So how do we use our natural cunnin to compete with the likes of marine drop pods and biker spam, da crons pesky vehicles, PIXIES!, daemon factories, etc.

By examining the top builds these factions bring to the table, I'll attempt to organize the individual input of our fellow warbosses into an overall ranking system for each unit as it pertains to their TAC ability for combating these builds as well as other common builds.

Please note that I will not hold anyone's opinion higher above another's, but do ask that you logically back up your opinions of various units.

GREENSKINS RULE!

RANKINGS

HQ


Troops



Elites


Fast attack



Heavy support


LOW


Formations


Gifts of Gork & Mork


BW upgrades


Also be sure to vote on the daily polls!

I'd say the Painboy is the best HQ choice, so long as you have at least one high-value bike / infantry unit. The Warboss is probably second best thanks to his Leadership and Waaagh! ability and makes the best Warlord we can get. Other HQ choices I'm not so sure about. They all seem to have some use.

Troops are fairly simple; Grots are useless, Boys are OK.

Elites are fairly well balanced. I'd say that Tankbustas are the best, Meganobs after them, then Kommandos, then Burna Boys and non-mega Nobs. Not quite sure how to class Snikrot, but I think I'd rather have two units of Kommandos than one with him.

In Fast Attack, the only thing I'm totally clear about is that Stormboys still suck. I'd say Bikers are the top choice with everything else kind of equal and only a little below Bikers. If I had to make the call I'd say Warbuggies are the second best choice, then Blitza Bommas, Deffkoptas, Dakkajets and Burna Bommas in that order.

Mek Guns are probably the best Heavy Support choice simply because they offer such good value for points. Battlewagons are still useful enough that I'd give them second place. Then Lootas, Deffdreads, Morkanauts, Gorkanauts and Flash Gits in that order. Finally, Killa Kans are right at the bottom with no competition for worst unit.

You didn't list Lords of War, but I'd say a Stompa is way better than Ghazghkull.

In a quick reply I would state Painboys, one Warboss, Meks, Tankbustas, 3 Meganobz, Mek Gunz, and Warbikes, are auto takes in their respective army themes.

Mad Dok, Kommandos, Nobz, Stormboyz, Warbuggies, Blitza Bomma, Lootas, Flash Gitz, Morkanauts, Trukks, and BW, in the situational use tier.

Kanz, Dreads, Dakkajets, Burna Boyz in the overnerfed overcosted tier.

Anything else I don't have enough info to offer opinion.

First update complete!

Now if you were gonna rank the mek gunz, which would you choose?

Lets say we make it a little more interesting by breaking them into brackets:

Lobba vs Kannon

Kustom mega-kannon vs Smasha gun

Traktor kannon vs Bubblechukka

I'll get the jibber jabber started.

If I'm solely relying on the the top army builds atm, I'd say Kannons are probably more tac than lobbas to combat the crons, pixies, and sm's. Daemon's could go either way depending on the build. Lobbas would be better against imps, but overall they lack the ability to penetrate av or damage mc's like wraithknights, whereas, the kannons are actually quite decent.

Ordinarily I would choose kustom mega-kannons without thinking, but in this particular case I think It might be a tie. While smasha gunz do somewhat rely on luck, they are quite capable of murderlizing high av vehicles such as the crons or imps, and can also contribute to gunning down mc's when their not busy with the former. Mega-kannons however, are a great counter to drop pod marines and bikes, which evidently are the top builds right now, plus they can also contribute slightly less effectively to hurting av and mc's. So overall, I think smasha's and mega-kannons might actually be closer than I originally thought.

The last match-up I think is still obviously traktor kannons. Bubblechukkas can be decent at killing blobs and the like, but there's already other mek gunz that do the same job, and then some, way better.

So what do me fellow mates think?

 Rismonite wrote:
In a quick reply I would state Painboys, one Warboss, Meks, Tankbustas, 3 Meganobz, Mek Gunz, and Warbikes, are auto takes in their respective army themes.

Mad Dok, Kommandos, Nobz, Stormboyz, Warbuggies, Blitza Bomma, Lootas, Flash Gitz, Morkanauts, Trukks, and BW, in the situational use tier.

Kanz, Dreads, Dakkajets, Burna Boyz in the overnerfed overcosted tier.

Anything else I don't have enough info to offer opinion.

I totally aggree with this,

Furthermore, when I build my list, I now go with the inverted pattern we had before. Toys before Boyz
So, I will go minimal with boyz: 1 unit of pimped-up hardboyz with heavy armor in a BW (or less if I need to scrounge up points)
1 unit of Gretchins to hide on an home objective.

Everything else will be allocated in the HQs (Pain Boy, Warboss, Weirdboy), Warbikes, MANz, Storm boyz, Mek Gunz and Kommandos.

I pretty much agree with everything here so far, and going in the same direction as OP on big guns:

what are the top configurations for HQs?

some I think are obvious, like big mek on bike with kff>big mek w/kff without bike. Painboy will take the configuration of the squad he's going with, etc.

but what about a megaboss with lukky stick compared to a bike boss?

 flaming tadpole wrote:
First update complete!

Now if you were gonna rank the mek gunz, which would you choose?

Lets say we make it a little more interesting by breaking them into brackets:

Lobba vs Kannon

Kustom mega-kannon vs Smasha gun

Traktor kannon vs Bubblechukka

Pairing 1- Hard. Kannon is decent at Armor and decent at anti infantry, lobba is good anti infantry and longer range. I would pick Kannon for TAC, since orks tend to have things to kill infantry already. Many people I think will pick lobba because 48" and barrage, but I still vote kannon!

Pairing 2- Im taking smasha gun. Kustom mega Kannon is blast, but at BS3 and with possible ammo runts not such a big deal to roll a hit, and chances are you are more likely to scatter off target with a small blast. Average strength roll for smasha gun is 7 or 8, with top of 10 and bottom of 5. So 50% of the time your = or better than kustom mega kannon on strength. AP1 for smasha gun versus ap 2 for kustom mega kannon. For vehicles, if you get a pen a smasha gun is blowing it up on a 5 or 6, whereas a kustom mega kannon on a 6. +1 for open topped. With spacing of models you might get two hits per shot with a kustom mega kannon though on things like Bikes/ TeQ. I am still going with smasha gun as it has a great range of things its going to instagib/deny fnp and is more likely to make things explode.

pairing 3- Traktor Kannon. Bubblechukkas are great anti infantry, especially against xenos, but orks already have a lot of that. All the boyz get sad when there's nothing to left to chop, so let your toys open up the things for boyz to chop, or pull them out of the sky and smash them into the ground to empty them out for things to chop.

