DarknessEternal wrote: Start winning some games with them. Describe those games. Convince people with your data.
Smaller 500pt games played against AM Infantry lists with flames, mortars and lascannons being the special weapons, lasguns or anything without an AP, even flames with auto hits is going struggle to remove even a squad of 5 from cover. I was absorbing fire from 3 or 4 infantry squads a turn and lost on at most Scorpion a turn. Not an optimal guard list but it did its job and won on the objective one game and lost on another.
This can be replicated in bigger games by positioning the Scorpions well and providing better targets for the enemies special weapons to fire on.
DarknessEternal wrote: Start winning some games with them. Describe those games. Convince people with your data.
Smaller 500pt games played against AM Infantry lists with flames, mortars and lascannons being the special weapons, lasguns or anything without an AP, even flames with auto hits is going struggle to remove even a squad of 5 from cover. I was absorbing fire from 3 or 4 infantry squads a turn and lost on at most Scorpion a turn. Not an optimal guard list but it did its job and won on the objective one game and lost on another.
This can be replicated in bigger games by positioning the Scorpions well and providing better targets for the enemies special weapons to fire on.
I can second the effectiveness of striking scorpions. Soulburst makes them even more viable. And korlandril is right about sticking them in or near some cover. They can tear units up with that +1 to hit, and they have great synergy with d-scythe guard and fire dragons. They make a really good clean up unit to finish off enemy units and gain board control.
zeedneti wrote: Remember Ynnari will not have Opsec when the New book Chapter Review , is released - remember that when your list building !
We don't know for sure how ObjSec is being implemented in 8th. The SM version gives it to Troops in Space Marine Detachments in a Battleforged army. Eldar might get it for any Aeldari detachment in our Codex. As for Chapter Approved, we don't know what it will say yet but the way the announcement was worded made it seem like all Troops in Battle Forged armies would get.
GreaterGood? wrote: Has anyone had any luck against the power astra militarum list? Dropping plasma scions, hidden artillery, and all the conscripts?
Thats the hardest matchup for Aeldari right now. I tried everything with no success. If the IG adds Celestine to the mix you have absolutely no chance.
zeedneti wrote: Remember Ynnari will not have Opsec when the New book Chapter Review , is released - remember that when your list building !
We don't know for sure how ObjSec is being implemented in 8th. The SM version gives it to Troops in Space Marine Detachments in a Battleforged army. Eldar might get it for any Aeldari detachment in our Codex. As for Chapter Approved, we don't know what it will say yet but the way the announcement was worded made it seem like all Troops in Battle Forged armies would get.
Let's wait and see before jumping to conclusions.
ObjSec currently applies to all Troops choices per the latest FAQ/Chapter Approved.
Is there a reason it wouldn't apply to Ynnari?
That said, most people currently don't take too many troops - right? Maybe this'll lend a little weight to taking a unit or two, as a backup objective contestor.
FLG put up a list of what factions get Obsec which is apparently based on what will be in the Chapter Approved book. A pure Craftworld (Asurani) faction Keyword detatchment gets it but if you add a Ynnari HQ they don't have the Asurani keyword so you lose Obsec.
You can't be Ynnari without one of the Ynnari Characters.
However there are ways around it. My current list is Ynnari and has a Battalion detachment and a Vanguard Detachment. By making Yvraine the HQ for the Vanguard, that detachment does not get Obsec, but it has no troops in it so it doesn't matter. My troops are all in the battalion detachment with a farseer and autarch as the HQs so get to be Obsec. Everything is still Ynnari as Yvraine is the warlord.
Example of the list:
Spoiler:
Vanguard Detatchment:
Yvraine (warlord)
5x Fire Dragons
5x Fire Dragons
5x Flamer Wraithguard
Wave Serpent
Wave Serpent
Battalion Detacment:
Farseer
Autarch Skyrunner
5x Dire Avengers
5x Dire Avengers
10x Dire Avengers
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: FLG put up a list of what factions get Obsec which is apparently based on what will be in the Chapter Approved book. A pure Craftworld (Asurani) faction Keyword detatchment gets it but if you add a Ynnari HQ they don't have the Asurani keyword so you lose Obsec.
You can't be Ynnari without one of the Ynnari Characters.
However there are ways around it. My current list is Ynnari and has a Battalion detachment and a Vanguard Detachment. By making Yvraine the HQ for the Vanguard, that detachment does not get Obsec, but it has no troops in it so it doesn't matter. My troops are all in the battalion detachment with a farseer and autarch as the HQs so get to be Obsec. Everything is still Ynnari as Yvraine is the warlord.
Example of the list:
Spoiler:
Vanguard Detatchment:
Yvraine (warlord)
5x Fire Dragons
5x Fire Dragons
5x Flamer Wraithguard
Wave Serpent
Wave Serpent
Battalion Detacment:
Farseer
Autarch Skyrunner
5x Dire Avengers
5x Dire Avengers
10x Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent
Wave Serpent
Hemlock Wraithfighter
It's all Ynnari and all the troops have Obsec.
Does this work?
I thought you had to have a Ynnari as an HQ in the detachment for it to become Ynnari.. so detachment based not army based.
GreaterGood? wrote: Has anyone had any luck against the power astra militarum list? Dropping plasma scions, hidden artillery, and all the conscripts?
Hmm, Wave Serpents are a good start against the Plasma Scions since the field basically makes overcharging worthless.
Striking Scorpions popping up all over the place to threaten artillery units and cowering Commisars seem like a good idea.
Doom and lots of Guardian Defenders are probably the best I can suggest as they will shred conscripts faster than Conscripts can damage them but a battle of attrition is not exactly a great plan for Eldar.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: FLG put up a list of what factions get Obsec which is apparently based on what will be in the Chapter Approved book. A pure Craftworld (Asurani) faction Keyword detatchment gets it but if you add a Ynnari HQ they don't have the Asurani keyword so you lose Obsec.
You can't be Ynnari without one of the Ynnari Characters.
However there are ways around it. My current list is Ynnari and has a Battalion detachment and a Vanguard Detachment. By making Yvraine the HQ for the Vanguard, that detachment does not get Obsec, but it has no troops in it so it doesn't matter. My troops are all in the battalion detachment with a farseer and autarch as the HQs so get to be Obsec. Everything is still Ynnari as Yvraine is the warlord.
Example of the list:
Spoiler:
Vanguard Detatchment:
Yvraine (warlord)
5x Fire Dragons
5x Fire Dragons
5x Flamer Wraithguard
Wave Serpent
Wave Serpent
Battalion Detacment:
Farseer
Autarch Skyrunner
5x Dire Avengers
5x Dire Avengers
10x Dire Avengers
Wave Serpent
Wave Serpent
Hemlock Wraithfighter
It's all Ynnari and all the troops have Obsec.
Does this work?
I thought you had to have a Ynnari as an HQ in the detachment for it to become Ynnari.. so detachment based not army based.
Yes this works. You have to have a Ynnari Warlord (Not HQ) to be a Ynnari army. It's army based not detachment based. Otherwise you could only ever field one Ynnari detachment as there is only one Warlord.
The Ynnari faction Keyword is not on the list of faction keywords that provide Obsec, but Asuryani is, so don't put your troops in the same detachment as Yvraine/Yncarne/The other bloke you will never take.
GreaterGood? wrote: Has anyone had any luck against the power astra militarum list? Dropping plasma scions, hidden artillery, and all the conscripts?
Hmm, Wave Serpents are a good start against the Plasma Scions since the field basically makes overcharging worthless.
Striking Scorpions popping up all over the place to threaten artillery units and cowering Commisars seem like a good idea.
Doom and lots of Guardian Defenders are probably the best I can suggest as they will shred conscripts faster than Conscripts can damage them but a battle of attrition is not exactly a great plan for Eldar.
There is sadly no efficient way to kill conscripts.
If the Guard player has enough to bubble wrap his artillery, and positions them so that deepstriking units can't sneak in, and Fly units can't jump over, it's a very tough fight.
Wave Serpents that advance with vectored engines (-1 to hit and -1 damage) are very resistant to both plasma Scions and most artillery (they tend to do D3 damage I think) but anything that disembarks is going to do very little to the conscripts and get wiped out by the Scions/artillery.
Anything that's not an a Wave Serpent or a Hemlock with Conceal is going to lose horribly in a firefight with a good IG list- you might do OK if you go first with a lot of ranged anti-tank.
So what to do? Well, assuming you have a list with a lot of serpents there are a few things you can try:
- Assassinate the Commissar- Rangers and Illic might work if you have them but most lists don't. Failing that you need the guard player to brain fart and leave enough space around the Commissar for you to land a Hemlock or a Autarch Skyrunner next to him. The Autarch has a better chance due to being smaller and being able to wiggle in with some cheeky assault and pile in moves, but he will need a double move from Yvraine casting WotP, which would require her to disembark and be screened by Serpents. A lot needs to go right for you here lol.
- Assault the Conscripts with the serpents- If the Conscripts are deployed in a tight bubble wrap to prevent anything landing behind them, a mass Serpent assault might not leave them enough room to fall back.
Both of these are avoided by a clever Guard player not leaving any space behind the screen, and spacing the models in the screen out enough that there is room to fall back by bunching up.
Things that don't require the Guard player to slip up:
-Grab Objectives- If the IG are castled up and you're playing a mission with progressive scoring then the Wave Serpents may survive long enough to score a load of points. Scions are pretty good at grabbing objectives, if they don't blow themselves up overcharging at serpents, though.
-Get your Psykers out and try and do some damage with the serpent weapons- A Farseer and/or Yvraine could stand in the middle of the board being screened from shooting and deepstrikers by Serpents. Guide, Doom and Ancestors grace can buff the Serpents shooting (assuming they have Shuri-cannons so they can advance and fire), and you might be able to snipe a Commissar with Gaze of Ynnead.
That's all I can think of and it doesn't seem enough. Mostly it requires the Eldar to play flawlessly and the Guard to play badly.
GreaterGood? wrote: Do you actually think so? hordes of guardians? I've been hearing most people succeeding with wave serpent spam, and wraiths.
That's how I have been playing so far and it works very well. Add a sprinkling of Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers, a Hemlock for air superiority and a Farseer for some psychic support and you are good to go.
It could get boring as it doesn't leave much variety once you get to 2000 points. Also I think it might struggle against horde armies (particularly conscript spam). I have mostly played against Marines so far where the above list goes though power armour like vindaloo through a short Granny.
The solution to Conscripts in particular is to snipe the Commisars with Word of the Phoenix during the Psychic phase. The restriction on targeting characters only applies during the Shooting Phase. This was confirmed in one of the FAQs (Stepping Into a New Edition) on the GW Community page. Yvraine standing next to a set of Reapers can tear apart anything that doesn't have a great invulnerable save. If you're afraid that your opponent will get wise to this and try to hide their commisar fully outside line of site you can take a Reaper Launcher on the Dark Reaper Exarch which can ignore LoS.
This doesn't solve Boyz or Brimstones specifically, but they don't seem to be as big of an issue as Guard blobs.
Without an Officer to give orders the Conscript unit is far less dangerous (so no more FRFRRF, or extra run moves) and will not get the order to withdraw from combat and be able to shot if you have charged them with a Serpent.
No Commissar, then no 1 wound on the break test and Conscripts start to melt away.
A large unit of Eldar Rangers in cover can remove one or the other (Officer or Commissar) fairly quickly and when they do most Guard players will try and get rid of those Rangers as quickly as they can...which often means that the Conscripts are drawn with them and away from what they were defending. I would target the Junior Officer if given a choice, as removing the Orders is the quickest way to reduce a Conscript unit's effectiveness.
I'm a little late here but I also use Scorpions - I've used them in every game so far and it was difficult at first.
Like others have said: Putting them in cover is the best option. I use 10 to sit on an objective, and sometimes I won't even place them on the board until late game. By then they can be relied upon to hold it and kill most of the things that come too close.
They're not brilliant or flashy, but they are a solid choice and they do win me games.
I'm not super impressed by any of our troops choices, has anyone tried using the Corsairs troops from the Forgeworld index? seems like guardians, but with more special weapons.
GreaterGood? wrote: I'm not super impressed by any of our troops choices, has anyone tried using the Corsairs troops from the Forgeworld index? seems like guardians, but with more special weapons.
They have to pay 2 points for their pistols and so end up being stupidly expensive, plus they have no transport options.
Basic_ wrote: The solution to Conscripts in particular is to snipe the Commisars with Word of the Phoenix during the Psychic phase. The restriction on targeting characters only applies during the Shooting Phase. This was confirmed in one of the FAQs (Stepping Into a New Edition) on the GW Community page. Yvraine standing next to a set of Reapers can tear apart anything that doesn't have a great invulnerable save. If you're afraid that your opponent will get wise to this and try to hide their commisar fully outside line of site you can take a Reaper Launcher on the Dark Reaper Exarch which can ignore LoS.
This doesn't solve Boyz or Brimstones specifically, but they don't seem to be as big of an issue as Guard blobs.
Based on the way that Word of the Phoenix and soulburst is worded, I don't believe you can target characters.
As the units may shoot as if it were the shooting phase, which means the same restrictions would apply.
Please look at the Word of the Phoenix power as well as the Soulburst ability.
How are people feeling about squadrons of Forge World Hornets? I've played a couple of matches using them and feel that they're rather effective targets for buffs.
How do they stack up to units with similar roles, such as Vypers?
Thus far ive only been using the Hornet Pulse weapons, and feel satisfied with their performance against MEQ's and vehicles. Sadly I havent gotten the chance to try them against their preffered target, TEQ's.
Sticking Vector Engines on Hornets with Shuricannons would be some relatively cheap, tough units to take down. Hornets rule of Lightning Assault with Vector Engines gives the enemy a -2 modifier To Hit if the Hornets advance.
Basic_ wrote: The solution to Conscripts in particular is to snipe the Commisars with Word of the Phoenix during the Psychic phase. The restriction on targeting characters only applies during the Shooting Phase. This was confirmed in one of the FAQs (Stepping Into a New Edition) on the GW Community page. Yvraine standing next to a set of Reapers can tear apart anything that doesn't have a great invulnerable save. If you're afraid that your opponent will get wise to this and try to hide their commisar fully outside line of site you can take a Reaper Launcher on the Dark Reaper Exarch which can ignore LoS.
This doesn't solve Boyz or Brimstones specifically, but they don't seem to be as big of an issue as Guard blobs.
Could you please post a link to the above mentioned FAQs? Can't find it anywhere.
Without an Officer to give orders the Conscript unit is far less dangerous (so no more FRFRRF, or extra run moves) and will not get the order to withdraw from combat and be able to shot if you have charged them with a Serpent.
No Commissar, then no 1 wound on the break test and Conscripts start to melt away.
A large unit of Eldar Rangers in cover can remove one or the other (Officer or Commissar) fairly quickly and when they do most Guard players will try and get rid of those Rangers as quickly as they can...which often means that the Conscripts are drawn with them and away from what they were defending. I would target the Junior Officer if given a choice, as removing the Orders is the quickest way to reduce a Conscript unit's effectiveness.
My two cents,
CB
I have tryed this. I dropped 5 rangers + Ilic Nightspear in a 2000pt list for whooping 183 pts in total (100 rangers + 83 Illic). They did the job quite well, killed Commissar+ Commander in 2 turns. But they were a primary target for all the duration of the match, and were dead by turn 3.
A single 5-man unit of rangers won't have enough power to kill all officers and will die as flyes.
I have tryed this. I dropped 5 rangers + Ilic Nightspear in a 2000pt list for whooping 183 pts in total (100 rangers + 83 Illic). They did the job quite well, killed Commissar+ Commander in 2 turns. But they were a primary target for all the duration of the match, and were dead by turn 3.
A single 5-man unit of rangers won't have enough power to kill all officers and will die as flyes.
You have achieved the object...
Once the Commissar is dead the Conscripts will lose models to moral checks and will be losing extra models from your fire.
More importantly, once the Officer is dead no more orders (Conscripts cannot get a Vox)...which makes Conscripts a large mass that if charged by a Wave Serpent or something with good armor saves stuck unless they withdraw (and now cannot fire without orders) and get charged again the next turn. I have always targeted the Officers first to remove orders, as Guard players doing Conscript spam tend to have two Conscript units supported by a single Senior Officer (as a unit can only receive one order per turn).
Hopefully your Rangers were in cover, 24+ inches away, and drew allot of attention and fire from the Guard players long range weapons and thus not shooting at your other units that would have otherwise been taking that fire.
You are entirely correct that Rangers are fragile...but it is one of the few options Eldar have to make Conscripts the weak and cowardly troop choice they really are.
Basic_ wrote: The solution to Conscripts in particular is to snipe the Commisars with Word of the Phoenix during the Psychic phase. The restriction on targeting characters only applies during the Shooting Phase. This was confirmed in one of the FAQs (Stepping Into a New Edition) on the GW Community page. Yvraine standing next to a set of Reapers can tear apart anything that doesn't have a great invulnerable save. If you're afraid that your opponent will get wise to this and try to hide their commisar fully outside line of site you can take a Reaper Launcher on the Dark Reaper Exarch which can ignore LoS.
This doesn't solve Boyz or Brimstones specifically, but they don't seem to be as big of an issue as Guard blobs.
Could you please post a link to the above mentioned FAQs? Can't find it anywhere.
FAQ Page The bottom PDF is called Stepping Into A New Edition. I don't know why it isn't labeled as an FAQ, but it's the exact same format as one.
The pertinent passage:
Q: When can I target an enemy Character that has a Wounds characteristic of less than 10?
A: Such a Character can only be targeted in the Shooting phase if it is the nearest visible model to the firing model. You can target enemy Characters without restriction in the Psychic phase*, Charge phase, Fight phase, etc. You may also make shooting attacks at enemy Characters which occur outside the Shooting phase (i.e. when resolving overwatch in the Charge phase).
People can interpret that and dissect the semantics if they wish.
Basic_ wrote: The solution to Conscripts in particular is to snipe the Commisars with Word of the Phoenix during the Psychic phase. The restriction on targeting characters only applies during the Shooting Phase. This was confirmed in one of the FAQs (Stepping Into a New Edition) on the GW Community page. Yvraine standing next to a set of Reapers can tear apart anything that doesn't have a great invulnerable save. If you're afraid that your opponent will get wise to this and try to hide their commisar fully outside line of site you can take a Reaper Launcher on the Dark Reaper Exarch which can ignore LoS.
This doesn't solve Boyz or Brimstones specifically, but they don't seem to be as big of an issue as Guard blobs.
Could you please post a link to the above mentioned FAQs? Can't find it anywhere.
FAQ Page The bottom PDF is called Stepping Into A New Edition. I don't know why it isn't labeled as an FAQ, but it's the exact same format as one.
The pertinent passage:
Q: When can I target an enemy Character that has a Wounds characteristic of less than 10?
A: Such a Character can only be targeted in the Shooting phase if it is the nearest visible model to the firing model. You can target enemy Characters without restriction in the Psychic phase*, Charge phase, Fight phase, etc. You may also make shooting attacks at enemy Characters which occur outside the Shooting phase (i.e. when resolving overwatch in the Charge phase).
People can interpret that and dissect the semantics if they wish.
From the Ynnari "strenght from death" rule:
"-The unit can shoot as if it were your Shooting phase, even if it Advanced or Fell Back this turn."
So, if word of the phoenix psychic power lets you make a single Strenght from Death action, and that action is shooting, then it will be "as if it was your shooting phase".
I think your interpretation is quite captious. (And I'm an Ynnari player)
Grizzyzz wrote: While we are on the subject of soul burst. One of the options is to "attempt to manifest a psychic power, as if it was the psychic phase".
Say you cast Doom in your psychic phase. and now its the assault phase something dies and you decide to cast a power.
May you cast Doom again? Or does this follow the same restriction as your current turns psychic phase?
"Psychic Focus" limits you to one attempt at a power per turn, not per psychic phase. Though you can get extra casts this way in your opponent's turn, which is particularly nice with Word of the Phoenix.
GreaterGood? wrote: I'm not super impressed by any of our troops choices, has anyone tried using the Corsairs troops from the Forgeworld index? seems like guardians, but with more special weapons.
I've used them a couple of games as a screening unit. With shard carbines they are 110 for 10 which puts out 30 shots on overwatch and if they can kill one enemy then they can retreat 3. Handy for keeping first turn charges out of reach.
I'm considering potentially starting an Eldar army, so 2 questions for you
1): what's the play style of eldar? Especially with regards to this edition.
2): how are Eldar fairing these days?
Eldar are above the curve - and they can be played in a lot of ways. unfortunately the index has atrocious internal balance.
I feel like once they get a codex a lot of things will change. So I would hold off or just get things you know youll want to include regardless of how good they are.
Grizzyzz wrote: While we are on the subject of soul burst. One of the options is to "attempt to manifest a psychic power, as if it was the psychic phase".
Say you cast Doom in your psychic phase. and now its the assault phase something dies and you decide to cast a power.
May you cast Doom again? Or does this follow the same restriction as your current turns psychic phase?
"Psychic Focus" limits you to one attempt at a power per turn, not per psychic phase. Though you can get extra casts this way in your opponent's turn, which is particularly nice with Word of the Phoenix.
I'm considering potentially starting an Eldar army, so 2 questions for you
1): what's the play style of eldar? Especially with regards to this edition.
2): how are Eldar fairing these days?
Eldar are above the curve - and they can be played in a lot of ways. unfortunately the index has atrocious internal balance.
I feel like once they get a codex a lot of things will change. So I would hold off or just get things you know youll want to include regardless of how good they are.
Major internal balance. But that is also a result of how the initial meta has turned out...
