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Who else is buying this game for me to play against?
As subset of the existing and former player base. Not sure if I have heard of any new people getting in (in any significant numbers)
The problem with new people is always
a) how do they find out about it?
and
b) how do they start a group from scratch?
PP really needs the existing players to carry the banner for them, and I'm not sure that's going to happen.
They could use volunteers perhaps? Call them gangpressers, something like that.
Yeah, and it’d be really cheap for them to get two demo armies….oh…..wait…..
Yeah there's another problem with the super high priced entry point. Any attempt to get any kind of community rep system or even just one person trying to tempt people outside of it is going to face a huge upfront cost. £300 UK for two starter armies alone. No paints, brushes, dice or anything.
Yes that's a lot of models, but at the same time that's a huge up front cost for anyone to shoulder to try and get people into a new game. For that same cost you can get several armies for starters from most other firms; or just buy into an existing running game. Infinity, Dropfleet/Zone, Dystopian Wars, Malifaux - heck for many of them that amount of money gets you a very well rounded army with room for changing up what you take.
Maybe PP should be looking into a £100 (at most) set with two forces specifically for starter matches.
Seems like we're in a price window in which, for the price of two 3d-printed starter armies, you can go and buy yourself a medium sized printer like a Saturn, and resin.
Well... dunno. Looks high.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/26 16:23:09
Did not see it mentioned and apoligies if already referenced, but I though Discourse Miniatures did a good summation of the problems with Privateer Press and MKIV. Needless to say, given what I have read so far in this thread and such, seems MKIV's prospects are not good.
The point GW could have had a 'vs.' match versus PP passed unnoticed years ago, mostly when PP adopted the worst aspects of the GW playbook and own-goaled their own player base.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/08/26 16:58:14
Lord of Deeds wrote: Did not see it mentioned and apoligies if already referenced, but I though Discourse Miniatures did a good summation of the problems with Privateer Press and MKIV. Needless to say, given what I have read so far in this thread and such, seems MKIV's prospects are not good.
Honestly, don't give to bits about what Discourse Miniatures has to say about, well, anything. I've watched a few of their videos, and they're click-baiting trolls of the worst type IMO.
All this doom and gloom aside...ALOT of people did buy the starter sets at Gencon. And they sold so many of the starters sets online that that had to cut off ordering cause they couldn't keep up with how many were ordered. That cant be bad
So , there is some evidence alot of people are into this. I think that people will pull out their old models, see how the new game works ..and if it works well then maybe get some people into it. Build slow and let the game speak for itself (if its good and fun).
Also...and this may be anecdotal...people in my area drop 2 hundred on a game all the time. People who never once went to forgeworld payed 300 for that Horus Heresy starter set (with no intention of sharing or splitting) without blinking an eye. I don't think 200 usd is as much a barrier as some do. (none of this apples to UK prices of which I know nothing about)
Lord of Deeds wrote: Did not see it mentioned and apoligies if already referenced, but I though Discourse Miniatures did a good summation of the problems with Privateer Press and MKIV. Needless to say, given what I have read so far in this thread and such, seems MKIV's prospects are not good.
Honestly, don't give to bits about what Discourse Miniatures has to say about, well, anything. I've watched a few of their videos, and they're click-baiting trolls of the worst type IMO.
I made it 1 min into this video and had to quit. Obvious troll is trolling....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/26 18:15:56
Thing is if HH fails you can still use most of those models as counts as in 40K. Plus its a GW game, anything GW makes has a powerful following. You turn up to any wargame club that isn't historical you can generally guarantee they play 40K and/or AoS and likely a few other GW games.IF they don't chance are convincing someone to start isn't that hard.
Thing is the issue isn't that £150 for a set is bad, its that £150 is the gateway product PP wants you to buy and is the only one they are putting out.
As the Gencon Starter sets showed, there 100% is still interest in PP. And those kind of starter set are just what the market has right now. If anything cheaper than a GW starter set, cheaper than an army pack from Infinity or Dropfleet. So ideal for getting people tempted into the game.
