The chapter tactic states increase range of powers by 6”
Gateway states
Identify Nearest enemy model “within” 12
That model and every (friend and foe) unit “within” 3 take d3 mortal wounds
The same word to describe distance is used for both so I’d say RAW it increases both!!
I would say it will be faq’d on the following Saturday so enjoy the week you can use it!
Put it on Magnus next to two tsons sorcerers and add +4 to the cast (rerolling 1,s) then roll 8+ to drop d6 mortal wounds to every unit in an 18 wide bubble!
My guess is that Brotherhood of Psykers let's you target the closest unit with Infernal Gateway at 18" instead of 12", because you add 6" to the range of your psychic powers.
What the psychic power does, however, wouldn't be affected, right? The effect of the power is just something the power does.. It's not the power.
Ugh. As a Death Guard player with 11 Spawn, that I've just replaced with Plague drones, Im extremely jelly of those Spawn themed Strategems. Pretty much exactly what I wanted for DG or CSM....
I vowed never to play Tzeentch... Well played.
Looks like I gotta add a Sorcerer to lead a small Spawn spam Outrider detachment.
I've decided to go with a Rogue Kson, who hates Magnus and is pro mutation.
Brometheus wrote: Magnus Aura: Re-roll 1s to hit and re-roll 1s for psychic tests
Ahriman Aura: Re-roll 1s to hit.
Ahriman Warlord Trait: +1 invul (so 3++ base)
Awesome stuff, thanks. Where'd you find this out?
Magnus' new aura basically means that psykers near him are only going to Peril on double 6s (the likelihood of rolling double 1s twice in a row is vanishingly small).
Brometheus wrote: Magnus Aura: Re-roll 1s to hit and re-roll 1s for psychic tests
Ahriman Aura: Re-roll 1s to hit.
Ahriman Warlord Trait: +1 invul (so 3++ base)
Awesome stuff, thanks. Where'd you find this out?
Magnus' new aura basically means that psykers near him are only going to Peril on double 6s (the likelihood of rolling double 1s twice in a row is vanishingly small).
Well at least we know what our perils mitigation is now.
demontalons wrote: There’s a chance Magnus aura is also a warlord trait. If the only perils mitigation is Magnus that would not help our aspiring sorcerors at all
I'll be upset if our perils mitigation is all tied to Magnus, as I don't really want to field him :/
nice 6" warp time them forward 14" drop a cp on them and pick the best mutation for the target and get a decent pool of attacks! i'v been finding them a surprising win in my DG army when they are running stock! easy to overlook they are -2 2dmg as standard and d6 attacks each which makes the re-roll even better on average (right?)
any TS list is defo gonna have a cheeky daemons batallion knocking about with brim horrors to rack up some CPs
demontalons wrote: There’s a chance Magnus aura is also a warlord trait. If the only perils mitigation is Magnus that would not help our aspiring sorcerors at all
I'll be upset if our perils mitigation is all tied to Magnus, as I don't really want to field him :/
The warlord trait for magnus is the "knows one more psychic power" (forgot the name). It was told/demonstrated by the Custodes vs TS stream last week.
So i doubt its a warlord trait. I still hope ahriman/exalted get this aura too. Would love to play without magnus sometimes without asking people to down tune lists.
Brometheus wrote: Magnus has the "know an additional power" warlord trait. It was on the twitch video
I don't know why they give unique units traits like this. So he knows an additional power. In addition to what? The number of powers your standard daemon primarch of Tzeentch knows?
another fun one with the deepstrike... 40 cultists XD massive conga line in front of the enemy warp time them then charge everything in the opponents army.
also going back the the mauler thing i said earlier, re-checked the index and they are in the list so odds are they will be a thing.
Brometheus wrote: Magnus has the "know an additional power" warlord trait. It was on the twitch video
I don't know why they give unique units traits like this. So he knows an additional power. In addition to what? The number of powers your standard daemon primarch of Tzeentch knows?
Brometheus wrote: Magnus has the "know an additional power" warlord trait. It was on the twitch video
I don't know why they give unique units traits like this. So he knows an additional power. In addition to what? The number of powers your standard daemon primarch of Tzeentch knows?
Magnus knows Smite, 3, and +1 because of trait.
Which of course is 1 more than all the other daemon primarchs of Tzeentch...
Magnus just has a specific warlord trait from the table. Any non-named character could get the additional spell known, but Magnus must take the additional spell known. I'm not really sure why this of all things is worth complaining about, it's the exact same deal as all the other named characters.
Arachnofiend wrote: Magnus just has a specific warlord trait from the table. Any non-named character could get the additional spell known, but Magnus must take the additional spell known. I'm not really sure why this of all things is worth complaining about, it's the exact same deal as all the other named characters.
No complaints about the +1 trait. My complaint is if only magnus has the re-roll phychic tests of 1 aura, and there aren't other ways to offset perils. It will effectively make him mandatory to run the army and have it really represent thousand sons. They should be more powerful casters than others even when they aren't standing near their primarch.
My query was at Abadabadoobaddon. I generally agree with you, though he's already not the only perils mitigation we have (a daemon prince can cast Gaze of Fate which gives us an extra CP re-roll for free) and we don't know what other options we have to mitigate perils. A stratagem that lets you pass perils damage to a nearby unit (maybe even friend or foe?) would be fun.
Not true, since you can still field CSM Sorcerers on Discs or Chaos Lords on Juggernauts.
Even though it's pointless since they don't get Legion Traits FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
I think you better read the Index again. The generic CSM Sorcerer on Disc has the faction keyword <LEGION>, and can be taken in a Thousand Sons list. So, yeah, it would get the legion trait.
Not true, since you can still field CSM Sorcerers on Discs or Chaos Lords on Juggernauts.
Even though it's pointless since they don't get Legion Traits FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
I think you better read the Index again. The generic CSM Sorcerer on Disc has the faction keyword <LEGION>, and can be taken in a Thousand Sons list. So, yeah, it would get the legion trait.
...feth, Legion traits only work on infantry and helbrutes. Unless we get a special exception where ours also work on cavalry our disc-riding sorcerers get nothing out of it.
Was there an update that made it wargear only? The original flow chart step one said that if the codex didn't have the datasheet use the index. It was step two that started breaking down unit upgrades and wargear.
Not true, since you can still field CSM Sorcerers on Discs or Chaos Lords on Juggernauts.
Even though it's pointless since they don't get Legion Traits FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
I think you better read the Index again. The generic CSM Sorcerer on Disc has the faction keyword <LEGION>, and can be taken in a Thousand Sons list. So, yeah, it would get the legion trait.
...feth, Legion traits only work on infantry and helbrutes. Unless we get a special exception where ours also work on cavalry our disc-riding sorcerers get nothing out of it.
Well for us they showed the actual piece in the book, it is a catch all for "all thousand sons psykers" as opposed to "infantr y and helbrutes only"
They showed the exact wording, as they did with other traits in the past so I dont *believe* thats a concern for us.
AwesomeSauceGaming wrote: Any news on whether aspiring sorcerers are full fledged or somehow handicapped? If they can each blast out a spell that would be amazing!
Brometheus wrote: Must know what Temporal Manipulation does! That thing sounds tasty
wc 6. 12" TS model. Heal D3 wound.
Huh. Well, that's a way to offset Perils.
xxhikaru, can you shed any insight on if there are any other additional units or wargear options? Are the vehicles the same as CSM, or are there any options like Helbrutes taking warpflamers or soulreapers?
Brometheus wrote: Must know what Temporal Manipulation does! That thing sounds tasty
wc 6. 12" TS model. Heal D3 wound.
Huh. Well, that's a way to offset Perils.
xxhikaru, can you shed any insight on if there are any other additional units or wargear options? Are the vehicles the same as CSM, or are there any options like Helbrutes taking warpflamers or soulreapers?
Brometheus wrote: Must know what Temporal Manipulation does! That thing sounds tasty
wc 6. 12" TS model. Heal D3 wound.
Huh. Well, that's a way to offset Perils.
xxhikaru, can you shed any insight on if there are any other additional units or wargear options? Are the vehicles the same as CSM, or are there any options like Helbrutes taking warpflamers or soulreapers?
Arachnofiend wrote: Magnus just has a specific warlord trait from the table. Any non-named character could get the additional spell known, but Magnus must take the additional spell known. I'm not really sure why this of all things is worth complaining about, it's the exact same deal as all the other named characters.
No complaints about the +1 trait. My complaint is if only magnus has the re-roll phychic tests of 1 aura, and there aren't other ways to offset perils. It will effectively make him mandatory to run the army and have it really represent thousand sons. They should be more powerful casters than others even when they aren't standing near their primarch.
Unless there is some sort of unknown stratagem or trait or relic that also help mitigate perils.
Assuming the d3 heal works on Magnus, it's good news, but as someone who goes to tournaments with Morty and Magnus and a Nurgle psyker to heal d3 wounds on Morty I can tell you it doesn't help too much to keep the models alive. Often they go down in 1 round of dedicated fire.
This will be especially true for Magnus now that he can't start on the board with -1 to hit and permanently lost reroll invuls of 1.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, is it true that Magnus went up in cost 30 points?
Virules wrote: Assuming the d3 heal works on Magnus, it's good news, but as someone who goes to tournaments with Morty and Magnus and a Nurgle psyker to heal d3 wounds on Morty I can tell you it doesn't help too much to keep the models alive. Often they go down in 1 round of dedicated fire.
This will be especially true for Magnus now that he can't start on the board with -1 to hit and permanently lost reroll invuls of 1.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, is it true that Magnus went up in cost 30 points?
So they make Magnus decidedly far weaker then jack up his points?
Are they just finished selling Magnus. Like the sales guy said "Ok we've made enough money off of him go ahead and destroy hi. Rules wise so they'll stop using him."
I still think that i'd rather run Ahriman then Magnus. And probably not as a warlord (as both of their fixed warlord traits really don't go that well with them)
Being a character with less than 10 wounds is just so much better than standing in the open for a turn while getting shot to bits...
thank you so much for the information so far!! If you don't mind, can you confirm what exactly the special powers (What kind of buffs and perhaps anything else?) the mutalith might do? Also, what does its cost look like?
thank you so much for the information so far!! If you don't mind, can you confirm what exactly the special powers (What kind of buffs and perhaps anything else?) the mutalith might do? Also, what does its cost look like?
Thanks!
He already said that i'ts around 150 pts . but nothing on its aura buff so far
Virules wrote: Assuming the d3 heal works on Magnus, it's good news, but as someone who goes to tournaments with Morty and Magnus and a Nurgle psyker to heal d3 wounds on Morty I can tell you it doesn't help too much to keep the models alive. Often they go down in 1 round of dedicated fire.
This will be especially true for Magnus now that he can't start on the board with -1 to hit and permanently lost reroll invuls of 1.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, is it true that Magnus went up in cost 30 points?
So they make Magnus decidedly far weaker then jack up his points?
Are they just finished selling Magnus. Like the sales guy said "Ok we've made enough money off of him go ahead and destroy hi. Rules wise so they'll stop using him."
Reece's view seems to counts for the most among playtesters from what I've heard, and he's been vocal on FLG that he doesn't like large single model units since it's not what he enjoys playing. He was very unhappy when Magnus gained the ability to boost to a 3++. So I am not surprised that Changeling, Brimstones, and Magnus got nerfed, and that it was FAQ's that you couldn't use Codex Daemons stratagems on Morty or Magnus before even seeing how it played out in the meta.
At the same time, the Eldar, Tyranid, and Astra Militarum codexes were outstanding, with very few dud units, relics, stratagems, etc. compared to other codexes (which have to rely on a handful of powerful units to be competitive...such as Morty and Magnus, hah). Also Reece's favorite armies and ones I am sure he was very involved in playtesting.
I think we kind of know the direction 8th has taken.
If someone has inside info on the codex why are they holding back!? =( Would like to know points costs for warpflamers/rubrics... Though if no point change but sorcerers don't cost extra then that might be good enough.
Virules wrote: Assuming the d3 heal works on Magnus, it's good news, but as someone who goes to tournaments with Morty and Magnus and a Nurgle psyker to heal d3 wounds on Morty I can tell you it doesn't help too much to keep the models alive. Often they go down in 1 round of dedicated fire.
This will be especially true for Magnus now that he can't start on the board with -1 to hit and permanently lost reroll invuls of 1.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, is it true that Magnus went up in cost 30 points?
So they make Magnus decidedly far weaker then jack up his points?
Are they just finished selling Magnus. Like the sales guy said "Ok we've made enough money off of him go ahead and destroy hi. Rules wise so they'll stop using him."
What I think you'll find is that people have been abusing Magnus/Morty/Roboute in smaller scale games, perhaps <2kish in size and they really don't belong in games that small. What's the best way to mitigate that? It's to strike the right balance between survivability, dps and target choice. In games of 2k, it's unlikely your opponent is going to have much more a juicy target than a primarch, meaning they go down in one or two turns from concentrated fire because they're usually the only real obvious threat and a quarter of your points so you'd have to pull something wonderful out of the bag to convince your opponent otherwise. A larger game though? When you'll have a much more balanced force? With more target choice and maybe even another LOW or a mosh pit with Abaddon or Marneus at the core? More support to make the primarch survivable (daemon units with changeling) Suddenly that lone Primarch may not be the biggest thing to look for.
It seems to me that this is much more a case of GW still listening and actually trying to discourage people from having all-your-eggs units in smaller games, which fits in the meta too. These guys are really only meant to be at the head of great hosts in a general sense, so having them show up at the fore of a poxy warband is a bit ott.
OR maybe it's just fudged rules that they'll hopefully address in chapter approved.
As someone who uses the exact same ability for Tzeentch Daemon Wizards in Age of Sigmar, granting re-roll 1s on psychic tests in 40K is incredible, especially once you factor in any casting bonuses you might have. It's actually even better in 40K because there is no Perils mechanic in Age of Sigmar, whereas there obviously is in 40K.
As much as removing the re-roll 1s for invulnerable saves hurts Magnus a lot competitively with how he's traditionally used in competitive lists, this new aura makes him way better at supporting actual Thousand Sons armies which is preferable to me. I dislike him acting like a ballistic missile when he should be anchoring a Thousand Sons force, blasting out his powers then supporting his warriors up close. Less competitive? Probably. More fitting to the lore? Definitely.
Besides, technically he can still get that 6+ Feel No Pain and -1 to-hit he used to have, just in different ways. The Changeling gives Tzeentch Daemons the 6++, and a Thousand Sons psyker can cast Glamour on Magnus as long as you get first turn or he survives the enemy first turn. It'd mean he wouldn't be barrelling straight into the enemy lines but it's still some measure of durability, especially as Weaver of Fates is still around. The increased range of psychic powers for Thousand Sons means Magnus sitting back a bit at least for a few turns and giving those auras to your little guys while absorbing firepower might not be a terrible idea, especially now that we know there's a healing power too. Those sniping powers are going to be brutal on Magnus and/or Ahriman.
Side-note, re-roll 1s to-hit aura for Ahriman? Yes please and thank you, it'll be a damned god-send for us. Is that replacing our re-roll 1s for invulnerable saves aura on Exalteds, or is it an additional aura on Ahriman? I'm sure I've probably missed where this was clarified if it has been yet, if not, never mind.
