I was reading up on the new shooting rules and it does not mention that I have to declare, from the beginning of my units shooting, which weapon I have to fire. So, can I do the following?

Battle sister squad with heavy flamer and melta gun. Sister superior has a combi flamer.

Fire heavy flamer first. If there are enough remaining models, fire the flamer profile of the combi weapon. If there are not many models left, choose to fire the boltgun profile instead, saving the flamer. Possible? Does it work this way?

Assuming that differently named flamers fire at different times. (There's still this raging debate. Of course I would like to fire all templates together, but it's not universally accepted.)

Sounds ok to me. As I read it, you don't have to declare in advance which 'weapon' the combi is firing as until you reach that 'select a weapon' stage.

And yeah, sorry, Heavy Flamer and Flamer (which the combi counts as due to combi-weapon rules would fire separately.

This restriction is great for trolling models with Jink too. Say you have a chapter master who has yet to fire his orbital bombardment. Declare he is shooting at that skimmer and go to pick up the large blast template, but then ask if your opponent wants to jink. He says yes? Put the large blast down and declare the chapter master is throwing a krak grenade. Enjoy the lulz

That's some WAAC gak right there.

Best to save that for the GTs

 Mulletdude wrote:
This restriction is great for trolling models with Jink too. Say you have a chapter master who has yet to fire his orbital bombardment. Declare he is shooting at that skimmer and go to pick up the large blast template, but then ask if your opponent wants to jink. He says yes? Put the large blast down and declare the chapter master is throwing a krak grenade. Enjoy the lulz

Then the opponent says "No, on second thought I wont if you are just throwing a Krak grenade..."

Doesn't the timing create an issue?

No, you need to let the opponent know which weapon you are shooting before you declare a target.

 Lobomalo wrote:
No, you need to let the opponent know which weapon you are shooting before you declare a target.

False.

1. Nominate Unit to Shoot.
2. Choose a Target.
3. Select a Weapon.

Jink is done during step 2, so yes you can change what you shoot based on them Jinking.

 Lobomalo wrote:
No, you need to let the opponent know which weapon you are shooting before you declare a target.

Target is declared before the weapon is.

JinxDragon wrote:
Doesn't the timing create an issue?

Actually yes it does, since you declare Jink before any to hit rolls are made, so you can fire whatever weapons you want at a target depending on if it jinks or not.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
No, you need to let the opponent know which weapon you are shooting before you declare a target.

False.

1. Nominate Unit to Shoot.
2. Choose a Target.
3. Select a Weapon.

Jink is done during step 2, so yes you can change what you shoot based on them Jinking.

Jink is done before rolls to-hit, not on choose a target

From the rules

"The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made."

So you have until they start shooting which is right after the select which weapon to use

The timing begins in step 2, continues up until he is about to roll to-hit

 Lobomalo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
No, you need to let the opponent know which weapon you are shooting before you declare a target.

False.

1. Nominate Unit to Shoot.
2. Choose a Target.
3. Select a Weapon.

Jink is done during step 2, so yes you can change what you shoot based on them Jinking.

Jink is done before rolls to-hit, not on choose a target

From the rules

"The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made."

So you have until they start shooting which is right after the select which weapon to use

The timing begins in step 2, continues up until he is about to roll to-hit

It's cool - I don't mind that you didn't read the entire rule.

When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink.

When is a unit selected as a target for a shooting attack? Oh - step 2. Before a weapon is selected.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
No, you need to let the opponent know which weapon you are shooting before you declare a target.

False.

1. Nominate Unit to Shoot.
2. Choose a Target.
3. Select a Weapon.

Jink is done during step 2, so yes you can change what you shoot based on them Jinking.

Jink is done before rolls to-hit, not on choose a target

From the rules

"The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made."

So you have until they start shooting which is right after the select which weapon to use

The timing begins in step 2, continues up until he is about to roll to-hit

It's cool - I don't mind that you didn't read the entire rule.

When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink.

When is a unit selected as a target for a shooting attack? Oh - step 2. Before a weapon is selected.

Removed due to peoples sensitivity

Here is the entire rule.

Jink: "When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made. If the unit Jinks, all models in the unit with this special rule gain a 4+ cover save until the start of their next Movement phase, but they can only fire Snap Shots until the end of their next turn."

Notice the word may, and then notice how it gives you a timing when you have to make a decision by.

You can make it the moment you are targeted or up until rolls to hit have been made. The rule states a time, you can then follow apply the rule at any time within that time, so, as I said.

The beginning of Step 2, up until rolls to-hit have been made.

What? Don't you roll all the wound at once still? Fire the first flamer, then the second heavy flamer. Then roll to wound, or is this now totally wrong?

 Lobomalo wrote:
<personal attack removed>
Here is the entire rule.

Jink: "When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made. If the unit Jinks, all models in the unit with this special rule gain a 4+ cover save until the start of their next Movement phase, but they can only fire Snap Shots until the end of their next turn."

Notice the word may, and then notice how it gives you a timing when you have to make a decision by.

May means it's optional - you aren't forced to Jink.
The timing is actually far earlier in the sentence - "When a unit ... with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack..."
If you make it during step 3 (choosing a weapon) did you make the declaration when the unit was selected as a target? Or did you make it after the unit was selected as a target? The rule requires you do it when.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

darkcloak wrote:
What? Don't you roll all the wound at once still? Fire the first flamer, then the second heavy flamer. Then roll to wound, or is this now totally wrong?

No, 7th edition completely changed the shooting rules.

 milkboy wrote:
I was reading up on the new shooting rules and it does not mention that I have to declare, from the beginning of my units shooting, which weapon I have to fire. So, can I do the following?

Battle sister squad with heavy flamer and melta gun. Sister superior has a combi flamer.

Fire heavy flamer first. If there are enough remaining models, fire the flamer profile of the combi weapon. If there are not many models left, choose to fire the boltgun profile instead, saving the flamer. Possible? Does it work this way?

Assuming that differently named flamers fire at different times. (There's still this raging debate. Of course I would like to fire all templates together, but it's not universally accepted.)

Since no one pointed it out earlier, I will.

The Heavy Flamer and the Flamer are 2 different weapons, therefore you would have to shoot them separately no matter what.

Now, if you had fired bolters first, you would have to make the decision whether or not to use the combi or the bolter profile when you a selecting which models with bolters will fire

The rule gives you up until the roll to-hit. You then have until that type to decide to Jink.

What you are going on is merely "your" interpretation of the rule as it stands in the text.

 Lobomalo wrote:
The rule gives you up until the roll to-hit. You then have until that type to decide to Jink.

No, it doesn't say that. It says the decision must be made before rolling to hit.
It also says to declare *when* the unit is targeted. So "my" interpretation of the rules follows all the rules.
Yours explicitly breaks one. Why is yours correct again?

Mine is breaking no rules. You are reading it as if the only time you can do it is the moment you are declared as a target which, if you read the following sentence, specifically tells you when the time for you to Jink ends.

At best, what will happen in yet another pointless argument, one side will weigh in and read the rule, understanding only the first part, the other side will come in, read the entire rule, understand the timing issue and, 9 pages later, the thread is closed when the moderator says GW will need a FAQ.

To the OP.

The timing in the second line is the one you would follow when attempting to Jink.

Also, you would need to declare separately for the combi-weapon

"When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made."

It must be before To Hit rolls, when the unit is declared as a target. There are two conditions to be met here, and rigeld's reading fulfills both of them. Lobomalo's reading only fulfills one.

My opponent says, "I'm shooting your jetbike!" I say, "I will Jink!" This is when the target is chosen, and before To Hits are made. No rules are broken.
My opponent says, "I'm shooting your jetbike!" I say, "Ok!" Opponent says, "I'm using a D-weapon!" I say, "I will Jink!" Unfortunately for me, it's too late, since we've moved past the Targeting stage and into the Picking Weapon stage.

 Lobomalo wrote:
Mine is breaking no rules. You are reading it as if the only time you can do it is the moment you are declared as a target which, if you read the following sentence, specifically tells you when the time for you to Jink ends.

How does declaring you'll Jink after a weapon has been selected not break the rule that says to do it when you're targeted?
Please answer that - as far as I can tell it does break that rule.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
"When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made."

It must be before To Hit rolls, when the unit is declared as a target. There are two conditions to be met here, and rigeld's reading fulfills both of them. Lobomalo's reading only fulfills one.

My opponent says, "I'm shooting your jetbike!" I say, "I will Jink!" This is when the target is chosen, and before To Hits are made. No rules are broken.
My opponent says, "I'm shooting your jetbike!" I say, "Ok!" Opponent says, "I'm using a D-weapon!" I say, "I will Jink!" Unfortunately for me, it's too late, since we've moved past the Targeting stage and into the Picking Weapon stage.

Except that the you have up until to-hit rolls are made which is after selecting a weapon.

 Lobomalo wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
"When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made."

It must be before To Hit rolls, when the unit is declared as a target. There are two conditions to be met here, and rigeld's reading fulfills both of them. Lobomalo's reading only fulfills one.

My opponent says, "I'm shooting your jetbike!" I say, "I will Jink!" This is when the target is chosen, and before To Hits are made. No rules are broken.
My opponent says, "I'm shooting your jetbike!" I say, "Ok!" Opponent says, "I'm using a D-weapon!" I say, "I will Jink!" Unfortunately for me, it's too late, since we've moved past the Targeting stage and into the Picking Weapon stage.

Except that the you have up until to-hit rolls are made which is after selecting a weapon.

How is that correct when the rule also says that you must declare when you are targeted?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
"When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made."

It must be before To Hit rolls, when the unit is declared as a target. There are two conditions to be met here, and rigeld's reading fulfills both of them. Lobomalo's reading only fulfills one.

My opponent says, "I'm shooting your jetbike!" I say, "I will Jink!" This is when the target is chosen, and before To Hits are made. No rules are broken.
My opponent says, "I'm shooting your jetbike!" I say, "Ok!" Opponent says, "I'm using a D-weapon!" I say, "I will Jink!" Unfortunately for me, it's too late, since we've moved past the Targeting stage and into the Picking Weapon stage.

Except that the you have up until to-hit rolls are made which is after selecting a weapon.

How is that correct when the rule also says that you must declare when you are targeted?

The rule states when you have to & when you need to make this decision by.

Edit:

After reading through other topics you have posted in, it is best that I step away from the conversation before the thread gets closed and nothing is solved. You have made it clear in this conversation and in others that you simply like to bait people into unnecessary arguments and I am not going to engage you in this.

Now if you can somehow find a way to dispute the timing mechanic of the Jink window closing, and have either rule backing to go along with this or a convincing reason as to why this does not work I may re-engage in the discussion.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
Mine is breaking no rules. You are reading it as if the only time you can do it is the moment you are declared as a target which, if you read the following sentence, specifically tells you when the time for you to Jink ends.

How does declaring you'll Jink after a weapon has been selected not break the rule that says to do it when you're targeted?
Please answer that - as far as I can tell it does break that rule.