The market can take high priced sets, but what we are worried about is that the market won't take them as much as they could take a cheaper starter set. Especially for a game franchise that's been bleeding players for a long time and which needs to get old blood back and bring in fresh blood.
Honestly best thing is if PP say that those Gencon starters sold so well that they are putting them into general production for release.
Honestly best thing is if PP say that those Gencon starters sold so well that they are putting them into general production for release.
I wonder if eventually they will do this for future factions- these are very attractive items, and given that they contain the C warcaster as well as jacks people will likely want multiples of, they can just swap out the C Warcaster SKU for these and have a great intro product without any additional SKU bloat.
We'll see. If things keep selling well, I'm sure they'll look at their line and keep trying to tweak it if things go well.
I increasingly agree that Caster C + Warjack A + Warjack B should be a standing gateway product. Do away with the individual SKUs and bundle them together, individual Warjack A/B can be made available for direct sales, no point pushing those to retail because between the Caster C/Warjack A/B combo box and the $200 starter set anyone serious about playing a given faction is going to end up with 2 of each anyway, and that seems like it should be more than enough. If they really want some lower cost items, then they can add two individually packed units or solos per faction (or one of each) in the $20-30 range or whatever to be released to retail. It keeps the SKU count constant but creates a nice "bridge" for players starting with the Caster C/Warjack A/B set - instead of scaling up to a $150 or $200 box, you can drop $50 or whatever for a smaller bump and add a couple non-jacks to your list for slightly larger games. It'll give each faction just a *little* more variety, and also increase each factions "lifetime revenue" (or whatever its called) per customer, as anyone collecting the faction in full will end up buying just a little bit more stuff than they will currently.
After sitting through the same channels attempts to convince people that the new Horus Heresy was a very bad thing, actually, I can't take that channel to be anything other than gakky clickbait relying on negatie hot-takes to farm clicks.
Honestly, don't give to bits about what Discourse Miniatures has to say about, well, anything. I've watched a few of their videos, and they're click-baiting trolls of the worst type IMO.
Absolutely. They channel has monetized concern trolling and turned it into an artform.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
I've gotten to where I block any channel suggested to me with hyperbolic nonsense in the title. Dead, Doom, Disaster, Failure, etc, etc, etc are words I've decided to actively start punishing in what ways I can be it in games or movies or whatever content someone is trying to try and stir up controversy. People spend so much more time getting worked up over things than enjoying them and I'm just kind of over it all. Spending an hour not really liking something is better than spending half an hour listening to someone tell me why I might not like it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
chaos0xomega wrote: I increasingly agree that Caster C + Warjack A + Warjack B should be a standing gateway product. Do away with the individual SKUs and bundle them together, individual Warjack A/B can be made available for direct sales, no point pushing those to retail because between the Caster C/Warjack A/B combo box and the $200 starter set anyone serious about playing a given faction is going to end up with 2 of each anyway, and that seems like it should be more than enough. If they really want some lower cost items, then they can add two individually packed units or solos per faction (or one of each) in the $20-30 range or whatever to be released to retail. It keeps the SKU count constant but creates a nice "bridge" for players starting with the Caster C/Warjack A/B set - instead of scaling up to a $150 or $200 box, you can drop $50 or whatever for a smaller bump and add a couple non-jacks to your list for slightly larger games. It'll give each faction just a *little* more variety, and also increase each factions "lifetime revenue" (or whatever its called) per customer, as anyone collecting the faction in full will end up buying just a little bit more stuff than they will currently.
Given that the individual Warcaster/Warjack SKUs aren't due until mid-late Nov/early Dec, its entirely possible that PP recognizes this already and might change their plans. One can certainly hope at least.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/26 19:24:34
When I see a cartoony shocked face on the thumbnail, and the title uses words like that, I know it's just clickbait BS. I wish everyone would start ignoring those videos and force content creators to actually make content worth watching instead of relying on clickbait and shock factor.
Part of the issue is those clickbait titles and keywords and comments are what Google looks for. You're almost shoe-horned into using them because that's what the search engine optimising systems are looking for; advising you to use and what google is hunting for.