Flyers are innately strong still, dark reapers dont care.. always hit on 3s
Gun lines are strong... dark reapers dont care.. 48" range
Hmm but how do i get more hits.. autarch.. reroll 1s
Hmm we are elite, how do we deal enough damage... Yvraine, WoP.. dark reapers..
Instant recipe for success... it is really a shame. And eldar are not alone in certain list builds that are just Stronger than anything else you can do.
Basic_ wrote: The solution to Conscripts in particular is to snipe the Commisars with Word of the Phoenix during the Psychic phase. The restriction on targeting characters only applies during the Shooting Phase. This was confirmed in one of the FAQs (Stepping Into a New Edition) on the GW Community page. Yvraine standing next to a set of Reapers can tear apart anything that doesn't have a great invulnerable save. If you're afraid that your opponent will get wise to this and try to hide their commisar fully outside line of site you can take a Reaper Launcher on the Dark Reaper Exarch which can ignore LoS.
This doesn't solve Boyz or Brimstones specifically, but they don't seem to be as big of an issue as Guard blobs.
Could you please post a link to the above mentioned FAQs? Can't find it anywhere.
FAQ Page The bottom PDF is called Stepping Into A New Edition. I don't know why it isn't labeled as an FAQ, but it's the exact same format as one.
The pertinent passage:
Q: When can I target an enemy Character that has a Wounds characteristic of less than 10?
A: Such a Character can only be targeted in the Shooting phase if it is the nearest visible model to the firing model. You can target enemy Characters without restriction in the Psychic phase*, Charge phase, Fight phase, etc. You may also make shooting attacks at enemy Characters which occur outside the Shooting phase (i.e. when resolving overwatch in the Charge phase).
People can interpret that and dissect the semantics if they wish.
From the Ynnari "strenght from death" rule:
"-The unit can shoot as if it were your Shooting phase, even if it Advanced or Fell Back this turn."
So, if word of the phoenix psychic power lets you make a single Strenght from Death action, and that action is shooting, then it will be "as if it was your shooting phase".
I think your interpretation is quite captious. (And I'm an Ynnari player)
Hmm this is interesting. I do believe you cannot target characters still. My question though is what if you used a reroll stratagem to reroll a miss?
So lets say Yvraine cast WoTP on Unit X.
Unit X decides to shoot - Missed - Used reroll stratagem
Can Yvraine still use the reroll stratagem in the psychic phase that turn?
Can you still use the reroll stratagem in the shooting phase that turn?
So I'm going to be integrating Craftworld units into my DE list to better handle anti-infantry (poison just isn't cutting it, can't get the amount of firepower needed to see results there). Possibly even going Ynnari. What are the best GEQ and MEQ killers in the Eldar list? My first thought is ShuriCannon spam - Walkers, Vypers, and Wave Serpents come to mind. Bikes, too, but they're so fragile. Any other good options I'm missing?
How are Warp Spiders? As Ynnari, I'm wondering if a squad of 10 + Exarch can warp in, wipe a squad, and soulburst out. With psychic support it seems plausible, especially against like Pathfinder squads.
I feel like almost all of our shooting options are decent against MEQ (though Dark Reapers are the obvious winners), whereas almost nothing is particularly efficient vs. GEQ... so CWE isn't going to solve that problem for you.
Still, probably the best we have for GEQ is Shuri Wave Serpents, which puts out almost as much firepower as far more expensive options, while being the most durable tank in the codex, and also the cheapest, and also the biggest transport, because our codex has no internal balance
Yeah, the wave serpent out performs the falcon in every way, costs less, has more Wounds, special rules, double the transport capacity, and doesn't consume a heavy support slot. How can this be?
Chippen wrote: How are Warp Spiders? As Ynnari, I'm wondering if a squad of 10 + Exarch can warp in, wipe a squad, and soulburst out. With psychic support it seems plausible, especially against like Pathfinder squads.
I like warp spiders as -1 to hit plus -1 to hit from conceal and 2+ save in cover can survive a chunk of shooting.
Their warp move is great as well.
Str 6 isn't as good as it used to be at killing t4 tho and as was stated they will struggle to kill anything on their own.
Backed up with doom they are better tho. I use them to finish off squads that have been weakened by other targets to warp in and soulburst away 4d6+7. Or punishing an opponent for killing a more threatening nearby target propelling them into their backfield.
The unfortunate thing for them is a shadow spectre squad is 6 points more expensive. For inbuilt -1 to hit, potentially more Str 6 shots with always ap-3 and alternative heavy flamer mode.
Mezmorki wrote: Yeah, the wave serpent out performs the falcon in every way, costs less, has more Wounds, special rules, double the transport capacity, and doesn't consume a heavy support slot. How can this be?
Welcome to "lots of play-testing". However even though the Wave Serpent is better, it is still not cheap and eats up a lot of space in an army list. I have been including my two in each game and working on a third because for tanks there is no better option. Most factions seem to have lots of longer ranged firepower and if they get the first turn I want my toughness 3 troops alive at the end of it.
1): what's the play style of eldar? Especially with regards to this edition.
2): how are Eldar fairing these days?
Mech Eldar backed up by flyers (particularly the dreaded Hemlock seems the strongest starting point in 8th). Good fillings for the Wave Serpents include Wraithguard and Wraithblades of all flavours, Fire Dragons and Reapers. Vanguard Detachments are your friends.
Anyone else really looking forward to the codex? I am utterly bored with Eldar currently. I find most our units are pretty boring. We don't have much variety in what roles are units fill and the index in total feels bland.
I love my eldar, i hope this changes for the better.
Grizzyzz wrote: Anyone else really looking forward to the codex? I am utterly bored with Eldar currently. I find most our units are pretty boring. We don't have much variety in what roles are units fill and the index in total feels bland.
I love my eldar, i hope this changes for the better.
I wouldn't say that I am bored, per se, but I have lost a good bit of drive to keep playing.
This is particularly sad because of how excited I cam overall for this edition.
But for me there is a combination of information overload (everything being new, etc) that makes it hard for me to grasp the wider meta of all the armies and a general lack of time allowing me to play. I have literally only played 3 games of 8th so far, all of them pretty brutal loses against Imperials.
I feel like I am just waiting for the codex to drop to with all the <Craftworld> tactics, stratagems, psychic powers and traits. I just don't see my army functioning without some help.
I like Hemlocks, Serpents and Wratihguard, but I'd like to not be forced to play exclusively those units just to keep my head above water. My real passion is for jetbikes and they need help right now to be competitive.
Grizzyzz wrote: Anyone else really looking forward to the codex? I am utterly bored with Eldar currently. I find most our units are pretty boring. We don't have much variety in what roles are units fill and the index in total feels bland.
I love my eldar, i hope this changes for the better.
There is a lot of variety, but not in the way I think you want it. CWE have been and are built around the idea of specialization - units are good at one thing. The point is to bring enough variety of units that you cover the bases. Drukhari are the same way.
From a competitive standpoint, it can be rough to stick to one Aeldari faction since not every unit is super effective or efficient at the thing it's meant to do.
Grizzyzz wrote: Anyone else really looking forward to the codex? I am utterly bored with Eldar currently. I find most our units are pretty boring. We don't have much variety in what roles are units fill and the index in total feels bland.
I love my eldar, i hope this changes for the better.
I wouldn't say that I am bored, per se, but I have lost a good bit of drive to keep playing.
This is particularly sad because of how excited I cam overall for this edition.
But for me there is a combination of information overload (everything being new, etc) that makes it hard for me to grasp the wider meta of all the armies and a general lack of time allowing me to play. I have literally only played 3 games of 8th so far, all of them pretty brutal loses against Imperials.
I feel like I am just waiting for the codex to drop to with all the <Craftworld> tactics, stratagems, psychic powers and traits. I just don't see my army functioning without some help.
I like Hemlocks, Serpents and Wratihguard, but I'd like to not be forced to play exclusively those units just to keep my head above water. My real passion is for jetbikes and they need help right now to be competitive.
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I am looking forward to the codex for craftworld tactics and new ways to spend CP's and maybe some balancing in terms of points, notably DA's.
I don't think our units are uninteresting. If you've been playing really competitive Imperial lists then you have to also take competitive list with competitive units to match which has always been the case unfortunately. I like that we are more balanced than we were in 7th because I don't have to deliberately nerf my list to have a fair game with someone. Generally we are pretty strong still.
It would be nice if jetbikes just became troops again and kept all their other nerfs. I think that would be fair and with repriced DA's we would have a troop section with a lot of variety.
I'm undefeated with eldar and haven't used a wave serpent yet.
I have found a solid core of guardians with shadow spectres, warp spiders, shining spears and hemlocks as the mobile element has proven effective. With psychic support giving the edge when needed.
Wave serpents are definitely great but not taking them is by no means an auto loss.
Wyldcarde wrote: I'm undefeated with eldar and haven't used a wave serpent yet.
I have found a solid core of guardians with shadow spectres, warp spiders, shining spears and hemlocks as the mobile element has proven effective. With psychic support giving the edge when needed.
Wave serpents are definitely great but not taking them is by no means an auto loss.
Seconded, im 6 for 6 with my Eldar just now without drowning my opponents in Wraith Units or Wave Serpents.
Im currently running a Biel-Tan style Yanari list with a Vanguard and Supreme Command Detachment similar to the following:
Craftworld Supreme Command
Avatar of Khaine
Autarch Skyrunner
Warlock
Yanari Vanugard Eldrad
Yvraine (Warlord)
10 Howling Banshee OR 10 Striking Scorpions
6 Shadow Spectres
6 Fire Dragons
6 Shining Spears
6 Dark Reapers
Wave Serpent
Wave Serpent
Load outs vary to hit the 2k mark and while i've no doubt it would get taken apart by super competitive lists im happy with the way it plays and the variety of units im getting to field.
Awesome news, i was starting to get worried we'd see almost nothing but power armour between now and the new year. Looking forward to seeing what they do with the different Craftworlds but will it be on par with Strength From Death? Will need to wait and see.
Would also like to see the Avatar of Khaine buffed up a bit, i want him back to his 2nd ed glory days! Having 1 less wound, attack and worse invulnerable save than the Yncarne feels like a slap in the face.
DivineVisitor wrote: Awesome news, i was starting to get worried we'd see almost nothing but power armour between now and the new year. Looking forward to seeing what they do with the different Craftworlds but will it be on par with Strength From Death? Will need to wait and see.
Would also like to see the Avatar of Khaine buffed up a bit, i want him back to his 2nd ed glory days! Having 1 less wound, attack and worse invulnerable save than the Yncarne feels like a slap in the face.
Would also like to see the Avatar of Khaine buffed up a bit, i want him back to his 2nd ed glory days! Having 1 less wound, attack and worse invulnerable save than the Yncarne feels like a slap in the face.
At least there's the molten body stuff.
And he can start on the table rather than having to wait until something dies.
How has the Avatar fared when fielded? I was going to do it last Saturday, but sadly left him in a storage case at home when I arrived to do battle at a friend's place.
Would also like to see the Avatar of Khaine buffed up a bit, i want him back to his 2nd ed glory days! Having 1 less wound, attack and worse invulnerable save than the Yncarne feels like a slap in the face.
At least there's the molten body stuff.
And he can start on the table rather than having to wait until something dies.
And he has a ranged attack.
Edit- Also Strength 8 compared to 6, he as well as all asuryani in 12 inches can reroll charges and his weapon has the melta effect of rolling 2d6 discarding the lower bringing his average damage up. However the Yncarne can reroll wounds, gets a wound back anytime an aeldari model dies near it and projects a fnp in a bubble. Also remember the Yncarne is 87 points more expensive I beleive (at work away from book)
Would also like to see the Avatar of Khaine buffed up a bit, i want him back to his 2nd ed glory days! Having 1 less wound, attack and worse invulnerable save than the Yncarne feels like a slap in the face.
At least there's the molten body stuff.
And he can start on the table rather than having to wait until something dies.
And he has a ranged attack.
Edit- Also Strength 8 compared to 6, he as well as all asuryani in 12 inches can reroll charges and his weapon has the melta effect of rolling 2d6 discarding the lower bringing his average damage up. However the Yncarne can reroll wounds, gets a wound back anytime an aeldari model dies near it and projects a fnp in a bubble. Also remember the Yncarne is 87 points more expensive I beleive (at work away from book)
And the Yncarne is a Psyker who can teleport around the battlefield. Still feel the Avatar of Khaine is lacking somewhat by comparison.
Im just nostalgic for the 2nd ed days when the Avatar and Bloodthirster were like clash of the titans and nowadays when i compare the two there seems a fair difference between them. I'd love it if they released rules for a buffed up Forgeworld Avatar to bring things back in line.
Honestly kind of hope the eldar book gives me a reason to play eldar not ynari. I'm never much one for special characters despite my competitive nature, and i really only care for the fluff of the craftworld eldar (even though they are pretty welll woven).
Chippen wrote: How are Warp Spiders? As Ynnari, I'm wondering if a squad of 10 + Exarch can warp in, wipe a squad, and soulburst out. With psychic support it seems plausible, especially against like Pathfinder squads.
They badly need errata to shoot after fallback or a deep strike option, otherwise smart opponent won't allow you to shoot them more than once per fight, if ever.
Their shooting is not optimal against infantry or vehicles, which puts them at odd place just like windriders (it's much easier to get enemy infantry in cover with banshees, nuke infantry not in cover with shuriken catapults and destroy multi wound models with dragons or hemlock with serpents with 3 shuriken cannons providing similar fire support as spiders).
Ok so looking at Swooping Hawks and specifically the Sunrifle, why are we not seeing more of these in lists?
The Sunrifle is only a few more points more than a Lasblaster and if a unit suffers an unsaved wound the unit is -1 to ALL hit rolls until the end of the turn. So this gun can half the amount of shots on average that will hit for Conscript and also the number of melee attacks. Not to mention you can neuter any other enemy unit that is threatening your models. Potentially on a Hemlock, if you get off conceal, enemies that have suffered a wound from the Sunrifle are -3 to hit against it. A min squad with Sunrifle is 89pts is that not good value for money?
Plus Rapid Fire 2 guns where you can deepstrike your hawks within rapid fire range, sure its only Strength 3 but its at 4 shots each is pretty good?
Also can anyone clarify that I am reading the rules for grenade pack right, if you fly over say a 50 strong unit of conscripts with a 5 man hawk squad you roll only 5 dice and on a 6 they suffer a mortal wound? I think I just really want it to be you roll one dice for each model in the unit they fly over and no other limit.
GreaterGood? wrote: Has anyone tried warlock spam for smites? I'm thinking about a supreme command detachment and load up the warlocks into a wave serpent.
Likewise, do you see a point to the conclave? I'd rather have individual warlocks.
Warlocks have a nerfed Smite which is 9" range and 1 mortal wound. If you want Smite spam consider Farseers who can cast two smites each psychic phase and have the ability to reroll any number of dice in a failed psychic test or Spiritseers which are only 66pts so less than two Warlocks and they do D3 with potential to do D6 mortal wounds. But they can only cast one a turn. Farseers on foot are the most efficient and reliable way to spam Smite for Craftworlds.
At the moment there is not really a reason to take Conclaves as they are the same price per model and are limited in their Psychic phase compared to single Warlocks and they also lose the character special rule. If they were cheaper than individual Warlocks per model there may be more reason to take. Also being one squad they can benefit from psychic buffs but there is really no reason to take them otherwise.
Actually looking at the rules if you have a unit of 7-10 Warlocks in a conclave their Smite is still 9" but always deals D6 mortal wounds, so you could cast D6 Mortal Wound Smite 3 times in a psychic phase. Which may actually be more efficient than the equivalent amount of Farseers. 7 Warlocks in a conclave is about the same price as 2 Farseers on foot plus a single Warlock. So it is comparable amount of Mortal wounds you could get off potentially, though the Conclave Smite and Psychic ability degrades as you lose Warlocks.
Sunrifle and the Phoenix nightfire missiles only work until end of turn so their most likely outcome is -1 to hit in the enemies return fight phase after being charged. Which isn't terrible but obviously not as good as the preferred -1 to shooting for the enemies turn.
The swooping hawk can still pull this off through soulburst in the enemy turn but it is pretty hard to line up. A good use for soulbursting with yvraine to word of the Phoenix the swooping Hawks who are 18 away letting them shoot. But yeah can't see it happening consistently enough to make it worth while.
But hey, bowling banshees plus warlock drain plus sunrifle means anyone who doesn't die from the banshee charge is at -3 to strike back.
As for smite spam, in matched play obviously farseers and the conclave can't multi cast smite. And yes weakened smite on warlocks does neuter the smite spam.
The main advantage of the conclave is the whole unit benefiting from psychic spells and also being able to soak overwatch better. Tho the only psychic spell that matters to affect them is fortune (or word of the Phoenix if ynnari) tho is that worth giving up just straight not being able to target and cast more powers for? Also buffed smite at the larger conclave size can be useful.
Wyldcarde wrote: Sunrifle and the Phoenix nightfire missiles only work until end of turn so their most likely outcome is -1 to hit in the enemies return fight phase after being charged. Which isn't terrible but obviously not as good as the preferred -1 to shooting for the enemies turn.
The swooping hawk can still pull this off through soulburst in the enemy turn but it is pretty hard to line up. A good use for soulbursting with yvraine to word of the Phoenix the swooping Hawks who are 18 away letting them shoot. But yeah can't see it happening consistently enough to make it worth while.
But hey, bowling banshees plus warlock drain plus sunrifle means anyone who doesn't die from the banshee charge is at -3 to strike back.
I have seen a thread on YMDC but I think its quite clear this is supposed to be for an entire turn so at the end of the enemies turn the effect wears off. I am going to assume it is supposed to be like that so yeah they can also stack with Banshees and Warlocks. I think combined with Wraithblades with Ghostswords are more resilient but would only be -2 in combat with drain and Sunrifle. I think -2 and -3 to hit is really really powerful though and we should be making uses as Craftworld players to use our multiple sources of -1 to hit in combination.
As for smite spam, in matched play obviously farseers and the conclave can't multi cast smite. And yes weakened smite on warlocks does neuter the smite spam.
The main advantage of the conclave is the whole unit benefiting from psychic spells and also being able to soak overwatch better. Tho the only psychic spell that matters to affect them is fortune (or word of the Phoenix if ynnari) tho is that worth giving up just straight not being able to target and cast more powers for? Also buffed smite at the larger conclave size can be useful.
Matched play limits all powers except Smite from being cast multiple times, so you can spam Smite.
There are your turn and enemy's turn, which is why Sunrifle is not worth it.
You can't "spam" Smite because a psyker is always limited to 1 same psychic power. Psychic Focus just extends this rule to 1 same psychic power per turn with exception of Smite.
Shadenuat wrote: There are your turn and enemy's turn, which is why Sunrifle is not worth it.
You can't "spam" Smite because a psyker is always limited to 1 same psychic power. Psychic Focus just extends this rule to 1 same psychic power per turn with exception of Smite.
You are correct, I had it mixed up I thought battle round was what they renamed player turns. Which seems ridiculous and RAW you can only use the Sunrifle to nerf their hit rolls in your turn. I think if RAI was for this it would specify it only working in the assault phase. So I think RAI is that it should effect the enemies shooting in their turn.
And I also misread the rules for Smite, it is indeed once per psyker. But you can still spam Smite with multiple psykers. In that case if you want to spam Smite, you can take one or two Farseers to have guide and doom and also Smite and maybe a load of Spiritseers. I'm not sure what other races have in terms of Smite spam.
Yeah what shadenaut said.
I agree RAI is those effects should last a whole round and would definitely make them worth it (shadow spectres/hemlock/warp spiders + conceal + sunrifle is nasty) but unfortunately RAW it does not work like that. Leaving them niche at best. Was hoping it would be faqed but no luck
We really don't know. Game designer's mind is dark and full of avengers in falcons, maybe he thought sunrifle would be a tool to reduce enemy retaliation against your units during fight phase.
>>I'm not sure what other races have in terms of Smite spam.
Primaris psykers. For when you need two warlocks for the price of one.
Shadenuat wrote: We really don't know. Game designer's mind is dark and full of avengers in falcons, maybe he thought sunrifle would be a tool to reduce enemy retaliation against your units during fight phase.
>>I'm not sure what other races have in terms of Smite spam.
Primaris psykers. For when you need two warlocks for the price of one.
Just checkout the top two lists of the NOVA Open GT.... you will see how other armies use smite spam. I hate both those lists.. they both exemplify everything that is wrong in the current game design!
If those arrmies start dominating consitently then people will just start bringing a Culexus. Just one of him shuts down smite-spam pretty hard and he can pop up like a jack-in-a-box whenever you need him.
Either that or just FAQ Smite so that it if affected by Psychic Focus just like other powers.
pm713 wrote: Which is great for armies with a Culexus...
About half of tournament armies tend to be Imperium of one flavour or another so plenty of access to him. My point is that if people start fielding him on a regular basis it will make people think twice before bringing Smite spam. This is something of a meta-level counter rather than a list based counter. The popularity of a Culexas will turn psyker heavy armies from reliable into win-big, lose-big depending on the match-up.
pm713 wrote: Which is great for armies with a Culexus...
About half of tournament armies tend to be Imperium of one flavour or another so plenty of access to him. My point is that if people start fielding him on a regular basis it will make people think twice before bringing Smite spam. This is something of a meta-level counter rather than a list based counter. The popularity of a Culexas will turn psyker heavy armies from reliable into win-big, lose-big depending on the match-up.
Making an meta change that turns any kind of army into a "win-big, lose-big" army is kind of the opposite of balance (outside of Rock-Paper-Scissors). How about we just balance Smite instead? Psychic armies need a power available to them that isn't limited to 1 casting attempt, otherwise you neuter Psychic armies entirely.
