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 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
but either way a dead game is dead.

Sales at the recent Gen Con far exceed the expectations of PP, so much so that they had to cut short the offer. It was scheduled to run until the 10th of August, they pulled it I think 1 day after launch.

Warmachine may have fallen from favour, and be a game that isn't seen a lot, but that doesn't mean it is dead.

Well you can skip your next haircut with how fast that went over your head

Nah mate, didn't go over my head at all. Come back when you have an actual counter argument.

Also, my wife likes my hair long, so no chance of a hair cut any time soon.

Anyway, back on topic.
It is a shame that the Gen Con Battlegroups were a limited release, as I think those would have been a much better 'try the game' entry level. The starter armies have a sizable price tag for people who are new to the game. $200 is a lot to ask for a game they may not enjoy. Hopefully PP do eventually make them a permanent purchase option.

I really loved the mechanics of the WM/H ruleset.
We only stopped playing, because they kind of ditched the european community.

Now I hope to see a revival of the universe and some cool new Legion of Everblight models (hopefully the old things will be at least of some use...)

Toofast wrote:

 Valander wrote:
It's almost like PP is taking the "wargaming is a luxury hobby" to an extreme level.

I never understood that. I collect sports cars and watches, which I would consider luxury hobbies. I don't see anything from a tabletop wargaming company that would compare. Last month my Porsche club did a group drive to a private airplane garage to tour the garage and explore inside some of the planes. They served champagne and charcuterie trays. A local jeweler was there with a table full of Rolexes and Hublots. That kind of experience is what a luxury hobby is about. What equivalent does tabletop wargaming have? A bunch of neckbeards with questionable hygiene and social skills gathered around tables in a convention hall, where anyone else with a couple hundred bucks and a bus ticket can also be? What is the equivalent of your car manufacturer flying you to the factory so the seat can be molded around your ass in tabletop wargaming? Where are the private events with champagne and hors d'oeuvres you've never even heard of like the ones hosted by dealerships and jewelers? Where are the group outings where they book out a Ritz Carlton for the weekend only for certain customers? "It's a luxury hobby" is just a line invented by suits to justify charging more for plastic toys and regurgitated by white knights defending the company. Nothing about tabletop wargaming evokes a sense of "luxury hobby"

You may want to check the definition of a "luxury good". In economics it's not what your subjective example shows. If definitions were so subjective they would be impossible to work with - for a billionaire who owns a small archipelago and eats human child's liver every day your Porsche and French sausage would hardly be luxury items after all.

Its good they had so many sales.

Is there more reviews or unboxing online?

 stonehorse wrote:


Anyway, back on topic.
It is a shame that the Gen Con Battlegroups were a limited release, as I think those would have been a much better 'try the game' entry level. The starter armies have a sizable price tag for people who are new to the game. $200 is a lot to ask for a game they may not enjoy. Hopefully PP do eventually make them a permanent purchase option.

Yes this is a part of feedback to the devs that needs to be made louder.

For PP it will mean one more SKU for each faction but PP dont attract the kind of whales that will shell out 200 USD exluding shipping+tax on a singleplayer entry point, atleast not in todays world where the everyday bills are getting out of controll. Allso the rules needs to be rebalanced for a new point treshold at 25p.

As for the gencon battlegroups it is good they are gone as they contained exactly the same caster and jacks you get in the 200 box so in the long run it is a pointless product and served more as a promo product. A Real 50-70 USD box needs to have a caster and jacks that are NOT inlcuded in the starter or expansion.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
As for the gencon battlegroups it is good they are gone as they contained exactly the same caster and jacks you get in the 200 box so in the long run it is a pointless product and served more as a promo product. A Real 50-70 USD box needs to have a caster and jacks that are NOT inlcuded in the starter or expansion.

No, the included warcaster is the one which will be available later as a separate release, and having multiple warjacks is a good idea anyway. The battlegroup isn't really going away either, it's just going to stop being a bundle. People will still be able to get a less than $200 cost of entry by buying the separate warcaster and jacks for around $100.

