Arachnofiend wrote: Well, time to get mad I guess. ZERO synergy options designed for Rubricae. Meanwhile tzaangors get +1 to hit and the cheapest fight twice stratagem in the game.
I take back what I said before, this is in fact Codex: Tzaangors.
The question is how much did you spend a little over a year ago on an army that has little to no use now?
For me it was about 200US for a box of Exalted, 2 Scarabs, and the 7th Codex to go with the NINE SQUADS OF RUBRICS I ALREADY HAD, so I'm slightly salty.
Spoiler:
Three Squads are unassembled. These will eventually end up being the Rubric Havocs
I am disappointed and will look through the book first before I inevitably buy it because I have a problem, and then making some Open Play datasheets for Rubric Havocs.
But over all, it doesn't look too bad. We have at least two good relics, 18 powers to choose from so everybody will be able to do something, and hopefully GW will change Rubrics to be able to take Soulfire cannons in squads of 5 like they can in the regular chaos dex. The third may not happen but 2/3 is good, right?
I think the biggest disappointment is the revelation that Aspiring/Scarab Occult Sorcerers can ONLY take from the Discipline of Change. If Rubrics could provide their own Prescience then that would be an argument for them, but the only spells that synergize with squads of Rubricae are Weaver of Fates and Glamour of Tzeentch, both of which you can't put on your Rubric squads because Magnus needs to cast them on himself.
What's with all the moaning about Scarabs/Rubics? Both units are getting better with more casting options, more mobility and some tasty support units.
A full squad of Rubics arriving via web-way then Glamer of Tzeetching itself is quite tasty, with the option of Prescience, Reroll auras and Vets of the long war, if you really want to deal the pain. Land them in cover (not necessarily easy given the size of the unit) and they are neigh on impossible to shift except in assault.
The goats seem good, yes but seem like they will rely on combining multiple units/buffs to be effective where the marines can self buff and work relatively independently of the rest of your force.
Not entirely convinced by the Mutilith, 4+ save is a significant disadvantage compared to say a Maulerfiend, that I don't think 2 wounds make up for. But those Buffs are super tasty, especially if your fielding some larger units , or manage to get multiple beasts in the enemy lines.
Astmeister wrote: Will there be a tzaangor hq in case you want to play without thousand sons? I have purely desciples of tzeentch and want to play them in 40k.
No, and thank god for that. The Tzaangor Shaman is an elite choice, you have to run at least one real Thousand Sons unit if you want to play your goat herd.
I don't know why people think Rubrics haven't gotten better. The extension of spell range is very beneficial for buffing them, the Mutalith is beneficial, they can deep strike, their sorcerors get more powers (and the sorcerors themselves are cheaper, I understand). Plus the aura effects of the leaders are better (Exalted sorcerors I haven't heard about yet). They were already solid units, they are gently better.
Scarab Occult Terminators I'm much less certain about. They always flatter to deceive. But with more actual threats and greater support if they choose to deep strike aggressively they are still better than they were.
As for complaining because you bought nine boxes of Rubricae... well that's on you. I don't know what you expected.
I don't know why people think Rubrics haven't gotten better. The extension of spell range is very beneficial for buffing them, the Mutalith is beneficial, they can deep strike, their sorcerors get more powers (and the sorcerors themselves are cheaper, I understand). Plus the aura effects of the leaders are better (Exalted sorcerors I haven't heard about yet). They were already solid units, they are gently better.
Scarab Occult Terminators I'm much less certain about. They always flatter to deceive. But with more actual threats and greater support if they choose to deep strike aggressively they are still better than they were.
As for complaining because you bought nine boxes of Rubricae... well that's on you. I don't know what you expected.
I think people are complaining they can't play the army they are used to, and GW has really doubled down on the chaff instead of making TS themselves a better option.
Yes, Rubricae are slightly better and there's now new ways to buff them. It should be said that things like the Mutalith is a priority target that won't last in most games.
I have 60 Rubrics in a carrying case and would love to play them as a single force. The Codex doesn't make me want to pull them out and play them.
But you can play that way? It is better to play that way then it was under the Index. Between deep strike and the crystal you can be more mobile with that army anyway. Your buffs of those units (via spells, characters, mutalith) are better. Your psychic power options both for those units and affecting those units are stronger. Magnus works better with Thousand Sons than he did before(not that I would use him). There are many strategems that can be really good for Rubricae/SOT. Many of them are the CSM ones ported over - Veterans of the Long War, in particular. Yes, Tzaangor stuff got a few things that specifically benefit them, but they needed them as there was nothing for them.
From what I've seen there are a couple of annoying things in the codex, mind. Soulreaper being 1/10 for Rubricae is stupid, same with the equipment options for Exalteds. In fact the Exalteds - at the moment - appear to be the missed opportunity.
Why ever take rubrics? They are junk. 30x tzaangor bombs hits on 2+ from an aura, and get +1 to wound from the strategem. And they charge on an 8" off a deepstrike. Can you can warptime them. And you can deepstrike them from either strategems or relics. What a joke. hitting an 8" charge on 2d6 rerolling 1 dice from a CP is like 70-80%. And the other tzaangor bomb can warptime. And if you have CP, they fight twice for 2CP.
You just spent ALL of your CP and your shaman has to fly over. Let me know when you pull all that off simultaneously. Especially if Magnus gets dropped.
The reason for Rubrics hasn't changed. AP2 bolter, 2+/3+ with a path to 3++, and a sorcerer that got MORE useful.
But you can play that way? It is better to play that way then it was under the Index. Between deep strike and the crystal you can be more mobile with that army anyway. Your buffs of those units (via spells, characters, mutalith) are better. Your psychic power options both for those units and affecting those units are stronger. Magnus works better with Thousand Sons than he did before(not that I would use him). There are many strategems that can be really good for Rubricae/SOT. Many of them are the CSM ones ported over - Veterans of the Long War, in particular. Yes, Tzaangor stuff got a few things that specifically benefit them, but they needed them as there was nothing for them.
From what I've seen there are a couple of annoying things in the codex, mind. Soulreaper being 1/10 for Rubricae is stupid, same with the equipment options for Exalteds. In fact the Exalteds - at the moment - appear to be the missed opportunity.
So you'd rather show up, take an hour to setup a game and deploy, knowing you're playing an underpowered army and likely lose? And that sounds fun? I'm not saying every game needs to be waac, but if you can't really win, why play at all?
But you can play that way? It is better to play that way then it was under the Index. Between deep strike and the crystal you can be more mobile with that army anyway. Your buffs of those units (via spells, characters, mutalith) are better. Your psychic power options both for those units and affecting those units are stronger. Magnus works better with Thousand Sons than he did before(not that I would use him). There are many strategems that can be really good for Rubricae/SOT. Many of them are the CSM ones ported over - Veterans of the Long War, in particular. Yes, Tzaangor stuff got a few things that specifically benefit them, but they needed them as there was nothing for them.
From what I've seen there are a couple of annoying things in the codex, mind. Soulreaper being 1/10 for Rubricae is stupid, same with the equipment options for Exalteds. In fact the Exalteds - at the moment - appear to be the missed opportunity.
So you'd rather show up, take an hour to setup a game and deploy, knowing you're playing an underpowered army and likely lose? And that sounds fun? I'm not saying every game needs to be waac, but if you can't really win, why play at all?
I did not know you were a psyker and could foresee all your losses. Are all the matches you play 'kill points'?
If you answered no to these questions then you have a reason to play this army. You DON'T know you're going to lose until the dice starts to roll.
A mediocre army CAN win with a SKILLED pilot who goes for objectives.
As for the codex I am disappointed there wasn’t one stratagem for rubrics or terminators. Veterans of the long war is good and very useful but they could have easily written in something like
“4 cp a unit of terminators or rubrics by increase their damage from inferno bolters or combo bolters by 1.”
Just so you could look at something and delete it.
I won’t say it’s a mediocre army it’s just an army that can’t be just sorcerors, rubrics and terminators.
You can have a very strong army so long as you want to bring in allies or goats. Regular CSM and demons benefit us greatly.
Astmeister wrote: Will there be a tzaangor hq in case you want to play without thousand sons? I have purely desciples of tzeentch and want to play them in 40k.
No, and thank god for that. The Tzaangor Shaman is an elite choice, you have to run at least one real Thousand Sons unit if you want to play your goat herd.
Okay in this case i will play a demon prince with the tzaangors. I don't want to start TS for real and having an exalted TS sorcerer commanding a beast herd feels wrong.
But you can play that way? It is better to play that way then it was under the Index. Between deep strike and the crystal you can be more mobile with that army anyway. Your buffs of those units (via spells, characters, mutalith) are better. Your psychic power options both for those units and affecting those units are stronger. Magnus works better with Thousand Sons than he did before(not that I would use him). There are many strategems that can be really good for Rubricae/SOT. Many of them are the CSM ones ported over - Veterans of the Long War, in particular. Yes, Tzaangor stuff got a few things that specifically benefit them, but they needed them as there was nothing for them.
From what I've seen there are a couple of annoying things in the codex, mind. Soulreaper being 1/10 for Rubricae is stupid, same with the equipment options for Exalteds. In fact the Exalteds - at the moment - appear to be the missed opportunity.
So you'd rather show up, take an hour to setup a game and deploy, knowing you're playing an underpowered army and likely lose? And that sounds fun? I'm not saying every game needs to be waac, but if you can't really win, why play at all?
I don't think they are underpowered. So I don't agree with your premise.
It may well transpire that they are, but based on the evidence presented thus far, they are significantly stronger than before. The biggest impediment we had was a lack of mobility which has been somewhat alleviated through 9" warptime, the crystal and the deep strike stratagem. Note, I use Rubric heavy TS armies. The Rubric marines and Scarab Occult Terminators are probably the best kits in the 40k range. I have never used a Tzaangor. Until recently I haven't found a good scheme to paint those far-too detailed models.
I'm really not on the salt train here. One of the things that I always found lacking in Sons lists was Tzeentch character. I've always loved the figs and fluff for the Rubrics, but that was pretty much it for themed stuff other than demons. Personally, I need something more than "it's competitive" to see me through the collecting and painting of a whole army, so I'm very pleased with all the Tzaangor stuff (and the Mutalith being included).
But you can play that way? It is better to play that way then it was under the Index. Between deep strike and the crystal you can be more mobile with that army anyway. Your buffs of those units (via spells, characters, mutalith) are better. Your psychic power options both for those units and affecting those units are stronger. Magnus works better with Thousand Sons than he did before(not that I would use him). There are many strategems that can be really good for Rubricae/SOT. Many of them are the CSM ones ported over - Veterans of the Long War, in particular. Yes, Tzaangor stuff got a few things that specifically benefit them, but they needed them as there was nothing for them.
From what I've seen there are a couple of annoying things in the codex, mind. Soulreaper being 1/10 for Rubricae is stupid, same with the equipment options for Exalteds. In fact the Exalteds - at the moment - appear to be the missed opportunity.
So you'd rather show up, take an hour to setup a game and deploy, knowing you're playing an underpowered army and likely lose? And that sounds fun? I'm not saying every game needs to be waac, but if you can't really win, why play at all?
I don't think they are underpowered. So I don't agree with your premise.
It may well transpire that they are, but based on the evidence presented thus far, they are significantly stronger than before. The biggest impediment we had was a lack of mobility which has been somewhat alleviated through 9" warptime, the crystal and the deep strike stratagem. Note, I use Rubric heavy TS armies. The Rubric marines and Scarab Occult Terminators are probably the best kits in the 40k range. I have never used a Tzaangor. Until recently I haven't found a good scheme to paint those far-too detailed models.
+1 to this! have an exalt.
Overall the codex taken as a whole is seeming like a great book, I get the complaints of "you cant spam 60 rubrics with some sorcerers and have it work!" Which is true, I own 40 rubrics, however I regularly use about half, 20-30 give or take in most lists of 1500-2000. and I pull a decent win/loss ratio WITH THE INDEX.
So somehow looking at me and saying "oh yeah rubrics are so terri-bad" in the new book does not make logical sense when they received nothing but buffs, the sorcerer is free, gained a spell from change (admittedly 2 of them are useful on the regular, the rest will require bigger badder sorcerers to cast them) and access to one of the best strategems in the GAME, "Vets of the Long War" alone makes are already deadly guns incredibly dangerous to anything below toughness value 8.
Rubrics have the same issue custodes, grey knights, death watch, and all other "elite" armies have....they are a super elite list in an edition that does not benefit super elite lists.
Scarab Occult got a straight buff. the same unit is now 20 points cheaper. and has access to stratagem options, again that o'l workhorse VOTLW will do its job, however the Scarab Occult suffer one major issue; They are Terminators in a time when Terminators ACROSS THE BOARD are not particularly impressive, Ours will do fine and I think they will hold their weight well in most lists; Given that PPM they are about the same as any other tooled out terminator squad now? AND come with a free spell caster?...Yeah I am fairly pleased.
My primary and biggest annoyances in the book are a few design decisions that while they dont harm the army as a whole are incredibly annoying and foolish, but the book is still an 8 outta 10 ya know? its still a pretty great book overall.
Ate there alternate color schemes in the book? I want to do a Rogue cabal that is pro mutation and spawn. I would assume GW woukd list few examples to fill out the fluff pages.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Ate there alternate color schemes in the book? I want to do a Rogue cabal that is pro mutation and spawn. I would assume GW woukd list few examples to fill out the fluff pages.
Ahriman21 wrote: Overall the codex taken as a whole is seeming like a great book, I get the complaints of "you cant spam 60 rubrics with some sorcerers and have it work!" Which is true, I own 40 rubrics, however I regularly use about half, 20-30 give or take in most lists of 1500-2000. and I pull a decent win/loss ratio WITH THE INDEX.
You misunderstand the complaints.
Its not that you can't spam rubrics-its that you HAVE to take gors, because everything in the codex is geared directly to support them.
Not taking gors in just consciously weakening your list.
Ahriman21 wrote: So somehow looking at me and saying "oh yeah rubrics are so terri-bad" in the new book does not make logical sense when they received nothing but buffs, the sorcerer is free, gained a spell from change (admittedly 2 of them are useful on the regular, the rest will require bigger badder sorcerers to cast them) and access to one of the best strategems in the GAME, "Vets of the Long War" alone makes are already deadly guns incredibly dangerous to anything below toughness value 8.
Rubrics aint bad, they are even rather good. despite the gun in 10 weirdness (that i hope is a copypasta error and gets FAQed)
But they are one-dimensional. and the codex didn't do enough to elevate that.
Few stratagems matter to them, one that is supposedly unique to them is horrible enough to never be worth it, and even the spells-most spells they have are NOT spells you want your rubrics to cast.
Ahriman21 wrote: Scarab Occult got a straight buff. the same unit is now 20 points cheaper. and has access to stratagem options, again that o'l workhorse VOTLW will do its job, however the Scarab Occult suffer one major issue; They are Terminators in a time when Terminators ACROSS THE BOARD are not particularly impressive, Ours will do fine and I think they will hold their weight well in most lists; Given that PPM they are about the same as any other tooled out terminator squad now? AND come with a free spell caster?...Yeah I am fairly pleased.
Scarab got buffed, yes. but not enough. the base cost per model should have been a few points lower as well.
Yay, they got VotLW. so does regular termies, who has combis.
Getting the same stratagem everyone else in your superfaction has is not even the bare minimum.
Ahriman21 wrote: My primary and biggest annoyances in the book are a few design decisions that while they dont harm the army as a whole are incredibly annoying and foolish, but the book is still an 8 outta 10 ya know? its still a pretty great book overall.
