ save or toughness of 2 and BS 5+ or something.
The most effective unit against them are Guardians - with all the buffs 20 guardians can kill around 30 conscripts with shooting and charging. But only pure foot army can field enough of them to deal with more than 50-100.
I think sniping out comissars also might be crucial there. It's at least worth a try.
Wyldcarde wrote:At least if they are falling back and shooting they don't first rank Fire second rank fire.
Yeah, but compare it to just staying outside of their 12" rapid fire range. At 24" frfsrf gives them 100 shots. If you move in to charge, they get 100 overwatch shots, anywhere from 20 to 50 close combat attacks, then rapid fire for 100 more shots (minus whatever you killed on the charge) after falling back. You better kill a lot of them for that to be worth it. At best, you are redirecting a lot of their attacks towards something they weren't going to waste time with, and after all that they don't really care! Their massive damage potential is mostly just a bonus; they are there to hold ground and get in the way.
By the way, it was mentioned to use single war-walker, but they only need to do a little better than average to kill a war-walker in overwatch and cc alone... and then you've thrown away your war-walker and they still have frfsrf the next turn.
Shadenuat wrote:Will have to wait until something would be done to conscripts by updates. For their price as they are now, they should have either 6+ save or toughness of 2 and BS 5+ or something.
The most effective unit against them are Guardians - with all the buffs 20 guardians can kill around 30 conscripts with shooting and charging. But only pure foot army can field enough of them to deal with more than 50-100.
I think sniping out comissars also might be crucial there. It's at least worth a try.
I feel like rangers are a good choice against IG, with their many small officers that provide useful buffs all being susceptible to smallish number of rangers... but I think they're a waste of points against most armies. 100 points for a basic unit that will output 1-3 wounds per turn depending on the characters being targeted and how many lucky 6's come up. Some armies are going to be fielding characters that will take the whole game to kill just one.
Shadenuat wrote: Will have to wait until something would be done to conscripts by updates. For their price as they are now, they should have either 6+ save or toughness of 2 and BS 5+ or something.
The most effective unit against them are Guardians - with all the buffs 20 guardians can kill around 30 conscripts with shooting and charging. But only pure foot army can field enough of them to deal with more than 50-100.
I think sniping out comissars also might be crucial there. It's at least worth a try.
I disagree. Striking Scorpions are the best unit we have against them. Set em up 9 inches away, fire there pistols, spend a command point if you have to and try and get a 8 inch charge and they will get in and rip a bunch to shreds every turn. If they fall back charge them again, if they stay on the objective you get more pistol shots during your shooting phase. Mandiblasters will kill 1 or 2 extra every phase and Exarch with Chainsabres will hopefully generate additional attacks. If they are in cover your hitting on 2's, Str 4 with everything so wounding on 3's wont even need Doom. Maybe toss a Fortune there way from a Farseer but they have 3+ saves so not bad. Multiple units of SS might not be a bad idea vs IG conscript blobs. Use the rest of your army for AT and get rid of those tanks.
I had some success shooting warp spiders into them. Launched them across the board into their face the turn before before guiding them up and shooting twice with word of the Phoenix. Killed probably 40? Or could have moved twice to jump them back out of range to do it again. Hit and running with soulburst can be useful.
Shadenuat wrote: Will have to wait until something would be done to conscripts by updates. For their price as they are now, they should have either 6+ save or toughness of 2 and BS 5+ or something.
The most effective unit against them are Guardians - with all the buffs 20 guardians can kill around 30 conscripts with shooting and charging. But only pure foot army can field enough of them to deal with more than 50-100.
I think sniping out comissars also might be crucial there. It's at least worth a try.
I disagree. Striking Scorpions are the best unit we have against them. Set em up 9 inches away, fire there pistols, spend a command point if you have to and try and get a 8 inch charge and they will get in and rip a bunch to shreds every turn. If they fall back charge them again, if they stay on the objective you get more pistol shots during your shooting phase. Mandiblasters will kill 1 or 2 extra every phase and Exarch with Chainsabres will hopefully generate additional attacks. If they are in cover your hitting on 2's, Str 4 with everything so wounding on 3's wont even need Doom. Maybe toss a Fortune there way from a Farseer but they have 3+ saves so not bad. Multiple units of SS might not be a bad idea vs IG conscript blobs. Use the rest of your army for AT and get rid of those tanks.
Overwatch alone will kill 5 of your scorpions, and then another 1 or 2 in combat assuming you have a full 10 and aren't already wiped out. Your unit could be wiped out by morale before you make them fall back even once.... and oh yes this great counter unit costs about as much as the conscripts AND the buffing characters for the conscripts.
Eldar melee units are some of the worst melee units in the game, for the points, and conscripts are the most points efficient thing in the game. It was never gonna end well
Shadenuat wrote: Will have to wait until something would be done to conscripts by updates. For their price as they are now, they should have either 6+ save or toughness of 2 and BS 5+ or something.
The most effective unit against them are Guardians - with all the buffs 20 guardians can kill around 30 conscripts with shooting and charging. But only pure foot army can field enough of them to deal with more than 50-100.
I think sniping out comissars also might be crucial there. It's at least worth a try.
I disagree. Striking Scorpions are the best unit we have against them. Set em up 9 inches away, fire there pistols, spend a command point if you have to and try and get a 8 inch charge and they will get in and rip a bunch to shreds every turn. If they fall back charge them again, if they stay on the objective you get more pistol shots during your shooting phase. Mandiblasters will kill 1 or 2 extra every phase and Exarch with Chainsabres will hopefully generate additional attacks. If they are in cover your hitting on 2's, Str 4 with everything so wounding on 3's wont even need Doom. Maybe toss a Fortune there way from a Farseer but they have 3+ saves so not bad. Multiple units of SS might not be a bad idea vs IG conscript blobs. Use the rest of your army for AT and get rid of those tanks.
This is quickly becoming a major pet peeve, and the sooner people realise how it works the sooner we can stop people spreading crazy ideas like this. When you set up the Scorpions you have to be OVER 9" away, which means in order to charge you need to roll a 9. They also get overwatch in this theoretical scenario and will be able to strike back with a large number of attacks. I would also like to see an actual practical scenario where a unit of Conscripts is in cover - its rare to see 10 man units getting entirely within a terrain feature now let alone a 50 man blob.
So, just to theory this out a bit more. You set up over 9" away, you fire pistols and kill 2 or 3 - which will likely increase the charge numbers you need by 1" (I am assuming here that your opponent has a brain, and will take the closest models to you). You then declare a charge, at which point they get lets say 10 guys in Rapid Fire range and the rest outside, so 57 shots = 1-2 dead Scorpions (this obviously get much worse if the unit is compressed and are all within 12" some how). Then you need to roll a 9 (possibly even a 10 if you shot too well), which is barely a 50% chance to get in assuming you burn a command point for this. If you do get in they lose a couple to Mandiblasters, then you get 14 attacks with your remaining guys, netting just over 4 kills on average + another 1-2 from the Exarch. At this point they get to strike back, which again is very tricky to work out because it depends greatly on how spread the unit is. I'm going to assume 25 guys get to swing (which is basically the front rank of ~10 guys you engaged with the Scorpions and a rank behind that), which kills another Scorpion.
So overall we have killed 11 Conscripts (rounding everything up here), and have lost 3 Scorpions. The Commisar kills one more and they hold, and you are already down on the trade if you compare points. If you purely left those to units there to grind it out the Conscripts likely come out on top (things only get worse for the Scorpions as they lose attacks and the Conscripts all pile in), and here we are talking about a 190pt unit making a 50/50 charge and then losing a straight up fight to a 150pt unit (+ the Commissar I guess, but he wasn't involved in the combat in this scenario either). That also ignores the main reason that Conscripts are in a list in the first place, which is to absorb charges like this, then simply fall back out of combat and let other units shoot the Scorpions to pieces.
Tbh this really highlights a couple of major problems - firstly that the removal of AP from basic infantry weapons has left cheap screening units being dis-proportionally hard to removal. Secondly that sniping out the Commissar isn't actually that valuable unless you are focusing the Conscripts down (which means shooting them with multiple units), because in this scenario they lose another 10 or so guys and then just back out of combat. Finally it also highlights the existing problems with Aspect Warriors haven't gone away at all, Banshees still bounce off of power armoured targets, Scorpions don't completely massacre light infantry etc etc.
Scorpions are even less effective against light infantry than Banshees actually, especially if infantry could get a 4+ armor save. The most effective melee are Harlequins. Warp Spiders are as effective as Shuriken cannon jetbikes.
Lead with a Wraithlord to absob Overwatch, follow with Scorpions. The 'Lord will yawn at Lasgun shots that hit on 6 and wound on 6 (with no AP), the Scorpions should launch 10-ish wounds from melee (on top of a few from shooting), morale will take out aboth 5-10. It's a huge Tarpit, but it only lasts a couple of rounds against the one-two punch. (Remember, 50 Conscripts + Commissar is still around 200 points. Don't be afraid to send as much against them as they cost!)
Now we're talking ~150 pts of Wraithlord + 190 pts of Scorpions against 180 pts of guard. And still we are far from a statistically reliable result of shifting that blob of conscripts.
I concur that the mentioned units SHOULD be hard counters to flimsy guardsmen once they get to them. But they arem't in the concurrent scenario of rules and points costs.
Best bet would be concentration of force to things that can't be dodged, artillery and such. then kite immobile infantry and play to objectives. It is an uphill battle agaibst guard. But it is for everyone atm.
Besides, doomed conscripts die quickly to focussed fire. That leaves tje rest of the army to do whatever they want though...
Afterthought: Swooping Hawks do really good against GEQ, plus the blind softens return fire a bit. Still far from optimal, but pointswise per conscript killed, it's the best i could come up with so far. A full unit could hover around the 24" and kill 5 GEQ a turn for a mild cost plus the option to jump in and rapid fire/ charge.
Sunrifle doesn't do anything. It only affects one round of melee. Hawks are more effective against T3 infantry than some other units, but regular Guardians are at least 25% more effective than them.
Deathypoo wrote: They just take the order to fall back and shoot if you try to "lock" them in close combat, and they already got to shoot overwatch at you, and attack you in close combat as well... you don't gain a whole lot by charging them unless you've got a unit that will actually kill them in close combat. Meanwhile you guarantee them a unit in their 12" rapid fire range.
I'd say it's a situational strategy at best (unless you have a melee unit/army, in which case conscripts make for a fine target)
I don't get your logic here.
If you don't assault them, they are going to shoot you twice each, hitting on 5's.
If you do assault them, they get to shoot once, hitting on 6's then the survivors of that combat shoot once hitting on 5's.
It's way better.
Clearly if you can stay out of their range and kite them around, killing 20+ conscripts a turn then fine. Do that! But the discussion stemmed from someone saying they couldn't do that.
Shadenuat wrote: Sunrifle doesn't do anything. It only affects one round of melee. Hawks are more effective against T3 infantry than some other units, but regular Guardians are at least 25% more effective than them.
Just reread sunrifle and sadly you're right (would it negate overwatch though?).
Considering the Guardians i disagree, Guardians either need a transport (~150 pts for a serpent) or die as soon as they get within 24" as they are unlikely to close to within 12" without getting shot up.
Summary: Screw conscripts. sadface.
I'll still try hawks against them
I'm thinking of getting a squad of 5 from FW.. Dont know if the Exarch is worth the extra money...
Spectres look quite good and flexible on paper. Fast moving heavy flamers fill a niche where Wraithguards with warpscythes would be overkill(+ spectres are cheaper)
And elite hunting might be funny when they are guided by a Farseer, ensuring more hits with the S6 AP-3 profile.
Sunrifle doesn't affect overwatch as it's a 6 regardless of modifiers.
If you can somehow soulburst your Hawks to shoot in the opponent's turn then it works for negating their shooting. Otherwise it just helps in the return melee from the charge.
Unfortunately. I feel like the sun rifle and nightfire missiles of the Phoenix would be just fine if it lasted until the start of the next eldar shooting phase. As it is there is little point in taking them for their ability.
Just reread sunrifle and sadly you're right (would it negate overwatch though?).
Nah, doesn't even do that since OW hits on 6 regardless of any modifiers.
I actually play Hawks, with all the buffs they can kill about 15 GEQ a turn, and with Soulburst they bring their points back, which I think just shows how atrocious they actually are at their job if you need to give them doom/autarch/soulburst and they still barely work. Their grenade pack is also almost but useless if enemy places their troops in at least more or less reasonable way and has anything to kick T3 elfs in melee after they try and jump over his unit. I think from all the herpaderp abilities that jump over one takes the cake.
Hawks were absolutely brilliant in previous edition with long range assault lasblasters, grenade pack that ignored cover and haywire grenades, I liked them even after 1 haywire grenade/unit fix, and it's painful to see what happened to them. Everything in their previous design made sense, from long range shooting to no-LOS blast and stuff, and everything in their new design makes no sense. You don't want expensive fragile elfs in rapid fire range, you really don't.
Shadow spectres are awesome. The two modes of fire are both great in certain circumstances. -1 to hit and 3+ armour can survive a decent amount of shooting, and flame mode makes them a daunting prospect to charge.
Add in guide and conceal from the psychic support and their abilities are both more powerful. Plus their 14 inch move and fly make them difficult to pin down and easy to get into soulburst range where they can just unleash a barrage again.
They have been high priority targets each game I have used them in. But does keep the heat off some more vulnerable units. I've been running mine in conjunction with warp spiders and hemlocks and sky runner warlocks to form a hard to hit flanking force that unleashes a boatload of strength 6 shots.
Wyldcarde wrote: Shadow spectres are awesome. The two modes of fire are both great in certain circumstances. -1 to hit and 3+ armour can survive a decent amount of shooting, and flame mode makes them a daunting prospect to charge.
Add in guide and conceal from the psychic support and their abilities are both more powerful. Plus their 14 inch move and fly make them difficult to pin down and easy to get into soulburst range where they can just unleash a barrage again.
They have been high priority targets each game I have used them in. But does keep the heat off some more vulnerable units. I've been running mine in conjunction with warp spiders and hemlocks and sky runner warlocks to form a hard to hit flanking force that unleashes a boatload of strength 6 shots.
Splitting hairs here. Agree with it all.. BUT they move 12" Keep in mind that they do have assault weapons so you can advance as well to get that 14" move hahaha
beachedwalrusau wrote: Has anyone worked out how to beat horde armies in particular IG players who bring hordes of infantry with tank support? It is the only army i am finding almost impossible to win against.
Play objectives, and bring a tough ranged AT unit or three to hurt the tanks.
"Play Objectives" is much easier when they're spread out and Eldar can take advantage of their mobility. My last game with IG was "the relic" and he just sat 100 conscripts on it (had I moved to take it first, I wouldn't have been able to get away from a 400 dice triple buffed* conscript volley... so I decided to wait). In retrospect, I should have tried to soften the conscripts up with all my Shuriken Cannon fire every turn, but that would have meant leaving alive all the heavy weapons teams so... I dunno. By the time I made a final push to steal the relic away it was too late and I didn't have enough left to dent the blob.
I feel like guard deploys with more guardsmen than I have bullets (or... errr... sliced discs of mono-molecule spinning blades) and more tanks than I have AT weapon mounts. They're always going to be a hard match-up.
*Buffs: searchlights for +1BS, re-roll 1 aura, and frfsrf -233 hits, 116 wounds (on T3 Eldar), and that's 71 dead guardians (hint, that's more than I had)
What gives them searchlights? Also, how did 100 of them get within 12" of the relic? Could you have screened and had a char pick it up? Relic is not the best scenario. Fun, but usually unbalanced.
What are peoples thoughts on the Aeldari Missile Launcher?
I'm mostly thinking of it as an option for War Walkers or possibly Wraithlords.
The 48" range and two fire modes means they will be able to lend fire support against pretty much any target they need to, while also being at a safe distance. The versatility seems like it will be good to support close range Ynnari units that might need help finishing off a unit for SfD. If some wraithcannons don't quite finish a tank- send the crack, if guardians leave a few infantry models alive- send the frag.
Compared with Lances they lose 2 AP and gain 12" range. Obviously not as good vs tanks and MCs that don't have invul saves although the extra range means you are less likely to have to move and suffer the -1 to hit.
Compared with Scatterlasers the frag will give you 0.5 less shots but in most cases the +1 to wound from scats is canceled by the -1 AP from frag (T5 is the exception here). 12" better range helps again.
Eldar are usually all about specialization, but that seems more important for units with short range, I think long range fire support can afford to be more general purpose (particularly if you don't have a lot of it).
The closest unit to compare AML War Walkers too is probably the Night Spinner,both have long range, general purpose firepower. You get 2 spinners for the price of 3 walkers and I'm not sure which comes out on top.
Thoughts?
EDIT: With Guide and Doom the frag from 3 War Walkers should kill about 15 conscripts. Problem solved lol.
Note that the Bright Lance is almost exactly as good as the AML using sunburst missiles against MEQs, and is significantly better against vehicles than the starshot missile.
Dionysodorus wrote: Note that the Bright Lance is almost exactly as good as the AML using sunburst missiles against MEQs, and is significantly better against vehicles than the starshot missile.
Yeah the AMLs two fire modes seem suited to either hordes or tanks, they don't do so well vs stuff in the middle. Tanks/MCs with invul saves have been a real problem for me using any army, the AMLs don't do any better vs those things than lances, but I don't feel like my weapons are being neutered as much haha.
Wierdly, thinking about this has made me like scatterwalkers more, as hordes seem harder to deal with than tanks for my Eldar lists. They're just bad though.
I have been trying Striking Scorpions lately because I like their fluff and models, but thus far they haven't been performing, and I'm not quite sure what to specifically use them again. I may need to swap them out sadly.
I really need to get some Dark Reapers though, because they seem amazing. At the moment I am really thinking of reworking my army to be mostly Wraith units instead.
Wayniac wrote: I really need to get some Dark Reapers though, because they seem amazing. At the moment I am really thinking of reworking my army to be mostly Wraith units instead.
Reapers, Dragons and Wraiths in Wave Serpents seem to be our optimum units at the moment. Dragons are cheaper than Wraithguard so I would take them for hunting big game while the Wraithguard take D-scythes and concentrate on frying MEQs etc. Shuricannons on the Wave Serpents provide some cheap horde control without hindering mobility. Reapers can threaten most targets quite well and are particularly good against flyers as they ignore the -1 to hit penalty. Add a Flyer of our own (probably the Hemlock) and maybe a Wraithlord or 2 and we are all set. It i just a case of choosing which HQs suit the build best and off we go.
The following is a 100 power list so approximately 2000 points (depending on how you juggle upgrades)
Spoiler:
Vanguard Detachment: +1CP 100 Power
Power : Unit
4 : Spiritseer HQ 6 : Farseer HQ
5 : 5 x Rangers Troops
12 : 10 x Fire Dragons Elite
10 : 5 Wraithguard with D-scythes Elite
10 : 5 Wraithblades with Shield and Axe Elite
9 : 5 Dark Reapers Heavy
7 : Wraithlord Heavy
10 : Hemlock Flyer
9 : Wave Serpent Transport
9 : Wave Serpent Transport
9 : Wave Serpent Transport
Splitting hairs here. Agree with it all.. BUT they move 12" Keep in mind that they do have assault weapons so you can advance as well to get that 14" move hahaha
Haha right you are. Not sure where I got 14 from. Even still, plenty manouverable.
Power level changes a lot when you get into the nitty gritty of list optimization. All the skimmers get more expensive than you would normally run them, wraithlords come out a bit cheaper and Dire Avengers are actually ok. A lot of the aspects are terrible at any cost.
I have to do 100PL for the Throne of Skulls I'm going too at Warhammer World and it's very annoyng.
Yeah, I was toying with PL for my Ynnari list and things didn't look good. It seemed very hard to justify most Craftworld stuff since you want to transport it all and Wave Serpents get so much more expensive. Hemlocks are slightly cheaper.
