I'm vaguely interested in Cygnar. But not for that material and price point. If the models were plastics I'd probably be interested but paying that cost for printed resin figures feels....bad.
Also PP needs to realize they aren't who they used to be. Not now and maybe not ever. They aren't the automatic alternative to GW that you could find a game pretty much anywhere around the US. That's moved squarely over to the various star wars games. They have to consider themselves essentially a new market product with some minor name brand recognition. And market new product appropriately. Not like GW.
Those £35 battleboxes are just the kind of thing they should be aiming for again. Heck with rules on app/online strip all the rules material out and just have models; but keep that nice sweet low entry cost to get people buying; then hit them with the £100 boxed sets
Price definitely isn't everything though. Those £35 battleboxes sacrificed a lot in terms of gameplay and model quality to hit that price point. They really don't do the job of pulling in new players anymore in my experience. Once upon a time, yes, but so many games have greatly surpassed them with higher cost box sets that provide a better introduction to their game.
MaxT wrote: Sure, but then they also had battle boxes of 2 jacks and a caster for like £30/35 quid. Pressgangers sold those by the truckload. That box, a box of infantry, say another £30 and a rule book and you were in the ballpark for a nice starting list to try the game. Not having a low cost starter is simply insane
This essentially. Our gaming group got into Dystopian Wars because they follow this sales model:
Big flagship + 2 cruisers + 4 small frigate ships for about €45 to get some introduction games in... With a total cost for a complete standard force for about €150 (and you'd still have spare models to alter your list if you want). That's about right for an alternative game to the GW juggernaut.
Those £35 battleboxes are just the kind of thing they should be aiming for again. Heck with rules on app/online strip all the rules material out and just have models; but keep that nice sweet low entry cost to get people buying; then hit them with the £100 boxed sets
Price definitely isn't everything though. Those £35 battleboxes sacrificed a lot in terms of gameplay and model quality to hit that price point. They really don't do the job of pulling in new players anymore in my experience.
I must say I don't really get this criticism towards mk3 battleboxes model quality. Yeah, mk2 ones were pretty terrible with this rubbery plastic, but having worked with many starter models from mk3 I have maybe one complaint - Maddox, and that's probably because they decided to make her so terribly tiny. My Denny 2 metal model also seems to suffer from this "too tiny for her own good" syndrome with weird proportions and non-existant facial expression.
Other than that, jacks in the same kit were really good, the simplicity of design fitting for mass-produced workhorses. I also painted Malekus and enjoyed it, not worse in any way than his metal bros.
Last year I bought into trollkin and painting starter Ragnor and Fennblades was a real joy. Such characterful models, easy to work with but with enough detail, especially in the case of Ragnor. I am very hapy with the results! Does he really look that much worse than metal+resin Madrak? Where's this staggering difference in quality?
Honestly, I'd rather have these great models, than, say mk1 metal oldies (I got some second hand trollkin Champions, man, are they awful!!!) or even many of the new ones, like LoE Virtue stuff or the Bleargh! Archon. Those are ugly SoBs!
Yeah, maybe if you are a pro painter looking for a good model to paint for a top competition, those are not going to be your first picks. But otherwise, for gaming purposes, there's absolutely nothing wrong with them and you can have them look great and enjoy how cheap they are at the same time. These model-quality discussions are especially weird, considering how low standards so many of our players have when it comes to their armies, to the point that I start believing that for many of them (not you, LunarSol, but I have even specific examples from my local community in mind) it seems to be an excuse to give themselves for why they are overpaying so much.
-Well, I may have paid a lot for these mk4 models, but at least they are great sculpts and the material is of exceptional quality.
-Do you even paint your models?
-Hell, no! I barely have patience to glue some of the parts together. That's why I play with riderless horses and an empty base for a Colossal.
Elmir wrote: So it's $200 for a starterset for 1 player (and you still need to expand on that to reach the game's golden standard points cost, or is that covered?) and you get 24 models in it?
That doesn't seem like an interesting value preposition at all I'm afraid.
And that's before realizing that afawk it doesn't come with any paper (rule book, scenario, terrain map, cards, etc etc).
It's just 24 models, and it probably won't even have inserts in thos empty box to make them useful to store the minies.
tneva82 wrote: So pp makes army where single 28mm infantry model is whole legal army and charges 150 bucks it's fine?
Depends on how good the game behind it is. If that one model gets me dozen of games that are compelling enough to keep me playing with just that one model... good on them I guess. I'd be hard pressed to see such a design masterpiece, but if the game is really that good, then its worth supporting its development.
And how will people who aren’t already neck deep going to know the game is worth the ridiculous price before buying? Why would anyone but the crunchiest beard ever take the risk?
Sounds like these kinds of games are severely limiting their market to a very specific subset of wargamers who consider the game the only real determinate of value. No wonder they don’t feel compelled to put out good quality miniatures.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kodos wrote: I hope you guys never look into Infintiy or MCP, the prices for individual models would crush you
and if the game works with single 28mm models and you never need to buy anything else, be it so
and I don't know why the collectors market need to be important for a company updating their game
PP is making a game and selling models to be used for it
this is not GW who sells collectors models and wrote a game so you can play with them if you want to
1. I definitely don’t buy Infinity or MCP.
2. WMH has a really small community of active players. Their pool of burnt former-players is pretty big, and pretty bitter judging by the Mk3 threads.
3. There are lots and lots of games that are affordable rule sets and miniature agnostic that allow a player freedom in what they buy, assemble and paint. Pretending the PP method is the only or best method is short sighted, living in the past.
4. Do you believe most gamers start new games because they saw the rulebook and were impressed by the mechanics? Or because they saw the miniatures?
kodos wrote: I hope you guys never look into Infintiy or MCP, the prices for individual models would crush you
and if the game works with single 28mm models and you never need to buy anything else, be it so
and I don't know why the collectors market need to be important for a company updating their game
PP is making a game and selling models to be used for it
this is not GW who sells collectors models and wrote a game so you can play with them if you want to
Individual model prices are not the issue though.
I have no problem spending $20-30 for a single MCP model now.
The reason being is that my son and I can try out the game for $100.
That gets us some terrain and two decent lists to play each other against.
Model numbers are not a factor in this at all - the overall starter box price is however.
For $120CAD we get all the tools needed to play a bunch of games to see if we like it.
By the same token, PP is charging almost 5 times that for us to start at all.
So what if a character for MCP costs my up to $50? The fact is, I can choose to spend that later.
And in increments. It’s the initial buy in sticker shock for two players that’s the issue.
Now don’t even get me started on the 3 month old alpha…uh I mean Beta rules for WM….
Fact is, they are charging too much to get into it, and as a result, I just won’t.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Do you believe most gamers start new games because they saw the rulebook and were impressed by the mechanics? Or because they saw the miniatures?
this is easy, people play GW games for the models, and everything else for the mechanics
no one here started Warmachine because he liked the models more than GW models, people started it because they wanted an actual game to play
same with Infinity, Kings of War, Deadzone, SAGA etc. none of those are played because they models are so great and cheap that people don't care if the game is trash or not
and SAGA is a good example as the official Starter Set models are expensive and suck compared to others and people still buy it because it is the easiest way to start and play the game
WMH has a really small community of active players. Their pool of burnt former-players is pretty big, and pretty bitter judging by the Mk3 threads.
which is another reason for higher prices, your are expecting lower sales because of the smaller community (same way Space Marine Heroes are more expensive than line infantry)
There are lots and lots of games that are affordable rule sets and miniature agnostic
every single game were the rules do not come together with the models is miniature agnostic (because in this case you need to buy the models to get the rules and using something else would mean you buy doubles), this is also the reason why no one here plays a game because of the models, as you can use whatever you want with any rules you want
I must play this game because it has the models I like is a GW attitude, that people think applies to everything
Individual model prices are not the issue though.
I have no problem spending $20-30 for a single MCP model now.
The reason being is that my son and I can try out the game for $100.
but this is the main argument here, that total cost for a game are irrelevant and only the single model prices are important
that you can play MCP for 100 does not matter, a single model is the same price as a full unit from GW so the game is too expensive and you are failing for corporate propaganda to pay such high single model prices
so a WM/H Army for 200 is to expensive because the GW Box for 150 gets you more models, the fact that you need 2 boxes from GW to have an army does not matter just the model price
Fact is, they are charging too much to get into it, and as a result, I just won’t.
this is something very different, missing cheap intro sets is a problem and I hope they correct it later
though I can understand why they are not done first, as the current product is targeted at existing and new players who want to go all in and play, while old players who want to try it will do it with their existing collection anyway and I guess PP thinks there are not many new players who want to try it to make small starters worth it in the beginning
PP are apparently going to come to the WTC and stream it. I wonder what they will say, seeing how many players from outside of US use alternative models in their armies and if they will have the guts to ask why
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kodos wrote: but this is the main argument here, that total cost for a game are irrelevant and only the single model prices are important
that you can play MCP for 100 does not matter, a single model is the same price as a full unit from GW so the game is too expensive and you are failing for corporate propaganda to pay such high single model prices
so a WM/H Army for 200 is to expensive because the GW Box for 150 gets you more models, the fact that you need 2 boxes from GW to have an army does not matter just the model price
Please note how kodos conveniently forgets the examples of Warcry or Blood Bowl or ASOIAF starters (or Bolt Action or Kings of War or most, really), which show that, even if we fallaciously assume the "cost per army" approach holds any water, the claim that mk4 starters are well priced still falls flat on its face. Apparently it doesn't even have any accessories inside like dice or effect tokens (correct me if I'm wrong)
Whether it's price per model or price per army PP products are badly overpriced, compared to the competition (maybe unless you start comparing tiny WM armies to dozens models strong armies from mass combat systems... maybe). I know that many people need self-justification for their decisions (lest cognitive dissonance kills them ), but maths is kind of obvious in this case.
There’s also a difference between these sets and GW’s starters.
GW starters contain two distinct forces. Yes box for box the GW ones are still more expensive. But, they do not require prospective long term opponents to buy-in to find out if they enjoy the game. Because every set is intended for two persons to get gaming.
Now if you’ve already got buddies wanting to try MkIV? It’s all good. But. If they want to try it before they drop money on it? You could be stuck in the bind where you’ve sunk a not insignificant amount of money, and have no-one to play against.
Honestly of the GW duel army sets I wonder how many are people starting with a friend and how many are simply people who are already in the GW ecosystem simply swapping models and trading with friends also already in the hobby
Because I'd wager they are not beginner/entry products save when someone is already buying and looking to move to a new army.
GW instead relies on battleforces, vanguard, killteam, warcry, underworld etc... for their gateway
PP might well be hoping that their new sets are going to attract old customers back. So they aren't worried about new blood so much as old blood coming back. Which is a fair way to approach things; but its a risk because of how long they've been away and because not having newblood options is a poor move for long term growth.
Please note how kodos conveniently forgets the examples of Warcry or Blood Bowl or ASOIAF starters (or Bolt Action or Kings of War or most, really), which show that, even if we fallaciously assume the "cost per army" approach holds any water, the claim that mk4 starters are well priced still falls flat on its face. Apparently it doesn't even have any accessories inside like dice or effect tokens (correct me if I'm wrong)
Kings of War is a good point as well, for a playable Army, you need the Army Set+Mega Army Set, which is 230€
of course you get more models for that price, but those are R&F models, which people always complain that those are not as detailed as Skirmish models and look bad outside R&F units, so are not worth the price
but with 200€ VS 230€, WM is cheaper
a Bolt Action Starter Army is 140€, though it is a historical game and there and WG needs to compete with Perry and Rubicon, and here you have the problem that you can get a BA Army from 3rd parties if you buy individual models, for less than the starter Army though you don't get the themes WG sells (so if you want a Charkiw WG is the only option)
so in this case, Bolt Action Starter Army are the same as a Warmachine Starter Army, overpriced compared to similar models from other companies, but you get a specific theme for their game
ASOIAF, one of the few games around that is not model agnostic, so you don't have a cheaper alternatives, an Army is around 150-200€
Whether it's price per model or price per army PP products are badly overpriced, compared to the competition
but you name as competition GW, and as long a 40k Army is 600-800€, Warmachine will ne the cheap budget option with 200-300€ per Army
they might be overprice compared to Skirmish Games, but those are on a different level anyway, and no one complains that 40k is overpriced because a Blood Bowl Team just costs 60€ compared to 600€
throwing in Boardgames and small Skirmish Games to make the argument work is not the best idea
The new Warmachine stuff is not cheap, but overpriced compared to the competition does not work out
the "normal" price for a Wargaming Army is sets around 200€, does not matter if it is historical or a unique IP
skirmish games are cheaper but often needs more terrain so the additional cost go there, hence we look at Necromunda with 200€ boxes
there are some cheaper ones around, usually either a mix of Boardgame/Wargame with a low model count, or historicals were you can use cheap R&F infantry to play (no reason to buy the super detailed and expensive skirmish models if a box of 60 R&F infantry costs the same)
and of course the big games like 40k and AoS which are much more expensive than everyone else, which is funny as single Infinity model is more expensive than the GW standard infantry, but yet it is seen as a cheaper alternative don't know why
What are you supposed to do with the models you already have, bin them?
PP is really not doing themselves favors. I think that they are becoming victims of their own Page 5 propaganda, considering what they are trying to do here.
As to Infinity, you can't compare these two games on the price point of the models, nor on game play.
They are not even in the same league.
Overread wrote: Honestly of the GW duel army sets I wonder how many are people starting with a friend and how many are simply people who are already in the GW ecosystem simply swapping models and trading with friends also already in the hobby
Because I'd wager they are not beginner/entry products save when someone is already buying and looking to move to a new army.
GW instead relies on battleforces, vanguard, killteam, warcry, underworld etc... for their gateway
PP might well be hoping that their new sets are going to attract old customers back. So they aren't worried about new blood so much as old blood coming back. Which is a fair way to approach things; but its a risk because of how long they've been away and because not having newblood options is a poor move for long term growth.
The duel sets yeah, probably folk going halfsies or swapsies. But the Core Starter Sets (Indomitus type for clarity) are proper Intro Sets. Good variety of models and unit types, and pretty generously so despite the price tag.
Either use them as counts-as or as straight models on the table as some are being ported over. Others will be "this is new but it looks pretty much the same as old thing"
Same thing that Dystopian Wars players or GW players do. If its old and looks close enough its generally fine.
Grot 6 wrote: What are you supposed to do with the models you already have, bin them?
the local group is going to proxy the new stuff we the old models, at least for now
here WM/H never declined and we have a similar sized larger group since MkI, so they just switch to the new rules keep playing
As to Infinity, you can't compare these two games on the price point of the models, nor on game play.
They are not even in the same league.
of course you can't hence why the simple per model price from one game, without the context of game behind it makes not much sense, outside of those that only collect and paint but never play
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Do you believe most gamers start new games because they saw the rulebook and were impressed by the mechanics? Or because they saw the miniatures?
this is easy, people play GW games for the models, and everything else for the mechanics
no one here started Warmachine because he liked the models more than GW models, people started it because they wanted an actual game to play
same with Infinity, Kings of War, Deadzone, SAGA etc. none of those are played because they models are so great and cheap that people don't care if the game is trash or not
and SAGA is a good example as the official Starter Set models are expensive and suck compared to others and people still buy it because it is the easiest way to start and play the game
WMH has a really small community of active players. Their pool of burnt former-players is pretty big, and pretty bitter judging by the Mk3 threads.
which is another reason for higher prices, your are expecting lower sales because of the smaller community (same way Space Marine Heroes are more expensive than line infantry)
There are lots and lots of games that are affordable rule sets and miniature agnostic
every single game were the rules do not come together with the models is miniature agnostic (because in this case you need to buy the models to get the rules and using something else would mean you buy doubles), this is also the reason why no one here plays a game because of the models, as you can use whatever you want with any rules you want
I must play this game because it has the models I like is a GW attitude, that people think applies to everything
Individual model prices are not the issue though.
I have no problem spending $20-30 for a single MCP model now.
The reason being is that my son and I can try out the game for $100.
but this is the main argument here, that total cost for a game are irrelevant and only the single model prices are important
that you can play MCP for 100 does not matter, a single model is the same price as a full unit from GW so the game is too expensive and you are failing for corporate propaganda to pay such high single model prices
so a WM/H Army for 200 is to expensive because the GW Box for 150 gets you more models, the fact that you need 2 boxes from GW to have an army does not matter just the model price
Fact is, they are charging too much to get into it, and as a result, I just won’t.
this is something very different, missing cheap intro sets is a problem and I hope they correct it later
though I can understand why they are not done first, as the current product is targeted at existing and new players who want to go all in and play, while old players who want to try it will do it with their existing collection anyway and I guess PP thinks there are not many new players who want to try it to make small starters worth it in the beginning
The point I’m trying to make here is that I’m not falling for corporate propaganda.
I think if you’re willing to spend that much money for a WM starter for a SINGLE PLAYER, then perhaps you’re the one falling for the marketing propaganda. And it’s crappy propaganda at that.
Understand my point - for my son and I to start WM….again…..I need to invest $560CAD for two starters.
We don’t need full armies to start, and anyone who does, is an established wargamer who has no issues spending $600 on two starter boxes, or even a single army. But I don’t NEED two ARMIES TO START.
I need a good introductory box for two of us to try out, as kids can be fickle and their tastes can change quickly. That kind of initial investment is a lot for two of us to play something.
Now if I’m falling for the propaganda as you so succinctly state, then why am I just not willing to spend over 5x what it costs for any other companies TWO PLAYER starter boxes?
I’m looking to get into this with two people, not just myself, except I have to foot the entire bill.
And PPs starters are just models. No books. No tokens. No terrain. Nothing but a few models.
Compare that to literally anything else out there (and one can argue comparisons aren’t valid all they want) and if you start thinking like a parent who wants to pay stuff with their kid, you might have an inkling of what I’m trying to argue here.
I can try out at least three or four different games and systems for the same price PP is asking.
Why would I do that? I’m already invested in WM and have tons of models. That are now largely useless until sometime around 2024.
If I want to get myself and kid into it, PP is asking a massive premium and commitment right off the hop.
As a parent who just wants to play some games with his kid, that price is absolutely bonkers.
if you just want to try things with your son, why the hell are you buying any models at all?
and specially if you already have a large collection
you already have everything you need at home to play with your son and don't need to buy anything to play, get the new rules and proxy, or play MkII or MkIII
you want to play a game and want to test different ones to know what you like and what not
you get the free rules, some tokens/bases and play the game
and don't need to buy a starter box to test things, you buy the starter box if you already know that this is your game and you want to play it
If I want to get myself and kid into it, PP is asking a massive premium and commitment right off the hop.
as is Games Workshop (though they want more)
honestly, for gaming with kids I would (and do) only use Mantic Rules/Games and some historicals (SAGA), everything else is not good, either because the rules are not easy to learn/remember (aka not kids friendly) or way to expensive to drop 2 forces in
if you want small Skirmish Game to play with your son, Deadzone or Vanguard would be my suggestions
and for a Mass Skirmish, SAGA Age of Magic (no free rules, but the books are not expensive either)
and you can use your Warmachine models for those as well
and generally people "test" things before they buy something
and generally people don't care if companies say you are allowed official models only, if they play at home
funny that
kodos wrote: and generally people "test" things before they buy something
and generally people don't care if companies say you are allowed official models only, if they play at home
funny that
You really think this attitude is going to convince Ghool? The guy clearly wants to play the game with the miniatures the game was intended for. This is a relaunch product we're talking about here, people in Ghool's position are exactly the sort of folks PP should be making mk4 accessible to. Telling him 'sod off, just proxy with what you have' is really missing the point.
While the option to use proxies is always a thing for pretty much any game, it doesn't address the question of "impulse buys" in the LGS.
Not everyone does a bunch of internet research to go find out hey, the rules for X are free, we can download them and try it out with markers to see if we want to buy in. Sure, it's a completely reasonable thing to do. But, there are still folks out there who might bounce into an LGS and just look at all the goodies. This is where the current plan for PP "starters" I think is going to really fail to bring in anyone new. As others have pointed out, someone might see the box and think "hey, that looks kinda cool," then see the price tag for ONE army, realize they're gonna need two of those, and also then realize they're gonna have to go get an app for the rules and unit stats, and then look at another option that is a 2 player starter with rules and so on for half the price, and very possibly decide on going that route instead.
How much of the sales are like that? I have no data, but it isn't zero. PP's whole current starter sets definitely seem geared towards those who already know they're going "all in," and that market is significantly smaller, mostly going to be their current hardcore fans (though sounds like they may be losing some of those).
Veteran gamers are a little more likely to be ok with the idea of "grab the rules, try it out using some various models I already have," whether it's a new system or edition. Newer gamers don't always know that's realistically even an option, and the pressure to buy the models made for the game is definitely there.
Besides that, the attitude of “hur dur just proxy” brings in precisely zero revenue for PP. If PP doesn’t sell these new models, the game is a bust. Simple as that. And shutting off any revenue from peeps walking into an LGS looking for something new to try due to a crazy high initial buyin doesn’t help in the least.
The problem with the hard-reset PP are doing is they are rolling it out slowly so a lot of Vets who are currently players are going to feel a bit sour for a while.
Everyone knows it needs some big changes, but at the same time its a hard pill. Esp for any Hordes players who are left out for even longer.
Giving that large segment of existing players the only option of high priced sets to get back into the game fully, is risky.
I think that's the ultimate issue. We can certainly see the value of high priced sets. The issue is they rely on a very specific type of customer and are more niche than broad appeal and I think we all want to see PP going for broad appeal to help them and us get more people involved.
With the number of gaming stores that willl have been burned by the crash in popularity of warmachine & hordes PP may well be expecting not to have very much trade from gamestores initially as they'll want to see sales happening (and sales with the chance of a decent profit)
so introducing a lower cost way in may happen in a year or two assuming the re-launch goes OK (and the games proves to be at least playable) and PP has demonstrated they can sell enough of the expensive sets to suggest stocking these lower cost and so lower profit starters
Grot 6 wrote: I think that they are becoming victims of their own Page 5 propaganda
That boat long sailed. A lot of PPs player retention issues, as well as a lot of their recruitment issues, are directly the result of Page 5 "propaganda" making vets think that playing "like you got a pair" means that you ROFLStomp newbies into the ground when they first start out to teach them how to play through the school of hard knocks. Predictably, people who play a dozen games and never get to make it beyond turn 2 because they don't know all the possible tricks that can be used to nail them tend to develop a negative outlook on the game and don't want to continue playing. That and the ultra-competitive mindset that was resultantly instilled into the community made competitive format play the norm for casual play, to the point that in many cases players needed to show up to play their first games with full size steamroller-standard armies - opportunities to learn at small points values were rare for many.
The problem with the hard-reset PP are doing is they are rolling it out slowly so a lot of Vets who are currently players are going to feel a bit sour for a while.