Interesting to see kommandos so high up on most rankings.

Awesomesauce gave a good suggestion of adding in your favorite loadout as well, so feel free to add in what loadouts you find working the best for the various units and hq's.

On the same note, what loadouts do you guys run your kommandos with? I would personally think just a min squad to camp on objs. would be best, instead of using them as an offensive retinue. However, I have yet to field them yet so I don't know what kind of presence they can bring to the table.

Thoughts?

Wall of text!!!

HQs:

Painboy takes first simply because...it's a damn PAINBOY! The ability to make whatever Infantry/Bike unit you want to live longer is...just...incredible. For a measly 50 points to boot. These have become a virtual auto include in all of my builds thus far, and forced me to build my own so I had access to enough of them (Thank you leftover, unused Nob boxes)

Big Mek has become my second most go-to HQ because of the buff to KFF. I still like to run more Boyz before toyz, so having a way to keep them alive longer is awesome. Hard for them to deny me an Invul. This, combined with a Painboy makes for obnoxiously difficult to kill Boyz. It's going to become cheese right quick, but...I don't care.

Warbosses take third because...Warboss! The needed leadership is impossible to deny, and he still is a force to be reckoned with, despite no more CC invuls. With the ability to get more characters in the unit to eat challenges, he becomes more survivable in that manner. His WAAAGH is essential for Boy heavy armies, and his access to Luck Stikk can make him aggravating to your opponents. He will kill whatever he touches even more reliably than ever before.

Little Meks are fourth I feel, simply because you get them for free on the Force Org, and you can insert them into mobs to eat challenges for your PKs. All for 15 points a pop, they are virtual auto takes.

Honorable Mention: Weirdboy - I love them. I really do. They have still stolen my heart with how fun they are to play. In terms of overall efficiency, they are still a little unreliable due to poor BS on some of their powers. They are still, by far, my favorite HQ and still compete for overall favorite unit in the entire game.


Troops:

Boyz: Still reliable, though with a lot of updates in the Codex, they have become less auto take. I still bring a minimum of 40 to each game. More if I wanna move more models (Which I often do!). We need them for objective holding, or overall overwhelming foes, and tarpitting. Despite all our shiny new toys, they are still valuable and needed.

Gretchen: Eh, still cheap fodder for the meatgrinder :p


Elites:

Tankbustas: Hard to believe these guys got to where they are overnight! With their updated point cost, Tank Hunter, Mob sizes, they got a heck of a lot better. No longer forced to just charge at every vehicle that looked at them funny, they can now reliably hunt whatever we need them too. Not just the closest. Having a good sized S8 ranged squad feels oh so nice.

Manz: Losing their number one spot, they are still a solid back bone, and a terror on the field. Especially as a secondary tank hunting unit with their Killsaw upgrades. Not much else changed with them, but they still sit cozy in our favorites roster.

Kommandoz: I agree these guys make top four. Cheaper, bigger, sneakier than ever before, they are more viable and give us the ability to be sneakz. And I like that > I love any unit that screams "Deal with me, or you'll regret it".

Burna/Nobz: Agree here. Burna Boyz lost a lot of steam this codex with the updates, especially to how Templates work. That's not to say they are useless, but they are far less cheese now. Nobz still suffer from their old weaknesses, but are still fun for me to field. They feel 'propa' on the field, and still scream 'deal with me'. They would rank higher for me if they had better means of survival without relying on my KFF.


Fast Attack:

Deffkoptas: A shocker that these guys rate so highly for me over Warbikers, right? :p Their lower cost, free Rokkit upgrades, outflank and ability to keep taking a Buzzsaw makes me love them even more now. Plus, I own their models, which is why Buggies will rank lower for me (among other reasons). They are stil T5, Jink, and 2 wounds, which is awesome. And though the Buzzsaw won't make them super strong, it's still nice to have a way to strip the vehicles they are hunting down the rest of the way, should rokkits fail. Plus, I feel that Buggies die too easily for my liking.

Warbikers: Lower in cost, bigger squads, with a slightly improved Jink of all things. That makes them more All Star than ever. Sure, they lose their default 4+, but when they TB, they get a 3+ jink. Seems pretty damn good to me for 18 point, T5 models. Snap shotting is a pathetic penalty for Orks anyway, since we have twin linked on the bike guns anyway, and we still suck at shooting even WITH TL! :p Jokes on them! Great, great unit.

StormBoyz; I still love em! Bigger squads, cheaper cost though not much else changed with them, and that's OK. They still can get across the field terrifyingly fast, and with Zagstruk, you can still DS, though...no more assaulting the same turn. :(

Trukks: Meh. Still fast transports, but I'd never take them on their own.

(Can't rank the others, since I don't own them)


Heavy Support:

Big Gunz: Still king of the ring, just given even more options. With the barebone guns, we still get Lobba or Kannon to fit whatever opponent your facing, along with more options. I'll clump all the Big Gunz as number 1, because they are the same 'unit' as a whole, and they are too effective to be broken up and take up more HS ranking slots.

Morkanaught: Takes the second spot for me, because of it's versatility and amount of weapons it has. Yes, it is point intensive, but granting a large 5++ bubble to your army is too darn good for me to stick my nose up at. 2 Rokkits a turn, Kustom Mega Blasta + Kannon, and even some Big Shootas to pepper infantry give this thing some good Dakka, and it's Klaw will wreck everything it touches. Another unit that not just screams...it shouts "deal with me''. It can carry a Mek Workshop if you want it to live longer, though makes it a bit of a sink at times.

Battle Wagon: Still a trusty transport, though poor 'tank'. It will get things where you want them, and reasonably safe in the process.

Killa Kanz: Yup, they take fourth for this Warboss. Despite their cost increase and 'crew shaken' test and weaker Klaw, they are now taken in bigger squads, allowing more to be taken for fewer HS slots, making them a bit more useful despite their nerfs. They can swarm better, interfere with LoS, and need to be dealt with quickly or they can ruin some days.

Deffdreads: Right behind Kanz! Still an effective CC monster. Not much else needs to be said!

