What are competitive marine lists running?

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**Insectum7**

Martel732 wrote:
Fire raptor is A+, I don't think anyone disputes that. We need more for a list, though

I put hellblasters in the "okay" bin. BA can't pump their offense, but I can use the FNP banner to make them troublesome to remove. Against some lists, it makes a big difference. Against others, not so much.

Also don't forget the tremendous effect -1 to hit has on them.

Don't Dark Reapers basically negate the Fire Raptor though with their "always hit on 3+" Imo a major liability since Dark Reapers are basically expected.

I don't think Hellblasters are the way to go. Too many points for damage output. I think the Plasma Devs are the way to do it.

**Crimson**

Primark G wrote:
Why are you repeating what I already said?

I am not. You seem to be some trouble understanding.

What part of -1 to hit being debilitating to the Hellbasters you don't get?

**Primark G**

Plasma Devs are okay. I like HBs since they are mobile and fight good in melee. Is the plasma cannon AP4?

**Insectum7**

Primark G wrote:
Plasma Devs are okay. I like HBs since they are mobile and fight good in melee. Is the plasma cannon AP4?

AP -3 but it shoots twice(ish) at long range.

**skchsan**

Marmatag wrote:
Things that will help you against IG:

1. Gun-boat flyers. Artillery hits them on 5s turn 1. 6s if you run Tigurius. Meaning they survive. They have the range to alpha strike, too.

2. Lascannons. You can shoot past artillery.

3. Guilliman. He's all around great.

4. Razorbacks. Still one of the most efficient ways to get guns in this edition.

for example.

This. Many people have already suggested which units are good to take in a SM list.

Primarch G, the assertions you've been making is that these aren't the only units that are competitive. However, the issue at hand here is that you're only discussing potential damage output of certain units.

I think we can consider this post closed. We've all made points we need to make and this has now turned to mudflinging.

**Primark G**

Are they (plasma cannon) d3 shots ?

I use a combination of HB and plasma Inceptors by the way.

**Insectum7**

Primark G wrote:
Are they (plasma cannon) d3 shots ?

I use a combination of HB and plasma Inceptors by the way.

yep. excellent bang for buck, actually.

**Primark G**

Not bad for sure. :-)

Martel732 wrote:
Fire raptor is A+, I don't think anyone disputes that. We need more for a list, though

Dark Reapers shred Fireraptors. You say you play in an eldari heavy meta right?

**Insectum7**

Crimson wrote:
Primark G wrote:
Why are you repeating what I already said?

I am not. You seem to be some trouble understanding.

What part of -1 to hit being debilitating to the Hellbasters you don't get?

Question: What if your post-modified number is 0?

**Primark G**

That is a great question. I think it counts as rolling a 1.

**Marmatag**

Modifiers are applied after rerolls.

An overcharged plasma marine fires at an Alatoic Reaper.

He rolls a 1, and a 2.

A nearby captain allows him to reroll the 1. He does, and gets a 4.

So he has rolled a 4, and a 2.

These rolls are then modified to 3, and 1.

So, a hit, and a failure resulting in his death. Roll to wound as normal and remove the marine from play after shooting.

1 is the lowest you can roll.

**Crimson**

Marmatag wrote:
Modifiers are applied after rerolls.

An overcharged plasma marine fires at an Alatoic Reaper.

He rolls a 1, and a 2.

A nearby captain allows him to reroll the 1. He does, and gets a 4.

So he has rolled a 4, and a 2.

These rolls are then modified to 3, and 1.

So, a hit, and a failure resulting in his death. Roll to wound as normal and remove the marine from play after shooting.

1 is the lowest you can roll.

Indeed. And this is the reason why having a captain is not good enough for overcharge if -1 to hit is in play.