No, they don't HARM the army.
But other than VotLW (who i could get via codex CSM), minor price reduction that isn't enough to make the exalted or SoT actually GOOD, the helmet relic and prince buff, it doesn't do anything to HELP my army either over what we had in CA (and i guess warlord traits? though I could get CSM traits for my prince as well)
The gors and mutalit may be in the codex, but they are not my army. I don't care about them and won't get them no matter how good they are (and they are) because they are not the army I signed up for back in 7th.
The codex does not do the very minimal effort needed to make the "true rubric" army a viable possibilit, let alone competitive one. you dont have any FA except mutants, the stratagems that supposdly support dusties either help even more the gors, or are outright bad (the sexploding asp sorcerer one, and the infero bolt upgrade one-both are really bad and not worth even 1 cp), the tactic actually doesn't do anything to any non-psyker unit, and I don't think anyone else in the game has tactic that narrow (heck, TS helbrutes not being psykers is a bit disappointing but TS helbrutes not getting ANYTHING over "chaos soup" helbrute is just flawed)
Its not a good codex. its a 6/10, MAYBE.
Not because its weak, as its rather strong.
But because it does nothing at all, hardly even making a pretense, at supporting the army that was, over giving all attention to the new goat overlords.
I'm amused at people complaining about "not my army" stuff. Did you see the DG codex versus what the DG army list in traitor legions was? That's what an actual change looks like, adding a couple new units and being best used as a horde army in an edition where literally every army is best off using their hordes isn't.
Honestly, it's not even an actual change in good options, rubric heavy in 7th was garbage. Gors, cultists, or brimstones with psychic HQs was what I saw every tson player who wanted to win using, maybe with scarab occult but I didn't even see that many of them.
It is a good codex by all appearances. It's both lore friendly and better balanced than most marine codices so far as we have seen. Anyone upset by this codex is just being unreasonable.
Ahriman21 wrote: Overall the codex taken as a whole is seeming like a great book, I get the complaints of "you cant spam 60 rubrics with some sorcerers and have it work!" Which is true, I own 40 rubrics, however I regularly use about half, 20-30 give or take in most lists of 1500-2000. and I pull a decent win/loss ratio WITH THE INDEX.
You misunderstand the complaints.
Its not that you can't spam rubrics-its that you HAVE to take gors, because everything in the codex is geared directly to support them.
Not taking gors in just consciously weakening your list.
Ahriman21 wrote: So somehow looking at me and saying "oh yeah rubrics are so terri-bad" in the new book does not make logical sense when they received nothing but buffs, the sorcerer is free, gained a spell from change (admittedly 2 of them are useful on the regular, the rest will require bigger badder sorcerers to cast them) and access to one of the best strategems in the GAME, "Vets of the Long War" alone makes are already deadly guns incredibly dangerous to anything below toughness value 8.
Rubrics aint bad, they are even rather good. despite the gun in 10 weirdness (that i hope is a copypasta error and gets FAQed)
But they are one-dimensional. and the codex didn't do enough to elevate that.
Few stratagems matter to them, one that is supposedly unique to them is horrible enough to never be worth it, and even the spells-most spells they have are NOT spells you want your rubrics to cast.
Ahriman21 wrote: Scarab Occult got a straight buff. the same unit is now 20 points cheaper. and has access to stratagem options, again that o'l workhorse VOTLW will do its job, however the Scarab Occult suffer one major issue; They are Terminators in a time when Terminators ACROSS THE BOARD are not particularly impressive, Ours will do fine and I think they will hold their weight well in most lists; Given that PPM they are about the same as any other tooled out terminator squad now? AND come with a free spell caster?...Yeah I am fairly pleased.
Scarab got buffed, yes. but not enough. the base cost per model should have been a few points lower as well.
Yay, they got VotLW. so does regular termies, who has combis.
Getting the same stratagem everyone else in your superfaction has is not even the bare minimum.
Ahriman21 wrote: My primary and biggest annoyances in the book are a few design decisions that while they dont harm the army as a whole are incredibly annoying and foolish, but the book is still an 8 outta 10 ya know? its still a pretty great book overall.
No, they don't HARM the army.
But other than VotLW (who i could get via codex CSM), minor price reduction that isn't enough to make the exalted or SoT actually GOOD, the helmet relic and prince buff, it doesn't do anything to HELP my army either over what we had in CA (and i guess warlord traits? though I could get CSM traits for my prince as well)
The gors and mutalit may be in the codex, but they are not my army. I don't care about them and won't get them no matter how good they are (and they are) because they are not the army I signed up for back in 7th.
The codex does not do the very minimal effort needed to make the "true rubric" army a viable possibilit, let alone competitive one. you dont have any FA except mutants, the stratagems that supposdly support dusties either help even more the gors, or are outright bad (the sexploding asp sorcerer one, and the infero bolt upgrade one-both are really bad and not worth even 1 cp), the tactic actually doesn't do anything to any non-psyker unit, and I don't think anyone else in the game has tactic that narrow (heck, TS helbrutes not being psykers is a bit disappointing but TS helbrutes not getting ANYTHING over "chaos soup" helbrute is just flawed)
Its not a good codex. its a 6/10, MAYBE.
Not because its weak, as its rather strong.
But because it does nothing at all, hardly even making a pretense, at supporting the army that was, over giving all attention to the new goat overlords.
Good post even if I disagree on several points.
One thing i'll point out is that you HAD to take Tzaangors or Cultists before this book, too. You don't run non-melee elites that fold in combat without something to guard them. The only difference now is that the Tzaangors aren't also one dimensional.
nintura wrote: Because, and again, it is not Thousand Sons supported by Gors. It's Gors supported by Thousand Sons. And really, you dont even need them.
Buying 30 gors for 10 rubrics (same cost) doesn't make it gors supported by rubrics. IG armies are not "conscripts supported by tanks". It's a totally pointless distinction.
Played against deathguard the other day without a single plague marine in the list, it wasn’t because pm’s are “bad” they just aren’t an optimal choice in a dg list.
Unfortunately the same can be said of rubrics as tzangor units supported by sorcerers and daemons will be the optimal list.
I understand both sides of the argument but as a tzeentch player who has loved the thousand sons for 20 something years it is sad that my rubrics won’t see the play that I and many others hoped for!
Will I still buy the book and a load of tzangor models? Yes but a small part of me will still regret that it’s not a full tsons Army
Guyver 3 wrote: Played against deathguard the other day without a single plague marine in the list, it wasn’t because pm’s are “bad” they just aren’t an optimal choice in a dg list.
Unfortunately the same can be said of rubrics as tzangor units supported by sorcerers and daemons will be the optimal list.
I understand both sides of the argument but as a tzeentch player who has loved the thousand sons for 20 something years it is sad that my rubrics won’t see the play that I and many others hoped for!
Will I still buy the book and a load of tzangor models? Yes but a small part of me will still regret that it’s not a full tsons Army
Saying what is and isn't an optimal list before the codex is even out is a bit much.
Deep striking Tzaangor with horns, plus the various other potential boosts is nice. But at the end of the day your opponent will expect that and adjust accordingly(or are not a smart player). On the internet - understandably given the theoretical nature - people tend to focus on the combos. These can be really good but they do't factor in the movement and positioning side of the game.
Incidentally the Tzaangor improvements make Rubricae better. Shoving a big mob in their face turn one will keep the enemy guns occupied. The Tzaangor were probably necessary for boots of the ground under the index too if you wanted to be more efficient, but now they can do the old job of bubblewrapping and board control as well as actually threaten the enemy, alleviating hte pressure on your other more elite units.
As I say, in practice it could transpire that the Rubricae are rubbish. But they have objectively improved upon the index.
Saying what is and isn't an optimal list before the codex is even out is a bit much.
....
As I say, in practice it could transpire that the Rubricae are rubbish. But they have objectively improved upon the index.
Ya. Right now most Rubric spammers, myself included, are salty.
I think it's mostly from being able to run a brigade army of goats, mutaliths, and daemon princes with no marines at all and how Thousand Sons will rarely field any Thousand Sons based on how things look.
The one thing I think most people are mad about (Aside from the Index Soulcannon Copy/Paste ) is there is no Strat that says "Pay CP: Rubric Marines do something better". We have Tzaangors attack again at the end of combat (Which is the only Tzaangor specific strat), several strats that help melee (Vengence for Prospero and Boons), and several Turn your Sorcerers into not sorcerers. A 1 or 2 CP Rubric shooting strat would have probably shut us up, to be honest.
At the end of the day, the people who want to win will run Magnus, Lord of Goats, the people who want to have a chance will add in some Tzaangor, and the neurotic fluffydustybois will just run 2000 of Rubric marines and force themselves to have fun. It's what happened in 7th and it will probably be what happens now.
TLDR: Rubric Spammers feel like GW Spit in their face. Time will tell if they did, but it still feels bad now, so we're ranting and venting.
nintura wrote: Because, and again, it is not Thousand Sons supported by Gors. It's Gors supported by Thousand Sons. And really, you dont even need them.
So the exact same problem literally every flavor of SM has been running into?
An optimal list this edition isn't heavily using elite infantry, it doesn't matter the army. If you didn't have gors, rubrics would be getting overshadowed by cultist, or brimstones.
Be glad you aren't custodes or vanilla SM, where your optimal build involves at least a battalion of guardsmen.
nintura wrote: Because, and again, it is not Thousand Sons supported by Gors. It's Gors supported by Thousand Sons. And really, you dont even need them.
Buying 30 gors for 10 rubrics (same cost) doesn't make it gors supported by rubrics. IG armies are not "conscripts supported by tanks". It's a totally pointless distinction.
Saying what is and isn't an optimal list before the codex is even out is a bit much.
....
As I say, in practice it could transpire that the Rubricae are rubbish. But they have objectively improved upon the index.
Ya. Right now most Rubric spammers, myself included, are salty.
I think it's mostly from being able to run a brigade army of goats, mutaliths, and daemon princes with no marines at all and how Thousand Sons will rarely field any Thousand Sons based on how things look.
The one thing I think most people are mad about (Aside from the Index Soulcannon Copy/Paste ) is there is no Strat that says "Pay CP: Rubric Marines do something better". We have Tzaangors attack again at the end of combat (Which is the only Tzaangor specific strat), several strats that help melee (Vengence for Prospero and Boons), and several Turn your Sorcerers into not sorcerers. A 1 or 2 CP Rubric shooting strat would have probably shut us up, to be honest.
At the end of the day, the people who want to win will run Magnus, Lord of Goats, the people who want to have a chance will add in some Tzaangor, and the neurotic fluffydustybois will just run 2000 of Rubric marines and force themselves to have fun. It's what happened in 7th and it will probably be what happens now.
TLDR: Rubric Spammers feel like GW Spit in their face. Time will tell if they did, but it still feels bad now, so we're ranting and venting.
Couldn’t have said it better!
People saying you shouldn’t feel the way you do but not understanding or caring why you feel that way as if anyone on this forum “should” feel in any way
nintura wrote: Interesting note on the fluff in the codex. The Yvrainne raises some of the Rubrics back to their human forms.
That happened in the Fracture of Biel-Tan, Yvraine brought 3 of them back to flesh and blood then promptly dumped them out the webway into the Warp to get Ahriman to follow after them.
People saying you shouldn’t feel the way you do but not understanding or caring why you feel that way as if anyone on this forum “should” feel in any way
If you do nothing but complain despite getting one of the best fleshed out codices this edition and an expanded army list with new units, you should expect people to mock you at best.
nintura wrote: Interesting note on the fluff in the codex. The Yvrainne raises some of the Rubrics back to their human forms.
That happened in the Fracture of Biel-Tan, Yvraine brought 3 of them back to flesh and blood then promptly dumped them out the webway into the Warp to get Ahriman to follow after them.
One of the best bits, you can feel how upset Ahriman was to see them torn away so suddenly.
nintura wrote: Because, and again, it is not Thousand Sons supported by Gors. It's Gors supported by Thousand Sons. And really, you dont even need them.
So the exact same problem literally every flavor of SM has been running into?
An optimal list this edition isn't heavily using elite infantry, it doesn't matter the army. If you didn't have gors, rubrics would be getting overshadowed by cultist, or brimstones.
Be glad you aren't custodes or vanilla SM, where your optimal build involves at least a battalion of guardsmen.
LMAO literally admit its a problem.
Then say shut up and deal.
How about no.
How about we figure out how to fix this problem rather then just accept it.
How about we figure out how to fix this problem rather then just accept it.
Alright, the fix is changing the cover and morale rules, plus the way detachments and CP work. Rubrics will also need a different unique ability as the situational 2+ is part of the issue with cover and why all 3+ units pay such a premium. In other words, it isn't getting fixed this edition.
Again though, the tsons still have one of the best codices we've seen so far, even if one whole unit isn't doing that great under this edition. It's a non issue basically, and crying constantly in every thread about that one tiny flaw is absurdly annoying. I keep popping in for actual leaks and its nothing but constant crying from spoiled children who didn't get things absolutely perfect.
I do kind of wish that both the death guard and 1ksons codices were more like the maggotkin or disciples battletomes from AOS in which the marine legion was 1/3 of the book but by restricting yourself to the legion you'd get better boons. Another 3rd could be the daemons and the final 3rd would be the things like gors and tzeentch aligned marines that weren't rubric.
That said I'm fine with what we're getting. Sure I would have liked a 40k analogue for my Osiron or the sorcerer lord in terminator armor but I wasn't expecting it really. I might start running the Osiron as a daemon prince or something.
Admittedly the crowd I've been playing 8th with isn't the most cutthroat of metas but my rubrics have been holding their own and I'll keep bringing plenty of them.
I run my 1ksons more as a legion force that got lost in the warp so I'll probably avoid the crazier daemon engines or tzaangors but it might also be fun to run a gor herd led by a converted daemon prince to look like a large tzaangor. Might use the Malifaux Carrion Emissary as a base...hmmm bad ideas forming. And that alt hungering darkness would make a great victim of the flesh change.
nintura wrote: Because, and again, it is not Thousand Sons supported by Gors. It's Gors supported by Thousand Sons. And really, you dont even need them.
Buying 30 gors for 10 rubrics (same cost) doesn't make it gors supported by rubrics. IG armies are not "conscripts supported by tanks". It's a totally pointless distinction.
Having 6 Gor units to every 1 Rubricae unit does.
If you're taking 6 gor units then you're opting for enlightened bows over inferno bolters.
18 bows and a shaman is near 400 points.
MEQ - 10.0W
GEQ - 14.6W
If we got the soulreaper in 5 back - 7 w/ SR, 6 w/ SR, and exalted comes in under 400
MEQ - 6.6W
GEQ - 10.0W
Ugg, terrible! Yet...rapid fire..
MEQ - 9.2W
GEQ - 15.4W
That's a lot closer (bearing in mind these numbers totally omit the asp sorcerer's gun), but then being in rapid fire range takes time and bears risk, but then I have 2+/3+,4++/5++ and three casters to your one.
Why if someone were to shoot four newly point reduced autocannons at them...
Tzaangors - 2.4 dead (40points)
Rubrics - 1.7 dead (35 points)
Take Rubrics to hold objectives. Park a unit of at least 10 with a healthy number of warpflamers on an objective and watch them melt any other Objective Secured units that try to contest it (other than maybe Leman Russ tanks in a Guard army).
nintura wrote: Because, and again, it is not Thousand Sons supported by Gors. It's Gors supported by Thousand Sons. And really, you dont even need them.
