Ghool wrote: Uuhhh….so literally no or little QC, and uncured and not even an iso bath before they sell them.
So what happened to new player friendly?
This is something else….
Ouch. There is no excuse for that. It isn't that bloody hard to get prints nice and clean and fully cured in a UV booth. Sounds like they're just rushing crap out, which is kinda par for the course.
Ghool wrote: Uuhhh….so literally no or little QC, and uncured and not even an iso bath before they sell them.
So what happened to new player friendly?
This is something else….
Ouch. There is no excuse for that. It isn't that bloody hard to get prints nice and clean and fully cured in a UV booth. Sounds like they're just rushing crap out, which is kinda par for the course.
When they’ve stated they were working on MK4 for a year, all one has to do is look at the beta rules.
After reading this I’ll be giving these models a hard pass.
I’m out.
Rushing order fulfillment for GenCon always has the absolute best results.
Though usually it just involves companies rushing a draft pdf through printing, which usually results in a exclusive print run that's full of typos or has crap binding.
Ghool wrote: Uuhhh….so literally no or little QC, and uncured and not even an iso bath before they sell them.
So what happened to new player friendly?
This is something else….
Ouch. There is no excuse for that. It isn't that bloody hard to get prints nice and clean and fully cured in a UV booth. Sounds like they're just rushing crap out, which is kinda par for the course.
When they’ve stated they were working on MK4 for a year, all one has to do is look at the beta rules.
After reading this I’ll be giving these models a hard pass.
I’m out.
They made the same claims about Mk 3 being in testing for a long time. Funny, I was an Infernal and never saw any of it, then I quit and like 3 months later Mk 3 comes out. Yeah...
It's clear that they haven't brought in anyone with any real experience with 3d printing tech, either. My guess is that they don't want to pay (or can't) a reasonable wage for someone that actually has that knowledge (grapevine is that they've always under-paid in this industry for the most part), but not doing that is going to wind up biting them, I think.
I wanted PP to make a comeback, really. But it seems they're still making the same mistakes that got them into this mess.
Funny enough, the report that both of these are in response to is actually fairly positive overall from an experienced printer who mostly reports everything as "things I was doing wrong last year and how to fix it". Richie too, has a ton of experience and that's some great advice in general when working with resin. Definitely hoping since this stuff is clearly being made on demand these quality steps are being addresses as the mail order stuff is being worked on.
LunarSol wrote: Funny enough, the report that both of these are in response to is actually fairly positive overall from an experienced printer who mostly reports everything as "things I was doing wrong last year and how to fix it". Richie too, has a ton of experience and that's some great advice in general when working with resin. Definitely hoping since this stuff is clearly being made on demand these quality steps are being addresses as the mail order stuff is being worked on.
Thing is, IMO if they are going to make the big announcement about their new production methods, etc., then these are all things they should have figured out before making the decision to even move to that process, much less announce it. Unlike PDFs of beta rules, you can't exactly "beta" physical products.
LunarSol wrote: Funny enough, the report that both of these are in response to is actually fairly positive overall from an experienced printer who mostly reports everything as "things I was doing wrong last year and how to fix it". Richie too, has a ton of experience and that's some great advice in general when working with resin. Definitely hoping since this stuff is clearly being made on demand these quality steps are being addresses as the mail order stuff is being worked on.
Which essentially states that they a need another year before they work out the kinks.
Or have enough experience knowing how to produce the stuff.
Funny thing is, I have zero experience with 3D printing and I know that selling products in the state they’re selling them in is unacceptable. But hey, I’m just some dude, not and experienced 3D printer….
In contrast to what they say I think PP is washing things for too long - 30mins in an ultrasonic after a wash and scrub is a huge amount of time.
Certainly if they were using resins with IPA (I assume they are using water washable resin as they are using water) the resin would be degrading after 30mins.
I wonder if that is the cause of some of the reported softness instead of things being underexposed.
The frosting is certainly where they've either not cleaned it right, or more likely where they've not let the resin dry fully after washing. Ergo where its been rushed into the curing setup.
I do agree these are things they really should have nailed down and resolved before going into production and certainly should have spotted during quality control. If not just because its 3D print resin with health hazards when not fully cured; but also because its a relaunch and these should be the best of the best bar none. Better to take less stock that hits great than loads that misses the mark.
It's a worry. I want PP to do well.
I want Warmachine and Hordes to do well - I want to see this succeed
I can understand the desire to use a water washable resin (and, given they're washing with water, I hope they are...), but honestly, most of those are inferior with respect to durability from everything I've read. Also, they hinted that they're doing the curing while submerged in water. I've heard some folks advocate that, but again, that is kind of an "up for debate" technique. Some say it helps, some say it doesn't make any difference.
Curing whilst in water, from what I know, works well because the water scatters the light so it can help cure everywhere. The main problem is contamination.
All that water they are using is contaminated with resin - proper disposal should be evaporating the water off and curing any residue. Including the water used for curing.
That said the fact they are getting lots of frosting suggests there are problems in their workflow. In general most of the people I know don't bother with using water for curing; they dry the model off and cure it.
Just re-read their description of their cleaning process. I think a big part of it is they're WAY over doing it, and it's quite possibly damaging the resin. Even assuming water washable, which ok, fine, 30 minutes in an ultrasonic is far, far too much. They tout their cleaning standards "exceed the manufacturer's recommendation," but that's not necessarily a good thing, since leaving stuff in a not-quite-cured state that long in liquid (not to mention the initial scrub then hanging out in water until the ultrasonic) could easily be deteriorating the resin.
They really should've reached out to more of the 3d printer community. I feel like if they had, there'd be a lot less issues with their stuff, since most of what is happening seems to be "rookie mistakes."
Ghool wrote: Uuhhh….so literally no or little QC, and uncured and not even an iso bath before they sell them.
So what happened to new player friendly?
This is something else….
...say I wanted to buy these. If, after I buy their minis, I have to go through my regular 3d print cleaning/curing process... why did I buy the actual physical models, again, instead of actually printing them myself? It seems nuts.
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Valander wrote: Just re-read their description of their cleaning process. I think a big part of it is they're WAY over doing it, and it's quite possibly damaging the resin. Even assuming water washable, which ok, fine, 30 minutes in an ultrasonic is far, far too much. They tout their cleaning standards "exceed the manufacturer's recommendation," but that's not necessarily a good thing, since leaving stuff in a not-quite-cured state that long in liquid (not to mention the initial scrub then hanging out in water until the ultrasonic) could easily be deteriorating the resin.
They really should've reached out to more of the 3d printer community. I feel like if they had, there'd be a lot less issues with their stuff, since most of what is happening seems to be "rookie mistakes."
Furthermore, if they have properly cured the resin after the cleaning... how can there still be uncured resin in solid parts?
Furthermore, if they have properly cured the resin after the cleaning... how can there still be uncured resin in solid parts?
UV light can only penetrate so far into the model.
This is why if you have a hollow region inside the model which trapped wet resin during printing, that resin will stay wet and will slowly react with the cured resin and, at some point weeks/months later will burst out cracking the model.
In practice with a thick solid bit of resin the resin is fine once fully cured. Yes the internal resin isn't "fully" cured, but its cured enough that it won't react and cause splitting issues. The only time it becomes a risk is when you cut the model open (eg for converting).
stonehorse wrote: As the EU has very strict rules regarding imports, I wonder if this could throw a massive spanner in the works to their distribution in the EU?
The idea of the 3D printing is that they'd not have to import them; they'd produce locally within the EU. Though I don't know if PP has a setup in the EU. I know they set one up in the UK.
Regardless of the model production issues (while important), I haven't seen a whole lot of chatter about the beta rules they put out. A few posts here and there, but there is not a lot of buzz about it in my "usual" hobby circles online. I think that will be more telling too, probably after Gen Con, when more folks start messing with the beta rules and considering those along with the model quality as to whether it's "worth it" to get into/back-into Warmachine. It feels like this is kind of a make or break moment with Mk 4 launch, and if it doesn't succeed, I'm not sure how much longer PP can survive on their other product lines.
Probably not, because they'd be making the minis in the EU so not importing anything
although if they were selling minis contaminated with still liquid resin they'd have potential health and safety issues, but no more so than any other small resin casting house where things occasionally go wrong (which can be down to mistakes on the casting side or dodgy resin batches from the supplier)
Edit: I suspect the lack of comment on the rules is that very few of us here (with some notable exceptions who have commented) probably haven't got a good enough handle on what the game played like in MK3 to really say much useful
unlike a brand new small skirmish game where you basically supply whatever minis you want (so the rules and background themselves start off as the draw), this is going to depend on the minis to draw people back in
stonehorse wrote: As the EU has very strict rules regarding imports, I wonder if this could throw a massive spanner in the works to their distribution in the EU?
The idea of the 3D printing is that they'd not have to import them; they'd produce locally within the EU. Though I don't know if PP has a setup in the EU. I know they set one up in the UK.
I understand that is the theory behind switching to 3D prints, but they don't have a setup in the EU. So until/if they do it will have to be imported. I imagine that any production they do within the EU will be sold fully cured (due to strict regulations within the EU). Which would I imagine increase the time and cost involved in the process, meaning a more expensive end product for those within the EU.
It shouldn't increase any costs, the resin they ship should be fully cured before shipping. There's no good reason at all to deliver part-cured resin into the hands of customers.
Part-cured is toxic and your average model buyer is not going to own a pair of nitrile gloves to open their box of new models and then leave them in the sun to cure.
Heck even those who do 3D printing will not expect to have to do that. They'd expect fully cured models in the box, ready to clean up for
building, priming and painting. Just like any metal, resin or plastic model.
Overread wrote: As GW shows - rules are secondary to models.
To a degree, true. But PP's always been using their rules as a strong point, so if they fail there as well as the model quality (which, they already had some bad rep for some there), well what's left?
Overread wrote: It shouldn't increase any costs, the resin they ship should be fully cured before shipping. There's no good reason at all to deliver part-cured resin into the hands of customers.
Part-cured is toxic and your average model buyer is not going to own a pair of nitrile gloves to open their box of new models and then leave them in the sun to cure.
Heck even those who do 3D printing will not expect to have to do that. They'd expect fully cured models in the box, ready to clean up for
building, priming and painting. Just like any metal, resin or plastic model.
I agree, but from reading the previous posts in this thread it seems that there have been reports of the models people receiving at GenCon recently where not fully cured and had issues.
Overread wrote: It shouldn't increase any costs, the resin they ship should be fully cured before shipping. There's no good reason at all to deliver part-cured resin into the hands of customers.
Unless they're rushing to get shipments done and out. Which is basically what just happened getting stuff to GenCon.
'No good reason' isn't the issue. That it happened at all is.
Ghool wrote: Uuhhh….so literally no or little QC, and uncured and not even an iso bath before they sell them.
So what happened to new player friendly?
This is something else….
Ouch. There is no excuse for that. It isn't that bloody hard to get prints nice and clean and fully cured in a UV booth. Sounds like they're just rushing crap out, which is kinda par for the course.
I get that it is bad, but in the same aspect, GW sells codex's and rule books which seem to have never been proof read before going to print, FW quality is crap, and finecast was a joke.
I think PP are going in the right direction, 3D printing models, having them come with all options and magnets, giving out rules for free. Sounds heads and tails above GW that charge for everything.
Comparing GW to PP is not really a valid comparison anymore (if it ever was). GW certainly does a lot of gak that really feels bad, but they're an industry juggernaut so they can get away with it; any bad feelings from some of that is overcome by their sheer volume of customers. PP, on the other hand, is clearly struggling from their heyday (they're less than 1/2 the staff they were when Warmachine was still popular), so mistakes like that will hurt them a lot more.
Ghool wrote: Uuhhh….so literally no or little QC, and uncured and not even an iso bath before they sell them.
So what happened to new player friendly?
This is something else….
Ouch. There is no excuse for that. It isn't that bloody hard to get prints nice and clean and fully cured in a UV booth. Sounds like they're just rushing crap out, which is kinda par for the course.
I get that it is bad, but in the same aspect, GW sells codex's and rule books which seem to have never been proof read before going to print, FW quality is crap, and finecast was a joke.
I think PP are going in the right direction, 3D printing models, having them come with all options and magnets, giving out rules for free. Sounds heads and tails above GW that charge for everything.
On paper it certainly sounds to be the right direction. However, how it is implemented will be crucial. As the new edition is gutting the current collection, they will have to do a lot of hard work to regain the trust.
PP, don't have a great track record.
That all being said, if they can pull it off, and do a great job of it, I imagine they will do well.
I do think it is an interesting, and viable, direction as well. However, as they say, "the devil's in the details." It all comes down to execution. They seem to be off to a bit of a rocky start, though.
Valander wrote: Comparing GW to PP is not really a valid comparison anymore (if it ever was). GW certainly does a lot of gak that really feels bad, but they're an industry juggernaut so they can get away with it; any bad feelings from some of that is overcome by their sheer volume of customers. PP, on the other hand, is clearly struggling from their heyday (they're less than 1/2 the staff they were when Warmachine was still popular), so mistakes like that will hurt them a lot more.
I still remember reading the financials threads here for GW during the bad old days of 6e-7e. Certainly they were not in the same Hail Mary, do-or-die position PP seemingly is in right now, but at their lowest point GW was clearly not in good shape as so many players jumped shipped to WMH or other games.
No one's actually confirmed the uncured resin thing. There was a single post by a single person claiming it. Privateer and Matt Wilson himself asked him to bring the models to them to replace them and figure out what happened. Per Privateer he never did, nor did he post on it again. Privateer has posted their curing process which is beyond the recommendations for their resin, but sounds like they are doing to reinforce the process going forward and will make an Insider on the handling of resin (mind you, they've been using non-3d printed resin for years now). I am not saying the guy lied, but it is weird that no one else has had that issue of the hundreds of boxes they sold so far.
No one's actually confirmed the uncured resin thing. There was a single post by a single person claiming it. Privateer and Matt Wilson himself asked him to bring the models to them to replace them and figure out what happened. Per Privateer he never did, nor did he post on it again. Privateer has posted their curing process which is beyond the recommendations for their resin, but sounds like they are doing to reinforce the process going forward and will make an Insider on the handling of resin (mind you, they've been using non-3d printed resin for years now). I am not saying the guy lied, but it is weird that no one else has had that issue of the hundreds of boxes they sold so far.
How do you know no one else had issues? Just because people dont post things online doesn't mean there are no issues... Furthermore why would they? if the first thing some people do is insinuate they are liars... Not cool dude.
I mean...PP is offering a 100% satisfaction guarantee on these preview boxes, so if people are not returning them or letting PP know there is an issue I would assume that people are satisfied with their purchase.
Uncured resin strikes me as too much of a noob mistake for a company of PP's size. This isn't their first batch of models, so having some with creamy centers would be a bit shocking.
I would be interested in seeing this guy's models, though, to see what the issue is.
tneva82 wrote: Well if no one complains to pp can there really be much of issue?
Or are pp customers just happy to buy anything regardless of quality? Quality can be junk and customers don't complain?
Not sure but everyone has free will to do whatever they want if they are not satisfied... in the end people express their satisfaction levels by investing or not on the product.
I refuse to buy forge world, finecast, PP plastic...etc etc. If people do that then no need to fill a complain form.
I doubt PP clients are happy regardless quality, since you can see the state of the company today.
No one's actually confirmed the uncured resin thing. There was a single post by a single person claiming it. Privateer and Matt Wilson himself asked him to bring the models to them to replace them and figure out what happened. Per Privateer he never did, nor did he post on it again. Privateer has posted their curing process which is beyond the recommendations for their resin, but sounds like they are doing to reinforce the process going forward and will make an Insider on the handling of resin (mind you, they've been using non-3d printed resin for years now). I am not saying the guy lied, but it is weird that no one else has had that issue of the hundreds of boxes they sold so far.
How do you know no one else had issues? Just because people dont post things online doesn't mean there are no issues... Furthermore why would they? if the first thing some people do is insinuate they are liars... Not cool dude.
I
No, the first thing people did was assume it was truthful. The post was clearly made in context of being a follow-up, that no evidence was presented to back the claim. That which is claimed without evidence may be dismissed without evidence, which is what this is about. Besides, the claim is that PP are lying a bit the product they delivered, as they claimed it was cured resin, so even then the logic doesn't work out.
No one's actually confirmed the uncured resin thing. There was a single post by a single person claiming it. Privateer and Matt Wilson himself asked him to bring the models to them to replace them and figure out what happened. Per Privateer he never did, nor did he post on it again. Privateer has posted their curing process which is beyond the recommendations for their resin, but sounds like they are doing to reinforce the process going forward and will make an Insider on the handling of resin (mind you, they've been using non-3d printed resin for years now). I am not saying the guy lied, but it is weird that no one else has had that issue of the hundreds of boxes they sold so far.
How do you know no one else had issues? Just because people dont post things online doesn't mean there are no issues... Furthermore why would they? if the first thing some people do is insinuate they are liars... Not cool dude.
I
No, the first thing people did was assume it was truthful. The post was clearly made in context of being a follow-up, that no evidence was presented to back the claim. That which is claimed without evidence may be dismissed without evidence, which is what this is about. Besides, the claim is that PP are lying a bit the product they delivered, as they claimed it was cured resin, so even then the logic doesn't work out.
You do realise "The past experience" some have with PP correct? Its not difficult to understand why people assume its a truthful claim. Its not like these claims have not context.
Personally Im reserving my judgment when I actually have a mini in my hands since.- I have PP saying this is the best thing for them, no relevant independent reviews, only dodgy pictures that show some hiccups etc... So yeah I will wait and see by myself since PP does not even go to the trouble of sending these to important channels that would showcase it for them...
Its one of those things you need to check it for yourself since theres not much info shared.
I bear them no particular ill-will, but guys are clearly done. This rollout is a final swing for the fences on limited funds. Suggest folks accept it and move on.
they might well not be at gencon for more than a day so can't return the stuff (or even, depending on how/when they're traveling not be in a position to respond)
and it could also be somebody with a particular sensitivity to a particular resin, i know there is one resin caster i've had stuff from that i reacted badly to but friends who handled the same batch of stuff didn't and there was nothing visibly wrong with the casts (I reported my reaction to the casting company so if it became a pattern they'd know to change their resin but they said they'd not had any other reports)
Rivetbull wrote: I bear them no particular ill-will, but guys are clearly done. This rollout is a final swing for the fences on limited funds. Suggest folks accept it and move on.
I think the industry really needs PP and their range so its important to give them benefit of the doubt. I really hope they succeed.
Many projects on limited funds from other companies have good results so this can be it for PP. Most companies would probably love to have warmachine legacy has their starting point.
No one's actually confirmed the uncured resin thing. There was a single post by a single person claiming it. Privateer and Matt Wilson himself asked him to bring the models to them to replace them and figure out what happened. Per Privateer he never did, nor did he post on it again. Privateer has posted their curing process which is beyond the recommendations for their resin, but sounds like they are doing to reinforce the process going forward and will make an Insider on the handling of resin (mind you, they've been using non-3d printed resin for years now). I am not saying the guy lied, but it is weird that no one else has had that issue of the hundreds of boxes they sold so far.
How do you know no one else had issues? Just because people dont post things online doesn't mean there are no issues... Furthermore why would they? if the first thing some people do is insinuate they are liars... Not cool dude.
I
Why would you immediately assume this uncured resin thing happened more than once? Maybe it did or maybe it did not, but you have zero data.
I quit playing Warmachine years ago due to both the rules and models so I am no PP apologist, but this is a lot of piling on with an amazing lack of foundation.
No one's actually confirmed the uncured resin thing. There was a single post by a single person claiming it. Privateer and Matt Wilson himself asked him to bring the models to them to replace them and figure out what happened. Per Privateer he never did, nor did he post on it again. Privateer has posted their curing process which is beyond the recommendations for their resin, but sounds like they are doing to reinforce the process going forward and will make an Insider on the handling of resin (mind you, they've been using non-3d printed resin for years now). I am not saying the guy lied, but it is weird that no one else has had that issue of the hundreds of boxes they sold so far.
How do you know no one else had issues? Just because people dont post things online doesn't mean there are no issues... Furthermore why would they? if the first thing some people do is insinuate they are liars... Not cool dude.
I
Why would you immediately assume this uncured resin thing happened more than once? Maybe it did or maybe it did not, but you have zero data.
I quit playing Warmachine years ago due to both the rules and models so I am no PP apologist, but this is a lot of piling on with an amazing lack of foundation.
Where do you see me personally assuming anything? When the report initially came in I dont remember saying anything... and on the thing you quoted im asking how do you know theres no other bad experiences/ reports? We dont know nothing! - thats the point...
Yeah, so it should be dismissed, not considered as potentially valid. Were the state of things in the age of misinformation different we could have the luxury of treating claims made with the benefit of the doubt but these days giving any legitimacy to claims made without evidence just ends up feeding the problem :(
Rivetbull wrote: I bear them no particular ill-will, but guys are clearly done. This rollout is a final swing for the fences on limited funds. Suggest folks accept it and move on.
I think the industry really needs PP and their range so its important to give them benefit of the doubt. I really hope they succeed.
Many projects on limited funds from other companies have good results so this can be it for PP. Most companies would probably love to have warmachine legacy has their starting point.
