If it's sudden death you're worried about, I don't think 3 flyers are a problem. Hemlocks do so much damage relative to Wave Serpents that they absolutely have to be dealt with. Not being able to hold objectives is a bigger issue, yeah.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, it's important to realize that the Iyanden trait is worse for basically everything than the Ulthwe trait.
Consider a Wraithlord. 10 wounds, with profiles at 1-2, 3-5, and 6-10. I'm going to talk here about "damage" pre-FNP rolls, and for convenience I'll just be relying on "probably"s and expected values, but nothing much is going to change if we do a more rigorous analysis.
Both Craftworlds' WLs are still the same with up to 4 damage taken.
With 5 damage taken, the Iyanden one is always still on its first profile. But the Ulthwe one is probably still on its first profile too -- if it passed a single one of its 5 FNPs it will still have 6 wounds left to the Iyanden's 5.
With 6 or 7 damage taken, the Iyanden one is still on its first profile while the Ulthwe one is very likely to be on its second.
With 8 damage taken, both are very likely to be on their second profile.
With 9 damage taken, the Iyanden WL will be on its last profile while the Ulthwe one has about a 50% chance of still being on its second profile.
With 10 damage taken, the Iyanden WL is dead, while the Ulthwe WL is almost certainly still alive, probably on its last profile.
With 11 damage taken the Iyanden WL is still dead, while the Ulthwe one is probably still alive.
So the Iyanden WL only actually has a clear advantage over the Ulthwe WL for 2 possible amounts of damage taken, while the Ulthwe WL has a clear advantage for 3 possible amounts of damage taken. And of course the Ulthwe one is just 20% more durable.
Dionysodorus wrote: If it's sudden death you're worried about, I don't think 3 flyers are a problem. Hemlocks do so much damage relative to Wave Serpents that they absolutely have to be dealt with. Not being able to hold objectives is a bigger issue, yeah.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, it's important to realize that the Iyanden trait is worse for basically everything than the Ulthwe trait.
Consider a Wraithlord. 10 wounds, with profiles at 1-2, 3-5, and 6-10. I'm going to talk here about "damage" pre-FNP rolls, and for convenience I'll just be relying on "probably"s and expected values, but nothing much is going to change if we do a more rigorous analysis.
Both Craftworlds' WLs are still the same with up to 4 damage taken.
With 5 damage taken, the Iyanden one is always still on its first profile. But the Ulthwe one is probably still on its first profile too -- if it passed a single one of its 5 FNPs it will still have 6 wounds left to the Iyanden's 5.
With 6 or 7 damage taken, the Iyanden one is still on its first profile while the Ulthwe one is very likely to be on its second.
With 8 damage taken, both are very likely to be on their second profile.
With 9 damage taken, the Iyanden WL will be on its last profile while the Ulthwe one has about a 50% chance of still being on its second profile.
With 10 damage taken, the Iyanden WL is dead, while the Ulthwe WL is almost certainly still alive, probably on its last profile.
With 11 damage taken the Iyanden WL is still dead, while the Ulthwe one is probably still alive.
So the Iyanden WL only actually has a clear advantage over the Ulthwe WL for 2 possible amounts of damage taken, while the Ulthwe WL has a clear advantage for 3 possible amounts of damage taken. And of course the Ulthwe one is just 20% more durable.
Consider the Iyanden trait for things like Wave Serpents, Warp Hunters, etc. Vehicles not degrading until < 4 Wounds is quite good.
Consider the Iyanden trait for things like Wave Serpents, Warp Hunters, etc. Vehicles not degrading until < 4 Wounds is quite good.
The result is going to be basically the same.
Wave Serpent with profiles at 1-3, 4-6, and 7-13:
Both are probably on their first profile for 0-7 damage taken.
Iyanden is on its first profile while Ulthwe is probably on its second for 8-9 damage taken
Both are probably on their second profile for 10-11 damage taken.
Both are probably on their third profile for 12 damage taken.
Iyanden is dead while Ulthwe is probably alive for 13-15 damage taken.
So Ulthwe is better for 3 amounts of damage taken while Iyanden is only better for 2, and in addition to Ulthwe keeping its offense better at low wounds it's also 20% more durable.
You have to have some very specific priorities where it's just really, really important that you stay on your first profile as long as possible and then you don't care at all that your stuff is dying a lot faster in order to prefer Iyanden.
Drake003 wrote: Disappointing the ignore wound role cannot be used in addition to Spirit Stones etc. Means a Wraithfighter currently has to pay 10 points for Spirit Stones it gains no benefit from.
Spirit Stones are an ability for Hemlocks. They don't have to pay 10 points to have them.
Consider the Iyanden trait for things like Wave Serpents, Warp Hunters, etc. Vehicles not degrading until < 4 Wounds is quite good.
The result is going to be basically the same.
Wave Serpent with profiles at 1-3, 4-6, and 7-13:
Both are probably on their first profile for 0-7 damage taken.
Iyanden is on its first profile while Ulthwe is probably on its second for 8-9 damage taken
Both are probably on their second profile for 10-11 damage taken.
Both are probably on their third profile for 12 damage taken.
Iyanden is dead while Ulthwe is probably alive for 13-15 damage taken.
So Ulthwe is better for 3 amounts of damage taken while Iyanden is only better for 2, and in addition to Ulthwe keeping its offense better at low wounds it's also 20% more durable.
You have to have some very specific priorities where it's just really, really important that you stay on your first profile as long as possible and then you don't care at all that your stuff is dying a lot faster in order to prefer Iyanden.
Given the number of games that are over by Turn 3, I tend to prioritize maximum capability. With d6 damage weapons being the weapons most commonly used to take out my Wraithlords, the extra 6+ save doesn't seem as amazing to me. A couple of lascannon shots on a wraithlord will often result in overkill. But maybe I'm wrong.
My biggest beef with the Ulthwe and Iyanden traits is that they only significantly help vehicles.
Drake003 wrote: Disappointing the ignore wound role cannot be used in addition to Spirit Stones etc. Means a Wraithfighter currently has to pay 10 points for Spirit Stones it gains no benefit from.
Spirit Stones are an ability for Hemlocks. They don't have to pay 10 points to have them.
A poorly worded question in the Space marine Index, with a poorly answer (that didn't bothered to even check the datasheet) on a FAQ shows clear shadows about it.
Consider the Iyanden trait for things like Wave Serpents, Warp Hunters, etc. Vehicles not degrading until < 4 Wounds is quite good.
The result is going to be basically the same.
Wave Serpent with profiles at 1-3, 4-6, and 7-13:
Both are probably on their first profile for 0-7 damage taken.
Iyanden is on its first profile while Ulthwe is probably on its second for 8-9 damage taken
Both are probably on their second profile for 10-11 damage taken.
Both are probably on their third profile for 12 damage taken.
Iyanden is dead while Ulthwe is probably alive for 13-15 damage taken.
So Ulthwe is better for 3 amounts of damage taken while Iyanden is only better for 2, and in addition to Ulthwe keeping its offense better at low wounds it's also 20% more durable.
You have to have some very specific priorities where it's just really, really important that you stay on your first profile as long as possible and then you don't care at all that your stuff is dying a lot faster in order to prefer Iyanden.
I mean, would the Iyanden vehicles not also have (likely) spirit stones already giving them the 6+ FNP that doesn't stack with the Ulthwe trait?
Drake003 wrote: Disappointing the ignore wound role cannot be used in addition to Spirit Stones etc. Means a Wraithfighter currently has to pay 10 points for Spirit Stones it gains no benefit from.
Spirit Stones are an ability for Hemlocks. They don't have to pay 10 points to have them.
A poorly worded question in the Space marine Index, with a poorly answer (that didn't bothered to even check the datasheet) on a FAQ shows clear shadows about it.
It's listed as an ability. And on Facebook today, the community folks said this about the Hemlock's spirit stones: "Hi Stephanie, as the rule is written it looks like you wouldn't be able to stack the saves. It's still pretty cool to get a 10 point upgrade for free on all your vehicles though!"
I believe I read somewhere else that they said you don't need to pay for the Spirit Stones.
Drake003 wrote: Disappointing the ignore wound role cannot be used in addition to Spirit Stones etc. Means a Wraithfighter currently has to pay 10 points for Spirit Stones it gains no benefit from.
Spirit Stones are an ability for Hemlocks. They don't have to pay 10 points to have them.
A poorly worded question in the Space marine Index, with a poorly answer (that didn't bothered to even check the datasheet) on a FAQ shows clear shadows about it.
It's listed as an ability. And on Facebook today, the community folks said this about the Hemlock's spirit stones: "Hi Stephanie, as the rule is written it looks like you wouldn't be able to stack the saves. It's still pretty cool to get a 10 point upgrade for free on all your vehicles though!"
I believe I read somewhere else that they said you don't need to pay for the Spirit Stones.
Another proof of GW half doing things.
This is the question:
Q: Is the cost of the combat shield included in the Company Champion and Company Champion on Bike’s points?
A: No. This (and all similar ‘other wargear’ found in the points values section) must be paid for in the same way as a model’s weapons.
Funny thing, in the spanish version of the same document, i found that question do not exist but they included an errata telling you to add a Combat shield for Champions on his built in wargear, errata they ignored to add on the English version too...
My personal position is that you not need to pay for built in Abilities like those but be wary some people may disagree due the FAq answering.
P.S: now let's focus in rumours and news instead rules lawyering
I mean, would the Iyanden vehicles not also have (likely) spirit stones already giving them the 6+ FNP that doesn't stack with the Ulthwe trait?
I guess you could give them that. That's 10 points each on a whole bunch of models that you're effectively paying for the Iyanden Attribute, plus then the transported models also have to be Iyanden with an inferior Attribute. I don't think it's a good idea as-is to give Spirit Stones to Wave Serpents unless they're carrying really expensive stuff, so this doesn't seem appealing to me. Like, do you really find that Wave Serpents with Spirit Stones degrade so quickly that you're willing to give up another Attribute or 10 points per model to keep them shooting better (but not alive) for longer?
Also look at what happens if you have multiple units. If I have 3 WLs, then, sure, as the first one is taking damage the two Attributes are pretty similar. But when the second Ulthwe WL dies, the last Iyanden WL is already down to 6 wounds. Because Ulthwe is boosting your offense only as a side effect of buffing your durability, everything except the unit that your opponent fires at first degrades slower than Iyanden units do, just because the first unit took more shooting to kill.
I mean, would the Iyanden vehicles not also have (likely) spirit stones already giving them the 6+ FNP that doesn't stack with the Ulthwe trait?
I guess you could give them that. That's 10 points each on a whole bunch of models that you're effectively paying for the Iyanden Attribute, plus then the transported models also have to be Iyanden with an inferior Attribute. I don't think it's a good idea as-is to give Spirit Stones to Wave Serpents unless they're carrying really expensive stuff, so this doesn't seem appealing to me. Like, do you really find that Wave Serpents with Spirit Stones degrade so quickly that you're willing to give up another Attribute or 10 points per model to keep them shooting better (but not alive) for longer?
Also look at what happens if you have multiple units. If I have 3 WLs, then, sure, as the first one is taking damage the two Attributes are pretty similar. But when the second Ulthwe WL dies, the last Iyanden WL is already down to 6 wounds. Because Ulthwe is boosting your offense only as a side effect of buffing your durability, everything except the unit that your opponent fires at first degrades slower than Iyanden units do, just because the first unit took more shooting to kill.
I didn't only list Wave Serpents. Specifically Iyanden will benefit any/all vehicles that degrade.
It's listed as an ability. And on Facebook today, the community folks said this about the Hemlock's spirit stones: "Hi Stephanie, as the rule is written it looks like you wouldn't be able to stack the saves. It's still pretty cool to get a 10 point upgrade for free on all your vehicles though!"
I believe I read somewhere else that they said you don't need to pay for the Spirit Stones.
The Facebook comments haven't really been reliable in the past, and are certainly trumped by actual FAQs and errata.
The Company Champion erratum is an unfortunate one, he really shouldn't pay for Combat Shield, but there is a significant likelyhood that it means we're supposed to pay ten extra points for the Hemlock. The situations are analogous.
I mean, would the Iyanden vehicles not also have (likely) spirit stones already giving them the 6+ FNP that doesn't stack with the Ulthwe trait?
I guess you could give them that. That's 10 points each on a whole bunch of models that you're effectively paying for the Iyanden Attribute, plus then the transported models also have to be Iyanden with an inferior Attribute. I don't think it's a good idea as-is to give Spirit Stones to Wave Serpents unless they're carrying really expensive stuff, so this doesn't seem appealing to me. Like, do you really find that Wave Serpents with Spirit Stones degrade so quickly that you're willing to give up another Attribute or 10 points per model to keep them shooting better (but not alive) for longer?
Also look at what happens if you have multiple units. If I have 3 WLs, then, sure, as the first one is taking damage the two Attributes are pretty similar. But when the second Ulthwe WL dies, the last Iyanden WL is already down to 6 wounds. Because Ulthwe is boosting your offense only as a side effect of buffing your durability, everything except the unit that your opponent fires at first degrades slower than Iyanden units do, just because the first unit took more shooting to kill.
You are starting to convince me Ulthwe is better, thus overturning my snap judgment. Stop using logic against me! I only have a 6++ vs logical appeals.
The Ulthwe trait has rubbish synergy with Fortune, unless of course they changed it. Bit of a shame, though I suppose in this edition you can just skip that power for others.
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I'd really like to see Battle Focus reworked with this codex so it can at least somewhat compete with SfD... Its just so inferior right now.
I didn't only list Wave Serpents. Specifically Iyanden will benefit any/all vehicles that degrade.
Yeah, sure. But Spirit Stones are only just worthwhile on any grav tank, even if they're actually good. It's a 17% increase in survivability for a 10 point increase in cost. Their breakeven is on a ~125 point unit, so you're not getting that much out of them up to about 200 points. We established earlier that a 6+ FNP is substantially better than the Iyanden Attribute. Offhand I'd put it at about twice as good. So maybe you're willing to buy Spirit Stones in order to get the Iyanden Attribute if the unit costs ~250 points? I guess for some of the FW tanks this makes sense. Of course, if Alatoic is really -1 to hit past 12" then in any case like this you would just be deciding between Ulthwe and Alatoic (and then Spirit Stones for the 6+ FNP).
Wayniac wrote: Am I the only one who feels that these feel closer to AdMech than Astra Militarum as far as things go? They seem solid but not the level of Guard.
Guard does seem like the codex the dev team spent the last year working on, day in and day out, putting in long days. Space Marines were done by the night shift, burning the midnight oil and the occasional weekend. Other codices were just copied and pasted from Marines by the janitor using notepad.
Wayniac wrote: Am I the only one who feels that these feel closer to AdMech than Astra Militarum as far as things go? They seem solid but not the level of Guard.
Guard does seem like the codex the dev team spent the last year working on, day in and day out, putting in long days. Space Marines were done by the night shift, burning the midnight oil and the occasional weekend. Other codices were just copied and pasted from Marines by the janitor using notepad.
Wayniac wrote: Am I the only one who feels that these feel closer to AdMech than Astra Militarum as far as things go? They seem solid but not the level of Guard.
I mean, the actual Attributes themselves are straightforwardly better than pretty much anything Guard got. Iyanden's is strictly superior to Valhalla's doctrine. Ulthwe's is far better than the AdMech FNP dogma, since it works well with multi-wound models. Guard really doesn't have anything that approaches 6+ FNP in all-around usefulness. Maybe the vehicle component of the Catachan one?
What really sets the Guard codex apart power-wise is that tons of things were (aggressively) re-pointed, particular underperformers like Leman Russes and Baneblades got significant new abilities, and they have an incredibly good generic warlord trait with great relics. It's really too soon to say how the Eldar codex measures up here. I think all we know is that Guardians and Wraithguard are the same price, and Wraithguard were already pretty good and got buffed to T6.
What really sets the Guard codex apart thoughtfulness-wise is that few of the 8 regiments are outright bad or clearly worse than others, and in addition to all the usual stuff they get regiment-specific orders. Here things are looking pretty grim for Eldar, with just 5 Craftworlds, and of the two we know about one seems almost strictly inferior to the other.
Wayniac wrote: Am I the only one who feels that these feel closer to AdMech than Astra Militarum as far as things go? They seem solid but not the level of Guard.
Guard does seem like the codex the dev team spent the last year working on, day in and day out, putting in long days. Space Marines were done by the night shift, burning the midnight oil and the occasional weekend. Other codices were just copied and pasted from Marines by the janitor using notepad.
Typically what sets Craftworlds apart is the synergies of the psychic powers (which GW hasn't shown us yet) stacking with everything else.
Guardians hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, plus Doom, plus who knows what else...and 80 point unit with an unimpressive statline can erase units worth several times its own cost.
Iyanden may still be the way to go for Wave Serpents and the like. You can mimic the Ulthwe ability with just a 10 point upgrade on your vehicles. Sure, that is 10 points you could save by using a different craftworld, but you could not copy the effects of the Iyanden perk elsewhere.
Another potential problem with the Ulthwe perk is that as it is currently written (and will hopefully change) you cannot cast Fortune on any Ulthwe units. Fortune cannot be cast on anything that has a preexisting ability to ignore wounds. I'd say the rolls had to be similar but the Ulthwe ability made it clear that they can differ (by mentioning the Ghosthelm). So Ulthwe has to use Fortune-lite for the entire army and currently cant focus protection on any given unit.
That said, Fortune is fairly meh compared to Guide and Doom. But with powers only being able to be cast once, you want each option to have more mileage. Probably why cruddy Mind War got a mention as a useful power for Ulthwe.
It's not like you're going to cast Fortune on a Wave Serpent, though. And Serpents don't get much out of damage table resistance since their shooting is pretty poor. I really don't think I'd be willing to pay 10 points for each Serpent to get damage table resistance. Surely the effect is worth a lot less than a 6+ FNP even for things that do shoot well. I'd probably take a 5 point wargear option to get damage table resistance on a ~150 point Fire Prism, assuming it's otherwise decent.
It's true that the Ulthwe Attribute doesn't seem to be compatible with Fortune on Wraithguard or Shining Spears or Wraithknights, and that's a significant disadvantage if you're planning on doing something involving one big unit like that.
Goobi2 wrote: Iyanden may still be the way to go for Wave Serpents and the like. You can mimic the Ulthwe ability with just a 10 point upgrade on your vehicles. Sure, that is 10 points you could save by using a different craftworld, but you could not copy the effects of the Iyanden perk elsewhere.
Another potential problem with the Ulthwe perk is that as it is currently written (and will hopefully change) you cannot cast Fortune on any Ulthwe units. Fortune cannot be cast on anything that has a preexisting ability to ignore wounds. I'd say the rolls had to be similar but the Ulthwe ability made it clear that they can differ (by mentioning the Ghosthelm). So Ulthwe has to use Fortune-lite for the entire army and currently cant focus protection on any given unit.
That said, Fortune is fairly meh compared to Guide and Doom. But with powers only being able to be cast once, you want each option to have more mileage. Probably why cruddy Mind War got a mention as a useful power for Ulthwe.
That's my idea, currently. Wave Serpents, Warp Hunters, maybe some other tanks. Depending on any buffs/changes to tanks it'll only be that much more interesting. Especially if the shields actually provide an INV save until their spent, etc. We'll see.
I know very little of Eldar, but these changes and new things are neat and are making me interested.
Flavius Infernus wrote: Typically what sets Craftworlds apart is the synergies of the psychic powers (which GW hasn't shown us yet) stacking with everything else.
Guardians hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, plus Doom, plus who knows what else...and 80 point unit with an unimpressive statline can erase units worth several times its own cost.
It's not really 80 points when you have an Autarch and a Farseer baby sitting it. In fact, it's still worse than just two 80 point units of Guardians.
Flavius Infernus wrote: Typically what sets Craftworlds apart is the synergies of the psychic powers (which GW hasn't shown us yet) stacking with everything else.
Guardians hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, plus Doom, plus who knows what else...and 80 point unit with an unimpressive statline can erase units worth several times its own cost.
It's not really 80 points when you have an Autarch and a Farseer baby sitting it. In fact, it's still worse than just two 80 point units of Guardians.
This^ I dont mind doing that for 10 Shadow Specters, b.c they are good and worth it, A unit or 2 troops with low damage/movement/survivability
Biel-Tan is up, more or less confirms the image making the rounds for the final two craftworlds. Can't say I'm too impressed. The fallback stratagem is army wide and looks good. But the Biel-Tan specific one is lacklustre to say the least. Their attribute matches up with the others we've seen as strictly 'okay'.
The Biel-tan Attribute is garbage. +1 Ld for Aspects is basically irrelevant. Re-rolling hits of 1 with shuriken weaponry is only even potentially that useful on a small number of units, and you get the same impact from an Autarch (and the Autarch buffs all kinds of attacks).
Maybe there is a case for taking a small Biel-tan Battalion consisting of psykers, triple shuriken cannon Serpents, and Guardians or Dire Avengers. Certainly no Autarch or other Aspects or other grav tanks. Serpents with cheap Troops are durable and unthreatening enough that maybe you'd rather the small increase in firepower instead of the defensive benefit of the Ulthwe or Alatoic Attributes. Though of course Ulthwe could have just used its Black Guardians stratagem to increase a Guardian squad's firepower by more, and that stacks with an Autarch.
My suspicion is that this codex is going to be very tame compared to the previous releases.
The old dynamic isn't here. Phil Kelly doesn't get to jack off onto blank paper and then turn it in as "the new Eldar codex" anymore. There's a team working on this that is very conciencious about the power level Eldar have enjoyed throughout the years.
I expect this release to be thoroughly middle of the pack in regards to competitive viability.
BlaxicanX wrote: My suspicion is that this codex is going to be very tame compared to the previous releases.
The old dynamic isn't here. Phil Kelly doesn't get to jack off onto blank paper and then turn it in as "the new Eldar codex" anymore. There's a team working on this that is very conciencious about the power level Eldar have enjoyed throughout the years.
I expect this release to be thoroughly middle of the pack in regards to competitive viability.
I don't care a whole lot about overall power level as long as it's not unplayable. I would just have liked to see decent internal balance. Unfortunately it appears that 2 of the Craftworlds are far and away better than the other 3. Like, if the idea was "let's not give Eldar anything too good" then it's just crazy to put out Attributes like Iyanden's and Biel-tan's and then give Alatoic the Raven Guard tactic (the pic that was going around seems to be pretty much confirmed at this point, but regardless Ulthwe's is also far better than the other two officially-announced ones). It's just very hard to believe that anyone actually spent significant amounts of time looking at these Attributes and decided that yes these are fluffy and reasonably balanced against each other.
Yes, internal balance does seem to be pretty awful. Eldar have had this issue forever with their units.
The problem is that alot of the issues with Eldar stuff can't be fixed with just points changes or a strategem. Units like Banshees need an entire overhaul in how they're expected to function. It's frustrating.
BlaxicanX wrote: My suspicion is that this codex is going to be very tame compared to the previous releases.
The old dynamic isn't here. Phil Kelly doesn't get to jack off onto blank paper and then turn it in as "the new Eldar codex" anymore. There's a team working on this that is very conciencious about the power level Eldar have enjoyed throughout the years.
I expect this release to be thoroughly middle of the pack in regards to competitive viability.
GW was fapping off to Eldar way before Phil Kelly.
The attributes sure sound fluffy. If you don't know the particulars of how those Craftworlds function.
The Biel-Tan shows this well - an attribute that's like having an Autarch around all the time is really fluffy (but might be a bit OP). So they restrict it to what almost all CWE use. Probably not even realizing that, of the CWE things that don't rely on them, most of them are Biel-Tan's core force.
I'm a pretty disappointed with the biel-tan attribute. I really wish they would've made it an increase to charge range or re-rolling advances or something like that. The re-roll 1 to hit on shuriken weapons is just really confusing considering that Autarchs are a big part of Biel-tan and their rules are incredible redundant now.
On the other hand the avatar may be a little better now. Hopefully it'll receive a slight points reduction, but the court of the young king ability has some potential with banshees and scorpions. Banshees would be at +6'' on a charge so you could get pretty far and wrap a unit
Another confusing thing is why do the avatar's abilities cost so many CP's? Most of the Imp Guard abilities only cost 1 and do about just as much.
Yeah, and since the Biel Tan one basically matches up to the image passed around in the rumor thread we can pretty well assume the other two are correct (or close to correct) as well. So unless we see a REALLY good deployment stratagem or something else juicy there is absolutely no reason to take Craftworlds competitively that I can see...and for those who like fluffy rules or for those of us who don't play one of these five Craftworlds, there is also no reason to take CWE fluff-wise. Pretty much an all-around failure to deliver on anything exciting, fun, or interesting. Maybe Eldar deserve this after 7th...lol.
momerathe wrote: Biel Tan should have Iyanden's attribute; Iyanden should have Ulthwe's; and Ulthwe should have Biel Tan's.
Why do you hate Ulthwe?
I think it's a better representation of Black Guardians than what they actually got. Also, they're less likely to have an Autarch for the bonus to overlap with.
momerathe wrote: Biel Tan should have Iyanden's attribute; Iyanden should have Ulthwe's; and Ulthwe should have Biel Tan's.
Why do you hate Ulthwe?
I think it's a better representation of Black Guardians than what they actually got. Also, they're less likely to have an Autarch for the bonus to overlap with.
Sure, but it's still bad and if you want to run lots of Guardians you would just go with one of the other two depending on how big your squads are. Like, re-rolling 1s to hit is just not that big of a deal. It's a 17% offense boost which lots of armies can get in aura form pretty cheaply. It doesn't play nice with either Autarchs or Guide. People would generally prefer Ulthwe or Alatoic even without the bizarre restriction to shuriken weapons. Like, the Salamanders' Tactic blows this out of the water and lots of people think Raven Guard's is still better.
Yeah, you're right. My main point was that, ignoring how effective or not they are, the attributes don't reflect the army composition of the craftworlds they've been given to - and they don't just fail to reflect it, they reflect other craftworlds' better than their own! I don't know what kind of weird mental disconnect was going on in their heads.