I am firmly of the belief that this is 100% intentional. The existing community for the game is probably Privateer Press's biggest problem in terms of the success of being able to relaunch the game, alienating them in order to create room for new blood to comee in and experience the game in a more approachable way is 100% desirable. Those vets not being able to continue poisoning the well on day 1 can only be a good thing for the health of the game at large - if PP has 100 veteran players, and 80-90 of them sit out the first few months of the new edition and 50 new players come in, the 10-20 vets are going to have a harder time setting the "tone and standard" for the community and the 50 new players are going to establish the new direction for things. The remaining 80-90 players may largely trickle back in over time, but if over the same time period another 200-300 new players join (which is ultimately the goal) because the game and community is more approachable and friendly, then the vets will become the minority and no longer "control the narrative" as it were for the way they think the game should be played.
kodos wrote: if you just want to try things with your son, why the hell are you buying any models at all?
and specially if you already have a large collection
you already have everything you need at home to play with your son and don't need to buy anything to play, get the new rules and proxy, or play MkII or MkIII
you want to play a game and want to test different ones to know what you like and what not
you get the free rules, some tokens/bases and play the game
and don't need to buy a starter box to test things, you buy the starter box if you already know that this is your game and you want to play it
If I want to get myself and kid into it, PP is asking a massive premium and commitment right off the hop.
as is Games Workshop (though they want more)
honestly, for gaming with kids I would (and do) only use Mantic Rules/Games and some historicals (SAGA), everything else is not good, either because the rules are not easy to learn/remember (aka not kids friendly) or way to expensive to drop 2 forces in
if you want small Skirmish Game to play with your son, Deadzone or Vanguard would be my suggestions
and for a Mass Skirmish, SAGA Age of Magic (no free rules, but the books are not expensive either)
and you can use your Warmachine models for those as well
Clearly you have never walked into an LGS with a 12 year old.
‘Hey dad that looks super cool! Can we get it and try it out?’
‘Sure son, but we won’t buy those models. We will download everything for free, and test it at home!’
Go ahead and see what that kids face looks like when you tell them that. And then see if they actually want to get into it afterwards….
It’s also the reason why we play MCP - recognizable characters he knows and loves from the movies and comics. If we wanted to play with what I have, and we do, then I want to appeal to what my kid find aesthetically pleasing, which is not everything I already have. And go ahead an plop a whole army in front of a 12 year old and ask them to assemble and paint the stuff. Most times they’ll just be overwhelmed and walk away due there being a whole army to paint and learn instead of a single model or three.
Kids are fickle man, and it’s not at all about rules. We’ve been gaming together for years. It’s all about how the models look to a kid. This is the most important bit - the kid wants his stuff to look like what he likes, and not what I like. My collection is what I like and not him. If I really want him to get into wargaming, am I going to buy and play with stuff he doesn’t really like? Or if I want him to get into painting, am I going to force him to paint stuff that doesn’t appeal to his tastes?
And when said models are super pricey (and yes so is MCP, but I can buy one or two models and be good for a few months) and only come in $200 starters, and $175 expansions, it’s not worth it to get into.
Spreading out the purchases and being to able to get some models that my son enjoys is how I can get him into the more hardcore aspects of wargaming.
This seems to be lost on quite a few folks in this thread.
Kids like stuff to look cool. That’s why the rules being free doesn’t matter.
I mean - thats how I got into wargames as a 12-13 year old. Granted, it was pitched to me less as "see if you like the rules of the game" and more "see which faction you like the rules of and want to collect and play". MCP is easy because (AFAIK) theres no real restriction on which models can work together, but in a game like 40k or Warmachine thats not really true, so he might like the looks of models from several factions... but he can only pick one (unless of course you got deep pockets and are willing to feed a habit). Your 12 year old has more critical logic/reasoning skills and patience than you give them credit for, I am sure if you pitched it as a case of "you will get minis, but first lets play 2-3 games to figure out which minis it is you want", I can't imagine them not being all over that like white on rice.
Its all how you present the sales pitch my friend.
chaos0xomega wrote: I mean - thats how I got into wargames as a 12-13 year old. Granted, it was pitched to me less as "see if you like the rules of the game" and more "see which faction you like the rules of and want to collect and play". MCP is easy because (AFAIK) theres no real restriction on which models can work together, but in a game like 40k or Warmachine thats not really true, so he might like the looks of models from several factions... but he can only pick one (unless of course you got deep pockets and are willing to feed a habit). Your 12 year old has more critical logic/reasoning skills and patience than you give them credit for, I am sure if you pitched it as a case of "you will get minis, but first lets play 2-3 games to figure out which minis it is you want", I can't imagine them not being all over that like white on rice.
Its all how you present the sales pitch my friend.
The problem is not the look of single factions.
The problem is the start up cost for the two of us.
It has nothing to do with the sales pitch and he’ll play just about any game out there.
The start up cost for two of us is what I have an issue with.
$560 is a ton of money to spend on a game for us to start.
You don’t think that’s a lot of money for two players to start?
Seriously. Even GW doesn’t charge that much.
We got into Underworlds for $150 and have four warbands that we can play and painted up. It’s only 3-7 models each, which is easy for a young kid to build and paint.
We don’t need to go farther than that and can still play each other and have some variety.
How does $560 for two factions compute? I can get a Warcry starter for $230. Half the price. Kill team is the same. Even if we wanted to start 40k it’s half the price PP is asking. Literally any other game out there does not cost as much as PP is asking TO START.
We don’t even want full armies. We just need a decent starter set to play, with the possibility of expanding. We don’t NEED full armies, and to say that anyone first starting out needs a full army with options is a fallacy that PP is expecting everyone to buy into. A cheaper starter is all I’m asking for and I’m being railed against for it?
I find it weird that I have to argue the point.
Anyways, I’m done here. I guess we won’t be playing until there’s a cheaper option. Though maybe not.
MaxT wrote: Besides that, the attitude of “hur dur just proxy” brings in precisely zero revenue for PP. If PP doesn’t sell these new models, the game is a bust. Simple as that. And shutting off any revenue from peeps walking into an LGS looking for something new to try due to a crazy high initial buyin doesn’t help in the least.
playing the game has always some revenue for the company
buying the models but never play the game makes money it first but does not create a community or "word of mouth" about the game and if it is worth playing
while only buying the rules and active playing the game, gives less money but creates more revenue over time because it helps building a community
as for a game to sell, it needs people playing it simply because if people think no one in the area plays is or they don't know if any people who like it, they won't buy it at all
so having people "proxy" with their existing collection still helps as those are still PP models
Ghool wrote: Clearly you have never walked into an LGS with a 12 year old.
‘Hey dad that looks super cool! Can we get it and try it out?’
‘Sure son, but we won’t buy those models. We will download everything for free, and test it at home!’
well, my 10 year old started to play Kings of War 2 months ago
we played Deadzone, Warmachine, KoW, X-Wing, Armada and some others at home for a while (started out with X-Wing because he likes Star Wars, was the only game I bought before we played it, the others we did with the stuff I already had at home), and than he settled on Kings of War as he liked it the most, we walked into the FLGS that stocked Mantic and he decided on an Army (and yes we bought the full Army for him)
and one of the reason we took KoW was that we are more flexible in models and he liked that he can build his own ones if he want to
(and we are also going to use my Warmachine models for KoW instead of doing MkIV, as he likes the style of models, but KoW as a game)
if you just want to play the game, and you already have a full collection at home, no need to buy the new stuff on release or switch to MkIV until they old models have rules, specially if it is too expensive for your liking
and if you are with your son at the store and he says he wants to new models, make it a birthday or christmas gift, or just buy the one model and use it together with the old models and rules until you get int
This thread had me looking at the launch article from PP about MKIV. Those $200 startersets (25ish models) are just for small game 50p lists with expansion sets to bump that up to 75p being aimed at around $175 (with only 15 models mentioned)!
And then you'd still have to get a few extra things to turn it into a standard 100p list? That's steep for that small number of 3D printed models.
kodos wrote: and generally people "test" things before they buy something
and generally people don't care if companies say you are allowed official models only, if they play at home
funny that
And that doesn't get full experience anvway so not applicaple.
Why don't people just play bases with name? If you don'w care about miniatures total result then. Yet people want miniatures for miniature game. Funno that
tneva82 wrote: Why don't people just play bases with name? If you don'w care about miniatures total result then. Yet people want miniatures for miniature game. Funno that
there are a lot of people who play bases with names or printed cards, specially with grand tactical games
yet, people buying miniatures from a unique IP just to play a test game to know if they like a game or not, this must be unique to your local scene
the thing I usually see is either people borrow an army, the club offering armies, or they just go with blanks, I have even seen people going with Lego for a test game, but I have never encountered someone who buys minis without having played a demo game first
but if of course, if you want the full experience for your first Demo game, it is getting expensive, though WM/H is than still cheaper to get into than 40k or AoS, funny
It is fairly common in the US for people to "buy first to try out" rather than proxying everything for an initial test to see if they want to go in or not. This may well be a bit of a regional thing (e.g., some places, countries, etc.) depending on how hard it is to get the stuff in the first place. If you know you're going to have to online order, then yeah, the proxy test first is probably more common. But it is not unusual for people in some areas to go to the shop, see something cool, and decide to give it a try--that is, buy it.
We can argue in circles all day as to whether you should try games out using proxies with downloadable rules, but that does not address the still very real question of "entry level price point." IMO, PP's new starters are very much on the high side, and of questionable value to some (no rulebooks, cards, dice, etc.), and this could be a barrier to it picking up for many areas. In particular, that "impulse buy to give it a shot" I think will be less common with that price point. Yes, GW starters are also expensive, but there are smaller ways to get in and even the big box 2 player starters have enough for 2 folks to try it out, and GW has a much bigger "brand recognition."
It's important to remember that every person enters into and does their minis gaming hobbies differently. Just because one person always proxies to try out new games does not mean that everyone does. What works for you may not be the way other people approach it, and likewise, how other people check things out may not be how you would do it. Stop the fekking gatekeeping already.
One reason I started WArhammer 40k is because the starter set was cheap. Yes, 40k cheap. Yes, there was the big box Dark Imperium that was very expensive, but GW also had a cheaper alternative - Know know fear - a 2p starter set that gave you 31 miniatures and everything you need to start playing. Cheaper than a boardgame, more minis, the minis looked cool. That was enough for me. But if the only option was the big, expensive box, then my adventure into miniature games might have never started.
So yeah, if the only starter set for MK4 is the very expensive box, that's troublesome. Esp. since the most expensive starter for 40k is cheaper, gives you more minis, full rulebook, a ton of plastic terrain, and a gaming board. But I understand PP is also selling battleboxes? 1 warcaster + 2 warjacks? That could help get new players into the game.
Anyway, I have a question: what happens with older models for Warmachine? They are phased out? All of them? Some? Which ones? Is there a list with the legal models in MK4? For example, I have some models from MK3 starter set - are they legal in MK4? I'm talking about Cygnar - Maddox, Firefly, Lancer, Ironclad +stormguard infantry. I also have Stormsmith storm towers. Will I be able to play MK4 with them?
And what about Cryx? Is the entire faction sent to the bin?
And there's any point in buying older models, like Deathjack or Thunderhead? Are they legal in MK4? I'm really confused right now. I really like Warmachine, and I love the models, but man, PP seems to try it's best to piss me off and lose me as a potential customer/gamer.
Anyway, I have a question: what happens with older models for Warmachine? They are phased out? All of them? Some? Which ones? Is there a list with the legal models in MK4? For example, I have some models from MK3 starter set - are they legal in MK4? I'm talking about Cygnar - Maddox, Firefly, Lancer, Ironclad +stormguard infantry. I also have Stormsmith storm towers. Will I be able to play MK4 with them?
And what about Cryx? Is the entire faction sent to the bin?
And there's any point in buying older models, like Deathjack or Thunderhead? Are they legal in MK4? I'm really confused right now. I really like Warmachine, and I love the models, but man, PP seems to try it's best to piss me off and lose me as a potential customer/gamer.
All old models will get updated MK4 rules. Some of them will be used to make armies for the the "Prime" (Standard) format that are made up of exclusively legacy models. Everything else will be for the Unlimited format in some form.
PP just published a list of the legacy Prime armies they expect to have ready for launch. You can find the list here:
Yeah, maybe if you are a pro painter looking for a good model to paint for a top competition, those are not going to be your first picks. But otherwise, for gaming purposes, there's absolutely nothing wrong with them and you can have them look great and enjoy how cheap they are at the same time. These model-quality discussions are especially weird, considering how low standards so many of our players have when it comes to their armies, to the point that I start believing that for many of them (not you, LunarSol, but I have even specific examples from my local community in mind) it seems to be an excuse to give themselves for why they are overpaying so much.
Lovely job on those Trolls! I do think Trolls really translate best to PVC. The large sculpts and big cartoony faces suffer a lot less from the loss of detail you see with most PVC sculpts and their big fingers and bulgy muscles and tendency towards irregular stonework details all just play to the medium's strengths. I still notice little things compared to some of the resin trolls (Madrak3 is a phenomenal sculpt all around) but of those MK3 battlebox casters, I think Ragnor is easily the best of the bunch. PP also generally did a really good job of avoiding going 2D with the PVC. Where it REALLY gets me is the lines of Steamforged, that basically lost all of their sense of motion and personality and turned their game lines into a bunch of boy band poses.
The funny thing is, I was a big fan of PVC once upon a time. Not that I couldn't see its issues, but they didn't really bother me, particularly the stuff PP was making with it. The bigger issue definitely comes with the logistics of it and the tendency for things to sit in limbo for years waiting for overseas production. People forget the real reason anthology books died is they often resulted in model rules being shown that due to production delays wouldn't see release for 2-3 years. I've kind of learned that all materials have their quirks and issues and you've just got to adapt accordingly, but PVC tends to be the one that most concerns me overall.
Why would I do that? I’m already invested in WM and have tons of models. That are now largely useless until sometime around 2024.
You have tons of models but can’t play one of the 28 legacy armies that will be available in October?
No I can’t because I never bought into the theme lists are awesome BS.
I have a large collection of varied models that were fun to paint and looked cool.
So aside from my small list of Cephalyx? No I can’t. At all.
And as for the battle boxes? Why they were a GenCon only exclusive is beyond me.
I was planning to buy two of them from their website but they killed the sales after a day due to not being able to keep up with demand. Yet, the whole point of going to 3D prints was to help with availability.
I was a massive fan of their IP. Steampunk is my jam. But with their pricing and lack of availability, I can’t justify spending more money on their stuff. Especially when it’s more expensive than GW!
Just trying to imagine a world where PP was on point with this release and messaging.
Not fixating on GenCon and instead hitting October, then doing later cons, and having their production fully sorted out.
Launching with the list of of Prime armies, and stats.
Focusing first on bringing back the old guard with all the older models getting actual armies to play, then stealthily saying they're moving forward with the time jump where they include less and less of the older models in the newer armies. Effectively making the Prime/Unlimited split without the hard delineation.
PP just dropped the complete list of Legacy armies making their way into the Prime Arena:
Blackclad Army (Circle)
Tharn Army (Circle)
Convergence Army
Crucible Guard Army
Bane Army (Cryx)
Blackfleet Army (Cryx)
Storm Knight Army (Cygnar)
Trencher Army (Cygnar)
Grymkin Army
Infernals Army
Man-O-War Army (Khador)
Winter Guard Army (Khador)
Blighted Nyss Army (Legion)
Blighted Ogrun Army (Legion)
Blindwater Army (Mercenary)
Cephalyx Army (Mercenary)
Farrow Army (Mercenary)
Privateer Army (Mercenary)
Rhulic Army (Mercenary)
Steelhead Army (Mercenary)
Exemplar Army (Protectorate)
Flameguard Army (Protectorate)
Dawnguard Army (Retribution)
Mage Hunter Army (Retribution)
Immortals Army (Skorne)
Praetorian Army (Skorne)
Northkin Army (Trollbloods)
United Kriels Army (Trollbloods)
Anyway, I have a question: what happens with older models for Warmachine? They are phased out? All of them? Some? Which ones? Is there a list with the legal models in MK4? For example, I have some models from MK3 starter set - are they legal in MK4? I'm talking about Cygnar - Maddox, Firefly, Lancer, Ironclad +stormguard infantry. I also have Stormsmith storm towers. Will I be able to play MK4 with them?
And what about Cryx? Is the entire faction sent to the bin?
And there's any point in buying older models, like Deathjack or Thunderhead? Are they legal in MK4? I'm really confused right now. I really like Warmachine, and I love the models, but man, PP seems to try it's best to piss me off and lose me as a potential customer/gamer.
All old models will get updated MK4 rules. Some of them will be used to make armies for the the "Prime" (Standard) format that are made up of exclusively legacy models. Everything else will be for the Unlimited format in some form.
PP just published a list of the legacy Prime armies they expect to have ready for launch. You can find the list here:
Thank you. Actually, after looking at this list and reading the beta rules and stat cards, I'm starting to get cautiously optimistic for MK4. I'm happy with the armies for Cryx - I think they could have included 1 more caster - say, 1 version of Gaspy, but aside that, I like it. I'm surprised Deathjack, Nightmare and Barathrum are not on the list, but maybe they will be included in the Blackfleet army. And I suppose the Wraith Engine will be legal once Collossal/Battle engine rules are included in mk4.
For Retribution I'm sad Defender of Ios didn't make the cut, but maybe they will include AFG in another list. Come on, it's too cool not to have it!
So, the 50 point skirmish level is basically Brawlmachine, and from here you can expand up. I like it.
The list also confuses me a little - eg Everblight have got two forces listed. However in general that was their entire mortal side listed - either Nyss or Ogre.
So it still doesn't really let me know what is getting chopped and what is staying; esp on the warbeast front - esp as Everblights thing was being warbeast heavy
I would assume grotesques, rotwings, hellmouth, Incubi, and Forsaken are out. Warbeast wise, based on Cryx it looks like you'll probably retain most (if not all) beast options, aside from maybe character beasts.
Please note that something not on the list is not 'Chopped'. It will just not have rules on release in October, but is supposed to get them eventually throughout the next year.
Warjack/Warbeast themes were a relic of the early Mk3 theme design where you had to take certain amounts of a specific type of unit to get the free points. Once they swapped to requisition points the need for battlegroup specific themes dropped off the map. They've been near the top of my chopping block wishlist for years now. I expect most of the warjack/beast options to be available though perhaps divided up a bit.
Cyel wrote: Please note that something not on the list is not 'Chopped'. It will just not have rules on release in October, but is supposed to get them eventually throughout the next year.
Not quite. The list contains specifically those items which will be playable in the Prime Arena under Mk4 as armies. There are additional items that may be included for play in the Prime Arena through some other means (hints of possibly being included as cadre options), but PP was very clear in saying that many (most) of the items that didn't fall within the context of the armies listed would not be playable in Prime Arena (and therefore could be described as "chopped").
Even though I expect myself and most of my players to stick to Prime, particularly since this list covers quite a bit of the popular themes as is, I'm pretty excited for Unlimited as a casual element. Like, its not something I expect to see a lot of events for or anything, but it's something I'm excited to see show up in pick up games even if I'm playing a Prime army myself.
Overread wrote: Honestly of the GW duel army sets I wonder how many are people starting with a friend and how many are simply people who are already in the GW ecosystem simply swapping models and trading with friends also already in the hobby
Because I'd wager they are not beginner/entry products save when someone is already buying and looking to move to a new army.
Nobody will ever convince me that these box are majority bought by "people starting to play that will share the box with a buddy".
They are more likely bought by people already in and anchored hard by GW price so they see these boxes are huge "saves", or (and this one is probably the majority) box breakers and resellers.
Grot 6 wrote: What are you supposed to do with the models you already have, bin them?
PP is really not doing themselves favors. I think that they are becoming victims of their own Page 5 propaganda, considering what they are trying to do here.
What you didn't read their manifesto?
They are totally not "destroying the word" (one could call that a End Time event), and they will totally do a reboot (like AoS), where your existing army is just unusable.
No no no, you see, here the goal is to stop selling all the old minies, and give pretty mediocre and basic rules for "some" armies (looks like my Morrowan force wasn't worth doing an army out of it, despite it being one of their most recent release) that will only be playable in a format nobody will play (Legend).
It's TOTALLY different than what GW has done to fantasy guys! TOTLY
tneva82 wrote: Generally people prefer to play miniature game with miniatues. Funny that.
But don't you get it? Only the army price count!
Here, take that game where armies only contain 3 infantry sized minies, they are ONLY 150$ each, which means that the WHOLE ARMY is ONLY 450$, which is clearly less than the cost of GW armies, thus its a great deal!
LunarSol wrote: You have tons of models but can’t play one of the 28 legacy armies that will be available in October?
I'm sure the Bretonnian and Tomb King players are also greatly enjoying playing AoS right now.
This thread had me looking at the launch article from PP about MKIV. Those $200 startersets (25ish models) are just for small game 50p lists with expansion sets to bump that up to 75p being aimed at around $175 (with only 15 models mentioned)!
And then you'd still have to get a few extra things to turn it into a standard 100p list? That's steep for that small number of 3D printed models.
And this ladies and gents is the PERFECT example of how the majority of people will react when introduced to that new MKIV.
You can pretend all you want that "it's akshually fairly priced if you look at the whole army price" or "Just proxy it with peanuts and bottle caps" is what everyone should do, but at the end of the day, people will come, see the price, see the content and make a very simple and quick judgement of value, one that will make them realize that, even compared to GW, this thing is incredibly expensive yet stingy in what it gives you.
I think people are overlooking the value of having a full set of options for the jacks, both in a gameplay sense and in the sense of materials provided. That's often the big hidden cost of GW value boxes. They regularly restrict you to suboptimal weapon loadouts to the point where its pretty common for players to immediately replace their box set models with the far more expensive general releases to play the better config.
Maybe that's what PP should have done? Sell a single jack loadout, cut a unit. Make it $150 for a static 50 point loadout and make people buy the extra jack loadouts later in singles? That doesn't seem worth it to me, but it's probably a better way to make people think they're getting a deal.
There's a MASSIVE difference between GW and PP tho.
When GW want to add more loadout option, it will make the sprue bigger/numerous.
When PP want to add more loadout options, it just add more stuff on the 3D printing plate.
LunarSol wrote: I don't understand how that's relevant to the contents of the starter boxes?
You were the one making a point about pricing.
You realize that pricing is usually tied to the production cost right?
You don't just cut options for lulz and giggles, even when you are GW.
Why would I do that? I’m already invested in WM and have tons of models. That are now largely useless until sometime around 2024.
You have tons of models but can’t play one of the 28 legacy armies that will be available in October?
No I can’t because I never bought into the theme lists are awesome BS.
I have a large collection of varied models that were fun to paint and looked cool.
So aside from my small list of Cephalyx? No I can’t. At all.
Well, you can do what our group does. play the models you like and keep playing the edition you like. We have no real interest in MK IV "streamlined" rules changes. we all have good sized armies with all the rules for MKIII so that is what we will keep playing....i also dislike the move away from steampunk, if i want that i can play another game system.
(HN) wrote:
There's a MASSIVE difference between GW and PP tho.
When GW want to add more loadout option, it will make the sprue bigger/numerous. When PP want to add more loadout options, it just add more stuff on the 3D printing plate.