The industry has been fine without them for the past four years or so, if not longer. I think it'll be okay
No one's actually confirmed the uncured resin thing. There was a single post by a single person claiming it. Privateer and Matt Wilson himself asked him to bring the models to them to replace them and figure out what happened. Per Privateer he never did, nor did he post on it again. Privateer has posted their curing process which is beyond the recommendations for their resin, but sounds like they are doing to reinforce the process going forward and will make an Insider on the handling of resin (mind you, they've been using non-3d printed resin for years now). I am not saying the guy lied, but it is weird that no one else has had that issue of the hundreds of boxes they sold so far.
How do you know no one else had issues? Just because people dont post things online doesn't mean there are no issues... Furthermore why would they? if the first thing some people do is insinuate they are liars... Not cool dude.
I
Poisonous spiders have been hatching out of all boxes of Kill Team products (I will not be addressing this issue again).
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: they might well not be at gencon for more than a day so can't return the stuff (or even, depending on how/when they're traveling not be in a position to respond)
and it could also be somebody with a particular sensitivity to a particular resin, i know there is one resin caster i've had stuff from that i reacted badly to but friends who handled the same batch of stuff didn't and there was nothing visibly wrong with the casts (I reported my reaction to the casting company so if it became a pattern they'd know to change their resin but they said they'd not had any other reports)
I'm one of those people. Touching uncured resin makes be break out really bad for weeks, thought I had chemical burns the first time it happened (which it might be to some degree as I do get a lot of blister like things), and even after washing or curing something I can get a mild rash for a few days afterwards if I hold it too long. Letting the print sit for a few days after the second cure usually is enough to make them safe for me. My Brother-in-Law, on the other hand, doesn't use gloves or anything protective (outside of eyewear) when working with UV resin and it doesn't affect him in any way.
I just have to be really careful when working with my own printers.
Valander wrote: Regardless of the model production issues (while important), I haven't seen a whole lot of chatter about the beta rules they put out. A few posts here and there, but there is not a lot of buzz about it in my "usual" hobby circles online. I think that will be more telling too, probably after Gen Con, when more folks start messing with the beta rules and considering those along with the model quality as to whether it's "worth it" to get into/back-into Warmachine. It feels like this is kind of a make or break moment with Mk 4 launch, and if it doesn't succeed, I'm not sure how much longer PP can survive on their other product lines.
I posted some thoughts after a 50 point beta game a few pages back. Overall I think the rules work well and I really enjoyed what I played. Let me know if you have any questions.
No one's actually confirmed the uncured resin thing. There was a single post by a single person claiming it. Privateer and Matt Wilson himself asked him to bring the models to them to replace them and figure out what happened. Per Privateer he never did, nor did he post on it again. Privateer has posted their curing process which is beyond the recommendations for their resin, but sounds like they are doing to reinforce the process going forward and will make an Insider on the handling of resin (mind you, they've been using non-3d printed resin for years now). I am not saying the guy lied, but it is weird that no one else has had that issue of the hundreds of boxes they sold so far.
How do you know no one else had issues? Just because people dont post things online doesn't mean there are no issues... Furthermore why would they? if the first thing some people do is insinuate they are liars... Not cool dude.
I
Everyone posts complaints online dude LOL
If it were a thing, you'd hear about it more than once.
They've made a lot of production mistakes before. But they are at least mostly good at fixing them, but it doesn't help to pretend they haven't, or deny they had issues.
It's an issue that needed resolving, it resolved. It's an issue that people should look out for in the future as they try this new and untested at this scale production method, especially one that involves toxic chemicals.
So, can you two drop it until something else comes up?
“A quick update regarding Uncured Resin: The customer who purchased a preview battlegroup at Gen Con and believed they had received product with uncured resin was able to return to the Privateer booth Saturday with the model kit. After a thorough inspection of each part, we were able to determine that what was being interpreted as uncured resin was in fact, what we expected, residue from the ultrasonic cleaning process. The model parts were entirely cured, but detritus from the ultrasonic cleaning process had deposited a bit of chalky buildup. We have addressed this issue after noticing it during our original production run by increasing the frequency of cycling of our ultrasonic cleaning baths, but some earlier produced parts did make it through our packing process. While the residue can be easily removed with a little isopropyl alcohol and the abrasion of a soft toothbrush or even just covered with a coat of primer, if you encounter this issue with the models and don’t wish to clean them, you can contact frontdesk@privateerpress.com for a replacement. But most importantly, while we have taken many steps to ensure models do not possess this chalky residue from the cleaning process, if it does appear on a model it does not indicate uncured resin or make the models dangerous to handle. Always practice safety when working with resin, however, by wearing a respirator when sanding and using a wet sanding technique, and wash your hands and clean your workstation after working with resin, whether it’s 3D printed or cast.
A quick thanks to the customer for taking time to bring that part back to the booth! We take the health and wellness of our customers seriously.”
Ok, if there was confusion on "uncured resin" by a customer that turned out to be that chalky residue that can happen if you don't let the model dry fully before curing, I can accept that, and can say "ok, move on."
Where I still have a problem, though, is the resolution and quality of the prints for the price they're asking. I know you can get better quality prints than what they've shown so far with not terribly expensive printers. And I know that other companies who do 3d print as production send out better quality prints than that for less or equivalent prices (e.g., Kingdom Death does do some direct 3d print as production and those that I've seen are flawless, and that's what you should be expecting for that cost).
Time will tell, I suppose. I do wish PP luck and have no ill will towards them. Whether the changes with the rules will save their game and whether the quality of their models will be sufficient is something that none of us can really predict and just have to watch and see. (Personally, no, neither of those from what I've seen thus far is enough to get me back into the game, but that's my own choice and opinion.)
At this point PPs issue, real or imagined, seems pretty small compared to GWs spider-eggs scandal. We can't assume people haven't been bitten by hatched spiders when they open the new release boxes, some may be unable to post feedback because they are still in the hospital.
NinthMusketeer wrote: GWs spider-eggs scandal. We can't assume people haven't been bitten by hatched spiders when they open the new release boxes, some may be unable to post feedback because they are still in the hospital.
That GW haven't publicly stated that their kits aren't lousy with arachnids clearly indicates that they're orchestrating a cover up and silencing those affected.
However, I for one welcome the extra protein in each box.
Haters will complain even if they're getting free stuff. Some people are just never satisfied.
Lord Damocles wrote: That GW haven't publicly stated that their kits aren't lousy with arachnids clearly indicates that they're orchestrating a cover up and silencing those affected.
However, I for one welcome the extra protein in each box.
Haters will complain even if they're getting free stuff. Some people are just never satisfied.
You wouldn’t happen to be named George, would you?
insaniak wrote: As amusing as it may be to manufacture drama in order to try to make a point, let's wind it back to the actual topic, hmm?
Yes, let's please do that.
Looking at the photos of people's stuff from Gencon, it looks good, and seems to have sold out very fast... which I imagine is a big relief for PP. The gamble is showing positive signs of being a good move.
I still think it is odd that all the Army deals have 2 Warjacks, where the Battlegroups from MKI-III had on average 3 (2 light and 1 heavy). Would have been very tempting if they sold them with 1 less infantry unit and 1 more Warjack.
insaniak wrote: As amusing as it may be to manufacture drama in order to try to make a point, let's wind it back to the actual topic, hmm?
Yes, let's please do that.
Looking at the photos of people's stuff from Gencon, it looks good, and seems to have sold out very fast... which I imagine is a big relief for PP. The gamble is showing positive signs of being a good move.
The preview sets were really popular and reddit, which is really dead for wargames not owned by GW, has at least one post a day in the WM subreddit about buying them. Here's PP post about how how well the sold from Friday.
What a Gen Con already! We want to thank everyone who has ordered the MKIV preview battlegroups for your overwhelming support. The volume of online orders has blown away our expectations and we have already surpassed the orders any previous online promotion in the company’s history! While we hate to end things early we have several weeks worth of production ahead of us to fulfill all of the orders, and to maintain our production schedule for the Core Army Starters releasing in October, we must end online sales of the MKIV review battlegroups this morning. We are extremely humbled and excited by how many have already shown interest in the next chapter of Warmachine!
Thank you for your support!
It seems to be picking up. But its not WM/H as its been know for 10-20 years.
Im hoping that they attract enough totally new players to refresh the community and get rid of many of the old guard and their outdated ideas about what the game should be
Sunno wrote: It seems to be picking up. But its not WM/H as its been know for 10-20 years.
Im hoping that they attract enough totally new players to refresh the community and get rid of many of the old guard and their outdated ideas about what the game should be
I've gone from mildly optimistic to actually hyped for this now. You're right its not the same game, but... its not really all that different either. They did a good job remembering what makes Warmachine special and fun and making something a little more modern that still holds those bits in focus. Very excited for more content to try on this one.
If you were like me and needed to wait for minds and wallets to clear before picking up some of the $75 preview battlegroups before Aug 10 ....... well tough, because they stopped taking orders on Aug 5 due to being crushed with more demand than they budgeted production for in order to meet their core release. Good for PP but I tell you, sour af grapes for me and my buddy, who were set to order today, well ahead of the Aug 10 date they told us.
Which is crazy timing, because I was basically looking at either buying into Horus Heresy at my LGS today or investing in Warmachine MK4 at some point in the fall maybe if their production can handle it And my clubmate is on the same fence.
I managed to get an order in before they took it down on Friday, picked up Cygnar and Khador boxes (wasn't originally planning to do two, but free shipping is free shipping).
Was a bit miffed about the Warcaster special though. At the show they were doing a BOGO deal (buy 1 get a second free), they also pushed the same deal live on their website. I decided to wait until friday to order so my paycheck would clear first, by which time they pulled the offer down and said that it was never meant to be on their webstore and was a show-only special.
Has anyone read into (or even played with) the released rules enough to make a comparison between the power level of Legacy Cryx and Protectorate vs Prime Cygnar and Khador as they were presented to us?
Is there a push towards buying new stuff visible in the rules or do they seem fairly balanced between each other?
Cyel wrote: Has anyone read into (or even played with) the released rules enough to make a comparison between the power level of Legacy Cryx and Protectorate vs Prime Cygnar and Khador as they were presented to us?
Is there a push towards buying new stuff visible in the rules or do they seem fairly balanced between each other?
There's no real way to play them against each other in their current state. We only have Battlegroup rules for the Mk4 armies where we can make full lists with the Legacy stuff.
From my initial comparisons though, I don't think it's a blatant attempt to make one better than the other. I think the flexibility of the Spell Rack is a hard advantage to top, but having tried a few configuration, I find that while the Rack spells are powerful the casters themselves are rather focus starved as a result, particularly since they seem to have more battlegroup buffs than infantry built into their kit. The Legacy casters feel like they have stuff to compete. Cyrenia has the free unit buffs I found quite powerful along with wall creation among a really excellent spell kit. Agathia's Field Marshal feels honestly unfair. I'm more worried about playing against her than any of the new casters.
Jacks feel pretty reasonable. The new ones probably have an edge with the right config, but I don't think its by a huge margin. For example, a Menoth Templar is 12 points for a SPD 4, MAT 6, POW 17, Reach, Chain, Beat Back weapon with Shield Guard at DEF 10, ARM 21. 3 pt Choir tax puts it up to POW 19.
A similar Great Bear with a Mace and Shield is SPD 4, MAT 7, POW 19, Reach, Beat Back, Crit Smite, with DEF 10, ARM 22 with Bulldoze and Aggressive comes in at 15 points. Definitely not strictly better, particularly when you consider 2 Templars + Choir comes to 27 while 2 Great Bears is 30.
It's real hard to support them when I have a metric gak ton of the jacks in 3 or 4 armies that are just door stops to them, now.
I have zero impulse to buy any more from them after the way they treated the players the last go around. I was a real fan around 1 and 2d edition, they lost me around the end with the ridiculous way they fouled up the KS, and the way they tried to gak on the fans as they tried to pull a page from GW's playbook.
Of course, if they could just try and put that proverbial "New and Improved" E peen away, actually get a rebalancing of the factions, or at the very least a rebalance of the game mechanics, before they turn it into another cash grab, again.
They went from a great company to pulling GW's bag of tricks, albeit badly.
Grot 6 wrote: It's real hard to support them when I have a metric gak ton of the jacks in 3 or 4 armies that are just door stops to them, now.
I have zero impulse to buy any more from them after the way they treated the players the last go around. I was a real fan around 1 and 2d edition, they lost me around the end with the ridiculous way they fouled up the KS, and the way they tried to gak on the fans as they tried to pull a page from GW's playbook.
Of course, if they could just try and put that proverbial "New and Improved" E peen away, actually get a rebalancing of the factions, or at the very least a rebalance of the game mechanics, before they turn it into another cash grab, again.
They went from a great company to pulling GW's bag of tricks, albeit badly.
You do realize that is exactly what they are doing with MK IV it is a combination of WHFB "end times" game reset that kills off most of the old line with a sprinkle of 8th ed 40K "simplify all the things"
With a pinch of ideas from other systems like star wars legion.
I give them props for going to 3d printing, modular kits and bits swaps with magnets. i think those are brilliant production side moves to reduce supply issues, material issues and model kit bloat.
The lines just got to big. with most factions having between 70 and 90 units with mercs topping out at a whopping 171.
I do honestly hope it helps the company and they are successful, even though i won't be joining them. the new look(i love the steam/diesel punk look), the changes to game play etc... are not what i am interested in when i play WM/H, if i wanted those things i can play one of the other dozen game systems i have minis for.
Unlike you i didn't like MKI or MK II but i love MK III because i play in a large active casual group that avoids steamroller, theme lists and tournament style players. We will continue to play MKIII because we like what it has to offer, and we have a large collection of minis (i have over 150 points myself and i have one of the smaller collections) some of which will not even make it into MK IV.
Thanks for the analysis, LunarSol! PP not canceling the old factions by giving them rules that make it impossible for them to compete is what everybody is hoping for, I think.
It also makes sens. Even if old players don't buy new stuff, they are people new faction owners can play against. Without them it would be hard to find opponents and the game would disappear.
Grot 6 wrote: It's real hard to support them when I have a metric gak ton of the jacks in 3 or 4 armies that are just door stops to them, now. .
You do realize that is exactly what they are doing with MK IV it is a combination of WHFB "end times" game reset that kills off most of the old line with a sprinkle of 8th ed 40K "simplify all the things"
I think he realizes. And that's part of the problem it seems for him having large amount of models invalidated. 40k players aren't happy when they lose access to models they had and there at least it's only sprinkling. With WM it's lot more models.
Not surprised if there are old players unhappy about being told "sorry, buy new models to play"
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Cyel wrote: Thanks for the analysis, LunarSol! PP not canceling the old factions by giving them rules that make it impossible for them to compete is what everybody is hoping for, I think.
It also makes sens. Even if old players don't buy new stuff, they are people new faction owners can play against. Without them it would be hard to find opponents and the game would disappear.
Well most of old models gets legendified so unless WM players take different stance to 40k/AOS where legends are more or less dead most of old models might just as well not have rules.
We'll see. 40k it works because it's only small amount of models in practice that been invalidated. In WM players might just say screw legends idea and keep them in use.
Not surprised if there are old players unhappy about being told "sorry, buy new models to play"
TBH, and i say this as an "old player", many of the old WM/H players are the reasons the community is in the mess its in and probably need to move on if WM/H is ever to grow again.
We need to get rid of the "2 list SR or die, flat 2d terrain, no fluff, no narrative play, no painting, no hobby" crowd as a matter of priority. What I have loved since the release of Mk4 beta rules is the amount of painted games on 3d terrain that have been posted on the FB forum from new or returning players which would NEVER of happened 2-3 months ago. We don't just need a new edition, we need a new mindset.
Not surprised if there are old players unhappy about being told "sorry, buy new models to play"
TBH, and i say this as an "old player", many of the old WM/H players are the reasons the community is in the mess its in and probably need to move on if WM/H is ever to grow again.
We need to get rid of the "2 list SR or die, flat 2d terrain, no fluff, no narrative play, no painting, no hobby" crowd as a matter of priority. What I have loved since the release of Mk4 beta rules is the amount of painted games on 3d terrain that have been posted on the FB forum from new or returning players which would NEVER of happened 2-3 months ago. We don't just need a new edition, we need a new mindset.
I wish it was that easy, based on my experience :( For quite a few years I tried to run events for new or returning players, convention presentations, teaching the game at different venues, basically advertising it wherever I was, online and IRL. All this with support from our local community which realises how small it is and how beneficial it would be to have swathes of new players.
All this with very little result, maybe one new and semi-consistent player for a few years work? The community even jokes about "these mythical new players" everybody keeps talking about but they never turn up to any event that is targeted at them (like Brawlmachine tournaments, demo games etc). Brawl events usually consist of a few veterans who come with absurdly weak, asynergistic armies to make up the attendance and zero new players or at best one returning, who disappears after the event never to be seen again.
Not a small town, but a 2 million capital of a EU country with plenty of wargamers, board gamers etc.
Looking back at all these years of wasted effort I genuinly think that all these times I could have got just games with the shrunken, but consistent group of WM buddies instead of trying to jump (and to make others jump) through hoops to create a perfect environment for newbies that just don't exist (because game too hard, too expensive, too unavailable).
Even now I have an event planned for new players - there's a Master tournament in September and we want to have a one day Mordheim-esque Brawlmachine campaign for more casual crowd, advertised everywhere. How many people have signed up already?
Once again, instead of just shrugging and going to play in the tournament with the rest of the guys, I will (and already have) spend time and effort to sit there idly, waiting for "mythical new players" that were never there... :(
Don't know if that's an indication of anything, Cyel, but I think it's just hard to teach new games to people when there are many more exciting wargames with huge coverage and well known IPs sparkling around. After a year of attempts I've got exactly zero people involved in Mortal Gods, because every time somebody shows at least a bit of interest it ends in 15 minutes with their friend coming in and saying something along the lines of "Dude, F this game, there's a Spiderman fighting Fallout guy or something at another table! - Damn, really! Sorry, man, this game's not for me, I wanna go look at Wasteland Warfare/Crisis Protocol!".
I think dropping production of the old stuff is a bit drastic. A better approach would be to keep the Prime/Primal stuff in production or rescult them. That way it can still keep the old players with big collections not feel totally dumped.
As they have said Legacy is going to be a format where all the old stuff gets rules, it would be nice for those new to the game to still be able to pick up the older stuff.
I understand that there is a supply issue in the EU, that hasn't been a problem here. through a strange twist of good deals on used armies, gifts and interest among regular players we have quite a few new players. for the longest time there was only 3 or 4 of us that considered WM/H one of our games. in the last year or 2 it kind of exploded out of the 11 active players we have that play WM/H 6 of them are what i would call "new", with 3 being super new, getting into the game in the last 3 months.
The thing is, with the game's complexity and skill-heaviness you need a group of a few newbies learning (or re-learning) the game at a similar pace, sharing the same skill ceiling, so that games between them are close enough not to be discouraging, win or lose.
Once such a treshold of "newbie attendance" is reached I think you can get the thing rolling! Not with one prospective player at a given time, though.
Not surprised if there are old players unhappy about being told "sorry, buy new models to play"
TBH, and i say this as an "old player", many of the old WM/H players are the reasons the community is in the mess its in and probably need to move on if WM/H is ever to grow again.
We need to get rid of the "2 list SR or die, flat 2d terrain, no fluff, no narrative play, no painting, no hobby" crowd as a matter of priority. What I have loved since the release of Mk4 beta rules is the amount of painted games on 3d terrain that have been posted on the FB forum from new or returning players which would NEVER of happened 2-3 months ago. We don't just need a new edition, we need a new mindset.
And making expensive models people have bought and painted useless is the way? You realize more likely is "forget miniatures, switch to paper counters" since you can't be sure how long your models stay useful.
Fforget 2d terrain, soon 2d models are in...
And btw recruiting new players is way harder than holding new ones. There's reason companies as a rule try to avoid screwing existing customers. Getting new one is more expensive than keeping old one.
So after they try to balance over a hundred units per faction, which do you prefer? Trying to constantly produce all that and expect stores to carry it, or move the old stuff out of production and new players can’t buy the old models that are being used against them?
I think players are only having their models invalidated if they insist on having their models invalidated. If players are unwilling to play against Unlimited armies; if players are unwilling to play against someone playing Stormblades as Storm Legionaires... then we've kind of failed to learn anything as a community.
Legacy armies are going to be the bulk of the game for the foreseeable future. Unlimited is going to be the primary format for the next year and after that, Prime is still going to mostly be made up of Legacy armies. Eventually tournaments will be Prime only but....the game really needs a healthy play environment off the table and if people are turning their nose up at Unlimited there.... IDK, maybe the community just isn't fit to survive.
Wow, are we just jumping full in on blaming 'the community?' As pre-emptive strikes for an edition launch full of uncertainty after a shaky edition with its own launch troubles and bad acting by the company, that's pretty hard core.
I haven't read the new rules but a strange thought occurred to me regarding legacy models. Assuming PP kept its volume rule as opposed to going with GW's silhouette rules what's to keep a player from using legacy models from outside his original legacy army as part of his current army? By that I mean if his jack has a 2" reach sword and a shield and he is playing Khador what would be the problem with him using Gallant? I mean a big sword is a big sword and a shield is a shield. I think that it would be fine especially if he had Gallant painted to match his Khador jacks. So, legacy models can still be used, at least jacks, it just means that players will have to carry more models than someone who has the new magnetized jacks.
