I need a place to vent about the changes to Orks (and I feel others do as well).
I walked away from Orks in 6th, because that edition was not kind to them. I've played a few games of 6.5, and had high hopes our book would have been brought up to the current power level in the game. Unfortunately, whomever the design team was for this book, they dropped the ball on how this army plays.
I can't help but feel that as a CC army, I'm actually afaird to get my units into CC. The Shooty elements that were given don't do enought to make up for our holes. The point reductions don't seem to be enough, especially when partnered the point increases in other areas, and rule nerfs.
I've gone through a lot of edition/codex/army book changes, but this by far the worst army design I've ever seen.
Ok, I feel better now.
** I understand the book isn't out yet. However the leaked book info is enough to give any veteran Ork player the fell of the new book.
Hmmm. I thought 6th edition was very kind to Orks as long as you didn't pump a lot of points into vehicles. But I guess everyone views things differently.
You couldn't have picked one of the other bitch threads? Was a new thread necessary.
You don't even have the Codex yet. Chill out, there will be some good builds that come out of the Codex, that is apparent already.
If you were afraid of getting Boyz in CC, maybe Orks is the wrong army.
Please stop your bitching, don't waste space with this thread, wait for the codex, and play it and adapt with the times. It's not on par with Eldar, but it certainly going to be around middle of the pack.
Please stop wasting time and space when there are many Ork bitch threads all over the place already.
I feel like, from what rumors I've heard, we got far better at assault. Free Stikkbombs, free Mini-Fleet every turn, (Reroll 1D6 instead of as many dice as needed,) and our WAAAGH lets us run and charge against. Orks now have a 30" threat range for Assault, and an average ability to charge anyone 18" away very consistently.
Zagman wrote: You couldn't have picked one of the other bitch threads? Was a new thread necessary.
You don't even have the Codex yet. Chill out, there will be some good builds that come out of the Codex, that is apparent already.
If you were afraid of getting Boyz in CC, maybe Orks is the wrong army.
Please stop your bitching, don't waste space with this thread, wait for the codex, and play it and adapt with the times. It's not on par with Eldar, but it certainly going to be around middle of the pack.
Please stop wasting time and space when there are many Ork bitch threads all over the place already.
Pretty sure you're not a mod so how about you let the poster post what he wants without attacking him for doing so. He's not breaking any rules and if he was, the mods need to reprimand him, not you.
Zagman wrote: You couldn't have picked one of the other bitch threads? Was a new thread necessary.
You don't even have the Codex yet. Chill out, there will be some good builds that come out of the Codex, that is apparent already.
If you were afraid of getting Boyz in CC, maybe Orks is the wrong army.
Please stop your bitching, don't waste space with this thread, wait for the codex, and play it and adapt with the times. It's not on par with Eldar, but it certainly going to be around middle of the pack.
Please stop wasting time and space when there are many Ork bitch threads all over the place already.
Pretty sure you're not a mod so how about you let the poster post what he wants without attacking him for doing so. He's not breaking any rules and if he was, the mods need to reprimand him, not you.
So you are defending his right to post a pointless thread like this when the forum is littered with threads where a post like his would fit in with the hundreds of others. It's redundant and that is against Forum rules.
I'm defending his right to post what he wants in the manner he has, as it has broken no rules.
You're no one special here, you have no administrative privileges nor are you in any way morally superior. Perhaps rather than 'wasting time' you should post in other threads that could benefit from your input.
Also, since we're discussing rules, maybe you should just press the 'yellow triangle of friendship' if this thread is so offensive.
Ahh, but I have the right to post, just ask Frankenberry.
I was referring to the "What did people actually want from the Ork Codex?" Thread located to below this one.
And "Orks in 7th edition" located on the first page in tactics.
And "Ork Rumors" located at the top of News and rumors.
All, except tactics, would have been appropriate. As the codex has not been released, and you yourself do not have access to it, Ork Rumors would have been most appropriate. Especially as there are dozens and dozens of posts just like it with enough consideration not to start a new thread. And since you are familiar with those rumors, I'm guessing you were there and still opted to create a new thread. I'd strongly suggest you wait until you actually have the codex, or move it to Rumors.
I will no longer be posting here as this thread is merely wasting space and doesn't need to be bumped any further.
So would you rather have the Tyranid codex? It sucks it seems you got the Nid treatment, but just wait for the codex to come out.
One thing I hated about people dissing the Nid codex is they haven't even tried it out. For the crap GW gets for not playtesting, you are doing the same.
So if you can't even play test first before complaining, then GW is doing EVERYTHING correctly when they don't play test properly.
After all if everyone else can Mathhammer, so can GW when it releases it books and not play test. What I am saying is, don't blame GW for poor balance when people can't playtest as well.
Davor wrote: So would you rather have the Tyranid codex? It sucks it seems you got the Nid treatment, but just wait for the codex to come out.
One thing I hated about people dissing the Nid codex is they haven't even tried it out. For the crap GW gets for not playtesting, you are doing the same.
So if you can't even play test first before complaining, then GW is doing EVERYTHING correctly when they don't play test properly.
After all if everyone else can Mathhammer, so can GW when it releases it books and not play test. What I am saying is, don't blame GW for poor balance when people can't playtest as well.
Wait, what? You're saying people need to play test before complaining and then use Tyranids as an example... except many of the Tyranid complaints were valid. Most the Tyranid complaints I read back then centered on a severe lack of internal balance. Most Tyranid complaints I read now still focus on a severe lack of internal balance. There were also complaints that the power level of the Codex was low, which is valid depending on which other armies you use as measuring sticks.
Personally, I like to see how the complaints and compliments evolve from pre-release rumours through the first few months of a codex. You might lambaste players for not playtesting, but the fact is we HAVE been play testing the previous edition for 2 years, and people have been playtesting the old Ork codex across 6 and a half years and 2 editions, so while it might not be ideal, we can typically make educated guesses at what changes in the Codex will what affect the table.
what we know is that orks can unleash massed firepower from basically any unit in their army. we also have the big gunz which are ludicrously cheap unless you're talking money, in which case I'll introduce you to plasticard. orks can move, run and assault in the same turn, and can re-roll a charge dice. so lets summarise how we deal with the problem of being "afraid to get into combat":
1: Ork up. no point having models with 2 attacks base if you don't use it. Get in there and show 'em what-for!
2: Pick your targets. sending a lone unit of trukkas at a tau firing line is suicide from the off. overwatch sounds scary but it isn't, there's never enough shots to cause serious damage.
3: Get their heads down. a unit of big guns with kustom mega-kannons can load enough wounds onto a unit that they'll be going to ground just to survive. bada-bing bada-boom, the overwatch is gone. charge in safety.
the important thing to remember is we's da orks. we'll make it work, and if slugga boys and trukks are just as cheap, and powerklaw nobs are cheaper, I say we've gotten better.
I think my biggest disappointment with this codex, and I've said this in the N&R thread, is that they just dropped the ball with Waaagh in the worst way.
When the Jets were introduced, we got the Waaagh Plane rule. The first indication that Waaagh affects different ork units in different ways. I understand that Run was useless to a Flyer, but it's the concept that they should have run with. Why do my Lootas or my Flash Gitz charge into combat when their love is Dakka? Why not then let Waaagh give some benefit to Dakka units? You had the precedent for it. It would also give you a way to differentiate Slugga and Shoota boyz without having to change costs needlessly.
Instead they took the easy, lazy route. Nerfed Waaagh Plane, kept Waaagh the same so my shooty units don't really get anything from it, and called it a day. GW's new methodology in a nutshell I guess.
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lobbywatson wrote: Just how many games does the OP have in with the new codex? I wasn't sure I'm just asking...
Allow me to give you an extreme example: If I told you your main troop units suddenly increased in cost by 10 points a model, lost their armor save, but gained Adamantium Will. Would you need to test that? If I removed all saves, armor and invulnerable from your codex, would you need to play 10 games before realizing that your codex was just nerfed?
Believe it or not, I don't have to throw a bunch of dice to be able to look at something and say "that's not a good value", or "Pyrovores still suck". Reading comprehension is a thing that actually exists, and makes people able to understand the mechanics of something. I know that sounds crazy, but it's true.
Yeah that sounds kind of crappy. So they didn't add anything else to the codex or make any other changes for the last 4 weeks in WD? Probably no chance you could play a different combo and have any good games? I'm just saying don't jump off a bridge yet. You never know. We have seen SOME of the codex not all. Remember the big leak here the guy claimed to be half loaded when he was reading it.
Yeah that sounds kind of crappy. So they didn't add anything else to the codex or make any other changes for the last 4 weeks in WD? Probably no chance you could play a different combo and have any good games? I'm just saying don't jump off a bridge yet. You never know. We have seen SOME of the codex not all. Remember the big leak here the guy claimed to be half loaded when he was reading it.
People who tell us to "stop bitching" tend to cling to this ridiculous idea that all the complaining is about power level and won't believe anyone who says otherwise. But I'll repeat my usual line, hoping against hope that at least one person will be rational enough to understand it.
Yeah, nobody has played any games with the book yet. It's true that some hidden gem power list might be discovered after playtesting. But one power build does not make it a good codex. A good codex allows you to take whatever you like and have a chance. Don't tell me I don't have a right to complain about units A through X being bad just because Y and Z are good.
Yeah that sounds kind of crappy. So they didn't add anything else to the codex or make any other changes for the last 4 weeks in WD? Probably no chance you could play a different combo and have any good games? I'm just saying don't jump off a bridge yet. You never know. We have seen SOME of the codex not all. Remember the big leak here the guy claimed to be half loaded when he was reading it.
Mel has had a copy of the codex for about a week now, so I think we're done on surprise changes. We pretty much know what the codex is.
I should be clear my examples were extreme and not actually what happened to Orks (except removing invulnerable saves, that one happened for the most part). I also have a Warboss Edition on its way, so no bridge jumping either.
I play a bunch of armies, in fact, the last 4 (maybe 5?) releases have all been armies I play. Orks, Guard, Tyranids, Space Marines, Sisters. Ignoring Sisters (which sadly, they're used to ), there's a trend with these 4. I was quite happy with Space Marines. No major overhauls, but the Chapter Tactics system was nice, nothing got completely borked, and the new stuff was interesting and exciting. Then Tyranids got mangled. Then Guard, and sure they lost a bunch of special characters (RIP Marbo RIP Bastonne ), but the overall codex remained pretty solid and on-par. Now Orks. They could have done something with Orks. Given them something. You'd think with a 3 edition old codex, they would have seized the opportunity to do something exciting. Maybe throw Klan rules back in ala the Chapter Tactics of Space Marines; nope, nothing. Maybe put Minderz back in for Weirdboyz and make them a proper unit choice; nope, Weirdboyz still have 0 options beyond upping their ML. We got the Tyranid treatment: seemingly arbitrary changes in points (and sometimes FOC slots), nerfs in places we were strong (but hey, when the strong get nerfed internal balance is achieved!), and giving us back a few things that were taken away (sup Waaagh). Then they call it a day.
They could have made the Orks codex great. They could have done something.
lobbywatson wrote: Just how many games does the OP have in with the new codex? I wasn't sure I'm just asking...
Allow me to give you an extreme example: If I told you your main troop units suddenly increased in cost by 10 points a model, lost their armor save, but gained Adamantium Will. Would you need to test that? If I removed all saves, armor and invulnerable from your codex, would you need to play 10 games before realizing that your codex was just nerfed?
Believe it or not, I don't have to throw a bunch of dice to be able to look at something and say "that's not a good value", or "Pyrovores still suck". Reading comprehension is a thing that actually exists, and makes people able to understand the mechanics of something. I know that sounds crazy, but it's true.
Or in this case our main troops did not increase by 10 pts but dropped by 1.
Everything and it's dog was denying Ork saves, play tau and you don't get a single save all game. So does it really matter that half the saves are gone? Now you're not wasting points on something that will be denied. And gone is the limit on 'Ard Boys. So armour your army if you want!
And Ork invulnerables were never great. Their loss will bearly be noticed. For shooting we now have a 5++ invulnerble from the KFF if needed. Combat is the same as before, either they kill the Warboss or he kills them.
Getting more Ork bodies into combat is way more important than the terrible saves we used to have available. And THAT is an improvment that is all over the codex. Run and Charge has been mentioned already. Re-rolls. +2" charge range out of a vehicle (and vehicles themselves are tougher in this edition).
The book has had an overhaul. There's too many people focusing on the negative changes and comparing them to the old Codex.
Fresh thinking is needed here, get out of the old ways they don't work anymore.
"The Tyranid Treatment" - That's were the internet cried for months, then they actually played a few games and found they're actually pretty solid (but continue to cry).
Believe it or not, I don't have to throw a bunch of dice to be able to look at something and say "that's not a good value", or "Pyrovores still suck". Reading comprehension is a thing that actually exists, and makes people able to understand the mechanics of something. I know that sounds crazy, but it's true.
I think the problem is that people are ignoring the potential to have 5++/5+++ pseudo-fleeting Waaagh! Boy squads. There's a lot of complaints about what was lost, but not much about what was gained.
Believe it or not, I don't have to throw a bunch of dice to be able to look at something and say "that's not a good value", or "Pyrovores still suck". Reading comprehension is a thing that actually exists, and makes people able to understand the mechanics of something. I know that sounds crazy, but it's true.
I think the problem is that people are ignoring the potential to have 5++/5+++ pseudo-fleeting Waaagh! Boy squads. There's a lot of complaints about what was lost, but not much about what was gained.
In common with essentially every codex change, ever.
I have played a pseudo-game of 7th and I used the new Mek Gun rules in that list. I played a friends white scars bike list that was all bikes, and all the bikes scouted.
I had 3 units of 15 Lootas, 3 units of 3 KMK, 1 unit of nob bikes, w/ biker boss. I ended up winning the game , but that was mainly cause luck was on my side. Also there was a moment my Warboss accepted a challenge from Khan survived his S6 ID attack because of his 5++, then killed him.
