In your mind.

Having used Shining Spears (full disclosure: pre-Codex) I have to say that they're a glass cannon, and live about halfway between being OP and being worthless depending heavily on what deployment type is rolled, who goes first, and what the matchup is.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not planning for dark reaper. The hammer is coming.

There is no evidence of that.

Guard have been broken since release, to the point where some armies are flat out unplayable in the meta *because* of IG.

-Conscripts
-Storm Ravens
-Assbacks
-Changeling
-Magnus (maybe not enough)
-Malefic Lords
-Super Chicken
-Bobby G (maybe not enough)
-Smite Spam

There is plenty of evidence to suggest that GW is targeting units/abilities that are not good for balance.

Looks like he is under the radar for now.

Agreed. SS are a quintessential glass cannons (especially the ynarri version)

What sets the apart from marine glass cannon variants is they are capable of earning back their points in the turn they are on the table before they are obliterated (oh, and that exarch is insane) vs marines who struggle to earn back half before they are returned to the emperor's embrace.

So can a squad of five plasma interceptors.

Median Trace wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not planning for dark reaper. The hammer is coming.

There is no evidence of that.

Guard have been broken since release, to the point where some armies are flat out unplayable in the meta *because* of IG.

-Conscripts
-Storm Ravens
-Assbacks
-Changeling
-Magnus (maybe not enough)
-Malefic Lords
-Super Chicken
-Bobby G (maybe not enough)
-Smite Spam

There is plenty of evidence to suggest that GW is targeting units/abilities that are not good for balance.

And yet only one of those is guard despite them being utterly dominant from start to finish in 2017

 Marmatag wrote:

Median Trace wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not planning for dark reaper. The hammer is coming.

There is no evidence of that.

Guard have been broken since release, to the point where some armies are flat out unplayable in the meta *because* of IG.

-Conscripts
-Storm Ravens
-Assbacks
-Changeling
-Magnus (maybe not enough)
-Malefic Lords
-Super Chicken
-Bobby G (maybe not enough)
-Smite Spam

There is plenty of evidence to suggest that GW is targeting units/abilities that are not good for balance.

And yet only one of those is guard despite them being utterly dominant from start to finish in 2017

The commissar was also nerfed. Overnerfing in my opinion. And the Manticores had a price-increasem

Fair. The commissar conscript nerf was significant.

Prior to that you'd see AM as the top 4/5 lists in every big event.

Still, i'm not convinced a reaper nerf is coming, and guard are still out of control. From the bottom up IG has a design flaw of being incredibly survivable with insane board control and top notch firepower.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Sigh, there are plenty of things that have good shooting in marines, are mobile, and don't suffer -1 to hit. Way more than most guard armies honestly.

Inceptors
Helblasters
Bikes
Scout bikes
Aggressors are decently mobile

You just pay out the ass for them. Except the scout bikes.

I don't consider any of them terribly expensive for their damage output. But scout bikes are definitely the most efficient. They might be the best chaff clearing unit in the game.

Shining spears put them to literal shame though.

For clearing chaff they are worse in almost every possible way. They are 6 points more have fewer shots, the same number close combat attacks, are slower(if you run white scars). A unit of 9 scout bikers with a storm bolter sarge puts out 58 S4 shots (or 40 S 4 and 18 S 5), and 19 S 4 CC attacks. As white scars they can advance (22") shoot and charge (stratagem). Easy to
Get re-rolls for them. The same points in shining spears (7) puts out 28 S 4 shots and 7 s6 shots at 6" range, cannot advance and charge at 12" they lose shooting, at more than 12" they have no shooting. On the charge they are better in the assault against chaff, but not by a ton. But how does 35 shots at 6" compare to 58 at 12".

Yeah Shining Spears are way overrated.

It is worth noting that outside of 12" those guys drop from 60 dice down to 20. T5 4+ isn't terrible though. I could see this having a real place in some lists that didn't want to bring Grey Knights.

True, but getting them within 12" of a chaff screen is trivial. And comparing them to shining spears outside 12" 20 shots is better than 0. They are better point for point than GK at clearing chaff. Especially because they can charge more easily, and don't risk deepstrike retaliation. T5 4+
And 2 wounds is also more durable than T4 3+
And 1 wound. It all depends on list though, my list has a lot of 2 wound models with T 5 so if you are gunning for the scout bikes, then you aren't shooting other models that may be more dangerous.

 Primark G wrote:
Yeah Shining Spears are way overrated.

They are more point efficient and survivable vs any target than plasma inceptors even giving the inceptors free re-roll of 1's to hit..

3x 3x shining spears exarch with star spear @ 285 points vs 5x plasma ceptors @ 295 (free re-roll of 1s)
-18 wounds t4, 4++ vs 10 t5 no invuln save (win spears)
-vs t3 5+ 1w - spears win 27 to 10
-vs t4 3+ 1w - spears win 19 to 7
-vs t5 3+ 1w - spears win 16 to 7
-vs t6 3+ (overcharge) - spears win 1w 12 2w 21 to 1w 7 2w 13
-vs t7 3+ (overcharge) - monster or vehicles spears win 26 to 13
-vs t8 3+ (overcharge) - monster or vehicles spears win 22 to 10

So if spears are overrated what are plasma ceptors? Given the spears are point for point twice as effective against all targets but t6, 3+ non-monster/vehicle (where they are only 70% more effective)..

Well except range matters. Seems like you are also always including a charge for those spears, so overwatch matters. I'm not saying they are bad, but they are very different units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also inceptors can more easily get cover.

Do you really need three squads though? Seems like overkill.

 Primark G wrote:
Do you really need three squads though? Seems like overkill.

Something something something filling out FOC something something something complete

They aren’t that good to take three squads and eldar has some good choices for that slot.

 Primark G wrote:
They aren’t that good to take three squads and eldar has some good choices for that slot.

Like Shining Spears are a good choice in that slot!

They don't really have a bad Fast Attack slot though.

Why are you discussing eldar in a SM thread? Who cares?

Read my sig and you probably have your answer lol

Exactly.

Martel732 wrote:
"Andrew Whittaker 1st Ovarall Warzone: Atlanta 2017
BRIGADE: Vostroyan – 1074 Points – 60 PL – 9 CP’s
HQ: 90 Points – 6 PL’s
Company Commander – Kurov’s Aquilla – 30 – 2 PL
Company Commander – 30 – 2 PL (Warlord – Grand Strategist)
Company Commander – 30 – 2 PL
ELITE: 285 Points – 15 PL
Veteran Squad (60) – Laz Cannon (20), Grenade Launcher x3 (15) – 95 Points – 5 PL
Veteran Squad (60) – Laz Cannon (20), Grenade Launcher x3 (15) – 95 Points – 5 PL
Veteran Squad (60) – Laz Cannon (20), Grenade Launcher x3 (15) – 95 Points – 5 PL
TROOP: 402 Points – 18 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
FAST ATTACK: 165 Points – 9 PL
Scout Sentinel (35) – Laz Cannon (20) – 55 Points – 3 PL
Scout Sentinel (35) – Laz Cannon (20) – 55 Points – 3 PL
Scout Sentinel (35) – Laz Cannon (20) – 55 Points – 3 PL
HEAVY SUPPORT: 132 Points – 12 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL
OUTRIDER: Krieg – 353 Points – 24 PL – 1 CP
HQ: 80 – 3
Death Rider Commander (40) – Plasma Pistol (5) – 45 Points – 3 PL
ELITE: 204 – 6
Death Rider Command Squadron (68) – 68 Points – 6 PL
FAST ATTACK: 240 – 15
Death Rider Squadron (80) – 80 Points – 5 PL
Death Rider Squadron (80) – 80 Points – 5 PL
Death Rider Squadron (80) – 80 Points – 5 PL
SPEARHEAD: Cadian – 572 Points – 26 PL – 1 CP
HQ: 40 – 2
Primaris Psycher (40) – Relic of Lost Cadia – 40 Points – 2 PL
HEAVY SUPPORT: 532 – 24
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL"

Here's one that's not souped, but is pre-CA. I think. What absurdly low price is the Manticore in CA? Whatever. Here it is. I wouldn't even know where to start to fight this with marines.

The more I looked at that list the more I liked it. Thanks again for posting it.

I came up with something unexpected when just looking at numbers, so here's my "math based" list.

Plasma Annihilator, SPACE MARINES, Any vanilla codex chapter
SPEARHEAD
Captain, Storm Bolter 76 -- (Make Chapter Master w/ Stratagem)
Company Ancient 63 (Take Relic Banner)
Devatsators (7) w/Plasma Cannons (4), Cherub 180
Devatsators (7) w/Plasma Cannons (4), Cherub 180
Devatsators (7) w/Plasma Cannons (4), Cherub 180
Devatsators (7) w/Plasma Cannons (4), Cherub 180
Devatsators (7) w/Plasma Cannons (4), Cherub 180

SPEARHEAD
Lieutenant, Storm Bolter 62
Devatsators (7) w/Plasma Cannons (4), Cherub 180
Devatsators (7) w/Plasma Cannons (4), Cherub 180
Devatsators (7) w/Plasma Cannons (4), Cherub 180
Devatsators (7) w/Plasma Cannons (4), Cherub 180
Devatsators (7) w/Plasma Cannons (4), Cherub 180

1999

Deploy opposite the castle in the middle of the board, banner in the center and all Plasma Cannon models in it's radius. You win on drops so you have a slight "go-first" advantage. If you don't have to move, firing every Plasma Cannon at just plain guardsmen (even in cover) each squad averages (3 x 2 x .888 x .96) + (2 x 2 x .96 x .96) = 8.8 Ten Squads giving you a whopping 88 Guardsman casualties. Moving reduces effectiveness somewhat, only killing 72 Guardsmen. Darn. You don't have to overcharge for normal Guardsmen either. But if you decide to overcharge, any casualties you take you get a 66% chance to fire again because of the banner. In his turn, casualties you take also mean you get a 66% chance to fire again. Didn't bother with doing the bolter math because I think the Plasma Cannons alone make a point.

A quick alteration would be to make the Dev squads 5 man, and take a bunch of Scouts to deploy up front to rapid fire bolters up there and try to catch those Manticores in CC past the piles of bodies.