Virules wrote: Assuming the d3 heal works on Magnus, it's good news, but as someone who goes to tournaments with Morty and Magnus and a Nurgle psyker to heal d3 wounds on Morty I can tell you it doesn't help too much to keep the models alive. Often they go down in 1 round of dedicated fire.
This will be especially true for Magnus now that he can't start on the board with -1 to hit and permanently lost reroll invuls of 1.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, is it true that Magnus went up in cost 30 points?
So they make Magnus decidedly far weaker then jack up his points?
Are they just finished selling Magnus. Like the sales guy said "Ok we've made enough money off of him go ahead and destroy hi. Rules wise so they'll stop using him."
What I think you'll find is that people have been abusing Magnus/Morty/Roboute in smaller scale games, perhaps <2kish in size and they really don't belong in games that small. What's the best way to mitigate that? It's to strike the right balance between survivability, dps and target choice. In games of 2k, it's unlikely your opponent is going to have much more a juicy target than a primarch, meaning they go down in one or two turns from concentrated fire because they're usually the only real obvious threat and a quarter of your points so you'd have to pull something wonderful out of the bag to convince your opponent otherwise. A larger game though? When you'll have a much more balanced force? With more target choice and maybe even another LOW or a mosh pit with Abaddon or Marneus at the core? More support to make the primarch survivable (daemon units with changeling) Suddenly that lone Primarch may not be the biggest thing to look for.
It seems to me that this is much more a case of GW still listening and actually trying to discourage people from having all-your-eggs units in smaller games, which fits in the meta too. These guys are really only meant to be at the head of great hosts in a general sense, so having them show up at the fore of a poxy warband is a bit ott.
OR maybe it's just fudged rules that they'll hopefully address in chapter approved.
Honestly, lately I was more and more sticking to the idea of only having chaff as a viable target of enemy shooting in the beginning of the game. Got some dark angels and blood angels to support my guard: guard blob up around an inquisitor to give them Ld10 (greyfax, but probably will be replaced with the custodes guy), and the rest of the army is and librarian dreadnought, death company captain, Sammael and two talonmaster landspeeders sitting behind guard shooting stuff and being untargettable (characters) as well as deep striking blood angels/dark angel units.
Works really well, as it completely neutralises any alpha strike that the opponent has, and in the local meta there are a lot of alphastrike armies...
I'm really thinking of restructuring my thousand sons list to work in the same way.
Virules wrote: Reece's view seems to counts for the most among playtesters from what I've heard, and he's been vocal on FLG that he doesn't like large single model units since it's not what he enjoys playing. He was very unhappy when Magnus gained the ability to boost to a 3++. So I am not surprised that Changeling, Brimstones, and Magnus got nerfed, and that it was FAQ's that you couldn't use Codex Daemons stratagems on Morty or Magnus before even seeing how it played out in the meta.
At the same time, the Eldar, Tyranid, and Astra Militarum codexes were outstanding, with very few dud units, relics, stratagems, etc. compared to other codexes (which have to rely on a handful of powerful units to be competitive...such as Morty and Magnus, hah). Also Reece's favorite armies and ones I am sure he was very involved in playtesting.
I see people found new strawman to place all the blame on
Surely it's the fault of a single playtester. It can't be fault of Phil Kelly, an incompetent rules writer who made his pet Eldar borderline OP to utterly broken for what, 4-5 editions in a row now? It can't be Cruddace, fan of IG, father of infamous leaf-blower in 5th, who was involved with IG in 8th, who buffed them. No, whole GW strategy, rules, and design directions are dictated by a single playtester. Despite us hearing multiple voices before there would be a lot less problems with 8th as playtesters pointed them out but Kelly/Cruddace ignored 95% of their findings. No, it must be Reece, because he wrote article in WC, thus he is the fiend behind the throne!
Semper wrote: What I think you'll find is that people have been abusing Magnus/Morty/Roboute in smaller scale games, perhaps <2kish in size and they really don't belong in games that small. What's the best way to mitigate that? It's to strike the right balance between survivability, dps and target choice. In games of 2k, it's unlikely your opponent is going to have much more a juicy target than a primarch, meaning they go down in one or two turns from concentrated fire because they're usually the only real obvious threat and a quarter of your points so you'd have to pull something wonderful out of the bag to convince your opponent otherwise. A larger game though? When you'll have a much more balanced force? With more target choice and maybe even another LOW or a mosh pit with Abaddon or Marneus at the core? More support to make the primarch survivable (daemon units with changeling) Suddenly that lone Primarch may not be the biggest thing to look for.
Naah, didn't you get the memo? It's not GW trying to make the game more balanced. It's not GW trying to make armies more fluffy/discourage soups and superfriending. It's not GW trying to correct worst abuses even if it would theoretically cost them some sales in an effort to make a better game. It's a single playtester hating big blue models
Caederes wrote: As someone who uses the exact same ability for Tzeentch Daemon Wizards in Age of Sigmar, granting re-roll 1s on psychic tests in 40K is incredible, especially once you factor in any casting bonuses you might have. It's actually even better in 40K because there is no Perils mechanic in Age of Sigmar, whereas there obviously is in 40K.
Yeah, Magnus looks even stronger/fluffier now, for the same points, unlike RG who was nerfed. He can deal more damage, could potentially be tankier, though might require more finesse and no longer be autoplay model he is now - but I guess him not being able to tank zillion hits effortlessly for no reason makes him worthless somehow. To people who, in the same breath, complain about other armies being too OP. The irony...
Virules wrote: Reece's view seems to counts for the most among playtesters from what I've heard, and he's been vocal on FLG that he doesn't like large single model units since it's not what he enjoys playing. He was very unhappy when Magnus gained the ability to boost to a 3++. So I am not surprised that Changeling, Brimstones, and Magnus got nerfed, and that it was FAQ's that you couldn't use Codex Daemons stratagems on Morty or Magnus before even seeing how it played out in the meta.
At the same time, the Eldar, Tyranid, and Astra Militarum codexes were outstanding, with very few dud units, relics, stratagems, etc. compared to other codexes (which have to rely on a handful of powerful units to be competitive...such as Morty and Magnus, hah). Also Reece's favorite armies and ones I am sure he was very involved in playtesting.
I see people found new strawman to place all the blame on
Surely it's the fault of a single playtester. It can't be fault of Phil Kelly, an incompetent rules writer who made his pet Eldar borderline OP to utterly broken for what, 4-5 editions in a row now? It can't be Cruddace, fan of IG, father of infamous leaf-blower in 5th, who was involved with IG in 8th, who buffed them. No, whole GW strategy, rules, and design directions are dictated by a single playtester. Despite us hearing multiple voices before there would be a lot less problems with 8th as playtesters pointed them out but Kelly/Cruddace ignored 95% of their findings. No, it must be Reece, because he wrote article in WC, thus he is the fiend behind the throne!
Semper wrote: What I think you'll find is that people have been abusing Magnus/Morty/Roboute in smaller scale games, perhaps <2kish in size and they really don't belong in games that small. What's the best way to mitigate that? It's to strike the right balance between survivability, dps and target choice. In games of 2k, it's unlikely your opponent is going to have much more a juicy target than a primarch, meaning they go down in one or two turns from concentrated fire because they're usually the only real obvious threat and a quarter of your points so you'd have to pull something wonderful out of the bag to convince your opponent otherwise. A larger game though? When you'll have a much more balanced force? With more target choice and maybe even another LOW or a mosh pit with Abaddon or Marneus at the core? More support to make the primarch survivable (daemon units with changeling) Suddenly that lone Primarch may not be the biggest thing to look for.
Naah, didn't you get the memo? It's not GW trying to make the game more balanced. It's not GW trying to make armies more fluffy/discourage soups and superfriending. It's not GW trying to correct worst abuses even if it would theoretically cost them some sales in an effort to make a better game. It's a single playtester hating big blue models
Caederes wrote: As someone who uses the exact same ability for Tzeentch Daemon Wizards in Age of Sigmar, granting re-roll 1s on psychic tests in 40K is incredible, especially once you factor in any casting bonuses you might have. It's actually even better in 40K because there is no Perils mechanic in Age of Sigmar, whereas there obviously is in 40K.
Yeah, Magnus looks even stronger/fluffier now, for the same points, unlike RG who was nerfed. He can deal more damage, could potentially be tankier, though might require more finesse and no longer be autoplay model he is now - but I guess him not being able to tank zillion hits effortlessly for no reason makes him worthless somehow. To people who, in the same breath, complain about other armies being too OP. The irony...
lol, Magnus is an autoplay model now? I don't think he is that great even if the deep strike stratagem wasn't FAQd. There was less and less primarchs on the table at tournaments for the past several months, as they are just a liability a lot of the time.
These changes to Magnus rendered him Apocalypse only for me, same as the lords of change and the big birdy, they are just a quarter of the army that you are giving away to the alpha strike. No thanks, I'd rather the opponent shot chaff for a turn before i beta strike, then have all the fire concentrated on one centrepiece model.
Edit: oh, and he is apparently getting 30 point increase too. So yeah, more finesse = leaving on the shelf in this case.
hhhdan wrote: lol, Magnus is an autoplay model now? I don't think he is that great even if the deep strike stratagem wasn't FAQd. There was less and less primarchs on the table at tournaments for the past several months, as they are just a liability a lot of the time.
These changes to Magnus rendered him Apocalypse only for me, same as the lords of change and the big birdy, they are just a quarter of the army that you are giving away to the alpha strike. No thanks, I'd rather the opponent shot chaff for a turn before i beta strike, then have all the fire concentrated on one centrepiece model.
If he 'wasn't that great' he wouldn't be found together with Morty in vast majority of Chaos comp armies, especially after Malefic nerf. Maybe that changed after CD book dropped, I didn't pay attention recently, but I'd hardly call something spammed in major tournaments 'bad'. And yes, he was autoplay, with that absurd save you could plop him anywhere you wanted utterly ignoring positioning, LOS, enemy units, etc etc boring details, as only the hardest of the hard armies had any chance to do anything but tickle him even with whole army focused solely on Magnus.
As for alpha strike, what's bubblewrap/positioning? This is exactly what I meant by finesse/autoplay, I find it funny one of the best protected (still) models in game and one of the deadliest is now somehow suddenly worthless now that you actually need to buff him slightly to his old, absurd levels of effortlessly taking everything with his bare chest...
hhhdan wrote: lol, Magnus is an autoplay model now? I don't think he is that great even if the deep strike stratagem wasn't FAQd. There was less and less primarchs on the table at tournaments for the past several months, as they are just a liability a lot of the time.
These changes to Magnus rendered him Apocalypse only for me, same as the lords of change and the big birdy, they are just a quarter of the army that you are giving away to the alpha strike. No thanks, I'd rather the opponent shot chaff for a turn before i beta strike, then have all the fire concentrated on one centrepiece model.
If he 'wasn't that great' he wouldn't be found together with Morty in vast majority of Chaos comp armies, especially after Malefic nerf. Maybe that changed after CD book dropped, I didn't pay attention recently, but I'd hardly call something spammed in major tournaments 'bad'. And yes, he was autoplay, with that absurd save you could plop him anywhere you wanted utterly ignoring positioning, LOS, enemy units, etc etc boring details, as only the hardest of the hard armies had any chance to do anything but tickle him even with whole army focused solely on Magnus.
As for alpha strike, what's bubblewrap/positioning? This is exactly what I meant by finesse/autoplay, I find it funny one of the best protected (still) models in game and one of the deadliest is now somehow suddenly worthless now that you actually need to buff him slightly to his old, absurd levels of effortlessly taking everything with his bare chest...
As I said, maybe in September or October he was an Autopick with the spam of bash bro lists, but recently it's either just Morty or no primarchs that is top tier. Magnus just isn't pulling the weight and good alpha strike lists can kill one or even both of them turn one. And the one that is killed first is Magnus, as he has warptime. So having a sorcerer and Morty is more reliable.
I wasn't talking about things that deep strike close and fire meltas or something. I don't think that bubblewrap or positioning will help you against a spam of leman russ/artillery/dark reapers/etc that delete him turn 1 every single time if they go first. The finesse is out the window vs alpha strike gunlines. He is neither one of the best protected nor the deadliest. You can make other units as tough or tougher than him (2++ ogryns/barrier+nightshield baneblade/buffed up shining spears/even warp surge pink horrors+split/etc.) and other units are much more reliable at doing the smashing (bloodletter bomb being a prime example of the really strong unit that is incredibly realiable and does ridiculous amount of damage for the points + can deep strike, so untargettable barring the interceptor stratagems).
So yes, i will take Ahriman and be happy with my untargettable psychic buffing machine and take a bloodletter bomb or tzaangor bomb to be the in your face threat to the enemy, all while both being untargettable to the alpha strike (deep strike or character) all for less points than Magnus is now, even without the 30 pts increase that he got in the codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: The LoC is more like a 1/6 of your army, and is damn tanky when equipped with robes and the incorporeal WT...
I feel like daemonspark is a must take warlord trait, and taking -1 damage WT would prevent that... Also, yeah he is tanky with a 3++, but he still does not really pull the weight, when you can take almost 4 exalted flamers for the points or almost 2 princes
I see people found new strawman to place all the blame on
Surely it's the fault of a single playtester. It can't be fault of Phil Kelly, an incompetent rules writer who made his pet Eldar borderline OP to utterly broken for what, 4-5 editions in a row now? It can't be Cruddace, fan of IG, father of infamous leaf-blower in 5th, who was involved with IG in 8th, who buffed them. No, whole GW strategy, rules, and design directions are dictated by a single playtester. Despite us hearing multiple voices before there would be a lot less problems with 8th as playtesters pointed them out but Kelly/Cruddace ignored 95% of their findings. No, it must be Reece, because he wrote article in WC, thus he is the fiend behind the throne! .
Maybe you can avoid your own strawman, Kelly hasn't been in rules writing for the last couple of years from what I can tell and has been far more involved with fluff instead. And since James Hewitt's AMA on reddit we pretty much already know that it was Alan Merritt who was responsible for the 7th ed Eldar codex being broken as F... more than anyone who was actually involved with writing it.
Virules wrote: Assuming the d3 heal works on Magnus, it's good news, but as someone who goes to tournaments with Morty and Magnus and a Nurgle psyker to heal d3 wounds on Morty I can tell you it doesn't help too much to keep the models alive. Often they go down in 1 round of dedicated fire.
This will be especially true for Magnus now that he can't start on the board with -1 to hit and permanently lost reroll invuls of 1.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, is it true that Magnus went up in cost 30 points?
So they make Magnus decidedly far weaker then jack up his points?
Are they just finished selling Magnus. Like the sales guy said "Ok we've made enough money off of him go ahead and destroy hi. Rules wise so they'll stop using him."
Reece's view seems to counts for the most among playtesters from what I've heard, and he's been vocal on FLG that he doesn't like large single model units since it's not what he enjoys playing. He was very unhappy when Magnus gained the ability to boost to a 3++. So I am not surprised that Changeling, Brimstones, and Magnus got nerfed, and that it was FAQ's that you couldn't use Codex Daemons stratagems on Morty or Magnus before even seeing how it played out in the meta.