Voss wrote: Wow, are we just jumping full in on blaming 'the community?' As pre-emptive strikes for an edition launch full of uncertainty after a shaky edition with its own launch troubles and bad acting by the company, that's pretty hard core.
40k players like to blame the community all the time, so I'm not surprised Warmachine has some of it too.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I haven't read the new rules but a strange thought occurred to me regarding legacy models. Assuming PP kept its volume rule as opposed to going with GW's silhouette rules what's to keep a player from using legacy models from outside his original legacy army as part of his current army? By that I mean if his jack has a 2" reach sword and a shield and he is playing Khador what would be the problem with him using Gallant? I mean a big sword is a big sword and a shield is a shield. I think that it would be fine especially if he had Gallant painted to match his Khador jacks. So, legacy models can still be used, at least jacks, it just means that players will have to carry more models than someone who has the new magnetized jacks.
In casual games with friends? Absolutely nothing. If you and your group don't care about "proxying," then you can do your thing. However, when it comes to "official" events, there's usually a WYSIWYG policy in place the often forbids the use of proxies. Warmachine is particularly bad on this front, historically, with the reasoning that you needed to know exactly what model you were facing at all times in order to "keep competitive."
Voss wrote: Wow, are we just jumping full in on blaming 'the community?' As pre-emptive strikes for an edition launch full of uncertainty after a shaky edition with its own launch troubles and bad acting by the company, that's pretty hard core.
If the community rejects Legacy armies, that's on us, yeah. If PP fails to deliver on their promises to provide rules for them, then sure, its on PP, but anyone at this point saying all their models are invalid are making that decision for themselves. There are absolutely issues I will take PP to task for, but the community needs to understand what the drive for mechanical purity really cost us. We're the ones who rejected narratives leagues, that refused to play on 3D terrain, that shunned smaller point levels. We insisted that players just had to get gud or play another game and the end result was the majority finding another game to play.
As I said, there are definitely aspects of that I'll take PP to task for. The lack of useful starter products, terrain rules that didn't work well with the models they were producing, and scenario design that increasingly failed to function with smaller armies, but the community more than played its part and hearing people say Legacy models don't count right off the bat is playing in that same mentality that drove the game into the dirt in the first place.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I haven't read the new rules but a strange thought occurred to me regarding legacy models. Assuming PP kept its volume rule as opposed to going with GW's silhouette rules what's to keep a player from using legacy models from outside his original legacy army as part of his current army? By that I mean if his jack has a 2" reach sword and a shield and he is playing Khador what would be the problem with him using Gallant? I mean a big sword is a big sword and a shield is a shield. I think that it would be fine especially if he had Gallant painted to match his Khador jacks. So, legacy models can still be used, at least jacks, it just means that players will have to carry more models than someone who has the new magnetized jacks.
In casual games with friends? Absolutely nothing. If you and your group don't care about "proxying," then you can do your thing. However, when it comes to "official" events, there's usually a WYSIWYG policy in place the often forbids the use of proxies. Warmachine is particularly bad on this front, historically, with the reasoning that you needed to know exactly what model you were facing at all times in order to "keep competitive."
The game has a LOOOOONG way to go before its back to a place where caring about tournament conversion policies should matter to anyone and frankly, it needs to be better than it was. We drove out some phenomenal armies in favor of barely discernable, bare metal under the insistence it was somehow more competitively recognizable. (looking at you MechnoLegion and NecronCryx).
Voss wrote: Wow, are we just jumping full in on blaming 'the community?' As pre-emptive strikes for an edition launch full of uncertainty after a shaky edition with its own launch troubles and bad acting by the company, that's pretty hard core.
If the community rejects Legacy armies, that's on us, yeah. If PP fails to deliver on their promises to provide rules for them, then sure, its on PP, but anyone at this point saying all their models are invalid are making that decision for themselves. There are absolutely issues I will take PP to task for, but the community needs to understand what the drive for mechanical purity really cost us. We're the ones who rejected narratives leagues, that refused to play on 3D terrain, that shunned smaller point levels. We insisted that players just had to get gud or play another game and the end result was the majority finding another game to play.
Ah. No, I'm passing on the collective guilt for whatever your local scene did.
Just no.
Especially not the terrain, as that was heavily pushed by the official format and the press gangers- we did just fine with real terrain until the Official Events pushed it out (and with it, most of the people I enjoyed playing with. After that it wasn't worth spending an hour each way in the car to go to what was left of game night).
Though the 'bare metal' bit I'm just confused by. Both the league games and the locals provided encouragement for painting.
PP never laid down an edict on terrain. They were using 3D hills in official IG finals way past the point where the community tolerated it. Most events just aren't that official, even the big stuff is on the whims of relatively local TOs that fell for the ease of transport and setup and a community that became increasingly concerned with precision in an environment that just isn't that conducive to it.
Some of that I'll put on the game itself. Minor threat advantages are huge in Mk2 specifically and terrain interactions are almost exclusively punishing. I've found both of these issues notably less concerning with the new unit movement.
Ultimately what you're saying is the culture of the game pushed out your players. What was played at Official Events shouldn't matter to locals that don't want to play that way, but we let those edicts rule in environments where that kind of formality isn't really necessary.
Same with painting and conversion. When your cool proxy/conversions are met with hang wringing concerns over tournament legality instead of praise for a job well done, it just kind of kills the enthusiasm for creativity. We let Official Events crush the local scenes and paid for it.
LunarSol wrote: PP never laid down an edict on terrain. They were using 3D hills in official IG finals way past the point where the community tolerated it. Most events just aren't that official, even the big stuff is on the whims of relatively local TOs that fell for the ease of transport and setup and a community that became increasingly concerned with precision in an environment that just isn't that conducive to it.
The game was all about precision, by design. That was a huge part of its selling point (both for rules and measurements), and reiterated again and again by the staff, the Infernals and the press gangers.. I remember Matt Wilson (on the PP boards, way back in the day before the summarily executed the forums for not toeing the party line enough) being accused on being anal retentive and his response was 'I've never heard of that being a bad thing'
I know nothing about IG finals, just the Steamroller and other packs from the company pushing felt and paper cutouts. It was never an issue in stores I played in until PP made it the norm, somewhere in mid-to late mark 2..
It was normal 3-d terrain all the time up to that point.
Some of that I'll put on the game itself. Minor threat advantages are huge in Mk2 specifically and terrain interactions are almost exclusively punishing. I've found both of these issues notably less concerning with the new unit movement.
Well, yeah. They've traded precision for magic teleportation as the default. Of course it doesn't matter anymore.
Ultimately what you're saying is the culture of the game pushed out your players. What was played at Official Events shouldn't matter to locals that don't want to play that way, but we let those edicts rule in environments where that kind of formality isn't really necessary.
No. 'The game' doesn't have a culture. The business did, and the players quite understandably followed suit.
But yes, edicts. Exactly edicts. Pronouncements from on high that dictate how things are done.
Same with painting and conversion. When your cool proxy/conversions are met with hang wringing concerns over tournament legality instead of praise for a job well done, it just kind of kills the enthusiasm for creativity. We let Official Events crush the local scenes and paid for it.
And that was the company's intent. They were firmly opposed to conversions. That's 100% on them. The local scenes started with the understanding that conversions would never be acceptable.
----
I don't know if its a misunderstanding of internet culture, or what. But players don't (and can't have) a collective consciousness that makes decisions.
The trappings and behaviors around a game largely come from the company that makes it. You don't get to pass off blame onto the players for having merely been present at the time.
Well most of old models gets legendified so unless WM players take different stance to 40k/AOS where legends are more or less dead most of old models might just as well not have rules.
It's not some philosophical stance against legended models that keeps them from being played, they just aren't worth the points. That's why you don't see them in events where they're allowed, there isn't a compelling reason to take most of them. The only reason to take one is "I remember using this model when I was a kid and I still have it so why not throw it on the table in casual games once in awhile". If WMH makes legends actually useful, they will still be played. However I strongly suspect they will fall into the Warhammer trap of "we'll give you rules for this old model, but we'll give better rules to our new models as we would really prefer if you buy new models from us".
Voss wrote: Wow, are we just jumping full in on blaming 'the community?' As pre-emptive strikes for an edition launch full of uncertainty after a shaky edition with its own launch troubles and bad acting by the company, that's pretty hard core.
That is a nuance-free strawman of what he said, so I suppose it works if you want to torment yourself with misunderstanding.
At any rate, fault doesn't matter. The community has a very real impact on the success of the game and if the community adopts a stance corrosive to the game's success it will suffer accordingly. The community could be that way because of or despite the parent company's best efforts, but either way a dead game is dead.
Well most of old models gets legendified so unless WM players take different stance to 40k/AOS where legends are more or less dead most of old models might just as well not have rules.
It's not some philosophical stance against legended models that keeps them from being played, they just aren't worth the points. That's why you don't see them in events where they're allowed, there isn't a compelling reason to take most of them. The only reason to take one is "I remember using this model when I was a kid and I still have it so why not throw it on the table in casual games once in awhile". If WMH makes legends actually useful, they will still be played. However I strongly suspect they will fall into the Warhammer trap of "we'll give you rules for this old model, but we'll give better rules to our new models as we would really prefer if you buy new models from us".
I think one of the big differences is that most of the Legended 40k stuff is pretty niche. A random special character or something that's largely redundant with a modern version. There's little in it that feels like including would add anything meaningful to your army, and I don't mean in a competitive sense. This is different in the sense that there are large aesthetic elements that are looking to be Unlimited only. Stuff like an Iron Fang army or Gun Mages or something are compelling themes that aren't likely to get much representation outside of Unlimited. I think a better example would be if GW had provided Legends rules for a classic Squat army; if that were the case, I think you'd definitely hear about it more. That's effectively similar to the state of Sisters prior to the end of 8th and yeah, there was always the random Sisters player with their beloved collection of OOP models that were exciting to see hit the table. The existence of Legacy casters alone is going to give people reason to go back from time to time. Legends just doesn't have anything like that to make players care to about anything in it.
Sales at the recent Gen Con far exceed the expectations of PP, so much so that they had to cut short the offer. It was scheduled to run until the 10th of August, they pulled it I think 1 day after launch.
Warmachine may have fallen from favour, and be a game that isn't seen a lot, but that doesn't mean it is dead.
I don't know if its a misunderstanding of internet culture, or what. But players don't (and can't have) a collective consciousness that makes decisions.
The trappings and behaviors around a game largely come from the company that makes it. You don't get to pass off blame onto the players for having merely been present at the time.
If this were true than Brawlmachine would have never been a thing. To that point, neither would Steamroller. That was originally a fan packet that PP pulled in house. The flat terrain was largely driven by a small company making widgets and tools to support the game. You'll not find PP selling neoprene terrain after all. In each of these cases, players developed solutions to problems they were facing and the community latched on until it grew into something more. Players absolutely drive and impact the way the game is played. By the time PP makes anything official its usually already prolific not only at convention tournaments, but a good chunk of local events too.
Sales at the recent Gen Con far exceed the expectations of PP, so much so that they had to cut short the offer. It was scheduled to run until the 10th of August, they pulled it I think 1 day after launch.
Warmachine may have fallen from favour, and be a game that isn't seen a lot, but that doesn't mean it is dead.
GW sells out of everything every time it launches anything, and that's met with "but they shortfall production", or "GW is dying, see!"
PP sells a handful, or who knows, 100 or 1000 units at the largest game convention in the US, and its "Winning!"
I agree with the other posters above, my Cryx continue to sit until the game gets to a point where its worth investing in, doesn't hinge on "git gud" to play, and the playerbase expands to where its worth spending the time doing. Everything up to that point is pure speculation and no evidence that the game is either dead, or a success... yet...
Sales at the recent Gen Con far exceed the expectations of PP, so much so that they had to cut short the offer. It was scheduled to run until the 10th of August, they pulled it I think 1 day after launch.
Warmachine may have fallen from favour, and be a game that isn't seen a lot, but that doesn't mean it is dead.
GW sells out of everything every time it launches anything, and that's met with "but they shortfall production", or "GW is dying, see!"
PP sells a handful, or who knows, 100 or 1000 units at the largest game convention in the US, and its "Winning!"
I agree with the other posters above, my Cryx continue to sit until the game gets to a point where its worth investing in, doesn't hinge on "git gud" to play, and the playerbase expands to where its worth spending the time doing. Everything up to that point is pure speculation and no evidence that the game is either dead, or a success... yet...
How do you expand the playerbase without playing games. I'm sure new and interested parties might want to see your Cryx, or game against you?
How do you expand the playerbase without playing games. I'm sure new and interested parties might want to see your Cryx, or game against you?
I mean, maybe? Right now, the state of Unlimited is still fairly unknown as to what will wind up Prime legal, so I can understand a lot of folks being hesitant to even bother until they know how much of their existing collection is going to be usable in that format (which will eventually be the "main" format). It can also be a hard sell to a new player to say something akin to, "So, I'm using these old models, but they might not be available in the future, so the game experience you're getting may not be the same in X months." At the same time, sure, just playing may attract new players, too.
Right now, things feel a bit up in the air with how the overall community is really going to accept and play, and if it will indeed attract new players with the much higher entry price tag, to say whether it will be a success or not. Pretty much just have to let it play out and see. From my viewpoint, it really could go either way.
Given there aren't really battleboxes available anymore, I wouldn't really call any of the new products a higher price of entry.
There's definitely a lot to be skeptical about, and I'm definitely looking forward to having enough information to actually guide players, but locally we've had a good bit of interest, including some people picking up stuff they've wanted in the past and we'll make work regardless of how it turns out going forward. Most of it has been stuff that's obviously going to carry forward (limited factions, gators... man do people love gators)
Old players seem harder to crack despite it really costing them nothing to try. I'm in the mind of "it literally costs me nothing to try" so I'll try. Either the new players will pull back in some of the old or it'll be something new, or we'll just go back to playing something else. Just going to play it by ear.
LunarSol wrote: Given there aren't really battleboxes available anymore, I wouldn't really call any of the new products a higher price of entry.
They directly compared the GenCon specials to battle boxes, Warcaster +2 jacks. $50 vs $75, so 150%. And a threat that individually they're going to be $100-115 if you missed out.
For the standard new starter, its $200, so a 400% higher cost of entry with the standard box. (You obviously get more, but that's a much higher 'starting cost,' with no real semantic dodge)
LunarSol wrote: Given there aren't really battleboxes available anymore, I wouldn't really call any of the new products a higher price of entry.
I get what you're saying, but that's my point. There is no "cheap" way to jump in with the new product line so far announced. I think this will definitely hamper getting new players, since dropping 200 bucks on a new game that you're not sure you're gonna like (yeah yeah, get some demos first, that isn't always a good indicator of the "staying power" of a game) after you've played a dozen or so games is kind of tough. It's almost like PP is taking the "wargaming is a luxury hobby" to an extreme level.
Yeah, I'd love to see better starter products. I'd love to see the GenCon boxes be a standard thing, even at the raised price. They have dramatically more gameplay to them than prior Battleboxes, which previously facilitated little more than a demo game. Worse in Mk3, where I felt like players rarely used any of the contents outside of demo games.
The new army boxes definitely don't hold a candle to the likes of the stuff Asmodee pushes with Legion and Marvel. Granted, 90% of my demos to that game seem to be players asking how they can avoid purchasing those starter boxes. I at least appreciate that the new $200 starters feel like a real army. PP is advertising them as 50 points, but there's significantly more to them than that to the point where there's actual army building options for 50 points, similar to how I appreciate the new Battleboxes are actually kind of interesting for 25 point games.
The sticker shock is real though. I think its pretty honest compared to what it really costs to get into most games, but loss leaders work for a reason. I'd love something more directly comparable to the $95-$150 Get Started/Combat Patrol offerings. Those things seem kind of terrible value, but the price is right to convince people they're a bargain.
Sounds like PP needs to revive Company of Iron and give it the Kill Team 2.0 treatment.
Turn it from this bizarre super random thing to a real way to get people to constantly buy smaller amounts of models and boxes. They can 3D print all the related accessories needed.
The new game is already a significantly smaller amount of models and boxes. 50 point games feel like a really good size and while 75 is where I feel like the best spot for a "full" game, 50 feels excellent as long as PP doesn't abandon it.
Loss leaders/low profit boxes are all very well, but they would really need something else to sell to be able to support it (no doubt it's coming but it's not around yet)
so you might get them in a couple of years if things go well, but for the moment occasional convention bargains will have to do
Sticker shock is real, very in your face and for someone totally new to wargaming they've got that plus tools, paints, dice and such to get hold of on top.
That's why getting started sets are often aiming at being cheap. It doesn't actually matter how good the stuff in them is gameplay wise (within reason), but what they need to do is tempt you to commit enough to buy in and then you can start selling more to the customer.
Then again perhaps PP's hope is that these high priced boxes won't be aimed at beginners and are simply aimed and hoped at bringing back former customers - of which they do have many. Ergo riding a wave of fans returning to the fold rather than aiming to pitch to totally new people. So perhaps they feel they can get away with higher cost boxes.
It's a gamble though and it could just as easily backfire and they end up sitting there with lots of great content in high priced boxes that just don't sell.
I also guess along with former customers, PP is aiming to market to older gamers as well. $200 starters are going to be a super hard to sell to parents and kids for a boardgame with tiny models.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Loss leaders/low profit boxes are all very well, but they would really need something else to sell to be able to support it (no doubt it's coming but it's not around yet)
so you might get them in a couple of years if things go well, but for the moment occasional convention bargains will have to do
Not with their current change to 3D printing production methods.
They are trending towards higher prices, fewer models. Which when you apply Economy of scale means they are looking to limit production to higher priced items.
Which tracks, because a print that takes 6 hours takes, well, 6 hours and you'd rather make $15 than $5 for that time.
Loss leaders work if they are able to be massed produced for little cost input. They work for 3D prints if you have a vast quantity of printers, but at that point proper injection moulded plastic is cheaper.
Valander wrote: It's almost like PP is taking the "wargaming is a luxury hobby" to an extreme level.
I never understood that. I collect sports cars and watches, which I would consider luxury hobbies. I don't see anything from a tabletop wargaming company that would compare. Last month my Porsche club did a group drive to a private airplane garage to tour the garage and explore inside some of the planes. They served champagne and charcuterie trays. A local jeweler was there with a table full of Rolexes and Hublots. That kind of experience is what a luxury hobby is about. What equivalent does tabletop wargaming have? A bunch of neckbeards with questionable hygiene and social skills gathered around tables in a convention hall, where anyone else with a couple hundred bucks and a bus ticket can also be? What is the equivalent of your car manufacturer flying you to the factory so the seat can be molded around your ass in tabletop wargaming? Where are the private events with champagne and hors d'oeuvres you've never even heard of like the ones hosted by dealerships and jewelers? Where are the group outings where they book out a Ritz Carlton for the weekend only for certain customers? "It's a luxury hobby" is just a line invented by suits to justify charging more for plastic toys and regurgitated by white knights defending the company. Nothing about tabletop wargaming evokes a sense of "luxury hobby"
Valander wrote: It's almost like PP is taking the "wargaming is a luxury hobby" to an extreme level.
I never understood that. I collect sports cars and watches, which I would consider luxury hobbies. I don't see anything from a tabletop wargaming company that would compare. Last month my Porsche club did a group drive to a private airplane garage to tour the garage and explore inside some of the planes. They served champagne and charcuterie trays. A local jeweler was there with a table full of Rolexes and Hublots. That kind of experience is what a luxury hobby is about. What equivalent does tabletop wargaming have? A bunch of neckbeards with questionable hygiene and social skills gathered around tables in a convention hall, where anyone else with a couple hundred bucks and a bus ticket can also be? What is the equivalent of your car manufacturer flying you to the factory so the seat can be molded around your ass in tabletop wargaming? Where are the private events with champagne and hors d'oeuvres you've never even heard of like the ones hosted by dealerships and jewelers? Where are the group outings where they book out a Ritz Carlton for the weekend only for certain customers? "It's a luxury hobby" is just a line invented by suits to justify charging more for plastic toys and regurgitated by white knights defending the company. Nothing about tabletop wargaming evokes a sense of "luxury hobby"
Where individual people fall in regards to income/wealth stratification generally defines what they consider a "luxury."
Luxury is mostly a fancy word for niche. In modern times anything short of mass market is borderline bespoke. GW is the closest thing to the economy of scale most mainstream hobbies enjoy and its still incredibly niche by comparison. No different from luxury cars with a lot of custom options vs the mass market stuff that distributes the cost to manufacture over a larger user base.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Loss leaders/low profit boxes are all very well, but they would really need something else to sell to be able to support it (no doubt it's coming but it's not around yet)
so you might get them in a couple of years if things go well, but for the moment occasional convention bargains will have to do
Not with their current change to 3D printing production methods.
They are trending towards higher prices, fewer models. Which when you apply Economy of scale means they are looking to limit production to higher priced items.
Which tracks, because a print that takes 6 hours takes, well, 6 hours and you'd rather make $15 than $5 for that time.
