I have a large number of Eldar Flyers - 3 Crimson Hunters (2 of them exarchs), a Hemlock, 3 Phoenixes, a Vampire and a DE Razorwing. Any weapon options are magnetized (including the pulsars on the Vampire to use it as a Raider or Hunter). Would a flyer-heavy airforce be doable? Losing jink and snapshots hurt all flyers. I've toyed with at least 70% airforce in a 2000 point army, with the rest being objective grabbers. How feasible would this be?
An Air Wing of Crimson Hunters would be excellent anti-tank up to 2000 pts, and Air Wing of Hemlocks is a very threatening thing to face. However, I think including more than 6 flyers would be an overkill, as you will struggle against large infantry armies. You won't be able to grab objectives from them since by new rules the objective is held by player who has more models on the objective.
I'm a fan. 18 S6 AP-3 2 damage shots per turn will put the hurt on anything. Even moreso with psyker support.
How survivable for the points though?
Woah need to slow this down.
First should note that the cost of a pulse hornet is a whopping 150 pts assuming you add the targeting matrix (which note, only works if its the closest enemy unit). Otherwise.. every weapon option except for shurikan cannons, is a heavy weapon.. so you are hitting on 4+ when you move. And further.. if you advance to activate your ability.. you can't shoot at all! So this single hornet is tossing 6 shots.. with 3 hits. s6.. so against other transports.. heck lets say another hornet.. your doing 1-2 wounds.. they will get atleast a 6+ save.. so you are going to do about 2-4 damage. That is not that great...
The 18 shots... that is 450 points you are talking about. 2 hemlocks put out better firepower at the 2D level and cost 422.
I love hornets.. amazing models.. very disappointed in the cost of the pulse simply because of the rage of 7ed. I am going to try running Shurikan hornets as a tankier alternative to windriders. they clock in at a 109 pts.. which is not too expensive for what you are getting when compared to vypers and windriders.
my 2cents of course. I hope they prove better than I see them on paper!
xmbk wrote: What page does it say you only pay for the models in an understrength unit? Thanks.
On all the indices under BattleForged Armies. I think Xenos1 is page 108 and page 198 on Imperium 1
Automatically Appended Next Post: Those are rules ONLY for BattleForged Armies IN a Matched Play game...Not in Narrative/Historical or certain Missions. So you have to be bound by Matched Play rules (ie pskers)
I'm stuck between a few variations of 1 list and would really appreciate some help. The only model I have assembled is the vampire hunter but I own 9 unbuilt bikes and an unbuilt bikeseer
Also comes out to 2000 flat has the weakest hq in terms of buffs and fighting strongest flier combination I think.
All lists give the same 5 command points. I'm not sure how valuable a farseer is doom seems great for the bikes and while I would like to guide the vampire I want to be moving him 45" a turn to get the 4++ so it could be very hard to do so.
I feel the main contenders are list 1 and list 4. 1 brings I think the most anti horde but I pay a lot for the troops. 4 brings probably better all around fliers with a lot of the nice starcannons to boot, better vs elite infantry but weaker vs a horde.
What would be the better choice as all I have left to buy are the non super heavy fliers for either list.
As such, I am looking to put together an Eldar Armylist of about 500pts to start before purchasing any minis.
I've combed through this thread, and come to the conclusion of the following;
1) The current Eldar Start Collecting! set is not very good in 8th Edition.
2) I need Wave Serpents.
As such; I've put together the following rough list, but I am still missing a few points and I would appreciate any feedback you can give me as to how to fill up the remaining points.
The start collecting box is still fine. Windrinders are still good just not omg amazing. The Fire prism can be made into a nightspinner which is quite good in this edition. And farseers are great.
From your initial list you can always just upgrade one of the guardian units to one of the aspects you like and throw it in the wave serpent. Or drop the second guardian squad and take a night spinner? Might need some more points for that tho.
I've combed through this thread, and come to the conclusion of the following;
1) The current Eldar Start Collecting! set is not very good in 8th Edition.
2) I need Wave Serpents.
3) Wraithguard of all flavours rock!
3 wounds a piece behind T5 and a 3+ save makes them hard to shift without the kind of firepower that your opponent would normally rather be aiming at your grav tanks. I prefer D-Scythes over Wraithcannons as they are more flexible. They are almost as good against large targets and far better against infantry. The Overwatch from D-scythes is terrifying and often enough to stop people charging you in the first place. Wraithguard are also "Implacable" meaning they can withdraw from combat and still shoot at full effect which is awesome given their guns.
Wraithblades are pretty tasty too. Swords will chop through multiple targets while the axe/shield unit almost rival TH/SS Terminators.
This however only puts me at about 416 pts, and I would appreciate any suggestions as to how to fill the last 84 points.
War Walkers are really nice. 6 Wounds behind T6 and a 4+/5++ save is great. Add in Battle Focus which is handy on the Shuricannon version and they are very fast.
A War walker with 2 Shuricannons comes to 85 points annoyingly. I can't see any way to trim off the extra point unless you downgrade your Farseer to an Autarch.
I have found so far that Guardians are good if you give them a Shuricannon and micromanage their movement. Get in just the right place at the right time to really get in someone's face.
Titanicus wrote:I'm stuck between a few variations of 1 list and would really appreciate some help....
So straight up i can tell you love your airforce, which is cool. Keep in mind though that, it is going to be incredibly difficult to win objective games with units that cannot stick to one location, and are somewhat limited in movement. @2k points I think having 2 flyers is probably a good amount, and 3 is probably ok. If you bring a vampire raider, i would almost consider that be your only flyer, and round out the rest of you list.
I know that doesn't answer your question of which list below is best, but hopefully it helps to some degree.
Kakutodani wrote:Hello all, I am looking to start Warhammer 40k with Eldar....
I really like the start collecting box. I think that is probalby one of the best values when starting an eldar army. Both the nightspinner and fire prism are great. Both slightly different tools in the toolbox. If that is where you are looking to start. You can basically fill out 450 points easy (Seer, 3 bikes, Prism) depending on upgrades. Getting that extra few points could be as easy as buying another box for another bike.
If you are looking for a more footslogging force. Guardians are great as others have said. and to fill out the list you constructed, you could add some weapons platforms to fill those couple extra points left. Addtionally I would consider dropping the serpant and running a Fire prism or Nightspinner, heck maybe even Falcon. Just to increase your high damage weapon output.
Welcome to the club, and this edition is a great place to start Eldar, because we finally aren't the bring eldar to win army like we used to be (albeit still strong!)
Selym wrote: The Fire Prism is one of the Eldar's worst AT units, even Guardians do a better job if you can get them in range...
Why do you think so? The prism has a few things going for it that make it good (imo of course).
1) Range - one of the longest ranged weapons we have, it can sit in the backfield in safety and be a threat over the course of the game.
2) Flexible weapon, the multi profile makes it decent across a range of targets, which some dedicated models struggle with.
3) s12 (wounds the average transport on a 2+) ap-5 (most vehicles will not have any save, including the land raider!)
My thoughts on the subject anyway. Would love to hear what your thoughts are !
Selym wrote: I have found so far that Guardians are good if you give them a Shuricannon and micromanage their movement. Get in just the right place at the right time to really get in someone's face.
Shuriken weapons are surprisingly dangerous.
I have found them effective in my early games although these are at small points values. A Warlock with Conceal/Reveal is cheap and helps a lot. A Farseer Dooming the target will boost them even more but then the same can be said of more or less anything.
For 80 points base, they fill your Troop tax fairly painlessly and make a good cargo for a Wave Serpent. I am not convinced by weapon platforms if you are going down the mech route as they will not be able to fire a lot of the time. If you have points to spare then a Shuricannon is nice but if points are tight I would rather pimp their ride. Gaurdians on foot do well with platforms though.
Rangers also worked well in early games. My opponent was running a Gravis Captain but I still managed to plink a few wounds off him as well as shooting at regular squads in the absence of other targets. I think that Rangers are best in small games though where they can be deployed in a way to maximise their range advantage. I suspect that in larger games, they would die quite quickly.
Selym wrote: The Fire Prism is one of the Eldar's worst AT units, even Guardians do a better job if you can get them in range...
Why do you think so? The prism has a few things going for it that make it good (imo of course).
1) Range - one of the longest ranged weapons we have, it can sit in the backfield in safety and be a threat over the course of the game.
2) Flexible weapon, the multi profile makes it decent across a range of targets, which some dedicated models struggle with.
3) s12 (wounds the average transport on a 2+) ap-5 (most vehicles will not have any save, including the land raider!)
My thoughts on the subject anyway. Would love to hear what your thoughts are !
1) It doesn't matter very much that the Fire Prism can sit back in relative safety. First, just because it's one of the only units the Eldar have that can do this, you're going to have to be advancing with all of your other stuff anyway. You can't really make like Guard and use your artillery to force the enemy to come to you. So they'll just shoot your other stuff. Second, the Fire Prism has very low firepower for its cost and so the correct answer to it is just to ignore it, so having long range is not a big advantage. It's 168 points minimum for something that against most tanks is only a little better than a Lascannon, with the option to instead shoot something that's somewhat worse than two Starcannons against single-wound models.
2) I've not done the math but I bet that a twin Starcannon Serpent matches or beats it against basically everything, while being a lot more durable, and that's not even a very good Serpent build. The Prism Cannon's Lance mode will almost never offer a significant benefit over the Focused mode, except I guess against Wave Serpents, and the Focused mode is only ever just as good as a twin Starcannon against T7 and T8. The Dispersed mode is just worse than a twin Starcannon against everything, and much worse against multi-wound models.
3) Just to be clear, the Lance mode is only 5% better than the Focused mode against a Land Raider and 13% worse against a Razorback. It's true that it's 10% better against T6 3+, which is starting to look noticeable. The only thing that really seems to justify its existence as a separate profile is its performance against T6 2+ with no invulnerable save (about 30% better).
So basically: Why not just bring a Crimson Hunter, which is better against basically anything, can move and shoot at 3+ from 36" (although it's competitive with the Prism against many targets even at 48"), re-rolls wounds against flyers, and is as or more durable except against BS3+ S6?
I would agree that the Fire Prism is pants. But the Night Spinner seems really good. Ideal against light vehicles and 2w models but decent against pretty much everything.
Dionysodorus wrote: 2) I've not done the math but I bet that a twin Starcannon Serpent matches or beats it against basically everything, while being a lot more durable, and that's not even a very good Serpent build. The Prism Cannon's Lance mode will almost never offer a significant benefit over the Focused mode, except I guess against Wave Serpents, and the Focused mode is only ever just as good as a twin Starcannon against T7 and T8. The Dispersed mode is just worse than a twin Starcannon against everything, and much worse against multi-wound models.
Twin Starcannon does, in fact, beat all Prism Cannon modes. Though I'd argue based on those listings Twin Starcannon is a good Serpent build if the Wave Serpent is going for T5+.
Yeah saw that chart before, pretty awesome work. I wish he did more with BS modifiers to see the effect on some of the shorter range heavy weapons.
@Dionysodorus - All good points mate. starcannon is finally a solid weapon. and the serpent being such a cheap platform for what you get seems to be the fallback answer on just about everything. When in doubt take a twin star serpent. ... probably shouldnt be the case. I recall when the leaks came out their was a large debate on the cost of the serpent being a typo 107 -> 170 (i disagree.. but i do feel the serpent is a little on the cheap side)
War Walkers are really nice. 6 Wounds behind T6 and a 4+/5++ save is great. Add in Battle Focus which is handy on the Shuricannon version and they are very fast.
A War walker with 2 Shuricannons comes to 85 points annoyingly. I can't see any way to trim off the extra point unless you downgrade your Farseer to an Autarch.
War walkers are a weird spot in the list. Yes, the invulnerable save is nice, and a single one as an 80-90 point filler isn't terrible.
But... sadly in numbers they (and vipers, which are worse about this) lose out mathematically to wave serpents. 3 war walkers with Shuricannons are less than 30 points from 2 wave serpents with a trio of Shuricannons, so same amount of firepower, lower toughness, lower save, much fewer wounds, and no serpent shield, and the serpents are effectively slotless, given the way transports work.
Given the weapon options, the 8th ed. answer to Vypers, Warwalkers, Falcons, Fire prisms and possibly even Night Spinners* is effectively 'Why not wave serpent(s)?'
*though granted twin missile launchers are much lower strength than doomweavers in sunburst mode. The math of twin starshot vs Doomweaver is potentially interesting though.
First should note that the cost of a pulse hornet is a whopping 150 pts assuming you add the targeting matrix (which note, only works if its the closest enemy unit). Otherwise.. every weapon option except for shurikan cannons, is a heavy weapon.. so you are hitting on 4+ when you move. And further.. if you advance to activate your ability.. you can't shoot at all! So this single hornet is tossing 6 shots.. with 3 hits. s6.. so against other transports.. heck lets say another hornet.. your doing 1-2 wounds.. they will get atleast a 6+ save.. so you are going to do about 2-4 damage. That is not that great...
The 18 shots... that is 450 points you are talking about. 2 hemlocks put out better firepower at the 2D level and cost 422.
I love hornets.. amazing models.. very disappointed in the cost of the pulse simply because of the rage of 7ed. I am going to try running Shurikan hornets as a tankier alternative to windriders. they clock in at a 109 pts.. which is not too expensive for what you are getting when compared to vypers and windriders.
my 2cents of course. I hope they prove better than I see them on paper!
I'm aware of the point cost. I like to field 3 hornets at 150 points each. They've been very solid for me so far. I've tested them in-game against a number of different targets (generally with farseer support), and they generally erase whatever they shoot at in a single salvo. Far as I can tell, the only thing they actually struggle to kill is wave serpents. ... even with both Guide and Doom, the best I've been able to do to a Wave Serpent with a hornet squadron was 8 damage in one salvo. Stupid Serpent Shield.
I'm aware of the point cost. I like to field 3 hornets at 150 points each. They've been very solid for me so far. I've tested them in-game against a number of different targets (generally with farseer support), and they generally erase whatever they shoot at in a single salvo. Far as I can tell, the only thing they actually struggle to kill is wave serpents. ... even with both Guide and Doom, the best I've been able to do to a Wave Serpent with a hornet squadron was 8 damage in one salvo. Stupid Serpent Shield.
Well, it's already 450 points and you're talking about adding another 120-160 in Farseer. So you're firing 600 points at one unit.
Even still, they can't possibly kill 20 Genestealers or 30 orks, which are less than half the price. Maybe you only play against marines.
It's certainly expensive. But that's not really a valid comparison. 500 points of bright lances will never kill 500 points of ork boyz. Points, and points per damage are great tools to estimate the strength of a unit but you can't hold up an AT weapon against it's obvious weakness and say it's not worth it. Of course it won't measure up. It is valid to say you're paying a lot for a unit that will struggle against horde lists without vehicles but removing those targets is exactly the strength of more focused lists; just like a mech list would render anti-horde weapons ineffective.
Is the unit probably too expensive for what you get? Yes. But you could certainly build a list around it and wiping a unit or big vehicle a turn is definitely a strength.
One of the draws of the war walkers is for engaging a shooty threat first turn. With it's scout move it isn't too difficult for them to move shoot and charge something first turn. With toughness 6 and 4+/5+ they are fairly survivable in combat and can easily lock up a shooty unit or tank for a turn. Then can either fall back and shoot with soulburst are just stay in combat. It's not a cheap option but if you can stop a big shooting threat from shooting even for a turn it can be invaluable.
My War Walkers have never died. My opponent tonight put a big hurt on them, but then had to focus on my Wave Serpent cargo and they were left alive again.
My opponent still states that 8th ed a unit of war walkers move and act independently and thus I cannont Guide or Fortune the 3 of them>???? I think this is incorrect. From what I read they must stay within 2" (he still thinks vehicles have 6" coherence) Is he wrong?
anyways He managed to kill 1 serpent each round. But He had to throw most of his army at them. SPIRIT stones ROCK.
Dark Reapers are great vs jet/flyers.
2nd game that I had to deal with a Vindicare. They never kill their points value but are very annoying. I think Rangers would be the perfect unit to use to take out that type of assassin>?
I find the bubblewrap of the Autarch and a Spiritseer to be wasted in a Wraith Army since they duplicate too much.
Even still, they can't possibly kill 20 Genestealers or 30 orks, which are less than half the price. Maybe you only play against marines.
*shrugs*
I haven't played Orks yet this edition, but Genestealers haven't given me any trouble. I've played eight games of 8th edition so far. Two of those games were against Tyranids, both of whom fielded Genestealers. Two games were against Marines. Two were against Tau, one against Dark Eldar, and the most recent against another Craftworld Eldar player. I haven't lost yet.
As far as I can see the war walkers are a unit of 3.
The other units of vehicles where they act independently state that explicitly in the rules. Vypers and war walkers do not.
War walkers are a weird spot in the list. Yes, the invulnerable save is nice, and a single one as an 80-90 point filler isn't terrible.
But... sadly in numbers they (and vipers, which are worse about this) lose out mathematically to wave serpents. 3 war walkers with Shuricannons are less than 30 points from 2 wave serpents with a trio of Shuricannons, so same amount of firepower, lower toughness, lower save, much fewer wounds, and no serpent shield, and the serpents are effectively slotless, given the way transports work.
Given the weapon options, the 8th ed. answer to Vypers, Warwalkers, Falcons, Fire prisms and possibly even Night Spinners* is effectively 'Why not wave serpent(s)?'
*though granted twin missile launchers are much lower strength than doomweavers in sunburst mode. The math of twin starshot vs Doomweaver is potentially interesting though.
I think the Night spinner still pulls it's weight vs the Wave Serpent and is worth taking. With War Walkers you have to factor in Psychic powers, Guide and WotP are much more effective cast on a unit of 3 walkers than on 1 Serpent.
Both are good points. My night spinner has proven effective so far and think they are a good against a variety of targets.
And eldar psychic definitely needs to be factored in when assessing choices made (unless you aren't running it which is shooting yourself in the foot imo). It is becoming increasingly obvious from my games that while in a vacuum the eldar units are generally overcosted and underpowered they start to be well worth their points once the psychic synergy is taken into account.
I'm intending to run my serpents with tri-shurican, vectored engines and spirit stones. I'll reserve heavy weapons for units that might actually stand still like wraithlords in a counterassault role. This seems to amplify the role - tanky and mobile transport - while keeping a good amount of firepower. Now try to convince me to keep my brightlance turrets
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Maybe they were costed with the buffs in mind. I find it hard not to include Eldrad, Yvraine and a Warlock in most lists.
I've heard that a Wraithknight does not compare favorably with the Imperial Knight, but with fortune, Guide and WotP it gets ridiculous.
This is exactly right. I feel more and more that the eldar tax is amazing psychic tax.
It is just a pity that it kind of forces you to include at least 2 of the above 3 though in your army.
Doesn't bother me as I have been an eldrad fanboy since day 1 and can probably count the lists I've written on 1 hand that don't include him.
Cpt. Icanus wrote: I'm intending to run my serpents with tri-shurican, vectored engines and spirit stones.
I just want to make sure I understand correctly about Vectored Engines. Since the WS does not have Battle Focus, it gets the -1BS Penalty if it advances and fires its shuricannons. Now it benefits from a -1 to hit vs incoming fire but if you are facing a BS3+ opponent, that seems like 10 points for an advantage that is cancelled out by the penalty.
I suppose it is worth it against IG or Orks where a -1BS reduces their hits by a bigger percentage than yours but overall I am not entirely convinced.
Marsyas wrote:
I'm aware of the point cost. I like to field 3 hornets at 150 points each. They've been very solid for me so far. I've tested them in-game against a number of different targets (generally with farseer support), and they generally erase whatever they shoot at in a single salvo. Far as I can tell, the only thing they actually struggle to kill is wave serpents. ... even with both Guide and Doom, the best I've been able to do to a Wave Serpent with a hornet squadron was 8 damage in one salvo. Stupid Serpent Shield.
Very cool man. I only own 2 hornets myself but I plan on running them in some upcoming games to see what they can handle. The more I theoryhammer them, the more i like them. They are more durible than WW and vypers, not nearly as tanky as a falcon or serpant, albeit they dont have any damage falloff. They are full strength until they are gone. They are this like middle ground between a light skimmer and a heavy tank. It is still weird to me that the hornet pulse has such large range for such a small light tank. *shrug* still one of my favorite models.
Did you run them with any upgrades like crystals? vector engines?
Am I crazy to think if you added vector engines and advanced they have -2 to hit? I was thinking about this last night, and if you ran them with Shurikan cannons, and vector engines, they sit at 119 points and are legitimately hard as nails with a -2 to hit.
Cpt. Icanus wrote: I'm intending to run my serpents with tri-shurican, vectored engines and spirit stones.
I just want to make sure I understand correctly about Vectored Engines. Since the WS does not have Battle Focus, it gets the -1BS Penalty if it advances and fires its shuricannons. Now it benefits from a -1 to hit vs incoming fire but if you are facing a BS3+ opponent, that seems like 10 points for an advantage that is cancelled out by the penalty.
