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Post by: Lord Tarkin
An ongoing debate has started over how many SM's it would take to conquer a planet though I believe sieze is a better word for it.
How many do you think can get the job done?
Clarification: The world in question would be a standard Imperial civilized world.
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Post by: Ashiraya
By sieze, do you mean:
Crush all organised opposition
Crush all opposition
Establish a fragile occupation
Establish a stable occupation
?
I assume you meant the former so I voted 100.
Assuming standard Imperial world.
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Post by: sing your life
Depends on a planet. Half a company could invade something like a agricultural world without too much difficulty. But you would need a entire chapter or 2 to take over a properly fortified world.
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Post by: Lord Tarkin
 Ashiraya wrote:By sieze, do you mean:
Crush all organised opposition
Crush all opposition
Establish a fragile occupation
Establish a stable occupation
?
I assume you meant the former so I voted 100.
Assuming standard Imperial world.
By military logic and diplomacy. Invading a world is a last resort for almost any SM chapter. Quite simply, how many marines does it take to beat a world into Imperial rule?
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Post by: sing your life
 Lord Tarkin wrote: Quite simply, how many marines does it take to beat a world into Imperial rule?
You haven't told us what kind of the world the SM are invading, so I don't really know.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Realistically, to seize it? Depends entirely on what you define as "seizing". If you just mean destroying whatever government is there, it could be very few or a lot. If you mean *HOLDING* a planet, realistically you'd need millions.
Evens super soldiers have limits, and a planet is a very large thing indeed. Even with a hundred thousand Space Marines, they just couldn't be everywhere they'd need to be. If you look at a battlefront like WW2's eastern front, a hundred thousand Space Marines would be stretched out to 50 per mile of front, which makes for a very thin front indeed. Having to hold an entire planet against a hostile populace and millions of reasonably equipped troops? They'd need huge numbers of Space Marines simply to just provide presence and eyes in certain areas, much less to actually have enough to hold anything.
The Space Marines don't really work well once you start breaking them down from any sort of realistic perspective.
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Post by: Lord Tarkin
 sing your life wrote: Lord Tarkin wrote: Quite simply, how many marines does it take to beat a world into Imperial rule?
You haven't told us what kind of the world the SM are invading, so I don't really know.
A standard Imperial world. I apologize for the failure of clarification but there you have it.
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Post by: pm713
Define standard Imperial world. What defences are there? What military forces are there? How big is it? How good is the environment? How big is the population? Could be 1 marine to take over some planets could be 1000 for others.
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Post by: sing your life
Lord Tarkin wrote: sing your life wrote: Lord Tarkin wrote: Quite simply, how many marines does it take to beat a world into Imperial rule?
You haven't told us what kind of the world the SM are invading, so I don't really know.
A standard Imperial world. I apologize for the failure of clarification but there you have it.
Well then I voted 100 based on my previous post.
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Post by: Lord Tarkin
 Vaktathi wrote:Realistically, to seize it? Depends entirely on what you define as "seizing". If you just mean destroying whatever government is there, it could be very few or a lot. If you mean *HOLDING* a planet, realistically you'd need millions.
Evens super soldiers have limits, and a planet is a very large thing indeed. Even with a hundred thousand Space Marines, they just couldn't be everywhere they'd need to be. If you look at a battlefront like WW2's eastern front, a hundred thousand Space Marines would be stretched out to 50 per mile of front, which makes for a very thin front indeed. Having to hold an entire planet against a hostile populace and millions of reasonably equipped troops? They'd need huge numbers of Space Marines simply to just provide presence and eyes in certain areas, much less to actually have enough to hold anything.
The Space Marines don't really work well once you start breaking them down from any sort of realistic perspective.
By "seize" I mean to take away suddenly and by force, though holding it wold be absurd. That is better left to the IG
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote:Define standard Imperial world. What defences are there? What military forces are there? How big is it? How good is the environment? How big is the population? Could be 1 marine to take over some planets could be 1000 for others.
Please read the description. Standard Civilized world.
Of course I'm half asleep right now. Lol, I missed "civilized" in my message to sing your life. My bad
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Post by: Ashiraya
Space Marines can't hold as much ground as Guardsmen can, but they have an advantage. Even if it is not being controlled by the Guard, a city in this example might not want to rebel because they know that if they do, the Marines will be there in a heartbeat and absolutely destroy them.
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Post by: Lord Tarkin
Ashiraya wrote:Space Marines can't hold as much ground as Guardsmen can, but they have an advantage. Even if it is not being controlled by the Guard, a city in this example might not want to rebel because they know that if they do, the Marines will be there in a heartbeat and absolutely destroy them.
That's the gist for most SM chapters. They'd rather not have to fight an entire population but rather intimidate them into surrender.
However, if the leader goes by the name of Tom Zarek then nobody will surrender *sigh*
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Post by: Vaktathi
Ashiraya wrote:Space Marines can't hold as much ground as Guardsmen can, but they have an advantage. Even if it is not being controlled by the Guard, a city in this example might not want to rebel because they know that if they do, the Marines will be there in a heartbeat and absolutely destroy them.
That's another thing, the SM's don't have much of an intelligence apparatus, yet apparently always know when, where, and how their opponents are operating. Lightning reactions aren't always the best responses 
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Post by: Lord Tarkin
Vaktathi wrote: Ashiraya wrote:Space Marines can't hold as much ground as Guardsmen can, but they have an advantage. Even if it is not being controlled by the Guard, a city in this example might not want to rebel because they know that if they do, the Marines will be there in a heartbeat and absolutely destroy them.
That's another thing, the SM's don't have much of an intelligence apparatus, yet apparently always know when, where, and how their opponents are operating. Lightning reactions aren't always the best responses
Plot twist: All humans have been probed at birth and don't know it
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Post by: pm713
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote:Define standard Imperial world. What defences are there? What military forces are there? How big is it? How good is the environment? How big is the population? Could be 1 marine to take over some planets could be 1000 for others.
Please read the description. Standard Civilized world.
Of course I'm half asleep right now. Lol, I missed "civilized" in my message to sing your life. My bad
Which says nothing about what can defend it and what's there. Based on what I know about Civilised Worlds I'm saying 100 seeing as they don't seem to have much.
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Post by: Wakshaani
An important distinction, here, between TAKE a planet and HOLD a planet.
A battle company is exactly the size you need to take an Imperial world in rebellion. With drop pods and teleporters, Marines are set into a few key areas (The planet's ruler's home/seat of government, a spaceport, and then 1-3 lesser targets, such as a munitions plant or a dam) and then allowed to do what they do. This lets you cut the head off the snake and establish a beachhead, which is when larger forces, like the Guard, come in. Marine manpower is too slow to HOLD a world for long... a month at best before you have so many riots and small resistance groups that you can't deal with it.
This is one of the reasons that they don't use camo and wear the paint boldly: They're a "Shock and Awe" force, dropping in like concquers and using fear to keep the populace quelled long enough for support to arrive. When the Marines show up, in big bright armor and waving banners and symbols around, you know that "The Emperor is HERE" and that alone will keep the peace briefly. Once the Guard show up, the Marines pass rulership and occupation duties over, then go back to the ship to work on replacing their casualties and resupply, waiting for the next mission. You might leave a token force behind (Say, a tactical squad and a veteran sergeant) to serve as advisors and a bodyguard for the new governor for a while, but they'll be picked back up on the ship's next pass.
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Post by: Vaktathi
The problem is in like half the SM fluff they're portrayed as actually conquering and holding worlds or cities without support from the IG or other Imperial forces
That said, even a company is a far stretch to seize a planet, that would have to be a world with an incredibly organize and centralized command system that's vulnerable to swift attack and little means of redundancy. It again comes back to the "they can't be everywhere" problem, in that a single small gap could allow a Governor to escape or a defense force to force a breach in a line, and even very small casualties to such an SM force would quickly cause its position to be come untenable and unable to throw off counterattacks.
If you look at something like the US, which isn't even in control of an entire planet, one could conquer or even wipe out Washington DC, and one wouldn't effectively have "seized" the US, as there are thousands of Federal facilities spread across the continent as well as state and local governments capable of acting on their own for many things. For an entire planet, the issue would be magnified a thousand fold.
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Post by: Lord Tarkin
Alright everybody, I'm done trying to explain every single little thing. Seize, conquer, destroy, obliterate, kill and occupy, whatever. Stop giving me grey hairs over the uneeded complication of a single word. You all are big girls and boys and I'm sure you can interpret the above question without needing to ask a billion questions.
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Post by: Wyzilla
Vaktathi wrote:The problem is in like half the SM fluff they're portrayed as actually conquering and holding worlds or cities without support from the IG or other Imperial forces That said, even a company is a far stretch to seize a planet, that would have to be a world with an incredibly organize and centralized command system that's vulnerable to swift attack and little means of redundancy. It again comes back to the "they can't be everywhere" problem, in that a single small gap could allow a Governor to escape or a defense force to force a breach in a line, and even very small casualties to such an SM force would quickly cause its position to be come untenable and unable to throw off counterattacks. If you look at something like the US, which isn't even in control of an entire planet, one could conquer or even wipe out Washington DC, and one wouldn't effectively have "seized" the US, as there are thousands of Federal facilities spread across the continent as well as state and local governments capable of acting on their own for many things. For an entire planet, the issue would be magnified a thousand fold.
You're forgetting there aren't really democracies in W40K due to the Imperium viewing them as weak and feeble (which they are, sorta, but that's another topic) and thus semi heretical, and democracies being incredibly vulnerable to Chaos screwing with them. Almost every planet is a dictatorship. I always liked the short story that was either on the Raptors or the Emperor's Swords, can't remember which. A Rogue Trader went to dine with with the planetary lord. Then he steps away and presses a button on his pocket watch (or something, but it was some pointless jewelry) and suddenly terminators teleport in- the rogue trader was wearing a homer. The Terminators then mow down the entire government, but the planetary lord manages to escape to his bunker thanks to wearing a Rosarius. Then the rest of the company sweeps through the capital and butchers everything until they get to the vault, blow it open with a multi-melta, and kill the planetary lord. Fairly good story and a good example of how a Chapter can bring a planet to its knees. Oh, and the scouts attached to the combat force pinned down the arbites by popping their commanders and anyone else who stuck out their heads.
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Post by: Vaktathi
 Wyzilla wrote: Vaktathi wrote:The problem is in like half the SM fluff they're portrayed as actually conquering and holding worlds or cities without support from the IG or other Imperial forces
That said, even a company is a far stretch to seize a planet, that would have to be a world with an incredibly organize and centralized command system that's vulnerable to swift attack and little means of redundancy. It again comes back to the "they can't be everywhere" problem, in that a single small gap could allow a Governor to escape or a defense force to force a breach in a line, and even very small casualties to such an SM force would quickly cause its position to be come untenable and unable to throw off counterattacks.
If you look at something like the US, which isn't even in control of an entire planet, one could conquer or even wipe out Washington DC, and one wouldn't effectively have "seized" the US, as there are thousands of Federal facilities spread across the continent as well as state and local governments capable of acting on their own for many things. For an entire planet, the issue would be magnified a thousand fold.
You're forgetting there aren't really democracies in W40K due to the Imperium viewing them as weak and feeble (which they are, sorta, but that's another topic) and thus semi heretical, and democracies being incredibly vulnerable to Chaos screwing with them. Almost every planet is a dictatorship.
It's not the type of government, it's the centralization aspect. The USSR wasn't a democracy either, but taking the Kremlin in and of itself wouldn't have given an invading force control of the nation, as there were large numbers of backup command centers and a political continuance plan.
To put it another way, a specialized commando force able to drop in from space could probably take control of North Korea's government because it is so centralized and invested in a small number of people in one city, but not China or South Korea's as there's significantly more redundancy in military and civilian command and control, despite China and South Korea having radically different governments.
I always liked the short story that was either on the Raptors or the Emperor's Swords, can't remember which. A Rogue Trader went to dine with with the planetary lord. Then he steps away and presses a button on his pocket watch (or something, but it was some pointless jewelry) and suddenly terminators teleport in- the rogue trader was wearing a homer. The Terminators then mow down the entire government, but the planetary lord manages to escape to his bunker thanks to wearing a Rosarius.
And that only works if the Planetary Governor governs like a Kim-Jong-un, with very little dilineated power to subordinates or decentralized operations. No lesser Nobles or House siblings to take over or operate sub-jurisdictions, etc.
Then the rest of the company sweeps through the capital and butchers everything until they get to the vault, blow it open with a multi-melta, and kill the planetary lord. Fairly good story and a good example of how a Chapter can bring a planet to its knees.
Which requires them to know where the vault is, how to get there, have relatively light defenses, no additional escape plan, etc.
Oh, and the scouts attached to the combat force pinned down the arbites by popping their commanders and anyone else who stuck out their heads.
Which, from any sort of realistic perspective, requires them to know where and who the enemy commanders are, and be able to get relatively close and in a position where they can fire at them. If they don't know any of these things, and/or the enemy is operating from a command bunker or heavy armored vehicle or miles behind the lines, it makes that whole endeavor pointless.
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Post by: Wyzilla
Vaktathi wrote: Wyzilla wrote: Vaktathi wrote:The problem is in like half the SM fluff they're portrayed as actually conquering and holding worlds or cities without support from the IG or other Imperial forces
That said, even a company is a far stretch to seize a planet, that would have to be a world with an incredibly organize and centralized command system that's vulnerable to swift attack and little means of redundancy. It again comes back to the "they can't be everywhere" problem, in that a single small gap could allow a Governor to escape or a defense force to force a breach in a line, and even very small casualties to such an SM force would quickly cause its position to be come untenable and unable to throw off counterattacks.
If you look at something like the US, which isn't even in control of an entire planet, one could conquer or even wipe out Washington DC, and one wouldn't effectively have "seized" the US, as there are thousands of Federal facilities spread across the continent as well as state and local governments capable of acting on their own for many things. For an entire planet, the issue would be magnified a thousand fold.