My suggestion is to make it cast on a 7+, with the boosted damage on 11+. Otherwise keep it unchanged. This will make Smite spam lists unappealing, but still give a back-up power to armies like Tzeentch, GKs and Eldar. Obviously certain units that have altered Smites would need to be adjusted too.
Has anyone thought of running ShuriCannon Bikes in reserve with at least one Warlock Skyrunner?
That way you can bring them on whenever you want and cast conceal on them the turn they come in too. This way you don't have to risk them sitting somewhere without conceal up should you not have first turn.
As they have Battle Focus they can come on the board advance for 22" movement and still fire without a reduction to their hit rolls.
They are the cheapest platform to spam Shuriken Cannons too.
Never mind I'm still thinking on terms of 7th edition reserves
While shuriken cannons are great, spamming Str 6 isn't as effective as it used to be. With the change of the wound chart they only wound t4 on 3s and with extra wounds on vehicles they are less effective at glancing tanks to death.
Wyldcarde wrote: While shuriken cannons are great, spamming Str 6 isn't as effective as it used to be. With the change of the wound chart they only wound t4 on 3s and with extra wounds on vehicles they are less effective at glancing tanks to death.
Still one of our best weapons.
Yes the dynamics of the weapon have changed now the an example is that it makes no difference if you use a Cannon or Catapult against a Dreadnought (kills it with 62 shots avg).
That said the "rending like feature" makes all shuriken weapons quite deadly vs anything that dose not have invulnerable save.
I use to uses WarpSpiders jump in Pop a Dread and jump out , Not going to be able to do that now : )
Shuricannons have twice the range which helps to keep the unit out of charge range. Even though they can withdraw from Combat and still shoot, CC is not where our bikes or grav tanks want to be (unless you are using them to eat overwatch).
Also T7 is quite a specific area (although it does cover a lot of Dreads and Tanks). Against every other toughness, Shuricannons get at least +1 to wound over shuricats. Against T5, they wound on a 3+ vs a 5+ for Shuricats. Significant if you expect to see Death Guard heaving up in your meta.
Had an interesting outing last night against an ad mech soup list.
Ended up playing hammer and anvil which wasn't ideal but lead to some interesting moments.
I took a bastion filled with dark reapers to see how it went. The ad mech player shot a knight Paladins battlecannon and 2 dunecrawlers Str 10 gun into it only doing 6 wounds. Which was nice to see. The survivability seems to be there though trades of being able to wotp and guide them. Still they did perfectly fine dropping 9 wounds on a vulture turn 1 and killing a doomed dunecrawler turn 2.
Highlight of the game for me was turn 1 tho. With most of the enemies good stuff out of range I had no targets for doom apart from his 50 conscript squad and only my shadow spectres that could meaningfully them. So I ended up guiding them and wotp them and shooting at the conscripts twice for 44 dead conscripts from their non flamer mode.
I recently tried a Yncarne + Hemlock combo which worked pretty well.
Park the hemlock right in front of an enemy unit on a flank and shoot it. If the Hemlock kills the unit (possibly with help from long range shooting) you can bring the Yncarne in. The Hemlock will be closer to most of the opponents army than the Yncarne so it has to be shot first, and it's very durable with a -2 to hit from conceal. They then have a CC beast in their DZ to deal with.
The only other way I've found to bring the Yncarne in reliably requires rushing your whole army into the opponents lines, so this is a nice way to make him work in a list that prefers to hang back.
Park the hemlock right in front of an enemy unit on a flank and shoot it. If the Hemlock kills the unit (possibly with help from long range shooting) you can bring the Yncarne in. The Hemlock will be closer to most of the opponents army than the Yncarne so it has to be shot first, and it's very durable with a -2 to hit from conceal. They then have a CC beast in their DZ to deal with.
The only other way I've found to bring the Yncarne in reliably requires rushing your whole army into the opponents lines, so this is a nice way to make him work in a list that prefers to hang back.
Unless they faq'd it, conceal only affects infantry and bikes. So the Hemlock cannot benefit from conceal.
Park the hemlock right in front of an enemy unit on a flank and shoot it. If the Hemlock kills the unit (possibly with help from long range shooting) you can bring the Yncarne in. The Hemlock will be closer to most of the opponents army than the Yncarne so it has to be shot first, and it's very durable with a -2 to hit from conceal. They then have a CC beast in their DZ to deal with.
The only other way I've found to bring the Yncarne in reliably requires rushing your whole army into the opponents lines, so this is a nice way to make him work in a list that prefers to hang back.
Unless they faq'd it, conceal only affects infantry and bikes. So the Hemlock cannot benefit from conceal.
It affects the psyker as well as infantry and bikes within 3". So, since it simply affects the Psyker it will apply to him. It won't matter what keywords the Caster has.
Park the hemlock right in front of an enemy unit on a flank and shoot it. If the Hemlock kills the unit (possibly with help from long range shooting) you can bring the Yncarne in. The Hemlock will be closer to most of the opponents army than the Yncarne so it has to be shot first, and it's very durable with a -2 to hit from conceal. They then have a CC beast in their DZ to deal with.
The only other way I've found to bring the Yncarne in reliably requires rushing your whole army into the opponents lines, so this is a nice way to make him work in a list that prefers to hang back.
Unless they faq'd it, conceal only affects infantry and bikes. So the Hemlock cannot benefit from conceal.
It affects the psyker as well as infantry and bikes within 3". So, since it simply affects the Psyker it will apply to him. It won't matter what keywords the Caster has.
Wow! I cannot beleive I mis-read that so many times !
I think it's more likely our traits will effect all of our units with <Craftworld> keyword like the Ad mech stuff.
I'm hoping for at least one that gives this -1 to hit outside 12" because we have so much stuff that already benefits from this like Conceal and Vectored Engines it will be effective to stack it more. Also a deep strike strategem representing webway gates would be cool and fluffy but this was previously a mechanic of Dark Eldar so maybe not.
Aspect Warriors to troop slot for Biel-tan, Windriders to troops for Saim-hann, Path finders for Alaitoc, Black Guardians for Ulthwe and better wraith for Iyanden.
Also traits for minor craftworlds would be awesome.
With eldar having access to conceal and a few units that already come with -1 to hit, I highly doubt they will add a -1 to hit army wide. Would be too powerful. And would mean shadow spectres, warp spiders and possibly hemlocks all under conceal would be -3 to hit! That's 6s at best for the vast majority of things out there.
As long as what they bring in for craftworlds is on par with soulburst I will be happy. Making that a meaningful choice to make rather than just soulburst > battle focus so why not play Ynarri?
It's weird, since it seems like they're handing out the Alpha Legion tactic/stratagem to everybody and it's a really obvious choice for Alatoic. But yeah, it's exceptionally powerful when coupled with Conceal or Hard to Hit or other penalties. Surely they're not going to exclude Jump Infantry from getting traits, though it's pretty plausible that they'll exclude flyers.
(Chaos) Marines got traits on just infantry, bikes, and dreadnoughts. Craftworld Eldar are a fairly fleshed-out army with rough equivalents to all of these, so I don't think we should be surprised if we only get traits on infantry, bikes, and wraithlords. This would be disappointing, though, since Eldar are much more reliant on their vehicles and don't typically want to deploy lots of infantry on the table, and wraithlords are far less flexible than dreadnoughts (plus we have no equivalent to the forgeworld dreads).
Amishprn86 wrote: Ynnari being "just SFD" to me makes sense, 1-3 extra Stratagems maybe. Tho i dont see more than 3 coming to them.
I'm sure Warlord traits as well. But yeah, I'm inclined to agree. I suspect much like Deathwing and Ravenwing, the Ynnari in the index already have their "chapter tactics". They'll probably get a little polishing up but I suspect the various Masques/Craftworlds/Kabals will have a major boost in comparison.
It's worth noting that unless the Craftworld Eldar codex explicitly addresses Ynnari, Ynnari armies will be able to take advantage of Craftworld Tactics at least until they get their own update. So far, all codices released have only cared whether everything in a detachment has the same <subfaction> keyword. Eldar units don't lose these keywords when they gain YNNARI. The only wrinkle is that, per the FAQ, the warlord must be one of the 3 Ynnari HQs, but this just means that Yvraine needs to be in a different detachment than your Craftworld units which you want to give a tactic to.
I guess it's also interesting that so far every codex has had two kinds of army-wide special rule, in addition to Objective Secured. There's one that the whole faction gets and then another for each subfaction. So Space Marines get ATSKNF, regardless of subfaction, and then regular Marines get Chapter Tactics while GKs get their psychic bonus and daemon flavor rules. Chaos Marines all get Death to the False Emperor, and then each codex Legion gets traits while Death Guard get their rapid-fire thing. Mechanicus has Canticles and dogmas. So it seems to me to be entirely possible that Strength from Death is intended to be only a replacement for the faction-level rules like Battle Focus and that a later Ynnari release will add another rule on top of it. Of course, it seems unlikely that Ynnari merit their own whole codex, and we haven't seen how any of these really minor factions will be handled yet.
It is in the index so people can play it from the get go.
I doubt they will be covered much in the craftworld codex.
I think a formation of strategem would have been good. But then you still need to cover off on the three characters.
I don't know if Ynnari will be included in the CWE Codex, but if they are, it would be interesting to see unit options for them other than just the Special Character HQs. Like being able to take some kind of Ynnari captain or a lesser Ynnari Psyker than Yvraine might be interesting. OTOH, Revenant Discipline powers are really strong, so it might not be possible to make a cheaper character have access to them and still be balanced.
Blazinghand wrote: I don't know if Ynnari will be included in the CWE Codex, but if they are, it would be interesting to see unit options for them other than just the Special Character HQs. Like being able to take some kind of Ynnari captain or a lesser Ynnari Psyker than Yvraine might be interesting. OTOH, Revenant Discipline powers are really strong, so it might not be possible to make a cheaper character have access to them and still be balanced.
There's no hint of Ynarri coming with the CWE codex.
The index is pretty much all that is needed for Ynnari to work. So I think they'll only release a codex if they release new models, and I could see GW flesh out Ynnari in 2018 with a few brand new units.
Hi guys, I'm going through a bunch of army options at the moment, after a long hiatus from the game. Have mostly been considering starting a new Chaos army (because I get the option of custom building monsters, while also getting tanks and walkers to build and paint ), but before I start investing money I decided I'd give my old Eldar force I chance to shine.
I know that the new codex is meant to be upcoming in a couple of months, for I believe just Craftworld (so no dark eldar) so I might hold off any big decisions until then, but I just wondered how things had changed since I played eldar/dark eldar back in... 6th? I think it was.
For instance, glancing through the index... Eldar and Dark Eldar seem slower than other armies. I mean individual models are pretty quick, but other armies seem to get options like -
Terminator deep strike
Obliterator deep strike
Valkyrie grav shute (which is even better as you can move after it)
Eldar are stuck with standard wave serpent spam (yaawwwn)... and nothing else? Except for on fragile units like striking scorpions. Always seems odd to me that the ancient race of psykers and delicate advance technology, were also the only one that couldn't teleport their heavy troops into the fight.
I guess I only think of this because I remember the days of the dark eldar webway portal, which also seems to have been removed? So dark eldar also seem reliant on their vehicle spam or footslogging.
The reason I put eldar to one side was because wave serpent spam bored me (I only bought 2, which was the most I wanted in a list), but it was the only way to be vaguely competitive. Seems that nothing has changed?
However, going from what other armies have gotten in their codices so far, there's a chance for a strategem of 1CP allowing a unit to be set up anywhere on the board. It's still worse than deepstrike though, as it happens before first turn and so if the opponent goes first they can just shoot everything at that unit.
I'm going to read through this thread and see if I can glean any interesting builds that inspire me though. I like eldar in theory, I prefer Iyanden Psyker lists, lots of wraithguard and warlocks, so the relatively new wraithblades interest me, but being forced to footslog all those expensive and rare wraith units is... bizarre, fluffwise.
I mean, even space marines can drop-pod in their far less rare dreadnoughts. But the fallen heroes of a dying race have to walk across the battlefield...
edit: I think I forgot to get to my point... I'm so tired... but if anyone has any advice or feedback (especially regarding my hope for a wraith heavy psyker list) please let me know
Regardless of fluff or logic, xenos will always just be stuck with ghetto versions of stuff the Imperium has.
As far as competitive choices and your list idea - Wave Serpent spam is good, and you'll need to put those Wraiths in Serpents if you want them to get close enough to do anything. Regarding Wraiths + Psykers, I don't see why you wouldn't give a unit that powerful a pocket Warlock as a force multiplier.
Other pure Craftworld competitive choices are: Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons (in Serpent), and Nightspinners are good too.
Regardless of fluff or logic, xenos will always just be stuck with ghetto versions of stuff the Imperium has.
As far as competitive choices and your list idea - Wave Serpent spam is good, and you'll need to put those Wraiths in Serpents if you want them to get close enough to do anything. Regarding Wraiths + Psykers, I don't see why you wouldn't give a unit that powerful a pocket Warlock as a force multiplier.
Other pure Craftworld competitive choices are: Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons (in Serpent), and Nightspinners are good too.
Sucks if you don't like Serpents basically. Because it seems to be they're the only thing worth taking alone and the only thing that makes other units usable.
Regardless of fluff or logic, xenos will always just be stuck with ghetto versions of stuff the Imperium has.
As far as competitive choices and your list idea - Wave Serpent spam is good, and you'll need to put those Wraiths in Serpents if you want them to get close enough to do anything. Regarding Wraiths + Psykers, I don't see why you wouldn't give a unit that powerful a pocket Warlock as a force multiplier.
Other pure Craftworld competitive choices are: Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons (in Serpent), and Nightspinners are good too.
Sucks if you don't like Serpents basically. Because it seems to be they're the only thing worth taking alone and the only thing that makes other units usable.
What is there not to like about Serpents? Just the looks of them, or you don't want mechdar?
Unfortunately the army is simply designed to require Serpents. We have a bunch of expensive, fragile, short-ranged infantry. Our only decent basic Troops choice costs twice as much as a Guardsman, dies just as easily, and shoots worse outside of 12". You're obviously not supposed to be deploying this stuff on the table. It is hard to see what could possibly be done with Guardians, Dire Avengers, Howling Banshees, Fire Dragons, Wraithblades, Wraithguard, and even Dark Reapers that would make you not really want to stick them inside of a transport if for no other reason than to protect them from a first turn alpha strike. Maybe you could get away with footslogging Wraithguard or with deploying Dark Reapers into cover against armies without much shooting. Rangers and Striking Scorpions are literally the only non-jump non-character infantry units in the index that don't want to start in a transport, and that's because they deep strike (also I think both should probably strongly consider taking a Serpent anyway).
And, like, we'd put Shining Spears in Wave Serpents if the rules allowed it!
I don't think this is an internal balance thing -- you're not really "fixing" this without making Wave Serpents stupidly expensive while slashing infantry prices to the bone such that Eldar become a horde army. It's just never going to make sense to try to run up the field with a unit where every T3 4+ dude has a melta gun. Other armies can either be priced as hordes, where they expect to lose half of their guys on the way in, or they have ablative wounds so that Devastators, for example, can deploy on the table and not lose half their value to a couple of anti-tank weapons.
Chippen wrote: Regardless of fluff or logic, xenos will always just be stuck with ghetto versions of stuff the Imperium has.
I suppose you didn't play during 7th edition…
Wave serpent, dark reapers and hemlocks are indeed really needed to make a competitive Eldar list at the moment.
But the codex is at most 2 month away. The guard codex previews mention a point reduction for the Leman Russ (which is currently very weak), so there is hope that GW will address some of the CWE codex' issues.
Regardless of fluff or logic, xenos will always just be stuck with ghetto versions of stuff the Imperium has.
As far as competitive choices and your list idea - Wave Serpent spam is good, and you'll need to put those Wraiths in Serpents if you want them to get close enough to do anything. Regarding Wraiths + Psykers, I don't see why you wouldn't give a unit that powerful a pocket Warlock as a force multiplier.
Other pure Craftworld competitive choices are: Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons (in Serpent), and Nightspinners are good too.
Sucks if you don't like Serpents basically. Because it seems to be they're the only thing worth taking alone and the only thing that makes other units usable.
What is there not to like about Serpents? Just the looks of them, or you don't want mechdar?
I don't dislike them per se, but I dislike the idea of spamming multiple of the same unit. Boring to build and boring to paint and boring to play.
Mechdar is fine with me, but I'd prefer to run a variety of units. I know falcons and prisms are seen as pointless right now though so I doubt I'd buy any of those...
The other things I have issues with are that eldar are super fragile and a dying race etc... so why do their war walkers have their controller strapped to the front of them like a sacrificial lamb? Doesn't reflect in the rules, but makes the models look wierd. They've always been a good unit but I coudlnt' bring myself to buy any. Might look into an alternative model though, or perhaps a conversion opportunity...
Edit:
Extra question. I know that YNNARI does not allow for haemonculus units, but does that only count for the YNNARI detachment, or does it mean that if you have any ynnari at all then you can't have haemonculus units at all, even in a different detachment?
Regardless of fluff or logic, xenos will always just be stuck with ghetto versions of stuff the Imperium has.
As far as competitive choices and your list idea - Wave Serpent spam is good, and you'll need to put those Wraiths in Serpents if you want them to get close enough to do anything. Regarding Wraiths + Psykers, I don't see why you wouldn't give a unit that powerful a pocket Warlock as a force multiplier.
Other pure Craftworld competitive choices are: Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons (in Serpent), and Nightspinners are good too.
Sucks if you don't like Serpents basically. Because it seems to be they're the only thing worth taking alone and the only thing that makes other units usable.
What is there not to like about Serpents? Just the looks of them, or you don't want mechdar?
I don't dislike them per se, but I dislike the idea of spamming multiple of the same unit. Boring to build and boring to paint and boring to play.
Mechdar is fine with me, but I'd prefer to run a variety of units. I know falcons and prisms are seen as pointless right now though so I doubt I'd buy any of those...
The other things I have issues with are that eldar are super fragile and a dying race etc... so why do their war walkers have their controller strapped to the front of them like a sacrificial lamb? Doesn't reflect in the rules, but makes the models look wierd. They've always been a good unit but I coudlnt' bring myself to buy any. Might look into an alternative model though, or perhaps a conversion opportunity...
Edit:
Extra question. I know that YNNARI does not allow for haemonculus units, but does that only count for the YNNARI detachment, or does it mean that if you have any ynnari at all then you can't have haemonculus units at all, even in a different detachment?
You can have any other detachment along side Ynnari, only the Ynnari detachment(s) follow the no "coven, Drazhar, Mandrakes" rules.
On a side note... Drazhar is Incubi, but Incubi can be Ynnari... also the fluff i would assume Incubi would hate the Ynnari?
Regardless of fluff or logic, xenos will always just be stuck with ghetto versions of stuff the Imperium has.
As far as competitive choices and your list idea - Wave Serpent spam is good, and you'll need to put those Wraiths in Serpents if you want them to get close enough to do anything. Regarding Wraiths + Psykers, I don't see why you wouldn't give a unit that powerful a pocket Warlock as a force multiplier.
Other pure Craftworld competitive choices are: Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons (in Serpent), and Nightspinners are good too.
Sucks if you don't like Serpents basically. Because it seems to be they're the only thing worth taking alone and the only thing that makes other units usable.
What is there not to like about Serpents? Just the looks of them, or you don't want mechdar?
I don't dislike them per se, but I dislike the idea of spamming multiple of the same unit. Boring to build and boring to paint and boring to play.
Mechdar is fine with me, but I'd prefer to run a variety of units. I know falcons and prisms are seen as pointless right now though so I doubt I'd buy any of those...
The other things I have issues with are that eldar are super fragile and a dying race etc... so why do their war walkers have their controller strapped to the front of them like a sacrificial lamb? Doesn't reflect in the rules, but makes the models look wierd. They've always been a good unit but I coudlnt' bring myself to buy any. Might look into an alternative model though, or perhaps a conversion opportunity...
Edit:
Extra question. I know that YNNARI does not allow for haemonculus units, but does that only count for the YNNARI detachment, or does it mean that if you have any ynnari at all then you can't have haemonculus units at all, even in a different detachment?
You can have any other detachment along side Ynnari, only the Ynnari detachment(s) follow the no "coven, Drazhar, Mandrakes" rules.
On a side note... Drazhar is Incubi, but Incubi can be Ynnari... also the fluff i would assume Incubi would hate the Ynnari?
Ahh thankyou. Just considering units I would like to build/paint/convert. Grotesque, talos/cronos, avatar maybe... I tend to prefer the big stuff haha. Lot of them dont seem overly worth it though, at least until a codex turns up.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Out of curiosity, as they're models I like (with fluff I like), how usable would a force be made up of:
5x Wraithguard with wraithcannon
5x wraithguard with D-Scythes
Each with their own wave serpent transport, and character support of choice. They're pricy units, but I like the models for some reason. And as they would be using up my only two wave serpents, the other units on the board to accompany them would have to be... jetbikes of some sort, or warp spiders, or swooping hawks. Which happen to also be units I like, in theory anyway. I'd also include rangers, which are also model I own that I like the paint job on. And Dark Reapers.
I'd even consider adding 5x Wraithblades with swords to the army, if there was a way to field them...
Any tips on this approach would be appreciated. I don't expect it to be tournament competitive, I only play friendly games, but I'd like to be able to win against a decent space marine, IG, or Tau player (my usual opponents).
Regardless of fluff or logic, xenos will always just be stuck with ghetto versions of stuff the Imperium has.
As far as competitive choices and your list idea - Wave Serpent spam is good, and you'll need to put those Wraiths in Serpents if you want them to get close enough to do anything. Regarding Wraiths + Psykers, I don't see why you wouldn't give a unit that powerful a pocket Warlock as a force multiplier.