Once upon a time GW LOVED kit bashing and custom models now it is effectively officially forbidden, and when it comes to extra options specifically, they are actively discouraging it. there is no reason to have 14 primaris LTs as separate kits when you could just add a weapons sprue to the box of a single kit...other than of course to force people to buy all of the kits separately to increase sales just to get the different weapon options.
LunarSol wrote: I don't understand how that's relevant to the contents of the starter boxes?
You were the one making a point about pricing.
You realize that pricing is usually tied to the production cost right?
You don't just cut options for lulz and giggles, even when you are GW.
Do you think there's no cost to produce all the Warjack options? Like there's a reason in the starter box contents they take up a third of the picture. They are not an insignificant chunk of the contents in either sculpting, printing or material. I'm not sure where you're going with this.
Btw, I already know there's no rulebook or unit cards in the box. What about accessories? Dice are hardly a problem for a new player but what about markers for effects and spells? Rulers? Those Tactic cards that are apparently going to be important.
I can make a comparison to the Asoiaf starters I've bought recently and they have all these (+ nice 2D cardboard terrain) in abundance, several punchboards of the stuff. I remember mk2 / 3 starters also coming with tokens.
aphyon wrote: Once upon a time GW LOVED kit bashing and custom models now it is effectively officially forbidden, and when it comes to extra options specifically, they are actively discouraging it. there is no reason to have 14 primaris LTs as separate kits when you could just add a weapons sprue to the box of a single kit...other than of course to force people to buy all of the kits separately to increase sales just to get the different weapon options.
Oh yes, I know, trust me I know.
I'm the first one to decry the rampant anti hobby stance of GW that actively discourage kitbashing by pushing more and more monopose stuff and removing all the wargear options that aren't "in the box".
That still doesn't change the fact that thos changes are made by the bean counters at GW that want to save some pennies on the dollar by making smaller/less sprues per boxes.
PP doesn't even have that excuse, or rather if you really want to be honest they do, but in an infinitly reduced capacity due to the nature of 3D printing.
Cyel wrote: Btw, I already know there's no rulebook or unit cards in the box. What about accessories? Dice are hardly a problem for a new player but what about markers for effects and spells? Rulers? Those Tactic cards that are apparently going to be important.
I can make a comparison to the Asoiaf starters I've bought recently and they have all these (+ nice 2D cardboard terrain) in abundance, several punchboards of the stuff. I remember mk2 / 3 starters also coming with tokens.
I expect the tactics cards to be a feature in the app.
Tokens would definitely be nice, though the standard cardboard punchout variety we see with a lot of these games these days kind of defeats the purpose of the switch to 3D printing. Most of those are handled overseas and have with plenty of games, been cause for delays with shipping disruptions. The plastic tokens PP sells officially would be a nice add for sure and they've included them in the past, but I'd wager those aren't produced in house either.
Tokens would definitely be nice, though the standard cardboard punchout variety we see with a lot of these games these days kind of defeats the purpose of the switch to 3D printing. Most of those are handled overseas and have with plenty of games, been cause for delays with shipping disruptions. The plastic tokens PP sells officially would be a nice add for sure and they've included them in the past, but I'd wager those aren't produced in house either.
They did sell official tokens in the past.
Don't see why they wouldn't do it with this new version. It's the easiest to do if you 3dprint your production, and it's easy money to grab from your customers.
I'm sure PP will keep selling them at a good old premium price just like their other miniatures. Because that's how they see the value of their brand.
They're no different from GW and people trying to paint them otherwise are just fooling themselves on that regard.
You have tons of models but can’t play one of the 28 legacy armies that will be available in October?
No I can’t because I never bought into the theme lists are awesome BS.
I have a large collection of varied models that were fun to paint and looked cool.
That's funny, I can't play one of the legacy armies because I thoroughly bought into the theme lists are awesome BS! I have a moderate collection of specific models that were fun to paint and looked cool. They just happened to be earlier ones that despite significant support at the time around what I thought was the implied protagonist of my faction, have vanished.
Honestly, I'd been half-following the new edition because I'd had enough detox time to see if maybe I was up for some steampunk robot action again and maybe bring back some fun, but nope, my armies don't exist as (previously explicitly thematic) complete armies anymore.
Seems like PP's new legacy lists are really working out, I wish them the best
That's funny, I can't play one of the legacy armies because I thoroughly bought into the theme lists are awesome BS! I have a moderate collection of specific models that were fun to paint and looked cool. They just happened to be earlier ones that despite significant support at the time around what I thought was the implied protagonist of my faction, have vanished.
Ooooh, which theme?
I've gone through the 28 supplied armies, and overall I should be good (I'll be able to run about 11 of the the armies).
Of course, the other thing to note is that once every model gets rules, I would expect Unlimited to be played for quite some time (at least 2ish years).
chaos0xomega wrote: Aside from Cygnar Gun Mages (RIP ), I can't imagine what you might be referring to. Care to elaborate?
Very curious what they'll do with Gun Mages. They're iconic and all, but as an army they don't work at all. They do seem well suited for the cadre system.
Regarding the value of the starter sets, I think pp ones are priced quite cheap. They cost the same as a combat patrol box from gw, but contain considerable more minis. Combat patrols also don't have any extras, and they give you 1/4 of a standard army, while pp ones give you 1/2 of an army, and that assuming 100 points will be the norm.
emanuelb wrote: Regarding the value of the starter sets, I think pp ones are priced quite cheap. They cost the same as a combat patrol box from gw, but contain considerable more minis. Combat patrols also don't have any extras, and they give you 1/4 of a standard army, while pp ones give you 1/2 of an army, and that assuming 100 points will be the norm.
(and this store only has limited offer for such a low price on mk4 boxes. It is actually so low that another store decided not to sell them, because they couldn't be so competitive with their prices - you could buy 3 Combat Patrol boxes for the non-discounted price
https://qualigeeks.eu/cygnar-storm-legion-core-army-starter-set The discount was only for preorders.)
Duel army sets run a gauntlet from £100 to £150 depending on the contents
Warmachine sets are £175 rrp and about £150 with store discount.
So basically yeah, Warmachine sets are near double the price of an entry point GW set for Combat Patrol. They are more in line with the top end of GW's sets.
Which is why there's a worry. GW are the biggest player in the market and in their line up the only game that actually has a starter set at that price point is Adepticus Titanicus - and GW were really cautious about that price working. Even now AT has multiple cheaper options to get into it,
Games like Dystopian Wars and Dropfleet etc... have sets at the £100 region. Infinity has also started with similarly priced boxed sets, which also contain pretty much a full army for the tabletop
This is the worry; PP have set themselves up with their core sets being at the absolute top end of the wargaming market price wise; with a much reduced sku system. On the one hand it might be that being at the top end hampers growth so that PP can keep up with demand without requiring additional investment. On the other it might well mean that Warmachine becomes a very niche game that's super hard to get new people into. Heck even those coming back are going to be a hard sell on sets that expensive.
Yes because the game uses fewer models you have "more" of an army. However the sticker shock on the set is much higher and, currently, with no cheaper alternative on the horizon (unless PP decide to make the event sets a default option). How much you need to get to an army doesn't matter as much as how much it costs to get started. Once you're "in" the system and collecting and gaming the sky is the limit. But you have to get people to that point.
This is the worry; PP have set themselves up with their core sets being at the absolute top end of the wargaming market price wise; with a much reduced sku system.
Not only that, PP have set themselves up with their core sets being at the absolute top end of the wargaming market price wise, with a reputation among the wargaming community that is at rock bottom.
Im a long time player. I have a lot of models and im interested in seeing what Mk4 actaully brings once its out of Beta and everything has been released. But im not buying anything new for a long time. And TBH, if I was a new wargamer, I would not be looking at WM/H given the high price point and overwhelming volume of negative info out there about the game/company/community.
That actually reminds me that a lot of stores also got burned by PP on supply issues too. So a lot of retailers might be making the same assessments we are. Yes the SKU is smaller, yes production and shipping should be better and regionalised; but that's a big gamble on price.
IT means the stores that likely stock them now might well stock them with the new MKIV as those stores likely have a healthy active population of players. But any other store that's on the fringe or hasn't stocked them before/in a while might not feel that £150 starters are going to actually sell or sell fast enough to recoup investment.
We really have to hope that the strong Gencon sales and feedback on these price issues get back to PP and that they do consider making more affordable smaller starter sets for their big launch. MKIV needs to be a soaring release with a huge amount of hype and popularity from the get-go. A huge positive upswing. More affordable starters is clearly a big part of any such upswing in attention.
It kind of feels like PP have done that thing where you need your product to make ten million, so you price it at one million and then you only have to sell ten copies to hit your target..
Siygess wrote: It kind of feels like PP have done that thing where you need your product to make ten million, so you price it at one million and then you only have to sell ten copies to hit your target..
Following GW Marketing 101 then.
The prices do seem rather extremely high though. Pushes me out of being interested at all.
I think it is really the market you are in. price wise it seems GW gives the EU and the UK better prices than in the US (and Australia from what i have heard).
Here the PP army box is far cheaper for what you get because you would have to buy 2 combat patrol boxes in most cases at $150 each from GW to roughly match the same number of minis by type.
GW Prices are all over the place internationally for no obvious reason. Usually, Poland and the Scandinavian countries that do not use Euro get the best deal, followed by the UK, followed by the EU. Then there is a large gap until you get to Canada, the US and Australia. The price difference between Poland/Scandinavia and Autralia/the US is dramatic: something that costs about 100 USD in Norway usually go for 150USD in the US/Australia. Some are more expensive and I have seen the Aussies paying 2x the price at times. The prices don't seem to change with currency fluctuations. I suspect they were set a long time ago, and GW fears to alienate the market by suddenly changing prices as currencies fluctuate.
And the market leader tends to determine the price point, even if that market leader has strange pricing policies and operate internationally. Hell, back in the late 2000s, when the dollar was very weak against the NOK, we got WMH models for almost nothing compared to GW models. You could get two lists for the price of a Combat Patrol at the most extreme.
Overread wrote: That actually reminds me that a lot of stores also got burned by PP on supply issues too. So a lot of retailers might be making the same assessments we are. Yes the SKU is smaller, yes production and shipping should be better and regionalised; but that's a big gamble on price.
IT means the stores that likely stock them now might well stock them with the new MKIV as those stores likely have a healthy active population of players. But any other store that's on the fringe or hasn't stocked them before/in a while might not feel that £150 starters are going to actually sell or sell fast enough to recoup investment.
We really have to hope that the strong Gencon sales and feedback on these price issues get back to PP and that they do consider making more affordable smaller starter sets for their big launch. MKIV needs to be a soaring release with a huge amount of hype and popularity from the get-go. A huge positive upswing. More affordable starters is clearly a big part of any such upswing in attention.
I spoke to my local store to see what they intend to do about MKIV, they had got burned with past dealing with PP, the response I got was even if they could get it until 1) PP prove that they have stock steadily available on good terms and the local groups actually play it they have no intention to even try stocking MKIV. The local players have said at the moment they are treating it as vaporware and believe its available when they see it stoked in stores its also being treated with an "wtf are those prices" attitude locally.
Kaptajn Congoboy wrote: GW Prices are all over the place internationally for no obvious reason. Usually, Poland and the Scandinavian countries that do not use Euro get the best deal, followed by the UK, followed by the EU. Then there is a large gap until you get to Canada, the US and Australia. The price difference between Poland/Scandinavia and Autralia/the US is dramatic: something that costs about 100 USD in Norway usually go for 150USD in the US/Australia. Some are more expensive and I have seen the Aussies paying 2x the price at times. The prices don't seem to change with currency fluctuations. I suspect they were set a long time ago, and GW fears to alienate the market by suddenly changing prices as currencies fluctuate.
Aye, it's actually crazy sometimes.
For example of something that's already basically overpriced;
The new Chaos Cultists cost 140 PLN in Poland, which is a smidge under 30 USD - not too shabby by GW standards, but I'd say it's still too much.
In USA, however, they cost 45 USD. So that's an over 50% increase in price.
In NZ, they cost a whopping 90 NZD. That's 55 USD and then some, almost twice of what they cost in Poland.
Oh, I forgot the poor New Zealanders. They really get the stick.
One day someone is going to discover how to undercut US/Aus/Can/Nz prices by exporting from Scandinavia, Poland or the UK without GW noticing and shutting them down and then all GW players can enjoy US prices
It used to be that you could sometimes get vehicle kits cheaper from Forge World in the US because you'd pay UK prices for it instead of what GW charges for the base kits here.
The long and the short of it is that yeah, in Europe, PP models can be very expensive compared to GW models. This applies to a lot of US companies. MCP models are horrifyingly expensive in Norway; a two-model pack can cost the equivalent of $50 and the big single models can cost over $100. Malifaux 4-model starters can easily cost $50 or more.
Personally, I hope that PP can get the price point down for their european market if/when they find a company (or more) that can do what Cerberus did for them with metal and partly resins (before they branched out into making their own miniature line), but with 3d printing. That sure would help promote the game over here.
The pricing has definitely killed my interest for mkiv , along with not being able to get a preview box.
Seeing a lot of GE comparisons , well here in England the cheapest I’ve seen the $200 starter is £155. That’s frankly ludicrous. That’s two discounted GW combat patrols plus another squad or character and then I’d have a 1k or more list to use. And plenty of opponents.
I fear PP hasn’t thought this through or failed to realise how much they have burnt their overseas retail relations.
That's a big problem for me. I wouldn't mind paying $200 if I knew I would have opponents. I do mind gambling $200 plus however many hours of assembly/paint on a game that might not have another player in my state, let alone a group of players. I don't see my local stores getting back into stocking PP. They have no incentive to try and maintain a playerbase, and there's no more press gangers to do it either. Who else is buying this game for me to play against?
Who else is buying this game for me to play against?
As subset of the existing and former player base. Not sure if I have heard of any new people getting in (in any significant numbers)
We've got a decent spike in interest locally. Half dozen or so players that were showing interest in Brawlmachine that see this as a better jumping on point. About 50:50 in terms of people excited for the new armies and bought GenCon boxes and those that are happy to use this as an excuse to buy an army of legacy stuff. Whether its enough to bring the community back to its pre-COVID size largely depends on how many players come back to test out their old stuff, though things are looking fairly optimistic over all.
So I tried to preorder an Orgoth starter from one of my LGS ... but they aren't currently planning to stock MK4. They've been burned by PP in the past plus feel the $75 battle boxes are too expensive to get new players in (IF they were even available), let alone the $200 chonkers, which are too expensive to get returning players in.
There's another LGS in town, but I figured the one that actually stocks MonPoc, Riot Quest and new MK3 stuff would be game. The other one liquidated their PP stock long ago and definitely has zero room for MK4 on its shelves.
We don't have any existing players in this part of Florida, despite having players for almost every other game. I don't think their new direction is enough to get stores to stock it and play groups to start from nothing.
Funny enough, the prior community of players locked into Warmachine is what inspired me to build something a little more flexible. We just play games that interest people, people pick up whatever interests them, some games stick, some don't. People call out what they want to play and people jump in. Not a lot of week to week consistency, but its felt a lot healthier than being locked into weekly practice. The new armies are looking to fit well into that kind of community and some of our early test games are looking promising that it will be one that sticks..
Yeah, biggest frustration I had when I was maining WMHDs was that most of the rest of the community was mainLINING WMHDs - as in they were addicted and didn't want to ever play a pallet cleanser or take a brak and play another game for a few weeks. They just kept playng WMHDs until they burned out and didn't want to play anything at all anymore.
PP really needs the existing players to carry the banner for them, and I'm not sure that's going to happen.
It's not, at least with our group
We have 11 active WM/H players, most are there every weekend. we have large collections of minis to play with, and we have no interest in where they are taking the rules for MKIV.
So, we will happily keep playing MKIII where we already own all the rules, and models we like to use.
Who else is buying this game for me to play against?
As subset of the existing and former player base. Not sure if I have heard of any new people getting in (in any significant numbers)
The problem with new people is always
a) how do they find out about it?
and
b) how do they start a group from scratch?
PP really needs the existing players to carry the banner for them, and I'm not sure that's going to happen.
They could use volunteers perhaps? Call them gangpressers, something like that.
Yeah, and it’d be really cheap for them to get two demo armies….oh…..wait…..
Yeah there's another problem with the super high priced entry point. Any attempt to get any kind of community rep system or even just one person trying to tempt people outside of it is going to face a huge upfront cost. £300 UK for two starter armies alone. No paints, brushes, dice or anything.
Yes that's a lot of models, but at the same time that's a huge up front cost for anyone to shoulder to try and get people into a new game. For that same cost you can get several armies for starters from most other firms; or just buy into an existing running game. Infinity, Dropfleet/Zone, Dystopian Wars, Malifaux - heck for many of them that amount of money gets you a very well rounded army with room for changing up what you take.
Maybe PP should be looking into a £100 (at most) set with two forces specifically for starter matches.
Seems like we're in a price window in which, for the price of two 3d-printed starter armies, you can go and buy yourself a medium sized printer like a Saturn, and resin.
Did not see it mentioned and apoligies if already referenced, but I though Discourse Miniatures did a good summation of the problems with Privateer Press and MKIV. Needless to say, given what I have read so far in this thread and such, seems MKIV's prospects are not good.
The point GW could have had a 'vs.' match versus PP passed unnoticed years ago, mostly when PP adopted the worst aspects of the GW playbook and own-goaled their own player base.
Lord of Deeds wrote: Did not see it mentioned and apoligies if already referenced, but I though Discourse Miniatures did a good summation of the problems with Privateer Press and MKIV. Needless to say, given what I have read so far in this thread and such, seems MKIV's prospects are not good.
Honestly, don't give to bits about what Discourse Miniatures has to say about, well, anything. I've watched a few of their videos, and they're click-baiting trolls of the worst type IMO.
All this doom and gloom aside...ALOT of people did buy the starter sets at Gencon. And they sold so many of the starters sets online that that had to cut off ordering cause they couldn't keep up with how many were ordered. That cant be bad
So , there is some evidence alot of people are into this. I think that people will pull out their old models, see how the new game works ..and if it works well then maybe get some people into it. Build slow and let the game speak for itself (if its good and fun).
Also...and this may be anecdotal...people in my area drop 2 hundred on a game all the time. People who never once went to forgeworld payed 300 for that Horus Heresy starter set (with no intention of sharing or splitting) without blinking an eye. I don't think 200 usd is as much a barrier as some do. (none of this apples to UK prices of which I know nothing about)
Lord of Deeds wrote: Did not see it mentioned and apoligies if already referenced, but I though Discourse Miniatures did a good summation of the problems with Privateer Press and MKIV. Needless to say, given what I have read so far in this thread and such, seems MKIV's prospects are not good.
Honestly, don't give to bits about what Discourse Miniatures has to say about, well, anything. I've watched a few of their videos, and they're click-baiting trolls of the worst type IMO.
I made it 1 min into this video and had to quit. Obvious troll is trolling....
Thing is if HH fails you can still use most of those models as counts as in 40K. Plus its a GW game, anything GW makes has a powerful following. You turn up to any wargame club that isn't historical you can generally guarantee they play 40K and/or AoS and likely a few other GW games.IF they don't chance are convincing someone to start isn't that hard.
Thing is the issue isn't that £150 for a set is bad, its that £150 is the gateway product PP wants you to buy and is the only one they are putting out.
As the Gencon Starter sets showed, there 100% is still interest in PP. And those kind of starter set are just what the market has right now. If anything cheaper than a GW starter set, cheaper than an army pack from Infinity or Dropfleet. So ideal for getting people tempted into the game.
The market can take high priced sets, but what we are worried about is that the market won't take them as much as they could take a cheaper starter set. Especially for a game franchise that's been bleeding players for a long time and which needs to get old blood back and bring in fresh blood.
Honestly best thing is if PP say that those Gencon starters sold so well that they are putting them into general production for release.
Honestly best thing is if PP say that those Gencon starters sold so well that they are putting them into general production for release.
I wonder if eventually they will do this for future factions- these are very attractive items, and given that they contain the C warcaster as well as jacks people will likely want multiples of, they can just swap out the C Warcaster SKU for these and have a great intro product without any additional SKU bloat.
We'll see. If things keep selling well, I'm sure they'll look at their line and keep trying to tweak it if things go well.
I increasingly agree that Caster C + Warjack A + Warjack B should be a standing gateway product. Do away with the individual SKUs and bundle them together, individual Warjack A/B can be made available for direct sales, no point pushing those to retail because between the Caster C/Warjack A/B combo box and the $200 starter set anyone serious about playing a given faction is going to end up with 2 of each anyway, and that seems like it should be more than enough. If they really want some lower cost items, then they can add two individually packed units or solos per faction (or one of each) in the $20-30 range or whatever to be released to retail. It keeps the SKU count constant but creates a nice "bridge" for players starting with the Caster C/Warjack A/B set - instead of scaling up to a $150 or $200 box, you can drop $50 or whatever for a smaller bump and add a couple non-jacks to your list for slightly larger games. It'll give each faction just a *little* more variety, and also increase each factions "lifetime revenue" (or whatever its called) per customer, as anyone collecting the faction in full will end up buying just a little bit more stuff than they will currently.
After sitting through the same channels attempts to convince people that the new Horus Heresy was a very bad thing, actually, I can't take that channel to be anything other than gakky clickbait relying on negatie hot-takes to farm clicks.
Honestly, don't give to bits about what Discourse Miniatures has to say about, well, anything. I've watched a few of their videos, and they're click-baiting trolls of the worst type IMO.
Absolutely. They channel has monetized concern trolling and turned it into an artform.
I've gotten to where I block any channel suggested to me with hyperbolic nonsense in the title. Dead, Doom, Disaster, Failure, etc, etc, etc are words I've decided to actively start punishing in what ways I can be it in games or movies or whatever content someone is trying to try and stir up controversy. People spend so much more time getting worked up over things than enjoying them and I'm just kind of over it all. Spending an hour not really liking something is better than spending half an hour listening to someone tell me why I might not like it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
chaos0xomega wrote: I increasingly agree that Caster C + Warjack A + Warjack B should be a standing gateway product. Do away with the individual SKUs and bundle them together, individual Warjack A/B can be made available for direct sales, no point pushing those to retail because between the Caster C/Warjack A/B combo box and the $200 starter set anyone serious about playing a given faction is going to end up with 2 of each anyway, and that seems like it should be more than enough. If they really want some lower cost items, then they can add two individually packed units or solos per faction (or one of each) in the $20-30 range or whatever to be released to retail. It keeps the SKU count constant but creates a nice "bridge" for players starting with the Caster C/Warjack A/B set - instead of scaling up to a $150 or $200 box, you can drop $50 or whatever for a smaller bump and add a couple non-jacks to your list for slightly larger games. It'll give each faction just a *little* more variety, and also increase each factions "lifetime revenue" (or whatever its called) per customer, as anyone collecting the faction in full will end up buying just a little bit more stuff than they will currently.
Given that the individual Warcaster/Warjack SKUs aren't due until mid-late Nov/early Dec, its entirely possible that PP recognizes this already and might change their plans. One can certainly hope at least.