I suppose it is worth it against IG or Orks where a -1BS reduces their hits by a bigger percentage than yours but overall I am not entirely convinced.
Nothing has battle focus because everything has SfD lol. If you are mainly using the Serpents to as transports the -1 to enemies is worth it, if you want them as gun boats you're better not advancing.
As such, I am looking to put together an Eldar Armylist of about 500pts to start before purchasing any minis.
I've combed through this thread, and come to the conclusion of the following;
1) The current Eldar Start Collecting! set is not very good in 8th Edition.
2) I need Wave Serpents.
As such; I've put together the following rough list, but I am still missing a few points and I would appreciate any feedback you can give me as to how to fill up the remaining points.
This however only puts me at about 416 pts, and I would appreciate any suggestions as to how to fill the last 84 points.
Thank you very much.
Wave Serpents are definitely nice, but it's definitely not true that you need them. The Skyrunner Farseer is worth the points. His mobility is important for sniping with Smite. Unfortunately, mounting him and adding a Warlock is 85 points. Proxy the Serpent as twin Cannon and twin Catapults, saves you 2 points.
So Im running heavy on dark reapers and I wanted to get some clarification on how there Tempest Launcher worked.
Tempest Launcher
"This weapon can target units that are not visible to the bearer"
Character
"A character can only be chosen as a target if they are the closest visible enemy unit to the model that is shooting"
Does this mean they can fire on characters if they are hidden behind a wall? Or are they saying the closest visible unit from players perspective. I thought it was interesting cause that would make reapers even more versatile.
deathdancer wrote: So Im running heavy on dark reapers and I wanted to get some clarification on how there Tempest Launcher worked.
Tempest Launcher
"This weapon can target units that are not visible to the bearer"
Character
"A character can only be chosen as a target if they are the closest visible enemy unit to the model that is shooting"
Does this mean they can fire on characters if they are hidden behind a wall? Or are they saying the closest visible unit from players perspective. I thought it was interesting cause that would make reapers even more versatile.
I would say that the TL rule in effect just makes everyone visible, regardless of intervening terrain. So unless the character was physically the closest, no.
deathdancer wrote: So Im running heavy on dark reapers and I wanted to get some clarification on how there Tempest Launcher worked.
Tempest Launcher
"This weapon can target units that are not visible to the bearer"
Character
"A character can only be chosen as a target if they are the closest visible enemy unit to the model that is shooting"
Does this mean they can fire on characters if they are hidden behind a wall? Or are they saying the closest visible unit from players perspective. I thought it was interesting cause that would make reapers even more versatile.
#1 you can fire at any units out of line of sight neat!
#2 a character has to be the closest model that can be targeted that is not out of line of sight. So lets use another weapon.. shurican variety.. if a character is behind a unit of marines.. you cant shoot him.. if he is behind those marines.. but because of terrain you can't see the marines, and he is the next closest .. you CAN shoot him.
---
Now.. dark reapers... Technically the restriction on shooting the character is resolved as you may target him, regardless of their guns firing out of line of sight... but i can see some people arguing that because they can shoot out of line of sight.. the marines behind cover are valid targets and thus would prevent the character from getting shot. Blarg i would allow it based on how the character rule is worded.
Grizzyzz wrote: if he is behind those marines.. but because of terrain you can't see the marines, and he is the next closest .. you CAN shoot him.
That's not correct due to FAQ. If there is a closer unit physically to a character, even if you can't see it, you still can't target character.
Reapers absolutely can target a character behind a wall, but there must not be any other enemy units closer to reapers at that moment.
Kakutodani wrote: I've combed through this thread, and come to the conclusion of the following;
1) The current Eldar Start Collecting! set is not very good in 8th Edition.
2) I need Wave Serpents.
I'd recommend first coming up with a concept of an army. Choose your favorite Craftworld and possibly playing style. You don't want to end up with units that might be effective, but boring to play.
Grizzyzz wrote: if he is behind those marines.. but because of terrain you can't see the marines, and he is the next closest .. you CAN shoot him.
That's not correct due to FAQ. If there is a closer unit physically to a character, even if you can't see it, you still can't target character.
Reapers absolutely can target a character behind a wall, but there must not be any other enemy units closer to reapers at that moment.
Kakutodani wrote: I've combed through this thread, and come to the conclusion of the following;
1) The current Eldar Start Collecting! set is not very good in 8th Edition.
2) I need Wave Serpents.
I'd recommend first coming up with a concept of an army. Choose your favorite Craftworld and possibly playing style. You don't want to end up with units that might be effective, but boring to play.
I do not recall reading that in the FAQ? where does that come up?
*EDIT* The one thing i recall was dealing with characters in regards to closer units being in CC. Which is a totally different situation then what we were discussing. Albeit would be the same situation if that unit in cc was "not" visible, then you would still be able to target the enemy character.
Yeah, I don't see where the FAQ says that you can't target a character who is the closest visible unit if there is a closer non-visible unit.
The Tempest Launcher does not over-ride the Character rule. You still can't shoot an enemy Character unless they are the closest visible enemy unit. It is clearly intended to over-ride the general prohibition against targeting units that are not visible; it is not permission to target non-visible units regardless of other prohibitions against targeting them. For example, you can't shoot at a non-visible unit which is outside of the weapon's range.
Oops, actually I think I might be in a wrong there. FAQ spoke about closest visible units.
*EDIT* The one thing i recall was dealing with characters in regards to closer units being in CC. Which is a totally different situation then what we were discussing. Albeit would be the same situation if that unit in cc was "not" visible, then you would still be able to target the enemy character.
Yep. I'd still argue Reapers just ignore LOS and not other restrictions like shooting at Characters.
Kouzuki wrote: How are people finding the Autarch as a Force Multiplier due to its aura?
At 78pts, you can get
Autarch w/ Fusion Pistol, Power Weapon, Banshee Mask.
This provides rerolls of 1s to hit, which on mostly 3+ to hit units across the army, is pretty strong.
I've not tried it, but it would work welll with a unit of 20 guardians with two Shuricannons for grabbing/holding an objective. Something slashy for assault, something melty for hard targets and armour, and a whole lotta shurikens for everything.
Did you run them with any upgrades like crystals? vector engines?
I run them with Crystal Targeting Matrices. They would indeed be -2 to hit with vectored engines, but that would mean you couldn't shoot with them unless you were running shuriken cannons.
That's not correct due to FAQ. If there is a closer unit physically to a character, even if you can't see it, you still can't target character.
That does not occur in the FAQ. You only can't shoot characters when there are closer visible targets, even if those targets aren't legal.
Q: If a model cannot shoot at the closest visible enemy
unit for some reason (e.g. it is within 1" of one of
your units) but the next closest visible enemy unit is a
Character, can that model then target the character?
A: No.
The only way to ever target a character with a shooting attack is if it's the closest visible target.
Kouzuki wrote: Any Feedback on Shadow Spectres thus far?
They seem fragile for a gun that is so short ranged...
Welcome to Craftworld Eldar. Here's a gun that doesn't shoot as far as you can throw it.
For an actual opinion. Specters are probably the third best aspect warrior after Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers. And they are light years ahead of whatever is 4th best.
They actually get enough shots with a gun that can actually kill things. This is something Eldar lack as a whole.
They aren't as fragile as a lot of Eldar infantry.
Basically, they compare directly to Spiders. Specters have a much better gun that usually shoots further, the same defensive ability but one that doesn't kill them, a monstrously better ability to get charged (which all Eldar units will, see comment about throwing your gun).
They are only worse than Spiders in 2" of movement, and also morale (lol Eldar morale...).
1 point more is an outrageous bargain. Compared to other Eldar infantry who aren't Guardians, they are probably the most cost effective unit.
Forgive me if someone already mentioned it, but I have a couple hornets, and the fire power sounds decent, but what are their defensive stats like? Tougher than a warwalker; more wounds?
That's not correct due to FAQ. If there is a closer unit physically to a character, even if you can't see it, you still can't target character.
That does not occur in the FAQ. You only can't shoot characters when there are closer visible targets, even if those targets aren't legal.
Q: If a model cannot shoot at the closest visible enemy
unit for some reason (e.g. it is within 1" of one of
your units) but the next closest visible enemy unit is a
Character, can that model then target the character?
A: No.
The only way to ever target a character with a shooting attack is if it's the closest visible target.
What FAQ? As far as I know GW hasn't published one yet. Can you provide a link?
Have any of you guys ran nightspinners in your games?
I was looking though the index again last night, and actually stopped to read some units I 'ignored' over the past few years. They seem decent enough on paper, but ~7 shots on the average, only leads to 3-5 hits a turn.. so on and so forth..
Grizzyzz wrote: Have any of you guys ran nightspinners in your games?
I was looking though the index again last night, and actually stopped to read some units I 'ignored' over the past few years. They seem decent enough on paper, but ~7 shots on the average, only leads to 3-5 hits a turn.. so on and so forth..
They're same as most other re-designed blast weapons - overpriced and unreliable.
Kouzuki wrote: Any Feedback on Shadow Spectres thus far?
They seem fragile for a gun that is so short ranged...
Welcome to Craftworld Eldar. Here's a gun that doesn't shoot as far as you can throw it.
For an actual opinion. Specters are probably the third best aspect warrior after Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers. And they are light years ahead of whatever is 4th best.
They actually get enough shots with a gun that can actually kill things. This is something Eldar lack as a whole.
They aren't as fragile as a lot of Eldar infantry.
Basically, they compare directly to Spiders. Specters have a much better gun that usually shoots further, the same defensive ability but one that doesn't kill them, a monstrously better ability to get charged (which all Eldar units will, see comment about throwing your gun).
They are only worse than Spiders in 2" of movement, and also morale (lol Eldar morale...).
1 point more is an outrageous bargain. Compared to other Eldar infantry who aren't Guardians, they are probably the most cost effective unit.
Actually for the point cost I think they are better than dark reapers and compare equally to fire dragons in a different role.
Fire dragons can go in a WS which is a big advantage to their sure ability, but spectres also move 12 so they can move enough to stay out of line of sight if you play with enough terrain a short it should be played. Spectres also have a -1 to hit, and if you use them together with a hemlock wraithfighter, which is amazing by itself, they will have a -2 which is very good.
Also fire dragons I have come to notice that have a hard time to be within those 6" for the extra damage, and now with so many more wounds on tanks and wounding on 3, a unit of 5 will only put 2,2 wounds on a tank, so 7 damage on average. Which is not bad, but not great as that won't kill one tank in one turn compared to how it used to be.
10 specters will hit on average 14 S6 hits at -3, this is 4 wounds on a tank which is less than fire dragons (10 would do like 15 wounds) but they will chew through infantry.
If we add in a farseer, the damage of the spectres go up a lot, getting 24 hits. 8 wounds at a tank it isn't not bad, but that will destroy any infantry unit, or even 2 with split fire.
Also fire dragons I have come to notice that have a hard time to be within those 6" for the extra damage, and now with so many more wounds on tanks and wounding on 3, a unit of 5 will only put 2,2 wounds on a tank, so 7 damage on average. Which is not bad, but not great as that won't kill one tank in one turn compared to how it used to be.
The Exarch can reroll 1s to hit and the whole squad can reroll 1s to wound vs Vehicles or Monsters. So even without support, they stand a better than even chance chance of destroying a Dread or equivalent. Get them within the magic 6" and they good chance of 1-shotting a Predator-equivalent.
Having said that, I typically run my squad at 6-strong for insurance.
Grizzyzz wrote: Have any of you guys ran nightspinners in your games?
I was looking though the index again last night, and actually stopped to read some units I 'ignored' over the past few years. They seem decent enough on paper, but ~7 shots on the average, only leads to 3-5 hits a turn.. so on and so forth..
I've played 4-5 games with it alongside 3 WW with missiles and an autarch to support them.
I didn't had that much hopes in the Spinner, but actually he surprised me on multiple occasions, I always rolled average shots (6/7) and he is incredibly good at sniping vehicles, S7 and AP-4 on 6s with 2D a pop he does a good job. His main advantage is the no line of sight, hide him and he will accumulate damages on multiple wounds units rapidly.
Is he better than 4 reapers with Exarch and a tempest launcher (close to the same cost)? No, but he's got more chance to finish the game and thus make more damages. He finished 4 out of 5 games, whilst I won't be so much sure that a squad of reapers will be still around turn 3+
The point difference is 19 between the 2. For reference the pheonix is 19 points less than a crimson hunter.
Both have twin shuriken cannons. Nightwing has 2 bright lances but the pheonix has a pheonix pulse laser (s9 pulse laser), the pheonix also has missiles (heavyd6 s5 ap-3 dmg2 or you can take heavy2d6 s4 ap-1 dmg1 both cost the same points).
The pheonix can take twin brightlances or a twin starcannons but those up the points a lot as the pheonix pulse laser is free.
They share the same special rules except the nightwing has a 5++ and can advance 24 instead of 20 or it can change it's wings and lose the above and the -1 to hit but gains free rotation and +1 to hit vs enemies. They otherwise have all the eldar flier rules.
Stat line wise they are identical except the pheonix has 16 wounds instead of 12. And the nightwing has move 20-60 where the pheonix only has 20-50. Otherwise stats are the same as a hemlock but they have crystal targeting matrices as a compulsory upgrade.
For a Fast Attack choice (moar command points - it's easier to take 1 Flyer and 2 FA than whole AW), something packing so many weapons and so ludicrously fat (16 wounds? wat) with fairly low point cost seems like a good choice to me. Sure CTM is not BS 2+, but concidering how fat and fast Phoenix is, it can actually use it.
And missiles debuff is at least interesting enough to try out.
How much are people paying for their hemlocks? 211 or 221?
Originally battlescribe had them costing 211 not having to pay for the spirit stone upgrade as it wasn't listed in the equipment list on the hemlock. Now it has updated and is costing an extra 10 points paying for the spirit stones.
I can see why it would be both ways.
Hemlock Spirit Stones are like Autarch Forceshields, they are abilities not wargear. You dont have to pay for abilities, so you shouldn't charge yourself for Hemlock Stones.
That's how I have played it. But it is pretty weird that they give them an ability that has the same name as a piece of equipment that does the same thing. They should have just made it 10 points cheaper and given it the spirit stone equipment upgrade.
Kouzuki wrote:How are people finding the Autarch as a Force Multiplier due to its aura?
At 78pts, you can get
Autarch w/ Fusion Pistol, Power Weapon, Banshee Mask.
This provides rerolls of 1s to hit, which on mostly 3+ to hit units across the army, is pretty strong.
I'm thinking of this, currently been running one, but with a Fusion gun and Warp Spider Jump Generator. Although might build him as cheaper, on foot to buff the main blob of the army. With the left over points, i'll try and squeeze in a second warlock for drain.
I've only ran him once with the main blob (usually he rolls with 2 8man spider squads), but it was a smaller game, and he wasn't very useful(although that game was an easy win, maybe thats why).
Goobi2 wrote:Hemlock Spirit Stones are like Autarch Forceshields, they are abilities not wargear. You dont have to pay for abilities, so you shouldn't charge yourself for Hemlock Stones.
Annoyed and confused me too, last battle scribe update has sorta messed with my lists.
I've used jetautarch and with wings. While wings are cheaper and make it easier to jump to units you want to buff and jumping around table like crazy is fun (unit dies - jump into reserves, come back on your own turn) and can help with things like Linebreaker, any build of Autarch except on a bike with lance is impotent in terms of Autarch's own martial might.
I've seen Autarches on foot with Reaper launcher with squads of reapers as buffers too - a popular choice.
I think just cheapest Autarch (about 60 point difference between having Eldrad with all 3 powers (Guide) or Farseer+Autarch) might be best or go all in and make a Jet autarch for a buffer + small gunboat and character hunter. Things inbetween like sword+pistol, wings or warp jump generator don't seem worth it to me for extra points (even if god the models with wings and stuff are cool).
Time to rip off all our starcannons the new faq says they are dmg d3 now.... what the actual I don't even know. They are by far the most expensive heavy weapon and this is a massive nerf.
Vs a brightlance a starcannons has -2s -1ap (as in 1 worse) and now d3 damage versus d6. The only benefit is you gain 1 shot for 1.5x the cost.
If say a starcannons just went from best weapon to pretty trash.
Serpent shields are also now a shooting attack. For our reborn brethren word of the pheonix only works on jetbikes infantry and the yncarne.
Leman Russ and such units have the Vehicle Squadron Ability. Set up with in 6" and then act independently.
WW, Sentinels, etc do not....2" coherence at all times
Automatically Appended Next Post: Page 242 – Understrength Units
Change the second paragraph to read:
‘If you are using Power Ratings, you must still pay the
Power Rating cost as if you had a minimum-sized unit,
even though it contains fewer models. If you are using
points, you only pay the points for the models you
actually have in an understrength unit (and any wargear
they are equipped with). An understrength unit still
takes up the appropriate slot in a Detachment.’
understrength UNITS are NOW part of the game. Get used to it and start using it to build your lists. Not too hard to get a Brigade now
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ive seen a few Vindicare Assassins.
I am rethinking my use of Rangers. They normally take forever to kill anything, but going after Assassins may be a new role.
One: it may kill that vindicare that knockin your leaders
Two: they may annoy the assassin enough to draw his fire.
Heavy 1 ...he cant kill too much vs a ranger squad to make his points back
Automatically Appended Next Post: Page 242 – Understrength Units
Change the second paragraph to read:
‘If you are using Power Ratings, you must still pay the
Power Rating cost as if you had a minimum-sized unit,
even though it contains fewer models. If you are using
points, you only pay the points for the models you
actually have in an understrength unit (and any wargear
they are equipped with). An understrength unit still
takes up the appropriate slot in a Detachment.’
understrength UNITS are NOW part of the game. Get used to it and start using it to build your lists. Not too hard to get a Brigade now
So which understrength units are we considering to be worth it?
I was thinking howling banshee on a WS with d-scythes WG to charge a unit, take a couple of guys but die in the process and trigger SfD.
As for a brigade, can you take 6 solo defender guardians to achieve this? This is ridiculous
Automatically Appended Next Post: Page 242 – Understrength Units
Change the second paragraph to read:
‘If you are using Power Ratings, you must still pay the
Power Rating cost as if you had a minimum-sized unit,
even though it contains fewer models. If you are using
points, you only pay the points for the models you
actually have in an understrength unit (and any wargear
they are equipped with). An understrength unit still
takes up the appropriate slot in a Detachment.’
understrength UNITS are NOW part of the game. Get used to it and start using it to build your lists. Not too hard to get a Brigade now
So which understrength units are we considering to be worth it?
I was thinking howling banshee on a WS with d-scythes WG to charge a unit, take a couple of guys but die in the process and trigger SfD.
As for a brigade, can you take 6 solo defender guardians to achieve this? This is ridiculous
You can't do that, but if you wanted to abuse this you would still be able to fill out a brigade for much cheaper than normal. Looking at Ynnari, you can fill out your Troops with Guardians in Serpents and Troupes in Starweavers, which are strong choices that you're happy with and might be taking anyway. If you don't want to take 6 units you can add a 20 point Ranger for taking an early objective and deep strike denial, or 7 point Storm Guardians and Kabalite Warriors to fill requirements. Dire Avengers are generally terrible but a lone Exarch with dual catapults is not too over-priced and you're really only paying a few extra points for the slot. For Elites, Blasterborn, Solitaires, and Wraithguard are good anyway, but you can fill slots easily with a Fire Dragon Exarch, or a single Wraithguard if you're not otherwise taking a squad, or even a lone Scorpion Exarch or Wraithblade to help tie things up. In Fast Attack a lone Shining Spear Exarch seems like a no-brainer, and a Hawk Exarch for 21 points has a good chance of debuffing a whole unit's hit rolls when it deep strikes in. Granted, you could already have been taking 3x 1 Razorwing Flock so you're not actually getting these slots cheaper than you were, but you're getting a lot more out of them now. And then you get an easy Heavy Support pick with a Reaper Exarch, and then you take some Ravagers that are great anyway or maybe a Wraithlord or two.
Was the Starcannon nerf really necessary? They really hate CW Eldar this edition huh. At least Ynarri units can for sure be included in any army now, if only stuck in their own detachment.
edit: also, where tf was the Dire Avenger cost fix? I know they didn't change any points costs but come on I hate using Guardians
The Starcannon nerf is weird. Made an expensive gun that was decent at the current point value into something I imagine I will never run again.
Regarding understrength units I imagine you won't be getting much use out of them. They can still be targeted normally and expunged from the battlefield so if you take that single Dark Reaper Exarch he will be an easy first blood for your opponent.
I would be more worried about people abusing understrength to get cheaper access to Wave Serpents.
Q: Is the cost of the combat shield included in the Company
Champion and Company Champion on Bike’s points?
A: No. This (and all similar ‘other wargear’ found in the
points values section must be paid for in the same way as
a model’s weapons.
Although one could argue other indexes don't affect us, it's pretty much same as Autarches shield or Hemlock's upgrade.