It's why so many popular things are so click-baity. Because once you learn that system and once you play that system - it works. It generates you those clicks, views, watches and that helps generate the interest that gets you views which gets you money from sponsors and advertising.
High production, click bait videos are sadly what gets the attention on YouTube.
Anyway, back to the actual topic.
Has anyone here tried the new MKIV rules. I haven't had chance to try them out, but after reading them they read like a decent progression of the game.
I'm still on the fence mainly due to how even at legacy it will mean a lot of models I have are not used. Got a few 5 model 40mm based units, which are going down to 3 models per unit max. Slightly annoying.
The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun. The two should never be confused.
Yes, while a 10-strong unit can be played as two fives, a 5-strong one will have 2 models always sitting on the shelf, which is a waste of good models.
stonehorse wrote: High production, click bait videos are sadly what gets the attention on YouTube.
Anyway, back to the actual topic.
Has anyone here tried the new MKIV rules. I haven't had chance to try them out, but after reading them they read like a decent progression of the game.
I'm still on the fence mainly due to how even at legacy it will mean a lot of models I have are not used. Got a few 5 model 40mm based units, which are going down to 3 models per unit max. Slightly annoying.
My friend and I are trying it today. I'll report on our thoughts
stonehorse wrote: High production, click bait videos are sadly what gets the attention on YouTube.
Anyway, back to the actual topic.
Has anyone here tried the new MKIV rules. I haven't had chance to try them out, but after reading them they read like a decent progression of the game.
I'm still on the fence mainly due to how even at legacy it will mean a lot of models I have are not used. Got a few 5 model 40mm based units, which are going down to 3 models per unit max. Slightly annoying.
My friend and I are trying it today. I'll report on our thoughts
I look forward to reading your findings.
The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun. The two should never be confused.
Lord of Deeds wrote: Did not see it mentioned and apoligies if already referenced, but I though Discourse Miniatures did a good summation of the problems with Privateer Press and MKIV. Needless to say, given what I have read so far in this thread and such, seems MKIV's prospects are not good.
What's amusing is that the rest of the video thumbnails are about the collapse/failure/doom of GW/their products.
But I can't be the only one who feels there's a real hope from a lot of people that MK4 fails. It's like people got burnt by PP once and are desperate for them not to succeed, but will happily give GW infinite chances.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/08/28 11:11:16
I think some of it is people protecting themselves. They talk about how much MKIV will fail as a means to help justify and keep justifying to themselves not to invest into it. They think it might fail (or at least not do as well as they hope) and they thus want to avoid that disappointment. They are still keens so they have to constantly reinforce.
Sites like Discourse Miniatures however are just purely in the whole doom and gloom for the fact that it works super easily to generate attention with clicks and fanbases and thus generate income. Yes they'll put out positive articles every so often, but by and large they'll do the doom train to generate interest.
Downside is when you start watching one or two of that kind of video, youtube pushes them on you more and more with its algorithm
I think there is also an element of PP burned me I hate them. That happens and the internet echo-chambers that up and can sometimes get to quite stupid results as a result.
I think the proof in the pudding will be when PP launch MKIV. I think many of us are really hoping they do well and are more concerned right now that PP's opening bid is perhaps well thought out for their back end manufacture and investment, but perhaps not the best in terms of the customer side of things.
Certainly early signs are strong when they sold out of the cheaper starter packs and had to stop taking orders of more.
I'd like for them to work. Honestly I wouldn't mind a fun secondary game to 40k. I just could never get into it earlier because of the style of play (very gotcha) and honestly our local scene was full of get goods.
So if they can fix that I'd be down to try it.
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
stonehorse wrote: High production, click bait videos are sadly what gets the attention on YouTube.
Anyway, back to the actual topic.
Has anyone here tried the new MKIV rules. I haven't had chance to try them out, but after reading them they read like a decent progression of the game.
I'm still on the fence mainly due to how even at legacy it will mean a lot of models I have are not used. Got a few 5 model 40mm based units, which are going down to 3 models per unit max. Slightly annoying.
My friend and I are trying it today. I'll report on our thoughts
I look forward to reading your findings.
