I know GW has made many questionable decisions. But let's be honest it's impossible to satisfy everyone. I'm just so fed up with the constant complaining about everything GW does. This general air of negativity makes the 40k community seem very unaccepting, and I think scares off potential new players. Stop trying to point out every single thing that is wrong with a company and start trying to have fun for a change. After all isn't that why you started 40k in the first place?

If they'd stop being a horrible company with terrible business practices that punish the customer you might hear less negativity.

Also, I'm intentionally scaring off potential new players to other games.

 Random Dude wrote:
I think scares off potential new players.

I am not a sales man. I am a game player. It is more my job to give an informed opinion on the state of the game and my happiness with it. It is entirely dishonest for me to not say what I feel about the game, in the hopes that a new player will make a less informed opinion before investing in the hobby.

It is GW's job to interest people in the game. They rely on word of mouth to get people in, and it's been that way for a while. It shouldn't surprise them that if they produce a product that causes distaste then there are less new players coming in.

The point, often, is to show people there's more than GW. A lot of people, for whatever reason, think the whole world revolves around GW and 40k and don't care to look outside the box. That's what hurts the community. You can like 40k but hate GW (most people seem to), but what's really liberating is when you look elsewhere and see what 40k COULD have been. For example, I actively encourage people to look elsewhere first, and even if they play 40k to at least look into other games because there's so much more out there. I want to be a WARgamer, not a 40k gamer.

For instance, I just played a demo of Bolt Action this weekend. It was a blast, and felt closer to 40k than 40k does. Of course being historical it's not for everyone, but the key issue is that there are alternatives and open your mind. The narrow-minded person sticks with 40k because it's all they know, and all they want to know, which is the height of ignorance.

The wargaming community is a lot more than just Games Workshop products, but you only find this "One thing to rule them all" mentality with 40k (and Fantasy I suppose) players, every other game tends to have people that dabble in a variety of games, instead of play one exclusively and push it as the end-all, be-all.

It's interesting, many people who talk about what a horrible company GW is continue to play 40k. If GW is SO bad why don't more people switch?

 Random Dude wrote:
It's interesting, many people who talk about what a horrible company GW is continue to play 40k. If GW is SO bad why don't more people switch?

I did. I play Warmachine and Infinity now.

 Random Dude wrote:
It's interesting, many people who talk about what a horrible company GW is continue to play 40k. If GW is SO bad why don't more people switch?

I think a lot of people like 40k but hate GW. So they play the game but buy most things second-hand via eBay or the like. I can only think it's due to either the investment they've already put into the game (harder to switch when you've put hundreds, if not thousands, into it, to say nothing of time spent assembling and painting) or just cluelessness about other things. I've met a few people who started playing 40k within the past year or two and just aren't aware of alternatives, since they were brought into a pro-40k culture so they don't know how GW/40k used to be to know how bad things are now.

I don't really "push" other games, I push the idea there's more to wargaming than 40k. I'd love for an actual wargames club that plays different things, not people playing just 40k because 40k is all they know.

The only thing I don't like about GW is the prices. I don't complain I just buy my models at local wargaming stores with discounts.

Random Dude wrote:I know GW has made many questionable decisions. But let's be honest it's impossible to satisfy everyone. I'm just so fed up with the constant complaining about everything GW does. This general air of negativity makes the 40k community seem very unaccepting, and I think scares off potential new players. Stop trying to point out every single thing that is wrong with a company and start trying to have fun for a change. After all isn't that why you started 40k in the first place?

Wow. Your comments are a breath of fresh air. I don't think anybody has taken the bold stand that you have. Kudos.

Random Dude wrote:It's interesting, many people who talk about what a horrible company GW is continue to play 40k. If GW is SO bad why don't more people switch?

That's a fascinating and brilliant point. We rarely see such skilled rhetoric around here.

Random Dude wrote:The only thing I don't like about GW is the prices. I don't complain I just buy my models at local wargaming stores with discounts.

That's a poorly understood point. If you do the math, a 10-20% discount completely makes up for prices doubling in 10 years. Most people are just too stupid to realize it.

 Random Dude wrote:
It's interesting, many people who talk about what a horrible company GW is continue to play 40k. If GW is SO bad why don't more people switch?

People are, a lot of the "negativity" is possibly people that are leaving not because they want to, but that they feel there is nothing left for them in 40k/GW games .

I play lots of games, right now I don't play 40k realy just due to time and tiring. Evrything about the game is just far more effort and time, And GW seems at no point wanting to help me stay in there games so I am negative about that, and it also means I have less to fall back on when they do other things I dislike.
And why when something they do I do like, I have little positive to say anyway.

I also don't beleave at this point it's negative for new players to see the negatives of GW and there place int he hobby.
Around where I am, young players can't keep up anyway and it's not a healthy part of hobby for them to try and engage in over other parts of this great hobby.

 Random Dude wrote:
I know GW has made many questionable decisions. But let's be honest it's impossible to satisfy everyone. I'm just so fed up with the constant complaining about everything GW does. This general air of negativity makes the 40k community seem very unaccepting, and I think scares off potential new players. ... ...

I think this is a possibility and if it happens GW will come to regret having pissed off so many veterans.

 Random Dude wrote:
The only thing I don't like about GW is the prices. I don't complain I just buy my models at local wargaming stores with discounts.

But you have to admit that their aggressive business models undermine Customer confidence and create a situation where there is an air of user about the company, almost like instead of a customer, you are a commodity that they are trading. What other company has a business model where they have an interactive game and do not welcome customer feedback. GW are pushing its older players away and t them that is alright, a hey are the ones that already have their armies and remember how once upon a time the company cared about those that played their games.

Incoming another anti-gw thread.

your point was true, OP, but the gw haters will swarm to this.

Dragonzord wrote:
Incoming another anti-gw thread.

your point was true, OP, but the gw haters will swarm to this.

And what makes his point true? Should people just "shut up" and stop complaining? I think no.

WayneTheGame wrote:

Dragonzord wrote:
Incoming another anti-gw thread.

your point was true, OP, but the gw haters will swarm to this.

And what makes his point true? Should people just "shut up" and stop complaining? I think no.

Has complaining ever made gw stop and think? I think no.

Is it getting boring to read multiple anti gw threads on the front page? I think yes.

I never said they should stop complaining. However they should look at both sides of the debate before coming to a conclusion.

So, according to the OP and his one supporter, I should suck it up and continue giving money to a company that has nothing but disdain for me?

It's not a charity or a government. I don't have to give them money.

Since this is a capitalist economy, I choose to give my money to products I like better and companies I feel more deserving.

Dragonzord wrote:
Incoming another anti-gw thread.

your point was true, OP, but the gw haters will swarm to this.

So brave.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Random Dude wrote:
It's interesting, many people who talk about what a horrible company GW is continue to play 40k. If GW is SO bad why don't more people switch?

I did. I play Warmachine and Infinity now.

And yet you still visit the 40K forums to complain about it. Hooray.

Seriously, all this negativity surrounding every fart GW makes is pretty bad for my enjoyment of dakka.

Dragonzord wrote:
Incoming another anti-gw thread.

your point was true, OP, but the gw haters will swarm to this.

Should we refer to posters like yourself as GW Fanboi White Knights? Is that helping the air of negativity on the forums? Is that enhancing everyone's forum going experience? Is that an intelligent way to go about discussing a difference of opinions on this forum?

No.

So instead of making childish comments like referring to people as GW haters, maybe you could address some of the issues and explain why they're not issues at all.

But maybe that's too much work and instead labeling people in a black and white fashion to dismiss their opinions is easier.

text removed.

reds8n

 Random Dude wrote:
I never said they should stop complaining. However they should look at both sides of the debate before coming to a conclusion.

Look at both sides? What does that even mean? I've been playing since RT and I used to be a big GW supporter. I'm not some blind internet puppet. I'm a real person that loves 40k but hates seeing what its become.

People on Dakka never fail to be hateful.

 Random Dude wrote:
People on Dakka never fail to be hateful.

I see more hate in comments like this than anything critical that has ever been said about GW/40k.

I only see insults and personal attacks coming from GW supporters. Maybe they're the negative ones?

 Random Dude wrote:
People on Dakka never fail to be hateful.

Such incredible insight!

With such reasonable and thoughtful posts like that one, those people that have seen their years of hobby turning worse and worse with every passing season will surely stop complaining about it!

Bravo sir, I applaud you!

PhantomViper wrote:

 Random Dude wrote:
People on Dakka never fail to be hateful.

Such incredible insight!

With such reasonable and thoughtful posts like that one, those people that have seen their years of hobby turning worse and worse with every passing season will surely stop complaining about it!

Bravo sir, I applaud you!

Wow! Your sarcasm is hilarious!

 Random Dude wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 Random Dude wrote:
People on Dakka never fail to be hateful.

Such incredible insight!

With such reasonable and thoughtful posts like that one, those people that have seen their years of hobby turning worse and worse with every passing season will surely stop complaining about it!

Bravo sir, I applaud you!

Wow! Your sarcasm is hilarious!

Then add something of substance then.

GW have messed up 40k beyond all recognition. They're doing just fine on Fantasy still. It's a good game, and the Triumph and Treachery addition was very well received.

The feeling in the Fantasy side is more "God I hope they don't start giving fantasy the 40k treatment."

the so called "GW haters" have good reason to be angry. They've often invested thousands of dollars in a game that is now close to unplayable unless you sit down with your friends and start figuratively ripping pages out of the rulebook and replacing them with your own.

You can't have a game where you have to make so many house rules to make it work that the rules of the game will differ wildly from playgroup to playgroup.

If the product was only as god-awful as it is, maybe I would be in the apologist corner, but the attitude towards the gamers is so abyssal too. They do nothing to apologise for their utter mess of rules they've made, but rather they make it even worse and then tell you that you're playing the game wrong because you're using the rules they've provided, telling you that you should be "forging a narrative!"

They know everyone wants the rules and only the rules. But even they know charging the prices they want for a small book of only the rules would be bananas, so they force you to buy two more books that you don't want.
If they had any notion that people wanted those books they would sell all three separately as obviously if the quality and substance of the other books were worth the money people would still buy it.
They know only a sliver of a minority would.

I really can't understand the apologist crowd. The sheer amount of mistreatment we're receiving from GW is like a daily kick in the teeth.

GW is not a terrible company. They have provided us with absolutely stunning models of fantastic quality. They're priced to reflect it, but that doesn't change the fact that they are amazing.
They have given us a very good Fantasy ruleset.

But they have also completely manhandled their whole 40k fanbase, and for that they should get the hate they deserve.

I wouldn't recommend the game to anyone. Even Fantasy I'd warn people that while it's good now, GW has such a poor track record that you shouldn't get in to it if you aren't prepared for the worst.

 Random Dude wrote:
It's interesting, many people who talk about what a horrible company GW is continue to play 40k. If GW is SO bad why don't more people switch?

I did. I now play Warmahordes. Luckily I am a decent painter and made no loss on any of my armies when I sold them. I have one army left for casual games now and then.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Random Dude wrote:
I think scares off potential new players.

I am not a sales man. I am a game player. It is more my job to give an informed opinion on the state of the game and my happiness with it. It is entirely dishonest for me to not say what I feel about the game, in the hopes that a new player will make a less informed opinion before investing in the hobby.

It is GW's job to interest people in the game. They rely on word of mouth to get people in, and it's been that way for a while. It shouldn't surprise them that if they produce a product that causes distaste then there are less new players coming in.

At my local FLGS there were two guys looking to get into 40k. Long story short a few of us that play both systems discussed the pro's and conns to both systems. We also addressed the initial cost to buy into each game. Sufficient to say the walked out with the 2 player starter warmachine set.

My FLGS still has people interested in starting 40k, without anyone really to steer them clear, but I think it's coming; starting 40k from scratch now is IMO insane to bother with. We had a Bolt Action demo game Sunday and like 15 people showed up to try it out, a few of us bought starter sets. Still no Warmachine (the store doesn't even stock it any more that I can see) though, and the people who played Malifaux disappeared months ago. So it's very slow going here, people still care about 40k and don't realize how bad it is yet - I think it's because either they've put a lot into it so don't want to realize it's bad, or just have no idea about anything else because they "like 40k" so can't see past that.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/602120.page

Did this (locked) thread that you created recently not serve exactly the same purpose?

 MWHistorian wrote:
Also, I'm intentionally scaring off potential new players to other games.

If GW wants positive word of mouth they can damn well earn it. As is I'll try to save people some money by directing them to better games. I'll happily direct them back to 40k once GW plays nice again.

 Purifier wrote:
GW have messed up 40k beyond all recognition. They're doing just fine on Fantasy still. It's a good game, and the Triumph and Treachery addition was very well received.

The feeling in the Fantasy side is more "God I hope they don't start giving fantasy the 40k treatment."

the so called "GW haters" have good reason to be angry. They've often invested thousands of dollars in a game that is now close to unplayable unless you sit down with your friends and start figuratively ripping pages out of the rulebook and replacing them with your own.

You can't have a game where you have to make so many house rules to make it work that the rules of the game will differ wildly from playgroup to playgroup.

If the product was only as god-awful as it is, maybe I would be in the apologist corner, but the attitude towards the gamers is so abyssal too. They do nothing to apologise for their utter mess of rules they've made, but rather they make it even worse and then tell you that you're playing the game wrong because you're using the rules they've provided, telling you that you should be "forging a narrative!"

They know everyone wants the rules and only the rules. But even they know charging the prices they want for a small book of only the rules would be bananas, so they force you to buy two more books that you don't want.
If they had any notion that people wanted those books they would sell all three separately as obviously if the quality and substance of the other books were worth the money people would still buy it.
They know only a sliver of a minority would.

I really can't understand the apologist crowd. The sheer amount of mistreatment we're receiving from GW is like a daily kick in the teeth.

GW is not a terrible company. They have provided us with absolutely stunning models of fantastic quality. They're priced to reflect it, but that doesn't change the fact that they are amazing.
They have given us a very good Fantasy ruleset.

But they have also completely manhandled their whole 40k fanbase, and for that they should get the hate they deserve.

I wouldn't recommend the game to anyone. Even Fantasy I'd warn people that while it's good now, GW has such a poor track record that you shouldn't get in to it if you aren't prepared for the worst.

Awesome post.

It's not that they're incompetent. It's that they're incompetent and also have an air of arrogance about them.

 Random Dude wrote:
It's interesting, many people who talk about what a horrible company GW is continue to play 40k. If GW is SO bad why don't more people switch?

They are. I'm painting up a Circle of Orboros army right now, and getting in a few games of warmahordes. There's still a lot of inertia to play 40k, but It's been interesting to see how much the atmosphere has changed at our FLGS - compared to a couple years ago, there is so much more interest in non-40k miniatures games.

I can see the point from both sides. I love the 40K setting and fluff. I love the grimdark. I do love the game for the most part. I have my issues with the rules, but I slog along with them because I love the game and the hobby. For me the painting is cathartic, and nothing feels more awesome than fielding an army of models you put your blood, sweat, and tears into...and then seeing them get blasted to bits xD

On the other hand, I do see the problems that the "haters" have. It is a premium price to pay for a game, and as such, clear rules and attention to fanbase should not be ignored.

At the end of the day, I am happy with 40K. I have my gripes, but for me there is far more love than hate. I don't dock the haters because in a lot of ways they have a legitimate case.

Also, if you are tired of haters, why make a thread that will just flock them in and spew their hatred even more? Just ignore them...

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
At the end of the day, I am happy with 40K. I have my gripes, but for me there is far more love than hate. I don't dock the haters because in a lot of ways they have a legitimate case.

A perfectly reasonable stance. We don't want to reduce peoples enjoyment of the game - I'm glad you're still enjoying it. Though, I'd still request you try not to support the more egregious GW policies such as day one dlc and what not ; p

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
I can see the point from both sides. I love the 40K setting and fluff. I love the grimdark. I do love the game for the most part. I have my issues with the rules, but I slog along with them because I love the game and the hobby. For me the painting is cathartic, and nothing feels more awesome than fielding an army of models you put your blood, sweat, and tears into...and then seeing them get blasted to bits xD

On the other hand, I do see the problems that the "haters" have. It is a premium price to pay for a game, and as such, clear rules and attention to fanbase should not be ignored.

At the end of the day, I am happy with 40K. I have my gripes, but for me there is far more love than hate. I don't dock the haters because in a lot of ways they have a legitimate case.

Also, if you are tired of haters, why make a thread that will just flock them in and spew their hatred even more? Just ignore them...

Thanks for at least looking at both sides

 Purifier wrote:
They're doing just fine on Fantasy still. It's a good game, and the Triumph and Treachery addition was very well received.

The feeling in the Fantasy side is more "God I hope they don't start giving fantasy the 40k treatment.

Huh??

They STARTED their recent 40k trend with Fantasy, that is all that 6th ed. 40k was, the same dumbing down and randomization of rules that GW did with 8th edition Fantasy, the "bigger is better" trend also started with the release of the Storm of Magic supplement, and the ridiculousness of 40k's psychic phase can't hold a candle to the game breaking stupidity of 8th edition's Magic phase! Its the reason why Fantasy has all but disappeared from almost everywhere.

If anything, 8th ed. Fantasy is an even worse game than 40k can ever hope to become.

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
I can see the point from both sides. I love the 40K setting and fluff. I love the grimdark. I do love the game for the most part.