The Starcannon nerf makes sense if you look are it from the perspective of the Suncannon, which is the same tech. The points cost, however, makes it garbage.
On the Autarch and Force shield: until FAQ'd in the Xenos 1 Index, there is no indication that you have to pay the 8pts. "Force Shield" is an ability that Autarchs have and should not be confused with "Force Shield" that is WARGEAR for Wraith Blades.
One is an ability, the other is wargear. You do not pay for abilities.
It may be intended for Autarchs to have it listed as part of their wargear, but it isn't
Martel732 wrote: Is it any better than inadvertently making lists terrible for several editions in a row?
I do not know if it is better or worse, they certainly did make many terrible decisions in the past.
For me personally, this could be the last straw.
I can accept mistakes, or when a unit is made intentionally good to drive sales.
But if they make a whole faction bad ON PURPOSE that is a different story.
I can accept mistakes, or when a unit is made intentionally good to drive sales. But if they make a whole faction bad ON PURPOSE that is a different story.
I whole-heartedly agree with this sentiment. While I don't actually think that GW are trying to make Eldar "bad", there are some peculiarities that stand out as "punishing us for the prior edition"
The WK being 80pts more expensive that an Imperial Knight is the big one for me. They have the same exact profile. If their weapon loadouts where the source of the points difference, that would be one thing, but is not the case here If the intention was to account for the potential buffs a WK can get, those points should be added to the buffing unit, not the WK itself. The WK is more expensive only because they were once undercosted. It's BS and I do not mean 'ballistic skill'
Martel732 wrote: Is it any better than inadvertently making lists terrible for several editions in a row?
I do not know if it is better or worse, they certainly did make many terrible decisions in the past.
For me personally, this could be the last straw.
I can accept mistakes, or when a unit is made intentionally good to drive sales.
But if they make a whole faction bad ON PURPOSE that is a different story.
It is not a "mistake" to hose a codex with an edition change, wait 4 years to update a faction, and then have that codex suck balls. And they've done this repeatedly to several iconic factions, but NEVER to Eldar or Space Wolves. Their codices are always AMAZING. Don't worry, as soon as your actual codex drops, we'll get back to the familiar "tabled in 2 turns by Eldar" threads.
Martel732 wrote: "If the intention was to account for the potential buffs a WK can get, those points should be added to the buffing unit, not the WK itself."
Then there would be complaining about the cost of Eldar psykers. You have to pay for your cheese on one end or the other.
It makes more sense to pay for it on the unit that gives the buff so that if you don't want to play that unit, you aren't still paying the tax for its "possibility" Think of it this way: Dark Eldar Venoms don't pay any extra for a "Farseer bonus" yet can still benefits from Doom (because Doom targets the enemy unit)
The WK is paying for being undercosted in 7E. Pure and simple. If you cannot see what is wrong with that, I'm glad we've never shared table space (which is sad because you seem pretty cool aside from your views on Eldar)
On a Tactical note: How are Eldar at scoring objective? Aside from Guardian spam, it doesn't look like we can really put enough bodies on objectives Do we even try? Or just take as much dakka to blow away the enemies numbers?
I've only seen one WK in 8th, and it seemed to do a pretty good job as a red herring.
In my view, the cost on the WK is off by 10% at most. It should pay something for having access to benefits the IK simply doesn't have.
I still don't think Eldar players are really grasping what overcosted truly looks like. It's not the 8th ed Eldar army. It's a very powerful army that has to kind of pay for the power now.
I think Eldar players should suffer a little bit for past sins. A bit. I want them to work for their wins like everyone else. 8th ed makes them do that, and 7th ed didn't. I don't think 10% miscosted is too bad given GW's track record. Consider yourself lucky that this is the worst nerf you've taken since 3rd.
Martel732 wrote: I've only seen one WK in 8th, and it seemed to do a pretty good job as a red herring.
In my view, the cost on the WK is off by 10% at most. It should pay something for having access to benefits the IK simply doesn't have.
I still don't think Eldar players are really grasping what overcosted truly looks like. It's not the 8th ed Eldar army. It's a very powerful army that has to kind of pay for the power now.
I think Eldar players should suffer a little bit for past sins. A bit. I want them to work for their wins like everyone else. 8th ed makes them do that, and 7th ed didn't. I don't think 10% miscosted is too bad given GW's track record. Consider yourself lucky that this is the worst nerf you've taken since 3rd.
10% overcosted would be tolerable. 80 points over 320 is a 25% increase. Just to piss Eldar players and for the ability to bennefit from some buffs (that you already must pay for).
It's crazy and shouldn't have been approved
Selym wrote: I never played a single game as eldar in 7th. I spent most of 5e-7e as IG and Chaos. Don't talk to me about the have-nots.
Those lists had their ups and downs for sure. 5th ed, IG was great. And the end of 7th, CSM were pretty good if you owned 4 books. But at the end of the day, I don't care what you played. Eldar deserve a turn on the bottomish. Not BA or Tyranid bottom. The slight bottom. So they take actual skill to win with, not just achieving victory in the list building phase.
Martel732 wrote: Oh, don't want to do your turn even in the slightest of have-nots? That seems awfully entitled.
You sir never played eldar in 3rd ed. 4th ed, or 5th ed. The army never really got "good" again until 6th/7th. So 3 editions, and most of a 4th stuck in at best mid tier.
Personally I really hate the sheer amount of entitlement you're putting out. No one is asking for broken eldar, and having the army fair and balanced is best for everyone who plays the game. The fact that you think every army deserves "their turn", in place of trying to get every army to the same level, shows a lack in your character, a lack in good sportsmanship, and a lack of tact. Punishing players, many of whom very well never used the "problem" units, or the problem units don't deserve to have stuffed armies. Neither do the ones who only took the units because they were cool. Hey, same with the tournament players who try to build the best army they can.
Martel732 wrote: I've only seen one WK in 8th, and it seemed to do a pretty good job as a red herring.
In my view, the cost on the WK is off by 10% at most. It should pay something for having access to benefits the IK simply doesn't have.
I still don't think Eldar players are really grasping what overcosted truly looks like. It's not the 8th ed Eldar army. It's a very powerful army that has to kind of pay for the power now.
I think Eldar players should suffer a little bit for past sins. A bit. I want them to work for their wins like everyone else. 8th ed makes them do that, and 7th ed didn't. I don't think 10% miscosted is too bad given GW's track record. Consider yourself lucky that this is the worst nerf you've taken since 3rd.
You are the kind of player that I try to avoid playing against.
I have not played a single game in 7th edition, and i should "suffer" because eldar were good ?
I bought 2 boxes of dire avengers before 7th. You probably think it serves me right.
Wanting players to suffer and their army turned bad is something I rarely see and almost exclusively in 40k communities.
I have never seen behaviour like that in Infinity community for example.
A community should strive for a balanced game where most of the products (models) are usable and a game that is enjoyable for everyone invovled.
This is even more important for games with such a ridiculous buy-in cost, like warhammer 40k.
Yes, I did. Sounds like you just were playing against people who didn't know how to cheese them out properly. 3 shot star cannons and invincible falcons were both a thing.
3 shot star cannons were the ONLY good thing in the codex. Spamming a single weapon doesn't make it a good army. And falcons were no where near invincible, just annoying for my opponents.
Martel732 wrote: I've only seen one WK in 8th, and it seemed to do a pretty good job as a red herring.
In my view, the cost on the WK is off by 10% at most. It should pay something for having access to benefits the IK simply doesn't have.
I still don't think Eldar players are really grasping what overcosted truly looks like. It's not the 8th ed Eldar army. It's a very powerful army that has to kind of pay for the power now.
I think Eldar players should suffer a little bit for past sins. A bit. I want them to work for their wins like everyone else. 8th ed makes them do that, and 7th ed didn't. I don't think 10% miscosted is too bad given GW's track record. Consider yourself lucky that this is the worst nerf you've taken since 3rd.
You are the kind of player that I try to avoid playing against.
I have not played a single game in 7th edition, and i should "suffer" because eldar were good ?
I bought 2 boxes of dire avengers before 7th. You probably think it serves me right.
Wanting players to suffer and their army turned bad is something I rarely see and almost exclusively in 40k communities.
I have never seen behaviour like that in Infinity community for example.
A community should strive for a balanced game where most of the products (models) are usable and a game that is enjoyable for everyone invovled.
This is even more important for games with such a ridiculous buy-in cost, like warhammer 40k.
Just a little suffering. It's good for you. We can broadly define suffering as having to bring weapons other than D weapons and scatterlasers. And maybe not having a criminally undercosted unit in every slot of the force org. Maybe even some fragile units. I thought Eldar were supposed to be a least a LITTLE fragile. But nope, they aren't. Of course, I'd have actually have to have models to shoot back at Eldar to see if they were fragile or not.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mmmpi wrote: 3 shot star cannons were the ONLY good thing in the codex. Spamming a single weapon doesn't make it a good army. And falcons were no where near invincible, just annoying for my opponents.
Try again please.
I'll have to go tell all those tabled people back in 3rd that the starcannon wasn't good after all! They were just picking their models up because Eldar players were asking nicely!
Just a little suffering. It's good for you. We can broadly define suffering as having to bring weapons other than D weapons and scatterlasers. And maybe not having a criminally undercosted unit in every slot of the force org. Maybe even some fragile units.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mmmpi wrote: 3 shot star cannons were the ONLY good thing in the codex. Spamming a single weapon doesn't make it a good army. And falcons were no where near invincible, just annoying for my opponents.
Try again please.
I'll have to go tell all those tabled people back in 3rd that the starcannon wasn't good after all! They were just picking their models up because Eldar players were asking nicely!
Ironically, D weapons and scatterlasers are the least changed, and people aren't taking them.
Starcannons were really good. Killed marines, like every existing marine weapon killed eldar. Whoops, guess that means the Space Marines were broken in 3rd. Or hey, try again.
Just a little suffering. It's good for you. We can broadly define suffering as having to bring weapons other than D weapons and scatterlasers. And maybe not having a criminally undercosted unit in every slot of the force org. Maybe even some fragile units.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mmmpi wrote: 3 shot star cannons were the ONLY good thing in the codex. Spamming a single weapon doesn't make it a good army. And falcons were no where near invincible, just annoying for my opponents.
Try again please.
I'll have to go tell all those tabled people back in 3rd that the starcannon wasn't good after all! They were just picking their models up because Eldar players were asking nicely!
Ironically, D weapons and scatterlasers are the least changed, and people aren't taking them.
Starcannons were really good. Killed marines, like every existing marine weapon killed eldar. Whoops, guess that means the Space Marines were broken in 3rd. Or hey, try again.
Marines were broken in 3rd. At least, for the early part of it. I've never had such lopsided games as with the 3rd ed BA book with the rhino rush craziness. But when Xenos got their codices, that party was basically over. There would have had to have been marines left on the table to shoot Eldar for Eldar to die. But there weren't.
Just a little suffering. It's good for you. We can broadly define suffering as having to bring weapons other than D weapons and scatterlasers. And maybe not having a criminally undercosted unit in every slot of the force org. Maybe even some fragile units. I thought Eldar were supposed to be a least a LITTLE fragile. But nope, they aren't. Of course, I'd have actually have to have models to shoot back at Eldar to see if they were fragile or not.
You clearly do not play eldar yet you come here and moan about our complaints on eldar point costs, I do not get it.
Did someone hit you over the head with a wraithknight after they tabled you or what?
What are you trying to accomplish or contribute to this thread?
Just trying to provide perspective. The WK is not that bad. Dire Avengers are not that bad. For bad, please reference codex BA or codex DE or codex Tyranids circa 7th ed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mmmpi wrote: Your marines players must have SUCKED!
Yeah, most marine players I played against had ways of dealing with SC spam. Numbers, transports, bigger transports (LR), using terrain.
You know, they were competent.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Try again please.
No, your Eldar players were terrible from the sounds of it. There was no mathematical way out of that box. Marines dropped precipitously after the Xenos got their 3rd ed codices. They (vanilla marines) continued getting progressively worse until 6th. Marines were bottom 1/4 by the time 5th was done.
You are trying to justify GW's blatant favoritism towards Eldar by saying it never existed. Well, it did. I lived through it. The same can be said for Space Wolves, but they actually had to move to murder everything, they could just stand there and win.
Martel732 wrote: Just trying to provide perspective. The WK is not that bad. Dire Avengers are not that bad. For bad, please reference codex BA or codex DE or codex Tyranids circa 7th ed.
No, because this is 8e.
We're all in 8e.
And new players will be trying to join us in 8e.
And some of them will take Eldar as their first army in 8e.
And they will run into people like you who will tell them they deserve an unfair share because GW rigged the rules outside 8e.
Martel732 wrote: Just trying to provide perspective. The WK is not that bad. Dire Avengers are not that bad. For bad, please reference codex BA or codex DE or codex Tyranids circa 7th ed.
You just lost all credibility saying that Dire Avengers are not that bad.
Also, this has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with 7th edition. This is 8th edition.
Right now nobody cares if BA or Tyranids were bad before and no one should care bacause that edition is GONE.
Martel732 wrote: Compared to the crap units of 7th, they aren't that bad.
DA are probably one of the less good units in 8th, I won't dispute that. Why should Eldar be immune to have suboptimal units?
For heavens sake, why should anyone have bad units??
I do not want any army to be bad. Why is that so hard to understand.
You on the other hand want eldar to be bad because they were good once.
Selym wrote: The logic of Martel is on par with someone saying that Northern Europe should occupy Italy because the Romans went on a conquering spree once.
That made my day
Automatically Appended Next Post: I see your signature, great sense in humour hahaha
Selym wrote: The logic of Martel is on par with someone saying that Northern Europe should occupy Italy because the Romans went on a conquering spree once.
It's a little more recent than that, but sure, I guess. A little struggle from the Eldar faction would be novel. That's what I'm getting at. After watching mechdar just run over CSM yesterday, I'm getting worried again that GW did it AGAIN.
Khaine wrote: Was the Starcannon nerf really necessary? They really hate CW Eldar this edition huh.
Well, it has been publicly stated that CW Eldar were designed to be bad in this edition.
Can you please post a link to that statement ?
If this is explicitly true, then I am done with warhammer.
You can find it in their lead playtester's notes on this site and others.
Incidentally, I doubt GW had much to do with it outside of choosing him as their lead playtester, since he's had personal biases against certain factions for years, houseruled those armies to be worse in tournaments, while buffing his and his friends armies, and was very public about it.
He's the very definition of someone you wouldn't want in charge of such things.
Khaine wrote: Was the Starcannon nerf really necessary? They really hate CW Eldar this edition huh.
Well, it has been publicly stated that CW Eldar were designed to be bad in this edition.
Can you please post a link to that statement ?
If this is explicitly true, then I am done with warhammer.
You can find it in their lead playtester's notes on this site and others.
Incidentally, I doubt GW had much to do with it outside of choosing him as their lead playtester, since he's had personal biases against certain factions for years, houseruled those armies to be worse in tournaments, while buffing his and his friends armies, and was very public about it.
He's the very definition of someone you wouldn't want in charge of such things.
I have tried to find it before but couldn't. If you have time to do it could you please dig that quote for me?
If you ever played Tyranids with multiple hidden Lictors with Acid Blast, A slew of Pulsa rockets that kept the entire elder army lying on the ground on turn 1 and turn 2 and turn 3 then cut them down , or the gazillion saves a Chaos army could get with Terminator armor and displacerfields and rerolls and psychic on top of that not to mention their sorcerer lords, ugg.
The elder were good but they could get crushed. My opponent plays a vanilla marine list. He takes a few vehicles a lot of heavy weapons and a warp jumping terminator captain and thunder hammer. He has only lost twice to elder in the past couple years (many other players that I don't know) If you know how to play the game in 2nd ed it is easy to take out Eldar. It was poor players that got gutted by elder that cry.
Automatically Appended Next Post: so any new unit thoughts or experiences?
Have not heard of some of the good for a while now after more games have been played???
Managed to play a game today with a few new units.
Took the Phoenix and shadow spectres out.
The shadow spectres were great but are easily priority 1 for opponents to deal with. Still, if they are left unimpeded they have a scary amount of firepower. Especially when soulbursting.
The phoenix was ok. I probably was a not precise enough with its movement to make sure the target it wanted to shoot was closest. But 16 wounds is very nice and it has a lot of firepower.
The hemlock is still scarily good. its a conundrum for the opponent especially with conceal where it can suck up a whole lot of firepower but if left unchecked it will wreck whatever it targets.
Shadenuat wrote: What do you guys think about the differences in wording for morale buffing abilities of Khaine and Yncarne?
I guess technically you roll the dice for morale tests with the Yncarne but the test is automatically passed so you don't lose models. Are there any rules or psychic powers that require morale tests and don't rely on a pass/fail system for an effect?
Wyldcarde wrote: The hemlock is still scarily good. its a conundrum for the opponent especially with conceal where it can suck up a whole lot of firepower but if left unchecked it will wreck whatever it targets.
Sadly the Hemlock cannot Conceal itself. Conceal can only target Infantry and Bikers. I would probably go for Horrify in order to stack Leadership debuffs.
Wyldcarde wrote: The hemlock is still scarily good. its a conundrum for the opponent especially with conceal where it can suck up a whole lot of firepower but if left unchecked it will wreck whatever it targets.
Sadly the Hemlock cannot Conceal itself. Conceal can only target Infantry and Bikers. I would probably go for Horrify in order to stack Leadership debuffs.
As Shadenaut said, the power affect the psyker AND units around it with these unit types. The condition is never stated to apply to the own psyker.
Just a little suffering. It's good for you. We can broadly define suffering as having to bring weapons other than D weapons and scatterlasers. And maybe not having a criminally undercosted unit in every slot of the force org. Maybe even some fragile units. I thought Eldar were supposed to be a least a LITTLE fragile. But nope, they aren't. Of course, I'd have actually have to have models to shoot back at Eldar to see if they were fragile or not.
You, sir, are a douchebag. I don't want anyone to suffer, nor daemons players, nor SM players with razorback spam. I don't want anyone to have to play harder to achieve a win than any other. We should all be at the same level, or at least look forward to that and not making a comunity pay for past GW mistakes, of which players are not responsible for. I have played Eldar for 21 years, since 2nd edition, but I skipped 7th as I hated it, so I should pay for that? What about my Chaos, should I then get free wins at a tournament just for showing due to how bad they have been for the last 5 editions?
Please grow up and look for a healthy community. We should all be feeding to improve bad armies even if it's not ours, and nerf things like gillyman.
What Aspect Warriors are people finding decent and reliable use of? Currently I am seeing a lot of Serpents and Wraiths in lists, but not much Aspect stuff.
Fire Dragons are still good as they were, although you'd better take around 7 or more for reliability.
Reapers are the new black - with their ability to ignore penalties to shooting and solid damage from both types of missiles, they pop around in tournament lists all the time in my meta.
I also played Spears, Spiders and Hawks. Spears have tremendous potential in Ynnari army, but even fortune'd they do suffer from D2 weapons and their price tag. Spiders I still fail to use right and I play them since 4th edition 'dex. I guess next time I am going to just borrow fish of fury tactic from Tau and run them behind line of charging Serpents filled with dragons and melee stuff.
Hawks... surprisingly are good if they have actual target - like 3T stuff with low save but huge amount of wounds, I played them once and 170 pts squad killed at least 250 enemy points or more.
Only one I don't know about much are Scorpions. On paper, they are actually effective against things like terminators - 3-4 models with good save and no more than 2 wounds, since it's possible to do 2 mortal wounds every phase with a squad of 10 + in cover they hit on 2 and with Biting blade it doesn't matter if model has 2+ or 3++. But eh, that 9 inch charge after infiltration... maybe just pack them in Serpent too.
And I guess I'll just leave this guy's post from other forum here:
Wyldcarde wrote: The hemlock is still scarily good. its a conundrum for the opponent especially with conceal where it can suck up a whole lot of firepower but if left unchecked it will wreck whatever it targets.
Sadly the Hemlock cannot Conceal itself. Conceal can only target Infantry and Bikers. I would probably go for Horrify in order to stack Leadership debuffs.
Could people start reading the rules instead of doing a quick read and asume things from 7th as this is very clear? Also please read the whole topic as this has been answered a few times before.
From my experiences so far
Dire avengers: overcosted for what they bring, but solid.
Reapers: scary amount of shooting but expensive and fragile.
Fire dragons: benefit from more survivable wave serpents as well as being able to drop opponent vehicles in one salvo.
Scorpions: expensive for the amount of attacks they dish out but deep striking is handy
Swooping Hawks: deep striking is handy and good verses hordes which means they earn a consideration.
Warp spiders: not as OP as 7th ed but still good. 3+ save and -1 to hit is great and manouverable, but short ranged weapons puts them in danger.
Howling banshees: have some very handy combat buffs available but Str 3 hurts them. A lot better than they have been though.
Shining spears: a lot of changes have benefited them this edition so they are usable. High priority target due to their damage potential but 4+ inv and 2 wounds help them marginally in this.