Lootas: With such a congested HS slot, I just don't have room for them anymore outside of small point games. They are still an amazing unit with a wonderful weapon and great dakka output. I just wish I struggled to fit them in my lists like I used too. Now my walkers take up those spots. (I love walkers...)

Gitz and Gorkanaught are unranked, as I have no had the chance to use them to rank them fairly.


LOW:

Um...Stompa. because....stompa. I don't think it needs explination :p Poor Ghazzy...

@blaktoof - wasn't expecting someone to agree with me on kannons vs lobbas. also you might be right about smasha's. I have yet to field them so I can't really say, but on paper they look like they can definitely fill a gap in most ork builds.

@Melevolence - Thanks for the in-depth rankings! Nice to see a little love going to the gubbin kanz . I love weirdboyz too, and refuse to give up on them.

 flaming tadpole wrote:
@blaktoof - wasn't expecting someone to agree with me on kannons vs lobbas. also you might be right about smasha's. I have yet to field them so I can't really say, but on paper they look like they can definitely fill a gap in most ork builds.

@Melevolence - Thanks for the in-depth rankings! Nice to see a little love going to the gubbin kanz . I love weirdboyz too, and refuse to give up on them.

^_^

With Kanz, I love the models, I love the concept of them, and they feel super fun and Orky to play. 50pt 11 AV, 2HP isn't terrible either despite it all. And Weirdboyz...oh man, I just love them. I need to get a second one at the very least. Maybe a third, so I can try a trio of weirdboyz just for kicks. See what chaos can ensue.

So the warbuggy made it pretty high up on that fast attack slot. You think they are that krumpy despite how fragile they are?

You don't think the DakkaJet can do more damage than warbuggies? Speaking of which you put the dakkajet pretty low on that list also.

 Icculus wrote:
So the warbuggy made it pretty high up on that fast attack slot. You think they are that krumpy despite how fragile they are?

You don't think the DakkaJet can do more damage than warbuggies? Speaking of which you put the dakkajet pretty low on that list also.

The list in the opening post is basically a general consensus on player opinion, not just the OP's. It seems a lot of players love the buggies this edition. I can't vouche personally, since I don't own any, nor do I own Dakka Jets, though at a first glance, I'd say fliers would be more devastating in the long haul. I think Buggies get more love because it's cheap, fast moving Rokkits. Plus, you get more Buggies than you do Jets.

i'd have to agree with these rankings. All of the "auto takes" are pretty spot on depending on your theme (obviously you wouldnt dare take tankbustas in a footslogging list lol)

My 2cents on the Mek Gun variant lists from most valuable to least valuable:

1) Lobbas - EASILY the best gun option. Dirt dirt DIRT cheap for some very powerful anti-infantry shootin' even against marine armor. Excellent addition to any army list for backfield objective holding and thinning out numbers.

2) Kannonz - More like an alternate #1, since its more of a preference than anything else as to why lobbas are better than kannons. Im starting to field both, since the versatility of the kannon for just as cheap a cost is very tempting.

3) Kustom Mega Kannon - Barring a Gets Hot! roll, and insanely unlucky scatter, this thing is bound to do damage whenever it fires. Pens all armor, wounds almost everything on 2s, and has potential to hit multiple targets (hi termies!) since its a blast.

4) Traktor Kannon - The only oddball gun that has a totally different use, but does it well enough to be valuable. I rate it as 4 because its useful...but has weaknesses against non-skimmer or flier lists and unless youre a weird one and get a full squad of traktors, the other mek gunz in the unit are going to be less useful when it fires at fliers.

5) Smasha Gun - Essentially a slightly better Zzap Gun...but with the cost im not sure if its worth it. YMMV but to me i just see it as wasted points...just not AS wasted as the zzap.

6) Bubble-Chukka - This thing is technically all sorts of bad, since it wont pen any armor without having bad strength, or it wont wound for crap when it does pen armor (S1 AP1 lawls). However theres a certain allure this thing has since its a 36" pi plate.....i seriously want to field 15 of these things just to freak my opponent out lol.

7) Zzap Gun - Do i really need to go into details why this thing blows?

Bubble-Chukka - This thing is technically all sorts of bad, since it wont pen any armor without having bad strength, or it wont wound for crap when it does pen armor (S1 AP1 lawls). However theres a certain allure this thing has since its a 36" pi plate.....i seriously want to field 15 of these things just to freak my opponent out lol.

haha, 15 would be pretty legit . Too bad it's name precedes it's killiness.

 flaming tadpole wrote:

Bubble-Chukka - This thing is technically all sorts of bad, since it wont pen any armor without having bad strength, or it wont wound for crap when it does pen armor (S1 AP1 lawls). However theres a certain allure this thing has since its a 36" pi plate.....i seriously want to field 15 of these things just to freak my opponent out lol.

haha, 15 would be pretty legit . Too bad it's name precedes it's killiness.

i would like to give them a chance :p They sound stupid, but fun. I mean, yeah, at their 'worst' they are barely wounding, but cutting through armor, and at their 'best' they are wounding a lot, but not cutting armor. But, dat pie plate doe...

Melevolence wrote:

 flaming tadpole wrote:

Bubble-Chukka - This thing is technically all sorts of bad, since it wont pen any armor without having bad strength, or it wont wound for crap when it does pen armor (S1 AP1 lawls). However theres a certain allure this thing has since its a 36" pi plate.....i seriously want to field 15 of these things just to freak my opponent out lol.

haha, 15 would be pretty legit . Too bad it's name precedes it's killiness.

i would like to give them a chance :p They sound stupid, but fun. I mean, yeah, at their 'worst' they are barely wounding, but cutting through armor, and at their 'best' they are wounding a lot, but not cutting armor. But, dat pie plate doe...

Haha ya it would definitely be worth fielding in a casual game. Probably would end up killing more of our own army then our opponents though lol!

Also just a heads up, the first poll is in! I'll update it daily or bi-daily to keep the topics rolling. It should also make it a little easier to update the rankings this way too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also their multiple choice, so you don't have to pick just one

So formations should be ranked also, and Zhadsnark should get an honorable mention.

