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I'm vaguely interested in Cygnar. But not for that material and price point. If the models were plastics I'd probably be interested but paying that cost for printed resin figures feels....bad.

Also PP needs to realize they aren't who they used to be. Not now and maybe not ever. They aren't the automatic alternative to GW that you could find a game pretty much anywhere around the US. That's moved squarely over to the various star wars games. They have to consider themselves essentially a new market product with some minor name brand recognition. And market new product appropriately. Not like GW.

 Overread wrote:

Those £35 battleboxes are just the kind of thing they should be aiming for again. Heck with rules on app/online strip all the rules material out and just have models; but keep that nice sweet low entry cost to get people buying; then hit them with the £100 boxed sets

Price definitely isn't everything though. Those £35 battleboxes sacrificed a lot in terms of gameplay and model quality to hit that price point. They really don't do the job of pulling in new players anymore in my experience. Once upon a time, yes, but so many games have greatly surpassed them with higher cost box sets that provide a better introduction to their game.

MaxT wrote:
Sure, but then they also had battle boxes of 2 jacks and a caster for like £30/35 quid. Pressgangers sold those by the truckload. That box, a box of infantry, say another £30 and a rule book and you were in the ballpark for a nice starting list to try the game. Not having a low cost starter is simply insane

This essentially. Our gaming group got into Dystopian Wars because they follow this sales model:

Big flagship + 2 cruisers + 4 small frigate ships for about €45 to get some introduction games in... With a total cost for a complete standard force for about €150 (and you'd still have spare models to alter your list if you want). That's about right for an alternative game to the GW juggernaut.

Cyel wrote:
The conclusion is I found PP prices and quality not competitive and that's why for example my Bane Riders and Nyss Hunters look like that:
https://lormahordes.freeforums.net/thread/1801/bane-riders-less-half-price
https://lormahordes.freeforums.net/thread/9637/idoneth-reavers-warmachine

I mean... you chose GW stuff as the cheaper option. I don't think there is a need to say anything else, here.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Overread wrote:

Those £35 battleboxes are just the kind of thing they should be aiming for again. Heck with rules on app/online strip all the rules material out and just have models; but keep that nice sweet low entry cost to get people buying; then hit them with the £100 boxed sets

Price definitely isn't everything though. Those £35 battleboxes sacrificed a lot in terms of gameplay and model quality to hit that price point. They really don't do the job of pulling in new players anymore in my experience.

I must say I don't really get this criticism towards mk3 battleboxes model quality. Yeah, mk2 ones were pretty terrible with this rubbery plastic, but having worked with many starter models from mk3 I have maybe one complaint - Maddox, and that's probably because they decided to make her so terribly tiny. My Denny 2 metal model also seems to suffer from this "too tiny for her own good" syndrome with weird proportions and non-existant facial expression.

Other than that, jacks in the same kit were really good, the simplicity of design fitting for mass-produced workhorses. I also painted Malekus and enjoyed it, not worse in any way than his metal bros.



Last year I bought into trollkin and painting starter Ragnor and Fennblades was a real joy. Such characterful models, easy to work with but with enough detail, especially in the case of Ragnor. I am very hapy with the results! Does he really look that much worse than metal+resin Madrak? Where's this staggering difference in quality?





Honestly, I'd rather have these great models, than, say mk1 metal oldies (I got some second hand trollkin Champions, man, are they awful!!!) or even many of the new ones, like LoE Virtue stuff or the Bleargh! Archon. Those are ugly SoBs!

Yeah, maybe if you are a pro painter looking for a good model to paint for a top competition, those are not going to be your first picks. But otherwise, for gaming purposes, there's absolutely nothing wrong with them and you can have them look great and enjoy how cheap they are at the same time. These model-quality discussions are especially weird, considering how low standards so many of our players have when it comes to their armies, to the point that I start believing that for many of them (not you, LunarSol, but I have even specific examples from my local community in mind) it seems to be an excuse to give themselves for why they are overpaying so much.