Crimson hunters: fliers are good.
With different psychic buffs and Phoenix lord auras they each get varying degrees better. But that's my take so far.
I've been eyeballing things loosely from over here. I have the *parts* for an Eldar army that I never got around to assembling, and a few ideas, but one of my fav units are Dire Avengers, due to them being the main soldiery of the Eldar, and it seems like they're not doing so good just now. The general thought I see is that their fine in terms of offense and more or less durability, but are overcosted. I'm curious as to how much that is? I see 17 a model for non-Exarchs, but I'm curious what cost you think would be appropriate.
In addition, the one thing it seems that the force is lacking is some kind of durable point-taking trooper. Someone like Tactical Marines who can just sit on a point, hunker down, and it's going to take surprising levels of firepower to dislodge them. Eldar are more scot n shoot then stand firm, so what do you use in that role of take and HOLD, rather than just sweeping people away with concentrated firepower?
Reapers and Dragons are my go to specialist units. i run a squad of 5 reapers, always in ruins. The 2+ they get keeps them plenty survivable, and the damage out put is just amazing. Always hitting on 3+ is great as well, really sticks it to flyers.
Fire Dragons, just nasty. Played against a monster Tau list the other day. They rode up in a Serpent, jumped out, and nuked a Riptide. Got back in, rode further up the table, and nuked a storm surge. Got back in, rode right up to the HQ, and nuked him.
I'm loving Eldar this edition. Glad I didn't listen to all the nay sayers at the beginning. I almost shelved them.
Wakshaani wrote: I've been eyeballing things loosely from over here. I have the *parts* for an Eldar army that I never got around to assembling, and a few ideas, but one of my fav units are Dire Avengers, due to them being the main soldiery of the Eldar, and it seems like they're not doing so good just now. The general thought I see is that their fine in terms of offense and more or less durability, but are overcosted. I'm curious as to how much that is? I see 17 a model for non-Exarchs, but I'm curious what cost you think would be appropriate.
The Dire Avengers are 10ppm plus 7ppm for their ASC. GW separated the price like this so that other units do not have to pay differing costs for the same weapons, except that only the DA use ASC. Really, the DA should be around 14-15ppm, and the ASC should be 0ppm, given the current listbuilding method.
Here's a fun fact though, a DA Exarch with power glaive and shuriken pistol is 14 points. Weird.
I think the main thing to understand about Dire Avengers is that, like other Aspect Warriors, all you're getting from them is the thing that the basic guy does, so they have to be really good at that. They're not like tactical marines where it's fine that a naked marine is somewhat overcosted by himself because they function as ablative wounds for better guns. I mean, nobody's taking naked tactical marine squads and judging that adding a special or heavy weapon just isn't worth the cost. Guardian Defenders are also supposed to work this way -- you're supposed to be taking the Guardians over the Avengers because you value the heavy weapon and want cheap wounds around it. So I think the starting point for coming up with an appropriate cost for Dire Avengers is understanding that standard Dire Avengers should be significantly more appealing than naked Marines (which no one thinks are worth their points) or Guardians without heavy weapons.
I think they'd be playable at 12 per model, depending on what happens with the Exarch. Ignoring the Exarch you would probably still rather just have Guardians in your Serpents, and Avengers still wouldn't be appealing enough to take on foot outside of something weird like Asurmen and 100 Avengers. Guardians would still be 50% shootier within 12" and at least 12% more durable against everything. But if the Exarch isn't paying anything for the extra catapult, then minimum squads of Avengers start looking like a good way to take cheap Serpents, if that's what you want to do.
I suspect they were playtested at 10 (and that this is why playtesters seemed to think they were pretty good). That feels like a pretty aggressive price which would make them a very strong choice as the backbone of a footslogging or mechanized Eldar list. It's worth noting that that's still more expensive than a Battle Sister with a 3+/6++ save, a bolter, and ablative wound functionality.
I guess I trip up on the fluff side, where Guardians are average, every day Eldar who are gathered up, take old gear out of storage, and go, "Well, I've been a baker for 80 years, but I used to be an Aspect Warrior, three lifepaths ago. I guess I can go catch bullets if it's that important..." For a dying race, tossing the civilians out there always sat wrong with me, so, Dire Avengers, and the other aspects, always clicked as the way Eldar were *supposed* to fight.
I understand that it's not as sound mechanically, but that's where my brain is.
Would DA's be broken at 12 points? You're paying for the 18" Shuriken Catapults and +1 save, which isn't *much* better, but -s- better. You trade off a heavy platform for an Exarch, then top it all off with impressive Overwatch skills. But 17 seems far too high for that while 10 seems too low. Finding that sweet spot's a challenge.
So ive been wanting to make a jetbike list for a couple editions but they have been a little unfriendly in our groups games in past editions, but looking at all the eldar, dark eldar, and harliquin stuff i was thinking about finally starting them.
my question is this, guardian jet bikes vs skyweaers, where would you make your core around for a jetbike list? and with all that speed would it be worth going ynnari and loosing there respective ability for soulburst?
lordtaco wrote: So ive been wanting to make a jetbike list for a couple editions but they have been a little unfriendly in our groups games in past editions, but looking at all the eldar, dark eldar, and harliquin stuff i was thinking about finally starting them.
my question is this, guardian jet bikes vs skyweaers, where would you make your core around for a jetbike list? and with all that speed would it be worth going ynnari and loosing there respective ability for soulburst?
If you are looking for ynnari I like the corsair cloud dancers with splinter cannons. We have a lot of fast moving anti vehicle but not much anti infantry. The splinter cannon is amazing at anti infantry and the corsair jetbikes have an 18" move so are very fast without the battle focus running and they lose nothing from becoming ynnari.
Addmitedly shuriken bikes are very cheap compared to them and also make a solid choice. Another rising favourite is shinning spears which while very expensive keep a 3+/4++ And hit very hard.
Wakshaani wrote: I guess I trip up on the fluff side, where Guardians are average, every day Eldar who are gathered up, take old gear out of storage, and go, "Well, I've been a baker for 80 years, but I used to be an Aspect Warrior, three lifepaths ago. I guess I can go catch bullets if it's that important..." For a dying race, tossing the civilians out there always sat wrong with me, so, Dire Avengers, and the other aspects, always clicked as the way Eldar were *supposed* to fight.
The Guardian units are just a militia to "guard" a Craftworld under assault. They aren't professional soldiers. Seeing them on the battlefield is basically like what happens when Britain in WW1 ran out of troops. Except odds are that these guys have fought before, and know what they're doing..
No sane Autarch looks at his Craftworld and thinks to himself, "Man, I could really do with a squad of soldiers consisting of a butcher, a baker and a candlestick maker..." even if those guys came with the Eldar equivalent of a Maxim gun.
Wakshaani wrote: I guess I trip up on the fluff side, where Guardians are average, every day Eldar who are gathered up, take old gear out of storage, and go, "Well, I've been a baker for 80 years, but I used to be an Aspect Warrior, three lifepaths ago. I guess I can go catch bullets if it's that important..." For a dying race, tossing the civilians out there always sat wrong with me, so, Dire Avengers, and the other aspects, always clicked as the way Eldar were *supposed* to fight.
The Guardian units are just a militia to "guard" a Craftworld under assault. They aren't professional soldiers. Seeing them on the battlefield is basically like what happens when Britain in WW1 ran out of troops. Except odds are that these guys have fought before, and know what they're doing..
No sane Autarch looks at his Craftworld and thinks to himself, "Man, I could really do with a squad of soldiers consisting of a butcher, a baker and a candlestick maker..." even if those guys came with the Eldar equivalent of a Maxim gun.
Right right, exactly why I get twitchy about fielding them. They seem like a desperation deployment, not a standard fighting force, and certainly nothing that you'd use for a mission that was, you know, "Recon in force" or the like. Thus my view that, whenever possible, I should be using Aspects to fight. I dunno. Again, I'm weird. But with that in mind, if the DA would drop in points cost to, say, 12 or 13 (13'd be the same as a Tactical marine) then I'd be pretty dang happy. They're what I want to form the backbone of my force, so...
lordtaco wrote: So ive been wanting to make a jetbike list for a couple editions but they have been a little unfriendly in our groups games in past editions, but looking at all the eldar, dark eldar, and harliquin stuff i was thinking about finally starting them.
my question is this, guardian jet bikes vs skyweaers, where would you make your core around for a jetbike list? and with all that speed would it be worth going ynnari and loosing there respective ability for soulburst?
If you are looking for ynnari I like the corsair cloud dancers with splinter cannons. We have a lot of fast moving anti vehicle but not much anti infantry. The splinter cannon is amazing at anti infantry and the corsair jetbikes have an 18" move so are very fast without the battle focus running and they lose nothing from becoming ynnari.
Addmitedly shuriken bikes are very cheap compared to them and also make a solid choice. Another rising favourite is shinning spears which while very expensive keep a 3+/4++ And hit very hard.
im honestly not too big of a fan of the eldar corsairs stuff from forgeworld, more interested in what could make a good list with out them.
I have about 50 Dire Avengers and have yet to find an edition that motivates to finish painting them. I really want to field a mostly DA list. I love the models.
Looking at a vacuum I like DA to be 12 or 13 points compared to what you get from a tac marine. I do concede that they can play better with ynarri or craftworld buffs/psychics so perhaps 14. 15 and I still prob wont field more than 1 unit
Here is a fun fact. The shuriken catapult for guardians/Avengers used to have the same range as a storm bolter, the chance to roll as many shots and -2 save vs the -1 for storm bolter. Then 3rd ed came along and nuked the fave weapon of Imperial characters that could take Shuriken Catapults.{they were rare, but a mainline battle weapon found its way into many inquisitors/governor's armories through trade or the black market
Dire Avebgers are 5-7 points over. They should clearly not be more expensive than tactical marines.
Shining Spears can't be praised enough, their shooting is awesome albeit short ranged, their charge is brutal and thanks to the fly keyword they can disengage and do it all over.
Their survivability is as good as it gets for Eldar, especially with tje 4++ against shooting.
Warlocks are an often overlooked asset. They are dirt cheap. Slightly hampered by the rules you can try to cast each power just once but there's some awesomw buffs and debuffs to be had.
I'm going to be playing in a Power Level tournament soon which is annoying but a great excuse to use Dire Avengers. They are massively over costed in points but their power level equates to about 120pts which is much more reasonable.
Yes warlocks are great.
The can't cast the same power more than once is mitigated slightly by the other side of the power not counting as the same power. So having 2 warlocks with conceal or enhance isn't wasted as they can still cast reveal or drain which are both great powers.
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Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I'm going to be playing in a Power Level tournament soon which is annoying but a great excuse to use Dire Avengers. They are massively over costed in points but their power level equates to about 120pts which is much more reasonable.
Yep. Their power level seems to count their avenger catapaults as free which would honestly make sense. At 12 points per model they would be a decent choice. There is no way they fit to the power level rating they have been given at 17 points per model. Which is odd.
Guardian Defender weapon platforms... are they actually worth the points? At least Shuriken cannon.
The breakdown - you pay 25 points pet shuriken cannon in the squad. Because you need 1 guardian to operate it (and he can't shoot while doing it), platform costs extra points and then there is the price of actual SC.
For that price you can have 3 basic guardians with catapults.
my question is this, guardian jet bikes vs skyweaers, where would you make your core around for a jetbike list? and with all that speed would it be worth going ynnari and loosing there respective ability for soulburst?
For a small list (1000 pts) I use Farseer on Bike with Fortune&Doom, 9 windriders or Shining Spears, and add up either 2 small units of bikes, or 1+1 Vyper (Outrider, 3 FA). The rest is for Crimson Hunter, or preferably Crimson Hunter + Hemlock to Conceal the bikes.
Just know that bikes are a lot more fragile than they were, so you want to use something else to tank for them as points go up and your chance to alpha strike the enemy before he strikes you goes down (like transports, etc.)
Ynnari, all the way. Speed allows using SfD better than slower armies.
I have never liked the fluff about the Shuricat from 3rd ed onwards. It makes no sense to arm militia with the equivalent of a machine pistol. If you look at countries that do have militia like Switzerland, they are usually armed with a long-ranged rifle so that they can stand well back and plink at targets.
Rant over!
In all seriousness, if you want Troop units on foot, I think you might be better off playing Ynnari and taking Kabalite warriors as your basic infantry. Slightly cheaper than Guardians, similar stats but come with a 24" range Rapid Fire gun that wounds all non-vehicle targets on a 4+.
Guardians work well as cheap fillings for Wave Serpents as they are well protected until the leap and shoot 20+ shurcat shots + a heavy weapon.
Guardians and Dire Avengers both have almost the same stats as 7th edition. Guardians cost 8 points in both editions yet Avengers have leapt from 12 to 17 points. IMHO, Avengers would be fine priced at 12 points. There is nothing to justify them costing more than Marines and certainly not almost as much as Vanguard Veterans.
I think the weapon platforms are costed appropriately relative to, say, Marine heavy weapons. A platform and a bright lance together are 25 points, and you need an 8 point Guardian to shoot one. A Marine with a Lascannon is 38 points. Neither is that appealing of a choice -- this is why you see Marines more commonly taking special weapons like plasma or melta guns. They don't strike me as terrible options for stand-and-shoot objective holders, but with how easy it is to deep strike or just move really far in 8th you need something more durable for this.
If you're taking a heavy weapon you should basically always be taking one of the expensive ones, though. Yes, shuriken cannons are assault but you would generally rather have the extra Guardians instead. Now, if Defenders had Storm Guardians' special weapon options we'd be in business.
Shuriken Catapults never worked for Guardians, for me. They used to have Lasguns, waaaaayyy back in the day, and something similar would be ideal today. Like:
Eldar Las-Spear: Range 36", Rapid Fire 1, S 3, Ap -, Dam 1
It's a real "Stay the heck away from the other guy with your precious Eldar body" type of weapon, better than an Imperial lasgun but not stomping on the design space of the Tau. Helps invoke the spear and bow of the Fantasy style Elves while still being appropriate for sci-fi Elves.
That leaves ShuriCats for Dire Avengers, where it makes sense, and some vehicles, where it works like a close-in MG on modern vehicles.
Wakshaani wrote: Shuriken Catapults never worked for Guardians, for me. They used to have Lasguns, waaaaayyy back in the day, and something similar would be ideal today. Like:
Eldar Las-Spear: Range 36", Rapid Fire 1, S 3, Ap -, Dam 1
It's a real "Stay the heck away from the other guy with your precious Eldar body" type of weapon, better than an Imperial lasgun but not stomping on the design space of the Tau. Helps invoke the spear and bow of the Fantasy style Elves while still being appropriate for sci-fi Elves.
That leaves ShuriCats for Dire Avengers, where it makes sense, and some vehicles, where it works like a close-in MG on modern vehicles.
But, again, I'm weird, so.
No, no, that's not weird. What's weird is how Eldar have always played with the mindset that "Right, I need to kill a unit. Where's my sacrificial squad of ____?"
Running away from combat, cheating with magic, and generally range-scumming is exactly how Eldar should play. Cowardly tricksy elves.
And I miss the pewpewlayzorz of the lasgun. Give that power to Guardians, and I'd be a happy chappie.
No, no, that's not weird. What's weird is how Eldar have always played with the mindset that "Right, I need to kill a unit. Where's my sacrificial squad of ____?"
Running away from combat, cheating with magic, and generally range-scumming is exactly how Eldar should play. Cowardly tricksy elves.
And I miss the pewpewlayzorz of the lasgun. Give that power to Guardians, and I'd be a happy chappie.
That's exactly the unit that I wante dto give that thing to, yeah, since they used to *have* lasguns back in the day. Eldar are rare, a dying race, and every life is *precious*. They should be all about keeping the bad guys way the heck over THERE while keeping themselves over HERE, barring a few crazy fraggers like Banshees that leap into the middle of combat because, well, that's one of those Eldar things that don't get discussed in private company. (cough cough Slaanesh was born for a reason cough).
So, yes, magic-using, range-fighting, better-then-you-but-always-outnumbered Space Elves, dangit. That shouldn't be so much to ask, I don't think.
(but, boy howdy, do I need 12 point Dire Avengers.)
Shuriken Catapults used to be 24 inch range which meant that Guardians could actually keep a distance and save their precious lives. Then GW wanted to balance the guns, and instead of increasing the point cost or something else they decided that anyone wielding a Catapult was in fact a Suicide unit and needed to get in the face of their inevitable doom.
Martel732 wrote: Just a little suffering. It's good for you. We can broadly define suffering as having to bring weapons other than D weapons and scatterlasers. And maybe not having a criminally undercosted unit in every slot of the force org. Maybe even some fragile units. I thought Eldar were supposed to be a least a LITTLE fragile. But nope, they aren't. Of course, I'd have actually have to have models to shoot back at Eldar to see if they were fragile or not.
Thank you for qualifying your statement. Suffering by not having easy access or massively overpowered and undercosted units is suffering I can get behind.
From what I've seen the Wraithknight isn't really overcosted compared to the Imperial Knight. Both run around 500 points, and the Wraithknight does have advantages over the Imperial Knight. The base model can advance and fire its Heavy Wraithcannons. Without secondary weapons, a Titanic Ghostglaive/Scattershield runs cheaper than a fully kitted-out knight Warden and has no -1 penalty when hitting in close combat. Suncannon and Scattershield has longer range than the Gatling gun on a Knight with better AP and damage.
Guardians x10
Wave Serpent with CTM, and Twin EML, Shuricannon
Guardians x10
Wave Serpent with CTM and Twin EML, ShuriCannon
Guardians x10 with EML
Fire Dragons x5 w/ Exarch
Wave Serpent with CTM, and Twin BL
Dark Reapers x5 w/ Exarch
War Walkers x2 w/ Twin Scatter Lasers
Wraith Knight w/ two wraith cannons and two scatter lasers.
I've been having great luck with it so far. Local store is doing another tournament this weekend that I'll get to take it on one last spin before I have to lock this list in for good.
That looks like a pretty solid list with a good selection of Buffs. Little light on assault apart from the WK himself but that isn't necessarily a problem.
The AML choice is interesting. How's their performance for you? I'd probably take more Dark Reapers for the price of AMLs though. Or move them to War Walkers since they can just move before battle and then stand still.
Shadenuat wrote: The AML choice is interesting. How's their performance for you? I'd probably take more Dark Reapers for the price of AMLs though. Or move them to War Walkers since they can just move before battle and then stand still.
So far so good. They're slightly more expensive then a Bright Lance, but their better range and multiple firing options makes them worth the extra points IMO.
I am limited in model count for the Dark Reapers, and I do absolutely love those guys. I like keeping the war walkers smaller, because they seem less threatening that way, and their 12" move before the game starts generally means they'll get a turn 1 assault. They aren't meant to kill whatever they assault, just make sure that a unit like devastators, land raiders, etc... never get to shoot.
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Karhedron wrote: That looks like a pretty solid list with a good selection of Buffs. Little light on assault apart from the WK himself but that isn't necessarily a problem.
With Doom, I've found even the guardians can get the job done in assault. Just gotta pick the right targets. This is definitely a shooting army. Use their inherent speed to stay out of assaults that you don't want to be in. Use their strong shooting to soften up targets then assault when beneficial.
Martel732 wrote: Just a little suffering. It's good for you. We can broadly define suffering as having to bring weapons other than D weapons and scatterlasers. And maybe not having a criminally undercosted unit in every slot of the force org. Maybe even some fragile units. I thought Eldar were supposed to be a least a LITTLE fragile. But nope, they aren't. Of course, I'd have actually have to have models to shoot back at Eldar to see if they were fragile or not.
Thank you for qualifying your statement. Suffering by not having easy access or massively overpowered and undercosted units is suffering I can get behind.
From what I've seen the Wraithknight isn't really overcosted compared to the Imperial Knight. Both run around 500 points, and the Wraithknight does have advantages over the Imperial Knight. The base model can advance and fire its Heavy Wraithcannons. Without secondary weapons, a Titanic Ghostglaive/Scattershield runs cheaper than a fully kitted-out knight Warden and has no -1 penalty when hitting in close combat. Suncannon and Scattershield has longer range than the Gatling gun on a Knight with better AP and damage.
Making Eldar powerful, but fragile is what gives them their mystique. If they just absorb infinite damage and shoot with infinite firepower, it gets boring fast.
Martel732 wrote: Just a little suffering. It's good for you. We can broadly define suffering as having to bring weapons other than D weapons and scatterlasers. And maybe not having a criminally undercosted unit in every slot of the force org. Maybe even some fragile units. I thought Eldar were supposed to be a least a LITTLE fragile. But nope, they aren't. Of course, I'd have actually have to have models to shoot back at Eldar to see if they were fragile or not.
Thank you for qualifying your statement. Suffering by not having easy access or massively overpowered and undercosted units is suffering I can get behind.