The rule does not require you declare when targeted. The rule gives you permission to use Jink and requires you to declare it before TO HIT rolls are made, which is after declaring the weapon.

 Lobomalo wrote:
The rule states when you have to & when you need to make this decision by.

No. It states when you have to do it and an end for any opportunity to do it.
It does not say "You can declare you're Jinking any time between being targeted and the first to hit roll" - which is what you're saying it does.

After reading through other topics you have posted in, it is best that I step away from the conversation before the thread gets closed and nothing is solved. You have made it clear in this conversation and in others that you simply like to bait people into unnecessary arguments and I am not going to engage you in this.

Now if you can somehow find a way to dispute the timing mechanic of the Jink window closing, and have either rule backing to go along with this or a convincing reason as to why this does not work I may re-engage in the discussion.

You don't need a reason to decide not to participate in an honest discussion, but if you think my behavior is below the board please feel free to report me.
I can assure you I am not baiting anyone - I'm trying to have a polite discussion.

I've shown you why your assertions are incorrect - your method literally breaks a rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
Mine is breaking no rules. You are reading it as if the only time you can do it is the moment you are declared as a target which, if you read the following sentence, specifically tells you when the time for you to Jink ends.

How does declaring you'll Jink after a weapon has been selected not break the rule that says to do it when you're targeted?
Please answer that - as far as I can tell it does break that rule.

The rule does not require you declare when targeted. The rule gives you permission to use Jink and requires you to declare it before TO HIT rolls are made, which is after declaring the weapon.

It doesn't?

When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink.

Is your copy different from mine? Or do you have a different definition of "When"?
When X happens, you may do Y. That doesn't give you allowance to do Y later.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
Mine is breaking no rules. You are reading it as if the only time you can do it is the moment you are declared as a target which, if you read the following sentence, specifically tells you when the time for you to Jink ends.

How does declaring you'll Jink after a weapon has been selected not break the rule that says to do it when you're targeted?
Please answer that - as far as I can tell it does break that rule.

The rule does not require you declare when targeted. The rule gives you permission to use Jink and requires you to declare it before TO HIT rolls are made, which is after declaring the weapon.

This is my reading of the rules too.

English is pretty clear on the purpose of the conditional particle "may"

As in, it is not necessary, it is simply "Allowed".

In fact, if you simply ignore this part of the rules (as a rule that conditions with "May" literally has no bearing on this aspect of the game)

Then you are left with "Declare the jinx before to-hit rolls are made"

SO the second you pick up the dice to roll, meaning you've had to decide which weapon you're using, I can jinx.

This argument of "IT ONLY FULFILLS ONE CONDITION, MINE FULFILLS BOTH" is fallacious. You're basing the fulfillment of the rule on your own interpretation being true.

bryceloop wrote:
This is my reading of the rules too.

English is pretty clear on the purpose of the conditional particle "may"

As in, it is not necessary, it is simply "Allowed".

In fact, if you simply ignore this part of the rules (as a rule that conditions with "May" literally has no bearing on this aspect of the game)

Then you are left with "Declare the jinx before to-hit rolls are made"

No, you're not.

You're left with "The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made." What decision? Oh - the decision to delcare Jink. When is that decision made? Oh - when the unit is targeted.
Thanks for helping me understand that.

This argument of "IT ONLY FULFILLS ONE CONDITION, MINE FULFILLS BOTH" is fallacious. You're basing the fulfillment of the rule on your own interpretation being true.

Not at all. Please, explain how declaring Jink after step 3 fulfills the requirement to declare Jink when the unit is targeted.
This isn't my interpretation, it's literally what the rules say:

When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink.

Although it's not exactly the original topic, I tend to agree with bryceloop. You are allowed to declare jink when target. This, the window for you to declare jink is from the moment that unit is targeted, up to just before the to hit dice is rolled. As long as you declare it within this time, it satisfies the rule. Because the word "may" was used to indicate "anytime from here on", up till the final moment of dice roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If the wording has been "must" declare when targeted, then it would be done before weapon selection.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oops. I mean if it is phrased "you must declare if you wish to jink"

When I say "Banana" you may jump. You have to jump before I say "Gotcha". If you jump, you get $5.

I say "Banana". You do nothing. I say "Orange." You jump. I say "Gotcha." You expect $5?

Because you sure as heck didn't jump when I said "Banana".

From my rulebook Rigeld

When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made. If the unit Jinks, all models in the unit with this special rule gain a 4+ cover save until the start of their next Movement phase, but they can only fire Snap Shots until the end of their next turn.

The first sentence gives permission to Jink after being declared a target. (MAY is permissive.) The second sentence is a restriction on when the ability must be used. (MUST is restrictive.)

Fairly plain English.

Fragile wrote:
From my rulebook Rigeld

When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made. If the unit Jinks, all models in the unit with this special rule gain a 4+ cover save until the start of their next Movement phase, but they can only fire Snap Shots until the end of their next turn.

The first sentence gives permission to Jink after being declared a target. (MAY is permissive.) The second sentence is a restriction on when the ability must be used. (MUST is restrictive.)

Fairly plain English.

The underlined is incorrect.
It gives permission to declare *when* you're declared a target - not after. Note the difference and please correctly quote rules next time.
May gives permission to declare when you're targeted.

I don't see "not after" mentioned in the rules though.

 milkboy wrote:
I don't see "not after" mentioned in the rules though.

I do see the word "When".

When X happens, you may do Y.
Does that mean you can do Y at some time after X happens?

Why not? When I get up, I can make my own breakfast. Does that mean I have to scramble eggs in bed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I must do it before I go off for work. No?

Well, you're the only person in this thread basing an argument off implied semantics.

Your interpretation of the logic wrong.

If this were code, it's not "Do X if Y"

It's
...
JINX = FALSE;
do{
/* INSERT shooting phase steps here UP TO THE POINT TO-HIT ROLLS ARE BEING DECLARE */
cout << "Jinx?" ;
cin >> JINX
}while ( JINX == FALSE || ToHitRollsReady == FALSE)

Call TOHITROLLS ();

 milkboy wrote:
Why not? When I get up, I can make my own breakfast. Does that mean I have to scramble eggs in bed?

No - but *when* you wake up, you make breakfast. You don't do other stuff before you make breakfast - when X, do Y.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bryceloop wrote:
Well, you're the only person in this thread basing an argument off implied semantics.

I'm also the only person not advocating literally breaking a rule.

If this were code, it's not "Do X if Y"

It's When X, you may do Y. If you're going to summarize my argument at least do it correctly. Also, it's Jink, not Jinx.

I usually wash my face and if the occasion arises, sometimes I pass some water. :p


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But all is good as long as I make my breakfast before work.

 milkboy wrote:
I usually wash my face and if the occasion arises, sometimes I pass some water. :p


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But all is good as long as I make my breakfast before work.

In that case, when you wake up you wash your face.
Later on you make breakfast, but that's after you wash your face.

Do you understand what my point is? "When X happens, you may do Y." is not the same as "When X happens, you have until Z to do Y." The former is what the rules say, the latter is what you're pretending the rules say.

Popping in, read the statements, decided it marks the beginning and end of the option availability window.

My experience for this scenario is mostly with card games but the rulings tend to acknowledge that there is a beginning condition for when you may decide to act and an ending condition for when it's too late. When targeted opens the opportunity window as even past the targeting step, the unit is still being targeted. Nothing has made it cease being targeted. The opportunity response window closes when the to hit roll is made per the RAW. To say otherwise is to ignore the limit on To Hit in favor of a more literal interpretation which breaks the spirit of the ruling. It is clearly identified that the To Hit roll is the point when the decision is no longer permitted.

Don't you select one weapon at a time anyway?
Which was the point of this thread.
So you could never have jink after all the weapons selections.

To hit rolls are step 4, thought I would point that out.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
From my rulebook Rigeld

When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made. If the unit Jinks, all models in the unit with this special rule gain a 4+ cover save until the start of their next Movement phase, but they can only fire Snap Shots until the end of their next turn.

The first sentence gives permission to Jink after being declared a target. (MAY is permissive.) The second sentence is a restriction on when the ability must be used. (MUST is restrictive.)

Fairly plain English.

The underlined is incorrect.
It gives permission to declare *when* you're declared a target - not after. Note the difference and please correctly quote rules next time.
May gives permission to declare when you're targeted.

The rules were quoted correctly. Your interpretation is the incorrect one. The rule obviously states when you may use Jink USR. After being declared a target. And it clearly states the timing of when you use the ability that Jink grants. Which is before TO HIT rolls. The first sentence clearly does not say what you claim, otherwise there would be no need for the second sentence.

So the first sentence says after?
Despite the fact that what you quoted doesn't contain that word?

And the Jink USR is what allows you to make the declaration in the first place, so no - the rule isn't stating when you may use the USR, it says when you may declare to Jink.
Your assertion that the first sentence gives permission after being declared a target is demonstrably false, as I pointed out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kyutaru wrote:
When targeted opens the opportunity window as even past the targeting step, the unit is still being targeted. Nothing has made it cease being targeted.

The actual rule is that you have permission to declare Jink when the unit is selected as a target, to be specific. I'm sorry if my posts led you to believe otherwise.

As the selection is a one time thing, your conclusion is based off an incorrect premise.

You have demonstrated nothing, you simply assert.

The rule gives explicit timing of its use. Before TO HIT rolls, which is after Targetting and weapon choice. You assertion is demonstrably false based on the second sentence.

I know this doesn't really help the topic but... this is really hilarious. I mean this argument is just.. bad. This is the kind of thing that kills the fun of a game.

For my money it's pretty clear- that jink is declared in response to targeting and targeting does not include the weapon. Targeting is it's own step and as such it seems absurd to me that, having its own step and timing, that a rule stipulating that as 'when' you do it would somehow be interpreted to be done outside that step.

Not that it gets used much but this exists. I see no reason why GW is incapable of having the same clarity and devoting a page in it's rulebook to such.

Fragile wrote:
You have demonstrated nothing, you simply assert.

The rule gives explicit timing of its use. Before TO HIT rolls, which is after Targetting and weapon choice. You assertion is demonstrably false based on the second sentence.

Yes, before to hit rolls, when the unit is selected for targeting.
Your assertion that you can wait until the weapon is declared breaks a rule and therefore cannot be correct - as I've shown.
You keep getting hung up on the second sentence, ignoring the first one.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You have demonstrated nothing, you simply assert.

The rule gives explicit timing of its use. Before TO HIT rolls, which is after Targetting and weapon choice. You assertion is demonstrably false based on the second sentence.

Yes, before to hit rolls, when the unit is selected for targeting.
Your assertion that you can wait until the weapon is declared breaks a rule and therefore cannot be correct - as I've shown.
You keep getting hung up on the second sentence, ignoring the first one.