-Well, I may have paid a lot for these mk4 models, but at least they are great sculpts and the material is of exceptional quality.
-Do you even paint your models?
-Hell, no! I barely have patience to glue some of the parts together. That's why I play with riderless horses and an empty base for a Colossal.

 Elmir wrote:
So it's $200 for a starterset for 1 player (and you still need to expand on that to reach the game's golden standard points cost, or is that covered?) and you get 24 models in it?

That doesn't seem like an interesting value preposition at all I'm afraid.

And that's before realizing that afawk it doesn't come with any paper (rule book, scenario, terrain map, cards, etc etc).
It's just 24 models, and it probably won't even have inserts in thos empty box to make them useful to store the minies.

 LunarSol wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
So pp makes army where single 28mm infantry model is whole legal army and charges 150 bucks it's fine?

Depends on how good the game behind it is. If that one model gets me dozen of games that are compelling enough to keep me playing with just that one model... good on them I guess. I'd be hard pressed to see such a design masterpiece, but if the game is really that good, then its worth supporting its development.

And how will people who aren’t already neck deep going to know the game is worth the ridiculous price before buying? Why would anyone but the crunchiest beard ever take the risk?

Sounds like these kinds of games are severely limiting their market to a very specific subset of wargamers who consider the game the only real determinate of value. No wonder they don’t feel compelled to put out good quality miniatures.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:
I hope you guys never look into Infintiy or MCP, the prices for individual models would crush you

and if the game works with single 28mm models and you never need to buy anything else, be it so

and I don't know why the collectors market need to be important for a company updating their game
PP is making a game and selling models to be used for it
this is not GW who sells collectors models and wrote a game so you can play with them if you want to

1. I definitely don’t buy Infinity or MCP.

2. WMH has a really small community of active players. Their pool of burnt former-players is pretty big, and pretty bitter judging by the Mk3 threads.

3. There are lots and lots of games that are affordable rule sets and miniature agnostic that allow a player freedom in what they buy, assemble and paint. Pretending the PP method is the only or best method is short sighted, living in the past.

4. Do you believe most gamers start new games because they saw the rulebook and were impressed by the mechanics? Or because they saw the miniatures?

 kodos wrote:
I hope you guys never look into Infintiy or MCP, the prices for individual models would crush you

and if the game works with single 28mm models and you never need to buy anything else, be it so

and I don't know why the collectors market need to be important for a company updating their game
PP is making a game and selling models to be used for it
this is not GW who sells collectors models and wrote a game so you can play with them if you want to

Individual model prices are not the issue though.
I have no problem spending $20-30 for a single MCP model now.
The reason being is that my son and I can try out the game for $100.
That gets us some terrain and two decent lists to play each other against.
Model numbers are not a factor in this at all - the overall starter box price is however.
For $120CAD we get all the tools needed to play a bunch of games to see if we like it.
By the same token, PP is charging almost 5 times that for us to start at all.
So what if a character for MCP costs my up to $50? The fact is, I can choose to spend that later.
And in increments. It’s the initial buy in sticker shock for two players that’s the issue.

Now don’t even get me started on the 3 month old alpha…uh I mean Beta rules for WM….

Fact is, they are charging too much to get into it, and as a result, I just won’t.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Do you believe most gamers start new games because they saw the rulebook and were impressed by the mechanics? Or because they saw the miniatures?

this is easy, people play GW games for the models, and everything else for the mechanics

no one here started Warmachine because he liked the models more than GW models, people started it because they wanted an actual game to play
same with Infinity, Kings of War, Deadzone, SAGA etc. none of those are played because they models are so great and cheap that people don't care if the game is trash or not
and SAGA is a good example as the official Starter Set models are expensive and suck compared to others and people still buy it because it is the easiest way to start and play the game

WMH has a really small community of active players. Their pool of burnt former-players is pretty big, and pretty bitter judging by the Mk3 threads.

which is another reason for higher prices, your are expecting lower sales because of the smaller community (same way Space Marine Heroes are more expensive than line infantry)