Sounds good, I'll add it to the list of polls. Tomorrows poll will be all about hq's, so I'll be sure to add him to the list.

blaktoof wrote:
Pairing 2- Im taking smasha gun. Kustom mega Kannon is blast, but at BS3 and with possible ammo runts not such a big deal to roll a hit, and chances are you are more likely to scatter off target with a small blast. Average strength roll for smasha gun is 7 or 8, with top of 10 and bottom of 5. So 50% of the time your = or better than kustom mega kannon on strength. AP1 for smasha gun versus ap 2 for kustom mega kannon. For vehicles, if you get a pen a smasha gun is blowing it up on a 5 or 6, whereas a kustom mega kannon on a 6. +1 for open topped. With spacing of models you might get two hits per shot with a kustom mega kannon though on things like Bikes/ TeQ. I am still going with smasha gun as it has a great range of things its going to instagib/deny fnp and is more likely to make things explode.

Against mosts vehicle the small blast is slightly more than 50% chance to hit, against larger vehicles like battlewagons, land raiders or leman russes it obviously becomes more.

5) Smasha Gun - Essentially a slightly better Zzap Gun...but with the cost im not sure if its worth it. YMMV but to me i just see it as wasted points...just not AS wasted as the zzap.

This is what I thought until I did the math on them. AP1 combined with no cap limiting the strength makes the smasha gun the best vehicle-killer in our codex. Against AV12 a battery of smashas has a 30% chance of outright exploding a vehicle, not taking into account glancing it to death at all.

As for my personal rankings
HQ
Best: Painboyz, hands down. FNP saves on top of cover or even 6+ armor no longer means wounds = casualties making many units a lot harder to kill. Especially when something does tons of low strength wounds, you suddenly find your mobs half-intact where they were left almost useless before. The extra nob running with the unit also has decided combat for me many times.
Runner-up: MA Warboss with Lukky Stick. Since you have to have a warboss warlord to get Waaagh! this guy has become my prime choice. I've had him tank so many wounds that his unit reached combat completely unhurt, unwieldy actually works in his favour. No failed armor saves when your challenger hit your? That'll be a bunch of rerolled to-hit and to-wound rolls, thank you. The +1 WS also makes slugga boyz pile so many wounds on some things that they simply get crushed under the weight of wounds. I actually managed to put so many wounds on a screamer star that even 3++ with rerolling 1s caused half the unit to disappear.
Worst: MA Bigmek with Tellyporta Blasta. Considering how it's still a half-decent model, I guess orks got pretty good HQs. However, a MA warboss simply is so much better that you won't be throwing your small S8 AP2 blasts anywhere.

Elite
Best: Tankbustaz. 15 rokkits, meltabombs for everyone for just twice the price of a boy? Sign me up! Even when not shooting vehicles or plastering some unlucky walker/MC with a dozen meltabombs, the volley of rokkits spells doom for most elite units. They ignore armor, wound on twos and can be shot from the relative safety of a battlewagon. When shooting vehicles, enemies think twice about deploying a vehicle within 30" of your tank-busta wagon, otherwise they risk losing their vehicle turn one and giving up two VP in the process. Even a shielded wave-serpent isn't save from them, since fifteen rokkits will usually be able to take off all its hull points in one volley.
Runner-up: Meganobz. They've got a character to smash puny sergeants, a boss pole to pass half the moral tests they would have failed before, and an option for killsaws to completely ruin vehicles. Unless you pit them against AP2 or rending fighters, they will absolutely beat anyone in close combat, even if you buy as little as three models.
Worst: Burnaz. Drive-by flaming requires vehicles to go extra slow, you cannot kill anything outside of 8", and everybody who tried knows that shooting the entire unit is impossible. In close combat, they aren't any better than boyz against most targets. Three killsaw meks could change that, but their very steep price makes every casualty hurt a lot. Rather than spending 315 points on a mediocre close combat unit, I'd rather just buy two units of boyz with PK nobz for 320.

Fast Attack
Best: Warbikers. They got cheaper, jink works for them most of the time, mob sizes increase to a level where both their shooting and their close combat ability becomes threatening. Good survivability from toughness, 4+ armor and the ability to jink makes them difficult to remove before they start wrecking havoc. While about twice the price of comparable units of boyz, you get a unit that's easily twice a survivable, is capable of rapid redeployment and has some massive shooting, that puts most shooting armies to shame.
Runner-up: Koptas. With their slight price drop and 4+ jink they are finally viable to be taken in groups, since you no longer lose a big investment when a lascannon gets bored an shoots them. They were decent before and got better.

Heavy support
Best: Tie between lobba, kannon, kustom mega-kannon and smasha. All four of them a extremely awesome fire support units for very little cost. You can easily fit a unit or two in any list without the issue they mandatory blocks of lootaz had in the old codex.
Runner-up: Battlewagon. Sure, the loss of the deff rolla hurts, but boarding planks easily make up for that loss. Calling a Waaagh!, disembaring from a battlewagon, running, charging and re-rolling one charge dice makes for some sick average charge ranges. Even without the blitz brigade, charging turn two becomes easy. Sure, the basic battlewagon got more expensive, but the rules for it have continuously become better over the course of the last editions, even when shot into their side armor, you'll rarely have them explode from underneath you. Reliable S9 rams are also nice to bug your opponent's vehicles. Once they've dropped their payload, battlewagon become a major pain in the rear for your opponent during maelstrom missions - a vehicle pointing AV14 to your most dangerous gun parking in an objective and/or creating a wall for your opponent to prevent them from getting said objective has already won me games.
Worst: Well, the zzap gun. You can't get any worse than it is. With a 20% chance to kill a grot and being worse than any other big gun, there are literally no redeeming qualities. Not even the "random is fun" argument works for them, because the bubble chucka is both better and more random.

Thanks Jidmah! . Seems the Painboy is the unanimous favorite.

Next rankings update complete! Lobba won pretty comfortably with the mega-kannon coming in second.

Next on the agenda is HQ's O.o

I didn't include any gifts of Gork and Mork, so feel free to add that and anything else in the comments. I'll tally up the most popular loadout and include it in the rankings.

If you have specific tactics and units you like do use them with, I'd like to hear that too!