. . .

A list more my usual style would involve 3 similar Dev Squads in Drop Pods with the Characters. My math on that gets them an average of 30 wounds against Manticores on the drop, which is solid Imo. The rest of the army would be Tacs and Scouts, possibly the Tacs in Rhinos because I get utility out of ramming them forward into assault and blocking LOS. But a Squad or two of Scouts can net you some more Bolter kills alongside the Devastators who would also be firing Bolters at regular Guardsmen. A good first strike would land you about 400 points ahead going into his first turn, roundabouts 3 Manticores and a Guardsmen Squad or two, depending on how deployment and dice shake out. The important takeaway for me is the big PC Devaststor Squads and the Banner for an opening move. The 36" Range helps them get to the Manticores, the Pods get you LOS and avoid getting shot, the Banner makes them a pain to remove, and if you can drop them in cover you're in a fine spot.

Quick comparison: A lot of people like Hellblasters at their 35 points, but the Dev Plasma Cannon model comes in at 34 and does nearly twice the damage, the only difference being the Hellblasters have a -4 save. The Devs can also get the ablative wounds, Cherub, have 6" more range and a Signum for +1 to hit for one model. They can also go in Pods.

I admire your work there Insectum, but that plasma list is hideous.

One thing I like about it is Guilliman is actually detrimental to the list, the Plasma Cannon wound rolls are good enough that you're better off without him. As opposed to the Assault Cannon spam type that requires his rerolls to handle vehicles since they only wound on 5s.


It does 118 wounds to T7 3+ sv vehicles in it's first round of fire.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Having used Shining Spears (full disclosure: pre-Codex) I have to say that they're a glass cannon, and live about halfway between being OP and being worthless depending heavily on what deployment type is rolled, who goes first, and what the matchup is.

Considering you can deepstrike them for 1 CP. Plus a single spell called protect gives them a 2+/3++ whilst having 2 wounds and being 31 points? They are about as far away from a glass cannon unit than any unit in the game. They are basically getting a free 4++ save even without a buff from a psyker...how exactly does this make them glass at all?

That list would get rocked so hard it's not even funny.

Step 1: Bring on plasma devastators
Step 2: Spend 2 turns moving them into position.
Step 3: You died during step 2, but let's assume you didn't.
Step 4: Start shooting what you can with plasma!
Step 5: Control no objectives.
Step 6: Lose the firefight because plasma devs in cover still get out-shot by guard, and require LOS.

40 plasma devastators.
(4/6)+(1/6)*(4/6) = hiting on 3s, rerolling 1s. Assuming they never pay the penalty of moving.
(5/6)+(1/6)*(5/6) = wounding on 2s, rerolling 1s.
2 shots per devastator.

Each devastator kills 1.5 guardsmen, for a total estimate of 60 guardsmen dying to plasma turn 1. Assuming you don't move. And assuming you're in range to shoot them.

Then the artillery fires back. And you are effectively tabled. You will lose about 10 devastator marines a turn to the manticores alone if they're not in cover.

 Primark G wrote:
Yeah Shining Spears are way overrated.

Do you secretly play eldar or something? You think hellblasters are great and shining spears are over rated?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Yeah Shining Spears are way overrated.

Do you secretly play eldar or something? You think hellblasters are great and shining spears are over rated?

He's just saying that to sound off. They're not OP like Dark Reapers but saying they're overrated is silly, they are one of the better units in a top-tier codex.

What is this thread:

First what it is not - a discussion on competitive units to use in a SM army.

What it is:

a) complain that SM are not competitive
b) discuss competitive units for other armies
c) berate posters that are positive about SM
d) dis good advice how to play SM competitively

 Primark G wrote:
What is this thread:

First what it is not - a discussion on competitive units to use in a SM army.

What it is:

a) complain that SM are not competitive
b) discuss competitive units for other armies
c) berate posters that are positive about SM
d) dis good advice how to play SM competitively

Because people largely don't agree with your suggestions. Hellblasters are okay, but not what i'd call competitive, for example. They are too easily targeted and removed.

I've whipped many space marine lists using your "good advice".

You seem to think that this:

"Hellblasters are a competitive unit."

Is an argument. It's not. You need to do better, either showing it has proven to do well in tournaments or provide mathhammer and uses cases as it applies to meta lists.

I can literally say this about anything.

"Assault squads are competitive. 10 attacks with chainswords wow. I win all my games."

I mean seriously

DA Hellblasters inflicting 3 dmg 15" rapid fire range S8 AP4. How is that not anything but competitive?

 Primark G wrote:
DA Hellblasters inflicting 3 dmg 15" rapid fire range S8 AP4. How is that not anything but competitive?

I thought you said before that we were talking about Vanilla marines?

 Primark G wrote:
DA Hellblasters inflicting 3 dmg 15" rapid fire range S8 AP4. How is that not anything but competitive?

You have supplied their overcharged profile for Dark Angels.

This is not an argument.

"How is a squad that deep strikes, moves 12", and swings 10x in melee with chainswords, AND HAS PISTOLS to shoot on top of that, not competitive? All you do is bash marines, and dis competitive assault marine strategy."

I have watched them take out super heavies in one volley.

You are a troll.

 Primark G wrote:
I have watched them take out super heavies in one volley.

You are a troll.

"My anecdote of their success is valid, but your anecdotes of their failure don't count."

As others are pointing out, you are not making an argument here. Not to mention that using their DA profile, as Marmatag points out, is moving the goalposts.

I'm not a SM player really, but What about Thunderfire Cannons, they are an average of (if my math is right) 24 HB no LoS shots for 120pts?

Or Whirlwinds?

I dont see any SM player using them i as a Xenos player (I do have SoB, but 90% my games are Nids/DE/Quins) I love the units.

When i see SM i think jack of all. so you want so long range, so mid range and some close range, with a bike more shooting, but still some cc. Those 2 uits always comes to my mind and i would take them.

Why are they not Competitive? Or is that that no one is trying them in comp games?

I have a friend who uses two WW and he swears by them.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I'm not a SM player really, but What about Thunderfire Cannons, they are an average of (if my math is right) 24 HB no LoS shots for 120pts?

Or Whirlwinds?

I dont see any SM player using them i as a Xenos player (I do have SoB, but 90% my games are Nids/DE/Quins) I love the units.

When i see SM i think jack of all. so you want so long range, so mid range and some close range, with a bike more shooting, but still some cc. Those 2 uits always comes to my mind and i would take them.

Why are they not Competitive? Or is that that no one is trying them in comp games?

Half the problem is if a model doesn't pack S7 AP3 or better and D2 or better it "isn't worth taking", because the only thing people fight are tanks apparently.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I'm not a SM player really, but What about Thunderfire Cannons, they are an average of (if my math is right) 24 HB no LoS shots for 120pts?

Or Whirlwinds?

I dont see any SM player using them i as a Xenos player (I do have SoB, but 90% my games are Nids/DE/Quins) I love the units.

When i see SM i think jack of all. so you want so long range, so mid range and some close range, with a bike more shooting, but still some cc. Those 2 uits always comes to my mind and i would take them.

Why are they not Competitive? Or is that that no one is trying them in comp games?

Well iv seen the TFC put in some work. though iv never had great luck with them.

the half move strat could come in real handy on occasion im sure.

Though the reason you may never actually see one in game might be because of how much of a pain it is to get and build.

its a pretty garbage build that got worse in fine cast.

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
What is this thread:

First what it is not - a discussion on competitive units to use in a SM army.

What it is:

a) complain that SM are not competitive
b) discuss competitive units for other armies
c) berate posters that are positive about SM
d) dis good advice how to play SM competitively

Because people largely don't agree with your suggestions. Hellblasters are okay, but not what i'd call competitive, for example. They are too easily targeted and removed.

I've whipped many space marine lists using your "good advice".

I have not posted any of my lists here.

 Primark G wrote:
I have watched them take out super heavies in one volley.

You are a troll.

Says the guy who cannot make an argument to save his freaking life. You just run around posting "this is good" and expect everyone to get on board, while supplying no arguments that combine actual mathhammer, or tournament data (there is a copious amount of tournament data out there).

Your argument:

"Hellblasters are good."

Your first justification:

"Their statline."

Your third justification:

"I saw them kill a super heavy."

So your justification for what is a competitive unit is whether or not it can kill a Super Heavy.

I humbly submit that the criteria by which a units competitive value is determined is not solely restricted to the ability to kill a super heavy; further, the ability to kill a super heavy does not automatically make a unit competitive.

Outside of rapid fire you would need over 20 hellblasters to have a realistic shot at 1 shotting an Imperial Knight, for example.

 Marmatag wrote:
That list would get rocked so hard it's not even funny.

Step 1: Bring on plasma devastators
Step 2: Spend 2 turns moving them into position.
Step 3: You died during step 2, but let's assume you didn't.
Step 4: Start shooting what you can with plasma!
Step 5: Control no objectives.
Step 6: Lose the firefight because plasma devs in cover still get out-shot by guard, and require LOS.

40 plasma devastators.
(4/6)+(1/6)*(4/6) = hiting on 3s, rerolling 1s. Assuming they never pay the penalty of moving.
(5/6)+(1/6)*(5/6) = wounding on 2s, rerolling 1s.
2 shots per devastator.

Each devastator kills 1.5 guardsmen, for a total estimate of 60 guardsmen dying to plasma turn 1. Assuming you don't move. And assuming you're in range to shoot them.

Then the artillery fires back. And you are effectively tabled. You will lose about 10 devastator marines a turn to the manticores alone if they're not in cover.

If your geometry was correct and your math was correct I'd be more inclined to believe you. But you left out the Signum and Cherubs, and a 36" range + 6+ move is a hard thing to hide from on a 6x4 unless the IG army of 130ish models including tanks can tuck itself away so well.



The list is a theoretical demonstration of firepower potential to be used as a stepping stone to something more sophisticated. But I'll stand by Plasma Cannon Devs as a fine place to look for SM here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:

Says the guy who cannot make an argument to save his freaking life. You just run around posting "this is good" and expect everyone to get on board, while supplying no arguments that combine actual mathhammer, or tournament data (there is a copious amount of tournament data out there).