You're forgetting there aren't really democracies in W40K due to the Imperium viewing them as weak and feeble (which they are, sorta, but that's another topic) and thus semi heretical, and democracies being incredibly vulnerable to Chaos screwing with them. Almost every planet is a dictatorship.
It's not the type of government, it's the centralization aspect. The USSR wasn't a democracy either, but taking the Kremlin in and of itself wouldn't have given an invading force control of the nation, as there were large numbers of backup command centers and a political continuance plan.
To put it another way, a specialized commando force able to drop in from space could probably take control of North Korea's government because it is so centralized and invested in a small number of people in one city, but not China or South Korea's as there's significantly more redundancy in military and civilian command and control, despite China and South Korea having radically different governments.
I wasn't saying its similar to say the USSR, I mean an actual true dictatorship bordering on a monarchy. One guy rules the entire planet, he lives in one city, and everything else obeys him. There may be one or two other people capable of rallying aid to them, but they live in the same Hive City.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Wyzilla wrote: Vaktathi wrote: Wyzilla wrote: Vaktathi wrote:The problem is in like half the SM fluff they're portrayed as actually conquering and holding worlds or cities without support from the IG or other Imperial forces
That said, even a company is a far stretch to seize a planet, that would have to be a world with an incredibly organize and centralized command system that's vulnerable to swift attack and little means of redundancy. It again comes back to the "they can't be everywhere" problem, in that a single small gap could allow a Governor to escape or a defense force to force a breach in a line, and even very small casualties to such an SM force would quickly cause its position to be come untenable and unable to throw off counterattacks.
If you look at something like the US, which isn't even in control of an entire planet, one could conquer or even wipe out Washington DC, and one wouldn't effectively have "seized" the US, as there are thousands of Federal facilities spread across the continent as well as state and local governments capable of acting on their own for many things. For an entire planet, the issue would be magnified a thousand fold.
You're forgetting there aren't really democracies in W40K due to the Imperium viewing them as weak and feeble (which they are, sorta, but that's another topic) and thus semi heretical, and democracies being incredibly vulnerable to Chaos screwing with them. Almost every planet is a dictatorship.
It's not the type of government, it's the centralization aspect. The USSR wasn't a democracy either, but taking the Kremlin in and of itself wouldn't have given an invading force control of the nation, as there were large numbers of backup command centers and a political continuance plan.
To put it another way, a specialized commando force able to drop in from space could probably take control of North Korea's government because it is so centralized and invested in a small number of people in one city, but not China or South Korea's as there's significantly more redundancy in military and civilian command and control, despite China and South Korea having radically different governments.
I wasn't saying its similar to say the USSR, I mean an actual true dictatorship bordering on a monarchy. One guy rules the entire planet, he lives in one city, and everything else obeys him. There may be one or two other people capable of rallying aid to them, but they live in the same Hive City.
Right, in that case you can do it with a single lightning strike. But if there's multiple lords, or if they have sub-lords operating different areas of the planet in their name, or if there's any sort of political continuation system in place, or an effective escape/recovery plan, that all goes out the window.
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Post by: Harriticus
In terms of real military necessities and logistics, even with Space Marines as presented in fluff, the minimum is 100,000. It takes an enormous amount of troops to occupy anything, even if you completely overwhelm the enemy. The US curbstomped Iraq and 250,000 wasn't nearly enough to contain the country effectively. Yes, US soldiers aren't Space Marines, but Space Marines aren't Gods either.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
To take and hold an Imperial world?
More than a hundred thousand, assuming no auxiliary forces. For pacification, you need something like one soldier/peacekeeper/face-of-authority for every hundred or so people, assuming they don't want to cause problems.
A more meaningful question would be "How many Marines would you need for ten million Guardsmen to take and hold a planet in a reasonable amount of time."
Which the answer would be "Ten for every day less than a year you want the war to take" or so.
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Post by: Ignatius
 Furyou Miko wrote:To take and hold an Imperial world?
More than a hundred thousand, assuming no auxiliary forces. For pacification, you need something like one soldier/peacekeeper/face-of-authority for every hundred or so people, assuming they don't want to cause problems.
A more meaningful question would be "How many Marines would you need for ten million Guardsmen to take and hold a planet in a reasonable amount of time."
Which the answer would be "Ten for every day less than a year you want the war to take" or so.
I agree pretty much completely with this.
No not pretty much. I agree completely.
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Post by: Lord Tarkin
Wow, just wooooooow.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Lord Tarkin wrote:Wow, just wooooooow. Dakka is terrble. Im done with that disrespect. Delete aything you want Dakka, i still saw it
Wat? 
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Post by: Lord Tarkin
I was plainly insulted for being American.
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Post by: Wyzilla
Lord Tarkin wrote:
Got deleted. I was plainly insulted for being American. They can erase it from the web but it'll stay in my mind.
To be fair, a lot of anti-American bashing can be made from a legitimate position, but bashing people is stupid. Still
-flies "Woo We're Number 10" flag-
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Post by: Lord Tarkin
Oh wait, It was on another thread.
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Post by: Wyzilla
Also dammit, I can't believe I missed out on this post.
More than one.
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Post by: Lord Tarkin
What?
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Post by: TheCustomLime
100,000 seems like a good number if we're assuming a world that can field the equivalent of a Imperial Guard or better grade forces. This also depends on how powerful you assume a marine to be. Is he as good as several dozen or several hundred trained human soldiers? It also depends on whether the population is motivated to resist the fascist invaders and if they can an established line of successors in case the President bites it. If we're talking about a world that's NK on crack then it should be easy. If it's a politically healthy world then you would be in for a long war.
I say 100,000 because on average it seems like your average Imperial world is a gak hole of a planet with poor mobilization rates and a very centralized command. All the Astartes have to do is scout out several choice targets, send down their forces, muderate anything in sight and watch the population's will to resist crumble as they see no point in defending anymore.
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Post by: KorPhaeron77
One legion could have done it. The Alpha Legion actually have the only viable marine tactic. Line up your allies on the planet before hand, effectively choosing the new government from the planet's populace. Pop 10 drops pods at high importance targets, kill current leaders and withdraw, continue war from shadows.
Think about it. For years the CIA got away with installing governments that were pro-America. But slam in with the full might of the greatest army in the world and you get a decade of fighting that singularly fails to accomplish anything of note. The Alphas may have been considered unorthodox but they are actually the only Legion who made even close to sense when thought of in real terms.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
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Post by: Wyzilla
 KorPhaeron77 wrote:One legion could have done it. The Alpha Legion actually have the only viable marine tactic. Line up your allies on the planet before hand, effectively choosing the new government from the planet's populace. Pop 10 drops pods at high importance targets, kill current leaders and withdraw, continue war from shadows.
Think about it. For years the CIA got away with installing governments that were pro-America. But slam in with the full might of the greatest army in the world and you get a decade of fighting that singularly fails to accomplish anything of note. The Alphas may have been considered unorthodox but they are actually the only Legion who made even close to sense when thought of in real terms.
That and the Night Lords.
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Post by: PhillyT
A space marine can lock down and hold an area roughly 1 mile around him. And that is being very charitable.
It would take hundreds of thousands of Marines to control a planet. Winning and controlling are two totally different things. A thousands could crush all opposition, but to actually control a hostile planet would require an unbelievable number.
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Post by: Desubot
Accidentally voted 10. but wanted 100
Id say 100 marines and a few regimens of IG would do the trick.
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Post by: Ashiraya
 PhillyT wrote:A space marine can lock down and hold an area roughly 1 mile around him. And that is being very charitable.
It would take hundreds of thousands of Marines to control a planet. Winning and controlling are two totally different things. A thousands could crush all opposition, but to actually control a hostile planet would require an unbelievable number.
The majority of a standard planet is empty ground. You only really need to control the cities.
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Post by: Wyzilla
Ashiraya wrote: PhillyT wrote:A space marine can lock down and hold an area roughly 1 mile around him. And that is being very charitable.
It would take hundreds of thousands of Marines to control a planet. Winning and controlling are two totally different things. A thousands could crush all opposition, but to actually control a hostile planet would require an unbelievable number.
The majority of a standard planet is empty ground. You only really need to control the cities.
Those "cities" can reach so high they're actually in space. Hive Cities are REALLY REALLY BIG.
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Post by: Ashiraya
Wyzilla wrote: Ashiraya wrote: PhillyT wrote:A space marine can lock down and hold an area roughly 1 mile around him. And that is being very charitable.
It would take hundreds of thousands of Marines to control a planet. Winning and controlling are two totally different things. A thousands could crush all opposition, but to actually control a hostile planet would require an unbelievable number.
The majority of a standard planet is empty ground. You only really need to control the cities.
Those "cities" can reach so high they're actually in space. Hive Cities are REALLY REALLY BIG.
And? Control of the hive spire/s where the HQ is is what matters.
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Post by: Greenizbest
Depends on how thick their plot armor is. Space Marines can die by the hundreds depending on which book you're reading.
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Post by: Ashiraya
 Greenizbest wrote:Depends on how thick their plot armor is. Space Marines can die by the hundreds depending on which book you're reading.
Do you know what plot armour is? If something varies in power from author to author but each author is consistent, it is not plot armour.
If something is established as X strong but somehow does things that requires Y strength without explanation, that is plot armour.
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Post by: angelofvengeance
Depends on the writer lol
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Post by: Vaktathi
This is really it more than anything else.
We have authors where Space Marines die like flies (particularly in the HH series) and others where they're practically gods, immune to nearly everything.
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Post by: Lord Tarkin
Ok, let me nail this real quick.
SM's never hold a planet. That's litterally never in their job description, ever. They go in, seize it, give it to the IG.
So how many marines does it take to do that? I put 1,000 marines, an entire chapter though a long war indeed will turn a rebellious planet to Imperial rule.
I didn't include IG in the question but I thought it was common sense really. SM's invading a planet without IG is like fighting a war with your bare fists. It's...hard....to say the least, lol. 1,000 marines and a couple IG regiments will get it done.
I'm new to these polls anyway haha, next time I do one I'll include 3 whole entire paragraphs of details so theres precisely 0 confusion.
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Post by: P4Painting
If it's Ultramarines then 10 should do the trick =D
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Post by: Lord Tarkin
Haha, I see what you did there
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Post by: Vaktathi
Lord Tarkin wrote:Ok, let me nail this real quick.
SM's never hold a planet. That's litterally never in their job description, ever. They go in, seize it, give it to the IG.
Except they routinely do this in a lot of fluff
So how many marines does it take to do that? I put 1,000 marines, an entire chapter though a long war indeed will turn a rebellious planet to Imperial rule.
There's a ton of variables. Basically, the more concentrated the power, the easier their job is. If they've got any sort of backup/redundant military and political systems and fortified and/or hidden command centers or fallback locations, you'd need way more than a thousand. It'd be very easy to encircle and cut off a thousand marines in just a few hours even without even directly engaging them. Once that happens, if the opposing planetary defense forces have any sort of artillery and/or air forces (or, Emperor help them, Strategic weapons), it's going to go very bad for the marines in hours if there's a competent enemy commander.
Again, SM's really are a variable-power Fantasy-in-Space type deal, they work because GW says they work and fall apart very quickly if you start applying realism to them.
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
The only right answer would be… IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAND!
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Post by: Mythantor
The way I see marines subduing a planet is via a series of lightning strikes.
1) Initial drop pod assault to capture primary leaders/ communication nodes/weapon silo's etc.
2) Redeploy by thunderhawk to take out secondary targets such regional command nodes.
3)While this is happening the ships in orbit are using orbital strikes on targets such as airbases/missile silo's and providing cover for the ground forces.
4)Then point the planetery leader appears on every monitor on the planet announcing the surrender.( the marines with guns behind the camera ensure he does this)
At this point the planet has been subdues and the imperial guard will move in.
This strategy relies on a centralised govermant which is standard for most imperial worlds and wont hold the planet long term but will work in the short term.
Orbital surveilance to identify any buildup of resistance then rapid strikes to utterly destroy them with extreme prejudice.
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Post by: Lord Tarkin
Vaktathi wrote: Lord Tarkin wrote:Ok, let me nail this real quick.
SM's never hold a planet. That's litterally never in their job description, ever. They go in, seize it, give it to the IG.
Except they routinely do this in a lot of fluff
So how many marines does it take to do that? I put 1,000 marines, an entire chapter though a long war indeed will turn a rebellious planet to Imperial rule.
There's a ton of variables. Basically, the more concentrated the power, the easier their job is. If they've got any sort of backup/redundant military and political systems and fortified and/or hidden command centers or fallback locations, you'd need way more than a thousand. It'd be very easy to encircle and cut off a thousand marines in just a few hours even without even directly engaging them. Once that happens, if the opposing planetary defense forces have any sort of artillery and/or air forces (or, Emperor help them, Strategic weapons), it's going to go very bad for the marines in hours if there's a competent enemy commander.
Again, SM's really are a variable-power Fantasy-in-Space type deal, they work because GW says they work and fall apart very quickly if you start applying realism to them.
*sighs* yes, unfotunately GW has grown quite a crop haven't they. We should go back to the legion days, where 100,000 SM's could stomp a planet in the dirt.
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Post by: 1hadhq
Lord Tarkin wrote:Ok, let me nail this real quick.
SM's never hold a planet. That's litterally never in their job description, ever. They go in, seize it, give it to the IG.
So how many marines does it take to do that? I put 1,000 marines, an entire chapter though a long war indeed will turn a rebellious planet to Imperial rule.
I didn't include IG in the question but I thought it was common sense really. SM's invading a planet without IG is like fighting a war with your bare fists. It's...hard....to say the least, lol. 1,000 marines and a couple IG regiments will get it done.
I'm new to these polls anyway haha, next time I do one I'll include 3 whole entire paragraphs of details so theres precisely 0 confusion.
Maybe not 3 paragraphs but the general classification of Imperial worlds and pointing out which we should consider for conquest. 