There are lots and lots of games that are affordable rule sets and miniature agnostic

every single game were the rules do not come together with the models is miniature agnostic (because in this case you need to buy the models to get the rules and using something else would mean you buy doubles), this is also the reason why no one here plays a game because of the models, as you can use whatever you want with any rules you want
I must play this game because it has the models I like is a GW attitude, that people think applies to everything

 Ghool wrote:

Individual model prices are not the issue though.
I have no problem spending $20-30 for a single MCP model now.
The reason being is that my son and I can try out the game for $100.

but this is the main argument here, that total cost for a game are irrelevant and only the single model prices are important
that you can play MCP for 100 does not matter, a single model is the same price as a full unit from GW so the game is too expensive and you are failing for corporate propaganda to pay such high single model prices

so a WM/H Army for 200 is to expensive because the GW Box for 150 gets you more models, the fact that you need 2 boxes from GW to have an army does not matter just the model price

 Ghool wrote:

Fact is, they are charging too much to get into it, and as a result, I just won’t.

this is something very different, missing cheap intro sets is a problem and I hope they correct it later
though I can understand why they are not done first, as the current product is targeted at existing and new players who want to go all in and play, while old players who want to try it will do it with their existing collection anyway and I guess PP thinks there are not many new players who want to try it to make small starters worth it in the beginning

PP are apparently going to come to the WTC and stream it. I wonder what they will say, seeing how many players from outside of US use alternative models in their armies and if they will have the guts to ask why


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:
but this is the main argument here, that total cost for a game are irrelevant and only the single model prices are important
that you can play MCP for 100 does not matter, a single model is the same price as a full unit from GW so the game is too expensive and you are failing for corporate propaganda to pay such high single model prices

so a WM/H Army for 200 is to expensive because the GW Box for 150 gets you more models, the fact that you need 2 boxes from GW to have an army does not matter just the model price

Please note how kodos conveniently forgets the examples of Warcry or Blood Bowl or ASOIAF starters (or Bolt Action or Kings of War or most, really), which show that, even if we fallaciously assume the "cost per army" approach holds any water, the claim that mk4 starters are well priced still falls flat on its face. Apparently it doesn't even have any accessories inside like dice or effect tokens (correct me if I'm wrong)

Whether it's price per model or price per army PP products are badly overpriced, compared to the competition (maybe unless you start comparing tiny WM armies to dozens models strong armies from mass combat systems... maybe). I know that many people need self-justification for their decisions (lest cognitive dissonance kills them ), but maths is kind of obvious in this case.

PP won't say a thing, because WTC rules require all models to be a majority PP parts and be recognizable as the unit they are meant to represent.

There’s also a difference between these sets and GW’s starters.

GW starters contain two distinct forces. Yes box for box the GW ones are still more expensive. But, they do not require prospective long term opponents to buy-in to find out if they enjoy the game. Because every set is intended for two persons to get gaming.

Now if you’ve already got buddies wanting to try MkIV? It’s all good. But. If they want to try it before they drop money on it? You could be stuck in the bind where you’ve sunk a not insignificant amount of money, and have no-one to play against.

Honestly of the GW duel army sets I wonder how many are people starting with a friend and how many are simply people who are already in the GW ecosystem simply swapping models and trading with friends also already in the hobby
Because I'd wager they are not beginner/entry products save when someone is already buying and looking to move to a new army.



GW instead relies on battleforces, vanguard, killteam, warcry, underworld etc... for their gateway

PP might well be hoping that their new sets are going to attract old customers back. So they aren't worried about new blood so much as old blood coming back. Which is a fair way to approach things; but its a risk because of how long they've been away and because not having newblood options is a poor move for long term growth.