From what I've seen the Wraithknight isn't really overcosted compared to the Imperial Knight. Both run around 500 points, and the Wraithknight does have advantages over the Imperial Knight. The base model can advance and fire its Heavy Wraithcannons. Without secondary weapons, a Titanic Ghostglaive/Scattershield runs cheaper than a fully kitted-out knight Warden and has no -1 penalty when hitting in close combat. Suncannon and Scattershield has longer range than the Gatling gun on a Knight with better AP and damage.
Making Eldar powerful, but fragile is what gives them their mystique. If they just absorb infinite damage and shoot with infinite firepower, it gets boring fast.
Currently Eldar units are either:
A) Fragile with low damage output, or
B) Durable with moderate damage output, or
C) Whatever Martel's been facing, and clearly has no weaknesses.
Martel732 wrote: Just a little suffering. It's good for you. We can broadly define suffering as having to bring weapons other than D weapons and scatterlasers. And maybe not having a criminally undercosted unit in every slot of the force org. Maybe even some fragile units. I thought Eldar were supposed to be a least a LITTLE fragile. But nope, they aren't. Of course, I'd have actually have to have models to shoot back at Eldar to see if they were fragile or not.
Thank you for qualifying your statement. Suffering by not having easy access or massively overpowered and undercosted units is suffering I can get behind.
From what I've seen the Wraithknight isn't really overcosted compared to the Imperial Knight. Both run around 500 points, and the Wraithknight does have advantages over the Imperial Knight. The base model can advance and fire its Heavy Wraithcannons. Without secondary weapons, a Titanic Ghostglaive/Scattershield runs cheaper than a fully kitted-out knight Warden and has no -1 penalty when hitting in close combat. Suncannon and Scattershield has longer range than the Gatling gun on a Knight with better AP and damage.
Would you recommend the Wraithknight with suncannon/scattershield with shuricannons in this edition? Thinking about picking one up. People on this forum were saying its too pricey but honestly, looking at it and comparing it to the other big shots in other armies it looks rather comparable, assuming you have plenty of anti tank in your army as a whole.
Martel732 wrote: Just a little suffering. It's good for you. We can broadly define suffering as having to bring weapons other than D weapons and scatterlasers. And maybe not having a criminally undercosted unit in every slot of the force org. Maybe even some fragile units. I thought Eldar were supposed to be a least a LITTLE fragile. But nope, they aren't. Of course, I'd have actually have to have models to shoot back at Eldar to see if they were fragile or not.
Thank you for qualifying your statement. Suffering by not having easy access or massively overpowered and undercosted units is suffering I can get behind.
From what I've seen the Wraithknight isn't really overcosted compared to the Imperial Knight. Both run around 500 points, and the Wraithknight does have advantages over the Imperial Knight. The base model can advance and fire its Heavy Wraithcannons. Without secondary weapons, a Titanic Ghostglaive/Scattershield runs cheaper than a fully kitted-out knight Warden and has no -1 penalty when hitting in close combat. Suncannon and Scattershield has longer range than the Gatling gun on a Knight with better AP and damage.
Would you recommend the Wraithknight with suncannon/scattershield with shuricannons in this edition? Thinking about picking one up. People on this forum were saying its too pricey but honestly, looking at it and comparing it to the other big shots in other armies it looks rather comparable, assuming you have plenty of anti tank in your army as a whole.
I definitely prefer the Wraithcannons. Those things will destroy anything they shoot at, baring another Lord of War. Even against most Lords of War, they'll deliver a devastating blow. My Wraithknight delivered 17 wounds to a Knight in a single round of fire recently. He basically solo'd a Stormsurge the other day. I bring him primarily as a foil to other Super Heavy's. He may not spam D weapons anymore, but Str 10 d6 wound weapons may as well be D.
Hey all, had my first game with Eldar this edition, and decided to try kind of an oddball list. It was a 2000 point game against Tyranids, which was running a full monster mash horde with about 100 bodies on the board, 2 carnifexes, a haruspex, mawloc, drop podding devilgaunts, broodlord, multiple warriors and biovores. Fairly nasty!
I used the Ynnari rules and an outrider detachment so I wouldn't be forced to buy more troops than I wanted. My list was as follows:
Spoiler:
Yvraine
Autarch with swooping hawk wings, power sword, fusion pistol
Guardians x 10
- Wave Serpent, triple shuricannon
Fire Dragons x 6
- Wave Serpent, triple shuricannon
WraithBLADES x10 w/Axe & Shield (540 points!)
Windriders x4 w/shuriken catapults
Windriders x3 w/shuricannons
Vyper w/Bright Lance, catapults
Crimson Hunter (stock)
War Walkers x 2, one with dual EML, one with dual Bright Lance
Looking across the board, I was pretty sure I was going to lose this one, as I was absurdly outnumbered and everything looked really nasty and in my face. I ended up almost tabling my opponent,
The wraithblades were absurdly survivable, and killed 20+ hormagaunts, about 12 gargoyles, the haruspex (killing it in one round of combat before it got to swing!), 2 carnifexes, a unit of tyranid warriors and a Tyranid Prime. I still had 6 models left in the unit at the end of the game. That was like half of my opponent's army.
I thought those dudes were overpriced. Not so sure about that any more! Maybe it was just good luck on my part, but the combination of the 3+/4++ with 3 T5 wounds made them really hard to take down, and they can certainly bring the pain with their S7, D3 damage attacks. When combined with soulburst granting them additional fight phases, they were just ridiculously killy. Will definitely use again!
Taking a gander at the Wraithblades, and they look like the piece I was missing for taking and, more importantly holding, an objective. T5, 3 Wounds, a 3+ save (2 in cover, important that!) and possibly a 4+ invulnerable save. You only get the 4++ if you take an axe, correct? You can't take the sword and get it?
Not having the awesome guns of the usual Wraith guys is an ouchy, but if I stick a Warlock in there with 'em, that'd be a unit that's -1 to-be hit, T5, Sv 2+/4++ and 3 wounds each ... that just seems like it's all *kinds* of sticky and would be able to deal with about anything sent to toss 'em out of the hold. That's about 300 points in all tho, so the question then becomes "Is it worth it?"
I mean, our DAs are 1ppm cheaper than Sternies, and didn't get the huge buffs or point drops plasma got. So they aren't as OK as Tac Marines, but still...
A) Fragile with low damage output, or
B) Durable with moderate damage output, or
C) Whatever Martel's been facing, and clearly has no weaknesses.
I'd disagree. From the reports people have been bringing back Eldar Infantry are doing very well in 8th if used correctly. Fire Dragons make vehicles disappear, Dark Reapers are one of the nastiest shooting units in the game, and most all of the other Aspect Warriors seems to be useable on the tabletop as well in their proper roles. Guardians will outperform MEQ with Bolters at 12 inches, and Dire Avengers will outperform the same to 18 inches while being tougher vs AP -3 or better weaponry. And unless the unit has funky deployment or movement rules, you can add D6 in he's to the threat range of any Eldar infantry unit thanks to Battle Focus.
Doesn't matter what you arm it with. Their usefulness to cost ratio is too low.
Would you recommend an Imperial Knight? The price range is very similar, but it trades versatility overall for versatility in shooting.
An Imperial Knight has to get rid of melee weapons if it wants better shooting. A Wraithknight always has its fists, and four S8 AP -4 D6 damage attacks is nothing to sneeze at, even vs. superheavies.
I wouldn't say secondary weapons (barring what you get by default on the Imperial Knight and the Carapace Weapons) are worth it for either unit though. Sinks too many points into an already expensive unit.
Doesn't matter what you arm it with. Their usefulness to cost ratio is too low.
I thought the exact same thing, but I love the model so I ran one anyway. Built an entire list of Serpents and wraith constructs (4xWS, WK, 2xWL, Hemlock), and it just overwhelmed the enemy AT with targets. This particular opponent decided to start popping my tanks and just suffer through the WK, but now that they have the titanic feet attack (not as powerful but much more reliable than stomp) and the ability to disengage, shoot, and charge every turn... making it immune to tarpits... Ignoring it is really no longer an option.
Long story short, I'm glad it's weaker on paper because hopefully I won't get dirty looks when I go buy a second one... because it's still damn good and I want a second one.
Also, in response to an earlier discussion: Guardian Defender weapon platforms can be used defensively. 3+ save and 2 wounds allows you to put it in front of massed small arms fire. 4 guardian's worth of wounds would be the average it takes (twice it's cost with a Shuriken Cannon), but I had a good streak of armor saves the other days and saved a whole squads worth of wounds
5 Dire Avengers might outshoot 5 Marines with Boltguns. But for the cost of 5 DAs you get 5 Marines +Pg +Combi... And that will outshoot DAs easily all the way up to T14 without even using overcharge.
Tac Marines take twice as much small arms fire, don't lose a notable amount of firepower until their last 2 models and, in a pinch, are much better in CC.
(Heck, in my last game, a tac squad beat banshees + Exarch + Jain Zar in CC... My dice hate me.)
Wakshaani wrote: Taking a gander at the Wraithblades, and they look like the piece I was missing for taking and, more importantly holding, an objective. T5, 3 Wounds, a 3+ save (2 in cover, important that!) and possibly a 4+ invulnerable save. You only get the 4++ if you take an axe, correct? You can't take the sword and get it?
Not having the awesome guns of the usual Wraith guys is an ouchy, but if I stick a Warlock in there with 'em, that'd be a unit that's -1 to-be hit, T5, Sv 2+/4++ and 3 wounds each ... that just seems like it's all *kinds* of sticky and would be able to deal with about anything sent to toss 'em out of the hold. That's about 300 points in all tho, so the question then becomes "Is it worth it?"
Keep in mind that I was facing a very melee oriented force. Against something that doesn't want to be in melee, I don't think they would have been nearly as good. However, I have a feeling that melee armies will be making a big comeback this edition, so having a unit that can take a charge and act as the bulwark for your shooting units is pretty nice. The points cost for the axe variety, though, is huge, so probably not feasible at low points levels.
And to your second point, yes, they are great objective holders. The reason my opponent threw so much stuff at them was because they had take a crucial mid field objective, and he was going to lose if he did!"n't push them off it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh yes, and you need to take the axe if you want the invuln, too.
Martel732 wrote: Just a little suffering. It's good for you. We can broadly define suffering as having to bring weapons other than D weapons and scatterlasers. And maybe not having a criminally undercosted unit in every slot of the force org. Maybe even some fragile units. I thought Eldar were supposed to be a least a LITTLE fragile. But nope, they aren't. Of course, I'd have actually have to have models to shoot back at Eldar to see if they were fragile or not.
Thank you for qualifying your statement. Suffering by not having easy access or massively overpowered and undercosted units is suffering I can get behind.
From what I've seen the Wraithknight isn't really overcosted compared to the Imperial Knight. Both run around 500 points, and the Wraithknight does have advantages over the Imperial Knight. The base model can advance and fire its Heavy Wraithcannons. Without secondary weapons, a Titanic Ghostglaive/Scattershield runs cheaper than a fully kitted-out knight Warden and has no -1 penalty when hitting in close combat. Suncannon and Scattershield has longer range than the Gatling gun on a Knight with better AP and damage.
Both run around 500 points: wrong. A barebones sword+shield WK is 487, while a Knight Errant (which is well equiped for CC and shooting) is 430. How do you call the second close to 500 points?
the Wraithknight does have advantages over the Imperial Knight: wrong. The Wraithknight has no single objective advantage over the IK, expet being able to bennefit from buffs (not inherent to it) and losing an stellar 1 inch less of movement when wounded, while the IK gets a 5++ save against shooting by default.
The base model can advance and fire its Heavy Wraithcannons: Situational. Being allowed to move an extra 1d6 and shoot with -1 to hit has very limited utility with 36" range.
Titanic Ghostglaive/Scattershield runs cheaper than a fully kitted-out knight Warden: true. Yet such a WK is only useful in CC while the Knight Warden has awesome shooting and good close combat potential. That's the minimum you could expect, that a significantly worse WK would be cheaper than a superior IK.
Suncannon and Scattershield has longer range than the Gatling gun on a Knight with better AP and damage: partially true. 1d3 damage is statistically the same as D2, with a lower minimum and higher maximum. The Suncannon also gets 7 shots on average against always 12. That's a very significant difference.
Veredict: Your post was very biased towards the WK or you didn't realize most WK options are worse or more expensive.
Would you recommend an Imperial Knight? The price range is very similar, but it trades versatility overall for versatility in shooting.
An Imperial Knight has to get rid of melee weapons if it wants better shooting. A Wraithknight always has its fists, and four S8 AP -4 D6 damage attacks is nothing to sneeze at, even vs. superheavies.
Titanic Wraithbone Fists are worse against every target than Titanic feet (which both Knights get by default). With the WK you get the ilusion of getting a better CC weapon for free, but it's just cosmetic. You are better using the feet anyway.
I agree entirely with DanielFM. The suncannon is definitely worse in my eyes than the rapid fire battle cannon. I'd much rather have S8 instead of S6 and lose one AP. It's not even close in my eyes. Battlecannon is *way* better against vehicles. Some how the suncannon is 18 points *more expensive* than the Battlecannon.
Maybe you could argue that heavy wraith cannons are better than the IK Thermal Cannon. Without doing the math I can't definitely say the wraithcannons are better than the knight's other weapon options. But having 2 wraith cannons and no invulnerable save does kind of suck.
I guess the ghostglaive is better than the reaper chainsword because S16 vs S12 but that's not worth the extra 35 points the glaive costs. Also a IK can take the chainsword, a rapid fire battle cannon, and still have an invulnerable save. A WK can't do that.
The real kicker of the WK being over costed is that you can easily fit 4 IK's in 2000 points. That list will be very competitive and while it might not win every tournament it's going to wreck shop on any army that's not ready for it. You can't do that with WK's.
how do people feel about rangers for troops? and iis there any reason to pick a vyper over a void weaver in a ynnari list? been trying to figure out how best to use vypers if i should at all and the change to starcannons are kinda annoying. slowly trying to figure out how i want to build my army and im thinking of rangers for a troop choice if i go for a batilion since they moved windriders to fast attack, or should i just skip the battalion?
lordtaco wrote: how do people feel about rangers for troops?
Mine have performed well in early games. The ability to hit target Characters is more useful against some lists than others but is never wasted IMHO. The bonus Mortal Wounds are nice and can come in handy but work best with a Doomseer on hand (the same is true of many of your weapons).
I initially felt they may be a smidge over-costed when compared to SM Scouts for example but their better deployment rules help to balance them a little. Between the -1 to hit and +2 save in cover, they are just about tough enough that your opponent will have to divert some effort to shifting them if he wants to avoid death by a thousand paper cuts (toxin darts?). Also the fact that enemy units cannot Deep Strike into flamer range anymore is handy.
In summary they are a 100 point Troop unit that can threaten anything in the game, do not need a transport or other upgrades to contribute and can occasionally pick off annoying Characters for you. I think they are reasonably solid in 8th edition if you are looking to run a Battalion and rack up those CPs.
lordtaco wrote: how do people feel about rangers for troops? and iis there any reason to pick a vyper over a void weaver in a ynnari list? been trying to figure out how best to use vypers if i should at all and the change to starcannons are kinda annoying. slowly trying to figure out how i want to build my army and im thinking of rangers for a troop choice if i go for a batilion since they moved windriders to fast attack, or should i just skip the battalion?
In the games I've played with rangers they were very fragile and way to expensive. They couldn't put out enough dakka before they got wiped out in every game. I would recommend against using them.
I ran dual cannon vypers a few times. They also got killed pretty easily. Not sure if the void weaver would be better or not. -1 to hit and 4++ save is nice. Seems like it should be better.
Silent_Tempest wrote: I agree entirely with DanielFM. The suncannon is definitely worse in my eyes than the rapid fire battle cannon. I'd much rather have S8 instead of S6 and lose one AP. It's not even close in my eyes. Battlecannon is *way* better against vehicles. Some how the suncannon is 18 points *more expensive* than the Battlecannon.
Maybe you could argue that heavy wraith cannons are better than the IK Thermal Cannon. Without doing the math I can't definitely say the wraithcannons are better than the knight's other weapon options. But having 2 wraith cannons and no invulnerable save does kind of suck.
I guess the ghostglaive is better than the reaper chainsword because S16 vs S12 but that's not worth the extra 35 points the glaive costs. Also a IK can take the chainsword, a rapid fire battle cannon, and still have an invulnerable save. A WK can't do that.
The Rapid-Fire Battlecannon is similar to the Suncannon (but cheaper), and the Avenger Gatling cannon is way better.
The IK Thermal Cannon is way better than the Heavy Wraithcannon by virtue of being more versatile. Extra shots against 5+ models and 2 dice pick highest damage against big targets make it good at both roles.
Crusaderobr wrote: Would you recommend the Wraithknight with suncannon/scattershield with shuricannons in this edition? Thinking about picking one up. People on this forum were saying its too pricey but honestly, looking at it and comparing it to the other big shots in other armies it looks rather comparable, assuming you have plenty of anti tank in your army as a whole.
I think I would still prefer the dual Heavy Wraithcannon version with Scatter Lasers on the shoulders. The WK ignores the -1 to hit for moving and firing heavy weapons which means the usual rationale for taking Shuricannons does not apply to it (put them elsewhere). Also the 36" range of the Scatter lasers synergises well with that of the Heavy Wraithcannons.
Yes the WK is pricey compared to a Knight but he can benefit from army Buffs that IKs do not get. The best solution to this is to make sure he gets those buffs. With his size and firepower, he benefits disproportionately from Guide and Fortune so put a Farseer near him to keep those powers on him if you can. Yes it is extra points but he really benefits from the buffs, you need HQs anyway in most formations and the Farseer can buff other units if the WK dies or is not under pressure. Also the Farseer can dispel so is never wasted.
I would run the Heavy Wraithcannon Knight in a mechanised force with plenty of Shuricannon Serpents. The Serpents provide mobility, protection for your infantry and plenty of anti-infantry firepower. If your opponent charges them, they can disengage while still firing at full effect thanks to "Fly". Your WK and maybe a unit of Fire Dragons can then provide your anti-tank needs. I would run something like this.
Spoiler:
HQ 161 Farseer Skyrunner with Witchblade
HQ 94 Autarch with Jump generator, Fusion Gun and power sword
Troops 97 10 Guardians with Shuricannon platform
Transport 143 Wave Serpent with triple Shuricannons
Troops 97 10 Guardians with Shuricannon platform
Transport 143 Wave Serpent with triple Shuricannons
Troops 100 5 Rangers
Elite 125 5 Fire Dragons, Exarch with Fire Pike
Transport 159 Wave Serpent with Shuricannon and twin Brightlances
LoW 532 Wraithknight with 2 Heavy Wraithcannons and 2 Scatter Lasers
That comes to about 1650 points. Depending on your points levels, you can choose what to take for the rest. The Farseer buffs the WK while the Autarch hangs just behind the Wave Serpents to boost their shooting. The WK can hurtle forward Shooting and Charging and stomping all over stuff before withdrawing to rinse and repeat.
The lists I've written with the Wraithknight have been similar. Dual cannon Knight and 4 Serpents with Firedragons, Wraithguard, and Guardians. You're probably going first and you rush the serpents forwards, shooting the shuricannons and WK at the enemies anti tank. That gives you a good chance of the WK not being dropped right off the bat.
While it would overwhelm some armies anti tank I always think: 15 lascannons could kill the knight turn 1.
Rangers are incredibly expensive for what they do. It takes on average 9 Ranger shots to kill a T3 W3 5+ character, and you're spending 200 points for that. Taking a single squad will almost never do anything, since putting wounds on characters doesn't matter if you can't finish the job.
Wyldcarde wrote:How much are people paying for their hemlocks? 211 or 221?
Originally battlescribe had them costing 211 not having to pay for the spirit stone upgrade as it wasn't listed in the equipment list on the hemlock. Now it has updated and is costing an extra 10 points paying for the spirit stones.
I can see why it would be both ways.
Goobi2 wrote:Hemlock Spirit Stones are like Autarch Forceshields, they are abilities not wargear. You dont have to pay for abilities, so you shouldn't charge yourself for Hemlock Stones.
Galef wrote:On the Autarch and Force shield: until FAQ'd in the Xenos 1 Index, there is no indication that you have to pay the 8pts. "Force Shield" is an ability that Autarchs have and should not be confused with "Force Shield" that is WARGEAR for Wraith Blades.
One is an ability, the other is wargear. You do not pay for abilities.
It may be intended for Autarchs to have it listed as part of their wargear, but it isn't
So in regards to the above. FAQs aren't errata. FAQs are answers to questions. I think an FAQ that was answered as seen in one situation, does apply to ALL situations like it... for better or for worse ( in this case worse, as the hemlock would be 221 then!) GW did say.. in all instances of "other wargear" .. i don't think they meant just for index imperium 1.
Martel732 wrote:"If the intention was to account for the potential buffs a WK can get, those points should be added to the buffing unit, not the WK itself." Then there would be complaining about the cost of Eldar psykers. You have to pay for your cheese on one end or the other.
As much as you have been bashed on a few notes... I don't think you are wrong with this... Should this be how it is done.. maybe not.. but I tend to agree that the tax is spread out over the book to keep the cost of psykers and other buffers down.