At the same time, the Eldar, Tyranid, and Astra Militarum codexes were outstanding, with very few dud units, relics, stratagems, etc. compared to other codexes (which have to rely on a handful of powerful units to be competitive...such as Morty and Magnus, hah). Also Reece's favorite armies and ones I am sure he was very involved in playtesting.
I think we kind of know the direction 8th has taken.
yeah it sucks when HQs, LoWs, and the bad guys get 3++ but imperials can get them all the time.
hhhdan wrote: There was less and less primarchs on the table at tournaments for the past several months, as they are just a liability a lot of the time.
hhhdan wrote: There was less and less primarchs on the table at tournaments for the past several months, as they are just a liability a lot of the time.
So for the entirety of this edition?
several months < 2/3 of a year.
I'd say that the peak of primarch popularity was around the death guard release: first tournaments post the codex release. After that the popularity was going down all the time.
Not gonna lie I hear a lot of whining about how Magnus isn’t worth taking now etc etc. if tournament players won’t adapt to the fact that GW is going to fix super efficient units and make them either less efficient in game terms or point terms then they are in for a rough couple of years.
You think obliterators and dark reapers aren’t going to get a change next CA?
Yes They took away Magnus reroll 1s ability on saves. Yes he probably would die turn 1 to an alpha strike in a 2k army dedicated to alpha striking. GW has 2 options, debuff him to the point he doesn’t feel like. Aprimarch anymore or buff him to where he does but have his points be so much that he only gets played in apoc size games (where I feel he should be with most super heavies etc)
demontalons wrote: Not gonna lie I hear a lot of whining about how Magnus isn’t worth taking now etc etc. if tournament players won’t adapt to the fact that GW is going to fix super efficient units and make them either less efficient in game terms or point terms then they are in for a rough couple of years.
You think obliterators and dark reapers aren’t going to get a change next CA?
Yes They took away Magnus reroll 1s ability on saves. Yes he probably would die turn 1 to an alpha strike in a 2k army dedicated to alpha striking. GW has 2 options, debuff him to the point he doesn’t feel like. Aprimarch anymore or buff him to where he does but have his points be so much that he only gets played in apoc size games (where I feel he should be with most super heavies etc)
Not sure if anyone was whining here, I was simply pointing out that Primarchs aren't very competitive anymore and there are (much) better options to people who were saying that they were totally OP and autopick and now they will be balanced.
change is part of the game (And honestly between the codex:tzaangor whining and 'oh no magnus is nerfed', it seems that a lot of people forgot that tzeentch is the god of CHANGE )
Hopefully dark reapers, obliterators and punisher russes will be nerfed soon too.
Virules wrote: Assuming the d3 heal works on Magnus, it's good news, but as someone who goes to tournaments with Morty and Magnus and a Nurgle psyker to heal d3 wounds on Morty I can tell you it doesn't help too much to keep the models alive. Often they go down in 1 round of dedicated fire.
This will be especially true for Magnus now that he can't start on the board with -1 to hit and permanently lost reroll invuls of 1.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, is it true that Magnus went up in cost 30 points?
So they make Magnus decidedly far weaker then jack up his points?
Are they just finished selling Magnus. Like the sales guy said "Ok we've made enough money off of him go ahead and destroy hi. Rules wise so they'll stop using him."
Reece's view seems to counts for the most among playtesters from what I've heard, and he's been vocal on FLG that he doesn't like large single model units since it's not what he enjoys playing. He was very unhappy when Magnus gained the ability to boost to a 3++. So I am not surprised that Changeling, Brimstones, and Magnus got nerfed, and that it was FAQ's that you couldn't use Codex Daemons stratagems on Morty or Magnus before even seeing how it played out in the meta.
At the same time, the Eldar, Tyranid, and Astra Militarum codexes were outstanding, with very few dud units, relics, stratagems, etc. compared to other codexes (which have to rely on a handful of powerful units to be competitive...such as Morty and Magnus, hah). Also Reece's favorite armies and ones I am sure he was very involved in playtesting.
I think we kind of know the direction 8th has taken.
Oh so we have found our new bogeyman? I'm glad, Matt Ward was a little old at this point.
Be honest guys, Magnus, Mortarion and Guilliman are some of the most OP models in the game. They aren't as busted as Dark Reapers because you can only have 1 of each in your army. But they are keeping down their own armies. You can buff DG, TS and Space Marines when they have those powerhouses in the form of their primarchs, without making the whole army completely busted. Specially Guilliman with his inmense buffing potential.
People has been so reliant in Primarchs that they panic to see them nerfed. And I can understand that, in some way Dark Angels are in the same boat with Azrael. But even Azrael is OP, he should cost 25-30 points more for what he does. And that would open the possibility of running other character as your warlord. Right now, is Azrael or Sammael if you are running Ravenwing.
And I find funny how people complained to no end about LOW being mandatory, how they don't belong in normal games, and now that they are making LOW harder to use in 2k point games and not an auto include people complain again (Yeah yeah different people have different opinions, I'm just talking about the general trend. And I say complain, not whining, I'm not insulting anyone!)
Virules wrote: Assuming the d3 heal works on Magnus, it's good news, but as someone who goes to tournaments with Morty and Magnus and a Nurgle psyker to heal d3 wounds on Morty I can tell you it doesn't help too much to keep the models alive. Often they go down in 1 round of dedicated fire.
This will be especially true for Magnus now that he can't start on the board with -1 to hit and permanently lost reroll invuls of 1.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, is it true that Magnus went up in cost 30 points?
So they make Magnus decidedly far weaker then jack up his points?
Are they just finished selling Magnus. Like the sales guy said "Ok we've made enough money off of him go ahead and destroy hi. Rules wise so they'll stop using him."
Reece's view seems to counts for the most among playtesters from what I've heard, and he's been vocal on FLG that he doesn't like large single model units since it's not what he enjoys playing. He was very unhappy when Magnus gained the ability to boost to a 3++. So I am not surprised that Changeling, Brimstones, and Magnus got nerfed, and that it was FAQ's that you couldn't use Codex Daemons stratagems on Morty or Magnus before even seeing how it played out in the meta.
At the same time, the Eldar, Tyranid, and Astra Militarum codexes were outstanding, with very few dud units, relics, stratagems, etc. compared to other codexes (which have to rely on a handful of powerful units to be competitive...such as Morty and Magnus, hah). Also Reece's favorite armies and ones I am sure he was very involved in playtesting.
I think we kind of know the direction 8th has taken.
Oh so we have found our new bogeyman? I'm glad, Matt Ward was a little old at this point.
Be honest guys, Magnus, Mortarion and Guilliman are some of the most OP models in the game. They aren't as busted as Dark Reapers because you can only have 1 of each in your army. But they are keeping down their own armies. You can buff DG, TS and Space Marines when they have those powerhouses in the form of their primarchs, without making the whole army completely busted. Specially Guilliman with his inmense buffing potential.
People has been so reliant in Primarchs that they panic to see them nerfed. And I can understand that, in some way Dark Angels are in the same boat with Azrael. But even Azrael is OP, he should cost 25-30 points more for what he does. And that would open the possibility of running other character as your warlord. Right now, is Azrael or Sammael if you are running Ravenwing.
And I find funny how people complained to no end about LOW being mandatory, how they don't belong in normal games, and now that they are making LOW harder to use in 2k point games and not an auto include people complain again (Yeah yeah different people have different opinions, I'm just talking about the general trend. And I say complain, not whining, I'm not insulting anyone!)
This is simply not true. Neither Magnus nor Guilliman lists are top tier at the moment. Mortarion can be, but there are better builds still. They are a crutch unit for midtables max... Azrael is not great anymore, as he only buffs infantry. I switched to Sammael + 2 Talonmasters (and might get more of them). they are incredibly strong at the moment, not sure if top tier, but close to it. Plasma inceptors are another really strong unit for dark angels, just because of the deep strike + plasma stratagem they are better than black knights.
Edit: Marines have other strong builds that can be better than Guilliman. E.g. Lias Issodon beta strike list.
SilverAlien wrote: Yeah, I honestly never felt Morty was that essential to my list, was never sure if i wasn't using him correctly or if he was just over-hyped.
The poxwalker factory is a stronger list for death guard by far in my opinion. typhus + 150 cultists or plaguebearers + 60 poxwalkers and then buff one of the squads with cloud of flies and dead walk again. It is ridiculous to play against, especially because that is only a 1/3 of the list...
Virules wrote: Assuming the d3 heal works on Magnus, it's good news, but as someone who goes to tournaments with Morty and Magnus and a Nurgle psyker to heal d3 wounds on Morty I can tell you it doesn't help too much to keep the models alive. Often they go down in 1 round of dedicated fire.
This will be especially true for Magnus now that he can't start on the board with -1 to hit and permanently lost reroll invuls of 1.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, is it true that Magnus went up in cost 30 points?
So they make Magnus decidedly far weaker then jack up his points?
Are they just finished selling Magnus. Like the sales guy said "Ok we've made enough money off of him go ahead and destroy hi. Rules wise so they'll stop using him."
Reece's view seems to counts for the most among playtesters from what I've heard, and he's been vocal on FLG that he doesn't like large single model units since it's not what he enjoys playing. He was very unhappy when Magnus gained the ability to boost to a 3++. So I am not surprised that Changeling, Brimstones, and Magnus got nerfed, and that it was FAQ's that you couldn't use Codex Daemons stratagems on Morty or Magnus before even seeing how it played out in the meta.
At the same time, the Eldar, Tyranid, and Astra Militarum codexes were outstanding, with very few dud units, relics, stratagems, etc. compared to other codexes (which have to rely on a handful of powerful units to be competitive...such as Morty and Magnus, hah). Also Reece's favorite armies and ones I am sure he was very involved in playtesting.
I think we kind of know the direction 8th has taken.
Oh so we have found our new bogeyman? I'm glad, Matt Ward was a little old at this point.
Be honest guys, Magnus, Mortarion and Guilliman are some of the most OP models in the game. They aren't as busted as Dark Reapers because you can only have 1 of each in your army. But they are keeping down their own armies. You can buff DG, TS and Space Marines when they have those powerhouses in the form of their primarchs, without making the whole army completely busted. Specially Guilliman with his inmense buffing potential.
People has been so reliant in Primarchs that they panic to see them nerfed. And I can understand that, in some way Dark Angels are in the same boat with Azrael. But even Azrael is OP, he should cost 25-30 points more for what he does. And that would open the possibility of running other character as your warlord. Right now, is Azrael or Sammael if you are running Ravenwing.
And I find funny how people complained to no end about LOW being mandatory, how they don't belong in normal games, and now that they are making LOW harder to use in 2k point games and not an auto include people complain again (Yeah yeah different people have different opinions, I'm just talking about the general trend. And I say complain, not whining, I'm not insulting anyone!)
This is simply not true. Neither Magnus nor Guilliman lists are top tier at the moment. Mortarion can be, but there are better builds still. They are a crutch unit for midtables max... Azrael is not great anymore, as he only buffs infantry. I switched to Sammael + 2 Talonmasters (and might get more of them). they are incredibly strong at the moment, not sure if top tier, but close to it. Plasma inceptors are another really strong unit for dark angels, just because of the deep strike + plasma stratagem they are better than black knights.
Edit: Marines have other strong builds that can be better than Guilliman. E.g. Lias Issodon beta strike list.
You have it backwards. Guillimand and Azrael are INSANE. Whats keep them down is that they are a Space Marine LOW and HQ, so they buff Space Marines units (And infantry in the case of Azrael). And that was exactly my point. You can't make powerfull or even balanced Space Marine units keeping Azrael or Guilliman as they are now because they'll become totally busted. When you have a one-trick pony army you need to nerf the piece that makes the army competitive, and buff the rest, of course.
I'm not saying "Guilliman OP, nerf them". I'm saying "Guilliman is OP, nerf him, buff nearly the rest of the codex".
And one list doesn't need to be top tier to be OP and overly strong. Tau wheren't TOP tier in 7th. But they where a very strong Tier 2 army below Ynnari, Eldar and Daemons.
EDIT: Of course all of this is my opinion, I'm not even that great of a player, so take all of this as you want. I don't think in any shape or form that I have the absolute truth.
Virules wrote: Assuming the d3 heal works on Magnus, it's good news, but as someone who goes to tournaments with Morty and Magnus and a Nurgle psyker to heal d3 wounds on Morty I can tell you it doesn't help too much to keep the models alive. Often they go down in 1 round of dedicated fire.
This will be especially true for Magnus now that he can't start on the board with -1 to hit and permanently lost reroll invuls of 1.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, is it true that Magnus went up in cost 30 points?
So they make Magnus decidedly far weaker then jack up his points?
Are they just finished selling Magnus. Like the sales guy said "Ok we've made enough money off of him go ahead and destroy hi. Rules wise so they'll stop using him."
Reece's view seems to counts for the most among playtesters from what I've heard, and he's been vocal on FLG that he doesn't like large single model units since it's not what he enjoys playing. He was very unhappy when Magnus gained the ability to boost to a 3++. So I am not surprised that Changeling, Brimstones, and Magnus got nerfed, and that it was FAQ's that you couldn't use Codex Daemons stratagems on Morty or Magnus before even seeing how it played out in the meta.
At the same time, the Eldar, Tyranid, and Astra Militarum codexes were outstanding, with very few dud units, relics, stratagems, etc. compared to other codexes (which have to rely on a handful of powerful units to be competitive...such as Morty and Magnus, hah). Also Reece's favorite armies and ones I am sure he was very involved in playtesting.
I think we kind of know the direction 8th has taken.
Oh so we have found our new bogeyman? I'm glad, Matt Ward was a little old at this point.
Be honest guys, Magnus, Mortarion and Guilliman are some of the most OP models in the game. They aren't as busted as Dark Reapers because you can only have 1 of each in your army. But they are keeping down their own armies. You can buff DG, TS and Space Marines when they have those powerhouses in the form of their primarchs, without making the whole army completely busted. Specially Guilliman with his inmense buffing potential.
People has been so reliant in Primarchs that they panic to see them nerfed. And I can understand that, in some way Dark Angels are in the same boat with Azrael. But even Azrael is OP, he should cost 25-30 points more for what he does. And that would open the possibility of running other character as your warlord. Right now, is Azrael or Sammael if you are running Ravenwing.
And I find funny how people complained to no end about LOW being mandatory, how they don't belong in normal games, and now that they are making LOW harder to use in 2k point games and not an auto include people complain again (Yeah yeah different people have different opinions, I'm just talking about the general trend. And I say complain, not whining, I'm not insulting anyone!)
This is simply not true. Neither Magnus nor Guilliman lists are top tier at the moment. Mortarion can be, but there are better builds still. They are a crutch unit for midtables max... Azrael is not great anymore, as he only buffs infantry. I switched to Sammael + 2 Talonmasters (and might get more of them). they are incredibly strong at the moment, not sure if top tier, but close to it. Plasma inceptors are another really strong unit for dark angels, just because of the deep strike + plasma stratagem they are better than black knights.
Edit: Marines have other strong builds that can be better than Guilliman. E.g. Lias Issodon beta strike list.