 Jidmah wrote:
[quote=blaktoof 608882 7091872 null
Elite
Best: Tankbustaz. 15 rokkits, meltabombs for everyone for just twice the price of a boy? Sign me up! Even when not shooting vehicles or plastering some unlucky walker/MC with a dozen meltabombs, the volley of rokkits spells doom for most elite units. They ignore armor, wound on twos and can be shot from the relative safety of a battlewagon. When shooting vehicles, enemies think twice about deploying a vehicle within 30" of your tank-busta wagon, otherwise they risk losing their vehicle turn one and giving up two VP in the process. Even a shielded wave-serpent isn't save from them, since fifteen rokkits will usually be able to take off all its hull points in one volley.
.

Just a quick note to correct. Our Rokkit's don't really ignore all armor. They ignore MEQ armor, but anything 2+ we have to fight with. Rokkits are only Ap3. D: Just wanted to clear that up real quick <3

Just to chime in, I think a MA boss with da lucky stikk and MA KFF big mek with da finkin cap are a pretty deadly combo. Deploy them in a max boyz squad with the boss in front and hope to get infiltrate. I usually run two MANz missiles too, so if I can I infiltrate them too, and try to get them in range of the kff (not that it'll make a huge difference in trukks ). Gives me lotza PK's near the enemy though!

Also, I want to see someone infiltrate max squads of flash gitz one these days too...

 flaming tadpole wrote:
Just to chime in, I think a MA boss with da lucky stikk and MA KFF big mek with da finkin cap are a pretty deadly combo. Deploy them in a max boyz squad with the boss in front and hope to get infiltrate. I usually run two MANz missiles too, so if I can I infiltrate them too, and try to get them in range of the kff (not that it'll make a huge difference in trukks ). Gives me lotza PK's near the enemy though!

Also, I want to see someone infiltrate max squads of flash gitz one these days too...

This is a lot of points to invest to maybe get infiltrate. Just sayin.

Also I can't believe nobody is voting for Zhadsnark:
*warbikes as troops if he's warlord
*I4 PK
*+1 cover save to all jinks for his unit (Skilled rider)
*scout for his unit
*his model can tank shock

HQ rankings are a little difficult, due to the fact that their effectiveness usually depends on what unit they are attached to.

The Big Mek with a Shokk Attack Gun isn't especially good, for example, but he's a great fit to go with a large battery of Mek Gunz.

I'm still undecided on how to rate Warbosses. They aren't really good for killing anything more impressive than sergeant types and I'm underwhelmed by the Waaagh! On the other hand, they are one of very few ways to get a decent Ld score in an ork unit and they are fairly cheap in terms of points cost at least.

mrfantastical wrote:

 flaming tadpole wrote:
Just to chime in, I think a MA boss with da lucky stikk and MA KFF big mek with da finkin cap are a pretty deadly combo. Deploy them in a max boyz squad with the boss in front and hope to get infiltrate. I usually run two MANz missiles too, so if I can I infiltrate them too, and try to get them in range of the kff (not that it'll make a huge difference in trukks ). Gives me lotza PK's near the enemy though!

Also, I want to see someone infiltrate max squads of flash gitz one these days too...

This is a lot of points to invest to maybe get infiltrate. Just sayin.

Also I can't believe nobody is voting for Zhadsnark:
*warbikes as troops if he's warlord
*I4 PK
*+1 cover save to all jinks for his unit (Skilled rider)
*scout for his unit
*his model can tank shock

I thought long about voting for him, because he has a couple of issues:
- Outdated rules that have been around for years, being ignored by everyone right up till now. Suddenly he gets attention because, unlike the actual codex, his rules haven't changed (yet). IMO this is exploiting forgeworld's slow reaction time to changes in 40k.
- Bikes as troops isn't needed that bad. You can easily field ninety bikes by adding four units of trukkboyz.
- No Waaagh!
- His stats aren't that awesome if you consider I4 is average in 40k, his missing save and the guaranteed hit he takes if a marine decides to toss his krak grenade at him.
- A biker warboss with a lucky stikk, 'eadwompa or the relic bike is just as good as this guy.
- Forgeworld still is an issue for some people.

In the end, I did vote for him, because from a purely competitive point of view, he is a good model.

mrfantastical wrote:

 flaming tadpole wrote:
Just to chime in, I think a MA boss with da lucky stikk and MA KFF big mek with da finkin cap are a pretty deadly combo. Deploy them in a max boyz squad with the boss in front and hope to get infiltrate. I usually run two MANz missiles too, so if I can I infiltrate them too, and try to get them in range of the kff (not that it'll make a huge difference in trukks ). Gives me lotza PK's near the enemy though!

Also, I want to see someone infiltrate max squads of flash gitz one these days too...

This is a lot of points to invest to maybe get infiltrate. Just sayin.

Ya it probably comes off that way, but the funny thing is that whole concept occured to me after I had already finished building my list. So really I only invested the 10 points to give my big mek da finkin cap . Otherwise I just throw the mek and boss in separate trukk boyz squads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Results are in!

Bikerboss and MA boss took first and second with a comfortable separation from the rest of the pack, though only a mere vote separated them from each other.

A little surprised Painboyz didn't take, or even make it close, after all the discussion on them, but overall the rest of the rankings seem about right. Poor Zagstrukk .

Now moving on to Troop loadouts, HURRAY!!

BTW, if your wondering who voted for the last one it definitely wasn't me...O_o

I think zaggy and stormboyz are highly underrated. Zaggy got a huge points drop, and although his powerklaw feet arent as awesome as before, he actually gets more attacks on the charge and making the powerklaw feet his HoW attack means in challenges he has a change to ID many people at I10. Most sergeant line characters if they accept a challenge from him immediately eat a str8 ap 2 hit at I10. Thats pretty much an 86% chance to kill whoever accepts if they are toughness 4 or less and have no inv. If he kills his challengee he then puts his 6 attacks on the charge into the unit at his I, at str 6. For 65pts thats not bad, much better than some of the other options.

For the current poll I voted boyz+nob on foot.

Trukks are basically missiles, they dont carry enough boyz to hold on objective, they carry enough boyz to add into a fight, or threaten something.

Yeah they can get somewhere quick, but the are not as competitive as a large mob of boyz with nob. Orks have a lot of force multipliers they can add into units, which will end up happening more likely with a boyz unit than a trukk boyz unit. That and some of the ork formations give the HoW on the charge if over 10 models, trukk boyz are going to have a hard time pulling that off past the first charge..

boyz (max or as close as you can..if you need to shave some off to make some points for some toyz) on foot with nob with Pk. Add a painboy and you have a tough unit that can make it up the board with easily 2/3 of the unit still in tact to charge...and if you play ork horde.. most likely will get hoW... 20 auto hits at I10.. YES please

I personally like the sluggas and choppas but I know some people prefer shootas. Shootas are win with a weirdboy.