The fluff is 40k's strong point, even with some of the silliness that goes with the territory (WAAAAAARRRDDD!!!)

Interestingly, I've seen a real surge in interest in the 40k RPGs, even as interest in the miniatures game has waned. The setting really lends itself to fun RP sessions, since there's lots of flexibility in atmosphere (you can play up the serious or goofy aspects as needed). As much as "forging the narrative" is an in-joke around here, I really hope that GW wises up and starts embracing some of the storytelling aspects of the game, since they can be a lot of fun. The irony of 40k is that, as much as they talk about "forging the narrative", the main issue people have with 40k is that the ruleset is more "gamey" than it is "narrative". GW may not have intended that, but it's hard to fault a new player who reads through the rulebook for the first time and thinks that this is somehow a balanced, competitive game.

PhantomViper wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
They're doing just fine on Fantasy still. It's a good game, and the Triumph and Treachery addition was very well received.

The feeling in the Fantasy side is more "God I hope they don't start giving fantasy the 40k treatment.

Huh??

They STARTED their recent 40k trend with Fantasy, that is all that 6th ed. 40k was, the same dumbing down and randomization of rules that GW did with 8th edition Fantasy, the "bigger is better" trend also started with the release of the Storm of Magic supplement, and the ridiculousness of 40k's psychic phase can't hold a candle to the game breaking stupidity of 8th edition's Magic phase! Its the reason why Fantasy has all but disappeared from almost everywhere.

If anything, 8th ed. Fantasy is an even worse game than 40k can ever hope to become.

Right on. I'm totally mystified as to why people think Fantasy is better than 40k - it's insanely broken, in ways that 40k could only dream of. The magic phase is bonkers, and I was shocked that they used it as a basis for the new 40k psychic phase.

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
I can see the point from both sides. I love the 40K setting and fluff. I love the grimdark. I do love the game for the most part. I have my issues with the rules, but I slog along with them because I love the game and the hobby. For me the painting is cathartic, and nothing feels more awesome than fielding an army of models you put your blood, sweat, and tears into...and then seeing them get blasted to bits xD

On the other hand, I do see the problems that the "haters" have. It is a premium price to pay for a game, and as such, clear rules and attention to fanbase should not be ignored.

At the end of the day, I am happy with 40K. I have my gripes, but for me there is far more love than hate. I don't dock the haters because in a lot of ways they have a legitimate case.

Also, if you are tired of haters, why make a thread that will just flock them in and spew their hatred even more? Just ignore them...

I guessing he get annoyed of the fact that those who dislike the game and even already sold their armies and quit still feel the need to dampen the mood in various threads. Take a look at a rumor thread for example, tons of whining about prices, how the model looks terrible despite only seeing one picture of it or how GW messed up once again etc. Makes it hard to even bother reading anything or get excited for new releases when every time someone tries to talk about 40k or GW an instant barrage of negativity hits. I not saying people can't have an opinion, but it would be nice to be able to talk about the 40k hobby without so much negativity, I deal with enough crap in life that I don't need to deal with even more of it in what suppose to be a enjoyable way to past the time.

I grew up with 40k. I'd compare every sci-fi universe with 40k and would think "still not as awesome as 40k." I'd get deep into the histories of the different legions and chapters and read about the wars and battles. Me and my brother spent countless hours playing 2nd edition with whatever forces we threw together that day. It was fantastic and still some of my best memories.

But now I just feel sad, like a parent who thought their kid was doing amazing in school finding out their kid got expelled for doing drugs or something. I just feel let down and fooled. The universe that I've loved since I was a kid now just feels cheapened, like I can see the corporate suits behind every decision instead of a living world where marines fight deamon worshiping traitors. Now I see GW trying to sue people for talking about GW or trying to copy write common words and phrases or call their fans nerds whose hobby is to buy more gak from them.

It had ruined the magic for me and now I see the man behind the curtain and I don't like that man at all.
I'm not angry, just disappointed.

I still think the plastic kits are top-notch compared to more affordable companies.

Buying from your LGS is great all around. The store gets business, you get a discount (or points or whatever), and there is typically a place to play as well.

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
Buying from your LGS is great all around. The store gets business, you get a discount (or points or whatever), and there is typically a place to play as well.

Even that isn't good if GW is regionally pricing in your country, making them cost 30%+ more than elsewhere.

I am pretty tired of the negativity I see (especially on this forum). It just grows tiresome and tends to be the same sentiments over and over again. Ok we get it, you are not happy. Point taken.

It seems to me the negative feelings for GW are a lot like what you see from Microsoft haters or Apple haters people generally like to express bad feelings towards companies that are LEADERS in their particular industry. Same thing happens to GW. They are the leaders in table top miniature games (or at the very least the name most associated with it) so they catch a lot of negative comments for being the leader. Seems to be just human nature. we feel like the leader in a particular industry is out to get the consumer, does not understand the market, makes poor design decisions, etc... I work for a software company that is the leader in our particular domain and I see all of the same kinds of negative stuff about us. I can tell you for the most part the negative feeling are pretty unfounded.

Are there things about 40k I would change? For sure there are, but for me it has the one thing going for it that other games do not have a VAST player base. At least in my area it is way easier to find other players and games of 40k than any other game. can I find them if I looked, probably, but it is just WAYYY easier to find a 40k game. For me that is really what it is about. Finding someone else to play a game with and interact, have a beer, have some fun away from a screen every once and awhile. Other games could offer that, but it is just more work to find other players than I want to invest.

So I will continue to play 40k, buy GW rules and models and enjoy myself.

What I do find myself doing less and less of is reading the negative stuff posted to this forum.

 Random Dude wrote:
I know GW has made many questionable decisions. But let's be honest it's impossible to satisfy everyone. I'm just so fed up with the constant complaining about everything GW does. This general air of negativity makes the 40k community seem very unaccepting, and I think scares off potential new players. Stop trying to point out every single thing that is wrong with a company and start trying to have fun for a change. After all isn't that why you started 40k in the first place?

Your first mistake is coming here to make a statement. I never understood why Dakka had such a bad reputation because I'd always looked only in the modeling/painting forum, but a few weeks in 'General' and - I get it lol.

Even one of the mods here is a major contributor to the nonsense nerd-rage and will likely close this thread while that other 'whine' thread has reached over 41 pages with no end in sight.

I'm tired of the negativity too but, if you are looking for reasonable discussion, you've come to the wrong place.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Random Dude wrote:
I know GW has made many questionable decisions. But let's be honest it's impossible to satisfy everyone. I'm just so fed up with the constant complaining about everything GW does. This general air of negativity makes the 40k community seem very unaccepting, and I think scares off potential new players. Stop trying to point out every single thing that is wrong with a company and start trying to have fun for a change. After all isn't that why you started 40k in the first place?

Your first mistake is coming here to make a statement. I never understood why Dakka had such a bad reputation because I'd always looked only in the modeling/painting forum, but a few weeks in 'General' and - I get it lol.

Even one of the mods here is a major contributor to the nonsense nerd-rage and will likely close this thread while that other 'whine' thread has reached over 41 pages with no end in sight.

I'm tired of the negativity too but, if you are looking for reasonable discussion, you've come to the wrong place.

I think its the fact that you write it all off as "Nonesense nerd-rage" that's your problem. You don't see what we're saying. And its usually "White Knights" insulting people with complaints that gets threads locked.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Random Dude wrote:
I know GW has made many questionable decisions. But let's be honest it's impossible to satisfy everyone. I'm just so fed up with the constant complaining about everything GW does. This general air of negativity makes the 40k community seem very unaccepting, and I think scares off potential new players. Stop trying to point out every single thing that is wrong with a company and start trying to have fun for a change. After all isn't that why you started 40k in the first place?

Your first mistake is coming here to make a statement. I never understood why Dakka had such a bad reputation because I'd always looked only in the modeling/painting forum, but a few weeks in 'General' and - I get it lol.

Even one of the mods here is a major contributor to the nonsense nerd-rage and will likely close this thread while that other 'whine' thread has reached over 41 pages with no end in sight.

I'm tired of the negativity too but, if you are looking for reasonable discussion, you've come to the wrong place.

Nicely said - neat summary of my opinion too.

Sadly, what you say about general hasn't always been so - I remember that when I was new here, I rarely saw something about how evil GW was. Same with Background, which is now filled with whining over SM and their penises..

The problem may be at GW, but I wouldn't say the internet isn't really exactly helping..

 Gunzhard wrote:
nonsense nerd-rage

You really should look at how you talk before you criticise others. I'd like to see any evidence of Dakka having a bad rep, it's by far the best and most balanced tabletop discussion I've found. If you want an echo chamber I guess it's not ideal though.

 Gunzhard wrote:
the nonsense nerd-rage(...) while that other 'whine' thread has reached over 41 pages with no end in sight.

I'm tired of the negativity too but, if you are looking for reasonable discussion, you've come to the wrong place.

Shall I fetch your armor polish so thou may have the shiniest gleam of all the white knights, my lord?

Seriously, how can you expect to get any respect when you're dismissing the other side with such insulting generalizations. It's like you haven't read a single post from the "negative" side.
And for the record, I'd like to not be called the negative side since I've seen more insulting language used from the pro-GW side. I'm a dissatisfied customer. I have two useless extra books on top of a crappy rule book that I paid good money for and I can't justify the cost with the product.

 Yonan wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
nonsense nerd-rage

You really should look at how you talk before you criticise others. I'd like to see any evidence of Dakka having a bad rep, it's by far the best and most balanced tabletop discussion I've found. If you want an echo chamber I guess it's not ideal though.

People like him believe that if you don't think as he does, there's something wrong with you and thus he has an inherent right to insult you without actually understanding what you're saying.

 DanielBeaver wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
They're doing just fine on Fantasy still. It's a good game, and the Triumph and Treachery addition was very well received.

The feeling in the Fantasy side is more "God I hope they don't start giving fantasy the 40k treatment.

Huh??

They STARTED their recent 40k trend with Fantasy, that is all that 6th ed. 40k was, the same dumbing down and randomization of rules that GW did with 8th edition Fantasy, the "bigger is better" trend also started with the release of the Storm of Magic supplement, and the ridiculousness of 40k's psychic phase can't hold a candle to the game breaking stupidity of 8th edition's Magic phase! Its the reason why Fantasy has all but disappeared from almost everywhere.

If anything, 8th ed. Fantasy is an even worse game than 40k can ever hope to become.

Right on. I'm totally mystified as to why people think Fantasy is better than 40k - it's insanely broken, in ways that 40k could only dream of. The magic phase is bonkers, and I was shocked that they used it as a basis for the new 40k psychic phase.

Well, if you look at the people that actually play the game, those people enjoy Fantasy. If you ask people that play 40k, most will start with a sigh and ask you where to begin bringing up gripes.

I disagree with you. I don't think Fantasy is broken. If you're gonna play it like 40k, then yes. That doesn't work. You can't just storm ahead and think that's a valid tactic with every army.
In Fantasy you can play around massive losses. In 40k, massive losses means you've got nothing to use once your turn comes.

Fantasy doesn't have the DLC of 40k. Fantasy doesn't have the out of control ally matrix of 40k.

To me, Fantasy is a much much more balanced game. A game that isn't decided by what army you choose to play. 40k is.

Magic phase is incredibly strong, but not as ridiculous as the 40k shooting phase. I don't feel like a game is ever decided by one magic phase. I have however felt that a game has been decided in a single shooting phase in 40k.

All that said, I don't think Fantasy is a perfect system. I just find 40k stressful in how poorly balanced it is, and how swiftly it keeps careening even more out of control. It's like GW has simply let go of the reins and will let it run at break neck speed right into the ditch.
In Fantasy, I feel there is a very good balance, and that it's being kept. None of the new books are either terribly weak or destroying the balance of the rest of the armies.

Another optimist left stripped and strangled in the middle of town. Well done, team. Your duty to the republic has been noted.

 Polonius wrote:

Random Dude wrote:I know GW has made many questionable decisions. But let's be honest it's impossible to satisfy everyone. I'm just so fed up with the constant complaining about everything GW does. This general air of negativity makes the 40k community seem very unaccepting, and I think scares off potential new players. Stop trying to point out every single thing that is wrong with a company and start trying to have fun for a change. After all isn't that why you started 40k in the first place?

Wow. Your comments are a breath of fresh air. I don't think anybody has taken the bold stand that you have. Kudos.

Random Dude wrote:It's interesting, many people who talk about what a horrible company GW is continue to play 40k. If GW is SO bad why don't more people switch?

That's a fascinating and brilliant point. We rarely see such skilled rhetoric around here.

Random Dude wrote:The only thing I don't like about GW is the prices. I don't complain I just buy my models at local wargaming stores with discounts.

That's a poorly understood point. If you do the math, a 10-20% discount completely makes up for prices doubling in 10 years. Most people are just too stupid to realize it.

Wait what? Prices go up 50% but somehow a 10% discount makes up for that?

Maybe someone ought to quote you and act like an donkey-cave towards you? Hey you, you have dumb ideas. Shut them up.

See now, I sound stupid. Thanks. Jerk.

Hey at least I'm joking! These other fools seem like they're ready to exchange addresses and throw down or something.

 Wilytank wrote:
Another optimist left stripped and strangled in the middle of town. Well done, team. Your duty to the republic has been noted.

Which one? The one that came in with nothing but insults?

 Yonan wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:
nonsense nerd-rage

You really should look at how you talk before you criticise others. I'd like to see any evidence of Dakka having a bad rep, it's by far the best and most balanced tabletop discussion I've found. If you want an echo chamber I guess it's not ideal though.

Exactly, the most inflammatory comment in this thread so far, and it originates from somebody accusing others of doing some thing that wasn't happening.

Essentially I think it boils down to the fact that there are so many factors that those who feel negative towards either the game or GW in general can argue with copious amounts of solid evidence and/or reasoning to back it up, that those that disagree can only really drag the discussion into mis-characterisation, ad hominems and strawmen in order to have any basis for argument. (If indeed one could call it a basis for argument.)

I'm not tired of the negativity, I'm able to filter the thoughts and opinions of others on the Internet through my own thoughts and experiences, and reconcile all that with the fact that I do still find something within 40K to enjoy.

What I am tired of is repeatedly reading and responding to the same tired, baseless arguments from those who somehow feel that everyone should be like GW employees and not employ, or at least express, any degree of critical thought. I am tired of defending myself or others from those who feel compelled to defend the indefensible.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
Another optimist left stripped and strangled in the middle of town. Well done, team. Your duty to the republic has been noted.

Which one? The one that came in with nothing but insults?

All the ones! It is our sacred duty to always be unhappy all the time!

 Wilytank wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
Another optimist left stripped and strangled in the middle of town. Well done, team. Your duty to the republic has been noted.

Which one? The one that came in with nothing but insults?

All the ones! It is our sacred duty to always be unhappy all the time!

Another clear, concise and supported argument from a GW apologist.

We're failing you master, we thanked an optimist on this very page : ( We'll try harder!

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
Another optimist left stripped and strangled in the middle of town. Well done, team. Your duty to the republic has been noted.

Which one? The one that came in with nothing but insults?

All the ones! It is our sacred duty to always be unhappy all the time!

Another clear, concise and supported argument from a GW apologist.

Yeah, because everyone that doesn't agree with you is a GW apolagist, just like how every religious person is a nutter

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
Another optimist left stripped and strangled in the middle of town. Well done, team. Your duty to the republic has been noted.

Which one? The one that came in with nothing but insults?

All the ones! It is our sacred duty to always be unhappy all the time!

Another clear, concise and supported argument from a GW apologist.

Yeah, because everyone that doesn't agree with you is a GW apolagist, just like how every religious person is a nutter

No, but everyone that automatically dismisses all of the criticism thrown at GW as "haterz gonna hate" instead of actually offering any counter points of their own, is a GW apologist.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

Yeah, because everyone that doesn't agree with you is a GW apolagist, just like how every religious person is a nutter

Oh look, another argument against something that nobody is stating. It's almost like there's a consistent pattern with the pro-GW side.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

Yeah, because everyone that doesn't agree with you is a GW apolagist, just like how every religious person is a nutter

Oh look, another argument against something that nobody is stating. It's almost like there's a consistent pattern with the pro-GW side.

I'm not saying GW isn't doing lots of things wrong.

I find it funny that in every thread like this, the "anti-GW" crowd put forth concise arguments that make sense... and the "anti-anti-GW" crowd come in with "Don't like it stop playing" and "Stop whining the game is great!" and similar anecdotes, and often turn hostile first.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
Another optimist left stripped and strangled in the middle of town. Well done, team. Your duty to the republic has been noted.

Which one? The one that came in with nothing but insults?

All the ones! It is our sacred duty to always be unhappy all the time!

Another clear, concise and supported argument from a GW apologist.

I have no idea what you're talking about. The other day, I went into the local store and saw two people playing 40k. One of them had a smile on his face! Can you believe that? The nerve of the guy! But don't worry, I took him in the back, smashed a block of concrete over his head and beat him with a steel rod for about an hour before disposing his body in the local lake. You may PM me your thank you card.

WayneTheGame wrote:
I find it funny that in every thread like this, the "anti-GW" crowd put forth concise arguments that make sense... and the "anti-anti-GW" crowd come in with "Don't like it stop playing" and "Stop whining the game is great!" and similar anecdotes, and often turn hostile first.