Loss leaders work if they are able to be massed produced for little cost input. They work for 3D prints if you have a vast quantity of printers, but at that point proper injection moulded plastic is cheaper.
Personally my thoughts are that PP has gone for 3D printing as its the cheapest way to setup and can be done in different regions without vastly increased costs.
I think it gives them basically an affordable breathing room through which they can try and regrow the power and income from Warmachine and Hordes.
IF it fails they aren't vastly out of pocket
IF it ticks over they can keep going and earn a modest profit even if it never becomes a major game
IF it takes off again they can later start investing in other production methods like Siocast machines and such. Then get back toward general manufacture.
3D printing doesn't scale up as nicely as casting methods because, as you say, a 6 hour print takes 6 hours. So the only way to scale up is to buy more machines and that means more overhead to keep up with them, space and staff and such.
But they can certainly have some scaling room.
Plus an added bonus if they can get the regional production hubs working is that it lets them get around some current issues with international shipping.
I think the potential of a distributed production model carries a decent amount of weight, honestly. And as much as I am a proponent of 3d printing production, fully agree that it's still not yet able to scale as quickly as other methods, though it can certainly be great for smaller production runs.
LunarSol wrote: Luxury is mostly a fancy word for niche. In modern times anything short of mass market is borderline bespoke. GW is the closest thing to the economy of scale most mainstream hobbies enjoy and its still incredibly niche by comparison. No different from luxury cars with a lot of custom options vs the mass market stuff that distributes the cost to manufacture over a larger user base.
There is a big difference in what I explained above. When you buy a Porsche, you don't just get a nicer car than when you buy a Honda. You get an entire experience that's only available by being an owner of that brand. Cruises to the Caribbean with other owners, private jet/hangar tours, 5 star dinners, priority parking in special lots at car shows and races, etc that aren't open to Honda owners or comparable to anything Honda offers. That's what you get for the money beyond just nicer leather seats, headlight washers, and 400hp. What do you get for being a GW customer over buying recasts or 3D printing your own models? Nothing. The 3D printer or recast buyer has access to all the same events, tables, leagues, campaigns, etc that anyone else has. There is no benefit other than getting higher quality models, there is no luxury experience that goes along with being a customer which isn't afforded to customers of less luxurious brands. That's the difference between buying a Porsche over a Honda and buying GW/PP over bones/recast/3d prints. That's what I think of when I hear "luxury" brand, an experience above and beyond what you would get from a cheaper competitor.
I’ve had a very short relation with WarmaHordes - I picked up a couple starter sets near the end of MKII, when GW was crashing hard. Probably the most effort I’ve put into painting the models. Played a handful of introductory games at home, but I’m a wallflower of a wargamer and getting crushed in games was something that early on drove me away from tournament play with the likes of GW games.
MK3 came along, and the game just vanished from the local FLGS, as did the community. I honestly thought the game had stopped being published, and places like Miniature Market were fire-sale ing the game, or the models I was looking for were sold out. Navigateing PP’s own site was a nightmare. So for me, the game was dead.
I’m hopeful and curious about MK4, but like X-Wing v2, the roll-out seems haphazard so far. I’d like to give the game a second chance, but they seem to have chosen the iffyiest sort of manner to get it out to folks.
Sales at the recent Gen Con far exceed the expectations of PP, so much so that they had to cut short the offer. It was scheduled to run until the 10th of August, they pulled it I think 1 day after launch.
Warmachine may have fallen from favour, and be a game that isn't seen a lot, but that doesn't mean it is dead.
Well you can skip your next haircut with how fast that went over your head
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Loss leaders/low profit boxes are all very well, but they would really need something else to sell to be able to support it (no doubt it's coming but it's not around yet)
so you might get them in a couple of years if things go well, but for the moment occasional convention bargains will have to do
Not with their current change to 3D printing production methods.
They are trending towards higher prices, fewer models. Which when you apply Economy of scale means they are looking to limit production to higher priced items.
Which tracks, because a print that takes 6 hours takes, well, 6 hours and you'd rather make $15 than $5 for that time.
Loss leaders work if they are able to be massed produced for little cost input. They work for 3D prints if you have a vast quantity of printers, but at that point proper injection moulded plastic is cheaper.
Personally my thoughts are that PP has gone for 3D printing as its the cheapest way to setup and can be done in different regions without vastly increased costs.
I think it gives them basically an affordable breathing room through which they can try and regrow the power and income from Warmachine and Hordes.
IF it fails they aren't vastly out of pocket
IF it ticks over they can keep going and earn a modest profit even if it never becomes a major game
IF it takes off again they can later start investing in other production methods like Siocast machines and such. Then get back toward general manufacture.
3D printing doesn't scale up as nicely as casting methods because, as you say, a 6 hour print takes 6 hours. So the only way to scale up is to buy more machines and that means more overhead to keep up with them, space and staff and such.
But they can certainly have some scaling room.
Plus an added bonus if they can get the regional production hubs working is that it lets them get around some current issues with international shipping.
Everything you say is good. Except siocast. Siocast is a middle of the road, cheap material that has a tendency towards weakness and bubbles. The siocast spanish napoleonics from Warlord were plagued with this.
LunarSol wrote: Luxury is mostly a fancy word for niche. In modern times anything short of mass market is borderline bespoke. GW is the closest thing to the economy of scale most mainstream hobbies enjoy and its still incredibly niche by comparison. No different from luxury cars with a lot of custom options vs the mass market stuff that distributes the cost to manufacture over a larger user base.
There is a big difference in what I explained above. When you buy a Porsche, you don't just get a nicer car than when you buy a Honda. You get an entire experience that's only available by being an owner of that brand. Cruises to the Caribbean with other owners, private jet/hangar tours, 5 star dinners, priority parking in special lots at car shows and races, etc that aren't open to Honda owners or comparable to anything Honda offers. That's what you get for the money beyond just nicer leather seats, headlight washers, and 400hp. What do you get for being a GW customer over buying recasts or 3D printing your own models? Nothing. The 3D printer or recast buyer has access to all the same events, tables, leagues, campaigns, etc that anyone else has. There is no benefit other than getting higher quality models, there is no luxury experience that goes along with being a customer which isn't afforded to customers of less luxurious brands. That's the difference between buying a Porsche over a Honda and buying GW/PP over bones/recast/3d prints. That's what I think of when I hear "luxury" brand, an experience above and beyond what you would get from a cheaper competitor.
That is because luxury and luxurious can mean different things.
Hell, the word itself has more than one meaning.
The full customer experience with a luxury brand that you describe is one such meaning.
When applied to wargaming, luxury in terms of a brand being a "luxury brand" is relating to the cost/quality of the models, rather than the experience.
Sales at the recent Gen Con far exceed the expectations of PP, so much so that they had to cut short the offer. It was scheduled to run until the 10th of August, they pulled it I think 1 day after launch.
Warmachine may have fallen from favour, and be a game that isn't seen a lot, but that doesn't mean it is dead.
Well you can skip your next haircut with how fast that went over your head
Nah mate, didn't go over my head at all. Come back when you have an actual counter argument.
Also, my wife likes my hair long, so no chance of a hair cut any time soon.
Anyway, back on topic.
It is a shame that the Gen Con Battlegroups were a limited release, as I think those would have been a much better 'try the game' entry level. The starter armies have a sizable price tag for people who are new to the game. $200 is a lot to ask for a game they may not enjoy. Hopefully PP do eventually make them a permanent purchase option.
Valander wrote: It's almost like PP is taking the "wargaming is a luxury hobby" to an extreme level.
I never understood that. I collect sports cars and watches, which I would consider luxury hobbies. I don't see anything from a tabletop wargaming company that would compare. Last month my Porsche club did a group drive to a private airplane garage to tour the garage and explore inside some of the planes. They served champagne and charcuterie trays. A local jeweler was there with a table full of Rolexes and Hublots. That kind of experience is what a luxury hobby is about. What equivalent does tabletop wargaming have? A bunch of neckbeards with questionable hygiene and social skills gathered around tables in a convention hall, where anyone else with a couple hundred bucks and a bus ticket can also be? What is the equivalent of your car manufacturer flying you to the factory so the seat can be molded around your ass in tabletop wargaming? Where are the private events with champagne and hors d'oeuvres you've never even heard of like the ones hosted by dealerships and jewelers? Where are the group outings where they book out a Ritz Carlton for the weekend only for certain customers? "It's a luxury hobby" is just a line invented by suits to justify charging more for plastic toys and regurgitated by white knights defending the company. Nothing about tabletop wargaming evokes a sense of "luxury hobby"
You may want to check the definition of a "luxury good". In economics it's not what your subjective example shows. If definitions were so subjective they would be impossible to work with - for a billionaire who owns a small archipelago and eats human child's liver every day your Porsche and French sausage would hardly be luxury items after all.
Anyway, back on topic.
It is a shame that the Gen Con Battlegroups were a limited release, as I think those would have been a much better 'try the game' entry level. The starter armies have a sizable price tag for people who are new to the game. $200 is a lot to ask for a game they may not enjoy. Hopefully PP do eventually make them a permanent purchase option.
Yes this is a part of feedback to the devs that needs to be made louder.
For PP it will mean one more SKU for each faction but PP dont attract the kind of whales that will shell out 200 USD exluding shipping+tax on a singleplayer entry point, atleast not in todays world where the everyday bills are getting out of controll. Allso the rules needs to be rebalanced for a new point treshold at 25p.
As for the gencon battlegroups it is good they are gone as they contained exactly the same caster and jacks you get in the 200 box so in the long run it is a pointless product and served more as a promo product. A Real 50-70 USD box needs to have a caster and jacks that are NOT inlcuded in the starter or expansion.
FrozenDwarf wrote: As for the gencon battlegroups it is good they are gone as they contained exactly the same caster and jacks you get in the 200 box so in the long run it is a pointless product and served more as a promo product. A Real 50-70 USD box needs to have a caster and jacks that are NOT inlcuded in the starter or expansion.
No, the included warcaster is the one which will be available later as a separate release, and having multiple warjacks is a good idea anyway. The battlegroup isn't really going away either, it's just going to stop being a bundle. People will still be able to get a less than $200 cost of entry by buying the separate warcaster and jacks for around $100.
RE: The apparent sales success at Gencon - I wouldn't spin that as a positive. Yes, its great that they outsold expectations, unfortunately its also a demonstration that their production methodology isn't able to keep up with apparent demand for their product, as they specifically had to halt sales so that they could maintain their production timelines for other products in order to hit their release timeline for the new edition. Not exactly confidence inspiring, and I am not confident on their ability to scale up production efficiently or in a timely manner to meet the potential demand for future waves of products. If they are going to basically sell out production lots of their products every time they release them and have to wait months to be able to reprint them, then one can assume that their products will be constantly out of stock everywhere as they will be constantly behind demand, up until the point that demand collapses due to the lack of availability (basically the same thing that happened with FFGs short-lived Star Wars Destiny game which died on the vine because interested players could never find product available for sale due to initial small production lots, by the time FFG corrected and got the numbers in order, nobody was interested because they weren't reprinting the early sets so the product just sat there and didn't move).
I don't know if its a misunderstanding of internet culture, or what. But players don't (and can't have) a collective consciousness that makes decisions.
The trappings and behaviors around a game largely come from the company that makes it. You don't get to pass off blame onto the players for having merely been present at the time.
If this were true than Brawlmachine would have never been a thing. To that point, neither would Steamroller. That was originally a fan packet that PP pulled in house. The flat terrain was largely driven by a small company making widgets and tools to support the game. You'll not find PP selling neoprene terrain after all. In each of these cases, players developed solutions to problems they were facing and the community latched on until it grew into something more. Players absolutely drive and impact the way the game is played. By the time PP makes anything official its usually already prolific not only at convention tournaments, but a good chunk of local events too.
Yep, 100%. "Players don't have collective consciousness" is an awful take, its called a "community" for a reason.
Sales at the recent Gen Con far exceed the expectations of PP, so much so that they had to cut short the offer. It was scheduled to run until the 10th of August, they pulled it I think 1 day after launch.
Warmachine may have fallen from favour, and be a game that isn't seen a lot, but that doesn't mean it is dead.
GW sells out of everything every time it launches anything, and that's met with "but they shortfall production", or "GW is dying, see!"
PP sells a handful, or who knows, 100 or 1000 units at the largest game convention in the US, and its "Winning!"
I agree with the other posters above, my Cryx continue to sit until the game gets to a point where its worth investing in, doesn't hinge on "git gud" to play, and the playerbase expands to where its worth spending the time doing. Everything up to that point is pure speculation and no evidence that the game is either dead, or a success... yet...
How do you expand the playerbase without playing games. I'm sure new and interested parties might want to see your Cryx, or game against you?
To be fair, Cryx are more or less a dead faction and will soon have their entire model range out of production, so its not like new players will be able to buy them or really care all that much about them.
Yeah, I'd love to see better starter products. I'd love to see the GenCon boxes be a standard thing, even at the raised price. They have dramatically more gameplay to them than prior Battleboxes, which previously facilitated little more than a demo game. Worse in Mk3, where I felt like players rarely used any of the contents outside of demo games.
Problem is that the GenCon boxes still come in below the "minimum" to play a legal game RaW. On top of that, if they made them a retail product then they would run into SKU management issues, as they will either need to remove the individual kits from sale or they will have the same minis available for sale under two different SKUs. Part of what they are trying to avoid is providing retailers with a product that nobody buys because it is undercut by the value of another retail product. Their relationship with retailers is already on shaky ground, so it wouldn't be a good move IMO. It would have been smart if they had designed the new edition a bit differently so they could offer a starter battlegroup for each faction (i.e. basically a cadre warcaster and warjacks) that came in the battlegroup box for ~$75 as a cheaper entry point to the game without stepping on their own toes.
As for the gencon battlegroups it is good they are gone as they contained exactly the same caster and jacks you get in the 200 box so in the long run it is a pointless product and served more as a promo product. A Real 50-70 USD box needs to have a caster and jacks that are NOT inlcuded in the starter or expansion.
Nope. The gencon battlegroups contained warcaster C, whereas the $200 box contains warcaster A (and the $150 expansion box contains warcaster B). As for the jacks, yes they are the same jacks, but those are also the only two jacks that each army has access to and you will probably want 2-3 of each for maximum listbuilding flexibility. So not, not a pointless product, far from it - if you wanted to play any of the three armies available at gencon then the battlegroups were a fantastic entry point into the game while saving you a little bit of money and will make it that much cheaper for you to build out your mk4 army.
The lack of printing capacity doesn't surprise me. Like I said I'm going to take an educated and experienced the guess and say that they have one maybe two production farms in the US and one in each of the Pan Asia and Europe markets.
For them to sell out, and then especially to close down sale of the products due to outstripped demand, they must truly be months behind in printing. Which as you say, totally doesn't bode well. Especially when one failed print can shift that entire printing schedule back 4 to 6 hours.
This is exactly why my 3D print processing times are approximate. I don't want to take your money and then hold it hostage while awaiting a part or a backup printer to come in the mail.
It's a good thing in that it shows that there's greater demand than anticipated production was geared up for. This means that the company can justify increased investing and spending IF the demand remains high over a prolonged period. You don't want to ramp up production based on a very short forecast of sales otherwise you can end up like the exercise bike firm in the UK that invested in a huge production upgrade only for the market to vanish after the novelty (and savings) from the first lockdowns were gone and people went back outside to cycle.
They are a bad thing because customers are left unable to buy. This leads to customers being likely to turn to other products to suite their needs and desires.
A huge amount really hinges not on the sales metrics of one sale event, but the sustained performance. Gencon sold out greatly, that's good as it means all of PP's investments were recouped. It's bad as it means customers were left unable to buy, but it might also be an enigma of sales. Next time around they might under sell and be left holding stock. PP really has to see the sustained performance over a period of time. If they see continual demand exceeding production they can justify investment; if they see it the other way around -a big surge at the start then things trickle off fast; then by not investing too early they save money in the long term and not leaving themselves with an inflated overhead for a market that didn't sustain sales at a high enough rate
Its difficult to say what are their targets as a company at this point.
Is this the initial steps to going back to the high volumes and faster casting methods or actually they are quite happy to do smaller and expensive runs that sell out... almost like limited edition box sets.
They might not even really know themselves; hence 3d printing as the middle row production method that lets them, in theory, go either way in the future.
Sales at the recent Gen Con far exceed the expectations of PP, so much so that they had to cut short the offer. It was scheduled to run until the 10th of August, they pulled it I think 1 day after launch.
Warmachine may have fallen from favour, and be a game that isn't seen a lot, but that doesn't mean it is dead.
Well you can skip your next haircut with how fast that went over your head
Nah mate, didn't go over my head at all. Come back when you have an actual counter argument.
It definitely did, since you responded to a point I never made. Cut a tiny piece of my post out of context to try and fabricate it, even. There's no counter argument because you are arguing with an entirely fictional position no one in the thread has expressed.
NAVARRO wrote: Is there more reviews or unboxing online?
More will probably show up when the online orders ship sometime in the next month. The only people with the battlegroups currently are those who went to GenCon ...
... or those who know somebody who did My local ex-PressGanger was awesome and sold me his Orgoth box yesterday, since he just wanted to check out the magnets and resin quality. He was sufficiently impressed to order three more boxes online for demo purposes.
I'm almost done assembling, got the jacks magnetized and need to clean up extra arms and the warcaster. My review in a nutshell:
- The magnets are great, really nice sockets and keying to hold limbs in place and avoiding spinning and stuff. That said, I cut the keys off the Jackal's heads as they were keeping them from fitting flush.
- The resin is fine. I had some white IPA residue but really whatever, I'm not concerned that it will obscure paint. The resin they use is less brittle than the stuff I do, which is nice, but I had one weapon arrive broken (ironically the one I'll probably always use on the Jackal)
- Print layers aren't bad, especially as I'm going to hit them with black and then silver sprays. I could see somebody doing a thin white and then glazes having some issues with big round jack joints, however I'm not sure that will come up much. I haven't checked out the warcaster, and certainly the layer lines are going to mean more on infantry skin and such. I'll know more after priming.
- Clean up for me is MUCH faster than traditional minis, just knifing off sprue pegs really. There's some pockmarking from supports being removed, but again, I don't care on jacks. There are many ways to smooth these over for infantry and what not, and I'll take them over the endless gap filling I have to do with traditional resin minis (such as the Legion army I'm heavily stalled on because GSing all those gaps is my least favorite thing).
I agree that probably on Jacks or other mechanical heavy armoured surfaces that the print layer lines would be easier to fix in comparison with smaller miniatures, with loads of organic parts. Like trollbloods.
On the part that was broken do you find its easy to repair the plastic with just glue or does need pinning?
NAVARRO wrote: On the part that was broken do you find its easy to repair the plastic with just glue or does need pinning?
A nice thing about 3D prints is that if they break, the break is often quite shear, which I find very easy to glue as the fit is often perfect. I did think about pining the Jackal's club head back on, and I may give it a shot if it breaks again, but the little bit of pining I've done with my own prints hasn't always been the best, as the drill bit can fracture layers if it's done too hard or with the grain? This is just my experience, I've never heard of people pining 3D prints (probably because they're one piece or very light so the need isn't often there).
Yeaaaaa I wonder about big, smooth, heavy beasts. I'm in for Orgoth because they have pseudo-beasts of their own, so I guess I'll find out before the Hordes stuff drops next year, however what we've seen has been fairly textured AND won't be produced for a while yet, giving time for PP to continue to dial in their production capabilities.
You may want to check the definition of a "luxury good". In economics it's not what your subjective example shows. If definitions were so subjective they would be impossible to work with - for a billionaire who owns a small archipelago and eats human child's liver every day your Porsche and French sausage would hardly be luxury items after all.
I'm fully aware of the technical definition in economics, and I also don't think it applies to GW products. As income increases, demand for a luxury good increases proportionally more. This would be true of Porsche, Louis Vuitton, Rolex, etc. That's why you saw prices of used Porsches and Rolexes skyrocket over the past 2 years, people had a little bit more free money but those items had a HUGE increase in demand because they are the literal textbook definition of a luxury good. GW is only a "luxury good" in that it isn't a necessity, but I don't think that's what people have in mind when they think of "luxury goods".
Cyel wrote: I can see that base overhang is still en vogue
The classic 'assing in' is less of a problem without arcs
Also I'll note that the 40mm base still has a slot in it. I get that PP ordered them in the millions but what an annoying thing we need to keep filling in when these 3D prints are never going to have tabs.
Cyel wrote: I can see that base overhang is still en vogue
The classic 'assing in' is less of a problem without arcs
Also I'll note that the 40mm base still has a slot in it. I get that PP ordered them in the millions but what an annoying thing we need to keep filling in when these 3D prints are never going to have tabs.
So... don't fill them in. If years and years of GW slottabases (model tabs were almost never the same length as the slots) taught me anything, is if you're going to base stuff anyway, just glue paper over top, glue the model on the base, add your basing material, and its a done deal. You'll never see the difference. PP metal models were the same way, and their blisters came with paper to cut and paste over the holes.
You may want to check the definition of a "luxury good". In economics it's not what your subjective example shows. If definitions were so subjective they would be impossible to work with - for a billionaire who owns a small archipelago and eats human child's liver every day your Porsche and French sausage would hardly be luxury items after all.