Other pure Craftworld competitive choices are: Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons (in Serpent), and Nightspinners are good too.
Sucks if you don't like Serpents basically. Because it seems to be they're the only thing worth taking alone and the only thing that makes other units usable.
What is there not to like about Serpents? Just the looks of them, or you don't want mechdar?
Regardless of fluff or logic, xenos will always just be stuck with ghetto versions of stuff the Imperium has.
As far as competitive choices and your list idea - Wave Serpent spam is good, and you'll need to put those Wraiths in Serpents if you want them to get close enough to do anything. Regarding Wraiths + Psykers, I don't see why you wouldn't give a unit that powerful a pocket Warlock as a force multiplier.
Other pure Craftworld competitive choices are: Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons (in Serpent), and Nightspinners are good too.
Sucks if you don't like Serpents basically. Because it seems to be they're the only thing worth taking alone and the only thing that makes other units usable.
What is there not to like about Serpents? Just the looks of them, or you don't want mechdar?
I just don't want to spam Serpents.
Completely fair. Though in my opinion it isn't spamming when it is your only dedicated transport. I do see your point though.
I'm very excited fort he CWE codex. Hopefully more things become viable.
Take wraithblades with aze and shield backed up by a Farseer plus a pair of Wraithlords accompanying. You then don't need too many serpents. Axe/shield wraithguard with Fortune cast on them are very resilient. Add a hemlock wraithfighter, some WG in serpents (I only have 2) and you have a great start to your list. I'm really looking forward to seeing what strategems etc Eldar will get in the new codex.
Eldar have some great mobile options with the hemlock, shining spears and to a lesser extent warp spiders and jetbikes. If you are happy to play forgeworld shadow spectres are amazing as well. This gives a solid, mobile flanking force that can hit hard. Backed up by a warlock on skyrunner with conceal to tag team with the hemlock it can be super difficult to deal with as well.
Then a solid base of farseer, yvraine and dark reapers backed up by guardians and kabalite Warriors as screening units and you have a decent starting point.
bullyboy wrote: Take wraithblades with aze and shield backed up by a Farseer plus a pair of Wraithlords accompanying. You then don't need too many serpents. Axe/shield wraithguard with Fortune cast on them are very resilient. Add a hemlock wraithfighter, some WG in serpents (I only have 2) and you have a great start to your list. I'm really looking forward to seeing what strategems etc Eldar will get in the new codex.
How many axe/shield wraithblades would you take footslogging though? A full unit of 10? I only ask because they would use up a lot of points, if you already have 10 wraithguard and 2 wave serpents in the list
Niiru wrote: Out of curiosity, as they're models I like (with fluff I like), how usable would a force be made up of:
5x Wraithguard with wraithcannon
5x wraithguard with D-Scythes
Each with their own wave serpent transport, and character support of choice. They're pricy units, but I like the models for some reason. And as they would be using up my only two wave serpents, the other units on the board to accompany them would have to be... jetbikes of some sort, or warp spiders, or swooping hawks. Which happen to also be units I like, in theory anyway. I'd also include rangers, which are also model I own that I like the paint job on. And Dark Reapers.
I'd even consider adding 5x Wraithblades with swords to the army, if there was a way to field them...
Any tips on this approach would be appreciated. I don't expect it to be tournament competitive, I only play friendly games, but I'd like to be able to win against a decent space marine, IG, or Tau player (my usual opponents).
Looks pretty solid. I normally base my armies around 2 squads of Wraithguards in Serpents. Dark Reapers and a Farseer are excellent as is the Hemlock. If you add another Elite unit then you have a Vanguard Detachment ready to go.
I run Wraithblades with Swords in a Serpent. They can disembark and assault in the same turn so delivery is not a problem. Add a sprinkling of other units to taste and you should have fun while being reasonably competitive.
I don't like the Wraithblades with axe/shield due to the price and low volume of attacks. They are priced like TH/SS Terminators but do not hit as hard and are not as durable. :( Swords can threaten most units through weight of attacks and I usually have heavy shooting to threaten really big targets. Put them in a Serpent and you are good.
Total = 1964
(Edit: Just to say, this isn't laid out in proper detachment format, as I haven't figured out the optimum detachments for CP yet)
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The units that are grouped together will share that transport. There's still a free space in each wave serpent, one for yvraine and one for the farseer. Those are a lot of eggs in those baskets though.
A lot of the loadouts are me just picking the options that seem good, so might be places to save some points. The models I don't have are the wraithfighter, and the harlequins unit.
I am actually tempted by two of those harlequin troupe + starweaver units, but I'd need to cut 250 points elsewhere. Might mean dropping the shadowseer for a troupe master.
The reason I went for the more expensive shadowseer though, is that with this list I have access to Runes of Battle, Runes of Fate, Phantasmancy and the Revenant psychic powers... which means I could pick between using smite, or using a variety of actual powers each turn, with no issue of "can only cast this power once per turn". Dont know how useful this would be, but fluffwise it sounded fun.
Any thoughts? I'd appreciate any suggestions. I suspect I'll be very weak to hordes, and I don't have much bubblewrap to stop deep strikers... but on the plus side (if it is a plus) is that the whole army is only 6 drops, and considering the rangers and the dark reapers are designed to be stationary, the "slowest" unit on the table is the wave serpent moving 16" a turn. And that's just because it has a D6 advance, vs the harlies' guaranteed 6" advance.
You could save a few points by dropping the Spiritseer with the D-scythe unit (or downgrading him to a Warlock). He allows the unit to reroll 1s to hit but D-scythes hut automatically so he is not really needed here.
Well the Conscript issue is going to be less of a problem with the update in their Codex.
"Conscripts have seen some changes in the new Astra Militarum codex, designed to make them fit their background more appropriately. If you’ve got loads of these guys on hand, don’t worry! They’re still a very handy unit (particularly in the Valhallan army). Firstly, Conscripts can only be taken in units of 20-30, reducing the effectiveness of stacking orders on a block of 50. Secondly, orders only work on Conscripts on a 4+, and, should they fail, no more orders will work on the unit for the rest of the turn."
Karhedron wrote: You could save a few points by dropping the Spiritseer with the D-scythe unit (or downgrading him to a Warlock). He allows the unit to reroll 1s to hit but D-scythes hut automatically so he is not really needed here.
I actually realised that in bed last night. If I decide to keep a wraithfighter in the list that will be always casting conceal anyway, so I think just one spiritseer is enough... or I could change all my wraiths to D-Scythes and then just have 1 warlock instead. Not sure how much it's worth it. Spiritseer does cast proper smite though, which warlocks cant.
I've spent a lot of points in HQ's though, which I'm not sure if I could spend better elsewhere. Not sure about the rangers and dark reapers in such small numbers being of any use, i included them because I like the models and I own that number of each.
Edit: Question - I just read somewhere that someone was interpretting the spiritseer reroll aura as only working when the enemy unit is within 6" of the spiritseer.... Where I had assumed that it was the wraithguard unit that needed to be within 6" of the spiritseer. If the first was is true, then it makes the spiritseer aura pointless for wraithguard as D-Scythes autohit and wraithcannon won't always be within 6" of an enemy as it would waste what little range they have. Still good for wraithblades though.
Which way is it? The actual rule wording is typically ambiguous. Good old GW.
The target needs to be within 6" of the Spiritseer which is really useless for anything except Wraithblades. If you want decent rerolls for Wraithcannon models, a Farseer with Guide is a better bet.
Karhedron wrote: The target needs to be within 6" of the Spiritseer which is really useless for anything except Wraithblades. If you want decent rerolls for Wraithcannon models, a Farseer with Guide is a better bet.
Wow, what an awful rule. Suddenly spiritseers are worthless except for their ability to smite. Bizarre.
I might see how I feel about losing the psychic options, and add something else that might be fun to play with. I'd still have yvraine, and maybe a farseer, and maybe a shadowseer.
Any thoughts?
Death Jester maybe?
A solitaire?
The Yncarne?
I do wonder if the two wraith units are too big of a point sink, but I do like the models I have, so I would rather drop the serpents and have the wraithguard footslog than drop the wraiths... But it seems like the wraiths+serpent combo is a hard to beat combination.
Edit:
What is the opinion on Swooping Hawks vs Shadow Spectres? I've read a few posts where people are saying Spectres seem to be amazing, and our only real answer to hordes? but the only advantage I can see is the -1 to hit (which is very good obviously), but if you compare two units of 5 :
Swooping Hawks 85pts, 10 S3 shots at 24", 20 shots at 12", ability to deepstrike. 4+ save
Shadow Spectres 115 pts, 5 S6 shots at 18", 5D6 S5 shots at 8", slower movement and no deepstrike. 3+ save and -1 to hit.
So spectres have stronger shots, but less of them, unless they are within 8" then they average the same number of shots as the Hawks. Being that close means they're in danger of getting wiped next turn by a counter attack. Plus they have to get into that range, which would probably mean taking at least a unit of 10.
Hawks seem cheaper, and able to deepstrike into rapid fire range and unleash shots without losing models en route.
Does the extra strength of the shadow spectres actually make that much difference? And make them worth their points? If so, how do you keep them alive long enough to get within 8" of a horde, and then not die afterwards?
What is the opinion on Swooping Hawks vs Shadow Spectres? I've read a few posts where people are saying Spectres seem to be amazing, and our only real answer to hordes? but the only advantage I can see is the -1 to hit (which is very good obviously), but if you compare two units of 5 :
Swooping Hawks 85pts, 10 S3 shots at 24", 20 shots at 12", ability to deepstrike. 4+ save
Shadow Spectres 115 pts, 5 S6 shots at 18", 5D6 S5 shots at 8", slower movement and no deepstrike. 3+ save and -1 to hit.
So spectres have stronger shots, but less of them, unless they are within 8" then they average the same number of shots as the Hawks. Being that close means they're in danger of getting wiped next turn by a counter attack. Plus they have to get into that range, which would probably mean taking at least a unit of 10.
Hawks seem cheaper, and able to deepstrike into rapid fire range and unleash shots without losing models en route.
Does the extra strength of the shadow spectres actually make that much difference? And make them worth their points? If so, how do you keep them alive long enough to get within 8" of a horde, and then not die afterwards?
They also get up to 3x S6 shots each if they keep hitting. Shadow Spectres are incredible. Not used Hawks yet but don't see any great uses for them. Tried Warp Spiders recently too and found them to be lacklustre. My list is built around Shining Spears, Shadow Spectres, Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers. The other aspect warriors are mostly thrown in for fun but not expected to do much.
What is the opinion on Swooping Hawks vs Shadow Spectres? I've read a few posts where people are saying Spectres seem to be amazing, and our only real answer to hordes? but the only advantage I can see is the -1 to hit (which is very good obviously), but if you compare two units of 5 :
Swooping Hawks 85pts, 10 S3 shots at 24", 20 shots at 12", ability to deepstrike. 4+ save
Shadow Spectres 115 pts, 5 S6 shots at 18", 5D6 S5 shots at 8", slower movement and no deepstrike. 3+ save and -1 to hit.
So spectres have stronger shots, but less of them, unless they are within 8" then they average the same number of shots as the Hawks. Being that close means they're in danger of getting wiped next turn by a counter attack. Plus they have to get into that range, which would probably mean taking at least a unit of 10.
Hawks seem cheaper, and able to deepstrike into rapid fire range and unleash shots without losing models en route.
Does the extra strength of the shadow spectres actually make that much difference? And make them worth their points? If so, how do you keep them alive long enough to get within 8" of a horde, and then not die afterwards?
They also get up to 3x S6 shots each if they keep hitting. Shadow Spectres are incredible. Not used Hawks yet but don't see any great uses for them. Tried Warp Spiders recently too and found them to be lacklustre. My list is built around Shining Spears, Shadow Spectres, Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers. The other aspect warriors are mostly thrown in for fun but not expected to do much.
How do you run the Spectres? Might be tempted to pick up a box of 5, if I can find a way to fit them into a wraith heavy list
Shadow spectres are a great all purpose speedy unit that is good for shielding your reapers from deep strikers on deployment and generally kicking the ass of most infantry out there. Swooping hawks are excellent at jumping down at IG and renegade mortar squads
Solitaires are for fun or if you really need a turn 1 charge (once a game they can move 36" and charge) otherwise your paying 117pts for 8 or 10 attacks when a Troupe is 20 attacks with Embraces for 105pts. So for 12 less points you gain 10 or 12 more attacks.
Shadow spectres range from really good on their own to ridiculous with psychic assistance.
As is they are manouverable and pack a punch. The swooping Hawks may have the advantage with rate of fire but the higher strength and ap of the spectres guns balance that out. With 3+ armour and -1 to hit they are as resilient an infantry as eldar get (apart from wraith guard).
Where they really shine is with psychic support. Both guide and ancestors grace really help their primary mode of fire, resulting in more hits which then means more attacks. Due to their high damage output and short range they are priority target 2 for word of the Phoenix to either move twice to get in position or to double salvo. And conceal from a warlock or hemlock stacks their shrouding to -2 to hit.
Then throw in doom and their Str 6 -3 ap shots can put some hurt on even the higher toughness targets.
I do wonder if the two wraith units are too big of a point sink, but I do like the models I have, so I would rather drop the serpents and have the wraithguard footslog than drop the wraiths... But it seems like the wraiths+serpent combo is a hard to beat combination.
I find 2 units of WG are fine at ~1500 points. Yes they are an investment but the D-scythe ones can handle most targets and opponents will fear to charge them because of their awesome overwatch. Wraithblades are good too and the sword version are the cheapest. Even so they are still 3 T5 wounds and a 3+ save. They will chop up most MEQs and are hard to shift if you get them into cover.
What is the opinion on Swooping Hawks vs Shadow Spectres? I've read a few posts where people are saying Spectres seem to be amazing, and our only real answer to hordes? but the only advantage I can see is the -1 to hit (which is very good obviously), but if you compare two units of 5 :
Swooping Hawks 85pts, 10 S3 shots at 24", 20 shots at 12", ability to deepstrike. 4+ save
Shadow Spectres 115 pts, 5 S6 shots at 18", 5D6 S5 shots at 8", slower movement and no deepstrike. 3+ save and -1 to hit.
So spectres have stronger shots, but less of them, unless they are within 8" then they average the same number of shots as the Hawks. Being that close means they're in danger of getting wiped next turn by a counter attack. Plus they have to get into that range, which would probably mean taking at least a unit of 10.
Hawks seem cheaper, and able to deepstrike into rapid fire range and unleash shots without losing models en route.
Does the extra strength of the shadow spectres actually make that much difference? And make them worth their points? If so, how do you keep them alive long enough to get within 8" of a horde, and then not die afterwards?
They also get up to 3x S6 shots each if they keep hitting. Shadow Spectres are incredible. Not used Hawks yet but don't see any great uses for them. Tried Warp Spiders recently too and found them to be lacklustre. My list is built around Shining Spears, Shadow Spectres, Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers. The other aspect warriors are mostly thrown in for fun but not expected to do much.
How do you run the Spectres? Might be tempted to pick up a box of 5, if I can find a way to fit them into a wraith heavy list
I run a medium sized 6 man unit buffed with Guide and Word of the Phoenix and a Doomed target. They absolutely wreck things!
My lists tend to contain the following in at least 2 detachments (Craftworld & Ynnari):
HQ:
Avatar Of Khaine
Autarch Skyrunner
Eldrad
Yvraine
I play in a fairly casual environment with mostly elite armies. There are ways I could make it more competitive, the Banshees/Scorpions/Fire Dragons for example rarely impress with my play style but I like my list to be thematic rather than going for maximum cheese. Currently 7 wins out of 7 though so it's working for me.
What is the opinion on Swooping Hawks vs Shadow Spectres? I've read a few posts where people are saying Spectres seem to be amazing, and our only real answer to hordes? but the only advantage I can see is the -1 to hit (which is very good obviously), but if you compare two units of 5 :
Swooping Hawks 85pts, 10 S3 shots at 24", 20 shots at 12", ability to deepstrike. 4+ save
Shadow Spectres 115 pts, 5 S6 shots at 18", 5D6 S5 shots at 8", slower movement and no deepstrike. 3+ save and -1 to hit.
So spectres have stronger shots, but less of them, unless they are within 8" then they average the same number of shots as the Hawks. Being that close means they're in danger of getting wiped next turn by a counter attack. Plus they have to get into that range, which would probably mean taking at least a unit of 10.
Hawks seem cheaper, and able to deepstrike into rapid fire range and unleash shots without losing models en route.
Does the extra strength of the shadow spectres actually make that much difference? And make them worth their points? If so, how do you keep them alive long enough to get within 8" of a horde, and then not die afterwards?
They also get up to 3x S6 shots each if they keep hitting. Shadow Spectres are incredible. Not used Hawks yet but don't see any great uses for them. Tried Warp Spiders recently too and found them to be lacklustre. My list is built around Shining Spears, Shadow Spectres, Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers. The other aspect warriors are mostly thrown in for fun but not expected to do much.
How do you run the Spectres? Might be tempted to pick up a box of 5, if I can find a way to fit them into a wraith heavy list
I run a medium sized 6 man unit buffed with Guide and Word of the Phoenix and a Doomed target. They absolutely wreck things!
My lists tend to contain the following in at least 2 detachments (Craftworld & Ynnari):
HQ:
Avatar Of Khaine
Autarch Skyrunner
Eldrad
Yvraine
I play in a fairly casual environment with mostly elite armies. There are ways I could make it more competitive, the Banshees/Scorpions/Fire Dragons for example rarely impress with my play style but I like my list to be thematic rather than going for maximum cheese. Currently 7 wins out of 7 though so it's working for me.
I totally agree with preferring a theme. It's why I'm thinking I might come up with two seperate army lists, as it's hard to fit the models I like into one list. I'd love to put an Avatar into my army, but with 800 points already in wraithguard units and their transports, it's hard to then spend 250 on an avatar that will be footslogging.
I'm considering removing the harlequin troupe + starweaver from my list plan, just because they are another big points sink and I'm not sure they're justified...
Solitaires are for fun or if you really need a turn 1 charge (once a game they can move 36" and charge) otherwise your paying 117pts for 8 or 10 attacks when a Troupe is 20 attacks with Embraces for 105pts. So for 12 less points you gain 10 or 12 more attacks.
Well, ok, for 12 less points you gain 10 attacks, but then you're left with 5 fragile models footslogging across the board, and will probably be dead long before they get anywhere near the enemy. To get them anywhere, you'd need a starweaver, which is another hundred points.
Solitaire is fast, and can't be targetted because it's a character. Though if the enemy do manage to target you, the solitaire is still relatively fragile.
It's Eldar though, most things are fragile!
Though I'm not sure where you got the "Move 36" and charge" from... You can move 12" + 3D6", then charge... so 15"-30", then 2D6 charge. Averages about a total of 28" threat range. Still pretty fast for a dude on foot!
Edit:
I'd love it if the wraithknight was cheaper, and/or that wraithlords had an updated model. The current one is so old, and the old chickenlegs static pose model just doesn't cut it compared to the modern models made today.
What is the opinion on Swooping Hawks vs Shadow Spectres? I've read a few posts where people are saying Spectres seem to be amazing, and our only real answer to hordes? but the only advantage I can see is the -1 to hit (which is very good obviously), but if you compare two units of 5 :
Swooping Hawks 85pts, 10 S3 shots at 24", 20 shots at 12", ability to deepstrike. 4+ save
Shadow Spectres 115 pts, 5 S6 shots at 18", 5D6 S5 shots at 8", slower movement and no deepstrike. 3+ save and -1 to hit.
So spectres have stronger shots, but less of them, unless they are within 8" then they average the same number of shots as the Hawks. Being that close means they're in danger of getting wiped next turn by a counter attack. Plus they have to get into that range, which would probably mean taking at least a unit of 10.
Hawks seem cheaper, and able to deepstrike into rapid fire range and unleash shots without losing models en route.
Does the extra strength of the shadow spectres actually make that much difference? And make them worth their points? If so, how do you keep them alive long enough to get within 8" of a horde, and then not die afterwards?
They also get up to 3x S6 shots each if they keep hitting. Shadow Spectres are incredible. Not used Hawks yet but don't see any great uses for them. Tried Warp Spiders recently too and found them to be lacklustre. My list is built around Shining Spears, Shadow Spectres, Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers. The other aspect warriors are mostly thrown in for fun but not expected to do much.
How do you run the Spectres? Might be tempted to pick up a box of 5, if I can find a way to fit them into a wraith heavy list
I run a medium sized 6 man unit buffed with Guide and Word of the Phoenix and a Doomed target. They absolutely wreck things!
My lists tend to contain the following in at least 2 detachments (Craftworld & Ynnari):
HQ:
Avatar Of Khaine
Autarch Skyrunner
Eldrad
Yvraine
I play in a fairly casual environment with mostly elite armies. There are ways I could make it more competitive, the Banshees/Scorpions/Fire Dragons for example rarely impress with my play style but I like my list to be thematic rather than going for maximum cheese. Currently 7 wins out of 7 though so it's working for me.
I totally agree with preferring a theme. It's why I'm thinking I might come up with two seperate army lists, as it's hard to fit the models I like into one list. I'd love to put an Avatar into my army, but with 800 points already in wraithguard units and their transports, it's hard to then spend 250 on an avatar that will be footslogging.
I'm considering removing the harlequin troupe + starweaver from my list plan, just because they are another big points sink and I'm not sure they're justified...
Solitaires are for fun or if you really need a turn 1 charge (once a game they can move 36" and charge) otherwise your paying 117pts for 8 or 10 attacks when a Troupe is 20 attacks with Embraces for 105pts. So for 12 less points you gain 10 or 12 more attacks.
Well, ok, for 12 less points you gain 10 attacks, but then you're left with 5 fragile models footslogging across the board, and will probably be dead long before they get anywhere near the enemy. To get them anywhere, you'd need a starweaver, which is another hundred points.