Selym wrote:The Dire Avengers are 10ppm plus 7ppm for their ASC. GW separated the price like this so that other units do not have to pay differing costs for the same weapons, except that only the DA use ASC. Really, the DA should be around 14-15ppm, and the ASC should be 0ppm, given the current listbuilding method. Here's a fun fact though, a DA Exarch with power glaive and shuriken pistol is 14 points. Weird.
So.. I really like dire avengers. I think 10ppm for what they are is spot on when compared to other "models" cost. You get +1 L and bs5 overwatch for 2pts over a guardian.. Seems about right. (also that tax we mentioned.. exarchs and phoenix lords and all). I think the true culprit is actually the Avenger Catapult. 7pts is definitely harsh. And probably should be about 5pts. There seems to be a high modifier in GWs algorithm when it comes to range and number of shots when it comes to weapons. and I think that is why we also see the starcannon as a bit overcosted (i think it probably fits the bill for about 25pts rather than 30pts ... but i am sure people will still think that is too much).
In any case I think the Eldar community as whole has generally been pretty poor so far. Is it just me that feels this way? Like the majority I read is just complaints about how we can't use these awesome (definitely undercosted) units from 7ed. Eldar are fine, we have strong combos and good units for the cost. Do we have suboptimal units for once.. sure.. good! so does everyone else. Get some lucky dice, and start being good generals instead of complaining about what you dont have! Be positive!
While it would overwhelm some armies anti tank I always think: 15 lascannons could kill the knight turn 1.
I don't think 15 Lascannons would do it in 1 turn (although it depends on the BS of the shooters). The WK has 24 Wounds behind a 6+ save (assuming LCs with AP-3). Let's assume shooters with BS3+ so you are hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s with each failed save causing on average 3.5 wounds. I make that 18.5 lascannon shots to drop a WK.
IG might be able to do that but they are mostly BS4+ so about 25 lascannons. A lot of armies will struggle to level that kind of firepower and that assumes the Farseer has not cast Fortune on the WK. 25 Lascannons all needing range and LOS is not that easy, particuarly if you deploy a WK on a flank. To be fair, that number of anti-tank shots will probably kill 500-ish points of pretty much any armour that an opponent deploys so it is not as if this is a specific counter to a WK.
If you face someone who can spam lots of Lascannons, chances are that you will finish your deployment first and hence take the first turn. That means you have a chance to Fortune the WK and hopefully put some holes in opposing units that can damage him. Also if your opponent concentrates his AT fire on the WK then those Wave Serpents can get up close and unload their cargo. Shuricat fire will shred Guardsmen and Guardians can even outfight them in close combat (not many foes they can make that claim against). So if your opponent does focus on the WK, he will be getting 40 Shuricat shots + 30 Shuricannon shots into his infantry next turn along with whatever the Fire Dragons bring to the party. Even a conscript blob will start to melt under that kind of fire.. Then most of the army can charge which will reduce his firepower next turn.
Of course if the WK actually survives it will then take a further toll on the army by shooting again and charging.
As much as dual wraithcannons dish out the pain I prefer the suncannon with shield on the wraithknight for the invulnerable save. Makes him 30% more survivable without giving up all his firepower. The titanic feet are fine in combat without the glaive anyway.
So far my experience with vehicles is that vehicles without inv saves are ok but the invulnerable ones are annoyingly difficult to deal with.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or just take the skartarch wraithknight and deepstrike
Wyldcarde wrote: As much as dual wraithcannons dish out the pain I prefer the suncannon with shield on the wraithknight for the invulnerable save. Makes him 30% more survivable without giving up all his firepower.
It only increases his survivability against weapons with AP-3 or better. Even against lascannons, it is a 5+ save against a 6+. If you opponent is firing Krak missiles at him, the Shield won't do anything for him unfortunately. For me the opportunity cost of another heavy weapon is why the shield does not appeal much.
Also the Suncannon looks very disappointing when compared to the Rapidfire Battlecannon (which is cheaper). The Suncannon will eb wounding most vehicles on a 5+ whereas the RFBC will be wounding most of them on a 3+ (as well as MEQs on a 2+). The extra point of AP on the Suncannon is not enough to make it worthwhile. It was an underperforming weapon in 7th and continues to be so in 8th.
Yes but the times it will go down in 1 turn are the times it will cop melta guns and lascannons and other -4 ap weapons. Being able to shrug off even 2 of those big shots should get it into close combat where you can jump in and out of combat.
Wraithcannon damage output is significant tho. It comes down to what else is in the army and the role you want for the wraithknight.
Wyldcarde wrote: Yes but the times it will go down in 1 turn are the times it will cop melta guns and lascannons and other -4 ap weapons.
Meltacide is easily countered by bubble wrapping. You only need a few extra models to make sure they cannot land within 12" of the WK. I honestly think it will not be easy to bring to bear the kind of firepower that will bring down a Knight in 1 turn provided you are a bit careful with your positioning.
Wyldcarde wrote: Yes but the times it will go down in 1 turn are the times it will cop melta guns and lascannons and other -4 ap weapons.
Meltacide is easily countered by bubble wrapping. You only need a few extra models to make sure they cannot land within 12" of the WK. I honestly think it will not be easy to bring to bear the kind of firepower that will bring down a Knight in 1 turn provided you are a bit careful with your positioning.
The only real threat I think for a turn 1 wipe would be a shadowsword, cobra, or scorpion.
Certainly with the Word of the Phoenix ruling, I'm not sure it's that necessary to take down a Wraithknight in one turn. It doesn't have a whole lot of firepower until it gets close enough to charge. It's putting out something that's only a little better than 4 Lascannon shots, plus its heavy weapons -- lots of stuff has comparable firepower for about half the cost. If you attach a Farseer to it for Guide and Fortune you significantly increase its cost. So far I haven't had much trouble killing Wraithknights before they caused too much trouble, even with Necrons (it did charge some Warriors on turn 3 before dying, but I would have had much more trouble if the Eldar player had had just brought more firepower to help kill the Warriors starting on turn 1).
Dionysodorus wrote: Certainly with the Word of the Phoenix ruling, I'm not sure it's that necessary to take down a Wraithknight in one turn. It doesn't have a whole lot of firepower until it gets close enough to charge. It's putting out something that's only a little better than 4 Lascannon shots, plus its heavy weapons -- lots of stuff has comparable firepower for about half the cost. If you attach a Farseer to it for Guide and Fortune you significantly increase its cost. So far I haven't had much trouble killing Wraithknights before they caused too much trouble, even with Necrons (it did charge some Warriors on turn 3 before dying, but I would have had much more trouble if the Eldar player had had just brought more firepower to help kill the Warriors starting on turn 1).
yep, with most of the super heavies you are generally better off dealing with their support first. it is an objective game after all.
I think I prefer the Vampire Hunter if we're talking Forgeworld stuff. It's nearly as durable for its cost on wounds alone, but then also gets Hard to Hit and the ability to actually move far enough to get a 4++ and still shoot. Its main gun is pretty similar to the Scorpion's and then it adds another really solid 8 shots.
I'm going off the assumption that the Damage=3 on the Twin Scorpion Pulsar was a typo, that it's meant to have the same D6 damage as the other superheavy Pulsars (like in previous editions). The weapon notes in both the profile and the appendix make it pretty clear that it's D6 damage (+1D6 on 6's to wound). That said even if it was errata'd to Damage3 (and notes removed) it would still be powerful, considering Starcannons got nerfed.
IMHO Scorpion is still better than both the Revenant and the Vampire Hunter, and point-for-point even better than the Phantom. Vampire Hunter has the flyer restrictions so movement is more problematic (thankfully firing arcs being gone is better) and due to how big the base usually is for a Vampire, movement is difficult to control - the 50% increase in points with no change in damage output may not make it too much better than faster movement and more wounds.
2 Scorpions will always out-shoot a similarly costed 1 Revenant. And four scorpions would out-shoot a similarly costed 1 Phantom! WTF happened to the super phantom Pulsar? Phantom Pulsar has the same number of shots as every other superheavy pulsar, and the the better -5 AP is pointless because if a target superheavy unit has saves it'll be using invuls anyway at this point. It still wounds 95% of the big vehicles (T8+) in the game on 3's.
I don't think Vampire has that many problems with it's movement due to Wings of Khaine. If for some reason you don't want to make your minimal move, you can declare Hover too.
Wings of Kain helps, but I mainly meant physical movement and placing it. With such a large heavy model, you need a pretty big base for the Vampire. I have one and used a large base as shown in this pic - I may have been able to gone a little narrower and weighed it down, but anyone with a large flyer on a flying base will be wary of getting the center of gravity too high.
(yes, this is technically a Vampire Raider with scatch-made Pulsars, from the end of 7th when they were 1 Vehicle. It was a quick conversion and I'm acquiring a Revenant to steal the real Pulsars).)
I don't really follow. Wings of Khaine and 48" guns mean that you can literally just swing back and forth along a table edge. You have some reason to move up next to what you want to shoot, if possible, but all you're getting out of that is BS2+ rather than 3+. And you can just sit still and shoot at 2+ if there's nothing very dangerous around.
And the Vampire has way more firepower than the Scorpion. Their main guns are essentially identical -- you expect 14 really high-quality shots. And then the Vampire gets an extra 8 almost- bright lance shots. This is 30% more firepower even against a Land Raider, or 62.5% more firepower if it hovers and doesn't move or uses its CTM (though against non-Titans you're probably shooting at multiple targets). I'm assuming that the Scorpion is moving in order to get an invulnerable save; I expect that mostly you will want both moving every turn. The Vampire looks even better against T7 with a worse save or an invulnerable save. And it only costs 37% more than a pretty minimally-upgraded Scorpion (CTM, spirit stones, shuriken cannon).
My argument for Scorpion over Vampire Hunter is their total cost and nothing to do with effectiveness for their cost.
There has to be a "rest of the army" after either one is purchased. Scorpion gives me more of that while still providing the basic thing I needed either of them doing, eg. killing big things.
DarknessEternal wrote: My argument for Scorpion over Vampire Hunter is their total cost and nothing to do with effectiveness for their cost.
There has to be a "rest of the army" after either one is purchased. Scorpion gives me more of that while still providing the basic thing I needed either of them doing, eg. killing big things.
I like flyer models.. but the Scorpion model is dope AF for a 40k tank
In any case I think the Eldar community as whole has generally been pretty poor so far. Is it just me that feels this way? Like the majority I read is just complaints about how we can't use these awesome (definitely undercosted) units from 7ed. Eldar are fine, we have strong combos and good units for the cost. Do we have suboptimal units for once.. sure.. good! so does everyone else. Get some lucky dice, and start being good generals instead of complaining about what you dont have! Be positive!
Lol. I dunno about you but the people I play against are good players. Playing with an inferior codex against good players is not a recipe for success. The Eldar codex is not competitive. In addition to not being competitive it does not play like the Eldar of old. I've been playing since 3rd edition. 8th edition feels like biggest mismatch between rules and fluff I've seen.
I've never played an edition where my grav tanks were static bunkers because they can't shoot effectively when the move. Meanwhile land raiders are driving around 12" a turn like they just don't care. Cause they don't. I've also never seen a game where my guardians couldn't move and shoot their heavy weapons platforms. I've never seen a book where Eldar didn't have fleet. A 1 inch greater movement isn't cutting it as a replacement for fleet. No re-rolls for charge distance really hurts. Especially more so when I see *entire* armies with re-roll charge.
This army isn't fun to play. It isn't fun to see other armies with 3++ storm shield that are 5 points. While 4++ force shields are 8 points. It isn't fun to see the WK and IK share a stat line but the WK is ~100 points more for no reason. It isn't fun to see that GW has refused to fix Guardians yet again. They've been a stupid unit since the 4th edition rulebook dropped. 12" range is a non-starter. A grenade has a range of 6" meaning their guns can only shoot twice as far as they can throw? Is that a joke? It feels like one.
The changes to psychic powers also really hurt. I can't use more than one farseers, or warlock, or spiritseer in any of my lists. I have 7ish farseer models. 6 of them are useless. I've got one tournament at the end of the month I'll playing Eldar for and then I'm probably quitting Eldar until their codex comes out.
Rough man. Unfortunately we will have to agree to disagree. I and the other Eldar players in my area seem to be having a ball. and I have had many good games with few losses.
I play pretty aggressive, so even my tanks are running up the field with me. crystals and guide are great for limiting the heavy weapon penalties.
I run Ynnari, maybe that is where things change for me, having such a mix of different mobile platforms from all the availability.
In any case I think the Eldar community as whole has generally been pretty poor so far. Is it just me that feels this way? Like the majority I read is just complaints about how we can't use these awesome (definitely undercosted) units from 7ed. Eldar are fine, we have strong combos and good units for the cost. Do we have suboptimal units for once.. sure.. good! so does everyone else. Get some lucky dice, and start being good generals instead of complaining about what you dont have! Be positive!
Lol. I dunno about you but the people I play against are good players. Playing with an inferior codex against good players is not a recipe for success. The Eldar codex is not competitive. In addition to not being competitive it does not play like the Eldar of old. I've been playing since 3rd edition. 8th edition feels like biggest mismatch between rules and fluff I've seen.
I've never played an edition where my grav tanks were static bunkers because they can't shoot effectively when the move. Meanwhile land raiders are driving around 12" a turn like they just don't care. Cause they don't. I've also never seen a game where my guardians couldn't move and shoot their heavy weapons platforms. I've never seen a book where Eldar didn't have fleet. A 1 inch greater movement isn't cutting it as a replacement for fleet. No re-rolls for charge distance really hurts. Especially more so when I see *entire* armies with re-roll charge.
This army isn't fun to play. It isn't fun to see other armies with 3++ storm shield that are 5 points. While 4++ force shields are 8 points. It isn't fun to see the WK and IK share a stat line but the WK is ~100 points more for no reason. It isn't fun to see that GW has refused to fix Guardians yet again. They've been a stupid unit since the 4th edition rulebook dropped. 12" range is a non-starter. A grenade has a range of 6" meaning their guns can only shoot twice as far as they can throw? Is that a joke? It feels like one.
The changes to psychic powers also really hurt. I can't use more than one farseers, or warlock, or spiritseer in any of my lists. I have 7ish farseer models. 6 of them are useless. I've got one tournament at the end of the month I'll playing Eldar for and then I'm probably quitting Eldar until their codex comes out.
What list do you typically run? Maybe we can all give you some improvements. Always good to have different set of eyes o7
My list which i have had success with thus far in short form.
Yncarne
Farseer (or 2 warlocks)
2x dire avengers
2x wave serpants
3x windriders
2x incubi
2x raiders
hemlock
are swooping hawks better at taking out an assassin than rangers?
Curious as I have yet to see an assassin set up 'smartly' behind enemy lines. They normally set up behind a couple units away from the main force. Just poor deployment I guess
So is it just me or are Crimson Hunters bad at their jobs?
This is supposed to be our dedicated AA, right? But against other aircraft, it's hitting on 4s most of the time. Seems like the Hemlock is just better in every way, even at the job that the Crimson Hunter is supposedly specifically designed to perform.
Temujin wrote: Crimson Hunters have bs2+, way more range, and reroll wounds vs flyers. They're both good.
Right. But Crimson Hunters must move at least 20" each turn. Which means they hit on 3+, because their weapons are Heavy. And most other aircraft are going to be benefiting from Hard to Hit, which means they hit on 4+. And suddenly it's not looking quite so rosy, even when you can reroll wounds.
Temujin wrote: Crimson Hunters have bs2+, way more range, and reroll wounds vs flyers. They're both good.
Right. But Crimson Hunters must move at least 20" each turn. Which means they hit on 3+, because their weapons are Heavy. And most other aircraft are going to be benefiting from Hard to Hit, which means they hit on 4+. And suddenly it's not looking quite so rosy, even when you can reroll wounds.
Expected wounds vs storm talon
Crimson Hunter 2 pulse cannon shots 2*(1/2)*(2/3)*(5/6)*3=1.67 + 2 Brightlances 2*(1/2)*(2/3)*3.5=2.333 or about 4 wounds to a flyer on average. Also its worth noting that guide doesnt help you much because you reroll before modifiers so you only get to reroll 1s
Hemlock 2 heavy dscythe - 2*2*(2/3)*2 = 5.33
So math wise the hemlock is better at killing flyers because of the auto hit but it is also almost 40 more points and much lower range. The Hemlock does also have smite and a negative aura though which will probably be worth the point change. If the Hunter is an exarch or has guide its expected wounds will go up by about .67
So yeah the hemlock is at least as good if not better at killing flyers
Expected wounds vs storm talon
Crimson Hunter 2 pulse cannon shots 2*(1/2)*(2/3)*(5/6)*3=1.67 + 2 Brightlances 2*(1/2)*(2/3)*3.5=2.333 or about 4 wounds to a flyer on average. Also its worth noting that guide doesnt help you much because you reroll before modifiers so you only get to reroll 1s
Hemlock 2 heavy dscythe - 2*2*(2/3)*2 = 5.33
So math wise the hemlock is better at killing flyers because of the auto hit but it is also almost 40 more points and much lower range. The Hemlock does also have smite and a negative aura though which will probably be worth the point change. If the Hunter is an exarch or has guide its expected wounds will go up by about .67
So yeah the hemlock is at least as good if not better at killing flyers
I don't think you're accounting for the Hunter re-rolling wounds. That bumps the Hunter up to 5.33 wounds too. The Hemlock's Smite still puts it over the top but I don't think the choice is obvious given the Hemlock's much shorter range.
Marsyas wrote:So is it just me or are Crimson Hunters bad at their jobs?
This is supposed to be our dedicated AA, right? But against other aircraft, it's hitting on 4s most of the time. Seems like the Hemlock is just better in every way, even at the job that the Crimson Hunter is supposedly specifically designed to perform.
Yeah pretty much. I've actually never found it useful for killing flyers. One of my coolest models but its never actually been effective at it's job. 8th edition has not that changed that. It's nice that you could use a command point to try to get more damage on a bright lance hit. It just doesn't deal enough damage to one shot an enemy flyer. In my experience you have to one shot them as the Crimson Hunter is always high on the target priority list for some reason.
Temujin wrote: Crimson Hunters have bs2+, way more range, and reroll wounds vs flyers. They're both good.
Right. But Crimson Hunters must move at least 20" each turn. Which means they hit on 3+, because their weapons are Heavy. And most other aircraft are going to be benefiting from Hard to Hit, which means they hit on 4+. And suddenly it's not looking quite so rosy, even when you can reroll wounds.
. Also its worth noting that guide doesnt help you much because you reroll before modifiers so you only get to reroll 1s
I'm not sure where this comes from but that's totally wrong. Guide allows you to re-roll failed to hit rolls. The only time modifiers affect re-rolls is when they specify a particular number on the die. For instance having a re-roll ones while also having a minus one to hit. You still reroll the ones, not the twos. Regardless of modifiers, guide gives the ability to reroll hits. If you don't hit you re-roll. There's nothing else there.
I'm not sure where this comes from but that's totally wrong. Guide allows you to re-roll failed to hit rolls. The only time modifiers affect re-rolls is when they specify a particular number on the die. For instance having a re-roll ones while also having a minus one to hit. You still reroll the ones, not the twos. Regardless of modifiers, guide gives the ability to reroll hits. If you don't hit you re-roll. There's nothing else there.
Guide allows you to re-roll failed hit rolls. The Designers' Commentary is explicit that re-rolls always happen before modifiers. They do not specifically address abilities that allow re-rolling of failures rather than of a specific number, and this is probably worth asking them about, but everyone else has been taking this to mean that re-roll failure abilities work based on the unmodified BS.
Marsyas wrote:So is it just me or are Crimson Hunters bad at their jobs?
This is supposed to be our dedicated AA, right? But against other aircraft, it's hitting on 4s most of the time. Seems like the Hemlock is just better in every way, even at the job that the Crimson Hunter is supposedly specifically designed to perform.
Yeah pretty much. I've actually never found it useful for killing flyers. One of my coolest models but its never actually been effective at it's job. 8th edition has not that changed that. It's nice that you could use a command point to try to get more damage on a bright lance hit. It just doesn't deal enough damage to one shot an enemy flyer. In my experience you have to one shot them as the Crimson Hunter is always high on the target priority list for some reason.
Temujin wrote: Crimson Hunters have bs2+, way more range, and reroll wounds vs flyers. They're both good.
Right. But Crimson Hunters must move at least 20" each turn. Which means they hit on 3+, because their weapons are Heavy. And most other aircraft are going to be benefiting from Hard to Hit, which means they hit on 4+. And suddenly it's not looking quite so rosy, even when you can reroll wounds.
. Also its worth noting that guide doesnt help you much because you reroll before modifiers so you only get to reroll 1s
I'm not sure where this comes from but that's totally wrong. Guide allows you to re-roll failed to hit rolls. The only time modifiers affect re-rolls is when they specify a particular number on the die. For instance having a re-roll ones while also having a minus one to hit. You still reroll the ones, not the twos. Regardless of modifiers, guide gives the ability to reroll hits. If you don't hit you re-roll. There's nothing else there.