I'm fully aware of the technical definition in economics, and I also don't think it applies to GW products. As income increases, demand for a luxury good increases proportionally more. This would be true of Porsche, Louis Vuitton, Rolex, etc. That's why you saw prices of used Porsches and Rolexes skyrocket over the past 2 years, people had a little bit more free money but those items had a HUGE increase in demand because they are the literal textbook definition of a luxury good. GW is only a "luxury good" in that it isn't a necessity, but I don't think that's what people have in mind when they think of "luxury goods".
It depends on how you ask the question. The vast majority of people never even think of those brands because owning them is impossible. If you ask "what's a luxury item?" you'll get anything that people feel they want but either have to save up for or is something that's not really a necessity or frivolous spend. If you instead ask "Is a Rolex a Luxury good?" a lot of people will say yes but very few would ever offer that on the first question.
Do y'all really just glue paper on?? I've seen people use tape or something but never thought to straight up glue paper. I pack the slot with sprue and putty over it, then flock and etc.
But anyway my point was that it's a total relic that serves no purpose any longer, and barely did in the past.
Owning Louis Vuitton is impossible? I see tons of women in Medellin and Bogota with authentic ones, places where minimum wage is $4/hr. Why is that unattainable for the average American or European?
Do y'all really just glue paper on?? I've seen people use tape or something but never thought to straight up glue paper. I pack the slot with sprue and putty over it, then flock and etc.
But anyway my point was that it's a total relic that serves no purpose any longer, and barely did in the past.
I have been gluing a piece of cut paper on top of PP bases for years. As the tabs on the minis got smaller and smaller, was easier to just glue paper on it and lightly press the tab through it when it is dry so that I don't have to try and fill in around the tab.
Packing the slot with sprue and putty takes so much more time and effort.
Do y'all really just glue paper on?? I've seen people use tape or something but never thought to straight up glue paper. I pack the slot with sprue and putty over it, then flock and etc.
But anyway my point was that it's a total relic that serves no purpose any longer, and barely did in the past.
Yup I always just use a bit of rectangular paper superglued down. I don’t measure carefully either. The edges of the paper you never see once you add a texture paint, flock or whatever your basing go to is. Quick as hell
@Boss Salvage can you tell me more about the break and how it happened? As a clumsy brute who does all sorts of accidental smashing & dropping how brittle a material is becomes highly relevant
Toofast wrote: Owning Louis Vuitton is impossible? I see tons of women in Medellin and Bogota with authentic ones, places where minimum wage is $4/hr. Why is that unattainable for the average American or European?
Crushing socio-economic inequality, rampant feudalistic capitalism, cost of living at the highest its been in years. Wages Stagnant for several years. Minimum wage stagnant for at least a decade.
The fat cats gripe that we are not consuming enough, but they don't make enough capital available by raising wages for constant-growth capitalism to work.
Plus Louis Vuitton has a much, much, much cheaper line that they sell with their logo plastered all over it as a marketing thing as they really wanted in on that $300-$500 purse range that Coach and MK were owning. I have a wallet from them my sister bought me from Nordstroms and it was like $50. I don't consider that in any way luxurious.
NH Gunsmith wrote:Packing the slot with sprue and putty takes so much more time and effort.
Sure does
NinthMusketeer wrote:@Boss Salvage can you tell me more about the break and how it happened? As a clumsy brute who does all sorts of accidental smashing & dropping how brittle a material is becomes highly relevant
The Jackal's mace (the thing it's equipped with in my pic) came broken at the haft above the fist, tho I wouldn't call it the most delicate piece - the Jackal comes with a spear that has a very similar but much longer shaft. For a little context, the Tyrant's flail intentionally comes in 3 parts - arm/handle + chain + head - presumably to avoid similar disaster (and maybe to pose but I doubt it with how the chain is sculpted).
As much of a bummer as broken bits in a new kit are, the reminder that I'll need to secure these things for transport is well taken. Most likely I'll keep the magnetizing going and stick them to a steel sheet, particularly with how light the minis are.
As much of a bummer as broken bits in a new kit are, the reminder that I'll need to secure these things for transport is well taken. Most likely I'll keep the magnetizing going and stick them to a steel sheet, particularly with how light the minis are.
I've been converting all my foam to plastic bins with magnets. The metal Warmachine models are a little too top heavy to do that, but I'm looking forward to transporting the new armies that way.
I think the resin is quite good, but you can check out the layer lines for yourself in these big photos. The cape is particularly well printed, it's really just the top of the mini's armor where they stand out the most. Good chunky print overall.
No backpack cause I need to paint that back fur, no head because I'm considering headswapping all the non-trollkin Orgoth infantry
EDIT: You can also see by the neck slot that the non-magenetic joints are keyed as well. Same goes for the jack torsos and hips.
Seeing more of these in the wild I'm happy to see PP went with easier to assemble and less prices vs some lines that have gone the 3d printing/stl route (like raging heroes) that are crazy fiddly an impractical in a low of ways (but do look impressive).
One more snap from me. I zoomed in on this shot of all the bits and noticed a good example of potentially problematic layer lines. I'm frankly unsure how this head is going to look after I spray it black, spray it metal, contrast it, wash it and drybrush it. Could be fine? But a lot of those steps feel designed to bring out any layer lines that make it through priming
ya. that's going to look ruff from my own experience not changing FEP often enough. You'll want to sand with a file or sanding stick to try and get rid of some of that.
It's several places on the center head. Basically curves/spheres, need to be built buy stacking layers and slowly shrinking the layer width. If your later height (ie the hight between each layer) is too much you don't get a curve but a step pyramid like thing like you're looking at an elevation map. You can see that in the center of the head and on the horns.
A common way of getting around this is changing the print orientation to that part isn't vertical (as horizontal doesn't have this issue as much) or shrinking the layer height (which increases the print time). That part is hard as it's got a lot of curves or changing the orientation would just move where they were though you could angel it enough to get rid of some of them.
Boss Salvage wrote: One more snap from me. I zoomed in on this shot of all the bits and noticed a good example of potentially problematic layer lines. I'm frankly unsure how this head is going to look after I spray it black, spray it metal, contrast it, wash it and drybrush it. Could be fine? But a lot of those steps feel designed to bring out any layer lines that make it through priming
Yeah, the head looks like it was not done in the most optimal orientation for sure. Those lines will definitely be visible after priming and made worse if you wash and drybrush most likely. Really raises the question again of what printer they're using, too...
The layer lines are a concern, but also the point where the model was supported. These can be hard to see bare, and I've seen quite a few Greeblood (Greebo's 3D printed new models) painted examples where these are still present. The potential is obviously there... just not sure about the reality...
Edit: Holy cow, great pics in your album, Salvage! Those do look sweet. Can't wait to see how they come out painted
RiTides wrote: The layer lines are a concern, but also the point where the model was supported. These can be hard to see bare, and I've seen quite a few Greeblood (Greebo's 3D printed new models) painted examples where these are still present.
The potential is obviously there... just not sure about the reality of the present...
Yeah, I don't like that they appear to be leaving some of the support nubs on there and shipping out like that. They're much easier to remove pre-curing, and much more likely to leave worse marks if you remove after. Of course, if you use a sharp knife and slice them off and maybe a little bit of a sanding stick, you're probably fine. In general, though, it's still less clean up than mold lines and gaps, but of course that really depends on the quality of the supports in the first place.
As much of a bummer as broken bits in a new kit are, the reminder that I'll need to secure these things for transport is well taken. Most likely I'll keep the magnetizing going and stick them to a steel sheet, particularly with how light the minis are.
I've been converting all my foam to plastic bins with magnets. The metal Warmachine models are a little too top heavy to do that, but I'm looking forward to transporting the new armies that way.
Or you need stronger magnets When I played warmachine back in MK1 with all METAL warjacks I put some strong magnets resulting in that I could store and carry with warjacks hanging upside down from the roof of the box...
Well once I figured how to keep the MAGNET glued up to the base reliably That was the weak point of that idea...
LunarSol wrote: Looks like Khador's resculpted infantry doesn't have the repeat issue going on:
Those are some nice renders, shame they couldn't just revisit the old Winter Guard with updated models like this.
The Khador rifle mage Warcaster looks... 'interesting'. The wolf pelt and general look seem at odds with that rifle from an Infinity model he is holding. One foot in the steam punk world of Warmachine, the other firmly in a Sci-Fi setting.
Looks like they optimized the orientation for print time, rather than surface quality, which is weird on such a relatively small piece. Or maybe it's just a basic mistake.
Either way, this is something that should have been corrected after the first test print.
Edit: Looking at the arm piece at the bottom right of the photo, you can see another area of print lines on what appears to be a flat surface. Again, either a print time optimized orientation or one that minimizes supports at the expense of surface quality.
that rifle from an Infinity model he is holding. One foot in the steam punk world of Warmachine, the other firmly in a Sci-Fi setting.
That is one of the huge turn offs for me with MKIV (along with the lack of templates and facing) i already play infinity and i have a good size collection of that, i have no interest in turning WM/H into that(or AOS or 8th ed 40K etc..).
New warcaster and 3 attack types... I don't get PP's streamlining policy. They remove front arcs to decrease "mental load" but at the same time keep the bloated amount of rules on model cards.
Seriously, in your experience, what is the question you hear more often in moments of confusion:
"How exactly do these front arcs work, again?"
or
"What special rules do your models have, again?"
I'm looking forward to seeing whether the Archons keep their humungous list of special rules that takes up the entire back of the card in microscopic font. Decreasing mental load my ...
Cyel wrote: New warcaster and 3 attack types... I don't get PP's streamlining policy. They remove front arcs to decrease "mental load" but at the same time keep the bloated amount of rules on model cards.
In fairness, he's a Gunmage. They've always had 3 attack types. It's kind of their thing. In practice they've never been a problem in Cygnar.
The Khador rifle mage Warcaster looks... 'interesting'. The wolf pelt and general look seem at odds with that rifle from an Infinity model he is holding. One foot in the steam punk world of Warmachine, the other firmly in a Sci-Fi setting.
The main tech upgrade on that rifle is the existence of a clip. Everything else is the mechanika that every Warcaster weapon has to allow them to boost. Sloan has similar bits along her rifle to serve a similar function, though they're separated more and not covering as much of the rifle they're bolted onto.
Toofast wrote: I never understood that. I collect sports cars and watches, which I would consider luxury hobbies.
Luxury is relative to wealth in its contemporary use. For some people the excess and comfort described by the word might be being able to do something that isn't necessary, i.e. a personal excess. For others, it might involve the waving one's digital junk around online in the sad hope that someone else sees the importance of things their wealth allows them to consume because it's not enough to conspicuously spend and to share that with friends who also spend in excess, but must also involve announcing it to random other people to stroke one's ego.
Words can have different meanings, like I consider a hobby making something, while others might consider consumption a hobby in itself.
Cyel wrote: New warcaster and 3 attack types... I don't get PP's streamlining policy. They remove front arcs to decrease "mental load" but at the same time keep the bloated amount of rules on model cards.
Seriously, in your experience, what is the question you hear more often in moments of confusion:
"How exactly do these front arcs work, again?"
or
"What special rules do your models have, again?"
I'm looking forward to seeing whether the Archons keep their humungous list of special rules that takes up the entire back of the card in microscopic font. Decreasing mental load my ...
The problem with front arcs isn't "how do they work" its that once the game gets going 80% of the time a player is trying to move or attack they need to pause to check the facings of a half dozen models to determine free strikes, target validity, etc. TBH, with the removal of free strikes from the game the issues with front arcs drop dramatically, likewise by removing front arcs most of the issues with free strikes disappear, so I don't know that the removal of both was really needed.
Cyel wrote: New warcaster and 3 attack types... I don't get PP's streamlining policy. They remove front arcs to decrease "mental load" but at the same time keep the bloated amount of rules on model cards.
Seriously, in your experience, what is the question you hear more often in moments of confusion:
"How exactly do these front arcs work, again?"
or
"What special rules do your models have, again?"
I'm looking forward to seeing whether the Archons keep their humungous list of special rules that takes up the entire back of the card in microscopic font. Decreasing mental load my ...
The problem with front arcs isn't "how do they work" its that once the game gets going 80% of the time a player is trying to move or attack they need to pause to check the facings of a half dozen models to determine free strikes, target validity, etc. TBH, with the removal of free strikes from the game the issues with front arcs drop dramatically, likewise by removing front arcs most of the issues with free strikes disappear, so I don't know that the removal of both was really needed.
I really wish they wouldn't have listed that bullet point as "removing free strikes". The new disengagement penalty is pretty severe and does a good job of limiting abuses from the new movement system. I found it generally kept the ability to use a model's engagement range to protect my caster, in many ways better than I could in mk3.
Also I hated trying to determine front arcs. Even when they’re painted on the base it’s amazing how bad people are at lining that up. And then there’s the half of the people who ain’t marked em. It’s cool in theory, tedious in practice.
Removing facing was at the very top of my wishlist for MK4, since it was a major time suck and, as Aduro mentions, wasn't particularly well supported by PP (look at Infinity's new bases or hell huge bases in WMH to see how they could have designed for it). I didn't expect the weirdness with units teleporting and all that, but I'm still willing to believe it's a feature and not a bug.
I really like facing as a mechanic, I really wish more games would use it. That said, in Warmachine it mattered in game time far more than it had meaningful applications in the rules. I like how it contributed to Warmachine's American football vibe, but the more different games I play the more clunky all the unit manipulation in Warmachine felt for me.
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NinthMusketeer wrote: I do think facing has a place in wargames, just not on everything by default.
I think part of the issue is the 180 arc. It creates a kind of weirdness where it covers a pretty huge area and rarely results in blind spots that matter.
Part of me prefers the X shaped facing of something like X-Wing where your blind spot is technically smaller (90 instead of 180) but you can make the front 90 more important than the side 90's.
NinthMusketeer wrote: The theory is good and it seems sensible on paper, but in practice it often just isn't fun and doesn't even make sense for a lot of models.
I do think facing has a place in wargames, just not on everything by default.
Facing is not only hugely important as a game mechanic it is also an issue of immersion.
While for some it is key, others like you said don't consider it for massed infantry for speed of play but things like vehicles it is still important to prevent the whirling dervish phenomenon ala 9th ed 40K
Games i play and the importance of facing/average army size per player in minis for a full scale game
.classic battletech- huge/4 or 5
.infinity-huge/10
.warmachine MKIII-huge/10-20
.DUST 1947-vehicles only/15-20+
.40K 5th edition-vehicles only/30+
.B5 wars-huge/2-4 capitol class ships + small craft/escorts
.victory at sea-huge/4-8
.BFG-huge/8-12
The games that are more skirmish level have the extra layers of rules for more depth of play because they are not massed army games that would bog down with huge model counts
I didn't follow WM/H past like, Apotheosis, and everyone makes it sound like the engagement size got bigger, not smaller. If they'd stayed small I could have seen moving facings to just Jacks and having that matter, do an X-shaped facing diagram and have the arms and maybe even rear armor matter for a more detailed, smaller scale battle. Doesn't seem like that's at all the direction they've chosen, so ditching the facings probably makes sense.
Infinity is one of my favorite games and one I love has facing, but its a big example of where I don't love 180 facing. Its so common for characters often face weird directions to cover both directions of a corridor rather than the direction they're really focused on.
Personally I feel a decent rule of thumb is 'could this model spin around in place on demand?' If the answer is yes facing rules for it would still provide additional depth, but such would probably (though not always) cost more fun than it provides.
This is not to say it is rare for the answer to be no; quite the opposite. Vehicles (not including mecha-style) be they on land, sea, air, or space, are a common item to receive facing rules. Some games manage better than others. Bringing things back to WMH, there are definitely models which fall into this category for which I feel such rules would not only be appropriate, but gameplay would feel clunky without them.
The one thing I generally like about removing facing is it guarantees you can move things in a way that looks cool. Too often facing rules force you to avoid eye contact for tactical reasons, which always feels lame. Granted, the direct facing rules in WM generally kept this to a minimum.
I think the thematics are to weak. People don't want to play 'Armored Steel Division Whatever', they want to play Khador. Or Cygnar. Or the rest of them. Investment into a faction is the core underpinning any collectible miniature game.
I understand why pp wanted to split things into subfactions - model bloat. But themelists tried to brute force it. Not the way to do it. There were other issues with the old game that compounded into it falling away, but the theme lists were a big one.
Start with the thematics. Before you even do lore. Figure out what the factions mean for the players, not what the lore says they are. Then demonstrate you understand that. That'd be the way to try and bring some players back.
Nah, factions are irrelevant. Go look at 40k fans. How many of them are "Imperium" faction players, as opposed to "Space Marine", "Imperial Guard", "Adeptus Custodes", or "Sisters of Battle" theme players? You can go even further with Space Marines and Guard, in that you have "Space Wolf", "Blood Angels", "Dark Angels", "Salamanders", "Black Templars" players, instead of Space Marine players, and likewise "Death Korps of Krieg", "Cadian", "Catachan", "Vostroyan", "Elysian", etc. players instead of Guard players.
chaos0xomega wrote: Nah, factions are irrelevant. Go look at 40k fans. How many of them are "Imperium" faction players, as opposed to "Space Marine", "Imperial Guard", "Adeptus Custodes", or "Sisters of Battle" theme players? You can go even further with Space Marines and Guard, in that you have "Space Wolf", "Blood Angels", "Dark Angels", "Salamanders", "Black Templars" players, instead of Space Marine players, and likewise "Death Korps of Krieg", "Cadian", "Catachan", "Vostroyan", "Elysian", etc. players instead of Guard players.
Except Imperium is more an alliance, the factions in it are guard/marines/mech/custodes/sisters. When building a list faction is the level you chose what group your playing as, you don’t chose imperium, you chose a faction and imperium is just a keyword that means your “mercenaries” integrate with your army and don’t just show up alongside it. Like how Kazay are technically mercs in mk3 but are Khador partisans and actually count as Khador models in most situations.
Personally a cohesive faction theme is super important. When I got into Warmachine I wanted Khador except for winter guard and doom reaver units. I wanted an elite fantasy steampunk tsarist Russian army.
At the same time Space Marines are an enigma that even GW has never managed to copy. Not other wargame has a single faction who have subfactions (who started out as just paint and minor rule differences) who sell as much as main line armies.
The other problem with fragmentation of a single army into many other smaller ones is that you fragment the playerbase. This means 1 "race" has perhaps 5 or more sub-groups. Each player within those subgroups might play only 1 subgroup.
So now a new Khador model might only fit a few of those subgroups. This leaves other players of the same faction group without any new model. It means longer gaps between models unless you can up your production.
Even Games Workshop suffers from this with regard to Space Marines dominating releases at certain spots during its lifecycle.
Yes taking a big faction and fragmenting it means smaller individual armies to balance; means creating new gaps within those smaller factions to release models into; but it can also mean that you've got more individual customer groups to support.
Another issue is visual identity. You go from a handful of very visually distinct forces to a sea of forces, but where many of them are very visually similar.
ChaoticMind wrote: When I got into Warmachine I wanted Khador except for winter guard and doom reaver units. I wanted an elite fantasy steampunk tsarist Russian army.
So what you're saying is that you also wanted to play an "army" rather than a "faction"?
You just said it yourself - you didn't didn't want to play Wolves of Winter or Winter Guard Kommand. PP has made it easy for your, because now you don't have to worry about your armies being balanced around the inclusion of models from those Themes/Armies, instead you can just play Armored Korps and Legions of Steel with the confidence that your army will be fully supported and balanced as a standalone force.
The other problem with fragmentation of a single army into many other smaller ones is that you fragment the playerbase. This means 1 "race" has perhaps 5 or more sub-groups. Each player within those subgroups might play only 1 subgroup.
So now a new Khador model might only fit a few of those subgroups. This leaves other players of the same faction group without any new model. It means longer gaps between models unless you can up your production.
I think the goal here is basically "churn". Players can be confident that a roughly ~$400 or so investment gets them a reasonably complete and well balanced army that they won't necessarily need to continually update with new models to chase the meta with, i.e. theres not quite an "upkeep" cost like there was in previous editions where you could be reasonably certain that you would have to drop 50 bucks every few months on each of your factions in order to remain relevant. Instead every few months players might drop a few hundred on buying an individual army and be done with it, including one-offs from different factions, without feeling like they are committing to a lifetime of continued investment. On top of that, there are cadres which allow more listbuilding flexibility and will likely attract additional investment from players. So basically, players "churn" by buying into different armies and/or cadres every so often at a higher cost, rather than by dropping smaller amounts on a regular basis into individual model purchases to expand a single army as is the case with GW.
As the multi-list SR format is rumored to be based on lists chosen from one *army* rather than from a faction, my guess is that players are going to definitely want to invest into cadres relating to the armies that they are committed to playing by default, in order to ensure they have the flexibility and tools needed to remain competitive. But I also imagine that many players will get sick of playing the same army constantly and will diversify into other armies, potentially from other factions. I think its a solid approach to business model and will pay out to PP in a good way.
ChaoticMind wrote: When I got into Warmachine I wanted Khador except for winter guard and doom reaver units. I wanted an elite fantasy steampunk tsarist Russian army.
So what you're saying is that you also wanted to play an "army" rather than a "faction"?