Solitaire is fast, and can't be targetted because it's a character. Though if the enemy do manage to target you, the solitaire is still relatively fragile.
It's Eldar though, most things are fragile!
Though I'm not sure where you got the "Move 36" and charge" from... You can move 12" + 3D6", then charge... so 15"-30", then 2D6 charge. Averages about a total of 28" threat range. Still pretty fast for a dude on foot!
Edit:
I'd love it if the wraithknight was cheaper, and/or that wraithlords had an updated model. The current one is so old, and the old chickenlegs static pose model just doesn't cut it compared to the modern models made today.
You dont blitz to move that far, you use a Shadowseer to double move, i did fast max in my head and miss add, its 31" then charge on average, but you get the idea.
I mean he is good, he can hide in a Troupes Starweaver now making him more worth it for sure. I just find that i a Troupe with Embraces and FP's is more rewarding and rather take more of those and him, he is very fun to play with.
I still use him time to time, but that past 4-5 games i haven't and i didnt miss him at all.
I'd love it if the wraithknight was cheaper, and/or that wraithlords had an updated model. The current one is so old, and the old chickenlegs static pose model just doesn't cut it compared to the modern models made today.
Buffing the Wraithknight would be good. It is currently over-priced by 80-100 points compared to Imperial Knights and they are hardly powerhouse models.
The Wraithlord IS a new model. :p. Look how much better it is than the old metal models.
I'd love it if the wraithknight was cheaper, and/or that wraithlords had an updated model. The current one is so old, and the old chickenlegs static pose model just doesn't cut it compared to the modern models made today.
Buffing the Wraithknight would be good. It is currently over-priced by 80-100 points compared to Imperial Knights and they are hardly powerhouse models.
The Wraithlord IS a new model. :p. Look how much better it is than the old metal models.
Well I mean yeh, it's newer than the old metal models... but it's still a very old model! I think I bought the plastic wraithlord I own 10 years ago or more. Shame there's no alternative models available from other companies. I don't dislkike the model exactly, it's just a bit plain and has weird hips. Could use a better sculpt imo
edit:
Also kinda infuriating that since the wraithlord plastic was released, the monkeighs have gained contemptor dreads, leviathan dreads, deredeo dreads, a bunch of tanks and superheavies, half a dozen or more Imperial Knights, the Dreadknight... I'm sure there's more, and that's just the vehicles. Eldar got the Wraithknight (currently unplayable, apparently), and... oh, shadow spectres. Orks got gorka+morkanaut. I think Tau got the most new stuff from battlesuit variations, but that still doesn't match the imperium options.
It's why I keep considering making an imperium army, just because they actually get new toys to play with.
Though I'm also seriously considering writing my own rules for units for Eldar, using Imperium models as a base. The rules would never be tournament legal obviously, but I only play friendly games.
Probably much easier to get non-gw alternatives for the aspects (with minor conversion to make them wysiwyg) than trying to convert a wraithlord. I don't think there's actually any alternative to buying the real thing. Except the FW wraithseer, which is marginally better I guess.
Though we should maybe make an up to date list of decent Eldar alternative models for different aspects etc. I remember seeing a couple old lists in the past, but they were mostly all broken links and models no longer being made.
Eldar got skatarch wraithknights and wraithseers.
Unfortunately imperium is such a large portion of the 40k market that it makes financial sense to give them more new toys.
Eldar did get corsair rules finally plus ynnari recently.
Wyldcarde wrote: Eldar got skatarch wraithknights and wraithseers.
Unfortunately imperium is such a large portion of the 40k market that it makes financial sense to give them more new toys.
Eldar did get corsair rules finally plus ynnari recently.
I did remember the skatarch, but I thought they were identical to normal wraithknights but with a new gun option... I assume they're also overpriced, if they're the same as wraithknights? Or is there a difference I didn't notice?
Wyldcarde wrote: Eldar got skatarch wraithknights and wraithseers.
Unfortunately imperium is such a large portion of the 40k market that it makes financial sense to give them more new toys.
Eldar did get corsair rules finally plus ynnari recently.
Scout Walkers
Knights (Destroyer, Bright Stallion, etc)
War Walkers
Rangers
Knight riders
world seers
Hunters
Megadons
Scouts
Carnasaurs
Warp Gates
Wraith Towers
and more
This is why i think GW is slowed when it comes to making money, they literally could make 1 box of 2-3 spurs, sell it for 50$ as an upgrade box to make Exodites, give them 1 army rule and 2-3 stratagems boom! money for years, and happy players.
Wyldcarde wrote: Eldar got skatarch wraithknights and wraithseers.
Unfortunately imperium is such a large portion of the 40k market that it makes financial sense to give them more new toys.
Eldar did get corsair rules finally plus ynnari recently.
I did remember the skatarch, but I thought they were identical to normal wraithknights but with a new gun option... I assume they're also overpriced, if they're the same as wraithknights? Or is there a difference I didn't notice?
Wyldcarde wrote: Eldar got skatarch wraithknights and wraithseers.
Unfortunately imperium is such a large portion of the 40k market that it makes financial sense to give them more new toys.
Eldar did get corsair rules finally plus ynnari recently.
I did remember the skatarch, but I thought they were identical to normal wraithknights but with a new gun option... I assume they're also overpriced, if they're the same as wraithknights? Or is there a difference I didn't notice?
They can also deep strike.
Yeh I noticed that after I compared their stats/rules. I actually thought wraithknights had a deepstrike or teleport ability, but I may have been thinking of dreadknights. Still not sure about their usefullness, though the deepstrike helps I guess.
I've been messing around with bringing Dark reapers with a tempest launcher. A 3-man squad with a tempest launcher comes out to 115pts, and the exarch has 2d6 shots at S4, -2AP re-rolling 1's to hit, that don't need LOS to the target. The squad can hide behind large terrain pieces until it's advantageous to move out and shoot the other reaper launchers. This way you don't have to try and stick them in a wave serpent, and it leaves yvraine open to using word of the phoenix on other targets. Plus they don't need an autarch or guide from a farseer because the exarch already re-rolls 1's to hit
I ran them as 3 x 3 dark reapers each with a tempest launcher exarch. They put out some steady damage and were able to target key units that I normally didn't have the range to or couldn't see. Even after they got shot at and one squad died, another neighboring dark reaper squad got a free shot with its tempest launcher due to the soulburst. I thought they were great because they required no psychic buffs, and they added some much needed anti-infantry fire power to my list.
Has anyone else tried using MSU dark reapers with tempest launchers?
That's an interesting idea. Though Tempest launcher still only comes out at average of 3-4 kills a turn, plus another 2-3 from the reaper launchers. That's 5-7 kills a turn. Not bad. Does open up ability to fire at targets you can't normally engage.
Down side for me personally is the narrowness of the Tempest launcher compared to the Reaper launcher and the fact that not needing los is in conflict with what the other Reapers are trying to do.
Might try it though, I'm guessing mileage on this approach can be a bit mixed, but certainly less vulnerable than the traditional larger units trying to max out on the SfD.
The Tempest Launcher is basically an auto-pick regardless of what your plan otherwise is for the squad. You only ever prefer a Reaper Launcher against T8 and even then it's not terrible. An Exarch with a Tempest Launcher is so much better than a regular Dark Reaper that you should absolutely only ever be bringing minimum squads unless you have a plan to get Soulbursts out of them.
One option would be to bring 2 small squads alongside a big squad. Your opponent can't kill the little squads because they'll trigger a Soulburst on the big squad, meaning that you get more mileage out of the Exarchs, and the big squad is of course receiving WotP every turn until it gets whittled down.
I'm not convinced of the usefulness of the tempest launcher. It's a good anti infantry gun but it goes against the back field anti tank I would use them for. Lower range and much lower danage.
I've tended to run with the standard Reaper Launcher on my Exarch but that could be sue to the abundance of 2 wound units fielded by alot of my opponents. I find the extra strength, damage and range pretty useful (that and the 7 less points).
Do we know what Codex is out after Guard between us and Nids? We need some love!
DivineVisitor wrote: I've tended to run with the standard Reaper Launcher on my Exarch but that could be sue to the abundance of 2 wound units fielded by alot of my opponents. I find the extra strength, damage and range pretty useful (that and the 7 less points).
Do we know what Codex is out after Guard between us and Nids? We need some love!
It should be Eldar or Nids next let's hope for the Craftworlds time to shine!
DivineVisitor wrote: I've tended to run with the standard Reaper Launcher on my Exarch but that could be sue to the abundance of 2 wound units fielded by alot of my opponents. I find the extra strength, damage and range pretty useful (that and the 7 less points).
Do we know what Codex is out after Guard between us and Nids? We need some love!
Unless the range advantage is decisive, the Tempest Launcher is probably worth it even if you're commonly seeing multi-wound stuff (below T8). An Exarch with the TL expects 1.8 wounds on T4. An Exarch with a RL expects 1.4 damage against T4 W2. And the TL benefits more from Doom. This is arguably not worth it if you're expecting the Reapers to take a lot of fire before they get to shoot a couple times, since obviously the squad is more expensive, but tbh if you're expecting your Reapers not to get a chance to shoot more than once you probably shouldn't be taking Reapers. Plus the TL makes the Exarch a pretty efficient answer to hordes, which is something Eldar struggle with. The Exarch with TL is actually a slightly more efficient answer to GEQs than even a Guardian Defender, which is otherwise our best option, mathhammer-wise, but has the problem of needing to get close enough to do anything. I think I would only bring a RL on the Exarch if my plan was to allocate single-wound hits to the Exarch first so as to maximize the number of reaper launchers firing next turn.
In my testing I actually preferred the Eldar Missile Launcher. Keeps some of the flexibility.
Still has the single shot option, and has a D6 shot option with the longer range. Yes you need LOS but then you need LOS for your other Reapers anyway otherwise your wasting their points, and the extra range is useful.
And it's cheaper than the RL so fair bit cheaper than the TL.
Drake003 wrote: In my testing I actually preferred the Eldar Missile Launcher. Keeps some of the flexibility.
Still has the single shot option, and has a D6 shot option with the longer range. Yes you need LOS but then you need LOS for your other Reapers anyway otherwise your wasting their points, and the extra range is useful.
And it's cheaper than the RL so fair bit cheaper than the TL.
This is it right here AML for my exarchs... it's cheaper than the other options and provides great flexibility.
I hadn't actually considered the AML. It certainly looks a lot better than the Reaper Launcher as a way to give your Exarch a little punch while still letting you use him to tank the first single-damage hits you take.
I'm actually a little tempted now to try a Shuriken Cannon on the Exarch. With that the Exarch is 17 points for 2 T3 3+ wounds, probably in cover. The squad is hugely more resilient in the face of heavy bolter or assault cannon fire at that point. Probably the AML is still better as a compromise, though.
Uriels_Flame wrote: Anyone used Corsair bikers with desonance cannons or dark lances? They are interesting me currently but at this point the EML is tops for me.
Missile Launcher isn't an option on Corsair Bikes.
One thing that's occurred to me with the back-and-forth on the Reaper exarch that I thought worth bringing to the thread's attention for the purposes of future planning; will the shuriken cannon option survive to the codex? I don't believe the current kit has it and whilst I've not followed the various N&R threads as closely as I could, I have seen a few moans that particular upgrades or even units have been quietly dropped as "No Model No Rules". In fact, we could extend this across the range, I think only Avengers and possibly Dragons have all the exarch options in the box, don't they? (Disclaimer - my Hawks are old metal ones, so I'm not sure about them).
Perhaps not strictly speaking "tactics" and I know that "Grandfather rights via Index" exist, but it may be something to bear in mind.
Yes, Rangers are the worst snipers in the game, as far as I know, and snipers are generally bad. Ratlings are pretty good, but that's about it outside of FW, where there are also Elysian snipers. Craftworld Eldar don't really have a Troops choice that's at all worthwhile other than Guardian Defenders in a Serpent.
Dionysodorus wrote: Yes, Rangers are the worst snipers in the game, as far as I know, and snipers are generally bad. Ratlings are pretty good, but that's about it outside of FW, where there are also Elysian snipers. Craftworld Eldar don't really have a Troops choice that's at all worthwhile other than Guardian Defenders in a Serpent.
I just read the Elysian Sniper entry (though this isn't really Eldar related haha), but I can't see how they're better than ratlings...
Elysians get +1T and +1W, and a Lasgun that means they could shoot two weapons in that turn which is interesting... and they both end up with a 4+ in cover... but they lose the ability to move after shooting, and... huh
Elysians Snipers are 3 power for 3 models, Ratlings are 2 Power for 5 models... but in points, they're both 7 points per model. So in points, Elysians are great.
Weird.
But not Eldar related haha.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
To add some more Eldar related questions -
1) Which of these Wraithlord loadouts would you think are better on the table?
Or some other combination? Dropping flamers for catapults saves 18 points, though in the past flamers were always the better option. However keeping them as cheap 113 point melee monsters has it's own advantages.
I'd be running it with a D-Cannon Wraithseer probably, and there would be 2 D-Scythe wraithguard squads on the table too in serpents so...
Question 2)
If there were 3 wraithguard units on the table, 2x D-Scythe units and 1x Wraithblades unit, and you only had two wave serpents, which two units would you put in serpents and what would you do with the third? (Same army as the one above, so there would be a couple Lords on the table too).
In regards to the Rangers points efficacy, they really are not worth the points in the Index. They do not cause enough damage for their points investment, if they deploy forward to slow down DS they just get overwhelmed by enemies 1st turn shooting and allows them to springboard up the board with an assault move. You need to be spending 180pts just to cause an average of 1 Mortal wound. Guns do not have sufficient rate of fire or AP to threaten even the weakest of enemy characters.
With regards to the previous poster, in a list like you have described I would leave the Wraithblades to footslog. The D-Scythes will be more of a threat to your opponent so you need to protect them more. And seeing as your army is a close up one, it's biggest weakness when it's working will be melee units assaulting you, at which point the blades make a good counter assault unit.
Wraithlords are best either as bare bones for cheapest points investment, or with double flamers for anti assault loadout. Main weapons depends entire on role. If you moving up the board then Shurikan Cannons as they done suffer the -1 to hit. If they are more backfield gun posts, then the Heavy weapon of your choice depending on what your army needs more of. In this instance catapults are best on the arms to save points unless you are expecting more than 1 or 2 DS units in your backfield.
Drake003 wrote: In regards to the Rangers points efficacy, they really are not worth the points in the Index. They do not cause enough damage for their points investment, if they deploy forward to slow down DS they just get overwhelmed by enemies 1st turn shooting and allows them to springboard up the board with an assault move. You need to be spending 180pts just to cause an average of 1 Mortal wound. Guns do not have sufficient rate of fire or AP to threaten even the weakest of enemy characters.
With regards to the previous poster, in a list like you have described I would leave the Wraithblades to footslog. The D-Scythes will be more of a threat to your opponent so you need to protect them more. And seeing as your army is a close up one, it's biggest weakness when it's working will be melee units assaulting you, at which point the blades make a good counter assault unit.
Wraithlords are best either as bare bones for cheapest points investment, or with double flamers for anti assault loadout. Main weapons depends entire on role. If you moving up the board then Shurikan Cannons as they done suffer the -1 to hit. If they are more backfield gun posts, then the Heavy weapon of your choice depending on what your army needs more of. In this instance catapults are best on the arms to save points unless you are expecting more than 1 or 2 DS units in your backfield.
I'm a little confused... you say the best loadout is either bare bones, or with a double flamer, but then go on to say that you should add main weapons lol. So you pretty much say that all possible loadouts are the best! Haha
I'm a little confused... you say the best loadout is either bare bones, or with a double flamer, but then go on to say that you should add main weapons lol. So you pretty much say that all possible loadouts are the best! Haha
Lol. It's all about application. How your going to use them and the context of the other elements of your army. Bare bones is great if your using as meat shield for character, or to tie up scouts etc. Flamers are best employed if being very aggressive or against an army with a number of deepstrike units, especially those that rely on infantry choices for this. Shoulder Weapons only if you need the extra firepower, and in which case Cannons when moving up the field, otherwise whichever weapon option you need depending on any gaps in your army, such as Scatter Lasers if you need more horde killing and want to keep away from them or bright lance if you need more anti tank, Missile Launcher for an all rounder.
It's not as simple as a "best option" as it is very contextual, especially with Eldar which has alway been a bit of a jigsaw army, where each piece has a specific role and you need the right balance to get the whole to come together.
I'm a little confused... you say the best loadout is either bare bones, or with a double flamer, but then go on to say that you should add main weapons lol. So you pretty much say that all possible loadouts are the best! Haha
Lol. It's all about application. How your going to use them and the context of the other elements of your army. Bare bones is great if your using as meat shield for character, or to tie up scouts etc. Flamers are best employed if being very aggressive or against an army with a number of deepstrike units, especially those that rely on infantry choices for this. Shoulder Weapons only if you need the extra firepower, and in which case Cannons when moving up the field, otherwise whichever weapon option you need depending on any gaps in your army, such as Scatter Lasers if you need more horde killing and want to keep away from them or bright lance if you need more anti tank, Missile Launcher for an all rounder.
It's not as simple as a "best option" as it is very contextual, especially with Eldar which has alway been a bit of a jigsaw army, where each piece has a specific role and you need the right balance to get the whole to come together.
Ahh, that makes sense. It's a shame that the wraithseer is a 12 wound character, and so cant be hidden from attacks. Tempting to run an Avatar though, though it would mean not running a Ynnari army. Probably something to plan for after the codex is out.
Edit: Actually, I could run an Avatar in a seperate detachment, which means I could add in a couple units to back it up, perhaps ones that also don't benefit from Ynnari. Not sure it's particularly optimal though.
I really like the idea of the Wraithseer but for me it just isn't tough enough or impactful enough when factoring in that it cannot hide like most characters.
Avatar certainly can, but then whole nature of the army would change as he is a lot slower than much of the other Eldar units, so to get best use out of him, he actually would slow down your force. You could work around that by doing things like harassing enemy flanks whilst sending him down the middle, and only committing to fully engaging enemy when he is in melee range, though that is probably making your army and tactics unnecessarily narrow.
I think Avatar may have more application once the Codex comes out. If they make guardians catapults longer range or more shots, or reduce the guardians points, then they become more viable to field outside of WaveSerpent. At that point, Avatar supporting an infantry attack, backed up by Wraithlord/ melee units will make a lot more sense. For now imho I don't think he adds enough to justify the change in tactics and dynamics to include him.
This is the core of the army I'm considering. I already have the two serpents and the two wraithguard squads and the HQ's, would just need a wraithfighter and wraithblades.
What do you think? What would be needed to round out the list? Considering harlequins in a starweaver, or wraithlords (though not sure if they will fulfil a need?) and not sure what else.
You definitely want a third wave serpent for the wraithguard. And then could pick up a second hemlock. With the points left over then just stick to the mech theme and grab a nightspinner.
Wyldcarde wrote: You definitely want a third wave serpent for the wraithguard. And then could pick up a second hemlock. With the points left over then just stick to the mech theme and grab a nightspinner.
Interesting... never really thought about a night spinner, or seen it mentioned much on here. Didnt really know much about it. Indirect fire in eldar is an odd one
I'd love it if the wraithknight was cheaper, and/or that wraithlords had an updated model. The current one is so old, and the old chickenlegs static pose model just doesn't cut it compared to the modern models made today.
Buffing the Wraithknight would be good. It is currently over-priced by 80-100 points compared to Imperial Knights and they are hardly powerhouse models.
The Wraithlord IS a new model. :p. Look how much better it is than the old metal models.
Well I mean yeh, it's newer than the old metal models... but it's still a very old model! I think I bought the plastic wraithlord I own 10 years ago or more. Shame there's no alternative models available from other companies. I don't dislkike the model exactly, it's just a bit plain and has weird hips. Could use a better sculpt imo
edit:
Also kinda infuriating that since the wraithlord plastic was released, the monkeighs have gained contemptor dreads, leviathan dreads, deredeo dreads, a bunch of tanks and superheavies, half a dozen or more Imperial Knights, the Dreadknight... I'm sure there's more, and that's just the vehicles. Eldar got the Wraithknight (currently unplayable, apparently), and... oh, shadow spectres. Orks got gorka+morkanaut. I think Tau got the most new stuff from battlesuit variations, but that still doesn't match the imperium options.
It's why I keep considering making an imperium army, just because they actually get new toys to play with.
Though I'm also seriously considering writing my own rules for units for Eldar, using Imperium models as a base. The rules would never be tournament legal obviously, but I only play friendly games.
A bit late, but the Wraithlord is actually quite easy to repose, and can be made to look much ncooler than the bland, boring thing on the box. My Wraithlord is running, all that was needed was cutting and reassembling one leg at the knee to bend it, and then greenstuffing the gaps.
The finecast aspect warriors are what actually needs resculpts, as well as the Phoenix Lords if they actually want people to like them.
Wyldcarde wrote: You definitely want a third wave serpent for the wraithguard. And then could pick up a second hemlock. With the points left over then just stick to the mech theme and grab a nightspinner.
Interesting... never really thought about a night spinner, or seen it mentioned much on here. Didnt really know much about it. Indirect fire in eldar is an odd one
Considering dropping one of the D-Scythe squads, and having some different units in there instead. Jetbikes maybe...
I'm new to Craftworld Eldar, in another thread people steered me in the direction of some good units, this is what I've been working with:
2 Wave Serpents
10 Wraithguard/blades (magnetized)
Wraithlord
Farseer
2 Warlocks
3 War Walkers
4 Dark Reapers w/ Exarch
Hemlock Wraithfighter
So far I'm 2-1 in my group's small 1000 point beginner games, 2-0 vs. Chaos and lost to nids due to underestimating charge range. It's been fun.