RE: The apparent sales success at Gencon - I wouldn't spin that as a positive. Yes, its great that they outsold expectations, unfortunately its also a demonstration that their production methodology isn't able to keep up with apparent demand for their product, as they specifically had to halt sales so that they could maintain their production timelines for other products in order to hit their release timeline for the new edition. Not exactly confidence inspiring, and I am not confident on their ability to scale up production efficiently or in a timely manner to meet the potential demand for future waves of products. If they are going to basically sell out production lots of their products every time they release them and have to wait months to be able to reprint them, then one can assume that their products will be constantly out of stock everywhere as they will be constantly behind demand, up until the point that demand collapses due to the lack of availability (basically the same thing that happened with FFGs short-lived Star Wars Destiny game which died on the vine because interested players could never find product available for sale due to initial small production lots, by the time FFG corrected and got the numbers in order, nobody was interested because they weren't reprinting the early sets so the product just sat there and didn't move).

 LunarSol wrote:

Voss wrote:

I don't know if its a misunderstanding of internet culture, or what. But players don't (and can't have) a collective consciousness that makes decisions.
The trappings and behaviors around a game largely come from the company that makes it. You don't get to pass off blame onto the players for having merely been present at the time.

If this were true than Brawlmachine would have never been a thing. To that point, neither would Steamroller. That was originally a fan packet that PP pulled in house. The flat terrain was largely driven by a small company making widgets and tools to support the game. You'll not find PP selling neoprene terrain after all. In each of these cases, players developed solutions to problems they were facing and the community latched on until it grew into something more. Players absolutely drive and impact the way the game is played. By the time PP makes anything official its usually already prolific not only at convention tournaments, but a good chunk of local events too.

Yep, 100%. "Players don't have collective consciousness" is an awful take, its called a "community" for a reason.

 McDougall Designs wrote:

 Cruentus wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
but either way a dead game is dead.

Sales at the recent Gen Con far exceed the expectations of PP, so much so that they had to cut short the offer. It was scheduled to run until the 10th of August, they pulled it I think 1 day after launch.
Warmachine may have fallen from favour, and be a game that isn't seen a lot, but that doesn't mean it is dead.

GW sells out of everything every time it launches anything, and that's met with "but they shortfall production", or "GW is dying, see!"
PP sells a handful, or who knows, 100 or 1000 units at the largest game convention in the US, and its "Winning!"
I agree with the other posters above, my Cryx continue to sit until the game gets to a point where its worth investing in, doesn't hinge on "git gud" to play, and the playerbase expands to where its worth spending the time doing. Everything up to that point is pure speculation and no evidence that the game is either dead, or a success... yet...

How do you expand the playerbase without playing games. I'm sure new and interested parties might want to see your Cryx, or game against you?

To be fair, Cryx are more or less a dead faction and will soon have their entire model range out of production, so its not like new players will be able to buy them or really care all that much about them.

Yeah, I'd love to see better starter products. I'd love to see the GenCon boxes be a standard thing, even at the raised price. They have dramatically more gameplay to them than prior Battleboxes, which previously facilitated little more than a demo game. Worse in Mk3, where I felt like players rarely used any of the contents outside of demo games.

Problem is that the GenCon boxes still come in below the "minimum" to play a legal game RaW. On top of that, if they made them a retail product then they would run into SKU management issues, as they will either need to remove the individual kits from sale or they will have the same minis available for sale under two different SKUs. Part of what they are trying to avoid is providing retailers with a product that nobody buys because it is undercut by the value of another retail product. Their relationship with retailers is already on shaky ground, so it wouldn't be a good move IMO. It would have been smart if they had designed the new edition a bit differently so they could offer a starter battlegroup for each faction (i.e. basically a cadre warcaster and warjacks) that came in the battlegroup box for ~$75 as a cheaper entry point to the game without stepping on their own toes.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

As for the gencon battlegroups it is good they are gone as they contained exactly the same caster and jacks you get in the 200 box so in the long run it is a pointless product and served more as a promo product. A Real 50-70 USD box needs to have a caster and jacks that are NOT inlcuded in the starter or expansion.

Nope. The gencon battlegroups contained warcaster C, whereas the $200 box contains warcaster A (and the $150 expansion box contains warcaster B). As for the jacks, yes they are the same jacks, but those are also the only two jacks that each army has access to and you will probably want 2-3 of each for maximum listbuilding flexibility. So not, not a pointless product, far from it - if you wanted to play any of the three armies available at gencon then the battlegroups were a fantastic entry point into the game while saving you a little bit of money and will make it that much cheaper for you to build out your mk4 army.