Buying 30 gors for 10 rubrics (same cost) doesn't make it gors supported by rubrics. IG armies are not "conscripts supported by tanks". It's a totally pointless distinction.
Having 6 Gor units to every 1 Rubricae unit does.
If you're taking 6 gor units then you're opting for enlightened bows over inferno bolters.
18 bows and a shaman is near 400 points.
MEQ - 10.0W
GEQ - 14.6W
If we got the soulreaper in 5 back - 7 w/ SR, 6 w/ SR, and exalted comes in under 400
MEQ - 6.6W
GEQ - 10.0W
Ugg, terrible! Yet...rapid fire..
MEQ - 9.2W
GEQ - 15.4W
That's a lot closer (bearing in mind these numbers totally omit the asp sorcerer's gun), but then being in rapid fire range takes time and bears risk, but then I have 2+/3+,4++/5++ and three casters to your one.
Why if someone were to shoot four newly point reduced autocannons at them...
Tzaangors - 2.4 dead (40points)
Rubrics - 1.7 dead (35 points)
And 10 RF Storm Bolters...
Tzaangors - 4.5 dead
Rubrics - 2.2 dead
So in most situations the gors do more damage(and we aren't even considering high toughness targets, which the gors will crush the rubicae), and are so much more mobile that to even compare them would be like dividing by zero. I don't know what games most people play, but we tend to play ITC matches here and mobility crushes. The downside is they are somewhat more fragile. Funny enough, the gors even deny their opponent to rapid fire against them due to range differences...so I don't even know if I'd call them more fragile.
And the rubrics require a FAQ for the comparison to even happen.
nintura wrote: Because, and again, it is not Thousand Sons supported by Gors. It's Gors supported by Thousand Sons. And really, you dont even need them.
Buying 30 gors for 10 rubrics (same cost) doesn't make it gors supported by rubrics. IG armies are not "conscripts supported by tanks". It's a totally pointless distinction.
Uhhhh......... what? Conscripts and Tanks are IG. It's what they are known for. Your argument is like me saying taking Tactical Marines with a couple Predator tanks does not make it a Marine army supported by Tanks....
Now, if you had said 10 marines and 30 guard, then yes, It's a guard army supported by marines.
So in most situations the gors do more damage(and we aren't even considering high toughness targets, which the gors will crush the rubicae), and are so much more mobile that to even compare them would be like dividing by zero. I don't know what games most people play, but we tend to play ITC matches here and mobility crushes. The downside is they are somewhat more fragile. Funny enough, the gors even deny their opponent to rapid fire against them due to range differences...so I don't even know if I'd call them more fragile.
And the rubrics require a FAQ for the comparison to even happen.
All hail the beaked goat overlords!
Yep they are very mobile and the auto-wounds are fantastic on tanks. 8 wounds to T7 3+. Rubrics need VotLW to approach that and even then won't make it unless in RF range. But I don't use Rubrics to hunt tanks unless I need to pull off a handful of wounds. More importantly the rubrics will always be harder to kill - especially in cover. Enlightened will never have cover and will be the biggest target, because one loss from morale = 2 wounds.
Brian888 wrote: Take Rubrics to hold objectives. Park a unit of at least 10 with a healthy number of warpflamers on an objective and watch them melt any other Objective Secured units that try to contest it (other than maybe Leman Russ tanks in a Guard army).
Brian888 wrote: Take Rubrics to hold objectives. Park a unit of at least 10 with a healthy number of warpflamers on an objective and watch them melt any other Objective Secured units that try to contest it (other than maybe Leman Russ tanks in a Guard army).
250 point objective holders?
That are very hard to shift and incredibly lethal at short-range? Sure.
Arachnofiend wrote: Are warpflamer rubrics even that hard to shift? Is a single warpflamer rubric more durable than 8 infantrymen?
Depends, what are the 8 infantry men armed with? Against lasguns, certainly. I ran it through mathhammer, and 16 lasgun shots on average will not kill a model with the rubric's stat line. 16 boltgun shots on average won't kill it either. 16 gauss / bolt rifle shots on average might though.
Brian888 wrote: Take Rubrics to hold objectives. Park a unit of at least 10 with a healthy number of warpflamers on an objective and watch them melt any other Objective Secured units that try to contest it (other than maybe Leman Russ tanks in a Guard army).
250 point objective holders?
That are very hard to shift and incredibly lethal at short-range? Sure.
True true or just put 20 Alpha legion cultists for 1/3 the points
Arachnofiend wrote: Are warpflamer rubrics even that hard to shift? Is a single warpflamer rubric more durable than 8 infantrymen?
Depends, what are the 8 infantry men armed with? Against lasguns, certainly. I ran it through mathhammer, and 16 lasgun shots on average will not kill a model with the rubric's stat line.
16 boltgun shots on average won't kill it either.
16 gauss / bolt rifle shots on average might though.
...Damn, this math makes me feel REALLY unlucky. My Rubrics drop all over the place to weight of fire. :(
This is the good unit vs optimal unit argument again
Rubrics May be a good unit but they are not optimal. The argument that they will shrug off most low st low ap shots is redundant as most opponents bring anti elite guns as well as anti tank both of which will kill rubrics easily.
Thinking about it, I wonder if Enlightened pair better with Rubricae/Scarab Occult than with Tzaangors. The enemy has to run out of 2 damage shots eventually, right?
Arachnofiend wrote: Are warpflamer rubrics even that hard to shift? Is a single warpflamer rubric more durable than 8 infantrymen?
Depends, what are the 8 infantry men armed with? Against lasguns, certainly. I ran it through mathhammer, and 16 lasgun shots on average will not kill a model with the rubric's stat line.
16 boltgun shots on average won't kill it either.
16 gauss / bolt rifle shots on average might though.
...Damn, this math makes me feel REALLY unlucky. My Rubrics drop all over the place to weight of fire. :(
Yeah, that's dice for you. Damned things never obey the averages I find that cognitive bias also plays a role, as the brain naturally only remembers rare unfavorable outcomes whilst "forgetting" about more common positive outcomes. You can save 1000 wounds, but you will remember that one failure as it doesn't follow the usual pattern and has a downside. Its part of a survival mechanism, I believe.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arachnofiend wrote: Thinking about it, I wonder if Enlightened pair better with Rubricae/Scarab Occult than with Tzaangors. The enemy has to run out of 2 damage shots eventually, right?
Probably. Forcing your opponent to split target priorities is always a good decision.
Guyver 3 wrote: This is the good unit vs optimal unit argument again
Rubrics May be a good unit but they are not optimal. The argument that they will shrug off most low st low ap shots is redundant as most opponents bring anti elite guns as well as anti tank both of which will kill rubrics easily.
That depends on how you measure effectiveness. If your only measure is raw damage output, sure. Just don't be mad if either enlightened get a hike or rubrics get a drop in the future and you built your whole list around a single kit.
Personally, i'd love to play an all 1ksons army, but I'm not too disappointed because I never had the expectation that it'd be possible. I don't really expect ANY all power armor force to be viable this edition. The large scale changes to AP and bolters killed that awhile back (went from old rules ap5 meant standard bolter ignored 5+. Now they do not. Bolters should have been ap-1. If they were, stuff like tacticals and vanilla csm would be useful.)
Rubrics solve this problem to some extent with their ap-2. But their speed and vulnerability to melee just leaves them too inflexible compared to other equivalent units. For example, compare Scarabs with regular chaos terminators with Combi-plasma. The combi-plasma terms cost a little bit more, but their performance is staggeringly better, and they can effectively fight literally anything. And they aren't stuck with only powerswords. Having axes and fists in the unit is a huge deal for standing up in melee.
What I really would have liked to see is a rule or strat to let rubrics and scarabs fall back and still shoot. This would have let them be a bit less vulnerable to melee without making them offensively powerful as melee. Instead, we have to play a ton of tzaangors to screen or bail them out.
The other cult marines are much more well rounded as units then Rubrics now, even with the psychic powers. Noise marines have enough shots to kill things with weight of fire, and then still have 2 attacks and shoot on death to punish close combat units. Berzerkers are best in class for melee. Plague marines have more survivability than Rubrics, more weapon options, and much better army and strat synergy. But while the other cult troops are all nasty in their own right, there are very few armies that can be built around them due to overall problems with MeQ this edition (except alpha legion berzerkers maybe, but even those lists are funky.) It's that whole good vs optimal thing another poster mentioned.
In other words, what I'm saying is that power armor and marines just ain't what they used to be, and that's the real problem with a pure 1ksons army.
But to move the discussion along, what do people see as possibilities for Soup lists? Thousand Sons daemon princes seem very promising. There's also going to be great overlap with daemons, and Mutaliths can buff any Tzeentch unit. Some combination of Daemons, 1ksons HQs and Tzaangores, and tzeentch CSM could get interesting. Exalted Flamers also worth a mention.
The inferno bolts stratagem also interests me. It doesn't seem like there's much in the 1ksons book that it could be used on to great effect, as there just aren't a whole lot of bolter units. Are there any forge world units that can spam a lot of bolters that we could give the thousand sons keyword to?
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: But to move the discussion along, what do people see as possibilities for Soup lists? Thousand Sons daemon princes seem very promising. There's also going to be great overlap with daemons, and Mutaliths can buff any Tzeentch unit. Some combination of Daemons, 1ksons HQs and Tzaangores, and tzeentch CSM could get interesting. Exalted Flamers also worth a mention.
The inferno bolts stratagem also interests me. It doesn't seem like there's much in the 1ksons book that it could be used on to great effect, as there just aren't a whole lot of bolter units. Are there any forge world units that can spam a lot of bolters that we could give the thousand sons keyword to?
Possibly with Chaos Contemptors. Could go PF/TLHB and then inferno it and fire-frenzy. The wording right now is a single one, but if it was all then that would be great with pred with 2 HBs and a combi on top.
Aside from that, expect Sorcs, goats and Mutas in a battalion with a second detachment of stuff with Daemon of Tzeentch to use strats on.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: But to move the discussion along, what do people see as possibilities for Soup lists? Thousand Sons daemon princes seem very promising. There's also going to be great overlap with daemons, and Mutaliths can buff any Tzeentch unit. Some combination of Daemons, 1ksons HQs and Tzaangores, and tzeentch CSM could get interesting. Exalted Flamers also worth a mention.
The inferno bolts stratagem also interests me. It doesn't seem like there's much in the 1ksons book that it could be used on to great effect, as there just aren't a whole lot of bolter units. Are there any forge world units that can spam a lot of bolters that we could give the thousand sons keyword to?
As far as i can tell, yes. It's good in theory, but in practice you'd only use it on a twin heavy bolter. Otherwise it seems like a waste. 1 CP on one gun doesn't seem worth it unless you have alot of armor you're against. If it was multiple guns then it would open up the option to use it on Dakka Preds but as is, it cost 3 CP, which I doubt you can spare when one is already probably going to the extra relic.
Best I can see is using it one a Contemptor or Land Raider's HB for the extra AP. brings it up to 6shots of 5-3-1. Other than that I can't see it being worth the CP.
Another thought I had is taking a bastion and putting a disk sorc/exalted on top as the WL and having them Coruscating Beam clumped troops from his lofty vantage point.
Yeah, my immediate thought was a Defiler (mostly because I want one anyway for a heavy support choice, I think post-CA they might actually be better than maulers) but a land raider would also work. Given that the "reaper" autocannon is terribad ("reaper" here is an adjective that means "does half the damage" apparently) the souped-up HB is actually the best weapon option.
Land Raider would also be solid. honestly, if you're going the pure rubric route without magnus, you're probably going to want one as the optimal target for Prescience and Glamor, unless you're doing the deep striking 20 rubric shtick. 10x SOTs probably don't need/want glamor as much as you'll be warptiming them into combat.
If you're going to do it at all, you'll do it on a helbrute, I think. Fire Frenzy makes the helbrute's twin heavy bolter the highest value target for the stratagem.
So... the upgrade pack for the tzaangors is a little crazy. 5 guns & swords for $12.50? The box of 10 models is only $45, and comes with all the arms included with the fantasy kit (which is $40).
So the 40k weapons go from a $5 extra to a $25 extra.
So, I understand a lot of the complaints here, but I'm still super excited. But I was trying to think of a list that keeps a balance between actual Thousand Sons and their beast people
I know we don't know points but maybe something like:
Battalion- TS Daemon Prince
Exalted Sorc on disc
10 Rubricae
10 Rubricae
20 Tzaangors
Mutalith
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: The inferno bolts stratagem also interests me. It doesn't seem like there's much in the 1ksons book that it could be used on to great effect, as there just aren't a whole lot of bolter units. Are there any forge world units that can spam a lot of bolters that we could give the thousand sons keyword to?
Can the Chaos Fire Raptor Asault Gunship be used with 1K Sons? I hope so, it is why I got one. ;-)
It has one Heavy10 Twin Avenger Bolt Cannon, and two Heavy12 Quad Heavy Bolt Guns.
Do we know if there will be anything added to the current AoS Tzaangor Enlightened and Tzaangor Shaman kits other than auto pistol/chainsword arms when they get turned into "40k versions" of the same kit?
Edit: Or do GW expect people to buy the AoS-kits and then some laughably expensive autopistol/ccw sprues on top? Old GW is back boys.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: But to move the discussion along, what do people see as possibilities for Soup lists? Thousand Sons daemon princes seem very promising. There's also going to be great overlap with daemons, and Mutaliths can buff any Tzeentch unit. Some combination of Daemons, 1ksons HQs and Tzaangores, and tzeentch CSM could get interesting. Exalted Flamers also worth a mention.
The inferno bolts stratagem also interests me. It doesn't seem like there's much in the 1ksons book that it could be used on to great effect, as there just aren't a whole lot of bolter units. Are there any forge world units that can spam a lot of bolters that we could give the thousand sons keyword to?
I think skyfires could be very helpful in a tzneetch demon list, some longer range shooting that can realistically target anything, with some demon synergy.
Depending on how the vortex beast is worded it could be useful across a lot of armies.
Do we know if generic tson daemon princes are getting the bonus to invulnerable saves than ones from the daemon codex do? DG daemon princes got upgraded to match so I wasn't sure.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, my immediate thought was a Defiler (mostly because I want one anyway for a heavy support choice, I think post-CA they might actually be better than maulers) but a land raider would also work. Given that the "reaper" autocannon is terribad ("reaper" here is an adjective that means "does half the damage" apparently) the souped-up HB is actually the best weapon option.
Land Raider would also be solid. honestly, if you're going the pure rubric route without magnus, you're probably going to want one as the optimal target for Prescience and Glamor, unless you're doing the deep striking 20 rubric shtick. 10x SOTs probably don't need/want glamor as much as you'll be warptiming them into combat.
Defiler is definitly the way to go. Daemon Forge + Prescience + Temporal Manipulation (TM), means even if you move you still have a 75% hit ratio, you wound at a 75%. TM combined with natural regen to average 3 wounds healed per turn, even if you take 10 wounds in a single turn you can pop smoke heal and Glamor for -2 to shooting attacks. You can get 2 turns of healing, increaseing your wounds by 6 on average 4 minimum. Armerment is a Battle Cannon that wounds LR on 2s, a HB that is wounding LR on 3s with 6 shots, -2 ap on both.
Cast Diabolical Strength on him, and hes almost able to kill 2 LR in a single turn between shooting and melee.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: The inferno bolts stratagem also interests me. It doesn't seem like there's much in the 1ksons book that it could be used on to great effect, as there just aren't a whole lot of bolter units. Are there any forge world units that can spam a lot of bolters that we could give the thousand sons keyword to?