Your trying to focus on one word in the entire rule. The first sentence tells you what Jink is for. You use it against shooting attacks... as opposed to penetrates/glances, close combat attacks, etc.. The second sentence gives you the timing. It must be done prior to TO HIT rolls. The second sentence is very specific with the timing the ability is used at.

even with the argument of "you have until the to hit rolls are made" the orbital bombardment, combi-weapon etc decision can still be made.

declare a target and fire bolters at it (even if they cannot hurt it)

then choose to fire the orbital bombardment / combi-weapon or not, based on whether they jink or not.

good if you get a 5 man squad with a melta behind a waveserpent and declare "These guys are firing their bolters at you, will you jink?" "no!" "aaand now the melta, sorry, too late to jink now!"

"before rolls to hit are made" means you can't decide not to jink with, say, a FMC, get whittled down to one wound with lucky shooting then try to jink the last meltagun shot from the same unit - it's all or nothing. you can't suddenly start jinking after the unit's started firing. same with if a waveserpent gets dropped to 1HP by boys shootas because it didn't jink and suddedly that last boy with a rokkit that could only take a hullpoint is lining up to finish you off. can't jink now, should have thought of that before I shot you.

allows for mini-sneaky tactics like having an independant character just within 2" of a squad and declaring "this guy's shooting you, will you jink?" "nah, he has a bolt pistol" "...and now the rest of his squad will fire..."

I see two sides arguing, but which happens when...

Guy: These Devs will fire... at... Hmm... ... ... yourbikeswithkrakmissiles"

Me: Ok, jinking

Guy: I selected my weapon its too late to decide!

 dayve110 wrote:
I see two sides arguing, but which happens when...

Guy: These Devs will fire... at... Hmm... ... ... yourbikeswithkrakmissiles"

Me: Ok, jinking

Guy: I selected my weapon its too late to decide!

Hasn't rolled yet, so timing isn't up.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
You have demonstrated nothing, you simply assert.

The rule gives explicit timing of its use. Before TO HIT rolls, which is after Targetting and weapon choice. You assertion is demonstrably false based on the second sentence.

Yes, before to hit rolls, when the unit is selected for targeting.
Your assertion that you can wait until the weapon is declared breaks a rule and therefore cannot be correct - as I've shown.
You keep getting hung up on the second sentence, ignoring the first one.

Your trying to focus on one word in the entire rule. The first sentence tells you what Jink is for. You use it against shooting attacks... as opposed to penetrates/glances, close combat attacks, etc.. The second sentence gives you the timing. It must be done prior to TO HIT rolls. The second sentence is very specific with the timing the ability is used at.

Would you mind not misquoting or misrepresenting the first sentence? You continually do so...

When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink.

That doesn't tell you what Jink is for, that sets up timing. Using your argument it could be ignored entirely. So let's look at the rule completely ignoring the first sentence as you seem to want to do.

The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made. If the unit Jinks, ... .

What decision? Can I make the decision at the start of the game during movement? How often do I need to make this decision?
Please, answer these questions with rules based arguments and remember - you cannot use the first sentence of the Jink SR.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dayve110 wrote:
I see two sides arguing, but which happens when...

Guy: These Devs will fire... at... Hmm... ... ... yourbikeswithkrakmissiles"

Me: Ok, jinking

Guy: I selected my weapon its too late to decide!

See, that's cheating. Guy merged multiple steps of the firing sequence together and he shouldn't have.
It's also a stupid way to attempt to prove a point - what if guy had rolled dice at the same time be blurted out those words? OMG ITS TOO LAATE

If it makes you feel better rigeld, I agree with you. The RAW could not be clearer.

I just didn't want to get involved in an argument. The only time I'm really interested in discussing the rules is when there are people still on the fence, or still questioning things. Here, it seemed like everyone has been going into the discussion with their minds made up, so trying to convince anyone didn't really seem productive.

Yes, you can change what weapons you fire based on whether or not your opponent chooses to Jink. It's black and white.

It doesn't make me feel better or worse really :-)
Like I said, mob rule doesn't mean anything when discussing what the rules say.

the weird thing is, it seems like both ways are right... declare jink when targetted or declare jink when first weapon is declared, both fall under the whole rule that says when targeted and before shots are fired. the fact that you have to say what the first gun you're firing is - so what? just fire the unconditional guns first and see if they jink.

some bloke, does declaring Jink at the time of target declaration fulfill the requirement to declare before To Hit rolls are made?

Does declaring Jink right before To Hit rolls are made, fulfill the requirement to declare when the unit is targeted?

You know the more I think about it the more I can see where people are coming from with the 'before To Hit rolls' argument. If you assume the 'When' bit is just referring to the general process of getting shot at rather than a specific timing step I'd have to agree that the decision is made at any time before To Hit.

But Happyjew has the most compelling answer above. The requirements of 'when targeted' and 'before To Hit' are both met one way and only half met the other.

Kojiro, my "compelling answer" is exactly what rigeld has been saying this entire time.

As it has not come up in game yet, I've no idea how my group plays it (mostly because I've only played one game of 7th), but I can see it being played either way, and would not argue about it.

Kyutaru wrote:
Meanwhile, the opposition has been giving the other compelling answer that meets Happy's qualifications. The requirement of declaring when targeted is fulfilled even if waiting for weapons to be selected because the target is still being targeted. Units can gain bonuses when assaulting, bonuses that apply throughout the assault phase beginning when they actually declare a charge.

Except:
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot.
2. Choose a Target. <--- When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink.
3. Select a Weapon.
3.x <---- The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made.
4. Make To hit Rolls

There are steps and declaring at 2 violates neither of the denoted timings. Declaring at 3.x violates 'When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target'.

BRB, page 167; "When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made..."

The Jink doesn't have to be called when targeted but has to be called before To Hit rolls. So, RAW, the defender can declare it at any point between being being selected as a target and To Hit rolls being made.

 dg3263827 wrote:
BRB, page 167; "When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made..."

The Jink doesn't have to be called when targeted but has to be called before To Hit rolls. So, RAW, the defender can declare it at any point between being being selected as a target and To Hit rolls being made.

What does the first word of the rule say?
The words you emphasized aren't the important ones in the rule.

Take that statement to a lawyer and yes, he will expect $5.

Nothing in your statement disallows the payment. TBH if this is the case, the response should be "I may jink depending on what weapons you are firing."

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
Take that statement to a lawyer and yes, he will expect $5.

Only for his time :-)
Because he did not jump when he was supposed to, but sometime later.

What makes the first word more important than the ones I highlighted?

If you get a bill and it says "you may pay this now but you must pay this by the end of the month." Does that mean you have to pay it now? Or do you have some wiggle room, in this case being 13 days? This rule is the same idea.

If you look on page 30 of the BRB, a defender has between "2. Choose a Target" and "4. Roll to Hit" to declare Jink.

I'm curious, what do the new rules say about targeting a unit, is it the same as last ed?

Cheers

Andrew


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mulletdude wrote:
This restriction is great for trolling models with Jink too. Say you have a chapter master who has yet to fire his orbital bombardment. Declare he is shooting at that skimmer and go to pick up the large blast template, but then ask if your opponent wants to jink. He says yes? Put the large blast down and declare the chapter master is throwing a krak grenade. Enjoy the lulz

That only works if he is in range to throw the krak grenade. Otherwise, he has to use the orbital.

Cheers

Andrew


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
Take that statement to a lawyer and yes, he will expect $5.

Only for his time :-)
Because he did not jump when he was supposed to, but sometime later.

Unfortunately your statement did not state that he had to jump when you said 'banana' only that he may jump. It has created a condition in the mind of the reader that he is not allowed to jump before you say 'Banana'

In much the same way, the rule regarding Jink has also created a condition of 'not jink' that applies to the model that can only be removed by the trigger action of targeting the unit, and reimposed by the effect of rolling to-hit dice.

Much like the picture of the old crone and young lady, both exist on the same page, but you can only see one at a time. I'd ask my opponent how he wants to play it.

Cheers

Andrew

 AndrewC wrote:
Unfortunately your statement did not state that he had to jump when you said 'banana' only that he may jump. It has created a condition in the mind of the reader that he is not allowed to jump before you say 'Banana'

He's never forced to - it's optional.
He's not required to get money for jumping at all. That's all the "may" does.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dg3263827 wrote:
What makes the first word more important than the ones I highlighted?

The fact that it sets the timer. When X happens, you may do Y. You're not forced to do Y, but you may.

If you get a bill and it says "you may pay this now but you must pay this by the end of the month." Does that mean you have to pay it now? Or do you have some wiggle room, in this case being 13 days? This rule is the same idea.

Considering that wording is nothing like the rule in question, I'd ask why you bring it up.

If you look on page 30 of the BRB, a defender has between "2. Choose a Target" and "4. Roll to Hit" to declare Jink.

This statement breaks the rule set by the first sentence of the Jink SR.

I have edited out a stack of off-topic nonsense. As a reminder to all: Address the topic, not the poster.

I get what you're saying, but 'may' doesn't mean 'has to'. It is, unfortunately, an open statement. The closure of the statement doesn't appear until your following sentence. 'Before I...'

Had the Jink rule left out the second sentence with the '...before to-hit rolls...' there would be no argument, you could switch out weapons for another one.

GW has written an opening condition, and then a closing condition in a separate sentence.

GW Rules as Written TM (Total Madness)

Cheers

Andrew

rigeld2 wrote:

 dg3263827 wrote:
What makes the first word more important than the ones I highlighted?

The fact that it sets the timer. When X happens, you may do Y. You're not forced to do Y, but you may.

If you look on page 30 of the BRB, a defender has between "2. Choose a Target" and "4. Roll to Hit" to declare Jink.

This statement breaks the rule set by the first sentence of the Jink SR.

Yes, you are correct, WHEN a jetbike is selected as a target is MAY Jink. He is not forced to, but he may. However, he MUST declare if he is going to Jink before To Hit rolls are made. So, RAW, after being selected as a target and before To Hit rolls are made, the jetbike can declare that he will Jink. You cannot ignore the second sentence of the rule and concentrate on the first sentence. The statement doesn't break the rule because the rule, in it's completion, clearly states the time frame in which a Jink can be declared.

 insaniak wrote:
I have edited out a stack of off-topic nonsense. As a reminder to all: Address the topic, not the poster.

Apparently you've expunged a sizeable amount of on topic material as well. The thread reads quite strangely now with answers given to questions never asked.

A bit trigger-happy are we?

Restating my most recent point...

rigeld2 wrote:Read the rule correctly instead of summarizing it please.
Jink is declared when the unit is selected as a target - that's a single point in time. Sure, it remains targeted throughout the shooting attack, but it's only selected once.

Which, again, is where the disagreement is. Selection is a state, not an instance. If I select someone to be the leader of this topic, they remain selected by me even while carrying the title of Leader. That's the beauty of the word selected... it describes a past tense state of being, it does not say "Jink is declared when an opponent selects this unit as a target".

 dg3263827 wrote:
Yes, you are correct, WHEN a jetbike is selected as a target is MAY Jink. He is not forced to, but he may. However, he MUST declare if he is going to Jink before To Hit rolls are made. So, RAW, after being selected as a target and before To Hit rolls are made, the jetbike can declare that he will Jink. You cannot ignore the second sentence of the rule and concentrate on the first sentence. The statement doesn't break the rule because the rule, in it's completion, clearly states the time frame in which a Jink can be declared.