Now with the new rules, that list is invalid. Also the list drops it's hitting and staying power.
*nobz can't be troops
*not enough slots for both Lootas & Mek Gunz
*no inv *have to now spend an extra grot unit tax
*lost exhaust cloud
I replay that game in my mind, with the new rules, and i don't think I would have done as well. I can't make that list work now, and it was the best I could find in this edition so far.
I get that we have to relearn Orks, but nothing so far leaked is striking me as, "WOW that'll really help my game play"... It's all been a bunch of Meh.
Davor wrote: So would you rather have the Tyranid codex? It sucks it seems you got the Nid treatment, but just wait for the codex to come out.
One thing I hated about people dissing the Nid codex is they haven't even tried it out. For the crap GW gets for not playtesting, you are doing the same.
So if you can't even play test first before complaining, then GW is doing EVERYTHING correctly when they don't play test properly.
After all if everyone else can Mathhammer, so can GW when it releases it books and not play test. What I am saying is, don't blame GW for poor balance when people can't playtest as well.
Wait, what? You're saying people need to play test before complaining and then use Tyranids as an example... except many of the Tyranid complaints were valid. Most the Tyranid complaints I read back then centered on a severe lack of internal balance. Most Tyranid complaints I read now still focus on a severe lack of internal balance. There were also complaints that the power level of the Codex was low, which is valid depending on which other armies you use as measuring sticks.
Personally, I like to see how the complaints and compliments evolve from pre-release rumours through the first few months of a codex. You might lambaste players for not playtesting, but the fact is we HAVE been play testing the previous edition for 2 years, and people have been playtesting the old Ork codex across 6 and a half years and 2 editions, so while it might not be ideal, we can typically make educated guesses at what changes in the Codex will what affect the table.
What I am saying is we give GW flak for not playtesting. So how can we COMPLAIN about lousy codicies when we do the same. We are claiming we are so much smarter than GW, but yet do the EXACT same thing and just mathhammer. So if we can Mathhamer and complain, GW can mathhammer and make codicies.
If we are making educated guesses, GW can make educated guesses as well and they have been doing it for 30 years now. (Fantasy included.) What I am saying is our complaining is invalidated since we are doing the same thing we say GW is doing. So how can we take our complaints seriously? If our complaints our valid, then GW design is valid as well.
In other words, we are Hypocrites. Doing what we complaint about.
Davor wrote: What I am saying is we give GW flak for not playtesting. So how can we COMPLAIN about lousy codicies when we do the same.
GW has to playtest because we pay them a premium to make good rules. Playtesting is a part of making good rules. No one has paid us to playtest, and not only that we *can't* playtest yet. When we can we will - until then, we'll discuss what we know. Nothing hypocritical about that in the slightest until GW start paying us.
*nobz can't be troops
*not enough slots for both Lootas & Mek Gunz
Unbound.
Guess I'll have to, but I feel that's a fail in game design.
Taking more than one primary detachment could also do the same..Seeing as a metric ton of boyz is a good thing, getting 4 or 6 troops isn't a huge deal.
grendel083 wrote:Or in this case our main troops did not increase by 10 pts but dropped by 1.
Everything and it's dog was denying Ork saves, play tau and you don't get a single save all game. So does it really matter that half the saves are gone? Now you're not wasting points on something that will be denied. And gone is the limit on 'Ard Boys. So armour your army if you want!
And Ork invulnerables were never great. Their loss will bearly be noticed. For shooting we now have a 5++ invulnerble from the KFF if needed. Combat is the same as before, either they kill the Warboss or he kills them.
Getting more Ork bodies into combat is way more important than the terrible saves we used to have available. And THAT is an improvment that is all over the codex. Run and Charge has been mentioned already. Re-rolls. +2" charge range out of a vehicle (and vehicles themselves are tougher in this edition).
The book has had an overhaul. There's too many people focusing on the negative changes and comparing them to the old Codex.
Fresh thinking is needed here, get out of the old ways they don't work anymore.
"The Tyranid Treatment" - That's were the internet cried for months, then they actually played a few games and found they're actually pretty solid (but continue to cry).
My next post made it quite clear that those were meant to be extreme examples, but not actually examples from the codex. As you say, we didn't have armor saves to begin with, so we can't exactly lose them. We also didn't lose access to 'Eavy Armor (which went down a point for Nobz squads and characters) or Mega Armor. I've been following N&R since day 1, I'm aware of the changes.
Ork invulnerable saves were never on par with other armies', no. But they were at least still there, and something to give you a chance. Now that chance is gone. If you don't think an invulnerable save was ever used, taken or noticed in close combat then I don't know what else to say.
More Ork bodies are necessary everywhere; the new Mob Rule makes that quite clear. When your units drop below 10 models, they are essentially in self destruct mode whether it's 9 boyz or 9 nobz. I'm also not sure how you think that improved 'all over the codex'. Ork boyz didn't go down in price; they're still 6 PPM (+1 for shootas now) unless you are counting the ridiculous notion that Stikkbombs actually matter for I2 boyz. Nobz dropped in price, unless you want them on Bikes in which case they cost the same. Lootas dropped 1ppm though! *finger twirl* The only unit with both a noticeable price drop AND noticeable buff was Tankbustas, which I readily and happily acknowledge are the squig's knees at this point. Tankhammer gains AP3? Sweet. Lost Glory Hogs forcing their attacks and movement? Extra sweet! Gained Tank Hunters, about frelling time! The only issue I can raise with Tankbustas is that their nobz don't have access to Bosspoles, which are almost mandatory for a unit that small. Which means you're basically forced to add another character to the unit to babysit.
"The Tyranid Treatment", where the codex was basically an uninspired copy/paste, new stuff not really adding anything lacking and none of the actual weaknesses shored up. Oh, and Leadership rules completely frelled sideways. Regardless of the strength of the codex builds (which I acknowledge can and will be found for the new Orks book), to pretend that the last 2 xenos releases have been a quality anywhere remotely on par with SM or IG is delusional.
I'll say it again, before I get the "you're not forced to play orks" or other such drivel. I have already ordered the Warboss edition of this release. I am in process of building war buggies (which saw a few buffs in the new book) and a Blitz Bomma (which also got buffed). I am not crying that this codex is the death of Orks as an army, or any sort of final nail in any sort of 40k/ork/whatever coffin. I am presenting the reality of this book: it is uninspired drivel, doing very little to shore up the weaknesses orks have suffered with for multiple editions, hurting orks with the garbage Mob Rule/Bosspole nerf, and basically passing up every single opportunity to make a 3 edition codex update an actual worthwhile update.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I think the problem is that people are ignoring the potential to have 5++/5+++ pseudo-fleeting Waaagh! Boy squads. There's a lot of complaints about what was lost, but not much about what was gained.
We're not. There's just also no such thing. 5++ KFF only applies to models, and only vs shooting. The 5+ FNP from a Painboy is very nice for Boyz though, and I have already said it will be a staple in a very, very crowded slot (HQ). Warbosses will have a hard time justifying their slot, honestly, having to compete with Big Meks (5++ KFF on a bike is nice for vehicles) and Pain Boyz (for 5+ FnP).
mrfantastical wrote: Now with the new rules, that list is invalid. Also the list drops it's hitting and staying power.
*nobz can't be troops
Actual loss. Nobz with objective secured might have been a bit strong though.
*not enough slots for both Lootas & Mek Gunz
Since they both fill the same role, I don't think that's a problem either field lootaz or mek gunz. Or just field four units of boyz and field both, it's not like mobs of 30 are mandatory anymore.
*no inv
Only relevant if you can't use your armor save and you're not protected by a KFF. Unless you're lucky you aren't going to beat Khan with a warboss either way.
*have to now spend an extra grot unit tax
Why? What for?
*lost exhaust cloud
As posted before in the other thread, jinking warbikers have lost less than 2% in efficiency compared to their 4th edition counterparts. You get more orks for less points and you only actually have to jink if someone is shooting you with AP4 or less weaponry. There is no need to jink against bolters since they don't ignore your 4+ armor, so you can return fire at full BS2 for almost twice as many hits per point spent than before.
Nob bikers aren't the top dog anymore, warbikers are.
I replay that game in my mind, with the new rules, and i don't think I would have done as well. I can't make that list work now, and it was the best I could find in this edition so far.
I get that we have to relearn Orks, but nothing so far leaked is striking me as, "WOW that'll really help my game play"... It's all been a bunch of Meh.
Well, of course you can't just take an old list, apply codex and hope for it to be better. That didn't even work well for eldar. Just look how many fire dragons there are nowadays, before their current codex every list was sporting three units.
However, if you change up your list a bit, it can easily become a lot better. Add a tenth cannon so you can have two batteries of 5 KMK, add 15 lootaz as third choice. Use all those point from your nob bikers and lootaz and turn them into three units of 15 bikers, add your choice of painboy on a bike or KFF on a bike, another unit gets the warboss with his brand new lukky stikk for +1 WS and 2 rerolls a turn. Duplicate whatever boyz unit you were using before and you've got your playstyle back to what is was like before, with a bunch of new and efficient units.
What I am saying is we give GW flak for not playtesting. So how can we COMPLAIN about lousy codicies when we do the same. We are claiming we are so much smarter than GW, but yet do the EXACT same thing and just mathhammer. So if we can Mathhamer and complain, GW can mathhammer and make codicies.
If we are making educated guesses, GW can make educated guesses as well and they have been doing it for 30 years now. (Fantasy included.) What I am saying is our complaining is invalidated since we are doing the same thing we say GW is doing. So how can we take our complaints seriously? If our complaints our valid, then GW design is valid as well.
In other words, we are Hypocrites. Doing what we complaint about.
Because we are not the frelling game designers! How hard is that to understand? We are not the ones being literally paid to create the game, we are the ones PAYING money to play. Do you expect to play test board games? Of course not! This is no different! If we can see within 5 minutes of seeing a codex that Pyrovores are awful in every single way, why in the world are the paid game designers incapable of seeing that?
Davor wrote: What I am saying is we give GW flak for not playtesting. So how can we COMPLAIN about lousy codicies when we do the same.
GW has to playtest because we pay them a premium to make good rules. Playtesting is a part of making good rules. No one has paid us to playtest, and not only that we *can't* playtest yet. When we can we will - until then, we'll discuss what we know. Nothing hypocritical about that in the slightest until GW start paying us.
And perfect example of why the world thinks we are weird. Complain about not trying something that is even out yet. No wonder we are labeled geeks and nerds.
I can't understand the fact either how can people complain about the codex before it is even out yet?
In my opintion complaining about Ork codex being nerfed is the worst out of all codex rants. Isn't the whole objective of playing an Ork army is about fun and not winning? heck even the orks themselves fight not for the win but for the enjoyment.
I would suggest the OP to at least get the codex first, have a read through and then make objective critisims to gain the internet sypathy?
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I think the problem is that people are ignoring the potential to have 5++/5+++ pseudo-fleeting Waaagh! Boy squads. There's a lot of complaints about what was lost, but not much about what was gained.
We're not. There's just also no such thing. 5++ KFF only applies to models, and only vs shooting. The 5+ FNP from a Painboy is very nice for Boyz though, and I have already said it will be a staple in a very, very crowded slot (HQ). Warbosses will have a hard time justifying their slot, honestly, having to compete with Big Meks (5++ KFF on a bike is nice for vehicles) and Pain Boyz (for 5+ FnP).
It's only the front Boyz that actually need the 5++ though, no? The rear of the mob isn't going to be taking shots anyway, and as such won't care about not having it. Further, Gorkanauts (or is that Morkanauts? Can't ever remember which one's which) also have KFF options, with the added bonus of covering a lot of Boyz with it, being AV13 5HP to mitigate the worst of the S7 anti-light tank spam.
Above all else though, the return of the "old" Waaagh! rule, along with pseudo-fleet, seems as though it'd help assaulty Orks tremendously. It's certainly better assault rules than any other melee army bar possibly Daemons has gotten since 6th hit.
wufai wrote: I can't understand the fact either how can people complain about the codex before it is even out yet?
In my opintion complaining about Ork codex being nerfed is the worst out of all codex rants. Isn't the whole objective of playing an Ork army is about fun and not winning? heck even the orks themselves fight not for the win but for the enjoyment.
I would suggest the OP to at least get the codex first, have a read through and then make objective critisims to gain the internet sypathy?
I play Dark Angels btw
It is out. Black Library messed up their download system and several people (including a dakkanaut) were able to download it. We know basically 100% of what is in it.
And no, the point of Orks like any other army in 40k is to play a game. Whether you play SUPAH HARDCORE MUST WIN or just for funsies is entirely the player, not the army. Getting really tired of that garbage being thrown about like orks exist purely to get the snot kicked out of them by other armies, and all ork players are somehow okay with this. They're an army. No different applicability to the game that your own dark angels or any of the other armies out there. I'm not trying any less to win with my orks than I am when I play space wolves, sisters, guard, tyranids, or salamanders.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I think the problem is that people are ignoring the potential to have 5++/5+++ pseudo-fleeting Waaagh! Boy squads. There's a lot of complaints about what was lost, but not much about what was gained.
We're not. There's just also no such thing. 5++ KFF only applies to models, and only vs shooting. The 5+ FNP from a Painboy is very nice for Boyz though, and I have already said it will be a staple in a very, very crowded slot (HQ). Warbosses will have a hard time justifying their slot, honestly, having to compete with Big Meks (5++ KFF on a bike is nice for vehicles) and Pain Boyz (for 5+ FnP).
It's only the front Boyz that actually need the 5++ though, no? The rear of the mob isn't going to be taking shots anyway, and as such won't care about not having it. Further, Gorkanauts (or is that Morkanauts? Can't ever remember which one's which) also have KFF options, with the added bonus of covering a lot of Boyz with it, being AV13 5HP to mitigate the worst of the S7 anti-light tank spam.