Basically the IoM has everything imaginable. Planets at a stone age and modern worlds. Densly populated Hives and Agri-worlds with a few hundred farmers. To beat a "king" ( governor ) and his knights and men-at-arms needs less Marines than dealing with a civilized world in a "shootier" era.
Plus GW created Maps and Planets... are often rather  than 
Like 1 continent + 1 megacity = planet done. Mission Objective? "Take the space port and win." How many SM would I need for this ?
IMO only Hives and fortresses have lots of forces thrown at them, Hives usually IG to get them back into the fold and fortresses usually a bit of overdoing it ( SM+ IG+IN+AdMech+whoever comes ).
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Post by: PhillyT
Ashiraya wrote: PhillyT wrote:A space marine can lock down and hold an area roughly 1 mile around him. And that is being very charitable.
It would take hundreds of thousands of Marines to control a planet. Winning and controlling are two totally different things. A thousands could crush all opposition, but to actually control a hostile planet would require an unbelievable number.
The majority of a standard planet is empty ground. You only really need to control the cities.
May I draw your attention to the pure hell that is Afghanistan?
If we are talking about full, locked dow, control, it takes a significant number.
If the marines have IG regiments available, then that is a different story. But just Marines, you need hundreds of thousands. Even with advanced technology and super humans, the actual occupation is a factor of bodies, not ability. Being able to crush what ever is around you doesn't remove the threat that is around the corner working to subvert the control being applied.
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Post by: Lord Tarkin
 1hadhq wrote: Lord Tarkin wrote:Ok, let me nail this real quick.
SM's never hold a planet. That's litterally never in their job description, ever. They go in, seize it, give it to the IG.
So how many marines does it take to do that? I put 1,000 marines, an entire chapter though a long war indeed will turn a rebellious planet to Imperial rule.
I didn't include IG in the question but I thought it was common sense really. SM's invading a planet without IG is like fighting a war with your bare fists. It's...hard....to say the least, lol. 1,000 marines and a couple IG regiments will get it done.
I'm new to these polls anyway haha, next time I do one I'll include 3 whole entire paragraphs of details so theres precisely 0 confusion.
Maybe not 3 paragraphs but the general classification of Imperial worlds and pointing out which we should consider for conquest.
Basically the IoM has everything imaginable. Planets at a stone age and modern worlds. Densly populated Hives and Agri-worlds with a few hundred farmers. To beat a "king" ( governor ) and his knights and men-at-arms needs less Marines than dealing with a civilized world in a "shootier" era.
Plus GW created Maps and Planets... are often rather than
Like 1 continent + 1 megacity = planet done. Mission Objective? "Take the space port and win." How many SM would I need for this ?
IMO only Hives and fortresses have lots of forces thrown at them, Hives usually IG to get them back into the fold and fortresses usually a bit of overdoing it ( SM+ IG+IN+AdMech+whoever comes ).
1 SM is enough to convert a feral world. However, hive cities may need 1000 and some IG regiments.
It all depends I guess. There some planets so big they have 20,000,000,000 inhabitants and I believe that may require several SM chapters and 10 IG regiments.
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Post by: PhillyT
And how would a single SM convert a feral world?
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Post by: Lord Tarkin
Seriously, 1 marine, 1 squad at least could easily convert a feral world. Not like feral people are nearly as smart and technologically advanced
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Post by: pm713
Groups of angry feral people can kill Space Marines.
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Post by: PhillyT
Lord Tarkin wrote:
Seriously, 1 marine, 1 squad at least could easily convert a feral world. Not like feral people are nearly as smart and technologically advanced
How?
You are making a pretty huge leap here. How would a single marine convert anyone? We in America can't even convert a city in most cases and we have a common, shared planet, relatively equal value systems, and some common cultural connections that can be made.
Landing a genetically augmented killing machine on a feral world and expecting him to be able to somehow convert or subvert an entire population doesn't have much in the way of rational plausibility.
And yeah, a feral world would be quite capable of killing a single marine.
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Post by: Lord Tarkin
PhillyT wrote: Lord Tarkin wrote:
Seriously, 1 marine, 1 squad at least could easily convert a feral world. Not like feral people are nearly as smart and technologically advanced
How?
You are making a pretty huge leap here. How would a single marine convert anyone? We in America can't even convert a city in most cases and we have a common, shared planet, relatively equal value systems, and some common cultural connections that can be made.
Landing a genetically augmented killing machine on a feral world and expecting him to be able to somehow convert or subvert an entire population doesn't have much in the way of rational plausibility.
And yeah, a feral world would be quite capable of killing a single marine.
Did you really just compare America to a feral world? C'mon now, a marine or a squad could slaughter a feral world.
But that isn't of course what would be done. Now that I think about it, that would be an IG job once again. Military protocol takes very little precedence when it comes to a feral world. There is very little to fear for the Imperium when it comes to a feral world. The poeple are unfortunately to dumb to understand much of anything hence being easily convinced or intimidated.
Imperium would just send in an IG regiment to set up a small government and an ecclesiarchy staff.
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Post by: Daba
Lord Tarkin wrote: sing your life wrote: Lord Tarkin wrote: Quite simply, how many marines does it take to beat a world into Imperial rule?
You haven't told us what kind of the world the SM are invading, so I don't really know.
A standard Imperial world. I apologize for the failure of clarification but there you have it.
Zero since it's already in Imperial Rule.
Case closed.
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Post by: PhillyT
How would a single Space Marine seize an entire feral world? Assuming even that it is nothing but dirty, unorganized people with no ability to domesticate local fauna, how will a single Space Marine seize the entire thing? By the time he had killed every human in a given area and moved onto the next, the first area would probably have begun to repopulate. He could spend centuries going around murdering and simply need to move back to a previous area to refill the next generation of humans.
You also underestimate the ability for humans to figure out a way to kill a single space marine. Forget the logistical issues like him running out of bolted rounds pretty quickly.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
How would a single Marine seize an entire feral world?
Easily.
Pose as an agent of their existing gods. Take their best young warriors away to eternal glory in heaven every year or two.
Your feral world has now become a productive Astartes Recruiting World. Well done.
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Post by: Lord Tarkin
PhillyT wrote:How would a single Space Marine seize an entire feral world? Assuming even that it is nothing but dirty, unorganized people with no ability to domesticate local fauna, how will a single Space Marine seize the entire thing? By the time he had killed every human in a given area and moved onto the next, the first area would probably have begun to repopulate. He could spend centuries going around murdering and simply need to move back to a previous area to refill the next generation of humans.
You also underestimate the ability for humans to figure out a way to kill a single space marine. Forget the logistical issues like him running out of bolted rounds pretty quickly.
Alright dude, argue all you want. Not everything is killing and purging, they are innocent feral people in need of guidance. Read exactly what Furyou Miko just said and stop being such a tool. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Daba wrote: Lord Tarkin wrote: sing your life wrote: Lord Tarkin wrote: Quite simply, how many marines does it take to beat a world into Imperial rule?
You haven't told us what kind of the world the SM are invading, so I don't really know.
A standard Imperial world. I apologize for the failure of clarification but there you have it.
Zero since it's already in Imperial Rule.
Case closed.
Ok yes, you are soooo smart.
Do you have to take everything so litteral? Are you that incapable of being able to interpret and analyze data or are you just trying your best to find ways of making me look moronic? A world can open up in rebellion but for all intents and purposes it is still an Imperial world. It is obviously what I meant so read the question, use common sense and learn to interpret information. I am done trying to clarify for incompetent excuses.
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Post by: PhillyT
Furyou Miko wrote:How would a single Marine seize an entire feral world?
Easily.
Pose as an agent of their existing gods. Take their best young warriors away to eternal glory in heaven every year or two.
Your feral world has now become a productive Astartes Recruiting World. Well done.
So in one highly homogeneous world that is feral yet capable of long range communication and obviously willing to connect whatever gods they may have to a power armor wearing giant, there is a chance that a Marine might convince them to offer recruits. Not exactly a seizure and also very limited in scope.
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Post by: Lord Tarkin
pm713 wrote:Groups of angry feral people can kill Space Marines.
Haha no they can't
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Post by: Psienesis
Haha. They did in one of the Gaunt's Ghosts novels.
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Post by: PhillyT
In Tarkin's defense, he appears to be carrying the worst of GW's stated Space Marine fluff to its logical extreme. It has been stated that a single space marine dominate absurdly large areas.
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Post by: Lord Tarkin
PhillyT wrote: Furyou Miko wrote:How would a single Marine seize an entire feral world?
Easily.
Pose as an agent of their existing gods. Take their best young warriors away to eternal glory in heaven every year or two.
Your feral world has now become a productive Astartes Recruiting World. Well done.
So in one highly homogeneous world that is feral yet capable of long range communication and obviously willing to connect whatever gods they may have to a power armor wearing giant, there is a chance that a Marine might convince them to offer recruits. Not exactly a seizure and also very limited in scope.
Ok, nothing is registering.
First of all, I believe the word used was "convert" not sieze.
Second of all, feral people are very close to being cavemen, not quite but close. Educational programs and ecclesiarchy classes will teach them all they need to know about the Imperium and common educational skills such as reading, writing and speaking properly. Then they will either be enlisted by the IG or turned into a SM.
In the case of becomimg a SM aspirant, once they are implanted with geneseed and wake up from the "great sleep" their brains will grow exponentionally and they will never be as dumb as they once were and they can become a scout.
Feral worlds are almost always left close to their current states because the harsh environments recruits come from can prove to be a pro rather than a con for training.
One SM can easily attract recruits from a feral world even so. Automatically Appended Next Post:
What is your definition of feral? I seem to be at a loss.
Please educate me about how club weilding cavemen-adjacent people can possibly kill SM's?
A SM can fight daemons and battle Eldar yet they die to cavemen? That is absurd Automatically Appended Next Post: PhillyT wrote:
In Tarkin's defense, he appears to be carrying the worst of GW's stated Space Marine fluff to its logical extreme. It has been stated that a single space marine dominate absurdly large areas.
Depends. A marine can rape a feral world but wouldnt stand a chance in so much as a civilized world.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
PhillyT wrote: Furyou Miko wrote:How would a single Marine seize an entire feral world?
Easily.
Pose as an agent of their existing gods. Take their best young warriors away to eternal glory in heaven every year or two.
Your feral world has now become a productive Astartes Recruiting World. Well done.
So in one highly homogeneous world that is feral yet capable of long range communication and obviously willing to connect whatever gods they may have to a power armor wearing giant, there is a chance that a Marine might convince them to offer recruits. Not exactly a seizure and also very limited in scope.
No... who said anything about long range communication?
They're ferals. They have no strikeback capability and offer an appropriate tithe compared to their technology/population level. Even if 90% of the planet's population have never heard of the Imperium, as far as the Imperium is concerned, that world has been brought into compliance. It has been conquered by a single Astartes. If they one day refuse to give up an aspirant, then the Marine will kill a few tribesmen and bring the world back into compliance.
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Post by: pm713
Well its in canon so yes they can. Lots of lances do that
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Post by: DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr
 Desubot wrote:Accidentally voted 10. but wanted 100
Id say 100 marines and a few regimens of IG would do the trick.
^^THIS You have done well sir.
I voted 1000 for the poll. The chapter will kill you, but not rule you. Need more for that.
Unless it is a trap setup by the dark eldar to play some games...
That would be a fun game for the DE.... bait an entire chapter to a planet for some reason, and RAPE THEIR SOULS HARD.
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Post by: RileyJessup
I would say about a company of standard codex marines with the proper imperial guard/navy support to establish bases and hold the captured ground maybe less for chapters such as the raven guard or white scars who could use hit and run over a long period of time to destabilize the planets people
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Post by: Inquisitor Bob
I agree with most posters here.. It's too vague a question.. "Seize" to DA is kill the rulers grab what you came to get and leave them to their fate... In which case you could get away with a few squads if that..
Seize to an ultramarine would include injecting your own stabile government.. In which case half their chapter including great chunks of several other sub-chapters of theirs as well as 100s of companies of PDF from Ultramar would be required to finish the occupation within 10 years...
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Post by: StarTrotter
As others have mentioned, it's very vague. For starters, what do we claim is the standard Imperial Planet? Is it a industrial era planet, a modern tech planet and population planet, is it semi-advanced technology. What's the population? What's their best weapons? Does such a planet get their anti-space craft and air guns to be free to fire (which apparently are on quite a few and rather nasty)?
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Post by: Deadshot
1, if the writer makes it so.
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Post by: lilgammer123
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Invasion_of_Nova_Sulis It would probably be kind of like this but not a hive world but it depends on the chapter and defenders. I vote 1,000.
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Post by: Melissia
Define "sieze a planet".
To take and hold a planet, IE, pacify or destroy its population? At least a hundred thousand; this is a time and manpower-demanding job, which Space Marines have never been suited to-- not even in their "glory days" as legions instead of chapters. To destroy a planet's military capacity? A thousand through ten thousand depending on how reliant they are on orbital bombardment and how ready the defenders are. Dismantling a planet's military capacity is a lot of work, but with orbital bombardment, it is a lot less manpower-demanding than the previous situation. To decapitate a planet's leadership and set it up for an Imperial Guard invasion? Ten to a hundred depending on the readiness of the defenders. This is easy to do, and it's the ideal purpose of Space Marine strike forces.
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Post by: Envihon
Furyou Miko wrote:To take and hold an Imperial world?
More than a hundred thousand, assuming no auxiliary forces. For pacification, you need something like one soldier/peacekeeper/face-of-authority for every hundred or so people, assuming they don't want to cause problems.
A more meaningful question would be "How many Marines would you need for ten million Guardsmen to take and hold a planet in a reasonable amount of time."
Which the answer would be "Ten for every day less than a year you want the war to take" or so.
I also agree with this. I think the propaganda of Space Marines by themselves seizing/conquering planets, is just that, propaganda. In most of the "true accounts" of a battle the Imperial Guard are at least hinted to being there and needed for the pacification of any of the planets. The Space Marines always have and need the support of the other Imperial Forces, otherwise those forces wouldn't exist. The exploits of the Space Marines are just heralded more since they are genetically modified super soldiers called in when they are needed the most. Most planets that are conquered usually have Titans in those battles from the Ad Mech. There are aerial bombardments from the Imperial Navy. The Space Marines are specialists used to put pressure on key areas to win a planet.