When I see a cartoony shocked face on the thumbnail, and the title uses words like that, I know it's just clickbait BS. I wish everyone would start ignoring those videos and force content creators to actually make content worth watching instead of relying on clickbait and shock factor.
Part of the issue is those clickbait titles and keywords and comments are what Google looks for. You're almost shoe-horned into using them because that's what the search engine optimising systems are looking for; advising you to use and what google is hunting for.
It's why so many popular things are so click-baity. Because once you learn that system and once you play that system - it works. It generates you those clicks, views, watches and that helps generate the interest that gets you views which gets you money from sponsors and advertising.
High production, click bait videos are sadly what gets the attention on YouTube.
Anyway, back to the actual topic.
Has anyone here tried the new MKIV rules. I haven't had chance to try them out, but after reading them they read like a decent progression of the game.
I'm still on the fence mainly due to how even at legacy it will mean a lot of models I have are not used. Got a few 5 model 40mm based units, which are going down to 3 models per unit max. Slightly annoying.
Yes, while a 10-strong unit can be played as two fives, a 5-strong one will have 2 models always sitting on the shelf, which is a waste of good models.
stonehorse wrote: High production, click bait videos are sadly what gets the attention on YouTube.
Anyway, back to the actual topic.
Has anyone here tried the new MKIV rules. I haven't had chance to try them out, but after reading them they read like a decent progression of the game.
I'm still on the fence mainly due to how even at legacy it will mean a lot of models I have are not used. Got a few 5 model 40mm based units, which are going down to 3 models per unit max. Slightly annoying.
My friend and I are trying it today. I'll report on our thoughts
stonehorse wrote: High production, click bait videos are sadly what gets the attention on YouTube.
Anyway, back to the actual topic.
Has anyone here tried the new MKIV rules. I haven't had chance to try them out, but after reading them they read like a decent progression of the game.
I'm still on the fence mainly due to how even at legacy it will mean a lot of models I have are not used. Got a few 5 model 40mm based units, which are going down to 3 models per unit max. Slightly annoying.
My friend and I are trying it today. I'll report on our thoughts
Lord of Deeds wrote: Did not see it mentioned and apoligies if already referenced, but I though Discourse Miniatures did a good summation of the problems with Privateer Press and MKIV. Needless to say, given what I have read so far in this thread and such, seems MKIV's prospects are not good.
What's amusing is that the rest of the video thumbnails are about the collapse/failure/doom of GW/their products.
But I can't be the only one who feels there's a real hope from a lot of people that MK4 fails. It's like people got burnt by PP once and are desperate for them not to succeed, but will happily give GW infinite chances.
I think some of it is people protecting themselves. They talk about how much MKIV will fail as a means to help justify and keep justifying to themselves not to invest into it. They think it might fail (or at least not do as well as they hope) and they thus want to avoid that disappointment. They are still keens so they have to constantly reinforce.
Sites like Discourse Miniatures however are just purely in the whole doom and gloom for the fact that it works super easily to generate attention with clicks and fanbases and thus generate income. Yes they'll put out positive articles every so often, but by and large they'll do the doom train to generate interest.
Downside is when you start watching one or two of that kind of video, youtube pushes them on you more and more with its algorithm
I think there is also an element of PP burned me I hate them. That happens and the internet echo-chambers that up and can sometimes get to quite stupid results as a result.
I think the proof in the pudding will be when PP launch MKIV. I think many of us are really hoping they do well and are more concerned right now that PP's opening bid is perhaps well thought out for their back end manufacture and investment, but perhaps not the best in terms of the customer side of things.
Certainly early signs are strong when they sold out of the cheaper starter packs and had to stop taking orders of more.
I'd like for them to work. Honestly I wouldn't mind a fun secondary game to 40k. I just could never get into it earlier because of the style of play (very gotcha) and honestly our local scene was full of get goods.
stonehorse wrote: High production, click bait videos are sadly what gets the attention on YouTube.
Anyway, back to the actual topic.
Has anyone here tried the new MKIV rules. I haven't had chance to try them out, but after reading them they read like a decent progression of the game.
I'm still on the fence mainly due to how even at legacy it will mean a lot of models I have are not used. Got a few 5 model 40mm based units, which are going down to 3 models per unit max. Slightly annoying.
My friend and I are trying it today. I'll report on our thoughts
I look forward to reading your findings.
We played a 30pt game between cryx and menoth in which cryx got owned(menoth stuff seemed crazy strong). Its amazing how fast we fell into remembering the game. The no facing and the inch engagement range really make the game feel more streamlined. I had forgotten how much the game rely on the little icons...so..that was a learning curve of "what the feth does this do? moments. The "Gotchas" are still there if you don't ask your opponent what a unit does, but that was on me cause I was playing hard and fast and just trying to get back into the game. We had some real nice tactical moments but yeah..you gotta know your charge distances or your gonna get hammered. The rules are great. I'm not sure how this is gonna look when it comes to unit balance, list building etc etc....but it was hella fun to put my old models on the table and play again. I'm looking forward to my starter box to see how prime is gonna feel since I assume there focus is gonna be making sure thats all balanced
I think some of it is people protecting themselves. They talk about how much MKIV will fail as a means to help justify and keep justifying to themselves not to invest into it.
I really do not want PP to fail. i think the direction they are going with 3d printing and the optional multipart sku reducing kits are a brilliant idea. there need to be more competition to GW. that said i already play 10 different systems.....my problem is with the beta rules.
The no facing and the inch engagement range really make the game feel more streamlined
Right there is the problem for me. it is a skirmish game, i am not interested in it being AOS or 8th ed 40K "streamlined" . i like the way it is. and since our group doesn't do steamroller, themed lists and generally do not play over 50 point battles we have not run into the issues other players complain about.
I have watched video battle report play tests and i have read the beta rules. i do not need to play test it myself to dislike what i see.
Lord of Deeds wrote: Did not see it mentioned and apoligies if already referenced, but I though Discourse Miniatures did a good summation of the problems with Privateer Press and MKIV. Needless to say, given what I have read so far in this thread and such, seems MKIV's prospects are not good.
What's amusing is that the rest of the video thumbnails are about the collapse/failure/doom of GW/their products.
But I can't be the only one who feels there's a real hope from a lot of people that MK4 fails. It's like people got burnt by PP once and are desperate for them not to succeed, but will happily give GW infinite chances.
Hulksmash wrote: I'd like for them to work. Honestly I wouldn't mind a fun secondary game to 40k. I just could never get into it earlier because of the style of play (very gotcha) and honestly our local scene was full of get goods.
So if they can fix that I'd be down to try it.
The problem with WMHDs being a "secondary game" is that a few years ago they built a narrative as an alternative/competitor to 40k as a "primary game", but the collapse of the game/company that followed means that its now seen as a failure or as an also-ran, etc. This poisons its perception in the community and means that anything short of it being able to compete directly with 40k as a primary game will result in it being perceived as a failure in the community narrative. Its a tough position for the game and Privateer Press to be in, and a strong cautionary tale about the risks of marketing yourself as a direct alternative to the market leader.
Is their new production method something FLGS can wholesale order from? Or is it more direct to customer only?
Yes, but thats the way their old production method was too. The difficulty Europe and the UK had in getting WMHDs was due in large part to distributors in the region not wanting to carry the product, meaning stores could only order directly from Privateer Press, but the costs of PP sending product from the far side of the US to Europe was prohibitively expensive to the point that overseas retailers didn't want to bother unless they were placing very large orders that would justify the cost. PP tried to set up an EU/UK distribution center but for various reasons it didn't really pan out very well. A big part of it is that retailers are overwhelmed with product releases and if its not something they can order through their distributors they just won't bother because theres a lot of additional overhead added having to source products directly from publishers (like PP) via separate trade accounts vs just using a distributor as a one-stop-shop.
Toofast wrote: 9th 40k has way more gotcha moments than WMH ever did IMO
It’s not just a gotcha moment in WMH tho, it’s a gotcha game over, time to pack up your models because casterkill. 40K isn’t that level
there is a new play style..where only casters can kill casters..other units just stun your caster. so casterkill doesn't just end your game out of nowhere
I'm also saying gotcha in player style not just moments. I find in 40k most opponents actively try not to gotcha. That was not my, rather limited I admit, experience with warmahordes 2ed
stonehorse wrote: High production, click bait videos are sadly what gets the attention on YouTube.
Anyway, back to the actual topic.
Has anyone here tried the new MKIV rules. I haven't had chance to try them out, but after reading them they read like a decent progression of the game.
I'm still on the fence mainly due to how even at legacy it will mean a lot of models I have are not used. Got a few 5 model 40mm based units, which are going down to 3 models per unit max. Slightly annoying.
My friend and I are trying it today. I'll report on our thoughts
I look forward to reading your findings.
We played a 30pt game between cryx and menoth in which cryx got owned(menoth stuff seemed crazy strong). Its amazing how fast we fell into remembering the game. The no facing and the inch engagement range really make the game feel more streamlined. I had forgotten how much the game rely on the little icons...so..that was a learning curve of "what the feth does this do? moments. The "Gotchas" are still there if you don't ask your opponent what a unit does, but that was on me cause I was playing hard and fast and just trying to get back into the game. We had some real nice tactical moments but yeah..you gotta know your charge distances or your gonna get hammered. The rules are great. I'm not sure how this is gonna look when it comes to unit balance, list building etc etc....but it was hella fun to put my old models on the table and play again. I'm looking forward to my starter box to see how prime is gonna feel since I assume there focus is gonna be making sure thats all balanced
Thanks for the info, glad it plays well. Good to hear that you were both able to get back into the swing of things quite quickly. The new movement and no back arcs do sound like they will speed up the game.
The icons were something I was not a fan of initially back in MKII, but I have grown to really appreciate them. They are USR's dine in very short hand.
Good job on the Menoth win, always found Cryx to be a very slippery opponent.
Toofast wrote: 9th 40k has way more gotcha moments than WMH ever did IMO
It’s not just a gotcha moment in WMH tho, it’s a gotcha game over, time to pack up your models because casterkill. 40K isn’t that level
See, I've always viewed that as the game has multiple paths to victory. Which can help give a player who is not doing so well in the mission a chance of winning still. It also means that your most powerful piece (warcaster/warlock), has to be used with some restraint, otherwise it can go south quickly. A way to keep their power in check.
Having said that, I have had games in the past where I have won before my opponent got to activate back in MKI. Advance deploy Widowmakers, Butcher moves up pops his feat, Widowmakers move forward and shoot Nemo with boosted damage rolls. My opponent to be fair did leave Nemo a bit exposed. It was a quick lesson. After that we just played a second game, and it never happened again.
At the beginning of my adventure with Warmachine I lost 2 potential players, my friends with whom I've played Warhammer Fantasy Battles for many years.
Basically for them WM, due to assassination felt like random chess - the version where you play chess normally and after the game you roll a D6 and on a 1 winner and loser swirch places.
I kind of agree, for me, the assassination victory condition has been a single biggest source of disappointing games of WM. I wouldn't mind seeing it go. Especially as losing the main battlegroup controler is already a crippling blow.
I actually like the caster kill mechanic as an alternate win mechanic much like 40K from 3rd-7th had the board wipe secondary win mechanic. and infinity has the flee/break mechanic. it is just tactics.
At the same time, we also play the WHFB version of WM/H where we bring no casters/worlocks and no jacks/warbeasts and play line infantry battles how 95% of how the battles are supposed to be fought in the universe. It is actually a pretty fun fantasy battle style game mode.
aphyon wrote: I actually like the caster kill mechanic as an alternate win mechanic much like 40K from 3rd-7th had the board wipe secondary win mechanic. and infinity has the flee/break mechanic. it is just tactics.
At the same time, we also play the WHFB version of WM/H where we bring no casters/worlocks and no jacks/warbeasts and play line infantry battles how 95% of how the battles are supposed to be fought in the universe. It is actually a pretty fun fantasy battle style game mode.
Problem then is how to keep scenario relevant when casterkill provides quick win regardless of scenario.
I think Caster Kill was a problem when the armies got bigger and bigger in MKII and the caster became more and more vulnerable because, as you say, caster kill was normally the breaking point for the game. Either you won outright or the power difference crippled one player at that point.
It's a neat idea, but I feel like after a certain points value the Caster Kill shouldn't happen. Or perhaps they should have introduced a system of a free "demi" caster per X points. So if you kill the main caster you've still lower level ones to keep things functional etc...
Ergo so that caster killing is important, but not the win/lose element.
In Warcaster they removed the caster from the playingfield entirely to get around that
Well, you learn how to play to avoid it, but mistakes still happen (and will happen, ad PP decided that streamlining and "decreasing the mental load"is removing front arcs but leaving the overload of special rules which are the main sources of Gotchas and confusion and unavoidable surprises and easy to forget interactions).
The thing for many critics of casterkill is whether a player who made 50 good moves and one bad (possibly just forgetting something about the opponent 's army) should lose to the other player who made 50 bad moves and was unknowingly given the good one on a silver platter.
* Mitigate model bloat
* * Lore based sub factions that does not limit model choice
* * Increased variety among unit types (example: warjacks for a faction often being redundant due to low variance in stats/game role)
* * Implement game modes (like Brawlmachine) and campaigns (like a specific conflict you can play trough that has limited model selection for that campaign) <- both these replaces theme lists
* * More reason to take multiples of a unit (more FA 3 or higher, cheaper units)
* Decrease mechanical complexity
* * Decrease need for memorization
* * * Decrease amount of stats
* * * Increase standard stats and special abilities
* * * Decrease amount of special abilities and remove as many unique special abilities as possible
* * Remove templates
* * Remove model by model activation
* Increase tactical complexity
* * Less hard questions/answers more soft questons/answers (example: Stealth - instead of auto miss make it a boost to defense, loss of line of sight not making you totally untouchable, etcetera)
* * Scenarios are fine, assassination is fine, retain those mechanics as a win condition.
* * Revamp terrain rules to be more important and designed for 3d terrain <- would also allow you to sell terrain kits
* * Less lethality. Some mechanics to allow you to react. Less gotchas.
* Remove theme lists
* Review and remove old design assumptions.
* Go trough each faction, define what they are - not according to lore or mechanics but what players think of them. If you want to reboot a faction reboot faction identity first and take care to get it right.
Two biggest issues: Model bloat and theme lists (who I think was intended to fix the bloat)
Second biggest issues: Fiddly, unfun complexity, and price of models.
Cyel wrote: At the beginning of my adventure with Warmachine I lost 2 potential players, my friends with whom I've played Warhammer Fantasy Battles for many years.
Basically for them WM, due to assassination felt like random chess - the version where you play chess normally and after the game you roll a D6 and on a 1 winner and loser swirch places.
I kind of agree, for me, the assassination victory condition has been a single biggest source of disappointing games of WM. I wouldn't mind seeing it go. Especially as losing the main battlegroup controler is already a crippling blow.
I have my issues with caster kill too, but... this is a truly bizarre way to view it. Your caster is your king. If you lose your caster in WMHDs, you are losing your king in chess. In both games the outcome is the same, regardless of whether or not you played "normally". Theres nothing random about that.
The thing for many critics of casterkill is whether a player who made 50 good moves and one bad (possibly just forgetting something about the opponent 's army) should lose to the other player who made 50 bad moves and was unknowingly given the good one on a silver platter.
That basically never happens - you very rarely make 50 bad moves and then suddenly get the opportunity to nail your opponents caster. The only time anything close to that happens is if your opponents decides to make an assassination run in order to end the game early and fails.
* Mitigate model bloat Being accomplished by all armies in the game essentially being "limited factions" that will not be endlessly expanded
* * Lore based sub factions that does not limit model choice Not sure what this means, the idea of lore based subfactions which don't have any limitations on what you can field within them is completely at odds with itself
* * Increased variety among unit types (example: warjacks for a faction often being redundant due to low variance in stats/game role) well, I think this is fixed with each subfaction only have 5-6 units and 2 warjacks available
* * Implement game modes (like Brawlmachine) and campaigns (like a specific conflict you can play trough that has limited model selection for that campaign) <- both these replaces theme lists Well, theres definitely game modes in mk4, but maybe not the way you meant. Theme lists are entirely gone, and I don't see campaigns happening the way you want them to - very few people outside of historical gamers want to play a narrative campaign where they are restricted to playing only the units that the campaign tells them to play
* * More reason to take multiples of a unit (more FA 3 or higher, cheaper units) This is purely a personal choice, but is mainly driven by game size considerations. WMHDs isn't 40k and nobody really wants it to be, you would have to grow game model count in order for people to justify redundant units over having a more diverse toolbox
* Decrease mechanical complexity The game isn't that mechanically complex, in fact its incredibly simple, everything is simply 2d6+stat vs target number
* * Decrease need for memorization You don't really need to memorize all that much, what you do need to do is learn to ask the right questions to get the information you want from your opponent (really a community issue, too many players are donkey-caves and will only answer the exact question you answer them rather than elaborating
* * * Decrease amount of stats There aren't all that many stats to begin with, theres fewer stats than most games, theres nothing you could eliminate without requiring a complete rewrite of the games core mechanics
* * * Increase standard stats and special abilities your previous bullet point was "decrease amount of stats" - make up your mind, do you want them decreased or increased?
* * * Decrease amount of special abilities and remove as many unique special abilities as possible there aren't all that many unique special abilities in the game, for the most part its just feats - which are supposed to be unique. also, again, your previous bullet point is increase special abilities, now you want to decrease them - make up your mind
* * Remove templates done, templates are thankfully gone
* * Remove model by model activation errr, this was never a thing to begin with. individual models activate as individual models, units activate as uints. This is how its always been.
* Increase tactical complexity the game is already one of the most tactically complex on the market
* * Less hard questions/answers more soft questons/answers (example: Stealth - instead of auto miss make it a boost to defense, loss of line of sight not making you totally untouchable, etcetera) stealth is already a soft question - get within 5" and it doesn't exist. there are plenty of soft questions/answers in the game already (seriously, the majority are soft) and very few "hard" ones. this concern is overstated
* * Scenarios are fine, assassination is fine, retain those mechanics as a win condition. your wish is granted
* * Revamp terrain rules to be more important and designed for 3d terrain <- would also allow you to sell terrain kits we'll see how this goes, but this isn't a rules issue so much as it is a community issue. The rules have been rewritten so that some of the concerns that players had with 3d terrain are less of a factor, but its up to the community to break away from playing with felt and neoprene
* * Less lethality. Some mechanics to allow you to react. Less gotchas. the game is already incredibly non-lethal, this is a big reason for why games of warmachine become a center table scrum, because more often than not clustering together into the center of the table provides various defensive bonuses that help keep models alive
* Remove theme lists already done
* Review and remove old design assumptions. this statement is completely meaningless
* Go trough each faction, define what they are - not according to lore or mechanics but what players think of them. If you want to reboot a faction reboot faction identity first and take care to get it right. similarly nonsensical, warmachine is the game with perhaps the strongest sense of faction identity, there is no need to "define" them further, there is nothing that separates player perception from the way the factions are designed
I have my issues with caster kill too, but... this is a truly bizarre way to view it. Your caster is your king. If you lose your caster in WMHDs, you are losing your king in chess. In both games the outcome is the same, regardless of whether or not you played "normally". Theres nothing random about that.
I disagree, there's very often a lot random about that. How often do you hear about going for a 25% or 30% assassinations? Or even 50-50 ones where a coin toss overrides the entire game up to that point?
That was the exact comment of one of those friends, a wargaming vet with many gold medals for being the captain of the Polish ETC team in Warhammer Fantasy - so not an amateur's opinion: "We play a strategy game and one player gets the upper hand so now we roll dice and on a 4+ (or sometimes on a 5+ or 6+) the other player wins. I pass on such a game".
Like random chess.
I also disagree about mechanical complexity not being a thing in WM. Dice rolling may be easy but I had to show the rulebook on many occassions even to tournament veterans sotheycan see what models outside of formation can do or how differently slams and throws work or how model size affects LOS (for so many people the size of the attacker matters!) Because there are somany misconceptions about these rules.
GMG has recently published a few Brawlmachine reports. For the McBain one I wrote the entire huge list of mistakes I noticed - it's in the comments for the video. It tells a lot about the complexity of the game even at such a small model count. Hell, even the SR rulespack is longer than instructions for most board games I have.
Yeah, gonna roll my eyes and disagree. Theres no difference between "I was controlling the zone and killing all your dudes and then I lost because I left my caster exposed" and "I was controlling the board and killing all your pawns and then I lost because I left my king exposed".
Both games are equally "random" in their outcomes. The only difference here is that in chess taking a king is a binary outcome whereas caster kill has some dice rolling involved - but if you lose your caster it isn't because it happened randomly, its because you suck (or, yknow, your opponent outplayed you, either/or).
Really? Does it really rarely happen to you that you kill the enemy caster with the last available attack and if it fails it's game over for you?
Similarly, when losing attrition in chess do you sometimes decide "ok, I will take this 20% chance of check-mate, it's the best I can do" and then let RNG decide the outcome?
In fact it's one of the reasons I rarely if ever attempt casterkill - I don't want to fall victim to the dice. I am a steady scenario player because I don't trust the dice
Cyel wrote: Really? Does it really rarely happen to you that you kill the enemy caster with the last available attack and if it fails it's game over for you?
That actually happens to me quite often... because I suck and I often play myself into a corner such that my only hope of winning a game is to perform a long-odds assassination attempt. Thats not a problem with the rules, thats a problem with *me*. And I go into those assassination runs knowing what the cost is and what the consequences are. Its a *choice* I make because I often don't find myself with better options (or if there are better options I don't necessarily see them until after the fact when my opponent points them out to me - because I suck).
My regular opponents for the game are legitimately world class players (seriously, one of the guys I basically taught how to play the game is now the captain of this years WTC team) - they very rarely fail their assassination attempts, because they are good and they don't put themselves into a corner where its "assassination or bust", and when they do go for an assassination run they do it with the surety that they will succeed because they have sufficient tools and resources to put the necessary damage into the caster, strip the opposing casters defensive abilities, etc. The amount of influence RNG has on a well planned and properly executed assassination run is being grossly overstated. If you regularly find yourself not successfully pulling off assassinations, thats (again) more of a "you" problem than it is a game problem, it means you're reaching and attempting to assassinate a caster that you aren't properly set up to take down.
Interestingly, my local players are also WTC players from the top Polish team and they all rarely if ever attempt assassinations because they don't want to gamble on their win ;D
Cyel wrote: At the beginning of my adventure with Warmachine I lost 2 potential players, my friends with whom I've played Warhammer Fantasy Battles for many years.
Basically for them WM, due to assassination felt like random chess - the version where you play chess normally and after the game you roll a D6 and on a 1 winner and loser swirch places.
I kind of agree, for me, the assassination victory condition has been a single biggest source of disappointing games of WM. I wouldn't mind seeing it go. Especially as losing the main battlegroup controler is already a crippling blow.
I have my issues with caster kill too, but... this is a truly bizarre way to view it. Your caster is your king. If you lose your caster in WMHDs, you are losing your king in chess. In both games the outcome is the same, regardless of whether or not you played "normally". Theres nothing random about that.