Above all else though, the return of the "old" Waaagh! rule, along with pseudo-fleet, seems as though it'd help assaulty Orks tremendously. It's certainly better assault rules than any other melee army bar possibly Daemons has gotten since 6th hit.
Yes, against shooting only the front boyz need the 5++. And yes, the Morkanaut (gorkanaut is just a shooty walker transport) gets a KFF also. The KFF being a ++ save instead of cover is nice, don't get me wrong. No more Ignores Cover weapons or markerlights making my KFF pointless. I just meant that it explicitly only applies to shooting instead of being a general save. I don't think I've complained too much about the KFF change, and I think for vehicles the new rule is better. It also stays in line with Dark Angles PFG in that if the character goes into a vehicle only that vehicle gets the save. Granted the PFG provides a better save at [I believe] a cheaper cost, on a sturdier carrier, but I'll take what I can get.
The new Waaagh is nice for assaulty units, yes. Never claimed otherwise. My complaint is that they had a chance and precedent to make Waaagh a more meaningful rule for all units, by building off the Waaagh Plane rule. Let shooty units get a benefit for Waaaghing, especially now that it's no longer an army wide special rule but requires a warboss. But no. In a shocking twist, that shocks no one and isn't a twist, GW took the lazy way out (nerfing Waaagh Plane in the process).
So my initial question remains. How many games does the OP have in with the new codex?
He cited untrue and extreme examples admittedly. So relax man. Take the bullets out of the gun. Learn from the nids book. Which time has shown it wasn't a bad book just terribly average.
Reading comprehension can tell us what an army will do without having to have actually put dice to the table.
And I'm not the OP. I'm the one that tried to illustrate my above point with extreme examples, not OP.
This. You don't have to "wait and see" if you can look at the rules and see things that are good or bad. Anyone with a brain can look at rules and see if they are objectively good or bad, without playing a single game.
Davor wrote: What I am saying is we give GW flak for not playtesting. So how can we COMPLAIN about lousy codicies when we do the same.
GW has to playtest because we pay them a premium to make good rules. Playtesting is a part of making good rules. No one has paid us to playtest, and not only that we *can't* playtest yet. When we can we will - until then, we'll discuss what we know. Nothing hypocritical about that in the slightest until GW start paying us.
And perfect example of why the world thinks we are weird. Complain about not trying something that is even out yet. No wonder we are labeled geeks and nerds.
The world things nerds are weird because of poor social skills and hygiene. Complaining about something that isn't released is frequent when information about the product is known beforehand. Do you recall the huge outcry about xbox one "features" before it was released? Do you remember the huge backtracking and changes MS implemented because of it, resulting in a much better product? I do.
Since we are venting. I run a green tide list. Tons of boys with supporting fire (Lobbas, Lootas), a little bit of fast attack on the flanks (Bikes and Kopters). I've already picked up flash gits, a gorkanaught and a mek gun kit to assemble and play with, but of all the changes.....of all the #%&$ing changes......my shootas went up in cost. This is devastating to me, because of the sheer number of boys I had crammed into my 1850 list. You might not think its a big deal, but it hurts me and I am being forced to switch at least 2 of my units to melee orks that weren't in the past...and you know what is still garbage? Melee. (I just want my rampaging angry orks to attack at ini 4, for the love of god have you ever charged a Space Wolves unit? Why are the most warlike, melee oriented creatures in the galaxy so $#%^ing slow) I fight mostly Space Marines in my group, and at this point, I've spent so long being someone's NPC, its getting tiresome. In the end, it's like Steamdragon said: The book isn't bad, there is good in it (I might be able to save some shootas with the point changes elsewhere), but it's uninspired. I've been getting my ass kicked and having a good time doing it because I've become the master of taking objectives with grots while my boys tarpit the enemies army, but all I wanted from the book was like 1 thing to put fear into my enemies. They aren't afraid of anything I field. Maybe I'll roll well on my flashgits AP....of course they lost their 4+ armor. Entire imperial army is wearing armor....and most every character in the game has an invuln. Not my Warboss though.
I'll be playing with the new codex as soon as I can (not this weekend likely, as I have to go to a party to bid farewell to my boss), and I'm going to play a lot of games with it and almost certainly will use it in a tournament in a few weeks. I pre-ordered the Warboss edition even. I love my Orks, I will be playing them again a lot.
That said...
I do think there were some things that I'm not keen on. First, the continued lack of power weapons outside of power claws in my Boyz mobs. Unfortunately, Boyz still seem like you better hope you do a LOT on the first round, or they'll start crumbling. Nobz are the prime CC unit, really, since they'll keep S4 in the second and later rounds of combat. The one saving grace is being able to buy 'eavy armor for multiple units. I'm going to try an army of 'eavy armored Slugga Boyz, see how that works out.
One of the biggest problems is the new morale rules (which gets even crazier in a Ghazghkull army). If you deal 25% casualties to an Ork unit, they have to make a Ld7/8 test, or likely lose more models. Since they're allowed saves, this is where 'eavy armor helps, except that it's not available for Tankbustas, Burna Boyz, or Lootas, all of which are in the 14-16 point range PER MODEL, so if you kill at most four of them in a turn, they're likely to fail Ld (I think only TBs can get an actual Nob), and then lose more of those expensive models. In an assault, you're almost always going to lose more Orks than you'll kill Space Marines, so you'll lose assault, likely fail the Ld test, and then have more Orks die as a result, meaning Ork mobs crumble more in combat (unless you roll a 1... but that's not possible with the Ghaz army, it'll be a 3).
The inability to take multiples of certain types of characters upsets me, especially after the AM book. You can take multiple psykers and/or multiple Priests without taking an HQ slot even, and then dole them out to squads to boost them. Well, Meks and Painboys are basically there to supplement squads, but we can't do that. So unless you play Unbound (and GW is really pushing that, they're trying to tell Ork players that every game they play should be Unbound), you're not going to be able to fit in enough of those guys to really help. You pretty much end up with a Warboss (because you need it), and, if the claims of 3 HQ are true, a Big Mek with KFF and a Painboy, and stick them all in one unit, either 'Ard Boyz or tooled-up Nobz, giving this one unit the survivability to get across the battlefield and into combat. But that makes a serious target for your opponents.
At that point, an Aegis line is a "must-buy" for your artillery and Lootas. Its base cost is the same as a KFF, and while things that ignore cover will go through it, it can be stretched out to protect more guys, with a better save. You'll need that so your gunline doesn't die because the KFF and Painboy are trying to protect your designated "killing mob."
Also not keen on Killer Kans costing more *and* basically having a morale check... but that morale check only makes their shooting meh. Sucks for Grotzookas, or my models armed with Skorchas, because they can't fire then, but you can still get them forward and try to get into assault, where they do their real damage. It's worth it to go with six KKs and take a Deff Dread to put near them to boost their morale, though that does eat two Heavy Support slots... but it will seriously get your opponent's attention.
Combining some of the ideas above, and I'm not sure what kind of points this would be like, but let's assume the 3 HQ/9 Troops is true, and spit out a concept list:
Warboss with goodness
Mek with KFF Painboy
10 Nobz with armor, some PKs, some BCs, in a Battlewagon (maybe even with a Killkannon for close-up anti-Marine support)
30 'Ard Boyz, 3 rokkits, Nob w/PK 30 'Ard Boyz, 3 rokkits, Nob w/PK 30 'Ard Boyz, 3 rokkits, Nob w/PK 6 Killer Kans, all rokkits
Deff Dread, rokkit and big shoota (or just go all Dread CCWs)
15 Lootas
Aegis Defense Line
That should be doable in 1850-2000, something like that. Possibly room for more. Lootas set up a gunline behind the wall to provide supporting fire. The three characters hop in Battlewagon with Nobz (if you want killkannon, you have to drop a Nob to get back to 12 transport; drop two if your Warboss has mega-armor; or just make the Nobz Mega-Nobz and take fewer... actually, maybe a better idea, as they're relatively cheap and will klaw-rip anything). The big mobs can march forward firing pot-shots and shrugging off a lot of small arms fire. The Kans should all group up and find some vehicles to shred, running toward them as fast as possible. There's multiple threats, some survivability built in, has assault and shooty.
There's bad, there's good, there's "WTF?!?" I'll just go back to my old Ork tactics of "act like a lunatic and figure that'll save you."
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Saevus wrote: for the love of god have you ever charged a Space Wolves unit
Yes. Hold on, it gets worse.
I play a Space Wolf player who takes IG allies, not just for the Command Squad with Master of Ordnance and Manticore with camo netting he parks behind an Aegis line (along with his Long Fangs packs), but also for Ministorum Priests. He runs two squads of Grey Hunters with Ministorum Priest and either a Rune Priest or a Primaris Psyker, both of them with Biomancy, hoping to get Endurance. If he gets Endurance (and he always gets it on at least one of them), and he's able to cast that and get the Priest's ability off, you're now looking at a squad with WS4, S4, T4, I4, plenty of attacks, Counter-Assault, 3+ armor (reroll fails), 4+ FNP, and Hatred (plus Relentless, because why not?).
I watch large mobs of Slugga Boyz just evaporate upon contact. And I'm the one charging! It is just so disheartening and crushing. Every time it happens, I just want to stop playing. It takes two turns for my army to be obliterated by his combination of shooting and two damn near unkillable units that shred my guys in the area my guys are supposed to be good.
i am on the side that doesn't think orks got hit to bad, it has invalidated some over the top lists like cult of speed without doing it unbound, and the mob rule doesnt seem so hot. but with the increase to our charge range how many turns will we be out of combat? dakka jets were a little silly on the waaagh, but did we really loose any shots? we waaagh every turn after 1st with warboss so 9 shots turns to 18 once per game or 9 shots turns to 12 5 out of 6 turns (i believe thats right the waaagh plane fires 1 extra shot per gun? used to be guns fire twice)
Reading comprehension can tell us what an army will do without having to have actually put dice to the table.
And I'm not the OP. I'm the one that tried to illustrate my above point with extreme examples, not OP.
This. You don't have to "wait and see" if you can look at the rules and see things that are good or bad. Anyone with a brain can look at rules and see if they are objectively good or bad, without playing a single game.
Exactly!^ I don't play Orks so have no idea what the new dex is like. However, remember when the 5th ed tyranid dex was released in 2010? One read through it brought the realization of a number of problems. On first read it was clear the trygon tunnel was garbage and would not work (and of course GW didn't fix it in 4 years and a new dex either). Playing games is certainly useful to understand some combinations or uses of units better but that does not change the fact that a person can understand how something works (or doesn't) just from reading with no playtesting necessary.
I do hope the Ork dex did not get the tyranid treatment. And for those that think if a dex has a strong build it is a good dex think again. Just because a powerful build can be made from the nid dex and dataslate (such as skyblight) does not make the dex a good dex. If winning was the only criteria for a good dex than GW just could have increased the points of all units and upgrades by 50% and take away most armour saves or whatever as long as they make the pyrovore 20 wounds, eternal warrior, 3++ save and each turn you roll a die for each pyrovore in your army and that is how many enemy units you get to remove from anywhere on the board (and reserves), no saves of any kind allowed. Nids would win continuously but would we say the dex was a good dex? Winning is not the only criteria for a good dex.
wufai wrote: I can't understand the fact either how can people complain about the codex before it is even out yet?
In my opintion complaining about Ork codex being nerfed is the worst out of all codex rants. Isn't the whole objective of playing an Ork army is about fun and not winning? heck even the orks themselves fight not for the win but for the enjoyment.
I would suggest the OP to at least get the codex first, have a read through and then make objective critisims to gain the internet sypathy?
I play Dark Angels btw
I intend on playing a few games, and trying the book out to see if my feeling has improved. My initial reaction comes from the new codex which nerfed my list, and gained very little.
Also i don't play Orks because I "don't want to win", that's just silly. I realize my book has a history of getting abused by GW, yet somehow we find a way to overcome. It just feels like this latest batch of Meh, that is suppose to be improved rules, takes more then it gives back.
Davor wrote: What I am saying is we give GW flak for not playtesting. So how can we COMPLAIN about lousy codicies when we do the same. We are claiming we are so much smarter than GW, but yet do the EXACT same thing and just mathhammer. So if we can Mathhamer and complain, GW can mathhammer and make codicies.
If we are making educated guesses, GW can make educated guesses as well and they have been doing it for 30 years now. (Fantasy included.) What I am saying is our complaining is invalidated since we are doing the same thing we say GW is doing. So how can we take our complaints seriously? If our complaints our valid, then GW design is valid as well.
In other words, we are Hypocrites. Doing what we complaint about.
Honestly, I don't think GW do any mathhammer at all. If they did, they wouldn't have some of the blatantly obvious balance flaws they have. The most obvious ones are weapon upgrades for units, so often you can see just at a glance the points values for weapon upgrades are skewed compared to their actual effectiveness. Games Workshop are so horrible at balance some of these things are just obvious.
And no, it's not being hypocritical. If we were releasing rules for premium prices and not playtesting them, then yeah, we'd be hypocritical.
No, our complaining is not invalidated. We have playtested previous editions thoroughly and can see what changes will have what effect. It may be less valid than comments made 6 months from now, but as with the Tyranid codex, I reckon there's a good chance many of the complaints we have now will be the same complaints we have in 6 months. The only difference being that Orks are in the spotlight now where as in 6 months they will be less so.
If our complaints our valid, then GW design is valid as well.
I'm sorry, but what are you smoking? I want some. This is ludicrous, comparing freely offered comments from an unpaid group of CONSUMERS to the EXPENSIVELY offered rulebooks of the company and developers who are PAID to write them?
Also consider the fact many of the conclusions drawn from these consumers are based on discussions with a wide cross section of the community, something GW fail to do.