'When' is not 'after'. Restated your point looks like this:

 dg3263827 wrote:
So, RAW, WHEN being selected as a target and before To Hit rolls are made, the jetbike can declare that he will Jink.

Which is, I believe, exactly Rigel's point.

If when is not implied as after, when exactly is it?

The rule sets a beginning "When a unit is selected" and an end "Before rolls To Hit" as to when a Jink can be declared.

IMO, the following senario follows RAW:
Attacker says, "I am going to target your jetbike."
Defender doesn't say anything.
Attacker says, "I am going to shoot my lasguns."
Defender says nothing.
Attacker doesn't wound jetbikes.
Attack says, "I'm going to shoot my plasma gun."
Defender says, "I'm going to Jink."

 Kojiro wrote:
'When' is not 'after'.

When I grow up, I'm going to be a doctor. Sadly, if I don't become a doctor the instant I grow up, I'll be doomed to roam the earth without a PhD.

You can totally quit your job when you win the lottery. But you need to decide like THAT DAY whether you want to keep your job or not.

 dg3263827 wrote:
If when is not implied as after, when exactly is it?

We have a step by step process. A model is targeted during step 2- Select Target. A model declares jink (if its controller so desires) when it is targeted. Surely that act of targeting is unambiguously done during step 2? Any subsequent step must then- assuming we accept the idea that step are sequential- after step 2.

Kyutaru wrote:

 Kojiro wrote:
'When' is not 'after'.

When I grow up, I'm going to be a doctor. Sadly, if I don't become a doctor the instant I grow up, I'll be doomed to roam the earth without a PhD.

You can totally quit your job when you win the lottery. But you need to decide like THAT DAY whether you want to keep your job or not.

These situations aren't comparable. At all.
In real life it's not an open and shut turn off valve. So literally any comparison you draw will fail - like these two do.

He MAY declare Jink WHEN targeted but he MUST declare Jink before To Hit rolls.

If you are so adamant that Jink can ONLY be declared WHEN targeted, how do you explain the second sentence?

Kyutaru wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Read the rule correctly instead of summarizing it please.
Jink is declared when the unit is selected as a target - that's a single point in time. Sure, it remains targeted throughout the shooting attack, but it's only selected once.

Which, again, is where the disagreement is. Selection is a state, not an instance. If I select someone to be the leader of this topic, they remain selected by me even while carrying the title of Leader. That's the beauty of the word selected... it describes a past tense state of being, it does not say "Jink is declared when an opponent selects this unit as a target".

I thought being targeted was the state? I'm relatively sure you mentioned that. Am I imagining it?
You select someone as the leader, and then they are the leader.
You select a unit as a target and they may declare to Jink.
When X happens, you may Y. Doing it later means you opted not to Y when X happened.
Edit: nope, I didn't imagine it.

When targeted opens the opportunity window as even past the targeting step, the unit is still being targeted. Nothing has made it cease being targeted.

Your (current) first post in the thread.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dg3263827 wrote:
He MAY declare Jink WHEN targeted but he MUST declare Jink before To Hit rolls.

If you are so adamant that Jink can ONLY be declared WHEN targeted, how do you explain the second sentence?

It's evidence of intent, but not enough for it to be obvious IMO.

rigeld2 wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:

 Kojiro wrote:
'When' is not 'after'.

When I grow up, I'm going to be a doctor. Sadly, if I don't become a doctor the instant I grow up, I'll be doomed to roam the earth without a PhD.

You can totally quit your job when you win the lottery. But you need to decide like THAT DAY whether you want to keep your job or not.

These situations aren't comparable. At all.
In real life it's not an open and shut turn off valve. So literally any comparison you draw will fail - like these two do.

Who is making comparisons? Certainly not me, so cut it out reggy. He stated 'When' is not 'after'. My post was on point to directly oppose that statement. When can definitely be used to describe an after state. Of course, the whole crux of the back and forth is that we disagree whether that version of When applies in this context, so yet again nothing new has been stated by anyone.

My challenge that someone come up with a new point remains unconquered.

rigeld2, Kojiro...

Humor me, please...

I say, "I'm going to count from one to seven. When I say two, you may tell me to stop. You must tell me to stop before I say four." Does this mean you have to tell me to stop when I say two or can you also tell me to stop on three?

 dg3263827 wrote:
He MAY declare Jink WHEN targeted but he MUST declare Jink before To Hit rolls.

If you are so adamant that Jink can ONLY be declared WHEN targeted, how do you explain the second sentence?

Oversight? Sloppy editing? Remnant of a previous edition?

The fact is that declaring jink at step 2 does not violate the second sentence but declaring it at step 3 or 4 (or anywhere in between) does violate the first by virtue of 3 and 4 being after 2. You get to declare a jink when selected as a target. You are not selected in step 1, 3 or 4. You are selected in 2 and should declare in 2.

rigeld2 wrote:
I thought being targeted was the state? I'm relatively sure you mentioned that. Am I imagining it?

Am I to understand that you believe only a single state can be had at any particular time? Am I also to understand that you fail to see how "when targeted" and "selected as a target" mirror each other as identical in all but literal spelling? Am I only imagining you responding with some sort of knowledge of CONTEXT like the rules you adamantly defend? Yep, I did imagine it. Splitting hairs over something that is not a direct rules quote isn't exactly helping your side, just making it seem petty.

You MAY declare in step 2 but you MUST declare before step 4; ergo, you also MAY declare during step 3.

 Kojiro wrote:
Oversight? Sloppy editing? Remnant of a previous edition?

So in other words we have two interpretations... your interpretation requires that we discard another statement because it doesn't make any sense to have it (it's redundant) while our interpretation joins both statements into a harmonious joint-existence (start condition to end condition)... I think you said something along the lines of this before regarding Happy's post but... it would seem our explanation is the one making the most sense here. Our explanation makes both rules necessary while your explanation only makes one of the rules necessary and another redundant.

 dg3263827 wrote:

I say, "I'm going to count from one to seven. When I say two, you may tell me to stop. You must tell me to stop before I say four." Does this mean you have to tell me to stop when I say two or can you also tell me to stop on three?

The basic gist of the argument is, Kyutaru stated, whether or not 'when' means a specific point of time or if it means 'from this point onward'. I would argue in casual conversation it could be either and we discount literal interpretations..But this is not casual conversation, it is a step by step process in a rule book. Literal interpretations *should* be the order of the day.

If something says it occurs at a specific step I see no reason to choose an interpretation that allows it be chosen at another step. Hence I favour the 'immediate' version of when.

Put me into the "they have up until before to-hit rolls are made".
Mostly because that's what it says in the rulebook when you read it without going: "if you look at the Greek origin of the first word in the second sentence it indirectly implies that the player was born under the sign of the monkey and therefore concludes
That in fact they can ignore the third sentence of the rule per the 3rd edition faq ruling of the 1994 row vs wade agreement."

If it says you have up until to-hit rolls are made, then you have up until to-hit rolls are made.

Of course at this point, people already have picked their sides and will not budge no matter what anyone says. Right?

Ye gods I can barely keep up.

Kyutaru wrote:
So in other words we have two interpretations... your interpretation requires that we discard another statement because it doesn't make any sense to have it (it's redundant)

There is no requirement to discard it but agreed, it does seem redundant. But then if Jink had been written as:
After a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink.
This would not be an argument. But it doesn't.

Kyutaru wrote:
while our interpretation joins both statements into a harmonious joint-existence (start condition to end condition)...

I don't believe it does. I think when given step by step, sequential timing 'when' is going to imply 'at this step'.

Kyutaru wrote:
I think you said something along the lines of this before regarding Happy's post but... it would seem our explanation is the one making the most sense here. Our explanation makes both rules necessary while your explanation only makes one of the rules necessary and another redundant.

For what it's worth, I believe you have the RAI but not the RAW. One could easily argue that the second sentence isn't meant to be there any more than 'When' is meant to be 'After'.

yukondal wrote:
Of course at this point, people already have picked their sides and will not budge no matter what anyone says. Right?

\

The new Smartest Person in the Thread. Sorry B.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kojiro wrote:
For what it's worth, I believe you have the RAI but not the RAW. One could easily argue that the second sentence isn't meant to be there any more than 'When' is meant to be 'After'.

Which leads right back to where we started. One of these two facts has to receive a concession before we can continue any further. I don't think it's going to happen.

A more rational mind and someone I consider more of an authority than those blindly disagreeing wrote it out fairly well I think, I will attack the PDF here, just scan down to the shooting sequence that he even references in the PDF.

 Kojiro wrote:

 dg3263827 wrote:

I say, "I'm going to count from one to seven. When I say two, you may tell me to stop. You must tell me to stop before I say four." Does this mean you have to tell me to stop when I say two or can you also tell me to stop on three?

The basic gist of the argument is, Kyutaru stated, whether or not 'when' means a specific point of time or if it means 'from this point onward'. I would argue in casual conversation it could be either and we discount literal interpretations..But this is not casual conversation, it is a step by step process in a rule book. Literal interpretations *should* be the order of the day.

If something says it occurs at a specific step I see no reason to choose an interpretation that allows it be chosen at another step. Hence I favour the 'immediate' version of when.

I just explained a step by step process of me counting, giving you instructions on telling me when to tell me to stop. And it directly relates to this argument, so please, humor me with an answer.

 Lobomalo wrote:
A more rational mind and someone I consider more of an authority than those blindly disagreeing wrote it out fairly well I think, I will attack the PDF here, just scan down to the shooting sequence that he even references in the PDF.

So basically this guy has a line that says "Declare Jinking" at step 5, after weapon selection but before To Hit rolls which are step 6. Whoever made that list agrees with the "until To Hit" party.

Not entirely sure how that matters though. Who is this anonymous donator?

Kyutaru wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:
A more rational mind and someone I consider more of an authority than those blindly disagreeing wrote it out fairly well I think, I will attack the PDF here, just scan down to the shooting sequence that he even references in the PDF.

So basically this guy has a line that says "Declare Jinking" at step 5, after weapon selection but before To Hit rolls which are step 6. Whoever made that list agrees with the "until To Hit" party.

Not entirely sure how that matters though. Who is this anonymous donator?

He wrote out what I was trying to explain, the process from which you have to declare a Jink, beginning to end

Some dude people are cheering on in gen chat

Not to mention, as an unbiased 3rd party who isn't even in the discussion, his opinion carries more weight when we are talking about rule interpretation tbh. As the opposing side has descended into insanity from what I have seen in the last few pages.

17428 posts

When declared you may.

You must decide before to hit rolls are made.

Pretty clear Imo. Jinking player has a window of opportunity from the moment his unit is targetted until just before the to hit dice are rolled.

Pretty clear there are two conditions, not a window. The second condition is redundant, but makes it explicit when the declaration has to occur by.

The second condition is to say you have to do it before any shots, so you can't ignore boltguns then jink specialist weapons from the same unit. you can't not jink boltguns then jink the orbital bombardment that comes after from the same unit.

it's between saying "i'm shooting that" and rolling the first dice.