Can the Chaos Fire Raptor Asault Gunship be used with 1K Sons? I hope so, it is why I got one. ;-)
It has one Heavy10 Twin Avenger Bolt Cannon, and two Heavy12 Quad Heavy Bolt Guns.
MinscS2 wrote: Do we know if there will be anything added to the current AoS Tzaangor Enlightened and Tzaangor Shaman kits other than auto pistol/chainsword arms when they get turned into "40k versions" of the same kit?
Edit: Or do GW expect people to buy the AoS-kits and then some laughably expensive autopistol/ccw sprues on top? Old GW is back boys.
I'm not really sure why you'd go for the chainsword option. They also look bad on all Tzaangor.
People claiming rubrics are useless and tzaangors are replacing them are in for a few horrible matches lol. My Catachan army won't even need to flex it's muscles tol dust some garbage tzaangors off the table in a turn. 330 points worth of hellhounds will flat murder them, the flying ones too. Meanwhile rubrics would get their full 3+ saves. Your going to need a healthy mix of units to take on a variety of opponents.
Such strange arguments. Had Tzaangors been objectively worse then rubrics people would have pointed out that they were pointless for the army, and that half the book was dead weight. Instead the already gorgeous line doubles in size and adds actually competitively viable options to boot and somehow people are mad? Unbelievable.
Oh and half the keyboard generals in here are the same type of people that said wraith knights were garbage when they were released. Sort of like how people say space wolves, and blood angels are not top tier worthy armies yet 3 of the top 8 slots at the LVO are in fact those armies.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: The inferno bolts stratagem also interests me. It doesn't seem like there's much in the 1ksons book that it could be used on to great effect, as there just aren't a whole lot of bolter units. Are there any forge world units that can spam a lot of bolters that we could give the thousand sons keyword to?
Can the Chaos Fire Raptor Asault Gunship be used with 1K Sons? I hope so, it is why I got one. ;-)
It has one Heavy10 Twin Avenger Bolt Cannon, and two Heavy12 Quad Heavy Bolt Guns.
Red Corsair wrote: People claiming rubrics are useless and tzaangors are replacing them are in for a few horrible matches lol. My Catachan army won't even need to flex it's muscles tol dust some garbage tzaangors off the table in a turn. 330 points worth of hellhounds will flat murder them, the flying ones too. Meanwhile rubrics would get their full 3+ saves. Your going to need a healthy mix of units to take on a variety of opponents.
Such strange arguments. Had Tzaangors been objectively worse then rubrics people would have pointed out that they were pointless for the army, and that half the book was dead weight. Instead the already gorgeous line doubles in size and adds actually competitively viable options to boot and somehow people are mad? Unbelievable.
Oh and half the keyboard generals in here are the same type of people that said wraith knights were garbage when they were released. Sort of like how people say space wolves, and blood angels are not top tier worthy armies yet 3 of the top 8 slots at the LVO are in fact those armies.
On the contrary... for the original release the Tzaangor kit was warmly received because most people acknowledged that Thousand Sons needed a throw away meat shield unit and were pleased with Tzaangors even though Cultists would have done just fine. The issue is the Thousand Sons book went from an honest attempt to expand the line to little more than a cash grab in the span of a year. No effort was made to expand the Thousand Sons themselves or make them the star of the book.
Red Corsair wrote: People claiming rubrics are useless and tzaangors are replacing them are in for a few horrible matches lol. My Catachan army won't even need to flex it's muscles tol dust some garbage tzaangors off the table in a turn. 330 points worth of hellhounds will flat murder them, the flying ones too. Meanwhile rubrics would get their full 3+ saves. Your going to need a healthy mix of units to take on a variety of opponents.
Such strange arguments. Had Tzaangors been objectively worse then rubrics people would have pointed out that they were pointless for the army, and that half the book was dead weight. Instead the already gorgeous line doubles in size and adds actually competitively viable options to boot and somehow people are mad? Unbelievable.
Oh and half the keyboard generals in here are the same type of people that said wraith knights were garbage when they were released. Sort of like how people say space wolves, and blood angels are not top tier worthy armies yet 3 of the top 8 slots at the LVO are in fact those armies.
On the contrary... for the original release the Tzaangor kit was warmly received because most people acknowledged that Thousand Sons needed a throw away meat shield unit and were pleased with Tzaangors even though Cultists would have done just fine. The issue is the Thousand Sons book went from an honest attempt to expand the line to little more than a cash grab in the span of a year. No effort was made to expand the Thousand Sons themselves or make them the star of the book.
Tzaangors date back to rogue trader as part of the thousand sons. So your argument is even based on an accurate premise.
Red Corsair wrote: People claiming rubrics are useless and tzaangors are replacing them are in for a few horrible matches lol. My Catachan army won't even need to flex it's muscles tol dust some garbage tzaangors off the table in a turn. 330 points worth of hellhounds will flat murder them, the flying ones too. Meanwhile rubrics would get their full 3+ saves. Your going to need a healthy mix of units to take on a variety of opponents.
Such strange arguments. Had Tzaangors been objectively worse then rubrics people would have pointed out that they were pointless for the army, and that half the book was dead weight. Instead the already gorgeous line doubles in size and adds actually competitively viable options to boot and somehow people are mad? Unbelievable.
Oh and half the keyboard generals in here are the same type of people that said wraith knights were garbage when they were released. Sort of like how people say space wolves, and blood angels are not top tier worthy armies yet 3 of the top 8 slots at the LVO are in fact those armies.
On the contrary... for the original release the Tzaangor kit was warmly received because most people acknowledged that Thousand Sons needed a throw away meat shield unit and were pleased with Tzaangors even though Cultists would have done just fine. The issue is the Thousand Sons book went from an honest attempt to expand the line to little more than a cash grab in the span of a year. No effort was made to expand the Thousand Sons themselves or make them the star of the book.
Tzaangors date back to rogue trader as part of the thousand sons. So your argument is even based on an accurate premise.
And they haven't been mentioned inbetween. And RT is not 40k. It's changed far too much.
I don’t see a problem with tzaangors per se it’s more a case of why is there no stratagem for rubrics like there is for tzaangors. One stratagem and I think most people feel fine. Even if the strat was something like what the enlightened get
2cp for every 6 rolled by a unit of rubrics in the shooting phase that round automatically wounds. Bam simple easy and really boosts the strength of the sons.
demontalons wrote: I don’t see a problem with tzaangors per se it’s more a case of why is there no stratagem for rubrics like there is for tzaangors. One stratagem and I think most people feel fine. Even if the strat was something like what the enlightened get
2cp for every 6 rolled by a unit of rubrics in the shooting phase that round automatically wounds. Bam simple easy and really boosts the strength of the sons.
Nobody is having issues with the Gors. Even those of us complaining about the dex. It's when people say "they've always been there" as an acceptable excuse for what GW has done that irks me.
See page 19 or 20 for strats/relics/wl traits. Magnus went up 30, SOT sorc went down like 14? No other points changes. Psychic powers are scattered around.
Virules wrote: Is there any place that has a summary of all the changes including points changes?
The StrikingScorpion video goes through literally everything in the dex, including the points costs. I'm surprised the video is still up, I thought GW was cracking down on people doing that in their previews.
demontalons wrote: I don’t see a problem with tzaangors per se it’s more a case of why is there no stratagem for rubrics like there is for tzaangors. One stratagem and I think most people feel fine. Even if the strat was something like what the enlightened get
2cp for every 6 rolled by a unit of rubrics in the shooting phase that round automatically wounds. Bam simple easy and really boosts the strength of the sons.
Or, 1-2 CP to let a unit of Rubrics apply their All is Dust rule to multi-wound weapons until the end of the round. Tank lascannon blasts with your face.
demontalons wrote: I don’t see a problem with tzaangors per se it’s more a case of why is there no stratagem for rubrics like there is for tzaangors. One stratagem and I think most people feel fine. Even if the strat was something like what the enlightened get
2cp for every 6 rolled by a unit of rubrics in the shooting phase that round automatically wounds. Bam simple easy and really boosts the strength of the sons.
Or, 1-2 CP to let a unit of Rubrics apply their All is Dust rule to multi-wound weapons until the end of the round. Tank lascannon blasts with your face.
I would have liked that a lot. Make it something you can declare after your opponent has chosen to shot like the Night Lords stratagem so your opponent is stuck using at least some plasma against a rubric squad with a 4++.
demontalons wrote: I don’t see a problem with tzaangors per se it’s more a case of why is there no stratagem for rubrics like there is for tzaangors. One stratagem and I think most people feel fine. Even if the strat was something like what the enlightened get
2cp for every 6 rolled by a unit of rubrics in the shooting phase that round automatically wounds. Bam simple easy and really boosts the strength of the sons.
Or, 1-2 CP to let a unit of Rubrics apply their All is Dust rule to multi-wound weapons until the end of the round. Tank lascannon blasts with your face.
I also think they should have this rule. Or 1-2 cp for warp bolters etc to go up to damage 2
Automatically Appended Next Post: How many points is a TS daemon prince? More than csm right? Even with no wings
I would have liked that a lot. Make it something you can declare after your opponent has chosen to shot like the Night Lords stratagem so your opponent is stuck using at least some plasma against a rubric squad with a 4++.
This. This would be amazing and perfectly in line with the Tzeentch tag line of suddenly shifting things according to plan.
I know it probably won't become a thing, but I put it into FAQ anyway.
Nvs wrote: On the contrary... for the original release the Tzaangor kit was warmly received because most people acknowledged that Thousand Sons needed a throw away meat shield unit and were pleased with Tzaangors even though Cultists would have done just fine. The issue is the Thousand Sons book went from an honest attempt to expand the line to little more than a cash grab in the span of a year. No effort was made to expand the Thousand Sons themselves or make them the star of the book.
Thinking of this as a cash-grab misses the point a bit. GW's in the process of rapidly releasing codices for every army, which means most armies aren't getting expansions of their model range in conjunction with their book. Their focus is (rightly, I believe) on getting every army up to a playable standard as quickly as possible, peppered with just a few "full treatment" releases. And in spite of that, they still seem to be genuinely trying to give new options to armies when possible (like grand master nemesis dreadknights in grey knights, space marine flyers in dark angels, etc.). In that regard, thousand sons (with their penchant for sorcery, association with Tzeentch, and established link to tzaangors) presented them a unique opportunity to actually add some new units to the game by porting models in from fantasy battle/Age of Sigmar, so they took it. Sure, they knew it would help them sell some models, but is it so hard to believe they were trying to give fans something exciting within the limitations of the task before them? Would people have preferred to basically just get the index entries reprinted with a few tweaks for balance, but otherwise nothing new? Or an elite version of rubric marines in another battlefield role, with an extra ability and maybe a few statlne buffs, but no unique equipment options? Because I think those were the alternatives. Thousand sons got a proper launch with five brand new kits a year and a half ago, so there was never any chance we were getting new models with this book. I understand being a little frustrated that much of the focus is on the new stuff, which isn't the heart and soul of the faction, and there definitely should have been some strategem exclusively for rubric marines, but can you really blame them for focusing on the new stuff? The more traditional thousand sons stuff still got a whole lot better with all the access to spells, relics, and stratagem, and is frankly still much of what I'm excited to play.
Nvs wrote: No effort was made to expand the Thousand Sons themselves or make them the star of the book.
I think anyone who expected new 1KSons models is quite naive.
It has been clear right from the get go that there are two types of Codex release this edition:
1. Lesser Codex - the model line already exists, so they get a book, cards, dice and maybe a token new miniature release.
2. Greater Codex - the model line does not exist, so they get a book, cards, dice, and their full range of new models.
Custodes, Death Guard and Primaris Marines fall into that second category. Everything else falls into that first category. Chaos Daemons and 1KSons got a tiny bit more simply by porting over Fantasy models, but nevertheless they are lesser Codices who don't really get anything new.
Please note that when I say 'lesser' and 'greater', I'm not saying that in terms of worth. The Craftworld Eldar Codex isn't a 'lesser' Codex than, say, the Death Guard Codex. Instead I mean lesser in terms of resources dedicated to its release. The Blood Angels already have their miniature line, so releasing anything outside of a token HQ isn't necessary. Custodes on the other hand have 1 box of 5 infantry, so doing them as a full release requires a greater use of resources to give them new kits to go with their release.
Like it or not, 1KSons got their release towards the end of 7th. They got their new kits, the first plastic 1KSons kits ever made, and that's it. If it'd be Death Guard that came first then you'd've seen 1KSons getting a big release with lots of new kits and Death Guard getting a 'lesser' Codex this time around.
1KSons players were never going to get new models this time around, just as Tyranids, Grey Knights, Chaos Space Marines, Necrons, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels and Dark Angels didn't get new models (outside of token single releases).
Nvs wrote: On the contrary... for the original release the Tzaangor kit was warmly received because most people acknowledged that Thousand Sons needed a throw away meat shield unit and were pleased with Tzaangors even though Cultists would have done just fine. The issue is the Thousand Sons book went from an honest attempt to expand the line to little more than a cash grab in the span of a year. No effort was made to expand the Thousand Sons themselves or make them the star of the book.
Thinking of this as a cash-grab misses the point a bit. GW's in the process of rapidly releasing codices for every army, which means most armies aren't getting expansions of their model range in conjunction with their book. Their focus is (rightly, I believe) on getting every army up to a playable standard as quickly as possible, peppered with just a few "full treatment" releases. And in spite of that, they still seem to be genuinely trying to give new options to armies when possible (like grand master nemesis dreadknights in grey knights, space marine flyers in dark angels, etc.). In that regard, thousand sons (with their penchant for sorcery, association with Tzeentch, and established link to tzaangors) presented them a unique opportunity to actually add some new units to the game by porting models in from fantasy battle/Age of Sigmar, so they took it. Sure, they knew it would help them sell some models, but is it so hard to believe they were trying to give fans something exciting within the limitations of the task before them? Would people have preferred to basically just get the index entries reprinted with a few tweaks for balance, but otherwise nothing new? Or an elite version of rubric marines in another battlefield role, with an extra ability and maybe a few statlne buffs, but no unique equipment options? Because I think those were the alternatives. Thousand sons got a proper launch with five brand new kits a year and a half ago, so there was never any chance we were getting new models with this book. I understand being a little frustrated that much of the focus is on the new stuff, which isn't the heart and soul of the faction, and there definitely should have been some strategem exclusively for rubric marines, but can you really blame them for focusing on the new stuff? The more traditional thousand sons stuff still got a whole lot better with all the access to spells, relics, and stratagem, and is frankly still much of what I'm excited to play.
Lets assume your correct and they are only trying to release codexs
Then why add any models to any line? It's faster to take the models you have and make the most of those THEN start moving towards a complete codex.
Why release Custodes and a bunch of new models?
Why have collectors editions stuff?
Benn Roe wrote: but can you really blame them for focusing on the new stuff?
Yes, Yes I can. 22 strats, not one of them geared towards keeping rubrics alive. Do you honestly think this is not our "full treatment"?
This is it man we are going to get and FAQ in few weeks and will not hear anything about TS for years probably. They can't drop the Rubrics points, becuase 20 man squads would cost too little, they can't buff the sorcs up to full it will make min squads too expensive, they wont pull the SOS or the AS out of the squads and make them independent units, either cheap HQs or Elites because the boxes. Even though that would be super easy add 2 units which were TS and give you the ability to create a new mechanic.
Nvs wrote: No effort was made to expand the Thousand Sons themselves or make them the star of the book.