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Post by: PhillyT
Furyou Miko wrote:PhillyT wrote: Furyou Miko wrote:How would a single Marine seize an entire feral world?
Easily.
Pose as an agent of their existing gods. Take their best young warriors away to eternal glory in heaven every year or two.
Your feral world has now become a productive Astartes Recruiting World. Well done.
So in one highly homogeneous world that is feral yet capable of long range communication and obviously willing to connect whatever gods they may have to a power armor wearing giant, there is a chance that a Marine might convince them to offer recruits. Not exactly a seizure and also very limited in scope.
No... who said anything about long range communication?
They're ferals. They have no strikeback capability and offer an appropriate tithe compared to their technology/population level. Even if 90% of the planet's population have never heard of the Imperium, as far as the Imperium is concerned, that world has been brought into compliance. It has been conquered by a single Astartes. If they one day refuse to give up an aspirant, then the Marine will kill a few tribesmen and bring the world back into compliance.
So we are using very loose and most pointless terms? How would a single marine convert an entire planet into a recruiting world without that planets people being able to spread his message?
The entire idea is ridiculous and ignores human history. And if you aren't basing it off human history, there is nothing to base the thought experiment on in the first place.
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Post by: baxter123
SM are kind of like the Special Forces for the Imperium, they use the tactics of a very quick and bloody war in order to use their strengths to their full advantage. As a wise man once said "We cut the head off, and the rest of the body dies with it".
SM are used to quickly insert into the heart of the enemy and kill their acquired targets and then pull out, letting the Imperial Guard m up the rest of the Resistance.
Not since the Great Crusades have the SM had the full power to ever hold a planet, for a planet is just to large and sprawling for the super humans to hold, and since the GC they have lost so much manpower.
So to the original poster, it would take easily a SM task-force to take battle using their preferred method of fighting, but then they would quickly be re-deployed to the heaviest fighting in order so their strengths would be of use.
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Post by: slade the sniper
I voted for 1,000 SM....with the understanding that there is orbital domination and several million IG ready to exploit those SM tactical victories...
-STS
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Post by: Lord Tarkin
slade the sniper wrote:I voted for 1,000 SM....with the understanding that there is orbital domination and several million IG ready to exploit those SM tactical victories...
- STS
Yes, thank you for being able to interpret the question.
I agree with 1,000 SM's. I'm fairly surprised anybody said 10 but haha oh well
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Post by: TheCustomLime
It is possible with just 10. If the world is of low tech/if they help out a rebel faction/if the planet has a low population.
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Post by: Lord Tarkin
 TheCustomLime wrote:It is possible with just 10. If the world is of low tech/if they help out a rebel faction/if the planet has a low population.
Feral World most likely can be managed with a single squad. This is however a standard Imperial Civilized World. Probably 1,000 marines will be required to instill Imperial rule again Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyone who doesn't know what a civilized world is look it up on warhammer40k.wikia or lexicanum.
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Post by: MajorStoffer
In point of fact on the feral thing, the whole sequence people are referencing in the Ghosts series I always felt to be Abnett's jab at un-helmeted marines. The Chaos Marine in question gets his helmet knocked off, and pummelled with more poison than is reasonable.
On topic, it all depends on Guard support. I just ignore writers who have a single company invade planets; 100 bodies simply can't do enough alone to matter. Hell, with the exception of the Badab War, marines are almost never the primary striking force in a conflict in 40k, at least when written by anyone credible.
They're a force multiplier, and I think their strategic use was best characterized in Forgeworld's Siege of Vraks books. Marines show up, hit critical areas with rapid, unrelenting assault, cripple enemy defences, and the Death Korps takes care of the rest. The more Marines you apply to a warzone, the faster the war is over, but it is predicated on having the Imperial Guard present with sufficient force to capitalize on what Marines do. They're like any current special forces, strategically very useful, and are also idea for important skirmishes over VIPs, key resources, unsanctioned conflicts and so on, but aren't going to conquer anything alone.
This was even true in the Heresy era; the Marines are more of a shock elements in that period, rather than just special forces, but it's been a well-established part of the fluff for a long time that the Imperial Army was key to actually holding anything the Marines took as the Crusade spread further and further from Terra.
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Post by: DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr
 MajorStoffer wrote:In point of fact on the feral thing, the whole sequence people are referencing in the Ghosts series I always felt to be Abnett's jab at un-helmeted marines. The Chaos Marine in question gets his helmet knocked off, and pummelled with more poison than is reasonable.
On topic, it all depends on Guard support. I just ignore writers who have a single company invade planets; 100 bodies simply can't do enough alone to matter. Hell, with the exception of the Badab War, marines are almost never the primary striking force in a conflict in 40k, at least when written by anyone credible.
They're a force multiplier, and I think their strategic use was best characterized in Forgeworld's Siege of Vraks books. Marines show up, hit critical areas with rapid, unrelenting assault, cripple enemy defences, and the Death Korps takes care of the rest. The more Marines you apply to a warzone, the faster the war is over, but it is predicated on having the Imperial Guard present with sufficient force to capitalize on what Marines do. They're like any current special forces, strategically very useful, and are also idea for important skirmishes over VIPs, key resources, unsanctioned conflicts and so on, but aren't going to conquer anything alone.
This was even true in the Heresy era; the Marines are more of a shock elements in that period, rather than just special forces, but it's been a well-established part of the fluff for a long time that the Imperial Army was key to actually holding anything the Marines took as the Crusade spread further and further from Terra.
Pretty much this.
To "seize" a planet, yeah the marines by themselves would have an annoying grinder of a war, and lose some good assets of theirs. A setback for sure.
But to feth gak up? 1000 will do just fine.
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Post by: changerofways
I feel this thread is vague and fruitless
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Post by: Iron_Captain
A hundred to crush major opposition and destabilise a world(destroy leadership and key infrastructure)
A thousand to crush almost all opposition (destroying a world's military)
100.000 to actually conquer and hold, pacify and garrison a world.
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Post by: Redcruisair
Well a lot of that can be attributed to the OP, who has hand waved away many a sensible responses and has three times now made insulting remarks towards people in this thread.
By the way Tarkin, breaking the forum rules is an effective way of getting a thread locked, or a nice ban. So be smart and tone down the bad attitude before something bad happens.
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Post by: Lord Tarkin
 Iron_Captain wrote:A hundred to crush major opposition and destabilise a world(destroy leadership and key infrastructure)
A thousand to crush almost all opposition (destroying a world's military)
100.000 to actually conquer and hold, pacify and garrison a world.
Best response so far. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Redcruisair wrote:
Well a lot of that can be attributed to the OP, who has hand waved away many a sensible responses and has three times now made insulting remarks towards people in this thread.
By the way Tarkin, breaking the forum rules is an effective way of getting a thread locked, or a nice ban. So be smart and tone down the bad attitude before something bad happens.
Maybe if people could be intelligent enough to read a question and provide a debatable response instead of asking a dozen stupid questions in return which have already been asked and answered earlier in the thread.
If anybody doesn't know what "seize" means then they can look it up on google or read a dictionary. Same for a "civilized world," look it up on a warhammer 40k wiki.
Stop being conversationally incompetent and learn something. Automatically Appended Next Post: MajorStoffer wrote:In point of fact on the feral thing, the whole sequence people are referencing in the Ghosts series I always felt to be Abnett's jab at un-helmeted marines. The Chaos Marine in question gets his helmet knocked off, and pummelled with more poison than is reasonable.
On topic, it all depends on Guard support. I just ignore writers who have a single company invade planets; 100 bodies simply can't do enough alone to matter. Hell, with the exception of the Badab War, marines are almost never the primary striking force in a conflict in 40k, at least when written by anyone credible.
They're a force multiplier, and I think their strategic use was best characterized in Forgeworld's Siege of Vraks books. Marines show up, hit critical areas with rapid, unrelenting assault, cripple enemy defences, and the Death Korps takes care of the rest. The more Marines you apply to a warzone, the faster the war is over, but it is predicated on having the Imperial Guard present with sufficient force to capitalize on what Marines do. They're like any current special forces, strategically very useful, and are also idea for important skirmishes over VIPs, key resources, unsanctioned conflicts and so on, but aren't going to conquer anything alone.
This was even true in the Heresy era; the Marines are more of a shock elements in that period, rather than just special forces, but it's been a well-established part of the fluff for a long time that the Imperial Army was key to actually holding anything the Marines took as the Crusade spread further and further from Terra.
As you said SM's are almost never the primary striking. IG are the backbone of the Imperium for a great many reasons. Like I said, this is my first ever poll and I will be sure to be more detailed next time, I am just tired of lazy people asking questions that were already answered earlier in the thread.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
PhillyT wrote:
So we are using very loose and most pointless terms? How would a single marine convert an entire planet into a recruiting world without that planets people being able to spread his message?
The entire idea is ridiculous and ignores human history. And if you aren't basing it off human history, there is nothing to base the thought experiment on in the first place.
*sigh*
You're missing the point. Since I've explained it three times, I'm going to assume that you're trolling and stop bothering.
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Post by: Ultramarine vet
I think its safe to assume that the 1,000 Space Marines would have IG support. With that being said, 1,000 Space Marines would be efficient for the task. A lot of people here seem to be simple-minded, and you have to specify every single detail.
Those of you that don't think 1,000 Space Marines can do it, must think that they have to kill the entire population. They probably won't even have to kill a quarter of the population. Especially if all the leaders are taken out, seizing the planet will be so much easier. A chapter will get it done, I promise.
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Post by: Ignatius
 Ultramarine vet wrote:I think its safe to assume that the 1,000 Space Marines would have IG support. With that being said, 1,000 Space Marines would be efficient for the task. A lot of people here seem to be simple-minded, and you have to specify every single detail.
Those of you that don't think 1,000 Space Marines can do it, must think that they have to kill the entire population. They probably won't even have to kill a quarter of the population. Especially if all the leaders are taken out, seizing the planet will be so much easier. A chapter will get it done, I promise.
1) answering the OP's initial question required a lot of clarification, and to get an answer that is at least someone along the lines of what it would take then you need to take the extra time to get the right information. Measure twice cut once.
2) it's really easy for me to come back and say the exact opposite of what you just said, and I would be just as correct. A chapter won't get it done, I promise.
Now who is correct? Neither of us provided any sort of evidence, so it's impossible to say.
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Post by: Ultramarine vet
 Ignatius wrote: Ultramarine vet wrote:I think its safe to assume that the 1,000 Space Marines would have IG support. With that being said, 1,000 Space Marines would be efficient for the task. A lot of people here seem to be simple-minded, and you have to specify every single detail.
Those of you that don't think 1,000 Space Marines can do it, must think that they have to kill the entire population. They probably won't even have to kill a quarter of the population. Especially if all the leaders are taken out, seizing the planet will be so much easier. A chapter will get it done, I promise.
1) answering the OP's initial question required a lot of clarification, and to get an answer that is at least someone along the lines of what it would take then you need to take the extra time to get the right information. Measure twice cut once.
2) it's really easy for me to come back and say the exact opposite of what you just said, and I would be just as correct. A chapter won't get it done, I promise.
Now who is correct? Neither of us provided any sort of evidence, so it's impossible to say.
Are you seriously telling me a chapter cannot? Are you?
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Post by: Random Dude
It depends on the size and fortification level of the planet. An entire chapter will most likely be able to do the job seeing as one company can defend a planet in black library novels.
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Post by: Ignatius
Ultramarine vet wrote: Ignatius wrote: Ultramarine vet wrote:I think its safe to assume that the 1,000 Space Marines would have IG support. With that being said, 1,000 Space Marines would be efficient for the task. A lot of people here seem to be simple-minded, and you have to specify every single detail.
Those of you that don't think 1,000 Space Marines can do it, must think that they have to kill the entire population. They probably won't even have to kill a quarter of the population. Especially if all the leaders are taken out, seizing the planet will be so much easier. A chapter will get it done, I promise.
1) answering the OP's initial question required a lot of clarification, and to get an answer that is at least someone along the lines of what it would take then you need to take the extra time to get the right information. Measure twice cut once.
2) it's really easy for me to come back and say the exact opposite of what you just said, and I would be just as correct. A chapter won't get it done, I promise.
Now who is correct? Neither of us provided any sort of evidence, so it's impossible to say.
Are you seriously telling me a chapter cannot? Are you?
Yes I absolutely seriously am. I have seen a heck of a lot of breathtakingly destructive weapons, explosives, and machines that our military has in action, and cannot fathom a group of 1,000 soldiers defeating them. I also know that war is a LOT more than just shooting stuff, and I don't think that the marines can possibly form an effective counter with so few soldiers.
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Post by: Lord Tarkin
Ignatius wrote: Ultramarine vet wrote:I think its safe to assume that the 1,000 Space Marines would have IG support. With that being said, 1,000 Space Marines would be efficient for the task. A lot of people here seem to be simple-minded, and you have to specify every single detail.
Those of you that don't think 1,000 Space Marines can do it, must think that they have to kill the entire population. They probably won't even have to kill a quarter of the population. Especially if all the leaders are taken out, seizing the planet will be so much easier. A chapter will get it done, I promise.
1) answering the OP's initial question required a lot of clarification, and to get an answer that is at least someone along the lines of what it would take then you need to take the extra time to get the right information. Measure twice cut once.
2) it's really easy for me to come back and say the exact opposite of what you just said, and I would be just as correct. A chapter won't get it done, I promise.
Now who is correct? Neither of us provided any sort of evidence, so it's impossible to say.
Again, I apologize for the lack of clarification but I don't ask a lot of questions on Dakka and this is my first poll. Either people understand the question and can vote or they don't don't and they skip it.