GW were probably trying to come up with the least confusable way to say "when a unit with jink is shot" to avoid people saying "the unit isn't shot until shots are rolled, they're only targetted so cannot jink ever" please stop twisting the rules around, in the end the only way to use this technique is to be TFG. "oh you jinked, I'll fire the bolter instead, that can't hurt you." don't be TFG.

if anyone can give me a scenario in which it matters as to whether they jink or not before you pick your gun that Doesn't mean you're pulling a trick that'll make the opponent say "FFS, what a w*nker" and be branded as TFG, please make it known.

dg3263827 wrote:rigeld2, Kojiro...

Humor me, please...

I say, "I'm going to count from one to seven. When I say two, you may tell me to stop. You must tell me to stop before I say four." Does this mean you have to tell me to stop when I say two or can you also tell me to stop on three?

When you say two. Exactly like I've been saying all along. What, did you think wording my own example differently would change my answer?

Kyutaru wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I thought being targeted was the state? I'm relatively sure you mentioned that. Am I imagining it?

Am I to understand that you believe only a single state can be had at any particular time? Am I also to understand that you fail to see how "when targeted" and "selected as a target" mirror each other as identical in all but literal spelling? Am I only imagining you responding with some sort of knowledge of CONTEXT like the rules you adamantly defend? Yep, I did imagine it. Splitting hairs over something that is not a direct rules quote isn't exactly helping your side, just making it seem petty.

It's not splitting hairs - there's a distinct difference between being targeted and being selected as a target.
It's not me being petty, it's you being sloppy with wording when words are important.

rigeld2 wrote:

dg3263827 wrote:rigeld2, Kojiro...

Humor me, please...

I say, "I'm going to count from one to seven. When I say two, you may tell me to stop. You must tell me to stop before I say four." Does this mean you have to tell me to stop when I say two or can you also tell me to stop on three?

When you say two. Exactly like I've been saying all along. What, did you think wording my own example differently would change my answer?

Can we all agree that "is selected as a target by a shoot attack" is Step 2 in the Shooting Sequence chart? Yes. OK, good.
Can we also agree that "before any To Hit rolls have been made" is before Step 4 in the Shooting Sequence chart? Also yes. Awesome.

Now, given that a unit may (MAY!) declare Jink at Step 2 and must (MUST!) declare Jink before Step 4, it is implied that it is acceptable to Jink at Step 3.

REAL WORLD EXAMPLE:
You get a pay notice. The pay notice arrives June 2 and it says "You must be pay before June 4."
May you pay on June 1? No, you aren't aware of the need to pay.
May you pay on June 2? Yes, because you are aware and before the deadline.
If you do not pay on June 2, may you also pay on June 3? Yes, since you are aware and before the deadline.
If you do not pay on June 2 or June 3, may you pay on June 4? No, because that is after the deadline.

Now replace "pay" with "Jink" and "June" with "Step" and VIOLA! a breakdown of the RAW!

 dg3263827 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

dg3263827 wrote:rigeld2, Kojiro...

Humor me, please...

I say, "I'm going to count from one to seven. When I say two, you may tell me to stop. You must tell me to stop before I say four." Does this mean you have to tell me to stop when I say two or can you also tell me to stop on three?

When you say two. Exactly like I've been saying all along. What, did you think wording my own example differently would change my answer?

Can we all agree that "is selected as a target by a shoot attack" is Step 2 in the Shooting Sequence chart? Yes. OK, good.
Can we also agree that "before any To Hit rolls have been made" is before Step 4 in the Shooting Sequence chart? Also yes. Awesome.

Now, given that a unit may (MAY!) declare Jink at Step 2 and must (MUST!) declare Jink before Step 4, it is implied that it is acceptable to Jink at Step 3.

That's a great argument for what they intended to mean.
You may declare it at step 2. You don't have any permission to declare it after step 2 - you only have permission to declare when the unit is selected as a target.

REAL WORLD EXAMPLE:
You get a pay notice. The pay notice arrives June 2 and it says "You must be pay before June 4."
May you pay on June 1? No, you aren't aware of the need to pay.
May you pay on June 2? Yes, because you are aware and before the deadline.
If you do not pay on June 2, may you also pay on June 3? Yes, since you are aware and before the deadline.
If you do not pay on June 2 or June 3, may you pay on June 4? No, because that is after the deadline.

Now replace "pay" with "Jink" and "June" with "Step" and VIOLA! a breakdown of the RAW!

Except you completely ignored the first sentence of the Jink rule in your example. So no, it's not a breakdown of the RAW because you literally ignored a rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

REAL WORLD EXAMPLE:
You get a pay notice. The pay notice arrives June 2 and it says "You must be pay before June 4."
May you pay on June 1? No, you aren't aware of the need to pay.
May you pay on June 2? Yes, because you are aware and before the deadline.
If you do not pay on June 2, may you also pay on June 3? Yes, since you are aware and before the deadline.
If you do not pay on June 2 or June 3, may you pay on June 4? No, because that is after the deadline.

Now replace "pay" with "Jink" and "June" with "Step" and VIOLA! a breakdown of the RAW!

Except you completely ignored the first sentence of the Jink rule in your example. So no, it's not a breakdown of the RAW because you literally ignored a rule.

I didn't ignore the first sentence... but okay, fine... let me rephrase this so that there is no way you can misunderstand....

You get a pay notice. The pay notice arrives June 2 and it says "When you get this notice, you may pay. You must pay before June 4."
May you pay on June 1? No, you aren't aware of the need to pay.
May you pay on June 2? Yes, because you are aware and before the deadline.
If you do not pay on June 2, may you also pay on June 3? Yes, since you are aware and before the deadline.
If you do not pay on June 2 or June 3, may you pay on June 4? No, because that is after the deadline.

Now replace "pay" with "Jink" and "June" with "Step" and VIOLA! a breakdown of the RAW

 dg3263827 wrote:
I didn't ignore the first sentence... but okay, fine... let me rephrase this so that there is no way you can misunderstand....

You get a pay notice. The pay notice arrives June 2 and it says "When you get this notice, you may pay. You must pay before June 4."

If you don't pay on June 2, you suffer whatever penalties are involved. That's what "When X happens, you may Y." means.
If you pay on the 3rd, you didn't pay on the 2nd.

Okay. You're wrong. You have obviously never received a billing invoice or pay notice in your life.

The only reason I can come up with as to why you are so adamantly defending your position is that you are a WAAC player who doesn't run an army that can Jink. Either way, it seems your ignorance knows no bounds and I am officially wiping my hands of this.

 dg3263827 wrote:
Okay. You're wrong. You have obviously never received a billing invoice or pay notice in your life.

Incorrect assumption. Your example also doesn't correctly match the wording on billing invoices.

rigeld2 wrote:
When I say "Banana" you may jump. You have to jump before I say "Gotcha". If you jump, you get $5.

I say "Banana". You do nothing. I say "Orange." You jump. I say "Gotcha." You expect $5?

Because you sure as heck didn't jump when I said "Banana".

You never said how soon after you say Banana you have to jump. So yes, you owe me 5$.

Rule #1 is a VERY important rule on Dakka Dakka, and following it is a mandatory condition to posting here.

It is also something everyone agreed to do when they signed up here.

Not sure if that was aimed at me or not. I did not intend to break any rules. I thought I explained my reasoning well. If it was please pm me and let me know, i don''t want to tbe TFG on the forums on accident.

RJCarrot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
When I say "Banana" you may jump. You have to jump before I say "Gotcha". If you jump, you get $5.

I say "Banana". You do nothing. I say "Orange." You jump. I say "Gotcha." You expect $5?

Because you sure as heck didn't jump when I said "Banana".

You never said how soon after you say Banana you have to jump. So yes, you owe me 5$.

"When" is how soon. When I do it. That's a timing thing.

rigeld2 wrote:

RJCarrot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
When I say "Banana" you may jump. You have to jump before I say "Gotcha". If you jump, you get $5.

I say "Banana". You do nothing. I say "Orange." You jump. I say "Gotcha." You expect $5?

Because you sure as heck didn't jump when I said "Banana".

You never said how soon after you say Banana you have to jump. So yes, you owe me 5$.

"When" is how soon. When I do it. That's a timing thing.

You said I MAY jump. I chose not to.
Second Stipulation was that I had to Jump before you said Gotcha. I did that.

You now owe me 5$ plus interest.

RJCarrot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

RJCarrot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
When I say "Banana" you may jump. You have to jump before I say "Gotcha". If you jump, you get $5.

I say "Banana". You do nothing. I say "Orange." You jump. I say "Gotcha." You expect $5?

Because you sure as heck didn't jump when I said "Banana".

You never said how soon after you say Banana you have to jump. So yes, you owe me 5$.

"When" is how soon. When I do it. That's a timing thing.

You said I MAY jump. I chose not to.

And you lost any benefit from choosing to do so any time later.
You keep acting like that requirement is irrelevant. It's not. No one is forcing you to jump (Jink) - it's your option.

I guess this falls under the purview of the person who is choosing to jink. They have from the window of me declaring a target till the first dice hit the table. If he is not on his game about declaring to jink than he doesn't get to. In local games I will ask, but in general I will declare a target, count to two and then start selecting and rolling. If they miss it, its on them, I will give them one pass a game, but after that they need to learn.

If they dont have to declare until the to hit rolls are made than it is on them to make sure they declare it in time.

 Leth wrote:
I guess this falls under the purview of the person who is choosing to jink. They have from the window of me declaring a target till the first dice hit the table. If he is not on his game about declaring to jink than he doesn't get to. In local games I will ask, but in general I will declare a target, count to two and then start selecting and rolling. If they miss it, its on them, I will give them one pass a game, but after that they need to learn.

If they dont have to declare until the to hit rolls are made than it is on them to make sure they declare it in time.

Actually you would select a weapon first, then pause for the 2 count and then roll. The selection of a weapon precedes the roll to-hit so he has a second or two to decide.

Most players, they simply pick a weapon to shoot first, then the unit they are shooting at, ends up being easier for everyone this way and you don't get douche players who want to try and manipulate word usage in the rules

 Lobomalo wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I guess this falls under the purview of the person who is choosing to jink. They have from the window of me declaring a target till the first dice hit the table. If he is not on his game about declaring to jink than he doesn't get to. In local games I will ask, but in general I will declare a target, count to two and then start selecting and rolling. If they miss it, its on them, I will give them one pass a game, but after that they need to learn.

If they dont have to declare until the to hit rolls are made than it is on them to make sure they declare it in time.

Actually you would select a weapon first, then pause for the 2 count and then roll. The selection of a weapon precedes the roll to-hit so he has a second or two to decide.

Most players, they simply pick a weapon to shoot first, then the unit they are shooting at, ends up being easier for everyone this way and you don't get douche players who want to try and manipulate word usage in the rules

The two count is a courtesy, as far as I am concerned they have from the time I declare the target until I roll for a weapon to declare, just because they cut it close at the end to manipulate their options in their favor is a risk they are choosing to take. No skin off my back if their risk does not workout for them. Also this only matters in a unit with one weapon type. I can declare a type is firing and not actually fire a single shot with it. Its just that I cant shoot any of that weapon later.