You just said it yourself - you didn't didn't want to play Wolves of Winter or Winter Guard Kommand. PP has made it easy for your, because now you don't have to worry about your armies being balanced around the inclusion of models from those Themes/Armies, instead you can just play Armored Korps and Legions of Steel with the confidence that your army will be fully supported and balanced as a standalone force.
Not really, they have theme lists that support going all in on MoW or IFP but the benefits are so overwhelming doing a mix of MoW, and IFP Ulhans leaves me way behind. I play factions, in infinity I can play my Combined Army and get benefits for staying in just the Morat/Shasvasti/Onyx sub faction but lose out on what the other two offer or I can forgo the subfaction buffs and get a mix that aren’t as specialized to a specific style of play and have my psycho mob draw fire while my sneaks and elites get into position.
I think the goal here is basically "churn". Players can be confident that a roughly ~$400 or so investment gets them a reasonably complete and well balanced army that they won't necessarily need to continually update with new models to chase the meta with, i.e. theres not quite an "upkeep" cost like there was in previous editions where you could be reasonably certain that you would have to drop 50 bucks every few months on each of your factions in order to remain relevant. Instead every few months players might drop a few hundred on buying an individual army and be done with it, including one-offs from different factions, without feeling like they are committing to a lifetime of continued investment.
No.
Completely wrong here. i love MKIII and i have never done anything of the sort. i play what i play because i like the models. i run a mix of winter guard and manowar in the same list. i didn't even care about the faction when i started because i was after certain models. i joke about khador now because i know more about the lore in the iron kindoms but the army build isn't based off stupid things like SR. we play casual fun games without theme force restrictions/bonuses so we can use what we like, and because it is usually 50 point games i can switch out things to keep the list fun between the 5 jacks, 4 units, 5 solos, 3 attachements, 2 casters and a single battle engine i can make some interesting combos without having to buy another model.
MKIVs proposed cadre/army restrictions are exactly the opposite of what i like to do with WM/H and one of many reasons i will not be playing it.
Ok. That doesn't make me completely wrong. You aren't the typical warmachine player/customer and very clearly not their intended customer - that much is obvious from your posts about the other games you play as well as your own statements here. If you don't like it and don't want to play it, then thats fine, nobody is forcing you to.
Unlimited format includes all models, including all Prime models. So it's still possible to play that way.
That said, you can be sure PP will make Armies that are a mix of various units, but with restrictions elsewhere to prevent it from getting out of control. I'm thinking Armies that represent specific moments of time and specific team ups out of a much smaller pool of mixed units.
Not only is it a good idea to allow more interesting army combinations, it allows PP to sell more units. But, let's hope they don't let their idea of business get in front of making a good, balanced, and manageable game as they have done 3 times before. It has to be done very carefully.
"However, we have recently learned that in many countries outside of the United States, there are consumer protection laws that prohibit the inclusion of small, high-powered magnets in toys and model kits because of the dangers the magnets pose to small children in the event they are swallowed. In compliance with these laws and out of an abundance of caution, we will not be including the magnets in the kits but will instead offer them as a separate, paired product, with the magnets contained in child-resistant bottles for an increased measure of safety."
oof - that's a pain in the ass. You would think they'd just be able to slap a "Ages 12 and up" sticker on the box or something.
Distributor info for the Khador Winter Korps starter set is in the wild. Oddly none of it seems to line up, so I can't really tell what's in the box. A lot of it is just stuff I already have, its very much classic Khador, but the sculpts are looking like huge upgrades. The stuff in the new video is looking particularly sharp:
The problem is sometimes its a nightmare actually finding out the codes and restrictions and jumping through all the right hoops to make sure that you are compliant. Then you've got to do it all for the next country and the next etc...
Sometimes its a headache that takes a simple idea and makes it complicated. Plus game companies have to be careful when it comes to age restrictions, it might not just mean a mark on the box; some stores might simply not stock products over X age; some approvals come with costs for inspection and approval.
Overread wrote: The problem is sometimes its a nightmare actually finding out the codes and restrictions and jumping through all the right hoops to make sure that you are compliant. Then you've got to do it all for the next country and the next etc...
Sometimes its a headache that takes a simple idea and makes it complicated. Plus game companies have to be careful when it comes to age restrictions, it might not just mean a mark on the box; some stores might simply not stock products over X age; some approvals come with costs for inspection and approval.
Same thing with the new VAT regulations from last july. I now have the option of not selling to the EU or engaging a company to act as my official surrogate in remitting VAT simply because one of the new requirements is said representative must be in an EU country.
This is a nightmare for small US businesses, as we've either been kept out of the EU market or have to pay monthly fees simply to remit sales tax.
When, in all honestly, the EU could open a secure online portal and achieve the same result of getting paid.
This is huge and in more than one ways.
I honestly thought PP was slowly going toward a slow and sad sunset, but ho boy was I wrong.
I’ve always thought that PP had way better design and business model than GW, but sadly they never got the legs to walk into the light.
Seeing them making big moves could have an broader impact on the TT industry as a whole, especially on GW and its quickly degrading business model.
Jack Customization At a time were GW is slowly backing away from the concept of wargear PP is finally getting around having different loadout for their minies rather than having completely different kits for what could have easily just been additional weapons.
This is good, but I don't really see how that makes it not retro compatible with older models.
What exactly prevent them from releasing a new Hammersmith chassis, with Centurion bits, and a bunch of other stuff too, yaknow, like a 40k dread?
When you think about it, warmachine could have easily merged most of the jacks into a single light and heavy chassis per faction, with different weapons.
Command Cards It's pretty funny to see PP roll out with what many have asked GW to do with the stratagems:
Make them part of the army creation, limite the number you can bring at the start of the game and make sure your opponent knows what you have in your hand ot greatly reduce the burden of knowledge and gotcha moment the system bring.
This is EXACTLY what stratagem should have been.
Digital Age And the best part? Thos cards are free and the models rules and related app are free, this is MASSIVE. They already did the whole free rules thing but solidifying that way will cast a clear shadow on GW buy cards/books/app model that not only create many massive barrier to entry for any new players (wana pay 100+ bucks of paper before being able to get into the miniature game?) but also kneecap hard the balancing of the game by hanchoring it around books.
I don’t know about you, but I couldn’t keep up with the current “up to date” version of 40k without wahapedia. The game is caked in layer after layer of update, expension, addons and errata to the point of being totally unusable. Having a place that centralize every single up to date rules is necarssarly both for new and old player.
Hell, I’ve bought a couple of armies that I probably would never have just because I could take a long and hard look at their rules before jumping in.
Moving the books into a “more of a world guide than a rules manual” is EXACTLY the right move.
I’d buy codexes for most armies, if they were actual great lore, painting and hobby guide than overpriced PDF delivery that will be outdated before hitting the shelves.
Think of the Heraldry books of Warhammer fantasy, but with way more lore and painting on top of it.
And that app will continue PP legacy of betatesting rules and taking feedback from players, something all game desperately need these days.
This is one of the area where PP was always century ahead of GW, and they have once again taken the right path.
This is the part I really, REALLY hope GW players take note of, and hopefully realize that there’s another way to do things out there, a better way. If enough people realize that, GW may finally be forced to adapt to that new set of standards and expectations.
Armies & Prime Format Army sounds like a great way to design more self-contained forces, but I can also smell the very, VERY strong reek of the «The game Prime system has a rotation ala MTG, so now X army is out of Prime and a new one comes in” (basically what GW has been doing with many of their smaller games), because you know this is going to happen. The whole point of that MTG style format is to be able to rotate what is “the current thing”, keep the meta fresh, the store shelves streamlined with only the current products, and the pocket of the seller as full of possible with the cash of people having to constantly pay to keep up.
I don’t think I’d want to invest in a game where my army has a clear, and probably rather short, shelf life. It’s already bad when you have to deal with cards, but at least there you can somewhat cut your loses by selling them to collectors, here it’s going to be just awful.
On a side note, Merging Warmachine & Horde is a long overdue thing that I’m glad to see finally realized. The idea was cute, but it was more of a hindrance than anything in the end.
3D Printing Can’t believe PP got stuck for so long on metal, but I have to admit seeing them moving to 3D printing is a very, VERY smart move.
As much as I don’t like resin, especially 3D printed resin (as a material to work with), it’s now extremely affordable to use, and can deliver quality on par, if not better, than even GW plastic.
It’s going to suck for hobbying, but PP was never much a kitbashing game anyway, and it’s still a massive step up from metal.
As long as they don’t cheap out by buying some trash 3D printer or having low quality assurance, this is definitely the wining move for them, and hopefully it will mean they’ll set a new standard in miniature pricing, way under GW, which just like with the free rules and app, could seriously give a new perspective to the many, MANY players that have been hanchored for decades by GW.
If they do it right, this could be a great improvement to the whole table top miniature market.
The Pricing This is sadly where PP fail, and fail pretty hard at that.
200 $ for 20 intantry and 2 warjacks seems very expensive, especially for 3D printed material. That’s Black Templar level of ripoff right there, and there’s not even a book inside.
175$ for 15 infantry is just insane.
And they do that because they want to focus on retailer, when the bulk of their new business model should be just like their rules, digital.
Have an online store and make all minies print on demand, that’s literally the best part of 3D printing, you can easily print specifically what you want at any time, why focus on the dying retail market!?
And more importantly, why are you pricing your stuff at the same price than your main competitor, the notoriously insanely overpriced GW?!
“but since the armies are small, you are comparatively paying less for a full army”
Yeah, sure but I’m also paying too much for too little minies!
I get that you want to encourage your LGS, but what if I don’t have a LGS? And what if my army needs an additional specific unit? Will I have to buy a full bundle or be forced to pay the “online store tax” (this is a mindblowing concept ng).
If you really want to help LGS, just sell them your product at retailer price so they can sell it at the same price or cheaper than online rather than punishing people from going to the online store.
The Planning As for the release schedule, that seems desperately slow More than a full year with only 3 factions slowly rolling out, leading to the release or another new faction…
Why doing all that song and dance about how “this is totly not End Times guys! We aint blowing the world” if what you are doing is basically AoS, releasing new factions while leaving the many others in the dust. They didn’t even include Cryx, one of the OG warmachine factions…
Overall I love what they are doing, but got damn man they could have had such a major and easy win here with a better pricing, a faster release shedul and some major shift toward online distribution rather than LGS focus...
I really hope their plan will succeed to save PP, and more importantly to make an impact on the TT miniature world by giving a new perspective to people that have been fed gak by GW for decades.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh god, the tactical rock infection is spreading... And they got duplicates poses and even just reused the same banner carrier for different units.
That's unacceptable.
Spoiler:
Aight, if that's the quality they are going with, it's DAO.
With so many round surfaces (literally all of it is rounded), that level of striation is way beyond anything acceptable.
It's not just some stuff "you can't really see with naked eye", that's BRUTAL.
Some light sanding fixes all that. And given you have to clean mold lines and fill seam lines with other model lines means we are all used to SOME prep.
FWIW, while the exact contents of these sets isn't known, just going by names we've seen I suspect part of the price is due to them being larger models in general. The caster shown is large based and I suspect the Storm Lance Legionaries will likely remain mounted 50 mm models as well. The Assailers are looking to be 40 mm as well, so all in all it seems like a box of stuff that generally runs a higher price per model in general. Time will tell though, I totally reserve the right to be wrong here.
I think the sticker shock on the army starters is a real problem and I would really love to see the Warcaster C+2 Jack bundles be an SKU instead of a solo product. That said, I'm a lot happier with what you get out of them knowing that they contain significantly more than 50 points worth of stuff. You can't actually take everything in the box, even with the most bare bones jacks, and I'm finding the customization options compelling enough that dropping a unit likely worthwhile. The box not being a static 50 but something with options to build multiple 50 point army options from makes it far more palatable to me, but I still wish there was a better low cost option.
The sticker shock is a worry. Whilst GW has pushed up their own entry prices by moving from the Battleforces to the Vanguard sets, they've also doubled down on things like Warcry, Killteam and Underworlds as gateways into their product line.
I worry that Warmachine - which needs everyone they can jumping into the new system, is going to stall its initial growth potential by having such high priced gateway products.
Granted I'm guessing that their market strategy right now is to appeal to existing, former and current wargame fans. So people who are already into PP or at least wargaming and thus might spend more.
It's risky though, most games aim to start low and tempt people in. Offering cheap, small format games and packs that might not be a whole army/force/whatever; but which offer enough to get you to the table playing. You need that early connection before people start spending out the big money and that's where the more expensive starter sets work - as an expansion point and/or start point for those moving to a new force who are already bought in.
Then again perhaps they are after a really slow burn and hope that high priced sets sell well and will match their production output. So they can slowly ramp up production with steady increases of sales rather than start out with a massive surge that exceeds production too much?
rayphoton wrote: Some light sanding fixes all that. And given you have to clean mold lines and fill seam lines with other model lines means we are all used to SOME prep.
I'm sure. But I get better prints on my dinky desktop printer. I won't be paying premium for that.
rayphoton wrote: Some light sanding fixes all that. And given you have to clean mold lines and fill seam lines with other model lines means we are all used to SOME prep.
I'm sure. But I get better prints on my dinky desktop printer. I won't be paying premium for that.
And I could usually get better casts in the resin shop at my old school than pretty much any company making resin or plastic models. For some reason I still bought models. Perhaps that is because I did not actually have master models to copy, just as you do not have the digital files.
If the product cleans up and assembles faster than the old stuff and a lot of competitors' product? That's what going to count.
Aight, if that's the quality they are going with, it's DAO.
With so many round surfaces (literally all of it is rounded), that level of striation is way beyond anything acceptable.
It's not just some stuff "you can't really see with naked eye", that's BRUTAL.
It's not. I got hold of a kit from a gencon ninja shopper and those pictures are from a bunch of playtesters who accidentally were sent faulty product. This was after they had a falling out with the company, and they gleefully shared them everywhere, in a Some Men Just Want To See The World Burn-style.
At Gencon PP had a customer satisfaction guaranteed guarantee, you could return product for money back or new kit. As far as I know, they had one kit returned at Gencon and I have seen 4-5 instances of mispacks or individual faulty prints that they handle through the usual PP replacement portal.
most games aim to start low and tempt people in. Offering cheap, small format games
Catalyst did that in spades for classic battletech. the new plastics are good quality and since the game has always only needed 4 or 5 minis to play a normal game a buy in price of 25-30$ for a complete army with pre-assembled minis has led to a huge explosion in popularity.
So people who are already into PP or at least wargaming and thus might spend more
I already did, but not for the reason they want. i finished off my collection of models i needed for MKIII because i have no interest in MKIV so i needed to get them before they were gone or changed into something less aesthetically pleasing for the steam punk setting i like.
Kaptajn Congoboy wrote: And I could usually get better casts in the resin shop at my old school than pretty much any company making resin or plastic models. For some reason I still bought models. Perhaps that is because I did not actually have master models to copy, just as you do not have the digital files.
If the product cleans up and assembles faster than the old stuff and a lot of competitors' product? That's what going to count.
I still buy models, too. But not these ones, at least not until they are as premium as their price purports.
Kaptajn Congoboy wrote: It's not. I got hold of a kit from a gencon ninja shopper and those pictures are from a bunch of playtesters who accidentally were sent faulty product. This was after they had a falling out with the company, and they gleefully shared them everywhere, in a Some Men Just Want To See The World Burn-style.
That's nice and all, but that's still the quality point I have. Until they show they are better, it's a no go.
Thats a weird way to put it. Thats like saying Khador Winter Guard and Cygnar Trenchers are the same thing because they are both humans carrying guns. The new sculpts are definitely a strong callback to winter guard, but they are clearly equipped differently - sabers instead of axes, the addition of grenades, heavier armor, more advanced firearms, etc.
It's not. I got hold of a kit from a gencon ninja shopper and those pictures are from a bunch of playtesters who accidentally were sent faulty product. This was after they had a falling out with the company, and they gleefully shared them everywhere, in a Some Men Just Want To See The World Burn-style.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. "accidentally".
So, did the faulty piece just rolled off the table, drop into an envelope and sent itself to them?
And ofc it was sent to some very nasty people that just shared the picture because they had a "falling out" and "wanted to see the world burn"?
Kaptajn Congoboy wrote: At Gencon PP had a customer satisfaction guaranteed guarantee, you could return product for money back or new kit. As far as I know, they had one kit returned at Gencon and I have seen 4-5 instances of mispacks or individual faulty prints that they handle through the usual PP replacement portal.
Right, so they have the same generic policy than everyone else on the market, and have clear quality assurance problem.
Thats a weird way to put it. Thats like saying Khador Winter Guard and Cygnar Trenchers are the same thing because they are both humans carrying guns. The new sculpts are definitely a strong callback to winter guard, but they are clearly equipped differently - sabers instead of axes, the addition of grenades, heavier armor, more advanced firearms, etc.
Oh, don't get me wrong, these are dramatically better sculpts than the existing line. Like the new Rockets are soooooo much better than what I have and the base infantry is full of character and detail the existing line lacks. The flags look great; sculpt wise it all looks great. I'm just saying it doesn't "feel" new yet; just like a heavy resculpt. It'll start to feel new once I've seen more of the new stuff. The new Shocktroopers in the art look really cool and the machine gun guys are exciting. I'm just curious to see more of that and less of the stuff that feels the same as the army I have.
Weird take. We have hundreds of kits sold at gencon with one return. And dozens of kits being reported on by customers who seem happy with them, on FB, Reddit and the discords.
Weird take. We have hundreds of kits sold at gencon with one return. And dozens of kits being reported on by customers who seem happy with them, on FB, Reddit and the discords.
And a lot of calls for the cheaper sets sold at Gencon to be made mainstream to help lower that sticker shot and entry level price range.
Weird take. We have hundreds of kits sold at gencon with one return. And dozens of kits being reported on by customers who seem happy with them, on FB, Reddit and the discords.
And a lot of calls for the cheaper sets sold at Gencon to be made mainstream to help lower that sticker shot and entry level price range.
Which is probably reasonable. Now the savings on the gencon sets were just 10-20% but it would be cool to have a battlebox-style kit. Possibly with a solo in it.
We know they really have gone all in on answering retailer cries from the last 5 years to dramatically reduce SKUS, but it would just be +1/faction. And tbh, they could roll the warcaster into that SKU.
Weird take. We have hundreds of kits sold at gencon with one return. And dozens of kits being reported on by customers who seem happy with them, on FB, Reddit and the discords.
And a lot of calls for the cheaper sets sold at Gencon to be made mainstream to help lower that sticker shot and entry level price range.
Which is probably reasonable. Now the savings on the gencon sets were just 10-20% but it would be cool to have a battlebox-style kit. Possibly with a solo in it.
We know they really have gone all in on answering retailer cries from the last 5 years to dramatically reduce SKUS, but it would just be +1/faction. And tbh, they could roll the warcaster into that SKU.
It would actually further cut their SKU count by 2. There's little reason for the individual Caster/Warjack boxes. Particularly if they sell Warjacks as singles like they plan to for units.
Weird take. We have hundreds of kits sold at gencon with one return. And dozens of kits being reported on by customers who seem happy with them, on FB, Reddit and the discords.
I'm not as sure as you about how many people actually took a close enough look to their stuff to detect things like layer lines on unprimed resin.
Weird take. We have hundreds of kits sold at gencon with one return. And dozens of kits being reported on by customers who seem happy with them, on FB, Reddit and the discords.
I'm not as sure as you about how many people actually took a close enough look to their stuff to detect things like layer lines on unprimed resin.
Which is a fair comment, heck a lot of people don't even deal with mould lines and are very happy gamers.
Weird take. We have hundreds of kits sold at gencon with one return. And dozens of kits being reported on by customers who seem happy with them, on FB, Reddit and the discords.
I'm not as sure as you about how many people actually took a close enough look to their stuff to detect things like layer lines on unprimed resin.
More to the point, on multiple occasions I've had visible layer lines on an unprimed model that have completely disappeared once they're painted.
Now, given the stereotypical WMH, this might still present somewhat of a problem, but the solution will be available to them.
Weird take. We have hundreds of kits sold at gencon with one return. And dozens of kits being reported on by customers who seem happy with them, on FB, Reddit and the discords.
Are you working for PP?
Do you have direct access to their support line, or are you just basic your opinion on some anecdotal social media posts (only the ones that fit your little narrative tho, the others are apparently just "mistakes" from very evil people that apparently have something to gain from... just posting picture of the models? (talk about "weird take" indeed).
I have good contacts in PP and I am very disappointed with the aforementioned people, several of whom I have personally corresponded with in the past. They are not evil, but they have not handled themselves well in the last few weeks.
Kaptajn Congoboy wrote: I have good contacts in PP and I am very disappointed with the aforementioned people, several of whom I have personally corresponded with in the past. They are not evil, but they have not handled themselves well in the last few weeks.
I also have one of the Gencon kits myself.
I actually couldn’t be happier that they have refused to let an internet mob ruin a relaunch with great product on the basis of zero facts.
Kaptajn Congoboy wrote: I have good contacts in PP and I am very disappointed with the aforementioned people, several of whom I have personally corresponded with in the past. They are not evil, but they have not handled themselves well in the last few weeks.
I also have one of the Gencon kits myself.
I actually couldn’t be happier that they have refused to let an internet mob ruin a relaunch with great product on the basis of zero facts.