The lack of printing capacity doesn't surprise me. Like I said I'm going to take an educated and experienced the guess and say that they have one maybe two production farms in the US and one in each of the Pan Asia and Europe markets.

For them to sell out, and then especially to close down sale of the products due to outstripped demand, they must truly be months behind in printing. Which as you say, totally doesn't bode well. Especially when one failed print can shift that entire printing schedule back 4 to 6 hours.

This is exactly why my 3D print processing times are approximate. I don't want to take your money and then hold it hostage while awaiting a part or a backup printer to come in the mail.

Companies selling out is a good and bad thing


It's a good thing in that it shows that there's greater demand than anticipated production was geared up for. This means that the company can justify increased investing and spending IF the demand remains high over a prolonged period. You don't want to ramp up production based on a very short forecast of sales otherwise you can end up like the exercise bike firm in the UK that invested in a huge production upgrade only for the market to vanish after the novelty (and savings) from the first lockdowns were gone and people went back outside to cycle.


They are a bad thing because customers are left unable to buy. This leads to customers being likely to turn to other products to suite their needs and desires.


A huge amount really hinges not on the sales metrics of one sale event, but the sustained performance. Gencon sold out greatly, that's good as it means all of PP's investments were recouped. It's bad as it means customers were left unable to buy, but it might also be an enigma of sales. Next time around they might under sell and be left holding stock. PP really has to see the sustained performance over a period of time. If they see continual demand exceeding production they can justify investment; if they see it the other way around -a big surge at the start then things trickle off fast; then by not investing too early they save money in the long term and not leaving themselves with an inflated overhead for a market that didn't sustain sales at a high enough rate

Its difficult to say what are their targets as a company at this point.

Is this the initial steps to going back to the high volumes and faster casting methods or actually they are quite happy to do smaller and expensive runs that sell out... almost like limited edition box sets.

They might not even really know themselves; hence 3d printing as the middle row production method that lets them, in theory, go either way in the future.

 stonehorse wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
but either way a dead game is dead.

Sales at the recent Gen Con far exceed the expectations of PP, so much so that they had to cut short the offer. It was scheduled to run until the 10th of August, they pulled it I think 1 day after launch.

Warmachine may have fallen from favour, and be a game that isn't seen a lot, but that doesn't mean it is dead.

Well you can skip your next haircut with how fast that went over your head

Nah mate, didn't go over my head at all. Come back when you have an actual counter argument.

It definitely did, since you responded to a point I never made. Cut a tiny piece of my post out of context to try and fabricate it, even. There's no counter argument because you are arguing with an entirely fictional position no one in the thread has expressed.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Is there more reviews or unboxing online?

More will probably show up when the online orders ship sometime in the next month. The only people with the battlegroups currently are those who went to GenCon ...

... or those who know somebody who did My local ex-PressGanger was awesome and sold me his Orgoth box yesterday, since he just wanted to check out the magnets and resin quality. He was sufficiently impressed to order three more boxes online for demo purposes.

I'm almost done assembling, got the jacks magnetized and need to clean up extra arms and the warcaster. My review in a nutshell:
- The magnets are great, really nice sockets and keying to hold limbs in place and avoiding spinning and stuff. That said, I cut the keys off the Jackal's heads as they were keeping them from fitting flush.
- The resin is fine. I had some white IPA residue but really whatever, I'm not concerned that it will obscure paint. The resin they use is less brittle than the stuff I do, which is nice, but I had one weapon arrive broken (ironically the one I'll probably always use on the Jackal)
- Print layers aren't bad, especially as I'm going to hit them with black and then silver sprays. I could see somebody doing a thin white and then glazes having some issues with big round jack joints, however I'm not sure that will come up much. I haven't checked out the warcaster, and certainly the layer lines are going to mean more on infantry skin and such. I'll know more after priming.
- Clean up for me is MUCH faster than traditional minis, just knifing off sprue pegs really. There's some pockmarking from supports being removed, but again, I don't care on jacks. There are many ways to smooth these over for infantry and what not, and I'll take them over the endless gap filling I have to do with traditional resin minis (such as the Legion army I'm heavily stalled on because GSing all those gaps is my least favorite thing).