The thing for many critics of casterkill is whether a player who made 50 good moves and one bad (possibly just forgetting something about the opponent 's army) should lose to the other player who made 50 bad moves and was unknowingly given the good one on a silver platter.
That basically never happens - you very rarely make 50 bad moves and then suddenly get the opportunity to nail your opponents caster. The only time anything close to that happens is if your opponents decides to make an assassination run in order to end the game early and fails.
* Mitigate model bloat Being accomplished by all armies in the game essentially being "limited factions" that will not be endlessly expanded
* * Lore based sub factions that does not limit model choice Not sure what this means, the idea of lore based subfactions which don't have any limitations on what you can field within them is completely at odds with itself
* * Increased variety among unit types (example: warjacks for a faction often being redundant due to low variance in stats/game role) well, I think this is fixed with each subfaction only have 5-6 units and 2 warjacks available
* * Implement game modes (like Brawlmachine) and campaigns (like a specific conflict you can play trough that has limited model selection for that campaign) <- both these replaces theme lists Well, theres definitely game modes in mk4, but maybe not the way you meant. Theme lists are entirely gone, and I don't see campaigns happening the way you want them to - very few people outside of historical gamers want to play a narrative campaign where they are restricted to playing only the units that the campaign tells them to play
* * More reason to take multiples of a unit (more FA 3 or higher, cheaper units) This is purely a personal choice, but is mainly driven by game size considerations. WMHDs isn't 40k and nobody really wants it to be, you would have to grow game model count in order for people to justify redundant units over having a more diverse toolbox
* Decrease mechanical complexity The game isn't that mechanically complex, in fact its incredibly simple, everything is simply 2d6+stat vs target number
* * Decrease need for memorization You don't really need to memorize all that much, what you do need to do is learn to ask the right questions to get the information you want from your opponent (really a community issue, too many players are donkey-caves and will only answer the exact question you answer them rather than elaborating
* * * Decrease amount of stats There aren't all that many stats to begin with, theres fewer stats than most games, theres nothing you could eliminate without requiring a complete rewrite of the games core mechanics
* * * Increase standard stats and special abilities your previous bullet point was "decrease amount of stats" - make up your mind, do you want them decreased or increased?
* * * Decrease amount of special abilities and remove as many unique special abilities as possible there aren't all that many unique special abilities in the game, for the most part its just feats - which are supposed to be unique. also, again, your previous bullet point is increase special abilities, now you want to decrease them - make up your mind
* * Remove templates done, templates are thankfully gone
* * Remove model by model activation errr, this was never a thing to begin with. individual models activate as individual models, units activate as uints. This is how its always been.
* Increase tactical complexity the game is already one of the most tactically complex on the market
* * Less hard questions/answers more soft questons/answers (example: Stealth - instead of auto miss make it a boost to defense, loss of line of sight not making you totally untouchable, etcetera) stealth is already a soft question - get within 5" and it doesn't exist. there are plenty of soft questions/answers in the game already (seriously, the majority are soft) and very few "hard" ones. this concern is overstated
* * Scenarios are fine, assassination is fine, retain those mechanics as a win condition. your wish is granted
* * Revamp terrain rules to be more important and designed for 3d terrain <- would also allow you to sell terrain kits we'll see how this goes, but this isn't a rules issue so much as it is a community issue. The rules have been rewritten so that some of the concerns that players had with 3d terrain are less of a factor, but its up to the community to break away from playing with felt and neoprene
* * Less lethality. Some mechanics to allow you to react. Less gotchas. the game is already incredibly non-lethal, this is a big reason for why games of warmachine become a center table scrum, because more often than not clustering together into the center of the table provides various defensive bonuses that help keep models alive
* Remove theme lists already done
* Review and remove old design assumptions. this statement is completely meaningless
* Go trough each faction, define what they are - not according to lore or mechanics but what players think of them. If you want to reboot a faction reboot faction identity first and take care to get it right. similarly nonsensical, warmachine is the game with perhaps the strongest sense of faction identity, there is no need to "define" them further, there is nothing that separates player perception from the way the factions are designed
There is a truly gargauntaun amount of boring, fiddly, completely unnecessary mechanical complexity that could be massively simplified while retaining tactical complexity in warmachine III. You need to memorize thousands of different stats, keyword abilities, special abilities, spells, feats and rules for units just to play against a couple of factions. Warmachine is blatantly excessive in this regard, even for a wargame. This fiddlyness is not limited to stat memorizations either. Model by model activation is another good example. Positioning, facing, declaring and rolling for twenty models one by one is a drag. If you have even more infantry it gets worse. Due to the extreme high lethality in the game you get another big problem with warmachine, the prevalence of gotchas.
They're keeping the themelists in mark 4. It's mentioned earlier in this thread. All the factions are going to split up with a secondary unlimited playmode that is not intended as a default. They're even going with huge 'subfaction starter set'.
Whenever you're talking about caster kill odds you should remember how it works from the other side. In almost every instance you can put your caster somewhere where they are 100% safe. The downside is that they may not be able to contribute as much to the game from those locations. You make the choice to give your opponent a 20% chance of winning the game in order to gain an advantage in other means. Whether or not they go for it often comes down to what other roads to victory are available to them. The more cornered you get your opponent, the more you have to consider whether its a good idea to give them a slim out.
There is a truly gargauntaun amount of boring, fiddly, completely unnecessary mechanical complexity that could be massively simplified while retaining tactical complexity in warmachine III. You need to memorize thousands of different stats, keyword abilities, special abilities, spells, feats and rules for units just to play against a couple of factions. Warmachine is blatantly excessive in this regard, even for a wargame. This fiddlyness is not limited to stat memorizations either. Model by model activation is another good example. Positioning, facing, declaring and rolling for twenty models one by one is a drag. If you have even more infantry it gets worse. Due to the extreme high lethality in the game you get another big problem with warmachine, the prevalence of gotchas.
All of this is grossly overstated. Grievous Wounds is grievous wounds. Iron Flesh is Iron Flesh. You will not find other abilities that do the same exact thing but with different names (unlike 40k). The game is already incredibly well standardized, and the amount of memorization actually needed is exaggerated. If you're getting hit by gotchas its because you have gakky opponents who aren't forthcoming with information (to be fair, thats a large segment of the remaining community for the game) or just aren't asking the right questions to get the information you need. "Whats that models DEF? Do you have any way of increasing it?", should be a standard question every time you play before you make any decision in which you are relying on certain outcomes, ditto ARM, SPD/threat range, MAT/RAT. Likewise, asking your opponent if they have any means for out-of-activation movement/attacks is a fairly simple question, as is the ability to move/reposition/control/knockdown/freeze your models. Those handful of questions will cover 98% of all potential gotchas, no need for memorization needed. Ask the questions up front at the start of the game so you know what you're going into and if you need a reminder ask for clarification as to which model could do whatever. Its not hard.
Likewise your "model by model activation" argument is a bit nonsensical. You activate a warjack, you move it, and you attack, and then you move on to the next one. This is no different than how you move and shoot one model at a time in a game like x-wing or Armada, etc. (except in X-Wing you have to activate each unit twice due to the separate of actions from movement), or for that matter 40k (except, again, done all at once instead of needing to activate the same unit each phase). Now when it comes to units, you aren't activating one model at a time - as you move the entire unit at the same time (just like in 40k), but resolve the attacks individually (just like you would in 40k if you had a unit where every model in the unit was attacking a different target, which is effectively what tends to happen in Warmachine - though many units have combined attack options that allow them to pool their attacks instead of resolving them separately).
They're keeping the themelists in mark 4. It's mentioned earlier in this thread. All the factions are going to split up with a secondary unlimited playmode that is not intended as a default. They're even going with huge 'subfaction starter set'.
Theres a difference between theme lists in mk3 and armies in mk4. There are no theme lists in mk4, instead they have replaced the idea of "playing a faction" with "playing an army" - which is a subtly different concept. For one thing you never have to worry about buying a unit for your army that doesn't work with your theme list ever again, as the armies are self contained and any unit for that army will be playable in it at all times and designed to synergistically operate with the other units in it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LunarSol wrote: Whenever you're talking about caster kill odds you should remember how it works from the other side. In almost every instance you can put your caster somewhere where they are 100% safe. The downside is that they may not be able to contribute as much to the game from those locations. You make the choice to give your opponent a 20% chance of winning the game in order to gain an advantage in other means. Whether or not they go for it often comes down to what other roads to victory are available to them. The more cornered you get your opponent, the more you have to consider whether its a good idea to give them a slim out.
Exactly this. Its a systems of tradeoffs that need to be evaluated and weighed. If your opponent kills your caster, or if you kill your opponents caster, its largely because you chose to prioritize benefits over risks. The exception to that is when you have no idea what you're doing and aren't aware of all of the potential means by which the caster you thought you had protected is actually fully exposed. This is an issue for newer players mainly, but after a few games it isn't hard to wrap your head around (and the elimination of the ability for your opponent to attack their own models in order to open up charge routes, etc. eliminates the main "gotcha" that exists in this regard, as it was previously very easy for an opponent to unjam an assassination route by picking off their own guys).
Well to demonstrate how model by model activation is fiddly look at how it occurs at the table:
10 man pikeman unit (all same weapons, bannerman and leader ignored) - wants to charge.
Unit declares a charge.
Measure for all models that are in range.
Model 1 - Declares target.
Model 1 - Move to engage target.
Model 1 - Change Facing to point at target
Model 2 - Declares target.
Model 2 - Move to engage target.
Model 2 - Change Facing to point at target
Model 3 - Declares target.
Model 3 - Move to engage target.
Model 3 - Change Facing to point at target
Model 4 - Declares target.
Model 4 - Move to engage target.
Model 4 - Change Facing to point at target
Model 5 - Declares target.
Model 5 - Move to engage target.
Model 5 - Change Facing to point at target
Model 6 - Declares target.
Model 6 - Move to engage target.
Model 6 - Change Facing to point at target
Model 7 - Declares target.
Model 7 - Move to engage target.
Model 7 - Change Facing to point at target
Model 8 - Declares target.
Model 8 - Move to engage target.
Model 8 - Change Facing to point at target
Model 9 - Declares target.
Model 9 - Move to engage target.
Model 9 - Change Facing to point at target
Model 10 - Declares target.
Model 10 - Move to engage target.
Model 10 - Change Facing to point at target
After all models have moved one by one.
Model 1 - Rolls to hit
Model 1 - Rolls to damage
Model 2 - Roll to hit.
Model 2 - Roll to damage.
Model 3 - Roll to hit.
Model 3 - Roll to damage.
...
And so on and so on and so on.
Models activates one by one. Units don't declare targets, models do, they don't roll attacks or damage, models do, units don't have facing models do, units don't move as one, models do. It's fiddly.
If it was unit activation:
Unit declares a charge.
Units checks if charge is in range.
Unit moves.
Unit changes facing.
Unit attacks.
Unit rolls damage.
6 steps to resolve instead of 50 steps. Oh yeah if they charge two or three units they have to add... 4 more steps, two for each additional unit.
I don't see what's difficult to understand about warmachine being fiddly. And there'd be nothing wrong with simplifying it. It wouldn't make the game less tactical. You can make immensely tactical game with very simple mechanics.
As for memorization, a single card has 10 basic stats you need to memorize. Then there are keyword abilities, then there are special abilities. The special abilities are almost all unique. Most weapons are to.
You need to do this for every unit in your army.
Also because the game lacks the ability to react mid turn to an opponent when he does something unexpected you need to predict what he'll do at your turn.
This means you also need to memorize this for every unit in his army.
Then you play more than one individual, using more than one army.
And yes, the way people try to handle that is they will constantly ask about threat ranges, defense, special abilities etcetera, because it's simply not possible to memorize all of that stuff. They'll miss some stuff and they get wrecked. And it doesn't have to be like that either, and it's an obvious area for improvement, and it would make the game better if it was improved.
That's only two of the many many reason why the game is in the state it is today. No exaggeration.
Also lol at 'uh they're gonna call themelists something else that means it's different'.
Overread wrote: I think Caster Kill was a problem when the armies got bigger and bigger in MKII and the caster became more and more vulnerable because, as you say, caster kill was normally the breaking point for the game. Either you won outright or the power difference crippled one player at that point.
It's a neat idea, but I feel like after a certain points value the Caster Kill shouldn't happen. Or perhaps they should have introduced a system of a free "demi" caster per X points. So if you kill the main caster you've still lower level ones to keep things functional etc...
Ergo so that caster killing is important, but not the win/lose element.
In Warcaster they removed the caster from the playingfield entirely to get around that
We solved that problem simply by keeping our games 99% of the time (outside of special requests) to 50 points, no steamroller and no theme lists. the game is a skirmish game and should be played as one.
As for memorization, a single card has 10 basic stats you need to memorize. Then there are keyword abilities, then there are special abilities. The special abilities are almost all unique. Most weapons are to.
You need to do this for every unit in your army.
Also because the game lacks the ability to react mid turn to an opponent when he does something unexpected you need to predict what he'll do at your turn.
This means you also need to memorize this for every unit in his army.
Then you play more than one individual, using more than one army.
Sometimes i do not remember what the little symbols mean so i printed out a copy of the master list quick reference sheet to keep with my stuff, otherwise everything else is on the stat card if needed. this is far easier than bringing the pile of books that current GW requires for you to bring and buy to play a game and do not get me started on the pile of strats that each faction have that often have different names for very similar effects.
If it was unit activation:
Unit declares a charge.
Units checks if charge is in range.
Unit moves.
Unit changes facing.
Unit attacks.
Unit rolls damage.
6 steps to resolve instead of 50 steps. Oh yeah if they charge two or three units they have to add... 4 more steps, two for each additional unit.
This is extremely disingenuous and you know it. If you're going to include every little step for WMHDs (really, "change facing to point to target" is a separate step? Everyone just does that as part of their move, and you don't get to list "roll to hit, roll damage" for WMHDs without going through the full attack sequence for what you're comparing it to) you should do the same for a game with unit activation, lets look at 40ks unit activation for example:
Activate unit in movement phase:
Measure distance, then move model A
Measure distance, then move model B
Measure distance, then move model C
Measure distance, then move model D
Measure distance, then move model E
Measure distance, then move model F
Measure distance, then move model G
Measure distance, then move model H
Measure distance, then move model I
Measure distance, then move model J
Activate unit in shooting phase:
Check range and LOS, declare target for model A
Check range and LOS, declare target for model B
Check range and LOS, declare target for model C
Check range and LOS, declare target for model D
Check range and LOS, declare target for model E
Check range and LOS, declare target for model F
Check range and LOS, declare target for model G
Check range and LOS, declare target for model H
Check range and LOS, declare target for model I
Check range and LOS, declare target for model J
Pool attacks for each target, roll them separately
Roll to hit (re-rolling as needed)
Roll to wound (re-rolling as needed)
Opponent rolls saves (re-rolling as needed)
Roll for damage (if applicable, re-rolling as needed)
Opponents rolls disgustingly resilient/feel no paint (if applicable, re-rolling as needed)
Rinse/repeat for each target unit as needed
Activate unit in charge phase:
Declare target for charge
Roll charge distance
Measure distance, then move model A
Measure distance, then move model B
Measure distance, then move model C
Measure distance, then move model D
Measure distance, then move model E
Measure distance, then move model F
Measure distance, then move model G
Measure distance, then move model H
Measure distance, then move model I
Measure distance, then move model J
Activate unit in fight phase:
Check if in fight range and declare target if multiple eligible for model A
Check if in fight range and declare target if multiple eligible for model B
Check if in fight range and declare target if multiple eligible for model C
Check if in fight range and declare target if multiple eligible for model D
Check if in fight range and declare target if multiple eligible for model E
Check if in fight range and declare target if multiple eligible for model F
Check if in fight range and declare target if multiple eligible for model G
Check if in fight range and declare target if multiple eligible for model H
Check if in fight range and declare target if multiple eligible for model I
Check if in fight range and declare target if multiple eligible for model J
Pool attacks for each target, roll them separately
Roll to hit (re-rolling as needed)
Roll to wound (re-rolling as needed)
Opponent rolls saves (re-rolling as needed)
Roll for damage (if applicable, re-rolling as needed)
Opponents rolls disgustingly resilient/feel no paint (if applicable, re-rolling as needed)
Rinse/repeat for each target as needed
Activate unit in Morale Phase, roll if needed to see if unit breaks, remove casualties if failed, roll attrition if failed, remove more casualties if needed
That looks way more fiddly to me. Especially once you realize the new edition has eliminated facings and completely reprogrammed movement and charging. Big hint - the entire unit declares a charge against a single enemy model/unit, only the first model is actually moved, the other models in the unit are placed within 2" of it and only get the charge bonus if they direct their attacks against a model/unit that the first model is in melee with - and units are now 3 or 5 models (plus attachements) instead of 10). So now the sequence is:
Unit declares a charge
Measure distance and move model A
Place model B within 2" of model A
Place model C within 2" of model A
Place model D within 2" of model A (if needed)
Place model E within 2" of model A (if needed)
Place model F within 2" of model A (if needed)
Model A -Roll to hit
Model A - Roll damage
Model B - Roll to hit
Model B - Roll damage
Model C - Roll to hit
Model C - Roll damage
Model D - Roll to hit (if needed)
Model D - Roll damage (if needed)
Model E - Roll to hit (if needed)
Model E - Roll damage (if needed)
Model F - Roll to hit (if needed)
Model F - Roll damage (if needed)
Oh look how much shorter that actually is. Even if you add in extra attacks for each model, it still works out ot be shorter, less fiddly, and more streamlined than the 40k process.
I don't see what's difficult to understand about warmachine being fiddly. And there'd be nothing wrong with simplifying it. It wouldn't make the game less tactical. You can make immensely tactical game with very simple mechanics.
Because its a false premise that isn't actually supported by reality, as I just demonstrated. Over 60 steps to describe the sequence of steps for a unit in 40k with its unit based activation, only 18 to describe nuMachine (even if there were the same number of models in the warmachine unit, nuMachine would still be half as many steps as 40k).
As for memorization, a single card has 10 basic stats you need to memorize. Then there are keyword abilities, then there are special abilities. The special abilities are almost all unique. Most weapons are to.
You need to do this for every unit in your army.
Not sure where you're getting 10 basic stats that you need to memorize - SPD, STR, MAT, RAT, DEF, ARM, CMD are it. Even if you add the additional stats for nuMachine (AAT, ARC, CTRL, which only some models have. CMD and STR have thats been removed entirely, so that situationally gets you to 8 max, but only 5 for most models, plus the base size which you absolutely don't need to memorize for obvious reasons). Lets compare to 40k though - M, WS, BS, S, T, W, A, LD, SV = thats 9 right off the bat, more than WMHDs has or had. To this you can also add invul saves - which should be on the datasheet but are only ever represented via wargear, except for daemons for some reason, and also in the case of some models bracket degredation, and then theres also psychic power casts and denies which should likewise be in the datasheet but are stuck in abilities text instead. And then there are the important keyword bits that you need to track (infantry vs monstroust creature vs vehicle vs beast, etc. being the most important) which add even more.
Speaking of abilities, do you like two abilities that do the exact same thing but with different names? How about two abilities with the exact same name that do different thigns? Because thats the reality in 40k (though thankfully recent faq/errata has fixed a lot of that). Either way, most units have a list of 2-3 abilities (sometimes more) that aren't even explained on their datasheet that you have to refer to a different section of the rulebook to read the text of, on top of another 2-3 (sometimes 6-7) separate special rules and abilities that might have anywhere from a sentence to a 3 paragraph explanation of how to use. WMHDs is much more manageable by comparison.
While I'm at it - how do you feel about 40k requiring a paragraph of text per datasheet to explain a models psychic abilities vs warmachine just giving you the relevant stats for the magic and a quick one sentence explanation of what each spell does? Right on the card, so you don't even have to memorize it (hell, you don't really have to memorize *anything* in warmachine because you have the cards right in front of you, no need to flip back and forth through your codex or refer back to other rulebooks for all the stuff your army can do that is printed elsewhere). In 40k you (once again) need to go to a different section of the book to read the 2 paragraph explanation of how each psychic power works.
And don't get me started on the 30+ strategems per codex...
Oh and back to units, lets look at weapons, 40k profile - Range, Type, ROF, S, AP, Damage, Abilities. WMHDs profile - RNG, ROF, AOE, POW (+ Abilities if applicable), melee weapons reduce this to RNG, POW, and P+S. Numachine has simplified this further to eliminate the P+S stat from melee weapons.
Also because the game lacks the ability to react mid turn to an opponent when he does something unexpected you need to predict what he'll do at your turn.
This means you also need to memorize this for every unit in his army.
Then you play more than one individual, using more than one army.
I must have missed all that mid-turn reaction I get to do in 40k when my opponent does something unexpected. Most games out there, especially the ones that you would likely believe to be less fiddly and more streamlined, don't feature any sort of mid-turn reaction and are simply "stand and wait while your opponent does his thing, then do it in reverse".
And no, you don't need to memorize your opponents entire army any more than you do in 40k or any other game. This is and always has been absolute bs as an argument.
And yes, the way people try to handle that is they will constantly ask about threat ranges, defense, special abilities etcetera, because it's simply not possible to memorize all of that stuff. They'll miss some stuff and they get wrecked. And it doesn't have to be like that either, and it's an obvious area for improvement, and it would make the game better if it was improved.
That's only two of the many many reason why the game is in the state it is today. No exaggeration.
Its not possible to memorize every strategem in 40k, nor every subfaction ability (especially once various codex build-you-own subfaction systems are introduced), nor every psychic power, warlord trait, relic, unit profile, weapon, etc. There are significantly more datasheets and rules in 40k then there are in WMHDs, and those datasheets and rules contain way more information on them just in terms of basic stats, even before you begin to account for all the additional rules sources like strats and relics. If 40k, with all of that, is the most popular game on the planet despite all of that then ipso facto "fiddliness" and "complexity" are not the reason for WMHDs being in a gutter.
Also lol at 'uh they're gonna call themelists something else that means it's different'.
Theres a huge difference in oldmachine theme lists vs numachine armies and its disingenous (once again) to pretend otherwise. The most obvious point is that theme lists came with inherent advantages and benefits, be it additional abilities and benefits granted to your units by the theme, free bonus models/units that you could add to your army at no additional cost, or out-of-faction models that you could bring in that would unlock synergies and capabilities that you wouldn't have access to otherwise. This is the reason why theme lists were basically played almost exclusively and as a result alienated so many people who wanted to play, say, Man O Wars + Doom Reavers (two sets of models that ostensibly can be played together by virtue of the fact that they are both part of the same army) but couldn't because doing so would break theme and put you at a disadvantage vs your opponent.
All of that is gone now and your army in nuMachine is just your army, no free bonus models, no additional advantages or benefits to be had, etc. You get what you pay for and nothing else. You probably still can't run Man O Wars + Doom Reavers (unless they release a cadre for one of those), but thats okay because Man O Wars and Doom Reavers are no longer being sold to you as compatible products that fight alongside one another - in much the same way that Astartes and Sisters of Battle are not being marketed to you that way either despite both being "Imperium".