I think anyone who expected new 1KSons models is quite naive.
It has been clear right from the get go that there are two types of Codex release this edition:
1. Lesser Codex - the model line already exists, so they get a book, cards, dice and maybe a token new miniature release.
2. Greater Codex - the model line does not exist, so they get a book, cards, dice, and their full range of new models.
Custodes, Death Guard and Primaris Marines fall into that second category. Everything else falls into that first category. Chaos Daemons and 1KSons got a tiny bit more simply by porting over Fantasy models, but nevertheless they are lesser Codices who don't really get anything new.
Please note that when I say 'lesser' and 'greater', I'm not saying that in terms of worth. The Craftworld Eldar Codex isn't a 'lesser' Codex than, say, the Death Guard Codex. Instead I mean lesser in terms of resources dedicated to its release. The Blood Angels already have their miniature line, so releasing anything outside of a token HQ isn't necessary. Custodes on the other hand have 1 box of 5 infantry, so doing them as a full release requires a greater use of resources to give them new kits to go with their release.
Like it or not, 1KSons got their release towards the end of 7th. They got their new kits, the first plastic 1KSons kits ever made, and that's it. If it'd be Death Guard that came first then you'd've seen 1KSons getting a big release with lots of new kits and Death Guard getting a 'lesser' Codex this time around.
1KSons players were never going to get new models this time around, just as Tyranids, Grey Knights, Chaos Space Marines, Necrons, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels and Dark Angels didn't get new models (outside of token single releases).
I didn't expect new models.
But as has been outlined in this thread my myself and others, expanded rules for Thousand Sons themed units using pre-existing models would have been possible. Especially when it should have been obvious that expansive Tzaangor selection was going to be met with mixed reviews.
Hell I would have settled for a mention of new things coming "soon", or at least ideas on how they plan to expand in the future. Instead it's like you (the rubrics) have your parents (gw) tell you they are going to get you a pet, you're thinking a puppy (more Thousand Sons Legion), and they get you a kitten (Tzaangors). Now you're happy with a kitten, but then they are trying to tell you it's the best thing ever and you'll never love anything more than this kitten. They never mention a puppy ever again.
But as has been outlined in this thread my myself and others, expanded rules for Thousand Sons themed units using pre-existing models would have been possible. Especially when it should have been obvious that expansive Tzaangor selection was going to be met with mixed reviews.
But that's you. And that's fine. Try to feel more empathy towards fellow gamers. Come to their level and see how they feel.
Basically I choose to see our expanded power range as rubric stratagems. I think on table we will be fine and as we play we will see that rubrics and terms do quite well with psychic support. That doesn’t mean that GW didn’t make a mistake without giving rubrics a stratagem.
I mean spawn got a stratagem, demon engines get a stratagem, as tzaangors got a strat, packers got a few strats. The only thing without a strat is our brothers in dust
Nvs wrote: On the contrary... for the original release the Tzaangor kit was warmly received because most people acknowledged that Thousand Sons needed a throw away meat shield unit and were pleased with Tzaangors even though Cultists would have done just fine. The issue is the Thousand Sons book went from an honest attempt to expand the line to little more than a cash grab in the span of a year. No effort was made to expand the Thousand Sons themselves or make them the star of the book.
Thinking of this as a cash-grab misses the point a bit. GW's in the process of rapidly releasing codices for every army, which means most armies aren't getting expansions of their model range in conjunction with their book. Their focus is (rightly, I believe) on getting every army up to a playable standard as quickly as possible, peppered with just a few "full treatment" releases. And in spite of that, they still seem to be genuinely trying to give new options to armies when possible (like grand master nemesis dreadknights in grey knights, space marine flyers in dark angels, etc.). In that regard, thousand sons (with their penchant for sorcery, association with Tzeentch, and established link to tzaangors) presented them a unique opportunity to actually add some new units to the game by porting models in from fantasy battle/Age of Sigmar, so they took it. Sure, they knew it would help them sell some models, but is it so hard to believe they were trying to give fans something exciting within the limitations of the task before them? Would people have preferred to basically just get the index entries reprinted with a few tweaks for balance, but otherwise nothing new? Or an elite version of rubric marines in another battlefield role, with an extra ability and maybe a few statlne buffs, but no unique equipment options? Because I think those were the alternatives. Thousand sons got a proper launch with five brand new kits a year and a half ago, so there was never any chance we were getting new models with this book. I understand being a little frustrated that much of the focus is on the new stuff, which isn't the heart and soul of the faction, and there definitely should have been some strategem exclusively for rubric marines, but can you really blame them for focusing on the new stuff? The more traditional thousand sons stuff still got a whole lot better with all the access to spells, relics, and stratagem, and is frankly still much of what I'm excited to play.
I typed a response but it was eaten by the warp...
But anyway, I didn't expect new models. I don't even have a problem with them adding the other Tzaangor units. The issue, as you mentioned, was the lack of anything beyond a thinly veiled attempt to modify the book enough to justify the addition of a few AoS kits into the already-released Thousand Sons book from a year ago. And yes, I can blame them for this. How many times in this thread were things like Rubric Havocs, Psyker Hellbrutes, and Brotherhood of Psyker units mentioned? These are things that wouldn't have required new kits because we could have easily modified pre-existing kits to fit these things. I mean we don't even have a proper Havocs box yet. They could have thrown a couple Rubric Heads on the sprue when they got around to it and in the meantime we would just use FW bits on the Rubric box like most players do today with normal havocs and CSM to avoid failcast.
I didn't want nor did I expect new models. I just expected a little effort and creative rules writing to justify an actual Thousand Sons codex instead of a Warriors of Tzeentch one.
Then why add any models to any line? It's faster to take the models you have and make the most of those THEN start moving towards a complete codex.
Why release Custodes and a bunch of new models?
Why have collectors editions stuff?
They know they can't get away with only putting out books for a year, and they clearly wanted to keep up momentum for excitement this edition by having some new(ish) armies. Neither death guard nor custodes would have been possible as full codices without additional models, so they got full model support. Death guard (along with primaris because of course, grumble, grumble) was the new army to kick off the edition, custodes is the "stay with us" mid-way point, and if there's any justice in the world they'll round out the codex-release flurry with a range of plastic sisters. Otherwise, every codex has gotten only a single clampack (usually a re-release from a previous box-set) or they've gotten a minor rules expansion that corresponds with existing models only. Like it or not, that's the price of an edition so fundamentally changed that every army needs a new book.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Yes, Yes I can. 22 strats, not one of them geared towards keeping rubrics alive. Do you honestly think this is not our "full treatment"?
This is it man we are going to get and FAQ in few weeks and will not hear anything about TS for years probably. They can't drop the Rubrics points, becuase 20 man squads would cost too little, they can't buff the sorcs up to full it will make min squads too expensive, they wont pull the SOS or the AS out of the squads and make them independent units, either cheap HQs or Elites because the boxes. Even though that would be super easy add 2 units which were TS and give you the ability to create a new mechanic.
Please don't be disingenuous. I literally conceded the stratagem issue in the same sentence you partially quoted. I agree that that was lost opportunity. My point was that it's reasonable for the tzaangors to steal a bit of the limelight because most of the "new" kits we were able to get were types of tzaangor, and they want to play up the new toys. You and warpspy been working hard to find reasons to hate this codex since we got our earliest leaks, so it doesn't surprise me you've found them, but rubric marines still have the ability to have a 3++ against anti-infantry weapons, so they're not exactly sitting ducks, and their mobility and buffing options are vastly improved with the new book. Many of the close-combat buffs also go a long way toward pushing our marines over that finish line in combat, when used well. They're not just for tzaangors!
And apologies for not being clearer, my use of the phrase "full treatment" was in reference to the model range. I understand this is the codex for the edition. I'm glad we got a good one! That said, there's nothing in the world stopping them from releasing new units after the book and including rules in the box. They did it with tyranids last edition, and with the triumvirate boxes. Also, they adapted HQs from the contents of troops boxes for both harlequins and custodes, so that's not impossible either. My guess for why they didn't do it here is that they gave us standard sorcerers as our cheap(ish) HQ option, and tzaangor shamans as our elite-slot sorcerer. You know what would make great models for thousand sons versions of the CSM sorcerers, though? You guessed it.
Also, think about this: if they continue to release codices at their current rate, they'll be done with all the major books well before the end of 2018. There are only a few directions they can go after that: 1) ninth edition; 2) new armies; or 3) filling in and expanding model ranges. The cynics will say "9th", and maybe they're right, but 9th will likely be a spit-shining of 8th with all the changes made so far added in to the core book, which would honestly be kind of great, and either way we're likely to see option 3 or some combination of 2 and 3. Will thousand sons get anything new in that time? Who knows? We certainly don't need models for existing options like other armies do. Would I like to see rubric marines expanded to other battlefield roles with other equipment options? Totally, and I'd love to see upgrade kits for daemon princes and CSM vehicles to make them fit the thousand sons look better, but we don't need them, so I'm happy to wait. We did, after all, get five model kits less than two years ago, and (technically) three more this week.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nvs wrote: I typed a response but it was eaten by the warp...
But anyway, I didn't expect new models. I don't even have a problem with them adding the other Tzaangor units. The issue, as you mentioned, was the lack of anything beyond a thinly veiled attempt to modify the book enough to justify the addition of a few AoS kits into the already-released Thousand Sons book from a year ago. And yes, I can blame them for this. How many times in this thread were things like Rubric Havocs, Psyker Hellbrutes, and Brotherhood of Psyker units mentioned? These are things that wouldn't have required new kits because we could have easily modified pre-existing kits to fit these things. I mean we don't even have a proper Havocs box yet. They could have thrown a couple Rubric Heads on the sprue when they got around to it and in the meantime we would just use FW bits on the Rubric box like most players do today with normal havocs and CSM to avoid failcast.
I didn't want nor did I expect new models. I just expected a little effort and creative rules writing to justify an actual Thousand Sons codex instead of a Warriors of Tzeentch one.
I would have liked that additional support too. I certainly got into the army for the weird ancient-Egypt-themed golem marines and sorcerers, not the bird-goat-horse-people, but the book is full of heavy support options, and there was no basis for that expectation based on the evidence of all other codices this edition, and many from the last two editions. Like it or not, agree with them or not, GW believes that requiring conversions for anything leaves them open to third parties filling the vacuum, which leaves their IP vulnerable, so they gave us the book they could give us. Variety of options in most or all battlefield roles? Check. New stuff to play? Check. In the midst of the codex flurry, and given the newness of our range, I think we made out better than most. Like virtually everyone else, we'll just have to wait for more.
But anyway, I didn't expect new models. I don't even have a problem with them adding the other Tzaangor units. The issue, as you mentioned, was the lack of anything beyond a thinly veiled attempt to modify the book enough to justify the addition of a few AoS kits into the already-released Thousand Sons book from a year ago. And yes, I can blame them for this. How many times in this thread were things like Rubric Havocs, Psyker Hellbrutes, and Brotherhood of Psyker units mentioned? These are things that wouldn't have required new kits because we could have easily modified pre-existing kits to fit these things. I mean we don't even have a proper Havocs box yet. They could have thrown a couple Rubric Heads on the sprue when they got around to it and in the meantime we would just use FW bits on the Rubric box like most players do today with normal havocs and CSM to avoid failcast.
I didn't want nor did I expect new models. I just expected a little effort and creative rules writing to justify an actual Thousand Sons codex instead of a Warriors of Tzeentch one.
Nvs wrote: I didn't want nor did I expect new models. I just expected a little effort and creative rules writing to justify an actual Thousand Sons codex instead of a Warriors of Tzeentch one.
I'm just going to say the current tson army list has quite a bit more creativity than most. It certainly is more creative compared to how imperial snowflake chapters are handled, given it differs from the basic CSM so heavily and includes a lot of things that aren't power army.
I get it isn't what everyone wants, but DG and tsons both stay true to the lore while bringing a new type of mixed army we haven't really seen much of before, in the form of chaos warbands dedicated to their patron god and lead by the CSM legion of said god. It's certainly better than khorne daemonkin in that regard. It is something different and rather novel. Which is why I find it rather discouraging that so many people are quick to reject it and demand more power armor instead....
But anyway, I didn't expect new models. I don't even have a problem with them adding the other Tzaangor units. The issue, as you mentioned, was the lack of anything beyond a thinly veiled attempt to modify the book enough to justify the addition of a few AoS kits into the already-released Thousand Sons book from a year ago. And yes, I can blame them for this. How many times in this thread were things like Rubric Havocs, Psyker Hellbrutes, and Brotherhood of Psyker units mentioned? These are things that wouldn't have required new kits because we could have easily modified pre-existing kits to fit these things. I mean we don't even have a proper Havocs box yet. They could have thrown a couple Rubric Heads on the sprue when they got around to it and in the meantime we would just use FW bits on the Rubric box like most players do today with normal havocs and CSM to avoid failcast.
I didn't want nor did I expect new models. I just expected a little effort and creative rules writing to justify an actual Thousand Sons codex instead of a Warriors of Tzeentch one.
A thousand times this. Totally agree with you.
The helbrute kit can, in no way, support a psychic dread. Even if they did that - "LAZY GW! Rubric dreadnoughts wouldn't look like that!". You know it's true.
The old havoc kit would look so ridiculously bad with TS heads.
I ran a bunch of number calculations yesterday in an attempt to compare Rubrics to other units in similar roles. The results are not promising. Here's a quick summary:
Noise marines do shooting better and benefit more from VOTLW, and are less vulnerable to melee. They can even be used offensively as melee. Rubrics are a bit more durable due to all is dust and invul. But if your goal is an elite MeQ shooting army, noise marines do it better.
Intercessors are a very close comparison. Slightly less pts after weapons (18 vs 20), -1 ap instead of -2, but then they have +1 attack, +1 wound, and 30" range. A full squad of vanilla primaris doesn't quite have the damage output of a 10man rubric squad with a soul reaper, until you add auras. If the Intercessors have a Lt. nearby, they pull even for shooting. They are less durable than 1ksons vs high damage weapons. They are also much more capable in melee. And if we're talking about BA intercessors, things get crazy. They can get +1 str from a priest, narthecium, red thirst, and standard of sacrifice. With all that, they beat rubrics easily in shooting, beat them in survivability with 2W and 5+++, and are a crushingly good CC unit with str 5 and +1 to wound when charged or charging (and re-roll 1's for hits and wounds.) Now that's a bunch of character buffs, and rubrics can get psychic buffs, but the BA still pull far far ahead.
The thing is, a strat or two would make Rubrics better, but the overall problem is that there's just very little role for MeQs in the game right now period. MeQ statline is not good in 8th, and all the units based off it are struggling, even elite ones. You're just better off with cheaper swarm units paired with big tanks/monsters.
To see what I mean, consider what points cost Tac marines would need to be to be worth using as the core of your army. Even at 10pts, or 8pts, they still aren't a great option because no amount of str4 ap0 shots is gonna kill all that much.
And how much cost per model a unit of Intercessors + Priest, + Aphotecary, + Standard bearer? Of course they beat unsuported rubrics with all those buffs. But how much more they cost?
I agree thought that basically the basic space marine statline is impossible to balance. You can't make them much cheaper, because then you start entering other infantry territory. It doesn't matter that S4 is useless without meele weapons and only 1 attack, they need to pay for it. You can't make it better because you have no more design space.
Primaris Marines are the future for space marines, both for rules and for models.
Theres no price point that you can give at a Tactical Marine that don't broke the game, because the statline is totally wrong from pure game design point, it has no focus, no point in a game where generalists are normally very bad. You need put a TON of special rules on top to make that statline work.