Some of that tournament data would seem to suggest SM are in a decent spot, so I don't know what's bothering you so much.

Much of the IG list does not require line of sight and has a range you cannot escape, or vastly larger than your plasma devastators. You can choose to ignore this fact if you want. But that list would get rolled ugly. I have crushed better lists that actually work, but still feature 20+ devastators. Of course that is anecdotal. How about you point me to a GT winning list featuring devastator spam, that has won an ITC event in the past 3 months?

SM are in a decent spot because of two things really: Fire Raptors (totally undercosted) and Guilliman. If you look on BoK they're doing okay because of Ultras, but those numbers aren't really growing the same way since other codexes have come out.

Yeah Marmatag chill out its obvious you has a chip on your shoulder. If you can't see why killing a SH in one shooting phase is very competitive I really don't know what to tell you.

 Marmatag wrote:
Much of the IG list does not require line of sight and has a range you cannot escape, or vastly larger than your plasma devastators. You can choose to ignore this fact if you want. But that list would get rolled ugly. I have crushed better lists that actually work, but still feature 20+ devastators.

SM are in a decent spot because of two things really: Fire Raptors (totally undercosted) and Guilliman.

Something about "your anecdote doesn't constitute proof".

Why don't you post one of these better Space Marines lists?

 Primark G wrote:
Yeah Marmatag chill out its obvious you has a chip on your shoulder. If you can't see why killing a SH in one shooting phase is very competitive I really don't know what to tell you.

Actually I don't much care what happens with SM. I play Tyranids. A couple friends play SM and are salty about how bad this edition is for them. And I agree. If Hellblasters could ride in drop pods they'd be much better than they are now. Right now you need to either (a) devote nearly half your list to bring hellblasters + their transport, or (b) hope your opponent just strolls into rapid fire range. They're not feasible.

I get annoyed because you guys aren't making arguments at all based on data, or realistic scenarios. Like a guy thinking his 40 devastator plasma list would work because he could shoot the IG backline with 36" guns from cover. That's a ridiculous scenario and everyone knows it. Do you really think your IG opponent is going to see 40 devastators and put his tanks within line of sight or within 36" of your devastators? Hint: if you're spending turns shooting guardsmen he's winning big.

Martel has openly shared his lists, for instance. But you guys aren't sharing yours, as you have pointed out. You just pop in, say "this unit is good," and then expect this one statement from you is going to redefine the meta. Come on dude. Be realistic. A discussion of competitive units will get siderailed when you make silly claims.

You’re not contributing anything positive to the discussion.

Aren't most "competitive" lists mostly Scouts or something else that's really unfluffy? Like take several units of 5 man scouts with no upgrades at all just to fill slots in a battalion and deploy further out to prevent your opponent from deepstriking? Clearly all the marine lists are just using cannon fodder nowadays...

 Primark G wrote:
You’re not contributing anything positive to the discussion.

Actually I am. By refuting your nonsense claims about good units i'm hopefully educating people browsing this thread, thinking about what they should add to their armies.

Oh here i'll make a primark G post:

"Hey guys what do you think about intercessors, they're totally competitive, I see them winning games like all the time."

Boom i contributed, everyone run out and playtest Primaris Intercessors, because this has not at all been tried in 8th edition.

 Primark G wrote:
You’re not contributing anything positive to the discussion.

Well, hang on. It's not about being positive. It's about creating an objective review of units, right?

I don't think he's right or that you're wrong, but this is the wrong position to take.

That is so bogus. You have not given any advice on telling which are good units to bring. Saying something is not good doesn’t count. You don’t see me trolling tyranids threads now do you??

Things that will help you against IG:

1. Gun-boat flyers. Artillery hits them on 5s turn 1. 6s if you run Tigurius. Meaning they survive. They have the range to alpha strike, too.

2. Lascannons. You can shoot past artillery.

3. Guilliman. He's all around great.

4. Razorbacks. Still one of the most efficient ways to get guns in this edition.

for example.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
You’re not contributing anything positive to the discussion.

Well, hang on. It's not about being positive. It's about creating an objective review of units, right?

I don't think he's right or that you're wrong, but this is the wrong position to take.

Marmatag doesn't strike me as "Objective". Esp when his calculations are notably off.

If you do not care much about Marines, why do you keep posting on a thread which is explicitly about Marines?

 Marmatag wrote:
Things that will help you against IG:

1. Gun-boat flyers. Artillery hits them on 5s turn 1. 6s if you run Tigurius. Meaning they survive. They have the range to alpha strike, too.

2. Lascannons. You can shoot past artillery.

3. Guilliman. He's all around great.

4. Razorbacks. Still one of the most efficient ways to get guns in this edition.

for example.

You could run Raptors and all the Dev's would be hit on 5s too.

and don't you mean Lascannons can shoot past screens to artillery? I submit that Plasma Cannons have enough range to do this if used right, too. They are also cheaper than Las by 4 points and have a higer damage output.

 Primark G wrote:
That is so bogus. You have not given any advice on telling which are good units to bring. Saying something is not good doesn’t count. You don’t see me trolling tyranids threads now do you??

It's not about "telling" people which units are good.

If saying "this is good" has value, so does "this is not good." I'm providing data and citing real examples. You are not.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zothos wrote:
If you do not care much about Marines, why do you keep posting on a thread which is explicitly about Marines?

As i already said, I hunt in these discussions for viable combos and strategies to share with friends. My blood angels friend is a sad sack who is pretty much wholly given up on 8th edition because he can't beat anyone. I'm looking for things he hasn't tried.

 Marmatag wrote:

As i already said, I hunt in these discussions for viable combos and strategies to share with friends. My blood angels friend is a sad sack who is pretty much wholly given up on 8th edition because he can't beat anyone. I'm looking for things he hasn't tried.

Try telling him to git gud.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Things that will help you against IG:

1. Gun-boat flyers. Artillery hits them on 5s turn 1. 6s if you run Tigurius. Meaning they survive. They have the range to alpha strike, too.

2. Lascannons. You can shoot past artillery.

3. Guilliman. He's all around great.

4. Razorbacks. Still one of the most efficient ways to get guns in this edition.

for example.

You could run Raptors and all the Dev's would be hit on 5s too.

and don't you mean Lascannons can shoot past screens to artillery? I submit that Plasma Cannons have enough range to do this if used right, too. They are also cheaper than Las by 4 points and have a higer damage output.

Plasma devs are solid in the right places but a list of all plasma wouldn't do jack.

 Primark G wrote:
That is so bogus. You have not given any advice on telling which are good units to bring. Saying something is not good doesn’t count. You don’t see me trolling tyranids threads now do you??

Him as a main nid player doesnt mean he doesnt know the game or another army well enough, your the one making it negative here, ive read this full thread only commenting a couple times, and i hate readying from you.

You only say something is good and then get mad if others dont agree and go off on long topics about nothing.

And the few what you call positve comments is just "I like that, or I have a firend that likes that" When talking about what IS and what ISNT competitive you need to see ALL the Pros and Cons of that unit, if that unit is easily counter, if the current meta makes it worst or better, etc... critical judgement is what competitive is,

Here is example to what this thread SHOULD be about "what is better A or B?" "Well A is, but with how the current meta is, there is X amount counters to it, but B is also bad b.c of Y, here is unit C that is what you are trying to do, it counters the meta and has a nice price point"

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

As i already said, I hunt in these discussions for viable combos and strategies to share with friends. My blood angels friend is a sad sack who is pretty much wholly given up on 8th edition because he can't beat anyone. I'm looking for things he hasn't tried.

Try telling him to git gud.

Essentially the wisdom to be had so far from you and Primark G.

IMO none of those are good reasons.

Never said it was a tournament winning army, just looked like a nice place to start.

In a thread about what is competitive in a marine army, pointing out the flaws of various units that others are claiming to be competitive is absolutely contributing something to the discussion. Saying "unit x is a great/competitive/whatever-adjective-you'd-like-to-use choice for a marine unit" is fine, but it's both valid and useful to have a discussion of the merits of such a claim. While I'm not sure I'd agree with his position, Marmatag is essentially saying "there aren't really any competitive marine units, outside of Bobby G and Fire Raptors." That may be a downer to you, but it doesn't mean that it isn't relevant and even potentially accurate, especially when he's providing the reasoning for his claims.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

As i already said, I hunt in these discussions for viable combos and strategies to share with friends. My blood angels friend is a sad sack who is pretty much wholly given up on 8th edition because he can't beat anyone. I'm looking for things he hasn't tried.

Try telling him to git gud.

Essentially the wisdom to be had so far from you and Primark G.

I seen a lot of moaning in my time and sometimes not gittin gud is truly what's needed. Skill does play a part.

Still lookn for lists if you got 'em.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Porphyrius wrote:
In a thread about what is competitive in a marine army, pointing out the flaws of various units that others are claiming to be competitive is absolutely contributing something to the discussion. Saying "unit x is a great/competitive/whatever-adjective-you'd-like-to-use choice for a marine unit" is fine, but it's both valid and useful to have a discussion of the merits of such a claim. While I'm not sure I'd agree with his position, Marmatag is essentially saying "there aren't really any competitive marine units, outside of Bobby G and Fire Raptors." That may be a downer to you, but it doesn't mean that it isn't relevant and even potentially accurate, especially when he's providing the reasoning for his claims.

*some* of his reasoning is valid. Let's be clear.

I feel he is mostly trolling the thread and has not provided much of anything constructive.

Meh, then don't respond.

. . .

Question: Anyone have clarification about Cherubs for Transport/Combat Squads? I originally thought they didn't take a spot, however they have stats and are technically a <CHAPTER> INFANTRY model. So 9 Marines and a Cherub can Combat Squad/Ride in a Rhino etc. ?

That should prolly be okay.

Except the negative side is not point out flaws. Take scout bikes, so put them up as a good answer for chaff. The response I get "well they are not shining spears."(which I debunked btw) Or plasma inceptors "oblits are better." Their "advice" is if any army has a similar but better option x is terrible.

I'll posit this right now scouts are great for creating space, and protecting characters.

I've also put forward several times that I think going mono chapter is a mistake (no response ever given).