I was thinking of trying out Ynnari. A few people at the LFGS have mentioned taking an Ynnari HQ then using Kabalite Warriors as cheap troop choices. I haven't found much info on using Kabalite Warriors on this forum, what will these do for my army if I include them? Are they fodder to activate SfD?
Also, I've been using Wraithguards with Ghostblades, I haven't been using D-Scythes, I suppose I'm just too afraid of the short range. All my Wraithguard are going into the Wave Serpents, but even then I'm not sure how to disembark them effectively. Any basic tips?
Discodoggy wrote: I'm new to Craftworld Eldar, in another thread people steered me in the direction of some good units, this is what I've been working with:
2 Wave Serpents
10 Wraithguard/blades (magnetized)
Wraithlord
Farseer
2 Warlocks
3 War Walkers
4 Dark Reapers w/ Exarch
Hemlock Wraithfighter
So far I'm 2-1 in my group's small 1000 point beginner games, 2-0 vs. Chaos and lost to nids due to underestimating charge range. It's been fun.
I was thinking of trying out Ynnari. A few people at the LFGS have mentioned taking an Ynnari HQ then using Kabalite Warriors as cheap troop choices. I haven't found much info on using Kabalite Warriors on this forum, what will these do for my army if I include them? Are they fodder to activate SfD?
Also, I've been using Wraithguards with Ghostblades, I haven't been using D-Scythes, I suppose I'm just too afraid of the short range. All my Wraithguard are going into the Wave Serpents, but even then I'm not sure how to disembark them effectively. Any basic tips?
I think the kabalite are used as a cheap source of troops, but you can't put them in wave serpents so you'd have to buy raiders in order to get them mobile which pumps up their points significantly. Raiders are good transports though, but would take up points you might want to spend on craftworld units. You could run them on foot though and just use them to stop deepstrikers attacking from the rear, and holding objectives in your deployment zone.
They'd only activate SfD if they die, and then only be useful if one of your units was within 6" of them when they die... might be able to use a squad of them to bubblewrap some dark reapers? Or your war walkers... but I don't think they get soulburst so it doesnt help much.
Edit:
Currently on the lookout for alternative models for war walkers... the best I have found so far are the warjacks from Retribution of Scryah, but they're not quite... right... So if anyone has any ideas, do let me know
Yeah kabalite Warriors are there as a cheap troop tax for battalion. I run basic 5 man squads which then are either a bubble wrap, soulburst fodder or backfield objective holders.
If you want to get mileage out of them you can always put them in venoms. Being open topped they spew out a chunk of shots and are difficult to kill.
D-scythe wraithguard seem to be the optimal choice out of a wave serpent. That gives them a surprising threat range of 3+5+d6+8 inches as they disembark and advance without penalty thanks to autohit from dscythe. Plus if ynnari can wotp them to move twice if out of range, tho hopefully they are in position that they can soulburst to shoot twice.
I actually run 2 of my Kabalite units in Venoms. Makes them more relevant and Venoms are great at capturing objectives. Third unit hangs back on foot to keep my home objective covered. Plus I really like the Venom model.
Also, wraithblades have a shorter threat range than the D-Scythe guard and are less flexible. So I wouldn't worry about their threat range when comparing to the blades unit. D-Scythes have the added benefit of auto hitting from overwatch unless enemy charges from outside 8".
I was thinking of trying out Ynnari. A few people at the LFGS have mentioned taking an Ynnari HQ then using Kabalite Warriors as cheap troop choices. I haven't found much info on using Kabalite Warriors on this forum, what will these do for my army if I include them? Are they fodder to activate SfD?
Yvraine is the HQ you want, she is a good psyker and the bring the crucial power "Word of the Phoenix" to give you an additional Soulburst action in your psychic phase. Good candidates for this free Soul Burst are long ranged units like Dark Reapers who may not get close enough to Soulburst otherwise.
Kabailtes in a Raider are a much more effective Troop choice than anything Craftworlders have in their arsenal. The Kabalites can stay inside the Raider and still fire thanks to its open-topped rule. This pretty much overcomes the downside of Eldar Troops being so squishy. Load them up with as much splinter as possible and put a Dark Lance on the Raider for a bit of anti-tank. You opponent has to burn through the transport to get to the Troops inside but they can fire at him just fine. Kabalites are not really SfD fodder, they are actually a pretty respectable Troop choice that helps fill slots in your Battallion.
Raiders are hardly indestructible but they are just tough enough to require more effort to bring down than your opponent will want to dedicate to a simple Troop transport.
Also, I've been using Wraithguards with Ghostblades, I haven't been using D-Scythes, I suppose I'm just too afraid of the short range. All my Wraithguard are going into the Wave Serpents, but even then I'm not sure how to disembark them effectively. Any basic tips?
I tend to play my Wraithguard fairly aggressively and equip them with D-scythes. Load them into a Serpent with 3 Shuircannons and head straight for the enemy. You can move without compromising your firepower as the Shuricannons are Assault 3 and the Serpent Shield will help keep them alive. Aim to end your move around 14"" of your chosen target at the end of your first movement phase (not hard with Serpents). Your opponent now has a dilemma. He knows that those D-scythes will inflict a lot of damage so he either has to pull back (which may mean leaving a good position or an objective), try to destroy the Serpent and cargo or just grin and bear it.
Shooting down a Serpent in one turn is not easy and 2 is really hard. Having enough guns left over to deal with the WG? Unlikely. If your opponent backs away he will potentially be abandoning cover or objectives. Also he will quickly run of table. If he moves back, keep the WG in their Serpent and move forward into a threatening position.
You only need to be within 14" to threaten a target. With a 3" disembark, 5" move and 8" range, your D-scythes have a 16" threat range from the front of the Serpent. Also if necessary they can advance an extra D6" as the D-scythes auto-hit. 14" is a good distance because it also makes it hard for an opponent to assault. With a 6" move, he will still need to roll an 8 for his charge distanvce meaning he will fail more than half the time. And if he assaults your Serpent, it is not the end of the world as few units are strong enough to kill one in a single round. In your next turn, the WG get out and hose whatever charged their ride while the Serpent withdraws and can still shoot thanks to Fly.
Alternatively, if you are feeling aggressive, get right up in your opponent's face. Even if he backs away, he will not be able to get out of range of the D-scythes.
If you have a couple of Serpents going for your opponent's throat, some Raiders with Kabalites flitting about at medium range and some Reapers in the backfield raining fire on the enemy, your opponent will have no good options as everything in your army is pretty killy and at least moderatelty durable.
I was thinking of trying out Ynnari. A few people at the LFGS have mentioned taking an Ynnari HQ then using Kabalite Warriors as cheap troop choices. I haven't found much info on using Kabalite Warriors on this forum, what will these do for my army if I include them? Are they fodder to activate SfD?
Yvraine is the HQ you want, she is a good psyker and the bring the crucial power "Word of the Phoenix" to give you an additional Soulburst action in your psychic phase. Good candidates for this free Soul Burst are long ranged units like Dark Reapers who may not get close enough to Soulburst otherwise.
Kabailtes in a Raider are a much more effective Troop choice than anything Craftworlders have in their arsenal. The Kabalites can stay inside the Raider and still fire thanks to its open-topped rule. This pretty much overcomes the downside of Eldar Troops being so squishy. Load them up with as much splinter as possible and put a Dark Lance on the Raider for a bit of anti-tank. You opponent has to burn through the transport to get to the Troops inside but they can fire at him just fine. Kabalites are not really SfD fodder, they are actually a pretty respectable Troop choice that helps fill slots in your Battallion.
Raiders are hardly indestructible but they are just tough enough to require more effort to bring down than your opponent will want to dedicate to a simple Troop transport.
Also, I've been using Wraithguards with Ghostblades, I haven't been using D-Scythes, I suppose I'm just too afraid of the short range. All my Wraithguard are going into the Wave Serpents, but even then I'm not sure how to disembark them effectively. Any basic tips?
I tend to play my Wraithguard fairly aggressively and equip them with D-scythes. Load them into a Serpent with 3 Shuircannons and head straight for the enemy. You can move without compromising your firepower as the Shuricannons are Assault 3 and the Serpent Shield will help keep them alive. Aim to end your move around 14"" of your chosen target at the end of your first movement phase (not hard with Serpents). Your opponent now has a dilemma. He knows that those D-scythes will inflict a lot of damage so he either has to pull back (which may mean leaving a good position or an objective), try to destroy the Serpent and cargo or just grin and bear it.
Shooting down a Serpent in one turn is not easy and 2 is really hard. Having enough guns left over to deal with the WG? Unlikely. If your opponent backs away he will potentially be abandoning cover or objectives. Also he will quickly run of table. If he moves back, keep the WG in their Serpent and move forward into a threatening position.
You only need to be within 14" to threaten a target. With a 3" disembark, 5" move and 8" range, your D-scythes have a 16" threat range from the front of the Serpent. Also if necessary they can advance an extra D6" as the D-scythes auto-hit. 14" is a good distance because it also makes it hard for an opponent to assault. With a 6" move, he will still need to roll an 8 for his charge distanvce meaning he will fail more than half the time. And if he assaults your Serpent, it is not the end of the world as few units are strong enough to kill one in a single round. In your next turn, the WG get out and hose whatever charged their ride while the Serpent withdraws and can still shoot thanks to Fly.
Alternatively, if you are feeling aggressive, get right up in your opponent's face. Even if he backs away, he will not be able to get out of range of the D-scythes.
If you have a couple of Serpents going for your opponent's throat, some Raiders with Kabalites flitting about at medium range and some Reapers in the backfield raining fire on the enemy, your opponent will have no good options as everything in your army is pretty killy and at least moderatelty durable.
Thanks! I will give this a shot with my WS and WG next time.
Would you keep Yvraine in the back for the reapers in most cases?
What is the current top unit for anti-tank and anti-big things?
The three units I'm looking at are Reapers, War Walkers and Hornets, as they seem to be the ones that are the shooty gun platforms for eldar (also the actual gun platforms, but I'm not a fan of the models really, and they seem lackluster, but if you prefer them please say why )
War Walkers get a 5+ invulnerable, and so are pretty tough and can carry two heavy weapons. Being able to squadron means good use of guide etc too I guess.
Hornets are even tougher, and the -1 to hit is better than the 5+ invulnerable of walkers, but they only get it if they advance which mean no heavy weapons - shuriken cannons only. Which seems a waste. Nice models though.
Reapers. The most fragile, but highly accurate and so should be able to do a decent amount of damage. Not sure on the maths yet as to whether they do more or less damage than the other options for the points, but they do seem more fragile and more easily killed off.
So what do people get? I am finding that the only anti-tank in my list is D-Scythes, which are probably better off aimed at big infantry or even hordes than trying to get them in tank killing range..
Niiru wrote: What is the current top unit for anti-tank and anti-big things?
The three units I'm looking at are Reapers, War Walkers and Hornets, as they seem to be the ones that are the shooty gun platforms for eldar (also the actual gun platforms, but I'm not a fan of the models really, and they seem lackluster, but if you prefer them please say why )
War Walkers get a 5+ invulnerable, and so are pretty tough and can carry two heavy weapons. Being able to squadron means good use of guide etc too I guess.
Hornets are even tougher, and the -1 to hit is better than the 5+ invulnerable of walkers, but they only get it if they advance which mean no heavy weapons - shuriken cannons only. Which seems a waste. Nice models though.
Reapers. The most fragile, but highly accurate and so should be able to do a decent amount of damage. Not sure on the maths yet as to whether they do more or less damage than the other options for the points, but they do seem more fragile and more easily killed off.
So what do people get? I am finding that the only anti-tank in my list is D-Scythes, which are probably better off aimed at big infantry or even hordes than trying to get them in tank killing range..
Hemlocks are very good for killing tanks. Absent any enemy psykers, a Hemlock that can get close to a tank expects about 7 wounds on it, paying about 31 points per inflicted wound. This is better than a Dark Reaper, who pays about 41 points per inflicted wound (vs T7 3+). The Hemlock's major drawback is its range, but it's still very solid. Reapers tend to benefit more from various support units, however.
I do not like War Walkers or Hornets. Even War Walkers with bright lances are slightly less efficient than Hemlocks as long as they don't have Guide, and the Hemlocks are also great against lots of other targets while the War Walkers are far less durable.
I think the best ranged anti-tank Eldar unit other than Dark Reapers is the Crimson Hunter. They shoot about as well as War Walkers per point vs ground targets and are better than even Hemlocks against skimmers, and they're significantly more durable than War Walkers. However, they don't get much out of Guide since they have BS2+ and generally shoot at -1.
What is the current top unit for anti-tank and anti-big things?
The three units I'm looking at are Reapers, War Walkers and Hornets, as they seem to be the ones that are the shooty gun platforms for eldar (also the actual gun platforms, but I'm not a fan of the models really, and they seem lackluster, but if you prefer them please say why )
War Walkers get a 5+ invulnerable, and so are pretty tough and can carry two heavy weapons. Being able to squadron means good use of guide etc too I guess.
Hornets are even tougher, and the -1 to hit is better than the 5+ invulnerable of walkers, but they only get it if they advance which mean no heavy weapons - shuriken cannons only. Which seems a waste. Nice models though.
Reapers. The most fragile, but highly accurate and so should be able to do a decent amount of damage. Not sure on the maths yet as to whether they do more or less damage than the other options for the points, but they do seem more fragile and more easily killed off.
So what do people get? I am finding that the only anti-tank in my list is D-Scythes, which are probably better off aimed at big infantry or even hordes than trying to get them in tank killing range..
Hemlocks are very good for killing tanks. Absent any enemy psykers, a Hemlock that can get close to a tank expects about 7 wounds on it, paying about 31 points per inflicted wound. This is better than a Dark Reaper, who pays about 41 points per inflicted wound (vs T7 3+). The Hemlock's major drawback is its range, but it's still very solid. Reapers tend to benefit more from various support units, however.
I do not like War Walkers or Hornets. Even War Walkers with bright lances are slightly less efficient than Hemlocks as long as they don't have Guide, and the Hemlocks are also great against lots of other targets while the War Walkers are far less durable.
I think the best ranged anti-tank Eldar unit other than Dark Reapers is the Crimson Hunter. They shoot about as well as War Walkers per point vs ground targets and are better than even Hemlocks against skimmers, and they're significantly more durable than War Walkers. However, they don't get much out of Guide since they have BS2+ and generally shoot at -1.
Thanks for the write up I've been considering war walkers just because I thought they were meant to be good on the table, but I'm not a fan of the models so I'd have to do a conversion... I already had a Hemlock planned for the list though, so maybe war walkers aren't worth it. Hadn't considered a crimson hunter at all...
DarknessEternal wrote:
Niiru wrote: What is the current top unit for anti-tank and anti-big things?
Brightlance Wave Serpents.
Really? I have 2 serpents in my list, but I have them geared up with shuriken cannons so that they can advance and still shoot. I hadn't thought putting bright lances on them was considered points-efficient... though I hadn't really considered it too much
I put bright lances on serpents to make target priority harder when the unit they transport is not very threatening (read: guardians). When carrying wraithguard you are already a target and also possibly advancing, so shurikens all the way.
A twin blance serpent is slightly under 160 points, nowhere near efficient enough to be the primary source. They are a decent addition to my anti-tank firepower.
I don't really like lances on Serpents since I pretty much always want to be moving with them, so that's an immediate -25% efficiency. My opponent has to deal with the Serpents anyway since they're going to be right in his face charging everything.
Dionysodorus wrote: I don't really like lances on Serpents since I pretty much always want to be moving with them, so that's an immediate -25% efficiency. My opponent has to deal with the Serpents anyway since they're going to be right in his face charging everything.
My two serpents will always be wraithguard carriers, which is why I'm looking for what to do with the rest of my points haha.
I considered walkers or hornets for gun platforms, but I'm wondering if maybe I'll just go all-in on close range and put in some jetbikes / harlequins with fusion pistols in a starweaver.
I don't want to derail the anti-tank discussion, as I think it's an important one, but I want to ask something else at the same time, so I'll put them both in this post so people can follow on with either/both
1) What are your anti-tank choices, and how much is necessary in a TAC list?
I currently have 2 units of D-Scythes in triple-shuricannon serpents, so while it's close-range damage they can still damage most units and vehicles. I have a wraithfighter too, and am considering a squad of fusion-troupe in a starweaver. Not sure if thats enough, or too much, or actually should be aimed at different targets entirely haha.
Other peoples choices so far have been to add Bright Lances to wave serpents, but I don't think that's good for me as they're already expensive targets with the wraiths on board.
2)
I know an Avatar is not currently the most optimal choice (but then neither is a lot of the cool options in armies right now haha) as it is a slow footslogging unit, but IF you were to run one, what would be the best couple of units to run with it as support?
Niiru wrote: I don't want to derail the anti-tank discussion, as I think it's an important one, but I want to ask something else at the same time, so I'll put them both in this post so people can follow on with either/both
1) What are your anti-tank choices, and how much is necessary in a TAC list?
I currently have 2 units of D-Scythes in triple-shuricannon serpents, so while it's close-range damage they can still damage most units and vehicles. I have a wraithfighter too, and am considering a squad of fusion-troupe in a starweaver. Not sure if thats enough, or too much, or actually should be aimed at different targets entirely haha.
Other peoples choices so far have been to add Bright Lances to wave serpents, but I don't think that's good for me as they're already expensive targets with the wraiths on board.
2)
I know an Avatar is not currently the most optimal choice (but then neither is a lot of the cool options in armies right now haha) as it is a slow footslogging unit, but IF you were to run one, what would be the best couple of units to run with it as support?
I run the Avatar in nearly all my games. I rush up with two Wave Serpents with mounted Wraithguard and that Avatar moves and advances up with them. I have lost the Avatar once in 7 games and I give him the +1 attack Warlord trait. What makes him a bit sneaky for opponents is the rerool for assault range and rolling two dice and picking highest on damage. He makes it into assault and has done very well for me.
My army is a bit low in model count so I tend to play aggressive. However, I am yet to play against Astra Militarum or other high model count armies, which may impact the effectiveness of the Avatar.
Niiru wrote: I don't want to derail the anti-tank discussion, as I think it's an important one, but I want to ask something else at the same time, so I'll put them both in this post so people can follow on with either/both
1) What are your anti-tank choices, and how much is necessary in a TAC list?
I currently have 2 units of D-Scythes in triple-shuricannon serpents, so while it's close-range damage they can still damage most units and vehicles. I have a wraithfighter too, and am considering a squad of fusion-troupe in a starweaver. Not sure if thats enough, or too much, or actually should be aimed at different targets entirely haha.
Other peoples choices so far have been to add Bright Lances to wave serpents, but I don't think that's good for me as they're already expensive targets with the wraiths on board.
2)
I know an Avatar is not currently the most optimal choice (but then neither is a lot of the cool options in armies right now haha) as it is a slow footslogging unit, but IF you were to run one, what would be the best couple of units to run with it as support?
I run the Avatar in nearly all my games. I rush up with two Wave Serpents with mounted Wraithguard and that Avatar moves and advances up with them. I have lost the Avatar once in 7 games and I give him the +1 attack Warlord trait. What makes him a bit sneaky for opponents is the rerool for assault range and rolling two dice and picking highest on damage. He makes it into assault and has done very well for me.
My army is a bit low in model count so I tend to play aggressive. However, I am yet to play against Astra Militarum or other high model count armies, which may impact the effectiveness of the Avatar.
Interesting. I'm curious what else is in your army list.
I was thinking of running the Avatar with a guard of two Wraithlords with swords, if only because it would look cool on the table haha. Considered Shadow Spectres and Jetbikes too, as I figured the one thing that can bother an avatar is being tarpitted by assault troops..
Niiru wrote: I don't want to derail the anti-tank discussion, as I think it's an important one, but I want to ask something else at the same time, so I'll put them both in this post so people can follow on with either/both
1) What are your anti-tank choices, and how much is necessary in a TAC list?
I currently have 2 units of D-Scythes in triple-shuricannon serpents, so while it's close-range damage they can still damage most units and vehicles. I have a wraithfighter too, and am considering a squad of fusion-troupe in a starweaver. Not sure if thats enough, or too much, or actually should be aimed at different targets entirely haha.
Other peoples choices so far have been to add Bright Lances to wave serpents, but I don't think that's good for me as they're already expensive targets with the wraiths on board.
2) I know an Avatar is not currently the most optimal choice (but then neither is a lot of the cool options in armies right now haha) as it is a slow footslogging unit, but IF you were to run one, what would be the best couple of units to run with it as support?
I run the Avatar in nearly all my games. I rush up with two Wave Serpents with mounted Wraithguard and that Avatar moves and advances up with them. I have lost the Avatar once in 7 games and I give him the +1 attack Warlord trait. What makes him a bit sneaky for opponents is the rerool for assault range and rolling two dice and picking highest on damage. He makes it into assault and has done very well for me.
My army is a bit low in model count so I tend to play aggressive. However, I am yet to play against Astra Militarum or other high model count armies, which may impact the effectiveness of the Avatar.
Interesting. I'm curious what else is in your army list.
I was thinking of running the Avatar with a guard of two Wraithlords with swords, if only because it would look cool on the table haha. Considered Shadow Spectres and Jetbikes too, as I figured the one thing that can bother an avatar is being tarpitted by assault troops..
Today, roughly at 2000 points.
Outrider Detachment
Farseer
2 x 5 Wraithguard (D Scythes and Wraithcannons)
2 x 1 Wave Serpents
2 x 5 Warp Spiders
1 x 6 Shining Spears
1 x 1 Hemlock Wraithfighter
I have not played against large model count armies, but I have units that can help clear out light infantry. The important piece for my game plan is to be aggressive and not get too distracted with my opponent`s, well, distraction units. Wave Serpents act as the blockers for the Avatar and Wave Serpents absorb substantial firepower.