You have it backwards. Guillimand and Azrael are INSANE. Whats keep them down is that they are a Space Marine LOW and HQ, so they buff Space Marines units (And infantry in the case of Azrael). And that was exactly my point. You can't make powerfull or even balanced Space Marine units keeping Azrael or Guilliman as they are now because they'll become totally busted. When you have a one-trick pony army you need to nerf the piece that makes the army competitive, and buff the rest, of course.
I'm not saying "Guilliman OP, nerf them". I'm saying "Guilliman is OP, nerf him, buff nearly the rest of the codex".
And one list doesn't need to be top tier to be OP and overly strong. Tau wheren't TOP tier in 7th. But they where a very strong Tier 2 army below Ynnari, Eldar and Daemons.
EDIT: Of course all of this is my opinion, I'm not even that great of a player, so take all of this as you want. I don't think in any shape or form that I have the absolute truth.
I see your point about Guilliman (still disagree on Azrael, he's good, but not OP, not anymore at least.). At the same time, marnes are very one-dimensional at the moment, so nerfing guilliman and buffing the rest of the codex won't change much. Everyone would just take chapter master+lietenant with pretty much the same builds. That is because the most efficinet units for marines are long range shooting blobbing around buffing characters.
If combat and close range units were buffed, while fire support units stayed the same, Guilliman would still be ok, as he would be required in multiple places at once, so his aura effects would give diminishing returns if a player took half the army as close range and the rest as fire support.
But while i partly agree on Guilliman, on Magnus I don't agree at all, he was maybe good in the beginning of 8th, but he is can't really deal with hordes and needs a first turn and has to get off the warp time to really do something. Now even more so, as he has to get off the weaver of fates and glamour. There is a chance to fail each of these and also there are stratagems that can flat deny a power.
correction: Ynnari, Daemons and marines/space wolves for 7th the era of soulburst and death stars
Maybe i'm looking at this from tournament perspective too much . (but then again when i go to the club for a fun game it's usually narrative games, so there the balance is skewed anyway)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: This a news and Rumor thred guys please keep the off topic stuff out of the thread.
So we know we have all the standard options for chaos, all daemon engines, all the main line tanks, our new options.
We know almost all of our 3 spell lists, Hereticus, Daemons, and the new list where we just learned about Temporal;
So we have Temporal
Glamour
Doombolt
Firestorm
Weaver,
Meaning we are only missing 1 spell from the list, unless I cant quite recall it and it was already talked about. Either way, its a good list, and gives reason to take many many sorcerers in both HQ and in squads.....
We know the stats for the bow tzaangors for the most part, we know that the sorcerers in squads no longer cost beyond initial cost of squad mates + gear, we know the Mutalith info for the most part, and know the info for the Tzaangor shaman.
We know that we are getting a large number of strategems, only about half a dozen of which have been spoiled.
Tzaangor swing twice
Vets of the Long War
Spawn buff strat
Spawn MAKING strat (lol)
Webway Strategem.
There may have been 1-2 others I cant recall.
We know that Magnus' auras have changed, one being for psychic checks, the other for "to hit" rolls As well as knowing an extra spell. Came up 30 points.
Ahrimans Warlord trait is +1 to invul save leaving him at a standard 3++ invul, as well as Ahriman having a Captain aura, this means that Exalteds WILL have at minimum that "Re roll 1's" aura at minimum Given the character design conventions of 8th
All fairly impressive. Working on formulating some list ideas based upon the info we have now.I may have missed some points, but this is the overview of it.
Thanks for the recap. If we can expect Firestorm (which it hasnt been confirmed thankfully lol... heres hoping its gone!), then we can probably expect Cabalistic Ritual.
Personally I don't get much out of CR. I hope it's something else, or just doesn't require 2 other guys.
I would like to have a proper "Codex: Thousand Sons", not a "Codex: Tzeentch-All-flavours" or "Codex: Servants of Tzeentch". I wanted a Thousand Sons LEGION codex. More units, characters and rules to properly represent them on the game. This is not that. Is just a lazy amalgamation of units, making this a poor and lazy "Tzeentch Soup" that i don't like.
Thats the point where you are wrong. Thousand Sons don't exist anymore. Theres no Chaos Legions anymore. Even the Black Legion and Death Guard, the most organised ones, are in general a bunch of chaos warbands with a ton of freedom and loosely organized between themselves. Chaos Space Marines aren't loyalists. They aren't organized in chapters. The most common chaos force in the galaxy is an amalgamation of all kind of Chaos forces, specially space marines from different origins/legions,etc... The Thousand Sons Codex is there to represent the present state of the Thousand Sons afilliated sorcerers, a bunch of madmans that only care about their personal powers, that work more like a Imperial Inquisitor gathering a bunch of random troops for their service rather than like an organized military faction.
Well, no. I am not "wrong". lol. You can say that and is your opinion, but there are not words like those in the background... Is... your opinion.
There are chaos legions, more or less splintered and more or less organized, but there are STILL space marines legions that pledge their loyalty to the chaos gods... and their primarchs. I think i know where you get that "warband" idea from. Is from the 4th edition chaos sm codex, also known as "destroy personalization" codex, after the excellent 2nd codex of 3rd edition. When GW tried to effectively destroy the chaos legions, and make us swallow that stupid idea of "chaos warbands", making the CSM like cartoon villains, and making some random idiotic warband more important than the original legions... I despise that background, i really dislike it. What is more, there are not direct references to the status of the legions in a detailed way, as far as i know. So it is unclear. So all it's possible.
Besides that, last background material that i know says that the Thousand Sons from Magnus and the Exiles of Ahriman reunited to launch an attack on Fenris. That to me seems like a "legion". They obey and follow their primarch. Magnus for thousand of years, was supposedly accounting warp sheeps or something, until he organized all the Fenris things. After that, the planet of the sorcerers supposedly is back on the real space, next to Prospero, and Magnus is able to go around. So i think is safe to say that the TS will still follow the orders of their primarch, so again, yes they are a "legion" (badly understrenght after Doggy McRussDog was loosed on Prospero, that is also true, but coherent fighting force under command of a primarch - so, legion).
And from a intra-universe point of view, both ideas are actually plausibles. You can have a large portion of the legions that is around their primarchs and do mostly nothing, and some rogue individuals that mount a "warband" and do what you say. That could be a very minor part of the actual ancient marines from the heresy, and still be a legion.
Virules wrote: Assuming the d3 heal works on Magnus, it's good news, but as someone who goes to tournaments with Morty and Magnus and a Nurgle psyker to heal d3 wounds on Morty I can tell you it doesn't help too much to keep the models alive. Often they go down in 1 round of dedicated fire.
This will be especially true for Magnus now that he can't start on the board with -1 to hit and permanently lost reroll invuls of 1.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, is it true that Magnus went up in cost 30 points?
So they make Magnus decidedly far weaker then jack up his points?
Are they just finished selling Magnus. Like the sales guy said "Ok we've made enough money off of him go ahead and destroy hi. Rules wise so they'll stop using him."
Reece's view seems to counts for the most among playtesters from what I've heard, and he's been vocal on FLG that he doesn't like large single model units since it's not what he enjoys playing. He was very unhappy when Magnus gained the ability to boost to a 3++. So I am not surprised that Changeling, Brimstones, and Magnus got nerfed, and that it was FAQ's that you couldn't use Codex Daemons stratagems on Morty or Magnus before even seeing how it played out in the meta.
At the same time, the Eldar, Tyranid, and Astra Militarum codexes were outstanding, with very few dud units, relics, stratagems, etc. compared to other codexes (which have to rely on a handful of powerful units to be competitive...such as Morty and Magnus, hah). Also Reece's favorite armies and ones I am sure he was very involved in playtesting.
I think we kind of know the direction 8th has taken.
Wow, what a scummy underhanded attempt to slander a guy in an attempt to find a scape goat. It's a game of toy soldiers, but hey lets take it so seriously that we will accuse a prominent community member of manipulating the game.
He is a play tester, his job is to point out things he disagrees with mate. I don't think you understand the point in getting an outside opinion. They give him rules, he tells them if he thinks they are fun. It's really that simple.
But ignore me, just go ahead and try to smear the guy some more and see how that turns out for you.
Virules wrote: Assuming the d3 heal works on Magnus, it's good news, but as someone who goes to tournaments with Morty and Magnus and a Nurgle psyker to heal d3 wounds on Morty I can tell you it doesn't help too much to keep the models alive. Often they go down in 1 round of dedicated fire.
This will be especially true for Magnus now that he can't start on the board with -1 to hit and permanently lost reroll invuls of 1.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, is it true that Magnus went up in cost 30 points?
So they make Magnus decidedly far weaker then jack up his points?
Are they just finished selling Magnus. Like the sales guy said "Ok we've made enough money off of him go ahead and destroy hi. Rules wise so they'll stop using him."
Reece's view seems to counts for the most among playtesters from what I've heard, and he's been vocal on FLG that he doesn't like large single model units since it's not what he enjoys playing. He was very unhappy when Magnus gained the ability to boost to a 3++. So I am not surprised that Changeling, Brimstones, and Magnus got nerfed, and that it was FAQ's that you couldn't use Codex Daemons stratagems on Morty or Magnus before even seeing how it played out in the meta.
At the same time, the Eldar, Tyranid, and Astra Militarum codexes were outstanding, with very few dud units, relics, stratagems, etc. compared to other codexes (which have to rely on a handful of powerful units to be competitive...such as Morty and Magnus, hah). Also Reece's favorite armies and ones I am sure he was very involved in playtesting.
I think we kind of know the direction 8th has taken.
Wow, what a scummy underhanded attempt to slander a guy in an attempt to find a scape goat. It's a game of toy soldiers, but hey lets take it so seriously that we will accuse a prominent community member of manipulating the game.
He is a play tester, his job is to point out things he disagrees with mate. I don't think you understand the point in getting an outside opinion. They give him rules, he tells them if he thinks they are fun. It's really that simple.
But ignore me, just go ahead and try to smear the guy some more and see how that turns out for you.
Are you suggesting that he is pure and incorruptible, like some play testing version of batman?
He has made a direct effect on the rules whether you like it or not, and there is some obvious bias because of it. Whether that bias is conscious or subconscious can be debated, but I don't have an issue whatsoever with calling them out on it. It was already a really really really bad idea to minimally expand the play testing base to the guys who shout the loudest about balance, yet only play in a competitive WAAC meta anyway who happily utilise BS like conga lines and seem to nerf only things they don't like that won't effect their armies or playing style etc
How we humans love to put the blame in a single name. And years after we realize the worst balance problems where from the guys in the suits and not the ones writting the codexes.
Virules wrote: Assuming the d3 heal works on Magnus, it's good news, but as someone who goes to tournaments with Morty and Magnus and a Nurgle psyker to heal d3 wounds on Morty I can tell you it doesn't help too much to keep the models alive. Often they go down in 1 round of dedicated fire.
This will be especially true for Magnus now that he can't start on the board with -1 to hit and permanently lost reroll invuls of 1.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, is it true that Magnus went up in cost 30 points?
So they make Magnus decidedly far weaker then jack up his points?
Are they just finished selling Magnus. Like the sales guy said "Ok we've made enough money off of him go ahead and destroy hi. Rules wise so they'll stop using him."
Reece's view seems to counts for the most among playtesters from what I've heard, and he's been vocal on FLG that he doesn't like large single model units since it's not what he enjoys playing. He was very unhappy when Magnus gained the ability to boost to a 3++. So I am not surprised that Changeling, Brimstones, and Magnus got nerfed, and that it was FAQ's that you couldn't use Codex Daemons stratagems on Morty or Magnus before even seeing how it played out in the meta.
At the same time, the Eldar, Tyranid, and Astra Militarum codexes were outstanding, with very few dud units, relics, stratagems, etc. compared to other codexes (which have to rely on a handful of powerful units to be competitive...such as Morty and Magnus, hah). Also Reece's favorite armies and ones I am sure he was very involved in playtesting.
I think we kind of know the direction 8th has taken.
Wow, what a scummy underhanded attempt to slander a guy in an attempt to find a scape goat. It's a game of toy soldiers, but hey lets take it so seriously that we will accuse a prominent community member of manipulating the game.
He is a play tester, his job is to point out things he disagrees with mate. I don't think you understand the point in getting an outside opinion. They give him rules, he tells them if he thinks they are fun. It's really that simple.
But ignore me, just go ahead and try to smear the guy some more and see how that turns out for you.
First of all, you are dragging this thread off topic after others already tried to reset the discussion.
Second, to be clear, if you had bothered to read what I'd actually written instead of whipping yourself into a melodramatic frenzy, you would have realized that I am not slandering anyone. I also never said Reece (or anyone else) is manipulating the game. It is almost a waste of my time to respond to a post like this because it's full of strawman statements trying to get me to defend statements I never made and a position I don't agree with.
All I said was that both from the way codexes and rules changes have manifested themselves in the current edition, as well as what I've heard, Reece is one of the most influential if not the most influential outside opinion in terms of what gets changed. And therefore I am not surprised to see so many things about the game and the way the meta changes seemingly reflecting the preferences and viewpoints he shares on his public platforms.
That's certainly nothing malicious and I for one am glad that GW is consulting playtesters again, but it also means that the meta and codexes do seem (from the outside at least) to be tinged fairly substantially in the direction of someone (or a handful of people) who has / who have pretty specific viewpoint and pretty specific preferences regarding the game. Which means that to some extent you are a bit gak out of luck if you don't share some of those views or army / playstyle preferences. And I also don't think it's a coincidence that the armies that are the longtime personal favorites of some of the most influential playtesters are the ones who received the most comprehensive sets of improvements in their codexes, since I think that's likely where the bulk of enthusiasm and focus went from people who necessarily have a finite amount of time and energy to devote to what is essentially volunteer work. Edit: Something that I think is especially true and inevitable given the frenetic page at which GW is pushing new codexes.
The Scarabs, Shaman and Rubrics took 3 different Change powers in the batrep which is why I was thinking they could only take Change. If so, that's not so bad considering that we can choose now instead of rolling.
But yes I would like to slingshot a unit of rubrics via the relic and not commit to putting an HQ near them for the Warptime!
Brometheus wrote: The Scarabs, Shaman and Rubrics took 3 different Change powers in the batrep which is why I was thinking they could only take Change. If so, that's not so bad considering that we can choose now instead of rolling.
But yes I would like to slingshot a unit of rubrics via the relic and not commit to putting an HQ near them for the Warptime!
Me, I'd like to deep strike a unit of Rubrics with flamers and then let their sorcerer Warptime them into range to just *fwoosh* a unit off the board.
I would like to have a proper "Codex: Thousand Sons", not a "Codex: Tzeentch-All-flavours" or "Codex: Servants of Tzeentch". I wanted a Thousand Sons LEGION codex. More units, characters and rules to properly represent them on the game. This is not that. Is just a lazy amalgamation of units, making this a poor and lazy "Tzeentch Soup" that i don't like.
Thats the point where you are wrong. Thousand Sons don't exist anymore. Theres no Chaos Legions anymore. Even the Black Legion and Death Guard, the most organised ones, are in general a bunch of chaos warbands with a ton of freedom and loosely organized between themselves.
Chaos Space Marines aren't loyalists. They aren't organized in chapters. The most common chaos force in the galaxy is an amalgamation of all kind of Chaos forces, specially space marines from different origins/legions,etc...