And to your point, there is never any evidence of much of anything at all in 40k. Most of it is rich debate and hypothetical opinions but nothing can be proven. I mean, I seriously thought there would be no votes at all for 10 marines but there obviously is. I agree with a lot of people on this thread and disagree with others.
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Post by: Ultramarine vet
Ignatius wrote: Ultramarine vet wrote: Ignatius wrote: Ultramarine vet wrote:I think its safe to assume that the 1,000 Space Marines would have IG support. With that being said, 1,000 Space Marines would be efficient for the task. A lot of people here seem to be simple-minded, and you have to specify every single detail.
Those of you that don't think 1,000 Space Marines can do it, must think that they have to kill the entire population. They probably won't even have to kill a quarter of the population. Especially if all the leaders are taken out, seizing the planet will be so much easier. A chapter will get it done, I promise.
1) answering the OP's initial question required a lot of clarification, and to get an answer that is at least someone along the lines of what it would take then you need to take the extra time to get the right information. Measure twice cut once.
2) it's really easy for me to come back and say the exact opposite of what you just said, and I would be just as correct. A chapter won't get it done, I promise.
Now who is correct? Neither of us provided any sort of evidence, so it's impossible to say.
Are you seriously telling me a chapter cannot? Are you?
Yes I absolutely seriously am. I have seen a heck of a lot of breathtakingly destructive weapons, explosives, and machines that our military has in action, and cannot fathom a group of 1,000 soldiers defeating them. I also know that war is a LOT more than just shooting stuff, and I don't think that the marines can possibly form an effective counter with so few soldiers.
I love how you refer to Space Marines as soldiers. Buddy, they are super human killing machines. Demi-gods even. You need to read some more Space Marine novels before coming in here spouting all that nonsense. Also, I will say this again, these 1,000 Space Marines will have IG support. You are thinking they will be all alone. I find that hilarious. Space Marines are not stupid. They will get it done.
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Post by: Ignatius
Lord Tarkin wrote: Ignatius wrote: Ultramarine vet wrote:I think its safe to assume that the 1,000 Space Marines would have IG support. With that being said, 1,000 Space Marines would be efficient for the task. A lot of people here seem to be simple-minded, and you have to specify every single detail.
Those of you that don't think 1,000 Space Marines can do it, must think that they have to kill the entire population. They probably won't even have to kill a quarter of the population. Especially if all the leaders are taken out, seizing the planet will be so much easier. A chapter will get it done, I promise.
1) answering the OP's initial question required a lot of clarification, and to get an answer that is at least someone along the lines of what it would take then you need to take the extra time to get the right information. Measure twice cut once.
2) it's really easy for me to come back and say the exact opposite of what you just said, and I would be just as correct. A chapter won't get it done, I promise.
Now who is correct? Neither of us provided any sort of evidence, so it's impossible to say.
Again, I apologize for the lack of clarification but I don't ask a lot of questions on Dakka and this is my first poll. Either people understand the question and can vote or they don't don't and they skip it.
And to your point, there is never any evidence of much of anything at all in 40k. Most of it is rich debate and hypothetical opinions but nothing can be proven. I mean, I seriously thought there would be no votes at all for 10 marines but there obviously is. I agree with a lot of people on this thread and disagree with others.
Hey no harm no foul. You've sparked a lot of debate with your poll, so I'd call it a success especially as your first one. Next time just a little more patience with answering questions will go a long way. You don't want to alienate people like that, because maybe they have some really good points to make. Again, you answered them so all is good.
And right, the way you read into the fluff has a lot to do with your interpretation of it, as does your experiences in life. I'm a pretty good example, where my military experiences have a huge impact on the way I see and understand things. Whether I'm justified in using that experience as a basis for argument is a whole nother debate however Automatically Appended Next Post: Ultramarine vet wrote: Ignatius wrote: Ultramarine vet wrote: Ignatius wrote: Ultramarine vet wrote:I think its safe to assume that the 1,000 Space Marines would have IG support. With that being said, 1,000 Space Marines would be efficient for the task. A lot of people here seem to be simple-minded, and you have to specify every single detail.
Those of you that don't think 1,000 Space Marines can do it, must think that they have to kill the entire population. They probably won't even have to kill a quarter of the population. Especially if all the leaders are taken out, seizing the planet will be so much easier. A chapter will get it done, I promise.
1) answering the OP's initial question required a lot of clarification, and to get an answer that is at least someone along the lines of what it would take then you need to take the extra time to get the right information. Measure twice cut once.
2) it's really easy for me to come back and say the exact opposite of what you just said, and I would be just as correct. A chapter won't get it done, I promise.
Now who is correct? Neither of us provided any sort of evidence, so it's impossible to say.
Are you seriously telling me a chapter cannot? Are you?
Yes I absolutely seriously am. I have seen a heck of a lot of breathtakingly destructive weapons, explosives, and machines that our military has in action, and cannot fathom a group of 1,000 soldiers defeating them. I also know that war is a LOT more than just shooting stuff, and I don't think that the marines can possibly form an effective counter with so few soldiers.
I love how you refer to Space Marines as soldiers. Buddy, they are super human killing machines. Demi-gods even. You need to read some more Space Marine novels before coming in here spouting all that nonsense. Also, I will say this again, these 1,000 Space Marines will have IG support. You are thinking they will be all alone. I find that hilarious. Space Marines are not stupid. They will get it done.
Buddy they are soldiers. "One engaged in military service". Yup, soldiers. I've read PLENTY of Space Marine books. Why don't you go get some actual experience about what you're talking about? Don't call my thoughts nonsense, you sound dismissive and arrogant.
The question asked how many marine it takes to take a planet. My thoughts don't include Imperial Guard support. I'm sorry you find that funny (no really I am sorry, you seem to have a terrible sense of humor) as there really isn't anything "funny" about that. The military isn't stupid. They will get it done.
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Post by: Lord Tarkin
Ignatius wrote: Lord Tarkin wrote: Ignatius wrote: Ultramarine vet wrote:I think its safe to assume that the 1,000 Space Marines would have IG support. With that being said, 1,000 Space Marines would be efficient for the task. A lot of people here seem to be simple-minded, and you have to specify every single detail.
Those of you that don't think 1,000 Space Marines can do it, must think that they have to kill the entire population. They probably won't even have to kill a quarter of the population. Especially if all the leaders are taken out, seizing the planet will be so much easier. A chapter will get it done, I promise.
1) answering the OP's initial question required a lot of clarification, and to get an answer that is at least someone along the lines of what it would take then you need to take the extra time to get the right information. Measure twice cut once.
2) it's really easy for me to come back and say the exact opposite of what you just said, and I would be just as correct. A chapter won't get it done, I promise.
Now who is correct? Neither of us provided any sort of evidence, so it's impossible to say.
Again, I apologize for the lack of clarification but I don't ask a lot of questions on Dakka and this is my first poll. Either people understand the question and can vote or they don't don't and they skip it.
And to your point, there is never any evidence of much of anything at all in 40k. Most of it is rich debate and hypothetical opinions but nothing can be proven. I mean, I seriously thought there would be no votes at all for 10 marines but there obviously is. I agree with a lot of people on this thread and disagree with others.
Hey no harm no foul. You've sparked a lot of debate with your poll, so I'd call it a success especially as your first one. Next time just a little more patience with answering questions will go a long way. You don't want to alienate people like that, because maybe they have some really good points to make. Again, you answered them so all is good.
And right, the way you read into the fluff has a lot to do with your interpretation of it, as does your experiences in life. I'm a pretty good example, where my military experiences have a huge impact on the way I see and understand things. Whether I'm justified in using that experience as a basis for argument is a whole nother debate however
Eh, my patience runs very low when people ask 3 times in a row whay seize means or how I mean to use the word.
But I guess ...Im gonna have to be a good boy despite the immensity of dissapointment I feel when someone doesn't know what seize means. Terrible poll though as far as clarification on the scenario
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Post by: DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr
Iron_Captain wrote:A hundred to crush major opposition and destabilise a world(destroy leadership and key infrastructure)
A thousand to crush almost all opposition (destroying a world's military)
100.000 to actually conquer and hold, pacify and garrison a world.
WE HAVE A WINNER!
Iron Captain, your post is so god damn good I'm quoting it.
I agree exactly with what he says.
*claps*
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Redcruisair wrote:
Well a lot of that can be attributed to the OP, who has hand waved away many a sensible responses and has three times now made insulting remarks towards people in this thread.
By the way Tarkin, breaking the forum rules is an effective way of getting a thread locked, or a nice ban. So be smart and tone down the bad attitude before something bad happens.
Now THIS guy, needs to calm down and not take words so seriously.
It is a shame that most if not everybody in the world is suspectable to such "dis"ease.
You can easily comprehend such words and yet you succumb to it's design so easily.
Whoever gets mad, gets scared, gets "dis"(comforted) by an outside distraction has lost the round - this person has surrendered to the wills of "chaos"
And the game continues...
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Post by: djones520
I'd say take a look at the Horus Heresy books. They used thousands of Marines with hundreds of thousands of Imperial Army troops to retake well established worlds.
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Post by: Ultramarine vet
Ignatius wrote: Lord Tarkin wrote: Ignatius wrote: Ultramarine vet wrote:I think its safe to assume that the 1,000 Space Marines would have IG support. With that being said, 1,000 Space Marines would be efficient for the task. A lot of people here seem to be simple-minded, and you have to specify every single detail.
Those of you that don't think 1,000 Space Marines can do it, must think that they have to kill the entire population. They probably won't even have to kill a quarter of the population. Especially if all the leaders are taken out, seizing the planet will be so much easier. A chapter will get it done, I promise.
1) answering the OP's initial question required a lot of clarification, and to get an answer that is at least someone along the lines of what it would take then you need to take the extra time to get the right information. Measure twice cut once.
2) it's really easy for me to come back and say the exact opposite of what you just said, and I would be just as correct. A chapter won't get it done, I promise.
Now who is correct? Neither of us provided any sort of evidence, so it's impossible to say.
Again, I apologize for the lack of clarification but I don't ask a lot of questions on Dakka and this is my first poll. Either people understand the question and can vote or they don't don't and they skip it.
And to your point, there is never any evidence of much of anything at all in 40k. Most of it is rich debate and hypothetical opinions but nothing can be proven. I mean, I seriously thought there would be no votes at all for 10 marines but there obviously is. I agree with a lot of people on this thread and disagree with others.
Hey no harm no foul. You've sparked a lot of debate with your poll, so I'd call it a success especially as your first one. Next time just a little more patience with answering questions will go a long way. You don't want to alienate people like that, because maybe they have some really good points to make. Again, you answered them so all is good.
And right, the way you read into the fluff has a lot to do with your interpretation of it, as does your experiences in life. I'm a pretty good example, where my military experiences have a huge impact on the way I see and understand things. Whether I'm justified in using that experience as a basis for argument is a whole nother debate however
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ultramarine vet wrote: Ignatius wrote: Ultramarine vet wrote: Ignatius wrote: Ultramarine vet wrote:I think its safe to assume that the 1,000 Space Marines would have IG support. With that being said, 1,000 Space Marines would be efficient for the task. A lot of people here seem to be simple-minded, and you have to specify every single detail.
Those of you that don't think 1,000 Space Marines can do it, must think that they have to kill the entire population. They probably won't even have to kill a quarter of the population. Especially if all the leaders are taken out, seizing the planet will be so much easier. A chapter will get it done, I promise.
1) answering the OP's initial question required a lot of clarification, and to get an answer that is at least someone along the lines of what it would take then you need to take the extra time to get the right information. Measure twice cut once.
2) it's really easy for me to come back and say the exact opposite of what you just said, and I would be just as correct. A chapter won't get it done, I promise.
Now who is correct? Neither of us provided any sort of evidence, so it's impossible to say.
Are you seriously telling me a chapter cannot? Are you?
Yes I absolutely seriously am. I have seen a heck of a lot of breathtakingly destructive weapons, explosives, and machines that our military has in action, and cannot fathom a group of 1,000 soldiers defeating them. I also know that war is a LOT more than just shooting stuff, and I don't think that the marines can possibly form an effective counter with so few soldiers.
I love how you refer to Space Marines as soldiers. Buddy, they are super human killing machines. Demi-gods even. You need to read some more Space Marine novels before coming in here spouting all that nonsense. Also, I will say this again, these 1,000 Space Marines will have IG support. You are thinking they will be all alone. I find that hilarious. Space Marines are not stupid. They will get it done.
Buddy they are soldiers. "One engaged in military service". Yup, soldiers. I've read PLENTY of Space Marine books. Why don't you go get some actual experience about what you're talking about? Don't call my thoughts nonsense, you sound dismissive and arrogant.
The question asked how many marine it takes to take a planet. My thoughts don't include Imperial Guard support. I'm sorry you find that funny (no really I am sorry, you seem to have a terrible sense of humor) as there really isn't anything "funny" about that. The military isn't stupid. They will get it done.
They are called the Angels of Death, with good reason. They are super humans who live to kill! A full chapter, with IG support is more than enough to seize a planet.
You are very ardent about the military.....this is respectable. But you seem to underestimate the fury of Space Marines.
However, I want to know your opinion. I assume you know just as much about Space Marines, since you've.....read plenty of books on them. You obviously don't think a full chapter can seize a planet. How many Space Marines do you think is needed to seize a planet?
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Post by: djphranq
1,000,000.
999,999 to hold the ladder and 1 to screw in the light bulb.
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Post by: Ultramarine vet
 djphranq wrote:1,000,000.
999,999 to hold the ladder and 1 to screw in the light bulb.
I.....don't even think there is 1,000,000 Space Marines.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
I feel like the banner at the top of the forum should just be replaced with a screen-cap of this post, with a little "DakkaDakka Forums" title in the lower corner.
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Post by: Ignatius
Ultramarine vet wrote: djphranq wrote:1,000,000.
999,999 to hold the ladder and 1 to screw in the light bulb.
I.....don't even think there is 1,000,000 Space Marines.
Yep. There are about 1,000,000 marines in the Imperium at any given time.