Davor wrote: And perfect example of why the world thinks we are weird. Complain about not trying something that is even out yet. No wonder we are labeled geeks and nerds.
This might be the most insane thing I've ever read on dakka. Not only are you just flat out wrong, but what exactly does being a "geek" or a "nerd" mean to you, that you associate it with things like that? And why would you think that when you yourself subscribe to those same labels, since you used "we"? And why would you post that on here of all places, a miniatures wargaming forum? You don't strike me as a troll, but I could be wrong. If not, I'd suggest you take some time to do some deep thinking about your assumptions regarding social constructs and stereotypes, not to mention how you project your insecurities outwards.
forgotten ghosts wrote: i am on the side that doesn't think orks got hit to bad, it has invalidated some over the top lists like cult of speed without doing it unbound...
Was cult of speed really "over the top"? Armies centered around trukk boys and warbikes were arguably less effective than the same points spent on horde units and heavy vehicles. The only really exceptional unit was nob bikers, and those are almost unchanged... except now they can't take an invulnerable save in CC. Speed freeks was a good army for getting into people's faces with small units quickly, but a unit of 12 boys has trouble against most things in CC if their target survives the charge - and even more now because of the casualties they'll take from mob rule and s4 exploding trukks. It was unreliable at best in the previous edition, I don't think it was screaming out for a nerf. Here's hoping they throw us a bone and make a formation or something.
I think that op has lost sight of what the ork codex is about. Ita the tog ii of 40k. One does not simply play a tog ii because one should, one plays tog ii because he can. Ork codex = party codex; when an ork player comes to the table you should get ready to have a blast and just chill out.
You shouldn't be playing orks if you expect to cue for tournaments that's not their intent as a codex. Their intent is to break the pace from all these stone cold faced, ultra serious armies and just mellow this game the feth out.
I hope they keep this charm and trait in their new book. If they have tried to ham fist seriousness and competitiveness into the ork codex I will be one very sad panda
My knee jerk reactions to the news was very negative; however I stopped looking at the orks I own and how I used to play them with the old book and looked at what the new one provides.
FlashGitz, IMO, are better than Lootaz now. Slightly different purpose but Nobz with AP3 Assault 3 gunz are mighting appealing to me.
Painboyz as ICs are amzing. Think about a 30 boyz squad now all with FNP.
Ghazghkull as LoW is awesome! - Warlords don't need to be HQs, just any character from your primary detachment (in a battle-forged list). This frees up your HQ slots for more Painboyz, Shokk Attack Gunz, etc.
Boyz could have a maximum assault threat range of 33-35". Trukk with RPJ and Bording planks move 7". Disembark 6" (13"). Waagh Run 6" (19") Charge 14" (33"). +2" if you have the book Warlord Trait that gives +1" to run and charge ranges.
Tankbustas can shoot anything they want.
Bustas and Burnas come with DT options.
There's other things as well but the more I looked at things like this and compare it to the old codex and the negatives, I REALLY like the new book "on paper". This, of course, can all change once I play a few games.
The only true annoyance I have in the book at the moment is that Heavy Support slots are at a premium.
The Home Nuggeteer wrote:You didnt lose half your named dudes like ig so quiet thyself.
Maybe not half, but we lost two of the most popular special characters by far out of our five, and one of them became a LoW for some reason, so... I guess I expected more sympathy?
Unholyllama wrote:My knee jerk reactions to the news was very negative; however I stopped looking at the orks I own and how I used to play them with the old book and looked at what the new one provides.
FlashGitz, IMO, are better than Lootaz now. Slightly different purpose but Nobz with AP3 Assault 3 gunz are mighting appealing to me.
Painboyz as ICs are amzing. Think about a 30 boyz squad now all with FNP.
Ghazghkull as LoW is awesome! - Warlords don't need to be HQs, just any character from your primary detachment (in a battle-forged list). This frees up your HQ slots for more Painboyz, Shokk Attack Gunz, etc.
Boyz could have a maximum assault threat range of 33-35". Trukk with RPJ and Bording planks move 7". Disembark 6" (13"). Waagh Run 6" (19") Charge 14" (33"). +2" if you have the book Warlord Trait that gives +1" to run and charge ranges.
Tankbustas can shoot anything they want.
Bustas and Burnas come with DT options.
There's other things as well but the more I looked at things like this and compare it to the old codex and the negatives, I REALLY like the new book "on paper". This, of course, can all change once I play a few games.
The only true annoyance I have in the book at the moment is that Heavy Support slots are at a premium.
Flash Gitz are APd6, not 3. And they don't have heavy armour, either, so they're much less durable than their T4 W2 might imply. I admit they're much better now than they used to be - but I don't think they're better than lootas, not by a long shot. If they were elites, I could see them filling a different role, but as a competitor in Heavy Support they're outclassed.
Nothing but good things can come from painboys being an independant HQ. It's a good change, except maybe that it's using up an HQ slot, but that's not really a big problem.
Ghazghkull as a Lord of War is... weird. I get that it's not really anything but a change of where he fits in the chart, but he doesn't really fit the theme of a Lord of War, right? Lords of War are like: an ascendant star god, a city block sized siege tank, a hulking daemon engine powered by murder... or a somewhat bigger and meaner Ork Warboss. Which of these is not like the others?
Extra charge range is fantastic. No complaints there.
Tankbustas are objectively better, no doubt. And they actually have tank hunter now, about time!
More dedicated transports are good, but it sucks that burna boys went up in cost. Were they really that stellar before, even without a DT?
My problem mostly rests in the mob rule nerf, the lost flavor from special characters, and the cut and paste writing. Most people play orks want to play orks, orks don't run from a waaagh. I can make something playable out of this mess, but it would always feel like I was playing Codex Grots.
Flash Gitz are APd6, not 3. And they don't have heavy armour, either, so they're much less durable than their T4 W2 might imply. I admit they're much better now than they used to be - but I don't think they're better than lootas, not by a long shot. If they were elites, I could see them filling a different role, but as a competitor in Heavy Support they're outclassed.
I knew AP3 felt wrong when typing. Forgot they were D6. Even so though, they are a consistent 3 shots, can be BS3, and they have a 66% chance of being AP4 or better. They don't have access to 'Eavy Armor which does suck; however, they can take a DT and are Nob profile instead of Boy profile. The consistency in number of shots, potential of BS3 , and the DT are the reason why I'm rating them higher than Lootas at the moment. Now Lootas are a lot cheaper and have a strong gun strength but the consistency and potential to have AP3 or better shots is very appealing.
As for the burnas, they are "ok" in 6th; however, they had the only close combat weapons in the codex with an AP value other than the PKs. I haven't heard if burnas are still AP3 or not; however, if so, they gain a boost in not requiring someone else's trukk or wagon and the new No Escape USR on Template weapons. Bring a Prometheum Pipe Relay fortification and you now have a unit of Torrent Burnas behind a 4+ cover (that can hurt you yes but it's still 4+ cover). So, really they are still situational but very effective against Tau, Daemons, DE, and Nids at range and good against MEQ in CC (if the AP3 hasn't changed).
The Bustas updates are great for the sole reason a unit full of AP3 weapons now don't have to try and keep shooting at a lone flyer instead of the MEQ on the ground right in front of them. Tank Hunter and a DT help to reduce an Ork's reliance on PKs for anti-tank which also helps.
I can only base my opinions off of the rumors I've heard and the white dwarf pages I've seen, but I feel like orks gained more than they lost. The fact that you have the chance to run and charge is huge! For the first time in a while orks can have BS3 without relying on gretchin (dakkajet aside). Seriously guys, give the codex a chance before you condemn it. Remember, tau players were bitching that their codex sucked the first week it came out because their devilfish weren't good (something about it not being a fast skimmer or something) and their flyers sucked. Eldar players were furious that they couldn't automatically get fortune and doom anymore. So what if some of the units you relied on were nerfed; find some new ones and enjoy the fact that you have the chance to change up the way you play your greenskins.
Btw I know you guys are anxious to get your opinions about the orks out on the internet. It's been a long and slow release and we're all screaming, "just release the damned book already!" Sorry you've had to wait this long. Anyway, I hope you all don't shelve your orks because I really enjoy playing against you guys.
mrfantastical wrote: I replay that game in my mind, with the new rules, and i don't think I would have done as well. I can't make that list work now
"I made a list for the new edition a moment before the Codex came out and am surprised that I can't replicate it with the new book(that I don't own yet anyway). My army is broken, can't play, thanks Obama."
I'm sorry, I know you have your point and I get it, but this really struck me there. Just.. wait, get the new book, look at what you can do with it, play it. People cried that IG/Astra Militarum will be unplayable before the Codex hit and suddenly it's a very solid army with several playstyles available and enough tools to be relevant on the table. Last minute list building is always going to end up bad as various kinds of balance and point tweaks are going to happen to 'refresh' the army.
I wouldn't get too worked up about it. I at first was thinking the book was going to be amazing! Then I heard things that were going to be in it. Then I felt sad. But now, I've come to realize I was really only upset because nothing I was really WANTING to happen, happened. But that doesn't make this book BAD. I'm excited for it. There were some questionable choice being made, such as Kan point increase while losing their Dreadnaught weaponry and getting a slightly worse variant, or Cybork Body being a FNP save instead of Invul.
But as I began to see the changes roll out, I feel this isn't bad at all. A lot of buffs were given in exchange for some things. Though the Mob rule changed, it will benefit our smaller squads a bit more, so they don't simply RUN like they used too. Our TankBustas are WAY better than before with their point decrease and overall ability and gear buffs. Kommandoz will see more play as well with new abilities and lowered point cost, our Bikes got dirt cheap, even though they lost the auto cover, which isn't a much of a loss as I thought it might be. We got some really awesome Relics in this book, our KFF is a 5++ save instead of cover, though has to be used more wisely as it's now a per model basis, not per unit. We got some Armorbane klaws! FINALLY! We have usable Psychic powers now! StormBoyz are a little cheaper, and can be taken in larger max squads now, which is awesome (Despite Zagstrucks changes). Our WAAAAAGH! Now allows us to be the only army right now to get Move, Run, and Charge again, a boon we needed severely. Our basic CC Boyz are a little better overall, capable of getting Ard Armor. While not a HUGE boon, its still nice to get saves against bolters. DeffKopters are cheaper. Almost anything that can take Rokkits gets it as a free exchange these days for us, so thats HUGE. Even Kopters get it for free...and they got CHEAPER.
While it might seem like a cop out, the supplement sounds amazing as well from what I've been told as well, and I plan on getting it for the cool formations.
It's not all bad. You just have to admire the good as well. It's a new edition and a new book. We just have to weed out what works for us as individuals.
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Johnnytorrance wrote: I guess it was a rumor that boys were able to get cyborg body's for the 6+ FnP?
Can anyone explain why Dok Grosnik has both doks tools, gives him and his unit (5+) FnP and cyborg body for (6+) FnP?
Seemed like an oversight on GW part. It seemed like they originally planned to keep the 5++ from Cybork, but decided last minute to make it FNP, but didn't update his profile. :(
mrfantastical wrote: I replay that game in my mind, with the new rules, and i don't think I would have done as well. I can't make that list work now
"I made a list for the new edition a moment before the Codex came out and am surprised that I can't replicate it with the new book(that I don't own yet anyway). My army is broken, can't play, thanks Obama."
I'm sorry, I know you have your point and I get it, but this really struck me there. Just.. wait, get the new book, look at what you can do with it, play it. People cried that IG/Astra Militarum will be unplayable before the Codex hit and suddenly it's a very solid army with several playstyles available and enough tools to be relevant on the table. Last minute list building is always going to end up bad as various kinds of balance and point tweaks are going to happen to 'refresh' the army.
I play a Space Wolf player who takes IG allies, not just for the Command Squad with Master of Ordnance and Manticore with camo netting he parks behind an Aegis line (along with his Long Fangs packs), but also for Ministorum Priests. He runs two squads of Grey Hunters with Ministorum Priest and either a Rune Priest or a Primaris Psyker, both of them with Biomancy, hoping to get Endurance. If he gets Endurance (and he always gets it on at least one of them), and he's able to cast that and get the Priest's ability off, you're now looking at a squad with WS4, S4, T4, I4, plenty of attacks, Counter-Assault, 3+ armor (reroll fails), 4+ FNP, and Hatred (plus Relentless, because why not?).
I watch large mobs of Slugga Boyz just evaporate upon contact. And I'm the one charging! It is just so disheartening and crushing. Every time it happens, I just want to stop playing. It takes two turns for my army to be obliterated by his combination of shooting and two damn near unkillable units that shred my guys in the area my guys are supposed to be good.
That just reeks of cheese. I'd probably refuse to play that guy again if someone in my group pulled something like that in a casual game. I'm fortunate most of my store is pretty good about that sort of stuff. The only things I've got to really deal with are the Imperial Knights. Unfortunatly, the guys here REALLY love those models and want to field them whenever they can (Just wish they would ask first...)
I know it's not exactly to do with the codex but the Meganobz where a huge disappointment for me.
About three weeks ago a friend talked me into splitting a box of nobz with a couple of friends to paint and I loved it. I was eagerly awaiting the new meganobz and it was the first time in months I had actually been excited about a GW release. But then they came out as 3 to a box which all look very similar with little customization other than the weapons on each hand, and a mek model forced in taking up what seems to be a lot of room on a sprue.
I have 4 trukks of boyz
2 bws of shoota boyz
2 dakkajets
6 stormboyz
kff mek
some burnas
mega warboss
junka
kustom stompa (build around FW rules)
Can I make a funtional army out of these?
When I made this in 5th ed the strategy was to rush in with trukks and pile mutible ork units into one enemy unit while surviving trukks split up enemy forces.
Shoota boyz basically go drive by shooting and capture objectives other unit provide support when needed.