I don't think the list is optimal, and I would like to make some more tweaks for better synergy. The Spiritseer is a bit disappointing. My Autarch was weak and may look at a new one on bike to accompany the Shining Spears.
I really like casting Doom and Fortune from the Farseer and utilizing Autarchs for a budget rate Guide.
Anti tank has been the Wraithguard, Hemlock Wraithfighter, and Avatar. The Serpents shooting has been minimally effective, but very durable to get the Wraithguard into position.
Dionysodorus wrote: I don't really like lances on Serpents since I pretty much always want to be moving with them, so that's an immediate -25% efficiency. My opponent has to deal with the Serpents anyway since they're going to be right in his face charging everything.
Dionysodorus wrote: I don't really like lances on Serpents since I pretty much always want to be moving with them, so that's an immediate -25% efficiency. My opponent has to deal with the Serpents anyway since they're going to be right in his face charging everything.
5 points fixes that problem.
I mean, sure, if you want to shoot a bright lance at some cheap infantry.
Niiru wrote: What is the current top unit for anti-tank and anti-big things?
The three units I'm looking at are Reapers, War Walkers and Hornets, as they seem to be the ones that are the shooty gun platforms for eldar (also the actual gun platforms, but I'm not a fan of the models really, and they seem lackluster, but if you prefer them please say why )
War Walkers get a 5+ invulnerable, and so are pretty tough and can carry two heavy weapons. Being able to squadron means good use of guide etc too I guess.
Hornets are even tougher, and the -1 to hit is better than the 5+ invulnerable of walkers, but they only get it if they advance which mean no heavy weapons - shuriken cannons only. Which seems a waste. Nice models though.
Reapers. The most fragile, but highly accurate and so should be able to do a decent amount of damage. Not sure on the maths yet as to whether they do more or less damage than the other options for the points, but they do seem more fragile and more easily killed off.
So what do people get? I am finding that the only anti-tank in my list is D-Scythes, which are probably better off aimed at big infantry or even hordes than trying to get them in tank killing range..
Hemlocks are very good for killing tanks. Absent any enemy psykers, a Hemlock that can get close to a tank expects about 7 wounds on it, paying about 31 points per inflicted wound. This is better than a Dark Reaper, who pays about 41 points per inflicted wound (vs T7 3+). The Hemlock's major drawback is its range, but it's still very solid. Reapers tend to benefit more from various support units, however.
I do not like War Walkers or Hornets. Even War Walkers with bright lances are slightly less efficient than Hemlocks as long as they don't have Guide, and the Hemlocks are also great against lots of other targets while the War Walkers are far less durable.
I think the best ranged anti-tank Eldar unit other than Dark Reapers is the Crimson Hunter. They shoot about as well as War Walkers per point vs ground targets and are better than even Hemlocks against skimmers, and they're significantly more durable than War Walkers. However, they don't get much out of Guide since they have BS2+ and generally shoot at -1.
I think fire dragons in wave serpents are the answer to 95% of vehicle and monsters. They're even better as ynnari where shooting all your melta's at one target is rewarded with a soulburst.
I think the best answer is a mix of AT units though. I try to bring 1 short ranged anti-tank like fire dragons or wraithguard and 1 long ranged anti-tank like dark reapers or a crimson hunter. This makes sure that the dragons/wraithguard can take care of whatever threat the opponent pushes up the table, and if they hold their big stuff back the reapers/crimson hunter have the range to reach it.
When devising anti tank, do you account for psychic support or no? Guide has not been mandatory, but Fortune and Doom have been quite I important. Of note, I play Craftworld and have not yet played Ynarri.
Psychic support is a force multiplier rather than an actual anti tank option so not included when considering anti tank elements.
I also do not bother taking Guide but then I have 2 Wraithfighters, 1 unit of D-Scythe Wraithguard and 3 units of Shadow Spectres supported by Autarch, so Guide really isn't of much value to me.
Sarigar wrote: When devising anti tank, do you account for psychic support or no? Guide has not been mandatory, but Fortune and Doom have been quite I important. Of note, I play Craftworld and have not yet played Ynarri.
Psychic powers also become a bit tricky in Ynnari lists, as very few powers can interact usefully across the different factions. Playing pure craftworld means your farseer/warlocks can effect everyone, which makes them a bigger multiplier. I guess in a Ynnari force you would just get a psyker from the faction you have the most infantry/bikers from.
Guide is much less mandatory in this edition because autarchs provide the re-roll 1's aura. The most useful psychic power in the game right now is Doom. The wording of the power doesn't require any keywords to work so anything that shoots a target that has been doomed gets to re-roll to wound. Doom is really important for AT to me because even meltas are usually rolling on a 3+
Here's a draft of my planned Eldar list. Currently going Ynnari, though it's tempting to keep the harlequins as harlequins. Will depend on what the Craftworld codex gives us when it comes out!
I haven't split it up into detachments cos this is the first time I used battlescribe and I will play around with that later. I found it easier to quickly go back and forth with detachment option using Excel (well, Google Sheets, which is what I usually do my lists on!)
Should be a 2000 point list, but I am only on 1968 points and not sure what to add or drop at this point. I may end up collecting/building two seperate Eldar lists, if harlequins and wraiths don't synergise particularly well.
Spectres and Wraithfighter Fly up the board along with the transports. Shame that the Wraithfighter conceal doesn't help the wave serpents though, wondering if it's a waste in this list as there's no jetbikes for it to conceal...
Hemlock Wraithfighter is 211 points, the Spirit Stones aren't a piece of wargear on that model, but rather listed under abilities. You don't pay for them. The only wargear it has are the two heavy d-scythes.
Cream Tea wrote: Hemlock Wraithfighter is 211 points, the Spirit Stones aren't a piece of wargear on that model, but rather listed under abilities. You don't pay for them. The only wargear it has are the two heavy d-scythes.
Ahh ok, see I had it down as 211 originally, but battlescribe had it as 221 so I thought I was wrong lol. Turns out I was right. I'll look into correcting it.
I'm pretty sure you do pay for the Spirit Stones. I actually made the mistake of not paying for them until it was pointed out to me on these forums. spirit Stones may be listed in the abilities but it is an upgrade payable just like any other you choose or have to take.
With regards the list, you Warlock really isn't doing much here. I would strongly urge upgrading him to a Farseer who is way better and brings Doom which is pretty clutch. You just need to free up 37 points after dropping the Warlock, giving your under already. I'd suggest dropping the 2 Star Engines. They aren't essential and easy to free up here. After that all you have to do is drop one Fusion Pistol from each of the 2 Troupe squads. The benefit of Doom will easily offset the slight reduction in Fusion shots. I know you have Troupe Masters but Doom benefits your whole army and from 24".
Farseer then will also allow you a further proper Smite or use of either Guide or Fortune.
The imperium 1 FAQ clarifies that a Company champion must pay for its combat shield. The issue for the champion is the same: the shield is listed as an ability, while it also exists as a piece of wargear with an associated cost. It also says that in all similar instances, you have to pay the points.
That's why most people agree that Hemlocks have to pay for stones, and Autarchs for shields. But some people argue that a ruling in the Imperium 1 FAQ doesn't apply to the Xenos 1 FAQ.
Be silly to argue that the exact same situation does not apply just because the Index name is not referenced in the FAQ.
The main issue it's how they answered it. Some of the answer for side questions from players from the index looks a bit half arsed and seems they didn't even bothered to check the datasheet to find the mistakes and fix them (not sure if they did on the Codex:space marines)
Seems odd that they didn't added an errata of sorts for those units like *this unit is equipped with XXX * like Autarchs,Hemlocks and Company champions while they bothered to make an errata to Horrify just to add *characteristic* behind leadership.
P.S: most of my issues with it it's that seems most of players must go *fishing* tru all the freaking FAQ and erratas they publish because you never know when the answer to XXX question on a side codex can suddenly change the way everyone else it's been doing things.
fresus wrote: The imperium 1 FAQ clarifies that a Company champion must pay for its combat shield. The issue for the champion is the same: the shield is listed as an ability, while it also exists as a piece of wargear with an associated cost. It also says that in all similar instances, you have to pay the points.
That's why most people agree that Hemlocks have to pay for stones, and Autarchs for shields. But some people argue that a ruling in the Imperium 1 FAQ doesn't apply to the Xenos 1 FAQ.
What on Earth!? I have to read an index errata for some armies I don't play to figure out what my army costs? RAW it's very clear that you don't pay for them as they're not wargear, they just happen to share a name with a piece of wargear.
Then you could argue that Wraithblades should pay for Forceshields whether they take them of not, since they have an ability called Forceshield (that only does something if they take Forceshields). Wth, GW!?
Drake003 wrote: I'm pretty sure you do pay for the Spirit Stones. I actually made the mistake of not paying for them until it was pointed out to me on these forums. spirit Stones may be listed in the abilities but it is an upgrade payable just like any other you choose or have to take.
With regards the list, you Warlock really isn't doing much here. I would strongly urge upgrading him to a Farseer who is way better and brings Doom which is pretty clutch. You just need to free up 37 points after dropping the Warlock, giving your under already. I'd suggest dropping the 2 Star Engines. They aren't essential and easy to free up here. After that all you have to do is drop one Fusion Pistol from each of the 2 Troupe squads. The benefit of Doom will easily offset the slight reduction in Fusion shots. I know you have Troupe Masters but Doom benefits your whole army and from 24".
Farseer then will also allow you a further proper Smite or use of either Guide or Fortune.
I know that you mention the Imperial FAQ, but I am not aware of any previous instance where an FAQ or update for one army was also held as rules for a totally different army. Otherwise Orks would be reducing the costs of their overpriced powerfists, the same as imperial powerfists had their points costs dropped. They're two seperate armies, so their rules are completely seperate.
Unless GW actually put that additional rule into the Xenos FAQ, then it's irrelevent. Not saying that's not their intention, but RAW you don't pay for the Wraithfighter spirit stones because they aren't listed as wargear.
Saying that, I totally expect this to be a wasted arguement anyway as they'll probably correct the mistake in the codex next month. Probably. Though it's GW so you never know!
Back on topic though, I have made those changes that you suggested (I prefer farseers to warlocks anyway) but erring on the side of caution if I pay 10 points for the Hemlock then I am still over on points by 6. Probably close enough for any games I'd play tbh, but I could drop an embrace for a sword maybe.
Having checked the Imperium 1 errata as well as the Company Champion datasheet, I now believe they made a mistake when writing that. They probably thought the Combat Shield was listed under wargear, and the question pertained to whether you had to pay for non-optional wargear.
The biggest problem with the situation as it is is that it makes it very likely that a majority of players are paying the wrong amount of points for their models. This is insane, and has probably resulted in thousands of lists having too many points by GW's reckoning. Miscalculations are one thing, and will happen sometimes, but this is actively obscuring how much things cost. It's like they're trying to force you into "gotcha!" moments.
@Niiru, in all honesty dropping one down to Harlequin Blade isn't a bad thing. If they take a casualty pre-combat, you know which one took that bullet! Obviously just make sure third the same one that dropped the Fusion Pistol too.
@ Cream Tea. Totally agree this creates unnecessary confusion. Now personally confused whether I have overspent by 20pts..let's hope the Codex arrives asap. If the Facebook post about which Craftworld you like most is anything to go by, then it will be next, before the Nids..
Windriders are just cheap and good, with a Warlock and conceal you can fill out some cheap effective units.
Many LOVE skyweavers and yeah they are good, but they dont really go a lot of damage, they are great at moving fast, advanceing and charging, and thats it. Once they get there they dont do a lot of damage and are costly.
Shiny Spears 3 vs 2 skyweavers (same wound amount) is something like a 12pts? difference but you get S6 and S8 in shooting and melee, still have a 16" movement and 4++, but a 3+ just no -1 to hit, You also have catapalts so its less range over all but more shots. It is for sure more damage output. Where Skyweavers are a bit more survivable.
So Shiny Spears i would consider the best b.c they have high damage, Ynnari works great on them and a Warlock next to them buffs the survivability a lot. A 5man unit can do AI and AT, with Word of the Phoenix its insanely good.
Shiny Spears can get this in 1 turn;
Catapult A1, 4 (x5) 25; S4 rend
Lance Shoot, A1 (x4) 4; S6 -4 2D
Lance Melee, A2 (x4) 8; S6 -4 2D
Lance Shoot, A1 (x1) 1; S8 -4 2D
Lance Melee, A2 (x3) 3; S8 -4 2D
Voidweavers vs Vypers and them in general. Voidweavers are basically the idea of mass cheap 4++ -1 to hit 3 weapon platform spam. Vypers dont have the invul or -1 to hit and are just as costly with basically same weapons, so this is the worst out of everything other than Reavers.
Reavers are to costly and "jack of all trades" unit that doesnt do enough in shooting or melee. Only get 1 weapon per for speical gun and 1 weapon per for its "special style rule weapon". To make Reavers good, ALL the models needs to be able to take Grav-Talons or Custom Caltrops. Or all can take a special weapon. AND make the weapons cheaper. Heat Lances are 25pts! And Blasters are 15pts for D3 damage where a Fusion 2pts more is D6 damage with Melta rule.
Edit 2: Many wont agree with this, many will agree with some. Im just basing it on my experience, i have played many DE/Harlequin games with splash of Eldar, but i havent fully played all the units like Vypers for an Example, i wouldnt take them b.c i have 4 Voidweavers and think they are better.
Edit: Spelling and added Shiny Spears amounts
I don't have Shining Spears/Windriders, but I agree with the ranking of the other units, as well as the explanations.
I would put the Voidweaver in the "okay" category. Not great, but it has some use. It puts out enough shots to be somewhat of a threat, and doesn't die too quickly. Of course the CWE index has better shuricannon platforms, and the DE index better high strength ones. I mostly play it because I like harlequins.
The others are "meh" to "pretty bad (reavers)". I like to play Skyweavers because they can often manage T1 charges (when they're not Ynnari), and are a bit scary to opponents unfamiliar with harlequins, but their damage output really doesn't justify their cost. Only 3 S4 attacks isn't enough. Most of the time, they charge, kill almost nothing, and get shredded to pieces on the next turn.
I don't have Shining Spears/Windriders, but I agree with the ranking of the other units, as well as the explanations.
I would put the Voidweaver in the "okay" category. Not great, but it has some use. It puts out enough shots to be somewhat of a threat, and doesn't die too quickly. Of course the CWE index has better shuricannon platforms, and the DE index better high strength ones. I mostly play it because I like harlequins.
The others are "meh" to "pretty bad (reavers)". I like to play Skyweavers because they can often manage T1 charges (when they're not Ynnari), and are a bit scary to opponents unfamiliar with harlequins, but their damage output really doesn't justify their cost. Only 3 S4 attacks isn't enough. Most of the time, they charge, kill almost nothing, and get shredded to pieces on the next turn.
Yeah, i agree with all of this. I even tried 6 man Skyweavers and get T1 charges.... it just doesnt do anything. For 330 Points to not do much is sad.
admironheart wrote: well if the rumor thread is true..the nids get the next codex....so hope for thanksgiving or xmas for the elder.
Bummer
Why would Eldar be later than Nov? The Eldar Rumors AND nids rumors just came out today in the WD with pics, both starter box's for Eldar and Nids are out.
The new start collecting was leaked, and Nids confirmed for November. Almost a guarantee Eldar dex will be out before the end of the month. The 28th is also the release of the Ynnari black library book which i always figured was a sign and now seems to be confirmed.
The start collecting is wraithguard, a lord, warwalker, and farseer. Interesting mix, some are wondering if the guard will become heavy support to make the box playable, or troops. Either would shake things up.
I'll try and stay on top of news and update the first post once we have more solid information.
Colgado wrote: The new start collecting was leaked, and Nids confirmed for November. Almost a guarantee Eldar dex will be out before the end of the month. The 28th is also the release of the Ynnari black library book which i always figured was a sign and now seems to be confirmed.
The start collecting is wraithguard, a lord, warwalker, and farseer. Interesting mix, some are wondering if the guard will become heavy support to make the box playable, or troops. Either would shake things up.
I'll try and stay on top of news and update the first post once we have more solid information.
I would assume Iyanden would unlock wraithguard as troops. It would fit with the noise marines / berserkers from chaos. I doubt they would be universally troops. Though it is odd if the box set is designed that way, as it is painted in Samm-Hain colours.
Though none of those units are really Samm-Hain-esque, as there should be jetbikes and grav tanks in there. So they probably just chose the most popular eldar colours.
They just use Saim-Hann for all Craftworld packaging, like how they use Ultramarines for all SM packaging. I think it's a good idea actually, it makes it more obvious from the box that they're the same faction, and it looks more aesthetically pleasing.
Cream Tea wrote: They just use Saim-Hann for all Craftworld packaging, like how they use Ultramarines for all SM packaging. I think it's a good idea actually, it makes it more obvious from the box that they're the same faction, and it looks more aesthetically pleasing.
I dont disagree, make life easier for parents buying presents too I guess if they know to generally "buy the red ones".
New SC looks really good. If a new codex fixes issues I may revisit my Eldar. Really really hoping for plastic aspect warriors at long last, but not holding my breath.
In theory I like the idea of plastic aspect warriors. In practuceI am still running my original Jes Goodwin Reapers and Scorpions. I didn't bother updating the last 2 times they got new models so I am not sure I would start now.
Karhedron wrote: Hmmm, trigger that with a unit of Wraithblades nearby for some serious choppiness.
With a risk of losing up to 3 wounds in the process. Not terrible. Would also pump a wraithlord up to 6 attacks, and a wraithknight's titanic feet from 12 to 24 attacks.
I wonder why they made the keyword <IYANDEN WRAITH CONSTRUCT> though... wraith construct isn't a keyword in the game at all right now. Spirit Host is though, and that is only on Wraith units... so why not just Iyanden Spirit Host? Wonder if that heralds some other kind of change. Such as adding more units to being affected by this item, that aren't Wraiths.
Wraith, for Eldar, doesn't actually mean the dead guys (wraithguard, wraithlords, etc), but refers to the Wraithbone that they are made from. Wave Serpents and War Walkers are also "constructed" of wraithbone. Just a thought.
Its a little upsetting that Wraithblades only net like +2 attacks instead of a straight "Double Attacks" or "Attack Twice", but still that many chops coming in are bound to do some work
Goobi2 wrote: Its a little upsetting that Wraithblades only net like +2 attacks instead of a straight "Double Attacks" or "Attack Twice", but still that many chops coming in are bound to do some work
True, forgot their swords had chainsword rules. Still, going from 3 attacks per model to 5 attacks per model isn't bad.
Goobi2 wrote: Its a little upsetting that Wraithblades only net like +2 attacks instead of a straight "Double Attacks" or "Attack Twice", but still that many chops coming in are bound to do some work
True, forgot their swords had chainsword rules. Still, going from 3 attacks per model to 5 attacks per model isn't bad.
6 on a turn they charge may make a huge difference, specially if you bring 10 Wraiths squads..
but TBH i'm still hoping for some special rule or Area buff granting Wraithguards or wraithblades some extra save roll like disgusting resilient!
Niiru wrote: With a risk of losing up to 3 wounds in the process. Not terrible. Would also pump a wraithlord up to 6 attacks, and a wraithknight's titanic feet from 12 to 24 attacks.
Woo yeah! I forgot about titanic feet. I have a hilarious image of a Wraithknight playing football with Mortarion. That should be enough to take about half his wounds off in a round of combat.
Karhedron wrote: Hmmm, trigger that with a unit of Wraithblades nearby for some serious choppiness.
With a risk of losing up to 3 wounds in the process. Not terrible. Would also pump a wraithlord up to 6 attacks, and a wraithknight's titanic feet from 12 to 24 attacks.
I wonder why they made the keyword <IYANDEN WRAITH CONSTRUCT> though... wraith construct isn't a keyword in the game at all right now. Spirit Host is though, and that is only on Wraith units... so why not just Iyanden Spirit Host? Wonder if that heralds some other kind of change. Such as adding more units to being affected by this item, that aren't Wraiths.
Wraith, for Eldar, doesn't actually mean the dead guys (wraithguard, wraithlords, etc), but refers to the Wraithbone that they are made from. Wave Serpents and War Walkers are also "constructed" of wraithbone. Just a thought.
D3 mortal wounds on the unit sounds like a very small price to pay for an entire squad of choppy. Considering that each Wraithblade has 3 wounds; it's only a 33% chance of losing a single model for the entire squad (provided they're undamaged first).
I haven't run any math or gameplay; but if anything, it seems like the wounds might be a bit low for the potential return; I initially thought it was d3 per model in the squad, until I re-read it.
Either way, Eldar relics seem super strong (if a bit niche) - that said, I love the idea of a Wraithknight going super stompy mode with its feet.
I mean Wraithblades with Swords go from 3 to 6 attacks each, a 5 man unit is now 30 S6 with ap attacks.... thats insane.
They only double the attacks stat. So it doesn't include the +1 attack you get for having the sword. SO you go from 3 to 5 attacks each. Or from 4 to 6 attacks on a charge. So if you charge, you do get 30 attacks from a unit of 5, which is pretty good. And there is space in a wave serpent for whatever character you give the wargear item to. Handy.
The new SC Craftworlds set is very weird, mainly due to the points cost. Hopefully Codex Craftworlds has some points reductions or I can't see how anyone will buy more than 1 of them.
So let's say you take the SC Box...
1 Farseer with Singing Spear
1 unit of 5 Wraithguard with D-Scythe
1 War Walker, stock
1 Wraithlord with Missile Launcher and Bright Lance
and add..