Sorry for enjoying 40K and saying so instead of spewing forth enough hate to create a new 1d4chan.

 Wilytank wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
Another optimist left stripped and strangled in the middle of town. Well done, team. Your duty to the republic has been noted.

Which one? The one that came in with nothing but insults?

All the ones! It is our sacred duty to always be unhappy all the time!

Another clear, concise and supported argument from a GW apologist.

I have no idea what you're talking about. The other day, I went into the local store and saw two people playing 40k. One of them had a smile on his face! Can you believe that? The nerve of the guy! But don't worry, I took him in the back, smashed a block of concrete over his head and beat him with a steel rod for about an hour before disposing his body in the local lake. You may PM me your thank you card.

Stop insulting us with this baseless caricature. It's neither accurate nor helpful.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I find it funny that in every thread like this, the "anti-GW" crowd put forth concise arguments that make sense... and the "anti-anti-GW" crowd come in with "Don't like it stop playing" and "Stop whining the game is great!" and similar anecdotes, and often turn hostile first.

Sorry for enjoying 40K and saying so instead of spewing forth enough hate to create a new 1d4chan.

Nobody is saying you can't enjoy 40k, but the "anti-anti-GW" crowd tend to not put any argument forth or even acknowledge that some people have issues. It's always "stop whining" or just dismissing anything saying 40k isn't great as "nerd rage" instead of seeing the point, even if you don't experience it yourself.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I find it funny that in every thread like this, the "anti-GW" crowd put forth concise arguments that make sense... and the "anti-anti-GW" crowd come in with "Don't like it stop playing" and "Stop whining the game is great!" and similar anecdotes, and often turn hostile first.

Sorry for enjoying 40K and saying so instead of spewing forth enough hate to create a new 1d4chan.

Nobody is saying you can't enjoy 40k, but the "anti-anti-GW" crowd tend to not put any argument forth or even acknowledge that some people have issues. It's always "stop whining" or just dismissing anything saying 40k isn't great as "nerd rage" instead of seeing the point, even if you don't experience it yourself.

It is "nerd-rage" if you...


You know what, no. I'm done with the 40K board here. Whatever I say I'll likely get called a GW fanboy anyway, because I don't ebay, proxy and don't play non-GW Wargames, or just generally hate 40K.

WayneTheGame wrote:
I find it funny that in every thread like this, the "anti-GW" crowd put forth concise arguments that make sense... and the "anti-anti-GW" crowd come in with "Don't like it stop playing" and "Stop whining the game is great!" and similar anecdotes, and often turn hostile first.

I find it funny that the same folks that have already admitted to not even trying the new rules, have been here literally, every day, basing GW for, at least, the last 3 weeks that I've been looking. In what other capacity, outside of 40k, would this not be considered nonsense, seriously?

And when the 'sky has been falling' for nearly 30 years, maybe it is smart to just move on cuz 40k is not your game.

If I'm a "White Knight" for liking 40k and GW as a company, then someone better get a squire in here. I need my armour polished! You have my support OP.

There have been GW haters since the begining. This idea that there was ever a time when everyone was cool with GW is a myth. Every codex, every new edition has always been met with cries of the sky falling, and it hasn't happened yet.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I find it funny that in every thread like this, the "anti-GW" crowd put forth concise arguments that make sense... and the "anti-anti-GW" crowd come in with "Don't like it stop playing" and "Stop whining the game is great!" and similar anecdotes, and often turn hostile first.

Sorry for enjoying 40K and saying so instead of spewing forth enough hate to create a new 1d4chan.

Nobody is saying you can't enjoy 40k, but the "anti-anti-GW" crowd tend to not put any argument forth or even acknowledge that some people have issues. It's always "stop whining" or just dismissing anything saying 40k isn't great as "nerd rage" instead of seeing the point, even if you don't experience it yourself.

It is "nerd-rage" if you...


You know what, no. I'm done with the 40K board here. Whatever I say I'll likely get called a GW fanboy anyway, because I don't ebay, proxy and don't play non-GW Wargames, or just generally hate 40K.

Because you have nothing to say other than "I find the game is fine, stop whining about it" which basically dismisses any complaint as "whining" which is insulting.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

Yeah, because everyone that doesn't agree with you is a GW apolagist, just like how every religious person is a nutter

Oh look, another argument against something that nobody is stating. It's almost like there's a consistent pattern with the pro-GW side.

I'm not saying GW isn't doing lots of things wrong.

I'm not saying you did say that. Just that you dismissed the point of the person you quoted, who was addressing a very negative person saying that the side he doesn't agree with is apparently trying to actively ruin the fun of the game to the point that we'd commit violence for someone smiling.

You made a comment against something that wasn't being stated.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I find it funny that in every thread like this, the "anti-GW" crowd put forth concise arguments that make sense... and the "anti-anti-GW" crowd come in with "Don't like it stop playing" and "Stop whining the game is great!" and similar anecdotes, and often turn hostile first.

Sorry for enjoying 40K and saying so instead of spewing forth enough hate to create a new 1d4chan.

Nobody is saying you can't enjoy 40k, but the "anti-anti-GW" crowd tend to not put any argument forth or even acknowledge that some people have issues. It's always "stop whining" or just dismissing anything saying 40k isn't great as "nerd rage" instead of seeing the point, even if you don't experience it yourself.

It is "nerd-rage" if you...


You know what, no. I'm done with the 40K board here. Whatever I say I'll likely get called a GW fanboy anyway, because I don't ebay, proxy and don't play non-GW Wargames, or just generally hate 40K.

No one's said anything like that. (Yet again, someone arguing against something that nobody said.)

 Gunzhard wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I find it funny that in every thread like this, the "anti-GW" crowd put forth concise arguments that make sense... and the "anti-anti-GW" crowd come in with "Don't like it stop playing" and "Stop whining the game is great!" and similar anecdotes, and often turn hostile first.

I find it funny that the same folks that have already admitted to not even trying the new rules, have been here literally, every day, basing GW for, at least, the last 3 weeks that I've been looking. In what other capacity, outside of 40k, would this not be considered nonsense, seriously?

And when the 'sky has been falling' for nearly 30 years, maybe it is smart to just move on cuz 40k is not your game.

Because people can read? You don't have to play with the new rules if you read them and see garbage. Also, people keep trotting out this "sky is falling for 30 years" stuff all the time, but length of time in business doesn't mean squat. Remember TSR? How long were they in business? How fast did they fall? It was gradually for sure. GW is going down the same path TSR did.

And yet again the "Don't like it? Don't play" comment rears its ugly head. Because it's all black and white, right?

Just came back to the game a few days ago, have been gone since mid-late 5th edition. The game most definitely has its issues, but in my opinion, many of these things can easily be overlooked and forgiven, except for the damn pricing.

The way I see it, codices change, they won't always be what they were back in the day, this is fine.

Rules could be written better than they are now, but it takes minimal effort to understand any of the poor wording and intent offered by GW.

Balance issues are another issue, but most of the players I played with back in the day simply made top tier lists anyway so we always had the best thing available to us at the time so there wasn't too much of an issue.

I haven't seen these apologists you keep mentioning. I've seen players who like the game not understand why people who quit the game still rant and rave about it and why those who hate the game still play.

I didn't like 5th for the most part, the prices were beginning to get annoying so I left the game cold turkey.

That's what you do. If you don't like something, remove yourself from the situation, you don't go back to the game or even to the community where you played until you've given yourself ample time to take a step back.

I understand that many of you are simply, "Stating what we feel is wrong with the game using legitimate facts and data to support our positions."

This is fine, but first and foremost, you are upset because of what the game is, not how it has become. The game has always had issues, going back to at least 4th when I began with my first Ork army, a lot of those issues, still there and that was what, 12 or so years ago?

Prices were expensive then for what they were offering at the time, it stands to reason that the prices would be similar if not more over a decade later.

Yeah, also. I have fun most of the time when playing 40k so... I don't know if that's good or bad...

Does the OP have a point? Yes he does, and it's reflected in other similar threads as well, like for example the "I feel like GW just can't win" thread.

I admit that even as a new player, I recognize the shortcomings and flaws of 40k. It only takes a little bit of reading, especially in old WD mags, to know that the game wasn't always like this. But you know what it's not the be all end all. Sure right now I have a ton of Space Marines to paint, but eventually I'll probably pick up a few other games as well. Does GW drive me away from 40k with bad rules and mismanagement? Hell yeah they do, but they also offer a quality product that I have become very fond of, so I weigh my options.

I can either stop playing 40k altogether, write off my collection and start over. Seems pretty spiteful considering GW doesn't give two flying pigs about my business, so why bother quitting? I have easy access to the old books, and you know most of these models will probably be worth money someday when the company finally folds. So I'll just shut up, keep painting and rolling dice. One day my kid will have some really cool toys to play with. In the meantime, I'll be enjoying my time and my hobby.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I find it funny that in every thread like this, the "anti-GW" crowd put forth concise arguments that make sense... and the "anti-anti-GW" crowd come in with "Don't like it stop playing" and "Stop whining the game is great!" and similar anecdotes, and often turn hostile first.

Sorry for enjoying 40K and saying so instead of spewing forth enough hate to create a new 1d4chan.

Nobody is saying you can't enjoy 40k, but the "anti-anti-GW" crowd tend to not put any argument forth or even acknowledge that some people have issues. It's always "stop whining" or just dismissing anything saying 40k isn't great as "nerd rage" instead of seeing the point, even if you don't experience it yourself.

I see your point, I had your issues. I stopped playing for years. Not one peep about it from me, not a single complaint or whine. I damn sure didn't go onto an internet forum to express my emotional state about the game. What would that have even accomplished?

Those who are unhappy with GW and have stopped playing, honestly have no leg to stand on in this discussion as a whole imo, you quit long ago, why the hell are you even in a forum that is mostly for 40k? Not saying you can't talk about it, but why would you?

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:
If I'm a "White Knight" for liking 40k and GW as a company, then someone better get a squire in here. I need my armour polished! You have my support OP.

There have been GW haters since the begining. This idea that there was ever a time when everyone was cool with GW is a myth. Every codex, every new edition has always been met with cries of the sky falling, and it hasn't happened yet.

Tell that to the people currently trying to organize 40k tournaments around here, because most months they are unable to find enough people to meet the minimum number of players (4)... From where I'm standing, the sky has already fallen on GW's head.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I find it funny that in every thread like this, the "anti-GW" crowd put forth concise arguments that make sense... and the "anti-anti-GW" crowd come in with "Don't like it stop playing" and "Stop whining the game is great!" and similar anecdotes, and often turn hostile first.

I find it funny that the same folks that have already admitted to not even trying the new rules, have been here literally, every day, basing GW for, at least, the last 3 weeks that I've been looking. In what other capacity, outside of 40k, would this not be considered nonsense, seriously?

And when the 'sky has been falling' for nearly 30 years, maybe it is smart to just move on cuz 40k is not your game.

Because people can read? You don't have to play with the new rules if you read them and see garbage. Also, people keep trotting out this "sky is falling for 30 years" stuff all the time, but length of time in business doesn't mean squat. Remember TSR? How long were they in business? How fast did they fall? It was gradually for sure. GW is going down the same path TSR did.

And yet again the "Don't like it? Don't play" comment rears its ugly head. Because it's all black and white, right?

Actually it is. It is, what is the proper phrase I'm thinking of, it's not Common Sense, it's....oh yes, its Obvious. When you do not like something, what you must then to do relieve the situation is Obvious. Remove yourself from it. It isn't much difficult than that.

Can we clear the air for a moment and actually consider what's been said?

The "negative" side never said at all that you can't have fun with the game. Most of the time it's just been "we are allowed to have opinions too"

The response has been ranging from "leave the game" to "stop complaining" to "you like to smash people's teeth in for smiling"

Can you have fun with the game? Yes! Absolutely. I still play the game and try to have fun with it.

Are there negatives? Many! I have had several very one sided games simply because of bad balance in the system and that has led to many games that weren't fun. The games take an hour or more at least and that's a lot of time of not having fun because of a pre-existing issue that will not be fixed.

Rompope wrote:
Just came back to the game a few days ago, have been gone since mid-late 5th edition. The game most definitely has its issues, but in my opinion, many of these things can easily be overlooked and forgiven, except for the damn pricing.

The way I see it, codices change, they won't always be what they were back in the day, this is fine.

Rules could be written better than they are now, but it takes minimal effort to understand any of the poor wording and intent offered by GW.

Balance issues are another issue, but most of the players I played with back in the day simply made top tier lists anyway so we always had the best thing available to us at the time so there wasn't too much of an issue.

I haven't seen these apologists you keep mentioning. I've seen players who like the game not understand why people who quit the game still rant and rave about it and why those who hate the game still play.

I didn't like 5th for the most part, the prices were beginning to get annoying so I left the game cold turkey.

That's what you do. If you don't like something, remove yourself from the situation, you don't go back to the game or even to the community where you played until you've given yourself ample time to take a step back.

I understand that many of you are simply, "Stating what we feel is wrong with the game using legitimate facts and data to support our positions."

This is fine, but first and foremost, you are upset because of what the game is, not how it has become. The game has always had issues, going back to at least 4th when I began with my first Ork army, a lot of those issues, still there and that was what, 12 or so years ago?

Prices were expensive then for what they were offering at the time, it stands to reason that the prices would be similar if not more over a decade later.

I like your post and commend you on your positive attitude.
But the one thing I take issue is the highlighted part. Go back and read the posts of people coming in and calling everyone with a complaint mindless haters. Those are the apologists. People like you I have no beef with at all and I hope you continue to have fun and enjoy the hobby like I once did. I still love 40k, but I don't like what GW is doing to it. I'm hoping it will again return to something I can enjoy. (So I'm holding on to my SOB army I've been collecting since 2nd.)

Rompope wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I find it funny that in every thread like this, the "anti-GW" crowd put forth concise arguments that make sense... and the "anti-anti-GW" crowd come in with "Don't like it stop playing" and "Stop whining the game is great!" and similar anecdotes, and often turn hostile first.

Sorry for enjoying 40K and saying so instead of spewing forth enough hate to create a new 1d4chan.

Nobody is saying you can't enjoy 40k, but the "anti-anti-GW" crowd tend to not put any argument forth or even acknowledge that some people have issues. It's always "stop whining" or just dismissing anything saying 40k isn't great as "nerd rage" instead of seeing the point, even if you don't experience it yourself.

I see your point, I had your issues. I stopped playing for years. Not one peep about it from me, not a single complaint or whine. I damn sure didn't go onto an internet forum to express my emotional state about the game. What would that have even accomplished?

Those who are unhappy with GW and have stopped playing, honestly have no leg to stand on in this discussion as a whole imo, you quit long ago, why the hell are you even in a forum that is mostly for 40k? Not saying you can't talk about it, but why would you?

I obviously can't speak for others, for me it's because I continually consider trying it again. I picked up Warmachine and while it's a good game as far as games go, something about it just feels bland and soulless; I can't get "into" it beyond as a game. I played a demo of Bolt Action over the weekend which felt more like 40k than 40k, and will likely start playing that but historical gaming only gets you so far, and you don't have the customizability. I love the background of 40k, I even like the models (not the price, however). I can't stand GW, and from what I've read of the rules (I have 7th edition digital on my iPad) they are an absolute mess with too many random mechanics that aren't even good random like 2nd edition had.

So to answer your question, I frequent the forum to keep up with what's going on. There's a 40k community at my FLGS if I desired to play again (I just have things to assemble :p), just I have no love for GW or what they've done to the game. Sure, 40k was never really balanced but it sure as hell seemed more balanced pre-6th edition; not without its flaws, but GW at least then pretended to care - I recall some White Dwarfs from 2009 or so where they still talked about how things would impact tournament play and how they needed to keep things fairly balanced. At some point they just abandoned that completely and said screw it, let's just milk people for money until the jig is up.

PhantomViper wrote:

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:
If I'm a "White Knight" for liking 40k and GW as a company, then someone better get a squire in here. I need my armour polished! You have my support OP.

There have been GW haters since the begining. This idea that there was ever a time when everyone was cool with GW is a myth. Every codex, every new edition has always been met with cries of the sky falling, and it hasn't happened yet.

Tell that to the people currently trying to organize 40k tournaments around here, because most months they are unable to find enough people to meet the minimum number of players (4)... From where I'm standing, the sky has already fallen on GW's head.

Almost a worthless argument because:

1. Your area doesn't represent the 40k community as a whole.
2. The majority of GW players do not attend tournaments.

It'd probably help if all sides stopped using terms like GW haters and White knights.

I don't hate GW. I have plenty of issues, but I can still roll dice with my friends. I just feel like I'm enjoying the game in spite of the rules rather than because of them, in a simplified form.

It should be noted that being negative about the negativity isn't making the boards any less negative.

Unfortunately, discussions aren't math based, so two negatives don't make a positive.

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:
If I'm a "White Knight" for liking 40k and GW as a company, then someone better get a squire in here. I need my armour polished! You have my support OP.

There have been GW haters since the begining. This idea that there was ever a time when everyone was cool with GW is a myth. Every codex, every new edition has always been met with cries of the sky falling, and it hasn't happened yet.

Tell that to the people currently trying to organize 40k tournaments around here, because most months they are unable to find enough people to meet the minimum number of players (4)... From where I'm standing, the sky has already fallen on GW's head.