Meanwhile Dark Eldar win big with PL. A minimal Blasterborn squad is 13% cheaper, and then you get free upgrades on the dracon and can replace two of the blasters with dark lances, still paying 5 power for 142 points. Their Venoms get a free upgrade to a second splinter cannon. You save 30 points on fully-loaded Razorwing Jetfighters.
Harlequin Troupes also work out to be significantly cheaper if you're giving them all fusion pistols and power weapons.
Wayniac wrote: I really need to get some Dark Reapers though, because they seem amazing. At the moment I am really thinking of reworking my army to be mostly Wraith units instead.
Reapers, Dragons and Wraiths in Wave Serpents seem to be our optimum units at the moment. Dragons are cheaper than Wraithguard so I would take them for hunting big game while the Wraithguard take D-scythes and concentrate on frying MEQs etc. Shuricannons on the Wave Serpents provide some cheap horde control without hindering mobility. Reapers can threaten most targets quite well and are particularly good against flyers as they ignore the -1 to hit penalty. Add a Flyer of our own (probably the Hemlock) and maybe a Wraithlord or 2 and we are all set. It i just a case of choosing which HQs suit the build best and off we go.
Hemlock is amazing. I like the crimson hunter but it is just inferior to the hemlock.
Wraithlords are meh. Really dependant on the match up I've found. Still they aren't high on the kill list so can get work done.
Hq it is hard to go past the eldar psykers. Farseer brings doom which is one of our biggest weapon. Warlocks and conceal are cheap and handy and yvraine with the word of the Phoenix and a targetable (albeit more difficult to cast) smite is great support.
Wraithlords are meh. Really dependant on the match up I've found. Still they aren't high on the kill list so can get work done.
Hq it is hard to go past the eldar psykers. Farseer brings doom which is one of our biggest weapon. Warlocks and conceal are cheap and handy and yvraine with the word of the Phoenix and a targetable (albeit more difficult to cast) smite is great support.
Psykers are good but the Autarch is fairly cheap for the reroll 1s bubble. I quite like pairing a Wraithlord with 2 heavy weapons (I like Braightlances) with some Dark Reapers and an Autarch. The whole lot gets to reroll 1s when shooting and the Wraithlord can threaten stuff with heavy armour like Land Raiders. If the enemy Deep Strikes nearby, the Wraithlord can keep them off the Reapers' backs. Even Terminators will get a bruising from a Wraithlord.
Yeah fair call. Don't get me wrong autarches have their uses but I would rather be throwing around "shoot twice" then reroll ones on my dark reapers and definitely prefer doom to anything any of the other hq bring to the table.
And yeah wraithlords do have a place. I haven't been disappointed by them but I haven't been blown away by them either. Then again I tend to use mine not as a stationary gun platform and then the -1 to hit on the heavy weapons is off putting. But I can see how that becomes a solid and synergistic firebase.
The Autarch is not quite worth it for the rerolls alone but can do a bit of extra work however you set them up. Might as well give him a reaper launcher if he's hanging back. Wings allow him to skyleap then grab an objective late game. I'm a big fan of the laserlance + fusion gun skyrunner for assassinating heavy weapon teams/characters then running off with soulburst.
beachedwalrusau wrote: Has anyone worked out how to beat horde armies in particular IG players who bring hordes of infantry with tank support? It is the only army i am finding almost impossible to win against.
Play objectives, and bring a tough ranged AT unit or three to hurt the tanks.
"Play Objectives" is much easier when they're spread out and Eldar can take advantage of their mobility. My last game with IG was "the relic" and he just sat 100 conscripts on it (had I moved to take it first, I wouldn't have been able to get away from a 400 dice triple buffed* conscript volley... so I decided to wait). In retrospect, I should have tried to soften the conscripts up with all my Shuriken Cannon fire every turn, but that would have meant leaving alive all the heavy weapons teams so... I dunno. By the time I made a final push to steal the relic away it was too late and I didn't have enough left to dent the blob.
I feel like guard deploys with more guardsmen than I have bullets (or... errr... sliced discs of mono-molecule spinning blades) and more tanks than I have AT weapon mounts. They're always going to be a hard match-up.
*Buffs: searchlights for +1BS, re-roll 1 aura, and frfsrf -233 hits, 116 wounds (on T3 Eldar), and that's 71 dead guardians (hint, that's more than I had)
What gives them searchlights? Also, how did 100 of them get within 12" of the relic? Could you have screened and had a char pick it up? Relic is not the best scenario. Fun, but usually unbalanced.
Forgeworld has sabre defense platforms with searchlights for a stupidly cheap points cost.
The deployment maps all allow you to deploy within 12" of the relic at worst or 9" at best. Even if the back of the unit is out of range, they do have a 6" move before shooting.
xmbk wrote: Does the defense platform move? Seems as though it's either 4+ or 2 shots.
Not sure we're on the same page? 2x shots comes from frfsrf order from an officer, or from rapid fire, or 4x from both. The 4+ to hit comes from the searchlights on a sabre defense platform.
The defense platform doesn't move, but it grants any one unit a +1 to their BS when shooting at any one other unit, decided each turn. Thanks to a faq they can't stack on the same target, but 6 different platforms can give 6 different units +1 BS in a turn.
They need los to the target, but my table unfortunately doesn't have a lot of full los blockers. Also, my opponent took 6 of them so good luck staying out of los even on a more crowded table.
xmbk wrote: Does the defense platform move? Seems as though it's either 4+ or 2 shots.
Not sure we're on the same page? 2x shots comes from frfsrf order from an officer, or from rapid fire, or 4x from both. The 4+ to hit comes from the searchlights on a sabre defense platform.
The defense platform doesn't move, but it grants any one unit a +1 to their BS when shooting at any one other unit, decided each turn. Thanks to a faq they can't stack on the same target, but 6 different platforms can give 6 different units +1 BS in a turn.
They need los to the target, but my table unfortunately doesn't have a lot of full los blockers. Also, my opponent took 6 of them so good luck staying out of los even on a more crowded table.
Just remember that overwatch is not effected by any modifiers! Maybe this never comes into play for you.. but certainly could be misplayed!
Yeah, I assumed they had to be on it. Not sure of the cost, but I'd likely ask someone not to field that in a friendly game. Hopefully the better tournaments will address stuff like that. It's better than markerlights. With Apoc models now being a part of the base rules, I really don't see the point of FW.
Wyldcarde wrote: Shadow spectres are awesome. The two modes of fire are both great in certain circumstances. -1 to hit and 3+ armour can survive a decent amount of shooting, and flame mode makes them a daunting prospect to charge.
Add in guide and conceal from the psychic support and their abilities are both more powerful. Plus their 14 inch move and fly make them difficult to pin down and easy to get into soulburst range where they can just unleash a barrage again.
They have been high priority targets each game I have used them in. But does keep the heat off some more vulnerable units. I've been running mine in conjunction with warp spiders and hemlocks and sky runner warlocks to form a hard to hit flanking force that unleashes a boatload of strength 6 shots.
I'm just wondering, what size squads did you run them at?
I know they are 3+ right now, but I get the feeling running them as only 3 per unit will just have them shot off the table in no time.
Additionally, what weapon did you give the Exarch? I'm not sure its worth it to upgrade to the Prism Blaster or Heywire Blaster at all given how good the regular weapon is.
I run full squad of 10. But that's to maximise soulburst and guide and easier keep them in conceal. I don't think 3 man units would be great but there might be some value in 2x 5 or 6 man units. Morale isn't so much an issue for them either.
I've been trying the blaster for a bit more oomph against the hard targets but not convinced it is worth losing flame mode for. Gives them a bit more versatility tho.
Wyldcarde wrote: I run full squad of 10. But that's to maximise soulburst and guide and easier keep them in conceal. I don't think 3 man units would be great but there might be some value in 2x 5 or 6 man units. Morale isn't so much an issue for them either.
I've been trying the blaster for a bit more oomph against the hard targets but not convinced it is worth losing flame mode for. Gives them a bit more versatility tho.
Did you run one squad of 10 then? Or did you double up? (For 20?)
One squad of 10 but would definitely like to double up.
I've been playing around with 1 squad of spectres and 2 of warp spiders but thing the spectres are better for the slight extra point increase. But then there's the cost factor and difficulty to get factor to grab more spectres.
Plus I still like warp spiders for their 4d6 extra move option. Great to soulburst with that.
Am I the only one who hate Shadow Spectres for a bunch of reasons?
First, they feel tacked on into CWE. They are an unimaginative mish-mash of Dark Reapers, Warp Spiders and Wraiths. Then they behave nothing like their background says: they are supposed to be masters of long range anti-tank, but in-game they are flying heavy flamers with a cute "starcannon" on top.
Why do they even carry mini Prism weapons? Wouldn't bright lances make more sense?
On top of that the models are (imho) nothing special foro their high price. And Forge World screwed up by making them a no-brainer with their point cost. It's ridiculuous how much better they are over Spiders for just a little more.
If they are what it takes to play competitive Eldar, I will stay narrative.
I am of the entire opposite opinion. I love Shadow Spectres. I think they're awesome looking models with decent fluff and the idea of a unit using a prism like gun is pretty fun.
I'm glad they're finally extremely point efficient!
Definitely not required for eldar to be competitive. Just think they are under appreciated and in their current form in the current format they are really quite good.
But yeah they don't seem to get too much of a mention in eldar lists to justify any tableflipping and swearing off competitive.
DanielFM wrote: Am I the only one who hate Shadow Spectres for a bunch of reasons?
First, they feel tacked on into CWE. They are an unimaginative mish-mash of Dark Reapers, Warp Spiders and Wraiths. Then they behave nothing like their background says: they are supposed to be masters of long range anti-tank, but in-game they are flying heavy flamers with a cute "starcannon" on top.
Why do they even carry mini Prism weapons? Wouldn't bright lances make more sense?
On top of that the models are (imho) nothing special foro their high price. And Forge World screwed up by making them a no-brainer with their point cost. It's ridiculuous how much better they are over Spiders for just a little more.
If they are what it takes to play competitive Eldar, I will stay narrative.
This is what makes our hobby awesome.. There is something for everyone, and if you don't like one faction/model there are so many other choices.
Personally I really like the models. One of my favorites. I think the main shooting profile is extremely fluffy in its "beam" like effect. If you hit you get to get more hits.. like the beam is intensifying on its target. Super cinematic to me
So I am arming up my Cloud dancers and not sure what weapon to go with. I know the -1 to hit with scatters has pushed people to shuriken cannons, but I am concerned for the range. At that range, the enemies can shoot back. While I might hit less with SL, I can shoot from safety. How about dissonance, splinter cannons, or lances? Just like to hear to peoples opinions.
Bonachinonin wrote: So I am arming up my Cloud dancers and not sure what weapon to go with. I know the -1 to hit with scatters has pushed people to shuriken cannons, but I am concerned for the range. At that range, the enemies can shoot back. While I might hit less with SL, I can shoot from safety. How about dissonance, splinter cannons, or lances? Just like to hear to peoples opinions.
So.. if you are going to go with scatters.. and sit back.. save pionts and run them on windriders. You are paying for that special morale bonus with corsairs so being closer actually allows you to use it. Even if it means being more vulnerable.
I have looked at running splinter rifles for mass fire (6 shots at 18" ea.) and still keeping decent range. I have also considered running dark lances as a mobile AT firebase, that doesn't move unless it needs too, and at that point can reposition pretty far.
Bonachinonin wrote: So I am arming up my Cloud dancers and not sure what weapon to go with. I know the -1 to hit with scatters has pushed people to shuriken cannons, but I am concerned for the range. At that range, the enemies can shoot back. While I might hit less with SL, I can shoot from safety. How about dissonance, splinter cannons, or lances? Just like to hear to peoples opinions.
So.. if you are going to go with scatters.. and sit back.. save pionts and run them on windriders. You are paying for that special morale bonus with corsairs so being closer actually allows you to use it. Even if it means being more vulnerable.
I have looked at running splinter rifles for mass fire (6 shots at 18" ea.) and still keeping decent range. I have also considered running dark lances as a mobile AT firebase, that doesn't move unless it needs too, and at that point can reposition pretty far.
The dark lances aren't a bad choice but I feel we typically have a decent chunk of anti tank. I personally really like splinter cannons 6 shots in 18 and 3 at 36 a piece is pretty good, but vs a lot of targets it doesn't seem like 30 points to change from shuriken cannon Windriders is worth it, kind of on the edge about it. Though you should never run cloud dancers with the stock weapons they pay way to much for their weaker profile and worse special rules and 0 synergy rules to not take the unique weapon options.
I would move the avatar to mid. Reason. Sure he is tough and helps out a footdar army but he wont kill his points most games or just barely. So a mid tier
I would swap out Banshees and Wraith lords. Both are good to insert into the enemy hth units. They wont fall back and the banshees can keep up during their fight phase. WL are great to tie up opponents HTH especially nids. As a shooting unit it is way overcosted.
The Banshees have some use vs shooting armies even if they die in 1 round or 2 as (everyone but guard) don't have fallback orders yet. So they at least tie the hands of a unit for a round +
I keep finding Guardians to be at least the third best unit in the index after Serpents and Hemlocks. Their damage output is absurd, and you've got to have something to put in the Serpents anyway. You're presumably playing Ynnari, and they're also an easy thing to have within 7" of enemy units when they die. Shuriken catapults are also the ideal weapon for using with Doom, and Doom-assisted Guardians make almost all of their points back in a single round of shooting at a bunch of hard targets.
I agree with most of the rest of it.
I'm surprised you've put Yriel so low -- he seems fine. He's an Autarch with a funky pistol and a melee weapon which is better than a Laser Lance. His only real drawback is that you can't give him a bike or wings, but a cheap Autarch to throw in a Serpent is perfectly fine. His curse is not a big issue (note that he has an extra wound over a regular Autarch anyway). I would strongly consider him over a regular Autarch if I don't otherwise have anything that can charge in and do some damage in CC.
Dire Avengers should be on their own at the very bottom in the Dire Avenger tier.
Edit: Oh, and I would say that Support Batteries are at least as bad as Prisms and I would swap Warp Spiders and Windriders.
I'm surprised you've put Yriel so low -- he seems fine. He's an Autarch with a funky pistol and a melee weapon which is better than a Laser Lance. His only real drawback is that you can't give him a bike or wings, but a cheap Autarch to throw in a Serpent is perfectly fine. His curse is not a big issue (note that he has an extra wound over a regular Autarch anyway). I would strongly consider him over a regular Autarch if I don't otherwise have anything that can charge in and do some damage in CC.
Yriel's autarch aura only affects Iyanden units. This is why I put him so low. If for some reason you want to run anything other than Iyanden, then he just becomes a melee-monster with no aura.
I'm surprised you've put Yriel so low -- he seems fine. He's an Autarch with a funky pistol and a melee weapon which is better than a Laser Lance. His only real drawback is that you can't give him a bike or wings, but a cheap Autarch to throw in a Serpent is perfectly fine. His curse is not a big issue (note that he has an extra wound over a regular Autarch anyway). I would strongly consider him over a regular Autarch if I don't otherwise have anything that can charge in and do some damage in CC.
Yriel's autarch aura only affects Iyanden units. This is why I put him so low. If for some reason you want to run anything other than Iyanden, then he just becomes a melee-monster with no aura.
Why would you want to run anything else? It makes literally no difference what <Craftworld> you pick and won't until we get a codex, at which point all of this changes anyway. He doesn't even clash with Eldrad since you can just bring Eldrad in an otherwise-Iyanden army and all you lose out on is re-rolling Eldrad's 1s.
I would move farseer and eldrad to top. Doom is too good to not take. It just makes every unit in your army better.
I would move guardians to high and warp spiders mid. Rangers would be low or even bottom as their cost to output is just garbage.
I would also drop falcon to bottom. The wave serpent is just better in all ways and cheaper. The only reason to take a falcon is if you need a heavy support slot to fill out a detachment.
Kouzuki wrote: From a points PoV, am I anywhere near the ballpark in terms of the Eldar Unit Tier list?
Top: Wave Serpents, Hemlocks,
High: Eldrad, Farseers, Avatar of Khaine, Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, Wraithblades, Crimson Hunter, Dark Reapers, Night Spinner,
Mid: Autarch, Spiritseer, Warlock, Phoenix Lords, Guardian Defenders, Rangers, Shining Spears, Vypers, Windriders, War Walkers, Wraithlord,
Low: Illic Nightspear, Storm Guardians, Striking Scorpions, Howling Banshees, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, Vaul Support Battery, Falcon, Wraithknight.
Bottom: Yriel, Dire Avengers, Fire Prism,
I think this is close, but it looks almost like you wanted to balance the numbers in your middle 3 options there? No need to grade on a curve, let's go ahead and give out the failing grades as needed lol. I'd move half your "high" into "mid", half your "mid" into "low", and then re-name "low" into "situational."
Situational units could be taken if you know exactly what army you're facing, or if you build your army to really take advantage of certain things (I've been playing around with stacking T7+ armies and the WK does pretty good with that).
Oh yeah, then I would drop Vaul Support batteries and falcons into "bottom." Because support batteries are awful for the points, and falcon is 100% worse than wave serpent but costs more points.
So my personal list right now:
Top: Wave Serpents, Hemlocks,
High: Eldrad, Farseers, Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, Wraithblades, Dark Reapers
Mid: Autarch, Warlock, Guardian Defenders, Windriders, Night Spinner, Crimson Hunter,
Low/Situational: Illic Nightspear, Storm Guardians, Striking Scorpions, Howling Banshees, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, Wraithknight, Avatar of Khaine, Spiritseer, Phoenix Lords, Rangers, Shining Spears, Vypers, War Walkers, Wraithlord
Bottom/Never: Yriel, Dire Avengers, Fire Prism, Vaul Support Battery, Falcon
I think this is close, but it looks almost like you wanted to balance the numbers in your middle 3 options there? No need to grade on a curve, let's go ahead and give out the failing grades as needed lol. I'd move half your "high" into "mid", half your "mid" into "low", and then re-name "low" into "situational."
Situational units could be taken if you know exactly what army you're facing, or if you build your army to really take advantage of certain things (I've been playing around with stacking T7+ armies and the WK does pretty good with that).
Oh yeah, then I would drop Vaul Support batteries and falcons into "bottom." Because support batteries are awful for the points, and falcon is 100% worse than wave serpent but costs more points.
So my personal list right now:
Top: Wave Serpents, Hemlocks,
High: Eldrad, Farseers, Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, Wraithblades, Dark Reapers
Mid: Autarch, Warlock, Guardian Defenders, Windriders, Night Spinner, Crimson Hunter,
Low/Situational: Illic Nightspear, Storm Guardians, Striking Scorpions, Howling Banshees, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, Wraithknight, Avatar of Khaine, Spiritseer, Phoenix Lords, Rangers, Shining Spears, Vypers, War Walkers, Wraithlord
Bottom/Never: Yriel, Dire Avengers, Fire Prism, Vaul Support Battery, Falcon
I wasn't really thinking of any curve when I put that tier list together. Just went through the units in the codex one by one, and just threw them in where I felt they should it. They just came out like that I guess.
One thing I guess would be that I am looking at how each of the units compare to other units in the Eldar codex (internally) while you're probably looking at how they compare with other armies.
For good measure, perhaps we can throw one together for Ynnari, and Forgeworld units as well. I'm looking at something like the following, although admittedly I am not familiar with some of the FW units.
Shadenuat wrote: Why do people rate Night Spinner so highly? There are literally no units which it's effective against.
Well, maybe our own windriders, heh.
My only guess is that it somehow manages to be better than the Fire Prism. There is no reason to take a Fire Prism in 8e. Even if you like them, ther'tr just taking up space in your carrycases that could be used for something more competent. Like a Falcon. Or a Wave Serpent. Or Ynnead.
I think shining spears are better than situational. The new ruleset benefits them. Especially in ynnari.