The Thousand Sons Codex is there to represent the present state of the Thousand Sons afilliated sorcerers, a bunch of madmans that only care about their personal powers, that work more like a Imperial Inquisitor gathering a bunch of random troops for their service rather than like an organized military faction.
Well, no. I am not "wrong". lol. You can say that and is your opinion, but there are not words like those in the background... Is... your opinion.
There are chaos legions, more or less splintered and more or less organized, but there are STILL space marines legions that pledge their loyalty to the chaos gods... and their primarchs. I think i know where you get that "warband" idea from. Is from the 4th edition chaos sm codex, also known as "destroy personalization" codex, after the excellent 2nd codex of 3rd edition. When GW tried to effectively destroy the chaos legions, and make us swallow that stupid idea of "chaos warbands", making the CSM like cartoon villains, and making some random idiotic warband more important than the original legions... I despise that background, i really dislike it. What is more, there are not direct references to the status of the legions in a detailed way, as far as i know. So it is unclear. So all it's possible.
Besides that, last background material that i know says that the Thousand Sons from Magnus and the Exiles of Ahriman reunited to launch an attack on Fenris. That to me seems like a "legion". They obey and follow their primarch. Magnus for thousand of years, was supposedly accounting warp sheeps or something, until he organized all the Fenris things. After that, the planet of the sorcerers supposedly is back on the real space, next to Prospero, and Magnus is able to go around. So i think is safe to say that the TS will still follow the orders of their primarch, so again, yes they are a "legion" (badly understrenght after Doggy McRussDog was loosed on Prospero, that is also true, but coherent fighting force under command of a primarch - so, legion).
And from a intra-universe point of view, both ideas are actually plausibles. You can have a large portion of the legions that is around their primarchs and do mostly nothing, and some rogue individuals that mount a "warband" and do what you say. That could be a very minor part of the actual ancient marines from the heresy, and still be a legion.
Plus the Word bearers have been directly stated at still being a legion, the Iron Warriors are also a legion, a bit fractured but nothing on the scale of Emperors children and world eaters, infact.
Broken legions:
Night lords: Broken during the heresy
World Eaters: Broken at Skalathrax
Emperors Children: Broken during the legion wars
Fractured legions
Iron Warriors: Competing warsmiths but still organised.
Death Guard: Never stated to be a broken legion, still quite organised
Thousand sons: numbers decimated but still organised
Still legions
Black Legion: still very organised but is prone to fracturing, so this dips in and out of fractured.
Word Bearers: directly stated to still be an organised legion.
Dead Legions
Sons of Horus: some may possibly be kicking around, but they are hunted by the other legions so unlikely.
Unknown
Alpha Legion: we just dont know
Some still use the chapter organisation, some are warbands, others are held together on the charisma and might of the chaos lord, it varies, the main difference is when the command of the legion calls, people listen.
Brometheus wrote: I keep thinking there is new TS info but it's just you guys arguing about dudesmen
I know right... I honestly haven't seen so many similar threads get derailed so many times... Don't the Thousand Sons players want to talk about, oh I don't know, Thousand Sons stuff?
I havent had a chance to sift through the nonsense but I'd be curious to see whatever that last spell is in the Change discipline, the Mutilith abilities, and whatever other fun things any of those Tzaangor units have (that haven't already been mentioned).
Plus the Word bearers have been directly stated at still being a legion, the Iron Warriors are also a legion, a bit fractured but nothing on the scale of Emperors children and world eaters, infact.
Broken legions:
Night lords: Broken during the heresy
World Eaters: Broken at Skalathrax
Emperors Children: Broken during the legion wars
Fractured legions
Iron Warriors: Competing warsmiths but still organised.
Death Guard: Never stated to be a broken legion, still quite organised
Thousand sons: numbers decimated but still organised
Still legions
Black Legion: still very organised but is prone to fracturing, so this dips in and out of fractured.
Word Bearers: directly stated to still be an organised legion.
Dead Legions
Sons of Horus: some may possibly be kicking around, but they are hunted by the other legions so unlikely.
Unknown
Alpha Legion: we just dont know
Some still use the chapter organisation, some are warbands, others are held together on the charisma and might of the chaos lord, it varies, the main difference is when the command of the legion calls, people listen.
Sons of Horus are the Black Legion, Abaddon renamed them after the Heresy. Deathguard retreated to the eye of terror "largely intact" following the heresy as well so I wouldn't call them a fractured legion. Thousand Sons seem to be replacing their losses with tzaangors so they could very well be back to legion numbers as well.
Brometheus wrote: I keep thinking there is new TS info but it's just you guys arguing about dudesmen
I know right... I honestly haven't seen so many similar threads get derailed so many times... Don't the Thousand Sons players want to talk about, oh I don't know, Thousand Sons stuff?
I havent had a chance to sift through the nonsense but I'd be curious to see whatever that last spell is in the Change discipline, the Mutilith abilities, and whatever other fun things any of those Tzaangor units have (that haven't already been mentioned).
I think everyone wants to hear new stuff about the codex, but unfortunately with the lack of leaks, all we can do is wait and/or speculate on the possible changes. And speculation leads to wishlisting which leads to assumptions that start disagreements, hence the arguments...
I think the biggest thing i want to know is if there are any changes to exalted sorcerers... Followed closely by what new wargear tzaangor unit has if any?
Hikaru, where are you? Ignore the offtopics and keep the information flowing, please. Would you want to share the rules of the Mutalith Vortex Beast? Thank you.
Meh. This just tells me there's not many changes or exciting things they want to advertise in the hopes of building hype. Feels like they are treating it as a second rate dex, or a break between big releases.
Benn Roe wrote: We got a "faction focus" on Monday, as though Thousand Sons were a subfaction of Codex: Chaos Space Marines. It seems like that's going to be it.
nintura wrote: Meh. This just tells me there's not many changes or exciting things they want to advertise in the hopes of building hype. Feels like they are treating it as a second rate dex, or a break between big releases.
The community team is mostly in transit to Las Vegas for the Las Vegas Open right now.
nintura wrote: Meh. This just tells me there's not many changes or exciting things they want to advertise in the hopes of building hype. Feels like they are treating it as a second rate dex, or a break between big releases.
The community team is mostly in transit to Las Vegas for the Las Vegas Open right now.
No Kanluwen you are completely wrong, GW just hates Thousand Sons, thats why they make them lost the demostration battle vs Adeptus Custodes, the new hotness.
nintura wrote: Meh. This just tells me there's not many changes or exciting things they want to advertise in the hopes of building hype. Feels like they are treating it as a second rate dex, or a break between big releases.
The community team is mostly in transit to Las Vegas for the Las Vegas Open right now.
No Kanluwen you are completely wrong, GW just hates Thousand Sons, thats why they make them lost the demostration battle vs Adeptus Custodes, the new hotness.
nintura wrote: Meh. This just tells me there's not many changes or exciting things they want to advertise in the hopes of building hype. Feels like they are treating it as a second rate dex, or a break between big releases.
The community team is mostly in transit to Las Vegas for the Las Vegas Open right now.
No Kanluwen you are completely wrong, GW just hates Thousand Sons, thats why they make them lost the demostration battle vs Adeptus Custodes, the new hotness.
nintura wrote: Meh. This just tells me there's not many changes or exciting things they want to advertise in the hopes of building hype. Feels like they are treating it as a second rate dex, or a break between big releases.
The community team is mostly in transit to Las Vegas for the Las Vegas Open right now.
No Kanluwen you are completely wrong, GW just hates Thousand Sons, thats why they make them lost the demostration battle vs Adeptus Custodes, the new hotness.
... The TS won that battle.
I think your sarcasm radar is broken.
Who needs sarcasm when all your friends are dust, anyway?
nintura wrote: Meh. This just tells me there's not many changes or exciting things they want to advertise in the hopes of building hype. Feels like they are treating it as a second rate dex, or a break between big releases.
The community team is mostly in transit to Las Vegas for the Las Vegas Open right now.
No Kanluwen you are completely wrong, GW just hates Thousand Sons, thats why they make them lost the demostration battle vs Adeptus Custodes, the new hotness.
... The TS won that battle.
I think your sarcasm radar is broken.
Who needs sarcasm when all your friends are dust, anyway?
Well, there are all them silly goatbirds around you need to mock with your other sorcerer friends.
It would be nice for an article a day though as a lot of our choices come from other dexes we will likely get 2 more to round other strats, hqs maybe and d other goodies.
Though it may not get the standard marine push or DG this editions focused antagonist what i have seen so far does not look second rate and i am excited. Was hoping for an article today, fingers crossed (all 13).
nintura wrote: Meh. This just tells me there's not many changes or exciting things they want to advertise in the hopes of building hype. Feels like they are treating it as a second rate dex, or a break between big releases.
The community team is mostly in transit to Las Vegas for the Las Vegas Open right now.
No Kanluwen you are completely wrong, GW just hates Thousand Sons, thats why they make them lost the demostration battle vs Adeptus Custodes, the new hotness.
... The TS won that battle.
I think your sarcasm radar is broken.
Who needs sarcasm when all your friends are dust, anyway?
nintura wrote: Meh. This just tells me there's not many changes or exciting things they want to advertise in the hopes of building hype. Feels like they are treating it as a second rate dex, or a break between big releases.
The community team is mostly in transit to Las Vegas for the Las Vegas Open right now.
No Kanluwen you are completely wrong, GW just hates Thousand Sons, thats why they make them lost the demostration battle vs Adeptus Custodes, the new hotness.
I wonder, will Rubrics and Scarabs get the full version of 'Smite' power or will it remain the same (just 1 MW for normal cast and D3 MW for 11+ cast)? And also - is there any chance Scarabs get 2 casts as they could have in 7th ed?
nintura wrote: Meh. This just tells me there's not many changes or exciting things they want to advertise in the hopes of building hype. Feels like they are treating it as a second rate dex, or a break between big releases.
The community team is mostly in transit to Las Vegas for the Las Vegas Open right now.
No Kanluwen you are completely wrong, GW just hates Thousand Sons, thats why they make them lost the demostration battle vs Adeptus Custodes, the new hotness.
... The TS won that battle.
Thanks, in no small part, to a clutch use of the Dark Matter Crystal to grab that objective. That thing is going to be incredibly useful.
You know aspiring and sots might get big smite instead of mini smite. They seem to be getting more relevence and with smite nerf it is possible. I think i read here we dont pay for him seperate only his gear so maybe not.
The extra spell, added range and cheaper cost makes me inclined to say they will not as it is huge. The smite nerf however makes it a wild card.
nintura wrote: Meh. This just tells me there's not many changes or exciting things they want to advertise in the hopes of building hype. Feels like they are treating it as a second rate dex, or a break between big releases.
The community team is mostly in transit to Las Vegas for the Las Vegas Open right now.
No Kanluwen you are completely wrong, GW just hates Thousand Sons, thats why they make them lost the demostration battle vs Adeptus Custodes, the new hotness.
nintura wrote: Well, Thursday or Friday, warhammer TV is going to have Custodes vs Thousand Sons with some preview of the codex. I predict a slaughter that will make Thousand Sons new codex look like an embarrassment.
OokamiEq wrote: I wonder, will Rubrics and Scarabs get the full version of 'Smite' power or will it remain the same (just 1 MW for normal cast and D3 MW for 11+ cast)? And also - is there any chance Scarabs get 2 casts as they could have in 7th ed?
nintura wrote: Well, Thursday or Friday, warhammer TV is going to have Custodes vs Thousand Sons with some preview of the codex. I predict a slaughter that will make Thousand Sons new codex look like an embarrassment.
Question. What all was left of the Thousand Sons forces after they won via objective?
nintura wrote: Well, Thursday or Friday, warhammer TV is going to have Custodes vs Thousand Sons with some preview of the codex. I predict a slaughter that will make Thousand Sons new codex look like an embarrassment.
Question. What all was left of the Thousand Sons forces after they won via objective?
nintura wrote: Well, Thursday or Friday, warhammer TV is going to have Custodes vs Thousand Sons with some preview of the codex. I predict a slaughter that will make Thousand Sons new codex look like an embarrassment.
Question. What all was left of the Thousand Sons forces after they won via objective?
Not much, but not a slaughter or embarrassment either - especially with observable mistakes made by Eddy.
nintura wrote: Well, Thursday or Friday, warhammer TV is going to have Custodes vs Thousand Sons with some preview of the codex. I predict a slaughter that will make Thousand Sons new codex look like an embarrassment.
Question. What all was left of the Thousand Sons forces after they won via objective?
Enough to win the game.
And if the objective of the game was different? Did the models feel balanced? I recall the custodes player being outnumbered 5:1? And having semi bad die rolling. Granted Magnus did too, but not as bad as the Custodes.
nintura wrote: Well, Thursday or Friday, warhammer TV is going to have Custodes vs Thousand Sons with some preview of the codex. I predict a slaughter that will make Thousand Sons new codex look like an embarrassment.
Question. What all was left of the Thousand Sons forces after they won via objective?
Daemon prince, Rubrics, Ahriman on disc and maybe some tzaangors. I forget
nintura wrote: Well, Thursday or Friday, warhammer TV is going to have Custodes vs Thousand Sons with some preview of the codex. I predict a slaughter that will make Thousand Sons new codex look like an embarrassment.
Question. What all was left of the Thousand Sons forces after they won via objective?
Daemon prince, Rubrics, Ahriman on disc and maybe some tzaangors. I forget
Maybe I missed them, but I dont recall there being that much left over. I thought the custodes still seriously outnumbered Thousand Sons?
nintura wrote: Well, Thursday or Friday, warhammer TV is going to have Custodes vs Thousand Sons with some preview of the codex. I predict a slaughter that will make Thousand Sons new codex look like an embarrassment.
Question. What all was left of the Thousand Sons forces after they won via objective?
Daemon prince, Rubrics, Ahriman on disc and maybe some tzaangors. I forget
Maybe I missed them, but I dont recall there being that much left over. I thought the custodes still seriously outnumbered Thousand Sons?
There was maybe less than 4 Custodian models left at the end.
Ahriman, the daemon prince and rubrics were in solid control of the necessary objectives by the end
there were 3 models left for custodes: 2 terminators and half dead land raider controlling 1 objective.
There were more models left for thousand sons: 1 tzaangor on disc, 1 tzaangor on foot, shaman, ahriman, daemon prince and several rubrics (almost full squad).
Oh, thousand sons get boon... thaaats interesting... I'm going to make the assumption that like the Death Guard's version of the Miasma spell it targets Thousand Sons. Assuming that, Boon is an amazing spell to add to the buffs we can stack on a unit of Tzaangors or SOT. Though now I'm going to want a DP in the list much more to ensure that I don't get stuck with +1T when i'm trying to have my 40 tzaangors rip up a bunch of infantry.
Oh I didn't mean to be rude! Sorry!
Tzeentch's Firestorm as of Chapter Approved was Warp Charge 7, pick an enemy unit within 18″ of the psyker that is visible. Roll 9 dice, the enemy unit takes a Mortal Wound for each roll of a 6.