Almost a worthless argument because:

1. Your area doesn't represent the 40k community as a whole.
2. The majority of GW players do not attend tournaments.

At the same time though, the counter argument of "40k is booming in my area" is just as worthless. I think the 40k community *as a whole* is declining, slowly but surely.

Rompope wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I find it funny that in every thread like this, the "anti-GW" crowd put forth concise arguments that make sense... and the "anti-anti-GW" crowd come in with "Don't like it stop playing" and "Stop whining the game is great!" and similar anecdotes, and often turn hostile first.

Sorry for enjoying 40K and saying so instead of spewing forth enough hate to create a new 1d4chan.

Nobody is saying you can't enjoy 40k, but the "anti-anti-GW" crowd tend to not put any argument forth or even acknowledge that some people have issues. It's always "stop whining" or just dismissing anything saying 40k isn't great as "nerd rage" instead of seeing the point, even if you don't experience it yourself.

I see your point, I had your issues. I stopped playing for years. Not one peep about it from me, not a single complaint or whine. I damn sure didn't go onto an internet forum to express my emotional state about the game. What would that have even accomplished?

Those who are unhappy with GW and have stopped playing, honestly have no leg to stand on in this discussion as a whole imo, you quit long ago, why the hell are you even in a forum that is mostly for 40k? Not saying you can't talk about it, but why would you?

This forum isn't just for 40k, there is a whole bunch of sub-forums dedicated to other miniature wargames as well. I got into dakka when I was more heavilly invested in GW games, I still stay ehre because I'm now invested in those other wargames that Dakka also caters to.

I talk about how bad 40k and GW is, because this is a discussion forum and its basically fun to engage in such intellectual exercises (and I'm bored at work)(and in the vain hope that GW reads this and takes the games back to what they were in 5th ed 40k and 6th ed WHFB).

PhantomViper wrote:


Tell that to the people currently trying to organize 40k tournaments around here, because most months they are unable to find enough people to meet the minimum number of players (4)... From where I'm standing, the sky has already fallen on GW's head.

Same boat here. Even the initial low ball easy 1k tournaments to ease people into the new rule set. Either people didn't want to fork over $85 for the new book or just didn't care. We've had about 3 tournaments canceled since 7th was announced. Apathy is what will kill the game here.

I agree with the OP as well. It’s one thing if you buy a product, play a game, and want to discuss your negative feelings about it. You are an active member of the gaming community and you're contributing to that community in a constructive way. It’s nonsensical to go onto a gaming forum for a game you vehemently hate and DO NOT EVEN PLAY because you dislike it so much just to spew your dissatisfaction. It’s the very definition of a troll. To those people who dislike WH40K so much and have moved onto the Warhmahordes or whatever game strikes your fancy, that’s great. Stop clicking on the WH40K general discussion and go over to your forum. Stop wasting your time with a product you don't use, stop throwing in your two cents when you aren't even participating in the game anymore. It’s like an atheist attending church just so they can put down all the religious people attending.

I like Wh40k and I come to these forums to read about the hobby I enjoy. I don't like having to weed through posts in threads created by people who don't even play Wh40K so I can actually read something relevant to my hobby.

These are the mistakes GW has made with 40K in my opinion so far.

1) Making high quality model with tons of customisation options and posing and thus making them much more costly than other similar models. You can traduce that by assuming that a very large portion of their consumer are gamers who wants good looking pawns not high quality yet simple models.

2) Perpetual growth strategy. Since I started to play 40K 15 years ago, armies have gotten about 6 new entries each and there are now three new factions and keeps getting larger. Thus, balancing the game gets harder and harder.

3) Creating a rule system that want to be has sand box has possible. That forces the gaming community in forming gaming clubs with a defined vision of what a game of 40K should look like, what should an army list look like, what type of battle should be played etc. This especially hurt gamers without friends with similar opinions on the subject or with no friend in 40K at all.

4) Giving enough freedom to the player to allow them being stupid with their own game. The classic example would be Lords of War. You can bring them in small games now! That is so broken, there is no way I will kill it with my army and I don’t want to pay for a Lord of War myself! What will I do, this is bull****. Can they be fun to play with? Yes. Can they be fun to fight against? Yes, if the scenario is tailored for such a thing. The main issue is not the right to have them and use them but the way you use them. During the 19th century, duels were legal. You could use pistol or sword. The custom though was to let the offended choose the weapon and bring the same one. No one wants to duel a man with a gun with a sword after all. Same goes for 40K and for many it makes thing very complicated.

In the end, has competion gets harder and harder in that kind of niche hobbie, company have to find their spot to survive for they can't eat everybody. GW has choosen the path of least resistence. They want their tabletop game to look like a DnD game with more miniature. They want more freedom in the type of game you play. They want more modelist and collector oriented clients and not has much tournament style gamer. Supplements are mostly made for the latter, you can easily enjoy your game without them. This is why lots of people whine, because many of them got into 40K before this decision was made and they feel like they spent money on nothing. Sometime you can't win. But, tomorrow may be brighter for these persons.

 MWHistorian wrote:

I like your post and commend you on your positive attitude.
But the one thing I take issue is the highlighted part. Go back and read the posts of people coming in and calling everyone with a complaint mindless haters. Those are the apologists. People like you I have no beef with at all and I hope you continue to have fun and enjoy the hobby like I once did. I still love 40k, but I don't like what GW is doing to it. I'm hoping it will again return to something I can enjoy. (So I'm holding on to my SOB army I've been collecting since 2nd.)

Admittedly part of my comment was from what I viewed in the locked thread someone linked and another thread in gen chat.

I try to look at it objectively. If you don't like doing something, don't do it. It really is as simple as that. Nobody is forcing any of us to play the game. We willing choose to go out there and pay for models and paint and books and carrying cases. We can point out all the flaws in GW as a company until we are all blue in the face, but what is that actually going to do? You can literally feel the misery coming from some of these "Anti-GW" players. If the game really upsets you that much, take a step back. Don't just switch games, step back from wargaming as a whole, do something else for a while. Then, once you've cleared your head, come back and try again. If the issues are still there, maybe it's time to accept that 40k just isn't for you.

Rompope wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

I like your post and commend you on your positive attitude.
But the one thing I take issue is the highlighted part. Go back and read the posts of people coming in and calling everyone with a complaint mindless haters. Those are the apologists. People like you I have no beef with at all and I hope you continue to have fun and enjoy the hobby like I once did. I still love 40k, but I don't like what GW is doing to it. I'm hoping it will again return to something I can enjoy. (So I'm holding on to my SOB army I've been collecting since 2nd.)

Admittedly part of my comment was from what I viewed in the locked thread someone linked and another thread in gen chat.

I try to look at it objectively. If you don't like doing something, don't do it. It really is as simple as that. Nobody is forcing any of us to play the game. We willing choose to go out there and pay for models and paint and books and carrying cases. We can point out all the flaws in GW as a company until we are all blue in the face, but what is that actually going to do? You can literally feel the misery coming from some of these "Anti-GW" players. If the game really upsets you that much, take a step back. Don't just switch games, step back from wargaming as a whole, do something else for a while. Then, once you've cleared your head, come back and try again. If the issues are still there, maybe it's time to accept that 40k just isn't for you.

You see, this is a perfectly acceptable course of action, but haters can't leave it at that. They have to come in here and spew all of thier anti-GW garbage and actively try and turn people away from the game.

Rakur wrote:
I agree with the OP as well. It’s one thing if you buy a product, play a game, and want to discuss your negative feelings about it. You are an active member of the gaming community and you're contributing to that community in a constructive way. It’s nonsensical to go onto a gaming forum for a game you vehemently hate and DO NOT EVEN PLAY because you dislike it so much just to spew your dissatisfaction. It’s the very definition of a troll. To those people who dislike WH40K so much and have moved onto the Warhmahordes or whatever game strikes your fancy, that’s great. Stop clicking on the WH40K general discussion and go over to your forum. Stop wasting your time with a product you don't use, stop throwing in your two cents when you aren't even participating in the game anymore. It’s like an atheist attending church just so they can put down all the religious people attending.

I like Wh40k and I come to these forums to read about the hobby I enjoy. I don't like having to weed through posts in threads created by people who don't even play Wh40K so I can actually read something relevant to my hobby.

I would contra pose that if the idea that some people don't share the same opinion as your own on a gaming forum disturbs you so much, then maybe a forum that prides itself on having as many disparaging views as Dakka does isn't really for you? Maybe you should instead join some of those forums out there that have a much stricter view on GW products like B&P perhaps?

Also 40k isn't a hobby, its just a product in the much larger and broader miniature wargaming hobby.

PhantomViper wrote:


This forum isn't just for 40k, there is a whole bunch of sub-forums dedicated to other miniature wargames as well. I got into dakka when I was more heavilly invested in GW games, I still stay ehre because I'm now invested in those other wargames that Dakka also caters to.

I talk about how bad 40k and GW is, because this is a discussion forum and its basically fun to engage in such intellectual exercises (and I'm bored at work)(and in the vain hope that GW reads this and takes the games back to what they were in 5th ed 40k and 6th ed WHFB).

I said mostly 40k. Look at the overall thread/post count, its a Warhammer forum

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

You see, this is a perfectly acceptable course of action, but haters can't leave it at that. They have to come in here and spew all of thier anti-GW garbage and actively try and turn people away from the game.

Ad-hominem attacks like those sure make the forum a better place to be!

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

You see, this is a perfectly acceptable course of action, but haters can't leave it at that. They have to come in here and spew all of thier anti-GW garbage and actively try and turn people away from the game.

I'd like to see you quote someone that said that. That someone turned someone away from 40K just because it's a GW game and not for a valid reason such as starting cost and the trend of the system.

Rompope wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:


This forum isn't just for 40k, there is a whole bunch of sub-forums dedicated to other miniature wargames as well. I got into dakka when I was more heavilly invested in GW games, I still stay ehre because I'm now invested in those other wargames that Dakka also caters to.

I talk about how bad 40k and GW is, because this is a discussion forum and its basically fun to engage in such intellectual exercises (and I'm bored at work)(and in the vain hope that GW reads this and takes the games back to what they were in 5th ed 40k and 6th ed WHFB).

I said mostly 40k. Look at the overall thread/post count, its a Warhammer forum

I think you'll find that yakface disagrees with you.

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:


You see, this is a perfectly acceptable course of action, but haters can't leave it at that. They have to come in here and spew all of thier anti-GW garbage and actively try and turn people away from the game.

For starters, don't call them haters, you're not going to get anywhere if all you do is insult them. But you are correct, them coming on here to vent their feelings after they have left the game does nothing but stoke the fires and cause drama. If you leave, leave completely. Actively trying to stop others from playing a game they may enjoy because you have stopped enjoying it, there is where they cross the line. People need to be free to experience and choose their own paths in life. Those who are upset with GW need to let new players decide for themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PhantomViper wrote:


I think you'll find that yakface disagrees with you.

I don't know who Yakface is, nor do I care. The numbers are right there to show that the majority of conversation is about Warhammer. He can disagree all he wants, but the facts are facts.

Rompope wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

I like your post and commend you on your positive attitude.
But the one thing I take issue is the highlighted part. Go back and read the posts of people coming in and calling everyone with a complaint mindless haters. Those are the apologists. People like you I have no beef with at all and I hope you continue to have fun and enjoy the hobby like I once did. I still love 40k, but I don't like what GW is doing to it. I'm hoping it will again return to something I can enjoy. (So I'm holding on to my SOB army I've been collecting since 2nd.)

Admittedly part of my comment was from what I viewed in the locked thread someone linked and another thread in gen chat.

I try to look at it objectively. If you don't like doing something, don't do it. It really is as simple as that. Nobody is forcing any of us to play the game. We willing choose to go out there and pay for models and paint and books and carrying cases. We can point out all the flaws in GW as a company until we are all blue in the face, but what is that actually going to do? You can literally feel the misery coming from some of these "Anti-GW" players. If the game really upsets you that much, take a step back. Don't just switch games, step back from wargaming as a whole, do something else for a while. Then, once you've cleared your head, come back and try again. If the issues are still there, maybe it's time to accept that 40k just isn't for you.

I switched games and I'm having the best gaming experience I've had since 2nd edition. I'm actually excited about these new games.
But like I said previously, I hope that GW turns it around. I still love 40k and like a criminal, I want to see them get better but until they do, I'm not going to trust them.
As for making the game better. We hope someone at GW will take notice or the backlash will turn to something economical that they actually will listen to.

Again, thank you for not just insulting me. It's a low bar, but surprisingly rare to achieve.

Also, I will actively steer new players away to better games because I don't think a sound chamber of yes-men is healthy either. They should know the pros, but also the cons of a new game that's very expensive.

 MWHistorian wrote:


Again, thank you for not just insulting me. It's a low bar, but surprisingly rare to achieve.

Also, I will actively steer new players away to better games because I don't think a sound chamber of yes-men is healthy either. They should know the pros, but also the cons of a new game that's very expensive.

Oh do indeed show them the pros and the cons, but don't talk them out of it, do it objectively. I came back with 7th because my friends said they had more missions and a new Ork codex. I like the new design, but I think I'm like one of 10 who actually like it on these forums

 MWHistorian wrote:
Also, I will actively steer new players away to better games because I don't think a sound chamber of yes-men is healthy either. They should know the pros, but also the cons of a new game that's very expensive.

That's an important thing as well; most "anti-GW" people don't just say "40k sucks don't play it" they present pros and cons, so it's up to the new person to decide for themselves. Some might not care, some might look at the price of the figures and go "no way!".

Generally though the pros tend to boil down to "Pretty figures" and "Detailed background", and most everything else is subjective, while there's a lot of cons to be said. In general 40k's rules are pretty poor overall; not to say you can't have fun with them, but from strictly a games design POV they're bad.

Rompope wrote:
... them coming on here to vent their feelings after they have left the game does nothing but stoke the fires and cause drama. If you leave, leave completely.

many people still have armies, even if they don't play, or are interested in coming back if GW can change it's direction. The best way for that change is community action and not supporting bad purchases like the supplement rules on day of release.

Actively trying to stop others from playing a game they may enjoy because you have stopped enjoying it, there is where they cross the line.

you were doing so well up to this point. Quote one person that wants others to stop enjoying the game. Just one. Nobody has EVER said that.

People need to be free to experience and choose their own paths in life. Those who are upset with GW need to let new players decide for themselves.

This is actually really dishonest. Information is not a bad thing. Hearing reasons on why someone doesn't like the game can help people understand more about it and not necessarily chase them away. If I truthfully describe the negative things about the game and even explain the good parts of it to a potential customer and it chases them away, it's not my fault. If I tell someone as they pick up a battle force kit that honestly he'd need 2-3 more to field a decent sized army and that some items in it aren't that useful or that he'll need to pick up a supplement book to really have a good army, is it wrong that I'm informing them of the ramping cost to actually have a starting army?

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Rompope wrote:
... them coming on here to vent their feelings after they have left the game does nothing but stoke the fires and cause drama. If you leave, leave completely.

many people still have armies, even if they don't play, or are interested in coming back if GW can change it's direction. The best way for that change is community action and not supporting bad purchases like the supplement rules on day of release.

Actively trying to stop others from playing a game they may enjoy because you have stopped enjoying it, there is where they cross the line.

you were doing so well up to this point. Quote one person that wants others to stop enjoying the game. Just one. Nobody has EVER said that.

People need to be free to experience and choose their own paths in life. Those who are upset with GW need to let new players decide for themselves.

This is actually really dishonest. Information is not a bad thing. Hearing reasons on why someone doesn't like the game can help people understand more about it and not necessarily chase them away. If I truthfully describe the negative things about the game and even explain the good parts of it to a potential customer and it chases them away, it's not my fault. If I tell someone as they pick up a battle force kit that honestly he'd need 2-3 more to field a decent sized army and that some items in it aren't that useful or that he'll need to pick up a supplement book to really have a good army, is it wrong that I'm informing them of the ramping cost to actually have a starting army?

Except the negative things you describe are merely your opinion. Outside of initial cost to get in, everything else is merely an opinion. I've seen many players walk away with a Battleforce and just play with that no problem so the additional costs are not a guarantee.

I also never said anyone was stopping players from enjoying it, you are misinterpreting what I said. "Actively trying to stop others from playing a game they may enjoy because you have stopped enjoying it, there is where they cross the line." Nowhere in that sentence do I say you are trying to stop them from enjoying the game, I said you are trying to stop them from playing a game.

The "supplements" you speak of are debatable, to some they are supplements, to others they are codices. This is merely an opinion

Rompope wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Rompope wrote:
... them coming on here to vent their feelings after they have left the game does nothing but stoke the fires and cause drama. If you leave, leave completely.

many people still have armies, even if they don't play, or are interested in coming back if GW can change it's direction. The best way for that change is community action and not supporting bad purchases like the supplement rules on day of release.

Actively trying to stop others from playing a game they may enjoy because you have stopped enjoying it, there is where they cross the line.

you were doing so well up to this point. Quote one person that wants others to stop enjoying the game. Just one. Nobody has EVER said that.

People need to be free to experience and choose their own paths in life. Those who are upset with GW need to let new players decide for themselves.