The night spinner has pretty decent numbers against a wide variety of targets. It is a good all round tank. With 2d6 shots and 2 damage it can add up fast.
It doesn't shine against any one target but in a TAC list it is a solid option and doesn't break the bank.
And generally doesn't draw much attention so is around at end game to cap some objectives.
I haven't used a Night Spinner because Guardians are too good to justify giving up a Serpent's transport capacity, but it outshoots a triple cannon Serpent against many things. It's slightly worse against MEQs but of course about twice as good against anything with multiple wounds. It's as good as 10 Guardians against T7 3+, but from 48", and Guardians are actually really good against this stuff. Put another way, it shoots T7 3+ as if it's armed with a twin lascannon, and then it's a lot better against armies without vehicles.
Yeah Night Spinners are good for being able to have a go at anything. They do still have Ideal targets though, being best against bikes and light vehicles, and other units that don't need LoS like artillery. They are a god send vs Tyranid Hive Guard, who are a pain for eldar.
Hemlock is good but I dont think that it deserves the Top spot. Definitely 'High'. I would also move the Crimson hunter up to High. I am unsure how this guy is skipped. 183 pts for potentially 18D ... with bonuses to units with the FLY keyword and bs2 base which basically helps with the heavy weapon issue. This guy is a monster for the cost.
The rest i agree with. It is kind of a shame how lack luster some of the staple Eldar units are. Like Dire Avengers shouldn't be top teir.. but they deserve better than Below the bottom lol.
The one issue with grading units like this is your local meta. For some WKs might rule the day because no one brings shadowswords to any games. But for others quite the opposite... so consider what your meta is before picking units based off these lists!
I have so far played a tournament where I came 4th with him and another 4'games where he has performed great.
Yes he is not the OP he used to be, but he is still great with wraith cannons. People keep on going for suncsnnons, but due to now cover works, and new S table, HWC are way better, and in combat you can melt units with your 12 S8 attacks
I have so far played a tournament where I came 4th with him and another 4'games where he has performed great.
Yes he is not the OP he used to be, but he is still great with wraith cannons. People keep on going for suncsnnons, but due to now cover works, and new S table, HWC are way better, and in combat you can melt units with your 12 S8 attacks
I've had the opposite experience. It's 526 points and shoots like 160 points of Wraithguard. Obviously it's doing it from farther away, but this is really not much more impressive than any number of ~200 point quad-lascannon platforms. It's paying 22 points per wound and lascannons don't see it as being any harder to hurt than a Rhino -- if you can kill two Razorbacks you don't need much more to kill a Wraithknight. Typical lascannon platforms expect to make back something like 3/4 of their points when shooting at it. The feet are nice, but it's probably not going to survive long enough to do a whole lot in combat, and its first turn in CC is likely going to be against a cheap screener. My standard Ynnari list has a good chance of dropping it on the first turn. My standard Sisters/Guard list doesn't care very much about its shooting and can easily handle it if it decides to get close. I've run up against WKs I think three times since 8th launched. Two of those were with Necrons, who have a notably hard time with anti-tank this edition. I've seen it get to CC once, and it's never been worth its points.
Imperial Knights are not only better in a straight comparison, they also function better in the context of Imperium armies. When you take an Imperial Knight in an army you're bringing it for counter-assault and somewhat-inefficient shooting on a platform that you can't just casually remove before charging in. Eldar don't need counter-assault. Practically everything in the army wants to be in your face and most of it moves really fast and flies. Outside of maybe Ravagers or Crimson Hunters they really have nothing resembling a durable long-range firebase, and those things aren't very worried about getting trapped by CC units.
It's true that the WK synergizes particularly well with a Farseer. The more tempting of a target you are the more you benefit from Fortune, and the more guns you have the more you benefit from Guide. Of course, you can't do both of these with a regular Farseer without forgoing Doom, which is the best power. Guide ends up working just about as well on a Crimson Hunter, though, and of course it's better on a unit of Fire Dragons or Wraithguard once they're in range. Fortune is definitely nice, and it's the main reason why I think WKs are still playable. But only in about the same way that Warp Spiders and Striking Scorpions and War Walkers and Vypers are playable.
I think this is close, but it looks almost like you wanted to balance the numbers in your middle 3 options there? No need to grade on a curve, let's go ahead and give out the failing grades as needed lol. I'd move half your "high" into "mid", half your "mid" into "low", and then re-name "low" into "situational."
Situational units could be taken if you know exactly what army you're facing, or if you build your army to really take advantage of certain things (I've been playing around with stacking T7+ armies and the WK does pretty good with that).
Oh yeah, then I would drop Vaul Support batteries and falcons into "bottom." Because support batteries are awful for the points, and falcon is 100% worse than wave serpent but costs more points.
So my personal list right now:
Top: Wave Serpents, Hemlocks,
High: Eldrad, Farseers, Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, Wraithblades, Dark Reapers
Mid: Autarch, Warlock, Guardian Defenders, Windriders, Night Spinner, Crimson Hunter,
Low/Situational: Illic Nightspear, Storm Guardians, Striking Scorpions, Howling Banshees, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, Wraithknight, Avatar of Khaine, Spiritseer, Phoenix Lords, Rangers, Shining Spears, Vypers, War Walkers, Wraithlord
Bottom/Never: Yriel, Dire Avengers, Fire Prism, Vaul Support Battery, Falcon
I wasn't really thinking of any curve when I put that tier list together. Just went through the units in the codex one by one, and just threw them in where I felt they should it. They just came out like that I guess.
One thing I guess would be that I am looking at how each of the units compare to other units in the Eldar codex (internally) while you're probably looking at how they compare with other armies.
For good measure, perhaps we can throw one together for Ynnari, and Forgeworld units as well. I'm looking at something like the following, although admittedly I am not familiar with some of the FW units.
Top: SCORPION (it's good butnthe recent faq did nerf it), SHADOW SPECTRES (they just look so good better than most of our other aspect warriors minus reapers)
High: PHEONIX (16 wounds! And decent firepower), VAMPIRE HUNTER (pulsars are so juicy and this platform is hard as he'll to kill only downside it's half your army)
Mid: HORNET ( pricey but the pulsars are now better than starcannons) NIGHTWING (most mobile unit and the 5++ is quite nice it's also very cheap) IRILYTH (pretty tame overall better than most pheonix lords and the aspect he buffs is a really good one but otherwise he's not that strong) WASP ASSAULT WALKERS (better but more expensive war walkers if you have the extra points upgrade them to this badboy)
Low: REVENANT (no save if you don't have first turn just say bye) PHANTOM (same issue as the little guy expect it to be dead), WRAITHSEER (okay buffs high cost and can be picked off due to high wound count) CORSAIR CLOUD DANCER (costs a lot more than Windriders and honestly doesn't add much for a 1.3× price increase) LYNX (don't take the pulsar it's awful but the sonic doom gun is not bad though quite pricey) SKATACH WRAITHKNIGHT (better than a normal night but more costly it cam bring a decent amount of pain but for 700 you ask yourself why didn't I bring a real big toy and not a jump knight), CORSAIR REAVER BAND (with no army synergy you might as well just take wave serpent guardians they aren't free either), CORSAIR SKYREAVER BAND (less useful swooping hawks at least they are troops I guess but where is the special rule synergy)
Garbage: WARP HUNTER (like a fire prism it just costs to much), VAMPIRE RAIDER (lol wut 50 points less to swap the pulsars for transport 3 wave serpents is less than 50% the cost more survivable and equivalent fire power) COBRA (this is some garbage tier here way worse than a scorpion vs literally everything)
I think I got all the gw stuff for the ynnari
Yvraine is a high or even top choice so cheap so good just for word of the pheonix
Yncarne is a mid tier or high his use is situational cause of wonky deployment
Visarch absolute garbage spend your points on anything else instead
Beats me. On 1500 pts it's really hard to take down and he can take down 2 enemy units a turn. Mine brought it's points back so far but I had to shoot and charge every turn. Too bad Starcannons got nerfed, but I'm still thinking running it with either 2 WC + 2 StC or Suncannon & 2 StC, simply for the lack of other options with good AP. The later option is overpriced as hell but there's no reason running sword to get invul since leg attacks are usually better and without guns it's not really possible to make points back (unless you manage to charge super heavy or somethin).
Scorpion was never nerfed... people just refused to accept the OBVIOUS copy/paste error as fact. Scorpion is still absolutely nasty and will kill most everything it targets in one round.
Wyldcarde wrote: Ok got ya. The fact that it is 3 damage instead of d6?
But yeah. Super nasty still.
Yeah sorry I can't link the FAQ at the moment. Essentially the pulsar does 3D.
The txt used to read... on a wound roll of 6+ inflict 2d6D instead of d6D. (which doesn't make anysense... until you see its the exact same text that was on the cobra's weapon...)
The txt now reads.. on a wound roll of 6+ inflict 6D instead of 3D. (which is arguably better... it doesn't have the max damage output.. but a static amount of damage is reliable.. and you are getting 4d6 shots of it.. )
Yeah exactly. I almost prefer it like that as most things will die just fine from the set damage. At least that way it mitigates the "roll all 1s" chance.
Wyldcarde wrote: Ok got ya. The fact that it is 3 damage instead of d6?
But yeah. Super nasty still.
Yeah sorry I can't link the FAQ at the moment. Essentially the pulsar does 3D.
The txt used to read... on a wound roll of 6+ inflict 2d6D instead of d6D. (which doesn't make anysense... until you see its the exact same text that was on the cobra's weapon...)
The txt now reads.. on a wound roll of 6+ inflict 6D instead of 3D. (which is arguably better... it doesn't have the max damage output.. but a static amount of damage is reliable.. and you are getting 4d6 shots of it.. )
Wait. GWREDUCED the amount of random in something? Wat.
pm713 wrote: How do people think an Ulthwe army would do nowadays? I was thinking guardians, Warlocks, Farseers and War Walkers.
Guardians are what they have always been. The new edition has made them slightly tougher as they now get a 5+ save against bolters and even a 6+ against heavy bolters and assault cannons. Their main strength though is that they fulfil the Troop tax and unlock Wave Serpents. Warlocks squad leaders are slightly more useful now that you can choose their powers (which they can usually cast rather than just taking them as batteries for your Farseers).
So if playing Ulthwe, I would definitley play it with a mechanised flavour. Guardians in Wave Serpents with a couple of Jetseers behind them to Doom targets. Keep your Guardians in their transports until the right moment to disembark 2 or 3 squads and all hose the same Doomed target. War Walkers can provide some decent supporting fire. Dark Reapers are fluffy based on the old EoT strike force list and very effective, particularly against aircraft.
Hemlocks are piloted by Psykers so would be fluffy for Ulthwe too and are one of the best aircraft in the game.
I think me and Spiders are cursed. Managed to keep them safe with Hemlock today (great combo), but they got charged by enemy transport and basically only Exarch with Spinneret rifle put one wound on overwatch. Battle was won without them.
FFS give them shooting after fallback.
Liked Spinneret rifle though. For +4 coins it is a good upgrade I think, especially for MSU squads. Also almost kept Shining spears alive for first turn - basically died to 22 Tau seeker missiles that put mortal wounds, which I had no defence against even with Hemlock + Fortune + Leadership buff (6 of 8 died and 2 died during morale phase).
Still won though due to great rolls on lances and Hemlock erasing/crippling unit a turn. What a broken plane, expecting more wounds against most things even when compared to "specialist" aspect Crimson Hunter.
Guardians are what they have always been. The new edition has made them slightly tougher as they now get a 5+ save against bolters and even a 6+ against heavy bolters and assault cannons. Their main strength though is that they fulfil the Troop tax and unlock Wave Serpents. Warlocks squad leaders are slightly more useful now that you can choose their powers (which they can usually cast rather than just taking them as batteries for your Farseers).
I keep seeing this crop up so I want to point it out... you don't need guardians (or any other infantry) to unlock Wave Serpents. Every detachment slot you fill unlocks a Dedicated Transport slot... If you go with a spearhead detachment and take a Wraithlord, a Night Spinner, a War Walker, and a Skyrunner Autarch for HQ, you can take four Wave Serpents.
Guardians are what they have always been. The new edition has made them slightly tougher as they now get a 5+ save against bolters and even a 6+ against heavy bolters and assault cannons. Their main strength though is that they fulfil the Troop tax and unlock Wave Serpents. Warlocks squad leaders are slightly more useful now that you can choose their powers (which they can usually cast rather than just taking them as batteries for your Farseers).
I keep seeing this crop up so I want to point it out... you don't need guardians (or any other infantry) to unlock Wave Serpents. Every detachment slot you fill unlocks a Dedicated Transport slot... If you go with a spearhead detachment and take a Wraithlord, a Night Spinner, a War Walker, and a Skyrunner Autarch for HQ, you can take four Wave Serpents.
The benefits of 8e: Finding a TFG is now WAAAAAAAAAAAY easier
Guardians are what they have always been. The new edition has made them slightly tougher as they now get a 5+ save against bolters and even a 6+ against heavy bolters and assault cannons. Their main strength though is that they fulfil the Troop tax and unlock Wave Serpents. Warlocks squad leaders are slightly more useful now that you can choose their powers (which they can usually cast rather than just taking them as batteries for your Farseers).
I keep seeing this crop up so I want to point it out... you don't need guardians (or any other infantry) to unlock Wave Serpents. Every detachment slot you fill unlocks a Dedicated Transport slot... If you go with a spearhead detachment and take a Wraithlord, a Night Spinner, a War Walker, and a Skyrunner Autarch for HQ, you can take four Wave Serpents.
The benefits of 8e: Finding a TFG is now WAAAAAAAAAAAY easier
Deathypoo wrote: I keep seeing this crop up so I want to point it out... you don't need guardians (or any other infantry) to unlock Wave Serpents. Every detachment slot you fill unlocks a Dedicated Transport slot... If you go with a spearhead detachment and take a Wraithlord, a Night Spinner, a War Walker, and a Skyrunner Autarch for HQ, you can take four Wave Serpents.
Sure, you don't need the Guardians but having 3 Troops unlocks the extra CPs from the Battalion detachment which is no bad thing. For 80 points you get 10 guys with machine pistols to go inside the Serpent. Serpents have respectable firepower but mass infantry control is not their strong point. Having a bunch of Guardians who can hop out at a moment's notice and hose 20 shuriken shots at nearby infantry and then sit on an objective is not a bad use of the points.
The Serpent keeps the Guardians safe until their firepower can be used at a good moment (ideally finishing off a damaged target) so that the Guardians do not have to face too much retaliation.
Guardians are what they have always been. The new edition has made them slightly tougher as they now get a 5+ save against bolters and even a 6+ against heavy bolters and assault cannons. Their main strength though is that they fulfil the Troop tax and unlock Wave Serpents. Warlocks squad leaders are slightly more useful now that you can choose their powers (which they can usually cast rather than just taking them as batteries for your Farseers).
I keep seeing this crop up so I want to point it out... you don't need guardians (or any other infantry) to unlock Wave Serpents. Every detachment slot you fill unlocks a Dedicated Transport slot... If you go with a spearhead detachment and take a Wraithlord, a Night Spinner, a War Walker, and a Skyrunner Autarch for HQ, you can take four Wave Serpents.
The benefits of 8e: Finding a TFG is now WAAAAAAAAAAAY easier
Following rules is TFG?
Abusing rules specifically to waac is tfg. It's just more blatant from the start of the game than usual. Using that force org for not cheesing it up is fine.
I feel I'm missing something here, but I can't see why everyone is raving about Guardians and Wave Serpents...
So I see that Wave Serpents are good, don't get me wrong. They're a solid, mobile transport with decent firepower... but they always have been. I don't see anything special here that sets them apart. Sure, the ability to deal mortal wounds with the shield is good, but it's a one-shot deal that makes you lose the benefit of the shield. Good, but a far cry from the Serpents of the 6th edition codex. Now, I've only just got back from abroad and had a look at all the 8th edition stuff, so I'm not very familiar with how the new system works... Does the Wave Serpent have an unusually high number of wounds for the points cost or something?
As for Guardians, they literally haven't changed. A 12" Assault 2 Bladestorm weapon for 8 points. Again, it's good and, yes, you can, as people have been saying, combine it with Doom/Guide to really bring the pain, but that's nothing new either. I've literally been doing that since 4th edition when I was a kid. Are people just combining this with the Ynnari thing to get an extra turn of shooting? Because if so, that's a different kettle of fish entirely, in my opinion. It just seems to me that the trusty shuriken catapault is as good as it's ever been, but with Dire Avengers suffering a hefty price hike, and other popular options like Windriders and Spiders being (rightly so) nerfed slightly, people are just turning back to the guardians? Am I wrong?
Like I say, I feel I'm missing something here. I have literally just got the Index today, after all, and only read the core rules 3 days ago... Anyone care to enlighten me?
Everything in 'dex became more expensive, but guardians not, and serpents, concidering their increased durability and twin heavy weapon, also stayed cheap. The new Twin rule made serpent and similar transports like razorback all the more appealing.
Does the Wave Serpent have an unusually high number of wounds for the points cost or something?
Yeah. For example, take vypers or warwalkers. For 264 pts you can have 3 Vypers with 6 Shuriken cannons. Or for 286 pts you can have 2 serpents with equal amount of shuriken cannons, but you gain 8 more wounds, better toughness, better defensive rule and option to protect your troops. For 477 points you can get 6 bright lance shots. For 300 points you can take 6 bright lance shots for war walkers, but you also get 3 shuriken cannons (which is another 1.5 walkers) and 21 more wounds.
It is generally close all around, as guns have same price across the board, it turns out that taking Serpent with twin bright lance and shuriken cannon is a better choice of main battle tank than any other tank.
So I see that Wave Serpents are good, don't get me wrong. They're a solid, mobile transport with decent firepower... but they always have been. I don't see anything special here that sets them apart.
Does the Wave Serpent have an unusually high number of wounds for the points cost or something?
Wave Serpents have 13 wounds and the SS reduces multi-Damage hits by 1 Damage. So they're one of the most durable things in the codex. They are also one of the killiest due to having batter AT firepower than the Fire Prism, better AI firepower than the Night Spinner, and better general firepower than the Falcon. While being fast and being the only transport in the army besides the Falcon (which has a tc of 5).
Basically, whatever an Aeldari unit can do, the WS can do better.
Except for the Hemlock, with its heavy D-Scythes and general flier-y-ness.
And Guardians are the cheapest way to unlock WS. And are also the best Troops selection in the army, due to DA's being severely overcosted.
WS are not all that powerful in the grand scheme of things, but if it's the best Aeldari unit for darn near everything it will be declared OP and will be spammed.
Ah ok that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I haven't played any games yet and only own the two Xenos Indicies so don't have a lot to compare to. I guess comparing to similar Eldar skimmer units the WS is a hell of a lot more durable.
And for the rest it sounds much the same as I'd suspected, other things suffering from price hikes. Not a case of them being so good, just of everything else having gotten worse I can see where the spam might come from
So, if several units of guardians in Serpents are the backbone of a good list, what are people fleshing it out with. Eldrad and Autarchs look good to me for the HQ slot and, as others have mentioned, Shadow Spectres and the two flyers are all solid units.
Wave Serpents are excellent relative to most other Eldar units. They're not really out of line with many things that other factions have, though.
Razorbacks shoot just as well (better if stationary) and are about as durable per point, but cost a lot less.
Vultures are generally more durable, are much faster, and shoot significantly better, but give up transport capacity (and it seems like lots of people are talking as if bringing Serpents with nothing inside them is a great idea).
Repressors cost the same as Razorbacks and are significantly more durable, and have 6 firing ports so end up shooting better than Serpents if there are Sisters inside.
Ghost Arks are a little more expensive and have their own special defensive rule that makes them incredible against lascannons and terrible against plasma (Serpents are the opposite). Ghost Arks shoot a little worse from 24" and a lot better from 12". Ghost Arks also bring back more Warriors.