What are you two referring to exactly ?
I haven't paid attention to what PP have said and done outside of their own official announcement on MKIV and pictures of the kits they, themselves, have sent to people.
While their push for free rules is nice, everything on the actual mini side looks just bad, from the price to the actual mini quality itself (again, simply going by what I've seen, from MULTIPLE source, what PP is offering looks like very middle of the road 3D printing quality, something certain not worth the asked price).
LunarSol wrote: cut their SKU count by 2. There's little reason for the individual Caster/Warjack boxes. Particularly if they sell Warjacks as singles like they plan to for units.
Umm so if you want additional jacks you need to buy combo boxes with warcasters you can only use one? Cuts down savings a lot.
LunarSol wrote: cut their SKU count by 2. There's little reason for the individual Caster/Warjack boxes. Particularly if they sell Warjacks as singles like they plan to for units.
Umm so if you want additional jacks you need to buy combo boxes with warcasters you can only use one? Cuts down savings a lot.
Presumably you'd be able to order singles off their webstore just like you can with any other unit in the army that is otherwise bundled. As is, having 4 jacks feels like plenty anyway.
I was one of the ones that missed out on the $75 boxes, so if anyone has an extra they'd be willing to part with, let me know...
Additionally, I REALLY don't like it when companies tell me they have this cool new thing I need to buy and then only offer it for approximately 14 seconds. Maybe I'm being overly sensitive but the last few years with GW have put a bad taste in my mouth.
With all of that being said, I'm still intrigued by this next step for Warmachine. I played in the good 'ol days of Mk. I and II, but didn't really play with three because I felt the armies were way too unwieldy and the game just didn't 'present' well with these massive forces just pushed together at the center of the table. It *seems* like they're trying to address that somewhat with Mk. IV, so I'll bite and give it a go. I don't have a large collection of Warmachine, and it looks like my Gremlin are safe anyway, although if I were still playing and had large forces for other armies I'd be a bit miffed about the way they're going about this. I still hope this works out for the better, though!
Kaptajn Congoboy wrote: I have good contacts in PP and I am very disappointed with the aforementioned people, several of whom I have personally corresponded with in the past. They are not evil, but they have not handled themselves well in the last few weeks.
I also have one of the Gencon kits myself.
I actually couldn’t be happier that they have refused to let an internet mob ruin a relaunch with great product on the basis of zero facts.
Are people carving the layer lines themselves? The fact is there are pictures of models which are certainly not worth the advertised price point. Will things improve by actual launch date? I hope so.
Toofast wrote: Are people carving the layer lines themselves? The fact is there are pictures of models which are certainly not worth the advertised price point. Will things improve by actual launch date? I hope so.
Yeah, I don't know, that kind of remark is weird...
How could you say there's "zero facts" when we literally got multiple peoples posting pictures of heavily marked models...
At best it's just some outliers which would indicate that the quality control of PP is not nearly as good as it should be (ESPECIALLY for what is supposed to be their "best foot forward") and at worst it just show that the quality of their printing is just not good enough to be used to print their whole game with, let alone ask GW price for it, and no matter what they will be between both of thos extremes which is more than enough info to draw some conclusion like, once again, how the price they are asking for their stuff isn't deserved.
LunarSol wrote: cut their SKU count by 2. There's little reason for the individual Caster/Warjack boxes. Particularly if they sell Warjacks as singles like they plan to for units.
Umm so if you want additional jacks you need to buy combo boxes with warcasters you can only use one? Cuts down savings a lot.
Presumably you'd be able to order singles off their webstore just like you can with any other unit in the army that is otherwise bundled. As is, having 4 jacks feels like plenty anyway.
What prices would they charge for single human-sized minis?
LunarSol wrote: cut their SKU count by 2. There's little reason for the individual Caster/Warjack boxes. Particularly if they sell Warjacks as singles like they plan to for units.
Umm so if you want additional jacks you need to buy combo boxes with warcasters you can only use one? Cuts down savings a lot.
Presumably you'd be able to order singles off their webstore just like you can with any other unit in the army that is otherwise bundled. As is, having 4 jacks feels like plenty anyway.
What prices would they charge for single human-sized minis?
"I want to just buy another caster" is an argument that makes a lot more sense when you put it that way
EDIT: To actually answer the question, the best recent comparison is the resin mk3 battlebox caster resculpts, which are webstore exclusives for about $17.
For those looking to tailor their armies more granularly, Privateer will offer a la carte purchases of models in generic packaging through the Privateer Press Online Store 60–90 days after a product releases to retail. However, on a one-to-one basis, it will save you money overall to purchase the boxed sets, which we hope will encourage you to buy from your local game store.
Welp, looking at the price of what is supposed to be discounted boxes, I'd 10 buck the standard infantry dude, minimum.
I was hoping for something more reasonable for an infantry dude. $17 for a named character is not great, but acceptable for the right miniature. $10 is fine for a well-sculpted resin schmo miniature that doesn’t look made out of micro-legos.
For these topographical map mofos, $5 is getting cheeky.
Kaptajn Congoboy wrote: I have good contacts in PP and I am very disappointed with the aforementioned people, several of whom I have personally corresponded with in the past. They are not evil, but they have not handled themselves well in the last few weeks.
I also have one of the Gencon kits myself.
I actually couldn’t be happier that they have refused to let an internet mob ruin a relaunch with great product on the basis of zero facts.
Are people carving the layer lines themselves? The fact is there are pictures of models which are certainly not worth the advertised price point. Will things improve by actual launch date? I hope so.
The overwhelming majority of models on Facebook and elsewhere are quite good quality.
The zero facts is referring to the rage mob during Gencon of allegedly unsafe products.
LunarSol wrote: cut their SKU count by 2. There's little reason for the individual Caster/Warjack boxes. Particularly if they sell Warjacks as singles like they plan to for units.
Umm so if you want additional jacks you need to buy combo boxes with warcasters you can only use one? Cuts down savings a lot.
Presumably you'd be able to order singles off their webstore just like you can with any other unit in the army that is otherwise bundled. As is, having 4 jacks feels like plenty anyway.
What prices would they charge for single human-sized minis?
Materials and averaged costs, x 4 or more, depending on how greedy you want to be..
A single 28mm figure (GW guardsmen scale) on a garbage tier resin costs 50 cents usd once you average electricity, filters, actually working time handling the machine and prepping files, machine maintenance.
My base price for 28mm infantry figures is $2.50, and my resin isn't garbage tier.
Kaptajn Congoboy wrote: I have good contacts in PP and I am very disappointed with the aforementioned people, several of whom I have personally corresponded with in the past. They are not evil, but they have not handled themselves well in the last few weeks.
I also have one of the Gencon kits myself.
I actually couldn’t be happier that they have refused to let an internet mob ruin a relaunch with great product on the basis of zero facts.
Are people carving the layer lines themselves? The fact is there are pictures of models which are certainly not worth the advertised price point. Will things improve by actual launch date? I hope so.
The overwhelming majority of models on Facebook and elsewhere are quite good quality.
The zero facts is referring to the rage mob during Gencon of allegedly unsafe products.
Things certainly got heated, by reports I've heard.
But it's not zero facts. Somebody reported partially cured resin.
That is a carcinogenic liquid Capable of off-gassing VOCs which are also carcinogenic.
People have a right to be concerned about it. If even one uncured mini got boxed and sent out, thats a quality control issue, and a liability issue.
That is a carcinogenic liquid Capable of off-gassing VOCs which are also carcinogenic.
People have a right to be concerned about it. If even one uncured mini got boxed and sent out, thats a quality control issue, and a liability issue.
Removed - rule #1
Is resin not good for your health? Ofc, I think everyone knows that, but let's be honest people know they should wear protection while working on resin.
Also these items are very small and will never off-gas enough to have any impact on anyone health (if they don't start to suck or sniff them, ofc).
That is a carcinogenic liquid Capable of off-gassing VOCs which are also carcinogenic.
People have a right to be concerned about it. If even one uncured mini got boxed and sent out, thats a quality control issue, and a liability issue.
Removed - rule #1
Is resin not good for your health? Ofc, I think everyone knows that, but let's be honest people know they should wear protection while working on resin.
Also these items are very small and will never off-gas enough to have any impact on anyone health (if they don't start to suck or sniff them, ofc).
Well, the company line on the instance of the uncured resin debacle is that the person who bought it did come back to the booth eventually, and upon inspection it wasn't "uncured" but that it had a powdery residue left on due to insufficient cleaning. (Now, yes, that can happen.)
The thing about UV resins being uncured is that it does not require sucking or sniffing it for it to be dangerous; direct skin contact will cause a reaction. Probably would happen with 2 part resin, too, but either way, it's absolutely a valid concern and not only for those that "lick their minis."
And yes, cutting or sanding resin, UV or otherwise, should be done with respirators and wet sanding, etc. That wasn't the cause of the "issue" here, though.
Sure, I know that simple skin contact isn't good since, well it's resin, and that thing isn't good for the skin, but just as I said anyone that knows what they are doing know that resin is toxic and that you should always use latex glove while handling them.
Again, I'm not defending PP, that kind of stuff is straight up unacceptable, but trying to pull the "health concern" card here seems to be grossly disingenuous and on the same level than "look, the pieces are too small and my baby could have chocked on it".
Sure, that could happen, but it's more a problem stemming from how you used the product than the product itself.
The real problem is the actual product quality and quality assurance here.
Finally managed to find time to go over the beta rules and cards. Few things I noticed:
● Warcasters are free, but no longer have free Warjack points.
● Warjacks no longer have FA:U.
● Each game size has an increasing minimum Warjack/Warbeast requirement.
● 50pts is lowest size game now, and requires at least 1 Warjack/Warbeast.
● Some models have had slight stat and points changes
Looking at the MKIII Cryx Battlegroup (Agathia, Reaper, Slayer, and Deathripper) it converts to 24pts. Add in 2 units, a solo, and some pointed command cards and that will be 50pts, which is not too far from a current Brawlmachine list size wise.
Still, it would have been nice have a 25pts Duel format that is just caster and warjack/warbeast. As the rules are still in Beta stages, I hope they do add this in the final version.
Toofast wrote: Are people carving the layer lines themselves? The fact is there are pictures of models which are certainly not worth the advertised price point. Will things improve by actual launch date? I hope so.
Yeah, I don't know, that kind of remark is weird...
How could you say there's "zero facts" when we literally got multiple peoples posting pictures of heavily marked models...
At best it's just some outliers which would indicate that the quality control of PP is not nearly as good as it should be (ESPECIALLY for what is supposed to be their "best foot forward") and at worst it just show that the quality of their printing is just not good enough to be used to print their whole game with, let alone ask GW price for it, and no matter what they will be between both of thos extremes which is more than enough info to draw some conclusion like, once again, how the price they are asking for their stuff isn't deserved.
100% agree. You would expect them to go through bins of parts and pick the best ones to send out to youtubers and take to GenCon. If they did that and this is what we're getting, it says something about their competence with the new medium. If they just picked the first 100 off the printer and threw them in boxes, it says something about their business acumen.
Toofast wrote: Are people carving the layer lines themselves? The fact is there are pictures of models which are certainly not worth the advertised price point. Will things improve by actual launch date? I hope so.
Yeah, I don't know, that kind of remark is weird...
How could you say there's "zero facts" when we literally got multiple peoples posting pictures of heavily marked models...
At best it's just some outliers which would indicate that the quality control of PP is not nearly as good as it should be (ESPECIALLY for what is supposed to be their "best foot forward") and at worst it just show that the quality of their printing is just not good enough to be used to print their whole game with, let alone ask GW price for it, and no matter what they will be between both of thos extremes which is more than enough info to draw some conclusion like, once again, how the price they are asking for their stuff isn't deserved.
100% agree. You would expect them to go through bins of parts and pick the best ones to send out to youtubers and take to GenCon. If they did that and this is what we're getting, it says something about their competence with the new medium. If they just picked the first 100 off the printer and threw them in boxes, it says something about their business acumen.
At the end of the day, we see what a company chooses to show. And PP chose that.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I was hoping for something more reasonable for an infantry dude. $17 for a named character is not great, but acceptable for the right miniature. $10 is fine for a well-sculpted resin schmo miniature that doesn’t look made out of micro-legos.
For these topographical map mofos, $5 is getting cheeky.
FWIW, if you assume out of the $200 box sets that $75 for the two jacks with all their arms plus the warcaster is the going rate, it comes to $125 for the remaining 19 figures $6.58 per schmo.
Was that at GenCon, and they brought it back, and PP showed pictures of what was reported, and explained that it wasn't partially cured? Or is this referring to someone else?
Not a warmahorde player. I bought an army. Wasnt a fan.
Regardless, my group is getting into Burrows and Badgers. It is a combo of 3d prints and bespoke miniatures. Maybe in a 60-40 ratio. The whole group is excited. I think this (3DP) is, in fact, the way forward for TTWG and GW will have to start selling their IP for revenue rather than fleecing gamers for plastic. There are a few printers between us but only one of us has a resin printer. I think this will be the new paradigm and the companies who do not concentrate on compelling settings and rulesets will be left behind. I will be buying these rules and following developments even if i dont play or print. My dos centavos....
PP just dropped the complete list of Legacy armies making their way into the Prime Arena:
Blackclad Army (Circle) Tharn Army (Circle) Convergence Army Crucible Guard Army Bane Army (Cryx) Blackfleet Army (Cryx) Storm Knight Army (Cygnar) Trencher Army (Cygnar) Grymkin Army Infernals Army Man-O-War Army (Khador) Winter Guard Army (Khador) Blighted Nyss Army (Legion) Blighted Ogrun Army (Legion) Blindwater Army (Mercenary) Cephalyx Army (Mercenary) Farrow Army (Mercenary) Privateer Army (Mercenary) Rhulic Army (Mercenary) Steelhead Army (Mercenary) Exemplar Army (Protectorate) Flameguard Army (Protectorate) Dawnguard Army (Retribution) Mage Hunter Army (Retribution) Immortals Army (Skorne) Praetorian Army (Skorne) Northkin Army (Trollbloods) United Kriels Army (Trollbloods)
I am a bit surprised Storm Knights and Winter Guard are coming over, given how visually similar they are to the new MKIV armies for those factions, but hey, these all seem like fine choices.
Damn, I waited for years to get a proper Morowan army and it got removed right after it was finally introduced.
I'm frankly chocked that they didn't made an army out of them, with the order of the illumination (especially since thos guys are pretty new), the archon, Precursors, Gallant, Constance and the Legion of Lost Souls...
It would have been the perfect army to take advantage of their cadre system too.
Surprised they kept Winter Guard and Storm Knights. It'll be interesting to see what all defines things like the United Kriels, though most of these are pretty self explanatory.
United Kriels might just be the models you'd see in the Kriel Company theme, currently (non-Champion/Northkin infantry). I'm just guessing, of course, we'll have to see.
Interesting takeaway - They are referring to these as something other than their corresponding Theme names. I.E. rather than calling the Cygnar armies "Storm Division" and "Gravediggers", they are referring to them as "Storm Knight Army" and "Trencher Army". Which means that the mention of Gravediggers in the Mk4 announcement was likely a tease of a forthcomgin Mk4 Cygnar army (which - if Storm Legion and Winter Korps are any indication - will feature a modernized take on Trenchers.
It is odd that they chose to keep mk3 armies that have strong thematic overlap with the new mk4 armies. I don't see what benefit the game has from having both "Storm Knight Army" and Storm Legion as choices for play, ditto "Winter Guard Army" and Winter Korps - but I suppose this was probably more about trying to appease players and absorbing and carrying forward the most coherent and fully developed elements of Mk3 armies that would fit within the construct of the Mk4 army concept.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I was hoping for something more reasonable for an infantry dude. $17 for a named character is not great, but acceptable for the right miniature. $10 is fine for a well-sculpted resin schmo miniature that doesn’t look made out of micro-legos.
For these topographical map mofos, $5 is getting cheeky.
FWIW, if you assume out of the $200 box sets that $75 for the two jacks with all their arms plus the warcaster is the going rate, it comes to $125 for the remaining 19 figures $6.58 per schmo.
Okay, but I’m talking a la cart. If I’m forced to buy by squad, I’m looking for $2 or less per mini. $3 if the bits are useful. I won’t buy GW minis, and don’t find GW pricing acceptable for any other mini IP, possibly excepting Kingdom Death.
I suppose I’d be okay paying $7ish a mini for a royal sampler with one of each type, depending on the poses chosen.
Asmoridin wrote: United Kriels might just be the models you'd see in the Kriel Company theme, currently (non-Champion/Northkin infantry). I'm just guessing, of course, we'll have to see.
I'd be a little disappointed if it was, as that's the element of the current faction I find least appealing, but Northkin are cool so I can pivot that way in due course.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I was hoping for something more reasonable for an infantry dude. $17 for a named character is not great, but acceptable for the right miniature. $10 is fine for a well-sculpted resin schmo miniature that doesn’t look made out of micro-legos.
For these topographical map mofos, $5 is getting cheeky.
FWIW, if you assume out of the $200 box sets that $75 for the two jacks with all their arms plus the warcaster is the going rate, it comes to $125 for the remaining 19 figures $6.58 per schmo.
Okay, but I’m talking a la cart. If I’m forced to buy by squad, I’m looking for $2 or less per mini. $3 if the bits are useful. I won’t buy GW minis, and don’t find GW pricing acceptable for any other mini IP, possibly excepting Kingdom Death.
I suppose I’d be okay paying $7ish a mini for a royal sampler with one of each type, depending on the poses chosen.
I honestly cannot think of a game where you get 5 man squads for $10 at retail. Even like the cheap PVC stuff costs more than that.
Oof, unless Steelhead now encompasses a lot of the old Llaelese Resistance stuff, I'm not sure where the majority of my models are going to end up based on that list.
Siygess wrote: Oof, unless Steelhead now encompasses a lot of the old Llaelese Resistance stuff, I'm not sure where the majority of my models are going to end up based on that list.
Unlimited unfortunately. Llael has sadly always been this super compelling army concept headed by an exceptionally cool leading lady that has just never manifested into a real army. I have a likely similar collection of attempts at making them playable that has always just kind of floundered on my pile of shame.
Asmoridin wrote: United Kriels might just be the models you'd see in the Kriel Company theme, currently (non-Champion/Northkin infantry). I'm just guessing, of course, we'll have to see.
I'd be a little disappointed if it was, as that's the element of the current faction I find least appealing, but Northkin are cool so I can pivot that way in due course.
The Kriel Company stuff is at least very visually distinct and mechanically unique. It might end up getting some of the melee combined armed stuff anyway though. If not, Northkin already heavily overlaps with Band of Heroes and could easily take in some stragglers, and its got enough shaman elements it could grab a bunch of the Dhunia stuff as well.
I honestly cannot think of a game where you get 5 man squads for $10 at retail. Even like the cheap PVC stuff costs more than that.
You could probably find boxed plastic historicals at $2US per figure. But historicals sell for less than original properties - partly because the designs are semi-public domain, and partly because historicals generally have less bling.
Not likely with figures for an original property, though.
but this also depends on the army size, if you only need 5, those are more expensive than if you need 20 per unit and 5 units
Exactly why I'm never fond of PPM as a comparison. The value of a single MCP figure to me is dramatically higher than the 13 or so models I get out of a ASoIaF box set.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I was hoping for something more reasonable for an infantry dude. $17 for a named character is not great, but acceptable for the right miniature. $10 is fine for a well-sculpted resin schmo miniature that doesn’t look made out of micro-legos.
For these topographical map mofos, $5 is getting cheeky.
FWIW, if you assume out of the $200 box sets that $75 for the two jacks with all their arms plus the warcaster is the going rate, it comes to $125 for the remaining 19 figures $6.58 per schmo.
Okay, but I’m talking a la cart. If I’m forced to buy by squad, I’m looking for $2 or less per mini. $3 if the bits are useful. I won’t buy GW minis, and don’t find GW pricing acceptable for any other mini IP, possibly excepting Kingdom Death.
I suppose I’d be okay paying $7ish a mini for a royal sampler with one of each type, depending on the poses chosen.
I honestly cannot think of a game where you get 5 man squads for $10 at retail. Even like the cheap PVC stuff costs more than that.
Most HIPS products. WGA sells historicals at $35 for 30ish and Sci Fi/Fantasy at $35 for 20ish. Lots of PVC minis come cheap, too. Mantic used to sell plastic minis at $1 each, although their prices have gone way up since then. Reaper sells individual “plastic” minis at less than $5 each, and three packs for $6-$10 depending.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I was hoping for something more reasonable for an infantry dude. $17 for a named character is not great, but acceptable for the right miniature. $10 is fine for a well-sculpted resin schmo miniature that doesn’t look made out of micro-legos.
For these topographical map mofos, $5 is getting cheeky.
FWIW, if you assume out of the $200 box sets that $75 for the two jacks with all their arms plus the warcaster is the going rate, it comes to $125 for the remaining 19 figures $6.58 per schmo.
Okay, but I’m talking a la cart. If I’m forced to buy by squad, I’m looking for $2 or less per mini. $3 if the bits are useful. I won’t buy GW minis, and don’t find GW pricing acceptable for any other mini IP, possibly excepting Kingdom Death.
I suppose I’d be okay paying $7ish a mini for a royal sampler with one of each type, depending on the poses chosen.