On the other hand, the basic Primaris statline solves all of that. They have the wounds to be durable agaisn't small arms fire, they have the attacks to be competent in meele even without weapons, and their 30" S4 with -1AP Bolt Rifles are actually capable of doing things. To that statline, you can give a fair price , because they can actually DO things in a competent way.
Galas wrote: And how much cost per model a unit of Intercessors + Priest, + Aphotecary, + Standard bearer? Of course they beat unsuported rubrics with all those buffs. But how much more they cost?
I agree thought that basically the basic space marine statline is impossible to balance. You can't make them much cheaper, because then you start entering other infantry territory. It doesn't matter that S4 is useless without meele weapons and only 1 attack, they need to pay for it. You can't make it better because you have no more design space.
Primaris Marines are the future for space marines, both for rules and for models.
Theres no price point that you can give at a Tactical Marine that don't broke the game, because the statline is from a pure game design point is without any kind of focus in a game where generalists are normally very bad, that you need to put a TON of special rules on top to make them worth it.
On the other hand, the basic Primaris statline solves all of that. They have the wounds to be durable agaisn't small arms fire, they have the attacks to be competent in meele even without weapons, and their 30" S4 with -1AP Bolt Rifles are actually capable of doing things. To that statline, you can give a fair price , because they can actually DO things in a competent way.
They cost similar amounts of Rubrics with Sorcerer support. BA characters can run cheap. Or you can give them a fist+shield and they're still under 100pts, while being capable of serious damage and tanking. But yeah, it's a difficult exact comparison to make. But it's not a difficult general comparison to make.
If you have to factor in sorcerer support, you have the very real possibility of the rubrics packing +1 to invuls, rerolling 1s to hit, having +1 to hit or having -1 to hit them.
Or a combination of the above.
BoomWolf wrote: If you have to factor in sorcerer support, you have the very real possibility of the rubrics packing +1 to invuls, rerolling 1s to hit, having +1 to hit or having -1 to hit them.
Or a combination of the above.
Yes, but on one squad at a time, and dependent on passing Psychic tests and not getting denied. Whereas the BA auras are weaker, but reliably effect lots of units.
And require a much bigger investment in points as you need a lot of characthers, while the rubrics can technically buff themselves if you really want to.
Point is, the comparison is more complicated than you make it out to be.
BoomWolf wrote: And require a much bigger investment in points as you need a lot of characthers, while the rubrics can technically buff themselves if you really want to.
Point is, the comparison is more complicated than you make it out to be.
It's complicated if you're comparing 1 squad of intercessors with theoretical support to 1 squad of rubrics with theoretical support. It's not complicated if you're doing a detachment. Compare 3 squads of intercessors + characters to 3 squads of rubrics + characters + support to make up any point differences and it is straightforward.
BoomWolf wrote: If you have to factor in sorcerer support, you have the very real possibility of the rubrics packing +1 to invuls, rerolling 1s to hit, having +1 to hit or having -1 to hit them.
Or a combination of the above.
Yes, but on one squad at a time, and dependent on passing Psychic tests and not getting denied. Whereas the BA auras are weaker, but reliably effect lots of units.
Am I the only one that finds this entirely fluffy? Chaos is all about the possibility of greatness, but at the risk of it being fickle.
BoomWolf wrote: If you have to factor in sorcerer support, you have the very real possibility of the rubrics packing +1 to invuls, rerolling 1s to hit, having +1 to hit or having -1 to hit them.
Or a combination of the above.
Yes, but on one squad at a time, and dependent on passing Psychic tests and not getting denied. Whereas the BA auras are weaker, but reliably effect lots of units.
Am I the only one that finds this entirely fluffy? Chaos is all about the possibility of greatness, but at the risk of it being fickle.
It would be fluffy is there was any possibility of greatness. Right now you need a bunch of powers to get on the level of what others have by default, or with reliable auras. Chaos is supposed to be high risk high reward. Right now it's high risk for mediocre reward. That's the whole issue. If Thousand Sons powers were actually significantly stronger than other armies, 1ksons could be great. But they just aren't.
I didn't want nor did I expect new models. I just expected a little effort and creative rules writing to justify an actual Thousand Sons codex instead of a Warriors of Tzeentch one.
A thousand times this. Totally agree with you.
The helbrute kit can, in no way, support a psychic dread. Even if they did that - "LAZY GW! Rubric dreadnoughts wouldn't look like that!". You know it's true.
The old havoc kit would look so ridiculously bad with TS heads.
I was not talking about specific models. The last sentence of the quote from Nvs is what i fully agree. Has been said by many people and myself before, it's not the new models per se, it is that the codex required some more thought and effort, like optimizing the boxes kits released so it could be possible to make 2 or more units with each of them. GW has plenty of models that could be used as a psyker dreadnought for that matter (BTW, hellbrute is a stupid name, it always has been "Chaos dreadnought", and for me is still a "chaos dreadnought"... i don't understand the absurd new naming policie ).
On another issue, has anyone noticed if in the codex there are any rule or clarification about what happens when an aspiring sorcerer from the rubric marines squad or the sorcerer from the SO terminator squad suffers perils of the warp?
I think there are none. This needed a clarification or any kind of rule to avoid destroying a full squad while trying to launch a psychic power... Add this to the soulreaper every 10 models and again GW show that they are just copy-pasting units entries... Lazy, lazy GW
I like the book. I will not be purchasing any tzaangors. I already own a huge fantasy beastmen army, already painted more than enough goats for a lifetime. I also have a ton of blue and brimstone horrors to fill up the slot of cheap bodies so I will be using those instead (plus, even more psychic powers yay). At any rate, I have a lot of anticipation on how the army will roll on the table. Might buy a Mutalith, mostly because it looks to be fairly cheap for what it can potentially do.
One big thing that I think most people don't consider is the sorcerers everywhere (and also free upgrades for the SOS and the rubrics). We do not have a psychic pool in this edition. We are not limited on how many spells we can cast per turn. If we want, we can have 8+ casters tossing out 12-15 powers a turn. Sure not all of them will go through, but even if half of them do, that's 6-7 extra abilities per turn. No other army will have any chance whatsoever to stop all our powers. We will also always have a sorcerer in range to try and deny an enemy spell. I think most people overlook this fact.
I also think that , due to All is dust, if we take a no-goat list then we practically render all small arms of the opponent moot. What are you going to do with your bolter fire? Shoot at my vehicles/ DP's or shoot at my rubrics with their 2+ save? On the other hand if we do add goats then there's a target for all the small arms.
I do - like everyone else- hate the 1 soulcannon per 10 models, not because I would otherwise field them 5x, but because I really want them to be 9x because Tzeentch. I think this thing stayed as is because there is only one cannon in the box of 10. I will have to live with that I guess.
I will be playing my scarabs too, Deep strike in this edition is too good not to take. Rhinos with warpflame gargoyles will become nasty more often than not.
3 units of brimstone horrors
3 units of rubrics (maybe two 5-mans with flamers and a 9x with bolters to act as central buffer for characters
2 units of SOT, 5 strong with 2 heavy weapons each.
3 Rhinos
Either exalted sorcerers or Daemon Princes as HQ Couple of artifacts
Spend any remaining points on long range heavy hitters (havocs/hellbrutes/defiler)
I would dig such a list a lot. 13-14 powers to cast, 24" smites, decent body count, little bit of deepstrike, the occational Daemon Prince or hellbrute for close combat smashing.
I'm very conflicted with this release. While I'm personally happy, I only plan on running small detachments of TS rubrics/sorcerers alongside undivided armies, so the psychic potential is amazing. On the other hand this book seems to lean towards tzeentch daemonkin more than many people seem to want. While I appreciate that is fluffy (low numbers of Tsons, high numbers of indigenous gribblies on their planet), it does seem like the pure legion side of the codex is weaker - unlike the DG codex.
But then again, I also like that GW is representing that chaos marines rarely form the bulk of a chaos incursion/invasion. There's rebels, beasties and nutters that amble along in front, with the actual power-armour dudes forming the elite core.
Sure but that also makes it seem like the Legions are on their way out. They have low number of legionnaires, and mostly rely on small things to make up bulk... how does that stand up to Gurly Man and his Empire?
nintura wrote: Sure but that also makes it seem like the Legions are on their way out. They have low number of legionnaires, and mostly rely on small things to make up bulk... how does that stand up to Gurly Man and his Empire?
I don't think you understand the new plot. This is all build-up to the release of the exciting new model range of PrimEVIL marines! Reinforcements of much, much taller, highly different evil space marines to buyiiiii mean play with.
nintura wrote: Sure but that also makes it seem like the Legions are on their way out. They have low number of legionnaires, and mostly rely on small things to make up bulk... how does that stand up to Gurly Man and his Empire?
I don't think you understand the new plot. This is all build-up to the release of the exciting new model range of PrimEVIL marines! Reinforcements of much, much taller, highly different evil space marines to buyiiiii mean play with.
Fortunately the TS and DG kits are on the same scale as Primaris, which of course doesn't preclude the possibility of BL getting Primaris.
nintura wrote: Sure but that also makes it seem like the Legions are on their way out. They have low number of legionnaires, and mostly rely on small things to make up bulk... how does that stand up to Gurly Man and his Empire?
I don't think it means legions are on their way out. I think now that chaos invasions can occur literally anywhere, the only way it is really possible to explain e.g. world eaters having the numbers to appear all over the galaxy, is to have each invasion composed of maybe a few thousand world eaters at the head of billions of daemons, insurrectionists, traitors, etc. All this does it put chaos army composition more in line with the imperial fluff that space marines are rare and the majority is made up of guard. The elite guys don't feel elite when they make up most of the line infantry.
This (in theory) shouldn't affect how pure legions play on the table, there will always be the option to have 100% of your army as power armour dudes + vehicles, with the option of adding monsters and heretics to the mix if you want a supported force. IMO this new approach is really helping chaos stand against other factions, what with power armour units being a bit sub-par in 8th. Now we have a wider range of units to pick from according to what we need, e.g. walls of chaff.
The only problem is when (like in the TS codex) the older PA options get less attention than the new stuff. But it can be amazing when done right. Really adds to the feel of chaos as more than evil spess muhrines
For example, at 2k points my typical DG army rarely has more power armour in it than 2 x 5 plague marines, some characters and maybe a blightlord squad (plus tanks). But when fielded alongside the chaff, the marines really give off the feel of "Oh, S***, these guys are tough mothers". Especially when your opponent is in a position where they are forced to deal with the fodder and has limited resources to try and go for the marines - the look of desperation as they realise the plague marines are too tough to deal with atm is just beautiful.
nintura wrote: Sure but that also makes it seem like the Legions are on their way out. They have low number of legionnaires, and mostly rely on small things to make up bulk... how does that stand up to Gurly Man and his Empire?
I don't think it means legions are on their way out. I think now that chaos invasions can occur literally anywhere, the only way it is really possible to explain e.g. world eaters having the numbers to appear all over the galaxy, is to have each invasion composed of maybe a few thousand world eaters at the head of billions of daemons, insurrectionists, traitors, etc. All this does it put chaos army composition more in line with the imperial fluff that space marines are rare and the majority is made up of guard. The elite guys don't feel elite when they make up most of the line infantry.
This (in theory) shouldn't affect how pure legions play on the table, there will always be the option to have 100% of your army is power armour dudes + armour, with the option of adding monsters and heretics to the mix if you want a supported force. IMO this new approach is really helping chaos stand against other factions, what with power armour units being a bit sub-par in 8th. Now we have a wider range of units to pick from according to what we need, e.g. walls of chaff.
The only problem is when (like in the TS codex) the older PA options get less attention than the new stuff. But it can be amazing when done right. Really adds to the feel of chaos as more than evil spess muhrines
For example, at 2k points my typical DG army rarely has more power armour in it than 2 x 5 plague marines, some characters and maybe a blightlord squad (plus tanks). But when fielded alongside the chaff, the marines really give off the feel of "Oh, S***, these guys are tough mothers". Especially when your opponent is in a position where they are forced to deal with the fodder and has limited resources to try and go for the marines - the look of desperation as they realise the plague marines are too tough to deal with atm is just beautiful.
And yet, loyalist chapters only have a thousand marines and still appear everywhere.
nintura wrote: And yet, loyalist chapters only have a thousand marines and still appear everywhere.
Yep. I've lost hope that they're ever going to treat SM as anything other than the special faction, but I can at least take solace in the fact that CSM has gained at little bit more depth since last edition.
nintura wrote: Sure but that also makes it seem like the Legions are on their way out. They have low number of legionnaires, and mostly rely on small things to make up bulk... how does that stand up to Gurly Man and his Empire?
Well, having a virtually untouchable stronghold to fall back to (the eye of terror) when they do need to recover and rebuild (for those that do, no idea how their are WEs still around), having almost entirely immortal and countless daemonic allies who are virtually impossible to put a real lasting dent in, drawing in a steady stream of new chaos marines due to renegade chapters/marines, and making usage of expandable cultists and mutants to blunt their own losses all come to mind.
Oh, and the whole "has access to millennia old veterans empowered by the chaos gods" doesn't hurt.
The legions don't need to be carbon copies of vanilla SM to be a threat.
Everyone keeps pointing out that the rubrics didn't get any stratagems of their own. Which is a valid criticism but I think whats a bigger issue is that we didn't get any new strategems that make for our psychic powers more reliable. We only have the one from Chapter Approve which gives one psyker a +2 for one power if they have two other psykers nearby. Not bad but i feel like we need more. For a psychic heavy army army I feel being able to manifest those powers is very important since in this edition you cant even try to manifest it again if you fail. They didn't even bother to put a simple re-roll failed psychic tests for 1 or 2 CP, which i would think is a no brainier for the thousands sons.
superbit415 wrote: I think whats a bigger issue is that we didn't get any new strategems that make for our psychic powers more reliable. We only have the one from Chapter Approve which gives one psyker a +2 for one power if they have two other psykers nearby. Not bad but i feel like we need more. For a psychic heavy army army I feel being able to manifest those powers is very important since in this edition you cant even try to manifest it again if you fail.
stratagems: +2 if next to two other casters, +1 if you roll well on the boon of tzeentch table (unlikely but still possible),
WL trait: +1 to cast
Unique characters: one with +1 to cast, one with +2 and a 9" reroll 1 bubble for psykers
terminator sorcerer: familiar gives +1 to first cast attempt each turn
tzaangor shaman: one use potion to reroll a failed psychic test
psychic power: gaze of fate = reroll one dice
and the standard use 1CP to reroll 1 dice
From what I can see there's a lot of ways to boost your psychic phase. There's even a relic to try and regain some CP that you might burn boosting your casting chances. Even without ahriman/magnus you can get +3 casts (+4 with insane luck) with an optional reroll for each dice, just in case you absolutely NEED to cast a spell.
Most of these aren't stratagems, as you said, but there are a lot of options to work around that.
superbit415 wrote: I think whats a bigger issue is that we didn't get any new strategems that make for our psychic powers more reliable. We only have the one from Chapter Approve which gives one psyker a +2 for one power if they have two other psykers nearby. Not bad but i feel like we need more. For a psychic heavy army army I feel being able to manifest those powers is very important since in this edition you cant even try to manifest it again if you fail.
stratagems: +2 if next to two other casters, +1 if you roll well on the boon of tzeentch table (unlikely but still possible),
WL trait: +1 to cast
Unique characters: one with +1 to cast, one with +2 and a 9" reroll 1 bubble for psykers
terminator sorcerer: familiar gives +1 to first cast attempt each turn
tzaangor shaman: one use potion to reroll a failed psychic test
psychic power: gaze of fate = reroll one dice
and the standard use 1CP to reroll 1 dice
From what I can see there's a lot of ways to boost your psychic phase. There's even a relic to try and regain some CP that you might burn boosting your casting chances. Even without ahriman/magnus you can get +3 casts (+4 with insane luck) with an optional reroll for each dice, just in case you absolutely NEED to cast a spell.