Devilfish aren't great, but even here they're still T7 W12 with 12 S5 shots, and only cost a little more than Razorbacks if you don't count the gun drones that can disembark (generally when the Devilfish dies).
I don't know Chaos or Orks well enough and Tyranids don't really have a fast, shooty anti-infantry tank. But just in general basic transports are really strong in 8th.
Guardians are what they have always been. The new edition has made them slightly tougher as they now get a 5+ save against bolters and even a 6+ against heavy bolters and assault cannons. Their main strength though is that they fulfil the Troop tax and unlock Wave Serpents. Warlocks squad leaders are slightly more useful now that you can choose their powers (which they can usually cast rather than just taking them as batteries for your Farseers).
I keep seeing this crop up so I want to point it out... you don't need guardians (or any other infantry) to unlock Wave Serpents. Every detachment slot you fill unlocks a Dedicated Transport slot... If you go with a spearhead detachment and take a Wraithlord, a Night Spinner, a War Walker, and a Skyrunner Autarch for HQ, you can take four Wave Serpents.
The benefits of 8e: Finding a TFG is now WAAAAAAAAAAAY easier
Following rules is TFG?
Abusing rules specifically to waac is tfg. It's just more blatant from the start of the game than usual. Using that force org for not cheesing it up is fine.
I know there are as many definitions of "TFG" as their are people, but if *this* qualifies as "TFG" for you... I mean... I guess that makes you "TFG" to me lol
Shadenuat wrote: I think me and Spiders are cursed. Managed to keep them safe with Hemlock today (great combo), but they got charged by enemy transport and basically only Exarch with Spinneret rifle put one wound on overwatch. Battle was won without them.
FFS give them shooting after fallback.
Liked Spinneret rifle though. For +4 coins it is a good upgrade I think, especially for MSU squads. Also almost kept Shining spears alive for first turn - basically died to 22 Tau seeker missiles that put mortal wounds, which I had no defence against even with Hemlock + Fortune + Leadership buff (6 of 8 died and 2 died during morale phase).
Still won though due to great rolls on lances and Hemlock erasing/crippling unit a turn. What a broken plane, expecting more wounds against most things even when compared to "specialist" aspect Crimson Hunter.
The warp spiders using their jump generator can shoot after falling back as they gain fly.
Also, fortune gives you a save against mortal wounds. As it is similar to disgustingly resilient which was faqed to work against mortal wounds along with "all similar abilities". So you should have at least got the 5+ against mortal wounds.
Unfortunately shining spears are a huge threat so are likely to get shot a lot. I'd say a unit of 8 is too much for that very reason where they will lose 5 or 6 guys and the rest to morale.
They only gain Fly until end of the movement phase - which is FAQ material.
Fortune wasn't FAQed. It's tyranid rule which was FAQed, and then some people from BoLS theorised that Fortune should work same - but GW didn't change Fortune.
Unfortunately shining spears are a huge threat so are likely to get shot a lot. I'd say a unit of 8 is too much for that very reason where they will lose 5 or 6 guys and the rest to morale.
TBH if not for mortal wounds I think more than half of the squad could have survived that game.
If I had 2 units of 4 or 5 I would have lost my first turn to enemy during deploy - meaning no psychic protection from Hemlock or Farseer for anything, etc.
Devilfish aren't great
They are pretty bad. With drones and seeker missiles they cost 6 points less than Wave Serpent with 3 shuriken cannons, and have worse BS. Since Tau can for the most part only focus fire things when good amount of markerlights are in or during Kauyon (when whole army gets glued to one place), they are stuck with it for most of the game. And drones nowadays count as separate unit for all intent, like KP and proccing SfD.
Looking at the wave serpent in my games.....you will find that only a couple wounds come off from small arms fire.
So in actual game play it takes about 4 or 5 shots to kill it. With the reducing rule that equates to about 4 or 5 extra wounds. So it is equal to a land raider to kill but the cost is so much less.
I used guardians once and they managed to kill 2 marines even with a shuriken canon upgrade. I hope others are rolling stellar cause they severely underperformed and were about useless against a unit of Templars. The War Walker was better at tying up that unit in cc.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a side note the howling banshees have been sweet vs cc units.
Tyranids especially. If the enemy wants to get in hth, then they wont fall back.
So if you charge first and do your damage, then next turn they charge in, Sure they get 1 fight phase in, then you go, then they go, then the autarch goes, and so on. I found them very good to take down a Tyranid Hive Guard. Sure they all died. But the lone Tyrant then fell to Fire Dragons very easily.
Everyone was amazed how in one turn the fire dragons, smite, and wave serpents cleaned house. No more HQ and the swarms fled to morale phase. I love Banshees.
I actually use 5 banshees as my Serpent tax and to build up cheap Vanguard. They cost same as 10 Guardians but are more fun to play. That's 4+2 wounds with 4+ saves against 10 5+.
They are pretty bad. With drones and seeker missiles they cost 6 points less than Wave Serpent with 3 shuriken cannons, and have worse BS. Since Tau can for the most part only focus fire things when good amount of markerlights are in or during Kauyon (when whole army gets glued to one place), they are stuck with it for most of the game. And drones nowadays count as separate unit for all intents, like KP and proccing SfD.
I didn't think that people were taking the Seeker Missiles. Regardless, they're still expecting to land 6 S5 hits compared to the Serpent's 6 S6 hits. Now, the shuriken rule is really nice and, like I said, Devilfish are a step below all the others, but this at least seems to be in the same ballpark given that you recover the gun drones when the Devilfish dies and gun drones are generally thought to be worth their points on their own. Like, it'd be really cool if Serpents automatically spat out 2 Guardians when they died. Kill Points are a problem but if you're playing rulebook kill points then Tau are just doomed regardless.
Guardians are what they have always been. The new edition has made them slightly tougher as they now get a 5+ save against bolters and even a 6+ against heavy bolters and assault cannons. Their main strength though is that they fulfil the Troop tax and unlock Wave Serpents. Warlocks squad leaders are slightly more useful now that you can choose their powers (which they can usually cast rather than just taking them as batteries for your Farseers).
I keep seeing this crop up so I want to point it out... you don't need guardians (or any other infantry) to unlock Wave Serpents. Every detachment slot you fill unlocks a Dedicated Transport slot... If you go with a spearhead detachment and take a Wraithlord, a Night Spinner, a War Walker, and a Skyrunner Autarch for HQ, you can take four Wave Serpents.
The benefits of 8e: Finding a TFG is now WAAAAAAAAAAAY easier
Following rules is TFG?
Abusing rules specifically to waac is tfg. It's just more blatant from the start of the game than usual. Using that force org for not cheesing it up is fine.
I know there are as many definitions of "TFG" as their are people, but if *this* qualifies as "TFG" for you... I mean... I guess that makes you "TFG" to me lol
So a person takes a look at their army, identifies the most cheesy unit, finds the most points efficient way to spam it, and then smooshes everyone else with impunity. They aren't tfg, the people who think that's a bit much are themselves tfg. Congratulations, you have decided that the most common form of tfg is not a tfg, his opponents are.
Shadenuat wrote: I actually use 5 banshees as my Serpent tax and to build up cheap Vanguard. They cost same as 10 Guardians but are more fun to play. That's 4+2 wounds with 4+ saves against 10 5+.
It's worth noting that guardians can tank hits on the weapon platform. It has a 3+ save, 2+ in cover. The only downside being if you lose one wound it takes the rest of the wounds from then on.
But still only has to save 3 guardians that would have otherwise died to make its points back.
So you find Striking Scorpions overcosted at 19 points?
You get 3 attacks, 2 wounds, T 4 deepstriking Reivers with cool no Overwatch grenades for 20 points.
They are better at everything except having Mandiblasters :(
Wave Serpents are the best. Have won quite a few games with Serpents lead by a Swooping Hawk Wing wearing Autarch.
They are like a Swiss Army Knife in this edition. Weapon platforms for every choice, and also offering a few Mortal Wounds to destroy that which threaten your force multipliers.
So new FAQ nerfed razorwing flocks. 14 ppm and 3-12 unit size.
Makes sense as something had to change tho I feel at 14 points they aren't worth taking.
Yes that seems to put them in the ground. You might take singleton units at 14 points, but now you can't take singletons. And you don't want big units at 14 points since now you're paying more points for your wounds than Conscripts do, with the disadvantages of being multi-wound models, T2, and no armor save. Presumably the point here is just to get rid of them while still technically allowing people to bring their models.
Wyldcarde wrote: So new FAQ nerfed razorwing flocks. 14 ppm and 3-12 unit size.
Makes sense as something had to change tho I feel at 14 points they aren't worth taking.
Holy moly that's a heavy nerf! Double the points cost, triple the base unit size!
They needed nerfing, but this is a bit much. Does not bode well for how GW will proceed with "balancing". Looks like they're listening to internet hyperbole and have begun dishing out revenge nerfs.
Also note that you can only use Ynnari now by having one of the Ynnari HQs as Warlord. Not a huge deal, since Yvraine fits pretty well into most lists.
Considering that there are a lot of other point cost issues in the Indexes I think the reason for the Razorwing Flock cost change is the sole fact that another manufacturer was earning a lot of dough in providing Razorwing Flock alternatives.
By making the unit overpriced they cut out any sales for third party manufacturers(Zombicide producers in this case) plus they don't have to worry about casting a lot of Flocks in resin.
Eldarsif wrote: Considering that there are a lot of other point cost issues in the Indexes I think the reason for the Razorwing Flock cost change is the sole fact that another manufacturer was earning a lot of dough in providing Razorwing Flock alternatives.
By making the unit overpriced they cut out any sales for third party manufacturers(Zombicide producers in this case) plus they don't have to worry about casting a lot of Flocks in resin.
Eldarsif wrote: Considering that there are a lot of other point cost issues in the Indexes I think the reason for the Razorwing Flock cost change is the sole fact that another manufacturer was earning a lot of dough in providing Razorwing Flock alternatives.
By making the unit overpriced they cut out any sales for third party manufacturers(Zombicide producers in this case) plus they don't have to worry about casting a lot of Flocks in resin.
New GW = (Old GW + Sneaky)
New GW has just become much more business savvy.
To be honest I am glad they nerfed the Razorwing Flock(although they could have been a bit more modest). A bit tiring to see(or use) razorwing flocks on the battlefield. Doesn't help that before the FAQ you could use Razorwing Flocks as a cheap tax to get more Wave Serpents.
The 4++ save for the Visarch goes a long way towards making him fieldable. He is only lacking an aura now.
I think I will keep using him as an Autarch for now, though.
Guardians are what they have always been. The new edition has made them slightly tougher as they now get a 5+ save against bolters and even a 6+ against heavy bolters and assault cannons. Their main strength though is that they fulfil the Troop tax and unlock Wave Serpents. Warlocks squad leaders are slightly more useful now that you can choose their powers (which they can usually cast rather than just taking them as batteries for your Farseers).
I keep seeing this crop up so I want to point it out... you don't need guardians (or any other infantry) to unlock Wave Serpents. Every detachment slot you fill unlocks a Dedicated Transport slot... If you go with a spearhead detachment and take a Wraithlord, a Night Spinner, a War Walker, and a Skyrunner Autarch for HQ, you can take four Wave Serpents.
The benefits of 8e: Finding a TFG is now WAAAAAAAAAAAY easier
Following rules is TFG?
Abusing rules specifically to waac is tfg. It's just more blatant from the start of the game than usual. Using that force org for not cheesing it up is fine.
I know there are as many definitions of "TFG" as their are people, but if *this* qualifies as "TFG" for you... I mean... I guess that makes you "TFG" to me lol
So a person takes a look at their army, identifies the most cheesy unit, finds the most points efficient way to spam it, and then smooshes everyone else with impunity. They aren't tfg, the people who think that's a bit much are themselves tfg. Congratulations, you have decided that the most common form of tfg is not a tfg, his opponents are.
So many things wrong with this statement...
1) Wave Serpents aren't "cheesy" they're just easily the best unit overall in our Codex.
2) In the example I gave the Wave Serpent is being "spammed" LESS efficiently because the units being used to unlock it are more expensive than the normal guardians.
3) Eldar Wave Serpents aren't smooshing anyone with impunity.
4) I'm not saying my opponents are TFG (???) I'm saying someone who complains about an army composition they arbitrarily dislike is TFG.
So I know this is general eldar but gw has just kicked the last breath out of my corsairs. I play what I would say is a very thematic air wing corsair army, using a vampire, Phoenix, 2 nightwing, jetbikes and a farseer (prince). But because storm ravens are to strong I auto lose the game if my opponent can do 18 wounds to t4 4+??? What the actual hell, I was really enjoying my army but I guess I'll just sell it because it's an auto lose to a single heavy bolter squad.
I just don't see how this nerf was called for like sure I get it the 5 Stormraven list is way to strong and hemlock are to strong but the other fliers really aren't bad now I just don't have an army.
Dionysodorus wrote: Also note that you can only use Ynnari now by having one of the Ynnari HQs as Warlord. Not a huge deal, since Yvraine fits pretty well into most lists.
I'm actually struggling to think of any use for Ynnari characters in my army. I don't need them for either dragons or banshees. Jetbikes and any fast attack choices work better with jet farseer. Mech, serpents in particular, and everything in them benefits from autarch a lot. List made of tanks and flyers doesn't need SFD. But I like me some SFD on MSU troops and aspect warriors. Don't own any Wraithguard.
The only combo which is pretty much a given is Yvraine + Warlock + Dark Reapers.
But if I don't have anything on the level of 10 reapers squad or Wraithguard with D-Scythes, what's to use her for?
Yvraine does bring a cut-rate Guide, at least, and I would have thought you could land WotP on the Jetbikes from 18" away pretty easily.
I've been using the Yncarne so I'm not affected by this, though I'm not sure he's actually optimal. My only SfD units are him and Guardians, but I'm finding that WotP is really good even on Guardians. Maybe you don't need it for Fire Dragons because they're killing something every turn anyway, but if they're not consistently Soulbursting it's probably worth it.
The Shadow wrote: So, if several units of guardians in Serpents are the backbone of a good list, what are people fleshing it out with. Eldrad and Autarchs look good to me for the HQ slot and, as others have mentioned, Shadow Spectres and the two flyers are all solid units.
Rangers are OK as a Troop choice. I think they are slightly overcosted compared to SM Scouts but their deployment rules are handy and the ability to snipe characters and generate the odd Mortal Wound are useful. I don't think Sniper-heavy armies are going to be a thing in 8th but having one unit for any army that can take them is generally a good idea.
Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers are probably the best Aspect Warriors and provide a healthy dose of fire power. Banshees are better than they have been since 4th/5th given that they can finally assault out of their transport but S3 is still a hindrance. If you want to run them, make sure you have a Farseer to Doom their target or far too many hits will just bounce off.
Wraithguard and Wraithblades are both excellent. Although their toughness has been reduced slightly, the fact that they have 3 wounds each makes them very durable. I think I favour the D-scythe variants best. They are almost as good as Wraithcannons against large targets and far better against infantry. They can advance, fire (thanks to the D-scythes being Assault) and still auto-hit. If the enemy charge, they will face S10 auto-hitting overwatch. If they are in combat, they can simply walk out and fire freely thanks to their "Implacable" rule.
Wraithlords are priced competitively with Dreadnoughts. Either run them cheaply with a Glaive and flamers and just charge them towards the enemy as a distraction or tool them up with 2 heavy weaposn and use them to babysit a shooty unit like Reapers. Your enemy will think twice about Deep Striking close to that.
Guardians are what they have always been. The new edition has made them slightly tougher as they now get a 5+ save against bolters and even a 6+ against heavy bolters and assault cannons. Their main strength though is that they fulfil the Troop tax and unlock Wave Serpents. Warlocks squad leaders are slightly more useful now that you can choose their powers (which they can usually cast rather than just taking them as batteries for your Farseers).
I keep seeing this crop up so I want to point it out... you don't need guardians (or any other infantry) to unlock Wave Serpents. Every detachment slot you fill unlocks a Dedicated Transport slot... If you go with a spearhead detachment and take a Wraithlord, a Night Spinner, a War Walker, and a Skyrunner Autarch for HQ, you can take four Wave Serpents.
The benefits of 8e: Finding a TFG is now WAAAAAAAAAAAY easier
Following rules is TFG?
Abusing rules specifically to waac is tfg. It's just more blatant from the start of the game than usual. Using that force org for not cheesing it up is fine.
I know there are as many definitions of "TFG" as their are people, but if *this* qualifies as "TFG" for you... I mean... I guess that makes you "TFG" to me lol
So a person takes a look at their army, identifies the most cheesy unit, finds the most points efficient way to spam it, and then smooshes everyone else with impunity. They aren't tfg, the people who think that's a bit much are themselves tfg. Congratulations, you have decided that the most common form of tfg is not a tfg, his opponents are.
So many things wrong with this statement...
1) Wave Serpents aren't "cheesy" they're just easily the best unit overall in our Codex.
2) In the example I gave the Wave Serpent is being "spammed" LESS efficiently because the units being used to unlock it are more expensive than the normal guardians.
3) Eldar Wave Serpents aren't smooshing anyone with impunity.
4) I'm not saying my opponents are TFG (???) I'm saying someone who complains about an army composition they arbitrarily dislike is TFG.
Oh dear lord. I guess some people really can't see intent in anything they read. I was not trying to say that Wave Serpents are OP. I'm an Eldar player, I would be calling myself TFG by saying that. I was referring to the fact that the most points efficient lists are so stupid looking and so blatantly make use of nonsensical or imbalanced rules that it is now more obvious than ever that someone is trying to powergame. Look at recent tournament lists. They make no damn sense. Half of them don't even have models touching the ground.
Parachuting scouts with jump pack Captain leading flyers don't seem that weird in world of 40K. Neither do Harlequins, Ultramarines with transpots or Guardians in Serpents, really.
Previous edition with daemontaueldarinvisibleriptidewing was worse by far.
What else then? Invasion of extradimensional flaming heads? At least this edition they would be lead by Magnus or Daemon Princes, instead of Eldrad Ulthran supported by Riptide.
Selym wrote: Oh dear lord. I guess some people really can't see intent in anything they read. I was not trying to say that Wave Serpents are OP. I'm an Eldar player, I would be calling myself TFG by saying that. I was referring to the fact that the most points efficient lists are so stupid looking and so blatantly make use of nonsensical or imbalanced rules that it is now more obvious than ever that someone is trying to powergame. Look at recent tournament lists. They make no damn sense. Half of them don't even have models touching the ground.
I honestly think you (and anyone who thinks this is being TFG) should take a more objective view of things. Anyone coming into the game fresh with 8th edition won't have any of these preconceived ideas about how armies "should be," or what armies "make sense."
He is right. It states so right in the rules, and he is just explaining how the rules work.
Playing the game how it should be played, not how you imagine it to be played is not being a TFG.
Selym wrote: Oh dear lord. I guess some people really can't see intent in anything they read. I was not trying to say that Wave Serpents are OP. I'm an Eldar player, I would be calling myself TFG by saying that. I was referring to the fact that the most points efficient lists are so stupid looking and so blatantly make use of nonsensical or imbalanced rules that it is now more obvious than ever that someone is trying to powergame. Look at recent tournament lists. They make no damn sense. Half of them don't even have models touching the ground.
I honestly think you (and anyone who thinks this is being TFG) should take a more objective view of things. Anyone coming into the game fresh with 8th edition won't have any of these preconceived ideas about how armies "should be," or what armies "make sense."
He is right. It states so right in the rules, and he is just explaining how the rules work.
Playing the game how it should be played, not how you imagine it to be played is not being a TFG.
Naivety was the last thing I expected to see on Dakka!