Yeah, sucks that firestorm is in there since it's such a garbage spell (of course the one time I tried using it on ahriman I scored 4 mortals with it, but like...averages, Scotsman, keep your eye on the averages...) but eh. A couple good spells in Change discipline to throw on offensive casters with cast bonuses, a couple low ml spells to throw on rubrics to buff stuff... some definitely good reasons to pick up the daemon psykers to get the tzeentch discipline, I like the lists so far.
I can't remember if it was WC7 or WC9 but at WC7 it's not *too* bad as it averages out to 1.5 mortal wounds on a unit that you get to pick, 24" range with the Thousand Sons legion trait. I'm happy for an Aspiring Sorcerer to have it. Could be better though for sure.
Caederes wrote: Oh I didn't mean to be rude! Sorry!
Tzeentch's Firestorm as of Chapter Approved was Warp Charge 7, pick an enemy unit within 18″ of the psyker that is visible. Roll 9 dice, the enemy unit takes a Mortal Wound for each roll of a 6.
I didn't take it that way at all though thanks and also for the spell summary. Also sorry if my response was curt.
The firestorm has always been the old big hit or miss.
Now im thinking i got over exited that boon is in the 1k sons disipline and sots and tzangoors would benefit though i think ig is the demon discipline that only effects demons.
Interestingly if it was similar to Miasma, ie same effect just targeting Tsons instead of Daemons, it would not be subject to the same restriction GW just FAQed into the DG one. They'd be different spells, technically.
I definitely wouldn't mind that at all, though there's far fewer good targets for it on the daemon side having both wouldn't be bad. most of my lists so far have had something like 9-10 casters with 15 powers in a 2k list, so I'm going to need every separate cast I can get lol.
Caederes wrote: Oh I didn't mean to be rude! Sorry!
Tzeentch's Firestorm as of Chapter Approved was Warp Charge 7, pick an enemy unit within 18″ of the psyker that is visible. Roll 9 dice, the enemy unit takes a Mortal Wound for each roll of a 6.
I didn't take it that way at all though thanks and also for the spell summary. Also sorry if my response was curt.
The firestorm has always been the old big hit or miss.
Now im thinking i got over exited that boon is in the 1k sons disipline and sots and tzangoors would benefit though i think ig is the demon discipline that only effects demons.
Ok that's good lol, it can be hard to tell on the internet so thought I'd make sure
I'm curious to see what that new Boon power is, if it's anything like the Daemon one then yeah our combat units will definitely get some mega value out of it.
Boon of Mutation WC7. Select friendly TS Character (not a daemon character) within 3". Roll 2D6 and consult the chart on the Boon of Tzeentch to see what effect this power has. Similiar to the old chaos boon table.
The Mutalith , i didn't pay too much attention, 150 pts.
Similar statline to Haruspex but WS3+ with the attack that lets you do more attack per attack.
Two options for the chart (buffs) [range 9-18"]
Choose a power and it triggers OR Roll a D6 and you get to roll a second time for a second effect.
If you go below half wounds, your chart abilities' range doubles.
Overall , I didn't pay too much attention to the codex unless it was top tier and can be used in conjunction with my current Chaos.
For 150 points, a similar profile to the Haruspex that instead hits on 3s with the addition of an invulnerable sounds really darned good. I like the way that buff aura works too, guaranteeing you can get what you want or doubling up on abilities at the price of randomness. Not bad and the ranges of the abilities are pretty big even before doubling.
If Boon of Tzeentch uses the Chaos Boon chart from Chaos Space Marines, that's alright in conjunction with Gaze of Fate I guess. Nothing special.
Caederes wrote: For 150 points, a similar profile to the Haruspex that instead hits on 3s with the addition of an invulnerable sounds really darned good. I like the way that buff aura works too, guaranteeing you can get what you want or doubling up on abilities at the price of randomness. Not bad and the ranges of the abilities are pretty big even before doubling.
If Boon of Tzeentch uses the Chaos Boon chart from Chaos Space Marines, that's alright in conjunction with Gaze of Fate I guess. Nothing special.
Cheers!
Yeah , my first thought was that it's straight up a way better haruspex that worked like an old chaos warshrine, and 40-50 points cheaper than a Haruspex. Pretty good value.
The abilities are all over the place from minor statbuff to shooty mw. lol
I may take one in fun games then due to randomness. Although depending on how it's used, it might end up being a fire magnet (especially when it's first released).
Skerr wrote: You know aspiring and sots might get big smite instead of mini smite. They seem to be getting more relevence and with smite nerf it is possible. I think i read here we dont pay for him seperate only his gear so maybe not.
The extra spell, added range and cheaper cost makes me inclined to say they will not as it is huge. The smite nerf however makes it a wild card.
Of course smite nerf itself had nothing to do with rules in codex that were already in print by the time smite nerf was announced. Which btw isn't yet even official rule and is on beta test phase.
Is there anything that could help Magnus survive T1? Maybe stratagem activated when model is target in enemy shooting? Are there any other changes to Magnus besides that we already know?
Skerr wrote: You know aspiring and sots might get big smite instead of mini smite. They seem to be getting more relevence and with smite nerf it is possible. I think i read here we dont pay for him seperate only his gear so maybe not.
The extra spell, added range and cheaper cost makes me inclined to say they will not as it is huge. The smite nerf however makes it a wild card.
Of course smite nerf itself had nothing to do with rules in codex that were already in print by the time smite nerf was announced. Which btw isn't yet even official rule and is on beta test phase.
Thank you. I dont follow it all as closely as others and rely on the good nature of folks for clarity sometimes.
I doubt we get full smite. If we do I’ll cry tears of joy but I’m more excited for the rumored reroll 1s on psychic tests bubbles if it extends to Ahriman and exalted Sorcerors.
I’ve loved everything I’ve heard so far, I’m just hoping there’s a few stratagems that ramp up the damage output of rubrics and sot.
So far from what we know we will be able to dish out a ton of mortal wound spells and if we get vehicles close enough can dish out even more mortal wounds.
I still think we will have to ally in some long range fire support but otherwise we are in a much better place
demontalons wrote: I doubt we get full smite. If we do I’ll cry tears of joy but I’m more excited for the rumored reroll 1s on psychic tests bubbles if it extends to Ahriman and exalted Sorcerors.
I’ve loved everything I’ve heard so far, I’m just hoping there’s a few stratagems that ramp up the damage output of rubrics and sot.
So far from what we know we will be able to dish out a ton of mortal wound spells and if we get vehicles close enough can dish out even more mortal wounds.
I still think we will have to ally in some long range fire support but otherwise we are in a much better place
yeah, I was really hoping for another real anti-tank option (though Maulerfiends are definitely going to be dynamite with the Gargoyle stratagem combined with Daemonforge.) Maybe the enlightened spears are an anti-tank weapon. Tzeentch just has so many options for anti elite and anti infantry and then you've got predators, maulerfiends, and exalted flamers for all your anti tank needs!
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, sucks that firestorm is in there since it's such a garbage spell (of course the one time I tried using it on ahriman I scored 4 mortals with it, but like...averages, Scotsman, keep your eye on the averages...) but eh. A couple good spells in Change discipline to throw on offensive casters with cast bonuses, a couple low ml spells to throw on rubrics to buff stuff... some definitely good reasons to pick up the daemon psykers to get the tzeentch discipline, I like the lists so far.
If Rubrics still have little smite and can take a normal spell then firestorm is a clear winner there. Otherwise it is good enough to throw out mortal wounds.
Breotan wrote: Personally, I'd prefer seeing Thousand Sons get Sehkmet and Khenentai and heavy support Rubrics than more varieties of demons.
That's my opinion as well, i would had preferred more actual TS units and that GW would have done an actual TS Codex, and not Codex: Tzaangors and friends...
So far i am not impressed at all. Same points cost, lackluster powers, uninspired rules...
Something i would like to point out, that i think nobody has said before, is that in the WH Tv game, the Thousand sons rubrics 5 man squad did not have a soulreaper cannon. If they could have one each 5, why not? I am guessing that that means the Rubric squad will stay the same as the index chaos, so 1 soulreaper every 10 man in the squad... Soooo yet another super-exciting new to pile in this steaming piece of sh...
Breotan wrote: Personally, I'd prefer seeing Thousand Sons get Sehkmet and Khenentai and heavy support Rubrics than more varieties of demons.
That's my opinion as well, i would had preferred more actual TS units and that GW would have done an actual TS Codex, and not Codex: Tzaangors and friends...
So far i am not impressed at all. Same points cost, lackluster powers, uninspired rules...
Something i would like to point out, that i think nobody has said before, is that in the WH Tv game, the Thousand sons rubrics 5 man squad did not have a soulreaper cannon. If they could have one each 5, why not? I am guessing that that means the Rubric squad will stay the same as the index chaos, so 1 soulreaper every 10 man in the squad... Soooo yet another super-exciting new to pile in this steaming piece of sh...
I think it is fair to point out that they also chose to mount a combi-melta on a four-las predator.
you know, just in case they wanted to drive the predator up to 12" range to get that shot off.
Does this mean that predators will now be required to mount 20-something point combi-meltas? Of course, otherwise GW wouldn't have chosen to mount it that way, because we all know GW makes purely tactical decisions with the gear on their models. Oh woe to the thousand sons! What a steaming pile of crap! Burn your models!
Yea I agree anti tank/monster is our only real hole. Although if you can get some spawn into CC they are lethal with that strat. Reroll # of attack’s and reroll wounds for hordes. Or -4 ap for against tanks All at D2. They will need prescience on them though to be truly effective
the_scotsman wrote: Does this mean that predators will now be required to mount 20-something point combi-meltas? Of course, otherwise GW wouldn't have chosen to mount it that way, because we all know GW makes purely tactical decisions with the gear on their models.
Fair point. However is a bit strange to me if they can indeed have a soulreaper every 5 models, why not have it on that game?
And to adress your subtle hint to me, i don't care if this codex is very good in game or very efficient or very bad. I don't care about that. I've played 40k with TS in 3rd and 4th and i would like a codex like the 3.5, just like that, to properly represent the TS legion, not this... thing. This makes me sad, not mad. This is the same as most of the 8th edition codexes. They are lackluster, dull, boring and without character and they feel all like the same thing...
Breotan wrote: Personally, I'd prefer seeing Thousand Sons get Sehkmet and Khenentai and heavy support Rubrics than more varieties of demons.
That's my opinion as well, i would had preferred more actual TS units and that GW would have done an actual TS Codex, and not Codex: Tzaangors and friends...
So far i am not impressed at all. Same points cost, lackluster powers, uninspired rules...
Something i would like to point out, that i think nobody has said before, is that in the WH Tv game, the Thousand sons rubrics 5 man squad did not have a soulreaper cannon. If they could have one each 5, why not? I am guessing that that means the Rubric squad will stay the same as the index chaos, so 1 soulreaper every 10 man in the squad... Soooo yet another super-exciting new to pile in this steaming piece of sh...
I wouldn't take Gw's list-design philosophy to actually mean anything within the codex.
Am I right to assume the standard Sorcerer is just like re vanilla CSM and Death Guard ones with basic wargear and <Legion>? No fancy Invul or inferno bolts?
I think it is fair to point out that they also chose to mount a combi-melta on a four-las predator.
you know, just in case they wanted to drive the predator up to 12" range to get that shot off.
Does this mean that predators will now be required to mount 20-something point combi-meltas? Of course, otherwise GW wouldn't have chosen to mount it that way, because we all know GW makes purely tactical decisions with the gear on their models. Oh woe to the thousand sons! What a steaming pile of crap! Burn your models!
Nightlord1987 wrote: Am I right to assume the standard Sorcerer is just like re vanilla CSM and Death Guard ones with basic wargear and <Legion>? No fancy Invul or inferno bolts?
I hope not, especially if they leave the Daemon Shell stratagem in the codex and forget to edit it to include warp bolt weaponry.
Don't get me wrong, I hope they leave it in and do the latter (include warp bolt weaponry in the stratagem) but I don't have faith in gw's ability to remember to do that. It'd be super fun to run Ahriman just full trollmode with 2 offensive spells+smite+Daemon Shell stratagem and just dump 4D3 mortal wounds on something.
Anyone had confirmation if forgefiends are included in the codex?
Did a nice converted necosphinx a vhile back, would be nice to run now that he has an army to back him up.
Yeah it's pretty funny that Custodes (small model range, limited player interest, newer fanbase) got 5 days of detailed articles and 1k Sons (lots of models, longtime fan favorite) go 1 article and I guess maybe 1 more on Friday before pre order goes up Saturday (I assume that's the day).
Virules wrote: Yeah it's pretty funny that Custodes (small model range, limited player interest, newer fanbase) got 5 days of detailed articles and 1k Sons (lots of models, longtime fan favorite) go 1 article and I guess maybe 1 more on Friday before pre order goes up Saturday (I assume that's the day).
Custodes are a new army that previously consisted of a single unit.
Thousand Sons had their release last edition but no dedicated book until now.
We should get full leaks on the weekend if previous codices are anything to go by.
Based on what hikaru said earlier about "some characters" going up, I'd imagine Ahriman took a hike in particular. They also confirmed we had some points changes with regards to wargear, which could just mean the force weapon and Soulreaper changes that were done pre-codex and post-index, or it could mean something for our inferno weapons. Here's hoping.
Caederes wrote: We should get full leaks on the weekend if previous codices are anything to go by.
Based on what hikaru said earlier about "some characters" going up, I'd imagine Ahriman took a hike in particular. They also confirmed we had some points changes with regards to wargear, which could just mean the force weapon and Soulreaper changes that were done pre-codex and post-index, or it could mean something for our inferno weapons. Here's hoping.
I hope not unless they made him better in some way. He is pretty fairly priced now, and he should not have to pay more because the legion tactic is good.
nintura wrote: Well, Thursday or Friday, warhammer TV is going to have Custodes vs Thousand Sons with some preview of the codex. I predict a slaughter that will make Thousand Sons new codex look like an embarrassment.
Question. What all was left of the Thousand Sons forces after they won via objective?
Enough to win the game.
And if the objective of the game was different? Did the models feel balanced? I recall the custodes player being outnumbered 5:1? And having semi bad die rolling. Granted Magnus did too, but not as bad as the Custodes.
If the objective of the game was different then he'd be attempting different strategies to accomplish the goal. Kind of an odd thing to ask given that different objectives will require different methods and thoughts as for what one needs to do to win the game.
So I did understand about the Mutalith Vortex Beast that costs around 150 points and has a profile in the line of a Haruspex, that’s about 10~14 Wounds of T8 with S3+/5++ with a damage chart dependant Strength and aura range. There are 6 different auras and you can choose one of them o just roll 2d6 getting both auras at the same time. I’m right?
Hikaru, by any chance can you share the six aura effects? We already know that one on them lets you rerroll charge distances and it was hinted that the other causes Mortal Wounds, but what about the other four that remain unknown?
I'd imagine the Haruspex is the ballpark stats-wise for the Mutalith but not an exact copy, we already know the Mutalith hits on 3s unlike the Haruspex for example. I'd guess the other stats are all the same except that it's Toughness 7, and I'm also guessing its armour save might be 4+. The thing sounds damned good as it is, especially as it even has the same D3 to-hit rolls per attack weapon that the Haruspex has. More details needed of course.