The jink rule says you may declare it when you are targeted. You must do this before any to-hit rolls are made.

Nowhere does it say you have permission to declare jink at any other time other then when I declare the unit as the target. If you think that you may declare jink after I declare which weapon I am using then you must show me RAW support that says you may jink when I declare which weapon I am using.

There is nowhere in the jink rules that say you may jink after the opponent declares which weapon they are firing, only when they select the unit as the target.

rigeld2 wrote:

RJCarrot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

RJCarrot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
When I say "Banana" you may jump. You have to jump before I say "Gotcha". If you jump, you get $5.

I say "Banana". You do nothing. I say "Orange." You jump. I say "Gotcha." You expect $5?

Because you sure as heck didn't jump when I said "Banana".

You never said how soon after you say Banana you have to jump. So yes, you owe me 5$.

"When" is how soon. When I do it. That's a timing thing.

You said I MAY jump. I chose not to.

And you lost any benefit from choosing to do so any time later.
You keep acting like that requirement is irrelevant. It's not. No one is forcing you to jump (Jink) - it's your option.

I chose to, just not immediately after you said banana.

Did I jump when you said Banana? No, it said you may.
Did I jump before you said Gotcha? Yes.

Nowhere does it say, if you don't jump when you said Banana you lose the right to jump.

an interesting interpretation i thought of:

you declare you're shooting a wave serpent with something that autohits but allows cover, EG the old weirdboy psychic power before it was FAQ's out. it doesn't jink.

you score a penetrating hit.

the serpent now jinks, as no rolls to hit have yet been made and so he still can, by some peoples wording.

I'm changing sides here. declare a target, decide to jink, pick a weapon. "before any rolls to hit" is just there to stop you jinking halfway through.

RJCarrot wrote:
Nowhere does it say, if you don't jump when you said Banana you lose the right to jump.

It doesn't say I can't so I can?
You have permission at one specific point. You're assuming permission at any other point. Prove permission.

It says jump before you say gotcha for 5$.

That was done.

No one asked for permission, you said jump before Gotcha for 5$, it was done.

RJCarrot wrote:
It says jump before you say gotcha for 5$.

That was done.

No one asked for permission, you said jump before Gotcha for 5$, it was done.

And you're ignoring the timing inherent in the first sentence. Exactly like you're ignoring the timing inherent in the first sentence of the Jink rule.
Which was my point. Thanks for proving it?

RJCarrot wrote:
It says jump before you say gotcha for 5$.

That was done.

No one asked for permission, you said jump before Gotcha for 5$, it was done.

Which would be find if we were dealing with a restrictive ruleset. Permissive ruleset only gives you permission to claim money after jumping after he says banana and not after he says orange.

The rule is still not clear. If it was, there wouldn't be 4 pages of debate.

Either way you still owe me 5$ but you can keep it, you probably need it more than I do.

RJCarrot wrote:
The rule is still not clear. If it was, there wouldn't be 4 pages of debate.

Either way you still owe me 5$ but you can keep it, you probably need it more than I do.

So you admit that your argument ignores the first sentence, but it's somehow not clear?
That doesn't make sense at all...

It doesn't ignore it. It says may. That implys you also may not. The stipulation on getting paid is Jumping Before you say gotcha.

Both things were done.

Now we can talk about jinking all you want, but your analogy is flawed.

Either way, the rule needs to be clarified.

RJCarrot wrote:
The rule is still not clear. If it was, there wouldn't be 4 pages of debate.

Either way you still owe me 5$ but you can keep it, you probably need it more than I do.

To me it seems plenty clear, you only have permission to declare jink when they declare the target, it doesn't say anywhere else in the rules that you may declare jink when the opponent declares which weapon he will use

RJCarrot wrote:
It doesn't ignore it. It says may. That implys you also may not. The stipulation on getting paid is Jumping Before you say gotcha.

Both things were done.

Now we can talk about jinking all you want, but your analogy is flawed.

Either way, the rule needs to be clarified.

Yes - you may not. You may opt not to. You are not required to.
You gain no benefit from doing so, but you may opt not to.

Correct, but you do gain a benefit of Jumping before you say Gotcha, Which ya did.

RJCarrot wrote:
Correct, but you do gain a benefit of Jumping before you say Gotcha, Which ya did.

Where does it say that? Please highlight that for me because the quotes so far provided in this thread say nothing of the kind.

When I say "Banana" you may jump. You have to jump before I say "Gotcha". If you jump, you get $5.

Did jumping occur before you said Gotcha? Yes it did.

RJCarrot wrote:
When I say "Banana" you may jump. You have to jump before I say "Gotcha". If you jump, you get $5.

Did jumping occur before you said Gotcha? Yes it did.

But it did not occur when I said Banana. So... yeah, no such thing as what I asked for which was for you to point out "you do gain a benefit of Jumping before you say Gotcha".
Thanks, again, for proving my point.

It is in bold. I am done though. You have provided me much amusement while waiting for work to be over with your inability to think past what you wanted to say vs what you said.

What you mean to say is.

I am going to say Banana,
When I say Banana, you MUST Jump before anything else is said. (or provide a time frame)
If you do so before I say Gotcha, then you get 5$

But either way you will argue just to argue. So Ima let this be before I start trolling this moot point.

I am in the they have a window to say it until I roll my dice. HOWEVER if they dont declare jink by the time the dice hit the table they are out of luck.

 Leth wrote:
I am in the they have a window to say it until I roll my dice. HOWEVER if they dont declare jink by the time the dice hit the table they are out of luck.

I am also in this camp. The way I read it is that the window of opportunity opens the moment that unit is targeted and closes when the dice are thrown.

 Leth wrote:
I am in the they have a window to say it until I roll my dice. HOWEVER if they dont declare jink by the time the dice hit the table they are out of luck.

See I would simply go step by step. I would select my unit (step 1). Then I would select it's target, a random jink rule model (step 2). As I have now selected said model as a target I would ask if the opponent wanted to jink as the conditions to use it have just been fulfilled. Now I'm not going to give him all day but I have no issue with waiting a few seconds for an answer. It's a yes or no answer- use an ability or don't. If I absent mindedly rolled without allowing for time to declare the jink I'd have no problem retroactively granting it if they wanted.

Do people think they're obliged to answer during step 2, when the condition is fulfilled? Do they think 'maybe' is an acceptable answer to a question about a binary state (I don't as it is not in any way useful)?

RJCarrot wrote:
What you mean to say is.

Why would I mean to say that, when it's not even close to what the rule says?
And what I said is exactly what the rule says and supports my viewpoint?

No, I said what I meant to say.

17267 posts/1038 days of membership = 16 posts per day.



Simple English eludes people.

May is not must.

may =/= must

The window opens at step 2 (may). Proceeds thru selecting weapons (step 3) and closes the instant before "to hit" rolls are made (step 4).

Edit: clarifications and rewording.

jamesk1973 wrote:
Simple english eludes people.

Amended Jink Rule wrote:AFTER a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink. The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made.

See how easy that was? And it clears up all the confusion. If someone has a poor grasp of English it is the writers of these rules. As people have said 'when' can mean at a specific, immediate moment (when the crosshairs are on the target, pull the trigger*) or it can mean an ongoing state (when I grow up...) with a specific start point. Any rules writer worth a damn should be able to look at a rule and ask 'is this as clear as it can be?' This very argument is a testament to the fact that whoever wrote this- and granted I'm only assuming their intent was to clearly explain the rules- has failed at that task.

A few pages back I posted the WM/H little used but actually existent timing chart. I want that level of clarity and precision from GW and there is no acceptable reason for it not being present by the 7th edition of the game.




*Or if you like, when the crosshairs are on you, jink!

 Kojiro wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I am in the they have a window to say it until I roll my dice. HOWEVER if they dont declare jink by the time the dice hit the table they are out of luck.

See I would simply go step by step. I would select my unit (step 1). Then I would select it's target, a random jink rule model (step 2). As I have now selected said model as a target I would ask if the opponent wanted to jink as the conditions to use it have just been fulfilled. Now I'm not going to give him all day but I have no issue with waiting a few seconds for an answer. It's a yes or no answer- use an ability or don't. If I absent mindedly rolled without allowing for time to declare the jink I'd have no problem retroactively granting it if they wanted.

Do people think they're obliged to answer during step 2, when the condition is fulfilled? Do they think 'maybe' is an acceptable answer to a question about a binary state (I don't as it is not in any way useful)?

This is another one where I would do it in friendly play, but in tournament play I am not going to remember your rules for you. I am not going to remind you about hit and run, or anything of that nature. If you forget and constantly get do-overs you are never going to remember. I will do it once per game, but after that its on you.

jamesk1973 wrote:
17267 posts/1038 days of membership = 16 posts per day.

Post count is irrelevant. I'm not sure why you even bring it up except as an attempt to insult me. That's not very polite, and a mod has already warned the thread.

Simple English eludes people.

More unwarranted rudeness.

May is not must.

may =/= must

The window opens at step 2 (may). Proceeds thru selecting weapons (step 3) and closes the instant before "to hit" rolls are made (step 4).

Edit: clarifications and rewording.

No, that's only true if you ignore the first sentence. When X happens you may do Y. Nothing is forcing you to do Y, that's why it says "may".

I agree with rigeld on the interpretation but not based on his explanation, more so on the point where the only time you are given permission to jink is when your opponent declares the target, nowhere does it say you may declare jink when your opponent declares which weapon he/she will be firing.

Then I would ask what do you have available in the shooting unit and make my decision based on that.

How often would something like this come up anyway? Does the unit have something that can put hurt to me? If yes, jink.

Naw wrote:
Then I would ask what do you have available in the shooting unit and make my decision based on that.

How often would something like this come up anyway? Does the unit have something that can put hurt to me? If yes, jink.

Well for instance I could bring a monolith and declare 3 different targets on average and you would not know which unit I will be shooting my particle whip at and which weapons I will be shooting the tickle guns at. Same goes for split fire units, declare your shooting at 2 serpents with some Long Fangs and then fire a boltgun at one and the MLs at the other

I don't really see an issue here.

Rules wise I see my opportunity of jinking close when you roll to hit. If you declared several targets I would ask what weapons are used against each target.

I also don't have an issue of declaring jinking with all once you have decided to target them and told me what weapons there are.

So those are two examples and there are a few more, I am sure. I suppose this all falls back to the topic and combi weapons.

Just jink, save everyone's time.

 Leth wrote:

 Kojiro wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I am in the they have a window to say it until I roll my dice. HOWEVER if they dont declare jink by the time the dice hit the table they are out of luck.

See I would simply go step by step. I would select my unit (step 1). Then I would select it's target, a random jink rule model (step 2). As I have now selected said model as a target I would ask if the opponent wanted to jink as the conditions to use it have just been fulfilled. Now I'm not going to give him all day but I have no issue with waiting a few seconds for an answer. It's a yes or no answer- use an ability or don't. If I absent mindedly rolled without allowing for time to declare the jink I'd have no problem retroactively granting it if they wanted.