The issue is if your problem with theme lists is at a conceptual level, the nuanced differences between them and mk4 armies don't really change what you're taking issue. They ARE different, but they're also the same, and in this case people are arguing that the aspects that are the same are the aspects they take issue with.
This is extremely disingenuous and you know it. If you're going to include every little step for WMHDs (really, "change facing to point to target" is a separate step? Everyone just does that as part of their move, and you don't get to list "roll to hit, roll damage" for WMHDs without going through the full attack sequence for what you're comparing it to) you should do the same for a game with unit activation, lets look at 40ks unit activation for example:
The only real problem with massed combat in WARMACHINE is that it's difficult to roll all the attacks at once, unless a player has ten sets of differently-coloured dice pairs. 2d6 for every roll is no problem when it's casters and a few jacks facing off, but blobs of infantry can be slow and fiddly.
Yea, but that doesn't mean that the conceptual issue is necessarily valid. The conceptual issue people have with theme lists principally boils down to the idea of "these guys both fight for the same nation, so I should be able to field them together", but they only really think that way by virtue of the fact that they used to be able to do so but can not do so any longer.
You see the same dynamic in 40k - "why are my chaos daemons a separate army from my chaos space marines, they should be together like they used to be" - but you don't see people make the same argument about imperial knights, despite the fictional relationship between those forces being basically identical to that of daemons and CSM. Why? Because Chaos Knights were never part of CSM the way daemons were.
You see the same on the Imperium side - people will bitch and moan about Inquisitors and "Imperial Agents" not being fieldable as part of guard/space marine factions the way they used to be - but you don't see people argue about Imperial Knights, Sisters, Imperial Guard, Space Marines, and Custodes all being separate factions. Why? Because they never were in the first place.
To me, it really seems more that the problem is really the perception that something was
"taken away" from players by changing it from what it was before, rather than an actual legitimate concern or issue based on an inherent concern. In other words, if the game had launched from the very beginning with the theme/army concept and players were locked into Man O Wars or Doom Reavers as separate armies from the very start, I very much doubt anyone at all would care or complain about it, in much the same way that nobody complains about Space Marines and Guard being different armies in 40k.
You see the same dynamic in 40k - "why are my chaos daemons a separate army from my chaos space marines, they should be together like they used to be" - but you don't see people make the same argument about knights, despite the fictional relationship between those forces being basically identical to that of daemons and CSM. Why? Because Chaos Knights were never part of CSM the way daemons were.
But they both have rules for being fielded together with CSM lmao
I'm not really arguing with you. I see it the same way and I suspect people will have more issue with legacy armies than new for the same perception based reasons. I just understand why explaining where they're different isn't going to really matter to people who are opposed to faction segregation on principle. It's just a different preference of list building that mostly comes down to a preference thing.
FWIW, I want my 8th edition Sister/DW/Grey Knight army to work again
This is extremely disingenuous and you know it. If you're going to include every little step for WMHDs (really, "change facing to point to target" is a separate step? Everyone just does that as part of their move, and you don't get to list "roll to hit, roll damage" for WMHDs without going through the full attack sequence for what you're comparing it to) you should do the same for a game with unit activation, lets look at 40ks unit activation for example:
The only real problem with massed combat in WARMACHINE is that it's difficult to roll all the attacks at once, unless a player has ten sets of differently-coloured dice pairs. 2d6 for every roll is no problem when it's casters and a few jacks facing off, but blobs of infantry can be slow and fiddly.
Counterpoint: CMA and CRA exist, although admittedly they are only circumstantially useful (i.e. they aren't something you would want to use as a general attack by default into another unit for infantry). Another counterpoint, rolling to hit/dmg model by model generally moves a lot faster than the 40k buckets of dice approach where you need to hit, wound, save, roll damage, roll FNP, especially once you factor in re-rolls in the process). In my experience, the time it takes to process a unit of 10 models resolving one individual attack per model is roughly the same as processing a unit of 10 models in 40k chucking 20 dice for a rapid fire/assault 2/heavy 2, etc. type weapon. Just grabbing two dice, dropping them, adding the numbers together, grabbing them, dropping them again and adding the numbers together moves fast vs counting out 20+ dice, rolling them, picking out all the failures/successes, rerolling as needed, picking out the successes/failures again, rolling the successes, picking out all the failures/successes, rerolling as needed, picking out the successes/failures again, then counting them up so your opponent can pick up the appropriate number of dice, roll them, pick out failures/successes, reroll as needed, pick out failures/successes again, count them up and then tell you how many go through, so that you can potentially roll damage, reroll as needed communicate the damage dealt to your opponent so they can then apply damage one-by-one, potentially rolling FNPs with rerolls as needed to determine what model takes how many wounds, etc.. It only gets a little slower in WMHDs if your opponent is marking boxes/you're rolling hit locations (or if they need to make tough checks, etc.).
You see the same dynamic in 40k - "why are my chaos daemons a separate army from my chaos space marines, they should be together like they used to be" - but you don't see people make the same argument about knights, despite the fictional relationship between those forces being basically identical to that of daemons and CSM. Why? Because Chaos Knights were never part of CSM the way daemons were.
But they both have rules for being fielded together with CSM lmao
CSM/Daemons/Chaos Knights do. Aside from Imperial Knights, you don't really have that same flexibility on the Imperium side of the house (and I suspect the flexibility with daemons is only really there for legacy perception based reasons). Even still, just because you can mix the chaos factions doesn't necessarily mean you should/will want to (basically for the same reason you wouldn't want to run a WMHDs list out of theme) - I was very excited to run a trio of wardogs with my Thousand Sons, but in practice it turned out to be worse than just running pure TSons, the capability I gained did not make up for the amount of cabal points I lost by dropping ~450 points of TSons from my list. Likewise, I'm not really seeing daemons being able to bring anything to the table that would make them worthwhile in a CSM list - most of the capabilities that you would want from daemons are locked behind warp storm points and strats you can't use in an allied force, and when it comes to chaos knights in a CSM list, paying half of your starting CP for the privelege of running soup is something most people seem to agree is not a recipe for success.
I had to quote this bit because to me it’s really telling and obvious of what make WM an overly and unnecessarily complex game:
“… the amount of memorization actually needed is exaggerated. If you're getting hit by gotchas its because you have gakky opponents who aren't forthcoming with information (to be fair, thats a large segment of the remaining community for the game) or just aren't asking the right questions to get the information you need. "Whats that models DEF? Do you have any way of increasing it?", should be a standard question every time you play before you make any decision in which you are relying on certain outcomes, ditto ARM, SPD/threat range, MAT/RAT. Likewise, asking your opponent if they have any means for out-of-activation movement/attacks is a fairly simple question, as is the ability to move/reposition/control/knockdown/freeze your models. ”
Do you have any idea how long it would take to play a game when one has to ask these same questions almost every turn, for almost every model or unit?
This alone extends the turn by a factor of 10, easily. I don’t know about anyone else, but if I have to ask those questions as often as they need to be asked, I’d rather just play something else that doesn’t require as much memorizing or complexity.
If we’re playing with 5-10 models a side, this kind of complexity is fine. But with a potential 25-30 models or more? Crazy waste of time.
Ghool wrote: If we’re playing with 5-10 models a side, this kind of complexity is fine. But with a potential 25-30 models or more? Crazy waste of time.
Well, Warmachine is a skirmish game, so most forces should be less than 20 models. If anyone is playing games at a level where there are more than 20 models, I think the game isn't the one at fault there.
Looking at my 20pts forces they have the following models.
But is this really different from 40k, where a normal army has 50-100 models, with unique rules, abilities, stratagems? And with 20+ factions. Or from malifaux, where you have tons of keywords. I think this is just a feature of complex wargames.
to clear up some thoughts from other people and to offer some changes that i think work really well.
- Mk4 had done away with facing
- Units sizes look to be cut in half
- I haven't played in 8 years..and ..still remembered most of the icons pretty easily
- The only gotcha that happened in my game was when I charged my opponent without asking about what they could do. And that was on me.
Admittedly..if you already hate warmachine's core rules set..then your not gonna like this one either. But in that case, start with "I don't like warmachine" so people know not to try to bother arguing the case.
Do you have any idea how long it would take to play a game when one has to ask these same questions almost every turn, for almost every model or unit?
Ages, I'm sure, like it does with almost every time one plays a new game or editions with fundamental changes.
But I'm not a goldfish, and even if I don't remember the precise numbers from game to game, even turn to turn sometimes, you can bet I'll remember "that's the unit with the nasty charge reaction" or " that's the unit that has a high health pool" pretty quickly.
To criticise any game, in this context, of having a lot of information you need to remember to play the game well is frankly absurd.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and let's not overlook that all relevant game information for WMH is readily available and not gated behind the purchase of multiple books, and I haven't heard anything about that changing?
Do you have any idea how long it would take to play a game when one has to ask these same questions almost every turn, for almost every model or unit?
Ages, I'm sure, like it does with almost every time one plays a new game or editions with fundamental changes.
But I'm not a goldfish, and even if I don't remember the precise numbers from game to game, even turn to turn sometimes, you can bet I'll remember "that's the unit with the nasty charge reaction" or " that's the unit that has a high health pool" pretty quickly.
To criticise any game, in this context, of having a lot of information you need to remember to play the game well is frankly absurd.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and let's not overlook that all relevant game information for WMH is readily available and not gated behind the purchase of multiple books, and I haven't heard anything about that changing?
I’ve never played 40k or any GW army game for that matter.
My first ‘official’ wargame was Warmachine.
So I have no context to apply to that complexity comparison.
I have a really good memory, far from a goldfish at least, and I had a hard time recalling all the needed information regarding models. Toss in the CID and that made trying to memorizing a lot pretty tough.
I want games to be fun, and I want most of that time to be spent actually playing. I don’t need my war games to be so complex that I need to literally study rules daily to keep up, or even win.
Maybe I’m just getting old, but honestly I don’t have time for that gak.
But regardless of all that, I still like Warmachine. I ran weekly events. Weekly painting days. I PGd and organized everything PP at my LGS for the three years I worked there, and for two more afterwards.
Knowing g the game was practically a full time job.
The current MK4 official event army size is 100 points, and by a rough count, I’m looking at around 30 models, or about a dozen cards or more on the table. That is a lot of info to parse during a game is you don’t know anything about the other persons army. Regardless, I’m still holding out hope for battle boxes to work their way into a regular release.
That said, complexity is not the biggest hurdle WM needs to overcome - it’s the price of entry.
Complexity wise for Warmachine I was ok with, in mk2 you got a card with every unit for quick reference during the game.
But in mk4 PP aren’t selling models with unit cards anymore, so basically you’re screwed without massive scrolling on a tablet. Another step backwards.
MaxT wrote: Complexity wise for Warmachine I was ok with, in mk2 you got a card with every unit for quick reference during the game.
But in mk4 PP aren’t selling models with unit cards anymore, so basically you’re screwed without massive scrolling on a tablet. Another step backwards.
Respectfully disagree on this one. Warmachine mk3's warroom was very well laid out. Finding your card was easy and clear. A phone screen is about the same size as a card and if you needed to look on the back you tapped a button and the card flipped over. I never needed to scroll or had trouble finding my card. and..if they updated it was automatically done, no faqs or new books needed. Plus I cold record damage on jacks and multi-wound models without tokens or dry erase markers. I didnt have to worry about carry my cards around or protecting them.
The app was a huge leap forward and not a step back at all.
Speaking as a Guild Ball player, where cards ceased to be a thing long before Steamforged stopped supporting it, and unsurprisingly aren't a thing now the community is keeping it going, PDFs are a thing, printers are cheap and so are laminators.
The upsides of removing the costs and latency of including cards far outweigh any downsides.
MaxT wrote: Complexity wise for Warmachine I was ok with, in mk2 you got a card with every unit for quick reference during the game.
But in mk4 PP aren’t selling models with unit cards anymore, so basically you’re screwed without massive scrolling on a tablet. Another step backwards.
Respectfully disagree on this one. Warmachine mk3's warroom was very well laid out. Finding your card was easy and clear. A phone screen is about the same size as a card and if you needed to look on the back you tapped a button and the card flipped over. I never needed to scroll or had trouble finding my card. and..if they updated it was automatically done, no faqs or new books needed. Plus I cold record damage on jacks and multi-wound models without tokens or dry erase markers. I didnt have to worry about carry my cards around or protecting them.
The app was a huge leap forward and not a step back at all.
The new app will allow one to print off the cards anyways. So there is that.
I like the cards too, and War Room was expensive. I’m glad the new app is going to be free and allow one to print the physical cards if we want. For a tactile wargame, I prefer all my bits to be tactile.
We spend too much time on our phones as it is. I’d rather get away from it than have it out while I’m playing a physical game. That said, Return to Dark Tower is on a whole new level….so I guess it can’t be all bad.
MaxT wrote: Complexity wise for Warmachine I was ok with, in mk2 you got a card with every unit for quick reference during the game.
But in mk4 PP aren’t selling models with unit cards anymore, so basically you’re screwed without massive scrolling on a tablet. Another step backwards.
Respectfully disagree on this one. Warmachine mk3's warroom was very well laid out. Finding your card was easy and clear. A phone screen is about the same size as a card and if you needed to look on the back you tapped a button and the card flipped over. I never needed to scroll or had trouble finding my card. and..if they updated it was automatically done, no faqs or new books needed. Plus I cold record damage on jacks and multi-wound models without tokens or dry erase markers. I didnt have to worry about carry my cards around or protecting them.
The app was a huge leap forward and not a step back at all.
The new app will allow one to print off the cards anyways. So there is that.
I like the cards too, and War Room was expensive. I’m glad the new app is going to be free and allow one to print the physical cards if we want. For a tactile wargame, I prefer all my bits to be tactile.
We spend too much time on our phones as it is. I’d rather get away from it than have it out while I’m playing a physical game. That said, Return to Dark Tower is on a whole new level….so I guess it can’t be all bad.
Having the entire game rules be free is a great way to let people see what it is before commiting any money to it. Which is a good thing.
Making the cards printable from the app is also a very handy thing. I agree with you 100% about gaming to get away from the digital world, and back to a tactile experience. Also cards are handy to just pass to my opponent if they want to read any rules.
I have had an opponent waste so much time in game flipping between the app cards since you could only look at one a time, had their tablet lose power, and other technical issues.
Not having access to a printed product or card would have been a massive "nope" for me. Still going to let the dust settle before trying to convince my group who quit to give it another shot.
They have been having an absolute blast with Warhammer Underworlds though, so have a feeling that is going to be tough.
chaos0xomega wrote: Yea, but that doesn't mean that the conceptual issue is necessarily valid. The conceptual issue people have with theme lists principally boils down to the idea of "these guys both fight for the same nation, so I should be able to field them together", but they only really think that way by virtue of the fact that they used to be able to do so but can not do so any longer.
You see the same dynamic in 40k - "why are my chaos daemons a separate army from my chaos space marines, they should be together like they used to be" - but you don't see people make the same argument about imperial knights, despite the fictional relationship between those forces being basically identical to that of daemons and CSM. Why? Because Chaos Knights were never part of CSM the way daemons were.
You see the same on the Imperium side - people will bitch and moan about Inquisitors and "Imperial Agents" not being fieldable as part of guard/space marine factions the way they used to be - but you don't see people argue about Imperial Knights, Sisters, Imperial Guard, Space Marines, and Custodes all being separate factions. Why? Because they never were in the first place.
To me, it really seems more that the problem is really the perception that something was
"taken away" from players by changing it from what it was before, rather than an actual legitimate concern or issue based on an inherent concern. In other words, if the game had launched from the very beginning with the theme/army concept and players were locked into Man O Wars or Doom Reavers as separate armies from the very start, I very much doubt anyone at all would care or complain about it, in much the same way that nobody complains about Space Marines and Guard being different armies in 40k.
This is more like "why can't my assault intercessors fight together with phobos infiltrators"?
Both are space marines. Why couldn't they fight together?
NH Gunsmith wrote:I have had an opponent waste so much time in game flipping between the app cards since you could only look at one a time, had their tablet lose power, and other technical issues.
Not having access to a printed product or card would have been a massive "nope" for me. Still going to let the dust settle before trying to convince my group who quit to give it another shot.
They have been having an absolute blast with Warhammer Underworlds though, so have a feeling that is going to be tough.
Indeed, i have the same issue with people using apps for classic battletech as well as WM/H. a set of record sheets in page protectors or a sleeve of PP cards and a dry erase marker are incredibly easy and efficient
TwilightSparkles wrote:Removing cards hasn’t helped costs for players though ? The mark iv models are more expensive than ever.
In a vacuum? We already went through this in the thread. depending on where you are at in the world it is either comparatively super expensive or actually more reasonable for what you are getting. considering the model count/type and number needed to play an actual full game.
Regarding the price of entry into Mk4, you can still buy the mk3 battle boxes and the 2p starter set. They are still available, are very cheap and from my understanding prime legal.
Ghool wrote: I had to quote this bit because to me it’s really telling and obvious of what make WM an overly and unnecessarily complex game:
“… the amount of memorization actually needed is exaggerated. If you're getting hit by gotchas its because you have gakky opponents who aren't forthcoming with information (to be fair, thats a large segment of the remaining community for the game) or just aren't asking the right questions to get the information you need. "Whats that models DEF? Do you have any way of increasing it?", should be a standard question every time you play before you make any decision in which you are relying on certain outcomes, ditto ARM, SPD/threat range, MAT/RAT. Likewise, asking your opponent if they have any means for out-of-activation movement/attacks is a fairly simple question, as is the ability to move/reposition/control/knockdown/freeze your models. ”
Do you have any idea how long it would take to play a game when one has to ask these same questions almost every turn, for almost every model or unit?
This alone extends the turn by a factor of 10, easily. I don’t know about anyone else, but if I have to ask those questions as often as they need to be asked, I’d rather just play something else that doesn’t require as much memorizing or complexity.
If we’re playing with 5-10 models a side, this kind of complexity is fine. But with a potential 25-30 models or more? Crazy waste of time.
Maybe quote the rest of that paragraph:
"Ask the questions up front at the start of the game so you know what you're going into and if you need a reminder ask for clarification as to which model could do whatever. Its not hard."
You don't need to ask the question every turn unless you have the memory of a goldfish and can't remember something basic like "guy with spear does x, guy with hat lets guy with spear do y". You're on a 40k forum. These are the same types of questions most 40k players will ask during the course of the game, if you're not asking them during a game of 40k, then you probably don't need to ask them in a game of warmachine. If you are asking them during 40k, then you probably also will need to ask them during a game of warmachine. Theres not that big a difference between the two games in that regard, except that warmachine summarizes the rules far better than 40k does and there are fewer steps of resolution in which such rules become relevant owing to how much simpler the resolution mechanics in warmachine actually are.
emanuelb wrote: But is this really different from 40k, where a normal army has 50-100 models, with unique rules, abilities, stratagems? And with 20+ factions. Or from malifaux, where you have tons of keywords. I think this is just a feature of complex wargames.
Yes, the people complaining about warmachine being too complex or whatever won't bat an eye about the ridiculous rules and model bloat found in 40k, nor will they stop and consider how much more complex and complicated it is to do basically anything in 40k relative to WMHDs. The entire line of argument coming from people who are primarily 40k players is absolute hypocrisy.
Admittedly..if you already hate warmachine's core rules set..then your not gonna like this one either. But in that case, start with "I don't like warmachine" so people know not to try to bother arguing the case.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and let's not overlook that all relevant game information for WMH is readily available and not gated behind the purchase of multiple books, and I haven't heard anything about that changing?
It is changing for the better - they announced all stat cards and rules will be free going forward via the app (whereas currently you need to pay for the cards in the app, otherwise you can download the cards free via their site but they aren't sorted/searchable, etc.)
I’ve never played 40k or any GW army game for that matter.
Then how/why are you even here???
My first ‘official’ wargame was Warmachine.
So I have no context to apply to that complexity comparison.
I have a really good memory, far from a goldfish at least, and I had a hard time recalling all the needed information regarding models. Toss in the CID and that made trying to memorizing a lot pretty tough.
I want games to be fun, and I want most of that time to be spent actually playing. I don’t need my war games to be so complex that I need to literally study rules daily to keep up, or even win.
Not every game is for every person. If its not to your enjoyment - don't play. I sat out most of Mk3 (bout 5 or 6 years now) and only occasionally kept tabs on updates to the game, etc. I can still recall what basically every one of the symbols on a Warmachine card means and how it works, as well as how many of the named abilities function (Blind causes -4MAT/DEF, can't make ranged or magic attacks, can't run/charge/slam trample; Grievous Wounds removes tough and prevents healing for one round; Iron Flesh is +2ARM and blast resistance (used to be +3DEF and -1SPD), etc. etc. et.). I wouldn't consider my memory to be particularly notable by any means, but if you play enough with some regularity you pick these things up and make them muscle memory, and once you do its not something you should forget easily.
The current MK4 official event army size is 100 points
No its not. Thats the max official army size, but not the size that Privateer Press will be promoting for competitive play going forward.
But in mk4 PP aren’t selling models with unit cards anymore, so basically you’re screwed without massive scrolling on a tablet. Another step backwards.
Theres really not much scrolling involved if the next iteration of the app is anything like War Room.
NH Gunsmith wrote:I have had an opponent waste so much time in game flipping between the app cards since you could only look at one a time, had their tablet lose power, and other technical issues.
Not having access to a printed product or card would have been a massive "nope" for me. Still going to let the dust settle before trying to convince my group who quit to give it another shot.
They have been having an absolute blast with Warhammer Underworlds though, so have a feeling that is going to be tough.
Indeed, i have the same issue with people using apps for classic battletech as well as WM/H. a set of record sheets in page protectors or a sleeve of PP cards and a dry erase marker are incredibly easy and efficient
#doubt. record sheets in page protectors take up a lot of table real estate, as do cards if you're like most players and have to lay them out across the table for quick reference. an electronic device consolidates this down into a much smaller footprint, and I never have to shuffle through a stack of paper/cards trying to find the one I'm looking for because I stacked them out of order or misplaced one (most notoriously a problem with colossals/gargantuans and warcasters/warlocks which had 2 cards each), nor have I ever had to deal with one of those brainfart moments where I'm looking for a card and can't find it even though I'm staring right at it because its turned upside down to show the back of it and my brain blanks it out of existence as it searches frantically for a card front that matches its memory of what the card should look like - in the app you just look for the name of the unit you want (sorted alphabetically of course) and you click it - its that simple.
emanuelb wrote: Regarding the price of entry into Mk4, you can still buy the mk3 battle boxes and the 2p starter set. They are still available, are very cheap and from my understanding prime legal.
Thats not really helpful as those units/casters are only Prime Legal within the legacy armies, the models for which are being discontinued and phased out of production permanently (in some cases minis for certain models/units are already no longer available). On that note the starter boxes are out of production as are the battleboxes - PP only has stock of the Cygnar and Protectorate boxes left and the others are getting harder to find via other sources.
This is not an entry point into the game for a new player. Likewise, there is no guarantee made anywhere that the contents of these boxes will be available for play in Prime legacy armies - the Cryx box is playable within the Bane army that was previewed, but the Menoth one is not (Malekus is not in the Exemplar army unless he ends up being their third caster, otherwise he'd have to be in whatever the other Menoth legacy army is). Likewisie the Castigator is not included in the Exemplar army, but the Revenger and Repenter are.