This is actually really dishonest. Information is not a bad thing. Hearing reasons on why someone doesn't like the game can help people understand more about it and not necessarily chase them away. If I truthfully describe the negative things about the game and even explain the good parts of it to a potential customer and it chases them away, it's not my fault. If I tell someone as they pick up a battle force kit that honestly he'd need 2-3 more to field a decent sized army and that some items in it aren't that useful or that he'll need to pick up a supplement book to really have a good army, is it wrong that I'm informing them of the ramping cost to actually have a starting army?

Except the negative things you describe are merely your opinion. Outside of initial cost to get in, everything else is merely an opinion. I've seen many players walk away with a Battleforce and just play with that no problem so the additional costs are not a guarantee.

I also never said anyone was stopping players from enjoying it, you are misinterpreting what I said. "Actively trying to stop others from playing a game they may enjoy because you have stopped enjoying it, there is where they cross the line." Nowhere in that sentence do I say you are trying to stop them from enjoying the game, I said you are trying to stop them from playing a game.

The "supplements" you speak of are debatable, to some they are supplements, to others they are codices. This is merely an opinion

And a new player should hear these opinions and decide for themselves. No one's trying to stop people from playing or even enjoying. If you do, good on you. But players, new and old, should be at least aware of (and hopefully understand) the problems others are having with the game.

That's the issue. They're your problems. Not everyone has them. It would be unfair to have one side spout all the negativity about the game and not the good stuff, you would basically make up their minds for them.

When you get down to it, people are sheep and they go to whoever Baaaaa's the loudest.

Rompope wrote:
That's the issue. They're your problems. Not everyone has them. It would be unfair to have one side spout all the negativity about the game and not the good stuff, you would basically make up their minds for them.

When you get down to it, people are sheep and they go to whoever Baaaaa's the loudest.

But many people seem to be having the same problems, so something should be addressed.

 MWHistorian wrote:

Rompope wrote:
That's the issue. They're your problems. Not everyone has them. It would be unfair to have one side spout all the negativity about the game and not the good stuff, you would basically make up their minds for them.

When you get down to it, people are sheep and they go to whoever Baaaaa's the loudest.

But many people seem to be having the same problems, so something should be addressed.

Then that's their problem. You have to be objective if you want people to make their own choices because they will follow whatever side the majority is on wherever they decide to buy. Hopefully they don't stop by Dakka before buying as then GW really would go out of business.

 MWHistorian wrote:

Rompope wrote:
That's the issue. They're your problems. Not everyone has them. It would be unfair to have one side spout all the negativity about the game and not the good stuff, you would basically make up their minds for them.

When you get down to it, people are sheep and they go to whoever Baaaaa's the loudest.

But many people seem to be having the same problems, so something should be addressed.

We're all just whining, remember?

Seriously though, the right thing to do is to tell anyone who is considering 40k the pros and cons, so they can make an informed decision. There *are* a lot of cons with 40k, regardless of whether people experience them or not. A new player needs to know what they're getting into, especially when there are so many other games out there that have cheaper figures and/or better rules.

Rompope wrote:
That's the issue. They're your problems. Not everyone has them. It would be unfair to have one side spout all the negativity about the game and not the good stuff, you would basically make up their minds for them.

When you get down to it, people are sheep and they go to whoever Baaaaa's the loudest.

So the next time that you see someone criticizing 40k or GW, interject your own logical counterpoints and then we can all have a rational discussion about the pros and cons of the system.

Rompope wrote:


Then that's their problem. You have to be objective if you want people to make their own choices because they will follow whatever side the majority is on wherever they decide to buy. Hopefully they don't stop by Dakka before buying as then GW really would go out of business.

I'm hoping people who get into this hobby make decisions based on their own analysis, not just peer pressure.

I'm also assuming these people are adults capable of independent thought.

Rompope wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

Rompope wrote:
That's the issue. They're your problems. Not everyone has them. It would be unfair to have one side spout all the negativity about the game and not the good stuff, you would basically make up their minds for them.

When you get down to it, people are sheep and they go to whoever Baaaaa's the loudest.

But many people seem to be having the same problems, so something should be addressed.

Then that's their problem. You have to be objective if you want people to make their own choices because they will follow whatever side the majority is on wherever they decide to buy. Hopefully they don't stop by Dakka before buying as then GW really would go out of business.

I would consider it "OUR" problem. As a community, we're sick. Many many people are having trouble with 40k and because you're doing fine with it doesn't mean those problems don't exist. If GW cared about the 40k community, they would address some of the problems and try to fix it. That's on GW's head.

 Blacksails wrote:

Rompope wrote:


Then that's their problem. You have to be objective if you want people to make their own choices because they will follow whatever side the majority is on wherever they decide to buy. Hopefully they don't stop by Dakka before buying as then GW really would go out of business.

I'm hoping people who get into this hobby make decisions based on their own analysis, not just peer pressure.

I'm also assuming these people are adults capable of independent thought.

At least 3 of the major anti-gw contributors to this thread have already admitted to not even trying the new rules. Does that make their opinion less valid? ...to me, yes, but they are still entitled to it.

Like I said, if you've come here looking for a reasonable discussion, you've come to the wrong place.

As a note there's a *HUGE* difference between "I understand you have a problem, but I don't have that problem" and "Because I have no problem, there is no problem and anyone claiming there is a problem is just a whiner"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gunzhard wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

Rompope wrote:


Then that's their problem. You have to be objective if you want people to make their own choices because they will follow whatever side the majority is on wherever they decide to buy. Hopefully they don't stop by Dakka before buying as then GW really would go out of business.

I'm hoping people who get into this hobby make decisions based on their own analysis, not just peer pressure.

I'm also assuming these people are adults capable of independent thought.

At least 3 of the major anti-gw contributors to this thread have already admitted to not even trying the new rules. Does that make their opinion less valid? ...to me, yes, but they are still entitled to it.

Like I said, if you've come here looking for a reasonable discussion, you've come to the wrong place.

And once again, one can read the rules and see what's good or bad without "trying" them. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to read something and determine if it's a good rule or a bad rule.

IMO the negativity stems from the internet.

If you like any kind of gaming, and enjoy the game you play for the army/class/whatever do not read forums about it. Any forums that are discussion based tend towards the negative about any form of gaming.

I would suggest only checking out model/painting forums and you will find a lot less negativity.

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:
If I'm a "White Knight" for liking 40k and GW as a company, then someone better get a squire in here. I need my armour polished! You have my support OP.

There have been GW haters since the begining. This idea that there was ever a time when everyone was cool with GW is a myth. Every codex, every new edition has always been met with cries of the sky falling, and it hasn't happened yet.

Tell that to the people currently trying to organize 40k tournaments around here, because most months they are unable to find enough people to meet the minimum number of players (4)... From where I'm standing, the sky has already fallen on GW's head.

Almost a worthless argument because:

1. Your area doesn't represent the 40k community as a whole.
2. The majority of GW players do not attend tournaments.

That would've been almost relevant as a counterpoint for my argument if I hadn't added the "From where I'm standing" to my post. I know that my area doesn't represent the 40k community as a whole, but I don't care about the 40k community as a whole if I don't have anyone to play with in my meta.

Also I know that the majority of 40k players don't attend tournaments, but back in 5th edition all the store tournaments were almost always fully booked and there were even waiting lists some times. The fact that now those same tournaments most times can't even get a minimum quorum of players is just another symptom of the decline of 40k, again, in my area.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:
IMO the negativity stems from the internet.

If you like any kind of gaming, and enjoy the game you play for the army/class/whatever do not read forums about it. Any forums that are discussion based tend towards the negative about any form of gaming.

I would suggest only checking out model/painting forums and you will find a lot less negativity.

Funny, I actively read forums for WMH, Netrunner and X-Wing and I've never found this overwhelming negativity that you find so prevailing in the internet.

Agreed, on the PP forum it's very positive. Even complaints and criticisms are taken positively because there's a chance they'll actually get addressed instead of ignored.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Agreed, on the PP forum it's very positive. Even complaints and criticisms are taken positively because there's a chance they'll actually get addressed instead of ignored.

This. I mean there are complaints, but it's A) Not nearly the level of vehemence you find on virtually every 40k forum, and B) The company actually might listen because the designers frequent the forums and listen to complaints.

GW alone pretends there are no complaints, shut down all the ways to communicate to them, and just trots out this bullgak about "forge the narrative" which basically comes down to "The game is fine, you're just playing wrong" to address issues.

PhantomViper wrote:

Rakur wrote:
I agree with the OP as well. It’s one thing if you buy a product, play a game, and want to discuss your negative feelings about it. You are an active member of the gaming community and you're contributing to that community in a constructive way. It’s nonsensical to go onto a gaming forum for a game you vehemently hate and DO NOT EVEN PLAY because you dislike it so much just to spew your dissatisfaction. It’s the very definition of a troll. To those people who dislike WH40K so much and have moved onto the Warhmahordes or whatever game strikes your fancy, that’s great. Stop clicking on the WH40K general discussion and go over to your forum. Stop wasting your time with a product you don't use, stop throwing in your two cents when you aren't even participating in the game anymore. It’s like an atheist attending church just so they can put down all the religious people attending.

I like Wh40k and I come to these forums to read about the hobby I enjoy. I don't like having to weed through posts in threads created by people who don't even play Wh40K so I can actually read something relevant to my hobby.

I would contra pose that if the idea that some people don't share the same opinion as your own on a gaming forum disturbs you so much, then maybe a forum that prides itself on having as many disparaging views as Dakka does isn't really for you? Maybe you should instead join some of those forums out there that have a much stricter view on GW products like B&P perhaps?

Also 40k isn't a hobby, its just a product in the much larger and broader miniature wargaming hobby.

First, to suggest 40k isn't a hobby is silly. Sure, it may be a subgenre of miniature wargaming in general, which is a subgenre of table top gaming, which is a subgenre of the gaming hobby as a whole. Its still MY hobby. No need to pick apart my word choices.

Second, I have no problem with people having a negative view of things as I stated in the very first sentence of my post. The idea that someone who doesn't even participate in WH40k coming onto forums SPECIFICALLY for WH40K is what I find frustrating.

Rakur wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

Rakur wrote:
I agree with the OP as well. It’s one thing if you buy a product, play a game, and want to discuss your negative feelings about it. You are an active member of the gaming community and you're contributing to that community in a constructive way. It’s nonsensical to go onto a gaming forum for a game you vehemently hate and DO NOT EVEN PLAY because you dislike it so much just to spew your dissatisfaction. It’s the very definition of a troll. To those people who dislike WH40K so much and have moved onto the Warhmahordes or whatever game strikes your fancy, that’s great. Stop clicking on the WH40K general discussion and go over to your forum. Stop wasting your time with a product you don't use, stop throwing in your two cents when you aren't even participating in the game anymore. It’s like an atheist attending church just so they can put down all the religious people attending.

I like Wh40k and I come to these forums to read about the hobby I enjoy. I don't like having to weed through posts in threads created by people who don't even play Wh40K so I can actually read something relevant to my hobby.

I would contra pose that if the idea that some people don't share the same opinion as your own on a gaming forum disturbs you so much, then maybe a forum that prides itself on having as many disparaging views as Dakka does isn't really for you? Maybe you should instead join some of those forums out there that have a much stricter view on GW products like B&P perhaps?

Also 40k isn't a hobby, its just a product in the much larger and broader miniature wargaming hobby.

First, to suggest 40k isn't a hobby is silly. Sure, it may be a subgenre of miniature wargaming in general, which is a subgenre of table top gaming, which is a subgenre of the gaming hobby as a whole. Its still MY hobby. No need to pick apart my word choices.

Second, I have no problem with people having a negative view of things as I stated in the very first sentence of my post. The idea that someone who doesn't even participate in WH40k coming onto forums SPECIFICALLY for WH40K is what I find frustrating.

I think basically everyone, including myself, voicing our complaints are ex-40k players, who would likely come back if the game was fixed. That should give our view more credence because any smart business (which GW is not...) should want to know why customers have left and how they could get them back.

It's sad, really. In less than a week I have personally witnessed about half a dozen a active members of this forum openly admit their sole purpose for even posting is to deter prospective customers or sabotage anyone's potential enjoyment in the game.

That is the very definition of trolling, and is no different than someone commenting on a random IGN article and belittling Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo.

When did trolling become an acceptable course of action?

You say you 'hang around with the hope GW will listen, or things will change'. Fine, you can hold out hope and hope for the best, but waiting for change has never required spouting propaganda or trolling people that have genuine interest or are active participants in the hobby.

XenosTerminus wrote:
It's sad, really. In less than a week I have personally witnessed about half a dozen a active members of this forum openly admit their sole purpose for even posting is to deter prospective customers or sabotage anyone's potential enjoyment in the game.

That is the very definition of trolling, and is no different than someone commenting on a random IGN article and belittling Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo.

When did trolling become an acceptable course of action?

You say you 'hang around with the hope GW will listen, or things will change'. Fine, you can hold out hope and hope for the best, but waiting for change has never required spouting propaganda or trolling people that have genuine interest or are active participants in the hobby.

It's not even close to a troll really. A troll posts inflammatory or off topic remarks in the hopes of getting an emotional response and/or derailing everything.

That and it sounds very flawed to go hey, if you don't like it just get out entirely. Most individuals liked the game, most would play it if it didn't have so many drawbacks. For example, I'm critical of 40k. It's flawed, the rules are atrocious, they never get improved, the prices are, frankly, ridiculous, it has day one DLC, cheap tactics to fool people into buying wastes, has unequal pricing especially against Australians, has been known for senseless sues that cripple the most minor of individuals (Space Marine), and punish players for some company that produced models for units they didn't sell. So what do they do? Remove them from existence entirely. FLGS, they make it more difficult. That by no means doesn't equal it being nonredeemable. The fluff of the world, although contradictory, grimderp, and goofy, is unique in how they literally grabbed everything and mashed them all together. Despite there being four codices that are basically the same thing with 6 being SM of some form and with 7 wearing Power Armour, it has a vast diversity still. The models are customize-able and, more often than not, look good. The setting has such traction that I purchased the RPG books and simply make up stories to play in the future. Really, there's a lot to love. There is also, however, a lot to hate.

As per myself, I'm caught in that point where I'm not sure what to do. My last buttons have been pressed and I'm upset at GW for a variety of reasons, I'm expanding to other wargames, yet I can't seem to let go 40k. If I play again I probably will tear apart the rules and codices and rebuild it with my group because I admit, the chances of GW trying to improve anything is very slim yet if I continue with the rules I'll be picking armies that are so horrendous that I basically hand the victory to my enemy which is frankly dull. I hate all the randomness. I want to forge the narrative but in a way where two players build a list fitting their own fluff and then clash, fighting violently util the end. No tables until turn 5 or 6, hard fought, tense. Those are my favorite games. Those are the ones I want to write about. Not my KSons being stomped again but aha I obviously had a secret objective. And, as mentioned, I bloody love the fluff so I enjoy that part All that said, while I like 40k, I will not endorse GW.

XenosTerminus wrote:
It's sad, really. In less than a week I have personally witnessed about half a dozen a active members of this forum openly admit their sole purpose for even posting is to deter prospective customers or sabotage anyone's potential enjoyment in the game.

That is the very definition of trolling, and is no different than someone commenting on a random IGN article and belittling Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo.

When did trolling become an acceptable course of action?

You say you 'hang around with the hope GW will listen, or things will change'. Fine, you can hold out hope and hope for the best, but waiting for change has never required spouting propaganda or trolling people that have genuine interest or are active participants in the hobby.

Again cannot speak for others, but I don't consider it "propaganda" to tell a prospective player the pros and cons of starting 40k. I tell people who ask about starting 40k to understand that it's rather poorly written (as far as rules go), ranges from overpowered to outright garbage depending on what you play and what you want to field so you typically need to research unless you want to risk picking the wrong unit that "looks cool" but plays badly, and costs several hundred dollars to start at a reasonable level beyond trivial demo games. I also point out the rich lore, the feel/flavor of the armies and the models, and the fact that 40k can be lots of fun if you play in a meta that embraces it as a fun game and not a competitive one. However, I also point out the flaws of the rules and how other games are much more enjoyable to play, are generally quicker and often cost less at least at the early stages.

That's not "trolling" to me, that's giving somebody the information they need to decide if the pros of 40k outweigh the cons.

XenosTerminus wrote:
It's sad, really. In less than a week I have personally witnessed about half a dozen a active members of this forum openly admit their sole purpose for even posting is to deter prospective customers or sabotage anyone's potential enjoyment in the game.

That is the very definition of trolling, and is no different than someone commenting on a random IGN article and belittling Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo.

When did trolling become an acceptable course of action?

You say you 'hang around with the hope GW will listen, or things will change'. Fine, you can hold out hope and hope for the best, but waiting for change has never required spouting propaganda or trolling people that have genuine interest or are active participants in the hobby.

You misinterpreted the purpose. It's not to sabotage enjoyment, but to deter new players from starting 40k. No one has a problem with people enjoying the game. If you do, that's fine. I wish I still did.

 MWHistorian wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:
It's sad, really. In less than a week I have personally witnessed about half a dozen a active members of this forum openly admit their sole purpose for even posting is to deter prospective customers or sabotage anyone's potential enjoyment in the game.

That is the very definition of trolling, and is no different than someone commenting on a random IGN article and belittling Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo.

When did trolling become an acceptable course of action?

You say you 'hang around with the hope GW will listen, or things will change'. Fine, you can hold out hope and hope for the best, but waiting for change has never required spouting propaganda or trolling people that have genuine interest or are active participants in the hobby.