If competitive = top tier in a GT then it is ranked by player not faction and for marines to be competitive they need to take say Sean Nayden as their General then they will make top tables at a GT.

I think that in progressive missions (the norm) RG is a bad crutch and gun lines are bad.

I also think RG is not the way to go.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Porphyrius wrote:
In a thread about what is competitive in a marine army, pointing out the flaws of various units that others are claiming to be competitive is absolutely contributing something to the discussion. Saying "unit x is a great/competitive/whatever-adjective-you'd-like-to-use choice for a marine unit" is fine, but it's both valid and useful to have a discussion of the merits of such a claim. While I'm not sure I'd agree with his position, Marmatag is essentially saying "there aren't really any competitive marine units, outside of Bobby G and Fire Raptors." That may be a downer to you, but it doesn't mean that it isn't relevant and even potentially accurate, especially when he's providing the reasoning for his claims.

*some* of his reasoning is valid. Let's be clear.

Fair, that's why I said potentially accurate

 Primark G wrote:
I have watched them take out super heavies in one volley.

You are a troll.

Superheavy chassis, for comparison (against at ten-man Hellblaster squad, worst-case scenario is outside rapid-fire without rerolls and not overcharging, best-case scenario is rapid-fire overcharging with a Chapter Master and a Lieutenant):

Baneblade chassis, T8/26W/3+. No FNP, no Inv. Average 2.2 wounds worst-case and 20.8 wounds best-case. 17% chance (best-case) of one-rounding it.
Knight chassis, T8/24W/3+/5++. Average 1.5 wounds worst-case, 13.8 wounds best-case. 1.7% chance (best-case) of one-rounding it.

It gets worse from there. The only time a unit of ten Hellblasters has a better than even chance of one-rounding a superheavy you're running the Dark Angels stratagem, and that's ~580pts for a battery you've got to get in fifteen inches of the target with. Fundamentally if you want to kill a superheavy with plasma Hellblasters are a pretty poor way to do it; Inceptors are cheaper per plasma shot and have a built-in delivery mechanism, ten plasma-cannon Devastators take up more slots and have more redundant bodies but are harder to avoid (given that most superheavies you're remotely effective against outrange your Hellblasters by a fair margin), and ten Company Veterans in a drop pod are still pretty close in points.

So whether Hellblasters are effective or not "I have watched them take out superheavies in one volley" isn't a particularly helpful statement, given how improbable and wildly inefficient doing that actually is.

Marmatag is essentially saying "there aren't really any competitive marine units, outside of Bobby G and Fire Raptors." That may be a downer to you, but it doesn't mean that it isn't relevant and even potentially accurate, especially when he's providing the reasoning for his claims.

Okay so we all know now. It does not need to be repeated belligerently ad nausem.


Okay here is some things to think about when using Hellblasters...

1) Take the stock incinerator - 30" range rapid-fire for an effective 36" range. 36" is pretty good range IMO.

2) Keep them in cover when possible for the sweet 2+ save.

3) If you play DA then if they don't move they auto reroll 1s to hit due to being Intractable. Also DA can pop a strategem for 1 CP that adds +1 dmg... really great when you rapid fire but still good if you have to move to get into range.

I position mine to during deployment typically to be a beta striker. If I know my opponent is going to want to approach me from a certain direction they will eat some red hot plasma.

Now we are getting somewhere. The issue is this: every starcannon, heavy venom cannon, predator autocannon, overcharge plasma cannon, etc is going to be first striking those hellblasters unless you cough up ~300 pts for a transport.

Your list has to offer something more compelling to shoot those weapons at, and marines kind of fail in that arena, imo. Basically, hellblasters fail if your opponent has basic target priority skills. That doesn't sound competitive.

I'm not saying Hellblasters are bad, the AP-4 is actually relevant when trying to clear hard infantry targets out of cover and the range works reasonably well, I'm just saying that "can one-round a superheavy" is a bogus comparison because they usually won't and trying is ignoring the things they're good at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Now we are getting somewhere. The issue is this: every starcannon, heavy venom cannon, predator autocannon, overcharge plasma cannon, etc is going to be first striking those hellblasters unless you cough up ~300 pts for a transport.

Your list has to offer something more compelling to shoot those weapons at, and marines kind of fail in that arena, imo. Basically, hellblasters fail if your opponent has basic target priority skills. That doesn't sound competitive.

I've found that's actually an arena the Fire Raptor is quite good at. It's huge, scary, has a nasty reputation, makes people fail at target priority skills, and can eat quite a lot of starcannons/heavy venom cannons/predator autocannons/plasma cannons/whatever.

Fire raptor is A+, I don't think anyone disputes that. We need more for a list, though

I put hellblasters in the "okay" bin. BA can't pump their offense, but I can use the FNP banner to make them troublesome to remove. Against some lists, it makes a big difference. Against others, not so much.

Also don't forget the tremendous effect -1 to hit has on them.

Martel732 wrote:


Also don't forget the tremendous effect -1 to hit has on them.

Yeah, that is massive.

Altioc is VERY popular in my play group. Probably because IG is also popular. With lascannon and autocannons, I can just lob them in without having to think at all, even though my accuracy is reduced.

That goes goes for any shooty unit - it does not make HB any worse.

Actually, it does. It vastly increases their chances of killing themselves, which marines can not afford.

 Primark G wrote:
That goes goes for any shooty unit - it does not make HB any worse.

Jumpin' Emperor on a pogo stick, yes it does! It basically prevents them from overcharging, more than halving their damage potential.

If that happens then:

Use a character for rerolls

or

Don't super charge

or

Use strategem

-1 doesn't automatically shut them down. Your army should be robust enough to adapt for these situations.

Rolls of "2" still kill your hellblasters with a -1 in play. Even with a chapter master, you still die 11% of the time.

Not supercharging defeats the entire benefit of plasma.

The stratagem is only for Ultramarines. Not a valid options most of the time.

 Primark G wrote:
If that happens then:

Use a character for rerolls

or

Don't super charge

or

Use strategem

-1 doesn't automatically shut them down. Your army should be robust enough to adapt for these situations.

WTF are you talking about? They always use rerolls if they overcharge, but -1 makes them fry themselves on 2's too, meaning that you need Chapter Master level rerolls to even reroll that, and even then the risk is usually too great. And no, an army that uses significant amount of points on Hellblasters is not robust enough that it can adapt if the damage output of that unit drops under the half.

Hellblasters are not worth their points if they can't overcharge, simple as that.

They can only reroll if there is a character nearby or in the case of smurfs there is a strategem to reroll 1s.

"...meaning that you need Chapter Master level rerolls to even reroll..."

That is what I said - did you even read it ?!

I use one six man squad.

 Primark G wrote:
They can only reroll if there is a character nearby or in the case of smurfs there is a strategem to reroll 1s.

But one obviously always puts a re-roll character next to them. A cheap captain preferably. And not everyone is a smurf.

"...meaning that you need Chapter Master level rerolls to even reroll..."
That is what I said - did you even read it ?!

And I said that it is too risky. Did you read? Furthermore, that requires one to invest into more expensive character in form of a special character (assuming one is available to your chapter, which may not be the case) or burn three command points for the CM stratagem.

I said to use a character for a reroll. I said there is the option not to super charge... DA can still inflict 2 dmg when not super charging. Every SM army has access to a captain.

 Primark G wrote:
I said to use a character for a reroll. I said there is the option not to super charge... DA can still inflict 2 dmg when not super charging. Every SM army has access to a captain.

And the captain is not enough if there's -1 in play. And not to supercharge is not an option. If you can't supercharge, you can leave the Hellblasters home. And DA are not vanilla marines.

Why are you repeating what I already said?

Martel732 wrote:
Fire raptor is A+, I don't think anyone disputes that. We need more for a list, though

I put hellblasters in the "okay" bin. BA can't pump their offense, but I can use the FNP banner to make them troublesome to remove. Against some lists, it makes a big difference. Against others, not so much.

Also don't forget the tremendous effect -1 to hit has on them.

Don't Dark Reapers basically negate the Fire Raptor though with their "always hit on 3+" Imo a major liability since Dark Reapers are basically expected.

I don't think Hellblasters are the way to go. Too many points for damage output. I think the Plasma Devs are the way to do it.

 Primark G wrote:
Why are you repeating what I already said?

I am not. You seem to be some trouble understanding.

What part of -1 to hit being debilitating to the Hellbasters you don't get?

Plasma Devs are okay. I like HBs since they are mobile and fight good in melee. Is the plasma cannon AP4?

 Primark G wrote:
Plasma Devs are okay. I like HBs since they are mobile and fight good in melee. Is the plasma cannon AP4?

AP -3 but it shoots twice(ish) at long range.

 Marmatag wrote:
Things that will help you against IG:

1. Gun-boat flyers. Artillery hits them on 5s turn 1. 6s if you run Tigurius. Meaning they survive. They have the range to alpha strike, too.

2. Lascannons. You can shoot past artillery.

3. Guilliman. He's all around great.

4. Razorbacks. Still one of the most efficient ways to get guns in this edition.

for example.

This. Many people have already suggested which units are good to take in a SM list.

Primarch G, the assertions you've been making is that these aren't the only units that are competitive. However, the issue at hand here is that you're only discussing potential damage output of certain units.

I think we can consider this post closed. We've all made points we need to make and this has now turned to mudflinging.

Are they (plasma cannon) d3 shots ?

I use a combination of HB and plasma Inceptors by the way.

 Primark G wrote:
Are they (plasma cannon) d3 shots ?

I use a combination of HB and plasma Inceptors by the way.

yep. excellent bang for buck, actually.

Not bad for sure. :-)

Martel732 wrote:
Fire raptor is A+, I don't think anyone disputes that. We need more for a list, though

Dark Reapers shred Fireraptors. You say you play in an eldari heavy meta right?

 Crimson wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Why are you repeating what I already said?

I am not. You seem to be some trouble understanding.

What part of -1 to hit being debilitating to the Hellbasters you don't get?

Question: What if your post-modified number is 0?

That is a great question. I think it counts as rolling a 1.

Modifiers are applied after rerolls.

An overcharged plasma marine fires at an Alatoic Reaper.

He rolls a 1, and a 2.

A nearby captain allows him to reroll the 1. He does, and gets a 4.