**Daedalus81**

BRIGADE: Vostroyan – 1074 Points – 60 PL – 9 CP’s
HQ: 90 Points – 6 PL’s
Company Commander – Kurov’s Aquilla – 30 – 2 PL
Company Commander – 30 – 2 PL (Warlord – Grand Strategist)
Company Commander – 30 – 2 PL
ELITE: 285 Points – 15 PL
Veteran Squad (60) – Laz Cannon (20), Grenade Launcher x3 (15) – 95 Points – 5 PL
Veteran Squad (60) – Laz Cannon (20), Grenade Launcher x3 (15) – 95 Points – 5 PL
Veteran Squad (60) – Laz Cannon (20), Grenade Launcher x3 (15) – 95 Points – 5 PL
TROOP: 402 Points – 18 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
Infantry Squad (40) – Laz Cannon (20), Plasma Gun (7) – 67 Points – 3 PL
FAST ATTACK: 165 Points – 9 PL
Scout Sentinel (35) – Laz Cannon (20) – 55 Points – 3 PL
Scout Sentinel (35) – Laz Cannon (20) – 55 Points – 3 PL
Scout Sentinel (35) – Laz Cannon (20) – 55 Points – 3 PL
HEAVY SUPPORT: 132 Points – 12 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL
Heavy Weapons Team (18) – Mortar x3 (15) – 33 Points – 3 PL
OUTRIDER: Krieg – 353 Points – 24 PL – 1 CP
HQ: 80 – 3
Death Rider Commander (40) – Plasma Pistol (5) – 45 Points – 3 PL
ELITE: 204 – 6
Death Rider Command Squadron (68) – 68 Points – 6 PL
FAST ATTACK: 240 – 15
Death Rider Squadron (80) – 80 Points – 5 PL
Death Rider Squadron (80) – 80 Points – 5 PL
Death Rider Squadron (80) – 80 Points – 5 PL
SPEARHEAD: Cadian – 572 Points – 26 PL – 1 CP
HQ: 40 – 2
Primaris Psycher (40) – Relic of Lost Cadia – 40 Points – 2 PL
HEAVY SUPPORT: 532 – 24
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL
Manticore (125) – Heavy Bolter (8) – 133 Points – 8 PL"

Here's one that's not souped, but is pre-CA. I think. What absurdly low price is the Manticore in CA? Whatever. Here it is. I wouldn't even know where to start to fight this with marines.

Here's my take.

- Stormraven should be able to get in range with it'd heavy plasma cannon and bring one to about half and knock off a couple guard.
- Telion has the snipers start picking off company commanders. One a turn.
- The repulsors will just start clearing squads. Easily 36 models a turn, but likely way more depending on morale and dice. So 5 squads roughly. The techmarine tries to keep them in the game.
- Whirlwinds will focus on the mortars. Each of them should be able to clear a team after morale.
- Quad las pred will kill sentinels - easily two of them with Calgar nearby.
- A scout HB can throw some mortal wounds on something.

So in a turn I've removed 7 lascannons, 5 plasma guns, and 2 mortars.
That leaves 5 lascannons, 2 plasma, 2 mortars, and 3 manticores. That doesn't sound like enough to tackle two repulsors and a stormraven. And I don't quite care about the deathriders since I can fallback and shoot with rerolls.

Of course if I don't get first turn, well, that's bad news. Probably too light on anti-tank so maybe trading out a WW and SR for another quad pred and something else.

**Breng77**

I think an important take away from this discussion is that not all marine units are equally viable for all flavors of marines.

To me helblasters are good to great for
1.) Dark angels- buff stratagem, azreal defense buff, banner to shoot again when they die on a 4+ that has them hit on 2+:
2.) Ravenguard- have a method to deploy them into optimal range, native defense buff, relic banner to shoot when you die on a 3+.
3.) space wolves- can outflank, get the regular shoot again banner.

Other chapters they are less desirable ultra marines get Rowboat, but he is not needed for them, and provides buffs they can get elsewhere.

The banner is a huge thing if you run them then overheating can actually be better than not overheating as it gets you more shots.

**Marmatag**

Crimson wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
Modifiers are applied after rerolls.

An overcharged plasma marine fires at an Alatoic Reaper.

He rolls a 1, and a 2.

A nearby captain allows him to reroll the 1. He does, and gets a 4.

So he has rolled a 4, and a 2.

These rolls are then modified to 3, and 1.

So, a hit, and a failure resulting in his death. Roll to wound as normal and remove the marine from play after shooting.

1 is the lowest you can roll.

Indeed. And this is the reason why having a captain is not good enough for overcharge if -1 to hit is in play.

Well there's not much reason to overcharge when shooting reapers. Strength 6 wounds them on 2.

Massed assault cannon dice are the way to go against Eldar.

If you're lucky you'll deploy 50+ inches away with your fliers (not always possible given the map). Then, dash across the board and light them up. This is something that works mainly for marines. Guard can do it to but their artillery is just way more efficient.

The quality of the fliers is really helping marines in 8th.

Raven Guard aggressors are another solid option for shooting reapers that aren't hiding in wave serpents (aka Ynaari).

**Primark G**

What does Tellion do for the scouts ?