Rerolls are always before modifiers.
Assuming BS2+, -1 to hit, and an ability to reroll misses. You roll a 2. Before modifiers, a 2 is not a miss, so you can't reroll it. However, after you apply the modifier, the 2 becomes a 1, and is therefore a miss. So guide is indeed pretty bad on a BS2+ model with penalties to hit.
Rerolls are always before modifiers.
Assuming BS2+, -1 to hit, and an ability to reroll misses. You roll a 2. Before modifiers, a 2 is not a miss, so you can't reroll it. However, after you apply the modifier, the 2 becomes a 1, and is therefore a miss. So guide is indeed pretty bad on a BS2+ model with penalties to hit.
That's completely asinine, but what can one noble aspect warrior do against such GW designer's lunacy.
How does everyone feel about model-mass in 8th Ed for Eldar?
At my area we usually play 1k to 1.5k matches.
At 1k I'm planning on running 20 Guardians, 2 wave serpents, 2 Hemlocks.
At 1.5k I have 30 Guards, 3 wave serpents, and 2 hemlocks.
The thing I'm most scared about is, will this be enough model mass at these points ranges? Am I sinking too many points into Hemlocks?
I think its ok for probably our average game. you have the bodies and shots to put out. The serps can be equipped with your AT weapons and Hemlocks fill a few roles. Just experiment. We can talk about what the best 'net' list is all day long, but if you take the best list and give it to 2 people to use, one guy might lose every game and the other might not. I have found 8th more reliant on the general than 7th in that regard.
What HQ choices do you have? I would consider a farseer (walking) or 2-3 warlocks. Guardians with conceal have a decent save, and better still if in cover.
Shadenuat wrote:
Spoiler:
Rerolls are always before modifiers.
Assuming BS2+, -1 to hit, and an ability to reroll misses. You roll a 2. Before modifiers, a 2 is not a miss, so you can't reroll it. However, after you apply the modifier, the 2 becomes a 1, and is therefore a miss. So guide is indeed pretty bad on a BS2+ model with penalties to hit.
That's completely asinine, but what can one noble aspect warrior do against such GW designer's [MOD EDIT - Please find a different way to express yourself. - Alpharius].
Harsh man. So let's think about it. d6 system right, so you have limits. The reason you reroll before modifiers is to prevent the overall system becoming too powerful. You still benefit from the reroll, but the defensive unit still benefits from their special rule as well.. otherwise, its almost negligible that the defensive unit even had any special rules. Does this make some odd situations? (like your crimson hunter example only being able to reroll 1s) Absolutely. But both units still benefit for having their special rules and that is what the system was designed to do.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karhedron wrote: Unlike 7th, flyers do not counter other flyers particularly well unless they have something like the Stormhawk's "Interceptor" special rule.
Yeah flyer on flyer combat can be rough. But if you look across the entire range of other indexes, the crimson hunter albeit not the best flyer is still one of the best AA flyers. Many flyers are hitting others on 5+ or worse!
I have some random questions about Autarch loadouts.
1) I assume I can take a fusion pistol and a fusion gun- this seems fine.
2) In the Autarch wargear list some weapons are noted with "a model can only carry one of these weapons" so I can only take one fusion gun, but can I take a fusion gun and a reaper launcher?
Three S8 D6 damage shots hitting on 2's rerolled is not bad.
I think the most accurate flyer vs. others is Nightwing while ramming into enemy flyer to activate both CTM and Extended Wings - although it's armanent could have been better.
Our best anti air are Dark Reapers with Yvraine.
1) I assume I can take a fusion pistol and a fusion gun- this seems fine.
Yeah but a model can only either shoot all of it's weapon(s) or all of it's pistols - not together.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: 2) In the Autarch wargear list some weapons are noted with "a model can only carry one of these weapons" so I can only take one fusion gun, but can I take a fusion gun and a reaper launcher?
No. Fusion gun, reaper and lasblaster are all marked with "you may only take one of this weapon". You can take a fusion pistol instead of shurikan .. and then 2 additional weapons from the autarch list... for example.. Reaper Launcher and avenger catapult. Which is kinda funny to have a guy jumping around with three guns.
Yeah unfortunately so. I have found Autarchs to be a little meh so far. I am hoping the relics and more custom warlord traits from the Codex books will help resolve that. The reroll 1s bubble is ok.. but I haven't really found it better than taking warlocks or Farseers. Might just be me Anyone else having success with them?
I think the reroll 1s will be better than guide if you can effect multiple units.
For 128pts you get an Autarch on a bike with laser lance and fusion gun. up to 6 high strenght high AP multi damage attacks that hit on 2s rerolled. hmm
Edit: you have to pay another 10pts for the twin shuricat so 138pts but he can shoot them as well as the melta and lance.
Similar price to a Farseer, still does some buffing but can put out a lot of hurt by himself. The character rule makes him a little like the old biketarch with rerolled 2+ cover from 6th(?).
I wrote Autarchs off at first but that guy is getting some testing
Yeah unfortunately so. I have found Autarchs to be a little meh so far. I am hoping the relics and more custom warlord traits from the Codex books will help resolve that. The reroll 1s bubble is ok.. but I haven't really found it better than taking warlocks or Farseers. Might just be me Anyone else having success with them?
Seeing as you're only allowed to cast Guide once per turn regardless of how many Farseers you bring, the Autarch bubble is a pretty big deal.
pm713 wrote: Has anyone got any experience of mirrorswords? I'm not sure whether to use those or just a power sword on my exarch.
I honestly haven't understood the point of Banshees ever since they made power swords AP 3 instead of just "ignores armor" however many editions ago. The don't have enough attacks to kill hordes, they don't have enough strength to kill tough enemies, their AP isn't particularly special. They are fast and can thankfully charge out of wave serpents again, but they still need that serpent, and everyone attacking out of transports is fast.
They had a niche as TEQ-killers forever ago, but they haven't been useful for anything at all for a long time, imho.
I just proxy them as Harlequins. I still really like the models
Grizzyzz wrote: You can take a fusion pistol instead of shurikan .. and then 2 additional weapons from the autarch list... for example.. Reaper Launcher and avenger catapult. Which is kinda funny to have a guy jumping around with three guns.
3 guns? I see your 3 and raise you 5: Autarch Skyrunner with laser lance and any other ranged weapon from the Autarch list He can fire the following: 1 ShurikenlFusion pistol (no thanks) or 1 Sunburst grenade (no thanks) or His bike's Twin cats, Laser lance & which ever third gun you equipped him with. I personally like the Death Spinner as it synergizes better with the Twin Cats and I really don't want him near targets that need Fusion gunned. It is also much cheaper. He is my mini-gunboat that goes stays near my Windriders and goes after isolated targets or units that get too close to my Windriders
So is everyone on the Howling banshee < Harlequin troupe train?
I feel like there ability to always attack first plus with a warlock making them a total of -2 to hit in the fight phase makes them interesting for protecting ranged units
Grizzyzz wrote: You can take a fusion pistol instead of shurikan .. and then 2 additional weapons from the autarch list... for example.. Reaper Launcher and avenger catapult. Which is kinda funny to have a guy jumping around with three guns.
3 guns? I see your 3 and raise you 5: Autarch Skyrunner with laser lance and any other ranged weapon from the Autarch list
He can fire the following:
1 ShurikenlFusion pistol (no thanks) or
1 Sunburst grenade (no thanks) or
His bike's Twin cats, Laser lance & which ever third gun you equipped him with. I personally like the Death Spinner as it synergizes better with the Twin Cats and I really don't what him near targets that need Fusion gunned. It is also much cheaper.
He is my mini-gunboat that goes stays near my Windriders and goes after isolated targets or units that get too close to my Windriders
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NICE, that is good idea. I am hoping for some sweet relics. I miss my Iyanden Soul Shard for my level up Autarch :(
deathdancer wrote: So is everyone on the Howling banshee < Harlequin troupe train?
I feel like there ability to always attack first plus with a warlock making them a total of -2 to hit in the fight phase makes them interesting for protecting ranged units
1. They don't always attack first.
2. Warlocks aren't Banshees.
3. How would Banshees protect ranged units?
4. Assuming protecting ranged units with Banshees is a thing (which it isn't), why would you need to spend points on Banshees to accomplish that?
djones520 wrote: So have you guys noticed the huge disparity in our power levels and points?
For my ATC team, 2000 point armies, everyone else on my team is at PL100 or higher.
I'm at PL 75.
That is a huge difference. So either our guys are way under costed PL wise, or they're way over costed point wise.
generally speaking it is points wise overcosted. I still think the Dire Avengers having to buy their gun has got to somehow be a misprint or oversight on gw part.... 17 points per model for 3+ 3+ S3 T3 A1 1W 4+ armor w/ 18" 2 shot str 4 ap0 D1 gun is absolutely ludicrous.
a tac marine is 3+ 3+ S4 T4 A1 1W 3+ w/ 24" rapid fire 1 apo D1 weapons.... for 13 points per model
djones520 wrote: So have you guys noticed the huge disparity in our power levels and points?
For my ATC team, 2000 point armies, everyone else on my team is at PL100 or higher.
I'm at PL 75.
That is a huge difference. So either our guys are way under costed PL wise, or they're way over costed point wise.
generally speaking it is points wise overcosted. I still think the Dire Avengers having to buy their gun has got to somehow be a misprint or oversight on gw part.... 17 points per model for 3+ 3+ S3 T3 A1 1W 4+ armor w/ 18" 2 shot str 4 ap0 D1 gun is absolutely ludicrous.
a tac marine is 3+ 3+ S4 T4 A1 1W 3+ w/ 24" rapid fire 1 apo D1 weapons.... for 13 points per model
Dire Avengers are definitely an oversight, but overall 95% of units have a PL equal to the average of their lowest points cost and highest points cost divided by 20, then rounded
Given me an example and I will prove it. I need a unit's lowest cost with standard wargear, and their absolute highest cost without adding models to the unit. Then give my their Power level Here's an Eldar example: 3 Windriders at their lowest (twin cats) are 90pts. 3 with Scatter lasers (highest cost) are 105 That averages to 97.5 pts. Divide by 20 = 4.875, rounded to 5. 3 Windriders happen to be PL5
Here's a Daemon example: 10 Daemonettes are 90pts (lowest cost) 10 with an Icon and Instrument are 125 Average is 107.5 /20 = 5.375 or PL5
I've run this formula on tons of units and have only found Dire Avengers and Brimstone Horrors to radically deviate (DAs are having lower PL and Brims having much higher PL). The issue for Eldar is that our average/20 tends to be rounded up. Other units from other armies tend to round down This seems to create effect of Eldar having a higher PL to points.
@ Djones: I am really curious what your army list consists of. It really should be around 100PL or higher just like your ATC team. Do you take a bunch of Dire Avengers?
The 2k Eldar list I played last Sunday was 115 PL, but I'm notoriously stingy on the wargear.
I think my autarch (on bike) might have been my MVP of the game. The buff bubble was huge. I also had a farseer, who was doing the guide/doom thing, but he could only guide one unit a turn. The autarch was routinely buffing 3-5. And when I needed something CC’d to death, he was there with the laser lance.
I might experiment with the gear, as I didn’t invest a lot into him. But I’ll keep him in my lists for the foreseeable future.
My opinion: at the very least they bring the best eldar battle tank into the army. Clowns give you a tougher Vyper.
I only played 2 games with Banshees so far though, but they brought their points back both times.
On the autarch vs farseer debate and whether autarch reroll 1s bubble is better than guide.
It's kind of a moot point. Guide is probably a farseers weakest tool (though shadow spectres and a couple of other units make it pretty damn good). You are taking the farseer for the ability to take doom and basically guarantee the most important enemy unit dies. All the firepower a autarch brings is almost a wash with the straight up mortal wounds brought by smite as well.
As with any eldar units it depends what you are synergising with as to what the best buff hq is, but doom is one of eldars biggest weapons.
Wyldcarde wrote: On the autarch vs farseer debate and whether autarch reroll 1s bubble is better than guide.
It's kind of a moot point. Guide is probably a farseers weakest tool (though shadow spectres and a couple of other units make it pretty damn good). You are taking the farseer for the ability to take doom and basically guarantee the most important enemy unit dies. All the firepower a autarch brings is almost a wash with the straight up mortal wounds brought by smite as well.
As with any eldar units it depends what you are synergising with as to what the best buff hq is, but doom is one of eldars biggest weapons.
This. Yesterday I had a Lord of Skulls get warptimed to me, and down my Wraithknight before I could even move. I had one of the most dangerous models in the game, in my lines.
One application of Doom, and it was gone.
I keep the Farseer home with my Dark Reapers to guide them, so the Autarch can advance with the Guardians/Fire Dragons and buff them. It's very synergistic.
@ Djones: I am really curious what your army list consists of. It really should be around 100PL or higher just like your ATC team. Do you take a bunch of Dire Avengers?
-
So, chalk this whole thing up to Battlescribe being real janky. I "rewrote" the list, and it came up at PL 98 this time.
wanted to try Vaul's DCanons, despite the huge cost for just 4 wounds.
Was going to hide them behind waveserpents and use the transport as a mini los blocking tool.
But of course I got a tyranid horde player.
Don't think I will take Vaul's DCanons again
To be fair, I rolled a heck of a game and he did not.
After his hive tyrant and 5 of his 7 guard made it into combat, the banshees with the aid of a warlock and autarch killed all but 2 of the tyrant guard. He finally smited the last banshee and slaughtered the warlock and the autarch fled with 1 wound.
On my last turn I toasted 2 of the guard, the hive tyrant, 22 or so termagaunts, and the big monster that regens 10 termaguants a round. My fusion guns, and EML plus smite finally pulled them all down, then everything ran into the 22 guants and killed 9 and with no hive node another 10 fled.
After a full game of on my heels, the elder had a great round and almost cleared the board!
The Banshees had a good show with fortune. Normally I would save that for the WW but the only thing that wore me down was the Exocrine and the mortal wounds from the 3 biovores.
The genestealers were rough and the ripperswarms, but the swooping hawks made a nice sacrifice to rip a big whole. Only the Genestealer Brood Leader was a pain.
The Dark Reapers were made to kill the 8 man Tyranid warrior squad.
this is the first game that my War Walkers did not kill their points.
Again the Wave Serpents were champ and 1 finally died on his last turn.
Even though the Fusion Guns were a game winner, I think I will stick with the WraithGuard. I Will also eliminate the War Walkers and go with 2 more Wave Serpents.
Now to get some storm guardians and fusion guns painted.
What else is good in the Serpents?
Wraithguard, banshees, storm guardians, and?
admironheart wrote: What else is good in the Serpents?
Wraithguard, banshees, storm guardians, and?
Guardian Defenders are pretty good. 80 Points for a squad that can jump out at close range to put out 20 shots (should get at least 2 6s on the wound rolls) or grab an objective late game.
Dragons are good but not really necessary if you are taking Wraithguard.
Dark Reapers are good if you start off in the Serpent for Turn 1 protection. They always hit on 3s, even if they move which is handy.
After his hive tyrant and 5 of his 7 guard made it into combat, the banshees with the aid of a warlock and autarch killed all but 2 of the tyrant guard. He finally smited the last banshee and slaughtered the warlock and the autarch fled with 1 wound.
After his hive tyrant and 5 of his 7 guard made it into combat, the banshees with the aid of a warlock and autarch killed all but 2 of the tyrant guard. He finally smited the last banshee and slaughtered the warlock and the autarch fled with 1 wound.
Why did the autarch run?
I'm going to guess he fell back, so he wouldn't surrender Warlord, and let his army mop up the guard with shooting.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Did a tournament today, we had a Dark Eldar player, a Ynarri player using Craftworld Wraiths, and my regular Craftworld Eldar.
Due to a systematic problem of pure gak dice, I got waxed the first two games. When they finally started rolling like average, I tabled my third opponent in 4 rounds (Death Guard).
The Ynarri player was running 3 flamer Guard in Serpents, a Wraith Knight, Eldrad and an Autarch. He went 1 - 2 as well, being paired up against 2 knight armies, and just getting waxed both times.
The Dark Eldar player though, had a good mix of Harlequins in there, and he cleaned house. 3 for 3, and took second.
The all Wraith army didn't impress me to much. I felt my list would have dealt with it very easily. Granted, his pairings sucked. He ended up against 4 knights in game 2, and got tabled. Game 3, he fought 3 Knights and Magnus, and again got tabled.
I didn't get a good look at the Dark Eldar list, but he crushed a Knight army, a Tempestus Scion with Calgar army, and punted a tank heavy Tau army.
I had the Scion army in round one, and even with horrible rolling, I managed to crush half of his army, but in the end it just wasn't enough to hold onto the necessary objectives. Round 2 I got the Knight/Magnus army. Tabled in 3... Round 3 I addressed above.
Kouzuki wrote: Storm Guardians are considered good now??
I like them for a cheap unit of troops + fusion guns x2 Normally the enemy is too busy shooting the good units and you can leave the 2 fusion guns to die last so your bound to get 2 rounds of shooting out of them. So far the unit has killed its points everytime.
My new list:
As much as I love my 3 warwalkers, the last battle vs the nids I could not take any objectives til the last turn just to stay alive from the swarm. My Reapers killed way over their points but I had to change my whole plan to keep them and the walkers alive.
So I think the Eldar will have to stay with the quick mobile force we are supposed to be.
Battalion
HQ Autarch w/Warp Jump +FusionPistol+ WebofSkulls (AvengerCatapult/PowerSword)
HQ Warlock Singing Spear +Enhance/Drain
T 1 Exarch + DireSword, 4 Dire Avengers
T 10 Defender Guardians + Shuriken Canon Support Platform
T 9 Storm Guardians +3 Chainswords
Hvy 1 Exarch +Shuriken Canon, 2 Dark Reapers w'Reaper Launchers
Trans Wave Serpent Twin Linked EML +Shuriken Canon + Spirit Stones
Trans Wave Serpent Twin Linked EML +Shuriken Canon + Spirit Stones
Trans Wave Serpent Twin Linked Shuriken Cannons +Shuriken Canon + Spirit Stones +SuperCharged
Trans Wave Serpent Twin Linked ScatterLasers +Shuriken Canon + CTM
Trans Wave Serpent Twin Linked BrightLances +Shuriken Canon + Spirit Stones
Command
HQ 1 Farseer with Witch Blade + Doom +Fortune
HQ 1 Warlock with Witch Blade +Enhance/Drain
HQ 1 Warlock with Witch Blade + Conceal/Reveal
Vanguard
HQ 1 SpiritSeer with Witch Staff Conceal/Reveal
E 5 WraithGuard with WraithCanons
E 1 Exarch and 6 Howling Banshees with PowerSwords
E 1 Exarch + FirePike and 4 Fire Dragons with Fusion Guns
8 CP and 2000 points
I wanted to take the WraithBlades and the Storm Guardians with Fusion Guns. I could not fit them into a battalion or I could not fit all the units into the 5 WS.
I did not want to take the Dire Avengers, but troop choices to squeeze into a Battalion and the Wave Serpents are limited.
Interesting list. Definitely making the most of the 12 man transport capacity of the wave serpents.
I'd go another guardian defender squad over the dire avengers. Even without a heavy weapon platform if needed.
And yes would be worth finding points for the fusion guns on the storm guardians. Can you drop the wraithguard to wraithboades Judy with the swords? That's a bit cheaper at least. Also can you find points for a tempest launcher on your dark reaper exarch. The shuri cannon seems the weakest of 3 weapon options and he is really good with the other 2.
I'd consider downgrading some wave serpent configs to save some points. Twin cannons is on par with twin scatter laser statistically (or close enough) and will save you 10 points as you don't need ctm. I'd try get ctm on all the 2 shot heavy weapons. Hitting on 3s is bad enough, 4s is hardly worth it imo. Maybe downgrade one of the aml to shuriken cannons. You have access to doom so cannons are surprisingly effective against big targets en masse. Or trim some of the extras from them. The extra vehicle upgrades are good but the tanks are pretty survivable on their own. The spirit stones and extras is an extra squad of dudes almost.
That could give you enough points to optimise the squads a bit.
Hey guys. I looked arround to catch up my 2k Army.
Now Iam at the last Point. Flyer !
Iam not sure about the Type of a Flyer.
At the Last few Sites the diskuss betwenn the Hunter and the Hemlock.
The Hemlock is the Winner but whats about the Phoenix and the Nightwing? Points are a bit Different but in the same scale .
So whats about them ?
So far the rules of the Phoenix:
http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/eldar-phoenix.jpg
They are all good and better per point than prisms, spinners, falcons, war walkers, vypers and so on.
Nightwing for 145 pts brings 2 lances and 2 shuriken cannons - with 5++ or 2+ BS against land units I think it's a bargain. The closest contender is wave serpent with twin bright lance and shuriken cannon at 159 points. For example, for a Vyper to come even close just by carrying same armament it must be 40 points per model, not how it's now (and it would still be worse due to being more fragile and not having Matrix).