You misinterpreted the purpose. It's not to sabotage enjoyment, but to deter new players from starting 40k. No one has a problem with people enjoying the game. If you do, that's fine. I wish I still did.

Constant negativity is sabotage to basically any activity. It's a massive blow to morale, regardless if there is merit to the issues at hand or not.

I am not suggesting people should blatantly ignore issues, if they have them. On the contrary. I, among many other people here, have suggested if there are so many issues with the game you need to find a solution or disenfranchise yourself completely. Yes, that also means from random forum discussions.

Also, if your goal is to prevent new players from starting 40k based on YOUR opinions on what is wrong with the game, this is similar to someone solely deciding whether to purchase a video game or not simply because of a numerical score given by a few media outlets/opinions- that is one perspective, and tastes differ. They very well could be passing up a gem they will find a ton of enjoyment from simply because they listened to the wrong people and did not try it for themselves.

XenosTerminus wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:
It's sad, really. In less than a week I have personally witnessed about half a dozen a active members of this forum openly admit their sole purpose for even posting is to deter prospective customers or sabotage anyone's potential enjoyment in the game.

That is the very definition of trolling, and is no different than someone commenting on a random IGN article and belittling Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo.

When did trolling become an acceptable course of action?

You say you 'hang around with the hope GW will listen, or things will change'. Fine, you can hold out hope and hope for the best, but waiting for change has never required spouting propaganda or trolling people that have genuine interest or are active participants in the hobby.

You misinterpreted the purpose. It's not to sabotage enjoyment, but to deter new players from starting 40k. No one has a problem with people enjoying the game. If you do, that's fine. I wish I still did.

Constant negativity is sabotage to basically any activity. It's a massive blow to morale, regardless if there is merit to the issues at hand or not.

I am not suggesting people should blatantly ignore issues, if they have them. On the contrary. I, among many other people here, have suggested if there are so many issues with the game you need to find a solution or disenfranchise yourself completely. Yes, that also means from random forum discussions.

Also, if your goal is to prevent new players from starting 40k based on YOUR opinions on what is wrong with the game, this is similar to someone solely deciding whether to purchase a video game or not simply because of a numerical score given by a few media outlets/opinions- that is one perspective, and tastes differ. They very well could be passing up a gem they will find a ton of enjoyment from simply because they listened to the wrong people and did not try it for themselves.

Scroll up a bit, we already had that discussion. Page 4, I believe.

XenosTerminus wrote:

Constant negativity is sabotage to basically any activity. It's a massive blow to morale, regardless if there is merit to the issues at hand or not.

SO are you saying we should be happy regardless for the sake of being happy?

you need to find a solution or disenfranchise yourself completely. Yes, that also means from random forum discussions.

That's a terrible stance. If the company won't listen to your issue, rather than discussing it like reasonable adults in a forum, you should drop the game entirely and forget it ever happened? That some how a player can't comment in the forum about a system they used to enjoy and explain why they left in a relevant thread?

if your goal is to prevent new players from starting 40k based on YOUR opinions on what is wrong with the game

There is a difference between giving someone the information to make an informed opinion and chasing them from the store with pitchforks. If I say that I don't enjoy the game because Tau went from being a bottom tier army to what people consider an overpowered nightmare and don't want to play because of my army choice and that this happens for lots of people when their dex gets updated, is that giving my opinion on the current situation or am I running them out of the store?

 MWHistorian wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:
It's sad, really. In less than a week I have personally witnessed about half a dozen a active members of this forum openly admit their sole purpose for even posting is to deter prospective customers or sabotage anyone's potential enjoyment in the game.

That is the very definition of trolling, and is no different than someone commenting on a random IGN article and belittling Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo.

When did trolling become an acceptable course of action?

You say you 'hang around with the hope GW will listen, or things will change'. Fine, you can hold out hope and hope for the best, but waiting for change has never required spouting propaganda or trolling people that have genuine interest or are active participants in the hobby.
I

You misinterpreted the purpose. It's not to sabotage enjoyment, but to deter new players from starting 40k. No one has a problem with people enjoying the game. If you do, that's fine. I wish I still did.

Preventing new players from starting 40K is helping whom? To me this is disgusting and petty.

Outside of this bubble Dakka has a worse reputation than GW, I never knew why until I started reading these threads. It is mostly the same handful of people that haven't even attempted to play 40k in years, that hate 40k that they're not playing and are upset at GW for not listening to their valued opinions.

Hating GW is fine with me, but preventing new players from starting is not in my book.

 Gunzhard wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:
It's sad, really. In less than a week I have personally witnessed about half a dozen a active members of this forum openly admit their sole purpose for even posting is to deter prospective customers or sabotage anyone's potential enjoyment in the game.

That is the very definition of trolling, and is no different than someone commenting on a random IGN article and belittling Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo.

When did trolling become an acceptable course of action?

You say you 'hang around with the hope GW will listen, or things will change'. Fine, you can hold out hope and hope for the best, but waiting for change has never required spouting propaganda or trolling people that have genuine interest or are active participants in the hobby.
I

You misinterpreted the purpose. It's not to sabotage enjoyment, but to deter new players from starting 40k. No one has a problem with people enjoying the game. If you do, that's fine. I wish I still did.

Preventing new players from starting 40K is helping whom? To me this is disgusting and petty.

Outside of this bubble Dakka has a worse reputation than GW, I never knew why until I started reading these threads. It is mostly the same handful of people that haven't even attempted to play 40k in years, that hate 40k that they're not playing and are upset at GW for not listening to their valued opinions.

Hating GW is fine with me, but preventing new players from starting is not in my book.

And you keep going on and on about how horrible Dakka is. Why are you here?
And how is it disgusting to steer a new player to a better game that will be cheaper and more enjoyable?

 MWHistorian wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:
It's sad, really. In less than a week I have personally witnessed about half a dozen a active members of this forum openly admit their sole purpose for even posting is to deter prospective customers or sabotage anyone's potential enjoyment in the game.

That is the very definition of trolling, and is no different than someone commenting on a random IGN article and belittling Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo.

When did trolling become an acceptable course of action?

You say you 'hang around with the hope GW will listen, or things will change'. Fine, you can hold out hope and hope for the best, but waiting for change has never required spouting propaganda or trolling people that have genuine interest or are active participants in the hobby.

You misinterpreted the purpose. It's not to sabotage enjoyment, but to deter new players from starting 40k. No one has a problem with people enjoying the game. If you do, that's fine. I wish I still did.

Constant negativity is sabotage to basically any activity. It's a massive blow to morale, regardless if there is merit to the issues at hand or not.

I am not suggesting people should blatantly ignore issues, if they have them. On the contrary. I, among many other people here, have suggested if there are so many issues with the game you need to find a solution or disenfranchise yourself completely. Yes, that also means from random forum discussions.

Also, if your goal is to prevent new players from starting 40k based on YOUR opinions on what is wrong with the game, this is similar to someone solely deciding whether to purchase a video game or not simply because of a numerical score given by a few media outlets/opinions- that is one perspective, and tastes differ. They very well could be passing up a gem they will find a ton of enjoyment from simply because they listened to the wrong people and did not try it for themselves.

Scroll up a bit, we already had that discussion. Page 4, I believe.

I read it, but it doesn't really change anything.

The only barrier to entry for most people is the price point. I think everyone can agree on that point. Beyond that, however, is entirely personal experience and preference.

Instead of telling someone they shouldn't get into 40k, and then following to cite opinions (not facts) about rules, balance, etc.. give them a demo game. Maybe, just maybe, they won't find issues with the rules like you do. Perhaps they will actually like the way the current edition was designed (this is a major point of contention for new or prospective players- they have no point of reference with old editions or rules, or how old codexes were designed).

What if they like the current product? Any anecdotal or nostalgic ranting about how the game has changed is irrelevant. All they care about is if the game, in its current form, is enjoyable.

This is what many of you do not seem to understand. It's clear GW has changed its marketing strategy- it probably doesn't suit the majority of you, or even me. Instead of trying to steer people away from a product that IS enjoyable for a lot of people, even in its current iteration despite its many flaws, try to be a little less negative.

Don't take pleasure in ruining other peoples enjoyment in something because you no longer find any in it. It just makes you look like bitter old men.

 Gunzhard wrote:


Preventing new players from starting 40K is helping whom? To me this is disgusting and petty.

This is a several hundred dollar investment, if not thousands. Not counting time for modeling and painting. This is disgusting to inform people of the status of the game?!
Do you not have faith that someone can make an informed decision with opinions and facts laid infront of them? We aren't chaining ourselves to the register to prevent purchases. We tell them "Hey, it has balance issues and you're going to need to drop like $500 to get started and it ramps up from there." How is this disgusting or petty?!

I still fail to see how I'm ruining peoples' enjoyment by showing them better games.

XenosTerminus wrote:
All they care about is if the game, in its current form, is enjoyable.

What better way to give them insight than to give an opinion of it, as a fan and former or current player? How is giving them extra knowledge of something prior to purchase a bad thing? GW likes making these things with a "buy now, find out later" approach. Why should that stop me from informing a potential customer of the good and bad with the game.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I still fail to see how I'm ruining peoples' enjoyment by showing them better games.

How many hundreds of your anti-gw posts must I go through to find where you're 'showing them better games' than the game you aren't even attempting to try?

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:


Preventing new players from starting 40K is helping whom? To me this is disgusting and petty.

This is a several hundred dollar investment, if not thousands. Not counting time for modeling and painting. This is disgusting to inform people of the status of the game?!
Do you not have faith that someone can make an informed decision with opinions and facts laid infront of them? We aren't chaining ourselves to the register to prevent purchases. We tell them "Hey, it has balance issues and you're going to need to drop like $500 to get started and it ramps up from there." How is this disgusting or petty?!

Except, based on how many of you state your opinions and vocalize the state of the game here on dakka, I seriously doubt you would word it that way, let alone stop there.

I envision it sounding something more like this:
"Hey I heard you play 40k, or used to play it. I was thinking about starting up an army. What can you tell me?"
"GW only cares about your money, is a horrible company, makes irrational and poor decisions seemingly randomly, doesn't know how to balance rules, and wrights poorly written shoddy excuses for rules. I don't play it anymore"

"Oh.. um. OK"

 Savageconvoy wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:
All they care about is if the game, in its current form, is enjoyable.

What better way to give them insight than to give an opinion of it, as a fan and former or current player? How is giving them extra knowledge of something prior to purchase a bad thing? GW likes making these things with a "buy now, find out later" approach. Why should that stop me from informing a potential customer of the good and bad with the game.

This. When you say that you've played for X years, it lends credence to the fact that you know more than they do about the game. When you say how GW used to care about things, and now they don't care beyond trying to shill the next boxed set, it tells a new player that GW isn't a good company, and it's not. When you tell them that they could spend hundreds on models that look cool, only to find out that they suck in game and can't win unless they buy more, that tells a new player the fact the game isn't balanced, and they need to understand that to avoid wasting money only to end up losing every game through picking "wrong" units and getting frustrated.

You don't see that elsewhere because most games at least try to have SOME balance to prevent that, and have a way for new players to get up and running relatively quickly and cheaply.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:


Preventing new players from starting 40K is helping whom? To me this is disgusting and petty.

This is a several hundred dollar investment, if not thousands. Not counting time for modeling and painting. This is disgusting to inform people of the status of the game?!
Do you not have faith that someone can make an informed decision with opinions and facts laid infront of them? We aren't chaining ourselves to the register to prevent purchases. We tell them "Hey, it has balance issues and you're going to need to drop like $500 to get started and it ramps up from there." How is this disgusting or petty?!

Except, based on how many of you state your opinions and vocalize the state of the game here on dakka, I seriously doubt you would word it that way, let alone stop there.

I envision it sounding something more like this:
"Hey I heard you play 40k, or used to play it. I was thinking about starting up an army. What can you tell me?"
"GW only cares about your money, is a horrible company, makes irrational and poor decisions seemingly randomly, doesn't know how to balance rules, and wrights poorly written shoddy excuses for rules. I don't play it anymore"

"Oh.. um. OK"

I don't know about you, but if I was thinking of starting 40k and was totally new, hearing an ex player say that would send me running the other direction immediately, thinking "They must really be terrible if an ex player says that about them". A few complaints makes you wonder, a scathing lambasting is a giant red flag that it's a game to avoid, because while complaints are common with everything, there's a threshold that has to be reached in order to get to where somebody has nothing good to say about a company at all. Same with a job interview - if you ask how a company is and you get a rant how bad they are, chances are it's not just some disgruntled person, it's what they are really like and must be truly terrible to get somebody to the point where they start ranting about how awful it is.

There's a breaking point for everything that goes beyond just not liking something with a game; everything has this. It's when you reach that point that people just go on a rant whenever the subject is brought up that something terrible has happened.

XenosTerminus wrote:

Except, based on how many of you state your opinions and vocalize the state of the game here on dakka, I seriously doubt you would word it that way, let alone stop there.

If you're going to call me a liar, call me a liar. Don't dance around the issue. You think that I lied and will only tell people extremely negative things about the game to get them to avoid playing it because I hate GW. Is that what you are saying?

I've told several people. I've pulled out my codex and wrote out lists for them using the battle force and a hand full of items they thought about getting. I informed them of how to play the army they wanted.
But I never lied about it. I never told them that the battle force and a handful is fine. I told them how much of an investment it costs. About how long it takes to paint. About how they will probably want to get the supplement if they actually want a BB ally. About the changes in the game. About what the other armies are like.

I'm telling you it's dishonest to avoid telling them the negative so they make uninformed decision. You respond by calling me a liar. Be glad there is a word filter and I'm not interested in getting suspended or I'd have more colorful responses.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:
All they care about is if the game, in its current form, is enjoyable.

What better way to give them insight than to give an opinion of it, as a fan and former or current player? How is giving them extra knowledge of something prior to purchase a bad thing? GW likes making these things with a "buy now, find out later" approach. Why should that stop me from informing a potential customer of the good and bad with the game.

This. When you say that you've played for X years, it lends credence to the fact that you know more than they do about the game. When you say how GW used to care about things, and now they don't care beyond trying to shill the next boxed set, it tells a new player that GW isn't a good company, and it's not. When you tell them that they could spend hundreds on models that look cool, only to find out that they suck in game and can't win unless they buy more, that tells a new player the fact the game isn't balanced, and they need to understand that to avoid wasting money only to end up losing every game through picking "wrong" units and getting frustrated.

You don't see that elsewhere because most games at least try to have SOME balance to prevent that, and have a way for new players to get up and running relatively quickly and cheaply.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:


Preventing new players from starting 40K is helping whom? To me this is disgusting and petty.

This is a several hundred dollar investment, if not thousands. Not counting time for modeling and painting. This is disgusting to inform people of the status of the game?!
Do you not have faith that someone can make an informed decision with opinions and facts laid infront of them? We aren't chaining ourselves to the register to prevent purchases. We tell them "Hey, it has balance issues and you're going to need to drop like $500 to get started and it ramps up from there." How is this disgusting or petty?!

Except, based on how many of you state your opinions and vocalize the state of the game here on dakka, I seriously doubt you would word it that way, let alone stop there.

I envision it sounding something more like this:
"Hey I heard you play 40k, or used to play it. I was thinking about starting up an army. What can you tell me?"
"GW only cares about your money, is a horrible company, makes irrational and poor decisions seemingly randomly, doesn't know how to balance rules, and wrights poorly written shoddy excuses for rules. I don't play it anymore"

"Oh.. um. OK"

I don't know about you, but if I was thinking of starting 40k and was totally new, hearing an ex player say that would send me running the other direction immediately, thinking "They must really be terrible if an ex player says that about them". Same with a job interview - if you ask how a company is and you get a rant how bad they are, chances are it's not just some disgruntled person, it's what they are really like and must be truly terrible to get somebody to the point where they start ranting about how awful it is.

Or that person may have had their opinion swayed one way or another through internal or external sources. How many people praise a company when said company fires them? Or how about if that company brings in a new CFO and they reorganize or change the way the company approaches things, which may or may not impact their personal job (happens all the time).

The point is, a single persons opinion that was wronged, especially if they aren't being rational about it, isn't the best source to formulate an educated decision. Now, if you were talking to this person and stated how you don't like the direction the game is going, but MANY OTHER PEOPLE SEEM TO STILL ENJOY IT- that would be an unbiased neutral opinion that is not slated with your personal experience/bias.

Follow up with offering a demo game, or explaining rules while this person watches other people play. Then, and only then, would I believe you are being helpful.

That's why people should think for themselves, and not blindly follow everything they're told.

An honest opinion, frankly delivered, is a hugely valuable thing, but it is up to the person asking for that opinion as to what weighting they attribute to it, and it still remains entirely on them to make their own mind up.

I'm pretty sure I can tell the difference between the well reasoned thoughts of a considered individual and the rantings of a frothing loon, if you can't, then life is going to be hard for you, not just the wargaming hobby.

 azreal13 wrote:
That's why people should think for themselves, and not blindly follow everything they're told.

An honest opinion, frankly delivered, is a hugely valuable thing, but it is up to the person asking for that opinion as to what weighting they attribute to it, and it still remains entirely on them to make their own mind up.

I'm pretty sure I can tell the difference between the well reasoned thoughts of a considered individual and the rantings of a frothing loon, if you can't, then life is going to be hard for you, not just the wargaming hobby.