Also buy the damn trukk for 30 points and you have a 3 hp objective taker/harasser with either a big shoota or rokkit.

blaktoof wrote:
I think zaggy and stormboyz are highly underrated. Zaggy got a huge points drop, and although his powerklaw feet arent as awesome as before, he actually gets more attacks on the charge and making the powerklaw feet his HoW attack means in challenges he has a change to ID many people at I10. Most sergeant line characters if they accept a challenge from him immediately eat a str8 ap 2 hit at I10. Thats pretty much an 86% chance to kill whoever accepts if they are toughness 4 or less and have no inv. If he kills his challengee he then puts his 6 attacks on the charge into the unit at his I, at str 6. For 65pts thats not bad, much better than some of the other options.

+1 for Zag. And with his Da vulcha formation the chance goes to over 97% to win those challenges, and his Trait is one of the best

XC18 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
I think zaggy and stormboyz are highly underrated. Zaggy got a huge points drop, and although his powerklaw feet arent as awesome as before, he actually gets more attacks on the charge and making the powerklaw feet his HoW attack means in challenges he has a change to ID many people at I10. Most sergeant line characters if they accept a challenge from him immediately eat a str8 ap 2 hit at I10. Thats pretty much an 86% chance to kill whoever accepts if they are toughness 4 or less and have no inv. If he kills his challengee he then puts his 6 attacks on the charge into the unit at his I, at str 6. For 65pts thats not bad, much better than some of the other options.

+1 for Zag. And with his Da vulcha formation the chance goes to over 97% to win those challenges, and his Trait is one of the best

Awesome sauce! With your guy's votes Zagstrukk isn't all by himself in dead last now, HURRAY!!

My issue with zagstruk is hes a stormboy guy. i really wish he wasnt an HQ choice, as putting him in a unit that isnt stormboyz seems kinda wasteful.
Wonder how putting a painboy on bike in a blob of stormboyz would work.....they both move 12 just the painboy would require tests if they fly over terrain and if you choose to run, the bike can keep up with 12" turbo (since odds are they wont run more than 8 anyway) and the FNP helps with the danger tests.

Well again, use the formation so he won't use up a HQ slot ;p
Not sure about painboy on bike with them. Have to play test.

That formation is utter trash to me. 91 bodies deepstriking...they WILL mishap or be in places where you'd rather they didnt deepstrke to begin with.

Results in!

BW boyz w/ nob and foot boyz w/ nob tie for first! But more importantly BW grots take third!

Rankings seem about right overall, although I think trukk boyz might be slightly underated.

Now on to the elites O.o

I'm thinking missile MANz and BW Tankbustas tie for first.

Second place I have no idea, people seem to like Kommandos sooo...

Is there an option for Trukk Meganobz?

 Random Dude wrote:
Is there an option for Trukk Meganobz?

Oh sorry, that's the MANz missile. Guess I should have specified that teehee

 Vineheart01 wrote:
That formation is utter trash to me. 91 bodies deepstriking...they WILL mishap or be in places where you'd rather they didnt deepstrke to begin with.

But of course Don't take 91 bodies! The minimum size is 5 per unit that's it.

Do you realize that the formation allows you to get Zagstruk and a unit of stormboyz that don't take FOC slot and have improved rules? . Only restrictions is the unit must be minimum 15 Boyz and must deepstrike.

DS 16 bodies with 1D6 is doable no?
If you already plan to get zaggy and a mob of stormboyz in your list , then go with the formation. You can even take 3 nobs with Pk /big choppa in this unit for unwanted challenges.

Oh i didnt know you could get the numbers that low. i dont have the ghazzy book, i need to get it though since i want the battlewagon force org. i knew about the 1d6 scatter, its just the footprint is so huge big deal lol.

15 boyz plus zaggy is much more doable.


Also MANz Missile ftw. Probably the only elite i actually use regardless of the list lol

The nice thing about kommandos is you don't need to worry about transport. Far too many ork units become useless as soon as you kill their ride, but kommandos are actually able to survive on the ground if they have some cover and don't need a ride to get behind enemy lines.

Most other ork elite units aren't a fully functional unit just by themselves; they are a payload, which you need to deliver to the enemy with a vehicle. So far, my experience with trukks in 7th edition has been pretty bad, so I'm not inclined to trust them with an expensive cargo. Which leaves us relying on our horribly nerfed battlewagons unless we want to draw on Forgeworld and White Dwarf, in which case we have the rather nice Mekboy Junka and the somewhat less appealing Big Trakks and Looted Wagons as options.

The Junka is an elite choice too and rather an attractive one in my opinion. Less than the cost of the old battlewagon, almost as tough, equipped with a decent amount of firepower and a ram or rolla for free and capable of moving quickly if you really need it to.

I'm inclined to put the BW full of tankbustas as the best choice from the poll. If you can manage to get enough units together, a Blitz Brigade packed with Tankbustas looks especially brutal.

Also MANz Missile ftw. Probably the only elite i actually use regardless of the list lol

Ya me too, even if they don't remotely fit the army theme.

The nice thing about kommandos is you don't need to worry about transport. Far too many ork units become useless as soon as you kill their ride, but kommandos are actually able to survive on the ground if they have some cover and don't need a ride to get behind enemy lines.

Well put my friend . If only they had access to sniper rifles, they would probably be an auto-include in most of my lists. The way they are now I'm just not too sure...I'll have to play test them a bit before I draw any conclusions.

Snipers are kinda unorky, as they entitle the user knows how to aim. Orks dont aim lol. I could see giving them a pseudo rending gun that doesnt have the precision shots though, then again i think that would fall under Lootas as im thinking lots of snapfiring shots from a high-power rifle lol.

Whether its a good idea or not usually when i try to bring kommandos i always stick in 2 burnas for the AP3 melee attacks. Could care less about the S4 template lol. Its so expensive though....

Snipers are kinda unorky, as they entitle the user knows how to aim.

Hahaha, that's true

Maybe suicide bombers would fit them better. That would actually be kinda sweet if they could infiltrate and then blow up like a bomb squig first turn.