Looking at the new rules I say I can't. None of my units hit very hard and pretty much everything rose in price while losing effectiviness.
Zagman wrote: You couldn't have picked one of the other bitch threads? Was a new thread necessary.
You don't even have the Codex yet. Chill out, there will be some good builds that come out of the Codex, that is apparent already.
If you were afraid of getting Boyz in CC, maybe Orks is the wrong army.
Please stop your bitching, don't waste space with this thread, wait for the codex, and play it and adapt with the times. It's not on par with Eldar, but it certainly going to be around middle of the pack.
Please stop wasting time and space when there are many Ork bitch threads all over the place already.
Who gave you the right to insult other forum members ?
Played a game with the new dex last night. I though the new rules in the dex were fine. The new WAAAGH! Got some orks into combat with a squad of terminator who were on the ropes, too bad they had already wiped out some MANZ. And on the other side of the table the WAAGH! Nearly caught another group of marines had it not been for a wall of death over watch from flamers. Orks were on the losing side but seemed to have staying power. I actually kind of liked the Mob Rule! mechanic. It seemed to keep those smaller groups in the fight and it actually never claimed a victim due to some good rolling.
Of course need to play more but I liked the new dex.
I'm not a huge fan, if I'm honest.
A lot of my favourite things have been hit pretty hard with the nerf bat, and the Orks had taken a bit of a pasting from it already when we transitioned from 5th-6th.
Deffrollas, Boarding planks (previously the best way to kill a dreadnaught) ramshackle, all took serious hits, Shootaboys went up in points, some of the unit upgrade characters became HQ characters, taking up slots, and so on.
the only real good things for me, are the dedicated transport allocation for some units (Flash gitz, burna boys, for example)
Removing the ability of certain characters to move units around in the FOC is another major blow.
There goes at least three of my favourite army builds.
Not impressed at all.
Chute82 wrote: It's a typical GW codex. The models no body bought or used went down in pts and the units people typically used went up in pts.
Well bro you've just gotta throw out all your models and buy all the new ones, otherwise you're just a crybaby.
PS you missed something, which is all the models nobody bought or used when down in points, up in $$$, all the units people typically used went up in points or nerfed beyond salvage
Cash grab. Nice try Games Workshop but I'm not buying. You just lost $100s in sales. Try harder.
They are lucky I bought the codex but for another $50 I can get the Ghazghkull supplement. Wow what a deal
Bro you've got to spend $58 on the codex and $50 on the supplement and then spend hundreds of dollars on models and spend months playtesting them otherwise you don't know
Chute82 wrote: It's a typical GW codex. The models no body bought or used went down in pts and the units people typically used went up in pts.
Well bro you've just gotta throw out all your models and buy all the new ones, otherwise you're just a crybaby.
PS you missed something, which is all the models nobody bought or used when down in points, up in $$$, all the units people typically used went up in points or nerfed beyond salvage
Cash grab. Nice try Games Workshop but I'm not buying. You just lost $100s in sales. Try harder.
For someone who dosent like the new codex you spend a lot of time around these ork codex threads.
Zagman wrote: You couldn't have picked one of the other bitch threads? Was a new thread necessary.
You don't even have the Codex yet. Chill out, there will be some good builds that come out of the Codex, that is apparent already.
If you were afraid of getting Boyz in CC, maybe Orks is the wrong army.
Please stop your bitching, don't waste space with this thread, wait for the codex, and play it and adapt with the times. It's not on par with Eldar, but it certainly going to be around middle of the pack.
Please stop wasting time and space when there are many Ork bitch threads all over the place already.
Thanks Mod!
edit: oh wait, that guy isn't a Mod!
BTW I just got me some Orks and I'm really looking forward to building a new army, with a new codex. Everyone just calm down. Unless you know, you're campaigning for a job at Dakka like the guy above...
Loborocket wrote: Played a game with the new dex last night. I though the new rules in the dex were fine. The new WAAAGH! Got some orks into combat with a squad of terminator who were on the ropes, too bad they had already wiped out some MANZ. And on the other side of the table the WAAGH! Nearly caught another group of marines had it not been for a wall of death over watch from flamers. Orks were on the losing side but seemed to have staying power. I actually kind of liked the Mob Rule! mechanic. It seemed to keep those smaller groups in the fight and it actually never claimed a victim due to some good rolling.
Of course need to play more but I liked the new dex.
Why would you charge a unit with flamers? You shoot them from across the table with lootas or close with shoota boyz. Or you charge them with KFF and FNP saves.
The Ghaz codex lets you field an Apoc Green Tide unit in regular 40k, that's all I need. 100 boyz, warboss with a lucky stikk and another IC with a Big Bosspole. Fearless, WS +1, rerolling boss dice. Put some KFF on the front and a painboy in the back... it's gonna be beautiful...
Zagman wrote: You couldn't have picked one of the other bitch threads? Was a new thread necessary.
You don't even have the Codex yet. Chill out, there will be some good builds that come out of the Codex, that is apparent already.
If you were afraid of getting Boyz in CC, maybe Orks is the wrong army.
Please stop your bitching, don't waste space with this thread, wait for the codex, and play it and adapt with the times. It's not on par with Eldar, but it certainly going to be around middle of the pack.
Please stop wasting time and space when there are many Ork bitch threads all over the place already.
Who gave you the right to insult other forum members ?
complaining about people conplaining is not insulting them. He is just angry that as usual the 40k community is complaining.
I have an idea, let's derail this already hilarious thread with actual discussion. We'll get a bitch thread locked by going off topic with something relevant to the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
darkcloak wrote: I have an idea, let's derail this already hilarious thread with actual discussion. We'll get a bitch thread locked by going off topic with something relevant to the game.
Like what's the best conversion for the old Trukks? Make em Buggies?
Zagman wrote: You couldn't have picked one of the other bitch threads? Was a new thread necessary.
You don't even have the Codex yet. Chill out, there will be some good builds that come out of the Codex, that is apparent already. If you were afraid of getting Boyz in CC, maybe Orks is the wrong army.
Please stop your bitching, don't waste space with this thread, wait for the codex, and play it and adapt with the times. It's not on par with Eldar, but it certainly going to be around middle of the pack.
Please stop wasting time and space when there are many Ork bitch threads all over the place already.
Who gave you the right to insult other forum members ?
complaining about people conplaining is not insulting them. He is just angry that as usual the 40k community is complaining.
No, I think it was quite clear he was trying to be insulting by the quote "Please stop your bitching, don't waste space with this thread" and "Please stop wasting time and space when there are many Ork bitch threads all over the place already" and personally I don't really care if he is angry or not, it gives him no excuse to attack another's opinion. at all. Just another GW White Knight wanting everyone to be a yes man.
Anyho back to the topic.
I just got my codex today, and yes I had a game against the bugs, in which I won by 1 VP, it was a good game as it was down to the wire and there will be a BatRep of it uploaded soon by yours truly
Here are my first impressions of the Codex:
What I liked:
Stompas now in the codex. This beast was a great unit, very expensive but a fun great unit and I will be very bold so say that it's not OP for a super-heavy walker
New Upgrades (Gifts of Gork and Mork): Really liked this, especially Da Shiny Shoota, and Da Finkin Kap, only wished my Warboss stayed alive long enough to use the Killchoppa..
What I don't like:
Mob Rule: while I did not have many units of boys as my points sank into the Stompa I did get into combat with enemy units, and it really takes its toll, I mean it really hurt to be in assault with Hormagaunts, (yes you did hear that right), and honestly once I get more games under my belt I really do think this rule will impact upon the Orks in a big negative way imo..
Lack of Inv Saves: This is killer, as I found out with my Warboss, that because we don't have Inv saves even the hardest on multi-wound modes will be barraged and slapped around like abuse cute and fluffy animals, personally this may frustrate me in the future, and tbh I can see that happening..
No FoC Swapping: This already frustrated me in the first place tbh, and I feel restricted because of this, and to me it makes Orks lacks flavour of unit selection imo..
Orks are still I: 2: So they strike at the same time as a Necron and a Fire Warrior? no I really don't bite that..
Loss of WAAAGGH!!! Plane and Fighta Ace: Yeah I used the Dakkajet and personally, losing WAAAGH!!! plane was one thing but I really don't like the Fightaboss rule as I now have to hit majority of ground units as BS2, which I dislike.
Personally whilst I liked the option for Wazdakka and Old Zogwart, I never really picked them anyway so they make no difference to me (but I can see why people would be ticked off).
Conclusion: The Ork codex changed, it got a few new shiny stuff here and there, and I really need to get a few more games under my belt before I can come into a final judgement about the book, but I honestly feel as if the codex is a bit... bland if I do say so myself, there's a lot of sauce, but no beef to go with it so to say, I feel as if they went a bit safe with the Ork codex, and not added many things that would sort of hit the nail in the coffin so to say again..
Like I say I personally feel that I need more games under my belt to get a full, fair and final judgement on the book, but that is where I stand with it at the moment imo..
I've been giving the Ork book and Ghazghkull book a good readthrough, and I really like the new format with it being the same as how White Dwarf was done for Flash Gitz, etc.
I also have to say that the Ghazghkull book definitely brings some fun, fluffy things in there with very few limitations. The biggest one is things like the Mega Nobz formation(Ghazghkull's Bully Boyz) requiring minimum sized 5 man units of Mega Nobz rather than the minimum of 3.
The Zagstruk formation would be hilarious to run with full 30 man Storm Boyz mobs and the special rule of fielding all three Storm Boyz Mobs.
prowla wrote: Was just looking at the new MANz.. 49 euros for 3 infantry sprues, is that the new record at 16,33€ per sprue?
This says it all really. About the same price as kromlech versions - but with a ton more parts. looking at the sprues, you get a complete KFF so you can, for instance, make a regular KFF mek, or put on one a bike etc, for pennies. And at our local store, which discounts, they'll be around 20 per cent cheaper than kromlech.
Not everything GW do is laudable, I personally hate the cut n paste mentality of some recent plastic designs, like the tyranid Crone. But the Manz look easily competitive with most of the rival stuff out there. And if you don't love that little oiler grot than you, sir, have a heart of stone.
Have had a good look through now, shame to see we have to refer to white dwarf for rules on looted wagons. But hey ho, not a huge issue.
Having compared my 1850 list to my 6th 1850 list there is not a huge difference. Jets cost a little more, added in some flash Gitz (simply because they look awesome).
As for playing them..... Remains to be seen in reality, the charge bonuses will be powerful, but having to take a painboy as a HQ choice and with cybork bodies being altered with how they work it may affect things in a negative way.
Whatever happens, orks will still be great fun to play, we now have loads of really useable units, the new walker, the big gunz etc etc.... So enjoy painting the new models and then sending some dakka towards some 'umies!!!!!
Yeah I used the Dakkajet and personally, losing WAAAGH!!! plane was one thing but I really don't like the Fightaboss rule as I now have to hit majority of ground units as BS2, which I dislike.
You must have missed that the Dakkajet now gets Strafing Run!
Kanluwen wrote: I also have to say that the Ghazghkull book definitely brings some fun, fluffy things in there with very few limitations.
What that atrocity of a supplement brings is that every Ork unit under 10 models strong fails Mob Size on a 2+
Yeah I used the Dakkajet and personally, losing WAAAGH!!! plane was one thing but I really don't like the Fightaboss rule as I now have to hit majority of ground units as BS2, which I dislike.
You must have missed that the Dakkajet now gets Strafing Run!
streamdragon wrote: Now Orks. They could have done something with Orks. Given them something. You'd think with a 3 edition old codex, they would have seized the opportunity to do something exciting. Maybe throw Klan rules back in ala the Chapter Tactics of Space Marines; nope, nothing. Maybe put Minderz back in for Weirdboyz and make them a proper unit choice; nope, Weirdboyz still have 0 options beyond upping their ML. We got the Tyranid treatment: seemingly arbitrary changes in points (and sometimes FOC slots), nerfs in places we were strong (but hey, when the strong get nerfed internal balance is achieved!), and giving us back a few things that were taken away (sup Waaagh). Then they call it a day.
They could have made the Orks codex great. They could have done something.
But they didn't.
This. Man, why is this so hard for some people to understand.
Why do I feel that my Orks are worse off now than before...
Cybork going from 5+ invuln to 6+ fnp is pretty much just removing it from the codex as paying 5 pts for a 6+ save is a waste of points.The bottom line here is that Cybork was removed and not replaced at all.
RPJ is pretty much gone too...I guess the Red ones don't go faster after all.
Mob rule....so your blobs can continue to kill themselves even while not being shot at...pretty much says don't bother with large blobs anymore unless you can make them fearless.
Apparently Killa Kans were dominating the tournament circuit and just had to be nerfed into uselessness.
I don't think ill be purchasing anymore Ork models anytime soon...
Minijack wrote: Why do I feel that my Orks are worse off now than before...
Cybork going from 5+ invuln to 6+ fnp is pretty much just removing it from the codex as paying 5 pts for a 6+ save is a waste of points.The bottom line here is that Cybork was removed and not replaced at all.
RPJ is pretty much gone too...I guess the Red ones don't go faster after all.
Mob rule....so your blobs can continue to kill themselves even while not being shot at...pretty much says don't bother with large blobs anymore unless you can make them fearless.
Apparently Killa Kans were dominating the tournament circuit and just had to be nerfed into uselessness.
I don't think ill be purchasing anymore Ork models anytime soon...
One of my armies is CSM. Because of the poopiness of the codex as well as the heldrake nerf (in the midst of no fixes to all the other crap), I too have promised not to buy any more GW products for at least the rest of this year. I guess I go a little farther than just not buying from my specific army, but the way I look at it if you don't play SM, or one of the more popular SM factions, Eldar, or AM, you can expect to have a non-competitive army. Try out Drop Zone Command. Much more balanced and fun!