Do people think they're obliged to answer during step 2, when the condition is fulfilled? Do they think 'maybe' is an acceptable answer to a question about a binary state (I don't as it is not in any way useful)?

This is another one where I would do it in friendly play, but in tournament play I am not going to remember your rules for you. I am not going to remind you about hit and run, or anything of that nature. If you forget and constantly get do-overs you are never going to remember. I will do it once per game, but after that its on you.

The onus of rules remembering is on the owning player (in tournaments). Technically legal, although probably not good sportsmanship. (Assuming tourneys track such things.)

I know that I certainly don't do it in a tourney unless I feel like I'm pretty sure to win and just want to make up ground with my opponent socially, in order to finagle a higher sportsmanship score.

Here's a question though: this is pretty much the only example I can think of like this. (Where your opponent has to declare something in between two of YOUR actions, giving you the opportunity to do them so fast he doesn't even get a chance to make the declaration.) Is there a minimum time period we should be allowing for the declaration?

I'm for the window, you do have to give your opponent a chance to say something.

I can easily go, in less time than it takes you to read the sentence.
(1)these orks are shooting (2)those jinkers, (3)starting with big shootas, (4)/rolls 9d6.

I followed the sequence, oh you want to jink? sorry you didn't speak up quick enough.

Play nice people, stop and ask if your opponent if they would care to jink when you think it should be declared.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Leth wrote:

 Kojiro wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I am in the they have a window to say it until I roll my dice. HOWEVER if they dont declare jink by the time the dice hit the table they are out of luck.

See I would simply go step by step. I would select my unit (step 1). Then I would select it's target, a random jink rule model (step 2). As I have now selected said model as a target I would ask if the opponent wanted to jink as the conditions to use it have just been fulfilled. Now I'm not going to give him all day but I have no issue with waiting a few seconds for an answer. It's a yes or no answer- use an ability or don't. If I absent mindedly rolled without allowing for time to declare the jink I'd have no problem retroactively granting it if they wanted.

Do people think they're obliged to answer during step 2, when the condition is fulfilled? Do they think 'maybe' is an acceptable answer to a question about a binary state (I don't as it is not in any way useful)?

This is another one where I would do it in friendly play, but in tournament play I am not going to remember your rules for you. I am not going to remind you about hit and run, or anything of that nature. If you forget and constantly get do-overs you are never going to remember. I will do it once per game, but after that its on you.

The onus of rules remembering is on the owning player (in tournaments). Technically legal, although probably not good sportsmanship. (Assuming tourneys track such things.)

I know that I certainly don't do it in a tourney unless I feel like I'm pretty sure to win and just want to make up ground with my opponent socially, in order to finagle a higher sportsmanship score.

Here's a question though: this is pretty much the only example I can think of like this. (Where your opponent has to declare something in between two of YOUR actions, giving you the opportunity to do them so fast he doesn't even get a chance to make the declaration.) Is there a minimum time period we should be allowing for the declaration?

I am going to give them at least a two count minimum. The amount of time it will typically require me to measure range to a target, declare a target, grab my dice, declare a weapon and then shoot is more then enough time to determine if you are going to jink or not, which is only fair. I will give them until we see the hit results to choose to jink or not, so while the dice are still moving they are good. After that its too late. Hell I expect them to have decided in their head by the time they see me measuring ranges. They will have plenty of time to decide before I even declare.

Once again in learning games I will help them for the first two-three turns, and then in friendlies I will be more relaxed about it. However in competition I will let it slide once, and then its on you to remember. Plus if they forget once and dont get take-backsies they are more likely to remember the rest of the game.

I dont want to sound like an donkey-cave, in friendly games I have been rolling armor penetration when they wanted to declare jink and I have been cool with it. Hell in the final table of the last tournament I let a guy hit and run from the previous turn during his shooting phase as well as cheat because I didnt want an arguement.

Naw wrote:
Then I would ask what do you have available in the shooting unit and make my decision based on that.

How often would something like this come up anyway? Does the unit have something that can put hurt to me? If yes, jink.

I have a single combi-Melta left. Shooting it at you when you Jink significantly increases the chance I waste it. So your decision to Jink influences my decision to fire it.

rigeld2 wrote:

Naw wrote:
Then I would ask what do you have available in the shooting unit and make my decision based on that.

How often would something like this come up anyway? Does the unit have something that can put hurt to me? If yes, jink.

I have a single combi-Melta left. Shooting it at you when you Jink significantly increases the chance I waste it. So your decision to Jink influences my decision to fire it.

As a Salamander player who fields combi-meltas on almost every model that can take one, I think this situation would come up frequently.

So fire a krak grenade first to see what they decide to do.

Unless there is only one model in the unit without a combi weapon then this should take care of it.

I am not too worried about it as I figure most players would not want to risk forgetting to wait and see what you fire

Like I said, I would ask what do you have? You respond that you have combi-meltas available. I would immediately declare jink. If you then decide not to waste your melta shots but shoot ineffective bolters and whatnot then I've already saved a turn.

If you split fire, you again need to let me know who shoots and I would again jink as you have fusion guns.

Naw wrote:
Like I said, I would ask what do you have? You respond that you have combi-meltas available. I would immediately declare jink. If you then decide not to waste your melta shots but shoot ineffective bolters and whatnot then I've already saved a turn.

If you split fire, you again need to let me know who shoots and I would again jink as you have fusion guns.

But that means he makes you fire snapshots next turn just by firing a bolter at you.

A marine raises a combi weapon at you... are you really gonna wait to see which barrel flashes before taking evasive action?

 milkboy wrote:

Naw wrote:
Like I said, I would ask what do you have? You respond that you have combi-meltas available. I would immediately declare jink. If you then decide not to waste your melta shots but shoot ineffective bolters and whatnot then I've already saved a turn.

If you split fire, you again need to let me know who shoots and I would again jink as you have fusion guns.

But that means he makes you fire snapshots next turn just by firing a bolter at you.

Is that a problem? Isn't that what is supposed to happen? My unit would still be alive, able to get distance or do whatever.

Naw wrote:

 milkboy wrote:

Naw wrote:
Like I said, I would ask what do you have? You respond that you have combi-meltas available. I would immediately declare jink. If you then decide not to waste your melta shots but shoot ineffective bolters and whatnot then I've already saved a turn.

If you split fire, you again need to let me know who shoots and I would again jink as you have fusion guns.

But that means he makes you fire snapshots next turn just by firing a bolter at you.

Is that a problem? Isn't that what is supposed to happen? My unit would still be alive, able to get distance or do whatever.

But normally a bolter shouldn't be able to penetrate any vehicle. And 1 in 6 chance to glance things with AV 10.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So if your skimmer is AV 11, you have jinked for no benefit.

I know that. But I also know you have melta weapons in range. If you don't shoot with them, I have gained more than I have lost.

Like I said, that is how I would play it even if the rules allowed me to wait until you declare what you shoot. I don't expect anyone to do it like this:

"I target your jinker." [pause] "You may jink. You don't yet? I fire my meltas." [pause] "You may still jink..? And you do." [roll for to hit]

It would be more like declaring target, waiting/discussing what arsenal you got, then announce what you fire with and throw dice for those.

I am also quite sure the intent was to force the decision earlier, but they failed with the rules.

I guess that is the reason why there is disagreement on the interpretation. With vague rules come variance in interpretation, akin to great power and great responsibility.

I can see how both sides can be interpreted in the eyes of those who strongly believe in their viewpoints. There will likely be no conclusion to suit all. What this thread can hope to do is flesh out both sides of the argument and let readers decide HTWPI. By extending the thread and repeating the same points to those who will not change their minds only lead to TLDR complex for those others who are not so involved in the discussion.

So.....stop the feeding!

rigeld2 wrote:
I do see the word "When".

When X happens, you may do Y.
Does that mean you can do Y at some time after X happens?

Yes, that is exactly what it means!
That's because the word "When" is not only a time-indication, but can also talk about a condition being met.

According to the dictionary 'when' can have two substitutions:
a) "At the time that/As soon as" a unit with any models with the Jink special rule...
b) "If/while" a unit with any models with the Jink special rule...

If you go with the meaning of 'A)', you are right because it means you have to chose right away.
If you follow the meaning of 'B)', you are wrong because it means you can chose as long as it's the target of a shooting attack (but BEFORE to-hit rolls are made).

So the question would be: "Does 'when' indicate a condition being met or is it a timing?"
In this instance both are perfectly fine.
But I am leaning to option B) due to the "before to hit rolls are made"-ruling.

While a unit with the Jink special rule is selected as a target...

Doesn't work as being selected is a single instant and not a state of being.

 milkboy wrote:
I guess that is the reason why there is disagreement on the interpretation. With vague rules come variance in interpretation, akin to great power and great responsibility.

I can see how both sides can be interpreted in the eyes of those who strongly believe in their viewpoints. There will likely be no conclusion to suit all. What this thread can hope to do is flesh out both sides of the argument and let readers decide HTWPI. By extending the thread and repeating the same points to those who will not change their minds only lead to TLDR complex for those others who are not so involved in the discussion.

So.....stop the feeding!

Most of the time people dont come here for how they would actually play it, the point is to argue the actual RAW of the rules. Many times I post about a loophole not because I actually plan to use it, but rather defending it forces me to become more acquainted with the rules. Same when I see someone elses argument, I then have to go look up the wording of the rule and in the process learn something I had missed before.

I enjoy it because then I learn the rules better as a result of finding holes in the rules. Also since I plan to start traveling to game soon it is good to know all the different ways a rule might be interpreted so I am prepared.

'When' is a trigger.

"When I move you may try to hit me with a ball before I stop moving."

During that defined window of opportunity you may or you might not throw the ball.

Does it make sense in the game? I would allow it and try to kill my enemy anyway.

rigeld2 wrote:
While a unit with the Jink special rule is selected as a target...

Doesn't work as being selected is a single instant and not a state of being.

Sorry to quibble but...

Being selected is a state of being, as the word is past tense. Selecting a unit is a single moment in time as the tense is present.

Using your earlier example.

When I say Banana is present tense. This is a single instant

When I have said Banana is past tense. This is a state of being.

The Jink rule is written in past tense.

Cheers

Andrew

hmm... looks like the word of 'may' is what is really causing confusion...

I originally was on the side that you don't have to declare Jink at Step 2, but had to do it before Step 4. So in rigeld's analogy I would expect my $5.

But I can also see how failing to do it on Step 2 mean's you no longer have permission to perform the Jink.

Overall I would probably lean towards Rigeld's answer as it stops sillyness from occurring. When someone mentioned reaching for his large blast orbital bombard and then changing it to a Krak after they jinked, the process that rigeld uses would stop this from occurring as they have to declare Jink before the weapon is even mentioned.

It also stops the game just being stalled forever when one person says "I might Jink, what weapon will you use?"