As for my opinion, I would say about 100,000. The world is way too big for any fewer to actually be able to hold anything. I get that they are great soldiers-super human killing machines built for war- but there are limits. They are peerless at the part about shooting and killing stuff sure, but as I said before there are a lot more things to war than just killing things. Out of the 16 branches of the US Army for example, only
7 are actually combat arms branches. The rest are only to do with combat support. Not to mention the large amount of civilian contractors that are vital to the combat effectiveness of units.
To flat out say that marines are best because they are strong is ignoring a huge amount of what goes into fighting a war. And in my opinion, an all too important aspect that cannot be looked over.
I have a lot of respect for the Army because I'm in it, and I've seen a lot of the stuff we are talking about (maybe not talking about as much in this thread, but there are some others I've offered a more detailed opinion).
BlaxicanX wrote:
I feel like the banner at the top of the forum should just be replaced with a screen-cap of this post, with a little "DakkaDakka Forums" title in the lower corner.
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Post by: Ultramarine vet
Ignatius wrote:Ultramarine vet wrote: djphranq wrote:1,000,000.
999,999 to hold the ladder and 1 to screw in the light bulb.
I.....don't even think there is 1,000,000 Space Marines.
Yep. There are about 1,000,000 marines in the Imperium at any given time.
As for my opinion, I would say about 100,000. The world is way too big for any fewer to actually be able to hold anything. I get that they are great soldiers-super human killing machines built for war- but there are limits. They are peerless at the part about shooting and killing stuff sure, but as I said before there are a lot more things to war than just killing things. Out of the 16 branches of the US Army for example, only
7 are actually combat arms branches. The rest are only to do with combat support. Not to mention the large amount of civilian contractors that are vital to the combat effectiveness of units.
To flat out say that marines are best because they are strong is ignoring a huge amount of what goes into fighting a war. And in my opinion, an all too important aspect that cannot be looked over.
I have a lot of respect for the Army because I'm in it, and I've seen a lot of the stuff we are talking about (maybe not talking about as much in this thread, but there are some others I've offered a more detailed opinion).
To actually hold the planet, I agree with you. Absolutely. Although Space Marines usually don't hold planets. That is usually left to the PDF. I'm not positive on that part however.
That is my fault for not implying that 1,000 Space Marines would have IG support. I am not that stupid, as to say 1,000 Space Marines can seize a planet ALL on their own. 1,000 marines, with tons of Guardsmen regiments at their disposal, could probably then seize a planet.
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Post by: Mozzyfuzzy
Just 1, if that marine is an Alpha legionnaire
But I'd probably say a company so around the 100ish mark, that'll operate as marines do when they aren't charging headlong across open battlefields, quick surgical strikes against the command structure and large military targets, for me this would be done rather quickly and silently before any alarm spread, as the longer your opponent doesn't know they are fighting the easier it will be.
And of course the PDF will be killed to a man.
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Post by: mitch_rifle
A few thousand marines and maybe 20 odd million guardsmen, increasing or decreasing in number depending on resistance/fighting condition's etc
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Post by: Iron_Captain
djphranq wrote:1,000,000.
999,999 to hold the ladder and 1 to screw in the light bulb.
No, it is 1 Marine to screw in the light bulb and 999,999 Marines to defend him from the other 999,999 Marines who have turned traitor 
I don't exactly remember where I got that joke (was it the SoB joke thread? It probably was) but it really made me laugh.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Ultramarine vet wrote:
They are called the Angels of Death, with good reason. They are super humans who live to kill! A full chapter, with IG support is more than enough to seize a planet.
You are very ardent about the military.....this is respectable. But you seem to underestimate the fury of Space Marines.
Fury is a poor match for numbers. 1000 marines can't cover a whole lot of ground. They just can't *BE* everywhere they'd need to be, and after even moderate casualties would start to feel very pinched indeed. 1000 marines couldn't for example, cordon off a city to prevent an enemy from fleeing, there just aren't enough to cover everywhere. They would be exceedingly vulnerable to encirclement, area effect weapons, and strategic weapons (i.e. nukes, vortex missiles, etc).
Imagine if they got caught in an artillery barrage in their landing zones?
Once again, the Space Marines are really more of a Fantasy-In-Space concept, they fall apart very rapidly when analyzed from any sort of realistic perspective.
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Post by: Furyou Miko
Its amusing that even though its been stated so many times in this thread, there are still people who think that
"Walking death machines that can fight any concievable military force"
means that they have any ability to hold and control.
Space Marines can take ground. Given enough time, a hundred Space Marines could probably destroy every leader and soldier on earth (although it would take them time). However, they could not hold that ground.
Except in my example above of the feral world that is brought into compliance on a technicality (because the people on the planet aren't fighting back), anything more developed (modern to advanced level society) needs numbers of soldiers to keep the population placid. Either that or a tool, such as religion.
One missionary can do the work of ten thousand space marines.
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Post by: Vaktathi
I think the concept that SM's could fight a conventional war against every leader and soldier on earth would be quite ridiculous.
Again 40k is a fantasy universe, not really a scifi one. We have capabilities today that put many things in the 40k universe to shame. We have tanks that can move at 60km/h and hit moving targets 2000 meters away with 95% hit rates with projectiles that can penetrate over a meter of cold rolled steel (and SM armor certainly isn't anything near that tough), and can do it 10 times a minute. We have rocket artillery that can roll off huge numbers of rockets very qucikly onto a target 60 kilometers away and land within 5 meters of the target. We have ~60 year old RPG's that can penetrate 200mm of cold rolled steel. After the SM's landed, unless they were able to take out the hundreds of different bases and military command centers spread throughout dozens of different nations, they'd be destroyed in short order on modern earth.
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Post by: Daba
With BFG, Space Marines are just so Fragile. I mean, a game could pass, and you could just see and go 'Oh, that's the entire Dark Angels chapter gone.'
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Post by: Wyzilla
Furyou Miko wrote:Its amusing that even though its been stated so many times in this thread, there are still people who think that
"Walking death machines that can fight any concievable military force"
means that they have any ability to hold and control.
Space Marines can take ground. Given enough time, a hundred Space Marines could probably destroy every leader and soldier on earth (although it would take them time). However, they could not hold that ground.
Except in my example above of the feral world that is brought into compliance on a technicality (because the people on the planet aren't fighting back), anything more developed (modern to advanced level society) needs numbers of soldiers to keep the population placid. Either that or a tool, such as religion.
One missionary can do the work of ten thousand space marines.
No, they can hold a world. Raze all military forces, publicly kill all leaders to break morale, and sweep through all population centers with kill teams ordered to exterminate. The largest population centers are obliterated as kill-teams continue to scour the surface for survivors while Librarians probe the planet for any remaining human life. Rinse and repeat with kill-teams and orbital bombardment until there's nothing left.
Congratulations, you seized a planet
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Post by: Lord Tarkin
Wyzilla wrote: Furyou Miko wrote:Its amusing that even though its been stated so many times in this thread, there are still people who think that
"Walking death machines that can fight any concievable military force"
means that they have any ability to hold and control.
Space Marines can take ground. Given enough time, a hundred Space Marines could probably destroy every leader and soldier on earth (although it would take them time). However, they could not hold that ground.
Except in my example above of the feral world that is brought into compliance on a technicality (because the people on the planet aren't fighting back), anything more developed (modern to advanced level society) needs numbers of soldiers to keep the population placid. Either that or a tool, such as religion.
One missionary can do the work of ten thousand space marines.
No, they can hold a world. Raze all military forces, publicly kill all leaders to break morale, and sweep through all population centers with kill teams ordered to exterminate. The largest population centers are obliterated as kill-teams continue to scour the surface for survivors while Librarians probe the planet for any remaining human life. Rinse and repeat with kill-teams and orbital bombardment until there's nothing left.
Congratulations, you seized a planet
*shrugs* would take 10 or 15 years but yeah
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Post by: Vaktathi
So, how are they supposed to go about razing all military forces? Especially with such limited numbers? They couldn't be in enough places to matter. 100 space marines attacking you? Leave rearguard force, retreat a couple kilometers, rain mortars (which *have* been shown to kill space marines) and artillery on the SM's, and repeat. 100 marines certainly can't cover enough ground to block a retreat, much less do so while attacking.
Or, oh snap, they've got a couple of hundred tanks? Well, good luck Marines against that.
This is all to say nothing of the fact that, aside from Scouts trying to physically scout everything out (and it's not like there's a lot of them, nor are they as unequalled in stealth as normal SM's are in battle capabilities), the SM's have basically zero intelligence gathering methods short of capture and interrogation (which in real life delivers incredibly inconsistent information). They wouldn't know where their enemy would be in most instances.
That's not even getting into logistical issues, Emperor help them if their orbital supplies run out.
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Post by: Lord Tarkin
Like I have said, 98,000 human soldiers will die to a SM chapter, as I have calculated.
Regular SM = 100 dead soldiers
Sergeant = 150 dead soldiers
Scout = 20 dead soldiers (calculated with the sum of 100 scouts)
Captain = 200 dead soldiers
Now think about how many humans would be able to fight on a standard civilized world. Probably 8 billion inhabitants but lets say there are 25 million trained soldiers.
SM's attack the most vital and strategic enemy positions so those 98,000 dead humans will be the result of those destroyed positons (enemy command sructures, heretical religious leaders, weapon depots, communications arrays, ect.)
But this is pretty much all they can do. They are superhuman but they cannot kill 25 million armed and trained soldiers.
This is where the IG come into play. If a dozen regiments of IG are present they can do battle with the enemy military and after the SM's complete what I explained above then the enemy will probably just surrender in a matter of a few years.
The IG are the powerful kick in the enemy gut while the SM's are the surprise right hook to the face.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Lord Tarkin wrote:Like I have said, 98,000 human soldiers will die to a SM chapter, as I have calculated.
Regular SM = 100
Sergeant = 150
Scout = 20 (calculated with the sum of 100 scouts)
Captain = 200
What do these numbers mean exactly? How much each is worth in normal human troops?
That's fairly arbitrary. Rogal Dorn himself estimated only 10:1, not 100:1. That said, even then, lets use these numbers (and not yet get into how it's not soldier-on-soldier contact is what causes most casualties, but artillery and crew served weapons).
Now think about how many humans would be able to fight on a standard civilized world. Probably 8 billion inhabitants but lets say there are 25 million trained soldiers.
Probably a good estimation.
SM's attack the most vital and strategic enemy positions so those 98,000 dead humans will be the result of those destroyed positons (enemy command sructures, heretical religious leaders, weapon depots, communications arrays, ect.)
How do they know what are the most vital and strategic positions, and how do they know where they are? Also, why are they so apparently vulnerable to immediate attack? Do none of them have anti-orbital defenses, fortified positions, detection and alarm systems, ready-5 fighters, etc?
This is where the IG come into play. If a dozen regiments of IG are present they can do battle with the enemy military and after the SM's complete what I explained above then the enemy will probably just surrender in a matter of a few years.
Right, but that's not just the SM's doing it themselves, but yes would be a far more realistic battle plan.
That said, as often happens with the SM's, the numbers of IG needed would need to be larger as well ( GW also historically has had hilariously small numbers of IG for supposedly humongous battles until the last couple of editions when they finally realized their numbers were bunk). An average IG regiment is 5-10 thousand men strong, lets say a dozen regiments gets you 100,000 dudes, that's still not going to match 25 million. Normally an attacker will want a 3-1 advantage to ensure victory, but even assuming we're gonna do this with the attackers outnumbered 2-1, you'd need an average of nearly 1,600 IG regiments instead of a more ideal ~9,300 regiments.
GW often isn't very good with numbers in general
84713
Post by: Lord Tarkin
Vaktathi wrote: Lord Tarkin wrote:Like I have said, 98,000 human soldiers will die to a SM chapter, as I have calculated.
Regular SM = 100
Sergeant = 150
Scout = 20 (calculated with the sum of 100 scouts)
Captain = 200
What do these numbers mean exactly? How much each is worth in normal human troops?
That's fairly arbitrary. Rogal Dorn himself estimated only 10:1, not 100:1. That said, even then, lets use these numbers (and not yet get into how it's not soldier-on-soldier contact is what causes most casualties, but artillery and crew served weapons).
Now think about how many humans would be able to fight on a standard civilized world. Probably 8 billion inhabitants but lets say there are 25 million trained soldiers.
Probably a good estimation.
SM's attack the most vital and strategic enemy positions so those 98,000 dead humans will be the result of those destroyed positons (enemy command sructures, heretical religious leaders, weapon depots, communications arrays, ect.)
How do they know what are the most vital and strategic positions, and how do they know where they are? Also, why are they so apparently vulnerable to immediate attack? Do none of them have anti-orbital defenses, fortified positions, detection and alarm systems, ready-5 fighters, etc?
This is where the IG come into play. If a dozen regiments of IG are present they can do battle with the enemy military and after the SM's complete what I explained above then the enemy will probably just surrender in a matter of a few years.
Right, but that's not just the SM's doing it themselves, but yes would be a far more realistic battle plan.
That said, as often happens with the SM's, the numbers of IG needed would need to be larger as well ( GW also historically has had hilariously small numbers of IG for supposedly humongous battles until the last couple of editions when they finally realized their numbers were bunk). An average IG regiment is 5-10 thousand men strong, lets say a dozen regiments gets you 100,000 dudes, that's still not going to match 25 million. Normally an attacker will want a 3-1 advantage to ensure victory, but even assuming we're gonna do this with the attackers outnumbered 2-1, you'd need an average of nearly 1,600 IG regiments instead of a more ideal ~9,300 regiments.
GW often isn't very good with numbers in general
Well, the SM's wouldn 't know where all the strategic positions are at first. They need to execute probe strikes and experiment with the enemy for a a year or two. The IG will probably be responsible for that all that stuff, with trained IG generals and commanders relaying battlefield knowledge.
Annnnd, perhaps you are right, I forgot about that. Lets say 30 million IG troops, and that is the absolute least for planetary invasion. I would be safe with 50 million but 30 is the least.