Some people can't, unfortunately.

You would be surprised how influential an opinion from a trusted friend can be. This would be particularly true if this person knew you have been a long-time player. It's hard to set aside personal bias/opinion for most people to the point you can be objective, especially if you aren't actively trying to persuade or convince someone to do something you are in agreement with (in this case hop on the GW express, when you got off thousands of stops ago).

I'll go back to the video game comparison- a large chunk of people legitimately base their entire purchasing decisions for games based on the sole review of a single reputable source.

Then that's the problem of the person asking the advice, the person who offers it shouldn't have to compromise what, when all is said and done, their integrity in order to mitigate what they think for fear that it will unduly influence that person (at least not in the context of toy soldiers.)

 Savageconvoy wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:

Except, based on how many of you state your opinions and vocalize the state of the game here on dakka, I seriously doubt you would word it that way, let alone stop there.

If you're going to call me a liar, call me a liar. Don't dance around the issue. You think that I lied and will only tell people extremely negative things about the game to get them to avoid playing it because I hate GW. Is that what you are saying?

I've told several people. I've pulled out my codex and wrote out lists for them using the battle force and a hand full of items they thought about getting. I informed them of how to play the army they wanted.
But I never lied about it. I never told them that the battle force and a handful is fine. I told them how much of an investment it costs. About how long it takes to paint. About how they will probably want to get the supplement if they actually want a BB ally. About the changes in the game. About what the other armies are like.

I'm telling you it's dishonest to avoid telling them the negative so they make uninformed decision. You respond by calling me a liar. Be glad there is a word filter and I'm not interested in getting suspended or I'd have more colorful responses.

I never called you a liar. I don't personally know you.

I only have this forum to use as a point of reference to gauge by, and if tendencies have any credence it's not terribly unrealistic to assume overly negative posters are probably overly negative people IRL.

If this is not the case, you have my apologies.

XenosTerminus wrote:
and if tendencies have any credence it's not terribly unrealistic to assume overly negative posters are probably overly negative people IRL.

How so? The people I've seen that are against 40K currently were fans of it in previous editions. That means that they didn't have the tendency to be negative going off that logic.
The ones that don't play now, support other games. So I guess we don't have the tendency of being overly negative about everything.

I don't think you have any respect for new players to make informed decisions on their own with both sides of the case presented and you aren't showing any respect for the negative side by actively dismissing their points and making up baseless accusations about them being overly negative.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:
and if tendencies have any credence it's not terribly unrealistic to assume overly negative posters are probably overly negative people IRL.

How so? The people I've seen that are against 40K currently were fans of it in previous editions. That means that they didn't have the tendency to be negative going off that logic.
The ones that don't play now, support other games. So I guess we don't have the tendency of being overly negative about everything.

I don't think you have any respect for new players to make informed decisions on their own with both sides of the case presented and you aren't showing any respect for the negative side by actively dismissing their points and making up baseless accusations about them being overly negative.

I can probably count on a single hand how many actually positive things you have said about the hobby, and most were within this thread while explaining how you would discuss 40k to a new/prospective player.

I will give you credit where it is due however- there are others who haven't said anything positive since I joined.

In regards to supposed respect for new players and their ability to make educated decisions- I'm not suggesting everyone is a sheep who will base their entire purchasing decision leaning on my every word whether positive or negative about the game, but you cannot deny word of mouth has an indirect impact which could influence someone.

As far as respect for the negative side? I'm not a negative person. I look for the positive in things, especially those which are done for enjoyment or personal satisfaction. I am not blisfully ignorant of GW's flaws as a company, or ignore the issues present with the game. I just don't care.

It's a game, not a career. As a game, it functions and I enjoy it. Yes, the product could be improved. No, I don't think GW is going to do much to change it at this time. If I was not OK with this/accepted it I would walk away (and most definitely not post in a forum dedicated to it).

I acknowledge that many people have issues with the game. I also acknowledge many do not. I would never willingly go out of my way to involve myself with something I do not agree with or enjoy anymore, especially a hobby.

This is what we are tired of. It's a ceaseless crusade of negativity that is disservice to not only yourself, but to others around you. You can dislike the game, but for the love of all that is Holy just try not to ruin it for others.

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:
and if tendencies have any credence it's not terribly unrealistic to assume overly negative posters are probably overly negative people IRL.

How so? The people I've seen that are against 40K currently were fans of it in previous editions. That means that they didn't have the tendency to be negative going off that logic.
The ones that don't play now, support other games. So I guess we don't have the tendency of being overly negative about everything.

I don't think you have any respect for new players to make informed decisions on their own with both sides of the case presented and you aren't showing any respect for the negative side by actively dismissing their points and making up baseless accusations about them being overly negative.

I can probably count on a single hand how many actually positive things you have said about the hobby, and most were within this thread while explaining how you would discuss 40k to a new/prospective player.

I will give you credit where it is due however- there are others who haven't said anything positive since I joined.

In regards to supposed respect for new players and their ability to make educated decisions- I'm not suggesting everyone is a sheep who will base their entire purchasing decision leaning on my every word whether positive or negative about the game, but you cannot deny word of mouth has an indirect impact which could influence someone.

As far as respect for the negative side? I'm not a negative person. I look for the positive in things, especially those which are done for enjoyment or personal satisfaction. I am not blisfully ignorant of GW's flaws as a company, or ignore the issues present with the game. I just don't care.

It's a game, not a career. As a game, it functions and I enjoy it. Yes, the product could be improved. No, I don't think GW is going to do much to change it at this time. If I was not OK with this/accepted it I would walk away (and most definitely not post in a forum dedicated to it).

I acknowledge that many people have issues with the game. I also acknowledge many do not. I would never willingly go out of my way to involve myself with something I do not agree with or enjoy anymore, especially a hobby.

This is what we are tired of. It's a ceaseless crusade of negativity that is disservice to not only yourself, but to others around you. You can dislike the game, but for the love of all that is Holy just try not to ruin it for others.

Your fun of 40k is dependent on what others think of it? I think 40k is a bad game that keeps getting worse. how does that stop you from enjoying it? Keep enjoying it. No one's stopping you. But stop trying to say that we shouldn't voice our opinions because you happen to disagree with them.

XenosTerminus wrote:


This is what we are tired of. It's a ceaseless crusade of negativity that is disservice to not only yourself, but to others around you. You can dislike the game, but for the love of all that is Holy just try not to ruin it for others.

This right here is how I feel on the subject. Hate it all you want, keep it to yourself and let others try the game for themselves and make their own minds up.

Rompope wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:


This is what we are tired of. It's a ceaseless crusade of negativity that is disservice to not only yourself, but to others around you. You can dislike the game, but for the love of all that is Holy just try not to ruin it for others.

This right here is how I feel on the subject. Hate it all you want, keep it to yourself and let others try the game for themselves and make their own minds up.

No.
If I don't like the game, I'll tell others why I don't and steer them to better ones.

 MWHistorian wrote:

Your fun of 40k is dependent on what others think of it? I think 40k is a bad game that keeps getting worse. how does that stop you from enjoying it? Keep enjoying it. No one's stopping you. But stop trying to say that we shouldn't voice our opinions because you happen to disagree with them.

It is less the voicing and more how you go about doing it. I was away for a few hours, came back and people are berating the game.

This is how you do it objectively.

Point out the pros, point out the cons. Keep your opinion to yourself. If, after hearing both sides, they decide not to play, then you insert your opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:

Rompope wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:


This is what we are tired of. It's a ceaseless crusade of negativity that is disservice to not only yourself, but to others around you. You can dislike the game, but for the love of all that is Holy just try not to ruin it for others.

This right here is how I feel on the subject. Hate it all you want, keep it to yourself and let others try the game for themselves and make their own minds up.

No.
If I don't like the game, I'll tell others why I don't and steer them to better ones.

That's the issue, the games you think are better. Warhammer could be the best game they've ever played and they could absolutely love it, but your negative opinions on it could prevent them from experiencing this.

Just because you have had problems with it, why do you feel that it is now on you to prevent others from finding something they like within the game? If they play and hate it, that's on them, no business of yours at all actually. Same if they play it and love it.

 MWHistorian wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:
and if tendencies have any credence it's not terribly unrealistic to assume overly negative posters are probably overly negative people IRL.

How so? The people I've seen that are against 40K currently were fans of it in previous editions. That means that they didn't have the tendency to be negative going off that logic.
The ones that don't play now, support other games. So I guess we don't have the tendency of being overly negative about everything.

I don't think you have any respect for new players to make informed decisions on their own with both sides of the case presented and you aren't showing any respect for the negative side by actively dismissing their points and making up baseless accusations about them being overly negative.

I can probably count on a single hand how many actually positive things you have said about the hobby, and most were within this thread while explaining how you would discuss 40k to a new/prospective player.

I will give you credit where it is due however- there are others who haven't said anything positive since I joined.

In regards to supposed respect for new players and their ability to make educated decisions- I'm not suggesting everyone is a sheep who will base their entire purchasing decision leaning on my every word whether positive or negative about the game, but you cannot deny word of mouth has an indirect impact which could influence someone.

As far as respect for the negative side? I'm not a negative person. I look for the positive in things, especially those which are done for enjoyment or personal satisfaction. I am not blisfully ignorant of GW's flaws as a company, or ignore the issues present with the game. I just don't care.

It's a game, not a career. As a game, it functions and I enjoy it. Yes, the product could be improved. No, I don't think GW is going to do much to change it at this time. If I was not OK with this/accepted it I would walk away (and most definitely not post in a forum dedicated to it).

I acknowledge that many people have issues with the game. I also acknowledge many do not. I would never willingly go out of my way to involve myself with something I do not agree with or enjoy anymore, especially a hobby.

This is what we are tired of. It's a ceaseless crusade of negativity that is disservice to not only yourself, but to others around you. You can dislike the game, but for the love of all that is Holy just try not to ruin it for others.

Your fun of 40k is dependent on what others think of it? I think 40k is a bad game that keeps getting worse. how does that stop you from enjoying it? Keep enjoying it. No one's stopping you. But stop trying to say that we shouldn't voice our opinions because you happen to disagree with them.

You aren't getting it.

No, my enjoyment in the game is not entirely dependent on the opinions expressed here, or anywhere else for that matter.

But you have to understand you are in a different position than those who still enjoy this hobby. You don't have to login to a forum dedicated to discussing things about a hobby you are still invested in and have to wade through pages of threads that generally devolve into threads like this one. It's tiring, and to a lesser degree tarnishes the game I love. Not because I agree with you or disagree with you, simply because all the negativity that is repeated OVER and OVER without end is exhausting.

I already stated a while ago that I took a break from these forums before 7th came out, and I can honestly say I did enjoy the hobby more. You can't expect people that are enjoying something to not be impacted even slightly when someone shows up to basically tell them what they enjoy is terrible and that they are blatantly trying to steer people away from it.

Rompope wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

Your fun of 40k is dependent on what others think of it? I think 40k is a bad game that keeps getting worse. how does that stop you from enjoying it? Keep enjoying it. No one's stopping you. But stop trying to say that we shouldn't voice our opinions because you happen to disagree with them.

It is less the voicing and more how you go about doing it. I was away for a few hours, came back and people are berating the game.

This is how you do it objectively.

Point out the pros, point out the cons. Keep your opinion to yourself. If, after hearing both sides, they decide not to play, then you insert your opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:

Rompope wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:


This is what we are tired of. It's a ceaseless crusade of negativity that is disservice to not only yourself, but to others around you. You can dislike the game, but for the love of all that is Holy just try not to ruin it for others.

This right here is how I feel on the subject. Hate it all you want, keep it to yourself and let others try the game for themselves and make their own minds up.

No.
If I don't like the game, I'll tell others why I don't and steer them to better ones.

That's the issue, the games you think are better. Warhammer could be the best game they've ever played and they could absolutely love it, but your negative opinions on it could prevent them from experiencing this.

Just because you have had problems with it, why do you feel that it is now on you to prevent others from finding something they like within the game? If they play and hate it, that's on them, no business of yours at all actually. Same if they play it and love it.

I'm not going to stop voicing my opinion because I should be worried someone will take it as gospel. Stop trying to take away personal accountability. If they only listen to me, that's on them. Let them do their homework and research the game.

IMO what you are seeing is not people dissatisfied enough with GW to leave, but people that suddenly feel forced out by to them unacceptable changes/behavior.

I used to by one of the biggest supporters of 40k in my group. Since 5th edition they have all left, to the point that few games of 40k happened that did not involve me. For me I wasn't ready to leave yet, but GW is forcing our hand.

Rompope wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

Rompope wrote:

XenosTerminus wrote:


This is what we are tired of. It's a ceaseless crusade of negativity that is disservice to not only yourself, but to others around you. You can dislike the game, but for the love of all that is Holy just try not to ruin it for others.

This right here is how I feel on the subject. Hate it all you want, keep it to yourself and let others try the game for themselves and make their own minds up.

No.
If I don't like the game, I'll tell others why I don't and steer them to better ones.

That's the issue, the games you think are better. Warhammer could be the best game they've ever played and they could absolutely love it, but your negative opinions on it could prevent them from experiencing this.

Just because you have had problems with it, why do you feel that it is now on you to prevent others from finding something they like within the game? If they play and hate it, that's on them, no business of yours at all actually. Same if they play it and love it.

Yeah, but if I were to suggest someone tried 40K, they then spent the circa $300 or so to get something playable, rulebooks, paint etc and they hated it, I'd feel pretty bad.

If I'd let them try because I'd not given my full and frank appraisal of the current state of the game, I'd feel much worse.

This subforum is like a toilet. There, I've said it.

The negativity/why no more positivity gak threads are the turds that float at the top and rarely sink, and there's a constant stream of them every day.

That's because the moderators refuse to flush the toilet by locking or deleting threads. One of the moderators in particular adds to the pile and his advice to all the passers-by essentially amounts to "gak less" or in other words, post less negativity and post more quality content. (really, it was in one of these threads recently.)

So when new people do pass by in sub-forum they see this steaming pile of gak threads and immediately get turned off, or they get in dragged in like a singularity and you get flame wars where neither side is open to changing their minds.

The moderators defend these threads by saying they're "discussions" like that's pure or innocent, and I don't agree with that. They're blatantly obvious flamebait, they're dividing the community, contributing nothing of use to the forum and deterring people from posting quality content. The arguments in them have been stated a thousand times.

If these threads have to stay, make a new sub-forum explicitly for them. That way, all the complaining people and all the people they're arguing with will still go there and rage their flame wars, and this sub-forum won't look like a joke. If you can oppose this idea without your argument amounting to "but I want my flamebait gak threads to have attention" then I'm all ears.

I think this forum is generally run well. This I feel is perhaps the only real big issue with this forum.

XenosTerminus wrote:

I can probably count on a single hand how many actually positive things you have said about the hobby, and most were within this thread while explaining how you would discuss 40k to a new/prospective player.

I've made plenty of comments helping out new players with Tau and talked a bit in the tactics forum about Kroot and Skyrays. Not everything I've said is positive, but unless you have a mutant hand I doubt you're accurately representing my post history or opinion on the subject. If you talking about this thread, then mostly I've been repeating myself or discussing the arguments and not the hobby itself.

I'm not suggesting everyone is a sheep who will base their entire purchasing decision leaning on my every word whether positive or negative about the game, but you cannot deny word of mouth has an indirect impact which could influence someone.

I look for the positive in things, especially those which are done for enjoyment or personal satisfaction. I am not blisfully ignorant of GW's flaws as a company, or ignore the issues present with the game. I just don't care.

How is this a better stance than my own? You admit that you have a positive bias and don't care about the negative things. If you're helping someone new to the hobby you're giving them just as skewed of an opinion on the game as you think I am. How do you justify misleading someone to make an uniformed investment like this hobby?

I would never willingly go out of my way to involve myself with something I do not agree with or enjoy anymore, especially a hobby.

Do you think this is a black and white thing? That you can only completely enjoy or completely hate? That there is no middle ground? That there isn't multiple aspects to 40K? That you can enjoy one aspect and hate another?

It's a ceaseless crusade of negativity that is disservice to not only yourself, but to others around you. You can dislike the game, but for the love of all that is Holy just try not to ruin it for others.

Have I ever said I try to ruin it for others? Can you quote me on that? Because you've been extremely disrespectful and purposefully misstated what everyone against you is saying in this thread. Can you show me how I'm hurting everyone by voicing my opinion?!

 Mr.Omega wrote:
This subforum is like a toilet. There, I've said it.

The negativity gak threads are the turds that float at the top and rarely sink, and there's a constant stream of them every day.

That's because the moderators refuse to flush the toilet by locking or deleting threads. One of the moderators in particular adds to the pile and his advice to all the passers-by essentially amounts to "gak less" or in other words, post less negativity and post more quality content. (really, it was in one of these threads recently.)

So when new people do pass by in sub-forum they see this steaming pile of gak threads and immediately get turned off, or they get in dragged in like a singularity and you get flame wars where neither side is open to changing their minds.

Oh, and the moderators defend these threads by saying they're "discussions" like that's pure or innocent. They're blatantly obvious flamebait, they're dividing the community, contributing nothing of use to the forum and deterring people from posting quality content. The arguments in them have been stated a thousand times.

Oh get some new material will you Omega?

It's got to the stage where every post you write is essentially the same regurgitated bile, with a slight riff on it if we're lucky.