No, but as dakka is principally a 40k forum its odd for someone who doesn't play to make their home here - especially when what seems to be their "primary game" (WMHDs) barely gets posted about (12 threads in the Privateer Press board last year, 14 this year).
Why am I even here?
Because it’s an active miniatures wargaming community forum with painters, and gamers talking about the stuff.
Just because it’s primarily a GW focused forum does not mean that discussion of other games doesn’t happen here. Just take a look at how many pages this thread is.
And for the record, GW makes a lot of other games besides 40k or AoS, and I even bought and played some of those.
I’ve been coming here for over 11 years and been playing GW board games and skirmish games for over 30 years. That enough of a reason for you?
But I really don’t see why that matters or why it needs to be even brought up in a thread about Warmachine? I figured the why I’m here should be fairly obvious. But some folks are more myopic than others I suppose….
The fact that you’re asking me even to justify why I’m here feels like you’re just looking to argue.
No need to be an asshat my friend.
emanuelb wrote: Regarding the price of entry into Mk4, you can still buy the mk3 battle boxes and the 2p starter set. They are still available, are very cheap and from my understanding prime legal.
They're also the whole reason why they switched to the new method.
But I really don’t see why that matters or why it needs to be even brought up in a thread about Warmachine?
Because lacking experience in other games in the same niche as Warmachine immediately undermines the credibility of any criticisms you make.
When you say
WM (is) an overly and unnecessarily complex game
but then explain how you've never actually played any other comparable games, you can surely see how that comes across.
Warmachine is a complex game, it's difficult to see how one could argue otherwise. To make the case it's overly complex is much harder when compared to its contemporaries, which is a perspective you apparently don't possess. Although it is easy to see how you arrived there given your stated experience.
But I really don’t see why that matters or why it needs to be even brought up in a thread about Warmachine?
Because lacking experience in other games in the same niche as Warmachine immediately undermines the credibility of any criticisms you make.
When you say
WM (is) an overly and unnecessarily complex game
but then explain how you've never actually played any other comparable games, you can surely see how that comes across.
Warmachine is a complex game, it's difficult to see how one could argue otherwise. To make the case it's overly complex is much harder when compared to its contemporaries, which is a perspective you apparently don't possess. Although it is easy to see how you arrived there given your stated experience.
So, the fact that I e been playing games for longer than most that visit this forum have even been alive counts for nothing then I suppose? Or that I worked in an LGS for three years?
Jesus you people really need to stop jumping to conclusions about folks and their related experience.
And besides, who gives a gak?
All of a sudden I’m not qualified to comment on the complexity of a game because I haven’t play TWO other games that are as complex? I have played other complex games, just not those TWO games.
High school indeed. *eyeroll*
No need to worry about any more comments from me. I don’t need to justify and defend my experiences to a bunch of kids that have no idea how to have a civil discussion.
I missed part of this, but add me to the group of people who doesn't play 40K, but plays PP games primarily now (and Malifaux, and the AMG games, and Advanced Squad Leader, etc etc).
I'm here because it's a big forum where people talk about all sorts of miniature games. Yeah, it's a lot of 40K talk. No shock, 40K is the main mini-game seller.
They were really only a unit before for wound tracking purposes.
Great looking resculpts. Still not feeling "new" to me, but its not like I'd want to get rid of what makes Khador iconic, just excited to see some of the new stuff.
There were some fiddly bits with Take Up and such, which made artillery a bit more resilient than just a solo like this one, but tbh there is no particular reason to do it the old way. Being a solo it will suffer somewhat in the movement department compared to the 1+1/2 artillery units, but with RNG14 it is not like these guys are going to move a lot after the initial turn run anyway.
While I remain miffed about the lack of an army for my predominantly Ordic / Llaelese models, I somewhat forgive PP because there will be a new Alexia model to buy!
I've read from various sources that they are getting the orders out to people who ordered one box, and the people who ordered more than one are a bit delayed. No idea if that was official, but seemed to be all over Facebook and Discord.
I ordered all three, so no, I haven't seen mine yet :(
Asmoridin wrote: I've read from various sources that they are getting the orders out to people who ordered one box, and the people who ordered more than one are a bit delayed. No idea if that was official, but seemed to be all over Facebook and Discord.
I ordered all three, so no, I haven't seen mine yet :(
I've got a friend who ordered Orgoth/Cygnar and has it, but yeah, they're definitely not done shipping them out.
“Cadres will include battle engines, colossals, and gargantuans, as well as a small menu of other models. We will be introducing the first MKIV Cadres in late 2023.
Legacy Factions in the MKIV Prime Arena will also include Cadres of models that can be shared between their armies. Each Legacy Faction will include roughly five Cadre offerings that will be shared between their two Prime Arena armies consisting mostly of the Faction’s battle engines, colossals, gargantuans, and primary support models.
As an example, the Legacy Legion of Everblight Faction will include the Spawning Vessel, Blighted Nyss Shepherd, and the Succubus as Cadre models that can be shared between the Faction’s two armies. Once we introduce battle engines and gargantuans, the Throne of Everblight and the Archangel will be added to their Cadre offerings.”
“Mercenaries, on the other hand, are models that can be included in multiple MKIV armies. Each army that a Mercenary can work for will be included in the Mercenary model’s profile. However, just because a Mercenary can be included in a particular army doesn’t mean that Mercenary can be included in every army belonging to a specific Faction.
For example, Alexia, Queen of the Damned, can be included in forces with the Cygnar Storm Legion or Khador Winter Korps armies. However, this does not mean that Alexia can be included in the Khador Lords of Umbrey army. Mercenaries are army-specific, not Faction-specific. The armies that Mercenaries can be included with may update over time as new armies are introduced.”
I read that and went "Wait, what? Did I just read the same thing twice?" and then I recalled having the exact same experience when reading the rules for every previous edition of Warmachine. Exacting clarity to the point of obscurity
Still, it's nice to know that even if I agree to buy into a new Mk4 Warmachine army, my money is no good to PP as a filthy mercs player. Time to go team red or team blue (or team off white?).. or go home.
'We took this approach to simplify army construction and development going forward. With a focus on smaller armies, rather than building out Factions as a whole, tailoring Mercenaries to specific armies reinforces the design goals for MKIV.'
I agree that this needed to happen, the unit and solo bloat was just too much for the game. What we ended up seeing were a lot of lines being blurred between differnt units and solos.
That being said, I am still not sure this is the best way to go about it. I think sticking with say 6 units and 3 solo entries for each army (Khador, Cryx, Skorne, Trollbloods etc). While having a wide selection of Warcaster/Warlocks and Warjacks/Warbeasts would be a way to reduce bloat, and still allow players room for creative list building.
Back in Prime/Primal days changing the Warcaster/Warlock while keeping the rest of the force the same radically changed how a force played. That was one of the game's main strengths, and a great selling point.
The problem PP ran into over time is that as they added new models/units to each faction they closed off potential design space to themselves due to the potential for abuse. By hyper-segregating everything they ensure that they will basically always have a "blank slate" to work with where they don't have to concern themselves with the balance implications of giving faction x access to a certain spell or unit type, etc. and how that might interact with other stuff that already exists.
Still, it's nice to know that even if I agree to buy into a new Mk4 Warmachine army, my money is no good to PP as a filthy mercs player. Time to go team red or team blue (or team off white?).. or go home.
Mercenaries have been the Mk4 "army" design from the beginning. Everything we're seeing today just spins out from that early "Contracts" concept. We'll just have something like the Rhul: Mountain Guard or Ord: Steelheads instead of putting them in the Mercenaries banner going forward. Making armies for these smaller countries without needing to commit to keeping them in line with the established factions has been kind of the big thing they've been looking to solve for years now.
Theme lists and allowing the units and Solos to bloat were the main issues with the game.
Did we really need Trench Long gunners, they made Long Gunners more or less redundant, the game catalogue had 20 years of releases, with each expansion making more and more redundant. That was the main issue, PP focused on the wrong things with the expansions.
LunarSol wrote: Trencher Long Gunners absolutely should have been resculpts of the originals. That was just silly.
Nope, they were fine. Gravediggers didn't get regular Long Gunners.
Nope, just highlights that themes were an utterly stupid idea. If the work around them was to make Trench Long Gunners, because the theme didn't allow Long Gunners... yeah, the problem there is with theme lists.
and they solved that critique with armies. Now Long Gunners and Trencher Long Gunners can co-exist as two separate units in two separate armies without anyone perceiving them as being "redundant", because they could never be taken together anyway.
chaos0xomega wrote: and they solved that critique with armies. Now Long Gunners and Trencher Long Gunners can co-exist as two separate units in two separate armies without anyone perceiving them as being "redundant", because they could never be taken together anyway.
Nope, themes are gone in MKIV, and those two will not likely both be grandfathered into Prime, but rather both be in Unlimited... where players can build a Cygnar force as they please, and not be restrictrd to what models from those made for Cygnar they can take. Plus themes as they are in MKIII are non-compulsory... so a player could take both units if they wish.
MKIII was (sadly) a disaster for the game, here in Ireland it pretty much killed the game off. Their solution to the issues are I strongly believe going to bite them in the arse. They had the chance to make the game into a great success, but they made too many bad decisions... and now we are where we are.
Pretty sure they are not used in Unlimited, players can take what they want from the faction. Allows players to dabble and play around with their lists.
Edit.
'New Edition
• The existing catalog of miniatures for WARMACHINE and HORDES is overwhelming for players, retailers, and distributors, and continuing to expand upon that catalog exacerbates the problems that result from it.
• In order to maintain the playability of the entire catalog of existing models, we have created two arenas of play: Unlimited, which will allow all existing and new MKIV models to be playable; and Prime, which will provide limited model options in building armies from the preexisting catalog as well as incorporate all new MKIV releases.'
So yeah, Unlimited allows for full list creation with no restrictions other than nation/faction (Skorne, Trollblood, Khador, Cygnar, etc).
stonehorse wrote: Pretty sure they are not used in Unlimited, players can take what they want from the faction. Allows players to dabble and play around with their lists.
Edit.
'New Edition
• The existing catalog of miniatures for WARMACHINE and HORDES is overwhelming for players, retailers, and distributors, and continuing to expand upon that catalog exacerbates the problems that result from it.
• In order to maintain the playability of the entire catalog of existing models, we have created two arenas of play: Unlimited, which will allow all existing and new MKIV models to be playable; and Prime, which will provide limited model options in building armies from the preexisting catalog as well as incorporate all new MKIV releases.'
So yeah, Unlimited allows for full list creation with no restrictions other than nation/faction (Skorne, Trollblood, Khador, Cygnar, etc).
That statement doesn't say what you think it does.
chaos0xomega wrote: and they solved that critique with armies. Now Long Gunners and Trencher Long Gunners can co-exist as two separate units in two separate armies without anyone perceiving them as being "redundant", because they could never be taken together anyway.
Nope, themes are gone in MKIV, and those two will not likely both be grandfathered into Prime, but rather both be in Unlimited... where players can build a Cygnar force as they please, and not be restrictrd to what models from those made for Cygnar they can take. Plus themes as they are in MKIII are non-compulsory... so a player could take both units if they wish.
MKIII was (sadly) a disaster for the game, here in Ireland it pretty much killed the game off. Their solution to the issues are I strongly believe going to bite them in the arse. They had the chance to make the game into a great success, but they made too many bad decisions... and now we are where we are.
Erm...
I did not say a single word at all about themes. And you rather missed the point - I was not literally talking about long gunners and trencher long gunners, I was using them as an example. My point stands, the situation you described is no longer an issue, because they resolved it fully with armies as stand-alone entities. You will never have an issue of unit redundancy again, because a unit of "long gunners" in army x and a unit of "trencher long gunners" in army y are never co-fieldable.
Discussions about Unlimited are irrelevant, unlimited is basically the "Open Play" of Warmachine - just like GW barely pays lip service to Open Play and very few people actually play it, so too will Privateer Press barely acknowledge or support the existence of Unlimited and Warmachine players never touch it.
I did not say a single word at all about themes. And you rather missed the point - I was not literally talking about long gunners and trencher long gunners, I was using them as an example. My point stands, the situation you described is no longer an issue, because they resolved it fully with armies as stand-alone entities. You will never have an issue of unit redundancy again, because a unit of "long gunners" in army x and a unit of "trencher long gunners" in army y are never co-fieldable.
OK, now I see your point... why you couldn't have just explained it like this to begin with made bit a lot clearer. Their solution is a dilution to a problem they created, and it reminds me of what GW did with AoS initially, and we all saw how poorly that was received.
Edit. They can be fielded together, just in a format you want to dismiss to prove your point. In Unlimited they can be fielded together. In Prome Arena they can not be fielded together.
Discussions about Unlimited are irrelevant, unlimited is basically the "Open Play" of Warmachine - just like GW barely pays lip service to Open Play and very few people actually play it, so too will Privateer Press barely acknowledge or support the existence of Unlimited and Warmachine players never touch it.
If MKIV core rules are good, I'll most certainly play Unlimited. As for lack of support, meh... you are talking to someone who plays WFB 6th edition, Epic 40,000, and 2nd edition Space Hulk, so I couldn't care less about support from PP.
Seeing as people have collections going back 20 years, I'd say that Unlimited gets a lot of play, especially with how long it is going to take PP to flesh out MKIV new stuff, Hordes lot is a good few years off.
Discussions about Unlimited are irrelevant, unlimited is basically the "Open Play" of Warmachine - just like GW barely pays lip service to Open Play and very few people actually play it, so too will Privateer Press barely acknowledge or support the existence of Unlimited and Warmachine players never touch it.
So I largely agree. It think its pretty cute that people think PP is going to do anything other than a rough one-and-done for all the non-prime legacy stuff (i.e. 80% of the existing line). But it must be fairly worrying for PP that most of the talk in the FB page and other places (that i have seen) is all about "how does x work in Unlimited", "can I use X in unlimited" Very little chat from the community about Prime. I know our local group is just intending to stick with their legacy models.
PP is going to have to make the Mk4 Prime stuff "better" and hope that the old crowd is swayed by the new shiny stuff. Because if most of the community just sticks with their old Mk3 models and plays unlimited or even worse for them, MK3, then the company is going to struggle. That would be the worse case scenario.
There's a lot of confusion of the difference between Unlimited and Legacy Prime that I suspect drives this. I suspect most people will find themselves pretty happy with Legacy Prime from what we've seen though I won't disparage anyone looking to run an Unlimited army and will be happy to play against it (and probably make a few with my old favorites).
Because if most of the community just sticks with their old Mk3 models and plays unlimited or even worse for them, MK3, then the company is going to struggle. That would be the worse case scenario.
This is what is going to happen. The community will be very reluctant to just stop using 20 years worth of collected models, while paying the frankly ludicrous asking prices for 3D printed models that PP seem to have put the future of their company on. I suspect that the battlegroups at Gencon sold well, due to being a cheap entry point. Those were sadly a limited deal, and the full forces they are doing as deals will struggle to sell I imagine.
MKIV could be the thing that kills off PP. Shame as I think there is a great game in it, just sadly PP seem to make so many daft decisions that just become their undoing.
Edit. They can be fielded together, just in a format you want to dismiss to prove your point. In Unlimited they can be fielded together. In Prome Arena they can not be fielded together.
How often do you and the people you know play Open Play 40k/AoS? I've seen precisely *zero* games of either since they introduced that concept however many years ago. I've encountered maybe a handful of people who admit to playing Open Play as their primary format or, even more than once.
Basically the same thing. Privateer Press has made clear that Prime Arena will be the primary format of play and their primary focus for development, and were clear in stating that the size of the back catalog being made available in Unlimited play is too prohibitively large for them to support with balance and content updates. Thats the clearest sign I need to know that Unlimited will have a short shelf-life.
Well, no one plays 40k or AoS here. We see WFB 6th edition, KoW, Warcry, MCP, and Battle tech.
In your area it may not be played, but that doesn't mean it is a format that has a short shelf life, besides just because a game isn't supported doesn't mean it isn't played. This mindset that a game has to be supported in order to be viable is a clear sign that GW's pump and dump support strategy has altered how people view a game's worth.
I'd also add that the FB account for Warmachine slants very heavily towards people asking about Unlimited... because people have models for that format, and Prime arena may take years to get to a workable place. Now Social Media is not the best gauge, but the announcement of MKIV Prime Arena seems to be generating more interest in MKI-III, and Unlimited... I'd bet it has PP a bit worried.
Open play in 40k is too simplistic. It's only good for learning the basics.
I think there is a misunderstanding regarding unlimited/prime. From what I read, there is:
- Unlimited: where you can play whatever model you want, but will not be supported.
- Prime: which comprises = 1. the new armies released in MK4
2. legacy armies = 28 armies from all the models released until MK4
We also have an example of a legacy Army: Cryx Banes. I checked the rooster of that army and here are the statistics:
All Cryx Army:
Out of these, the Legacy Prime legal Bane Army has:
- 2 warcasters (+2 more for the Blackfleet army = 4) = 17,3%
- 11 warjacks = 44% of all jacks
- 4 units = 18,1%
- 10 solos = 40%
Considering there is a second Cryx army that will also have it's own rooster, most likely the majority of Cryx models will be legal in Prime. Which means if you played Cryx for ~past 10 years, you should have no problem fielding an army for Prime. As a side note, the Cryx battlebox and the 2 player starter set are 100% Prime legal, so if you want to play MKIV and like Cryx, those are great buys and a cheap way to get into the game.
We also have an example of a legacy Army: Cryx Banes.
Cryx aren't necessarily the best example. If you look at Khador you have:
23 warcasters
3 battle engines
22 solos
21 units
but between the two armies and one interpretation of how the cadre system will work for legacy armies, you'll probably only have the availability of the following in mk4:
(I excluded warjacks because those are harder to predict as there was stated to be overlap between the two armies in terms of what can be fielded)
So while Cryx, because it has two very strong themes that cover a sizeable chunk of the army, will likely end up having access to about 70% of the faction by my estimate, Khador, which had more diversity in army themes will end up with less than half the faction available.
- 2 warcasters (+2 more for the Blackfleet army = 4) = 17,3%
Theres actually 3 casters per legacy prime army, only 2 are included in the beta, so theres actually 6 casters total.
I got my starter box in and, all in all im pretty impressed with the casts. Super crisp and clean. A little light sanding to smooth a part or 2 out, nothing a person who had had to build a PP model cannot do.
Ektarina is very cool looking but..(and this is a lot on my ocd about scale) Shes BIG! Like, the size of a new chaos space marines big. At TT distance your not gonna notice, but I put her next to some of my mk3 miniatures and she is noticeably larger. I'm a proxy nut..so..this bugs me a bit. I imagine This will be less of an issue when other mins start to come out but...still bothers me.
Mind you it matter not a whit about the jacks, giant honking robot is giant next to anyone.
MK4 just looks to be a larger scale than previous stuff. Given the mostly clean break nature of it, I think that's okay as long as its consistent within your own army.
EDIT: Looks like my order is out for delivery today too! Looking forward to getting my hands on them. Khador stuff was clearly running late.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just finished magnetizing my jacks. Incredibly satisfying. There's enough magnets I was able to easily track the polarity and do the whole thing in about 15 minutes. Need to give them some time to see if I really screwed up, but first tests look fine.
Very clean sculpts. Need to go over them and do a final cleanup but they seem good enough that I don't really have to. Significantly less than most resins I've worked with, if only because there's no tabs to clip off.
Hrrmm...upon priming my newly magnetized jacks..there..are on some pieces, a distressing amount off layer lines. Looks like some sanding will be in order to keep those from bothering me.
The designs are first class though , I'm excited to get some paint on them
Mind you it matter not a whit about the jacks, giant honking robot is giant next to anyone.
The jacks are actually notably smaller than my existing Khador jacks. I couldn't figure out exactly why at first, but finally realized that they're significantly more realistically proportioned. The legs are about the same size (though with more armor that bulks them out a bit) and the torso has been shrunk down with less of a "skipped leg day" look. I do quick like that the different head options face different directions and do a good job of giving the same body different silhouettes. I do wish there was some posing options for the arms but the keying is very nicely done and I've spent a silly amount of time playing around with the different options.
As for the quality of the prints, I'm overall satisfied, but there's nits to pick. Assembly and cleanup was a total breeze. I have found some stepping issues as I paint that probably could have been found if I had spent more prep time. It does have this weird effect where I know its there, but can't really see it until its a few inches from my face. The Dire Wolf is notably worse than the Great Bear and the weapons seem to have more issues than the bodies. I haven't found any issues with the caster sculpt; it feels like its just another resin I've worked with. Painted up, the Great Bear is definitely one of the better looking jacks in my collection. Definitely not a perfect production process and there are absolutely flaws, but as someone who generally takes a lot of issue with layer lines in 3D prints, I'm pretty happy they seem to be minimal enough not to distract me from the sculpt as a whole, particularly given how many rounded surfaces Khador jacks have.
In terms of cost you're definitely paying for all the arm options. They easily make up over half the material, even as much as 2/3rds. There seems to be a lot of game behind them though and in playing around with the preview rules there's really only maybe 5 of the 16 arm options that aren't jumping out at me as having a place. I am really looking forward to getting these on the table and doing some 25 point games to test out different loadouts. Overall, feeling pretty positive about it.
Here’s the abbreviated version, if you’re short on time:
- Sea Raiders and Storm Legion Starters release date is moving to later in the quarter.
- The WARMACHINE app Beta is on schedule and due to release at the end of October.
- The extra time has allowed us to add more new poses to Sea Raider and Storm Legion infantry units so no two troopers in a unit look the same.
- We are working with a UK-based 3D printing company that will be taking on a portion of our production to minimize the initial delay. In the future, they will supply our customers - in the UK and EU, minimizing shipping time and expense and ensuring consistent availability of product to the UK and EU.
- Thanks to the additional production bandwidth this partnership brings, we might be able to see some Dusk: House Kallyss on the table sooner than later!
Given it took 2 months to get my preview models from Gencon.... I am not surprised by this at all.
Kind of a bummer, but locally the Legacy armies were going to get the first crack at it anyway. Warmachine has never had the "new addition/new army" culture I see in other games and while there's a handful jumping on Cygnar/Orgoth, the majority was always going to be looking at their revamped collection.
"With the start of production of the Core Army Starters pushed back, we took the time to revisit our contents and create additional poses for the infantry units in both the Sea Raiders and Storm Legion Starters, so there will be no duplicate trooper poses in any of their units. We’ve also gone back to sculpts to add supporting elements or re-engineer elements that are prone to breakage in an effort to deliver an ever-improving product."
Nice - I'm glad they fixed the duplicates (and that apparently that won't be a thing going forward). Also never really though about how, with 3d printing they'd be able to easily go back and tinker with existing sculpts. I'd seen a few complaints about bent/broken weapons with the new kits, so nice they are shoring up supports.
Also interesting they blame some of the delay on having a big influx of orders for older minis they had to spend time casting/packing. Apparently a lot of people wanted to finish their armies before MKIV hit.