I'm gonna guess that Alaitoc's -1 to hit attribute will only apply to Infantry units aswell. Having Grav-tanks with Vectored Engines and Fliers at -2 to hit sounds a bit unlikely.
Aa things stand my Biel-Tan will continue to be used as Ynarri. Strength from Death gives me so much more tactical options and makes the army much more interesting to use.
DivineVisitor wrote: Aa things stand my Biel-Tan will continue to be used as Ynarri. Strength from Death gives me so much more tactical options and makes the army much more interesting to use.
I'm confused, What stops a player from fielding his army with the Biel-tan or Ulthwe attribute AND being Ynnari? Does every unit in a detachment have to have the <Craftworld> keyword in order to get the attribute? If so, could you not just take a Patrol detachment with a Ynnari HQ as your Warlord and a cheap Troop and all other detachments be 100% CWE?
DivineVisitor wrote: Aa things stand my Biel-Tan will continue to be used as Ynarri. Strength from Death gives me so much more tactical options and makes the army much more interesting to use.
I'm confused, What stops a player from fielding his army with the Biel-tan or Ulthwe attribute AND being Ynnari?
Does every unit in a detachment have to have the <Craftworld> keyword in order to get the attribute?
If so, could you not just take a Patrol detachment with a Ynnari HQ and a cheap Troop and all other detachments be 100% CWE?
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If you want to use Ynarri you need to use one of the three Ynarri characters as your Warlord. I'm assuming that if you have a unit without the Craftworld keyword you will lose your traits.
Is this not how the other armies with a Codex handle it?
DivineVisitor wrote: Aa things stand my Biel-Tan will continue to be used as Ynarri. Strength from Death gives me so much more tactical options and makes the army much more interesting to use.
I'm confused, What stops a player from fielding his army with the Biel-tan or Ulthwe attribute AND being Ynnari? Does every unit in a detachment have to have the <Craftworld> keyword in order to get the attribute? If so, could you not just take a Patrol detachment with a Ynnari HQ and a cheap Troop and all other detachments be 100% CWE?
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If you want to use Ynarri you need to use one of the three Ynarri characters as your Warlord. I'm assuming that if you have a unit without the Craftworld keyword you will lose your traits. Is this not how the other armies with a Codex handle it?
I thought attributes/traits were detachment based, while Ynnari was army based and only required an Ynnari Warlord
For example, you can have Patrol Detachment with only Yvraine and 5 Dire Avenger and Battalion detachment of CWE units As long as your Warlord is Yvraine, your WHOLE army is Ynnari and as long as all units in your Battalion are CWE, those units can be both Beil-tan AND Ynnari. It is only the 5 Dires that cannot be Biel-tan, because the Patrol Detachment has a non-CW unit in it (Yvraine)
well as it is right now - if you have the ynari keyword you lose battle focus/power from pain/ ect. I think it's reasonable to assume you will lose your army trait as well. Thought we don't know that for sure. It's also possible that ynnari might get their own army trait.
DivineVisitor wrote: Aa things stand my Biel-Tan will continue to be used as Ynarri. Strength from Death gives me so much more tactical options and makes the army much more interesting to use.
I'm confused, What stops a player from fielding his army with the Biel-tan or Ulthwe attribute AND being Ynnari?
Does every unit in a detachment have to have the <Craftworld> keyword in order to get the attribute?
If so, could you not just take a Patrol detachment with a Ynnari HQ and a cheap Troop and all other detachments be 100% CWE?
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If you want to use Ynarri you need to use one of the three Ynarri characters as your Warlord. I'm assuming that if you have a unit without the Craftworld keyword you will lose your traits.
Is this not how the other armies with a Codex handle it?
I thought attributes/traits were detachment based, while Ynnari was army based and only required an Ynnari Warlord
For example, if you have Patrol Detachment with only Yvraine and 5 Dire Avenger, but you have a Battalion detachment of CWE, as long as you Warlord is Yvraine, your army is Ynnari and as long as all units in your Battalion are CWE, those units can be both Beil-tan AND Ynnari. It is only the 5 Dires that cannot be Biel-tan
Someone correct me if I am wrong
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"If the Warlord of your army is either Yvraine, the Visarch or the Yncarne then – with the exception of <Haemonculus Coven> units, Urien Rakarth, Drazhar, Mandrakes and the Avatar of Khaine – any Aeldari unit can also be Ynnari.
Any unit that is gains the Ynnari keyword. These cannot use any of the following abilities, and are not considered to have them: Ancient Doom, Battle Focus, Rising Crescendo, Power from Pain. Instead, Ynnari Infantry and Ynnari Biker units gain the Strength from Death ability, as described below.
If your army is Battle-forged, Ynnari units can only be included in Detachments in which all units have the Ynnari keyword."
Looks like your right, to me that means if I want Yvraine the units in the detachment with her will be Ynarri but not benefit from Craftworld traits but my other detachments can receive both.
However I also use an Avatar of Khaine, so units in his detachment will benefit from their Craftworld traits but not be Ynarri.
DivineVisitor wrote: Aa things stand my Biel-Tan will continue to be used as Ynarri. Strength from Death gives me so much more tactical options and makes the army much more interesting to use.
I'm confused, What stops a player from fielding his army with the Biel-tan or Ulthwe attribute AND being Ynnari?
Does every unit in a detachment have to have the <Craftworld> keyword in order to get the attribute?
If so, could you not just take a Patrol detachment with a Ynnari HQ and a cheap Troop and all other detachments be 100% CWE?
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If you want to use Ynarri you need to use one of the three Ynarri characters as your Warlord. I'm assuming that if you have a unit without the Craftworld keyword you will lose your traits.
Is this not how the other armies with a Codex handle it?
I thought attributes/traits were detachment based, while Ynnari was army based and only required an Ynnari Warlord
For example, you can have Patrol Detachment with only Yvraine and 5 Dire Avenger and Battalion detachment of CWE units
As long as your Warlord is Yvraine, your WHOLE army is Ynnari and as long as all units in your Battalion are CWE, those units can be both Beil-tan AND Ynnari. It is only the 5 Dires that cannot be Biel-tan, because the Patrol Detachment has a non-CW unit in it (Yvraine)
Someone please correct me if I am wrong
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For all the other armies so far, traits have only required a battleforged detachment to work.
So (under the current rules) You could have Yvraine as your warlord, in a patrol detachment with... I dunno, some Harlequin Troupes. Then have a seperate Ulthwe detachment, with a Farseer and guardians and Jetbikes and War Walkers and whatever. And all the Ulthwe stuff would get the 6+++, while Yvraine and the Harlequins don't. Everyone from both detachments would get Strength from Death.
I say under the current rules, because we haven't seen the traits pages from the codex yet. They may have a specific line that says "If your warlord is Ynnari, then your whole army can not gain a trait" or something like that. People have asked this a couple pages back, and I gave the same response.
TLDR: Yes, unless they change the rules, which we wont know until codex released.
However I also use an Avatar of Khaine, so units in his detachment will benefit from their Craftworld traits but not be Ynarri.
True. And you can't put him in the same detachment as Yvraine either. So you would need to have 3 detachments -
Detachment 1) Yvraine as warlord, + filler units for requirements (Harlequins probably best option, until they get codex/traits)
Detachment 2) Avatar as HQ, + filler units for requirements (... I would say put in haemonculous units, but would mean avatar gets no craftworld trait. He doesn't benefit much from them anyway though.)
Detachment 3) Craftworld units.
If your warlord is Ynarri, all units in the army gain the SfD ability and lose whatever army wide ability they had.
That means that if you have Ynarri Warlord your units cannot benefit from both SfD and whatever attribute they would otherwise have had.
Is this not correct?
No, the Ynnari rules only say they lose Battle Focus. Most armies get two special rules, one from their faction and one from their subfaction. Space Marines get ATSKNF and Tactics. CSMs get Death to the False Emperor and Traits. AdMech get Canticles and Dogmas. Craftworld Eldar will have Battle Focus and Attributes. If the codex looks like other codices, then Ynnari would get SfD and Attributes.
Any unit that is gains the Ynnari keyword. These cannot use any of the following abilities, and are not considered to have them: Ancient Doom, Battle Focus, Rising Crescendo, Power from Pain.
I don't see how this allows you to have the Craftworld wide rules and Ynarri rules
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok just seen the previous post. I think I understand but this really isn't very clear when reading and no doubt will be subject to challenge by some of my opponents.
Drake003 wrote: Any unit that is gains the Ynnari keyword. These cannot use any of the following abilities, and are not considered to have them: Ancient Doom, Battle Focus, Rising Crescendo, Power from Pain.
I don't see how this allows you to have the Craftworld wide rules and Ynarri rules
I don't see where it says anything about Craftworld Attributes?
momerathe wrote: Biel Tan should have Iyanden's attribute; Iyanden should have Ulthwe's; and Ulthwe should have Biel Tan's.
agreed. Just like marines, What GW imagines, and how the traits actually interact with list building are (craft)worlds apart.
Also of note is the cost of some of these stratagems; not sure why they need to be pricey when CWE are unlikely to have many CP. “look at this killer combo; blow your points in one phase of the game and have no rerolls left; it will be epic!”, except it likely won’t be.
Drake003 wrote: Any unit that is gains the Ynnari keyword. These cannot use any of the following abilities, and are not considered to have them: Ancient Doom, Battle Focus, Rising Crescendo, Power from Pain.
I don't see how this allows you to have the Craftworld wide rules and Ynarri rules
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok just seen the previous post. I think I understand but this really isn't very clear when reading and no doubt will be subject to challenge by some of my opponents.
Your opponents can't challenge it... there is literally no basis in the current rules to challenge it. Strength From Death replaces Battle Focus, that's it. Craftworld traits are a whole separate category. Under the current rules (which might change, see my previous two posts on this exact same subject...sigh) You can have Strength From Death AND a Craftworld Trait, no problem.
There is (currently) no ambiguity on this subject, the rules are crystal clear. However, they may change, as we HAVE NOT SEEN the rules for craftworl traits yet. They may specifically say that Ynnari cannot get them. We just don't know. Wait a week and find out.
So why then do you need to take a separate detachment for the Ynarri HQ seperate from the rest of the Craftworld units?
If they all gain the Ynarri key world and just lose the abilities but not attributes then surely you can take say Yvraine to lead a Ulthwe army in an Ulthwe detachment.
So why then do you need to take a separate detachment for the Ynarri HQ seperate from the rest of the Craftworld units?
If they all gain the Ynarri key world and just lose the abilities but not attributes then surely you can take say Yvraine to lead a Ulthwe army in an Ulthwe detachment.
Sorry if I'm being slow on this.
I think it is because the CW attribute can only be given to a detachment if all units in the detachment can take it. Since Yvraine cannot take the Biel-tan attribute, it disqualifies any other units in the same detachment from taking it as well. So while she makes the whole army Ynnari, she has to be in a different detachment so that the other one can claim to be Biel-tan.
So why then do you need to take a separate detachment for the Ynarri HQ seperate from the rest of the Craftworld units?
If they all gain the Ynarri key world and just lose the abilities but not attributes then surely you can take say Yvraine to lead a Ulthwe army in an Ulthwe detachment.
Sorry if I'm being slow on this.
The other codices only give a detachment a trait if every unit in the detachment has the right keyword. Yvraine herself doesn't have <Craftworld>, so she might prevent her detachment from getting a trait. But of course the codex could say that the Ynnari HQs don't stop you from getting a trait (the Chaos and Guard codices do this kind of thing).
The lack of a price break on guardians is deeply disappointing. A lot of 8th ed is extremely troops-driven, both in rewards for CP and the relative power of high model count low point units.
Most of the competitive armies are driven by access to good, cheap troops. AM have it, chaos has it and while SM is more dubious in that regard, Girlyman not only brings his own command points to compensate, but also flips the math so much it's out of line with every other aura in the game.
So without guardians, our hopes really have to come to Dire Avengers and Rangers. I think dire avengers won't qualify as 'good' until they see something like 10 points per model, which seems unlikely (even though they'd still be worse than brimstones, conscripts, noise marines and cultists). They'll probably be passable at 12, but certainly not amazing.
Rangers are my bigger hope. I think if they got to 13-15 ppm (25%-30% decrease, not unheard of), we could get some real use out of them. They are durable for elves, would be cheap-ish due to their low numbers and counter a real issue in the meta, which is the power of characters. They would be solid for removing commissars, maelific lords and, if we're talking 3-6 units of them, a genuine threat to more potent characters. They wouldn't earn back their points in shooting very often, but you'd be taking them for command points and their ability to appear on and then camp objectives.
drakerocket wrote: The lack of a price break on guardians is deeply disappointing.
Considering that all the CW attributes we have seen so far have all been beneficial to Guardians, I am not surprised that they stayed the same price
I'll be disappointed if Windrider and Rangers stay the same cost, though. Or if Dire Avengers are any more than 13ppm
Beneficial, yes, but they aren't good even if they are inched up. There is very little traits can do for them to make up for points. Plenty of armies have gotten price breaks *and* other things to improve under-preforming units (LRs for guard, Noise Marines for chaos, etc).
I mean, it's possible battle focus will get some amazing improvement to blow it out of the water or some new psychic power will make taking a blob of guardians super good. But I doubt it.
momerathe wrote: Biel Tan should have Iyanden's attribute; Iyanden should have Ulthwe's; and Ulthwe should have Biel Tan's.
Like, re-rolling 1s to hit is just not that big of a deal. It's a 17% offense boost which lots of armies can get in aura form pretty cheaply.
[Post-initial-submit-edit] Forget my wrong calculation here.. removed it after being corrected.
However, I see room for all Craftworld attributes so far. Ulthwe is the most versatile, but I could imagine going for different Craftworld detachements with different unit selections. At a pinch you can go for one Defender Guardian unit with Ulthwe attribute to defend an objective close to your own deployment zone while going for one in the opponent's zone with a unit of Biel-Tan Dire Avengers. The one unit is slightly more defensive while the other one is slightly more offensive. Both are just minor adjustments but you can not expect a detachement-wide attribute to double the output/resistance of a single unit.
The attributes might be a little bit underwhelming at first but I like that they don't restrict your army composition and keep it simple. We'll see what it's worth in total if the full codex is revealed.
Have to correct that one slightly. Rerolling 1s is roughly a 11% boost for units starting with a BS of 3. More for a better BS, less for a worse BS. FNP works after all saves have been made, rerolls only work for a certain amount of all hits is why it doesn't just translate to a general 1/6 improvement here.
You mean that re-rolling 1s causes an additional 11% of hit rolls to hit, but this is not really a number anyone cares about. The better way to think about it is that it's a 17% increase in the number of hits you expect.
Have to correct that one slightly. Rerolling 1s is roughly a 11% boost for units starting with a BS of 3. More for a better BS, less for a worse BS. FNP works after all saves have been made, rerolls only work for a certain amount of all hits is why it doesn't just translate to a general 1/6 improvement here.
You mean that re-rolling 1s causes an additional 11% of hit rolls to hit, but this is not really a number anyone cares about. The better way to think about it is that it's a 17% increase in the number of hits you expect.
You're right. Got my numbers wrong and argue the converse.
momerathe wrote: Biel Tan should have Iyanden's attribute; Iyanden should have Ulthwe's; and Ulthwe should have Biel Tan's.
Like, re-rolling 1s to hit is just not that big of a deal. It's a 17% offense boost which lots of armies can get in aura form pretty cheaply.
Have to correct that one slightly. Rerolling 1s is roughly a 11% boost for units starting with a BS of 3. More for a better BS, less for a worse BS. FNP works after all saves have been made, rerolls only work for a certain amount of all hits is why it doesn't just translate to a general 1/6 improvement here.
However, I see room for all Craftworld attributes so far. Ulthwe is the most versatile, but I could imagine going for different Craftworld detachements with different unit selections. At a pinch you can go for one Defender Guardian unit with Ulthwe attribute to defend an objective close to your own deployment zone while going for one in the opponent's zone with a unit of Biel-Tan Dire Avengers. The one unit is slightly more defensive while the other one is slightly more offensive. Both are just minor adjustments but you can not expect a detachement-wide attribute to double the output/resistance of a single unit.
The attributes might be a little bit underwhelming at first but I like that they don't restrict your army composition and keep it simple. We'll see what it's worth in total if the full codex is revealed.
Pretty much everything is underwhelming so far. No one is going to be too upset if we don't have the most rocking traits, but eldar are in a poor position right now. They need considerable boosts and there are only so many forms in which those can come (traits were one of them). Guardians needed to go down in points to be on par with good troops: they didn't. Wraithblades are a poorly designed unit: giving them morale boosts and an increase to toughness isn't what they needed to be a well designed unit (they needed protections against multi-wound weapons and plasma and/or considerable mobility). The spirit seer thing is nice, and that unit will likely see use now, but I'm not sure anyone was asking for spirit seers to become core of the meta, and they needed a change to their buff to synergize properly with the most common unit they are buffing: scytheguard, which they continue to do nothing for. Wraithlords and wraithknights really need a lot of help to be good. Same goes for striking scorpions, war walkers and banshees. Dire avengers are getting a point drop, but if it's a point off their weapon and a point off the unit, they will still be awful. The number of avenues for some pretty drastic improvements shrinks every time a new spoiler comes out. That's what's disconcerting, not so much the individual traits.
Guardians are double the price of Guardsmen...and 1/3 again as expensive as Veterans. So it seems somewhere in the mix GW is hugely overvaluing Battle Focus, 1" of movement, or shuriken catapults (I will happily concede that BS 3+ is likely worth 2 pts per model).
Starting with the catapults, they are definitely better than lasguns profile-wise, but their 12" range makes them nearly useless this edition. I struggle to think of an infantry unit that CAN'T outrange the Guardians, not to mention specialty units. But some might say, well the 1" and Battle Focus make up for that! Well let's say on average that's 4" additional mobility over a Guard infantry...that still only increases their weapon's threat range to 16"...the lasgun reaching 24" plus the varied and tactically diverse benefits of orders is definitely worth more in 8th, in my experience.
Some might also say this is what Wave Serpents are for...but there are honestly there are so many better things that get more value out of being in a Wave Serpent.
Without a price break or a Webway/Deep Strike stratagem (which we might still get, we'll see...) guaranteeing at least one round of shooting spending 80pts minimum on 10 models with T3 and a 5+ (and access to 4++ for some CP here and there) seems pretty hard to justify given what we've seen.
Surely it's 11% extra hits overall though? I.e. 33% fail on first volley. Half of which will be 1's that you can re roll (so 16.5% so far), of which 66% of those re-rolls which result in the additional hits, which rounds up to 11% extra hits from the 100% initial volley.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Guardians might still see a drop to 7 points. I don't think its single point would be article worthy, and probably raise more negative storm from a news point of view, but may well be in he Codex once it drops. That would put them on par with Kabalite Warriors for points and still bit better than right now.
Drake003 wrote: Guardians might still see a drop to 7 points. I don't think its single point would be article worthy, and probably raise more negative storm from a news point of view, but may well be in he Codex once it drops. That would put them on par with Kabalite Warriors for points and still bit better than right now.
I think an important note on the article is that is says "at no extra cost" or something like that. All that means is that Guardians are no more expensive, but does not have to mean they are the same cost.
They could indeed be cheaper as you say.
exliontamer wrote: Guardians are double the price of Guardsmen...and 1/3 again as expensive as Veterans. So it seems somewhere in the mix GW is hugely overvaluing Battle Focus, 1" of movement, or shuriken catapults (I will happily concede that BS 3+ is likely worth 2 pts per model).
Starting with the catapults, they are definitely better than lasguns profile-wise, but their 12" range makes them nearly useless this edition. I struggle to think of an infantry unit that CAN'T outrange the Guardians, not to mention specialty units. But some might say, well the 1" and Battle Focus make up for that! Well let's say on average that's 4" additional mobility over a Guard infantry...that still only increases their weapon's threat range to 16"...the lasgun reaching 24" plus the varied and tactically diverse benefits of orders is definitely worth more in 8th, in my experience.
Some might also say this is what Wave Serpents are for...but there are honestly there are so many better things that get more value out of being in a Wave Serpent.
Without a price break or a Webway/Deep Strike stratagem (which we might still get, we'll see...) guaranteeing at least one round of shooting spending 80pts minimum on 10 models with T3 and a 5+ (and access to 4++ for some CP here and there) seems pretty hard to justify given what we've seen.
I think that in general the index suffers from GW not actually understanding why other armies' point costs work out okay. Like, a tactical marine is 13 points. This seems like a lot for what they are. You'll note that nobody is taking squads of bolter marines. Everyone who brings tactical squads is also upgrading one of them with a special weapon, and is never even just bringing extra tacticals. It's always 5 guys. What this says is that the actual marines are overcosted while their weapons are relatively undercosted. The final result can work out to be about right -- you buy some expensive marines and then a cheap weapon. This works out because the bolter marines you have to buy function as ablative wounds for the weapon. The squad's firepower degrades only slowly as it takes casualties because the bolter marines aren't adding much.
Eldar squads are weird because they don't really get special weapons. Typically, every model in the unit is pretty well-armed. 8 points for a Guardian would be a perfectly reasonable price as an upgrade to an IG Infantry Squad, where you upgrade two of them and then still have six or seven 4-point wounds in the unit. But it doesn't work well for actual Guardians because you start losing your expensive shuriken catapults as soon as the squad takes any fire. You're basically forced to put them in a Serpent because in order to get value out of them they have to shoot before they get shot. This is true for special weapons in every army, but in other armies those weapons can hide behind other members of the squad.
I think that's where it's coming from, mostly. Eldar models are priced as if they're upgrades to a squad of cheaper dudes.
Drake003 wrote: Surely it's 11% extra hits overall though? I.e. 33% fail on first volley. Half of which will be 1's that you can re roll (so 16.5% so far), of which 66% of those re-rolls which result in the additional hits, which rounds up to 11% extra hits from the 100% initial volley.
It's an increase of 11 percentage points. Which is also a ~17 percent increase . As a rule of thumb, percentage points add, while percent multiply. Mind you, newspapers get this wrong all the time too.
Colgado wrote: Biel-Tan is up, more or less confirms the image making the rounds for the final two craftworlds. Can't say I'm too impressed. The fallback stratagem is army wide and looks good. But the Biel-Tan specific one is lacklustre to say the least. Their attribute matches up with the others we've seen as strictly 'okay'.
As a person that has many Shuirken bikes and Walkers, that likes to use Wraithguard and Jain Zar fitted in WS with Shuirken.
This works out for me, most my army will Re-roll 1's, my Wraithguard can now Fallback and shoot, Jain Zar can charge a vehicle, fallback and charge something else aswell.
They can do that anyway thanks to their "Implacable" rule.
I seriously hope they keep that in the new Codex.
Not only should they keep it, but they should give it to Wraithlords too. It's weird that WG and WKs can fallback and still shoot, but the "in-between" construct cannot.
Yeah your right, i completely forgot, i just dont play them to muhc, been focusing on harlequins, im so used the them ALWAYS having it and i think not many others do, just rules mix up.
My army usually consists of about 4 wave serpents containing avengers/guardians, fire dragons and something else. The serpents have 3 Shuriken cannons each so they can still shoot after advancing and stay cheap as they are primarily for transporting stuff. It's a classic swordwind type list and gains a decent boost from reroll ones on shurikens. +1 ld on 10 man aspect units is relevant even if it's minor.
Doesn't seem that bad to me.
Altioc is a nice trait in general but is not as good for a list that likes to get in close.
Ulthwe is solid but I think increased firepower is better than increased defence for a list which is all about glass cannon units.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: My army usually consists of about 4 wave serpents containing avengers/guardians, fire dragons and something else. The serpents have 3 Shuriken cannons each so they can still shoot after advancing and stay cheap as they are primarily for transporting stuff. It's a classic swordwind type list and gains a decent boost from reroll ones on shurikens. +1 ld on 10 man aspect units is relevant even if it's minor.
Doesn't seem that bad to me.
Altioc is a nice trait in general but is not as good for a list that likes to get in close.
Ulthwe is solid but I think increased firepower is better than increased defence for a list which is all about glass cannon units.
The reroll on shuriken weapons is interesting, sure. I can see it being worth it if you run an army with all shuriken weapons. Dire Avengers, Jetbikes, Shurikan serpents. It might make for an interesting theme, especially if starcannons and scatter lasers remain as terrible as they are at the moment.
With what has been released so far I may use the Iyanden trait for my Yme-Loc forces. Negating damage profiles on vehicles seems to fit their theme a little better. Ulthwe is still tempting.
Altioc is a nice trait in general but is not as good for a list that likes to get in close.
Ulthwe is solid but I think increased firepower is better than increased defence for a list which is all about glass cannon units.
I disagree with the alaitoc comment. Because the list wants to get close it is super useful. Helps to minimise casualties moving in so that your close range weapons can take effect. Plus if you pick your point of attack it can be difficult for an opponent to get everything into that 12 inch range.
This ability in an army that already has easy access to -1 to hit through conceal and decent units that already carry -1 to hit in built is potentially amazing. It remains to be seen if they even get that ability and if it applies to all craftworld units or just infantry and bikes. But shadow spectres, warp spiders and hemlocks at -3 to hit will be crazy. Not to mention all the fliers, vectored engined vehicles etc at -2
Altioc is a nice trait in general but is not as good for a list that likes to get in close.
Ulthwe is solid but I think increased firepower is better than increased defence for a list which is all about glass cannon units.
I disagree with the alaitoc comment. Because the list wants to get close it is super useful. Helps to minimise casualties moving in so that your close range weapons can take effect. Plus if you pick your point of attack it can be difficult for an opponent to get everything into that 12 inch range.