Haruspex is WS4+ BS4+ S7 T8 W13 A4 LD6 SV3+ for reference and is a good 50ish points more expensive than the Mutalith, though it does have a few nifty rules (including another weapon that rips tanks to shreds) of its own of course.
Maelstrom of Madness: Pick an enemy unit within 9". Reduce its Leadership characteristic by 1 until the end of the turn. This is cumulative with other uses of this power (to a maximum of -3).
Remember how Treason of Tzeentch can be difficult to pull off because characters tend to have fairly high Leadership? Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.
It looks to me like it stacks. Bring several Mutaliths. Horrors shoot with Strength...how high do you want to go?
Man, this Mutalith is TASTY. I'm very happy to see stuff like this in the army that isn't explicitly tied to the psychic phase; it'll make it easier for us to deal with things that tend to shut down psyker powers, like Sisters of Silence or some 'Nids builds.
These Enlightened wield divining spears, fatecaster greatbows or simply the chainswords and autopistols they fought with in their earlier lives in battle.
Confirmed then that you can give them CS+BP. I don't know how competitive that will be, but more options are nice.
These Enlightened wield divining spears, fatecaster greatbows or simply the chainswords and autopistols they fought with in their earlier lives in battle.
Confirmed then that you can give them CS+BP. I don't know how competitive that will be, but more options are nice.
Well since the auto-wound occurs on any weapon they use you can get them more attacks with the CS, +1 to hit, and give them the AP they lose through the mutalith.
I have a question about the Tzaangor Enlightened's ability to do an auto-wound on a to-hit roll of 6+. Is this auto-wound in addition to the normal weapon the damage does? For example, an Enlightened with the divining spear charges and rolls a 6 to hit. That does an auto-wound. Does the Enlightened also get to roll to wound normally, to try for the extra 2 damage (because of the charge), resulting in a potential damage output of 3 on the charge?
Huh, so the auto-wound mechanic for Enlightened isn't just for the bows. That's neat.
First impressions of the Mutalith is that it is almost a must-take for Tzeentch Daemons based on what we know of its stats and that chart. The +1 Strength buff bringing Horrors up to Strength 5 means that with Flickering Flames they then wound Toughness 4 on 2+....which is absurd. If I'm not mistaken the Mutalith aura range was pretty big too so even hitting deep striking Pink Horrors shouldn't be too hard.
I'm not sure if Mutalith spam would necessarily be a thing given the cost (though they do sound extremely good for their points), but man, you can get Horrors up to over Strength 10 if you really wanted :lol Wow, I keep reading the auras and they are amazing. Doing guaranteed mortal wounds in a 9" radius is funny as hell. Beam of Unreality is literally a free Infernal Gaze that chooses the closest unit.
Also hot damn, that re-roll charge one giving you always strikes first to an already engaged unit is tasty. The buffs are definitely melee oriented (barring Horrors) either of those buffs on Tzaangors would be amazing.
Caederes wrote: Also hot damn, that re-roll charge one giving you always strikes first to an already engaged unit is tasty. The buffs are definitely melee oriented (barring Horrors) either of those buffs on Tzaangors would be amazing.
It's a fantastic counter to units like Daemonettes or Banshees that normally always strike first in close combat.
Brian888 wrote: I have a question about the Tzaangor Enlightened's ability to do an auto-wound on a to-hit roll of 6+. Is this auto-wound in addition to the normal weapon the damage does? For example, an Enlightened with the divining spear charges and rolls a 6 to hit. That does an auto-wound. Does the Enlightened also get to roll to wound normally, to try for the extra 2 damage (because of the charge), resulting in a potential damage output of 3 on the charge?
I think it's auto wound as in you bypass the wound roll and go straight to saving throws.
Brian888 wrote: I have a question about the Tzaangor Enlightened's ability to do an auto-wound on a to-hit roll of 6+. Is this auto-wound in addition to the normal weapon the damage does? For example, an Enlightened with the divining spear charges and rolls a 6 to hit. That does an auto-wound. Does the Enlightened also get to roll to wound normally, to try for the extra 2 damage (because of the charge), resulting in a potential damage output of 3 on the charge?
I think it's auto wound as in you bypass the wound roll and go straight to saving throws.
So, on the charge with the divining spear, you just go straight to the save, and if the target fails, it takes two wounds? Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice! Add in the Shaman, some Prescience to taste, and Ephemeral Touch? Time to go tank-hunting, lads!
Brian888 wrote: I have a question about the Tzaangor Enlightened's ability to do an auto-wound on a to-hit roll of 6+. Is this auto-wound in addition to the normal weapon the damage does? For example, an Enlightened with the divining spear charges and rolls a 6 to hit. That does an auto-wound. Does the Enlightened also get to roll to wound normally, to try for the extra 2 damage (because of the charge), resulting in a potential damage output of 3 on the charge?
I think it's auto wound as in you bypass the wound roll and go straight to saving throws.
So, on the charge with the divining spear, you just go straight to the save, and if the target fails, it takes two wounds? Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice! Time to go tank-hunting, lads!
On a hit roll of a 6 yeah it's nice, depends how many attacks each enlightened gets though, you might only get a couple of 6s from a squad of 3, I can see these being taken in large squads, deepstriking and rerolling charges from a near by mutalith.
Brian888 wrote: I have a question about the Tzaangor Enlightened's ability to do an auto-wound on a to-hit roll of 6+. Is this auto-wound in addition to the normal weapon the damage does? For example, an Enlightened with the divining spear charges and rolls a 6 to hit. That does an auto-wound. Does the Enlightened also get to roll to wound normally, to try for the extra 2 damage (because of the charge), resulting in a potential damage output of 3 on the charge?
I think it's auto wound as in you bypass the wound roll and go straight to saving throws.
So, on the charge with the divining spear, you just go straight to the save, and if the target fails, it takes two wounds? Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice! Time to go tank-hunting, lads!
On a hit roll of a 6 yeah it's nice, depends how many attacks each enlightened gets though, you might only get a couple of 6s from a squad of 3, I can see these being taken in large squads, deepstriking and rerolling charges from a near by mutalith.
With a Shaman nearby, it activates on a 5+. If Prescience can be cast on these guys? 4+.
Brian888 wrote: I have a question about the Tzaangor Enlightened's ability to do an auto-wound on a to-hit roll of 6+. Is this auto-wound in addition to the normal weapon the damage does? For example, an Enlightened with the divining spear charges and rolls a 6 to hit. That does an auto-wound. Does the Enlightened also get to roll to wound normally, to try for the extra 2 damage (because of the charge), resulting in a potential damage output of 3 on the charge?
I think it's auto wound as in you bypass the wound roll and go straight to saving throws.
So, on the charge with the divining spear, you just go straight to the save, and if the target fails, it takes two wounds? Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice! Time to go tank-hunting, lads!
On a hit roll of a 6 yeah it's nice, depends how many attacks each enlightened gets though, you might only get a couple of 6s from a squad of 3, I can see these being taken in large squads, deepstriking and rerolling charges from a near by mutalith.
With a Shaman nearby, it activates on a 5+. If Prescience can be cast on these guys? 4+.
The Index lists them as HERETIC ASTARTES, so I'd say Prescience is a go.
With a Shaman nearby, it activates on a 5+. If Prescience can be cast on these guys? 4+.
Only 3 wounds from 3.6 of these guys against T7 though. It would be hard to get them and all their support close enough. They'll absolutely shed anything in the way though.
With a Shaman nearby, it activates on a 5+. If Prescience can be cast on these guys? 4+.
Only 3 wounds from 3.6 of these guys against T7 though. It would be hard to get them and all their support close enough. They'll absolutely shed anything in the way though.
Why is that? There isn't anything particularly special about T8 in this edition, and if the lolrandom chart is its central power, it certainly needs something to keep it on the board.
Why is that? There isn't anything particularly special about T8 in this edition, and if the lolrandom chart is its central power, it certainly needs something to keep it on the board.
It's not necessarily random. You can pick once off the chart a round, or let it be random and get two rolls.
Why is that? There isn't anything particularly special about T8 in this edition, and if the lolrandom chart is its central power, it certainly needs something to keep it on the board.
T8 is actually quite key and it greatly reduces many anti-tank weapons.
And it isn't lolrandom. You get to pick one or roll 2D6.
Definitely a glass hammer unit, which is why you either run them with the bows or you Warptime the spear versions up. Alternatively, make sure you play on tables with actual line-of-sight-blocking terrain, though the models themselves are big so hiding them isn't too easy, speaking from experience!
Even if you can't get the Shaman in range, you can give them a few buffs before they fly up; namely Prescience and the AP buff from the Mutalith. Add Veterans of the Long War and ideally have one or both of a Shaman and a Daemon Prince/Exalted (re-roll 1s) in support to get them to their full potential.
Average rolls ahoy! 9 with the bonus AP from the Mutalith aura and all the buffs (Prescience, Shaman, re-roll 1s to-hit, Veterans of the Long War) gets 19 (+1 for Sergeant included) attacks with the spears that hit on 2s with re-rolls, so ~18-19 hits. Half of those should be auto-wounds, so that's 9-10. The other 9 regular hits will need 4s to wound any target below T10 thanks to VotLW, so that will net you another ~4-5 wounds. That's anywhere from 13 to 15 wounds at AP-2 on average rolls with all the buffs against a model below T10 that lacks any kind of to-hit or to-wound/Strength malus. Against a 3+ save model, thanks to that Mutalith AP buff you're looking at ~9-10 failed saves for 20 Damage. Against a 2+ save model, it's closer to ~6-8 failed saves for 12 to 16 Damage, enough to potentially obliterate a Land Raider. Again, these are rough averages.
I'm not the best at maths so I'm probably a bit off...but that's really nice for a unit that's quite cheap (17 per with the greatbow so possibly even cheaper with the spear) You can fire and forget them, let them tear up a unit, then start stacking the buffs on something else. Even without the Shaman and a Daemon Prince/Exalted nearby (so auto-wounding only on 5s, still hitting on 2s but no re-rolls of 1s to hit) their damage is still really strong (about 16 hits total, about 6 auto-wounds, 5 regular wounds for 11 total wounds leading to 7-8 unsaved on 3+ save models, still 14+ unsaved Damage).
Caederes wrote: Definitely a glass hammer unit, which is why you either run them with the bows or you Warptime the spear versions up. Alternatively, make sure you play on tables with actual line-of-sight-blocking terrain, though the models themselves are big so hiding them isn't too easy, speaking from experience!
Even if you can't get the Shaman in range, you can give them a few buffs before they fly up; namely Prescience and the AP buff from the Mutalith. Add Veterans of the Long War and ideally have one or both of a Shaman and a Daemon Prince/Exalted (re-roll 1s) in support to get them to their full potential.
Average rolls ahoy! 9 with the bonus AP from the Mutalith aura and all the buffs (Prescience, Shaman, re-roll 1s to-hit, Veterans of the Long War) gets 19 (+1 for Sergeant included) attacks with the spears that hit on 2s with re-rolls, so ~18-19 hits. Half of those should be auto-wounds, so that's 9-10. The other 9 regular hits will need 4s to wound any target below T10 thanks to VotLW, so that will net you another ~4-5 wounds. That's anywhere from 13 to 15 wounds at AP-2 on average rolls with all the buffs against a model below T10 that lacks any kind of to-hit or to-wound/Strength malus. Against a 3+ save model, thanks to that Mutalith AP buff you're looking at ~9-10 failed saves for 20 Damage. Against a 2+ save model, it's closer to ~6-8 failed saves for 12 to 16 Damage, enough to potentially obliterate a Land Raider. Again, these are rough averages.
I'm not the best at maths so I'm probably a bit off...but that's really nice for a unit that's quite cheap (17 per with the greatbow so possibly even cheaper with the spear) You can fire and forget them, let them tear up a unit, then start stacking the buffs on something else. Even without the Shaman and a Daemon Prince/Exalted nearby (so auto-wounding only on 5s, still hitting on 2s but no re-rolls of 1s to hit) their damage is still really strong (about 16 hits total, about 6 auto-wounds, 5 regular wounds for 11 total wounds leading to 7-8 unsaved on 3+ save models, still 14+ unsaved Damage).
Not bad at all.
I'm beginning to think this is the answer to the turn 1 Magnus question: The Sons can field multiple units that have the potential to eat you alive (especially in tandem), so do you go after the Mutaliths turn 1? Magnus? The Enlightened? That Maulerfiend that's all set to tear up the board?
Why is that? There isn't anything particularly special about T8 in this edition, and if the lolrandom chart is its central power, it certainly needs something to keep it on the board.
As others have stated, it's either pick one ability or randomly determine two abilities.
To your other point, Strength 8 is the sweet spot for anti-tank weapons as the most common Toughness value of vehicles and monsters is 7. Overcharged plasma and other similar weapons are the go-to anti-tank for a lot of armies. Toughness 8 stops anything short of lascannons and above (which are common for Imperium but not necessarily other armies) from wounding the vehicle on 3s which helps out way more than one would think. Additionally, Strength 4 is the second most common small arms fire Strength value in the game behind Strength 3 (or the most depending on your perspective) and Toughness 8 renders it nearly useless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thousand Sons in conjunction with Tzeentch Daemons can put out a thematic army that packs a whallop of a punch, it seems obvious to me the two armies were designed to work together. Horrors clear light to medium chaff, Rubrics or Flamers clear medium to heavy chaff - Deep Strike either or both and clear the way. Next, make liberal use of Warptime and your many, many psychic, Mutalith and stratagem-based buffs to torpedo deadly close ranged units into the enemy; Lasher Maulerfiends, Spear Enlightened, Screamers, etc. Horrors and Rubrics are very tough units, and whatever you Warptime forward can be buffed with Weaver of Fates for some extra protection. Unlike, say, a Khorne army, Tzeentch has the durability in its favour at the cost of some of the hitting power, though based on what we've seen Tzeentch can still hit extremely hard. Tzaangor blobs with the AP buff from the Mutalith and the other usual buffs are essentially tougher Bloodletters, down to the fight twice stratagem that Tzaangors get at 2CP compared to every other factions' 3CP fight twice stratagem. Scarab Occult get some good mileage out of the Mutalith as well, notably, and provide similar firepower and (against Damage 1) durability to Rubrics for similar points paired with far superior melee stats. Strength 5 power swords with VotLW will make mince meat of most things, and Prescience is amazing on the Scarabs given their good shooting and melee stats overall. Tzeentch armies also get ridiculously cheap Battalion detachments thanks to Brimstone Horrors, models that are also perfect for bubble-wrap purposes, while adding a few extra Daemon spells to your army. After that, the rest of a Tzeentch army will start blasting you with an onslaught of offensive psychic powers, and the Mutaliths are no slouches in combat and, based on what we know of their melee stats, will chew through infantry and other light targets really quickly.
In theory. The synergy across the army as it stands is great, now all we need are some more psychic buffs for our Thousand Sons from relics, stratagems and Warlord Traits and we are all set
Another note, unlike regular Tzaangors and things like Bloodletters or Maulerfiends, the Enlightened have the Fly keyword. Those poor Hemlocks won't know what hit them. The 2D3 S12 D2 auto hits on Overwatch will hurt but a unit of 9 Spear Enlightened with Weaver of Fates/the other buffs should still have enough in them to break it in half. Other fliers are even more vulnerable!