We played a 30pt game between cryx and menoth in which cryx got owned(menoth stuff seemed crazy strong). Its amazing how fast we fell into remembering the game. The no facing and the inch engagement range really make the game feel more streamlined. I had forgotten how much the game rely on the little icons...so..that was a learning curve of "what the feth does this do? moments. The "Gotchas" are still there if you don't ask your opponent what a unit does, but that was on me cause I was playing hard and fast and just trying to get back into the game. We had some real nice tactical moments but yeah..you gotta know your charge distances or your gonna get hammered. The rules are great. I'm not sure how this is gonna look when it comes to unit balance, list building etc etc....but it was hella fun to put my old models on the table and play again. I'm looking forward to my starter box to see how prime is gonna feel since I assume there focus is gonna be making sure thats all balanced
I think some of it is people protecting themselves. They talk about how much MKIV will fail as a means to help justify and keep justifying to themselves not to invest into it.
I really do not want PP to fail. i think the direction they are going with 3d printing and the optional multipart sku reducing kits are a brilliant idea. there need to be more competition to GW. that said i already play 10 different systems.....my problem is with the beta rules.
The no facing and the inch engagement range really make the game feel more streamlined
Right there is the problem for me. it is a skirmish game, i am not interested in it being AOS or 8th ed 40K "streamlined" . i like the way it is. and since our group doesn't do steamroller, themed lists and generally do not play over 50 point battles we have not run into the issues other players complain about.
I have watched video battle report play tests and i have read the beta rules. i do not need to play test it myself to dislike what i see.
GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear/MCP
Lord of Deeds wrote: Did not see it mentioned and apoligies if already referenced, but I though Discourse Miniatures did a good summation of the problems with Privateer Press and MKIV. Needless to say, given what I have read so far in this thread and such, seems MKIV's prospects are not good.
What's amusing is that the rest of the video thumbnails are about the collapse/failure/doom of GW/their products.
But I can't be the only one who feels there's a real hope from a lot of people that MK4 fails. It's like people got burnt by PP once and are desperate for them not to succeed, but will happily give GW infinite chances.
Hulksmash wrote: I'd like for them to work. Honestly I wouldn't mind a fun secondary game to 40k. I just could never get into it earlier because of the style of play (very gotcha) and honestly our local scene was full of get goods.
So if they can fix that I'd be down to try it.
The problem with WMHDs being a "secondary game" is that a few years ago they built a narrative as an alternative/competitor to 40k as a "primary game", but the collapse of the game/company that followed means that its now seen as a failure or as an also-ran, etc. This poisons its perception in the community and means that anything short of it being able to compete directly with 40k as a primary game will result in it being perceived as a failure in the community narrative. Its a tough position for the game and Privateer Press to be in, and a strong cautionary tale about the risks of marketing yourself as a direct alternative to the market leader.
Is their new production method something FLGS can wholesale order from? Or is it more direct to customer only?
Yes, but thats the way their old production method was too. The difficulty Europe and the UK had in getting WMHDs was due in large part to distributors in the region not wanting to carry the product, meaning stores could only order directly from Privateer Press, but the costs of PP sending product from the far side of the US to Europe was prohibitively expensive to the point that overseas retailers didn't want to bother unless they were placing very large orders that would justify the cost. PP tried to set up an EU/UK distribution center but for various reasons it didn't really pan out very well. A big part of it is that retailers are overwhelmed with product releases and if its not something they can order through their distributors they just won't bother because theres a lot of additional overhead added having to source products directly from publishers (like PP) via separate trade accounts vs just using a distributor as a one-stop-shop.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
Toofast wrote: 9th 40k has way more gotcha moments than WMH ever did IMO
It’s not just a gotcha moment in WMH tho, it’s a gotcha game over, time to pack up your models because casterkill. 40K isn’t that level
there is a new play style..where only casters can kill casters..other units just stun your caster. so casterkill doesn't just end your game out of nowhere
I'm also saying gotcha in player style not just moments. I find in 40k most opponents actively try not to gotcha. That was not my, rather limited I admit, experience with warmahordes 2ed
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