This ability in an army that already has easy access to -1 to hit through conceal and decent units that already carry -1 to hit in built is potentially amazing. It remains to be seen if they even get that ability and if it applies to all craftworld units or just infantry and bikes. But shadow spectres, warp spiders and hemlocks at -3 to hit will be crazy. Not to mention all the fliers, vectored engined vehicles etc at -2
Shadow specters are amazing as Alaitoc. Combine with a Hemlock Wraithfighter (Conceal) and Irrilyth and you are causing serious deaths. Combine a -2 leadership, roll 2 dice for moral take highest, 2+ save in cover, and a -3 to hit. Lastly specters have a 18" range with weapons (up to 3 strength 6, AP -3, dmg 1) and great charge deterrent heavy flamer equivalent. Hello to the new Warp Spider hater replacement.
I find that the different CWTactics are quite well balanced with each other.
Ulthwe: Bland but nice. Iyanden: The wraith bonus is not as good as Ulthwe, but also adds a commissar effect to all infantry. Biel Tan: Increasing damage output by 1/6 is usually better than reducing wounds suffered by 1/6, but since it is limited to shuriken weapons then the Ulthwe bonus comes ahead. For this reason GW has put a +1 ld in there, to even the scales. Alaitoc: Nice defensive buff, but highly situational. Sometimes you will find that you are playing without a CWTactic. Saim-Han: Got to see exactly how it is worded. I don't think it will affect only bikes, it would go against GW design principles.
Spectres are already one of the best units for eldar. Adding an extra -1 is ludicrous. Hopefully warp spiders will get a bit of a fix or point reduction as well to compliment.
I wouldn't call alaitoc's bonus situational. It's just what eldar love. Another tool to dictate the flow of battle. Sitting back at range with -1 to hit forces the enemy to play to your style, and come into that 12" danger zone that most of the eldar units love. Especially with the mobility of the eldar where they can better keep the enemy at arms length.
Yes, if Alatoic works the way it seems like it will then it's pretty clearly the best Attribute in almost every case for almost every unit. Eldar have the most trouble against low-BS hordes and this is a massive durability increase against them, and a good durability increase in general. It is possible that Alatoic's will contain language like Ulthwe's where it won't stack with other similar effects (though this would again have a bizarrely unfluffy effect in that it would do nothing for Rangers). In this case you'll generally prefer Ulthwe for those units, and Hemlocks would just be sad since no Attribute would actually get them much of anything.
Ulthwe is perfectly fine. It's less of a durability buff than Alatoic outside of 12", but it's not that much worse against BS3+ for most units, and obviously it also works at close range. It's also almost strictly superior to Iyanden unless you're willing to take Spirit Stones to get the Iyanden trait on grav tanks (not worth it IMO). Note that it is a 20% increase in durability, not 17% -- it's 6/5 not 1-5/6 or however people are getting that it's a 1/6 increase.
Biel-Tan is good for specific units but you will basically never want an all Biel-Tan army. Possibly the best choice for Guardians and Dire Avengers in Serpents, but that's it.
Even if Saim-Hann lets BIKE units re-roll charges and lets everything move and shoot with heavy weapons it's still likely to be pretty mediocre. How many failed charges do you expect to see from Shining Spears in a given game? Why not just use 1 or 2 CP re-rolling one die from these instead of wasting a trait selection? Guardian Heavy Weapon Platforms are still going to be bad. Scatter Lasers are probably still going to be bad. The big winners here are Wraithlords, really, since nothing else needs to be moving that much. There's a reason why GW just let Russes move and shoot their main gun and let Baneblades move and shoot heavy weapons: this benefit is not actually worth that much on long-range heavy weapons platforms, but it's stupid as hell to not be able to move your tanks for fear of missing. Wraithlords are the only thing that actually benefit a great deal from being able to move and shoot heavies, since they want to get into CC.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So now we know that the Saim-Hann Attribute is this:
Re-rolling charges doesn't seem particularly great unless lots of other CC units become useful. It's a pretty big deal for Scorpions if they're otherwise worth taking because they need to pull off a 9" charge. Serpent-borne units are typically pretty close when they charge, and Banshees even get a bonus. I don't feel like Shining Spears need this because you wanted to be within 6" anyway to shoot their lances. Windriders should be staying farther back and not charging.
Scatter lasers will need to be really good to be worth taking over shuriken cannons and an otherwise-better Attribute on Windriders or Vypers. Possibly bright lances on Vypers will make sense.
The heavy weapons on move buff is just for bikes, but the charge re-rolls for everyone. I was hoping for it to be army wide to help the aforementioned wraith lords.
Old battle focus is back as a stratagem which I think most saw coming. And a points reduction to windriders and scatter lasers is definitely welcome. Not the best attribute but scatpack Saim-hann armies look to make a return. Otherwise the article was lighter than some of the others.
But how much is a "considerable" cost reduction? Scatbikes are 35ppm in the Index, are we looking at 25ppm now? 15ppm for the Windrider, 10ppm for the Scatter laser?
That's the minimum reduction that would make them even remotely appealing. Any higher and most players will leave them on the shelf.
Fire and fade is nice to have access to. Tho only a 7" move (which is still great). Should help a lot of units out of sticky situations and minimise harm.
Now to see what wording alaitoc gets. If it's similar to the ulthwe one in that there is the provision that they can't get any other -Ve hit it would make sense but be disappointing. Especially since Rangers wouldn't benefit. Which would make zero sense but be not surprising and fit with the headscratching applications some of the other rules have illicited.
Will be interesting to see how much of a point reduction they are talking about for some key models. And how reworked the fire prism is. Could it actually be playable?! (Doubt it)
Dionysodorus wrote: Yes, if Alatoic works the way it seems like it will then it's pretty clearly the best Attribute in almost every case for almost every unit. Eldar have the most trouble against low-BS hordes and this is a massive durability increase against them, and a good durability increase in general. It is possible that Alatoic's will contain language like Ulthwe's where it won't stack with other similar effects (though this would again have a bizarrely unfluffy effect in that it would do nothing for Rangers). In this case you'll generally prefer Ulthwe for those units, and Hemlocks would just be sad since no Attribute would actually get them much of anything.
Ulthwe is perfectly fine. It's less of a durability buff than Alatoic outside of 12", but it's not that much worse against BS3+ for most units, and obviously it also works at close range. It's also almost strictly superior to Iyanden unless you're willing to take Spirit Stones to get the Iyanden trait on grav tanks (not worth it IMO). Note that it is a 20% increase in durability, not 17% -- it's 6/5 not 1-5/6 or however people are getting that it's a 1/6 increase.
I know, that's why i said "Reducing wounds suffered", i didn't talk about survivability, which indeed is 20% more. Generally though, offensive buffs are better than defensive buffs, since you have more choice in how to exploit them, while defensive buffs usually involve a choice for the opponent.
Also, Alaitoc is not strictly superior to Yianden if you are facing an assault army. That's the main point of it,too many people here are assuming that the shooting centric meta we have now, will still be here after all the codices have landed. Be alert, we have yet to receive a codex for assault armies, many thing could change.
momerathe wrote: Biel Tan should have Iyanden's attribute; Iyanden should have Ulthwe's; and Ulthwe should have Biel Tan's.
Like, re-rolling 1s to hit is just not that big of a deal. It's a 17% offense boost which lots of armies can get in aura form pretty cheaply.
Have to correct that one slightly. Rerolling 1s is roughly a 11% boost for units starting with a BS of 3. More for a better BS, less for a worse BS. FNP works after all saves have been made, rerolls only work for a certain amount of all hits is why it doesn't just translate to a general 1/6 improvement here.
However, I see room for all Craftworld attributes so far. Ulthwe is the most versatile, but I could imagine going for different Craftworld detachements with different unit selections. At a pinch you can go for one Defender Guardian unit with Ulthwe attribute to defend an objective close to your own deployment zone while going for one in the opponent's zone with a unit of Biel-Tan Dire Avengers. The one unit is slightly more defensive while the other one is slightly more offensive. Both are just minor adjustments but you can not expect a detachement-wide attribute to double the output/resistance of a single unit.
The attributes might be a little bit underwhelming at first but I like that they don't restrict your army composition and keep it simple. We'll see what it's worth in total if the full codex is revealed.
Pretty much everything is underwhelming so far. No one is going to be too upset if we don't have the most rocking traits, but eldar are in a poor position right now. They need considerable boosts and there are only so many forms in which those can come (traits were one of them). Guardians needed to go down in points to be on par with good troops: they didn't. Wraithblades are a poorly designed unit: giving them morale boosts and an increase to toughness isn't what they needed to be a well designed unit (they needed protections against multi-wound weapons and plasma and/or considerable mobility). The spirit seer thing is nice, and that unit will likely see use now, but I'm not sure anyone was asking for spirit seers to become core of the meta, and they needed a change to their buff to synergize properly with the most common unit they are buffing: scytheguard, which they continue to do nothing for. Wraithlords and wraithknights really need a lot of help to be good. Same goes for striking scorpions, war walkers and banshees. Dire avengers are getting a point drop, but if it's a point off their weapon and a point off the unit, they will still be awful. The number of avenues for some pretty drastic improvements shrinks every time a new spoiler comes out. That's what's disconcerting, not so much the individual traits.
>Points decrease to windrider weapons
>Allowing windriders to fire heavy weapons with no penalty
>Allowing units to reroll 1s
Combine those three and congrats, you've gotten broken windriders wrecking tables all over again. (And their stats got BETTER in 8th)
>Points decrease to windrider weapons
>Allowing windriders to fire heavy weapons with no penalty
>Allowing units to reroll 1s
Combine those three and congrats, you've gotten broken windriders wrecking tables all over again. (And their stats got BETTER in 8th)
Not really, the problem with windriders in 7th was their ability to always scoot 2d6" away every single time they shot someone. Now you can only do that for a CP, and in matched play you can only do it once a turn. Combine that with the loss of Jink and they are definitely not 7E broken.
>Points decrease to windrider weapons
>Allowing windriders to fire heavy weapons with no penalty
>Allowing units to reroll 1s
Combine those three and congrats, you've gotten broken windriders wrecking tables all over again. (And their stats got BETTER in 8th)
I assume you're talking about traits there? Or do you mean the reroll 1's from an Autarch? Wind riders had that already in the index, and it wasn't overpowered then. The only difference between the index and now, is that they might be a bit cheaper, and they don't get -1 to hit when firing heavy weapons. Hardly a huge difference, depending on how much cheaper they are.
They are still incredibly fragile, able to be killed off in droves by any D2 weaponry (which is very common). They will go from being expensive and useless, to being ok and usable. They will only be "wrecking tables" if they drop in points by a lot. They'd pretty much have to become half the price they are right now.
>Points decrease to windrider weapons >Allowing windriders to fire heavy weapons with no penalty >Allowing units to reroll 1s
Combine those three and congrats, you've gotten broken windriders wrecking tables all over again. (And their stats got BETTER in 8th)
Hardly. They still only have a 4+ armour in an edition that will often reduce that. No option to Jink Even with the Fire & Fade stratagem, that's only 1 unit per turn and spends CPs in a faction have can't get very many CPs to start with Windrider are not Troops, thus limiting the options to get said CPs Even with a points drop, Shuricannons are probably still better in this edition than Scatter lasers because cover improves armour (so you NEED that occasional AP -3) and stripping HPs (which is what made Scatters good) is no longer a thing.
Please don't jump to false conclusions. Scatterbike spam is not back, nor will it ever be
In 7E you could spam mid strenght high rate of fire weapons and they would be good against any target.
Try to take down tanks without dedicated weapons in 8E (and without a certain primarch that ignores every design decision behind this edition).
Spoletta wrote: In 7E you could spam mid strenght high rate of fire weapons and they would be good against any target.
Try to take down tanks without dedicated weapons in 8E (and without a certain primarch that ignores every design decision behind this edition).
Exactly. Even if Scatterbikes cost exactly the same as 7th, had 3+ armour and were Troops, they would not be a top-tier choice in 8th due to the vast differences between editions (vehicles being tougher, massed hordes winning games, etc)
Spoletta wrote: In 7E you could spam mid strenght high rate of fire weapons and they would be good against any target.
Try to take down tanks without dedicated weapons in 8E (and without a certain primarch that ignores every design decision behind this edition).
Exactly. Even if Scatterbikes cost exactly the same as 7th, had 3+ armour and were Troops, they would not be a top-tier choice in 8th due to the vast differences between editions (vehicles being tougher, massed hordes winning games, etc)
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Scatter Lasers also had AP5, meaning they ignoned the armour saves of Guardsmen, Guardians, Kabalite Warriors, Ork Boyz and many other things. In 8th, all those things get a save.
Scatter Lasers also had AP5, meaning they ignoned the armour saves of Guardsmen, Guardians, Kabalite Warriors, Ork Boyz and many other things. In 8th, all those things get a save.
Ap6, actually, but that didn't matter when EVERYTHING you mentioned got a cover save that was better than their armour. So really nothing changed. They still get a save. But thanks for adding to my point that Scatter lasers are far worse in 8th even with a points decrease.
I could see having a supreme command detachment of 3 Warlock Windriders under the Saim Hann craftworld attribute to ensure that they can charge and keep up with the CC aspect warriors they are following. The Saim-Hann trait is again a little underwhelming. I think these traits are going to make eldar a lot more versatile though, and hopefully different models to the table top.
The best thing that the Saim hann trait looked good for is all of these vypers that are sitting on the shelf. They can move really fast and would probably benefit most from the 7'' move stratagem. A squad of 3 with AML could be a really fast and devastating unit. 20'' move with the flexibility of the AML means you could take on a lot of targets effectively. Apparently vypers also received a small points reduction AND gained the biker keyword which means that they can benefit from conceal now too.
Also, scatter lasers are bad now because of the new wounding system. They used to wound T3 and T4 infantry on 2's but now they only wound T3 infantry on 2's which makes them less effective and doesn't make up for the lack of AP; plus vehicles have armour saves now. I think AML's will take the place of scatter lasers because of the two firing modes.
I think it is worth just bearing in mind, when making comments about how good or bad things are, that everything becomes good at the right price point.
So until we see actual points on things, we don't know how powerful units, and the traits on balance, will be.
Just making the comment as several posters have mention how under whelming certain units are. We will only know on balance once we have the full picture.
Drake003 wrote: I think it is worth just bearing in mind, when making comments about how good or bad things are, that everything becomes good at the right price point.
True. I would run 200 10 point Bikes if allowed.
Also, people seem to get annoyed that not every book is as flexible as Guard. GW is still making more units viable, with the right craft world then they used to be. Heck in early 7th Eldar had 1 viable list spaming basicly 3 units and Eldrad. It wasnt until several years in that you saw formations make bikes good enough, or wraith worth taking.
I think the SaimHamm trait is amazing if you where one of those early adapters in 4th ed who had 50+ Banshees (they used to ignore saves, and 20 of em could easily kill a land raider)
Drake003 wrote: I think it is worth just bearing in mind, when making comments about how good or bad things are, that everything becomes good at the right price point.
So until we see actual points on things, we don't know how powerful units, and the traits on balance, will be.
Just making the comment as several posters have mention how under whelming certain units are. We will only know on balance once we have the full picture.
To be fair, those things used to be much more powerfull in 7E and costed less than half than what they cost now. They would need a really dramatic point cost reduction to become broken.
Bharring wrote: Actually they were AP6 - one of the few things those units (aside from Boyz) got saves against.
Oh yeah, it was Shuricannons that were AP5. I ran lots of those on my vehicles and apparently got them mixed up. My defence is I didn't play 7th for very long.
I know, that's why i said "Reducing wounds suffered", i didn't talk about survivability, which indeed is 20% more. Generally though, offensive buffs are better than defensive buffs, since you have more choice in how to exploit them, while defensive buffs usually involve a choice for the opponent.
Also, Alaitoc is not strictly superior to Yianden if you are facing an assault army. That's the main point of it,too many people here are assuming that the shooting centric meta we have now, will still be here after all the codices have landed. Be alert, we have yet to receive a codex for assault armies, many thing could change.
Fair enough re: the percentages (sorry, I'd seen a bunch of other people talking about it as a 17% survivablity buff), but then you're not really comparing like things. Ulthwe is a 20% defensive buff while Biel-Tan is a 17% offensive buff. I disagree with your analysis of offensive and defensive buffs; it depends entirely on which units you can give them to. You always prefer an offensive buff on something inside of a Serpent, because it will get to attack before it gets attacked, but you will often prefer a defensive buff on stuff outside of a Serpent. In general you want defensive buffs on things that your opponent wants to shoot at already. So things like Jetbikes and Vypers. Your opponent always has a choice; what you want to do is make their choice as hard as possible.
I didn't say that Alatoic is strictly superior to Iyanden. I said that Ulthwe is strictly superior to Iyanden.
I view Alaitoc's attribute as both an offensive and defensive buff.
Defensive is obvious, of course.
But why offensive? We all know Eldar guns typically only shoot as far as you can throw them. Alaitoc incentives the opponent to actually move closer to us.
Guardians are actually pretty amazing when they get to shoot.
Helvost wrote: Apparently vypers also received a small points reduction AND gained the biker keyword which means that they can benefit from conceal now too.
Holy crap. That also means they're eligible for Strength from Death! That's kind of a game changer for the humble Vyper.
As someone who never embraced scatbikes, I’m a bit “meh” on the Saim Hann rules. I tend not to have CC units, and have been running by bikes and vypers with Shurs. Keeping the old 1-in-3 on the bikes with the cannon, running the Vyers with 2.
So unless the relics/warlord traits/specific stratagems blow me out of the water, I think I’ll shop elsewhere for my pointy eared tactics.
I’m not going to rage quit or panic based on early leaks, but am pretty underwhelmed with the boys in red right now.
admironheart wrote: so with scatter lasers costing less now. Do we think like 12 points, 10 or 14???
Are they useful on a squadron of warwalkers or with CTM for targeting hordes?
My guess is Dire Avenges will be 14 points.
Scatterlasers 12 points
and Wave Serpents gain +10 points in cost (I hope not)
Any ideas on the 2 last psychic powers?
In 2nd they still have yet to do Eldritch storm, Executioner and BattleFate.
Seems Executioner would just be another Mind war.
So will there be a massive template S3 AP- attack? or some form of re-roll for a targeted unit.(gawd....hope no more rerolls)
Scatter lasers are not a great anti-horde weapon. They're too high strength. What you really want is S3 or S4 with more shots -- a hurricane bolter is about as good as it gets. Like, suppose that scatter lasers drop to 12 points (same as shuriken cannons). Then a War Walker with dual scatter lasers would be 85 points. It kills 11.85 points of Guard Infantry per volley, if it's just standing there and shooting at BS3+ (and this is Infantry, not even Conscripts). It would take 7 turns to make its points back. Ultimately the cost of scatter lasers is not that relevant because they're a very small part of what you're paying for the unit they're on as-is on everything except Windriders. Maybe a Windrider with a scatter laser drops to 25 points (this seems aggressive). This is now not awful anti-horde but it's still taking you 4 turns to make your points back on a very fragile unit that doesn't easily benefit from cover. Note that a shuriken cannon is 80% as good against GEQs as a scatter laser, doesn't have to worry about being a heavy weapon, and is a lot better against everything that's not a GEQ, although it of course does have shorter range.
Swooping Hawks at around 10 points apiece would be okay anti-horde (comparable units would be Sisters' Seraphim at 11 points or 2 Elysian Drop Troopers at 10 points, which compared to Hawks have less firepower but are much more durable, plus both have weapon options). Otherwise reasonably-priced Striking Scorpions would be a good choice (a comparable unit would be Assault Marines at 13 points or 16 with deep striking and 12" movement, but of course nobody uses naked Assault Marines so you need to aim lower than that).
I guess I find it pretty unlikely that the clear Eldar anti-horde units will actually get the price cuts they need to be effective, though I hope they do -- I'd love to finally be able to use Hawks. So the go-to choice will probably still be Guardians at 8 points, or maybe Dire Avengers if they drop to 10 or 11 points. It is possible that they make twin shuriken catapult Windriders cheap enough to work here, but you'd want them to be something like 20 points for this (comparable unit would be Scout Bikes at 25 apiece but with T5 and extra shotguns on top of their twin bolters).
The amount of trash that is written here is amazimg.
Considering the Ulthwe trait: A 6+ is always a 16.66% chance, as it is 1/6 equally propable results. If you wanna take into account diminishing returns though, say the save a unit already has, that gets lower but not more. It also depends on the save a unit has, the ap of the attack and special rules like 2d6 pick the highest.
The -1 to hit for the enemy on the other hand can reduce the volume of enemy shooting by 20% for 2+ to hit, 25% for 3+, 33% for 4+ and 50% for 5+. Still it modifies the individual result of a single die rolled by 16.66%.
If you wanna put propabilities in perspective you have to explain how and why not just throw numbers around.
Oh, and Jimmy: no early adopter ever killed a Land Raider with banshees in 4th. There was this thing with AV, y'know? No way you could pen that AV14 with a strength 3/5 for the exarch except some heavy cheating, also back then the Land Raider didn't even have a save to be ignored.
Cpt. Icanus wrote: The amount of trash that is written here is amazimg.
Considering the Ulthwe trait: A 6+ is always a 16.66% chance, as it is 1/6 equally propable results. If you wanna take into account diminishing returns though, say the save a unit already has, that gets lower but not more. It also depends on the save a unit has, the ap of the attack and special rules like 2d6 pick the highest.
The -1 to hit for the enemy on the other hand can reduce the volume of enemy shooting by 20% for 2+ to hit, 25% for 3+, 33% for 4+ and 50% for 5+. Still it modifies the individual result of a single die rolled by 16.66%.
If you wanna put propabilities in perspective you have to explain how and why not just throw numbers around.
Oh, and Jimmy: no early adopter ever killed a Land Raider with banshees in 4th. There was this thing with AV, y'know? No way you could pen that AV14 with a strength 3/5 for the exarch except some heavy cheating, also back then the Land Raider didn't even have a save to be ignored.
So... could you explain why you'd talk about the Ulthwe trait this way? What about it depends on the AP of the attack?
You seem to be making it far more complicated than it needs to be. It's a 20% increase in durability (or a 17% reduction in vulnerability) against everything, unless you already have a FNP type rule since it explicitly doesn't stack. If the regular model can on average take X lasgun hits before dying, then with Ulthwe it can on average take 1.2 times as many. Same for lascannons, earthshaker volleys, etc. What other way of thinking about this is at all useful or natural? Certainly you shouldn't be talking about the Ulthwe trait as having a usefulness dependent on the weapon's stats while talking about the Alatoic trait as depending only on BS.
But yes, meanwhile the Alatoic trait reduces your vulnerability to shooting past 12" by the numbers you give, although it's probably more intuitive to think about it as increasing your durability by 25%, 33%, 50%, and 100%. I'm not sure who you think you're disagreeing with here.
DarknessEternal wrote: Shadow Spectres are the best anti-horde unit. Honestly, they're probably the best anti-anything unit.
Yeah, this is pretty annoying (though granted they have to be within 8" or Guided). Part of it is that they're over-tuned in general, but the bigger part is that our supposed anti-horde units are way overpriced. Swooping Hawks would need to be 10 points to out-do Spectre flamers against GEQs, and of course the Hawks are actually specialized against GEQs while the Spectres are MEQ-killers who just happen to also be as good as Guardians against GEQs. But of course for some reason Hawks currently cost 17.
DarknessEternal wrote: Shadow Spectres are the best anti-horde unit. Honestly, they're probably the best anti-anything unit.
Only helpful if your area allows FW on a regular basis. Round it it is definitely opponent's consent only and definitely not in tournaments. :(
Cpt. Icanus wrote: Considering the Ulthwe trait: A 6+ is always a 16.66% chance, as it is 1/6 equally propable results. If you wanna take into account diminishing returns though, say the save a unit already has, that gets lower but not more. It also depends on the save a unit has, the ap of the attack and special rules like 2d6 pick the highest.
The -1 to hit for the enemy on the other hand can reduce the volume of enemy shooting by 20% for 2+ to hit, 25% for 3+, 33% for 4+ and 50% for 5+. Still it modifies the individual result of a single die rolled by 16.66%.
Both Ulthwe and Alaitoc increase durability. Ulthwe is a flat 16.67% for all units against all damage, always. True it does not stack with Fortune or Spirit Stones but that just means you don't take either of those in your army.
We don't know yet if the Alaitoc Trait applies to all units (like Ulthwe) or just Infantry (like the RG Chapter trait). If it is just infantry then it probably won't be worth much since most Eldar infantry are short ranged. Rangers, Avengers, Hawks and Reapers will get a boost but not a lot else (not if they want to shoot at least). On the other hand, if the Trait applies to all units then it is going to be very powerful indeed. 25% better against BS3+ armies and getting proportionally better against lower BS armies.
Of course it can be countered. Enemy units can try to get close or assault you. This will make Alaitoc rely on speed, repositioning and "Fire and Fade" to avoid damage. Ultimately, Alaitoc may turn out to be the most classically Eldarish of the Craftworld Traits.
What is this 4th edition again? Can you show me where in the index or rulebook that says Forge World is permission only?
Does it matter if it is in print? Round here, FW is regarded as "pay to play" and is pretty much only for friendly games. I don't of any of the local tournies that allow it.
What is this 4th edition again? Can you show me where in the index or rulebook that says Forge World is permission only?
Does it matter if it is in print? Round here, FW is regarded as "pay to play" and is pretty much only for friendly games. I don't of any of the local tournies that allow it.
What? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. All the major tournaments allow FW that I know of with the exception of things like Warhounds and Phantoms.
Doesn't matter if it's game legal if you don't have anyone who will play you if you use them. Sure the rules don't say they can't hit the table, but they also don't say that your opponents can't just tell you to screw off.
Terminators are legal, but if 18 out of 20 players in my area refuse to play against them, I can either never play, or not use terminators.
Cpt. Icanus wrote: Considering the Ulthwe trait: A 6+ is always a 16.66% chance, as it is 1/6 equally propable results. If you wanna take into account diminishing returns though, say the save a unit already has, that gets lower but not more. It also depends on the save a unit has, the ap of the attack and special rules like 2d6 pick the highest.