Selym wrote: Oh dear lord. I guess some people really can't see intent in anything they read. I was not trying to say that Wave Serpents are OP. I'm an Eldar player, I would be calling myself TFG by saying that. I was referring to the fact that the most points efficient lists are so stupid looking and so blatantly make use of nonsensical or imbalanced rules that it is now more obvious than ever that someone is trying to powergame. Look at recent tournament lists. They make no damn sense. Half of them don't even have models touching the ground.
I honestly think you (and anyone who thinks this is being TFG) should take a more objective view of things. Anyone coming into the game fresh with 8th edition won't have any of these preconceived ideas about how armies "should be," or what armies "make sense."
He is right. It states so right in the rules, and he is just explaining how the rules work.
Playing the game how it should be played, not how you imagine it to be played is not being a TFG.
Naivety was the last thing I expected to see on Dakka!
sure.
That said with the nerfs to flyers, as well as access to Ynnari limited, what are people looking at in terms of armies?
What do you all suspect a good balance of Hemlock - to - Ground Units for Eldar would be now?
I assume people will not focus the flyers as much anymore, so this perhaps reduces the necessity to stack them.
My standard list still works. I don't see that the nerf to flyers is a huge hit to us. I don't think people were really doing Hemlock spam -- they would have 3, maybe 4, right? And it's not feasible to try to table the Eldar player on the ground while ignoring the Hemlocks because their damage output is ridiculous and Wave Serpents are very durable. You've got to do something about the Hemlocks or you'll run out of things to kill Serpents with. I think I'm still aiming for 3 Hemlocks and 3-5 Serpents depending on their contents and my other units.
The Razorwing Jetfighter nerf hurts a little, if you were using those instead for some reason. Definitely makes them less appealing next to the Crimson Hunter.
Dionysodorus wrote: Also note that you can only use Ynnari now by having one of the Ynnari HQs as Warlord. Not a huge deal, since Yvraine fits pretty well into most lists.
Where is this stated? I've looked over the erratas and can't see anything that says so explicitly.
Xenos 1 FAQ wrote:If your army is Battle-forged,
Ynnari units can only be included in Detachments
in which all units have the Ynnari keyword .
To me that doesn't imply anything different. A Farseer would get the Ynnari keyword and so can be the required HQ of the detachment, right?
No he mean this bit.
Page 76
– Army of the Reborn Replace this paragraph with the following:
If the Warlord of your army is either Yvraine, the Visarch or the Yncarne then – with the exception of
<Haemonculus Coven> units, Urien Rakarth, Drazhar, Mandrakes and the Avatar of Khaine – any Aeldari unit can also be Ynnari.
Any unit that is gains the Ynnari keyword. These cannot use any of the following abilities, and are not considered to have them: Ancient
Doom, Battle Focus, Rising Crescendo, Power from Pain.
Instead, Ynnari Infantry and Ynnari Biker units gain the Strength from Death ability, as described below.
If your army is Battle-forged, Ynnari units can only be included in Detachments in which all units have the Ynnari keyword
Dionysodorus wrote: Also note that you can only use Ynnari now by having one of the Ynnari HQs as Warlord. Not a huge deal, since Yvraine fits pretty well into most lists.
I'm actually struggling to think of any use for Ynnari characters in my army. I don't need them for either dragons or banshees. Jetbikes and any fast attack choices work better with jet farseer. Mech, serpents in particular, and everything in them benefits from autarch a lot. List made of tanks and flyers doesn't need SFD. But I like me some SFD on MSU troops and aspect warriors. Don't own any Wraithguard.
The only combo which is pretty much a given is Yvraine + Warlock + Dark Reapers.
But if I don't have anything on the level of 10 reapers squad or Wraithguard with D-Scythes, what's to use her for?
Yeah I've been wondering about this too.
I've written up a quick 1500 Ynnari list that makes use of Yvraine and 5 units of 2 Khymerae to act as Strength from Death ammo (as well as an easy CP with the Fast Attack detatchment) but I'm not really sure what are good targets for the extra "activation" from SfD. I've got two units of Guardians, the accompanying Wave Serpents, a Hemlock and a unit of Kabalites in a Venom as the only units that really put out any decent direct damage (and I suppose the Autarch in combat). Obviously I can add some more stuff taking the list up to 1850, but I'm wondering what. A unit of Fire Dragons/Wraithblades in a Serpent or a unit of Reapers sound like good options.
Karhedron wrote:
The Shadow wrote: So, if several units of guardians in Serpents are the backbone of a good list, what are people fleshing it out with. Eldrad and Autarchs look good to me for the HQ slot and, as others have mentioned, Shadow Spectres and the two flyers are all solid units.
Rangers are OK as a Troop choice. I think they are slightly overcosted compared to SM Scouts but their deployment rules are handy and the ability to snipe characters and generate the odd Mortal Wound are useful. I don't think Sniper-heavy armies are going to be a thing in 8th but having one unit for any army that can take them is generally a good idea.
Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers are probably the best Aspect Warriors and provide a healthy dose of fire power. Banshees are better than they have been since 4th/5th given that they can finally assault out of their transport but S3 is still a hindrance. If you want to run them, make sure you have a Farseer to Doom their target or far too many hits will just bounce off.
Wraithguard and Wraithblades are both excellent. Although their toughness has been reduced slightly, the fact that they have 3 wounds each makes them very durable. I think I favour the D-scythe variants best. They are almost as good as Wraithcannons against large targets and far better against infantry. They can advance, fire (thanks to the D-scythes being Assault) and still auto-hit. If the enemy charge, they will face S10 auto-hitting overwatch. If they are in combat, they can simply walk out and fire freely thanks to their "Implacable" rule.
Wraithlords are priced competitively with Dreadnoughts. Either run them cheaply with a Glaive and flamers and just charge them towards the enemy as a distraction or tool them up with 2 heavy weaposn and use them to babysit a shooty unit like Reapers. Your enemy will think twice about Deep Striking close to that.
Yeah at the moment, mainly because I only own 20-odd guardians, I'm using a unit of rangers as my 3rd Troops choice in a Batallion Detachment. I like their aesthetic and the way snipers work in 8th but I also find them to be a great unit to sit on an objective (any - thanks to the deployment rules) and, as you say, they can deal some damage every now and again.
Yeah D-scythe Wraithguard do have a lot going for them, but they're just so expensive. Will definitely be trying them out, but I'm not sure they'll become a staple. D3 hits is a far cry from the amount of hits they could get in 7th combined with a WWP and/or a DE Transport and I don't like how one turn you can be firing 5 shots for the unit, and the next 15. A bit too Loota-esque for me. Don't get me wrong, I love Lootas, but Wraithguard are too expensive for that.
I'll definitely be giving the Wraithlord a try too, partly because I've had the model, love it, and have hardly ever used it. Mine's modelled with a sword which is a shame, since I think the best option is to load up with two brightlances/shuricannons and go vehicle/infantry hunting. It's no slouch in combat, even without the sword. The only thing that puts me off is how its WS and BS depreciate as it loses wounds.
I'm glad the razorwing units got a price increase. Seems better atm. No word on Avenger Catapults yet:(
Anyway do you think taking a Shining Spear exarch or Dark Reaper exarch now in an Auxillary unit is worth the loss of a cp?
If you can hide or shield the Exarch, I think it could be a equitable tradeoff.
Automatically Appended Next Post: in case you missed this one from the FAQ:
OFFICIO ASSASSINORUM
Q: If a unit of Dark Reapers (which have the Inescapable
Accuracy ability) shoots at a Culexus Assassin (which has the
Etherium ability), what roll do the Dark Reapers require to
successfully hit the Assassin?
A: 3+.
This is because while the Dark Reapers treat their
Ballistic Skill as 6+ because of the Etherium ability,
they always score a hit on rolls of 3+ because of their
Inescapable Accuracy ability, which is irrespective of
their Ballistic Skill characteristic or any modifiers.
Yeah D-scythe Wraithguard do have a lot going for them, but they're just so expensive.
They're somewhat cheaper than full squad of Fire Dragons while featuring better toughness and more wounds. As for their D3, that's where Command Points and Word of Phoenix are your friends. And they can smack head or two in melee and shoot after fall back, so enemy can't lock them from shooting (not that it's a good idea to assault a squad with auto-hitting D-Scythes ofc).
I see a lot of fuss about these and am considering getting one. The damage output doesn't seem that impressive though. Auto hitting is always nice, but with an average of 4 hits it isn't a massive threat to infantry, and 2 damage per hit means it's not a tank killer either. Bikes and terminators would be more ideal but is a fairly niche group.
Is it mainly the durability and conceal bubble that get people excited? How are people finding it's damage output?
I see a lot of fuss about these and am considering getting one. The damage output doesn't seem that impressive though. Auto hitting is always nice, but with an average of 4 hits it isn't a massive threat to infantry, and 2 damage per hit means it's not a tank killer either. Bikes and terminators would be more ideal but is a fairly niche group.
Is it mainly the durability and conceal bubble that get people excited? How are people finding it's damage output?
The damage output from just its guns is only okay -- a little better than a Crimson Hunter against infantry and a little worse against tanks -- and of course it has the disadvantage of very short range.
What you're forgetting is that it can move so that its Smite hits whatever you want.
I see a lot of fuss about these and am considering getting one. The damage output doesn't seem that impressive though. Auto hitting is always nice, but with an average of 4 hits it isn't a massive threat to infantry, and 2 damage per hit means it's not a tank killer either. Bikes and terminators would be more ideal but is a fairly niche group.
Is it mainly the durability and conceal bubble that get people excited? How are people finding it's damage output?
It's super mobile and can also Smite-snipe enemy characters if they're not careful with the bubblewrap. If they're keeping their characters behind units or in positions on the side of a unit it is not hard to fly the Hemlock so that the character is the closest target. When they're closest they're also going to get hit by the flamers. Not something you can count on obviously but a possibility if your opponent doesn't expect it. Also dependant on terrain and how much space there is between units so YMMV.
What you're forgetting is that it can move so that its Smite hits whatever you want.
Smite does add to it's damage output but at the expense of conceal. All fliers can position to snipe characters of course but it requires an opponent to position badly.
I don't doubt it's worth it's points but I'm not quite seeing why its often rated as the best unit in the Craftworld index.
What you're forgetting is that it can move so that its Smite hits whatever you want.
Smite does add to it's damage output but at the expense of conceal. All fliers can position to snipe characters of course but it requires an opponent to position badly.
It's not just characters. It's anything that's paying a lot for its wounds. Not many armies can actually protect all of their vehicles this way.
I mean, just do the math. A Hemlock expects about 6.24 wounds on a Land Raider, 7.13 on a Dreadnought, and 7.13 on a Stormraven. It's still getting 5.36 wounds on something with a 5++.
Compare this to just shooting 4 BS3+ Lascannons at something. That's 4.15 wounds on a Land Raider, 5.19 on a Dreadnought, and 3.89 on a Stormraven. The Hemlock is significantly better against all of these targets when you include Smite.
I agree that it'd be a lot less useful if people brought lots more bubble wrap. And maybe things will head that way as we see more stuff like the Raven Guard stratagem. But as-is I don't think I've ever had a problem moving 2 or 3 Hemlocks to Smite stuff that I've been happy to Smite.
What you're forgetting is that it can move so that its Smite hits whatever you want.
Smite does add to it's damage output but at the expense of conceal. All fliers can position to snipe characters of course but it requires an opponent to position badly.
I don't doubt it's worth it's points but I'm not quite seeing why its often rated as the best unit in the Craftworld index.
It's one of the best units in the game - not just the craftworld codex. It's good right down to it's last wound too - everything auto hits on it. It has a 60 inch move and can turn twice - and it brings weapons that typically just pick up enemy models with no save. How can you not just love this unit?
OK you're all doing a pretty good job of selling it too me. You may laugh when I say for my current list it's a toss up between the Hemlock and a unit of 10 Warp spiders!
Hemlock seems better but it's a Ynnari list and Spiders are real fun with SfD.
It's stability. Crimson Hunter may or may not hit. For a specialist aspect that expects to counter enemy flyers it actually does not ignore their -1 to hit penalty. When crippled to a half, it will shoot enemy flyers with BS of 5+.
Hemlock doesn't care if his target has toughness of 6, 7 or 8. It doesn't care for 3+ save. It doesn't care if it has only 1 wound left. It will overwatch anything that can Fly and wants to charge it as well and eat it's face off.
You may laugh when I say for my current list it's a toss up between the Hemlock and a unit of 10 Warp spiders!
Hemlock synergies with Flickerjump and Spiders average move of ~20 perfectly.
I didn't think that on paper it looked that amazing, but start using 1 or 2 and all of the sudden you understand.
It is reliable firepower that's effectiveness doesn't decrease as the vehicle gets damaged. So a Hemlock with 1 wound left is as effective as full wounds. This is important. Also, I have had them perform beautifully.
I went first against a marine gunline and removed a predator and a dreadnought first turn, which hampered the army for the rest of the battle. Hell even though the marine players retort heavily damaged one hemlock and destroyed the other, my wounded hemlock continued to pound the marine vehicle for two turns as it auto hits.
Also, having a mobile Deny the Witch has been very useful. It is like the ultimate swiss army knife for hard to kill targets.
2x 5 Dire Avengers Wave Serpent, 3x Cannons, VE, SS
10 x Dire Avengers Wave Serpent, 3x Cannons, VE, SS
10x Fire Dragons Wave Serpent, 3x Cannons, VE, SS
5x Wraithguard, D-Scythes Wave Serpent, 3x Cannons, VE, SS
Hemlock Wraithfighter
So, it's 4 Serpents Rushing forward to drop off units in 7" for SfD to hopefully shoot twice. The Biketarch, Fire Dragons, Wraithguard and big avenger unit all make good use of SfD and the psychic buffs.
ToS skulls isn't a competitive tournament so I want something that's powerful but fun to use. With access to 3 different Psychic disciplines, auras off the Hemlock and Autarch, and Strength from Death shenanigans this should be a fun list to play.
It's not actually 2000pts but 100pl, which I really don't like as it makes it hard to tweak lists. The one great thing about power levels is that I get to use my Dire Avengers without totally shooting myself in the foot!
Please tell me what you think of the list and if possible address the following:
How is my anti-tank vs anti-infantry in this list?
The Fire Dragons are the only dedicated anti tank, will that be enough with some help from D-Scythes?
I don't have the Hemlock yet and have been considering taking 10 Warp Spiders instead. Hemlocks are better but the Spiders would be another short range shooty unit getting stuck in for some SfD.
I could also drop the Hemlock and Yvraine and take the Yncarne instead. He would add more anti-tank (and has the benefit of already being painted).
I could take 5 Wraithcannon Wraithguard instead of 10 Dire Avengers and make it a Vanguard detachment instead of a battalion (it would require some PL rejigging). At that point I think I might not have enough anti-horde shooting. Hordes are a lot harder for Ynnari to deal with as it makes it difficult to trigger SfD.
I hadn't thought about the extra command point from from splitting the dragons, nice catch. It would also allow me to put 5 DA and 5 FD in each serpent. If I was playing pure craftworld that would be a no-brainer but it makes a big difference when using Ynnari. 5 Fire Dragons are unlikely to take out a tank on their own to trigger SfD for a second shot. Two 5 man units could take out one target but that would only allow one of them to soulburst.
Big units of 10 also make more efficient use of Guide, Word of the Phoenix and Ancestors Grace.
I honestly don't know which will work best and it's probably match up and luck dependent. It's definitely something I need to think about so thanks for pointing it out.
Everything said about the hemlock is true.
Add to that the fact it throws out a large conceal footprint which synergises well with warp spiders and to a lesser extent shadow spectres (though they struggle to keep up).
And defensively with conceal it is great. 3+ armour and 6+ from spirit stones to back up the -2 to hit is a tough nut to crack. And often leaves the opponent in a tough position whether they sink all their firepower into downing it and leaving your other threats untouched, or let it run amok just throwing out wounds at will.
Plus on top of that it packs a -1 ld aura which can equate to more dead enemies once the morale phase rolls around. Not to mention a small synergy with a couple of niche leadership based attacks that the various aeldari factions lack, such as phantasm grenade launchers.
Big units of 10 also make more efficient use of Guide, Word of the Phoenix and Ancestors Grace.
Autarch is almost as good as Guide for BS3+ and you also re-roll wounds of 1 on vehicles and monsters. 6 FDs would put 9-10 wounds even without melta range, unless target has an invulnerable save. I would take 7 tops and even give Exarch a Flamer. You can finish last few wounds with shuriken spam and mortal wounds from Serpent and still soulburst.
You should put Farseer with DA's anyway since they would benefit from Doom lot more.
If you're not happy with your AT, take 1-2 twin bright lances as a backup, but I don't think they would be required.
Big units of 10 also make more efficient use of Guide, Word of the Phoenix and Ancestors Grace.
Autarch is almost as good as Guide for BS3+ and you also re-roll wounds on vehicles and monsters. 6 FDs would put 9-10 wounds even without melta range, unless target has an invulnerable save. I would take 7 tops and even give Exarch a Flamer. You can finish last few wounds with shuriken spam and mortal wounds from Serpent and still soulburst.
You should put Farseer with DA's anyway since they would benefit from Doom lot more. If you're not happy with your AT, take 1-2 twin bright lances as a backup, but I don't think they would be required.
Power levels are so annoying! It means I can't take units in anything other than 5 or 10. You have however given me a great 2000pts list with 7 Dragons and 5 Avengers in two of the serpents and a unit of 11 Guardian Defenders and a unit of 5 wraithguard in the other two. Nice.
I think 7 Dragons is the sweet spot if you want them to one shot a tank. You don't want to only just do it on average if you're planning your turn around it.
Messing with the maths I found that a unit of 10 Guided Dragons, shooting twice from WotP, within 6" of a Doomed Imperial Knight do an average of 40 wounds. Damn that's some firepower.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I think 7 Dragons is the sweet spot if you want them to one shot a tank. You don't want to only just do it on average if you're planning your turn around it.
Well, you can also split fire extra fusion guns from second group of 5.
Yeah D-scythe Wraithguard do have a lot going for them, but they're just so expensive.
They're somewhat cheaper than full squad of Fire Dragons while featuring better toughness and more wounds. As for their D3, that's where Command Points and Word of Phoenix are your friends. And they can smack head or two in melee and shoot after fall back, so enemy can't lock them from shooting (not that it's a good idea to assault a squad with auto-hitting D-Scythes ofc).
True, they are good don't get me wrong, I'm just struggling to find the space for it. And I'm not sure you'd want to take a full squad of Fire Dragons, surely five or six will do, which makes them a cheaper option.
And yeah the big thing for me about the Hemlock is that, thanks to auto-hit, it doesn't depreciate as it loses wounds. So many things across all armies I've read the profile of and thought "that looks good" only to realise it'll hit with like half as many of its attacks once it takes enough wounds.
The lone exarch idea was really just an efficiency thing with building an army, not sure it's worth it now as you can't fill out extra detachments and actually lose a CP. I'd still consider a lone ranger though for 20 points just to deny turn 1 models from appearing from reserves. And if your list revolves needing to put a character in a transport and that's the only way to get room, it's probably worth it.
What would be a good loadout for wave serpents? I need some since my army is all foot right now and it sucks, but I have two I got in a trade that were built from a past edition with scatter lasers glued to the turret (i.e. I can't remove it without breaking the model). Can these work, or should I just buy a new kit and build it modular or just with Shuriken Cannons to be cheap?
May have to try that, I have not magentized anything at all, ever. I'm trying to figure out now how to properly pin the weapons on the Wraithlord so he is modular, it looks easy enough but I am always fearful I am going to ruin the model by drilling or whatnot.
Shadenuat wrote: All-shuriken cannons, or Twin Bright lance + Shuriken cannon. Spirit stones if you have points.
Magnets recommended.
You can cut actual barrel of scatter lasers, drill then place magnet there, then place another into barrel part of shuriken cannon or lance.