Cyel wrote:

Please note how kodos conveniently forgets the examples of Warcry or Blood Bowl or ASOIAF starters (or Bolt Action or Kings of War or most, really), which show that, even if we fallaciously assume the "cost per army" approach holds any water, the claim that mk4 starters are well priced still falls flat on its face. Apparently it doesn't even have any accessories inside like dice or effect tokens (correct me if I'm wrong)

Kings of War is a good point as well, for a playable Army, you need the Army Set+Mega Army Set, which is 230€
of course you get more models for that price, but those are R&F models, which people always complain that those are not as detailed as Skirmish models and look bad outside R&F units, so are not worth the price
but with 200€ VS 230€, WM is cheaper

a Bolt Action Starter Army is 140€, though it is a historical game and there and WG needs to compete with Perry and Rubicon, and here you have the problem that you can get a BA Army from 3rd parties if you buy individual models, for less than the starter Army though you don't get the themes WG sells (so if you want a Charkiw WG is the only option)

so in this case, Bolt Action Starter Army are the same as a Warmachine Starter Army, overpriced compared to similar models from other companies, but you get a specific theme for their game

ASOIAF, one of the few games around that is not model agnostic, so you don't have a cheaper alternatives, an Army is around 150-200€

Whether it's price per model or price per army PP products are badly overpriced, compared to the competition

but you name as competition GW, and as long a 40k Army is 600-800€, Warmachine will ne the cheap budget option with 200-300€ per Army

they might be overprice compared to Skirmish Games, but those are on a different level anyway, and no one complains that 40k is overpriced because a Blood Bowl Team just costs 60€ compared to 600€
throwing in Boardgames and small Skirmish Games to make the argument work is not the best idea

The new Warmachine stuff is not cheap, but overpriced compared to the competition does not work out

the "normal" price for a Wargaming Army is sets around 200€, does not matter if it is historical or a unique IP
skirmish games are cheaper but often needs more terrain so the additional cost go there, hence we look at Necromunda with 200€ boxes

there are some cheaper ones around, usually either a mix of Boardgame/Wargame with a low model count, or historicals were you can use cheap R&F infantry to play (no reason to buy the super detailed and expensive skirmish models if a box of 60 R&F infantry costs the same)

and of course the big games like 40k and AoS which are much more expensive than everyone else, which is funny as single Infinity model is more expensive than the GW standard infantry, but yet it is seen as a cheaper alternative don't know why

What are you supposed to do with the models you already have, bin them?

PP is really not doing themselves favors. I think that they are becoming victims of their own Page 5 propaganda, considering what they are trying to do here.

As to Infinity, you can't compare these two games on the price point of the models, nor on game play.
They are not even in the same league.

 Overread wrote:
Honestly of the GW duel army sets I wonder how many are people starting with a friend and how many are simply people who are already in the GW ecosystem simply swapping models and trading with friends also already in the hobby
Because I'd wager they are not beginner/entry products save when someone is already buying and looking to move to a new army.



GW instead relies on battleforces, vanguard, killteam, warcry, underworld etc... for their gateway

PP might well be hoping that their new sets are going to attract old customers back. So they aren't worried about new blood so much as old blood coming back. Which is a fair way to approach things; but its a risk because of how long they've been away and because not having newblood options is a poor move for long term growth.

The duel sets yeah, probably folk going halfsies or swapsies. But the Core Starter Sets (Indomitus type for clarity) are proper Intro Sets. Good variety of models and unit types, and pretty generously so despite the price tag.

Either use them as counts-as or as straight models on the table as some are being ported over. Others will be "this is new but it looks pretty much the same as old thing"


Same thing that Dystopian Wars players or GW players do. If its old and looks close enough its generally fine.

 Grot 6 wrote:
What are you supposed to do with the models you already have, bin them?

the local group is going to proxy the new stuff we the old models, at least for now
here WM/H never declined and we have a similar sized larger group since MkI, so they just switch to the new rules keep playing

 Grot 6 wrote:

As to Infinity, you can't compare these two games on the price point of the models, nor on game play.
They are not even in the same league.

of course you can't hence why the simple per model price from one game, without the context of game behind it makes not much sense, outside of those that only collect and paint but never play

 kodos wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Do you believe most gamers start new games because they saw the rulebook and were impressed by the mechanics? Or because they saw the miniatures?

this is easy, people play GW games for the models, and everything else for the mechanics

no one here started Warmachine because he liked the models more than GW models, people started it because they wanted an actual game to play
same with Infinity, Kings of War, Deadzone, SAGA etc. none of those are played because they models are so great and cheap that people don't care if the game is trash or not
and SAGA is a good example as the official Starter Set models are expensive and suck compared to others and people still buy it because it is the easiest way to start and play the game