Here's some shots I took, I'll add more once I finish the crew: https://imgur.com/gallery/koc1q9k

Thanks for the review and pictures @Boss Salvage.

I agree that probably on Jacks or other mechanical heavy armoured surfaces that the print layer lines would be easier to fix in comparison with smaller miniatures, with loads of organic parts. Like trollbloods.

On the part that was broken do you find its easy to repair the plastic with just glue or does need pinning?

 NAVARRO wrote:
On the part that was broken do you find its easy to repair the plastic with just glue or does need pinning?

A nice thing about 3D prints is that if they break, the break is often quite shear, which I find very easy to glue as the fit is often perfect. I did think about pining the Jackal's club head back on, and I may give it a shot if it breaks again, but the little bit of pining I've done with my own prints hasn't always been the best, as the drill bit can fracture layers if it's done too hard or with the grain? This is just my experience, I've never heard of people pining 3D prints (probably because they're one piece or very light so the need isn't often there).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NAVARRO wrote:
Like trollbloods.

Yeaaaaa I wonder about big, smooth, heavy beasts. I'm in for Orgoth because they have pseudo-beasts of their own, so I guess I'll find out before the Hordes stuff drops next year, however what we've seen has been fairly textured AND won't be produced for a while yet, giving time for PP to continue to dial in their production capabilities.

I can see that base overhang is still en vogue

Cyel wrote:

You may want to check the definition of a "luxury good". In economics it's not what your subjective example shows. If definitions were so subjective they would be impossible to work with - for a billionaire who owns a small archipelago and eats human child's liver every day your Porsche and French sausage would hardly be luxury items after all.

I'm fully aware of the technical definition in economics, and I also don't think it applies to GW products. As income increases, demand for a luxury good increases proportionally more. This would be true of Porsche, Louis Vuitton, Rolex, etc. That's why you saw prices of used Porsches and Rolexes skyrocket over the past 2 years, people had a little bit more free money but those items had a HUGE increase in demand because they are the literal textbook definition of a luxury good. GW is only a "luxury good" in that it isn't a necessity, but I don't think that's what people have in mind when they think of "luxury goods".

Cyel wrote:
I can see that base overhang is still en vogue

The classic 'assing in' is less of a problem without arcs

Also I'll note that the 40mm base still has a slot in it. I get that PP ordered them in the millions but what an annoying thing we need to keep filling in when these 3D prints are never going to have tabs.

The standard melee range being 1" helps a lot too.

 Boss Salvage wrote:

Cyel wrote:
I can see that base overhang is still en vogue

The classic 'assing in' is less of a problem without arcs

Also I'll note that the 40mm base still has a slot in it. I get that PP ordered them in the millions but what an annoying thing we need to keep filling in when these 3D prints are never going to have tabs.

So... don't fill them in. If years and years of GW slottabases (model tabs were almost never the same length as the slots) taught me anything, is if you're going to base stuff anyway, just glue paper over top, glue the model on the base, add your basing material, and its a done deal. You'll never see the difference. PP metal models were the same way, and their blisters came with paper to cut and paste over the holes.

Toofast wrote:

Cyel wrote:

You may want to check the definition of a "luxury good". In economics it's not what your subjective example shows. If definitions were so subjective they would be impossible to work with - for a billionaire who owns a small archipelago and eats human child's liver every day your Porsche and French sausage would hardly be luxury items after all.

I'm fully aware of the technical definition in economics, and I also don't think it applies to GW products. As income increases, demand for a luxury good increases proportionally more. This would be true of Porsche, Louis Vuitton, Rolex, etc. That's why you saw prices of used Porsches and Rolexes skyrocket over the past 2 years, people had a little bit more free money but those items had a HUGE increase in demand because they are the literal textbook definition of a luxury good. GW is only a "luxury good" in that it isn't a necessity, but I don't think that's what people have in mind when they think of "luxury goods".

It depends on how you ask the question. The vast majority of people never even think of those brands because owning them is impossible. If you ask "what's a luxury item?" you'll get anything that people feel they want but either have to save up for or is something that's not really a necessity or frivolous spend. If you instead ask "Is a Rolex a Luxury good?" a lot of people will say yes but very few would ever offer that on the first question.