The -1 to hit for the enemy on the other hand can reduce the volume of enemy shooting by 20% for 2+ to hit, 25% for 3+, 33% for 4+ and 50% for 5+. Still it modifies the individual result of a single die rolled by 16.66%.
Both Ulthwe and Alaitoc increase durability. Ulthwe is a flat 16.67% for all units against all damage, always. True it does not stack with Fortune or Spirit Stones but that just means you don't take either of those in your army.
About the Ulthwe thing, it's indeed a flat 1/6 for everyone, against weapons with 1 damage. It actually gets a bit more complicated with multi-damage weapons.
For instance, when shooting a 2D weapon at 1W models, the models only survive if they pass both 6+ rolls, so it only increase durability by 1/36. But against 2W models, a model survives if it passes at least one roll, so 30.5% of the time. A lot of 2D shots against such a unit doesn't actually reduce casualties by 30.5%, because the weapon can end up reducing wounds by 0, 1, or 2, to models that can have either 1 or 2 wounds left, so it gets a bit tricky to calculate the exact improvements.
This trait is actually best when your multi-wound models are getting one shot by weapons that don't normally overkill (so mostly 2W models against 2D weapons). So if you often find yourself in that position (lots of bike vs lots of plasma for instance), it's something to consider.
DarknessEternal wrote: Shadow Spectres are the best anti-horde unit. Honestly, they're probably the best anti-anything unit.
Yeah, this is pretty annoying (though granted they have to be within 8" or Guided).
They work just fine without Guide.
Not against hordes they don't. Firing at just regular BS3+ they only expect to kill a little more than 1 Guardsman each. It'd take them 5 turns to make their points back this way, compared to 3 with Guide. That's not great. Because of their weird gun rule they benefit far more than other units from re-rolls. Guide makes them 70% more effective, compared to 33% for regular BS3+ units. Just rerolling ones buffs them by about as much as Guide buffs other units.
Mmmpi wrote: Doesn't matter if it's game legal if you don't have anyone who will play you if you use them. Sure the rules don't say they can't hit the table, but they also don't say that your opponents can't just tell you to screw off.
Terminators are legal, but if 18 out of 20 players in my area refuse to play against them, I can either never play, or not use terminators.
Sounds like a bunch of 'friendly' or 'casual' at all cost players. Gross.
So, Alatoic or Ulthwe for a Wraith army? Iyanden doesnt really support them anymore rules wise, other than the one strategem. Saim Hann doesnt really work, nor does Biel Tan.
Cpt. Icanus wrote: Considering the Ulthwe trait: A 6+ is always a 16.66% chance, as it is 1/6 equally propable results. If you wanna take into account diminishing returns though, say the save a unit already has, that gets lower but not more. It also depends on the save a unit has, the ap of the attack and special rules like 2d6 pick the highest.
The -1 to hit for the enemy on the other hand can reduce the volume of enemy shooting by 20% for 2+ to hit, 25% for 3+, 33% for 4+ and 50% for 5+. Still it modifies the individual result of a single die rolled by 16.66%.
Both Ulthwe and Alaitoc increase durability. Ulthwe is a flat 16.67% for all units against all damage, always. True it does not stack with Fortune or Spirit Stones but that just means you don't take either of those in your army.
About the Ulthwe thing, it's indeed a flat 1/6 for everyone, against weapons with 1 damage. It actually gets a bit more complicated with multi-damage weapons.
For instance, when shooting a 2D weapon at 1W models, the models only survive if they pass both 6+ rolls, so it only increase durability by 1/36. But against 2W models, a model survives if it passes at least one roll, so 30.5% of the time. A lot of 2D shots against such a unit doesn't actually reduce casualties by 30.5%, because the weapon can end up reducing wounds by 0, 1, or 2, to models that can have either 1 or 2 wounds left, so it gets a bit tricky to calculate the exact improvements.
This trait is actually best when your multi-wound models are getting one shot by weapons that don't normally overkill (so mostly 2W models against 2D weapons). So if you often find yourself in that position (lots of bike vs lots of plasma for instance), it's something to consider.
For 2-wound models getting hit by 2 damage weapons, it's a ~31.8% increase in durability (i.e. you need 1.318 shots for every 1 you needed before to kill the model). This is very similar to the impact of the Alatoic trait on BS3+.
Cpt. Icanus wrote: Considering the Ulthwe trait: A 6+ is always a 16.66% chance, as it is 1/6 equally propable results. If you wanna take into account diminishing returns though, say the save a unit already has, that gets lower but not more. It also depends on the save a unit has, the ap of the attack and special rules like 2d6 pick the highest.
The -1 to hit for the enemy on the other hand can reduce the volume of enemy shooting by 20% for 2+ to hit, 25% for 3+, 33% for 4+ and 50% for 5+. Still it modifies the individual result of a single die rolled by 16.66%.
Both Ulthwe and Alaitoc increase durability. Ulthwe is a flat 16.67% for all units against all damage, always. True it does not stack with Fortune or Spirit Stones but that just means you don't take either of those in your army.
About the Ulthwe thing, it's indeed a flat 1/6 for everyone, against weapons with 1 damage. It actually gets a bit more complicated with multi-damage weapons.
For instance, when shooting a 2D weapon at 1W models, the models only survive if they pass both 6+ rolls, so it only increase durability by 1/36. But against 2W models, a model survives if it passes at least one roll, so 30.5% of the time. A lot of 2D shots against such a unit doesn't actually reduce casualties by 30.5%, because the weapon can end up reducing wounds by 0, 1, or 2, to models that can have either 1 or 2 wounds left, so it gets a bit tricky to calculate the exact improvements.
This trait is actually best when your multi-wound models are getting one shot by weapons that don't normally overkill (so mostly 2W models against 2D weapons). So if you often find yourself in that position (lots of bike vs lots of plasma for instance), it's something to consider.
For 2-wound models getting hit by 2 damage weapons, it's a ~31.8% increase in durability (i.e. you need 1.318 shots for every 1 you needed before to kill the model). This is very similar to the impact of the Alatoic trait on BS3+.
I did the calculation just for fun, but found a 32.25% increase in durability. Well, it doesn't really matter since the ballpark is correct.
fresus wrote: About the Ulthwe thing, it's indeed a flat 1/6 for everyone, against weapons with 1 damage. It actually gets a bit more complicated with multi-damage weapons.
For instance, when shooting a 2D weapon at 1W models, the models only survive if they pass both 6+ rolls, so it only increase durability by 1/36.
If my opponent is shooting multi-wound weapons against my 1W infantry instead of against my Vehicles or Wraith units, either I am winning because he is using the wrong tool for the job or I am dying because all my tough stuff is dead. Either way I don't really see it as a problem.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crazyterran wrote: So, Alatoic or Ulthwe for a Wraith army? Iyanden doesnt really support them anymore rules wise, other than the one strategem. Saim Hann doesnt really work, nor does Biel Tan.
It depends to some extent what else is in your army but overall I would go for Ulthwe. Wraithguard have a maximum threat range of 12" which means in order to be doing their job, they need to be operating at a range where Alaitoc gives no bonuses so Ulthwe is the way to go. If you have the points for a separate detachment, an Alaitoc firebase of Reapers led by an Autarch should be quite cheap and punchy.
I have the reverse view point. If my army wants to operate within 12" range then I actually really like Alaitoc as it benefits me whilst I am closing to within that range.
Also, opponent isn't going to have everything within 12" of me even if I am within 12" of my target unit(s). Therefore even at 12" it will still benefit me against those enemy units further away.
It also encourage the enemy to close within my optimal weapon ranges to get inside the 12" range, which again benefits me.
It is especially useful if the Eldar player takes Footdar, as it's gives the benefit for typically longer as you close that gap.
Finally, against heavy weapons that suffer the -1 to hit if they move, they have the awkward dychotomy whereby if they move to be within 12" they get -1. If they stay still outside of the 12", they get -1. So they suffer either way.
That to me is good all round for me regardless of whether it's a Guardian or a Reaper.
I hope Conceal is changed to not affecting Hemlocks. Remove the "affects the psyker" part and it's all good, all the other psykers will still affect themselves since they're infantry or bikers.
The bigger news (imo) are the dramatic points drop for rangers and the fire prism buff. 60 point rangers make great objective holders and battalion fillers. The wording was interesting but it looks like they may have lost their native -1 to hit?
Two prisms with linked fire will tear some things up. The double shots and re-rolls are strong. 4 lance shots that re-roll everything, not shabby.
Alaitoc is the clear winner by leaps and bounds, I feel like there should be an exception for Flyers because -2 to hit is too strong. -3 on concealed Hemlock is busted.
Rangers dropping 8 points, hallelujah!! That kind of reduction really gives me hope for the internal balance of the new dex. Fire Prisms look far improved too!
Okay, so how good are Rangers and Fire Prisms now, really? Let's investigate.
12 point Rangers obviously still shoot much worse than Ratlings or Elysian Snipers. The Ratlings are 70% more shooty.
Of course they're far more durable than Ratlings. Assuming their cloaks still work the same way, outside of 12" Alatoic Rangers (and why would your Rangers be anything else?) take half as many hits from even BS3+, and a third as many from BS4+. Then they have 3+ saves instead of 5+ saves and T3 instead of T2. So they're about 190% more durable per point against distant bolter fire, or 90% more durable at close range.
Elysian Snipers are still more durable than the Rangers, though, since they have two wounds each, on top of being more shooty.
So Alatoic Rangers strike me as being pretty good. They're really nowhere near Elysians but are probably pretty comparable to Ratlings.
Meanwhile Fire Prisms can shoot twice. Let's compare to a Russ. A standard Leman Russ is cheaper and T8. The battle cannon is clearly better than the dispersed prism cannon. It's BS4+ with d6 shots S8 AP-2 vs BS3+ d3 shots S9 AP-4 for the focused mode. The Prism is significantly better against a Land Raider or a Russ but only a little better against a Razorback. You'll still never use the Lance mode. The Russ strikes me as generally more appealing but it's close -- a big problem for the Prism is that it still won't want to move.
That said, with 2 or more Prisms the stratagem becomes pretty appealing. Re-rolling hits and wounds means a 77% increase in output. 2 Prisms expect to kill a Russ or a Predator in one turn.
Khaine wrote: Alaitoc is the clear winner by leaps and bounds, I feel like there should be an exception for Flyers because -2 to hit is too strong. -3 on concealed Hemlock is busted.
Rangers dropping 8 points, hallelujah!! That kind of reduction really gives me hope for the internal balance of the new dex. Fire Prisms look far improved too!
Admech Dragoons are -2 to hit outside 12" as well, but admittedly aren't anywhere near as potent as on a flyer.
So take 2 Prisms, deploy them all out of LoS. Move one of them out 6-7" to target a unit. Use the Linked Fire stratagem to fire 4x at the target re-rolling hits and wounds. Then use the Fire and Fade stratagem to move the first Prism back out of LoS.
One thing to consider that we talked about in the admech thread is that not only is -2 to hit a great defence, it also means overcharged plasma will kill it's bearer on a roll of a 3 instead of a 1!
Galef wrote: So take 2 Prisms, deploy them all out of LoS. Move one of them out 6-7" to target a unit. Use the Linked Fire stratagem to fire 4x at the target re-rolling hits and wounds. Then use the Fire and Fade stratagem to move the first Prism back out of LoS.
Viable tactic?
I'm not sure that you particularly want to be in a position where you have to move one of them, and then I doubt you want to spend a CP to move it back. I mean, I'm sure this can make sense with dense terrain against an immobile gunline, but what are we talking about here? They've got 60" range and if either one can see something then both can shoot it, so just deploy them on top of ruins deep in your deployment zone and go to town, right?
As I posted a bit ago, I think this level of reduction in ranger points makes them a desirable take for the generation of command points. 60 point durable troop squad that can set up on any objective is a great value, even if their firepower is wanting. But they will serve a very useful function anyway, killing critical small units like maelific lords or commissars (which are lynchpin units for two of the top tier armies) and chipping away over a few turns at scarier units.
I could easily see taking 3 units or maybe even 6 units if I desperately wanted an even higher level of command points. Unless dire avengers drop sub 13, I think rangers will be the go-to for troops. One of the biggest things eldar needed was a cheap-ish spammable troop unit and rangers at 12 points will fit that pretty well. This is probably the most meaningful change they've made in the previews.
Yeah, Rangers dropping so much in points really helps the detachment options.
Prism changes look good, but I wouldn't be sure about discounting Lance yet - we haven't seen if profiles change. I'm hopeful that bad profiles that never have a use (Wraithknight Fists hello) will be looked at too.
-Guardians are best for either Serpent drops to rip hard targets, or backfield deterrent with a potshotting brightlance. Neither is brilliant, but both definitely have their uses.
-Rangers are cheaper backfield for "safe" objectives. If you think the enemy might get up close to them, Guardians do it better. But For taking some incidental fire and not costing points, Rangers are the better option in that case. Further, if you need to snipe Commies or the last wound on an HQ or something.
-DAs suck at backfielding. But if you want them to advance on the enemy and skirmish, they can do good work. 18" range makes them less dependent on Serpents. 4+ armor and a free 2W 4++ Exarch makes them a little more durable than Guardians. Still die fast, but if you're running a diverse Aspect Host, they take heat off of your other aspects. And add more bodies in the final phases of the game if you tend to assualt then. Also, you can get 2 5 or 6 man DA units into a Serpent, if you want a more durable Serpent drop. Or one DA unit and a FD unit.
So:
-Safe backfield: Rangers
-Threatened backfield: Guardians w/ Weapons Platform
-"cheap" Serpent drop: Guardians
-Footdar Aspect support: DAs
See, all 3 troops have a role!
(Note - anyone who reminds me that Storm Guardians are technically an option will be ignored.)
Dionysodorus wrote: I'm not sure why anyone would take 13 ppmDAs over the other choices, but otherwise sure.
The one thing DAs always get that stormies and defenders don't get is minimum unit size 5. So even at a higher ppm, it's a lower overall troop tax than guardians, and now in 8th you can throw two units into a serpent to reduce deployment drops and still have room for characters.
If DAs are more than rangers, though, then might as well take rangers. I get the feeling GW online will probably be sold out of ranger kits by morning.
Also, a couple 5-man DAs do a better mopup job for squads down to a couple guys than other troops. So FDs or Spiders drop a Tac or Guardsman squad down to 2 or 3, those 5-mans are nice.
We know they're going down to at most 15ppm, but currently at 17ppm, 10 Guardian Defenders are cheaper. Storm Guardians even cheaper.
With Dire Avengers it just really matters how much you value their extra range. Obviously Avenger Catapults aren't worth as much as a twin catapult. Are they worth a 3-shot catapult? If you value them at 50% more than a regular catapult, then a 5-man Avenger squad which costs 65 points including the dual-wielding Exarch is probably worth it over Guardians. But if you think they're only about 20% better than a regular catapult (i.e. you'd trade them for a shuriken catapult that re-rolls wounds of 1 or something like that) then you probably want to pay at most 60 for the squad. Of course this is assuming that you're choosing between them and Guardians and not them and something else entirely -- if you think Guardians aren't very good as-is then you'll want cheaper DAs.
Assuming they get a price reduction to 13 ppm, 2 x 5 DA in a Wave Serpent can compete with the 10 Guardians imo. For 50 points you get:
- 4+ save, 6"s of range, 5+ overwatch
- better ld and morale resistance from two squads
- two free 2W 4++ exarchs
- more potential for command point generation
The last point is particularly important to me. Our Troops are not amazing and getting the compulsory choices out of of the way as efficiently as possible seems ideal.
Guardians are just bad. They aren't durable, they aren't cheap and they aren't offensive. A 5 man ranger squad in cover is tougher and cheaper than a 10 man guardian squad now. While they have more firepower than the ranger squad, the rangers are likely to get out more wounds in the right spots due to their range and the ability to shoot at individual models. What will guardians do that couldn't be better accomplished by another unit? Rangers are better at holding backfield objectives and cheaper for command points. Plus they actually serve a role nothing else in the army does (this is an edition where shooting cheap command characters has value). Wraith units are much better to fit in a serpent as forward short range attack units. Guardians needed a point drop, they didn't get it.
Dire Avengers will depend on their point drop, but they will need a drastic one to be good. Even at 14 ppm they are too thin for how much offence they provide. Comparing them to something like a Marauder Plasma squad (45 points for comparable toughness, a plasma pistol and two plasma guns) should make you cry (as they would be 70 points at 14 ppm). Yes, Marauder plasma squads are one of the best units right now of their kind, but the different is so dramatic it's hard to think. I would probably not consider dire avengers to be good, solid, worth taking as a standard until they were 10 ppm. Their role as aggressive units popping out of a serpent is better done by wraithguard, objectives better done by rangers.
Also another point for rangers is their benefit from Doom. Did you doom a unit only to have just barely not enough shooting to finish it off? Well, throw two squads of ranger shooting at almost any target on the board and you're very likely to see a couple of mortal and regular wounds, enough to finish off even things like primarchs or vehicles. For the ynarri folks, they'll also be great for finishing off a unit on the verge of triggering SfD.
Fanctionwide deepstrike/infiltration stratagems are confirmed on stream just now! Nice! Webway Strike is 1-3 units (presumably infantry/bikers) in the webway for 1-3 command points, infiltration stratagem. The second one allows a vehicle to deep strike, called Cloud Strike.
Khaine wrote: Fanctionwide deepstrike stratagems are confirmed on stream just now! Nice!
To be clear, they said that the one that applies to infantry is an infiltration stratagem, which is a lot worse for shooting units than deep strike. The deep strike stratagem is for vehicles (presumably with Fly).
Khaine wrote: Fanctionwide deepstrike stratagems are confirmed on stream just now! Nice!
To be clear, they said that the one that applies to infantry is an infiltration stratagem, which is a lot worse for shooting units than deep strike. The deep strike stratagem is for vehicles (presumably with Fly).
Banshee Mask gone back to ignoring overwatch, acrobatic gives them advance and charge and get still the + 3" of charge range. This is surely the best they've ever been.
Reapers -9 points
Shining Spears -6 points
Dire Avengers -5 points
Warp Spiders gain deep strike
Swooping Hawks: -4 points. weapon changed to assault 4, still 24" range.
Scorpions: unspecified points drop
Night Spinners: unspecified points drop
Falcon: -50 points (lol)
If Windriders with catapults are really just 18 points then that's really good. They shoot almost as well as Guardians, are much faster, and are significantly more durable except against multi-damage weapons. I'm worried that the guy just didn't realize they have to pay for twin catapults, though, since what he said implies that shuriken cannons cost 10 points more than twin catapults. If twin catapults only cost 2 (for 12 point cannons as now) then lots of stuff got a lot cheaper. They said that Shining Spears dropped 6 points base, and if they also lost 8 on their twin catapults then they only cost 29 points now.
Read shame all those wraithknights will still continue to gather dust. It's the model that made me start playing eldar. But the changes are really spot on power boosts to an army that needed it.
When they say 'no rules' to ynnari, I'm going to assume that means no craftworld traits, warlord traits or stratagems. It'll probably still be worth doing a spearhead with yvraine sitting with some units of dark reapers, but otherwise it'll be a hard choice of whether you want strength from death or these new rules. Probably still worth it for Wratihguard as well.
Still a chance for Wraithlord improvements as well. I mean, sounds unlikely, but when was the last time Falcons or Howling Banshees got this big a boost? Plus they are in the starting box.
Turnip Jedi wrote: Noticed they managed to wock-comble the wording on Pulsed discharge
I can't actually see anything wrong with the datasheet entry for Pulsed Laser Discharge...I'm pretty tired though
like the Russ rule it omits 'or remains stationary', cue to RAI / RAW about 0" moves and heavy weapons
Oh, are people really saying that moving zero inches (ie. remaining stationary) is not the same as moving less than 6"?
I mean this game does have quite a few RAI / RAW conflicts, but this isn't one of them. If you don't move, then you have moved less than 6". You have moved 0". This isn't even a conflict.
DarknessEternal wrote: Shadow Spectres are the best anti-horde unit. Honestly, they're probably the best anti-anything unit.
Yeah, this is pretty annoying (though granted they have to be within 8" or Guided).
They work just fine without Guide.
Not against hordes they don't. Firing at just regular BS3+ they only expect to kill a little more than 1 Guardsman each. It'd take them 5 turns to make their points back this way, compared to 3 with Guide. That's not great. Because of their weird gun rule they benefit far more than other units from re-rolls. Guide makes them 70% more effective, compared to 33% for regular BS3+ units. Just rerolling ones buffs them by about as much as Guide buffs other units.
Snuh? They get d6 hits at S5 AP-1 when firing at Guardsmen.
DarknessEternal wrote: Shadow Spectres are the best anti-horde unit. Honestly, they're probably the best anti-anything unit.
Yeah, this is pretty annoying (though granted they have to be within 8" or Guided).
They work just fine without Guide.
Not against hordes they don't. Firing at just regular BS3+ they only expect to kill a little more than 1 Guardsman each. It'd take them 5 turns to make their points back this way, compared to 3 with Guide. That's not great. Because of their weird gun rule they benefit far more than other units from re-rolls. Guide makes them 70% more effective, compared to 33% for regular BS3+ units. Just rerolling ones buffs them by about as much as Guide buffs other units.
Snuh? They get d6 hits at S5 AP-1 when firing at Guardsmen.
Yes, I said this earlier. Sorry, I thought you were disagreeing with me when you chimed in with "They work just fine without Guide" after I said "they have to be within 8" or Guided". Instead I guess you meant "Yeah, they do fine inside 8" without Guide".
Falcons still don't seem like they have a place. Wave Serpents are still better transports and Fire Prisms are now objectively better tanks (especially if you bring two and save your CP for Linked FiRe)
5x Wraithguard with D-Scythes
Wave Serpent (3x shuriken Cannon)
5x Wraithblades with Swords
Wave Serpent (3x shuriken Cannon)
1x Hemlock Wraithfighter.
You can get to a pretty tidy 2000 points list. Which I'm very tempted by, as I've always liked Ranger and Dark Reaper models and units, but they've rarely been worth it in large numbers like this.
l0k1 wrote: I'm pretty new to eldar, but is mechdar viable with the new leaks?
It'll take some time to digest but my initial impression is that it will be viable. Most of our tanks either got discounted or buffed (Wave Serpents were good already).
Pick your favourite units, put them in 4-5 Serpents and have a couple of Falcons or Fire Prisms to back them up. 5 Dire Avengers and a tri-Shuricannon Serpent are roughly 200 points. 3 units like that will give you plenty of mobile fire power plus 3 units of ObjSec Troops for grabbing objectives late in the game. Next up a couple of units of Wraithguard (pick your favourite flavour) in Serpents to crack tough targets at roughly 350 points each (depending on loadout). That takes you to 1300 points so far.
Next you will need a couple of HQs (assuming a Battalion). You could go really cheap with a pair of Warlocks although personally I would prefer to upgrade 1 to a Farseer for some more serious psychic might. That takes us to around 1450. Now you will want a bit of fire support. 2 Fire Prisms will set you back 340 points and will provide some long-ranged punch. That leaves you just over 200 points for a Hemlock which is one of the best aircraft in the game.
Almost any of the craftworld Traits would work with this army. Alaitoc is probably the best as -1 to hit at long range is great protection on a highly mobile army. That Hemlock will be -2 to hit (-3 if you cast Conceal) so will be almost unhittable). Ulthwe is not bad either as it gives you a flat 6+++ against every point of damage you suffer. Iyanden will keep you tanks shooting for longer (although it is pretty weak otherwise). Even Saim Hann would not be bad with all those shurican weapons on the tanks and your Avengers would get +1Ld to boot.
l0k1 wrote: I'm pretty new to eldar, but is mechdar viable with the new leaks?
It'll take some time to digest but my initial impression is that it will be viable. Most of our tanks either got discounted or buffed (Wave Serpents were good already).
Pick your favourite units, put them in 4-5 Serpents and have a couple of Falcons or Fire Prisms to back them up. 5 Dire Avengers and a tri-Shuricannon Serpent are roughly 200 points. 3 units like that will give you plenty of mobile fire power plus 3 units of ObjSec Troops for grabbing objectives late in the game. Next up a couple of units of Wraithguard (pick your favourite flavour) in Serpents to crack tough targets at roughly 350 points each (depending on loadout). That takes you to 1300 points so far.
Next you will need a couple of HQs (assuming a Battalion). You could go really cheap with a pair of Warlocks although personally I would prefer to upgrade 1 to a Farseer for some more serious psychic might. That takes us to around 1450. Now you will want a bit of fire support. 2 Fire Prisms will set you back 340 points and will provide some long-ranged punch. That leaves you just over 200 points for a Hemlock which is one of the best aircraft in the game.
Almost any of the craftworld Traits would work with this army. Alaitoc is probably the best as -1 to hit at long range is great protection on a highly mobile army. That Hemlock will be -2 to hit (-3 if you cast Conceal) so will be almost unhittable). Ulthwe is not bad either as it gives you a flat 6+++ against every point of damage you suffer. Iyanden will keep you tanks shooting for longer (although it is pretty weak otherwise). Even Saim Hann would not be bad with all those shurican weapons on the tanks and your Avengers would get +1Ld to boot.
This spell is hella nuts with the new Howling Banshees - 8 + d6 + 8 + d6 + 2d6 + 3 = 43" potential threat range, 33" on average. Given they ignore overwatch, throwing a unit of 10 across the battlefield to engage as many shooting units as possible could be an actual viable strategy against some armies (banshees viable? the shock, the horror )
I wouldn't get too excited about a first turn charge, even without overwatch. Several armies have it and only the absolute best units can do much with it. And, while much improved, banshees are not anything like khorne berserkers or even genestealers. You'll run into some bubblewrap, kill a bit of it, then get shot off the board next turn. Don't get me wrong, it might have some small use, but this won't be the era of the howling banshee.