I've also heard people have success with Vectored engine + all shuricannons. Turn 1 advance forward for -1 to be hit. Turn 2 disembark Wratihguard, Dragons or whatever, the move the Serpents and assault with them (to tie up non-FLY shooting units)
Dionysodorus wrote: Also note that you can only use Ynnari now by having one of the Ynnari HQs as Warlord. Not a huge deal, since Yvraine fits pretty well into most lists.
I'm actually struggling to think of any use for Ynnari characters in my army. I don't need them for either dragons or banshees. Jetbikes and any fast attack choices work better with jet farseer. Mech, serpents in particular, and everything in them benefits from autarch a lot. List made of tanks and flyers doesn't need SFD. But I like me some SFD on MSU troops and aspect warriors. Don't own any Wraithguard.
The only combo which is pretty much a given is Yvraine + Warlock + Dark Reapers.
But if I don't have anything on the level of 10 reapers squad or Wraithguard with D-Scythes, what's to use her for?
Yea I'm in the same boat with this one too. I'm a bit late to the 8th ed party and have only been playing 1k points games so far. I have been using a Skyrunner Autarch following behind 3 units of bikes and some scythe guard in a serpent and they have been doing well. Yes Yvraine gives decent powers and is great with Reapers, but what does she do if they all die? She seems a lil too slow, with too few wounds to be left on her own and if she had a transport she can't cast embarked. I suppose she could just babysit backfield objectives but that seems like a waste to me.
I do really enjoy the Ynnari background, had great success with them in 7th, would rather not go back to CWE. Any suggestions from you guys? What would a competitive 1k Ynnari list look like in your eyes?
Galef wrote: I've also heard people have success with Vectored engine + all shuricannons.
You can really put both - more upgrades actually make Serpent pay even less points for every wound making them even more cost efficient I believe.
I like Stones because they work even if you don't get 1st turn, and because I run Autarch outside and buff moving Serpents additionaly with his bubble and shoot turn 1. I find 16 move to be enough. (might be not enough for Wraith units tho, but so far was enough for dragons, banshees and guardians)
Yes Yvraine gives decent powers and is great with Reapers, but what does she do if they all die?
Yet to use Yvraine, but she is no slouch in combat against peasants. She fights almost as well as Jain Zar, costs less and has 4++. My theory and what I am going to try would be running her together with Wraith units and Banshees, with WoTP and Gaze of Ynnead (Autarch would take care of buffing things instead), and providing extra 5 attacks with her sword (1 from ANGRY CAT err I mean warlord trait), WoTP, Gaze and Smite on Soulburst.
I do really enjoy the Ynnari background, had great success with them in 7th, would rather not go back to CWE. Any suggestions from you guys? What would a competitive 1k Ynnari list look like in your eyes?
I hope to never get a competitive 1K Ynnari list in my eyes.
Yvraine is plenty great and more than just a reaper double tap.
Word of the Phoenix is 18 inch range so she can still cast from backfield.
With her special rule of gaining wounds back she is more durable than she looks unless they are able to take her out in one round, which is quite tough.
As with any psyker though she is primarily support so it depends on the rest of your army as to how much you will benefit from her.
Tho even without word of the Phoenix she can double smite with her gaze even being targetable which is great for sniping out characters and finishing off vehicles etc. and she is no slouch in combat either.
Hmm I may need to try and find more wave serpents then, since as I said the two I found were from 6th or 7th and were assembled with scatter lasers (and I don't have the weapon sprues anyways, like I said got them in a trade), and I'm always afraid of magnetizing that I'm going to destroy the model. Of course, Wave Serpent kit is out of stock right now on GW web site...
WYSIWYG is really loosely enforced everywhere I play. I have a WS with scatter lasers glued on that I just use as Shuriken Cannons all the time. Most non-Eldar probably don't even know the difference.
I've just changed my Serpents to have all Shuriken Cannons. It's the third time I've changed loadout over the last 10 year or so. No magnets or pins, I just snap them off every time, its pretty easy on Serpents.
Wayniac wrote: What would be a good loadout for wave serpents? I need some since my army is all foot right now and it sucks, but I have two I got in a trade that were built from a past edition with scatter lasers glued to the turret (i.e. I can't remove it without breaking the model). Can these work, or should I just buy a new kit and build it modular or just with Shuriken Cannons to be cheap?
Triple shurican cannon is a very good loadout as it is cheap but still allows the Serpent to put out a respectable 9 S6 shots at up to 24". Importantly, they are Assault rather than Heavy meaning the Serpent's firepower is not degraded when it moves unlike many vehicles. You can even shoot after advancing if you need that burst of speed. Vectored Engines on a triple Shuricannon build can be a neat trick but works best against low BS armies like Orks.
Brightlances are good too as the AP-4 means anything short of a Land Raider is getting no save. Scatter lasers are in an uncomfortable middle-ground now. They have more shots than Shuricannons but the -1 to hit when moving means that frequently won't translate into more hits (although the longer range can be useful). Having said that, Scatter lasers only cost slightly more than Shuricannons and the WS is such a good platform that you won't exactly be penalising yourself by taking them.
Spirit Stones are a good investment if you have the points spare as they will normally save a couple of wounds over the course of a typical game.
Karhedron wrote: Importantly, they are Assault rather than Heavy meaning the Serpent's firepower is not degraded when it moves unlike many vehicles. You can even shoot after advancing if you need that burst of speed. Vectored Engines on a triple Shuricannon build can be a neat trick but works best against low BS armies like Orks.
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just remember that most elder support/vehicles do not have Battle Focus, so if you use Advancing move you still suffer the -1 for using Assault weapons like every other race.
Karhedron wrote: Importantly, they are Assault rather than Heavy meaning the Serpent's firepower is not degraded when it moves unlike many vehicles. You can even shoot after advancing if you need that burst of speed. Vectored Engines on a triple Shuricannon build can be a neat trick but works best against low BS armies like Orks.
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just remember that most elder support/vehicles do not have Battle Focus, so if you use Advancing move you still suffer the -1 for using Assault weapons like every other race.
I think the idea is more that you actually can still shoot with Assault weapons after advancing, and Vectored Engines give your opponent a -1 to hit if you advance. So you can shoot, with a penalty, but give your opponent a penalty as well. Good if you need the Serpent to survive an extra turn for whatever reason and, of course, it doesn't affect the shield if you choose to shoot that.
Speaking of vehicle upgrades, spirit stones seem to me to be a steal for 10 points, especially considering how durable Serpents already are, but I find I can never quite find the usually at least 30 points for the Serpents I'm fielding. Should I try and find those points?
Spirit Stones are fairly strong as on average its another 2W, plus limited protection against Mortal Wounds, and at 10pts each its bordering on auto-take
I too find that I am a few points shy of getting both Vectored engines AND Spirit stones. My decision usually comes down to how many deployment drops I'll have. If I have few enough that I think I'm likely to be going first, I'll do VE, since I should have a turn to "activate" them. if I have a lot of drops, I'll that SS since they are always "on".
Speaking of, what HQ's do you guys think I should take in a Ynnari list built to have as few drops as possible? I'll be taking 2x 5 D-scythe WG, 7 Fire Dragons, 3 Serpents, 2 hemlocks and a Razorwing (cheapest Flyer I could take to get +1CP) I could fit Yncarne in that list, or Yvraine, a Farseer & bump the WG to 6 each
Yncarne provides some nice melee as well as a surprise element (where will she pop up next? try not to kill my units near you) Yvraine gives the same powers, but can embark in a WS, thus less drops. The Farseer also adds some versatility to the list, namely Guide (for Dragons) and Doom. Having more WG is also great, especially if it gives them enough extra wounds to kill a unit and thus Soulburst
Turnip Jedi wrote: Spirit Stones are fairly strong as on average its another 2W, plus limited protection against Mortal Wounds, and at 10pts each its bordering on auto-take
I don't find this to be true for triple cannon Serpents. Yes, it makes them 20% more durable for 7% more points, but they don't need to be more durable. They're already only paying 11 points per T7 3+ wound with resistance to multi-damage weapons. Their downside is just that their shooting is unimpressive. Most opponents are not going to bother shooting at most of your Serpents anyway, provided you're giving them any better targets, such as flyers or literally anything else that's not a Serpent.
In my experience, maybe my opponent shoots at one of my Serpents on their first turn. Maybe they kill it. But after this they're shooting at the things that were in the Serpents or at my Hemlocks or at whatever else. This means that I'm not really making all of my Serpents more durable by giving them all Spirit Stones. I have to pay to give every Serpent the Stones, but the only actual impact this has on the game before turn 4 is that one Serpent is harder to kill.
Spirit Stones probably make sense on a single Serpent carrying Wraithguard or Fire Dragons while your others carry Guardians. I don't think they make sense on 3 or 4 Serpents.
Edit: And I'd note that Spirit Stones only look okay on a single triple cannon Serpent -- you're getting about as much durability as you're paying for, but it's not like it's a bargain. The easy way to estimate this stuff is to say that if a unit is going to be 1.2 times as durable then you expect to pay the square root of 1.2 times as much for it.
I was taking spirit stones on everything I could at first, but I just don't roll enough 6's, at least not when it counts. I've started not taking them and saving the points and I haven't really seen a downturn in my durability, even though on paper it's there.
Gangrel767 wrote: I was taking spirit stones on everything I could at first, but I just don't roll enough 6's, at least not when it counts. I've started not taking them and saving the points and I haven't really seen a downturn in my durability, even though on paper it's there.
I'm going to skip on spirit stones for a while.
This is just such a ridiculous thing to write
Assuming you play the same number of games as everyone else, you roll the exact same number of 6s as everyone else.
It might be the "nerf" to all flyers - that they don't count towards Sudden Death victory condition? So if your army is loads of razorwings, the opponent just needs to delete the rest to win?
Turnip Jedi wrote: Spirit Stones are fairly strong as on average its another 2W, plus limited protection against Mortal Wounds, and at 10pts each its bordering on auto-take
I don't find this to be true for triple cannon Serpents. Yes, it makes them 20% more durable for 7% more points, but they don't need to be more durable. They're already only paying 11 points per T7 3+ wound with resistance to multi-damage weapons. Their downside is just that their shooting is unimpressive. Most opponents are not going to bother shooting at most of your Serpents anyway, provided you're giving them any better targets, such as flyers or literally anything else that's not a Serpent.
In my experience, maybe my opponent shoots at one of my Serpents on their first turn. Maybe they kill it. But after this they're shooting at the things that were in the Serpents or at my Hemlocks or at whatever else. This means that I'm not really making all of my Serpents more durable by giving them all Spirit Stones. I have to pay to give every Serpent the Stones, but the only actual impact this has on the game before turn 4 is that one Serpent is harder to kill.
Spirit Stones probably make sense on a single Serpent carrying Wraithguard or Fire Dragons while your others carry Guardians. I don't think they make sense on 3 or 4 Serpents.
Edit: And I'd note that Spirit Stones only look okay on a single triple cannon Serpent -- you're getting about as much durability as you're paying for, but it's not like it's a bargain. The easy way to estimate this stuff is to say that if a unit is going to be 1.2 times as durable then you expect to pay the square root of 1.2 times as much for it.
Agreed on all points. I want my opponent shooting at my Wave Serpents, instead of the things that will actually win the game for me. If they see stacked durability on the things, that makes it less likely to be a target.
Galef wrote: Speaking of, what HQ's do you guys think I should take in a Ynnari list built to have as few drops as possible?
If it's a choice between Yvraine and The Yncarne, I'd go Yrvaine every time. I think she's the best Ynnari character overall and, although The Yncarne's melee ability is nice, you're really only taking Ynnari for Strength from Death and Word of the Pheonix, both of which Yvraine provides just fine. If you're focused on minimising drops, that's even more reason to opt for Yrvaine. If you need choices on top of that, go lone Warlocks if you want to save on points, or Farseers on foot if you feel you need the psychic powers. You've got plenty of space in the Serpent with the seven fire dragons to fit any extra characters without adding to your drops.
I think spirit stones work on serpents with EML and Bright Lances. Your opponent will get tired of those at some point.
I rarely take them for my rush assault, very much needs to get there serpents. I usually take Star Engines so that I can get my wraithguard and firedragons at the point I want so they can disembark after my opponent has just a single turn to fire or re deploy.
So it's predominantly a horde of close combat focused cheap infantry?
Anything with a high rate of fire would be useful. Stuff like shadow spectres or warp spiders then are handy throwing out a lot of shots. Similarly even just guardian defenders can dish out the hurt at short range.
A hemlock will be hard to deal with for an army like that and can really put the hurt on any demon princes.
Problem is with 12" range guarDian's lose in ranged to horrors and demonettes can easily charge 12 in a turn aND wipe out your squad.I will check out spectre and warp spiders and I think hemlock could be really good against spawns and princes
Can you guys beat IG lists with conscripts? I was hypothesizing this over on another thread, but I have no clue in reality. If not, BA and Eldar might be in the same boat for once.
Martel732 wrote: Can you guys beat IG lists with conscripts? I was hypothesizing this over on another thread, but I have no clue in reality. If not, BA and Eldar might be in the same boat for once.
I'm all over the other threads on conscripts, but I may as well share what I've learned here specific to Eldar. Nothing flat out beats them, but the same thing that makes them strong (many models benefit from one buff) is also their weakness (debuffs hit many models as well).
Sooo... Phoenix with Nightfire Missile arrays. Conceal (though that's obviously limited to what it can cover). Fliers in general.
I did fly a hemlock behind the conscripts to bust up some tanks and heavy weapons. Even at -2 to hit though (conceal+flier), they did searchlight me and hurt me pretty bad with frfsrf rapid-fire. It's not a bad thing to distract the conscripts with though, seeing as the Hemlock doesn't really care about taking heavy damage. In this case, when it exploded it even killed a commissar! Too bad that guy runs two commissars just in case he wants to split his units up or deal with snipers, and I still lost this game horribly.
I don't use Forgeworld (yet?) so I haven't tried the Phoenix, but it definitely seems like an option to just keep them pinned at -1 BS and then try to ignore them.
I disagree with people who say to use Rangers to kill the commissars. Rangers are so bad at killing things that you have to take 200 points of them per 31 point commissar you want to kill, or at least if you want to do it in one turn. That costs more than the conscripts you're supposed to be making it more efficient to kill...
I've done the math for a bunch of different straight up slugfests at equal points (401 for 100 conscripts +buffs) and all of our non-FW stuff loses badly. Like, really really badly. I say non-FW because I haven't done that math, not because they win.
Phoenix, like Sunrifle, does nothing. The debuff lasts until the end of eldar turn.
Actually, are there any classic Iyanden lovers here? Exchange all your transports points for moar Wraithguard with d-scythes and swords, add guardians blob and see how it goes against boyz and conscripts. Best I could test are 30 scatbikes.
Shadenuat wrote: Phoenix, like Sunrifle, does nothing. The debuff lasts until the end of eldar turn.
Actually, are there any classic Iyanden lovers here? Exchange all your transports points for moar Wraithguard with d-scythes and swords, add guardians blob and see how it goes against boyz and conscripts. Best I could test are 30 scatbikes.
Welp. I'm glad I didn't go out and buy a forgeworld index and a squadron of Phoenix's then lol.
Still seems really good, but don't help so much with the conscript problem.
admironheart wrote: so with conscripts the math is against elder.... but what is our most shooty single wounds unit? Is it EML, Reapers, guardians?
By the math what unit doles out the most dead conscripts?
then if we spam that does it become something workable?
Theoretically shuriken cannnons and scatter lasers should be great against them. Unlike all the S5 infantry killers, they actually wound on 2+. But they cost 12/15 points and it takes 2-3 turns to earn that back alone.... forget the cost of the chassis it's mounted on lol.
This is how bad it is: even if we could spam heavy weapons platforms without the guardian defenders around them, we can't kill them efficiently. Meanwhile their lasguns are perfect for killing our silly elven T3 infantry...
and this thread just took away the only feasible answer I'd come across. Sigh
admironheart wrote: so with conscripts the math is against elder.... but what is our most shooty single wounds unit? Is it EML, Reapers, guardians?
By the math what unit doles out the most dead conscripts?
then if we spam that does it become something workable?
The answer to any question like this is basically always going to be either Guardians or Fire Dragons.
Guardians expect to make back about 25% of their points when shooting at Conscripts. This is really good -- very little else in the game can do that, though they're not quite on the level of Sisters with storm bolters. The basic plan should probably be to charge with Serpents in the same turn that the Guardians disembark while a Hemlock uses Conceal on the Guardians.
For the conscript problem has anyone considered Scatbikes? They are the cheapest way to get Scatter lasers which are ideal for combating them as they can stay out of range of the conscripts lasguns. You would want them to remain still so as not to be -1 to hit.
For 210pts (50 conscripts plus a a support character or two I'm not sure what they usually take) you can get 6 Scatter lasers. It means you can sit out of range and take chunks out of the blob without return fire and if they get closer you can move. You could even cast conceal on the bikes and park them in cover to make them quite tough to take out, as they are T4 W2 each. Guiding the bikes and Doming the blob would do a lot too.
Korlandril wrote: For the conscript problem has anyone considered Scatbikes? They are the cheapest way to get Scatter lasers which are ideal for combating them as they can stay out of range of the conscripts lasguns. You would want them to remain still so as not to be -1 to hit.
For 210pts (50 conscripts plus a a support character or two I'm not sure what they usually take) you can get 6 Scatter lasers. It means you can sit out of range and take chunks out of the blob without return fire and if they get closer you can move. You could even cast conceal on the bikes and park them in cover to make them quite tough to take out, as they are T4 W2 each. Guiding the bikes and Doming the blob would do a lot too.
A scatter bike expects to kill about 12.5% of its points in Conscripts per turn. A Conscript blob can just sit and take it and then eventually beat you on objectives because even after 5 turns of solid shooting with no retaliation they still outnumber your bikes. Guide does help, though you can only do this with one squad. Doom doesn't help very much because you're already wounding on a 2+.
But in practice Windriders are just bad because the enemy army will consist of more than just Conscripts. As I pointed out, they don't actually kill Conscripts efficiently -- you're just showing that they can eventually beat Conscripts if it's just bikes vs guardsmen. So the Guard player has two options. They can ignore your Windriders which are shooting the Conscripts because the Windriders aren't going to have paid for themselves by the end of the game even if they get to just sit and shoot every turn. You're not clearing away the Conscripts quickly enough to matter and the rest of the Guard army is going to be killing the rest of your stuff while still being protected behind a wall of bodies. Or they can kill your Windriders with something other than Conscripts. Windriders are incredibly fragile for their cost -- a deep-striking Scion plasma command squad, with officer, expects to kill 5 Windriders. With cover it's still 4.3 Windriders. With Conceal and cover both it's still 3.2 Windriders. Which is to say that a Scion squad, including the cost of its Tempestor Prime, expects to kill more than its points in Windriders even if the Windriders are in cover and Concealed and we're not even counting the cost of the Warlock. And lots of other stuff is really happy to shoot at Windriders too.
And of course scatter bikes are a huge handicap in just about every other matchup.
Korlandril wrote: For the conscript problem has anyone considered Scatbikes? They are the cheapest way to get Scatter lasers which are ideal for combating them as they can stay out of range of the conscripts lasguns. You would want them to remain still so as not to be -1 to hit.
For 210pts (50 conscripts plus a a support character or two I'm not sure what they usually take) you can get 6 Scatter lasers. It means you can sit out of range and take chunks out of the blob without return fire and if they get closer you can move. You could even cast conceal on the bikes and park them in cover to make them quite tough to take out, as they are T4 W2 each. Guiding the bikes and Doming the blob would do a lot too.
A scatter bike expects to kill about 12.5% of its points in Conscripts per turn. A Conscript blob can just sit and take it and then eventually beat you on objectives because even after 5 turns of solid shooting with no retaliation they still outnumber your bikes. Guide does help, though you can only do this with one squad. Doom doesn't help very much because you're already wounding on a 2+.