Voss wrote:
just glue paper over top

Do y'all really just glue paper on?? I've seen people use tape or something but never thought to straight up glue paper. I pack the slot with sprue and putty over it, then flock and etc.

But anyway my point was that it's a total relic that serves no purpose any longer, and barely did in the past.

Owning Louis Vuitton is impossible? I see tons of women in Medellin and Bogota with authentic ones, places where minimum wage is $4/hr. Why is that unattainable for the average American or European?

 Boss Salvage wrote:

Voss wrote:
just glue paper over top

Do y'all really just glue paper on?? I've seen people use tape or something but never thought to straight up glue paper. I pack the slot with sprue and putty over it, then flock and etc.

But anyway my point was that it's a total relic that serves no purpose any longer, and barely did in the past.

I have been gluing a piece of cut paper on top of PP bases for years. As the tabs on the minis got smaller and smaller, was easier to just glue paper on it and lightly press the tab through it when it is dry so that I don't have to try and fill in around the tab.

Packing the slot with sprue and putty takes so much more time and effort.

 Boss Salvage wrote:

Voss wrote:
just glue paper over top

Do y'all really just glue paper on?? I've seen people use tape or something but never thought to straight up glue paper. I pack the slot with sprue and putty over it, then flock and etc.

But anyway my point was that it's a total relic that serves no purpose any longer, and barely did in the past.

Yup I always just use a bit of rectangular paper superglued down. I don’t measure carefully either. The edges of the paper you never see once you add a texture paint, flock or whatever your basing go to is. Quick as hell

@Boss Salvage can you tell me more about the break and how it happened? As a clumsy brute who does all sorts of accidental smashing & dropping how brittle a material is becomes highly relevant

 lord marcus wrote:

Toofast wrote:
Owning Louis Vuitton is impossible? I see tons of women in Medellin and Bogota with authentic ones, places where minimum wage is $4/hr. Why is that unattainable for the average American or European?

Crushing socio-economic inequality, rampant feudalistic capitalism, cost of living at the highest its been in years. Wages Stagnant for several years. Minimum wage stagnant for at least a decade.

The fat cats gripe that we are not consuming enough, but they don't make enough capital available by raising wages for constant-growth capitalism to work.

Plus Louis Vuitton has a much, much, much cheaper line that they sell with their logo plastered all over it as a marketing thing as they really wanted in on that $300-$500 purse range that Coach and MK were owning. I have a wallet from them my sister bought me from Nordstroms and it was like $50. I don't consider that in any way luxurious.

NH Gunsmith wrote:Packing the slot with sprue and putty takes so much more time and effort.

Sure does

NinthMusketeer wrote:@Boss Salvage can you tell me more about the break and how it happened? As a clumsy brute who does all sorts of accidental smashing & dropping how brittle a material is becomes highly relevant

The Jackal's mace (the thing it's equipped with in my pic) came broken at the haft above the fist, tho I wouldn't call it the most delicate piece - the Jackal comes with a spear that has a very similar but much longer shaft. For a little context, the Tyrant's flail intentionally comes in 3 parts - arm/handle + chain + head - presumably to avoid similar disaster (and maybe to pose but I doubt it with how the chain is sculpted).

As much of a bummer as broken bits in a new kit are, the reminder that I'll need to secure these things for transport is well taken. Most likely I'll keep the magnetizing going and stick them to a steel sheet, particularly with how light the minis are.

 Boss Salvage wrote:

As much of a bummer as broken bits in a new kit are, the reminder that I'll need to secure these things for transport is well taken. Most likely I'll keep the magnetizing going and stick them to a steel sheet, particularly with how light the minis are.

I've been converting all my foam to plastic bins with magnets. The metal Warmachine models are a little too top heavy to do that, but I'm looking forward to transporting the new armies that way.

Cleaned up Horruskh at lunch:


I think the resin is quite good, but you can check out the layer lines for yourself in these big photos. The cape is particularly well printed, it's really just the top of the mini's armor where they stand out the most. Good chunky print overall.

No backpack cause I need to paint that back fur, no head because I'm considering headswapping all the non-trollkin Orgoth infantry

EDIT: You can also see by the neck slot that the non-magenetic joints are keyed as well. Same goes for the jack torsos and hips.