This spell is hella nuts with the new Howling Banshees - 8 + d6 + 8 + d6 + 2d6 + 3 = 43" potential threat range, 33" on average. Given they ignore overwatch, throwing a unit of 10 across the battlefield to engage as many shooting units as possible could be an actual viable strategy against some armies (banshees viable? the shock, the horror )
They still need Doom in order not to completely suck vs. anything T4 or higher.
drakerocket wrote: I wouldn't get too excited about a first turn charge, even without overwatch. Several armies have it and only the absolute best units can do much with it. And, while much improved, banshees are not anything like khorne berserkers or even genestealers. You'll run into some bubblewrap, kill a bit of it, then get shot off the board next turn. Don't get me wrong, it might have some small use, but this won't be the era of the howling banshee.
Good points all. Still, if they can function at all its a victory in my eyes, when was the last time Banshees could successfully cross the table, 4th edition?
Actually, I was thinking more of this:
Wraithblades + Deep strike Stratagem + Quicken.
Also, Banshee Mask is now auto-include for an Autarch Skyrunner. Have him charge first and tie up a units overwatch, then charge in any other unit you want.
Quick thought...I don't have my forgeworld book with me but does it still say Wraithseers can't be your warlord? Because if it doesn't, that warlord trait that lets you snipe characters could be pretty solid on the wraithseer. I know I wouldn't mind shooting at an enemy character with a D Cannon....
Galef wrote: Actually, I was thinking more of this:
Wraithblades + Deep strike Stratagem + Quicken.
Also, Banshee Mask is now auto-include for an Autarch Skyrunner. Have him charge first and tie up a units overwatch, then charge in any other unit you want.
-
Is the stratagem actually deep strike, or is it infiltrate? Theres a big difference... Can you pick which turn you bring the unit onto the table, or do you set them up at the start of turn one, and so are vulnerable to getting shot if the opponent takes first turn?
Also, if it is infiltrate, you'd have to spend 2CP on it - One for the Blades, and one for a Warlock to be in range to quicken them. And all the opponent would have to do is spend turn 1 murdering the blades at short range, or moving their units to kill the warlock.
its more to do with GW's slapdash approach to rules templating, of course "moving" 0 is moving less than half, but by flat out stating stationery leaves no wiggle room for gamers who have mistaken game rules for a branch of philosophy
drakerocket wrote: Quick thought...I don't have my forgeworld book with me but does it still say Wraithseers can't be your warlord? Because if it doesn't, that warlord trait that lets you snipe characters could be pretty solid on the wraithseer. I know I wouldn't mind shooting at an enemy character with a D Cannon....
It doesn't say the Wraithseer can't be your Warlord any more. Guess the problem is you'd then have a warlord with more than 9 wounds.
This spell is hella nuts with the new Howling Banshees - 8 + d6 + 8 + d6 + 2d6 + 3 = 43" potential threat range, 33" on average. Given they ignore overwatch, throwing a unit of 10 across the battlefield to engage as many shooting units as possible could be an actual viable strategy against some armies (banshees viable? the shock, the horror )
Yeah, they can die real far from where they started. All for the low, low cost of one jillion points per model. What a steal.
drakerocket wrote: Quick thought...I don't have my forgeworld book with me but does it still say Wraithseers can't be your warlord? Because if it doesn't, that warlord trait that lets you snipe characters could be pretty solid on the wraithseer. I know I wouldn't mind shooting at an enemy character with a D Cannon....
It doesn't say the Wraithseer can't be your Warlord any more. Guess the problem is you'd then have a warlord with more than 9 wounds.
I doubt he would be suuuuper viable, but it's not like a 3+/5++ T8 (eventually, even if not right this moment), with -2 to be hit (one from your craftworld trait, one from your spiritseer buddy using conceal) 12 wounds with fnp (from his own power) would be very easy to explode. A few lucky shots from his 3+ rerolling 1s from his spiritseer buddy d-cannon is going to kill almost any character out there and will dent even the ubiquitous girlyman in ways no other sniper in the game can manage. You're averaging out about 2 hits at least, so 7 wounds at ap4...I mean, goodbye most psychers in the game, SM captains and a whole host of other commanders. And, in this edition, everyone takes commanders. Your new batch of 3-6 rangers can surely finish the job and, if not, there is surely next turn, unless your opponent is throwing every heavy weapon in their army against this thing...which is pretty good for you too.
This spell is hella nuts with the new Howling Banshees - 8 + d6 + 8 + d6 + 2d6 + 3 = 43" potential threat range, 33" on average. Given they ignore overwatch, throwing a unit of 10 across the battlefield to engage as many shooting units as possible could be an actual viable strategy against some armies (banshees viable? the shock, the horror )
Yeah, they can die real far from where they started. All for the low, low cost of one jillion points per model. What a steal.
Ever the positivist eh? They're not that expensive, and besides, maybe they got a points drop too. In a non-tournament setting where people aren't bubble wrapping their 10 vehicles with 200 conscripts they'll do fine. They haven't been able to function even in a casual environment for years, let me live~
drakerocket wrote: Quick thought...I don't have my forgeworld book with me but does it still say Wraithseers can't be your warlord? Because if it doesn't, that warlord trait that lets you snipe characters could be pretty solid on the wraithseer. I know I wouldn't mind shooting at an enemy character with a D Cannon....
It doesn't say the Wraithseer can't be your Warlord any more. Guess the problem is you'd then have a warlord with more than 9 wounds.
I doubt he would be suuuuper viable, but it's not like a 3+/5++ T8 (eventually, even if not right this moment), with -2 to be hit (one from your craftworld trait, one from your spiritseer buddy using conceal) 12 wounds with fnp (from his own power) would be very easy to explode. A few lucky shots from his 3+ rerolling 1s from his spiritseer buddy d-cannon is going to kill almost any character out there and will dent even the ubiquitous girlyman in ways no other sniper in the game can manage. You're averaging out about 2 hits at least, so 7 wounds at ap4...I mean, goodbye most psychers in the game, SM captains and a whole host of other commanders. And, in this edition, everyone takes commanders. Your new batch of 3-6 rangers can surely finish the job and, if not, there is surely next turn, unless your opponent is throwing every heavy weapon in their army against this thing...which is pretty good for you too.
He can't be affected by his own power, he hits on 3+ (4+ if walks due heavy weapon) and his Spiritseer buddy only grant re-roll of 1 if the character it's already within 6" of the Spiritseer, wich means you can get close enough to that character to not need to snipe it properly.
Fair points. I always forget how silly the spiritseer buff is. But the major thrust remains the same. It's not going to be a top level ability, but it is probably enough to have a bit of fun with. Certainly is a good use of that warlord trait and a better use of the wraithseer than most things >.>
Automatically Appended Next Post: War walkers are looking much more appealing now. A double star cannon War Walker is now 80 points. It's got comparable dakka to 3 dark reapers, though not as flexible, (4 shots at S6 AP3 3 wounds vs the option of either 6 shots at S5 AP2 2 Wounds or 3 shots at S8 AP2 3 Wounds...still I'd say the two are close), with twice the wounds and twice the toughness, much better movement and deployment shenanigans. Sure, it's vulnerable to mult-wound stuff, but at 80 points with a 5+ invuln (and probably -1 to being hit), you'd have to point something like 10~ las cannons at it to assure its destruction. I think that's a solid sidegrade to dark reapers, and dark reapers have been standouts for us. Plus there isn't any downside to mixing and matching the two in your heavy slot.
drakerocket wrote: Fair points. I always forget how silly the spiritseer buff is. But the major thrust remains the same. It's not going to be a top level ability, but it is probably enough to have a bit of fun with. Certainly is a good use of that warlord trait and a better use of the wraithseer than most things >.>
Automatically Appended Next Post: War walkers are looking much more appealing now. A double star cannon War Walker is now 80 points. It's got comparable dakka to 3 dark reapers, though not as flexible, (4 shots at S6 AP3 3 wounds vs the option of either 6 shots at S5 AP2 2 Wounds or 3 shots at S8 AP2 3 Wounds...still I'd say the two are close), with twice the wounds and twice the toughness, much better movement and deployment shenanigans. Sure, it's vulnerable to mult-wound stuff, but at 80 points with a 5+ invuln (and probably -1 to being hit), you'd have to point something like 10~ las cannons at it to assure its destruction. I think that's a solid sidegrade to dark reapers, and dark reapers have been standouts for us. Plus there isn't any downside to mixing and matching the two in your heavy slot.
Yes Im looking forward to seeing more starcannons as well.
You might be onto something there. I think a lot of the effectiveness of Dark Reapers has come from strength from death (from what I've seen of them) Otherwise they tend to get focused and die before earning their points back. But even if you lose that extra shooting your War Walker is staying alive for much longer most of the time, and for a similar amount of points will do just as well without having to go Ynnari.
Oh, are people really saying that moving zero inches (ie. remaining stationary) is not the same as moving less than 6"?
I mean this game does have quite a few RAI / RAW conflicts, but this isn't one of them. If you don't move, then you have moved less than 6". You have moved 0". This isn't even a conflict.
Here's the problem with your argument: If moving 0" counts as moving less than 6", then you're saying a vehicles heavy weapons will ALWAYS have -1 to hit, as they're always "moved". You can't argue 0" as moving for the purposes of the x2 shots rule, but not for the -1 heavy weapon modifier. But I'm not here to discuss this; we should discuss it in the "YMDC" forum. That said, it's been discussed there ad naseum, and the short version is: "wait for the FAQ".
As far as all the Eldar changes go...
Altioc looking like the real winner here - every army has had a -1 to hit modifier for all their units, or at least a large portion of them; I love seeing all the saltiness of the Imperial players having their BS3/4+ reduced to 5/6's to hit on a number of things.
Welcome to the "can't hit gak" club, Orks have been here since the beginning of the edition thanks to opposing fliers. I like that -X to hits are actually relevant, instead of just being a "oh, ok, a few less hits". Perhaps people will need to figure out some new answers, or god forbid, we get a little bit more tactical gameplay during the match.
Eldar are looking great, I'm glad for them. Fire Prism's Link Fire looks like a lot of fun, and thematic too; plus, all the massive points drops/changes here and there give me hope that GW is willing to do drastic changes to units, instead of just a -1/-2 here and there - some units really need massive price adjustments.
I think if the leaked info is true then gw has got most of the price changes pretty spot on.
It is pretty scary that falcons get a 50 point price drop and still you probably take a wave serpent
I dig the fire prism changes too. Might even make them worth playing. Maybe...
Okay, so we know a whole lot now. Who are the winners and losers? Obviously stuff could change as we find out more but we have ballparks for most point costs and a couple sources on changed rules. I want to say up front that all-in-all the changes to unit costs seem pretty great; many of my "losers" are things that got buffed but not enough, and lots of them still seem more-or-less playable. So, some thoughts I had while I was trying to work out what I want to use now:
Losers:
Phoenix Lords. These guys seem to have gotten point cuts of ~15 but no other real changes. They seem pretty bad still compared to just taking more of their Aspect, and their buffs remain mostly insignificant except for Asurmen's.
Warlocks. Absent very significant changes you're almost always going to take a Spiritseer instead.
Dire Avengers and Guardians. Both are basically at the level Guardians were at before. More-or-less playable but nothing worth getting excited about. And the main thing keeping Guardians going in the index is that they were one of the few units that wasn't just terrible. Now you've got other options. If Webway Assault allows for deep-striking rather than infiltration then big Guardian blobs might be exciting.
Elite Aspects. Striking Scorpions still seem way too expensive for 2 S4 attacks each in CC and maybe 1 mortal wound across the whole unit. Banshees are super-fast but they remain fragile and without great offense. Fire Dragons are just more expensive Scions that don't deep strike. Which is still playable, but you probably prefer to get your anti-tank elsewhere now that lots of other things are even better.
Warp Spiders. Not nearly cheap enough yet. Their gun is just not that much better than a shuriken catapult.
Falcons and Night Spinners. These got cuts (a large one in the case of the Falcon) but still why would you take these over Serpents or Prisms?
Wraithknight. poo emoji
Winners:
Eldrad. Now a good deal for his extra cast, deny, and test bonus.
Spiritseers. Really solid cheap HQ with access to some great powers.
Rangers. An easy way to fill Troops slots that you don't regret in the morning.
Shadow Spectres. Alatoic and lots of nice new buff abilities.
Swooping Hawks. They're a lot cheaper and can stay 24" away at all times, and will basically always be in cover. Excellent for going out and grabbing objectives while still contributing something.
Vypers and maybe War Walkers. A Vyper with two shuriken cannons is now 70 points. This is only a little more expensive than 2 Windriders with cannons. But the Vyper has 6 wounds total to their 4, higher toughness, and a better save. Also they're bikes now too so benefit from all the same psychic powers Windriders would.
Hemlocks. Unstoppable gods of death.
Crimson Hunters. Obviously overshadowed by the Hemlock, but with their price cut and Alatoic they're still a lot better than a Ravager. The Exarch even seems okay -- an Exarch with 2 starcannons is now 165 points, less than a Razorwing Jetfighter.
Dark Reapers. Maybe not the best in Craftworld but Ynnari Dark Reapers were already great and just got 25% less expensive.
Fire Prism. Now a reasonable main battle tank when taken in multiples, due to the stratagem.
Things I can't really place:
Wraithguard, blades, and lords. These mostly just seem fine. They got a little bit of love but not much. I haven't used them much so can't really judge. Wraithlords in particular seem to benefit a lot from certain other rules that will help them get close so that they can bring their CC ability to bear (which now matches a Dreadnought).
Autarchs. I can imagine sniper Autarchs with the right relic being incredibly good, especially in tough matchups like vs Malefic Lords or Commissars. But maybe not.
Windriders. A shuriken cannon Windrider only seems to have gotten a little bit cheaper -- they're apparently 28 now instead of 32. That's not much and they were pretty bad before. Scatter laser bikes are the same 28. I'm not sure I actually prefer a scatter laser to a shuriken cannon, and definitely not outside of Saim-Hann. Plus I can get a War Walker with dual scatter lasers for 70 points. But the reason I can't place Windriders is that I don't think we really know what twin catapults cost now. The WarhammerTV stream said 0, but it's easy to see how someone could just forget that twin catapults cost anything. 18 point catapult Windriders would be really, really good. Even at 20 they're probably pretty strong.
Shining Spears. Same problem. We know they got a 6 point reduction, and they were already borderline playable so are probably useful now, especially with Alatoic or Ulthwe and with access to new buff powers like Protect (which makes them 2+/3++). But they could still be anywhere from 27 to 37 points depending on twin catapults. 35 would certainly make me interested in trying them. 27 would bring Jetbike armies back in a big way.
Ah, Swooping Hawks can use their grenade packs on an enemy unit within 12" when the arrive from deep strike now as well. Now if only they had nice plastic models...
I'm curious to what the Saim-Hann relic is, haven't seen it mentioned anywhere. Anyone have any idea?
Crusaderobr wrote: Scorpions can deepstrike! Scorpions can deepstrike! That makes them much more viable, they no longer need a serpent!
I havent been this excited about an Eldar codex since 5th.
STARCANNONS ARE BACK AND VIABLE FINALLY. WOOT!
Scorpions have been able to infiltrate or deploy close to the enemy for a long time and they would never have been good in serpents as they could never disembark and charge.
But yes this is an exciting codex and you can be excited about everything else
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Redemption wrote: Ah, Swooping Hawks can use their grenade packs on an enemy unit within 12" when the arrive from deep strike now as well. Now if only they had nice plastic models...
I'm curious to what the Saim-Hann relic is, haven't seen it mentioned anywhere. Anyone have any idea?
There are some pretty nice "free" Ld buffs/debuffs here too, which might make Mind War more useful than it appears.
Some quick numbers for expected wounds from Mind War for a given Ld gap:
-1: 0.56
0: 0.97
+1: 1.56
+2: 2.28
+3: 3.11
+4: 4.03
and then as the Ld gap gets bigger, additional points are worth about 1 mortal wound each.
So you probably only want to bring Mind War if you expect to be at +2 Ld relative to your target. Compare to the Guard power Psychic Maelstrom which can target any unit and which averages 1.77 wounds regardless of Ld. Also remember that you still have to pass the psychic test and that Smite averages about 1.8 mortal wounds even accounting for the test.
So, first off, forget about Horrify. It has terrible synergy with Mind War. The absolute best case scenario here is that you spend a Runes of Battle cast to add 1 mortal wound to the Mind War result, but of course the Mind War cast is not guaranteed to be successful at the time you use Horrify and increasing the Ld gap doesn't translate into an improvement of the average result by 1 until the gap gets very big.
Embolden looks a lot better. Mind War doesn't care whether you're buffing your own Ld or debuffing the enemy's, and Embolden increases Ld by 2, so it's already twice as good as Horrify. And at least in the index it's an aura power, so you can even get use out of it for another nearby unit. If you can do this, it's probably worth it, but you still wouldn't want to cast Embolden only to improve Mind War.
But there are two great sources of Ld modifiers that you basically don't pay anything for.
Hemlocks' aura is now -2 Ld. And Swooping Hawk Exarchs give +1 Ld to anything within 3" of their unit. And these look like really solid units that you're otherwise happy to bring. So you should basically always be casting Mind War at +3 without having to go out of your way to get the buffs. That's an average of 3.11 mortal wounds against a Ld 9 target. It's an average of 4 against a Ld 8 target like Commissars or Malefic Lords. If you pass the psychic test, you are about 72% likely to kill a Commissar.
Crusaderobr wrote: Scorpions can deepstrike! Scorpions can deepstrike! That makes them much more viable, they no longer need a serpent!
I havent been this excited about an Eldar codex since 5th.
STARCANNONS ARE BACK AND VIABLE FINALLY. WOOT!
Scorpions have been able to infiltrate or deploy close to the enemy for a long time and they would never have been good in serpents as they could never disembark and charge.
But yes this is an exciting codex and you can be excited about everything else
Infiltrate, yes. set up over 9" away is new for 8th edition. Also says right in the main rulebook they can disembark out of a transport that has not moved, then they can move shoot and charge as normal. So first turn position tank close to flank/ enemy squads you want to attack, second turn they get out and attack, serpent works with scorpions just fine.
But remember the biggest difference between "infiltrate" and "deep strike" is the infiltrating still relies on getting first turn. If you don't, you're right next tot he enemy with your spirit stones hanging out. The deep strike equivalents are much better as you get to drop in and immediately do something. I'll be looking to do this with bikes quite a bit.
Maybe take a Saim-Hann outrider with Shining Spears, drop them in, shoot unit A with their catapults and lances, charge unit B with a re-roll.
So with alaitoc now thr forgeworld fliers get a lot more viable.
Phoenix were already good, with another -1 to hit they become even more viable.
Nightwings become more viable compared to wave serpents.
Twin bright lance and twin cannons with -2 to hit and 5+ invul make them difficult to deal with for 145 points.
And the vampires. With a -2 to hit, 4+ invul (moving between 45 and 50) and a 6+ spirit stone with 32 wounds will be tough to take down.
Lots of good stuff in this codex and it's making me want to bust out my old Eldar from when I was 10. Tempting indeed.
Webway strike is confirmed deepstrike which makes for a fun combo with Biel-Tan guardians. Take a blob of 20, deepstrike, use the Black Guardian stratagem for +1 to hit and then unleash shuriken death on an infantry unit of your choice. For bonus points get a Farseer to doom the target unit. You're now looking at an average of 38.888 hits and 30 wounds against T4, 7.5 of which are at AP -3.
Fire prisms also look incredible if you use their stratagem. Being able to sit one or two of them outside of LOS is a really nice ability to have.
Oh, are people really saying that moving zero inches (ie. remaining stationary) is not the same as moving less than 6"?
I mean this game does have quite a few RAI / RAW conflicts, but this isn't one of them. If you don't move, then you have moved less than 6". You have moved 0". This isn't even a conflict.
Here's the problem with your argument: If moving 0" counts as moving less than 6", then you're saying a vehicles heavy weapons will ALWAYS have -1 to hit, as they're always "moved". You can't argue 0" as moving for the purposes of the x2 shots rule, but not for the -1 heavy weapon modifier. But I'm not here to discuss this; we should discuss it in the "YMDC" forum. That said, it's been discussed there ad naseum, and the short version is: "wait for the FAQ".
As far as all the Eldar changes go...
Altioc looking like the real winner here - every army has had a -1 to hit modifier for all their units, or at least a large portion of them; I love seeing all the saltiness of the Imperial players having their BS3/4+ reduced to 5/6's to hit on a number of things.
Welcome to the "can't hit gak" club, Orks have been here since the beginning of the edition thanks to opposing fliers. I like that -X to hits are actually relevant, instead of just being a "oh, ok, a few less hits". Perhaps people will need to figure out some new answers, or god forbid, we get a little bit more tactical gameplay during the match.
Eldar are looking great, I'm glad for them. Fire Prism's Link Fire looks like a lot of fun, and thematic too; plus, all the massive points drops/changes here and there give me hope that GW is willing to do drastic changes to units, instead of just a -1/-2 here and there - some units really need massive price adjustments.
If I don't move, then I have moved less than 6". This isn't rocket science. I've heard a lot of RAI/RAW discussions, but if someone I played against tried this on with me, he would quickly be ejected from the building. No-one who tries to pull something as stupid as this would get any games from anyone I know. It is ridiculous.
If a body is at a state of rest, then it has -by definition- moved less than 6". Because 0 is less than 6. Saying "Oh, but it didn't move, so it hasn't "moved" haha -snort- har har -gollum-". The operative term there is "less than". Is 0 less than 6? Yes.
I wish I was surprised that there is people on Dakka trying to use this to get an advantage in games. What I am surprised by is that anyone will actually play against them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
saint_red wrote: Lots of good stuff in this codex and it's making me want to bust out my old Eldar from when I was 10. Tempting indeed.
Webway strike is confirmed deepstrike which makes for a fun combo with Biel-Tan guardians. Take a blob of 20, deepstrike, use the Black Guardian stratagem for +1 to hit and then unleash shuriken death on an infantry unit of your choice. For bonus points get a Farseer to doom the target unit. You're now looking at an average of 38.888 hits and 30 wounds against T4, 7.5 of which are at AP -3.
Fire prisms also look incredible if you use their stratagem. Being able to sit one or two of them outside of LOS is a really nice ability to have.
Where has webway been confirmed deep strike? I think one of those videos mentioned it, but he didn't actually read out the rule he just kinda said "Webway assault means you can deep strike some infantry or bikes, not bad", which can be misleading because a lot of people will just default to saying "deep strike" for any deployment ability that lets you place models anywhere, especially when informally going through a bunch of rules like he is.
The important distinction is whether the stratagem lets you deploy your models from reserves during ANY turn you choose, or whether they have to be set up on the table before the first turn starts.
I expected it to be before first turn, as that is what the ravenguard/alpha legion stratagem is. If it is actually a true deepstrike, then that is -awesome-.
At this point it seems clear that Ynnari can benefit from stratagems, but Ynnari detachments are not Craftworld detachments, and of course you can't have a Craftworld warlord if you're doing anything with Ynnari (and so you also don't get a free relic).
So what Ynnari get out of this codex is much cheaper everything and then the ability to use stratagems which you've unlocked with another detachment. Also note that Ynnari units can ride in non-Ynnari transports, so you could bring a Craftworld detachment with a bunch of extra Wave Serpents (which benefit from Attributes) which you load up with units from your Ynnari detachment.
Probably the key stratagem for Ynnari is Fire and Fade, to better position close-range units after they shoot so that they can get more out of a later Soulburst. But Lightning Fast Reactions is also a big deal, since it's another -1 to hit for your big Reaper or Spectre blob.
Where has webway been confirmed deep strike? I think one of those videos mentioned it, but he didn't actually read out the rule he just kinda said "Webway assault means you can deep strike some infantry or bikes, not bad", which can be misleading because a lot of people will just default to saying "deep strike" for any deployment ability that lets you place models anywhere, especially when informally going through a bunch of rules like he is.
The important distinction is whether the stratagem lets you deploy your models from reserves during ANY turn you choose, or whether they have to be set up on the table before the first turn starts.
I expected it to be before first turn, as that is what the ravenguard/alpha legion stratagem is. If it is actually a true deepstrike, then that is -awesome-.
The miniwargaming review reads all of the stratagems directly out of the book, discussing each. It seems very clear now that both webway and cloud strike are regular deep strike stratagems (see my post here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/840/741868.page#9659724). The restriction on webway strike is that you can only use it once and it's 1 CP for 1 infantry/bike and 3 CP for 2. But it still seems to me to be absolutely worth bringing a big squad of Guardians, or maybe even two.
Dionysodorus wrote: At this point it seems clear that Ynnari can benefit from stratagems, but Ynnari detachments are not Craftworld detachments, and of course you can't have a Craftworld warlord if you're doing anything with Ynnari (and so you also don't get a free relic).
So what Ynnari get out of this codex is much cheaper everything and then the ability to use stratagems which you've unlocked with another detachment. Also note that Ynnari units can ride in non-Ynnari transports, so you could bring a Craftworld detachment with a bunch of extra Wave Serpents (which benefit from Attributes) which you load up with units from your Ynnari detachment.
Probably the key stratagem for Ynnari is Fire and Fade, to better position close-range units after they shoot so that they can get more out of a later Soulburst. But Lightning Fast Reactions is also a big deal, since it's another -1 to hit for your big Reaper or Spectre blob.
Where has webway been confirmed deep strike? I think one of those videos mentioned it, but he didn't actually read out the rule he just kinda said "Webway assault means you can deep strike some infantry or bikes, not bad", which can be misleading because a lot of people will just default to saying "deep strike" for any deployment ability that lets you place models anywhere, especially when informally going through a bunch of rules like he is.
The important distinction is whether the stratagem lets you deploy your models from reserves during ANY turn you choose, or whether they have to be set up on the table before the first turn starts.
I expected it to be before first turn, as that is what the ravenguard/alpha legion stratagem is. If it is actually a true deepstrike, then that is -awesome-.
The miniwargaming review reads all of the stratagems directly out of the book, discussing each. It seems very clear now that both webway and cloud strike are regular deep strike stratagems (see my post here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/840/741868.page#9659724). The restriction on webway strike is that you can only use it once and it's 1 CP for 1 infantry/bike and 3 CP for 2. But it still seems to me to be absolutely worth bringing a big squad of Guardians, or maybe even two.