Phoenix packs all that and better, more wounds, and also a swarm of D2 damage missiles - that's around 1.5 star cannons or something similar for a marginal points increase.
Crimson Hunter is basically las predator but better. Take it as if you would take one.
Hemlock is just good although most interesting when you have units it can cover with Conceal. But even solo or in groups it's great unit.
So really, pick anything you have points for - 8th edition is about flyers, partially at least.
There's no way we can toss Reapers in an open topped transport is there? I suppose 48" and -1 to hit is a pretty good defense but I feel like they're going to get vaporized so fast after turn 1.
Even so, having a large squad of them shooting twice (word of the Phoenix) isn't the worst thing
luke1705 wrote: There's no way we can toss Reapers in an open topped transport is there? I suppose 48" and -1 to hit is a pretty good defense but I feel like they're going to get vaporized so fast after turn 1.
Even so, having a large squad of them shooting twice (word of the Phoenix) isn't the worst thing
Not unless Raiders now say they can transport <Aeldari/Asuryani> infantry.
Well, Dragons/Reapers in open-topped transports with -1 to hit and in-built invul would probably outright destroy whole meta, so these restrictions are reasonable.
I did have to place them in some obscure corner with LOS blocking terrain to cover half the opponents army.
Only a Gene Stealer Brood Lord and an Imperial Fighter ever got close enough to attack them.
You have 48" range for a reason.....make the best use of it!
Indeed. A canny opponent will do his utmost to get rid of them but by god can they lay the smack down. They are all but custom built to clean up Primaris marines. With Guide and Word of the Pheonix in play, one round of shooting will change a game. Played a game sunday night, took my opponents Intercessors and Hellblasters off the table in turn one.
I am a fan of the Hemlock as well. That thing can be a force of nature if it gets hot Smite rolls.
I have yet to get my Yncarne on the table though, hows it working for you guys?
From the FAQ:
Q. If a model is equipped with two chainswords, do they get to make 2 extra close combat attacks?
A. Yes (though both must be made with a chainsword)
Does this apply to Wraithblade Ghostswords? The weapon in the Index states: GhostswordS, but the profile states 'THIS' weapon gains an extra attack.
(Meaning 5 attacks each for the Wraithblades in the charge)
If you look into the sword profile each model is equiped with ghostswords, and when you read it, the reference is in plural, so it is already taken into account that you are carrying 2, thus the extra attack compared to the axe.
The only thing that bothers me about returning to play this edition with my 6 Jes Goodwin designed old school wave serpents is the fact that there are quite a few snob nose comments about the design of the 80's/90's vehicles from epic.
Personally I read that the 1997/8 Falcon/WaveSerpent was stolen from a mid 90's video game design.
I always liked that the old elder titans/vehicles were true alien psycho-plastic constructs. Then came the exhaust vents, plumbing and electrical conduits, etc that made elder vehicles very much like human vehicles just with weird shapes. I LIKE THE ALIEN LOOK of the first dozen years of the hobby.
If someone likes the 'horseshoe' shape tanks go for it. I like my old "iron-style" tanks. There are 20+ players that show up most nites and almost none of them have even a primered army. My force is completely tournament ready painted as that is how I like to play the game with as much 'thematic' feel as possible. A bunch of gray plastics/resin figs look lame compared to painted old metal minis IMO. I think it would be terribly rude/poor sportsmanship to call players out on an unpainted army despite my opinion.
Conversely when I see players 'rag' on the older stuff where 80% of all the lore, units and such were created, I think they are showing their age AND their maturity.
The only thing that bothers me about returning to play this edition with my 6 Jes Goodwin designed old school wave serpents is the fact that there are quite a few snob nose comments about the design of the 80's/90's vehicles from epic.
Personally I read that the 1997/8 Falcon/WaveSerpent was stolen from a mid 90's video game design.
I always liked that the old elder titans/vehicles were true alien psycho-plastic constructs. Then came the exhaust vents, plumbing and electrical conduits, etc that made elder vehicles very much like human vehicles just with weird shapes. I LIKE THE ALIEN LOOK of the first dozen years of the hobby.
If someone likes the 'horseshoe' shape tanks go for it. I like my old "iron-style" tanks. There are 20+ players that show up most nites and almost none of them have even a primered army. My force is completely tournament ready painted as that is how I like to play the game with as much 'thematic' feel as possible. A bunch of gray plastics/resin figs look lame compared to painted old metal minis IMO. I think it would be terribly rude/poor sportsmanship to call players out on an unpainted army despite my opinion.
Conversely when I see players 'rag' on the older stuff where 80% of all the lore, units and such were created, I think they are showing their age AND their maturity.
Rant over lol
I used the "iron" Wave Serpent one time against my friends. That stupid paper Serpent Shield was the most fiddly thing ever and, after I shot it once, no one would let me use it again. I miss my old Armorcast Tempest grav tank though. It was far manlier than the Scorpion.
I have 3 Tempests to form my BattleGroup, Much like my 2 Revenant Scout titans travel in pairs as the epic game had them fielded.
The Scorpion is a bit larger than the Tempest. Is there a FW flyer that is equivalent? One with Hover mode. Just never use the flyer rule and stay with hover and that could be a good equivalent.
The Scorpion is a bit larger than the Tempest. Is there a FW flyer that is equivalent? One with Hover mode. Just never use the flyer rule and stay with hover and that could be a good equivalent.
The Tempest is bigger than a Lynx and smaller than a Scorpion.
Looking at the current rules for 8th. The scorpion is extremely good. It's gun is insane.
The lynx is sadly not in the same boat. The lance variant may be the better option. but the Lynx pulsar is garbage for the cost. So sad, I wanted a pair of lynx for the longest time, and not really worth it right now.
The list of things that a scorpion doesn't one-shot is pretty small. I think it's broken to the point that it can't realistically be taken in any remotely friendly game. I like the sonic lance lynx. It's not worth the points, but I think it's much better than a Deathshroud Wraithknight for less than half the cost. The pulsar lynx is terribad. The cobra is probably too niche to be competitive, but it's appropriately costed.
The Scorpion is a prime example why I stay the hell away from Forge World. It's stupidly brokenly good and it can delete any unit in the base rules in a single shot. The exceptions are swarm units, but it'll still take out ~10 models per turn *before morale checks*.
To be that hard to kill and that universally deadly at that price point is absurd.
To be that hard to kill and that universally deadly at that price point is absurd.
What price point would you suggest?
What's an appropriate points cost for something that can kill a Revenant Titan (@1200 points) with a single shot? I don't know. I guess it should cost about 300 more points, which is still arguably under-costed but at least takes into consideration the fact that one Scorpion can't kill more than one unit a turn.
Right now, in a 2000 point army, you can take three of them. You can delete 3 units a turn off the table. The average 2000 point list has about 10 units. At least the thrashing would be over quickly.
Bump it up a little more so that it's inefficient vs anything other than really big things. Make it so that you'd only ever take it if you knew your opponents units were going to be worth 250+ points each.
Deathypoo wrote: The Scorpion is a prime example why I stay the hell away from Forge World. It's stupidly brokenly good and it can delete any unit in the base rules in a single shot. The exceptions are swarm units, but it'll still take out ~10 models per turn *before morale checks*.
To be that hard to kill and that universally deadly at that price point is absurd.
Shadowswords do the same thing, in a GW main Index, for less points.
Deathypoo wrote: The Scorpion is a prime example why I stay the hell away from Forge World. It's stupidly brokenly good and it can delete any unit in the base rules in a single shot. The exceptions are swarm units, but it'll still take out ~10 models per turn *before morale checks*.
To be that hard to kill and that universally deadly at that price point is absurd.
Shadowswords do the same thing, in a GW main Index, for less points.
Except the scorpion's weapon is 4d6 instead of d6 And d6 (sometimes 2d6) damage instead of d3
And BS 2+ instead of BS 4+
The lower strength and one less AP are a drop in the bucket compared to these differences.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh right, plus the Scorpion's invuln save (granted, it must move and take the -1 to hit to get it).
Deathypoo wrote: The Scorpion is a prime example why I stay the hell away from Forge World. It's stupidly brokenly good and it can delete any unit in the base rules in a single shot. The exceptions are swarm units, but it'll still take out ~10 models per turn *before morale checks*.
To be that hard to kill and that universally deadly at that price point is absurd.
Shadowswords do the same thing, in a GW main Index, for less points.
Except the scorpion's weapon is 4d6 instead of d6 And d6 (sometimes 2d6) damage instead of d3
And BS 2+ instead of BS 4+
The lower strength and one less AP are a drop in the bucket compared to these differences.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh right, plus the Scorpion's invuln save (granted, it must move and take the -1 to hit to get it).
Except the scorpion's weapon is 4d6 instead of d6 And d6 (sometimes 2d6) damage instead of d3
And BS 2+ instead of BS 4+
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh right, plus the Scorpion's invuln save (granted, it must move and take the -1 to hit to get it).
+10 heavy bolters and +4 lascannons. Also, Volcano Cannons do 2d6 damage, not d3.
hmmmm good call about the lascannons, I had just looked at the default loadout, although if you're right about 2d6 damage instead of d3 then Battlescribe needs to be updated. That's a big difference.
The thing is, and this is a really big indicator of how crazy both of these monsters are, is that 4 lascannons doesn't really swing the equation much. That's one more Heavy d6 from either of these weapons, and the scorpion is still two ahead.
I'd probably still take the Shadowsword though, just because it can split up it's fire when there are no Titans around to justify shooting everything at it, and the Scorpion can still only pop one target. So I guess you've proved your point (assuming 2d6 damage is correct) that the Scorpion isn't insanely better than anything from the base rules...
Their points are getting pretty close once you add the 4 lascannons to the Shadowsword. The Shadowsword is 582 to the Scorpion's 677. So the Scorpion only costs 16% more.
Defensively, the Scorpion has 20% more effective wounds due to Spirit Stones, and an invulnerable save after it gets to move.
Offensively, the Shadowsword, if it sits still, expects to put about 21 wounds on a Titanic T8 3+ model with its lascannons and main gun, though this goes up to 25 if you're willing to use a CP to re-roll the number of hits on the volcano cannon. If the Scorpion sits still or shoots the closest target its main gun expects 34 wounds.
The Scorpion's main problem is just that it has to shoot everything at one target, since that will often be extreme overkill. But it's still got about a 44% chance to destroy a Knight in one volley if it sits still (~52% if you use a CP to re-roll a 1 on your shot rolls). This does drop to closer to 30% if it has to shoot at 3+, though. It's no Necron Gauss Pylon but it's pretty good. It's probably worth taking, and better than the Shadowsword, if your opponent has more than a single tank.
The shadowsword is the cobra equivalent, and both of these are very well balanced. The scorpion should have 2d6 shots. The phantoms pulsar and d weapons are balanced in this way.
Offensively, the Shadowsword, if it sits still, expects to put about 21 wounds on a Titanic T8 3+ model with its lascannons and main gun, though this goes up to 25 if you're willing to use a CP to re-roll the number of hits on the volcano cannon. If the Scorpion sits still or shoots the closest target its main gun expects 34 wounds.
But then the Shadowsword still has 10 heavy bolters to throw around at non-titans (or even them, that many heavy bolters will chip in a wound or 2). Imperial things are always more versatile than Eldar things, and they do so for cheaper.
If you wanted to kill a unit of anything but tanks, the Shadowsword is the clear winner and a hundred points cheaper. And more to the point, a GW kit/rules, since the argument was that FW makes more powerful things.
Offensively, the Shadowsword, if it sits still, expects to put about 21 wounds on a Titanic T8 3+ model with its lascannons and main gun, though this goes up to 25 if you're willing to use a CP to re-roll the number of hits on the volcano cannon. If the Scorpion sits still or shoots the closest target its main gun expects 34 wounds.
But then the Shadowsword still has 10 heavy bolters to throw around at non-titans (or even them, that many heavy bolters will chip in a wound or 2). Imperial things are always more versatile than Eldar things, and they do so for cheaper.
If you wanted to kill a unit of anything but tanks, the Shadowsword is the clear winner and a hundred points cheaper. And more to the point, a GW kit/rules, since the argument was that FW makes more powerful things.
It depends what you're shooting at. The Scorpion does just fine against Marines, provided there's a big enough unit. It expects to kill more than the Shadowsword, including its Heavy Bolters, though it really needs to be shooting at a 10-man unit or better yet a 15-man unit. The Shadowsword only barely beats it against Conscripts. Like I said, the Scorpion's main problem is just that it can only shoot one thing. But, really, how often is this an issue? Nobody's bringing an entire army of 5-man infantry units. Infantry spam lists that intentionally avoid bringing good multi-wound targets will almost always have 10-man units to shoot. Possibly the only matchup where I really want a Shadowsword instead of a Scorpion is mass Brimstone Horrors and Daemon Princes. And it's so much better against vehicles, and especially flyers, and has the option to become significantly more durable.
That said, I think if you're looking at a Scorpion you should probably consider the Vampire Hunter instead. It costs 37% more but gets a 4++ at first instead of a 5++, has Hard to Hit (making it 33% more durable against BS3+), and has an easier time sniping things with its CTM. It has the same main gun that was already a pretty good buy on the Scorpion and adds another 8 shots that are almost as good as the first ~14 and which can be independently targeted. Obviously the entire rest of your list needs to be anti-horde if you bring one of these at 2k, though.
It seems to me that due to the overreaction to the previous edition most armies got balanced and eldar got pricey. also, the fact that shuricanons have no ap now at all makes it debatable whether or not they are worth the points.
A lot of things in the Aeldari craftworlds/Ynari army list seem to have the theme of being fairly resilient due only to some re-rolls and buffs, but mostly expesnive and outnumber nearly all the time. the main weakness of the whole army feels like they can stay on the board but struggle to kill anything.
It's like there are a series of knobs that adjust the points values, staying power and firepower of each army and while the other knobs are now at medium levels for Aeldari, the firepower just got toned down to low due the bitching of other players because of how newb friendly the army was.
Seerpath wrote: the fact that shuricanons have no ap now at all makes it debatable whether or not they are worth the points.
I actually got curious about this because they seemed so good to me. And they are. In a vacuum, they are easily, by far, the most efficient weapon per point against a variety of targets. And that's before you consider the effect movement has on the other guns.
The math just gets confusing when you take into consideration the points of the platform. Now instead of starcannons costing 150% more points, they cost something like 20% more points (varies wildly by platform) and my math goes out the window.
Long story short, I think that you should upgrade your gun slots into whatever you think your army needs, but if you end up with unused heavy weapon slots on Wraithlords or unused Guardian defense platforms or whatever, downgrade some guns to make sure every possible slot has at least a Shuriken Cannon.
Oh, and scatter lasers are terrible, never take them on something unless it can move and fire heavy weapons without penalty... and even then consider that the Shuriken Cannon is better against anything with a decent armor save.
-3 ap on 6s to wound is plenty good enough on the shuriken cannon. Especially when you have platforms that can field 2 or 3 of them (star weavers, wave serpents) they really add up.
When you start factoring in doom you are getting more shots at bladestorm, especially when shooting at anything t7+.
They are good, cheap, consistent wound dealers.
The fact that they are assault for an army that wants to be constantly moving is icing on the cake.
Wyldcarde wrote: -3 ap on 6s to wound is plenty good enough on the shuriken cannon. Especially when you have platforms that can field 2 or 3 of them (star weavers, wave serpents) they really add up.
When you start factoring in doom you are getting more shots at bladestorm, especially when shooting at anything t7+.
They are good, cheap, consistent wound dealers.
The fact that they are assault for an army that wants to be constantly moving is icing on the cake.
My dice thought otherwise last night. Ancestor's Grace on a unit of 9. Got 16 hits. And then rolled two 4+ against a squad of Primarus marines.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I did try hornet's yesterday though. A unit of 2 with pulse and crystals. They did some significant damage, albeit i guided them 4/5 turns.
Having just tried reading this whole thread, what are the stand out units? what are competitive choices this edition? any obvious avoids? I'm probably starting an Eldar army, and want to make a limited budget effective, to begin with.
Are any of the aspects good? or is it all wave serpents now?
Wave Serpents are by far the best all-around unit we have. There's a "wishlist" thread somewhere where Eldar players are even asking for Wave Serpents to be nerfed in the upcoming Codex, because they totally out-class all of our other tanks. They are very hard to kill and can mount a decent chunk of fire power for a very efficient points cost.
I say this despite ignoring them to mess around with a Wraith Knight+Lord army haha... I think all varieties of Wraith are good (including Hemlocks) but I haven't gotten a change to field Wraithguard yet.
Dark Reapers and Fire Dragons are the only good aspects atm. I see people argue for Shining Spears but they still look mediocre to me.
Jetbikes are still good but are probably not talked about as much because they aren't as overpowered as they were last edition.
All of our melee infantry are trash right now. Like... Really Really awful. Talking about craftworld here, the other flavors of Eldar are fine at melee.
Dire Avengers have a typo in their cost which makes them unusable in points games (still fine in Power based games, if you do that).
Pretty much all the rest is decent but just compares unfavorably with Wave Serpents. You don't even need filler for wave serpents now, as you can take one dedicated transport per other slot filled in a detachment. So if I take an outrider detachment with one Skyrunner Farseer and 3x3 Jetbikes, I can take 4 Wave Serpents to go with it. They can't even transport a single model in that army but they're still a good choice to take.
luke1705 wrote: No love for Warp Spiders? I know they can't jump shoot jump anymore, but if you're in a ynnari Detachment they can
I just don't think they're worth three times as much as a Guardian Defender (which is hardly outstanding to begin with). They are more maneuverable, but sooner or later they still have to get within 12". They have a 3+ armor save, but are still T3 W1. Their gun is a step up from a Shuriken Catapult, but not a huge one, and it's not going to inst-pop a unit like the Fire Dragons can. Flickerjump is a nice perk but not a game changer. Ynnari make everything better so I wouldn't use them as part of any other unit's assessment.
No I know but it gives them their JSJ back. Of course, I suppose it does that for other units too, but they have a LOT of mobility, so I think they benefit from JSJ back out of LOS more than most units
So, Forgeworld:
- Shadow Spectres would have to treck on their own under enemy fire - no transport for them
- No Outrider detach made out of flyers (aww)
- Scorpion, not sure if buffed or nerfed. On one hand, it lost about 10% of it's firepower or so? On the other, it's now stable damage, extra wounds won't be lost when shooting at W3 squads and, say, necron Quantium shields are way less effective against it.
Shadenuat wrote: So, Forgeworld:
- Shadow Spectres would have to treck on their own under enemy fire - no transport for them
- No Outrider detach made out of flyers (aww)
- Scorpion, not sure if buffed or nerfed. On one hand, it lost about 10% of it's firepower or so? On the other, it's now stable damage, extra wounds won't be lost when shooting at W3 squads and, say, necron Quantium shields are way less effective against it.
Why do you need an Outrider detachment when the Air Wing Detachment exists?
- Scorpion, not sure if buffed or nerfed. On one hand, it lost about 10% of it's firepower or so? On the other, it's now stable damage, extra wounds won't be lost when shooting at W3 squads and, say, necron Quantium shields are way less effective against it.
It's pretty exclusively a nerf. Consistency is nice but in a world where command re-rolls are a thing, if it mattered, having a little more upside would have been better against more targets.
GreaterGood? wrote: Having just tried reading this whole thread, what are the stand out units? what are competitive choices this edition? any obvious avoids? I'm probably starting an Eldar army, and want to make a limited budget effective, to begin with.
Are any of the aspects good? or is it all wave serpents now?
Deathypoo covered most of it. I wanted to chime in just to emphasize how good Hemlocks are now. Just solid all around and super versatile.
I do think our melee isn't as lacklustre as others have said. Wraithblades are fine if not overpowered in anyway. I've been having a lot of success with 6-7 man scorpion squads as well, pop up in cover near a backfield unit, do the whole assassin thing.
Otherwise it's serpents, reapers, our psychic and, because of the transport, guardians in serpents are really pretty good.
I have had success with warp spiders. They aren't as good as previous edition but are still solid. Flickerjump is nice but flickerjump plus conceal is brutal. And they are mobile enough to get into cover so their 3+ becomes a 2+ save.
Ditto with shining spears. They are always first target from the opposition for me but throw out a lot of attacks. Short range again but deadly.
I think both of them are better in ynnari where their short range puts them in soulburst range. Shining spears especially as they have the firepower to trigger soulburst on their own.
Also gotta special mention the hemlock. Is amazing.
Also the night spinner isn't too bad this edition. It does lose out a bit to the wave serpent but is the best of the rest for the tanks.
I think our main weapon is our psychic. Doom makes every unit we have more dangerous. It is a glorious feeling dooming something big like a tank or knight and just bladestorming it to death with massed shuriken fire. The rest are solid as well. Only one power per phase in matched play hurts a bit tho.
I know they didn't change any points costs but come on I hate using Guardians