Most of these aren't stratagems, as you said, but there are a lot of options to work around that.
Most of what you mention is for unique or one model only. Our main non unique choice the exalted sorcerer, one of only 3 TS kits, gets nothing unless you make him your warlord. They are surpassed by a daemon prince in every way.
nintura wrote: Sure but that also makes it seem like the Legions are on their way out. They have low number of legionnaires, and mostly rely on small things to make up bulk... how does that stand up to Gurly Man and his Empire?
I don't think you understand the new plot. This is all build-up to the release of the exciting new model range of PrimEVIL marines! Reinforcements of much, much taller, highly different evil space marines to buyiiiii mean play with.
Fortunately the TS and DG kits are on the same scale as Primaris, which of course doesn't preclude the possibility of BL getting Primaris.
Um.. no. Thousand sons are a few millimeters shorter than Primaris marines, and that is with the TS standing on more or less straight legs, and Primaris bensing their legs quite a bit..
Zhan wrote: Most of what you mention is for unique or one model only. Our main non unique choice the exalted sorcerer, one of only 3 TS kits, gets nothing unless you make him your warlord. They are surpassed by a daemon prince in every way.
The point I was trying to make was that TS have lots of ways to boost their psykers. But what you say is true, there is nothing specifically for exalted sorcerers,
Even taking out the methods that require specific models/the warlord, there are still 3 small boosts you can use (two single dice rerolls and the +2 for bunching up) - I'm not adding the boon as that is not even close to reliable.
So if you are trying to cast a big spell that could swing the game, you could at least have someone cast gaze of fate, maybe also burn a CP for a reroll for at least a fair chance to cast.
Zhan wrote: Most of what you mention is for unique or one model only. Our main non unique choice the exalted sorcerer, one of only 3 TS kits, gets nothing unless you make him your warlord. They are surpassed by a daemon prince in every way.
The point I was trying to make was that TS have lots of ways to boost their psykers. But what you say is true, there is nothing specifically for exalted sorcerers,
Even taking out the methods that require specific models/the warlord, there are still 3 small boosts you can use (two single dice rerolls and the +2 for bunching up) - I'm not adding the boon as that is not even close to reliable.
So if you are trying to cast a big spell that could swing the game, you could at least have someone cast gaze of fate, maybe also burn a CP for a reroll for at least a fair chance to cast.
You cannot use the re-roll stratagem in the psychic phase due to perils of the warp. Aspiring (1W) and scarab occult sorcerers (2W) have a 100% and 50% of blowing up instantly when they suffer a single perils of the warp. In most case requiring you not only take a away the sorcerer but also a additional models from the unit (mortal wounds spill over) + you have to do D3 wounds to anything nearby. If you play with TS and you will find that you cant use the re-roll stratagem in a psychic phase due to the constant liability of getting screwed over by a perils throw.
And big spells. i don't agree that TS have such big spells at all. All single use spells are still maxed at D3 wounds. No more potent then a regular smite and certainly nothing approaching what some shooting/assault units can do.
Yes we get the +2 to cast stratagem but aside from paying command points and having an another requirement, we also have access to THE ONLY two WC9 spells in the game.
Why would i be happy i got a +2 stratagem so i attempt to cast a WC9 spell when other armies have powers that don't go high than WC7/8 ?
EDIT: All of this could have been easily fixed if exalted sorcerers would have gotten the re-roll 1 on psychic tests instead of a re-roll 1 to hit. It would leave them as superior choice in casting spells over a daemon prince + they would protect the rubrics/scarabs from being suicide bombers and helping all units in casting those WC7+ powers.
As for big spells, I was referring to death hex or dombolt. Something that is difficult to cast (WC8 or higher) but could have a key moment that decides a game. Off the top of my head I can think of removing papa G's invuln right before you hit him, or reducing the move of a nasty assault unit right before they hit your lines.
As an undivided player I've had at least a few moments where I needed a spell to go off (whether planned or in response to a sudden threat), and have it fail before my eyes and cost me heavily. If I could have at the time I would have loved for the chance to burn 2 CP and remove whatever mary sue character is making my life hell, as I find is often the case in 8th.
Agreed on the exalted aura though. But on the other hand rubric shooting would be even less effective, unless you take ahriman every game or tether a prince to your lines.
superbit415 wrote: Everyone keeps pointing out that the rubrics didn't get any stratagems of their own. Which is a valid criticism but I think whats a bigger issue is that we didn't get any new strategems that make for our psychic powers more reliable. We only have the one from Chapter Approve which gives one psyker a +2 for one power if they have two other psykers nearby. Not bad but i feel like we need more. For a psychic heavy army army I feel being able to manifest those powers is very important since in this edition you cant even try to manifest it again if you fail. They didn't even bother to put a simple re-roll failed psychic tests for 1 or 2 CP, which i would think is a no brainier for the thousands sons.
probably because you can already re-roll a failed psychic test for 1cp?
We've got three characters who get casting bonuses, a casting bonus warlord trait, some kind of thing as a relic (its bad, but it makes spells more reliable at least in theory) access to a free re-roll psychic power through daemons or DPs, a tzeentch stratagem that over half our casters can benefit from that allows rerolls of all psychic tests for being near daemon allies, and a one-use reroll of a psychic test on the shaman.
Zhan wrote: Most of what you mention is for unique or one model only. Our main non unique choice the exalted sorcerer, one of only 3 TS kits, gets nothing unless you make him your warlord. They are surpassed by a daemon prince in every way.
The point I was trying to make was that TS have lots of ways to boost their psykers. But what you say is true, there is nothing specifically for exalted sorcerers,
Even taking out the methods that require specific models/the warlord, there are still 3 small boosts you can use (two single dice rerolls and the +2 for bunching up) - I'm not adding the boon as that is not even close to reliable.
So if you are trying to cast a big spell that could swing the game, you could at least have someone cast gaze of fate, maybe also burn a CP for a reroll for at least a fair chance to cast.
You cannot use the re-roll stratagem in the psychic phase due to perils of the warp. Aspiring (1W) and scarab occult sorcerers (2W) have a 100% and 50% of blowing up instantly when they suffer a single perils of the warp. In most case requiring you not only take a away the sorcerer but also a additional models from the unit (mortal wounds spill over) + you have to do D3 wounds to anything nearby. If you play with TS and you will find that you cant use the re-roll stratagem in a psychic phase due to the constant liability of getting screwed over by a perils throw.
And big spells. i don't agree that TS have such big spells at all. All single use spells are still maxed at D3 wounds. No more potent then a regular smite and certainly nothing approaching what some shooting/assault units can do.
Yes we get the +2 to cast stratagem but aside from paying command points and having an another requirement, we also have access to THE ONLY two WC9 spells in the game.
Why would i be happy i got a +2 stratagem so i attempt to cast a WC9 spell when other armies have powers that don't go high than WC7/8 ?
EDIT: All of this could have been easily fixed if exalted sorcerers would have gotten the re-roll 1 on psychic tests instead of a re-roll 1 to hit. It would leave them as superior choice in casting spells over a daemon prince + they would protect the rubrics/scarabs from being suicide bombers and helping all units in casting those WC7+ powers.
You can absolutely use the reroll stratagem to prevent perils of the warp. What would prevent you from doing so?
If you're saying that you can't use it because you're worried about perils, you have a few options. 1) accept risk reward. 2) cast with perils-vulnerable casters first, then when theyre out of the way dont worry about it. 3) use gaze of fate and hold that reroll over.
I would (and have) roll 2 dice for an 8 spell if the spell was crucial. and if it WAS crucial, id suck the perils if it occurs.
that spell may be more important then 2-3 models or a few wounds.
with Ahriman ill usually run an exalted as another warlord, and a termie sorcerer for dang sure. +1 on most casts id toss out. at least with 2, and the termie sorcerer will generally only have 1 "must cast" spell.
Um.. no. Thousand sons are a few millimeters shorter than Primaris marines, and that is with the TS standing on more or less straight legs, and Primaris bensing their legs quite a bit..
Right they're not as big as them, but proportionally they're similar. Put a new Rubric up against an old CSM/Rubric.
You can absolutely use the reroll stratagem to prevent perils of the warp. What would prevent you from doing so?
If you're saying that you can't use it because you're worried about perils, you have a few options. 1) accept risk reward. 2) cast with perils-vulnerable casters first, then when theyre out of the way dont worry about it. 3) use gaze of fate and hold that reroll over.
Yeah and this why i am annoyed with the codex. If i tell people i want to play a TS psychic legion. Everyone says go for it.. You have 18 powers, psykers everywhere its super good etc etc.
But when i talk about the risk of perils. People tell me: Oh but you should only cast spells when they are "high rewarding" .... ? So during a game i shouldn't be casting 12 out 18 powers because they might not be rewarding enough. Not because they are weak per se but because i cannot target anything "rewarding" enough?
The effect increases when playing vs horde armies.
How am i suppose to play a psyker legion when a perils kills 20 to 40 points of my own models in my own phase when the effect of the power kills a single guard model at 3 pts?
hippyjr wrote:Ah... forgot about saving the reroll for perils
As for big spells, I was referring to death hex or dombolt. Something that is difficult to cast (WC8 or higher) but could have a key moment that decides a game. Off the top of my head I can think of removing papa G's invuln right before you hit him, or reducing the move of a nasty assault unit right before they hit your lines.
As an undivided player I've had at least a few moments where I needed a spell to go off (whether planned or in response to a sudden threat), and have it fail before my eyes and cost me heavily. If I could have at the time I would have loved for the chance to burn 2 CP and remove whatever mary sue character is making my life hell, as I find is often the case in 8th.
Agreed on the exalted aura though. But on the other hand rubric shooting would be even less effective, unless you take ahriman every game or tether a prince to your lines.
But what would make a clear distinction between daemon prince and exalted sorcerer! Want be a bit more shooty? go for a daemon prince. Want to focus a bitt more on psychic power ? Go for the exalted sorcerer!
Instead the daemon prince does everything better then an exalted sorcerer
the_scotsman wrote:
superbit415 wrote: Everyone keeps pointing out that the rubrics didn't get any stratagems of their own. Which is a valid criticism but I think whats a bigger issue is that we didn't get any new strategems that make for our psychic powers more reliable. We only have the one from Chapter Approve which gives one psyker a +2 for one power if they have two other psykers nearby. Not bad but i feel like we need more. For a psychic heavy army army I feel being able to manifest those powers is very important since in this edition you cant even try to manifest it again if you fail. They didn't even bother to put a simple re-roll failed psychic tests for 1 or 2 CP, which i would think is a no brainier for the thousands sons.
probably because you can already re-roll a failed psychic test for 1cp?
We've got three characters who get casting bonuses, a casting bonus warlord trait, some kind of thing as a relic (its bad, but it makes spells more reliable at least in theory) access to a free re-roll psychic power through daemons or DPs, a tzeentch stratagem that over half our casters can benefit from that allows rerolls of all psychic tests for being near daemon allies, and a one-use reroll of a psychic test on the shaman.
How many more would be acceptable here?
Ahriman21 wrote:I would (and have) roll 2 dice for an 8 spell if the spell was crucial. and if it WAS crucial, id suck the perils if it occurs.
that spell may be more important then 2-3 models or a few wounds.
with Ahriman ill usually run an exalted as another warlord, and a termie sorcerer for dang sure. +1 on most casts id toss out. at least with 2, and the termie sorcerer will generally only have 1 "must cast" spell.
The power fails to go off if the model casting it dies ..... And you would suck up the perils (assuming already you rolled at double 6 and not snake eyes)? how does that work?
Mind you i never said we should get immunity to perils. Just a reroll 1 on psychic tests. The same change they applied to magnus!
I think they should FAQ it so that when the psyker dies each unit except that of the psyker takes d3 mortal wounds. Because the Psyker unit already took mortal wounds from perils and remember mortal wounds spill over. I think when writing the rules they didn't give much thought to units containing psykers like the rubric and just assumed all psykers are single characters.
Yeah and this why i am annoyed with the codex. If i tell people i want to play a TS psychic legion. Everyone says go for it.. You have 18 powers, psykers everywhere its super good etc etc.
But when i talk about the risk of perils. People tell me: Oh but you should only cast spells when they are "high rewarding" .... ? So during a game i shouldn't be casting 12 out 18 powers because they might not be rewarding enough. Not because they are weak per se but because i cannot target anything "rewarding" enough?
The effect increases when playing vs horde armies.
How am i suppose to play a psyker legion when a perils kills 20 to 40 points of my own models in my own phase when the effect of the power kills a single guard model at 3 pts?
Crazy idea and all, but maybe you shouldn't use Smite when the target is a 4 point Guardsmen (there are no 3 point Guardsmen anymore)? Sorta like you shouldn't overload Plasma without a reroll to kill a 1 wound model with a 5+ save.
Yeah and this why i am annoyed with the codex. If i tell people i want to play a TS psychic legion. Everyone says go for it.. You have 18 powers, psykers everywhere its super good etc etc.
But when i talk about the risk of perils. People tell me: Oh but you should only cast spells when they are "high rewarding" .... ? So during a game i shouldn't be casting 12 out 18 powers because they might not be rewarding enough. Not because they are weak per se but because i cannot target anything "rewarding" enough?
The effect increases when playing vs horde armies.
How am i suppose to play a psyker legion when a perils kills 20 to 40 points of my own models in my own phase when the effect of the power kills a single guard model at 3 pts?
You perils 5.6% of the time. So once every 18 or so casts. The average game is what? 3 to 4 turns? So a unit will explode every 4.5 to 6 games. And that is without trying to prevent it and if you were able to cast every single turn.
Also if you're using mortal wounds on conscripts you're doing it wrong. Especially with an extra 6" and spells that don't have to target the nearest unit.
Yeah and this why i am annoyed with the codex. If i tell people i want to play a TS psychic legion. Everyone says go for it.. You have 18 powers, psykers everywhere its super good etc etc.
But when i talk about the risk of perils. People tell me: Oh but you should only cast spells when they are "high rewarding" .... ? So during a game i shouldn't be casting 12 out 18 powers because they might not be rewarding enough. Not because they are weak per se but because i cannot target anything "rewarding" enough?
The effect increases when playing vs horde armies.
How am i suppose to play a psyker legion when a perils kills 20 to 40 points of my own models in my own phase when the effect of the power kills a single guard model at 3 pts?
You perils 5.6% of the time. So once every 18 or so casts. The average game is what? 3 to 4 turns? So a unit will explode every 4.5 to 6 games. And that is without trying to prevent it and if you were able to cast every single turn.
Also if you're using mortal wounds on conscripts you're doing it wrong. Especially with an extra 6" and spells that don't have to target the nearest unit.
^this. Do I agree with Gw's bonkers decision to make psychic powers ONLY deal mortal wounds? Nooope, tbh I think we're already out of design space within these parameters - all you can allow within a reasonable number of warp charges are 1-3 mortals, with a cap of up to 6 in edge cases. We have spells like "firestorm" that seem like anti-horde abilities, but they're exactly like every other one...