I always thought Kommandos should be able to take a couple of grots with special gear, like sniper rifles.

 Perfect Organism wrote:
I always thought Kommandos should be able to take a couple of grots with special gear, like sniper rifles.

Sniper grots sound awesome!

Also results are in! MANz missile takes the cake by a landslide! BW Tankbustas get an honorable second.

Next on the agenda, da FAST SHTUFF!!

Sniper grots actually DO make sense, considering BS3.

Probably the biggest thing i was hoping was some form of new grot/gretchin unit that wasnt the solid unit of weakness we already had. Something along the lines of little mini-mech grots, since theyre too small and weak on their own to fight along side orks so theyre riding little "bipeddle segways" or something lol with a fancy gun attached.

I would have loved for an option along the lines of wargear for character nobz "May include up to two of the following" and have various grots outfitted with special guns, kinda thinking like Drones here but not as robust obviously. They could be the nobz "pet" for fluff reasons for being there lol!

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Probably the biggest thing i was hoping was some form of new grot/gretchin unit that wasnt the solid unit of weakness we already had. Something along the lines of little mini-mech grots, since theyre too small and weak on their own to fight along side orks so theyre riding little "bipeddle segways" or something lol with a fancy gun attached.

Dude I want that sooo bad now lol!

Buggies and Deffkoptas are an interesting comparison, because they fill very similar roles.

I think the main difference is that deffkoptas are best if you only want one in a unit, but buggies get better if you want several in each FOC slot. This is because the deffkoptas' main weakness is their terrible morale.

For weapons loadouts, I think that buggies are best with rokkits while koptas are best with big shootas. This is because a kopta has a significantly better chance of positioning itself where it needs to be and against AV 10 the big shoota is actually more effective. Therefore it can usually be relied on to get shots into the rear of a tank and the BS gives it the best odds of achieving something with that. Buggies are far more likely to end up only able to get side armour and therefore need the extra strength of rokkits.

 Perfect Organism wrote:
Buggies and Deffkoptas are an interesting comparison, because they fill very similar roles.

I think the main difference is that deffkoptas are best if you only want one in a unit, but buggies get better if you want several in each FOC slot. This is because the deffkoptas' main weakness is their terrible morale.

For weapons loadouts, I think that buggies are best with rokkits while koptas are best with big shootas. This is because a kopta has a significantly better chance of positioning itself where it needs to be and against AV 10 the big shoota is actually more effective. Therefore it can usually be relied on to get shots into the rear of a tank and the BS gives it the best odds of achieving something with that. Buggies are far more likely to end up only able to get side armour and therefore need the extra strength of rokkits.

I think that's a pretty fair comparison. I personally prefer buggies just cause their cheaper, but I could see a case for both.

Buggies and koptas are not the same unit. While yes everything barring S3 can hurt a buggie, its significantly less likely until its S6+ to cause more than a couple glances, and at that point you have to ask yourself "Do you really want to shoot this expensive gun on such a cheap unit?"

I feel buggies would be better for the anti-infantry role while koptas go for big bugs/vehicles/elites with rokkits. Reason being: skorchas. Two skorchas in a 5man buggie unit can easily ruin a blob of infantry in any army's day, especially if they pen the armor with AP4. And theyre fearless since theyre a vehicle, so the up in your face range isnt a big deal.

Results in!

To little surprise, warbikers take the top spot. Deffkoptas and stormboyz did surprisingly take second and third though, placing warbuggies in fourth. I think other than warbikers, fast attack is really based on personal preference above anything else.

Now on to the one we've been waiting for, heavy support!

I'm very interested to see how the rankings on this one turn out, particularly where people place lootas these days.

lootas are versitile, because they have good str, good AP and lots of shots.

mek guns are good because they are specilized. lobbas are cheap anti infantry. kannons are cheap anti tank.

Smasha guns get a bad rep but at ap and and average roll being str 8.. they may be slightly over priced.. but not nearly as bad as people make them out to be.. IMO

KMK are just awesome. slightly pricey..but worth it if you have the room.

Side note: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00AR17SJI/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=25SCX7PSIHMFY&coliid=I3JLO916HC54HL would make a good base for scratchbuilt lobbas?

same question for kannons... http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002UZHINA/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=25SCX7PSIHMFY&coliid=IJ37O3G5M4G2E

Lootas have always had an issue of they die REALLY easy after turn 1, and even during turn 1 against some armies since they have no access to armor. Anything ignoring their cover, even things that have no AP, will ravage them.

I only brought them last codex because my Elites were usually barren. I would much, much rather have my lobba batteries than lootas these days purely because they compete for the slot.

Mek Guns are a no-brainer. A battery of Lobbas will almost always prove useful and kannons and KMK are pretty good if given appropriate support.

Lootas are still good, in my opinion. Painboys do a lot to offset their vulnerability and they still offer pretty much our only effective threat against light vehicles on the first turn.

No Battlewagons in the poll? Is that because they are considered a force multiplier for other units rather than a unit in their own right?

Despite the points-hike, I think that Battlewagons remain a very viable transport. The front armour does a lot to mitigate the power of a first-turn 'alpha strike'.

No Battlewagons in the poll?

Doh!! Thought I was missing something . Thanks for pointing that out .

Sooooo, so far mek gunz are barely ahead of lootas, and there's no votes for anything else lol .

Mek guns because cheap, tough and efficient.

I also like the Morkanaut because of the kff bubble and being a av13 walker, making it a bullet magnet, but it is not competitive because it can be shot down by a single lucky lascannon.
Actually I also like the Gorkanaut cause it really wrecks havoc with his deffstorm, but he got the same weakness than the morka.;(

XC18 wrote:
Mek guns because cheap, tough and efficient.

I also like the Morkanaut because of the kff bubble and being a av13 walker, making it a bullet magnet, but it is not competitive because it can be shot down by a single lucky lascannon.
Actually I also like the Gorkanaut cause it really wrecks havoc with his deffstorm, but he got the same weakness than the morka.;(

I don't think that makes it an invalid option for competitive. Any vehicle...ANY...can be one shotted by a lucky Ap2 weapon. That's just how it is. But look at all the vehicles that tend to run around. The advantage is it has a 5++, grants it to any of your models nearby, and has a decent payload of weaponry, and can wreck any vehicle you need it too, allowing your Boyz and Nobz to go after their infantry. It's a fun model as all get-out to play with. Its competitiveness is to be seen. I still think it's a HIGHLY under-rated model at this point. I don't think people have actually tried fielding it much. They see it on paper and think 'meh'. Even with a congested Heavy Support, I'll find room to field one and several batteries of Mek Gunz.