I have the codex and I am pissed. No new big thing that has d weapon or some new thing thats overpowered in the right use. Nothing at all. Same old models, worse rules. Hell the points should of been reduced by half if they expect numbers to win the day with the gak thats out there right now.
WTF is up with the mob rule. How was it so broken that it had to be fixed in such a harsh way. With all the crazy gak that every new imperium codex gets, wave after wave, of new technology and techniques that make even more powerful units, orks get nothing. Wtf is Ghaz being LOW. From purely game play perspective wtf. feth the fluffy reason. The only good named guy in the book and now you have to take him when your facing super heavy walker spam lists. How the hell do they think any of this makes sense? Stuff that worked is nerfed to hell, stuff that was useless was buffed but not enough to warrant points, again. Every thing still dies if your opponent sneezes on the table. Hard boy armor costing almost as much as another ork and its still just 4+. Nerf to cybork body, Nerf to red paint job, nerf to fnp. Nerf to kff, I guess games workshop really has become a garbage miniatures company that used to make good rules. For as long as its been a bad codex, at least give us ork players something to want to play again. Hell if you made some big powerful expensive unit we would drop the money for it, but not you just regurgitate models and nerfed rules.
I predict the prices of orks on ebay are going to drop because of supply soon. Sometimes I wonder if GW actually created the original 40k or if they bought ti from some smart person.
Minijack wrote: Why do I feel that my Orks are worse off now than before...
Cybork going from 5+ invuln to 6+ fnp is pretty much just removing it from the codex as paying 5 pts for a 6+ save is a waste of points.The bottom line here is that Cybork was removed and not replaced at all.
RPJ is pretty much gone too...I guess the Red ones don't go faster after all.
Mob rule....so your blobs can continue to kill themselves even while not being shot at...pretty much says don't bother with large blobs anymore unless you can make them fearless.
Apparently Killa Kans were dominating the tournament circuit and just had to be nerfed into uselessness.
I don't think ill be purchasing anymore Ork models anytime soon...
Honestly if you don't have the codex, I would get it tbh, a lot changed but I think its not all doom and gloom imo, it does have potential, just need to get few games under their belt to get there
Gold tooth Jerry wrote: I have the codex and I am pissed. No new big thing that has d weapon or some new thing thats overpowered in the right use. Nothing at all. Same old models, worse rules. Hell the points should of been reduced by half if they expect numbers to win the day with the gak thats out there right now.
WTF is up with the mob rule. How was it so broken that it had to be fixed in such a harsh way. With all the crazy gak that every new imperium codex gets, wave after wave, of new technology and techniques that make even more powerful units, orks get nothing. Wtf is Ghaz being LOW. From purely game play perspective wtf. feth the fluffy reason. The only good named guy in the book and now you have to take him when your facing super heavy walker spam lists. How the hell do they think any of this makes sense? Stuff that worked is nerfed to hell, stuff that was useless was buffed but not enough to warrant points, again. Every thing still dies if your opponent sneezes on the table. Hard boy armor costing almost as much as another ork and its still just 4+. Nerf to cybork body, Nerf to red paint job, nerf to fnp. Nerf to kff, I guess games workshop really has become a garbage miniatures company that used to make good rules. For as long as its been a bad codex, at least give us ork players something to want to play again. Hell if you made some big powerful expensive unit we would drop the money for it, but not you just regurgitate models and nerfed rules.
I predict the prices of orks on ebay are going to drop because of supply soon. Sometimes I wonder if GW actually created the original 40k or if they bought ti from some smart person.
I'm sorry, my friend. Although I do not play Orks, I feel your pain.
Gold tooth Jerry wrote: I have the codex and I am pissed. No new big thing that has d weapon or some new thing thats overpowered in the right use. Nothing at all. Same old models, worse rules. Hell the points should of been reduced by half if they expect numbers to win the day with the gak thats out there right now.
WTF is up with the mob rule. How was it so broken that it had to be fixed in such a harsh way. With all the crazy gak that every new imperium codex gets, wave after wave, of new technology and techniques that make even more powerful units, orks get nothing. Wtf is Ghaz being LOW. From purely game play perspective wtf. feth the fluffy reason. The only good named guy in the book and now you have to take him when your facing super heavy walker spam lists. How the hell do they think any of this makes sense? Stuff that worked is nerfed to hell, stuff that was useless was buffed but not enough to warrant points, again. Every thing still dies if your opponent sneezes on the table. Hard boy armor costing almost as much as another ork and its still just 4+. Nerf to cybork body, Nerf to red paint job, nerf to fnp. Nerf to kff, I guess games workshop really has become a garbage miniatures company that used to make good rules. For as long as its been a bad codex, at least give us ork players something to want to play again. Hell if you made some big powerful expensive unit we would drop the money for it, but not you just regurgitate models and nerfed rules.
I predict the prices of orks on ebay are going to drop because of supply soon. Sometimes I wonder if GW actually created the original 40k or if they bought ti from some smart person.
I'm sorry, my friend. Although I do not play Orks, I feel your pain.
Why the feth did they have to do this to orks? The last old underpowered codex out there and they nerfed it. I dont know who wrote this gak, but he needs to be fired fast. For the good of the company. Does he even play the game? Was this even play tested? I have played orks extensively with several other ork players and the margin of error for the old codex was razor thin to get victorys. Now I don't even want to haul them up to the game store anymore....
I think the community needs to start a petition for a rewrite immediately. Its the only way to fix this gak.
Gold tooth Jerry wrote: I have the codex and I am pissed. No new big thing that has d weapon or some new thing thats overpowered in the right use. Nothing at all. Same old models, worse rules. Hell the points should of been reduced by half if they expect numbers to win the day with the gak thats out there right now.
WTF is up with the mob rule. How was it so broken that it had to be fixed in such a harsh way. With all the crazy gak that every new imperium codex gets, wave after wave, of new technology and techniques that make even more powerful units, orks get nothing. Wtf is Ghaz being LOW. From purely game play perspective wtf. feth the fluffy reason. The only good named guy in the book and now you have to take him when your facing super heavy walker spam lists. How the hell do they think any of this makes sense? Stuff that worked is nerfed to hell, stuff that was useless was buffed but not enough to warrant points, again. Every thing still dies if your opponent sneezes on the table. Hard boy armor costing almost as much as another ork and its still just 4+. Nerf to cybork body, Nerf to red paint job, nerf to fnp. Nerf to kff, I guess games workshop really has become a garbage miniatures company that used to make good rules. For as long as its been a bad codex, at least give us ork players something to want to play again. Hell if you made some big powerful expensive unit we would drop the money for it, but not you just regurgitate models and nerfed rules.
I predict the prices of orks on ebay are going to drop because of supply soon. Sometimes I wonder if GW actually created the original 40k or if they bought ti from some smart person.
I'm sorry, my friend. Although I do not play Orks, I feel your pain.
Why the feth did they have to do this to orks? The last old underpowered codex out there and they nerfed it. I dont know who wrote this gak, but he needs to be fired fast. For the good of the company. Does he even play the game? Was this even play tested? I have played orks extensively with several other ork players and the margin of error for the old codex was razor thin to get victorys. Now I don't even want to haul them up to the game store anymore....
I think the community needs to start a petition for a rewrite immediately. Its the only way to fix this gak.
I know, man. Orks got it pretty bad. Worse than Nids, worse than CSM, perhaps even worse than sisters. It's sad. The people who run this game would really benefit by hiring some form of mathematician or statistician whose only goal is to find some way of quantifying equality between the books (while maintaining distinctness). Seems like things are just done to make a quick buck. The big problem is, it doesn't seem like anyone is going to be buying anything because the book is just terrible.
It's so close to being decent but the Mob Rule kills it.
There's no author credit in it but it kind of feels like the book was written by someone competent like Cruddace or Vetock and then Phil Kelly took a look at it and snuck in the Mob Rule table on the last day before it went to print. No way would that stupid table have made it through any sort of playtesting, even their in-house "beer and pretzels, take 1 of each unit and don't use tactics" playtesting.
First off I would say they are certainly not as bad as CSM they are in between the bugs and the CSM, as feel reading up on it the can defiantly hold their own, however thy do suffer the blandness of those codex's, nothing that give that special sauce to the beef so to say..
Secondly I'm glad the Stompa is not OP as some quick fix, as al it would mean is that my Stompa would get refused games and tbh, its great way for avoiding mob rule table..
As a CSM player I would say that the CSM Codex is far worse off than Orks imo..
There's no author credit in it but it kind of feels like the book was written by someone competent like Cruddace or Vetock and then Phil Kelly took a look at it and snuck in the Mob Rule table on the last day before it went to print. No way would that stupid table have made it through any sort of playtesting, even their in-house "beer and pretzels, take 1 of each unit and don't use tactics" playtesting.
I honestly feel as if the no author credit is just to hide the authors name so they don't get anymore grief from the community imo..
happygolucky wrote: First off I would say they are certainly not as bad as CSM they are in between the bugs and the CSM, as feel reading up on it the can defiantly hold their own, however thy do suffer the blandness of those codex's, nothing that give that special sauce to the beef so to say..
Secondly I'm glad the Stompa is not OP as some quick fix, as al it would mean is that my Stompa would get refused games and tbh, its great way for avoiding mob rule table..
As a CSM player I would say that the CSM Codex is far worse off than Orks imo..
There's no author credit in it but it kind of feels like the book was written by someone competent like Cruddace or Vetock and then Phil Kelly took a look at it and snuck in the Mob Rule table on the last day before it went to print. No way would that stupid table have made it through any sort of playtesting, even their in-house "beer and pretzels, take 1 of each unit and don't use tactics" playtesting.
I honestly feel as if the no author credit is just to hide the authors name so they don't get anymore grief from the community imo..
There's no author credit in it but it kind of feels like the book was written by someone competent like Cruddace or Vetock and then Phil Kelly took a look at it and snuck in the Mob Rule table on the last day before it went to print. No way would that stupid table have made it through any sort of playtesting, even their in-house "beer and pretzels, take 1 of each unit and don't use tactics" playtesting.
They don't give author credit so that Phil Kelly can continue to have a job. feth Phil Kelly.
There's no author credit in it but it kind of feels like the book was written by someone competent like Cruddace or Vetock and then Phil Kelly took a look at it and snuck in the Mob Rule table on the last day before it went to print. No way would that stupid table have made it through any sort of playtesting, even their in-house "beer and pretzels, take 1 of each unit and don't use tactics" playtesting.
Wat?
Cruddace, the master of horrific internal balance.
And Vetock, Master of either badly below par (DA), or Horrifically OP (Tau).
...And with that the sad thing is there's really not good people writing at all, none are consistent.
Cruddace, the master of horrific internal balance.
And Vetock, Master of either badly below par (DA), or Horrifically OP (Tau).
...And with that the sad thing is there's really not good people writing at all, none are consistent.
I said competent, not good.
Cruddace's SM are the best codex GW has ever done, so he has that going for him.
I feel Vetock's have good internal balance and mostly fall down on crappy core rules, not issues with the codexes. The two you mentioned would be on a pretty equal footing in 4th or 5th.
happygolucky wrote: First off I would say they are certainly not as bad as CSM they are in between the bugs and the CSM, as feel reading up on it the can defiantly hold their own, however thy do suffer the blandness of those codex's, nothing that give that special sauce to the beef so to say..
Secondly I'm glad the Stompa is not OP as some quick fix, as al it would mean is that my Stompa would get refused games and tbh, its great way for avoiding mob rule table..
As a CSM player I would say that the CSM Codex is far worse off than Orks imo..
There's no author credit in it but it kind of feels like the book was written by someone competent like Cruddace or Vetock and then Phil Kelly took a look at it and snuck in the Mob Rule table on the last day before it went to print. No way would that stupid table have made it through any sort of playtesting, even their in-house "beer and pretzels, take 1 of each unit and don't use tactics" playtesting.
I honestly feel as if the no author credit is just to hide the authors name so they don't get anymore grief from the community imo..
There's no author credit in it but it kind of feels like the book was written by someone competent like Cruddace or Vetock and then Phil Kelly took a look at it and snuck in the Mob Rule table on the last day before it went to print. No way would that stupid table have made it through any sort of playtesting, even their in-house "beer and pretzels, take 1 of each unit and don't use tactics" playtesting.
They don't give author credit so that Phil Kelly can continue to have a job. Feth Phil Kelly.
It's weird, not to invoke the boogey man but a codex like this (copy pasted then wiped on) makes me think of Matt Ward's Orc dexes. (Which single handedly rendered them unpayable in fantasy) Yet all the interviews on the dex are with Kelly. If he did write it, he's lost whatever speck of talent he once had. (From someone who plays both, this codex is far, far lazier and less useful than CSM.)
I bought the codex today and have gone through it.
There ARE some good things in it, I like Zags new hammer of wrath attack, Tankbusta fix, the new Grotprod rules are quite funny. (it would be funny to see a squad of 10 grots and runtherd instagib a space marine FC) and some of the wargear choices. By far the better thing is the Ork psychic powers and weirdboy rules which could make things interesting. But it is a shame we are limited to Daemology (I.E Guaranteed Perils) outside of Ork specific powers. And it's nice we have some anti air now, and a bit more choice for anti armour...
As for bad, well, where on earth do I begin. This is not a nerf. This is... I don't Know what on earth it is... It's an atrocity.
Mob Rule is just an unnecessary castration to anyone who loves running a massive foot slogging list. With the new Mob Rule you could easily have a mob of 30 become pinned after 8 boyz are killed, or even running off the board in turn one if your opponent fires a few frag missiles into it. Alternativley lose D6 models on top of that? Which is better?
It was not OP to begin with, in the vast majority of cases you NEED that fearless rule to stand a HOPE of getting close to camping armies like guard and hide behind aegis lists.