But in practice Windriders are just bad because the enemy army will consist of more than just Conscripts. As I pointed out, they don't actually kill Conscripts efficiently -- you're just showing that they can eventually beat Conscripts if it's just bikes vs guardsmen. So the Guard player has two options. They can ignore your Windriders which are shooting the Conscripts because the Windriders aren't going to have paid for themselves by the end of the game even if they get to just sit and shoot every turn. You're not clearing away the Conscripts quickly enough to matter and the rest of the Guard army is going to be killing the rest of your stuff while still being protected behind a wall of bodies. Or they can kill your Windriders with something other than Conscripts. Windriders are incredibly fragile for their cost -- a deep-striking Scion plasma command squad, with officer, expects to kill 5 Windriders. With cover it's still 4.3 Windriders. With Conceal and cover both it's still 3.2 Windriders. Which is to say that a Scion squad, including the cost of its Tempestor Prime, expects to kill more than its points in Windriders even if the Windriders are in cover and Concealed and we're not even counting the cost of the Warlock. And lots of other stuff is really happy to shoot at Windriders too.
And of course scatter bikes are a huge handicap in just about every other matchup.
Just suggesting as they are good in terms of being out of range of the conscripts themselves and I think are better than any other thing we have that can stay out of range and still fire on them.
So conscripts are best combated with guardians in Wave Serpents, I think having a squad of Wraithblades with accompanying Warlock to drain the Conscripts or enhance the Wraithblades (-1 to hit in combat making Conscripts 6+, or +1 to hit 2+ for the Wraithblades) could compliment a squad of Guardians quite well. Sure you are spending more points to get rid of the conscripts but you can use these units for more than one turn.
Wraithblades with Ghostswords on the charge with enhance kill on average 13.88 Conscripts. Guardians with Shuriken Cannon force 9ish saves with a few of those being bladestorm. Add on to that the 6 Shuriken cannons from the Wave Serpents one phase of -1 shooting due to advancing to benefit from Vectored Engines and get into position and then shooting after dropping off troops results in 17 or so saves with some bladestorm. Then you charge one or both both Serpents to soak up overwatch and charge in your wraithblades and guardians to mop up the remaining.
615pts that would cost, 3x as much as conscripts. It's not ideal but it's an option you can choose to pursue if you absolutely have to get rid of them. And they shouldn't be able to do much damage in return as they only get to fire at -1 to hit Wave Serpents and then overwatch against them.
And they shouldn't be able to do much damage in return as they only get to fire at -1 to hit Wave Serpents and then overwatch against them.
Hm? Guard has an Order that allows to shoot after falling back.
It goes:
Wave Serpents advance up and fire on conscripts 5 Dead
Next turn Guardians Warlock and Wraithblades jump out
Warlock casts enhance on Wraithblades
Guardians and Waves fire on them 12 Dead
Charge phase Waves charge in first to soak up overwatch followed by Guardians, Wraithblades and Warlock
Fight phase Wraithblades inflict 13.88 casualties on average plus Guardians, Waves and Warlock contribution from assault should get you 18 Dead
On average with just those units you should kill 35 Conscripts. Which isn't that good but you should have a farseer in your force for Doom and you should be able to divert some firepower from elsewhere to take out the rest of the squad. It's not perfect but I think it's quite efficient. I'm going to look into other unit combinations that might be able to do better against them for a similar or better points cost.
Edit:
With Doom calculations:
Serpents do 20 wounds (one shooting after advancing one normal) = 3 go through from bladestorm and 11.33 to through after saves
With doom and enhance Wraithblades cause 16 casualties on average
Guardians shoot for 13 wounds = 2 bladestorm and 7.33 go through after saves
Guardians assault for 5 wounds, wave Serpents assault for 1 wound, warlock assaults for 1 wound too for 4.66 casualties.
Total with Doom is 44 Conscripts, as well as higher average rerolling from Doom grants more reliable average too.
What I didn't calculate was if one guardian threw a grenade instead or if the Warlock fired his pistol.
Farseer+Warlock+2xWave Serpents+Guardians with Shuriken Cannon+Wraithblades=728pts
Only 1 elder list undefeated currently in the BAO. the player is Adam Gati. He's running:
Yncarne
Farseer
2x 5 man d-scythe guard
1x 5 man cannon guard
2 hemlocks
3 wave serpents
Unsure how well he'll deal with the horde armies (especially guard) that seem to be dominating
The only jp wrote: Only 1 elder list undefeated currently in the BAO. the player is Adam Gati. He's running:
Yncarne
Farseer
2x 5 man d-scythe guard
1x 5 man cannon guard
2 hemlocks
3 wave serpents
Unsure how well he'll deal with the horde armies (especially guard) that seem to be dominating
Dang that sounds like a mean list.
I'm curious if anyone has come across issues running Shadow Spectres in pickup games, or tournaments?
I've just gotten ahold of the models and really just want to run them in my army.
The only jp wrote: Only 1 elder list undefeated currently in the BAO. the player is Adam Gati. He's running:
Yncarne
Farseer
2x 5 man d-scythe guard
1x 5 man cannon guard
2 hemlocks
3 wave serpents
Unsure how well he'll deal with the horde armies (especially guard) that seem to be dominating
That is pretty nasty but with the hemlocks and Serpents being T6 or higher, all those lasguns are only going to be wounding on a 6 and then 3+ saves. Even 150 lasguns (typical for guard infantry-spam) are probably only going to be doing ~2 wounds per turn so it depends what the victory conditions for the game are. The Serpents can put out 27 S6 shots per turn which will nibble away at hordes to some extent.
Ironically, assaulting with the Wraithguard might be the best option. Hose the infantry with the D-scythes and charge into combat. Wraithguard fists will be hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s with AP-1. The Guard will be hitting back on 4s (5s for conscripts) and wounding on 5s with no AP. If the Guard walk out of combat, they will have to use Voice of Command to shoot meaning they are not using it for better abilities. If they stay in combat the Wraithguard can walk out in their turn and shoot again thanks to "Implacable".
Not an easy battle for sure but the Eldar could come out on top. The key will be using the Hemlocks to super-snipe key characters like Commissars who hold Guard together. Take them out and Battleshock will make those infantry squads melt like butter. Doom from the Farseer will help here too.
The only jp wrote: Only 1 elder list undefeated currently in the BAO. the player is Adam Gati. He's running:
Yncarne
Farseer
2x 5 man d-scythe guard
1x 5 man cannon guard
2 hemlocks
3 wave serpents
Unsure how well he'll deal with the horde armies (especially guard) that seem to be dominating
Well that is good to hear that a list like this is doing so well. I am building towards a very similar list, although at 2K pts, I have 3x 3 Reapers & 1 unit of Dragons instead of the Cannon guard.
I also take an Autarch with Reaper Launcher to babysit the Reapers
I'm curious if anyone has come across issues running Shadow Spectres in pickup games, or tournaments?
I've just gotten ahold of the models and really just want to run them in my army.
I just ran them for the first time over the weekend in 3 local games. Both firing modes are great, surprisingly the flamer mode works really well on characters with invul saves. The lance mode eats space marines for breakfast. You move 12" can advance and still fire your weapon as they are assault so their range stat is deceiving it has a a decent reach more so than I was expecting. They are quick and the -1 to hit does help these guys because they are still squishy elves. Hug cover when you can and have a hemlock close by cast conceal to increase their - to hit. They are not great at anti-tank due to dmg 1 per wound. Having them shoot at armor feels like a tarpit trap. Particularly if you are shooting a vehicle that is decent at assault (DON'T use these guys to go after an Imperial Knight). They can usually wither the assault phase and manage to fall back with 1 or 2 dudes left enough to be annoying or run after a long objective.
If you guys can't get rid of the commissars, anything you shoot at the conscripts puts the IG players that much further ahead, because it's basically the same as not shooting.
5 Kabalites 5 Kabalites 5 Kabalites Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons
___Super Heavy Auxiliary____ Revenant Titan w/ Pulsars ____________________________________2000pts/ 6CPs
The idea is that the Autarch hangs near the Revanant since it already hits on 2+, so re-rolling 1s is the same as Guide. That leaves the Farseer free to cast Fortune on it and Doom on the enemy. All the Venoms are there to also take advantage of Doom. The Kabalites are just there to be cheap Battalion filler and to unlock the Venoms
But I really think that a list like this needs to table the opponent to win, don't bother trying for objectives.
5 Kabalites
5 Kabalites
5 Kabalites
Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons
Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons
Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons
Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons
___Super Heavy Auxiliary____
Revenant Titan w/ Pulsars
____________________________________2000pts/ 6CPs
The idea is that the Autarch hangs near the Revanant since it already hits on 2+, so re-rolling 1s is the same as Guide. That leaves the Farseer free to cast Fortune on it and Doom on the enemy. All the Venoms are there to also take advantage of Doom. The Kabalites are just there to be cheap Battalion filler and to unlock the Venoms
But I really think that a list like this needs to table the opponent to win, don't bother trying for objectives.
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Definetly is a table only list. One issue I think though is an autarch can't buff a revenant, they don't have craftworld keyword but spirithost instead.
Venom or equivalent gun ships is definetly a good idea though.
Dire Avengers and Fire Dragons sit in one Serpent, while 2 Guardian units are in the other 2. HQs go into Serpents or hide in between, so they cannot be shot; Shining Spears hide behind walls, so opponents have literally nothing to shoot at besides Wave Serpents, which are very tough, especially with Spirit Stones, and a single one even didn't go down from an Admech shooting turn. Next turn, I'm forward, close to their dep zone, and everything comes out and shoots all infantry killers to smithereens.
Definetly is a table only list. One issue I think though is an autarch can't buff a revenant, they don't have craftworld keyword but spirithost instead.
Venom or equivalent gun ships is definetly a good idea though.
Good spot on the <Craftworld> keyword. I though he affected <Asunyari>. In that case, you could swap the Autarch for a Farseer on foot with Guide + Doom + some Blasters on 2 Kabalites units
The more I look at the Revenant, the more I think it is better than 2 WKs. Its first turn shooting alone is better than 4 heavy Wraithcannon and a Suncannon
Definetly is a table only list. One issue I think though is an autarch can't buff a revenant, they don't have craftworld keyword but spirithost instead.
Venom or equivalent gun ships is definetly a good idea though.
Good spot on the <Craftworld> keyword. I though he affected <Asunyari>. In that case, you could swap the Autarch for a Farseer on foot with Guide + Doom + some Blasters on 2 Kabalites units
The more I look at the Revenant, the more I think it is better than 2 WKs. Its first turn shooting alone is better than 4 heavy Wraithcannon and a Suncannon
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Revenant is pretty good. It's going to compare favorably to one of the worst models in the Eldar index. (Wraithknights).
Also the Revenant quickly degrades from BS +2 to +3 and worse. You'll definitely want to guide him.
Also the Revenant quickly degrades from BS +2 to +3 and worse. You'll definitely want to guide him.
Agreed, I am taking the GuideSeer as insurance for the opponent Seizing Initiative and stripping those wounds.
With proper deployment, it should be pretty easy for the Revenant to stay out of range of most weapons, just hop side to side to get that 24" move for the Invul save. Turn 1 you delete 2-3 units that are the biggest threat to you, such as any unit/model that has multiple Lascannons or equivalent. Doing this each turn should make it increasingly difficult for the enemy deal with the Revenant, allowing it to move closer and eventually engage in melee for some extra punch.
Hey I know people have mentioned this to some extent.
Has anyone used warp spiders to any success? I only glanced at the dataslate this morning, but I don't think i saw you could deep strike which really blows for them I think.. none the less, being able to warp out of combat and shoot seems like a decent thing.
Grizzyzz wrote: none the less, being able to warp out of combat and shoot seems like a decent thing.
Rules as written I don't think you can shoot if you leave combat. When you use their Jump Generators, they only count as Flying for the duration of the Move phase. When you get to the shooting phase, they are no longer flying and so cannot shoot. :( This combined with the loss of move-shoot-move has seriously hurt them.
Grizzyzz wrote: none the less, being able to warp out of combat and shoot seems like a decent thing.
Rules as written I don't think you can shoot if you leave combat. When you use their Jump Generators, they only count as Flying for the duration of the Move phase. When you get to the shooting phase, they are no longer flying and so cannot shoot. :( This combined with the loss of move-shoot-move has seriously hurt them.
AHHH yes you are 100% correct. In my haste and naivety I concluded something better than existed.. man what a shame that could have been something cool
Grizzyzz wrote: none the less, being able to warp out of combat and shoot seems like a decent thing.
Rules as written I don't think you can shoot if you leave combat. When you use their Jump Generators, they only count as Flying for the duration of the Move phase. When you get to the shooting phase, they are no longer flying and so cannot shoot. :( This combined with the loss of move-shoot-move has seriously hurt them.
This man is correct.
Warp Spiders belong in the dumpster. For one extra point you get Shadow Specters who are arguably ten times better but thematically the same.
They went from "make an army just of those" to "take a few as fire support and use your brain".
Spiders definitely need shooting after FB though, and windriders and Wraithknight deserve a point drop due to jetbikes being overpriced for what they do (S6 weapon and new rules for cover made them less effective against infantry by far and point-to-point + overall fragility) and WK is just overpriced for his amount of wounds.
An option to take dual Wraithcannons with 5++ would change a lot for me too.
Grizzyzz wrote: none the less, being able to warp out of combat and shoot seems like a decent thing.
Rules as written I don't think you can shoot if you leave combat. When you use their Jump Generators, they only count as Flying for the duration of the Move phase. When you get to the shooting phase, they are no longer flying and so cannot shoot. :( This combined with the loss of move-shoot-move has seriously hurt them.
This man is correct.
Warp Spiders belong in the dumpster. For one extra point you get Shadow Specters who are arguably ten times better but thematically the same.
This is quite arguable.
The Jump Generators give Fly until end of the phase, but the Fall Back rule states: "If the unit Falls Back, it cannot advance or charge later that turn. The unit also cannot shoot later that turn unless it has Fly".
It seems like the rule gets checked in the movement phase and allows the model to shoot "later that turn", even if it loses Fly.
Also, RAI, it will be very-very weird if Warp Spiders cannot Fall Back and Shoot, since they had Hit&Run in the last edition. Waiting for this to be FAQ'd.
Hey guys, couple questions for you. Thinking about getting into Eldar, but I am having trouble wrapping my head around all the stuff they have (been a long time since I played anything that wasn't Imperium). Made up a list to potentially towards and wanted to know what people opinions on it were.
Spoiler:
HQ -Eldred
-Asurman
-Maugan Ra
TROOPS
-10x Dire Avenger w/ Dire Sword Exarch
-10x Dire Avenger w/ Dire Sword Exarch
-10x Rangers
I mainly wanted this to be for fun, so as long as something like this could put up a decent fight I'm happy. But, the questions I had after reading through this thread (at different times, so may have missed or forgotten some of it in here).
-I read that the Eldar named characters are a bit overpriced. So even though I really want to use them, how badly am I gimping myself?
-Striking Scorpions looked pretty good, are they worth it?
-It looks like Rangers aren't providing much killing power, is sniping overrated, and is there much value for them in objective games?
-Was thinking of swapping out Maugan Ra for Karandras, since the Dark Reapers Exarchs provide a similar benefit and it brings me to 1,995.
-Personally, I don't care for any of the Wraith units or models, how bad am I hurting the staying power of this army without any of them?
Shuricannon bikes seem pretty good this edition, especially when combined with Doom. They do not get the -1 to Hit from moving and can even fire after Advancing. AP-3 on a 6 to wound is nice against anything with armour. Small units are just a nuisance but used in quantities they can chew through Marines with frightening speed.
The Jump Generators give Fly until end of the phase, but the Fall Back rule states: "If the unit Falls Back, it cannot advance or charge later that turn. The unit also cannot shoot later that turn unless it has Fly".
It seems like the rule gets checked in the movement phase and allows the model to shoot "later that turn", even if it loses Fly.
Hrmmm... that is an interesting thing to point out.
Karhedron wrote: Shuricannon bikes seem pretty good this edition, especially when combined with Doom. They do not get the -1 to Hit from moving and can even fire after Advancing. AP-3 on a 6 to wound is nice against anything with armour. Small units are just a nuisance but used in quantities they can chew through Marines with frightening speed.
The issue I am facing is that there are very few cost effective units that go well with those bikes that can actually open up all the metal boxes on the first turn and allow the bikes to get all those massed shots on the Marines.
Both the hemlock and crimson hunters are good anti tank and will start it up first turn.
Also shining spears are made for anti tank, tho their short range makes them iffy about first turn. Depends on deployment.
Then as mentioned wraithguard or fire dragons out of wave serpents, tho once again not on first turn.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Hey guys, couple questions for you. Thinking about getting into Eldar, but I am having trouble wrapping my head around all the stuff they have (been a long time since I played anything that wasn't Imperium). Made up a list to potentially towards and wanted to know what people opinions on it were.
Spoiler:
HQ -Eldred
-Asurman
-Maugan Ra
TROOPS
-10x Dire Avenger w/ Dire Sword Exarch
-10x Dire Avenger w/ Dire Sword Exarch
-10x Rangers
I mainly wanted this to be for fun, so as long as something like this could put up a decent fight I'm happy. But, the questions I had after reading through this thread (at different times, so may have missed or forgotten some of it in here).
-I read that the Eldar named characters are a bit overpriced. So even though I really want to use them, how badly am I gimping myself?
-Striking Scorpions looked pretty good, are they worth it?
-It looks like Rangers aren't providing much killing power, is sniping overrated, and is there much value for them in objective games?
-Was thinking of swapping out Maugan Ra for Karandras, since the Dark Reapers Exarchs provide a similar benefit and it brings me to 1,995.
-Personally, I don't care for any of the Wraith units or models, how bad am I hurting the staying power of this army without any of them?
I personally don't see the benefit that Dire Avenges provide over just Guardians honestly, not for the points. I'm having a lot of success with running 3 units of Guardians in 3 Wave Serpents. With Ynnari, the Soul burst is brutal against infantry. You can swap Yvraine for one of the named characters.
I love Wraith units, but if you don't care for them Fire Dragons do the trick as well. Get a 4th Wave serpent with Fire Dragons and you have some anti-tank punch.
Rangers seem like a waste of points, but if you are going to take that many Rangers and two units of Dark Reapers, a cheap Autarch will have them all re-rolling 1s which could be a nice, if cramped, firebase to shoot from.
Not sure about Striking Scorpions, I have to build mine still, but sometimes the rule of cool wins out and I love those models.
Striking Scorpions are great because they can deploy 9" away and can do so into cover getting them a 2+ save which is really nice as a distraction. 105pts for 5 with a Biting Blade.
If you take a Dire Avenger squad of 5 you can take another squad in the same wave Serpent and characters too, Warlocks for conceal and enhance are always good.
well I put my striking scorpions away for this edition and am using all my howling banshees in every game. My opponent hates that his charge units gets interrupted during the fight phase. Between my Autarch and twin Banshee units. I get to deal some damage on my opponents during their turn and they turn everything on the Banshees.
I think having mixed squads in a Wave Serpent is really cool having a mix of Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons or Howling Banshees supported by Autarchs, Farseers and especially Warlocks is at least a fun tactic to play
Korlandril wrote: I think having mixed squads in a Wave Serpent is really cool having a mix of Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons or Howling Banshees supported by Autarchs, Farseers and especially Warlocks is at least a fun tactic to play
That is ALL I play. Dark reapers, banshees and fire dragons teamed with dire avengers to jump out and do a nice job of surgical strikes. So far I have lost most games on objectives, but clearly won the war of attrition as my assault forces have been able to clear away Guard, marines and nids fairly nicely. If I could ever get a 6 turn game in I may even win one lol
Korlandril wrote: I think having mixed squads in a Wave Serpent is really cool having a mix of Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons or Howling Banshees supported by Autarchs, Farseers and especially Warlocks is at least a fun tactic to play
That is ALL I play. Dark reapers, banshees and fire dragons teamed with dire avengers to jump out and do a nice job of surgical strikes. So far I have lost most games on objectives, but clearly won the war of attrition as my assault forces have been able to clear away Guard, marines and nids fairly nicely. If I could ever get a 6 turn game in I may even win one lol
But in all seriousness, given the number of units that are underpowered in the codex, mechanised Eldar is one of the relatively few competitive builds around at the moment. Wave Serpents are good and also provide an effective way of getting the effective units we do have close to the enemy where they can do some damage.