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
Rogal Dorn estimating 10:1 is a very overvalued quote. I doubt that the quote was the result of an organised research, rather, it just seems to be an arbitrary number to indicate their superior quality. I'd even argue SM were much less effective during the great crusade. They are best at focused strikes, spamming them everywhere incurs diminishing returns.
46864
Post by: Deadshot
Space Marines strike forces hit like a hurricane. They smash through enemy defences before the guards can get out of bed. They are led by the bravest heroes humanity has ever known, with tactics that our tiny human minds couldn't comprehend the designs. Each Astartes cares naught for his own survival, only duty, and with his genetic and armour enhancements, can stride through weapons fire that would rip a mortal man in half, without breaking courage nor formation. They can carry weapons into battle a human could not budge, they are stronger, faster, tougher, smarter. They can tear a man apart with one hand. Their swords don't just kill their enemies, they shred them apart and fling the pieces and blood on their fellows. Led by Astartes who can fry a battle tank with a thought, or grim, skullmasked Chaplains, who don't fight in silence, but roar out their hate, their devotion, their feats, their courage. Whose weapons are thrice the calibre of yours, armour harder than diamond. They fight with a skill and speed you can't match. Their tanks can bring down buildings in a single shot. Their transports can withstand almost any firepower, disgorging a squad of Terminators. Even more invulnerable, heavier weaponry, than regular Marines. Striking like a thunderclap from orbit in the middle of your encampment/city/fortress.
Ideally, the strike force will have broken the garrison, either morale or militarily, and moved on to the next objective within 30mins tops. They get picked up by Thunderhawk, laden with weaponry again, several Heavy Bolters (twice your largest MG calibre in wide use [.50]), fething Las(er)cannons, WMD cannons (Turbo Laser). They show no fear, no remorse, no pity for you as their foe. They are called the Angels of Death. They have been designed by a God-Emperor, genetically engineered to be the ultimate soldier, and they are knocking at your front door, asking for your surrender or your head.
Would YOU stand against them?
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
Since when are bolters only thrice the caliber of IG weapons?
Their shells are 'fist-sized' as far as I have read, which is a damn sight more than 0,75.
79194
Post by: Co'tor Shas
Bolters are 0.50 calbre, I'm not sure about heavy, probably 0.75 or 1.0. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Deadshot wrote:Space Marines strike forces hit like a hurricane. They smash through enemy defences before the guards can get out of bed. They are led by the bravest heroes humanity has ever known, with tactics that our tiny human minds couldn't comprehend the designs. Each Astartes cares naught for his own survival, only duty, and with his genetic and armour enhancements, can stride through weapons fire that would rip a mortal man in half, without breaking courage nor formation. They can carry weapons into battle a human could not budge, they are stronger, faster, tougher, smarter. They can tear a man apart with one hand. Their swords don't just kill their enemies, they shred them apart and fling the pieces and blood on their fellows. Led by Astartes who can fry a battle tank with a thought, or grim, skullmasked Chaplains, who don't fight in silence, but roar out their hate, their devotion, their feats, their courage. Whose weapons are thrice the calibre of yours, armour harder than diamond. They fight with a skill and speed you can't match. Their tanks can bring down buildings in a single shot. Their transports can withstand almost any firepower, disgorging a squad of Terminators. Even more invulnerable, heavier weaponry, than regular Marines. Striking like a thunderclap from orbit in the middle of your encampment/city/fortress.
Ideally, the strike force will have broken the garrison, either morale or militarily, and moved on to the next objective within 30mins tops. They get picked up by Thunderhawk, laden with weaponry again, several Heavy Bolters (twice your largest MG calibre in wide use [.50]), fething Las(er)cannons, WMD cannons (Turbo Laser). They show no fear, no remorse, no pity for you as their foe. They are called the Angels of Death. They have been designed by a God-Emperor, genetically engineered to be the ultimate soldier, and they are knocking at your front door, asking for your surrender or your head.
Would YOU stand against them?
Yes, just a few miles away .
84713
Post by: Lord Tarkin
Ashiraya wrote:Since when are bolters only thrice the caliber of IG weapons?
Their shells are 'fist-sized' as far as I have read, which is a damn sight more than 0,75.
Any human hit in the chest by a boltgun doesn't have a chest anymore haha
Heavy bolter rounds are actually fist sized but regular boltguns aren't really that much smaller. I mean, not to many humans can survive a single bolt round. A human inside of one of the HH heresy books I read was hit in the leg and lost it. He died of shock right when he hit the ground.
79194
Post by: Co'tor Shas
The thing about bolters is, it's not the size of the projectile, it's the fact that it explodes.
84713
Post by: Lord Tarkin
 Co'tor Shas wrote:The thing about bolters is, it's not the size of the projectile, it's the fact that it explodes.
Exactly, exactly.
46864
Post by: Deadshot
Co'tor Shas wrote:Bolters are 0.50 calbre, I'm not sure about heavy, probably 0.75 or 1.0.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Deadshot wrote:Space Marines strike forces hit like a hurricane. They smash through enemy defences before the guards can get out of bed. They are led by the bravest heroes humanity has ever known, with tactics that our tiny human minds couldn't comprehend the designs. Each Astartes cares naught for his own survival, only duty, and with his genetic and armour enhancements, can stride through weapons fire that would rip a mortal man in half, without breaking courage nor formation. They can carry weapons into battle a human could not budge, they are stronger, faster, tougher, smarter. They can tear a man apart with one hand. Their swords don't just kill their enemies, they shred them apart and fling the pieces and blood on their fellows. Led by Astartes who can fry a battle tank with a thought, or grim, skullmasked Chaplains, who don't fight in silence, but roar out their hate, their devotion, their feats, their courage. Whose weapons are thrice the calibre of yours, armour harder than diamond. They fight with a skill and speed you can't match. Their tanks can bring down buildings in a single shot. Their transports can withstand almost any firepower, disgorging a squad of Terminators. Even more invulnerable, heavier weaponry, than regular Marines. Striking like a thunderclap from orbit in the middle of your encampment/city/fortress.
Ideally, the strike force will have broken the garrison, either morale or militarily, and moved on to the next objective within 30mins tops. They get picked up by Thunderhawk, laden with weaponry again, several Heavy Bolters (twice your largest MG calibre in wide use [.50]), fething Las(er)cannons, WMD cannons (Turbo Laser). They show no fear, no remorse, no pity for you as their foe. They are called the Angels of Death. They have been designed by a God-Emperor, genetically engineered to be the ultimate soldier, and they are knocking at your front door, asking for your surrender or your head.
Would YOU stand against them?
Yes, just a few miles away .
Read it again. They fight on their terms. They use Drop Pods and Thunderhawk to deploy where they want, when they want. They strike when they want, where they want. Their tactics so advanced that it would boggle your tiny little human mind trying to concieve such an idea. You don't get to stand a mile away. They land next to you and put their fist through you.
Btw, the "tiny human mind" part isn't a personal insult. It applies to all humans, myself included. Their tactics are just too much for a lesser mind than an Astartes can grasp. Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Bolters are 0.75cal, HB are 1.00
79194
Post by: Co'tor Shas
Deadshot wrote: Co'tor Shas wrote:Bolters are 0.50 calbre, I'm not sure about heavy, probably 0.75 or 1.0.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Deadshot wrote:Space Marines strike forces hit like a hurricane. They smash through enemy defences before the guards can get out of bed. They are led by the bravest heroes humanity has ever known, with tactics that our tiny human minds couldn't comprehend the designs. Each Astartes cares naught for his own survival, only duty, and with his genetic and armour enhancements, can stride through weapons fire that would rip a mortal man in half, without breaking courage nor formation. They can carry weapons into battle a human could not budge, they are stronger, faster, tougher, smarter. They can tear a man apart with one hand. Their swords don't just kill their enemies, they shred them apart and fling the pieces and blood on their fellows. Led by Astartes who can fry a battle tank with a thought, or grim, skullmasked Chaplains, who don't fight in silence, but roar out their hate, their devotion, their feats, their courage. Whose weapons are thrice the calibre of yours, armour harder than diamond. They fight with a skill and speed you can't match. Their tanks can bring down buildings in a single shot. Their transports can withstand almost any firepower, disgorging a squad of Terminators. Even more invulnerable, heavier weaponry, than regular Marines. Striking like a thunderclap from orbit in the middle of your encampment/city/fortress.
Ideally, the strike force will have broken the garrison, either morale or militarily, and moved on to the next objective within 30mins tops. They get picked up by Thunderhawk, laden with weaponry again, several Heavy Bolters (twice your largest MG calibre in wide use [.50]), fething Las(er)cannons, WMD cannons (Turbo Laser). They show no fear, no remorse, no pity for you as their foe. They are called the Angels of Death. They have been designed by a God-Emperor, genetically engineered to be the ultimate soldier, and they are knocking at your front door, asking for your surrender or your head.
Would YOU stand against them?
Yes, just a few miles away .
Read it again. They fight on their terms. They use Drop Pods and Thunderhawk to deploy where they want, when they want. They strike when they want, where they want. Their tactics so advanced that it would boggle your tiny little human mind trying to concieve such an idea. You don't get to stand a mile away. They land next to you and put their fist through you.
Btw, the "tiny human mind" part isn't a personal insult. It applies to all humans, myself included. Their tactics are just too much for a lesser mind than an Astartes can grasp.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Bolters are 0.75cal, HB are 1.00
First, the reply was a joke (as noted by the " "). And second, their tactics are not that advanced. It's just fast strikes and hit-and-run mostly.
78353
Post by: Wyzilla
Co'tor Shas wrote:Bolters are 0.50 calbre, I'm not sure about heavy, probably 0.75 or 1.0.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Deadshot wrote:Space Marines strike forces hit like a hurricane. They smash through enemy defences before the guards can get out of bed. They are led by the bravest heroes humanity has ever known, with tactics that our tiny human minds couldn't comprehend the designs. Each Astartes cares naught for his own survival, only duty, and with his genetic and armour enhancements, can stride through weapons fire that would rip a mortal man in half, without breaking courage nor formation. They can carry weapons into battle a human could not budge, they are stronger, faster, tougher, smarter. They can tear a man apart with one hand. Their swords don't just kill their enemies, they shred them apart and fling the pieces and blood on their fellows. Led by Astartes who can fry a battle tank with a thought, or grim, skullmasked Chaplains, who don't fight in silence, but roar out their hate, their devotion, their feats, their courage. Whose weapons are thrice the calibre of yours, armour harder than diamond. They fight with a skill and speed you can't match. Their tanks can bring down buildings in a single shot. Their transports can withstand almost any firepower, disgorging a squad of Terminators. Even more invulnerable, heavier weaponry, than regular Marines. Striking like a thunderclap from orbit in the middle of your encampment/city/fortress.
Ideally, the strike force will have broken the garrison, either morale or militarily, and moved on to the next objective within 30mins tops. They get picked up by Thunderhawk, laden with weaponry again, several Heavy Bolters (twice your largest MG calibre in wide use [.50]), fething Las(er)cannons, WMD cannons (Turbo Laser). They show no fear, no remorse, no pity for you as their foe. They are called the Angels of Death. They have been designed by a God-Emperor, genetically engineered to be the ultimate soldier, and they are knocking at your front door, asking for your surrender or your head.
Would YOU stand against them?
Yes, just a few miles away .
What rock have you been living under? Bolters are .75 caliber standard. Heavy Bolters fire 1.00 caliber rounds.
79194
Post by: Co'tor Shas
Wyzilla wrote: Co'tor Shas wrote:Bolters are 0.50 calbre, I'm not sure about heavy, probably 0.75 or 1.0.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Deadshot wrote:Space Marines strike forces hit like a hurricane. They smash through enemy defences before the guards can get out of bed. They are led by the bravest heroes humanity has ever known, with tactics that our tiny human minds couldn't comprehend the designs. Each Astartes cares naught for his own survival, only duty, and with his genetic and armour enhancements, can stride through weapons fire that would rip a mortal man in half, without breaking courage nor formation. They can carry weapons into battle a human could not budge, they are stronger, faster, tougher, smarter. They can tear a man apart with one hand. Their swords don't just kill their enemies, they shred them apart and fling the pieces and blood on their fellows. Led by Astartes who can fry a battle tank with a thought, or grim, skullmasked Chaplains, who don't fight in silence, but roar out their hate, their devotion, their feats, their courage. Whose weapons are thrice the calibre of yours, armour harder than diamond. They fight with a skill and speed you can't match. Their tanks can bring down buildings in a single shot. Their transports can withstand almost any firepower, disgorging a squad of Terminators. Even more invulnerable, heavier weaponry, than regular Marines. Striking like a thunderclap from orbit in the middle of your encampment/city/fortress.
Ideally, the strike force will have broken the garrison, either morale or militarily, and moved on to the next objective within 30mins tops. They get picked up by Thunderhawk, laden with weaponry again, several Heavy Bolters (twice your largest MG calibre in wide use [.50]), fething Las(er)cannons, WMD cannons (Turbo Laser). They show no fear, no remorse, no pity for you as their foe. They are called the Angels of Death. They have been designed by a God-Emperor, genetically engineered to be the ultimate soldier, and they are knocking at your front door, asking for your surrender or your head.
Would YOU stand against them?
Yes, just a few miles away .
What rock have you been living under? Bolters are .75 caliber standard. Heavy Bolters fire 1.00 caliber rounds.
No need to be rude. I mis-remembered. It happens to everybody.