But there's no reason you can't make use of mortal wound spells against guard or other horde armies. Use it to whack their force multiplier characters from range. Guard especially hate the combo of casting Gaze of Fate to set yourself up for a guaranteed reroll, then hitting a company commander or psyker with Gift of Chaos. 3+D3 mortal wounds kill most of the obnoxious little guard characters, then you can put a spawn down directly in combat with units they were next to.
Even if you don't want to get that fancy, Firestorm, Doombolt, Gift, and Gaze all can hit characters that would normally be protected from shooting attacks. Sure, you can't run an all psyker army without having bad matchups, just like you can't run an all-vehicle army or an all-infantry or an all-plasma gun army without having the same problems. But you can definitely create a solid, viable army with 12-15 psychic casts in it.
Yeah and this why i am annoyed with the codex. If i tell people i want to play a TS psychic legion. Everyone says go for it.. You have 18 powers, psykers everywhere its super good etc etc.
But when i talk about the risk of perils. People tell me: Oh but you should only cast spells when they are "high rewarding" .... ? So during a game i shouldn't be casting 12 out 18 powers because they might not be rewarding enough. Not because they are weak per se but because i cannot target anything "rewarding" enough?
The effect increases when playing vs horde armies.
How am i suppose to play a psyker legion when a perils kills 20 to 40 points of my own models in my own phase when the effect of the power kills a single guard model at 3 pts?
You perils 5.6% of the time. So once every 18 or so casts. The average game is what? 3 to 4 turns? So a unit will explode every 4.5 to 6 games. And that is without trying to prevent it and if you were able to cast every single turn.
Also if you're using mortal wounds on conscripts you're doing it wrong. Especially with an extra 6" and spells that don't have to target the nearest unit.
Yeah and this why i am annoyed with the codex. If i tell people i want to play a TS psychic legion. Everyone says go for it.. You have 18 powers, psykers everywhere its super good etc etc.
But when i talk about the risk of perils. People tell me: Oh but you should only cast spells when they are "high rewarding" .... ? So during a game i shouldn't be casting 12 out 18 powers because they might not be rewarding enough. Not because they are weak per se but because i cannot target anything "rewarding" enough?
The effect increases when playing vs horde armies.
How am i suppose to play a psyker legion when a perils kills 20 to 40 points of my own models in my own phase when the effect of the power kills a single guard model at 3 pts?
Crazy idea and all, but maybe you shouldn't use Smite when the target is a 4 point Guardsmen (there are no 3 point Guardsmen anymore)? Sorta like you shouldn't overload Plasma without a reroll to kill a 1 wound model with a 5+ save.
And both of you prove my point. Psychic phase is only an addendum to shooting/assault. As support tool for rest of the game. Not at all what was said/implemented with the release of the TS in the 7th edition.
If I had known they would make psykers units into support units for I would never started a TS army.
So yeah I feel cheated by GW in this. They got their money in 6 months and then killed it off. Go buy tzaangors to help with shooting/assault so you can what every other army does.
Apparently in the new codex there is no clarification or mention to what happens when an aspiring sorcerer from the Rubric marines squads or a scarab ocult sorcerer from the SOT suffers "perils of the warp".
I asked the question some months ago in the Rules question subforum and people could not agreed in to what happens, so it would need a clarification about it, but GW did not have answered or acknowledged this question.
Grey Knight squads have their own rule about this situation, stating that the full squad is the one that suffers 1D3 mortal wounds and it only spills if the squad is wiped out.
In the case of the TS squads, the punishment for "perils of the warp" is too hard. According to some interpretations, the sorcerer suffering perils... would die (so the squad would be useless in the psychic phase), then the power would fail, then the remaining wounds would spill on the squad of the dead sorcerer (as in case of the aspiring sorcerers, they have only 1 wound), and then it would spill 1D3 additional mortal wounds on every squad in 6" from the aspiring sorcerer, and that would include his own squad.
So a single rubric marine squad can potentially suffer 6 mortal wounds when trying to cast a psychic power, something that the squad is paying a premium in points to do, and something that is most of the time useless, or as i said, suicidal... It seems that GW just did not have in account the TS squads when they did the "perils..." rules, because to me is too punishing and too risky for too little reward. It is just bad design and a situation that is not well explained or covered in the rules, i don't think is fair to blame the players in this case.
I think we should contact GW and ask about this specific case to learn what to do in game and to see if they can give us a better rule (for example, the GK rule would be much much better), or if they can clarify it in any way in the FAQs.
I think we should contact GW and ask about this specific case to learn what to do in game and to see if they can give us a better rule (for example, the GK rule would be much much better), or if they can clarify it in any way in the FAQs.
Yeah and this why i am annoyed with the codex. If i tell people i want to play a TS psychic legion. Everyone says go for it.. You have 18 powers, psykers everywhere its super good etc etc.
But when i talk about the risk of perils. People tell me: Oh but you should only cast spells when they are "high rewarding" .... ? So during a game i shouldn't be casting 12 out 18 powers because they might not be rewarding enough. Not because they are weak per se but because i cannot target anything "rewarding" enough?
The effect increases when playing vs horde armies.
How am i suppose to play a psyker legion when a perils kills 20 to 40 points of my own models in my own phase when the effect of the power kills a single guard model at 3 pts?
You perils 5.6% of the time. So once every 18 or so casts. The average game is what? 3 to 4 turns? So a unit will explode every 4.5 to 6 games. And that is without trying to prevent it and if you were able to cast every single turn.
Also if you're using mortal wounds on conscripts you're doing it wrong. Especially with an extra 6" and spells that don't have to target the nearest unit.
Yeah and this why i am annoyed with the codex. If i tell people i want to play a TS psychic legion. Everyone says go for it.. You have 18 powers, psykers everywhere its super good etc etc.
But when i talk about the risk of perils. People tell me: Oh but you should only cast spells when they are "high rewarding" .... ? So during a game i shouldn't be casting 12 out 18 powers because they might not be rewarding enough. Not because they are weak per se but because i cannot target anything "rewarding" enough?
The effect increases when playing vs horde armies.
How am i suppose to play a psyker legion when a perils kills 20 to 40 points of my own models in my own phase when the effect of the power kills a single guard model at 3 pts?
Crazy idea and all, but maybe you shouldn't use Smite when the target is a 4 point Guardsmen (there are no 3 point Guardsmen anymore)? Sorta like you shouldn't overload Plasma without a reroll to kill a 1 wound model with a 5+ save.
And both of you prove my point. Psychic phase is only an addendum to shooting/assault. As support tool for rest of the game. Not at all what was said/implemented with the release of the TS in the 7th edition.
If I had known they would make psykers units into support units for I would never started a TS army.
So yeah I feel cheated by GW in this. They got their money in 6 months and then killed it off. Go buy tzaangors to help with shooting/assault so you can what every other army does.
Yeah, psychic powers were never a support tool for the rest of the game in 7th no sir. Everyone took the powers that allowed you to use your psykers as direct damage units and made their entire army out of psykers - Pyromancy powers, Smite, Doombolt - I can't count the number of times I passed up crap support powers like Invisibility, Iron Arm, Warp Speed and other garbage like that to get my psykers the offensive punch they needed.
And both of you prove my point. Psychic phase is only an addendum to shooting/assault. As support tool for rest of the game. Not at all what was said/implemented with the release of the TS in the 7th edition.
If I had known they would make psykers units into support units for I would never started a TS army.
So yeah I feel cheated by GW in this. They got their money in 6 months and then killed it off. Go buy tzaangors to help with shooting/assault so you can what every other army does.
Sure, 7th had a bunch of dakka spells and those were handy for weak units, but opponents could also stop them without being within 18". The phase is simply different and serves a different role. Now psykers handle the big stuff instead of being relegated to chaff clearing. It sounds like you want the psychic phase to be a shooting phase again.
Yeah, psychic powers were never a support tool for the rest of the game in 7th no sir. Everyone took the powers that allowed you to use your psykers as direct damage units and made their entire army out of psykers - Pyromancy powers, Smite, Doombolt - I can't count the number of times I passed up crap support powers like Invisibility, Iron Arm, Warp Speed and other garbage like that to get my psykers the offensive punch they needed.
Tell me how much support powers there was in the tzeentch and TS powers list. And yeah forgive me for trying to play a TS army as described in the fluff.
Or trying to make other powers work instead of trying to abuse the same OP ones every single game.
Daedalus81 wrote:
Sure, 7th had a bunch of dakka spells and those were handy for weak units, but opponents could also stop them without being within 18". The phase is simply different and serves a different role. Now psykers handle the big stuff instead of being relegated to chaff clearing. It sounds like you want the psychic phase to be a shooting phase again.
I've never said the 7th edition psychic phase wasn't full of flaws. But at least it allowed me to play TS as in the fluff.
Psychic phase was more then just shooting but yes for TS the psychic phase was their "shooting" phase
Yeah, psychic powers were never a support tool for the rest of the game in 7th no sir. Everyone took the powers that allowed you to use your psykers as direct damage units and made their entire army out of psykers - Pyromancy powers, Smite, Doombolt - I can't count the number of times I passed up crap support powers like Invisibility, Iron Arm, Warp Speed and other garbage like that to get my psykers the offensive punch they needed.
Tell me how much support powers there was in the tzeentch and TS powers list. And yeah forgive me for trying to play a TS army as described in the fluff.
Or trying to make other powers work instead of trying to abuse the same OP ones every single game.
Daedalus81 wrote:
Sure, 7th had a bunch of dakka spells and those were handy for weak units, but opponents could also stop them without being within 18". The phase is simply different and serves a different role. Now psykers handle the big stuff instead of being relegated to chaff clearing. It sounds like you want the psychic phase to be a shooting phase again.
I've never said the 7th edition psychic phase wasn't full of flaws. But at least it allowed me to play TS as in the fluff.
Psychic phase was more then just shooting but yes for TS the psychic phase was their "shooting" phase
You still seem focused on defining TS by some other factor that is not tied to the fluff. We ARE the army bringing the most psykers and flinging tons of spells with the most flexibility barring Eldar. The majority of armies out there bring one psyker or less.
As Ahriman says in the fluff; "Astartes first, Psykers second."
Also, when I'm piecing together an ork list I have to consciously think about adding psykers, when making a D-Angel list I often leave psykers out, when building a 1ksons list I end up with 6+(!!) by default. I think we still have quite a bit of psychic supremacy.
wana10 wrote: As Ahriman says in the fluff; "Astartes first, Psykers second."
Also, when I'm piecing together an ork list I have to consciously think about adding psykers, when making a D-Angel list I often leave psykers out, when building a 1ksons list I end up with 6+(!!) by default. I think we still have quite a bit of psychic supremacy.
Yes he says this PRE burning of Prospero. Thats the difference between 40k and 30k TS. In 30k they still use guns/cc weapons (See 30k TS tabletop). After transporting into the eye they focus solely on psychic powers. That's why only "the dead" rubrics are carrying guns now.
I will shut up now i dont want to keep this discussion solely on what I think but let me ask you: why do you play "thousand sons" when the goal is to super charge units to perform better in shooting/assault? Why not just play tau if you enjoy the shooting stuff or play khorne daemons if you like to murder in CC and have those stats baseline?
wana10 wrote: As Ahriman says in the fluff; "Astartes first, Psykers second."
Also, when I'm piecing together an ork list I have to consciously think about adding psykers, when making a D-Angel list I often leave psykers out, when building a 1ksons list I end up with 6+(!!) by default. I think we still have quite a bit of psychic supremacy.
Yes he says this PRE burning of Prospero. Thats the difference between 40k and 30k TS. In 30k they still use guns/cc weapons (See 30k TS tabletop). After transporting into the eye they focus solely on psychic powers. That's why only "the dead" rubrics are carrying guns now.
I will shut up now i dont want to keep this discussion solely on what I think but let me ask you: why do you play "thousand sons" when the goal is to super charge units to perform better in shooting/assault? Why not just play tau if you enjoy the shooting stuff or play khorne daemons if you like to murder in CC and have those stats baseline?
Historically (and currently in the case of Eldar) the answer to that question is because the psychic army was better at shooting than Tau* and/or better in cc than khorne daemons.
*Not a fair comparison I realise. Pretty much everyone, perhaps including khorne daemons if they put their minds to it, can outshoot Tau right now.
wana10 wrote: As Ahriman says in the fluff; "Astartes first, Psykers second."
Also, when I'm piecing together an ork list I have to consciously think about adding psykers, when making a D-Angel list I often leave psykers out, when building a 1ksons list I end up with 6+(!!) by default. I think we still have quite a bit of psychic supremacy.
Yes he says this PRE burning of Prospero. Thats the difference between 40k and 30k TS. In 30k they still use guns/cc weapons (See 30k TS tabletop). After transporting into the eye they focus solely on psychic powers. That's why only "the dead" rubrics are carrying guns now.
I will shut up now i dont want to keep this discussion solely on what I think but let me ask you: why do you play "thousand sons" when the goal is to super charge units to perform better in shooting/assault? Why not just play tau if you enjoy the shooting stuff or play khorne daemons if you like to murder in CC and have those stats baseline?
Isn't this the point of 4 of the 5 cults? The Pyrae were the exception rather than the norm. The Corvidae, Athanaen, Pavoni, and Raptora were all about manipulating events to better their martial abilities. Divine the future to know where to shoot before the enemy is there, throw up kine shields to prevent damage to your brethren from enemy attacks, increase your physical abilities to a razors edge to get over your opponents in battle, etc. The 1ksons aren't always going to be better than their enemy in whatever aspect of combat but when the situation calls for it they can use the psychic abilities to bridge the gap and surpass their enemy.
And I play 1ksons to kill Space Wolves.
Could someone please explain to me how you use the Vortex Beasts power?
From what I can see it's like this:
1: Roll higher than 1 on a D6 2:: Roll higher than 1 on a D6 3: Roll higher than 1 on a D6 4: Roll higher than 1 on a D6 5: Roll higher than 1 on a D6 6: Roll higher than 1 on a D6
Yep, each time you use a power, either randomly or choosing two, you need to roll a d6. If it's higher than the number listed, it's successful. If it's hurt, you need a 3 or even a 4 or higher to succeed.
nintura wrote: Yep, each time you use a power, either randomly or choosing two, you need to roll a d6. If it's higher than the number listed, it's successful. If it's hurt, you need a 3 or even a 4 or higher to succeed.
Oh, I'm paint retarder. Didn't see the bracket on the Damage table. It's determined by how many wounds the thing has left.
Yes he says this PRE burning of Prospero. Thats the difference between 40k and 30k TS. In 30k they still use guns/cc weapons (See 30k TS tabletop). After transporting into the eye they focus solely on psychic powers. That's why only "the dead" rubrics are carrying guns now.
And what do the sorcerers carry, in addition to their force weapons, including Ahriman? Why, the same bolt pistols that they used to carry as officers and squad sergeants, back in the days before the burning of Prospero. Sure, it's a relatively minor point, but factually, it's not just "the dead" rubrics who carry guns.
MadCowCrazy wrote: Could someone please explain to me how you use the Vortex Beasts power?
From what I can see it's like this: 1: Roll higher than 1 on a D6 2:: Roll higher than 1 on a D6 3: Roll higher than 1 on a D6 4: Roll higher than 1 on a D6 5: Roll higher than 1 on a D6 6: Roll higher than 1 on a D6
Before using the power that was chosen, you have to roll to see if it works. The roll required is on the wound table. 2+ at full health, 3+ at around half, 4+ at around a quarter. Then you can resolve the power.
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