I am going to work points around a little bit to try and get 1 more caress on the harliquins. They have been phenominal so far in my games. Put out a ton of wounds. The warp spiders I am still feeling out. First game, they flopped (partially my fault for forgetting flickerfield). Second game, was maelstrom and they were monsters of repositioning. The s6 is decent and the -4 is handy. Working with Yvraine, they can essentially get an 8d6" move which if that doesn't get you an objective.. idk what will.
Yriel has been the all-star. Do not underestimate him this edition. He is an under the radar extraordinaire. hits on 2s, WOUNDS on 2s, and d3 damage is brutal. in two good combats he did the majority of damage to bring down a land raider, has fought demon princes, and many guardsman have died by his hands.
What are people's thoughts about Command Points in 8th edition?
Our Troop units seem somewhat mediocre. Guardians make an adequate filling for Wave Serpents but that is about it. Dire Avengers and Rangers both seem overpriced. Is it worth paying the tax for the extra CPs or are we better off running Vanguards etc for our Detachments?
I don't think we will have an incentive to take more troops until we get a codex to give us obsec and good stratagems. I also think that the Craftworld specific stratagems and chapter tactics equivalent rules will give us a good reason to not run Ynnari. Strength from death vs battle focus is no contest, but when craftworld tactics is added to battle focus and Ynnari still just have SfD it might be more of a choice.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I don't think we will have an incentive to take more troops until we get a codex to give us obsec and good stratagems. I also think that the Craftworld specific stratagems and chapter tactics equivalent rules will give us a good reason to not run Ynnari. Strength from death vs battle focus is no contest, but when craftworld tactics is added to battle focus and Ynnari still just have SfD it might be more of a choice.
Hopefully we get some way to get more CP too. Having a bunch of fragile, short-ranged infantry makes it very hard to fill out detachments -- Eldar infantry are designed to require transports. It's pretty hard to come up with a decent Eldar army that gets more than 7 CP. That's really not enough to get much out of the kinds of stratagems we've seen in the new codices.
Think so? The big +9 units seem doable ... 3 HQ (Aurach and two Warlocks, or Farseer, Aurach, and Warlock) is easy, 3 elites and fast attack are simple, 3 heavy ... okay, that, I confess, is harder ... and then 6 troops. Get the cost of Dire Avengers down to 12 like they're supposed to be and it should be workable.
Heavy Support is no problem as Reapers are really good. Able to take on everything from MEQs to aircraft and can fire on the move if you wish. A 3-man squad is only a bit over 100 points. Or 2 squads and a Wraithlord to babysit them.
Anyway, it is not so much the feasibility of building a Brigade, I'm sure it can be done. The question is whether the amount of chaff required to field one is worth the extra CPs you get from it. I doubt I will be playing anything bigger than 2000 points so a Brigade at that level would be lots of MSUs and very few transports. Yes it can be done but it is not really playing to our strengths. I would say our top units in the Index list are Wave Serpents, Wraithguard/blades, Hemlocks, Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers. I could run Vanguard which hits very hard but only gives 1CP or I could chuck in some Troops for a Brigade that nets me 3CPs but contains 3 underperforming units that are mainly there for the CPs rather than their combat performance.
Our cheapest Troop choice is 64 points and you need 3 in a Brigade. Is it worth spending 192 points for 2 extra CPs? In practice I would probably run Guardian Defenders at 80 points and put them in Serpents but you get the gist.
Wakshaani wrote: Think so? The big +9 units seem doable ... 3 HQ (Aurach and two Warlocks, or Farseer, Aurach, and Warlock) is easy, 3 elites and fast attack are simple, 3 heavy ... okay, that, I confess, is harder ... and then 6 troops. Get the cost of Dire Avengers down to 12 like they're supposed to be and it should be workable.
That heavy support's the only trip-up.
I mean, what does this list look like?
You've got a bunch of footslogging Troops that look like a bad version of Sisters, costing about 360 points total. Without transports you're pretty restricted to Wraithguard for Elites, unless you want to take Striking Scorpions (which are really just slower and easier to kill and more expensive versions of Assault Marines). I guess you could go to FW for Spectres although you're going to have a hard time supporting them with anything. A minimum squad is cheap, at least. So let's call that 400 points of Elites. I really have no idea what you have your eye on in Fast Attack. Shining Spears are maybe decent, although again it's going to be really awkward trying to use them when so much of the rest of your army is slow. Regardless, we're looking at about 300 points no matter what you pick. Heavy Support is going to be Dark Reapers or War Walkers or maybe Wraithlords. Dark Reapers seem like the best choice given how much other footslogging infantry we're looking at, for another ~300 points. And then another 300 for a Farseer, an Autarch (probably a Skyrunner), and a Warlock to sit in the middle of all the DAs or a Warlock Skyrunner to go along with Spectres or Spears. That's 1700 points, so that's basically the army. You could afford to bring in some Fire Dragons in a Serpent or buy Serpents for some Wraithguard, although this will still be a bit awkward since you'll leave all your Avengers behind. Your best bet may be to take fast, min units everywhere except Troops and HS and then get 2 Serpents for 4 squads of Avengers, probably starting the game with the Dark Reapers in the Serpents and swapping out on turn 1.
I don't think this would be terrible. But it's obviously very constrained, and it's not like it's looking particularly great. Things really don't get much better if we bring in Dark Eldar and Harlequins, although Trueborn, Scourges, and Ravagers are tempting.
Meanwhile, what are other factions doing?
Space Marines are taking Guilliman and a Battalion for well under 1000 points. They've already got 9 CP and a Warlord Trait that's effectively +50% CP. Ultramarines do it best but lots of other Chapters have ways to generate extra CP, and they also lend themselves better to transport-less armies that fill out detachments.
Guard can similarly take 6 infantry squads as Troops, except theirs have lascannons and are more durable. Scion/Elysian Command Squads are no-brainer Elite choices, and Ratlings are also excellent. Mortar Squads are cheap and very good Heavy Support. Aside from Fast Attack, they've got a Brigade full of units they're very happy to take for maybe 800 points. Fast Attack can be Rough Riders or Sentinels or Hellhounds, which are all perfectly good units depending on the rest of the list. And of course things like Conscripts and Manticores are pretty good too.
If Imperial Soup is allowed then this just gets silly. You can fill out a Brigade very cheaply while using only very powerful units. But even without creating mixed detachments you can take a pure Guard detachment as above in order to feed CP to a Battalion of something else. My typical Guard and Sisters lists have 14 or 15 CP, and I really never feel like I'm having to make significant sacrifices to get there.
I'm not sure what overall shape Chaos is in but many Legions are clearly encouraged to take cult Troops, and Abaddon now gives bonus CP (and appears to be a very appealing pick). As with Imperium armies, you could also put together cheap Daemon detachments to generate CP for CSM stratagems.
It's true that some other Xenos are also in pretty bad shape here. Necrons in particular really struggle to have more than 7 CP, and will often just have a single Battalion.
Welp it looks like GW is closely following NOVA this year and my bet is ... we will see Mag+Knights and Guard in the top lists. And shortly after GW will put out an FAQ that nerfs them both somehow. We have seen it done to the Raven spam, they can do it again.
My typical lists are 4-6 CPs. Depending on what I am running. I don't see how you could break out a brigade without really dropping the size of your units to min squads. Which is a balance between filling out your required slots and making your limited psychic buffs the most effective.
Without a codex we have ZERO incentive to bring more than a Battalions worth of command dice.
I am also super curious if Ynnari will gain any benefit like tactic. The last FAQ that required a Triumverate HQ choice makes it impossible to take Ynnari and have all units fall into the <craftworld> etc, because they HQs will not.
Grizzyzz wrote: Welp it looks like GW is closely following NOVA this year and my bet is ... we will see Mag+Knights and Guard in the top lists. And shortly after GW will put out an FAQ that nerfs them both somehow. We have seen it done to the Raven spam, they can do it again.
My typical lists are 4-6 CPs. Depending on what I am running. I don't see how you could break out a brigade without really dropping the size of your units to min squads. Which is a balance between filling out your required slots and making your limited psychic buffs the most effective.
Without a codex we have ZERO incentive to bring more than a Battalions worth of command dice.
I am also super curious if Ynnari will gain any benefit like tactic. The last FAQ that required a Triumverate HQ choice makes it impossible to take Ynnari and have all units fall into the <craftworld> etc, because they HQs will not.
I hope Ynnari will get access to a few Stratagems, even if they are fewer or more limited than for pure Aeldari. I understand CWE and Drukkari need some incentives to be played as pure armies. But it can be done without leaving Ynnari as a bland, tool-less army compared to the test of the 8th forces.
No idea when any of the Eldar codices will be yet. I have seen a leaked release schedule for the rest of the year and our Codex is not on it. Assuming the leak is geniune (and that is not guaranteed) we will have to wait until 2018.
No indication yet of whether we will be bundled or not. My hunch is that they will be separate and that Ynnari will remain as just an Index list since it only has 3 models of its own.
admironheart wrote: well I put my striking scorpions away for this edition and am using all my howling banshees in every game. My opponent hates that his charge units gets interrupted during the fight phase. Between my Autarch and twin Banshee units. I get to deal some damage on my opponents during their turn and they turn everything on the Banshees.
A nice distraction for 2 units of 80 points each.
I'm curious as to what is happening here. You know that charging units and always strike first units cancel each other out right? And if the Banshees are getting charged then your opponent is the active player which means they get to go first (aka dead Banshees).
I also don't understand how small units of Banshees are actually making it to combat, 5 Banshees charging something like a Tactical Squad (in some mysterious universe where people actually use those) lose over half the squad from Overwatch + melee. I have also yet to see a combat last more than 1 round in this edition, either one side dies in the combat or the unit that got charged backs out of combat so that every other unit in the army is able to support it.
I haven't tried Banshees yet but my impression is they would need a large squad and Doom to make damage stick. Adding Jain Zarr to counter Overwatch is a possibility but an expensive one.
By the time you have stacked that all up, you would probably be better off with a squad of Wraithblades. More wounds, S6/7, T5 and a 3+ save
I have used Banshees twice so far. Both times it was a unit of 10. I was pleasantly surprised, on both occasions they wiped out their intended target. 1st was a unit of Doomed Thousand sons that had about 6-7 left when the Banshees charged, second was a unit of 10 Tesla Immortals. I think they used SfD to attack twice to finish off the Teslas, who were also doomed. Both times they got shot off the board immediately afterwards.
They are by no means amazing but they do actually work now, which is a nice change.
Wraithblades with swords are flat out better, which is a problem a lot of aspects have now.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Wraithblades with swords are flat out better, which is a problem a lot of aspects have now.
Totally agree with this. Aspects are meant to be a precision tool to accomplish a specific task. A few are still doing this well (Fire Dragons for armoured targets for examples), but the majority are straight up outclassed by other units.
Hawks should be ultra mobile, anti-hoard and precision strikes
Scorpions should be durable, elite-killers
Banshees should be a whirlwind of power sword death
Fire dragons the bain of armour
Dark Reapers, a versatile ranged threat an opponent cannot afford to ignore
Warp Spider ... ... poor, poor Warp Spiders :(
Karhedron wrote: My hunch is that they will be separate and that Ynnari will remain as just an Index list since it only has 3 models of its own.
That would be awful. "Just because you chose to buy those awesome models to be the center of a force which should be expected to be the future of Eldar (according to Gathering Storm) you are trapped into using the piss poor stop gap Index list the whole edition. Kthanxbye"
That is just speculation on my part. I just cannot see them rolling all 3 Eldar factions into a single codex, especially when they will want to add Stratagems and possibly even sub-factions to represent things like Swordwinds, Wraithhosts etc.
Ynnari are not a standalone faction. They are 3 characters that represent a fluffy way of bolting the existing factions together. Maybe I am wrong and GW will surprise us but I can't quite see how else they could do it.
I think that is very unlikely. From everything we've seen lately in how GW has been releasing books and armies in both 40k and Sigmar the better bet is 4 books for Aeldari.
We'll get a Craftworlds book with "chapter tactics" for the big craftworlds, and a Dark Eldar book with the same for the cults/covens/kabals. Think of Ynnari more like blood angels or dark angels. They'll have less variety as SfD will be their "craftworld tactic" but I'd expect 2-4 Ynnari only kits/units and then the ability to grab from the other books. Harlequins are more like genestealer cults, a stand alone that can be used with the rest or solo.
As to release date, who knows, but it would be break from trend to not have Eldar in the first wave (of 10) with a new edition.
1. List the Ynnari characters and strategems in both the Dark Eldar and Craftworlds books.
2. Make a very small book for Ynnari, one that requires the other codexes, or a very big one with units an Ynnari faction can take from the other two books.
I'd like to see 3 Aeldari books:
-Craftworlds
-Drukhari
-Harlequins & Ynnari
Neither Harlies nor Ynnari have enough units on their own to merit a stand-alone codex. But they both work very heavily alongside CWE & DE, so putting them together makes sense. It would also be about as much content as either the CWE or DE Codices
Galef wrote: I'd like to see 3 Aeldari books:
-Craftworlds
-Drukhari
-Harlequins & Ynnari
Neither Harlies nor Ynnari have enough units on their own to merit a stand-alone codex. But they both work very heavily alongside CWE & DE, so putting them together makes sense. It would also be about as much content as either the CWE or DE Codices
-
I'll second that. Ynnari + Harlies would be just enough material to make the book worth printing.
Icing on the cake would be giving us new Harlequin and Ynnari units. A Cegorach Avatar and a Death Cult aspect.
admironheart wrote: well I put my striking scorpions away for this edition and am using all my howling banshees in every game. My opponent hates that his charge units gets interrupted during the fight phase. Between my Autarch and twin Banshee units. I get to deal some damage on my opponents during their turn and they turn everything on the Banshees.
A nice distraction for 2 units of 80 points each.
I'm curious as to what is happening here. You know that charging units and always strike first units cancel each other out right? And if the Banshees are getting charged then your opponent is the active player which means they get to go first (aka dead Banshees).
I also don't understand how small units of Banshees are actually making it to combat, 5 Banshees charging something like a Tactical Squad (in some mysterious universe where people actually use those) lose over half the squad from Overwatch + melee. I have also yet to see a combat last more than 1 round in this edition, either one side dies in the combat or the unit that got charged backs out of combat so that every other unit in the army is able to support it.
Well my opponents have been Tyranids or black Templars and they want to stay in hth.
My Wave Serpents drop off my assault units. Fire Dragons, Avengers and Wraithguard back them up. Normally I have Autarch with Banshee mask and warlocks in there too....perhaps a Farseer.
So after I attack and the consolidation and such...it is the opponents turn. They stay in hth. A unit like a captain or a hive tyrant attacks. Perhaps the Farseer is a target. Then one unit of Banshees attack, Then the Crusaders or the Tyrant Guard attack and then the Other unit of Banshees or the Autarch attack, followed up with their supporting units, etc..
The thing is the Banshees are a prick that gets their attention. They always die. But when the dust clears the Fire Dragons and Wraithguard make sure nothing is left on my next turn.
Galef wrote: I'd like to see 3 Aeldari books:
-Craftworlds
-Drukhari
-Harlequins & Ynnari
Neither Harlies nor Ynnari have enough units on their own to merit a stand-alone codex. But they both work very heavily alongside CWE & DE, so putting them together makes sense. It would also be about as much content as either the CWE or DE Codices
-
I'll second that. Ynnari + Harlies would be just enough material to make the book worth printing.
Icing on the cake would be giving us new Harlequin and Ynnari units. A Cegorach Avatar and a Death Cult aspect.
That sounds nice! Both likely and with a little luck, also satisfying. We need new units, even if only two ir three.
I also don't understand how small units of Banshees are actually making it to combat, 5 Banshees charging something like a Tactical Squad (in some mysterious universe where people actually use those) lose over half the squad from Overwatch + melee. I have also yet to see a combat last more than 1 round in this edition, either one side dies in the combat or the unit that got charged backs out of combat so that every other unit in the army is able to support it.
If you have Jain Zar, then overwatch isn't an issue.
But even without Jain Zar, as mentioned elsewhere, in this thread, you charge the wave serpent in *first.* The serpent eats the overwatch, then the banshees follow.
Then I think the assumption here is that most of these armies are Ynnari, so when the opponent backs out of combat, you use a soulburst to charge the banshees back in during the opponent's turn. Non-flying enemies aren't usually falling back more than about 6", and with the banshee 3" charge bonus, it's hard to botch the charge.
Too lazy to translate reports, but important points are 1) list like that excels at killing elites 2) it's poor against hordes, but team tournament means it's possible to avoid these pairings - and it's not like Eldar have reliable way to deal with hordes anyway.
The games were: German Ynnari with reapers/dragons (win), Turkey Tau (Commanders + 80 drones) (win), Poland Ravenwing planes (win), Denmark Azrail/Devastators/Razorbacks (win, wipe out turn 3), Sweden Scions+Ratlings (win), France Blood Angels 4 Storm Ravens (also win).
Aside from shocking effect of just banshees existing in the tournament list, as enemy brain gets turned into goo from elvish maidens screaming, it also proves eldar superiority in the air over many enemies.
Also, would there be any value in giving one a Reaper Launcher?
Definitely, if you are looking for someone to buff your backfield units like Reapers, Support batteries etc, the Reaper launcher is a good choice as it allows him to add some significant firepower. How many HQs can take a missile launcher? Even if he moves, he is still as good as a Reaper.
If you have him up front I would rather choose a fusion gun but Reaper Launcher is still pretty sold.
Also, would there be any value in giving one a Reaper Launcher?
Definitely, if you are looking for someone to buff your backfield units like Reapers, Support batteries etc, the Reaper launcher is a good choice as it allows him to add some significant firepower. How many HQs can take a missile launcher? Even if he moves, he is still as good as a Reaper.
If you have him up front I would rather choose a fusion gun but Reaper Launcher is still pretty sold.
To be honest, I was considering taking him in an otherwise pure-DE list (he's the closest I can get to a winged Archon). I was going to convert one out of a Scourge and run him with a unit of them as a sort of Scourge-Lord.
Unfortunately, Scourges have 18" range Blasters, which don't really mesh well with most of the Autarch's weapons.
I have the option to trade for some eldar and am wondering if it seems worth it. I have started going back to find out what is good and bad since I have not played with or against them in 8th. Some insight would speed things up.
Here are the models, from what I have read scorpions, wraightknights, rangers and windriders are bad. Is the rest workable into a decent list or should I skip? I have a bunch of extra orks that I could trade so not costing me anything but I am not sure on waiting to gamble on the codex improving bad stuff.
Farseer
Farseer on jetbike
Eldrad Ulthran
3 Warlocks
22 Guardians
2 Heavy Weapon platforms
10 Rangers
13 Windrider Guardians
11 Fire Dragons
10 Striking Scorpions
5 Shining Spears
2 Warwalkers
6 Dark Reapers
Wraithknight
2 Wave Serpents
I think those are solid models. The only bad thing in that list are scorpions sadly (which are still my favorite aspects fluffwise and lovely models) and the WK (overcosted). Anything else can be made to work. A bargain considering retail prices of the characters...
Who is saying Striking Scorpions are bad? Deploy them into cover and they have 2+ save and can provide a distraction, min squad with Biting Blade is 105pts requires a good amount of fire to remove or risk being charged by them next turn, charging from cover they get 2+ save too