So he has rolled a 4, and a 2.

These rolls are then modified to 3, and 1.

So, a hit, and a failure resulting in his death. Roll to wound as normal and remove the marine from play after shooting.

1 is the lowest you can roll.

 Marmatag wrote:
Modifiers are applied after rerolls.

An overcharged plasma marine fires at an Alatoic Reaper.

He rolls a 1, and a 2.

A nearby captain allows him to reroll the 1. He does, and gets a 4.

So he has rolled a 4, and a 2.

These rolls are then modified to 3, and 1.

So, a hit, and a failure resulting in his death. Roll to wound as normal and remove the marine from play after shooting.

1 is the lowest you can roll.

Indeed. And this is the reason why having a captain is not good enough for overcharge if -1 to hit is in play.

BRIGADE: Vostroyan – 1074 Points – 60 PL – 9 CP’s
HQ: 90 Points – 6 PL’s
Company Commander – Kurov’s Aquilla – 30 – 2 PL
Company Commander – 30 – 2 PL (Warlord – Grand Strategist)
Company Commander – 30 – 2 PL
ELITE: 285 Points – 15 PL
Veteran Squad (60) – Laz Cannon (20), Grenade Launcher x3 (15) – 95 Points – 5 PL
Veteran Squad (60) – Laz Cannon (20), Grenade Launcher x3 (15) – 95 Points – 5 PL
Veteran Squad (60) – Laz Cannon (20), Grenade Launcher x3 (15) – 95 Points – 5 PL
TROOP: 402 Points – 18 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
FAST ATTACK: 165 Points – 9 PL
Scout Sentinel (35) – Laz Cannon (20) – 55 Points – 3 PL
Scout Sentinel (35) – Laz Cannon (20) – 55 Points – 3 PL
Scout Sentinel (35) – Laz Cannon (20) – 55 Points – 3 PL
HEAVY SUPPORT: 132 Points – 12 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL
OUTRIDER: Krieg – 353 Points – 24 PL – 1 CP
HQ: 80 – 3
Death Rider Commander (40) – Plasma Pistol (5) – 45 Points – 3 PL
ELITE: 204 – 6
Death Rider Command Squadron (68) – 68 Points – 6 PL
FAST ATTACK: 240 – 15
Death Rider Squadron (80) – 80 Points – 5 PL
Death Rider Squadron (80) – 80 Points – 5 PL
Death Rider Squadron (80) – 80 Points – 5 PL
SPEARHEAD: Cadian – 572 Points – 26 PL – 1 CP
HQ: 40 – 2
Primaris Psycher (40) – Relic of Lost Cadia – 40 Points – 2 PL
HEAVY SUPPORT: 532 – 24
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL"

Here's one that's not souped, but is pre-CA. I think. What absurdly low price is the Manticore in CA? Whatever. Here it is. I wouldn't even know where to start to fight this with marines.

Here's my take.

- Stormraven should be able to get in range with it'd heavy plasma cannon and bring one to about half and knock off a couple guard.
- Telion has the snipers start picking off company commanders. One a turn.
- The repulsors will just start clearing squads. Easily 36 models a turn, but likely way more depending on morale and dice. So 5 squads roughly. The techmarine tries to keep them in the game.
- Whirlwinds will focus on the mortars. Each of them should be able to clear a team after morale.
- Quad las pred will kill sentinels - easily two of them with Calgar nearby.
- A scout HB can throw some mortal wounds on something.

So in a turn I've removed 7 lascannons, 5 plasma guns, and 2 mortars.
That leaves 5 lascannons, 2 plasma, 2 mortars, and 3 manticores. That doesn't sound like enough to tackle two repulsors and a stormraven. And I don't quite care about the deathriders since I can fallback and shoot with rerolls.

Of course if I don't get first turn, well, that's bad news. Probably too light on anti-tank so maybe trading out a WW and SR for another quad pred and something else.

HQ Techmarine, Power Axe, Servo Arm - 62 Calgar - 200 Telion - 75 TROOPS 5x Scouts, HB - 65 5x Scouts, HB - 65 5x Scouts - 55 10x Scouts, CC, Sniper - 180 HEAVY Whirlwind, CVL - 95 Whirlwind, CVL - 95 Predator, Twin LC, 2x LC - 190 FLYER Stormraven - Twin HPC, Twin HB, 2x SSML - 281 TRANSPORT Repulsor, HOGC, Twin HB, OGC, 2x KGL, 5x FGL - 310 Repulsor, HOGC, Twin HB, OGC, 2x KGL, 5x FGL - 310

I think an important take away from this discussion is that not all marine units are equally viable for all flavors of marines.

To me helblasters are good to great for
1.) Dark angels- buff stratagem, azreal defense buff, banner to shoot again when they die on a 4+ that has them hit on 2+:
2.) Ravenguard- have a method to deploy them into optimal range, native defense buff, relic banner to shoot when you die on a 3+.
3.) space wolves- can outflank, get the regular shoot again banner.

Other chapters they are less desirable ultra marines get Rowboat, but he is not needed for them, and provides buffs they can get elsewhere.

The banner is a huge thing if you run them then overheating can actually be better than not overheating as it gets you more shots.

 Crimson wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Modifiers are applied after rerolls.

An overcharged plasma marine fires at an Alatoic Reaper.

He rolls a 1, and a 2.

A nearby captain allows him to reroll the 1. He does, and gets a 4.

So he has rolled a 4, and a 2.

These rolls are then modified to 3, and 1.

So, a hit, and a failure resulting in his death. Roll to wound as normal and remove the marine from play after shooting.

1 is the lowest you can roll.

Indeed. And this is the reason why having a captain is not good enough for overcharge if -1 to hit is in play.

Well there's not much reason to overcharge when shooting reapers. Strength 6 wounds them on 2.

Massed assault cannon dice are the way to go against Eldar.

If you're lucky you'll deploy 50+ inches away with your fliers (not always possible given the map). Then, dash across the board and light them up. This is something that works mainly for marines. Guard can do it to but their artillery is just way more efficient.

The quality of the fliers is really helping marines in 8th.

Raven Guard aggressors are another solid option for shooting reapers that aren't hiding in wave serpents (aka Ynaari).

What does Tellion do for the scouts ?

 Primark G wrote:
What does Tellion do for the scouts ?

Just +1 to hit for 1 unit of scouts per shooting phase. If it was a bubble instead of 1 unit you pick he'd be an interesting option.

A better option would be a techmarine with a conversion beamer. A couple of these guys are cheap battalion fillers and pump out some solid dice at ranged targets. And, are accessible outside of Ultramarines.

 Primark G wrote:
What is this thread:

First what it is not - a discussion on competitive units to use in a SM army.

What it is:

a) complain that SM are not competitive
b) discuss competitive units for other armies
c) berate posters that are positive about SM
d) dis good advice how to play SM competitively

Sometimes the best advice is not to do something.

 Primark G wrote:
What does Tellion do for the scouts ?

His ability to give a scout squad +1 to hit?

Thanks ! Doesn't seem worthwhile TBH.

 Marmatag wrote:
Modifiers are applied after rerolls.

An overcharged plasma marine fires at an Alatoic Reaper.

He rolls a 1, and a 2.

A nearby captain allows him to reroll the 1. He does, and gets a 4.

So he has rolled a 4, and a 2.

These rolls are then modified to 3, and 1.

So, a hit, and a failure resulting in his death. Roll to wound as normal and remove the marine from play after shooting.

1 is the lowest you can roll.

Citation. Is it the lowest post-modifier. I roll a 1, no captain around and modifiers bring it to 0 or less.

I think I've seen a differing opinion in YMDC

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Modifiers are applied after rerolls.

An overcharged plasma marine fires at an Alatoic Reaper.

He rolls a 1, and a 2.

A nearby captain allows him to reroll the 1. He does, and gets a 4.

So he has rolled a 4, and a 2.

These rolls are then modified to 3, and 1.

So, a hit, and a failure resulting in his death. Roll to wound as normal and remove the marine from play after shooting.

1 is the lowest you can roll.

Citation. Is it the lowest post-modifier. I roll a 1, no captain around and modifiers bring it to 0 or less.

You cannot roll less than 1, even after modifiers. This was addressed in the FAQ.

Q: Can a dice roll ever be modified to less than 1?

A: No. If, after all modifiers have been applied, a dice roll would be less than 1, count that result as a 1.

Cool, ty.

It would be nice though, because then those -1 to hit would modify you out of a "Gets Hot!"

In all honesty i've found that overcharged plasma just isn't worth it. At least, when people are playing against me, it isn't worth it for them, unless they're running guard, because their models are for throwing away in suicide squads.

Due to the cost of marines, and the cost of their delivery systems, it just has always been underwhelming, at least from the perspective of the person being shot. I'm almost happy when people are overcharging their guns against me. That might change with DA though. Although with the Azrael nerf, and the "meh" nature of terminators / deathwing, i'm not convinced i'll see much DA outside of a Spearhead here or there.

I thought that too until I began running numbers for it and looking at the banner. Imo a lot of potential there if done right. And as it has been noted, you don't always have to overcharge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daedalus81 wrote:

- Whirlwinds will focus on the mortars. Each of them should be able to clear a team after morale.

Issue with the Mortar Teams is that they're 3 2-wound models, so morale is hard to get them with.

Mortar teams are really annoying. If i could wave a wand and delete one unit from this game, it would be them.

They don't do that much damage though. Annoying yes, but they seem more psychological. You just accept you lose a few guys a round until you can do something about them.

Like, the example list the Mortars came to 3-4 wounds against MEQ I think.

I do wish Whirlwinds were a bit cheaper.

 Insectum7 wrote:
They don't do that much damage though. Annoying yes, but they seem more psychological. You just accept you lose a few guys a round until you can do something about them.

Like, the example list the Mortars came to 3-4 wounds against MEQ I think.

I do wish Whirlwinds were a bit cheaper.

Yes, fair. I'm Tyranids though, they wound me on 3s and i get a 6+. Just saying i hate them. On dice volume alone they will kill devastator squads. But people use them for chaff.

Some of the best marine lists will have guard as chaff / objective holders, too.

Mortars hit on 5+ so not that great vs PA TBH IMO.