**Marmatag**

Primark G wrote:
What does Tellion do for the scouts ?

Just +1 to hit for 1 unit of scouts per shooting phase. If it was a bubble instead of 1 unit you pick he'd be an interesting option.

A better option would be a techmarine with a conversion beamer. A couple of these guys are cheap battalion fillers and pump out some solid dice at ranged targets. And, are accessible outside of Ultramarines.

**mew28**

Primark G wrote:
What is this thread:

First what it is not - a discussion on competitive units to use in a SM army.

What it is:

a) complain that SM are not competitive
b) discuss competitive units for other armies
c) berate posters that are positive about SM
d) dis good advice how to play SM competitively

Sometimes the best advice is not to do something.

**Ordana**

Primark G wrote:
What does Tellion do for the scouts ?

His ability to give a scout squad +1 to hit?

**Primark G**

Thanks ! Doesn't seem worthwhile TBH.

**Insectum7**

Marmatag wrote:
Modifiers are applied after rerolls.

An overcharged plasma marine fires at an Alatoic Reaper.

He rolls a 1, and a 2.

A nearby captain allows him to reroll the 1. He does, and gets a 4.

So he has rolled a 4, and a 2.

These rolls are then modified to 3, and 1.

So, a hit, and a failure resulting in his death. Roll to wound as normal and remove the marine from play after shooting.

1 is the lowest you can roll.

Citation. Is it the lowest post-modifier. I roll a 1, no captain around and modifiers bring it to 0 or less.

I think I've seen a differing opinion in YMDC

**Marmatag**

Insectum7 wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
Modifiers are applied after rerolls.

An overcharged plasma marine fires at an Alatoic Reaper.

He rolls a 1, and a 2.

A nearby captain allows him to reroll the 1. He does, and gets a 4.

So he has rolled a 4, and a 2.

These rolls are then modified to 3, and 1.

So, a hit, and a failure resulting in his death. Roll to wound as normal and remove the marine from play after shooting.

1 is the lowest you can roll.

Citation. Is it the lowest post-modifier. I roll a 1, no captain around and modifiers bring it to 0 or less.

You cannot roll less than 1, even after modifiers. This was addressed in the FAQ.

Q: Can a dice roll ever be modified to less than 1?

A: No. If, after all modifiers have been applied, a dice roll would be less than 1, count that result as a 1.

**Insectum7**

Cool, ty.

**Marmatag**

It would be nice though, because then those -1 to hit would modify you out of a "Gets Hot!"

In all honesty i've found that overcharged plasma just isn't worth it. At least, when people are playing against me, it isn't worth it for them, unless they're running guard, because their models are for throwing away in suicide squads.

Due to the cost of marines, and the cost of their delivery systems, it just has always been underwhelming, at least from the perspective of the person being shot. I'm almost happy when people are overcharging their guns against me. That might change with DA though. Although with the Azrael nerf, and the "meh" nature of terminators / deathwing, i'm not convinced i'll see much DA outside of a Spearhead here or there.

**Insectum7**

I thought that too until I began running numbers for it and looking at the banner. Imo a lot of potential there if done right. And as it has been noted, you don't always have to overcharge.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daedalus81 wrote:

- Whirlwinds will focus on the mortars. Each of them should be able to clear a team after morale.

Issue with the Mortar Teams is that they're 3 2-wound models, so morale is hard to get them with.

**Marmatag**

Mortar teams are really annoying. If i could wave a wand and delete one unit from this game, it would be them.

**Insectum7**

They don't do that much damage though. Annoying yes, but they seem more psychological. You just accept you lose a few guys a round until you can do something about them.

Like, the example list the Mortars came to 3-4 wounds against MEQ I think.

I do wish Whirlwinds were a bit cheaper.

**Marmatag**

Insectum7 wrote:
They don't do that much damage though. Annoying yes, but they seem more psychological. You just accept you lose a few guys a round until you can do something about them.

Like, the example list the Mortars came to 3-4 wounds against MEQ I think.

I do wish Whirlwinds were a bit cheaper.

Yes, fair. I'm Tyranids though, they wound me on 3s and i get a 6+. Just saying i hate them. On dice volume alone they will kill devastator squads. But people use them for chaff.

Some of the best marine lists will have guard as chaff / objective holders, too.

**Primark G**

Mortars hit on 5+ so not that great vs PA TBH IMO.

**Insectum7**

Primark G wrote:
Mortars hit on 5+ so not that great vs PA TBH IMO.

Why would they hit on 5s?