Ramshakkle nerf. Why? Why was this necessary? especially if you are going to get rid of looted wagons, give da boyz a bone for goodness sake. Boyz drop like flies under bolter fire, we don't need an exploding trukk killing half it's passengers instead of a third.
Defrolla, Nerf is bearable as it now costs half as much.
Dakka jet nerf is also pretty rubbish. More expensive, to upgrade and in return you lose the BS3 AND the double shots in a WAAGH. This combined with the fact that 7th Ed jink was nerfed anyway makes this AV10 flyer a damp squib now.
But ladies and Gentlemen, my biggest beef is the Cybork change. Why not just get rid of it altogether. 5pts for a 6+ fnp? WOW!, really generous that's going to help a LOT when my Warboss is challenged by Bjorn or a terminator sgt with thunder hammer.
Can someone please explain why my Warboss (and Warlord) is not allowed any saves of any kind against power weapons thunder hammers or over low AP weapons, Simply put, this pretty much means getting charged by GK's or any other power weapon wielding squad is a deathknell for anything not in mega armour. That squad of 5 nobz can be obliterated by a squad of longfangs firing krak with the prescience rule, or an executioner volley and there is literally nothing you could do about it.
It's almost like they have nerfed everything fun, or good about the old dex to force you to run lists where the only hope of not getting tabled is to camp inside cover, or spam BW's and Gorkanaughts.
I say this as a footslogger and mobber. I also have 4 looted wagons, 2 truks and 3 dakka jets but only one BW. So understand why I am so upset at this new list.
Sorry if it sounds like I'm suffering from NERDRAGE. But I really had good hopes for this dex, and instead nearly all my favourite units have been utterly shafted.
Cruddace, the master of horrific internal balance.
And Vetock, Master of either badly below par (DA), or Horrifically OP (Tau).
...And with that the sad thing is there's really not good people writing at all, none are consistent.
I said competent, not good.
Cruddace's SM are the best codex GW has ever done, so he has that going for him.
I feel Vetock's have good internal balance and mostly fall down on crappy core rules, not issues with the codexes. The two you mentioned would be on a pretty equal footing in 4th or 5th.
So would CSM, but I'm not exactly going to say somethings good if it 'Could' be good several editions ago.
BTW, I just had a chance to go over the whole codex. The fluff matches the crunch. It has a underachieving high school essay writer's sense of flow and verbiage; adding superfluous and stilted alterations to Kelly's 5th edition writing. There are quite a few redundant paragraph segments. (The opening blurb says the same thing twice in minorly different ways.) The author struggles with synonyms, often using the same noun or verb 2-3 times in a sentence. Sense of humor is all but absent.
My moneys either on 'Ward' or 'Kelly had a small stroke'.
Someone else mentioned this a while ago (just after the Nid codex iirc), but they had a very good point. Many people are complaining that a certain codex is "bad" and usually this is in comparison to Eldar or Tau. I think (and the new Ork codex has helped show this) that Eldar and Tau are the exception to the rule and are really good books, whereas codices like Orks, Nids, CSM and DA are the norm. When comparing the Ork codex to such armies, it really is that bad at all.
darkcloak wrote: I am okay with the price of Orks on ebay dropping. Would not hear me complain at all.
I am looking forward to this too.
So by all means everyone who is unhappy please continue to complain so more players follow suit and dump their orks. I can always use some new toys.
If people are looking to unload, be sure and send me a PM. I would not want you to suffer too long.
Funny I don't see a sudden in flux of "(H) Orks" post on the Dakka swap shop? If people are really that upset lets see some real action. Unload this POS army before the market gets flooded. I imagine you are already at about .50 on the $ for value of a used Ork army. Don't wait to lose more value. Act now and get rid of these guys.
Its sad to say, but in the end it really comes down to the buffs you give your army. They determine its worth. Guard, marines, tau, eldar, daemons; they can all buff the crap out of their armies. Chaos can run some truly nasty stuff too with pyschic powers. Orks have really lousy powers. So you end up with average to below average quality units, but no way to make thrm great. Thats why CSM at this point is a better book
Wow, so I got a look at the codex earlier. Its all pictures of the same 3 studio colour schemes, the fluff seemed pretty light, there was a little bit explaining the clans at least and then the unit entries are awful. Barely any fluff, more pics instead of real art and I hit the stupidly long appendix before I realized it.
Speaking only about the quality of the book, not the rules inside it, all I can say is it seemed rushed and I hope its not the norm for 7th ed.
I bought the codex today and I think it's awesome. Yes, losing Cybork Body Invulns was sad, yes I wish Shootas were still 6 Ppm, and there's a couple other little changes that are great.
Orks are finally an effective assault troops. Free Stikkbombs, free mini-fleet, and we can Run and Assault again. Bikers are cheap enough to be useful. Deffkoptas are 50% cheaper. Stormboyz are cheap enough to be useful. Lootas are cheaper. Artillery is flipping awesome. Our relics are great.
Mob rule is better now then when the last codex was written, stop being so damn spoiled by edition changes that made things much better than they were supposed to be. Also....Orks are damn solid, you don't like em cool, your business, post your army on Ebay and send me the link.
Orktavius wrote: Mob rule is better now then when the last codex was written, stop being so damn spoiled by edition changes that made things much better than they were supposed to be. Also....Orks are damn solid, you don't like em cool, your business, post your army on Ebay and send me the link.
I didn't play during 4th or 5th. How did the edition changes affect Mob rule? Can you detail how Mob Rule functions now as compared to when it first came out?
I have the codex and reading through it/comparing, before we had what ~6 units that were utter useless garbage? Lets see...
Burnas (burnawagons are their only shine, and with the range nerf it kinda died)
Kommandoz
Tankbustas
Flash Gitz
Deff Dredds
Blitza Bomba
Units that were bad but viable enough to take for the hell of it include:
Burna Bomba
Killa Kanz
Foot Nobz
Looted Wagons
Now, in the new codex....imo the only totally useless unit is Burnas because they went up a point and gained nothing. Literally the only way i will field them is if i run any gunwagons or nauts and i want some free Meks inside, since the 2-3 burnas can still do SOME damage if/when the vehicle dies finally (and overwatch in gunwagons).
Theres plenty of not-so-super units, but they all have their strengths whereas before they had nothing going for them. Buggies have outflank, cheaper, and units of 5 now. Koptas got WAY cheaper (-15pts for the TL rokkit variant we always use), blitza bomba is actually pretty nasty looking, warbikers are properly costed for once, we can give a 15man warbiker unit or 30man boyz blob WS5 through Da Lucky Stikk, list goes on and on.
We lost our OMGWTFPWNBBQ bikernobz since they lost their invul and cost the same and now require 2 HQs for the same missile as before instead of 1, since painboyz are an HQ. But that was the only REAL nerf we got imo, the rest were small things. Mob rule will only kick your ass if your dice seriously, seriously hate you.
Orktavius wrote: Mob rule is better now then when the last codex was written,
How exactly is Mob Rule better now?
This is the third variation, and by far the worst.
we went from units falling back being absorbed into other units (mobbing up), to fearless while we had numbers to taking a few shots then either killing more boys or standing around looking stupid.
I think I'll play one of my other armies for a while, and let the Boys wait for the next codex.
They are lucky I bought the codex but for another $50 I can get the Ghazghkull supplement. Wow what a deal
Bro you've got to spend $58 on the codex and $50 on the supplement and then spend hundreds of dollars on models and spend months playtesting them otherwise you don't know
You just can't know
Spend hundreds of dollars, then you can know.
The way I avoided spending money was playing proxy games with friends. When I started in 6th, my buddy had the Ork codex, but didn't play Orks. Thats how I got into the game. I had not a single model, but I used quarters for infantry, and other objects to represent various sized units. While it looked silly, it allowed me to test the entire book for over a month before I purchased a single model.
If you have casual players, or even friendly players, I highly doubt they would complain if you asked to use a coffee can as a stompa, or smaller coffee can as a Morkanaught, for example, to get a few rounds in with it before shelling out serious cash. Same would apply for ANY unit. Just so long as you're not going to an event with no models.
Orktavius wrote: Mob rule is better now then when the last codex was written,
How exactly is Mob Rule better now?
This is the third variation, and by far the worst.
we went from units falling back being absorbed into other units (mobbing up), to fearless while we had numbers to taking a few shots then either killing more boys or standing around looking stupid.
I think I'll play one of my other armies for a while, and let the Boys wait for the next codex.
I did a test game today with the new mob rule, despite not having the new dex. It actually kept my Manz in the game, when they would normally get over-run, same with a squad of Trukk Boyz. Granted, old bosspole for TrukkBoyz was way better, but they actually stayed put despite losing the Trukk, losing one Boy, and losing a couple more to some pot shots from some grubby necrons.
It's not THE BEST mob rule by any means...but it works well enough.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gold tooth Jerry wrote: I have the codex and I am pissed. No new big thing that has d weapon or some new thing thats overpowered in the right use. Nothing at all. Same old models, worse rules. Hell the points should of been reduced by half if they expect numbers to win the day with the gak thats out there right now.
WTF is up with the mob rule. How was it so broken that it had to be fixed in such a harsh way. With all the crazy gak that every new imperium codex gets, wave after wave, of new technology and techniques that make even more powerful units, orks get nothing. Wtf is Ghaz being LOW. From purely game play perspective wtf. feth the fluffy reason. The only good named guy in the book and now you have to take him when your facing super heavy walker spam lists. How the hell do they think any of this makes sense? Stuff that worked is nerfed to hell, stuff that was useless was buffed but not enough to warrant points, again. Every thing still dies if your opponent sneezes on the table. Hard boy armor costing almost as much as another ork and its still just 4+. Nerf to cybork body, Nerf to red paint job, nerf to fnp. Nerf to kff, I guess games workshop really has become a garbage miniatures company that used to make good rules. For as long as its been a bad codex, at least give us ork players something to want to play again. Hell if you made some big powerful expensive unit we would drop the money for it, but not you just regurgitate models and nerfed rules.
I predict the prices of orks on ebay are going to drop because of supply soon. Sometimes I wonder if GW actually created the original 40k or if they bought ti from some smart person.
I hope people bail and sell Orks for cheap! I want moar Orks anyway!
Seriously man, calm down. I honestly feel a lot of the changes aren't that bad now that the dust has settled. KFF was a mess as it was before. The fact it could cover mobs just because ONE model touched it was cheesy, and stupid, even for Orks. And, now its Invuln against shooty attacks, which is far better than a 5+ cover when so many things just tell cover to go feth itself.
I'll admit, I'm still a little sore of Cybork, but I'll adapt.
Really? No Str D? Get over it. I HATE that people want Str D in the basic book. No. No. No.
Ghaz's change is a little weird, but, he is one of the better known Warbosses out there. I wish he had gotten a few buffs to go with his new change, or at least a point drop to represent what he lost. But the boons he can get in the supplement MAY make him worth taking when you use him. *shrug* Yet to tell on that one. Not that upset personally, I never used him after his Prophet of Waaagh got FAQ'd.
As for new tech, we did get Morkanaughts and new Big Gunz, and while expensive money wise, I feel they will pull their weight. Our planes, from what's been said, have gotten better as well, even with the Dakka Jet minor nerf with Waaagh shooting.
Our Psycher isn't a laughing stock anymore.
Red Paint was a small nerf, but losing 1 inch overall isn't making me cry like a baby. The changes to Boarding Plank offset that, and it would be a little insane to get +3 inches on charge range if you combo'd the two upgrades/ even the +2 is huge from the plank.
FNP didn't really get a nerf. It's still 5+, but now you can give it to ANY unit, at the cost of an HQ slot. 30 Boyz with FNP seems pretty God-damned good to me. Helps with shaking off wounds from the mob rule too.
I don't feel the 1 point increase for Shootas is unreasonable due to the sheer volume of shots we get for the points. Pretty nuts really.
Ard Armor is still a bit pricey, but worth using on select attack squads. Again, better saves against Mob Rule for our key mobs, and can help us shrug off Bolter shots during overwatch while still getting the KFF for Invul if our armor fails (Which it typically does, but thats Orks for ya). Seems good to put on Trukk Boyz if you're worried about the explosion from the Trukk hurting them. A 50% save is better than the excitedly pathetic T-shirt save.
Just take the book in stride before throwing your models on ebay or throwing them in the closet. I'm not giving up on my Boyz. I even ordered two Morkanaughts to fill up my Heavy slots, and give two giant bubbles to protect my amry, as well as unload some nice Dakka while it's at it.
Orktavius wrote: Mob rule is better now then when the last codex was written,
How exactly is Mob Rule better now?
This is the third variation, and by far the worst.
we went from units falling back being absorbed into other units (mobbing up), to fearless while we had numbers to taking a few shots then either killing more boys or standing around looking stupid.
I think I'll play one of my other armies for a while, and let the Boys wait for the next codex.
Because before fearless caused me to lose a model for every point I lost combat by meaning my units evaporated when fighting something halfway decent in close combat instead of slowing beating them down.
Oh..Sorry...wait...I had a 6+ t-shirt save
As opposed to now where the worst I worry about are d6 s4 hits instead of taking 10 extra wounds. Is it better than 6th/7th fearless? no, but Ork mobs weren't meant to be that unstoppable.
Orktavius wrote: Because before fearless caused me to lose a model for every point I lost combat by meaning my units evaporated when fighting something halfway decent in close combat instead of slowing beating them down.
That was a main rulebook issue, not a codex issue. The previous codex went through 4 editions of 40k and Fearless wounds were only a thing in one edition.
Orktavius wrote: Because before fearless caused me to lose a model for every point I lost combat by meaning my units evaporated when fighting something halfway decent in close combat instead of slowing beating them down.
That was a main rulebook issue, not a codex issue. The previous codex went through 4 editions of 40k and Fearless wounds were only a thing in one edition.
The Ork Codex was written with 5th edition in mind, coming out just before the release of the rules. Writers knew what they were doing.