Ahh, thats really good then! Immediatly opens up a lot of ideas... Though I did think originally it was 1-3CP because you could choose 1-3 units. If its either one unit or two... tricky. Will depend on how many CP I can squeeze into a list.
Edit: But yes i was thinking of DSing 20 Guardians, since they can get a 4++ now as well and a 7" move after they shoot, they could be a really strong objective/shock unit.
Crusaderobr wrote: Scorpions can deepstrike! Scorpions can deepstrike! That makes them much more viable, they no longer need a serpent!
I havent been this excited about an Eldar codex since 5th.
STARCANNONS ARE BACK AND VIABLE FINALLY. WOOT!
Scorpions have been able to infiltrate or deploy close to the enemy for a long time and they would never have been good in serpents as they could never disembark and charge.
But yes this is an exciting codex and you can be excited about everything else
Infiltrate, yes. set up over 9" away is new for 8th edition. Also says right in the main rulebook they can disembark out of a transport that has not moved, then they can move shoot and charge as normal. So first turn position tank close to flank/ enemy squads you want to attack, second turn they get out and attack, serpent works with scorpions just fine.
Infiltrate was 18" in sight or 12" out of Los... Also past tense indicates I was talking about past editions. Reading comprehension...
Putting them in a Serpent never has and never will be a good idea especially now when they can come in turn 1 to 3 anywhere 9" away. There are a load of units to put in a Serpent before you would even consider this
Crusaderobr wrote: Scorpions can deepstrike! Scorpions can deepstrike! That makes them much more viable, they no longer need a serpent!
I havent been this excited about an Eldar codex since 5th.
STARCANNONS ARE BACK AND VIABLE FINALLY. WOOT!
Scorpions have been able to infiltrate or deploy close to the enemy for a long time and they would never have been good in serpents as they could never disembark and charge.
But yes this is an exciting codex and you can be excited about everything else
Infiltrate, yes. set up over 9" away is new for 8th edition. Also says right in the main rulebook they can disembark out of a transport that has not moved, then they can move shoot and charge as normal. So first turn position tank close to flank/ enemy squads you want to attack, second turn they get out and attack, serpent works with scorpions just fine.
Infiltrate was 18" in sight or 12" out of Los... Also past tense indicates I was talking about past editions. Reading comprehension...
Putting them in a Serpent never has and never will be a good idea especially now when they can come in turn 1 to 3 anywhere 9" away. There are a load of units to put in a Serpent before you would even consider this
I understood you were talking about past editions. Im telling you that Serpent with Scorpions in it was and still is a viable tactic, I even explained how to do it in my previous post. Add a farseer with fortune and doom and they are an excellent unit to come out of a serpent. You can disagree if you want and write it off, but I used the tactic back in 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition with great success.
I have noticed that another of the new pre-orders is for a "Seer Council" jetbikes set... which seems odd, as warlocks didn't seem to get any changes in the codex, so I am not sure how GW things anyone would want to buy any.
Unless Warlocks on Jetbikes got a reduction? I know Farseer Jetbikes dropped by 29 points... maybe warlocks got a similar drop, and noone mentioned it for some reason.
Niiru wrote: I have noticed that another of the new pre-orders is for a "Seer Council" jetbikes set... which seems odd, as warlocks didn't seem to get any changes in the codex, so I am not sure how GW things anyone would want to buy any.
Unless Warlocks on Jetbikes got a reduction? I know Farseer Jetbikes dropped by 29 points... maybe warlocks got a similar drop, and noone mentioned it for some reason.
If the reviews are correct, at the very least twin catapults went down to 5 points. And seeing as one reported the singing spear going down to 4 points, I'm guessing witchblades become free now. So normal Warlocks would then be 35 and Warlock Skyrunners 75 and maybe even lower. We'll have to see.
Crusaderobr wrote: Scorpions can deepstrike! Scorpions can deepstrike! That makes them much more viable, they no longer need a serpent!
I havent been this excited about an Eldar codex since 5th.
STARCANNONS ARE BACK AND VIABLE FINALLY. WOOT!
Scorpions have been able to infiltrate or deploy close to the enemy for a long time and they would never have been good in serpents as they could never disembark and charge.
But yes this is an exciting codex and you can be excited about everything else
Infiltrate, yes. set up over 9" away is new for 8th edition. Also says right in the main rulebook they can disembark out of a transport that has not moved, then they can move shoot and charge as normal. So first turn position tank close to flank/ enemy squads you want to attack, second turn they get out and attack, serpent works with scorpions just fine.
Infiltrate was 18" in sight or 12" out of Los... Also past tense indicates I was talking about past editions. Reading comprehension...
Putting them in a Serpent never has and never will be a good idea especially now when they can come in turn 1 to 3 anywhere 9" away. There are a load of units to put in a Serpent before you would even consider this
[spoiler]
I understood you were talking about past editions. Im telling you that Serpent with Scorpions in it was and still is a viable tactic, I even explained how to do it in my previous post. Add a farseer with fortune and doom and they are an excellent unit to come out of a serpent. You can disagree if you want and write it off, but I used the tactic back in 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition with great success.
But their current rule to set up outside 9" is better than a serpent as 1) you dont need to pay for a serpent and 2) a transport is there to stop them getting damaged, they can't get damaged if they aren't on the table in any form
Any reason there is to have a Serpent you are better off Infiltrating them. Maybe in the instance where you want to have a more reliable charge, but if you move your Serpent into place your opponent has a turn to move away from them or fire on the Serpent before you can get out. Sure it may be viable but it may be that it is less point efficient if you take into account a model pays for all the rules it has available to it, not making use of the rule is less point efficient.
Yes, you'd be using a Serpent for a more reliable charge. Deep-striking the Scorpions is exposing yourself to a pretty large chance that they fail to do anything, and then they die easier than tactical Marines. It's much easier to get them into combat with a Serpent. Sure, your opponent could move away as fast as possible but I will happily leave a unit of Scorpions inside a Serpent all game if it means that my opponent is continually moving so that he's about 20" away from me at the end of his movement phase -- Scorpions' average charge can reach something 18" away from your Serpent.
I mean, I doubt they're worth it right now either way, but I tend to think that they're better in a Serpent than out of one as-is.
sennacherib wrote: Was hoping to see a little more balance.
Likely going to have to turn down eldar games.
I assume you're also turning down Chaos games then, as well as Space Marine, Imperial Guard, and any Imperial Soup games. I guess you can still play against Orks though, they're still pretty terrible.
Oh I see you actually play -as- Chaos... Death Guard no less. You'd better start turning down any game you're involved in. Wow, that's going to get real meta real fast.
sennacherib wrote: Was hoping to see a little more balance.
Likely going to have to turn down eldar games.
I assume you're also turning down Chaos games then, as well as Space Marine, Imperial Guard, and any Imperial Soup games. I guess you can still play against Orks though, they're still pretty terrible.
Oh I see you actually play -as- Chaos... Death Guard no less. You'd better start turning down any game you're involved in. Wow, that's going to get real meta real fast.
Yeah...I would be very surprised if these changes put eldar past chaos. I'm sure Mortarian will love turning our elves T2 so that bolters wound them on a 2+. Chaos is my main army and is one of the most solid, well-rounded armies out there, as well as having genuinely high end competitive builds. It's full of some of the strongest things in the game (Both primarchs, brimstones, maelific lords) and many damn solid units (cultists, noise marines, zerkers, oblits, havocs, fire raptors, hellturkeys), has excellent and fluffy strategems and a wide variety of playstyles. It's probably the third best force out there after IG and girlyman space marines (or soup between the two).
If I had to estimate, I'd think these changes will put craftworlds right below chaos, maybe on par, certainly not vastly ahead.
The bigger shift I could see in the meta is being a good counter to AM. The sniper heavy nature of what I think will be the main lists provides a real answer to commissars, which means in turn an answer to hordes. Swooping Hawks to lasblaster the hell out of conscript blobs which have lost their morale immunity after rangers put down their commissars, combined with having -3 or -4 to morale? Quite some potential there, as much as anything in the game can have potential against hordes. We also have also have a decent chance to endure the long-range alpha strike, since we can hide away most of what can't get -2 to be hit either in deep strike or in LoS terrain (which won't help against all guard, but will against some). Even guard dakka will cry trying to blow up things only hitting on 6+
Dionysodorus wrote: Yes, you'd be using a Serpent for a more reliable charge. Deep-striking the Scorpions is exposing yourself to a pretty large chance that they fail to do anything, and then they die easier than tactical Marines. It's much easier to get them into combat with a Serpent. Sure, your opponent could move away as fast as possible but I will happily leave a unit of Scorpions inside a Serpent all game if it means that my opponent is continually moving so that he's about 20" away from me at the end of his movement phase -- Scorpions' average charge can reach something 18" away from your Serpent.
I mean, I doubt they're worth it right now either way, but I tend to think that they're better in a Serpent than out of one as-is.
I have had great success deploying them into terrain for a 2+ save right up near the enemy, it forces your opponent to react to them usually and you want to be picking off weak units with them anyway. They can take a lot of firepower sitting in cover. Drawing and soaking up enemy fire is not failing to do anything. Also having a unit you can deploy in hiding means your opponent has to put down one extra unit before you start putting down too, this is why I always tend to bring at least one Scorpion squad. Now they are 15ppm they are even cheaper and efficient harasser unit.
Also that charge range is over two turns it would be good if it was one.
Dionysodorus wrote: Yes, you'd be using a Serpent for a more reliable charge. Deep-striking the Scorpions is exposing yourself to a pretty large chance that they fail to do anything, and then they die easier than tactical Marines. It's much easier to get them into combat with a Serpent. Sure, your opponent could move away as fast as possible but I will happily leave a unit of Scorpions inside a Serpent all game if it means that my opponent is continually moving so that he's about 20" away from me at the end of his movement phase -- Scorpions' average charge can reach something 18" away from your Serpent.
I mean, I doubt they're worth it right now either way, but I tend to think that they're better in a Serpent than out of one as-is.
I have had great success deploying them into terrain for a 2+ save right up near the enemy, it forces your opponent to react to them usually and you want to be picking off weak units with them anyway. They can take a lot of firepower sitting in cover. Drawing and soaking up enemy fire is not failing to do anything. Also having a unit you can deploy in hiding means your opponent has to put down one extra unit before you start putting down too, this is why I always tend to bring at least one Scorpion squad. Now they are 15ppm they are even cheaper and efficient harasser unit.
Also that charge range is over two turns it would be good if it was one.
I feel like if you've got Scorpions sitting in cover in a place where your opponent can't just move one unit back a little bit and then ignore them unless they want to leave cover, they're going to be pretty easy to deal with. Yeah, they do well against bolters. But even in cover, current 15 point Scorpions are only a little more durable per point vs lasguns than are tactical Marines outside of cover. And then they're much more vulnerable than Guardsmen outside of cover to things like heavy bolters and assault cannons, which are likely to be close by -- in general almost everything that you'd ordinarily be happy shooting at horde units is about as good or better against Scorpions in cover, and then you're also really happy to shoot at them with stuff you'd ordinarily throw at MEQs. Like, unbuffed Guardians expect to make back about half their points in a single volley against 15 point Scorpions in cover. They're also very vulnerable to CC. Mandiblasters do very little if they're not the chargers, and then of course they don't benefit from cover in this case. A counter-assault unit is going to tear them apart.
In 1 turn, an Eldar infantry model can disembark with the front of its base 4" from a Serpent, then move 7", then average a 7" charge, which is an 18" average range. It is really not difficult to get a pretty safe charge out of a Serpent unless your opponent goes to great lengths to stop you.
I think cross-faction comparisons are really useful in general to try to put things in context. An Assault Marine with a jump pack is 16 points. They give up Mandiblasters, have slightly worse pistols, and hit slightly worse against units entirely in cover, but move 12" and are signficantly more durable against small arms. No one uses them this way. They're regarded as being pretty bad, even though they appear to be better than Scorpions at the job you're saying you like Scorpions for.
Amishprn86 wrote: They got a stratagem to make Seer council smite act normal.
Do they? I just looked through, and I found a warlock conclave one that costs 1CP to double the range of a manifested power... but it would still just be an 18" range baby smite. Unless you have more than 7 warlocks in the conclave, then it would be a decent smite. But 1CP and 7+ warlocks (so 300 odd points) just for one decent smite doesn't seem that great, considering you can get the same by buying a spiritseer for 45 points and no CP's.
Singing spears for 4 points are seeming like a better weapon than warlocks attempting smite.
sennacherib wrote: Was hoping to see a little more balance.
Likely going to have to turn down eldar games.
[MOD EDIT - - RULE #1 -- Alpharius]
Alaitoc is meta defining. If someone sets up a properly made alaitoc army, I’ll just pack up. An entire army with minis 2 to hit is going to force the meta to revolve around it. It’s insane. Your army has to drop in within 12 or you’ll just not win ever
sennacherib wrote: Was hoping to see a little more balance.
Likely going to have to turn down eldar games.
[MOD EDIT - - RULE #1 -- Alpharius]
Alaitoc is meta defining. If someone sets up a properly made alaitoc army, I’ll just pack up. An entire army with minis 2 to hit is going to force the meta to revolve around it. It’s insane. Your army has to drop in within 12 or you’ll just not win ever
Discouraging/reducing the effectiveness of gunlines doesn't seem bad for the meta.
sennacherib wrote: Was hoping to see a little more balance.
Likely going to have to turn down eldar games.
[MOD EDIT - - RULE #1 -- Alpharius]
Alaitoc is meta defining. If someone sets up a properly made alaitoc army, I’ll just pack up. An entire army with minis 2 to hit is going to force the meta to revolve around it. It’s insane. Your army has to drop in within 12 or you’ll just not win ever
Well, the same could easily be said for an army that turns up with 120 conscripts. And guess what, it -was- meta defining. Still is.
A lot of the Eldar units you're worried about only have a 12-18" range on weapons, so they'll be moving close anyway. And they're so fragile if you get in range you can just shoot them off the board.
You're Chaos, so you can drop in Obliterators within 12" and shoot a unit off the board each turn. Or use your own infiltration stratagem to put berserkers in charge range, and remove another unit off the table each turn. And all your units also get -1 to hit.
Alaitoc is probably the best of the traits, but to get -2 on every unit you'd have to bring a lot of warlocks or spiritseers, now that conceal isn't an aura but is instead just a single unit buff.
sennacherib wrote: Was hoping to see a little more balance.
Likely going to have to turn down eldar games.
[MOD EDIT - - RULE #1 -- Alpharius]
Alaitoc is meta defining. If someone sets up a properly made alaitoc army, I’ll just pack up. An entire army with minis 2 to hit is going to force the meta to revolve around it. It’s insane. Your army has to drop in within 12 or you’ll just not win ever
Discouraging/reducing the effectiveness of gunlines doesn't seem bad for the meta.
And there comes the orks who don't give a gak for the minus beyond 1, going to close the gap and Gank you in melee.
Alaitoc is probably the best of the traits, but to get -2 on every unit you'd have to bring a lot of warlocks or spiritseers, now that conceal isn't an aura but is instead just a single unit buff.
Really? warp spiders, shadow spectres, rangers, hemlocks, crimson hunters, phoenix, nightwings, hornets, lynx, any vehicle with vectored engines all have -1 to hit built in before alaitoc and conceal.
With warp spiders now having deep strike and webway portal, having a unit of warp spiders, swooping hawks and shadow spectres deep striking to a hemlock that has jetted backfield could be super nasty. With a second wave in wave serpents backed up by rangers and fire prisms would be a tough nut to crack.
Alaitoc is probably the best of the traits, but to get -2 on every unit you'd have to bring a lot of warlocks or spiritseers, now that conceal isn't an aura but is instead just a single unit buff.
Really? warp spiders, shadow spectres, rangers, hemlocks, crimson hunters, phoenix, nightwings, hornets, lynx, any vehicle with vectored engines all have -1 to hit built in before alaitoc and conceal.
With warp spiders now having deep strike and webway portal, having a unit of warp spiders, swooping hawks and shadow spectres deep striking to a hemlock that has jetted backfield could be super nasty. With a second wave in wave serpents backed up by rangers and fire prisms would be a tough nut to crack.
If it ends up being too powerful, GW will nerf it. Unlike Imperium armies, GW have been very quick to nerf any benefits Xenos have had in 8th. Hence the quick removal of razorwings from the game.
Personally, I'm glad there's finally a counter to IG and Gulliman parking lot gunlines. People will have to bring some actual mobile units, and some assault squads. What a shame.
Guys, on the topic of Spectres, did Irrylith get FAQd to have the character rule?
I may be blind but I don't see it on his sheet in the Xenos page.
Him with the WT that allows you to shoot characters even if they're not the closest + multiple Altaioc Spectre sauads w/ some Hemlocks has me pretty jazzed in theory land.
Amishprn86 wrote: They got a stratagem to make Seer council smite act normal.
Do they? I just looked through, and I found a warlock conclave one that costs 1CP to double the range of a manifested power... but it would still just be an 18" range baby smite. Unless you have more than 7 warlocks in the conclave, then it would be a decent smite. But 1CP and 7+ warlocks (so 300 odd points) just for one decent smite doesn't seem that great, considering you can get the same by buying a spiritseer for 45 points and no CP's.
Singing spears for 4 points are seeming like a better weapon than warlocks attempting smite.
I thought it was 5? And thats what i meant 5 + the 1CP = normal lol.
Amishprn86 wrote: They got a stratagem to make Seer council smite act normal.
Do they? I just looked through, and I found a warlock conclave one that costs 1CP to double the range of a manifested power... but it would still just be an 18" range baby smite. Unless you have more than 7 warlocks in the conclave, then it would be a decent smite. But 1CP and 7+ warlocks (so 300 odd points) just for one decent smite doesn't seem that great, considering you can get the same by buying a spiritseer for 45 points and no CP's.
Singing spears for 4 points are seeming like a better weapon than warlocks attempting smite.
I thought it was 5? And thats what i meant 5 + the 1CP = normal lol.
I agree its not very good..........
Actually you're right, for "normal" smite damage it's 4-6 warlocks. 7+ warlocks means it always deals D6 no matter what you roll in the psychic test. So yeh, 4+ warlocks with that stratagem gets normal smite. Seems they'd be able to cast two smites in fact, and 7+ warlocks can cast 3 smites. (Can the same unit cast multiple smites? I know smite isn't effected by the matched play "once per turn" rule, can't remember if it had any other limits. Can't say I've ever tried to smite twice from one character before).
Still though, 4+ warlocks for 2x normal smites... or 2 spiritseers for the same. And warlocks perils are D3 mortal wounds, on models with only 2 wounds, so if you roll a 3 you will end up killing one and damaging another.
It looks like we will have better fortunes..... But I still don't hear the one big thing we need: a way to cancel invulnerable saves. Without that you are at a severe disadvantage vs the dick who brings both Mortarian and Magnus. And you're bound to meet him at a big event.
Dionysodorus wrote: Yes, you'd be using a Serpent for a more reliable charge. Deep-striking the Scorpions is exposing yourself to a pretty large chance that they fail to do anything, and then they die easier than tactical Marines. It's much easier to get them into combat with a Serpent. Sure, your opponent could move away as fast as possible but I will happily leave a unit of Scorpions inside a Serpent all game if it means that my opponent is continually moving so that he's about 20" away from me at the end of his movement phase -- Scorpions' average charge can reach something 18" away from your Serpent.
I mean, I doubt they're worth it right now either way, but I tend to think that they're better in a Serpent than out of one as-is.
I have had great success deploying them into terrain for a 2+ save right up near the enemy, it forces your opponent to react to them usually and you want to be picking off weak units with them anyway. They can take a lot of firepower sitting in cover. Drawing and soaking up enemy fire is not failing to do anything. Also having a unit you can deploy in hiding means your opponent has to put down one extra unit before you start putting down too, this is why I always tend to bring at least one Scorpion squad. Now they are 15ppm they are even cheaper and efficient harasser unit.
Also that charge range is over two turns it would be good if it was one.
I feel like if you've got Scorpions sitting in cover in a place where your opponent can't just move one unit back a little bit and then ignore them unless they want to leave cover, they're going to be pretty easy to deal with. Yeah, they do well against bolters. But even in cover, current 15 point Scorpions are only a little more durable per point vs lasguns than are tactical Marines outside of cover. And then they're much more vulnerable than Guardsmen outside of cover to things like heavy bolters and assault cannons, which are likely to be close by -- in general almost everything that you'd ordinarily be happy shooting at horde units is about as good or better against Scorpions in cover, and then you're also really happy to shoot at them with stuff you'd ordinarily throw at MEQs. Like, unbuffed Guardians expect to make back about half their points in a single volley against 15 point Scorpions in cover. They're also very vulnerable to CC. Mandiblasters do very little if they're not the chargers, and then of course they don't benefit from cover in this case. A counter-assault unit is going to tear them apart.
In 1 turn, an Eldar infantry model can disembark with the front of its base 4" from a Serpent, then move 7", then average a 7" charge, which is an 18" average range. It is really not difficult to get a pretty safe charge out of a Serpent unless your opponent goes to great lengths to stop you.
I think cross-faction comparisons are really useful in general to try to put things in context. An Assault Marine with a jump pack is 16 points. They give up Mandiblasters, have slightly worse pistols, and hit slightly worse against units entirely in cover, but move 12" and are signficantly more durable against small arms. No one uses them this way. They're regarded as being pretty bad, even though they appear to be better than Scorpions at the job you're saying you like Scorpions for.
I think you and Korlandril have both listed the best ways to use scorpions, so you both make valid points. Alaitoc Scorpions probably fair slightly better when you use them on the table due to -1 to hit, it forces the squad you put them near to deal with them or run away. I love sticking them in a Serpent with fortune and doom support Farseer though, add Yriel for extra fun
Coldsteel wrote: It looks like we will have better fortunes..... But I still don't hear the one big thing we need: a way to cancel invulnerable saves. Without that you are at a severe disadvantage vs the dick who brings both Mortarian and Magnus. And you're bound to meet him at a big event.
Well how about this - Take a Jetbike Warlock with the Protect/Jinx power, then use the stratagem (Edit: Concordance of Power) for 1 CP which doubles the range of his powers. Sit 36 inches away from Morty/Magnus and his friends and you can cast the power without any risk of being denied (enemy HAS to be within 24 inches), for a -1 modifier to their armour/invuln saves.
Only -1 but seems far more fool proof than say, trying to get within 6 inches for null zone...
Coldsteel wrote: It looks like we will have better fortunes..... But I still don't hear the one big thing we need: a way to cancel invulnerable saves. Without that you are at a severe disadvantage vs the dick who brings both Mortarian and Magnus. And you're bound to meet him at a big event.
Well how about this - Take a Jetbike Warlock with the Protect/Jinx power, then use the stratagem (Edit: Concordance of Power) for 1 CP which doubles the range of his powers. Sit 36 inches away from Morty/Magnus and his friends and you can cast the power without any risk of being denied (enemy HAS to be within 24 inches), for a -1 modifier to their armour/invuln saves.
Only -1 but seems far more fool proof than say, trying to get within 6 inches for null zone...
I think that strategem may be for Conclave Warlocks only.
It would also be amazing to have a more detailed understanding of their power generation as a conclave (lots of different iterations, mainly people calling them rubbish)
As all of the videos seem unclear. As I understand they are cheaper in a conclave than as individuals? This is my understanding thus far:
Warlock: 35pts
Warlock sky runner: 65pts
Warlock conclave: 30pts per model minimum 2
Warlock skyrunner conclave: 60ptd per model minimum 2
Singing spear: 4pts
So a large conclave of 10 with singing spears = 640 pts?
Totally understand they're not optimum. Would just like to understand for fun games.
So, I've not ever really played Eldar, but the Bonesinger and FW Avatar have been on my bucket list for nearly a decade at this point, and the new codex, along with the new Bonesinger availability have me really considering getting on this Xenos scum train.
With that in mind, and with a few grains of salt since we haven't seen too much going on about him quite yet, my primary interest in Eldar would be the potential to build a list around the Avatar. Based on what we know so far, what are peoples' thoughts on the best units to run with him as the core of an army with the intent of being at least semi-competitive? I'm personally a fan of lower model counts myself, but I'm open to any ideas for the sake of discussion.
Due to the limitations the Avatar faces in mobility due to not being able to ride in a transport, I feel slightly hesitant about wraithblades as an escort, since their low mobility would serve to leave him vulnerable. Perhaps some Shadow Spectres at -2 using the jump-shoot-jump stratagem could serve as a solid screen during the turn or two it takes him to reach his destination? Of course, they don't do much to synergize with the Avatar's offense, meaning he'd still need some solid linebreaking offense.
My hope for the Avatar is that he'll be able to use the infiltrate/deepstrike stratagem. Don't know the details yet, but I can imagine fielding him that way together with a large unit of Guardian Defenders. They should offer a good protection bubble for a while, bring a worthwhile shooting themself and will be immune to morale. No clue if that can be competitive but it sounds like a chance to finally bring him quick enough to the enemy.
sennacherib wrote: Was hoping to see a little more balance.
Likely going to have to turn down eldar games.
Take a step back and wait for the meta to settle. At this point you really cannot know what is balanced and what is not. And Rangers surely needed a points reduction.
My only concern is the prevalence of infiltrate stratagems that are super-broken. But they are not more broken with Eldar than with Alpha Legion or Imperium Soup.
The warlord traits and relics all seem pretty bad. I feel like by far the best warlord trait is the sniper autarch, but only if you're using the old autarch rules so that he can have like a reaper launcher and an avenger catapult.
I'm not sure that there's a single relic worth being excited about. 12" move and Fly seems like the default choice just to save some points on a bike or wings for a character. There's one that increases the number of shots that a "shuriken pistol or shuriken catapult" has by 2. I'm not sure that any characters actually have shuriken catapults; if it applies to avenger catapults and twin catapults then maybe that's worthwhile on the sniper Autarch I mentioned earlier.