"I don't know what weapon I will use, I will wait until you jink or not" etc etc

This is ofc a HIWPI post - but seeing how both sides can be argued for the idea of the least stupid result feels important.

Jacob29 wrote:
hmm... looks like the word of 'may' is what is really causing confusion... .

It shouldn't be. The 'may' in there just gives you the choice of whether or not to jink. It has nothing to do with when it happens.

You may choose to jink when you are selected as a target.

Nothing says you may not choose any other time [oh the irony..]

decisions must be made before to hit rolls.

So the first one tells you that you may do something, but doesn't say you may not do it any other time.

The second one tells you, that you have to have done it before to hit rolls.

therefore you may choose to jink after being selected as a target, after weapons are chosen, but before to hit rolls are made.

- Removed by insaniak. Please see Dakka's Rule #1 -

The may is part of the sentence that tells you what triggers a use of Jink, which is shooting attacks. Timing is explicit in the second sentence.

 dg3263827 wrote:
He MAY declare Jink WHEN targeted but he MUST declare Jink before To Hit rolls.

If you are so adamant that Jink can ONLY be declared WHEN targeted, how do you explain the second sentence?

My guess is that people seem to forget that we shoot all like weapons separately in batches. So if you shoot the first batch of weapons and the target does not Jink, he will not be able to jink for any later batches of weapons from that unit because "any To Hit rolls" have been made this resolution cycle. Much the same as overwatch...use it or lose it on the first charge.

Jink is now use it or lose it on first targeting.

Fragile wrote:
The may is part of the sentence that tells you what triggers a use of Jink, which is shooting attacks. Timing is explicit in the second sentence.

Another incorrect statement.
The trigger is not shooting attacks. It's being selected as a target.
The rule has been quoted often in this thread - do you need me to quote it again?

Jink wrote:When a unit with any models with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink.

Can we agree that this is explicit timing- that the very instant an attacker declares an attack the defender may declare jink?

Even if we define it as a time period- when selected and before To Hit Rolls- which would be a period of Step 2 to Step 3- it's still explicitly defined.

Could we then say that, as per the Sequencing rules we now have two players waiting on each other to declare something? As Jacob29 said you can end up in a circle of 'What are you shooting/Are you jinking?'.

BRB wrote:While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or similar. When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order.

If that's the case, where then either at step 2 or 3- however you define the window- one player must declare something before the other player. It would seem in the case of the tie the attacker chooses the order and would naturally force Jink to be resolved first.

Does that seem to work?

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
The may is part of the sentence that tells you what triggers a use of Jink, which is shooting attacks. Timing is explicit in the second sentence.

Another incorrect statement.
The trigger is not shooting attacks. It's being selected as a target.
The rule has been quoted often in this thread - do you need me to quote it again?

Quote it all you like. Until you accept the fact that the second sentence is the most specific rule as to when the ability is used its a moot point.

The issue is the first sentence says me way do something, it doesn't say we may not do it at other times.

The second sentence says it must be done by a certain point.

The second one is more specific, not only is it so but given that if we say the first one saying you may do something when x happens, and then -infer- what was not written to mean that we may only do it at that time, then the RAW that is the second sentence would be broken if we waited until before to hit rolls happen, since that is more than immediately after when a target is declared.

Of course as pointed out by another poster above, if a unit is firing a series of different weapon types if you do not jink when the first to hit rolls are made, since you must junk before to hit rolls are made, you may no longer jink versus the other weapons.

Much like overwatch fire I guess, if you opt to not shoot the first unit charging you, you are not overwatching the other units charging you.

blaktoof wrote:
The issue is the first sentence says me way do something, it doesn't say we may not do it at other times.

I may hit your models with a hammer. There isn't a rule saying I can't.

"It doesn't say I can't." isn't the right way to argue a point. You have permission at a specific point to declare Jink. Not a single person has proven that permission extends past being selected as a target - it's all just assumptions and "It doesn't say we can't."

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The issue is the first sentence says me way do something, it doesn't say we may not do it at other times.

I may hit your models with a hammer. There isn't a rule saying I can't.

"It doesn't say I can't." isn't the right way to argue a point. You have permission at a specific point to declare Jink. Not a single person has proven that permission extends past being selected as a target - it's all just assumptions and "It doesn't say we can't."

Except for, you know, the explicit timing mentioned in the second sentence. You can houserule it where you play, but looking at RAW, you have until to-hit rolls are made" As That Is What It Says."

 Lobomalo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The issue is the first sentence says me way do something, it doesn't say we may not do it at other times.

I may hit your models with a hammer. There isn't a rule saying I can't.

"It doesn't say I can't." isn't the right way to argue a point. You have permission at a specific point to declare Jink. Not a single person has proven that permission extends past being selected as a target - it's all just assumptions and "It doesn't say we can't."

Except for, you know, the explicit timing mentioned in the second sentence. You can houserule it where you play, but looking at RAW, you have until to-hit rolls are made" As That Is What It Says."

The explicit timing is in the first sentence as is the permission. You're assuming permission exists for the second sentence.
Prove it. For once.

Already have, as have others. It gives you a timing of when the Jink rolls need to be made by. Being targeted is simply the trigger that puts the timing into action. You simply want a declarative statement stating thus, but you won't find it. What you will find though, if you actually read and take the time to understand, which you never really seem to do, is that the rules lay out for you exactly how it should be done.

-Removed by insaniak. Please see Dakka's Rule #1. -

The answer is there, it is not on me to prove anything as I have the rules to support this, you, have nothing more than a sentence, not the entire rule as your support, which means you have nothing.

So, you forfeit the debate, your argument has been made invalid and I'm just about done with the topic as the answer has been given to the original poster and others.

Peace!

Yeah yeah mods, either you'll edit my post violating my free speech or send me a warning, either way, allowing this thread to continue is a dereliction of duty.

Lobo - so when given two conditions satisfying one is sufficient? Cool, you can assault from a landraider that turned up from reserves. After all, one of two conditions was met.

Nope, not the rules, at all

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Lobo - so when given two conditions satisfying one is sufficient? Cool, you can assault from a landraider that turned up from reserves. After all, one of two conditions was met.

Nope, not the rules, at all

You're as mistaken as he is.

The first condition is the Trigger. The second condition is the Expiration. If you cannot understand this, you should not be playing this game honestly.

 Lobomalo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Lobo - so when given two conditions satisfying one is sufficient? Cool, you can assault from a landraider that turned up from reserves. After all, one of two conditions was met.

Nope, not the rules, at all

You're as mistaken as he is.

The first condition is the Trigger. The second condition is the Expiration. If you cannot understand this, you should not be playing this game honestly.

It's a trigger and a timing. You can refuse to recognize that all you want, but personal attacks are never warranted.

Lobo, first...learn what the 1st amendment protects and from whom it protects us from before to throw it out there.

On topic, I believe you are the one mistaken. There is nothing in the rule that supports (or even hints to) the idea that there is a range of steps that we can choose to jink. The sentence you keep throwing around is there to put a constraint on declaring jink. Just like being locked in combat puts a constraint on over watch.

The statement "declare X, may declare Y" is pretty simple concept. In this instance, "declared as target in the targeting step, targeted unit may declare jink...unless to Hit rolls have been made.". This in no way suggests you may hold off declaring over a range of steps.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobomalo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Lobo - so when given two conditions satisfying one is sufficient? Cool, you can assault from a landraider that turned up from reserves. After all, one of two conditions was met.

Nope, not the rules, at all

You're as mistaken as he is.

The first condition is the Trigger. The second condition is the Expiration. If you cannot understand this, you should not be playing this game honestly.

It's a trigger and a timing. You can refuse to recognize that all you want, but personal attacks are never warranted.

That, was nowhere near a personal attack. That was an observation of your behavior across these forums for the last week. I took the time to look through some of your posts and you truly are incredibly argumentative, especially when something is blatantly obvious.

Back on point. Trigger/timing? Not really. A trigger denotes the beginning of an action, not the time it takes for an action to be done. You are clearly told when you can do something. You are then told when you must do something by. Following proper procedure for the step by step nature of what a player needs to do before he gets to the to-hit rolls, the answer, like in so many of the topics you comment on, becomes obvious.



See it or don't, I care not. I spend too much time talking on the forums as it is, I'm going to find a game I think.

 Lobomalo wrote:
Already have, as have others. It gives you a timing of when the Jink rolls need to be made by. Being targeted is simply the trigger that puts the timing into action. You simply want a declarative statement stating thus, but you won't find it. What you will find though, if you actually read and take the time to understand, which you never really seem to do, is that the rules lay out for you exactly how it should be done.

I underlined an assumption without merit. It's also only there to be derogatory.
I think it's interesting that you refuse to acknowledge the timing involved in the first sentence.

The answer is there, it is not on me to prove anything as I have the rules to support this, you, have nothing more than a sentence, not the entire rule as your support, which means you have nothing.

That's absolutely incorrect. The entire rule does support my argument, as I've said and shown. Your argument makes an assumption without rules support, as I've shown.

Yeah yeah mods, either you'll edit my post violating my free speech or send me a warning, either way, allowing this thread to continue is a dereliction of duty.

You do realize that a) insulting the mods isn't cool and b) there's no such thing as free speech on a private forum?

 hisdudeness wrote:
Lobo, first...learn what the 1st amendment protects and from whom it protects us from before to throw it out there.

On topic, I believe you are the one mistaken. There is nothing in the rule that supports (or even hints to) the idea that there is a range of steps that we can choose to jink. The sentence you keep throwing around is there to put a constraint on declaring jink. Just like being locked in combat puts a constraint on over watch.

The statement "declare X, may declare Y" is pretty simple concept. In this instance, "declared as target in the targeting step, targeted unit may declare jink...unless to Hit rolls have been made.". This in no way suggests you may hold off declaring over a range of steps.

First, who in the bloody, nvm are you?

Have you read the thread? Obviously not. Or you wouldn't spout off like you knew something, you don't.

Second. Read the rule, you'll notice when the action begins, you'll notice when it ends. Don't like it, play it however you want, just don't go around telling people they are wrong when the rules clearly state otherwise. Then again, it states clearly for those who are objective on the subject, or who can put 2 and 2 together.

Does it really matter who I am? I'm a dude on the interwebz having a discussion about a game we all play. That's all the qualification needed to be here. I'm not sure what your point is..

I have read the rule and the thread...which has the rule posted a good number of times. Your interpretation of the second sentence is incorrect and it has been shown as such, in different ways quite a few times.

When targetted you may declare jink.

You "may". The window of opportunity opens.

The decision must be made before to hit rolls are made.

"Must" the window is now closing.


Lobo - 17287 posts - argumentative is right.

jamesk1973 wrote:
When targetted you may declare jink.

You "may". The window of opportunity opens.

Your assumption that "When" is simply a trigger and not also timing is interesting. What do you have to support that assumption?

Lobo - 17287 posts - argumentative is right.

Again - why is post count relevant?

So, we seem to be beyond the point where anything new is being added, and people are for some reason getting cranky that others have a different opinion to their own... So I think we're done here.