WMH has a really small community of active players. Their pool of burnt former-players is pretty big, and pretty bitter judging by the Mk3 threads.

which is another reason for higher prices, your are expecting lower sales because of the smaller community (same way Space Marine Heroes are more expensive than line infantry)

There are lots and lots of games that are affordable rule sets and miniature agnostic

every single game were the rules do not come together with the models is miniature agnostic (because in this case you need to buy the models to get the rules and using something else would mean you buy doubles), this is also the reason why no one here plays a game because of the models, as you can use whatever you want with any rules you want
I must play this game because it has the models I like is a GW attitude, that people think applies to everything

 Ghool wrote:

Individual model prices are not the issue though.
I have no problem spending $20-30 for a single MCP model now.
The reason being is that my son and I can try out the game for $100.

but this is the main argument here, that total cost for a game are irrelevant and only the single model prices are important
that you can play MCP for 100 does not matter, a single model is the same price as a full unit from GW so the game is too expensive and you are failing for corporate propaganda to pay such high single model prices

so a WM/H Army for 200 is to expensive because the GW Box for 150 gets you more models, the fact that you need 2 boxes from GW to have an army does not matter just the model price

 Ghool wrote:

Fact is, they are charging too much to get into it, and as a result, I just won’t.

this is something very different, missing cheap intro sets is a problem and I hope they correct it later
though I can understand why they are not done first, as the current product is targeted at existing and new players who want to go all in and play, while old players who want to try it will do it with their existing collection anyway and I guess PP thinks there are not many new players who want to try it to make small starters worth it in the beginning

The point I’m trying to make here is that I’m not falling for corporate propaganda.
I think if you’re willing to spend that much money for a WM starter for a SINGLE PLAYER, then perhaps you’re the one falling for the marketing propaganda. And it’s crappy propaganda at that.
Understand my point - for my son and I to start WM….again…..I need to invest $560CAD for two starters.
We don’t need full armies to start, and anyone who does, is an established wargamer who has no issues spending $600 on two starter boxes, or even a single army. But I don’t NEED two ARMIES TO START.
I need a good introductory box for two of us to try out, as kids can be fickle and their tastes can change quickly. That kind of initial investment is a lot for two of us to play something.

Now if I’m falling for the propaganda as you so succinctly state, then why am I just not willing to spend over 5x what it costs for any other companies TWO PLAYER starter boxes?

I’m looking to get into this with two people, not just myself, except I have to foot the entire bill.
And PPs starters are just models. No books. No tokens. No terrain. Nothing but a few models.
Compare that to literally anything else out there (and one can argue comparisons aren’t valid all they want) and if you start thinking like a parent who wants to pay stuff with their kid, you might have an inkling of what I’m trying to argue here.
I can try out at least three or four different games and systems for the same price PP is asking.
Why would I do that? I’m already invested in WM and have tons of models. That are now largely useless until sometime around 2024.
If I want to get myself and kid into it, PP is asking a massive premium and commitment right off the hop.
As a parent who just wants to play some games with his kid, that price is absolutely bonkers.

if you just want to try things with your son, why the hell are you buying any models at all?
and specially if you already have a large collection
you already have everything you need at home to play with your son and don't need to buy anything to play, get the new rules and proxy, or play MkII or MkIII

you want to play a game and want to test different ones to know what you like and what not
you get the free rules, some tokens/bases and play the game
and don't need to buy a starter box to test things, you buy the starter box if you already know that this is your game and you want to play it

If I want to get myself and kid into it, PP is asking a massive premium and commitment right off the hop.

as is Games Workshop (though they want more)

honestly, for gaming with kids I would (and do) only use Mantic Rules/Games and some historicals (SAGA), everything else is not good, either because the rules are not easy to learn/remember (aka not kids friendly) or way to expensive to drop 2 forces in

if you want small Skirmish Game to play with your son, Deadzone or Vanguard would be my suggestions
and for a Mass Skirmish, SAGA Age of Magic (no free rules, but the books are not expensive either)

and you can use your Warmachine models for those as well

Generally people prefer to play miniature game with miniatues. Funny that.