Long-term it seems to me that you will basically always want a Harlequin, Dark Eldar, or Ynnari warlord because one of them will almost certainly have far better traits and relics.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fafnir wrote: So, I've not ever really played Eldar, but the Bonesinger and FW Avatar have been on my bucket list for nearly a decade at this point, and the new codex, along with the new Bonesinger availability have me really considering getting on this Xenos scum train.
With that in mind, and with a few grains of salt since we haven't seen too much going on about him quite yet, my primary interest in Eldar would be the potential to build a list around the Avatar. Based on what we know so far, what are peoples' thoughts on the best units to run with him as the core of an army with the intent of being at least semi-competitive? I'm personally a fan of lower model counts myself, but I'm open to any ideas for the sake of discussion.
Due to the limitations the Avatar faces in mobility due to not being able to ride in a transport, I feel slightly hesitant about wraithblades as an escort, since their low mobility would serve to leave him vulnerable. Perhaps some Shadow Spectres at -2 using the jump-shoot-jump stratagem could serve as a solid screen during the turn or two it takes him to reach his destination? Of course, they don't do much to synergize with the Avatar's offense, meaning he'd still need some solid linebreaking offense.
Shadow Spectres are of course very strong. I think another great option with an Avatar would be Shining Spears. They're 31 points each now for T4 W2 3+/4++, and the Protect power makes them 2+/3++. Even without Protect they're a very durable unit against everything except AP-1.
Obviously you're using Alatoic in order to stay as durable as possible as you move up the board. Note that there's a 2 CP stratagem which makes Spectres basically untouchable at range, since they'd be at -3 to hit past 12". You could stack this with Conceal for -4.
I love shining spears but the amount of d2 weapons out there that just vape them make me reluctant to run them. Hopefully protect and alaitoc trait will help them, but running them without strength from death makes me even more reluctant to take them.
Hopefully the point discount will help that tho, where if they do get targeted first like mine do the enemy at least has to give up a fair amount of shooting to do it, and then it’s only a small points investment lost.
+3 to charge range
No overwatch
Accompanying exarch = -1 to hit for enemy
Either Saim Hann or command point re–rolls for added insurance on the charge range.
While I have not played a single game of 8th yet, his seems like a reliable way to get them into combat with tanks or chaff units and disrupt the lines of the enemy even if they are not the most deadly models around. They should easily make the charge and should be able to wrap around and capture quite a few models, either killing the enemy or forcing them to fall back and not shoot. If they are shot in return once the units they have assaulted fall back, then they take the pressure off your other units as you have the units they assaulted plus the units that chose to shoot at you occupied.
Thoughts? Or are the equivalent points of dire avengers/guardians/wraithguard better?
Wyldcarde wrote: I love shining spears but the amount of d2 weapons out there that just vape them make me reluctant to run them. Hopefully protect and alaitoc trait will help them, but running them without strength from death makes me even more reluctant to take them.
Hopefully the point discount will help that tho, where if they do get targeted first like mine do the enemy at least has to give up a fair amount of shooting to do it, and then it’s only a small points investment lost.
The 4++ makes this not too bad even without Protect. Like, overcharged plasma does more points' worth of damage to most vehicles (other than Wave Serpents) than to Spears. They're also a prime target for Fortune. And they hit harder than basically anything else in the codex. Their shoot-and-charge has more damage output per point than anything else I've looked at so far against practically everything.
It's heavy bolters that you really need to watch out for, although even here they're still more durable than Dire Avengers outside of cover.
I guess also if you're just really concerned about what happens if they start on the table and your opponent gets first turn, you could instead deep strike them for 1 CP. You then have a pretty hard charge to make, although the Warlock power that lets a unit move presumably helps with that (I'm not sure if there was ever an official ruling on warptime and deep strike).
Yeah, the 4++ helps. And I definitely think they are good. I’m just getting to the point where it seems to make sense to stick with single wound stuff to not give those d2 guns good targets.
Deep striking them could be valid however you miss the shooting of the lances which isn’t necessarily a big deal. Will be a nice combo with quicken tho if it does work.
That being said I’d rather just deep strike shadow spectres into enemy flanks.
+3 to charge range
No overwatch
Accompanying exarch = -1 to hit for enemy
Either Saim Hann or command point re–rolls for added insurance on the charge range.
While I have not played a single game of 8th yet, his seems like a reliable way to get them into combat with tanks or chaff units and disrupt the lines of the enemy even if they are not the most deadly models around. They should easily make the charge and should be able to wrap around and capture quite a few models, either killing the enemy or forcing them to fall back and not shoot. If they are shot in return once the units they have assaulted fall back, then they take the pressure off your other units as you have the units they assaulted plus the units that chose to shoot at you occupied.
Thoughts? Or are the equivalent points of dire avengers/guardians/wraithguard better?
Something I had also considered, they essentially prevent the enemies main shooting units from shooting for a phase, just bring them out one at a time. That's 2 turns their main units aren't shooting while you destroy their other key units with your own a shooting units.
Iyanden Banshees may be something to consider, means if they are counter charged the enemy needs to kill practically all of them to stop them threatening something else next turn (and the exarch still gives -1 to hit in combat).
I'm not quite sure about DS with Shadow Spectres. Obvious advantage is only giving enemy a single turn of shooting before they get within flamer range, but down side being that the DS of over 9" means they will come in and not be able to flame grill their target, which is where they perform best.
With regards Ynarri, do we know for certain yet how the Ynarri rules combine with Craftworld? I.e can we still take a detachment of Ynarri with Ynarri Warlord and then run 1-2 detachments of Craftworld for the SfD benefit? It would fit in the fluff to be able to do so. Only thing that would stop it is if the Codex explicitly says you can't...
Spectres shoot plenty good in single fire mode. Will wreck meq and still perform nicely against geq (especially with a bit of psychic backup). I would be running them from an alaitoc point of view where you can drop them at 16ish in cover to minimise return fire. Plus warp spiders and swooping hawks can drop with them for a nasty ball of death. The change to swooping hawks at assault 4 and cheaper make them a super tempting option for geq.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah also keen to work out about ynnari interaction. Will come down to wording but hopefully the option is there to combine. At least craftworld seems viable on their own tho.
Wyldcarde wrote: Spectres shoot plenty good in single fire mode. Will wreck meq and still perform nicely against geq (especially with a bit of psychic backup). I would be running them from an alaitoc point of view where you can drop them at 16ish in cover to minimise return fire. Plus warp spiders and swooping hawks can drop with them for a nasty ball of death. The change to swooping hawks at assault 4 and cheaper make them a super tempting option for geq.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah also keen to work out about ynnari interaction. Will come down to wording but hopefully the option is there to combine. At least craftworld seems viable on their own tho.
I've been using a min squad of Hawks for a few games and they have worked out how I needed them to. Start in reserve, drop in turn 3 out of LOS. Turn 4 go back into reserve. Turn 5 land again out of LOS on an objective and/or getting me Linebreaker. Now that they are cheaper, it's even better. It gives me a ton of flexibility to ensure they get me the points I'm going after with them. We also play Eternal War missions and not Maelstrom, which could effect this tactic.
Wyldcarde wrote: Spectres shoot plenty good in single fire mode. Will wreck meq and still perform nicely against geq (especially with a bit of psychic backup). I would be running them from an alaitoc point of view where you can drop them at 16ish in cover to minimise return fire. Plus warp spiders and swooping hawks can drop with them for a nasty ball of death. The change to swooping hawks at assault 4 and cheaper make them a super tempting option for geq.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah also keen to work out about ynnari interaction. Will come down to wording but hopefully the option is there to combine. At least craftworld seems viable on their own tho.
I've been using a min squad of Hawks for a few games and they have worked out how I needed them to. Start in reserve, drop in turn 3 out of LOS. Turn 4 go back into reserve. Turn 5 land again out of LOS on an objective and/or getting me Linebreaker. Now that they are cheaper, it's even better. It gives me a ton of flexibility to ensure they get me the points I'm going after with them. We also play Eternal War missions and not Maelstrom, which could effect this tactic.
I think anyone who doesnt take a hard look at swooping hawks now is missing out. They are cheaper than they have ever been, and 40 shots out of a squad with Doom is nothing to sneeze at vs horde. They will hurt marines too with Doom.
Drake003 wrote: With regards Ynarri, do we know for certain yet how the Ynarri rules combine with Craftworld? I.e can we still take a detachment of Ynarri with Ynarri Warlord and then run 1-2 detachments of Craftworld for the SfD benefit? It would fit in the fluff to be able to do so. Only thing that would stop it is if the Codex explicitly says you can't...
There is a paragraph that states fielding a single Ynnari model (this obviously include CW units given the Ynnari keyword) stops being a CW detachment for bennefiting from a Craftworld trait, warlord traits or relics. Stratagems are not explicitly mentioned, but it would be a logical assumption they would also lose access to them, as they are labeled as Craftworlds stratagems.
I'm going to use the Triumvirate models with CWE count as rules unless a FAQ give us the CW stratagems.
Thinking about running 2 Wraithlords with 2x ShuriCannon and Ghost Glaive, and putting an Avatar behind them. Advance them up a flank and have 2 Dire Avenger units deepstriking turn 2 firing at doomed targets, 2 Farseers with some squads in serpents backing them up with fortune, havent decided what squads though. 5 or 6 man Ranger squad to fill out troops and pick off weak targets. Think this might work. Used to run Avengers in serpents but why bother when they deepstrike 9" away for 3 CP?
Drake003 wrote: With regards Ynarri, do we know for certain yet how the Ynarri rules combine with Craftworld? I.e can we still take a detachment of Ynarri with Ynarri Warlord and then run 1-2 detachments of Craftworld for the SfD benefit? It would fit in the fluff to be able to do so. Only thing that would stop it is if the Codex explicitly says you can't...
There is a paragraph that states fielding a single Ynnari model (this obviously include CW units given the Ynnari keyword) stops being a CW detachment for bennefiting from a Craftworld trait, warlord traits or relics. Stratagems are not explicitly mentioned, but it would be a logical assumption they would also lose access to them, as they are labeled as Craftworlds stratagems.
I'm going to use the Triumvirate models with CWE count as rules unless a FAQ give us the CW stratagems.
Yes a ynnari model in a craftworld detachment is likely to make the detachment lose craftworld.
But, the thinking is taking a ynnari hq in a patrol detachment as warlord, then taking craftworld detachments along with it. With ynnari model as warlord then that should unlock strength from death, but will depend on the wording.
Drake003 wrote: With regards Ynarri, do we know for certain yet how the Ynarri rules combine with Craftworld? I.e can we still take a detachment of Ynarri with Ynarri Warlord and then run 1-2 detachments of Craftworld for the SfD benefit? It would fit in the fluff to be able to do so. Only thing that would stop it is if the Codex explicitly says you can't...
There is a paragraph that states fielding a single Ynnari model (this obviously include CW units given the Ynnari keyword) stops being a CW detachment for bennefiting from a Craftworld trait, warlord traits or relics. Stratagems are not explicitly mentioned, but it would be a logical assumption they would also lose access to them, as they are labeled as Craftworlds stratagems.
I'm going to use the Triumvirate models with CWE count as rules unless a FAQ give us the CW stratagems.
Yes a ynnari model in a craftworld detachment is likely to make the detachment lose craftworld.
But, the thinking is taking a ynnari hq in a patrol detachment as warlord, then taking craftworld detachments along with it. With ynnari model as warlord then that should unlock strength from death, but will depend on the wording.
You would get strength from death, but only on your Ynnari units. A unit in a Craftworld Detachment can't be Ynnari and so would always still have Battle Focus instead.
MaLiKAR wrote: Could someone confirm the costs for warlocks?
It would also be amazing to have a more detailed understanding of their power generation as a conclave (lots of different iterations, mainly people calling them rubbish)
As all of the videos seem unclear. As I understand they are cheaper in a conclave than as individuals? This is my understanding thus far:
Warlock: 35pts
Warlock sky runner: 65pts
Warlock conclave: 30pts per model minimum 2
Warlock skyrunner conclave: 60ptd per model minimum 2
Singing spear: 4pts
So a large conclave of 10 with singing spears = 640 pts?
Totally understand they're not optimum. Would just like to understand for fun games.
Is this true? Warlocks actually got -increased- in points to 35 each? What are GW smoking that they thought the old Warlocks were so good they required a nerf??! They were already completely pointless compared to a spiritseer, and now that the spiritseer is 20 points cheaper there's zero point to a warlock on foot.
And Skyrunner Warlocks only being 5 points cheaper than before doesn't really help them much either, they're still pretty expensive. 50 points for a skyrunner might have been acceptable, maybe.
And GW thought the conclaves were just right at their old points values... someone in the office must be seriously high right now.
I believe Warlocks are 30, singing spear is 5. Not too bad actually. I will be using 2 Warlocks in my list in serpents maybe, give enemy squads -1 to save or my aspect squads +1 to save.
Dionysodorus wrote: .
You would get strength from death, but only on your Ynnari units. A unit in a Craftworld Detachment can't be Ynnari and so would always still have Battle Focus instead.
But being Ynarri doesn't replace being Craftworld, you just can't have a non Craftworld unit in a Craftworld Detachment.
So take a Ynarri Patrol Detachment with Ynarri HQ, then take Craftworld Detachment which should therefore keep its Craftworld trait. But because it is in same army (not Detachment) all units in the Craftworld Detachment would gain the Ynarri key word in addition to their Craftworld key word. So it should stack, unless the Codex specifically stated somewhere that it does not.
That was my question. Is there a specific rule that says Craftworld units cannot gain the Ynarri key word and still keep Craftworld key word and trait?
Biel-Tan is a good candidate for taking the Avatar. The Avatar should be more than happy to footslog while some Banshees take a wave serpent and ride along in front so he can't be targeted. Once they get out you can use the Biel-Tan stratagem to guarantee they make it into combat. They'll be re-rolling hits and if you sprinkle in some psychic support they'll mince anything they come up against.
Dionysodorus wrote: .
You would get strength from death, but only on your Ynnari units. A unit in a Craftworld Detachment can't be Ynnari and so would always still have Battle Focus instead.
But being Ynarri doesn't replace being Craftworld, you just can't have a non Craftworld unit in a Craftworld Detachment.
So take a Ynarri Patrol Detachment with Ynarri HQ, then take Craftworld Detachment which should therefore keep its Craftworld trait. But because it is in same army (not Detachment) all units in the Craftworld Detachment would gain the Ynarri key word in addition to their Craftworld key word. So it should stack, unless the Codex specifically stated somewhere that it does not.
That was my question. Is there a specific rule that says Craftworld units cannot gain the Ynarri key word and still keep Craftworld key word and trait?
Yes, there is such a rule. If a detachment has a Ynnari unit in it then it is no longer a Craftworld Detachment. But the units could still have the <Craftworld> keyword -- every unit in the detachment could be <Craftworld> even.
Crusaderobr wrote: I believe Warlocks are 30, singing spear is 5. Not too bad actually. I will be using 2 Warlocks in my list in serpents maybe, give enemy squads -1 to save or my aspect squads +1 to save.
I did momentarily forget the singing spear drop in points... and it is the better weapon I think, with the strong 12" shot.
Still tempted by a seer council. Even if it's not actually going to be any good for the points.
I guess 2 farseers + 3 warlocks is better than 4 warlocks.
Maybe 1 Farseer, 1 Autarch, 3 warlocks. If the Autarch charges first with a banshee mask, no overwatch.
It's weird that GW are selling a "Seer Council" box set with 2 farseers and 3 warlocks, when only the warlocks can actually group into a single unit. Might even be better to ignore the conclave rule and just have single warlocks in formation around the farseer. They'd all be characters then, so a single windrider squad (or anything infiltrating) can stop the enemy even shooting at them.
Crusaderobr wrote: I believe Warlocks are 30, singing spear is 5. Not too bad actually. I will be using 2 Warlocks in my list in serpents maybe, give enemy squads -1 to save or my aspect squads +1 to save.
I did momentarily forget the singing spear drop in points... and it is the better weapon I think, with the strong 12" shot.
Still tempted by a seer council. Even if it's not actually going to be any good for the points.
I guess 2 farseers + 3 warlocks is better than 4 warlocks.
Maybe 1 Farseer, 1 Autarch, 3 warlocks. If the Autarch charges first with a banshee mask, no overwatch.
It's weird that GW are selling a "Seer Council" box set with 2 farseers and 3 warlocks, when only the warlocks can actually group into a single unit. Might even be better to ignore the conclave rule and just have single warlocks in formation around the farseer. They'd all be characters then, so a single windrider squad (or anything infiltrating) can stop the enemy even shooting at them.
Nothing wrong with using 2 Farseers, I love double fortune and doom every turn ; ) 105 points too, Farseers are cheap now.
Crusaderobr wrote: I believe Warlocks are 30, singing spear is 5. Not too bad actually. I will be using 2 Warlocks in my list in serpents maybe, give enemy squads -1 to save or my aspect squads +1 to save.
I did momentarily forget the singing spear drop in points... and it is the better weapon I think, with the strong 12" shot.
Still tempted by a seer council. Even if it's not actually going to be any good for the points.
I guess 2 farseers + 3 warlocks is better than 4 warlocks.
Maybe 1 Farseer, 1 Autarch, 3 warlocks. If the Autarch charges first with a banshee mask, no overwatch.
It's weird that GW are selling a "Seer Council" box set with 2 farseers and 3 warlocks, when only the warlocks can actually group into a single unit. Might even be better to ignore the conclave rule and just have single warlocks in formation around the farseer. They'd all be characters then, so a single windrider squad (or anything infiltrating) can stop the enemy even shooting at them.
Nothing wrong with using 2 Farseers, I love double fortune and doom every turn ; ) 105 points too, Farseers are cheap now.
129pts for a Farseer Skyrunner with Singing Spear, I think. Though used to be 168pts so it's still 39 points cheaper. Thats a whole warlock.
Maybe 1 Farseer, 1 Autarch, 3 warlocks. If the Autarch charges first with a banshee mask, no overwatch.
I dont think any Codex Autarchs have Banshee Masks unfortunately. Only the Index ones and i don't know if the Index units would gain the updated Banshee Mask effect.
Maybe 1 Farseer, 1 Autarch, 3 warlocks. If the Autarch charges first with a banshee mask, no overwatch.
I dont think any Codex Autarchs have Banshee Masks unfortunately.
Oh really? I'd assumed they were keeping the masks and mandiblasters. If they get cut down to only being allowed shuriken pistols and power swords, I'm not sure on the point of them... they didn't get a points drop, and their only reason for existing becomes their reroll of 1's to hit. Which is good and all, but is it 100 points good?
Another Farseer might be a better option than Autarchs. Or even a warlock jetbiker.
Agreed with a lot of the warlock points but still no answer to the most important thing: how do their powers generate in a conclave.
I get that destructor is 1 MW - D3 - D6. The important thing is does the unit cast as one? If so how many spells can it cast? If it isn't at least one spell per warlock they are genuinely the lamest council ever conceived.
Its so odd to see the individual warlocks priced just 5pts more than conclave given the power of being a character vs being a unit.
MaLiKAR wrote: Agreed with a lot of the warlock points but still no answer to the most important thing: how do their powers generate in a conclave.
I get that destructor is 1 MW - D3 - D6. The important thing is does the unit cast as one? If so how many spells can it cast? If it isn't at least one spell per warlock they are genuinely the lamest council ever conceived.
Its so odd to see the individual warlocks priced just 5pts more than conclave given the power of being a character vs being a unit.
Really keen to know if anyone has any insight.
Their rule in the index said that if there was 1-3 warlocks they cast one power, 4-6 warlocks is two powers, and 7-10 warlocks is 3 powers. The unit knows Smite plus 2 powers from Runes of Battle. Doesn't seem to be anything stopping you from smiting three times with the one 10-warlock unit, but it's not very efficient compared to other army's options. However, that 10-warlock unit will be doing D6 wounds with each smite guaranteed, so maybe that averages out to being ok. 7 warlocks is probably the most you'd ever use in a unit, if not more like 4 or 5.
Single Warlocks are better because they're characters, and 5 warlocks get 5 smites instead of just 2. But -
- 4 single Warlocks do 4 smites for 1 wound each, so max of 4 mortal wounds.
- conclave of 4 Warlocks do 2 smites, for D3 wounds each, so max of 6 mortal wounds (but average of 3/4)
The conclave has less change of getting perils because of less casts. So less chance of murdering itself, as a perils is pretty much guaranteed to kill a warlock.
It's a bit of a balancing act. But if you spend 10 points more per model, you get -
- 4 single spiritseers. 4 smites, that could do 1 or D3 or D6 wounds each depending on rolls. Average would be around 6 mortal wounds. And you get twice the wounds, so they'll live longer and die from perils much less.
EDIT- Just to add, all the Warlock smites are only 9", even in full size conclaves. Spiritseer is always 18". Big difference by itself.
Wonder how it'll all turn out. Warlocks probably only become worth taking if you use them on jetbikes, otherwise they're just inferior Spiritseers.
MaLiKAR wrote: Agreed with a lot of the warlock points but still no answer to the most important thing: how do their powers generate in a conclave.
I get that destructor is 1 MW - D3 - D6. The important thing is does the unit cast as one? If so how many spells can it cast? If it isn't at least one spell per warlock they are genuinely the lamest council ever conceived.
Its so odd to see the individual warlocks priced just 5pts more than conclave given the power of being a character vs being a unit.
Really keen to know if anyone has any insight.
Their rule in the index said that if there was 1-3 warlocks they cast one power, 4-6 warlocks is two powers, and 7-10 warlocks is 3 powers. The unit knows Smite plus 2 powers from Runes of Battle. Doesn't seem to be anything stopping you from smiting three times with the one 10-warlock unit, but it's not very efficient compared to other army's options. However, that 10-warlock unit will be doing D6 wounds with each smite guaranteed, so maybe that averages out to being ok. 7 warlocks is probably the most you'd ever use in a unit, if not more like 4 or 5.
Single Warlocks are better because they're characters, and 5 warlocks get 5 smites instead of just 2. But -
- 4 single Warlocks do 4 smites for 1 wound each, so max of 4 mortal wounds.
- conclave of 4 Warlocks do 2 smites, for D3 wounds each, so max of 6 mortal wounds (but average of 3/4)
The conclave has less change of getting perils because of less casts. So less chance of murdering itself, as a perils is pretty much guaranteed to kill a warlock.
It's a bit of a balancing act. But if you spend 10 points more per model, you get -
- 4 single spiritseers. 4 smites, that could do 1 or D3 or D6 wounds each depending on rolls. Average would be around 6 mortal wounds. And you get twice the wounds, so they'll live longer and die from perils much less.
EDIT- Just to add, all the Warlock smites are only 9", even in full size conclaves. Spiritseer is always 18". Big difference by itself.
Wonder how it'll all turn out. Warlocks probably only become worth taking if you use them on jetbikes, otherwise they're just inferior Spiritseers.
Thanks for that. Is it the same in the new codex as the index? I should probably contextualise that I would love to run 10 on bikes like the councils of old. They don't need to be broken but just functional.
Honestly my preoccupation is not with smite at all. Its with all the other powers actually. Taking 10 warlocks to cast 3 powers with no significant buff would be super frustrating. I just don't see whats the incentive to take the conclave over individuals other than the 5 pts difference.
MaLiKAR wrote: Agreed with a lot of the warlock points but still no answer to the most important thing: how do their powers generate in a conclave.
I get that destructor is 1 MW - D3 - D6. The important thing is does the unit cast as one? If so how many spells can it cast? If it isn't at least one spell per warlock they are genuinely the lamest council ever conceived.
Its so odd to see the individual warlocks priced just 5pts more than conclave given the power of being a character vs being a unit.
Really keen to know if anyone has any insight.
Their rule in the index said that if there was 1-3 warlocks they cast one power, 4-6 warlocks is two powers, and 7-10 warlocks is 3 powers. The unit knows Smite plus 2 powers from Runes of Battle. Doesn't seem to be anything stopping you from smiting three times with the one 10-warlock unit, but it's not very efficient compared to other army's options. However, that 10-warlock unit will be doing D6 wounds with each smite guaranteed, so maybe that averages out to being ok. 7 warlocks is probably the most you'd ever use in a unit, if not more like 4 or 5.
Single Warlocks are better because they're characters, and 5 warlocks get 5 smites instead of just 2. But -
- 4 single Warlocks do 4 smites for 1 wound each, so max of 4 mortal wounds.
- conclave of 4 Warlocks do 2 smites, for D3 wounds each, so max of 6 mortal wounds (but average of 3/4)
The conclave has less change of getting perils because of less casts. So less chance of murdering itself, as a perils is pretty much guaranteed to kill a warlock.
It's a bit of a balancing act. But if you spend 10 points more per model, you get -
- 4 single spiritseers. 4 smites, that could do 1 or D3 or D6 wounds each depending on rolls. Average would be around 6 mortal wounds. And you get twice the wounds, so they'll live longer and die from perils much less.
EDIT- Just to add, all the Warlock smites are only 9", even in full size conclaves. Spiritseer is always 18". Big difference by itself.
Wonder how it'll all turn out. Warlocks probably only become worth taking if you use them on jetbikes, otherwise they're just inferior Spiritseers.
Thanks for that. Is it the same in the new codex as the index? I should probably contextualise that I would love to run 10 on bikes like the councils of old. They don't need to be broken but just functional.
Honestly my preoccupation is not with smite at all. Its with all the other powers actually. Taking 10 warlocks to cast 3 powers with no significant buff would be super frustrating. I just don't see whats the incentive to take the conclave over individuals other than the 5 pts difference.
Well 10 warlocks could cast ... well, with the new Runes of Battle powers, they could actually cast 10 different powers a turn, without a single smite. Don't know if there's actually 10 useful powers in there though.