You give them much too much credit. They never know what they're doing. Just think back to the mess the deff rolla rules were in 5th and how it took them over a year to FAQ it. That codex was not 5th edition ready in the slightest. Heck, the current one is barely 7th edition ready and includes "fixes" that are obviously based on 5th edition Ork tourney lists that haven't been relevant in over 2 years. Codexes are largely developed independently of main rules.
Orktavius wrote: Mob rule is better now then when the last codex was written,
How exactly is Mob Rule better now?
This is the third variation, and by far the worst.
we went from units falling back being absorbed into other units (mobbing up), to fearless while we had numbers to taking a few shots then either killing more boys or standing around looking stupid.
I think I'll play one of my other armies for a while, and let the Boys wait for the next codex.
Because before fearless caused me to lose a model for every point I lost combat by meaning my units evaporated when fighting something halfway decent in close combat instead of slowing beating them down.
Oh..Sorry...wait...I had a 6+ t-shirt save
As opposed to now where the worst I worry about are d6 s4 hits instead of taking 10 extra wounds. Is it better than 6th/7th fearless? no, but Ork mobs weren't meant to be that unstoppable.
I might be ok with the mob rule changes if you only had to take d6 s4 hits after losing combat or taking 25% casualties (I would probably still not be happ but meh) but when a vehicle explodes losing half to the explosion and d6 more str 4 hits if you get pinned and another d6 s4 hits for losing 25% and any time you encounter something with fear or a power that makes you take a moral test it seems a bit much to me.
Mob Rule: while I did not have many units of boys as my points sank into the Stompa I did get into combat with enemy units, and it really takes its toll, I mean it really hurt to be in assault with Hormagaunts, (yes you did hear that right), and honestly once I get more games under my belt I really do think this rule will impact upon the Orks in a big negative way imo..
Does it turn into a good thing when against better armies though ?
Because the bugs ... well. I mean. Unless they get a new dex, they're not really the most dangerous out there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm not waiting for a new dex... well. not for my army anyway.
But if the Necron dex is not a straight nerf to mostly everything Necron, I think I'll be a bit pissed too.
I'd like Orks to be competitive so I would have a reason to bother asking a friend for his Ork army (lots of conversion and paint to do there...). Orks are fun, they should be playable, I hope the new dex made them better.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There's a ranking for 6th ed that says that Orks were a lot worse than CSM.
I'm not surprised since CSM are all-rounders, SM DNA there.
Do Orks player feel like the new dex is on par with the previous one, better or worse ?
In terms of the Mob Rule, I have to say I think it was one of the more absurd things our Codex had. Fearless was a bit insane at times, but it had its major downsides. Such as unable to flee from things we could not kill, nor could we go to ground when we really wish we could have. Am I saying the new Mob Rule is better? Maybe not better, but it helps keep some of the silliness down I suppose. The fact that my Boyz could tarpit that hard was kind of nuts at times. Do I like taking more wounds than is needed due to an explosion + pinning test? Nope. I don't, but there are ways to mitigate the damage.
I think people are getting wrapped up on this a little too much. With our Mob sizes, we don't often have to take moral tests unless people really hammer one big blob over and over and over. Mob rule more or less does hurt our Trukk Boyz a bit, which does sadden me a little. But, to be honest, our Trukks are often gun bait to begin with. What do you expect? When the Trukk pops, its not often those boys will be around past that turn anyway. *shrug*
I'll wait until my book is in my hand to really play test it for myself. Until then, I'll stop looking at it from a theory, because its then we make rash judgement about things we haven't even had the chance to thoroughly play test. If it ends up being a truly bad thing, I can admit it with the rest of the Ork players. Then again, its not often I'm up in arms over things either. I have fun with the game. Its what this is. A game. Its rare I won to begin with, so I don't get uppity. I just enjoy blowing things up, and I actually enjoy it when people splat my Boyz, because its funny. When they brought big AP weapons and all they can use em on is Boyz, it makes me laugh...waste of points for them they could have used elsewhere.
Mob Rule: while I did not have many units of boys as my points sank into the Stompa I did get into combat with enemy units, and it really takes its toll, I mean it really hurt to be in assault with Hormagaunts, (yes you did hear that right), and honestly once I get more games under my belt I really do think this rule will impact upon the Orks in a big negative way imo..
Does it turn into a good thing when against better armies though ?
Because the bugs ... well. I mean. Unless they get a new dex, they're not really the most dangerous out there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm not waiting for a new dex... well. not for my army anyway.
But if the Necron dex is not a straight nerf to mostly everything Necron, I think I'll be a bit pissed too.
I'd like Orks to be competitive so I would have a reason to bother asking a friend for his Ork army (lots of conversion and paint to do there...). Orks are fun, they should be playable, I hope the new dex made them better.
I have only had one game with the new codex and will be making more BatReps along with the one underway I am making of my day 1 launch.
But yeah I agree, especially for warbosses they needed better armour or at least a 3+ Sv that they can only take, as my Warboss and Boyz did just fall over to a pile of Hormagaunts, in turn against other armies they will get hurt a lot more imo..
But like I say I personally don't like this rule but again I need more games under my belt before I can make a proper judgement imo..
happygolucky wrote: First off I would say they are certainly not as bad as CSM they are in between the bugs and the CSM, as feel reading up on it the can defiantly hold their own, however thy do suffer the blandness of those codex's, nothing that give that special sauce to the beef so to say..
Secondly I'm glad the Stompa is not OP as some quick fix, as al it would mean is that my Stompa would get refused games and tbh, its great way for avoiding mob rule table..
As a CSM player I would say that the CSM Codex is far worse off than Orks imo..
There's no author credit in it but it kind of feels like the book was written by someone competent like Cruddace or Vetock and then Phil Kelly took a look at it and snuck in the Mob Rule table on the last day before it went to print. No way would that stupid table have made it through any sort of playtesting, even their in-house "beer and pretzels, take 1 of each unit and don't use tactics" playtesting.
I honestly feel as if the no author credit is just to hide the authors name so they don't get anymore grief from the community imo..
How would you rank CSM?
Beneath Orks and on Par with the bugs, simply because the more flavoursome options I like (such as Warp Talons) are just too expensive and are too easy to remove and that goes for a lot of the codex imo..
"Looted armor" - Costs 2 pts per model, gives a 5+ armor save.
Right in between the typical Ork T-shirt and the 'Eavy Armor, it's a pretty solid upgrade that some weapons (Bolters, cough) ignore, many don't, and gives you a reliable lifespan when either in a vehicle explosion or in melee.
This says it all really. About the same price as kromlech versions - but with a ton more parts. looking at the sprues, you get a complete KFF so you can, for instance, make a regular KFF mek, or put on one a bike etc, for pennies. And at our local store, which discounts, they'll be around 20 per cent cheaper than kromlech.
It does, really, although I'd approach it from opposite angle: GW selling something mass-produced in plastic and tens of thousands of units, for about the same price as you can get hand-cast resin piece.
GW can beat Kromlech in price, but I'd be more interested in companies like Mantic, who are interested in producing suitable 'replacements' in plastic.
For example, the Marauder booster including 3 MAN-style gits is £10 - the quality is a bit lower, but it definitely gives GW a run for the money at 1/4th of the price:
GW is just burning through one codex after another in a futile attempt to raise sales and hide their financial difficulties. It's no surprise the codex blitz started right before their stock plummeted.
It's also no surprise that when the only reason for these codex's is to delay the inevitable and squeeze customers, they end up being low quality and nonsensical.
And what if those faster releases were there to improve balance faster and keep codexes more in line with the latest editions to avoid having a two edition gap between the edition a codex was intended for, and the edition during which it will be refreshed ?
Because it seems that gap has historically been causing a lot of trouble.
morgoth wrote: And what if those faster releases were there to improve balance faster and keep codexes more in line with the latest editions to avoid having a two edition gap between the edition a codex was intended for, and the edition during which it will be refreshed ?
Because it seems that gap has historically been causing a lot of trouble.
If that really were the motivation behind the accelerated Codex releases, they could just update all the army lists at once without the accompanying model releases. But, as GW themselves say, they are not a rules company. They only really update rules to promote new model releases.
If that really were the motivation behind the accelerated Codex releases, they could just update all the army lists at once without the accompanying model releases. But, as GW themselves say, they are not a rules company. They only really update rules to promote new model releases.
I would love a plastic refresh of the Eldar Aspect Warriors.
Played a game yesterday against orks's using a pretty competitive chaos list. There is nothing wrong with
The new codex if you ask me. Some good value units and physkers powers are sweet!
prowla wrote: ...I'd be more interested in companies like Mantic, who are interested in producing suitable 'replacements' in plastic.
For example, the Marauder booster including 3 MAN-style gits is £10 - the quality is a bit lower, but it definitely gives GW a run for the money at 1/4th of the price:
AS John Ruskin said, "there is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that person's lawful prey."
You will spend £40 or £80 of your own time at minimum wage painting those nobs. And the Mantic ones will still look crap at the end, even with your £20 saving.
For clarity, I'm not suggesting that the Manz are perfect, a bargain, or that everyone should like them. I'm merely stating they're reasonable vfm, and that needing to "vent" because they're such a ripoff is a massive over-reaction.
prowla wrote: ...I'd be more interested in companies like Mantic, who are interested in producing suitable 'replacements' in plastic.
For example, the Marauder booster including 3 MAN-style gits is £10 - the quality is a bit lower, but it definitely gives GW a run for the money at 1/4th of the price:
AS John Ruskin said, "there is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that person's lawful prey."
You will spend £40 or £80 of your own time at minimum wage painting those nobs. And the Mantic ones will still look crap at the end, even with your £20 saving.
For clarity, I'm not suggesting that the Manz are perfect, a bargain, or that everyone should like them. I'm merely stating they're reasonable vfm, and that needing to "vent" because they're such a ripoff is a massive over-reaction.
Wow, I kinda never expected to see a comment like that on Dakka..
I agree with you, although I find the MAN box' price atrocious for 3 models. Same awful level as the Centurions. Many companies make much cheaper models/bits but at the cost of quality and while some people often feel that the potential money saved offsets that, I still think that paying a bit more for better looking miniature that's going to be used in a.. yepp, miniature wargame is more favourable to me given the fact that the game is almost all about miniatures on the table. Of course I wouldn't ridicule anyone who likes those Mantic minis more than GW ones as it's his personal opinion that he's entitled to, but I would disagree with him wholeheartedly. Overall Mantic orcs look nothing like 40k ones and that ruins them for me, although that might be partially caused by the fact that Mantic to me was always a big rip-off cheaper-version copycat leech company that preyed on those that don't mind ugly miniatures as long as they save up some money. But that's just my opinion. :-)
AS John Ruskin said, "there is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that person's lawful prey."
You will spend £40 or £80 of your own time at minimum wage painting those nobs. And the Mantic ones will still look crap at the end, even with your £20 saving.
For clarity, I'm not suggesting that the Manz are perfect, a bargain, or that everyone should like them. I'm merely stating they're reasonable vfm, and that needing to "vent" because they're such a ripoff is a massive over-reaction.
You are correct, sir, that you have to think where your priorities lie. People who are interested in the cheaper alternatives are more likely those who want to field MANz by the numbers. However, I'm more interested in the fact that the said price point exists for a smaller manufacturer. If a small company like Mantic can produce plastic at that price, sooner or later someone comes along and challenges GW both in price AND quality.
I've said it before, that GW's ever rising prices and hit/miss quality are a gift for small companies, creating a rather large opening for them to operate in. GW could probably immediately weed half of the small companies off the markets, if they priced their stuff aggressively. It of course might be that they keep their fingers on the pulse, milk the crowd now, and start to drop prices immediately when they feel other companies are really threatening their sales.
I'm a bit disappointed that Big Meks can't have burnas any more, mostly because 2 of my meks has them.
On the SAG mek it can be removed, but the KFF mek will be sitting on the bench until 2020 (next ork dex).
I'm not alone with this though, the White dwarf article about the new junior mek mentions that he has a burna on his back,
way to support WYSIWYGGW
While the codex will allow us to build powerful list, most of the new ones seems to be playable only in a single, less of "keep the enemy guessing" way. Maybe It's just me, but I like it when my opponent can't figure out exactly how I'm going to play my army and how to counter it the moment I start pulling out models.
Oh, and another WTF on mobrule, cybork-bodies, no-moving-around-slots and even more crowded HQ and HS slots.
I do like what they did with tankbustas, time to build some more and a transport for them
-Greentide - weak as before, fnp won't help you when the concept itself doesn't work since 6 ed. Can still be run with sucksess vs a number of lists.
-Battlewagon spam - more expensive but bw are more durable, boyz are weaker with new mob rule though.
-Walker spam with morkanaught - don't know yet but sure it's gona need unboud or double foc to do a thing.
-Fast unit spam - bikers are way better, buggies and koptas have reasonable prices, don't know bout stormboyz yet but those guyz are sure capable of 2-d turn charge. Need solid blos to work though.
-Mixed bag of everything - has gotten better with units that are used in this type of lists recieving a buff - manz, tankbustas...wierdboyz?.. and support units like big gunz are buffed. Even commandoes with snikrot are somewhat playable.
Targets a "single friendly unit" and says "all models in the target unit gain the Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain (4+) and Relentless special rules."
Combine with Ministorum Priest's rerolling to hit in the first round of combat and rerolling armor saves, and it makes a unit of Marines disgusting. But until they FAQ out the ability to take three Priests and three Psykers in addition to a standard HQ in freaking allied detachments, we get to keep seeing shenanigans like that with Imperial armies.
), there's a trend with these 4. I was quite happy with Space Marines. No major overhauls, but the Chapter Tactics system was nice, nothing got completely borked, and the new stuff was interesting and exciting. Then Tyranids got mangled. Then Guard, and sure they lost a bunch of special characters (RIP Marbo 