Caederes wrote: Another note, unlike regular Tzaangors and things like Bloodletters or Maulerfiends, the Enlightened have the Fly keyword. Those poor Hemlocks won't know what hit them.
"Let us rain death upon these twisted followers of the Great Deceiver...wait, are those bird-men on flying discs that are going to attack us with spears and arr" CRASH
I think my biggest stumbling block on embracing and loving the melee version of the Enlightened, depending on cost, is stuff like Chariot heralds/screamers. very similar damage profile, movement, but less buff dependent in general. It'll depend on the unit cost for sure.
the_scotsman wrote: I think my biggest stumbling block on embracing and loving the melee version of the Enlightened, depending on cost, is stuff like Chariot heralds/screamers. very similar damage profile, movement, but less buff dependent in general. It'll depend on the unit cost for sure.
Its 17 for Bow enlightened, and supposedly 16 for glaives.
With a Shaman nearby, it activates on a 5+. If Prescience can be cast on these guys? 4+.
Only 3 wounds from 3.6 of these guys against T7 though. It would be hard to get them and all their support close enough. They'll absolutely shed anything in the way though.
the_scotsman wrote: I think my biggest stumbling block on embracing and loving the melee version of the Enlightened, depending on cost, is stuff like Chariot heralds/screamers. very similar damage profile, movement, but less buff dependent in general. It'll depend on the unit cost for sure.
Its 17 for Bow enlightened, and supposedly 16 for glaives.
Hmm. Well, at 16ppm, it's pretty safe to say that spear enlightened are just solidly better screamers of tzeentch. Better defenses (because you get 2 for every 1 screamer), better offense both buffed and unbuffed. Probable 4" less movement, no slashing attack, and I guess slightly less ability to hide because they're much taller, but still.
Hmm. Well, at 16ppm, it's pretty safe to say that spear enlightened are just solidly better screamers of tzeentch. Better defenses (because you get 2 for every 1 screamer), better offense both buffed and unbuffed. Probable 4" less movement, no slashing attack, and I guess slightly less ability to hide because they're much taller, but still.
They're only D2 on the charge, which might end up being irrelevant sometimes, but it is important to note.
oh, that's very true. Screamers do have a very nice tendency to tie up a vehicle they can't kill since you only need 1 on each side of it.
Screamer buffs are also things you're highly likely to have sitting around anyway (vs tzaangor shaman, which you're probably buying just to be that +to hit buff. Screamers get buffed to S7 by heralds, they can get Boon/Flickering Flames as well as the same to-hit buffs from Daemon Princes and Mutaliths. Their biggest problem is there's no way to shift the stupid 4+ to hit they have base, besides the DP reroll 1s.
Rules could be the most OP gak of this edition, but that thing is still a Fantasy monster. It doesn't belong to 40k. Warhammer 40k equivalent to fantasy beasts and monsters are (for chaos at least), demon engines. That is not.
And i see that rules-wise, the Codex: Tzaangors is still in good health and full steam ahead...
Warpspy wrote: Rules could be the most OPsh*t of this edition, but that thing is still a Fantasy monster. It doesn't belong to 40k. Warhammer 40k equivalent to fantasy beasts and monsters are (for chaos at least), demon engines. That is not. And i see that rules-wise, the Codex: Tzaangors is still in good health and full steam ahead...
Please keep all bitching in the General Discussions containment thread.
With the new stratagems, does anyone think they'll be deep striking some pure daemons? I imagine Horrors are still going to be coming out of the warp 9 inches away and dumping tons of attacks, followed by Sorcerers / Rubrics behind them. I don't see a reason NOT to do this other than you may get surrounded in the following turn. A Tzaangor herd charging up the field or being ported forward may fix that. You pretty much redeploy your entire army in the middle of the board.
on topic, while I understand Scarabs and Rubrics didn't get a points drop, I am hoping the special weapons did. They were never worth the points before, and it would be nice if it is worth it to take them now.
Sasori wrote: on topic, while I understand Scarabs and Rubrics didn't get a points drop, I am hoping the special weapons did. They were never worth the points before, and it would be nice if it is worth it to take them now.
Our special weapons are where the CSMs prices are, they did "drop" technically but in actuality its what most people have been using this entire time.
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Warpspy wrote: Rules could be the most OPsh*t of this edition, but that thing is still a Fantasy monster. It doesn't belong to 40k. Warhammer 40k equivalent to fantasy beasts and monsters are (for chaos at least), demon engines. That is not.
And i see that rules-wise, the Codex: Tzaangors is still in good health and full steam ahead...
I agree but this is not the place to discuss that. There is a thread in general go there.
Sasori wrote: on topic, while I understand Scarabs and Rubrics didn't get a points drop, I am hoping the special weapons did. They were never worth the points before, and it would be nice if it is worth it to take them now.
Our special weapons are where the CSMs prices are, they did "drop" technically but in actuality its what most people have been using this entire time.
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Warpspy wrote: Rules could be the most OPsh*t of this edition, but that thing is still a Fantasy monster. It doesn't belong to 40k. Warhammer 40k equivalent to fantasy beasts and monsters are (for chaos at least), demon engines. That is not.
And i see that rules-wise, the Codex: Tzaangors is still in good health and full steam ahead...
I agree but this is not the place to discuss that. There is a thread in general go there.
Just curious, but where was it confirmed that the Special Weapons are the same price? I saw no price drop for Rubrics/Scarab but nothing mentioned for the weapons.
Just curious, but where was it confirmed that the Special Weapons are the same price? I saw no price drop for Rubrics/Scarab but nothing mentioned for the weapons.
Just curious, but where was it confirmed that the Special Weapons are the same price? I saw no price drop for Rubrics/Scarab but nothing mentioned for the weapons.
Not confirmed, but a safe assumption.
If that is the case, then it should be be treated as confirmed.
Warpspy wrote: Rules could be the most OPsh*t of this edition, but that thing is still a Fantasy monster. It doesn't belong to 40k. Warhammer 40k equivalent to fantasy beasts and monsters are (for chaos at least), demon engines. That is not.
And i see that rules-wise, the Codex: Tzaangors is still in good health and full steam ahead...
Yeah, chaos doesn't exist in both fantasy and 40k because....oh....wait........
*shakes head*
*Public announcement!*
Chaos are not, I repeat NOT allowed to have monsters in 40k.
Seriously though, have you read any fluff? Its like a crazy big tzeentchian spawn monster. Id like to hear your explanation as to why it shouldn't exist in 40k
I like the fact that TSons have a lot more unit options now available to them, and combined with daemons it should allow for pretty varied forces and still gives you the choice of taking just rubric forces
As for now, what do you see as the best anti-tank solution for TS and Daemons? Personally I found the Exalted flamers to be the best, they shoot a lot and are untargettable because characters.
It's confirmed the Thousand Sons Tzeentch Daemon Prince natively casts 2 powers, knows 2 powers and can access all three spell lores in the book. Haechi wasn't kidding, they might be the best Daemon Princes of any legion. Daemon Prince with 4+ invulnerable save and both casting and knowing an extra power.
Mutalith isn't quite as strong as has been made out.
WS is only 4+, the powers aren't automatic - go off on 2+, 3+ or 4+ depending on how wounded it is - only 4+ armour save and Toughness 7 (as I thought), the range doubling is there but once you're at that half health (so 7 or less wounds) rolling 1s to manifest the vortex powers causes it to suffer a mortal wound, and its Explodes inflicts D6 mortal wounds.
Still really good for 150 though. T7 14 Wounds 4+ 5++ its melee attacks are decent, the auras are still reliable even if not guaranteed, etc.
Magnus got a stealth buff, he ignores mortal wounds from Perils on a 2+ like Farseers do.
The range of Magnus' aura is 9", I can't remember but was that the case in the Index? Notable if it is a buff.
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xeen wrote: Are the aspiring sorcerers the price of a rubric or SoT?
Yes, though the wargear costs are obviously different. The change was already made in the Chaos Marine codex for Rubrics, they've now done the same for Scarabs.
Caederes wrote: Magnus got a stealth buff, he ignores mortal wounds from Perils on a 2+ like Farseers do.
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xeen wrote: Are the aspiring sorcerers the price of a rubric or SoT?
Yes, though the wargear costs are obviously different. The change was already made in the Chaos Marine codex for Rubrics, they've now done the same for Scarabs.
1. Re-roll failed Deny the Witch tests.
2. Reduce all Damage suffered by 1.
3. Advance and charge, can re-roll failed charge rolls.
4. Knows one extra power.
5. Adds 1 to invulnerable saves.
6. Adds 1 to psychic tests.
Basically, you can either go for a super mobile Daemon Prince, a really durable one or make one of your psykers a baby Ahriman with the casting bonus.
Before looking at relics and stratagems, you can have three psykers with innate casting bonuses (Magnus, Ahriman and whatever psyker you make your Warlord).
1. Re-roll failed Deny the Witch tests.
2. Reduce all Damage suffered by 1.
3. Advance and charge, can re-roll failed charge rolls.
4. Knows one extra power.
5. Adds 1 to invulnerable saves.
6. Adds 1 to psychic tests.
Basically, you can either go for a super mobile Daemon Prince, a really durable one or make one of your psykers a baby Ahriman with the casting bonus.
Before looking at relics and stratagems, you can have three psykers with innate casting bonuses (Magnus, Ahriman and whatever psyker you make your Warlord).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Stratagem wise, we have:
Generic
Linebreaker Bombardment
Fire Frenzy
Daemonforge
Relics of the (insert Legion)
Killshot
Blasphemous Machines
Chaos Familiar
The Great Sorcerer (the one that lets you cast an extra power for 1CP)
Veterans of the Long War
Boon of Tzeentch (looks to be the same as the one from Chaos Space Marines with slight variations on some of the results)
Unique
Coruscating Beam (3CP - shooting phase, can only be used by a Thousand Sons Warlord that did not move in the prior preceding Movement phase, has an unlimited range and is restricted only by visibility, pick two points that are 9" apart and every unit under it suffers D3 mortal wounds on a D6 roll of 4+, increasing to 5+ if the unit being rolled for is a character)
Cabalistic Focus (as per Chapter Approved)
Warpflame Gargoyles (as per WHC article)
Sorcerous Pact (1CP - roll 4D6 for a summon roll, character will not suffer mortal wounds for that summon roll, only works if you're summoning Tzeentch Daemons)
Webway Infiltration (as per WHC article)
Soul Flare (1CP - when an Aspiring or Scarab Occult Sorcerer dies, roll a D6 for each enemy unit within 6" and on a 4+ (6+ if it's a character or vehicle) that unit suffers a mortal wound)
Fated Mutation (as per WHC article)
Vengeance for Prospero (1CP - Fight phase, Death to the False Emperor triggers for a single unit on 4+ when attacking Space Wolves)
The Flesh Change (as per WHC article)
Inferno Bolts (1CP - pick a combi-bolter/combi-weapon or heavy bolter or twin heavy bolter on a Vehicle, that weapon gets AP-2, only affects the bolt profile of a combi-weapon)
Baleful Vortex (1CP - pick a Mutalith that has resolved a Mutalith power, it automatically casts another one that is randomly determined, can be the same one it cast earlier)
Cycle of Slaughter (as per WHC article)
Coruscating Beam is expensive but it's fairly deadly, the "unlimited" range and affecting everything under a line that is 9" long is pretty darned good. Nullified by boards with lots of terrain though.
If you're fighting Space Wolves, Vengeance for Prospero + Prescience means you'll be generating extra attacks on 3s to-hit with something like Scarab Occult
Seer's Bane (replaces a force sword or power sword, S: user, AP-3, Damage: D3, Strength of the user is doubled when fighting a psyker or unit where at least one model has a Leadership characteristic of 9 or higher)
Dark Matter Crystal (end of Movement phase once per battle you can pick the bearer or a friendly Thousand Sons infantry unit within 12", they are removed and placed anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" from enemy units, does not count as Falling Back)
Helm of the Third Eye (if the wearer is on the battlefield and you are battle-forged, roll a D6 each time your opponent uses a stratagem; on a 5+ you gain a Command Point)
Prismatic Stave (replaces force staff, Strength +2 AP-1 Damage D3, bearer can shoot and charge even after Falling Back)
Helm of the Third Eye and Dark Matter Crystal are must takes, the rest are situational. Spending 1CP to take both in every game is a no brainer as the Helm should net you at least 2-3 back every game, paying for itself, and the mobility offered by the Crystal is incredible for any list.
Disappointed that the Scrolls are supposed to be the psyker assistance relic, as others have discussed the chances of them actually activating on high cast value spells are slim.
Wulfey wrote: Daemonprince
Daemonprince
3x30 tzaangors
Tzaangor Shaman
+ as many tzaangor arrow shooters as you can afford
2x Cheapest daemon HQ you can take
3x3 Nurglings
Magnus
Codex: Tzaangor. Or Tzeentch. Your call.
Why ever take rubrics? They are junk. 30x tzaangor bombs hits on 2+ from an aura, and get +1 to wound from the strategem. And they charge on an 8" off a deepstrike. Can you can warptime them. And you can deepstrike them from either strategems or relics. What a joke. hitting an 8" charge on 2d6 rerolling 1 dice from a CP is like 70-80%. And the other tzaangor bomb can warptime. And if you have CP, they fight twice for 2CP.
Wulfey wrote: Daemonprince
Daemonprince
3x30 tzaangors
Tzaangor Shaman
+ as many tzaangor arrow shooters as you can afford
2x Cheapest daemon HQ you can take
3x3 Nurglings
Magnus
Codex: Tzaangor. Or Tzeentch. Your call.
Why ever take rubrics? They are junk. 30x tzaangor bombs hits on 2+ from an aura, and get +1 to wound from the strategem. And they charge on an 8" off a deepstrike. Can you can warptime them. And you can deepstrike them from either strategems or relics. What a joke. hitting an 8" charge on 2d6 rerolling 1 dice from a CP is like 70-80%. And the other tzaangor bomb can warptime. And if you have CP, they fight twice for 2CP.
Haha, no I totally agree with you. This has been the whole point for the 22+ pages of Thousand Sons are dead. Rubrics and Scarabs are worthless and GW just wants to push more Gors to make more money.
I'm actually writing to them about this one. This is beyond unreasonable.
Upgrade sprues sold separately are stupidly priced in general. Some of the Deathwatch kits actually saw a drop in price when the sprue was included, while most BA and DA versions of Primaris squads include 2x of the upgrade sprues at no extra cost, while Ultramarines did not.
Well, time to get mad I guess. ZERO synergy options designed for Rubricae. Meanwhile tzaangors get +1 to hit and the cheapest fight twice stratagem in the game.
I take back what I said before, this is in fact Codex: Tzaangors.
Arachnofiend wrote: Well, time to get mad I guess. ZERO synergy options designed for Rubricae. Meanwhile tzaangors get +1 to hit and the cheapest fight twice stratagem in the game.
I take back what I said before, this is in fact Codex: Tzaangors.
The question is how much did you spend a little over a year ago on an army that has little to no use now?
. but nothing on its aura buff so far
. (but then again when i go to the club for a fun game it's usually narrative games, so there the balance is skewed anyway)