I also would love to run a seer council, but I'd probably have 1 or 2 farseers in there, with maybe 4 or 5 warlocks, backed up with some wind riders or shining spears. Cheaper, and probably more effective/efficient overall. An Autarch for re-rollings 1's for all those jetbike catupults and singing spears might not be bad either.
Edit: Also, I think it's the same in the Codex as the Index, I haven't seen anything that's changed.
I don't know bro. Quicken, Protect, Jynx and Conceal seem pretty significant.
Having them together ofcourse also means you could cast those on the council as a whole.
I'll wait and see. Would love to see a council coming out of a webway assault and blast everything, chuck some spears around, Turtle up and see how they stand up to everything else with conceal, protect and fortune up.
MaLiKAR wrote: I don't know bro. Quicken, Protect, Jynx and Conceal seem pretty significant.
Having them together ofcourse also means you could cast those on the council as a whole.
I'll wait and see. Would love to see a council coming out of a webway assault and blast everything, chuck some spears around, Turtle up and see how they stand up to everything else with conceal, protect and fortune up.
Yes, the one big advantage of the warlocks being in a council is that they can cast the buffs on themselves. Unfortunately the Farseer's won't get much benefit, but if you keep them in the middle of the flock then they wouldn't need much more protection. I still would hesitate to use more than about 5 warlocks though... though if the maths end up working in favour of even larger squads I'd be happy enough.
Think i plan to bring 1 Spiritseer and 1 Warlock in my lists both with Protect/Jinx. Warlock will always try to cast Protect/Jinx, if it fails i've still got the Spiritseer to try again, if its successful i can pump out the other power or Smite.
Also means because there's a Warlock i could use the +1 to cast stratagem if he's near the Farseer. Best of both worlds.
DivineVisitor wrote: Think i plan to bring 1 Spiritseer and 1 Warlock in my lists both with Protect/Jinx. Warlock will always try to cast Protect/Jinx, if it fails i've still got the Spiritseer to try again, if its successful i can pump out the other power or Smite.
Also means because there's a Warlock i could use the +1 to cast stratagem if he's near the Farseer. Best of both worlds.
Even if you fail a power, you can't try again on the same power. Not in matched play anyway. You get one attempt at a power, win or lose.
Dionysodorus wrote: .
You would get strength from death, but only on your Ynnari units. A unit in a Craftworld Detachment can't be Ynnari and so would always still have Battle Focus instead.
But being Ynarri doesn't replace being Craftworld, you just can't have a non Craftworld unit in a Craftworld Detachment.
So take a Ynarri Patrol Detachment with Ynarri HQ, then take Craftworld Detachment which should therefore keep its Craftworld trait. But because it is in same army (not Detachment) all units in the Craftworld Detachment would gain the Ynarri key word in addition to their Craftworld key word. So it should stack, unless the Codex specifically stated somewhere that it does not.
That was my question. Is there a specific rule that says Craftworld units cannot gain the Ynarri key word and still keep Craftworld key word and trait?
In order to bennefit from SfD, a unit gains the Ynnari keyword. As states above, if any Ynnari unit is in a Craftworld detachment It can't use a trait, warlord trait or relic (and very likely stratagems either).
So, It wouldn't work.
You could decide to not give the Ynnari keyword to the CWE detachment unit, and they would get all the new toys. But what's the point? They wouldn't bennefit from SfD nor Revenant psychic powers.
Dionysodorus wrote: .
You would get strength from death, but only on your Ynnari units. A unit in a Craftworld Detachment can't be Ynnari and so would always still have Battle Focus instead.
But being Ynarri doesn't replace being Craftworld, you just can't have a non Craftworld unit in a Craftworld Detachment.
So take a Ynarri Patrol Detachment with Ynarri HQ, then take Craftworld Detachment which should therefore keep its Craftworld trait. But because it is in same army (not Detachment) all units in the Craftworld Detachment would gain the Ynarri key word in addition to their Craftworld key word. So it should stack, unless the Codex specifically stated somewhere that it does not.
That was my question. Is there a specific rule that says Craftworld units cannot gain the Ynarri key word and still keep Craftworld key word and trait?
In order to bennefit from SfD, a unit gains the Ynnari keyword. As states above, if any Ynnari unit is in a Craftworld detachment It can't use a trait, warlord trait or relic (and very likely stratagems either).
So, It wouldn't work.
You could decide to not give the Ynnari keyword to the CWE detachment unit, and they would get all the new toys. But what's the point? They wouldn't bennefit from SfD nor Revenant psychic powers.
I think there would still be good uses for mixed armies. One Craftworld detachment with Alaitoc as a hard-to-kill long range force (rangers, reapers, walkers maybe), all units that rarely get soulburst triggers.
Then a seperate detachment of Ynnari, with units that commonly get good use from soulburst. D-Scythe Guard maybe, things like that. Deepstriking units.
Because you have a craftworld detachment, you get access to stratagems. And if the stratagem just says <Guardian> units, or <Infantry>, then you can still use them on Ynnari no problem. I mean, the Ynnari units still have a <Craftworld> keyword, they just can't receive any benefits from traits from it. They can still be the target of a stratagem.
This is, at least, how it has been working for Marines and Guard. I assume it's the same for us. Without having the codex in front of me it's hard to be specific because a single word in the way the rule is written can change everything.
I'm pretty sure what you can do is make a ynnari detachment with yvraine as the warlord, make it something like a supreme command with a unit of wraithguard or 3 units of wraithguard and yvraine, all with SfD and then make the rest of your army in a different detachment, opt out of ynnari for that detachment, and use all of the CW stuff for them. Since your wraithguard don't benefit as much as some other units from CW stuff, but benefit a lot from SfD, you get your ynnari benefits and fluff while the rest of your army works off of CW and gets all the fun toys there. The only thing you end up having to lose out on is that yvraine gets a generic warlord trait.
I think it is a pretty fair set up, all things considered. Because, let's be real, SfD is better than battlefocus, so something has to give for ynnari to not just be better.
I am honestly torn now. Which is probably a good thing. Ynarri with Craftworld Detachment but not combining the abilities and losing out in good Warlord Trait, or just pure Craftworld. Prob the former if I can get the CP generation right, but otherwise Craftworld only might actually be the better option!
sennacherib wrote: Was hoping to see a little more balance.
Likely going to have to turn down eldar games.
[MOD EDIT - - RULE #1 -- Alpharius]
Alaitoc is meta defining. If someone sets up a properly made alaitoc army, I’ll just pack up. An entire army with minis 2 to hit is going to force the meta to revolve around it. It’s insane. Your army has to drop in within 12 or you’ll just not win ever
Well, the same could easily be said for an army that turns up with 120 conscripts. And guess what, it -was- meta defining. Still is.
A lot of the Eldar units you're worried about only have a 12-18" range on weapons, so they'll be moving close anyway. And they're so fragile if you get in range you can just shoot them off the board.
You're Chaos, so you can drop in Obliterators within 12" and shoot a unit off the board each turn. Or use your own infiltration stratagem to put berserkers in charge range, and remove another unit off the table each turn. And all your units also get -1 to hit.
Alaitoc is probably the best of the traits, but to get -2 on every unit you'd have to bring a lot of warlocks or spiritseers, now that conceal isn't an aura but is instead just a single unit buff.
Conscripts just got nerfed hard.
Alaitoc is legitimately in the running to be the best army on the back of eldar buffs. And when we say best, this isn't a good thing considering the candidates for best army involve things like 12 malefic lords and 2 primarchs.
sennacherib wrote: Was hoping to see a little more balance.
Likely going to have to turn down eldar games.
[MOD EDIT - - RULE #1 -- Alpharius]
Alaitoc is meta defining. If someone sets up a properly made alaitoc army, I’ll just pack up. An entire army with minis 2 to hit is going to force the meta to revolve around it. It’s insane. Your army has to drop in within 12 or you’ll just not win ever
Well, the same could easily be said for an army that turns up with 120 conscripts. And guess what, it -was- meta defining. Still is.
A lot of the Eldar units you're worried about only have a 12-18" range on weapons, so they'll be moving close anyway. And they're so fragile if you get in range you can just shoot them off the board.
You're Chaos, so you can drop in Obliterators within 12" and shoot a unit off the board each turn. Or use your own infiltration stratagem to put berserkers in charge range, and remove another unit off the table each turn. And all your units also get -1 to hit.
Alaitoc is probably the best of the traits, but to get -2 on every unit you'd have to bring a lot of warlocks or spiritseers, now that conceal isn't an aura but is instead just a single unit buff.
Conscripts just got nerfed hard.
Alaitoc is legitimately in the running to be the best army on the back of eldar buffs. And when we say best, this isn't a good thing considering the candidates for best army involve things like 12 malefic lords and 2 primarchs.
Hyper-Hyberbole Powers, ACTIVATE!
Commissars got nerfed, so that conscripts are no longer completely immune and immortal powerhouses of unlimited firepower. They still screen, and shoot, just the same as they did before. They just lose models to morale now, same as everyone else.
In fact, they -don't-, because even after the commissar change, Imperial Guard have 5 different OTHER ways to make them completely immune to morale. It just means they now need to plan, use different warlord traits, or doctrines, or use CP's. You know, like every other army does.
Conscripts didn't get nerfed hard. They got nerfed a bit. IG players now need to spend their multitude of CP's, or use other units, or one of several other approaches, if they want to keep the conscripts around. They're doing just fine.
The only thing that really changed, is that you'll see less commissars on the table. Conscripts will still be around just as much.
Commissars got nerfed, so that conscripts are no longer completely immune and immortal powerhouses of unlimited firepower. They still screen, and shoot, just the same as they did before. They just lose models to morale now, same as everyone else.
In fact, they -don't-, because even after the commissar change, Imperial Guard have 5 different OTHER ways to make them completely immune to morale. It just means they now need to plan, use different warlord traits, or doctrines, or use CP's. You know, like every other army does.
Conscripts didn't get nerfed hard. They got nerfed a bit. IG players now need to spend their multitude of CP's, or use other units, or one of several other approaches, if they want to keep the conscripts around. They're doing just fine.
The only thing that really changed, is that you'll see less commissars on the table. Conscripts will still be around just as much.
I think the precedent of the complaint-fueled nerf bat is what is most significant. Malefic lords etc may end up getting the same treatment. And Eldar have been historically the most complained about faction,
Yesterday I was busy pulling the hulls on my Eldar Grav tanks apart in order to spray them blue. Today I m feeling far more hesitant, perhaps I will leave them Ulthwe after all
Commissars got nerfed, so that conscripts are no longer completely immune and immortal powerhouses of unlimited firepower. They still screen, and shoot, just the same as they did before. They just lose models to morale now, same as everyone else.
In fact, they -don't-, because even after the commissar change, Imperial Guard have 5 different OTHER ways to make them completely immune to morale. It just means they now need to plan, use different warlord traits, or doctrines, or use CP's. You know, like every other army does.
Conscripts didn't get nerfed hard. They got nerfed a bit. IG players now need to spend their multitude of CP's, or use other units, or one of several other approaches, if they want to keep the conscripts around. They're doing just fine.
The only thing that really changed, is that you'll see less commissars on the table. Conscripts will still be around just as much.
I think the precedent of the complaint-fueled nerf bat is what is most significant. Malefic lords etc may end up getting the same treatment. And Eldar have been historically the most complained about faction,
Yesterday I was busy pulling the hulls on my Eldar Grav tanks apart in order to spray them blue. Today I m feeling far more hesitant, perhaps I will leave them Ulthwe after all
I'm in the middle of painting a wave serpent in black and bone.
I hadn't decided if I was going to play Ulthwe rules before I started, and I still don't know now. Black and bone looks cool. I'll use whatever rules I want for it.
I have to appreciate your dedication, to actually completely repaint your army to match the fluff exactly. But why bother? Space Marines don't need to, they just say "This is an ultramarines successor chapter, that happens to use the same colour scheme as blood angels. So they look like blood angels, but use Ultramarine rules and characters!". Just name your own craftworld and go from there.
Well most of my army is generic aspect warrior colours, and my tanks seriously needed repainting at some stage anyway (did them back in 4th edition before I was any good).
Ill probably keep the majority of my psykers in a Ulthwe supreme command detachment as well, so they can stay.
So I've got an unassembled Hemlock kit here, and I'm wondering if the new codex revelations have pushed the Crimson Hunter Exarch into a higher position. Hemlock has the advantage of 2d3 auto hitting high AP, high strength attacks with low damage. CHE has the benefit of running good anti-tank with some rerolls, plus it has the range to stay back and take advantage of the new faction abilities.
I've got a couple fire prisms and a squad of Dark Reapers for my other good anti-tank, and the option to set up some Wave Serpents and (soon) some Wraithlords with Bright Lances as well. Is the Exarch a better choice, or is flying in fast and using the Hemlock to give elite troops some horrifying D-amage still the better all around pick?
What is looking to be the optimal way to run webway assault guardians? It feels like a valid if not strong tactic overall, I just wonder what the best way to do it is.
20 with a farseer isn't cheap, but with doom and guide (Or Ulthwe for 2+) they'll shred most things. Is the farseer necessary? Would 10 and a platform be worth the 1 cp to drop in? A warlock or spiritseer add runes of battle for protect/jinx, conceal, or quicken.
RuneGrey wrote: So I've got an unassembled Hemlock kit here, and I'm wondering if the new codex revelations have pushed the Crimson Hunter Exarch into a higher position. Hemlock has the advantage of 2d3 auto hitting high AP, high strength attacks with low damage. CHE has the benefit of running good anti-tank with some rerolls, plus it has the range to stay back and take advantage of the new faction abilities.
I've got a couple fire prisms and a squad of Dark Reapers for my other good anti-tank, and the option to set up some Wave Serpents and (soon) some Wraithlords with Bright Lances as well. Is the Exarch a better choice, or is flying in fast and using the Hemlock to give elite troops some horrifying D-amage still the better all around pick?
I say Hemlock is better. Each attack may not deal as much damage on average, but the high strength and auto hitting mean that it's relatively rare that it doesn't cause wounds with them. It can also Smite, which is even more wounds.
Remember the reason to take warlocks also help with Deny the witch rolls. Your spiritseers/farseers will be on one side of the map and will use up one DtW roll then who will try the other....that is where a lot of Warlocks come in handy.
My opponents rarely get more than 1 psychic power off per turn due to all the DtW rolls
RuneGrey wrote: So I've got an unassembled Hemlock kit here, and I'm wondering if the new codex revelations have pushed the Crimson Hunter Exarch into a higher position. Hemlock has the advantage of 2d3 auto hitting high AP, high strength attacks with low damage. CHE has the benefit of running good anti-tank with some rerolls, plus it has the range to stay back and take advantage of the new faction abilities.
I've got a couple fire prisms and a squad of Dark Reapers for my other good anti-tank, and the option to set up some Wave Serpents and (soon) some Wraithlords with Bright Lances as well. Is the Exarch a better choice, or is flying in fast and using the Hemlock to give elite troops some horrifying D-amage still the better all around pick?
The easy answer to this now with the points changes is really take your pick.
The hemlock is the better all round option whereas crimson hunter is good anti tank/flier. Don’t underestimate a hemlocks tank hunting ability tho.
With the changes to how the warlock powers seem to work, no longer being aura, the hemlock is not as amazing as it was, but is still really really good. And the addition of some super handy warlock powers keeps it a very useful option in a variety of ways. But you pay for that privilege.
A crimson hunter is roughly 60? Points cheaper off the top of my head, probably more, so is a decent savings for a more specialised option.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It’s ironic though that hemlocks are the better anti flier choice.
Crimson hunters get 4 shots hitting on 4s wounding on 3s with rerolls whereas hemlocks get 2d3 auto hits likely wounding on 2s likely no armour save at 2 damage a pop.
The hemlock is the better all round option whereas crimson hunter is good anti tank/flier. Don’t underestimate a hemlocks tank hunting ability tho.
The Hemlock actually does more damage on average to a T8 3+ save vehicle (not flying, and not the exarch version) based on my very quick maths. For a T7 vehicle the Crimson Hunter catches up again, but then the Hemlock pull out ahead a bit for T6 targets, thanks to S12 in the new codex.
I'm not sure what the difference in points costs will be like but considering all the extra bonuses the Hemlock also brings to sweeten the deal, that's what I'd be bringing.
Or if you have a bit of advanced experience, have a go at magnetising so you have access to both! The wings and fins are quite tough to do, but at a bare minimum you just easily magnetise the 3 weapons and swap them out.
That's right, I'd forgotten that you've got the -2 on the Crimson Hunter thanks to Flyers + Moving, and it's got nothing to negate the firing heavy weapons while moving penalty.
Looks like the psychic bonuses + auto hit wins out in the end.
Well the one thing crimson hunter has over the hemlock is it’s range.
Sitting back at range, especially as alaitoc, should keep it as -2 to be hit from return fire.
The hemlock needs to get relatively close meaning most guns are brought to bear and there are short range threats such as meltas or wraithguard dscythe for example that then can have a crack that should never threaten a crimson hunter.
The hemlock is the better option, but the hunter does have its good points and the cheaper price make it an attractive option.
The Crimson Hunter makes the Ravager look like a joke - for +5 points, it gains a pulse laser in place of one lance, the Sky Hunters ability, and marginally better survivablity. Ravagers are the top performing unit for the Dark Eldar right now. So I would say don't underestimate the Hunter.
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I wrote a 2000 list today with the new codex, and then decided to see what that same army would have cost using the index. 2420 That's pretty nuts. We can't complain too much.
drakerocket wrote: I'm pretty sure what you can do is make a ynnari detachment with yvraine as the warlord, make it something like a supreme command with a unit of wraithguard or 3 units of wraithguard and yvraine, all with SfD and then make the rest of your army in a different detachment, opt out of ynnari for that detachment, and use all of the CW stuff for them. Since your wraithguard don't benefit as much as some other units from CW stuff, but benefit a lot from SfD, you get your ynnari benefits and fluff while the rest of your army works off of CW and gets all the fun toys there. The only thing you end up having to lose out on is that yvraine gets a generic warlord trait.
I think it is a pretty fair set up, all things considered. Because, let's be real, SfD is better than battlefocus, so something has to give for ynnari to not just be better.
I don't know, I feel restrincting SfD to a handful of units somehow negates the point of fielding Ynnari altogether. Yet, it appears to be one of the two only ways of getting best of both worlds (Ynnari and CWE). The other option is to field a minimun CWE detachment for stratagem unlocking and have the main detachment be Ynnari and bennefit from SfD and stratagems (but not CWE traits and the other goodies).
I still feel bad picking some units to not bennefit from the Ynnari rules, but one could do Autarch (for rerolls and CP regeneration) + 2 warlocks plus Wraithknight (who doesn't benefit from SfD) with Iyanden for the pure CWE detachment, and not lose a lot in the process. Mmmm, it doesn't sound that bad...
Khaine wrote: The Crimson Hunter makes the Ravager look like a joke - for +5 points, it gains a pulse laser in place of one lance, the Sky Hunters ability, and marginally better survivablity. Ravagers are the top performing unit for the Dark Eldar right now. So I would say don't underestimate the Hunter.
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I wrote a 2000 list today with the new codex, and then decided to see what that same army would have cost using the index. 2420 That's pretty nuts. We can't complain too much.
Ravager are not Flyer, so they can claim objectives, line breaker and stay on the board till end game, thats the benefit for them, but i see what you mean, they are a better Ravager in the new codex for sure if you just want long range 16"+ movement AT.
Kdash wrote: Ok, so, i've made a list of all the points and unit changes that i've seen so far from reviews. I may have missed some things/got them slightly wrong, due to some of the pages on youtube being a bit blurry or shiny.
Some things to note! Random Sunburst grenades are now gone, and plasma grenades are back! (same profile). Autarchs can no longer take Banshee masks or Mandiblasters like before. Only the Autarch with wings has Mandiblasters as a fixed option.
All changes are for the basic loadout listed against the datasheet vs the same cost from the index.
HQs.
• Eldrad: -30 points.
• Yriel: -4 points.
• Avatar: no change.
• Asurman : no change.
• Baharroth: -10 points. Sword now +1 str and -3 ap.
• Fuegan: -10 points. Melta bomb range now 4”.
• Jain Zar: -6 points. Sword +2 str. Cry of Unending War and Banshee Mask swapped round. Acrobatic can now advance and charge with the +3” to both.
• Karandras: -18 points.
• Maugan Ra: -19 points.
• Illic: -8 points. Sniper now fixed 3 dmg and still does mortal wounds on a 6.
• Autarch: +6 points. Fixed Weapon Loadout. Now has a Star Glaive and grenades only.
• Autarch Wings: no change. Fixed loadout. Fusion Pistol, power sword, mandiblasters.
• Autarch on Bike: -4 points. Can change power sword for laser lance or fusion gun. No other options.
• Farseer: -15 points (when using Singing Spear). -13 for witchblade.
• Farseer Bike: -38 points (when using Singing Spear). -13 for witchblade.
• Warlock Con: -14 points.
• Bike Con: -44 points.
• Warlock: -2 points.
• Warlock Bike: -17 points.
• Spiritseer: -21 points.
Troops.
• Guardians: No change.
• Storm G: No change.
• Rangers : -40 points.
• Dire Avengers: -25 points. (Exarch Weapons no changes).
Elite.
• Banshees: -15 points. Executioner -9 points, +1 str and no penalty to hit. Mirrorswords -1point. No more Triskele option.
• Scorpions: -25 points. Claw -8 points, no penalty to hit. Biting Blade -4 points. No Chainsabre option.
• Fire Dragons: No change. Fire Pike – 2 points.
• Wraithguard: No change. T6, now 1d6 roll per shot instead of 1d6 for all.
• Wraithblade: No change. Axe shield combo -35 points.
Fast Attack.
• Windriders: -21 points.
• Hawks: -20 points. Lasblaster now assault 4. No Sunrifle option.
• Spiders: -20 points. Unit can now Deepstrike, but have to roll 2d6 and on double 1, 1 model dies. No Spinneret rifle option.
• Spears: -36 points. Star lance -2 points. Paragon blade -4 points.
• Vyper: -21 points. Now has the Biker keyword.
Heavy.
• Reapers: -27 points. Tempest launcher -11 points.
• Support Battery: -47 points. Now 5 wounds. Vibro +10 points, d3 shots, flat 2 damage. If a unit is damaged by it, they can’t advance unless they can fly. Dcannon -5 points. Str 12, does not need LoS. Shadow Weaver +4 points.
• Falcon: -56 points.
• Fire Prism: -8 points. Now has the "grinding advance" style rule.
• Spinner: -25 points.
• Walkers: -17 points. Can now outflank.
• Wraithlord: No change. Now T8 and 4 attacks.
Transport.
• Serpent: -12 points.
Flyer.
• Hunter: -23 points.
• Exarch: -48 points.
• Hemlock: -11 points. Weapon str 12. Mindshock pod now -2Ld. Can only cast the 2nd power in each Runes of Battle entry.
LoW.
• Wraithknight: No Change. Sword + shield combo -35 points. Wraithcannons now str 16. Suncannon flat 2 dmg.
Vehicle Equipment.
• No changes to any pieces of equipment.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I know a lot of people have been hating on the Warlock due to its 2 wounds, but, I really think a couple of jetbike warlocks might have a fixed place in my army going forward. Being able to cast Protect and Conceal via a very mobile platform is going to be useful. Add in Doom and probably Executioner and things could get nasty. Could take Fortune instead of Executioner, but the idea would be to run them with some Shining Spears to give them a 2+/3++ 16” move bubblewrap.
Khaine wrote: The Autarch only gains the CP regeneration ability if he is your warlord, meaning its impossible for the Ynarri to benefit from it unfortunately.
Of course, I knew I was missing something that detail doesn't ruin my plan, though. He was basically in to give the rerolls to the Wraithknight. That was just icing on the (consolation price) cake
I am a bit saddened to see so many options go away for the Eldar(Exarch weapons, all the autarch setups), but glad to see they are aggressively making the army more flexible in regards to playstyle.
sennacherib wrote: Was hoping to see a little more balance.
Likely going to have to turn down eldar games.
[MOD EDIT - - RULE #1 -- Alpharius]
Alaitoc is meta defining. If someone sets up a properly made alaitoc army, I’ll just pack up. An entire army with minis 2 to hit is going to force the meta to revolve around it. It’s insane. Your army has to drop in within 12 or you’ll just not win ever
Well, the same could easily be said for an army that turns up with 120 conscripts. And guess what, it -was- meta defining. Still is.
A lot of the Eldar units you're worried about only have a 12-18" range on weapons, so they'll be moving close anyway. And they're so fragile if you get in range you can just shoot them off the board.
You're Chaos, so you can drop in Obliterators within 12" and shoot a unit off the board each turn. Or use your own infiltration stratagem to put berserkers in charge range, and remove another unit off the table each turn. And all your units also get -1 to hit.
Alaitoc is probably the best of the traits, but to get -2 on every unit you'd have to bring a lot of warlocks or spiritseers, now that conceal isn't an aura but is instead just a single unit buff.
Conscripts just got nerfed hard.
Alaitoc is legitimately in the running to be the best army on the back of eldar buffs. And when we say best, this isn't a good thing considering the candidates for best army involve things like 12 malefic lords and 2 primarchs.
You have the Eldar codex? What basis you got for making that assertion?
And I can't see how Conscripts would be going anywhere. Because AM and Imperial soup players have to spend 1 CP on Pietrov's MK45? Or because you can't feasibly run 150+ of them anymore and keep all of them immune? Negative.
But I'm curious to seeing this tier 1 Eldar army list. If they have an answer to deep striking Scions / Elysians (so they got bubblewrap) while also not being vulnerable to Eversors and Culexus Assassins (superb and I mean amazing in close combat or ridiculous overwatch), while also being able to deal with enemy bubble wrap and heavy tanks, yeah they might be the most powerful army ever created. But I can't see that happening. You might be able to make a unit that is hard to hit, or an army that's relatively hard to hit, but the Imperial soup has answers to every meta shift.
. As a rule of thumb, percentage points add, while percent multiply. Mind you, newspapers get this wrong all the time too.
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