You know how a discussion degenerates? When people like you post nonsense like this.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
This subforum is like a toilet. There, I've said it.

The negativity gak threads are the turds that float at the top and rarely sink, and there's a constant stream of them every day.

That's because the moderators refuse to flush the toilet by locking or deleting threads. One of the moderators in particular adds to the pile and his advice to all the passers-by essentially amounts to "gak less" or in other words, post less negativity and post more quality content. (really, it was in one of these threads recently.)

So when new people do pass by in sub-forum they see this steaming pile of gak threads and immediately get turned off, or they get in dragged in like a singularity and you get flame wars where neither side is open to changing their minds.

Oh, and the moderators defend these threads by saying they're "discussions" like that's pure or innocent. They're blatantly obvious flamebait, they're dividing the community, contributing nothing of use to the forum and deterring people from posting quality content. The arguments in them have been stated a thousand times.

Wow. You really don't like opinions that differ from your own. When the moderator said to make your posts less gak, this post is probably what he was talking about. This adds nothing to the discussion except crude negativity.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
This subforum is like a toilet. There, I've said it.

The negativity gak threads are the turds that float at the top and rarely sink, and there's a constant stream of them every day.

That's because the moderators refuse to flush the toilet by locking or deleting threads. One of the moderators in particular adds to the pile and his advice to all the passers-by essentially amounts to "gak less" or in other words, post less negativity and post more quality content. (really, it was in one of these threads recently.)

So when new people do pass by in sub-forum they see this steaming pile of gak threads and immediately get turned off, or they get in dragged in like a singularity and you get flame wars where neither side is open to changing their minds.

Oh, and the moderators defend these threads by saying they're "discussions" like that's pure or innocent. They're blatantly obvious flamebait, they're dividing the community, contributing nothing of use to the forum and deterring people from posting quality content. The arguments in them have been stated a thousand times.

Wow. You really don't like opinions that differ from your own. When the moderator said to make your posts less gak, this post is probably what he was talking about. This adds nothing to the discussion except crude negativity.

"Discussion" inherently implies anything of use comes from these threads.

This thread type "stop it, seriously" isn't useful or pleasant to read. There's been several versions of it over the last month. It gets made again and again, creating more and more flame wars. Don't worry, I won't re-state my view on this circlejerk bandwagon again, but I had spare time and frankly I wanted to put it across once more.

I think these sorts of threads calling for it to stop should be banned and so should the threads that essentially amount to complaints alone. Make a new sub-forum, or put them all in one thread, locking or deleting all others in this section at the very least.

Its not the opinions that bother me so much as the constant worthless, regurgitated arguments in each one, the multiples of the same thread simultaneously raging, as I said, contributing nothing and detracting greatly from the enjoyment of visiting this sub-forum.

You continue to criticise others for HAVING an opinion, yet singularly fail to proffer one of your own....

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
This subforum is like a toilet. There, I've said it.

The negativity gak threads are the turds that float at the top and rarely sink, and there's a constant stream of them every day.

That's because the moderators refuse to flush the toilet by locking or deleting threads. One of the moderators in particular adds to the pile and his advice to all the passers-by essentially amounts to "gak less" or in other words, post less negativity and post more quality content. (really, it was in one of these threads recently.)

So when new people do pass by in sub-forum they see this steaming pile of gak threads and immediately get turned off, or they get in dragged in like a singularity and you get flame wars where neither side is open to changing their minds.

Oh, and the moderators defend these threads by saying they're "discussions" like that's pure or innocent. They're blatantly obvious flamebait, they're dividing the community, contributing nothing of use to the forum and deterring people from posting quality content. The arguments in them have been stated a thousand times.

Wow. You really don't like opinions that differ from your own. When the moderator said to make your posts less gak, this post is probably what he was talking about. This adds nothing to the discussion except crude negativity.

"Discussion" inherently implies anything of use comes from these threads.

This thread type "stop it, seriously" isn't useful or pleasant to read. There's been several versions of it over the last month. It gets made again and again, creating more and more flame wars. Don't worry, I won't re-state my view on this circlejerk bandwagon again, but I had spare time and frankly I wanted to put it across again.

I think these sorts of threads calling for it to stop should be banned and so should the threads that essentially amount to complaints alone. Make a new sub-forum, or put them all in one thread, locking or deleting all others in this section at the very least.

Or maybe there's a series problem within the 40k community that needs to be addressed. The problem is that many players are highly dissatisfied with how the game and the company are. Ignoring this problem won't make it go away. In fact, GW ignoring these issues has led to this point. Stifling opinions and discussion won't help.

 azreal13 wrote:
You continue to criticise others for HAVING an opinion, yet singularly fail to proffer one of your own....

Oh, please flame me back, and attempt pointlessly to change my opinion so I can laugh at the inferiority of yours....

Its not the opinions that bother me so much as the constant worthless, regurgitated arguments in each one, the multiples of the same thread simultaneously raging, as I said, contributing nothing and detracting greatly from the enjoyment of visiting this sub-forum.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
This subforum is like a toilet. There, I've said it.

The negativity gak threads are the turds that float at the top and rarely sink, and there's a constant stream of them every day.

That's because the moderators refuse to flush the toilet by locking or deleting threads. One of the moderators in particular adds to the pile and his advice to all the passers-by essentially amounts to "gak less" or in other words, post less negativity and post more quality content. (really, it was in one of these threads recently.)

So when new people do pass by in sub-forum they see this steaming pile of gak threads and immediately get turned off, or they get in dragged in like a singularity and you get flame wars where neither side is open to changing their minds.

Oh, and the moderators defend these threads by saying they're "discussions" like that's pure or innocent. They're blatantly obvious flamebait, they're dividing the community, contributing nothing of use to the forum and deterring people from posting quality content. The arguments in them have been stated a thousand times.

Wow. You really don't like opinions that differ from your own. When the moderator said to make your posts less gak, this post is probably what he was talking about. This adds nothing to the discussion except crude negativity.

"Discussion" inherently implies anything of use comes from these threads.

This thread type "stop it, seriously" isn't useful or pleasant to read. There's been several versions of it over the last month. It gets made again and again, creating more and more flame wars. Don't worry, I won't re-state my view on this circlejerk bandwagon again, but I had spare time and frankly I wanted to put it across again.

I think these sorts of threads calling for it to stop should be banned and so should the threads that essentially amount to complaints alone. Make a new sub-forum, or put them all in one thread, locking or deleting all others in this section at the very least.

Or maybe there's a series problem within the 40k community that needs to be addressed. The problem is that many players are highly dissatisfied with how the game and the company are. Ignoring this problem won't make it go away. In fact, GW ignoring these issues has led to this point. Stifling opinions and discussion won't help.

Its not going to be addressed full stop. We are not going to change GW's mind.

Ignoring it won't make it go away. Giving it attention won't make it better. We can satisfy the people who keep it alive by throwing it in a new sub-forum or a central thread. I don't advocate suppression directly, I advocate seeing the forum tidied up and made less of a gak hole.

 azreal13 wrote:
You continue to criticise others for HAVING an opinion, yet singularly fail to proffer one of your own....

The only opinion that matters on Dakka is that which is negative.

If people that are happy with the game are 'GW Apologists' or 'White Knights', I propose a new title for the opposite end of the spectrum:

'Veterans of the long war against GW'

So, offer something new, which isn't an ad hom or strawman..

Simples.

 Purifier wrote:
GW have messed up 40k beyond all recognition. They're doing just fine on Fantasy still. It's a good game, and the Triumph and Treachery addition was very well received.

The feeling in the Fantasy side is more "God I hope they don't start giving fantasy the 40k treatment."

I've been playing 40k for almost a year now, but with the new edition and everything, I can say the game is getting worse. Which is why I started dabbling in Fantasy, and I have to admit that it's much more balanced, realistic system with rules that, to me, just make more sense. I enjoy campaigns and Fluff and things like that, but almost everything in 40k has become nothing like fluff, with some armies just being obviously more overpowered, and some special rules just break the game. Whereas Fantasy, almost everything just flows better in my opinion. There is obviously cheese, but I've seen less of it, and it's so much easier to play fluffy lists and build awesome campaigns. I really hope they keep Fantasy how it is and not do the same thing they did to 40k.

 azreal13 wrote:
So, offer something new, which isn't an ad hom or strawman..

Simples.

The irony is here you're strawmanning. I'm not defending GW, or arguing against the people who have their beef with it. I'm making a point that the arguing should cease to a point and be minimised in a way that satisfies everyone - one thread, or one new sub-forum.

I am not giving you my opinion on GW. Period. I am not even going to bother to attempt to change yours, or engage in pointless, train-with-no-brakes argument on that. I think everyone else should stop filling the sub-forum with threads on it.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
So, offer something new, which isn't an ad hom or strawman..

Simples.

The irony is here you're strawmanning. I'm not defending GW, or arguing against the people who have their beef with it. I'm making a point that the arguing should cease to a point and be minimised in a way that satisfies everyone - one thread, or one new sub-forum.

I am not giving you my opinion on GW. Period. I am not even going to bother to attempt to change yours, or engage in pointless, train-with-no-brakes argument on that. I think everyone else should stop filling the sub-forum with threads on it.

I agree 100%. The entire purpose of this thread was to address the very fact that these forums are inundated with this garbage. Right or wrong, irrespective of personal opinion, these threads resurface like a bad case of herpes.

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
So, offer something new, which isn't an ad hom or strawman..

Simples.

The irony is here you're strawmanning. I'm not defending GW, or arguing against the people who have their beef with it. I'm making a point that the arguing should cease to a point and be minimised in a way that satisfies everyone - one thread, or one new sub-forum.

I am not giving you my opinion on GW. Period. I am not even going to bother to attempt to change yours, or engage in pointless, train-with-no-brakes argument on that. I think everyone else should stop filling the sub-forum with threads on it.

I agree 100%. The entire purpose of this thread was to address the very fact that these forums are inundated with this garbage. Right or wrong, irrespective of personal opinion, these threads resurface like a bad case of herpes.

Then perhaps the answer isn't to pretend it's nothing and maybe it'll go away...

 Mr.Omega wrote:

I'm making a point that the arguing should cease to a point and be minimised in a way that satisfies everyone - one thread, or one new sub-forum.

So you don't want to get involved in a discussion. You want a new sub forum made where people can state an opinion, only people that agree with it respond, and get nowhere or get locked out entirely and delete all posts against that opinion. Unless you share in that opinion, then they're free to post what ever and where ever?

Know what? Make your own forum with that in mind and tell me how it flies.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
So, offer something new, which isn't an ad hom or strawman..

Simples.

The irony is here you're strawmanning. I'm not defending GW, or arguing against the people who have their beef with it. I'm making a point that the arguing should cease to a point and be minimised in a way that satisfies everyone - one thread, or one new sub-forum.

I am not giving you my opinion on GW. Period. I am not even going to bother to attempt to change yours, or engage in pointless, train-with-no-brakes argument on that. I think everyone else should stop filling the sub-forum with threads on it.

No, you're attacking people for having an opinion.

You're not refuting it, you're not countering it, you're not even offering your own as a counterpoint.

All you're doing is raging that people are discussing something that YOU don't agree with.

Your contribution to topic is utterly worthless, and now you've managed to drag the whole thing into something approaching a mud slinging contest yet again because you essentially have no point beyond "waah, stop writing things I don't want to read!"

I too am tired of the negativity.

I am mostly tired of feeling negative about 40k, but it is clear that GW could give two gaks about my opinion.

However, negativity is tiring. It wears me out. It gets my heart racing to no good end.

Also, addressing the discouraging people from playing. Yes. This a thousand times this.

I will actively encourage people to not play 40K. Why would I want to subject innocents to GW and their "hobby"?

I would rather "grow" the participation in games that I actively play.

You know the games that are a result of companies actually trying to achieve balance, actually listening to their customers, actually trying to write solid, tight, sensible, fun, unambiguous, inexpensive (or free!) rules.

When GW is inevitably bought out and the new owners make attempts at doing any of the above mentioned things then I will probably come back around the 40k. Until then...not a chance.

XenosTerminus wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
So, offer something new, which isn't an ad hom or strawman..

Simples.

The irony is here you're strawmanning. I'm not defending GW, or arguing against the people who have their beef with it. I'm making a point that the arguing should cease to a point and be minimised in a way that satisfies everyone - one thread, or one new sub-forum.

I am not giving you my opinion on GW. Period. I am not even going to bother to attempt to change yours, or engage in pointless, train-with-no-brakes argument on that. I think everyone else should stop filling the sub-forum with threads on it.

I agree 100%. The entire purpose of this thread was to address the very fact that these forums are inundated with this garbage. Right or wrong, irrespective of personal opinion, these threads resurface like a bad case of herpes.

I don't agree that this thread is garbage. We were having a reasonable discussion until the GW apologists started throwing out random insults and crude, negative and utterly pointless posts that say people shouldn't voice their opinions.

jamesk1973 wrote:
I too am tired of the negativity.

I am mostly tired of feeling negative about 40k, but it is clear that GW could give two gaks about my opinion.

However, negativity is tiring. It wears me out. It gets my heart racing to no good end.

Also, addressing the discouraging people from playing. Yes. This a thousand times this.

I will actively encourage people to not play 40K. Why would I want to subject innocents to GW and their "hobby"?

I would rather "grow" the participation in games that I actively play.

You know the games that are a result of companies actually trying to achieve balance, actually listening to their customers, actually trying to write solid, tight, sensible, fun, unambiguous, inexpensive (or free!) rules.

When GW is inevitably bought out and the new owners make attempts at doing any of the above mentioned things then I will probably come back around the 40k. Until then...not a chance.

As I've said to others before, if this is actually affecting you personally, take a break. Not in a "if you don't like it, feth off" sense, but in a "it's the internets, if you're taking it seriously enough that you're getting emotional, go out and spend some time with friends in real life, go for a bike ride or something" sense.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

I'm making a point that the arguing should cease to a point and be minimised in a way that satisfies everyone - one thread, or one new sub-forum.

So you don't want to get involved in a discussion. You want a new sub forum made where people can state an opinion, only people that agree with it respond, and get nowhere or get locked out entirely and delete all posts against that opinion. Unless you share in that opinion, then they're free to post what ever and where ever?

Know what? Make your own forum with that in mind and tell me how it flies.

No, a sub-forum where BOTH sides can discuss the topic of GW's morals/idiocy/pricing/issues of late.

You're practically openly admitting that you want your shove your protests and complaints down people's throats where more will see it as far as I read here. You do realise the opponents to the more popular view will still visit such a sub-forum? You'll get your flame war and pointless argument.

But of course, if you simply can't stand that, a single centralised thread will do as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
So, offer something new, which isn't an ad hom or strawman..

Simples.

The irony is here you're strawmanning. I'm not defending GW, or arguing against the people who have their beef with it. I'm making a point that the arguing should cease to a point and be minimised in a way that satisfies everyone - one thread, or one new sub-forum.

I am not giving you my opinion on GW. Period. I am not even going to bother to attempt to change yours, or engage in pointless, train-with-no-brakes argument on that. I think everyone else should stop filling the sub-forum with threads on it.

No, you're attacking people for having an opinion.

You're not refuting it, you're not countering it, you're not even offering your own as a counterpoint.

All you're doing is raging that people are discussing something that YOU don't agree with.

Your contribution to topic is utterly worthless, and now you've managed to drag the whole thing into something approaching a mud slinging contest yet again because you essentially have no point beyond "waah, stop writing things I don't want to read!"

Utterly, totally wrong.

You are not reading or understanding the point I am putting across. You are painting me as a GW apologist/white knight/whatever stupid slang insult name there is for people opposing the negativity view these days. You paint me as the opposition in your black and white argument, where I am not pretending to be of either side, and think both are wrong for arguing over the argument in the first place.

That is my argument in a nutshell. Read it again. And again. Drill it into your brain before you spit at me again.

Your contribution to topic is utterly worthless,

Well. I'm just going to recline back in an armchair and sigh.

That's pathetic. Sorry.

I am issuing a general warning here.

People have a right to complain about a company as long as the complaints are founded in fact.

People do not have a right to say that people who complain about GW are a "toilet", "whiners", "negativity" or any such personal attacks.

If you cannot bear to read a complaint about GW, stop reading them.

If you want to argue against such complaints, please do so with the usual points of evidence that are expected in any polite debate.

Conversely, if you want to complain about GW, please do so with the usual points of evidence that are expected in any polite debate, or I am going to consider your statement to be trolling and take action accordingly.

If people use DakkaDakka like a playground for starting stupid rants at each I am going to hand out a week's suspension for such cases.

This seems like an opportune time to point out that this thread is a perfect example of the point I've tried to make in several threads now: 'Fighting negativity with more negativity doesn't end well'.

This is a positive thread. It was started to specifically discuss positive things about Warhammer 40K. And it has stayed mostly positive, with minimal moderation.

This thread you're in right now, which was started to tell people to shut the hell up and stop complaining because somebody doesn't like people complaining... is 6 pages of people complaining that other people have a different opinion to their own and slinging insults.

If you see these forums as having a negative atmosphere and you feel that needs to change, you're not going to effect that change by telling people to stop talking about things you disagree with. Make a positive contribution instead.

I want also to point out that calling people "white knights" and "fanbois" because they like GW is just as insulting as calling people "whiners" for complaining.