Also interesting they blame some of the delay on having a big influx of orders for older minis they had to spend time casting/packing. Apparently a lot of people wanted to finish their armies before MKIV hit.
That was partially their own fault. The preview boxes were $75 and free shipping was $100 so it was an obvious time to pick up some random extras.
Also interesting they blame some of the delay on having a big influx of orders for older minis they had to spend time casting/packing. Apparently a lot of people wanted to finish their armies before MKIV hit.
Not a surprise at all, that is exactly what our group has been doing, mostly since we are still going to be playing MK III we wanted to get all the stuff they were not going to continue before it went away.
Same. I used to have all of the merc solos, but after the Mk4 news broke I had a look through my collection and discovered that about 40% of them have gone missing, probably during my last house move. I have been frantically trying to replace them before they become impossible to get lol
Interesting to see for the retribution list rysovass defenders, archers, priest, aelyth vyr. All of them were in defenders theme only. Maybe there's a chance AFG also makes the cut? Please?
I'm curious about the models from mk3 that are still prime legal. Will they still be produced/available?
I'm curious about the models from mk3 that are still prime legal. Will they still be produced/available?
My understanding (which could be wrong) is that anything that in NOT in prime will eventually be discontinued and phased out of production. But it will be more as moulds break etc.
However PP only has a finite capacity so I expect that as they need that production/factory space for new stuff, old things will just get dropped. I expect that while unlimited will be popular for a while, PP is going to put little to no resources into it other than initial release so expect new and prime models to just be better, thus driving any community towards buying the new hotness. Short version, if its not i prime, its not going to be supported or balanced.
So if you want to buy 3 units of Kossak Woodsmen, go ahead, just don't expect them to be relevant to PP or the game in a years time.
Here’s the abbreviated version, if you’re short on time:
- Sea Raiders and Storm Legion Starters release date is moving to later in the quarter.
- The WARMACHINE app Beta is on schedule and due to release at the end of October.
- The extra time has allowed us to add more new poses to Sea Raider and Storm Legion infantry units so no two troopers in a unit look the same.
- We are working with a UK-based 3D printing company that will be taking on a portion of our production to minimize the initial delay. In the future, they will supply our customers - in the UK and EU, minimizing shipping time and expense and ensuring consistent availability of product to the UK and EU.
- Thanks to the additional production bandwidth this partnership brings, we might be able to see some Dusk: House Kallyss on the table sooner than later!
So I see they've decided to kill the game at birth in EU by making them pay custom charges by ordering from the UK.
Thinking on this a bit more since I've seen it come up a few times here and there; one of the BIG themes that's been missing from the game for a while is Gun Mages. They just never quite fit with the directions Cygnar has primarily taken (Trenchers and Storm Tech), but they'd be pretty perfect to repurpose as a major part of a proper Llael army. Could easily pull in a lot of the Precursor stuff that's never quite had a home too.
I'm curious about the models from mk3 that are still prime legal. Will they still be produced/available?
My understanding (which could be wrong) is that anything that in NOT in prime will eventually be discontinued and phased out of production. But it will be more as moulds break etc.
However PP only has a finite capacity so I expect that as they need that production/factory space for new stuff, old things will just get dropped. I expect that while unlimited will be popular for a while, PP is going to put little to no resources into it other than initial release so expect new and prime models to just be better, thus driving any community towards buying the new hotness. Short version, if its not i prime, its not going to be supported or balanced.
So if you want to buy 3 units of Kossak Woodsmen, go ahead, just don't expect them to be relevant to PP or the game in a years time.
PP has confirmed that with the exception of Riot Quest miniatures, all Mk3 era Warmachine/Hordes minis will be discontinued, regardless of whether or not its Prime legal. PP is fully discontinuing metal, cast resin, and plastic miniatures. Riot Quest (and Warcaster) miniatures will be migrated over to 3d printed resin. None of the legacy Warmachine/Hordes miniatures are expected to make the jump, even if they were digitally sculpted.
"After the app launches, we’ll be introducing the second Prime Legacy armies for any Factions waiting on a second army at the pace of about one army per month, with the expectation of having all Prime Legacy content updated before the end of next year."
So Legacy stuff is essentially going to be on a drip feed and not fully playable till 2024. I get the feeling this is due not just because of the large catalogue, but also to stiffle interest in Legacy. Prime will be in full swing, fully supported, and Legacy will be lacking.
This is just for Warmachine stuff, Hordes is going to be what, 3-4 years before it's Legacy catalogue is playable.
Hordes is just Warmachine with Warlocks and Beasts now. The Hordes armies are getting Prime armies Friday alongside Warmachine. When they talk about Hordes content next year, they're referring to the two new mk4 Warlock lead armies. There are 13 promised Prime armies across the game not making the beta launch, so about 1 per month is right on track for them all by the end of 2023. I don't think the drip feed is any sort of nepharious scheme. It's pretty much what was promised up front, just with a lot less clarity on what Legacy means.
IDK what PP think they're doing, that they have enough clout to obsolete or stifle their entire existing lines and retain their player base... It's not like they're a necessary service nor are they the biggest game in town... what's making them think this will build loyalty or interest? I'd been occasionally visiting this thread because I'd kinda felt nostalgia about my old armies enough to see what's going on and maybe get back in after some years away, but I just don't see the appeal.
It might be that after all the massive sales they did and the downplaying of the line; they might well have seen actual sales fall so low that they aren't concerned about current customers as much. At least not current customers who aren't going to jump fully into MK4 and all the changes. So they are providing some support for older fans, but the business model is 100% going to rely on those buying into the MK4 changes and updates.
It's kind of like what GW did with the shift from Old World to Age of Sigmar only not quite as bad.
I think many did feel that PP needed to revamp their lines; though doing so with such big swings is risky; especially when they are doubling down on keeping the SKU so small that they are almost pricing out newbies. Which is my big worry - those high priced boxed sets are not attractive as the only buy-in option.
Yes other firms have expensive buy in sets - Infinity, GW, Dystopian Wars, Dropzone and Dropfleet - all have expensive high priced buy in sets. However they also all back them up with much cheaper offerings. Heck about the only game that might not is Adeptus Titanicus and that's a niche game from the market leader with 35 years of marketing behind it.
Personally I'm interested as I did feel that updating older models to new designs was something on the cards, but as a Hordes Everblight player its going to be a long wait before I'll likely see anything new.
I'm surprised PP didn't do it in waves and phases, phase an army out and bring out new things for it whilst keeping others on
spiralingcadaver wrote: IDK what PP think they're doing, that they have enough clout to obsolete or stifle their entire existing lines and retain their player base... It's not like they're a necessary service nor are they the biggest game in town... what's making them think this will build loyalty or interest? I'd been occasionally visiting this thread because I'd kinda felt nostalgia about my old armies enough to see what's going on and maybe get back in after some years away, but I just don't see the appeal.
They're ceasing production on the existing lines because they can't support them anymore. Most of it had switched to PVC and is literally gone once its gone. Too much of the game needs to be redone from scratch so that's effectively what we're getting.
spiralingcadaver wrote: IDK what PP think they're doing, that they have enough clout to obsolete or stifle their entire existing lines and retain their player base... It's not like they're a necessary service nor are they the biggest game in town... what's making them think this will build loyalty or interest? I'd been occasionally visiting this thread because I'd kinda felt nostalgia about my old armies enough to see what's going on and maybe get back in after some years away, but I just don't see the appeal.
They're ceasing production on the existing lines because they can't support them anymore. Most of it had switched to PVC and is literally gone once its gone. Too much of the game needs to be redone from scratch so that's effectively what we're getting.
I kinda feel like that ironically works out the best in the long run because I don't think PP would have had the balls to do a big reboot (that the game needed IMO) otherwise.
They do seem to be struggling with things already which is unfortunate (but not surprising given the last few years). I think they'd have been much better served with a different roll-out though.
1) 2022 - get out rules + Step 1 (a battlebox with Caster+2 jacks/beasts) representing every "big" faction. Relatively cheap entry, lets people try out new stuff, if they get bored they can try a different faction
2) 2023 - work on getting out "step 2" of each force (the bigger $150 or whatever boxes) to flesh out armies once a month - so by next August every Army can play at 50pts or whatevs. Then spend the remainder of the year doing v2 of the rules and new Step 1/2s for new/weird factions.
3) 2024 - Now move to step 3s for the first 2/3rds the year - letting every faction now field a full 75pt force. And then start rolling out the new phase of armies/factions.
Much more interesting and broader appeal than this "we'll get 2 armies out by year's end (maybe) and everyone else can wait ages.
Also - they need to fix those new MOW sculpts - because they are ruining one of everyone's favorite designs :(
LunarSol wrote: Hordes is just Warmachine with Warlocks and Beasts now. The Hordes armies are getting Prime armies Friday alongside Warmachine. When they talk about Hordes content next year, they're referring to the two new mk4 Warlock lead armies. There are 13 promised Prime armies across the game not making the beta launch, so about 1 per month is right on track for them all by the end of 2023. I don't think the drip feed is any sort of nepharious scheme. It's pretty much what was promised up front, just with a lot less clarity on what Legacy means.
I understand that Hordes is being rolled into Warmachine and both systems will come under that name. What threw me was the time line they showed did have 'Warbeast and Warlocks joining MKIV' listed at Gencon 2023, and the recent announcement said previews of Hordes will be shown before the end of next year.
Which made me think that if they are still previewing Hordes Factions, then they must not be in the app launch, but rather added in the future.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AduroT wrote: Their announcement was rushed and premature because they had a disgruntled playtester group breaking NDAs and leaking stuff and doom saying.
Really?
Oh wow, that is bad and sort of ruins things for the rest of us.
Which made me think that if they are still previewing Hordes Factions, then they must not be in the app launch, but rather added in the future.
Yeah, there's all sorts of oddity in the language between all these things for sure. The good news is that Hordes factions will have armies tomorrow. The Trollblood army list is easily the one I'm most excited about. It's a nearly perfect subset of my favorite Trollblood models.
AduroT wrote: Their announcement was rushed and premature because they had a disgruntled playtester group breaking NDAs and leaking stuff and doom saying.
I don't remember this leak at all. Seems to me the announcement was rushed and premature so they had something to sell at GenCon.
AduroT wrote: Their announcement was rushed and premature because they had a disgruntled playtester group breaking NDAs and leaking stuff and doom saying.
I don't remember this leak at all. Seems to me the announcement was rushed and premature so they had something to sell at GenCon.
That was my impression. The only thing I'm not sure of is whether the announcement got pushed up a bit because preview models had been sent out for the GenCon sale that were starting to leak. Depending on the circles you were in, you might know more, but my guess is they put the announcement out 3-5 days ahead of plan because it was becoming clear the NDA wouldn't hold much longer and it was better to get ahead of it.
AduroT wrote: Their announcement was rushed and premature because they had a disgruntled playtester group breaking NDAs and leaking stuff and doom saying.
I don't remember this leak at all. Seems to me the announcement was rushed and premature so they had something to sell at GenCon.
That was my impression. The only thing I'm not sure of is whether the announcement got pushed up a bit because preview models had been sent out for the GenCon sale that were starting to leak. Depending on the circles you were in, you might know more, but my guess is they put the announcement out 3-5 days ahead of plan because it was becoming clear the NDA wouldn't hold much longer and it was better to get ahead of it.
IIRC those models were across the internet literally the week before Gencon, which was several weeks after the Mark 4 announcement. Nevermind. It was the exact same day. Which is also the same day DarkLegacy showed them off on his twitch stream.
Speaking of the Dark Legacy Twitch stream (Nekuralzou), we got a LOT of info from a demo of the new app.
Overall, it looks pretty clean. More colorful than the old app. I think the bit that stands out most is that it drops stats that a model has no use for now. No RAT unless you have a ranged weapon to use it. Makes for some really clean statlines on stuff like basic melee troops. Demo'd on a PC emulator though so its hard to say how it will work when its actually on my phone.
I wish I could say I was excited but I'm one of the older players who go burned in all the previous edition changes but stuck with PP till this one (just not sure if I will make the change).
I get some of the production reasons but this change really feels like it burns their most loyal players the worst. They should have at least tried to continue support forces from Mk3. I get having to drop anything plastic (thanks Chinese thieves). I just wish they could do what Wargames Atlantic is doing with moving plastic production to the US.
legionaires wrote: I wish I could say I was excited but I'm one of the older players who go burned in all the previous edition changes but stuck with PP till this one (just not sure if I will make the change).
I get some of the production reasons but this change really feels like it burns their most loyal players the worst. They should have at least tried to continue support forces from Mk3. I get having to drop anything plastic (thanks Chinese thieves). I just wish they could do what Wargames Atlantic is doing with moving plastic production to the US.
I actually didn't start till MKIII. I knew it was around in MKI and II but the mechanics then were not to my liking. i have had a great time with MK III but then i play in a very casual friendly group that avoids many of the things people dislike about it-theme lists, steamroller etc... we also usually cap out our games at 50 points unless it is something by special request. i am quite sure i will NOT be making the change to 4th. i find the changes take away many of the things i really enjoy about the game. not to mention the stylistic change/time jump. i went out and finished acquiring all the rest of the models i needed for my MK III army. it gives me roughly 180 points in MK III to play around with so i have plenty of variety for my 50 point lists.
I also went out and PDF downloaded all the MK III cards for every army and the main rulebook so our group is set.
If you have an android smartphone you may have to wait about week or so it would seem.
If you have an apple smartphone, it is available on the apple app store now.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
emanuelb wrote: So is there gonna be a version for PC? Or can I download the app on my pc?
Not sure, if your pc does apps, it can be downloaded when available at whatever app store you use. If your pc doesn't do apps... not sure, but I think you may be out of luck.
I wonder what are the other armies that will be added for Prime Legacy. I understand the main factions will get a 2nd army, but what about Cygnar? Technically it already has 2 armies (incl Storm Legion), so will it get another one? And if yes, which one?
First Army is based on Trencher theme from what I see, but I wonder the other one what will it be.
I've been kind of half-heartedly following all this. My only question is how much drugs were done over at PP for them to think this was a good way to go?
I guess they were running dry with their mk3 sales and the interest in the game was rock bottom. I think this attempt at a fresh start is their hail Mary. Their limitations show at every step (dubious quality prints, absurd pricing, delays in rules delivery) but I believe their choice was between that or closing shop.
Sim-Life wrote: I've been kind of half-heartedly following all this. My only question is how much drugs were done over at PP for them to think this was a good way to go?
I haven't really been following this much. What exactly is happening that's got people so annoyed?
Agreed. The fact that they didn't go for Sciocast also suggests that the budget for Warmachine just isn't there right now to justify investment and the sales are likely not high enough to seek outside investment/loans (we also have no idea what other loans they might already have repayments on).
My hope is that this plan works enough to spark interest, get the same selling again, some some active gaming and give PP the income from it that's enough to perhaps consider moving to sciocast and other production methods in the future.
In theory 3D printing is good for the small to lower weight end of the market. Scaling up to medium and large scale you can do, but its not as easy nor efficient as other production methods.
I think the main issue with Siocast is just that its a proprietary technology. The last thing PP needs right now is to switch over their entire production line to something entirely dependent on a foreign third party. While I personally have enough faith in Siocast, I can totally see PP being a little cautious after the PVC debacle. And its not like the 3D prints are subpar. I'm quite happy with what I got in the preview boxes. They are sharp models that look great with remarkably little prep time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
emanuelb wrote: So is there gonna be a version for PC? Or can I download the app on my pc?
There is a PC version coming. Dark Legacy confirmed it but didn't realize that only the mobile versions would be available this weekend.
I haven't really been following this much. What exactly is happening that's got people so annoyed?
A lot of the old models are being moved to a Legacy format and retired. A subset of them are being used to create a new Standard style format to go along with all new armies released going forward.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
emanuelb wrote: I wonder what are the other armies that will be added for Prime Legacy. I understand the main factions will get a 2nd army, but what about Cygnar? Technically it already has 2 armies (incl Storm Legion), so will it get another one? And if yes, which one?
First Army is based on Trencher theme from what I see, but I wonder the other one what will it be.
We've got a list of the 13 armies that will be releasing 1 per month over the next year:
Cygnar - Storm Knights (the old ones separate from the new Storm Legion)
Khador - Winter Guard (the old ones separate from the new Winter Korps)
Menoth - Flameguard
Cryx - Blackfleet Pirates
Retribution - Mage Hunters
Mercenaries - Dwarves
Mercenaries - Cephylix
Mercenaries - Pirates
Mercenaries(Minions) - Farrow
Trollbloods - United Kriels
Circle - Blackclads
Skorne - Immortals
Legion - Blighted Nyss
I haven't really been following this much. What exactly is happening that's got people so annoyed?
A lot of the old models are being moved to a Legacy format and retired. A subset of them are being used to create a new Standard style format to go along with all new armies released going forward.
Outstanding.
I mean, why would anyone want to use their existing models in the new edition of a game?
I haven't really been following this much. What exactly is happening that's got people so annoyed?
A lot of the old models are being moved to a Legacy format and retired. A subset of them are being used to create a new Standard style format to go along with all new armies released going forward.
Outstanding.
I mean, why would anyone want to use their existing models in the new edition of a game?
Essentially it comes down to PP no longer being able to produce the old models and resculpting the line just not having any chance of being a profitable venture. From our games over the weekend the compromise is pretty well implemented and as long as PP follows through on its promise to provide legacy rules for everything, I'm pretty happy with the results. Not a perfect solution, but the game has been horribly bloated for a long time and I can't say I'm really surprised either.
I haven't really been following this much. What exactly is happening that's got people so annoyed?
A lot of the old models are being moved to a Legacy format and retired. A subset of them are being used to create a new Standard style format to go along with all new armies released going forward.
Outstanding.
I mean, why would anyone want to use their existing models in the new edition of a game?
Well alternative is of course give rules with no models for sale.
For what's marketed as competitive game that would put players who start with mk4 at marked disadvantage the moment old model is found to have so good rules you must have it.
Alternatively of course artificially make them so weak none can come even close to mk4 units
Overread wrote: Agreed. The fact that they didn't go for Sciocast also suggests that the budget for Warmachine just isn't there right now to justify investment and the sales are likely not high enough to seek outside investment/loans (we also have no idea what other loans they might already have repayments on).
As I have some personal knowledge on why they didn't go with Siocast from conversations with PP staff - Siocast is crap quality, worse than their previous vinyl plastic (this is true, I and other miniatures producers I know have looked into it and its crap, as is the quality of the siocast stuff being produced by CB, PSC, etc.), and there was too much proprietary red tape/bureacracy that made it undesirable to them as there were risk factors with losing control of their product like what happened previously with China.
Overread wrote: Agreed. The fact that they didn't go for Sciocast also suggests that the budget for Warmachine just isn't there right now to justify investment and the sales are likely not high enough to seek outside investment/loans (we also have no idea what other loans they might already have repayments on).
As I have some personal knowledge on why they didn't go with Siocast from conversations with PP staff - Siocast is crap quality, worse than their previous vinyl plastic (this is true, I and other miniatures producers I know have looked into it and its crap, as is the quality of the siocast stuff being produced by CB, PSC, etc.), and there was too much proprietary red tape/bureacracy that made it undesirable to them as there were risk factors with losing control of their product like what happened previously with China.
Yeah, I can believe that. The few SioCast models I have worked with I wasn't really impressed; it didn't feel like an "improvement" over PVC to me. Plus I hear those machines are pretty darn expensive (80K USD is what I heard, but not sure if that's really accurate).
I think it feels a lot better than PVC in terms of cast quality, but I haven't worked with much in terms of facial features and the like to feel that strongly about it. It seems a little brittle like a hard resin and its got flash problems like most molded materials.
I mostly agree with the sentiment that its not the wonder material that everyone seems to think. It's definitely a solid product but it has its own set of drawbacks like everything else.
Not liking that look, at all. Definitely feels too far away from the steampunk that originally was the aesthetic (yes, I know, Ios was a bit less so, but still...) which is a big part of what drew me in. Also, yeah, that color scheme does not photograph well.
Literally a Neomechanica jack with a Ret head on it. PP re-using assets.
Really really not a fan of the aesthetic look of Mk4. I hope that the Hordes factions still look like proper hordes rather than some lazer tech with a trollblood or Circle face.
Not a fan of this design either. I'm glad to see PP finally have 360 views on their previews but honestly I'd just prefer to be able to click on the photos and see them in a decent size. Their pics are so damn small.
Valander wrote: Not liking that look, at all. Definitely feels too far away from the steampunk that originally was the aesthetic (yes, I know, Ios was a bit less so, but still...) which is a big part of what drew me in. Also, yeah, that color scheme does not photograph well.
No kidding. I can barely tell what I'm looking at in places. What I can make out is... not great. The chain whip and shield are absurdly thick.
The weird art-deco Warcraft sword is fine if you like that style, but I can't even tell what that jack has in? on? the other hand.
Not!Goreshade seems like a step backwards in pretty much every respect.
Spider guy seems like the best of a bad lot.
Schmapi wrote:Not a fan of this design either. I'm glad to see PP finally have 360 views on their previews but honestly I'd just prefer to be able to click on the photos and see them in a decent size. Their pics are so damn small.
Yeah. They don't seem to grasp that (particularly with their new sales model), online pics are what sell their products. They need to be bigger, better, show off a lot more and have functional, photographable color schemes. And the 360s could stand to be a little less dated and clunky- not sure word press videos were the way to go here.
I really dislike these models in the sense of Warmachine/Hordes.
I feel they're rapidly losing that awesome high fantasy steam punk vibe that drew me to the game (In addition to Trollbloods being able to literally headbutt and toss enemy models like playing violent bowling)
I really dislike these models in the sense of Warmachine/Hordes.
I feel they're rapidly losing that awesome high fantasy steam punk vibe that drew me to the game (In addition to Trollbloods being able to literally headbutt and toss enemy models like playing violent bowling)
Well the ones in the quoted imaged aren’t Steam Punk, they’re from the future space game. Retribution has never done the Steam Punk thing though, they’ve always been more arcane/smooth Eldar-like in appearance. If anything the new ones are More blended to the setting with the addition of rivets to their metalwork that they didn’t have before.
I dunno, they look a lot like Ret + WHFB Dark Elves* to me, which is fine and cool. I'd say these are my #2 after Khador, because to my eyes Khador preserved the most of the old vibe and these the next most.
I do wish they'd stop with the hyper NMM and use a more grounded, less distracting style
* Check out the headcrests on the Dreadguard (as well as their name!), the loincloth design on Hazaroth, plus the color palette is spot on.
Yeah, I'm much happier with the look on that Warcaster and what we've seen of the infantry. I'm not usually an undead guy but these I find pretty striking and easily on par with Khador for the best of the new stuff.
I feel they're rapidly losing that awesome high fantasy steam punk vibe that drew me to the game
Seconded. I do have the feeling as more and mroe is released that PP have lost their grip on the game and the community. I mean, if I painted a blood drop on this is would't be out of place on a 40k board:
and if they will have the guts to ask why 
), I can't imagine what you might be referring to. Care to elaborate?