1 Wave Serpent with Vectored Engines (surely mandatory, to get the Wraithguard and Farseer somewhere useful!)
That's 739pts.
Compare that to Astra Militarum... You can field THREE start collecting boxes for about 800 points. Three Leman Russ, a heavy weapons team and 30 infantry.
Not convinced that including the war walker AND wraithlord was a good choice... I dont think you can even fit 3 start collecting craftworlds into 2000 points, unless they footslog. And even if they do, that army is going to be awful.
I guess the good news is there will be a bunch of war walkers and wraithlords on eBay soonish.
Silentz wrote: The new SC Craftworlds set is very weird, mainly due to the points cost. Hopefully Codex Craftworlds has some points reductions or I can't see how anyone will buy more than 1 of them.
So let's say you take the SC Box...
1 Farseer with Singing Spear
1 unit of 5 Wraithguard with D-Scythe
1 War Walker, stock
1 Wraithlord with Missile Launcher and Bright Lance
and add..
1 Wave Serpent with Vectored Engines (surely mandatory, to get the Wraithguard and Farseer somewhere useful!)
That's 739pts.
Compare that to Astra Militarum... You can field THREE start collecting boxes for about 800 points. Three Leman Russ, a heavy weapons team and 30 infantry.
Not convinced that including the war walker AND wraithlord was a good choice... I dont think you can even fit 3 start collecting craftworlds into 2000 points, unless they footslog. And even if they do, that army is going to be awful.
I guess the good news is there will be a bunch of war walkers and wraithlords on eBay soonish.
It's also weird in that it's not a legal detachment.
(Unless wraithguard becomes troops, then it fits into a Patrol.)
Interesting trait. I don't see much that actually makes wraith units better besides the army wide toughness boost. The points reductions have me most excited since I'd hope for some other drops in costs for different units. Overall Iyanden looks like it will be the "tough" craftworld, which is great if not actually all that competitive. The fact the tactic works on tanks and constructs is nice though.
Colgado wrote: Interesting trait. I don't see much that actually makes wraith units better besides the army wide toughness boost.
The best I can make of it is that your wraith units will be in wave serpents, which will stay mobile longer. But that's being charitable. I just don't think they've really thought it through.
Well we can draw some conclusions from some of the points.
Spiritseers psychic nerf seems to be somewhat explained as making them a pseudo Warlock for Wraiths (with a wooping 20ish points reductions)
Seems spirit mark remains as gimped as the index version (affecting enemy units instead friendly, albeit small chance it was changed) but with the point reduction in spiritseers at least it can be easier to add a couple of them and get the same benefit as an Autarch plus some psychic goodness)
Also they say Spiritseers are 45 now 10 more than a warlock... so does that mean all warlocks got a price increase in the codex ?
Spiritseers psychic nerf seems to be somewhat explained as making them a pseudo Warlock for Wraiths (with a wooping 20ish points reductions)
Seems spirit mark remains as gimped as the index version (affecting enemy units instead friendly, albeit small chance it was changed) but with the point reduction in spiritseers at least it can be easier to add a couple of them and get the same benefit as an Autarch plus some psychic goodness)
Also they say Spiritseers are 45 now 10 more than a warlock... so does that mean all warlocks got a price increase in the codex ?
Warlocks are currently 37... so at least a 2pt decrease.
Warlocks are currently 37 points minimum because of the mandatory Witchblade. Presumably they're including that, and Warlocks either got a little cheaper or they're rounding. New Spiritseers seem far better than index Warlocks, with 4 wounds instead of 2 and real Smite, even if they're still a bit worse than Primaris Psykers. Hopefully someone noticed how bad of a deal Warlocks would be relative to the new Spiritseer and upped their wounds and gave them real Smite, although if that's the case the two units seem pretty redundant.
Darn true about the Witchblade, somehow was thinking on the Witch Staff of the Spiritseer (wichs cost nothing) and the Singing spear as the one costing more.
Wich says a lot about how many warlocks i have run this edition
Colgado wrote: Interesting trait. I don't see much that actually makes wraith units better besides the army wide toughness boost.
The best I can make of it is that your wraith units will be in wave serpents, which will stay mobile longer. But that's being charitable. I just don't think they've really thought it through.
Wave Serpents, Falcons, Spinners and Prisms, Hemlocks and Crimson Hunters, Wraithlords and Wraithknights all stay not only more mobile, but also more accurate and therefore more damaging, for much longer. Not sure why this is somehow a bad thing. Makes degrading statlines significantly less punishing.
Also the ability to ignore losses to morale isn't nothing, though it would depend on how your build your units.
Overall it would depend on other changes, such as wargear options.
Colgado wrote: Interesting trait. I don't see much that actually makes wraith units better besides the army wide toughness boost.
The best I can make of it is that your wraith units will be in wave serpents, which will stay mobile longer. But that's being charitable. I just don't think they've really thought it through.
Wave Serpents, Falcons, Spinners and Prisms, Hemlocks and Crimson Hunters, Wraithlords and Wraithknights all stay not only more mobile, but also more accurate and therefore more damaging, for much longer. Not sure why this is somehow a bad thing. Makes degrading statlines significantly less punishing.
Also the ability to ignore losses to morale isn't nothing, though it would depend on how your build your units.
Overall it would depend on other changes, such as wargear options.
Imho the moraly part it's mostly useless unless you plan to run 10 man squads often.
Eldar moral it's pretty high with 7-8 across the board, high numbers of guardians will benefit but also are quite easily to kill them down due 3T and low armor and Aspects often are run in smaller numbers to be effected in a meaningful manner.
Imho the moraly part it's mostly useless unless you plan to run 10 man squads often.
Eldar benefit from being run in large units if you are casting Fortune or Guide. Now you can mitigate against the risks of Battleshock if you wish.
Not super-powerful but pretty useful and they have done a good job of coming up with an army-rule that benefits most of the army (at least potentially). I play Iyanden so T8 Wraithlords look quite nice. It makes them better against bolters, MEQs, plasma, krak missiles, PFs/THs.... pretty nice boost. Some people have been comparing Wraithlords unfavourably with Dreads, combine T8 with reduced degradation and I think they are looking very favourable.
As it stands, I'm interested in the idea of it all, as someone who has never cared about Eldar at all. Having all of these very fast, very durable Vehicles is appealing.
Call me crazy but that's just not a Craftworld list at all.
No, it's clearly a Ynnari Harlequins list... Yncarne as warlord I assume means they were using SfD instead of rising crecendo. Not sure why it says not Ynnari when it's as ynnari as it can be.
xmbk wrote: My first thought is that Iyanden may end up not being the best choice for Wraith units. Nice for vehicles, but the Craftworld buffs are underwhelming.
Look out for whichever craftworld gets the inevitable deepstrike stratagem..
Another thing that I noticed is that the relic & stratagem don't affect scytheguard. Now, this might be a worthy attempt to buff sub-optimal choices, or it could be a sign to look elsewhere...
xmbk wrote: My first thought is that Iyanden may end up not being the best choice for Wraith units. Nice for vehicles, but the Craftworld buffs are underwhelming.
Look out for whichever craftworld gets the inevitable deepstrike stratagem..
Another thing that I noticed is that the relic & stratagem don't affect scytheguard. Now, this might be a worthy attempt to buff sub-optimal choices, or it could be a sign to look elsewhere...
Are scythe wraith guard considered best at this time?
Well, the relic affects scytheguard same as d-cannon wraithguard. And the stratagem is enhancing the Spiritseer's aura which already did nothing for scytheguard.
I'm pretty excited for Spiritseers in any kind of Eldar army. Whether or not Warlocks become worthwhile, a Primaris Psyker equivalent with 12 powers to choose from has got to be worth taking multiples of, and this makes it much easier to fill out detachments since index Eldar have a very hard time finding more than a couple of good HQs. You can always find a use for Conceal. And the new Empower is significantly better than Enhance for most units, since Eldar tend to hit on 3s and wound on 5s.
There are still 2 pairs of runes of battle powers that we don't know about. Maybe we'll even get +1/-1 to saves.
D3 S10 AP-4 auto-hits per model is pretty strong yeah, especially as a charge deterrent. There's little they're not good against and with 3" disembark, 5" move, D6" advance and 8" range they have a surprising threat range.
xmbk wrote: My first thought is that Iyanden may end up not being the best choice for Wraith units. Nice for vehicles, but the Craftworld buffs are underwhelming.
Look out for whichever craftworld gets the inevitable deepstrike stratagem..
Which will be Ulthwe and it will be called "Webway Assault", just like the 7th ed rules for Black Guardians. We will see in tomorrow's article, I guess
So we will end up with CW rules that make Wraiths best when not Iyanden and Windriders will be best when not Saim-Hann. Thanx GW
xmbk wrote: My first thought is that Iyanden may end up not being the best choice for Wraith units. Nice for vehicles, but the Craftworld buffs are underwhelming.
Look out for whichever craftworld gets the inevitable deepstrike stratagem..
Which will be Ulthwe and it will be called "Webway Assault", just like the 7th ed rules for Black Guardians
So we will end up with CW rules that make Wraiths best when not Iyanden and Windriders will be best when not Saim-Hann. Thanx GW
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So you've seen what all the craftworlds do? Please share!
xmbk wrote: My first thought is that Iyanden may end up not being the best choice for Wraith units. Nice for vehicles, but the Craftworld buffs are underwhelming.
Look out for whichever craftworld gets the inevitable deepstrike stratagem..
Which will be Ulthwe and it will be called "Webway Assault", just like the 7th ed rules for Black Guardians
So we will end up with CW rules that make Wraiths best when not Iyanden and Windriders will be best when not Saim-Hann. Thanx GW
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So you've seen what all the craftworlds do? Please share!
No, just a fairly well informed guess based on A) Black guardians are still on the Website. Since these are no different than their basic counterparts, it implies that <Black Gaurdians> will exist in the Codex. B) The last bit in the Iyanden faction focus specifically says tomorrow will cover Ulthwe AND Black Guardians C) "Drop in"/"Deep Strike" abilities are rampant across many armies right now....except Eldar....who have Webway portals in the fluff, particularly Ulthwe D) The 7th ed Black Gaurdians from the Gathering Storm II had the ability to Deep Strike anyway on the board 9" away from enemies. So BGs had an 8E rule before 8E. E) Space Marine White Scars are "the" biker Chapter, yet Bikes are better off using literally any other <Chapter Tactic>
I'm not at all convinced that there will be Black Guardians as their own unit, but I could certainly believe that GW will say they're representing Black Guardians by giving Ulthwe a stratagem that lets Guardians deep strike or whatever.
This would actually be very powerful. Guardians shoot very well for their cost. Being able to drop 20 of them in front of a horde would go a long way towards making them viable outside of a Serpent, and it'd be even nicer if they got a small price cut.
Dionysodorus wrote: I'm not at all convinced that there will be Black Guardians as their own unit, but I could certainly believe that GW will say they're representing Black Guardians by giving Ulthwe a stratagem that lets Guardians deep strike or whatever.
This would actually be very powerful. Guardians shoot very well for their cost. Being able to drop 20 of them in front of a horde would go a long way towards making them viable outside of a Serpent, and it'd be even nicer if they got a small price cut.
I agree that it will be a Stratagem. I also think it will only apply to units with the <Guardian> keyword, thus being able to be used on Windriders too (and possibly War Walkers and Vypers? I don't have my Index handy to check)
In any case, I think the most competitive Eldar lists will most likely have several Detachments, each form a different CW, to maximize effectiveness on units.
ph34r wrote: Are scythe wraith guard considered best at this time?
Pretty much. For an extra 5 points, they are only slightly weaker against large single targets and better against anything that comes in squads. They also have the scariest Overwatch in the game and can give a nasty shock to any fliers that make the mistake of getting too close (they won't do it again ).
The only thing that would make me consider Cannon Guard would be a Stratagem allowing me to DS a unit 9" away from the enemy since by definition that would be useless on Scytheguard. They would be useful for an alpha strike against a large target.
Just hoping that they keep their "Implacable" rule from the Index.
Redemption wrote: There's no unit in the index with the <GUARDIAN> keyword. Not even Guardians, as they either have <GUARDIAN DEFENDERS> or <STORM GUARDIANS>.
True. that's a memory fail on my part.
But still, the Stratagem could call out Windriders, Guardians (both kinds), War Walkers and Vypers. The important thing is that it isn't <Ulthwe Infantry> as not only would that make 3/4 of the Black Guardian sets on the website redundant (arguably they are already, but that is beside the point), but it would also be WAAAAAAAY too powerful.
Imagine Wraithguard (with cannons), Fire Dragons or other Aspect units using this Stratagem. I cannot imagine any other CW trait/stratagem being even close to this. Suddenly every Eldar list will be from Ulthwe.
I mean, Fire Dragons that deep strike would just be a slightly more expensive version of Scion Command Squads with melta guns. Guardians actually do strike me as the infantry unit (other than maybe FW Shadow Spectres) that benefits most from a deep strike stratagem. With the others you don't feel too bad about paying for a Wave Serpent to get them where you want them, but this feels wasteful for Guardians, and you could then take a bigger squad to get more for your CP.
Dionysodorus wrote: I mean, Fire Dragons that deep strike would just be a slightly more expensive version of Scion Command Squads with melta guns. Guardians actually do strike me as the infantry unit (other than maybe FW Shadow Spectres) that benefits most from a deep strike stratagem. With the others you don't feel too bad about paying for a Wave Serpent to get them where you want them, but this feels wasteful for Guardians, and you could then take a bigger squad to get more for your CP.
Particularly as their may be a recycling stratagem like chaos and IG have. Webway Reinforcements, or something. Guardian squad is removed and returns on a table edge. Have a big Guardian squad, with Iyanden morale durability, and the ability to recycle. Might be a pretty tough and annoying little unit. May even make guardians worth taking.
I wonder if they will do anything to make Dire Avengers worth taking.
xmbk wrote: My first thought is that Iyanden may end up not being the best choice for Wraith units. Nice for vehicles, but the Craftworld buffs are underwhelming.
Look out for whichever craftworld gets the inevitable deepstrike stratagem..
Which will be Ulthwe and it will be called "Webway Assault", just like the 7th ed rules for Black Guardians
So we will end up with CW rules that make Wraiths best when not Iyanden and Windriders will be best when not Saim-Hann. Thanx GW
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So you've seen what all the craftworlds do? Please share!
No, just a fairly well informed guess based on
A) Black guardians are still on the Website. Since these are no different than their basic counterparts, it implies that <Black Gaurdians> will exist in the Codex.
B) The last bit in the Iyanden faction focus specifically says tomorrow will cover Ulthwe AND Black Guardians
C) "Drop in"/"Deep Strike" abilities are rampant across many armies right now....except Eldar....who have Webway portals in the fluff, particularly Ulthwe
D) The 7th ed Black Gaurdians from the Gathering Storm II had the ability to Deep Strike anyway on the board 9" away from enemies. So BGs had an 8E rule before 8E.
E) Space Marine White Scars are "the" biker Chapter, yet Bikes are better off using literally any other <Chapter Tactic>
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Pretty much spot on, also we'll probably see army wide spotlights based on craftworld rules on the same way they told those for the guard.
We know Wraiths got extra T with Iyanden maybe tomorrow we'll know another army wide buff based on guardians, bikes and grav tanks ones with Saim -Hann , Aspects one with Biel Tan spotlights as example.
xmbk wrote: My first thought is that Iyanden may end up not being the best choice for Wraith units. Nice for vehicles, but the Craftworld buffs are underwhelming.
Look out for whichever craftworld gets the inevitable deepstrike stratagem..
Which will be Ulthwe and it will be called "Webway Assault", just like the 7th ed rules for Black Guardians
So we will end up with CW rules that make Wraiths best when not Iyanden and Windriders will be best when not Saim-Hann. Thanx GW
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So you've seen what all the craftworlds do? Please share!
No, just a fairly well informed guess based on
A) Black guardians are still on the Website. Since these are no different than their basic counterparts, it implies that <Black Gaurdians> will exist in the Codex.
B) The last bit in the Iyanden faction focus specifically says tomorrow will cover Ulthwe AND Black Guardians
C) "Drop in"/"Deep Strike" abilities are rampant across many armies right now....except Eldar....who have Webway portals in the fluff, particularly Ulthwe
D) The 7th ed Black Gaurdians from the Gathering Storm II had the ability to Deep Strike anyway on the board 9" away from enemies. So BGs had an 8E rule before 8E.
E) Space Marine White Scars are "the" biker Chapter, yet Bikes are better off using literally any other <Chapter Tactic>
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Pretty much spot on, also we'll probably see army wide spotlights based on craftworld rules on the same way they told those for the guard.
We know Wraiths got extra T with Iyanden maybe tomorrow we'll know another army wide buff based on guardians, bikes and grav tanks ones with Saim -Hann , Aspects one with Biel Tan spotlights as example.
I read it as Wraiths got an extra T in general not just with Iyanden. Which would be much better in my opinion.
I read it as Wraiths got an extra T in general not just with Iyanden. Which would be much better in my opinion.
It was pretty clear that they got extra toughness in general.
If they made the difference between Iyanden and non-Iyanden wraiths too big, either one would be overpowered or the other would be underpowered. I'd prefer wraiths were viable with any craftworld, but better with Iyanden without being broken.
Redemption wrote: There's no unit in the index with the <GUARDIAN> keyword. Not even Guardians, as they either have <GUARDIAN DEFENDERS> or <STORM GUARDIANS>.
True. that's a memory fail on my part.
At the risk of being one on mine, however, don't the relevant units all share WARHOST? Although I'm not sure if that doesn't also include the tanks...
Redemption wrote: There's no unit in the index with the <GUARDIAN> keyword. Not even Guardians, as they either have <GUARDIAN DEFENDERS> or <STORM GUARDIANS>.
True. that's a memory fail on my part.
At the risk of being one on mine, however, don't the relevant units all share WARHOST? Although I'm not sure if that doesn't also include the tanks...
Warhost it's common to all units like guardians and tanks, while Spirit host it's for wraith units.
The biggest issue it's that the sneak peek on Iyanden relic shows a whole new Keyword (Wraith construct) wich is brand new, so we can't be fully sure how much of current others remain unchanged.
They didn't mention it in the article, but on the facebook page someone asked about the webway assault. The response from the warhammer team was "We're on Twitch talking about the Codex on Friday, with some exclusive new content about the Codex (quite possibly including Webway portal)."
Interesting. Could be an Alaitoc stratagem, I find it unlikely (but not impossible) it would be an army wide strat.
Also, I noticed they mentioned the Autarch's path of command ability has been reworked. Maybe re-roll 1 to wound?
The more I think about it, 20 man guardian squads look pretty dangerous. The 4+ invulnerable is strong, with Iyanden for morale, or Ulthwe for 6+ fnp and the +1 hit guardians suddenly got a lot more durable/potent. Conceal from warlocks and other psychic buffs help too.
Colgado wrote: Also, I noticed they mentioned the Autarch's path of command ability has been reworked. Maybe re-roll 1 to wound?
I think it was left out initially, because I missed it too, but there is a picture of the ability now. It's re roll 1s to hit still, but also you can get CP back on a roll of 6.
Anyone else notic they talked about hemlocks giving -2 ld? That would be pretty great.
Glad guardians got a boost. Hitting on 2s out of wave serpents and 4+ inv in a pinch are both useful.
Free spirit stones for everyone is pretty rad as well. Saves a chunk of points on mech eldar and will make some units super annoying to shift. Tho kind of makes fortune redundant.
Plus a point reduction on eldrad is nice.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Not seeing anything that would make me want to take Craftworld over Ynnair yet, assuming that Ynnari loose the Craftworld traits.
Agreed. Unless they are playing pretty close to the chest with some very cool stratagems, the Craftworld attributes are pretty yawnworthy. And they specifically mention the Ulthwe one being the "most versatile"...which makes me think the other three will be hyper specific to one kind of unit, much like Iyanden with wraiths. Honestly I'm just super disappointed Altansar didn't make the cut, especially considering their role in the whole Gathering Storm/Ynnead plot. I mean Guard got rules for a bunch of regiments...some that there aren't even model support for...sigh.
Overall if Craftworlds don't get some sort of webway/deepstrike ability I can't see them being used over Ynnari in a competitive setting, and for me not so much in a fluffy or fun one either. I'll just run my Altansar guys and gals as Ynnari and call it a day. But we'll see what the next previews bring...
Disappointing the ignore wound role cannot be used in addition to Spirit Stones etc. Means a Wraithfighter currently has to pay 10 points for Spirit Stones it gains no benefit from.
It's possible, although I won't hold my breath, that Webway portals become a Stratagem for all Aeldari, albeit in the form of separate stratagems for each faction. For example, CWE could get Webway Assault, DE could get Webway Portals or some such. If these are faction wide, I would be incredibly happy. I thought for sure the Ulthwe would get it as a stratagem, but unless they are getting several and not revealing them all, it does not look like it.
Several armies have received deployment shenanigans and I would be severely disappointed if Eldar, the army that has always had unique ways to deploy, do not. Especially since this edition in particular seems to highly favor this tactic.
Drake003 wrote: Disappointing the ignore wound role cannot be used in addition to Spirit Stones etc. Means a Wraithfighter currently has to pay 10 points for Spirit Stones it gains no benefit from.
The easy fix here is to take all your Hemlocks in a Flyer detachment that is Iyanden, or Alaitoc, and the rest of you army as Ulthwe.
Galef, that would mean having to take 3 flyers though. Unless they get a points reduction I won't be getting a 3rd due to that being a nigh on 3rd of my points on flyers, which due to boots on the ground rule, is not where I want to be.
So far 2 Hemlocks has worked well for me.
Appreciate the thought though, have to see how things pan out.. so far, other than Eldrad himself, I am not sold on Ulthwe..
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