and generally people "test" things before they buy something
and generally people don't care if companies say you are allowed official models only, if they play at home
funny that

 kodos wrote:
and generally people "test" things before they buy something
and generally people don't care if companies say you are allowed official models only, if they play at home
funny that

You really think this attitude is going to convince Ghool? The guy clearly wants to play the game with the miniatures the game was intended for. This is a relaunch product we're talking about here, people in Ghool's position are exactly the sort of folks PP should be making mk4 accessible to. Telling him 'sod off, just proxy with what you have' is really missing the point.

While the option to use proxies is always a thing for pretty much any game, it doesn't address the question of "impulse buys" in the LGS.

Not everyone does a bunch of internet research to go find out hey, the rules for X are free, we can download them and try it out with markers to see if we want to buy in. Sure, it's a completely reasonable thing to do. But, there are still folks out there who might bounce into an LGS and just look at all the goodies. This is where the current plan for PP "starters" I think is going to really fail to bring in anyone new. As others have pointed out, someone might see the box and think "hey, that looks kinda cool," then see the price tag for ONE army, realize they're gonna need two of those, and also then realize they're gonna have to go get an app for the rules and unit stats, and then look at another option that is a 2 player starter with rules and so on for half the price, and very possibly decide on going that route instead.

How much of the sales are like that? I have no data, but it isn't zero. PP's whole current starter sets definitely seem geared towards those who already know they're going "all in," and that market is significantly smaller, mostly going to be their current hardcore fans (though sounds like they may be losing some of those).

Veteran gamers are a little more likely to be ok with the idea of "grab the rules, try it out using some various models I already have," whether it's a new system or edition. Newer gamers don't always know that's realistically even an option, and the pressure to buy the models made for the game is definitely there.

Besides that, the attitude of “hur dur just proxy” brings in precisely zero revenue for PP. If PP doesn’t sell these new models, the game is a bust. Simple as that. And shutting off any revenue from peeps walking into an LGS looking for something new to try due to a crazy high initial buyin doesn’t help in the least.

The problem with the hard-reset PP are doing is they are rolling it out slowly so a lot of Vets who are currently players are going to feel a bit sour for a while.

Everyone knows it needs some big changes, but at the same time its a hard pill. Esp for any Hordes players who are left out for even longer.

Giving that large segment of existing players the only option of high priced sets to get back into the game fully, is risky.



I think that's the ultimate issue. We can certainly see the value of high priced sets. The issue is they rely on a very specific type of customer and are more niche than broad appeal and I think we all want to see PP going for broad appeal to help them and us get more people involved.

With the number of gaming stores that willl have been burned by the crash in popularity of warmachine & hordes PP may well be expecting not to have very much trade from gamestores initially as they'll want to see sales happening (and sales with the chance of a decent profit)

so introducing a lower cost way in may happen in a year or two assuming the re-launch goes OK (and the games proves to be at least playable) and PP has demonstrated they can sell enough of the expensive sets to suggest stocking these lower cost and so lower profit starters

 Grot 6 wrote:
I think that they are becoming victims of their own Page 5 propaganda

That boat long sailed. A lot of PPs player retention issues, as well as a lot of their recruitment issues, are directly the result of Page 5 "propaganda" making vets think that playing "like you got a pair" means that you ROFLStomp newbies into the ground when they first start out to teach them how to play through the school of hard knocks. Predictably, people who play a dozen games and never get to make it beyond turn 2 because they don't know all the possible tricks that can be used to nail them tend to develop a negative outlook on the game and don't want to continue playing. That and the ultra-competitive mindset that was resultantly instilled into the community made competitive format play the norm for casual play, to the point that in many cases players needed to show up to play their first games with full size steamroller-standard armies - opportunities to learn at small points values were rare for many.

The problem with the hard-reset PP are doing is they are rolling it out slowly so a lot of Vets who are currently players are going to feel a bit sour for a while.