 Primark G wrote:
Mortars hit on 5+ so not that great vs PA TBH IMO.

Why would they hit on 5s?

 Primark G wrote:
What does Tellion do for the scouts ?

You're the one telling Marine players what they're doing wrong. You should actually know what Tellion does.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
What does Tellion do for the scouts ?

You're the one telling Marine players what they're doing wrong. You should actually know what Tellion does.

Excellent contribution tot he thread. . .

Are they BS4? Maybe I am thinking renegades.

 Primark G wrote:
Are they BS4? Maybe I am thinking renegades.

Basic Guard are 4+. They'll probably have some Regimental upgrades too.

 Marmatag wrote:
It would be nice though, because then those -1 to hit would modify you out of a "Gets Hot!"

In all honesty i've found that overcharged plasma just isn't worth it. At least, when people are playing against me, it isn't worth it for them, unless they're running guard, because their models are for throwing away in suicide squads.

Due to the cost of marines, and the cost of their delivery systems, it just has always been underwhelming, at least from the perspective of the person being shot. I'm almost happy when people are overcharging their guns against me. That might change with DA though. Although with the Azrael nerf, and the "meh" nature of terminators / deathwing, i'm not convinced i'll see much DA outside of a Spearhead here or there.

Super underestimating a lot in their Codex then. Their land speeded characters are among the more powerful characters in the game, darkshrouds are good, as are dark talons, plasma inceptors, RW bikes are decent.

Breng77 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
It would be nice though, because then those -1 to hit would modify you out of a "Gets Hot!"

In all honesty i've found that overcharged plasma just isn't worth it. At least, when people are playing against me, it isn't worth it for them, unless they're running guard, because their models are for throwing away in suicide squads.

Due to the cost of marines, and the cost of their delivery systems, it just has always been underwhelming, at least from the perspective of the person being shot. I'm almost happy when people are overcharging their guns against me. That might change with DA though. Although with the Azrael nerf, and the "meh" nature of terminators / deathwing, i'm not convinced i'll see much DA outside of a Spearhead here or there.

Super underestimating a lot in their Codex then. Their land speeded characters are among the more powerful characters in the game, darkshrouds are good, as are dark talons, plasma inceptors, RW bikes are decent.

I still feel the best moment in the sun for DA was early on, before the guard codex.

Azrael, 50x conscript squads, commissar, scions, dark shroud, razorbacks, dreadnoughts, and plasma devs /w banner. This list was beast, every DA piece got a 4++ from Azrael including the vehicles, the conscripts were morale immune and created ridiculous walls, twin autocannon dreadnoughts for range + the asscans before the meta shifted. DA actually rivaled Guilliman for some time on this strategy.

The current DA doesn't seem near that good. Almost everything in there has had its pants nerfed off. Azrael was the linchpin, he was massively nerfed, razorbacks were nerfed, conscripts were nerfed, I think autocannons went up but i forget tbh. Also pre-azrael nerf, Azrael + 2x fire raptor was beast, because they got a 4++.

The list is just different now. It's scouts or guard infantry, azzy + helblasters + banner + lieutenant + devestators. That isn't their best list right now IMO but it is th obvious power gunline build. While razorbacks got nerfed untargetable landsleeder characters are a thing now which are stronger. Honestly gunline style armies are super easy to beat with it. My biggest worry is guard with ignores LOS shooting, but if I go first I still usually win that matchup now anyway. Easy to delete chaff turn 1 then go after the tanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think your view might be a bit skewed as a nids player about the azzy gunline. It is that tough but I beat it regularly pre codex. Immobile armies are pretty weak in the long run.

Well my army is the opposite of a gunline. I haven't played that DA list you're mentioning yet, but by the looks of it i feel i would match up well. Hopefully i'll get to find out soon.

The best DA list now has both Hellblasters and plasma Inceptors.

I think it is okay to discuss DA in this thread. :-)

 Primark G wrote:
The best DA list now has both Hellblasters and plasma Inceptors.

I think it is okay to discuss DA in this thread. :-)

Well i mean *a* DA list has these elements. I'll be curious to see if it's represented at all at the LVO or another GT.

I think Terminators are the best unit in the codex. At 40 points a head you get 2 wounds at T4 2+/5++ a power fist and storm bolter. This lets them kill 10 guards men in one turn if they charge. Also if they do charge every turn and lose no models making back their 200 point investment in just 5 turns

 Primark G wrote:
The best DA list now has both Hellblasters and plasma Inceptors.

I think it is okay to discuss DA in this thread. :-)

I disagree I think that is too many points in competing elements.

A friend is going to LVO - I helped him design his list... he has done pretty good with it. Doesn't mean it is the best list but so far is looking good.

I think terminators are a great centerpiece to fluffy armies.

 mew28 wrote:
I think Terminators are the best unit in the codex. At 40 points a head you get 2 wounds at T4 2+/5++ a power fist and storm bolter. This lets them kill 10 guards men in one turn if they charge. Also if they do charge every turn and lose no models making back their 200 point investment in just 5 turns

He prolly really means it too.

 Primark G wrote:
He prolly really means it too.

Well his post is pretty indicative of this thread. As a CSM player I was hoping to hear interesting things about Marines in this thread but instead I guess I should only be worried about certain units that need way too much support to be viable. That's a relief!

It’s a great day for traitors if you believe what you read.

 Primark G wrote:
It’s a great day for traitors if you believe what you read.

Not really. IG will handle them just the same.

I think DA/Ravenwing are possibly the other strong build besides Bobby G/Ultramarines/Dakka builds.

2 Darkshrouds create the -1 bubble for the army similar to Alaitoc or Ravenguard and we know what it does to deter gunlikes like IG. Conversely, it also lowers your vulnerability to plasma as detailed in the thread earlier. Plus then Ravenwing can take their own good flier to stack on top of this as well.

Then quite simply the Weapons of the Dark Age is cheap, easy to build around, and almost always useful. Then add Speed of the Ravenwing on top of that to add much needed reach. It's also 1 CP and pretty good in all situations too. Since both these Stratagems are only 1 CP, you don't need to mess with brigades or ways to artificially generate CP. A battalion and an outrider or two is good enough.

These powerful stratagems are simple and ubiquitous versus the standard marine ones which tend to be more toolsy and situational. Add in a unit that can provide -1 bubbles and you have some of the most powerful abilities for your small elite army.

Both this build and Bobby G go for simplicity and efficiency as opposed to the rest of the marine codex which seems to just want to give you options upon more options that are usually kind of situational.

Primark go see what you think of my killshot list over in the list forum.

Looks like two Blood Angel armies have made it to the final 8 in Vegas. Not shabby.

Indeed. 3 in the top 10.

 Primark G wrote:
Looks like two Blood Angel armies have made it to the final 8 in Vegas. Not shabby.

Oh gak! Dis gon be gud! I wish we knew some concept of the list makeup. Is melee back?

The BA are chopping it up like a Ginsu.

I wonder what happened to AM...

Anyone know their lists? Just curious.

There are a few lists posted in the Tournament Discussions thread. The only one I can see belonging to one of the BA players is from the guy currently in 4th place.

I noticed he is running quite a few Intercessor squads.

I watched him play round 6, narrow win vs Chaos buffed Fire Raptor. The Ints are there to hold objectives out in the open, they do much better in progressive objective games as opposed to end game scoring.

Most of his heavy lifting is done by characters, Death Co, and Sang Guard.

It was hilarious when the raptor blew and took out a huge chunk of his army packed around it.

 Primark G wrote:
I noticed he is running quite a few Intercessor squads.

Intercessors are one of the best units in the codex as far as I'm concerned. The range output is kinda lame but the melee output and durability is pretty awesome (if you ever get into melee, of course).

They cant take any social weapons.

 Perth wrote:
I watched him play round 6, narrow win vs Chaos buffed Fire Raptor. The Ints are there to hold objectives out in the open, they do much better in progressive objective games as opposed to end game scoring.

Most of his heavy lifting is done by characters, Death Co, and Sang Guard.

I think most if not all GW missions should switch to a progressive format.

LVO Missions you can select how you want to score. IMO this came from NOVA.

Mark's list is nice. Equipment of units is very coherant with bolters. Storm bolters for characters.
Intercessors are great as objective holders.
The list lacks explicit anti-tank.

One of the things that made Marines competitive in 2nd edition, and they were only ever "competitive" not dominant, was the rule that allowed them to fire all bolt weapons (pistol, bolter, storm bolter) twice if they remained stationary.

Being able to double their anti-infantry firepower allowed them to compensate for being outnumbered two to one or more.

Adding that back into the game would, I think, help bring them to the competitive level.

Arson Fire wrote:
There are a few lists posted in the Tournament Discussions thread. The only one I can see belonging to one of the BA players is from the guy currently in 4th place.

Spoiler:

The other listed as BA is about half guard but for BA is sanguinary guard focused with scouts. Guard is all screen units and chaff. Looks like both NA lists are using assault for anti-armor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
9th was also a half BA with guard for screens.

Looks like we can say competitive BA will use sanguinary guard and death company.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Mark's list is nice. Equipment of units is very coherant with bolters. Storm bolters for characters.
Intercessors are great as objective holders.
The list lacks explicit anti-tank.

I assume its anti-tank comes from charging them.

Very interesting list, and glad to see 4 intercessor squads in it. I run three myself and they always do great work in terms of presence, objective control, bullying and if all else fails, dying well.

Can I throw up a topic for this thread? I haven't seen much mention of FW models, and a lot of tournaments allow them now.

Specifically, what are people's opinions on Mortis and Leviathan dreads? A 4-lascannon contemptor mortis hits on a 2+, has a 5++, has a small footprint that makes LOS easier to manage, and can make use of the RG CT, all for 15pts more than a LasPred. I don't see them in use much, but I can say that, from running two myself, they can dish out a lot of highly accurate antitank fire.

Secondly, the Dakka Leviathan is a beast. For 309pts you get a really tough platform with 20 S7 -2 D2 shots a turn, hitting on 2+. T8 is a big deal, as is 4++, and finally a libby can pump it up to T9, which has a huge impact on survivability.