I honestly cannot think of a game where you get 5 man squads for $10 at retail. Even like the cheap PVC stuff costs more than that.
Most HIPS products. WGA sells historicals at $35 for 30ish and Sci Fi/Fantasy at $35 for 20ish. Lots of PVC minis come cheap, too. Mantic used to sell plastic minis at $1 each, although their prices have gone way up since then. Reaper sells individual “plastic” minis at less than $5 each, and three packs for $6-$10 depending.
McDougall designs sells individual WGA sprues, meaning you can absolutely just order a single WGA infantry sprue and get 6 28mm, hard plastic historicals for 5.99$.
but this also depends on the army size, if you only need 5, those are more expensive than if you need 20 per unit and 5 units
Exactly why I'm never fond of PPM as a comparison. The value of a single MCP figure to me is dramatically higher than the 13 or so models I get out of a ASoIaF box set.
And I have a different idea of value. I’ve never bought any MCP minis, but plenty of CMON minis.
Frankly, your idea of value only makes sense for people who are already heavily invested in playing the game itself. For a new IP, without the benefit of popular lore or iconic character design, a new gamer would have no reason to pay so much. Until there’s an update established community, the game can’t afford to shock potential customers with sticker prices. Hook me with model design or fluff, and then maybe you can justify some higher prices. WMH is a dead game, whose prices were always too high. Starting a new edition with high prices, no community, and an untested product? That’s just ridiculous.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I was hoping for something more reasonable for an infantry dude. $17 for a named character is not great, but acceptable for the right miniature. $10 is fine for a well-sculpted resin schmo miniature that doesn’t look made out of micro-legos.
For these topographical map mofos, $5 is getting cheeky.
FWIW, if you assume out of the $200 box sets that $75 for the two jacks with all their arms plus the warcaster is the going rate, it comes to $125 for the remaining 19 figures $6.58 per schmo.
Okay, but I’m talking a la cart. If I’m forced to buy by squad, I’m looking for $2 or less per mini. $3 if the bits are useful. I won’t buy GW minis, and don’t find GW pricing acceptable for any other mini IP, possibly excepting Kingdom Death.
I suppose I’d be okay paying $7ish a mini for a royal sampler with one of each type, depending on the poses chosen.
I honestly cannot think of a game where you get 5 man squads for $10 at retail. Even like the cheap PVC stuff costs more than that.
Most HIPS products. WGA sells historicals at $35 for 30ish and Sci Fi/Fantasy at $35 for 20ish. Lots of PVC minis come cheap, too. Mantic used to sell plastic minis at $1 each, although their prices have gone way up since then. Reaper sells individual “plastic” minis at less than $5 each, and three packs for $6-$10 depending.
McDougall designs sells individual WGA sprues, meaning you can absolutely just order a single WGA infantry sprue and get 6 28mm, hard plastic historicals for 5.99$.
Indeed. I’ve bought sprues from him and will do so again due to the convenience and cost savings over ordering a whole “unit” box when I only want a handful of miniatures.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: And I have a different idea of value. I’ve never bought any MCP minis, but plenty of CMON minis.
the "value" is, what do I need to play the game, rather than what does the individual model cost
and the usual value of a force to play, outside the GW bubble, is 200-300€, 50-100€ for Skirmish games, so als long as the game is around those numbers it is ok
but this also depends on the army size, if you only need 5, those are more expensive than if you need 20 per unit and 5 units
Exactly why I'm never fond of PPM as a comparison. The value of a single MCP figure to me is dramatically higher than the 13 or so models I get out of a ASoIaF box set.
And I have a different idea of value. I’ve never bought any MCP minis, but plenty of CMON minis.
Frankly, your idea of value only makes sense for people who are already heavily invested in playing the game itself. For a new IP, without the benefit of popular lore or iconic character design, a new gamer would have no reason to pay so much. Until there’s an update established community, the game can’t afford to shock potential customers with sticker prices. Hook me with model design or fluff, and then maybe you can justify some higher prices. WMH is a dead game, whose prices were always too high. Starting a new edition with high prices, no community, and an untested product? That’s just ridiculous.
I don't need to be heavily invested in a game to care about the game value of the model. That's why I don't buy the Bones stuff. They have zero game value for me regardless of the PPM.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: And I have a different idea of value. I’ve never bought any MCP minis, but plenty of CMON minis.
the "value" is, what do I need to play the game, rather than what does the individual model cost
and the usual value of a force to play, outside the GW bubble, is 200-300€, 50-100€ for Skirmish games, so als long as the game is around those numbers it is ok
Again, that is only if you value the game over having a nice collection of minis. I’d rather buy the minis I want and play a miniature-agnostic game than pay through the nose for some popular game that spoils every few years for a new edition.
but this also depends on the army size, if you only need 5, those are more expensive than if you need 20 per unit and 5 units
Exactly why I'm never fond of PPM as a comparison. The value of a single MCP figure to me is dramatically higher than the 13 or so models I get out of a ASoIaF box set.
And I have a different idea of value. I’ve never bought any MCP minis, but plenty of CMON minis.
Frankly, your idea of value only makes sense for people who are already heavily invested in playing the game itself. For a new IP, without the benefit of popular lore or iconic character design, a new gamer would have no reason to pay so much. Until there’s an update established community, the game can’t afford to shock potential customers with sticker prices. Hook me with model design or fluff, and then maybe you can justify some higher prices. WMH is a dead game, whose prices were always too high. Starting a new edition with high prices, no community, and an untested product? That’s just ridiculous.
I don't need to be heavily invested in a game to care about the game value of the model. That's why I don't buy the Bones stuff. They have zero game value for me regardless of the PPM.
If you only care about the game value, then you are invested in the game. I only care about the minis value. I’ve probably got 39-59 restic WMH minis, and I’ve never played a game of WMH. The minis, and to some extent the setting, are valuable. The game itself only appeals to a small, insular crowd of people these days. The assumption that the game value will make a larger market of gamers buy these minis…seems doubtful.
So can somebody more familiar with the Mk3 publications confirm something - was there ever a "Forces of Warmachine: Mercenaries Command" book? I found one reference to it online and I'd like to make sure I have all the MK2 / MK3 stuff I want before it goes away for good. I guess I had better pick up the MK3 Prime hardback too since I only have the compact version from the two player starter..
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I was hoping for something more reasonable for an infantry dude. $17 for a named character is not great, but acceptable for the right miniature. $10 is fine for a well-sculpted resin schmo miniature that doesn’t look made out of micro-legos.
For these topographical map mofos, $5 is getting cheeky.
FWIW, if you assume out of the $200 box sets that $75 for the two jacks with all their arms plus the warcaster is the going rate, it comes to $125 for the remaining 19 figures $6.58 per schmo.
Okay, but I’m talking a la cart. If I’m forced to buy by squad, I’m looking for $2 or less per mini. $3 if the bits are useful. I won’t buy GW minis, and don’t find GW pricing acceptable for any other mini IP, possibly excepting Kingdom Death.
I suppose I’d be okay paying $7ish a mini for a royal sampler with one of each type, depending on the poses chosen.
I honestly cannot think of a game where you get 5 man squads for $10 at retail. Even like the cheap PVC stuff costs more than that.
Wargames atlantic, death fields range can net you a platoon of 24 guys for $30 from discount retailers. that can be used in multiple rule systems.
Siygess wrote: So can somebody more familiar with the Mk3 publications confirm something - was there ever a "Forces of Warmachine: Mercenaries Command" book? I found one reference to it online and I'd like to make sure I have all the MK2 / MK3 stuff I want before it goes away for good. I guess I had better pick up the MK3 Prime hardback too since I only have the compact version from the two player starter..
I do not believe there was ever one for Mercs or Minions. This list seems to confirm that:
Automatically Appended Next Post: Khador starter contents. Shocktroopers are concept art:
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post: Weird they duplicated the standard sculpt and nothing else. Particularly since we've seen a second standard bearer render
Are they jumping the timeline forward to some degree? All the firearms look much more advanced than the earlier edition stuff, and the Cygnar guys have railguns now.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Are they jumping the timeline forward to some degree? All the firearms look much more advanced than the earlier edition stuff, and the Cygnar guys have railguns now.
Yup. Things take place a decade or so after the Infernal apocalypse.
That's pretty cool. I'm eager to see the new stuff coming down the line, I'm liking the look of the Storm Legion and Khador has always been the faction that pulled my attention most, and the Shock Troops concepts look good.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Are they jumping the timeline forward to some degree? All the firearms look much more advanced than the earlier edition stuff, and the Cygnar guys have railguns now.
Khador starter contents. Shocktroopers are concept art:
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post: Weird they duplicated the standard sculpt and nothing else. Particularly since we've seen a second standard bearer render
The soldier pointing his gun next to the standard on the left seem to be duplicated on the right, with just a different head.
What's up with the faxmachine quality on that picture btw?
What's up with the faxmachine quality on that picture btw?
Not sure, I stole it off Facebook. The version in the article is a little clearer, but I suspect it was thrown together pretty quick since the solicitation was kind of confusing and this answers a lot of questions.
the "value" is, what do I need to play the game, rather than what does the individual model cost
and the usual value of a force to play, outside the GW bubble, is 200-300€, 50-100€ for Skirmish games, so als long as the game is around those numbers it is ok
That it's a very warped idea of value and one companies are very happy to see in players. Game size or point values are an abstract that the desiners decide arbitrarily, it shouldn't be a key factor in the price of physical product.
Do you think it's ok if the marketing department mails the designers with memos like "Make this new model 60pts instead of 40 so that we can sell it for 20$ instead of 15"? No, just no.
A model is a model is a model. I buy a model not it's point value that the company pull out of their hats and change at whim. If I need a unit of blunderbuss armed cossacks and one company sells them for 100$ a box but competition sells similar cossacks for 50$ a box I am not going to say the first company price is good because their cossacks cost more points per model in their game.
Ok, so you don't understand the difference between army and model (as it does not matter what the points of the individual are)
Than we need to go back to the basics
Producing a single plastic model costs the same no matter if you need 2 or 20 of them, but because you are just going to sell 1/10 of models if 2 is what people need, those 2 need to be more expensive to cover the cost
At the same time people expect to have 2 impressive and different looking models because there are only 2 and duplicates are a no-go
With R&F models, were you need 100, duplicates and less details are not a problem
But if you go the way of model pricing instead of army pricing, you end up with GW prices
Every model is as detailed as possible and you get 10 different in a 10 model box with the Skirmish tax added, but it is the players fault that you need more of them to play and an amy cost 800-1000€ instead of 200
A model is a model and always need to be the same no matter if it is a Hero you buy once or a Rank and File grunt were you need a 100 and you don't care what the army costs just individual model is important
GW says thanks for the money
And yet, if I am looking for, let's say, 5 undead cavalry or 10 ninja elves with bows, I compare prices and quality of what the market offers. I would have no problem with buying them from PP if they were competitive, but apparently other companies can and do produce these models much cheaper. Can't wait for companies to release mass games where you needs millions of models, their price per piece should be insane
The thing is, with reasonable prices (like the ones other game companies apparently can work on) you get more players willing to buy these armies, so even if everyone buys fewer there are just more buyers you can profit from.
That's what you get if your company strategy is "Let's test the market by releasing overpriced products that have exisiting substitutes of better quality and much lower prices" or "Let's test the market for how many suckers our playerbase has by releasing starter sets more expensive than any other company"
(Btw, boxes, like for example Blood Bowl teams or War Cry bands, or any other game/company starter sets, by your logic, should cost like 3 times more than they do, because they are complete "armies" in their systems...but guess what you get if they are priced reasonably? Customers!)
Souleater wrote: How should we account for the extra cost that the app, artwork, fiction writers, etc might add to the model costs?
By comparing prices per model with other companies that also have a game with an app and artwork etc.
For example A Song of Ice and Fire.
I mean, that's a horrible comparison. Those models are good enough to get the job done, but.... economical is a kind way of putting it.
To be fair for a rank and file wargame Song is pretty economical. Individual boxes are on the pricer side but you're 'only' looking at about £130-£170 to get a standard sized 40pt army.
you are not really comparing apples to apples though
I just looked at the US webstore for GW-the admech combat patrol box is
.10 basic infantry
.3 heavy infantry
.1 hero
.1vehicle
price-$150
For an additional $50 you get all the parts to build a complete army for WM/H MKIV
Additionally, you are also missing the fact that the 2 war jacks come with all the parts to make something like 64 combinations. also, the 2 new war jack kits for MKIV are effectively every variant of heavy war jack in the new edition. it would be like getting 2 leman russ kits with all the parts to build 2 of everything in the guard line.
Don't misunderstand when i make this comparison. i applaud the move to modular parts to reduce sku bloat and 3d printing for supply/shipping issues. i think far to much concern in this topic has been about model quality. as somebody with access to multiple people with 3d printers and loads of printed models and terrain running around our FLGS the media is not the problem. i care more about the beta rules and having seen video batreps of people play testing it.... it is trash, it takes away the game mechanics i enjoy about WM/H and the reason why our group will continue to play MKIII instead.
That’s the US - the British market doesn’t give a hoot what the combat patrol costs in America. In the UK by any reasonable comparison, the new warmachine army box is more expensive than GW.
That’s ignoring the quality of the models themselves. The comparison gets even worse if you do that!
Cyel wrote: And yet, if I am looking for, let's say, 5 undead cavalry or 10 ninja elves with bows, I compare prices and quality of what the market offers.
of course, and if you look for an army to play the game, comparing prices of individual models does not help
If you just want 5 models with an AK, you are looking for something different than if you want an "army" to play Infinity
hence if a 200€ Army Box from one company gets you a playable army, were the 200€ Army Box from another company does not because you need 2 of them, it does not matter if the individual model is less expensive as the overall money you need to spend to play the game is less
As I said, that's the kind of "logic" what companies love to see, because they can push higher prices on tge same product by having some people believe this philisophy.
And still some of them miraculously don't. Warcry starter or Asoiaf starters (or Blood bowl starter/ teams etc.) can have the " playable army" for at least 1/4 of the price of a WM starter and I found it honestly impossible to find a comparable starter product that offers so little for so much money. But hey, PP could have made the game size even smaller and sell the same models for 300$ a starter, yeah ?
Not to mention players who are also collectors and hobbyists (like myself) and who just get a fraction of the number of toys to convert and paint for the price.
tneva82 wrote: So pp makes army where single 28mm infantry model is whole legal army and charges 150 bucks it's fine?
Depends on how good the game behind it is. If that one model gets me dozen of games that are compelling enough to keep me playing with just that one model... good on them I guess. I'd be hard pressed to see such a design masterpiece, but if the game is really that good, then its worth supporting its development.
I hope you guys never look into Infintiy or MCP, the prices for individual models would crush you
and if the game works with single 28mm models and you never need to buy anything else, be it so
and I don't know why the collectors market need to be important for a company updating their game
PP is making a game and selling models to be used for it
this is not GW who sells collectors models and wrote a game so you can play with them if you want to
Made me spew my coffee.
I remembered PP prices to be high, but I didn't remember them to be literally higher than GW...
What the actual f?
It's especially stupid when you consider that the TT wargaming industry is a pretty special one, where the dominant player has inflated their prices so much that it created a massive gap anyone willing to offer reasonable price could easily fill.
PP is so out of touch it actually hurts.
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aphyon wrote: For an additional $50 you get all the parts to build a complete army for WM/H MKIV
Not really, unless you also concider a 500pt 40k army a "full army", at which point that combat partol could fit the bill too.
aphyon wrote: Additionally, you are also missing the fact that the 2 war jacks come with all the parts to make something like 64 combinations. also, the 2 new war jack kits for MKIV are effectively every variant of heavy war jack in the new edition. it would be like getting 2 leman russ kits with all the parts to build 2 of everything in the guard line.
I mean... yes you are right, but you seem to forget that GW kits are actually multipose and coem with a variety of different wargear too while the only one that have it are the jacks here.
I give enough gak to GW when they downgrade their stuff so simple monopose stuff so I'll do the same and point out that not only everything from PP is monopose, but it's also resin, which makes it basically impossible to convert in anyway.
aphyon wrote: Don't misunderstand when i make this comparison. i applaud the move to modular parts to reduce sku bloat and 3d printing for supply/shipping issues. i think far to much concern in this topic has been about model quality. as somebody with access to multiple people with 3d printers and loads of printed models and terrain running around our FLGS the media is not the problem. i care more about the beta rules and having seen video batreps of people play testing it.... it is trash, it takes away the game mechanics i enjoy about WM/H and the reason why our group will continue to play MKIII instead.
That I can agree with. PP got fooled into following GW in hits """"streamlining"""" effort (ie removing core strategical part of the game and then having to overbload your game in order to try to emulate what you just removed) by doing silly stuff like "de-emphasizing positioning"... It's just a bad idea.
Instead of trying to be a wargame they should have dialed back a bit the game into a proper skirmish game it was supposed to be, and make sure it has all the tactical depth it should.
kodos wrote: I hope you guys never look into Infintiy or MCP, the prices for individual models would crush you
and if the game works with single 28mm models and you never need to buy anything else, be it so
and I don't know why the collectors market need to be important for a company updating their game
PP is making a game and selling models to be used for it
this is not GW who sells collectors models and wrote a game so you can play with them if you want to
I’ve never played Infinity, but a glance at Weyland games tells me there’s a 2 player starter with 14 minis and other ancillary bits for under £100. You could buy a 3rd faction, have roughly the same number of models and be at a comparable price to a 1 player “starter” for warmachine.
A couple of friends can walk into the store, drop £50 each and get a game on. Asking them to drop £360 between them is an entirely different kettle of fish. Literally no other gaming company in the world asks a customer for that kind of buyin to play a game
UK side PP have often been on the expensive side. The reason they got away with it was because you needed fewer models. Thralls might need 2-3 boxes to make a full squad whilst the PP boxed set was one box and you're done.
That was, UK side, why PP was "cheaper". Same reason Infinity is cheaper than 40K. It wasn't the outright price alone it was that you just needed WAY fewer models to both get started and get an army.
Sure, but then they also had battle boxes of 2 jacks and a caster for like £30/35 quid. Pressgangers sold those by the truckload. That box, a box of infantry, say another £30 and a rule book and you were in the ballpark for a nice starting list to try the game. Not having a low cost starter is simply insane
MaxT wrote: Sure, but then they also had battle boxes of 2 jacks and a caster for like £30/35 quid. Pressgangers sold those by the truckload. That box, a box of infantry, say another £30 and a rule book and you were in the ballpark for a nice starting list to try the game. Not having a low cost starter is simply insane
I'd definitely love to see a lower cost starter, but I don't think Battle Boxes really do the job anymore. In Mk2 they were far ahead of the curve, but by Mk3 most games had better introductions. The main problem is that they were great for demos, but very little else. They didn't get you much game beyond that demo and most people running demos had models for new players to play with without purchase. PP desperately needed a more meaningful introduction to the game, but had at that point, lost all focus on anything beyond the tournament meta.
I'd love to see the GenCon battleboxes become an ongoing thing, because while being nominally similar to the old starters, they have significantly more game in them to work with for new players. That's, honestly, the most exciting thing for me about all these products, but I would definitely love to see a cheaper entry point for sure.
So it's $200 for a starterset for 1 player (and you still need to expand on that to reach the game's golden standard points cost, or is that covered?) and you get 24 models in it?
That doesn't seem like an interesting value preposition at all I'm afraid.
MaxT wrote: Sure, but then they also had battle boxes of 2 jacks and a caster for like £30/35 quid. Pressgangers sold those by the truckload. That box, a box of infantry, say another £30 and a rule book and you were in the ballpark for a nice starting list to try the game. Not having a low cost starter is simply insane
Yep and that's just the kind of box you need. I'd say you can go up to £50 in the UK market and be ok. You'll mostly lose out on those totally new to wargaming, but its still fairly comfortable. Hitting £100 or greater you are going to have a hard sell. Yes GW has done it with their own duel army sets, and with games like Adepticus Titanicus; but I'd wager the vast majority of those buying into those sets are already die-hard wargamers and likely already GW customers. They are well past the entry threshold. Plus games like AT have decades of marketing and cross marketing behind them.
Warmachine hasn't had any strong marketing in years (honestly since MK3 and the end of the PG system). My greatest worry with this is that PP will come up with a great MK4 rules and product setup and then trip at the finish line because they set such a high entry cost to keep their SKU down. Heck I'd wager even retail shops are cautious of such high priced gateway products. That's a lot of money to tie up in entry products.
Those £35 battleboxes are just the kind of thing they should be aiming for again. Heck with rules on app/online strip all the rules material out and just have models; but keep that nice sweet low entry cost to get people buying; then hit them with the £100 boxed sets
MaxT wrote: Sure, but then they also had battle boxes of 2 jacks and a caster for like £30/35 quid. Pressgangers sold those by the truckload. That box, a box of infantry, say another £30 and a rule book and you were in the ballpark for a nice starting list to try the game. Not having a low cost starter is simply insane
Quoted for truth.
I also think that level of the game (brawl Machine or MKI) is also a better experience at a lower entry point to what GW offered.
I wonder of PP will see the popularity of the limited release battlegroups they did at GenCon, and make them a permanent thing.
And my clubmate is on the same fence.