I am firmly of the belief that this is 100% intentional. The existing community for the game is probably Privateer Press's biggest problem in terms of the success of being able to relaunch the game, alienating them in order to create room for new blood to comee in and experience the game in a more approachable way is 100% desirable. Those vets not being able to continue poisoning the well on day 1 can only be a good thing for the health of the game at large - if PP has 100 veteran players, and 80-90 of them sit out the first few months of the new edition and 50 new players come in, the 10-20 vets are going to have a harder time setting the "tone and standard" for the community and the 50 new players are going to establish the new direction for things. The remaining 80-90 players may largely trickle back in over time, but if over the same time period another 200-300 new players join (which is ultimately the goal) because the game and community is more approachable and friendly, then the vets will become the minority and no longer "control the narrative" as it were for the way they think the game should be played.

 kodos wrote:
if you just want to try things with your son, why the hell are you buying any models at all?
and specially if you already have a large collection
you already have everything you need at home to play with your son and don't need to buy anything to play, get the new rules and proxy, or play MkII or MkIII

you want to play a game and want to test different ones to know what you like and what not
you get the free rules, some tokens/bases and play the game
and don't need to buy a starter box to test things, you buy the starter box if you already know that this is your game and you want to play it

If I want to get myself and kid into it, PP is asking a massive premium and commitment right off the hop.

as is Games Workshop (though they want more)

honestly, for gaming with kids I would (and do) only use Mantic Rules/Games and some historicals (SAGA), everything else is not good, either because the rules are not easy to learn/remember (aka not kids friendly) or way to expensive to drop 2 forces in

if you want small Skirmish Game to play with your son, Deadzone or Vanguard would be my suggestions
and for a Mass Skirmish, SAGA Age of Magic (no free rules, but the books are not expensive either)

and you can use your Warmachine models for those as well

Clearly you have never walked into an LGS with a 12 year old.
‘Hey dad that looks super cool! Can we get it and try it out?’
‘Sure son, but we won’t buy those models. We will download everything for free, and test it at home!’

Go ahead and see what that kids face looks like when you tell them that. And then see if they actually want to get into it afterwards….
It’s also the reason why we play MCP - recognizable characters he knows and loves from the movies and comics. If we wanted to play with what I have, and we do, then I want to appeal to what my kid find aesthetically pleasing, which is not everything I already have. And go ahead an plop a whole army in front of a 12 year old and ask them to assemble and paint the stuff. Most times they’ll just be overwhelmed and walk away due there being a whole army to paint and learn instead of a single model or three.

Kids are fickle man, and it’s not at all about rules.
We’ve been gaming together for years. It’s all about how the models look to a kid. This is the most important bit - the kid wants his stuff to look like what he likes, and not what I like. My collection is what I like and not him. If I really want him to get into wargaming, am I going to buy and play with stuff he doesn’t really like? Or if I want him to get into painting, am I going to force him to paint stuff that doesn’t appeal to his tastes?

And when said models are super pricey (and yes so is MCP, but I can buy one or two models and be good for a few months) and only come in $200 starters, and $175 expansions, it’s not worth it to get into.
Spreading out the purchases and being to able to get some models that my son enjoys is how I can get him into the more hardcore aspects of wargaming.
This seems to be lost on quite a few folks in this thread.

Kids like stuff to look cool. That’s why the rules being free doesn’t matter.

I mean - thats how I got into wargames as a 12-13 year old. Granted, it was pitched to me less as "see if you like the rules of the game" and more "see which faction you like the rules of and want to collect and play". MCP is easy because (AFAIK) theres no real restriction on which models can work together, but in a game like 40k or Warmachine thats not really true, so he might like the looks of models from several factions... but he can only pick one (unless of course you got deep pockets and are willing to feed a habit). Your 12 year old has more critical logic/reasoning skills and patience than you give them credit for, I am sure if you pitched it as a case of "you will get minis, but first lets play 2-3 games to figure out which minis it is you want", I can't imagine them not being all over that like white on rice.

Its all how you present the sales pitch my friend.