Running these three as anti-tank/anti-everything costs you 720pts, plus 160 for the mandatory cap and LT, leaving you with 1120 for the rest of your list.

Have other people had much experience with these units? I have nothing but good things to say about them both, but of course that's anecdotal.

I think the issue with dreads of any kind is durability and degrading profile in some cases. Invul saves are nice. But failing just 1 or 2 can cost you the whole dread or weaken it substantially.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
One of the things that made Marines competitive in 2nd edition, and they were only ever "competitive" not dominant, was the rule that allowed them to fire all bolt weapons (pistol, bolter, storm bolter) twice if they remained stationary.

Being able to double their anti-infantry firepower allowed them to compensate for being outnumbered two to one or more.

Adding that back into the game would, I think, help bring them to the competitive level.

Marines weren't competitive in 2nd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:
There are a few lists posted in the Tournament Discussions thread. The only one I can see belonging to one of the BA players is from the guy currently in 4th place.

Spoiler:

The other listed as BA is about half guard but for BA is sanguinary guard focused with scouts. Guard is all screen units and chaff. Looks like both NA lists are using assault for anti-armor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
9th was also a half BA with guard for screens.

Looks like we can say competitive BA will use sanguinary guard and death company.

I still don't think DC are that great.

I still don't think DC are that great.

The enemy cannot ignore them.
This gives you some tactical flexibility during the game.

They are really easy to kill. Big problem, imo.

If they are killing them they aren't killing other things. You wanted tourney results, here they are. If you still don't like them then maybe you chose the wrong faction. It is notable that guard in the top lists was basically all chaff. Guard is very beatable so long as you don't try to out shoot them. My 2k list just tabled a guard gunline (3 mantacors, 2 basilisks, 100 guardsman otherstuff). After going second.

He'll inevitably have to play an Alaitoc list now that he's in the top 8, so it'll be interesting to see how that pans out. I wouldn't count him out, and as the only non-soup list that isn't Eldar I would really LIKE to see him win, but... we shall see.

Breng77 wrote:
If they are killing them they aren't killing other things. You wanted tourney results, here they are. If you still don't like them then maybe you chose the wrong faction. It is notable that guard in the top lists was basically all chaff. Guard is very beatable so long as you don't try to out shoot them. My 2k list just tabled a guard gunline (3 mantacors, 2 basilisks, 100 guardsman otherstuff). After going second.

Maybe I did. I really hate the rules for DC in 8th. 2K list of what? Because trying to melee them seems futile.

DC are great. Just because you don’t like them doesn’t mean they aren’t good. I think you’re trolling this thread TBH.

 Primark G wrote:
DC are great. Just because you don’t like them doesn’t mean they aren’t good. I think you’re trolling this thread TBH.

Great at what? Giving up 20pts/wound when they are inevitably shot in the face?

My 2k list

Battalion - White Scars

Captain on bike, storm bolter
Lieutenant jump pack storm bolter

3 x 5 scouts (1 bolter squad, 1 shotgun squad, 1 ccw squad)

9 scout bikes
5 aggressors (bolters)

Outrider -Dark Angels
Sableclaw
Talonmaster-warlord brilliant strategist, Heaven fall blade
2x 3 plasma inceptors
5 man Bike squad 2 plasma combo plasma MM attack bike
4 man bike squad 2 plasma combo-plasma MM attack bike.

 Primark G wrote:
DC are great. Just because you don’t like them doesn’t mean they aren’t good. I think you’re trolling this thread TBH.

As someone who's been arguing with Martel for quite a long time I don't think he's trolling, I think he's expressing honest frustration with trying to play a subpar army just because he likes it in a hyper-competitive playgroup. Whether he's always justified in his complaints is another matter.

Turn 1 I lost 6 scout bikes, all the aggressors, 5 scouts across the three squads, and 2 bikes.

I tabled the last BA guy who tried the Lemartes bomb against me. They just can't kill enough before they die like slime. It was satisfying because he sounded just like some of the posters on here. Lemartes bomb is easily defended by anyone with a pulse. I'm happy for the LVO guy, but I don't think DC are a good unit in a general sense.

Yet they made the top 8 in Vegas which shows they are very viable.

Look at who he played to get there. It's not impressive. I can almost guarantee I'd beat that list.

Lol you are a troll indeed.

Martel732 wrote:
Look at who he played to get there. It's not impressive. I can almost guarantee I'd beat that list.

The Chaos list he beat in the last round was pretty legitimate. Again, we'll have to see how he does against Alaitoc, if he wins that game then this is a very different discussion.

You offer no "why's" to any of your posts. Who is the real troll. I've described very specifically why I think DC suck. I've backed this up against live opponents. How often do you face DC and do you actually lose to them?

The only trolling I've seen in this thread is coming from you PrimarkG, for all the reasons that have already been pointed out. It's great that you're having success and think your army is fantastic, but you're going to have to do better if you want to convince others about why it's so good.

Primaris is the kind of marine player that talks crap but then wonders why his scoutless army gets crippled turn 1 by quadruple scions.

Scouts, by the way, made the DC blob lose. Scouts. Think about that before you go on about how awesome they are.

DC make it to the top 8 in Vegas is proof they are good and that can’t be denied. That has a lot more veracity than an anomonus poster attempting to discredit them.

The issue with look at who he played is that many of those also won a bunch of games. His strength of schedule is about average for the top 8. Did he face his worst matchup probably not. But winning 6 games at a major is a feat for any army. It is easy to look at lists and say you can beat it and another to do so with the pilot behind it. Go look at Sean naydens Eldar list and tell me it looks super strong to you.

It’s easy to post something here but to make the top 8 at the largest GT in the world speaks true volume.

 Primark G wrote:
DC make it to the top 8 in Vegas is proof they are good and that can’t be denied. That has a lot more veracity than an anomonus poster attempting to discredit them.

The fact that they did well in that tournament is a perfectly valid data point for their viability, yes. But one data point does not a conclusion make, and it certainly isn't the only evidence necessary to declare DC the emperor's gift to a BA list. I don't know enough about DC to comment on their abilities, but the fact that this list has done well doesn't mean that such a list is always going to do well, or even prove to be viable more than 50% of the time. It's worth discussing, but it's not the end of the story.

Well sure the guy playing them said they are largely a distraction unit. You cannot ignore them which keeps his other stuff alive. If we are looking at data and performance sanguinary guard are the better choice.

It’s the combination of the two units IMO.

 Primark G wrote:
DC make it to the top 8 in Vegas is proof they are good and that can’t be denied. That has a lot more veracity than an anomonus poster attempting to discredit them.

...AND Rubric Marines did that before in 6th edition.

Like, seriously, does everyone just ignore that?

A 500 pt distraction unit? Do you play this game?

Breng77 wrote:
...You cannot ignore them...

(Important part of "distraction unit" emphasized. If a unit is bad at killing things it's also a bad distraction because it can be casually removed or ignored.)

Martel732 wrote:
A 500 pt distraction unit? Do you play this game?

500 points? 312 in the list in question, less in some other lists. Seems within reason for a unit that works as a solid distraction.

 Porphyrius wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
DC make it to the top 8 in Vegas is proof they are good and that can’t be denied. That has a lot more veracity than an anomonus poster attempting to discredit them.

The fact that they did well in that tournament is a perfectly valid data point for their viability, yes. But one data point does not a conclusion make, and it certainly isn't the only evidence necessary to declare DC the emperor's gift to a BA list. I don't know enough about DC to comment on their abilities, but the fact that this list has done well doesn't mean that such a list is always going to do well, or even prove to be viable more than 50% of the time. It's worth discussing, but it's not the end of the story.

Keep in mind, this isn't just one data point - the LVO consists of several rounds of individual games. Not saying you're entirely wrong, but we have to respect the data for what it really is.

I'm counting lemates, too.

Why would you do that? he might not be with them all the time.

I've seen very few dc bomb lists w/o lemartes.

Breng77 wrote:
My 2k list

Battalion - White Scars

Captain on bike, storm bolter
Lieutenant jump pack storm bolter

3 x 5 scouts (1 bolter squad, 1 shotgun squad, 1 ccw squad)

9 scout bikes
5 aggressors (bolters)

Outrider -Dark Angels
Sableclaw
Talonmaster-warlord brilliant strategist, Heaven fall blade
2x 3 plasma inceptors

May I ask you why you have 3 different wargears on you scouts ? 1 full shotguns, 1 full ccw and 1 bolter ?
5 man Bike squad 2 plasma combo plasma MM attack bike
4 man bike squad 2 plasma combo-plasma MM attack bike.

Martel732 wrote:
I've seen very few dc bomb lists w/o lemartes.

You don't need to make a bomb to use a unit


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 godardc wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
My 2k list

Battalion - White Scars

Captain on bike, storm bolter
Lieutenant jump pack storm bolter

3 x 5 scouts (1 bolter squad, 1 shotgun squad, 1 ccw squad)

9 scout bikes
5 aggressors (bolters)

Outrider -Dark Angels
Sableclaw
Talonmaster-warlord brilliant strategist, Heaven fall blade
2x 3 plasma inceptors

May I ask you why you have 3 different wargears on you scouts ? 1 full shotguns, 1 full ccw and 1 bolter ?
5 man Bike squad 2 plasma combo plasma MM attack bike
4 man bike squad 2 plasma combo-plasma MM attack bike.

May I ask you why you have 3 different wargears on you scouts ? 1 full shotguns, 1 full ccw and 1 bolter ?

Part of it is what I own, though I could use more bolter or more CCW scouts. Using white scars I like the shotguns at times because I get the extra advance distance, so being able to shoot while advancing helps at times. Bolter guys are better at holding back field objectives. I also like the CCW guys for extra punch. Honestly though they mostly hide so it really doesn't matter much.

Thank you, I was planning on getting more scouts as I like the models and they are pretty mandoatory now to avoid all the deep strike etc. shenanigans
I think I will equip them like you

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

 Porphyrius wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
DC make it to the top 8 in Vegas is proof they are good and that can’t be denied. That has a lot more veracity than an anomonus poster attempting to discredit them.