78353
Post by: Wyzilla
Co'tor Shas wrote: Wyzilla wrote: Co'tor Shas wrote:Bolters are 0.50 calbre, I'm not sure about heavy, probably 0.75 or 1.0. Automatically Appended Next Post: Deadshot wrote:Space Marines strike forces hit like a hurricane. They smash through enemy defences before the guards can get out of bed. They are led by the bravest heroes humanity has ever known, with tactics that our tiny human minds couldn't comprehend the designs. Each Astartes cares naught for his own survival, only duty, and with his genetic and armour enhancements, can stride through weapons fire that would rip a mortal man in half, without breaking courage nor formation. They can carry weapons into battle a human could not budge, they are stronger, faster, tougher, smarter. They can tear a man apart with one hand. Their swords don't just kill their enemies, they shred them apart and fling the pieces and blood on their fellows. Led by Astartes who can fry a battle tank with a thought, or grim, skullmasked Chaplains, who don't fight in silence, but roar out their hate, their devotion, their feats, their courage. Whose weapons are thrice the calibre of yours, armour harder than diamond. They fight with a skill and speed you can't match. Their tanks can bring down buildings in a single shot. Their transports can withstand almost any firepower, disgorging a squad of Terminators. Even more invulnerable, heavier weaponry, than regular Marines. Striking like a thunderclap from orbit in the middle of your encampment/city/fortress. Ideally, the strike force will have broken the garrison, either morale or militarily, and moved on to the next objective within 30mins tops. They get picked up by Thunderhawk, laden with weaponry again, several Heavy Bolters (twice your largest MG calibre in wide use [.50]), fething Las(er)cannons, WMD cannons (Turbo Laser). They show no fear, no remorse, no pity for you as their foe. They are called the Angels of Death. They have been designed by a God-Emperor, genetically engineered to be the ultimate soldier, and they are knocking at your front door, asking for your surrender or your head. Would YOU stand against them?
Yes, just a few miles away .
What rock have you been living under? Bolters are .75 caliber standard. Heavy Bolters fire 1.00 caliber rounds.
No need to be rude. I mis-remembered. It happens to everybody.
I know, but .75 bolts are mentioned so often in the fluff, FFG stuff, and Lexicanum that it's almost ham-fisted. Forgetfulness induced by information overload?
79194
Post by: Co'tor Shas
No, forgetfulness induced by forgetfulness. And possibly lack of sleep.
46864
Post by: Deadshot
Co'tor Shas wrote: Deadshot wrote: Co'tor Shas wrote:Bolters are 0.50 calbre, I'm not sure about heavy, probably 0.75 or 1.0.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Deadshot wrote:Space Marines strike forces hit like a hurricane. They smash through enemy defences before the guards can get out of bed. They are led by the bravest heroes humanity has ever known, with tactics that our tiny human minds couldn't comprehend the designs. Each Astartes cares naught for his own survival, only duty, and with his genetic and armour enhancements, can stride through weapons fire that would rip a mortal man in half, without breaking courage nor formation. They can carry weapons into battle a human could not budge, they are stronger, faster, tougher, smarter. They can tear a man apart with one hand. Their swords don't just kill their enemies, they shred them apart and fling the pieces and blood on their fellows. Led by Astartes who can fry a battle tank with a thought, or grim, skullmasked Chaplains, who don't fight in silence, but roar out their hate, their devotion, their feats, their courage. Whose weapons are thrice the calibre of yours, armour harder than diamond. They fight with a skill and speed you can't match. Their tanks can bring down buildings in a single shot. Their transports can withstand almost any firepower, disgorging a squad of Terminators. Even more invulnerable, heavier weaponry, than regular Marines. Striking like a thunderclap from orbit in the middle of your encampment/city/fortress.
Ideally, the strike force will have broken the garrison, either morale or militarily, and moved on to the next objective within 30mins tops. They get picked up by Thunderhawk, laden with weaponry again, several Heavy Bolters (twice your largest MG calibre in wide use [.50]), fething Las(er)cannons, WMD cannons (Turbo Laser). They show no fear, no remorse, no pity for you as their foe. They are called the Angels of Death. They have been designed by a God-Emperor, genetically engineered to be the ultimate soldier, and they are knocking at your front door, asking for your surrender or your head.
Would YOU stand against them?
Yes, just a few miles away .
Read it again. They fight on their terms. They use Drop Pods and Thunderhawk to deploy where they want, when they want. They strike when they want, where they want. Their tactics so advanced that it would boggle your tiny little human mind trying to concieve such an idea. You don't get to stand a mile away. They land next to you and put their fist through you.
Btw, the "tiny human mind" part isn't a personal insult. It applies to all humans, myself included. Their tactics are just too much for a lesser mind than an Astartes can grasp.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Bolters are 0.75cal, HB are 1.00
First, the reply was a joke (as noted by the " "). And second, their tactics are not that advanced. It's just fast strikes and hit-and-run mostly.
Sorry about that man. I'm really sorry, just having a real bad time of it tonight. Bad moods and Dakka don't go well together.
Anyway, hopefully I can remain in a good enough humour to not get a ban or something.
Yes, at a basic level, lightning strikes and hit and run. But that's just a general idea. The intricacies of the plan go far beyond that. The fluff constantly references their tactical skill (some more than others *coughSmurfscough*). The Captain knows each warrior personally. They are brothers, and he must, as a requirement for Captaincy ass laid out by the Codex Astartes, be able to use each and each warrior, tank and bullet in his strike force like an extension of his own being. His tactical acumen can be nothing short of genius. And think of some of the Chapter Masters like Dante or Calgar, who's skill at such things is almost unrivaled in the Imperium.
63003
Post by: pelicaniforce
"Strategic positions," great. Have you ever thought about what a military is for?
Say there are a group of savages, and one day they start sowing fields of grains, setting up breweries and granaries, and building houses. They start to specialize their vocations, and build blacksmiths, carpenters and extractive industries. They like these things so much and invest so much time in them that they create corps of armed men to make sure no mischief comes to their fields and breweries and mines and places of devotion and recreation.
Space marines do not care about "strategic locations" or "leadership structures." The entire point of marines is that you don't need very many of them. When the troops of opposing armies are evenly matched, they have to care about "strategic locations" because it is hard to move 100k of troops in to do anything to a city. When you are space marines, you can destroy the basic structures of a society. When soldiers don't have boots, they can't march, when they don't have food they go home to take care of their families, and when their families do not have food they take to the woods and then they don't have a society anymore, they are just vagrants with no temples, no halls of governance, no factories or training yards.
6772
Post by: Vaktathi
Ashiraya wrote:Since when are bolters only thrice the caliber of IG weapons?
Their shells are 'fist-sized' as far as I have read, which is a damn sight more than 0,75.
Wat? Methinks not.
My fist is a little over 4" wide, nearly 5" if you include the thumb. Pretty standard for an average human male. Want to know what kind of weapons have a projectile between 4" and 5" wide?
this, this, and this . If you're feeling old school, maybe something like this. Even these aren't quite 4" across.
No, 0.75 caliber has been pretty standard since...basically forever, with Heavy Bolters IIRC being 1.0 caliber (~25-26mm) weapons. They're certainly not fist sized projectiles. At that point it's no longer an anti-personnel weapon, and the ability to carry a sufficient amount of ammunition would be very limited indeed (as would magazine sizes).
Deadshot wrote:Space Marines strike forces hit like a hurricane. They smash through enemy defences before the guards can get out of bed. They are led by the bravest heroes humanity has ever known, with tactics that our tiny human minds couldn't comprehend the designs. Each Astartes cares naught for his own survival, only duty, and with his genetic and armour enhancements, can stride through weapons fire that would rip a mortal man in half, without breaking courage nor formation. They can carry weapons into battle a human could not budge, they are stronger, faster, tougher, smarter. They can tear a man apart with one hand. Their swords don't just kill their enemies, they shred them apart and fling the pieces and blood on their fellows. Led by Astartes who can fry a battle tank with a thought, or grim, skullmasked Chaplains, who don't fight in silence, but roar out their hate, their devotion, their feats, their courage. Whose weapons are thrice the calibre of yours, armour harder than diamond. They fight with a skill and speed you can't match. Their tanks can bring down buildings in a single shot. Their transports can withstand almost any firepower, disgorging a squad of Terminators. Even more invulnerable, heavier weaponry, than regular Marines. Striking like a thunderclap from orbit in the middle of your encampment/city/fortress.
Ideally, the strike force will have broken the garrison, either morale or militarily, and moved on to the next objective within 30mins tops. They get picked up by Thunderhawk, laden with weaponry again, several Heavy Bolters (twice your largest MG calibre in wide use [.50]), fething Las(er)cannons, WMD cannons (Turbo Laser). They show no fear, no remorse, no pity for you as their foe. They are called the Angels of Death. They have been designed by a God-Emperor, genetically engineered to be the ultimate soldier, and they are knocking at your front door, asking for your surrender or your head.
Would YOU stand against them?
There's a lot of scary sounding words there, but relatively little in the way of concrete specifics, and not all of that is unique to them (e.g. their tanks are actually largely fairly weeny relative to those used by IG and PDF forces....)
And what happens when they're faced with an enemy that has a half-way effective anti-aircraft system and any sort of air fleet of their own, can bring down artillery on their landing zones, and that doesn't have a simple, easy to find command center that's so vital nothing else can operate without it?
I wouldn't want to have to fight them at close quarters, but as an enemy commander, I'd take my chances.
Deadshot wrote:
Read it again. They fight on their terms. They use Drop Pods and Thunderhawk to deploy where they want, when they want.
Assuming they know where the enemy is, that the enemy lacks anti-aircraft and anti-orbital defenses, etc. Otherwise that sorta goes *poof*.
A great example is the Citadel of Vraks. The Space Marines wouldn't touch it, no appeal to aid to the Astartes was answered until battle had already been joined and the Imperial Guard had had siege lines engaged for years. And even then, when the Dark Angels showed up, they didn't go anywhere near the Citadel or the main battle lines, they came in, smashed the spaceport, with nearly a fifth of the chapter dying and more wounded, and left. It wasn't until much later that significant SM forces arrived and after the vast majority of the defensive lines had been broken.
They strike when they want, where they want.
Provided they somehow magically know where an opponents weak/vital areas are, and that they lack anti-orbital and anti-aircraft systems or any way to retaliate against a landing zone (e.g. with artillery).
Their tactics so advanced that it would boggle your tiny little human mind trying to concieve such an idea.
I've been pretty able to comprehend every battle I've ever read that described any sort of Space Marine presence. Most of it involves kicking the front door down (literally or figuratively), yelling "For the Emperor!", and shooting stuff at close ranges.
You don't get to stand a mile away. They land next to you and put their fist through you.
Again, provided the above...
Btw, the "tiny human mind" part isn't a personal insult. It applies to all humans, myself included. Their tactics are just too much for a lesser mind than an Astartes can grasp.
Care to share an example of such battle tactics?
50541
Post by: Ashiraya
Vaktathi wrote: Ashiraya wrote:Since when are bolters only thrice the caliber of IG weapons?
Their shells are 'fist-sized' as far as I have read, which is a damn sight more than 0,75.
Wat? Methinks not.
My fist is a little over 4" wide, nearly 5" if you include the thumb. Pretty standard for an average human male. Want to know what kind of weapons have a projectile between 4" and 5" wide?
this, this, and this . If you're feeling old school, maybe something like this. Even these aren't quite 4" across.
No, 0.75 caliber has been pretty standard since...basically forever, with Heavy Bolters IIRC being 1.0 caliber (~25-26mm) weapons. They're certainly not fist sized projectiles. At that point it's no longer an anti-personnel weapon, and the ability to carry a sufficient amount of ammunition would be very limited indeed (as would magazine sizes).
Pg.21 Deus Encarmine wrote:“His gun clattered, the barrel spitting hot as rounds big as fists tore into the foe.”
:|
It won't allow the Marine to carry unlimited shells, sure, but depending on which size interpretation of Marines you choose, they can very well carry enough for a protracted engagement- especially since rounds of that caliber will be one-shot kills, if not one-shot-multi-kills.
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Post by: Wyzilla
Ashiraya wrote: Vaktathi wrote: Ashiraya wrote:Since when are bolters only thrice the caliber of IG weapons?
Their shells are 'fist-sized' as far as I have read, which is a damn sight more than 0,75.
Wat? Methinks not.
My fist is a little over 4" wide, nearly 5" if you include the thumb. Pretty standard for an average human male. Want to know what kind of weapons have a projectile between 4" and 5" wide?
this, this, and this . If you're feeling old school, maybe something like this. Even these aren't quite 4" across.
No, 0.75 caliber has been pretty standard since...basically forever, with Heavy Bolters IIRC being 1.0 caliber (~25-26mm) weapons. They're certainly not fist sized projectiles. At that point it's no longer an anti-personnel weapon, and the ability to carry a sufficient amount of ammunition would be very limited indeed (as would magazine sizes).
Pg.21 Deus Encarmine wrote:“His gun clattered, the barrel spitting hot as rounds big as fists tore into the foe.”
:|
It won't allow the Marine to carry unlimited shells, sure, but depending on which size interpretation of Marines you choose, they can very well carry enough for a protracted engagement- especially since rounds of that caliber will be one-shot kills, if not one-shot-multi-kills.
That's one quote. With which practically the entirety of the Black Library, FFG, and GW disagrees with.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Ashiraya wrote:
Pg.21 Deus Encarmine wrote:“His gun clattered, the barrel spitting hot as rounds big as fists tore into the foe.”
:|
It won't allow the Marine to carry unlimited shells, sure, but depending on which size interpretation of Marines you choose, they can very well carry enough for a protracted engagement- especially since rounds of that caliber will be one-shot kills, if not one-shot-multi-kills.
I'd say that's one author that's simply writing stuff to sound cool without checking their source material and having no clue what he's really talking about.
That passage is in contradiction to every specification GW, FW, FFG, etc have given in many books over time, from Rogue Trader to the 2E and 4E Wargear books, other BL books and FFG's RPG series. From any realistic perspective, ~120mm rounds are simply not practical anti-infantry weapons for what (to scale on a Space Marines) are submachinegun-esque firearms. That'd be like firing actual shoulder fired RPG's (or actually, bigger) for bolter rounds, which is absurd (not the least of which because their magazines would only hold like 2-3 rounds and be enormous). Shells of that size are anti-vehicle/area effect explosives, neither of which Bolters, however impressive, really are.
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Post by: Daba
If bolters had shells that size, they would be 2-3 shot panzerfaust like weapons.
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