The fact that they did well in that tournament is a perfectly valid data point for their viability, yes. But one data point does not a conclusion make, and it certainly isn't the only evidence necessary to declare DC the emperor's gift to a BA list. I don't know enough about DC to comment on their abilities, but the fact that this list has done well doesn't mean that such a list is always going to do well, or even prove to be viable more than 50% of the time. It's worth discussing, but it's not the end of the story.

Keep in mind, this isn't just one data point - the LVO consists of several rounds of individual games. Not saying you're entirely wrong, but we have to respect the data for what it really is.

Definitely valid, thanks for the clarification.

 Porphyrius wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
DC make it to the top 8 in Vegas is proof they are good and that can’t be denied. That has a lot more veracity than an anomonus poster attempting to discredit them.

The fact that they did well in that tournament is a perfectly valid data point for their viability, yes. But one data point does not a conclusion make, and it certainly isn't the only evidence necessary to declare DC the emperor's gift to a BA list. I don't know enough about DC to comment on their abilities, but the fact that this list has done well doesn't mean that such a list is always going to do well, or even prove to be viable more than 50% of the time. It's worth discussing, but it's not the end of the story.

This. We're talking basic statistics 101 stuff here, the fact that people in this thread still do not understand this despite it being pointed out repeatedly (see Thousand Sons example) is getting rather silly.

It doesn't make them game breaking, but it is a counter example to them being a bad unit. Especially when multiple people in the top 10 at a huge event run them.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Porphyrius wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
DC make it to the top 8 in Vegas is proof they are good and that can’t be denied. That has a lot more veracity than an anomonus poster attempting to discredit them.

The fact that they did well in that tournament is a perfectly valid data point for their viability, yes. But one data point does not a conclusion make, and it certainly isn't the only evidence necessary to declare DC the emperor's gift to a BA list. I don't know enough about DC to comment on their abilities, but the fact that this list has done well doesn't mean that such a list is always going to do well, or even prove to be viable more than 50% of the time. It's worth discussing, but it's not the end of the story.

This. We're talking basic statistics 101 stuff here, the fact that people in this thread still do not understand this despite it being pointed out repeatedly (see Thousand Sons example) is getting rather silly.

Yeah I'm sick of my point being ignored.

I still think it's worth analyizing exactly what DC are bringing to a list that make it so strong.

If it were just one army that was doing well with it that would be one thing but 3/8 running some form of BA seems like a little more than luck.

That being said there are 4 guilliman lists in the top 100, 3 of which are relying on OP/undercosted fire raptors. I think there is one raveguard/IG soup list that is running lias and a bunch of devs + a sternguard bomb in the top 100 as well for what it's worth, and a salamanders list which is running the fire raptor and a sicarian.

Looks like competitive marines are running BA, SW, Fire raptors or soup. At least at the LVO. A couple DA players are doing okay with plasma but hellblasters, plasma ceptors and all the other "really good" units (cough centurions) that some people on this board have been going on about are pretty absent from most lists...

Oh and the guy who is going to win the thing thinks shining spears are OP if that counts for anything, and he's pretty much running an eldar list that I play against at my FLGS...(actually one of 3 but Nicks has less dark reapers)

For those saying single data point for death company, thy appear in 4 lists (those called out as Blood Angels) in the top 50 all of which went 5-1 or better. Now this doesn't mean they won because they included D.C. But it certainly means that these lists did not win 21 games in spite of their inclusion.

I saw one of these lists running Scout bikes (3 units) which I called out as a good unit. Many people running scouts (another unit I called out as good), you already mentioned inceptors and helblasters for DA. Top DA list ran landspeeder characters which I called out as good for them.

It's probably their immunity to first strike. I just can't understand why they don't die instantly the turn after they drop.

Of the 11 released codexes, there are 4 loyal space marine codexes and 2 chaos space marine codexes.

So still half or more than half.

So when people compare results from one Codex against 4-6 codexes, it's not really fair - if space marines and chaos space marines take 4 out of 8 spots, I would say they would just meeting expectations.

Also, what other faction doesn't use any of their iconic troops in any capacity?
- AM uses lots of guardsmen, Lemon Russ
- Tyranids use genestealers
- Orks mass boyz
- Eldar use rangers, dark reapers (too many perhaps)

Only Space marine and Chaos space marines fight with scouts, cultists, empty transports, empty flying transports, and commanders/Primarchs. Actual space marines? None. Actual terminators? None.

There is something very wrong with the 13 point space marine units, 45-50 point terminators, and it shows because nobody uses them......

Look at the units that are playable, and that's probably where the balance should be for these units -
- Berserkers and Death Company come with extra attacks.
- Sag Guard are terminators with far FAR better movement, same hp and save, and cost 25% less points. 25% less points for a better unit! Movement is king in competitive, and having 12 movement instead of 5 or 4 inches is HUGE. Terminators at 45 points with their crawling speed is just not balanced, and that's dozens of units across multiple codexes.

Same with space marines bodies - from tacs to assault, their measly one attack is just not cutting it, not for 13 points. The fancy versions (chosen, vets) with 2 attacks are 16-17 points are not good either. The sweet spot, based on what is used at ITC, is 17 point units with 3 attacks - Berserkers and Death Company (technically only on turn charged/when charged, but that's how long these high DPS, low Hp units are going to last anyway).

I've been saying for some time that marines are not 13 pt models. And terminators definitely aren't 40.

Martel732 wrote:
It's probably their immunity to first strike. I just can't understand why they don't die instantly the turn after they drop.

They do it by remaining locked after an assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BA are doing well as I predicted when the first dex dropped. They can reliably get 2 units deep into combat on the first turn without counter (except against eldar with a huge unit of reapers) Against eldar they just lose.

How are they getting two units?

If they go first they use the pregame move stratagem, and then use the 3d6 charge on a different unit.

Martel732 wrote:
How are they getting two units?

deep strike with 3d6 charge and a charge with double move DC.

The double move is risky if you don't go first. I think mobile army design is a bigger boon for ITC. Upon wings of fire is stupid with inceptors.

Obviously you don't have to if you go second.

But you have to deploy forward, which is very risky.

Not if you go first.

You have to set up, then find out who is going first, and then pop the stratagem IF you go first. But your dudes are still all screwed if you go 2nd.

Or you pop it either way and move into cover out of Los if going second.

I never thought of that, to be honest. Wow, that's a 2 CP gamble in a list that is almost assuredly not a brigade.

I would burn 2 CP for a game winner.

It's not even close to a game winner. That's the real problem. It's still just assault, even if it works.

Martel732 wrote:
It's not even close to a game winner. That's the real problem. It's still just assault, even if it works.

Assaulting 1 unit could win the game tho...

A unit of 8-10 Dark Reapers with Yvairne and a Spiritseer close can Move our of LoS blocking cover > Guide/doom > Souldburst Shoot > shoot in shoot phase > move back into ignore LoS cover > Repeat every turn

If you can stop that 1 unit from doing that, that is a huge plus for you. Same thing for some other armies, there normally is 2-3 key units that if you take out right away, it makes it easier for you.

You can't reach that far, even with Forlorn fury. You gonna hit some other unit first for sure if nothing else. Remember you can't use descent after forlorn fury.

It was an example.. there are 100's of variables, you need to see the table and who your playing and how things are set up to know if you want to use it or not.

ALso you have DSing units that charge too, if you have a forward threat it gives you room to breath, or use them to hit something else.

That's true. If you have a large DC squad, and another DS bomb you probably are getting the +1, making it not such a poor gamble.

Don't you play BA?

I mean competitive lists are going to have 8-10 CP so you can spend them for things like this and not lose out. Remember even going second you can move forward into an LOS blocker then move out on turn 2 to assault. Most of the time you will still hit a screen with this charge, the hope is to do enough to kill most of the screen so your other units coming in turn 2 can eat stuff. This is likely why bolters are on these guys most times. 30 bolter shots at a few chaff squads, then charge a few others then try to tie up something with pile in moves.

Didn't this BA player misuse his stratagems the whole tournament? Either super ignorant or blatant cheater. Wasn't he caught using the Descent of Angels strat without DS? That's how he charged the fire raptor.

It's frustrating but half of being a good player is auditing your opponent properly.

 Primark G wrote:
Don't you play BA?

Yes, but I haven't been using DC that much this edition.

 Marmatag wrote:
Didn't this BA player misuse his stratagems the whole tournament? Either super ignorant or blatant cheater. Wasn't he caught using the Descent of Angels strat without DS? That's how he charged the fire raptor.

It's frustrating but half of being a good player is auditing your opponent properly.

Absolutely. Ain't not one charging my fire-raptor turn 1 without showing me the god dang stratagem first. Holy crap people.

 Marmatag wrote:
Didn't this BA player misuse his stratagems the whole tournament? Either super ignorant or blatant cheater. Wasn't he caught using the Descent of Angels strat without DS? That's how he charged the fire raptor.

Any proof of this? It sounds like a rather huge oversight if it happened like you say..

Ushtarador wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Didn't this BA player misuse his stratagems the whole tournament? Either super ignorant or blatant cheater. Wasn't he caught using the Descent of Angels strat without DS? That's how he charged the fire raptor.

Any proof of this? It sounds like a rather huge oversight if it happened like you say..

It's been confirmed by dakka members watching the twitch feed. If you have a Warhammer TV account you can watch the game yourself.

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Don't you play BA?

Yes, but I haven't been using DC that much this edition.

They must be pretty good then - I will have to give them a try.

I think that LVO proved is that Blood Angels are quite competitive, and using their iconic units, not with some spammy guimminicky combo like stormravens in the first months of 8th edition.

Maybe they can't compete agaisnt Dark Reaper spam, ok. But who can? They will be nerfed, thats for sure.

If it's the same list posted a few pages ago, I think it's illegal too. I know blood angels can have chain swords on their lieutenants but the list showed chain swords on the intercessor sergeants. I don't think they can do that.

 Galas wrote:
Maybe they can't compete agaisnt Dark Reaper spam, ok. But who can? They will be nerfed, thats for sure.

Oh wouldn't it be fun if GW does here again one of their typical boost broken unit rather than nerf it

 Galas wrote:


Maybe they can't compete agaisnt Dark Reaper spam, ok. But who can? They will be nerfed, thats for sure.

An ork green tide maybe?

BA Intercessor sergeants can take chainswords - it comes in the kit.