Though it's an expensive tactic, it plays heavy mind games on opponents as well. It's big, av 13, has lots of stuff, and a big ol claw. If they focus on it, that's less shots at everything else in my army, especially my Trukks and Battle Wagons. I have yet to have it blow up, more or less due to my KFF saving any random pens that happen to occur. In a game of dice rolling, it's unreasonable to say a unit is currently not competitive because a dice roll can kill it...which...would mean nothing is competitive.

Well I suppose I still feel overwhelmed by that damned lucky lascannon (first game with the morka, first Las shot!! )

I did field the Gorkanaut for few games and he is working quite fine actually.
(and for whoever is interested, I use Mogrok's formation. Outflanking the Gorkanaut, turn 2 it is already right in the opponent DZ, deffstorm blasting and flaming with joy and lust mouahaha!)

The problem with the g/mork is that its SO much more expensive than any other vehicle, yet can still be one-shotted. Its least double the price of any other vehicle, and sure it puts out a ton of damage, but that fact that one lucky lascannon can still kill it before it even moves on turn one makes it non-competitive. If it had the super heavy walker rule, it would be a completely different machine, one which is actually quite good. which for its point cost, it really should be.

Mek gunz can put out a huge amount of firepower for the cost. For 165 points you can get 5 Kustom Mega Kannons with ammo runts. 5 S8 AP2 blasts is really putting the hurt on meq.

the nauts rival land raiders in cost without the armor. More HP is nice but odds are an AV13 or 14 vehicle is going to get Exploded not Wrecked. I dont think ive ever glanced a land raider to death unless i also caused an Explode in the process, causing collateral damage instead of just being a roadblock from the same fire.

I really feel the nauts should be ~30-50pts cheaper for what they are right now. If they were Assault and had all their guns twinlinked (except their signature shooting gun, since the 'uba shoota' as i like to call it would be a little broken if it was twinlinked lol) then i think i would like it. I would LOVE to field a MANz missile inside this thing....but wtf would you do that for since it wont reach the other side of the table till T3 and now you got a turn the manz are sitting around before they can charge. As of right now the capacity is nothing but a repair shenanigans slot.

Results in!

Mek gunz take a krushin victory! Lootas take second and Battlewagons third. I should point out that BW's may have taken second, but I forgot to include them until someone pointed it out, sooooo...

Now as requested by a fellow dakkanite, the next poll will be.... FORMATIONS!!

Your allowed multiple choices if you have more than one that you like. Also if anyone has an idea for a poll after this one just let me knows

The Blitz Brigade is awesome if you are fighting a 2,000+ point battle. It would have been much more generally useful if it only required three battlewagons.

The Bullyboyz are good, but again, only at high points values.

Mogrok's Bossboys are probably the most useful formation we have. It's fairly cheap, lets us load up on independent characters to lead units and gives a hefty benefit. It's not perfect; the Weirdboy is a fairly duff choice and requiring you to take a Warboss and then make your Warlord a Big Mek is annoying.

Da Red Skull Kommandos would be good if not for 'Da Boss iz Watchin' which makes them hideously vulnerable to failed morale tests.

All the other formations seem to require you to take a lot of sub-par units for little benefit.

Blitz brigade already works at 1750 points, since all you need to do is have dangerous unit in them, three MANz do that job pretty well.

Scout on battlewagons is so good that it's actually worth leaving some support units behind. Guaranteed combat range with anything you feel like in turn 2 is extremely awesome.

Bully boyz main downside is owning fifteen models in the first place. If you do, WS5. fearless and fear makes them good enough to fit into most armies, even footsloggers. Also work incredibly well in combination with a blitz brigade.

Wow. I can't believe how many warbosses like da bully Boyz formation over greentide.

I've played both and bully Boyz has way more holes in it then greentide which is just all around amazing.

Maybe I'm missing something, so I'd love to hear some feedback.

The bully boyz formation has a lot of tactical options, as it has few restrictions.

Mega nobz are good.

Bullyboyz makes them fearless, and +1WS so the thing orks have problems with, morale, doesn't matter, you don't have to worry about mob rule, and the things they are doing they are better at, with WS5 your hitting on 3s versus WS 4.

You aren't required to put them all together, and you can still buy their transport options.

Bullyboyz is basically saying if your going to take a lot of meganobz, why not make them better and fearless for no extra cost and do whatever you were going to do with them in the first place, but you have to buy 3 squads and they each have to have 5 models.

The min cost for bullyboyz without upgrades is 600.

the min cost for greentide without upgrades is 660.

After upgrades the costs get a lot bigger in difference, most people are taking all 10 nobs, and some combination of x powerklaws + y big choppas that adds up to 10, and upgrading the warboss.

You can just buy some trukks for the bullyboyz and be set.

The bully boyz also pairs well with blitz brigade.

They are both good. i think it comes down to more people like to push around 15 models in Mega armor, than 101 models.

blaktoof wrote:
The bully boyz formation has a lot of tactical options, as it has few restrictions.

Mega nobz are good.

Bullyboyz makes them fearless, and +1WS so the thing orks have problems with, morale, doesn't matter, you don't have to worry about mob rule, and the things they are doing they are better at, with WS5 your hitting on 3s versus WS 4.

You aren't required to put them all together, and you can still buy their transport options.

Bullyboyz is basically saying if your going to take a lot of meganobz, why not make them better and fearless for no extra cost and do whatever you were going to do with them in the first place, but you have to buy 3 squads and they each have to have 5 models.

The min cost for bullyboyz without upgrades is 600.

the min cost for greentide without upgrades is 660.

After upgrades the costs get a lot bigger in difference, most people are taking all 10 nobs, and some combination of x powerklaws + y big choppas that adds up to 10, and upgrading the warboss.

You can just buy some trukks for the bullyboyz and be set.

The bully boyz also pairs well with blitz brigade.

They are both good. i think it comes down to more people like to push around 15 models in Mega armor, than 101 models.

They both are very good. I ran Bully Boyz a couple times (had to proxy since I only own 3 Manz D but I still prefer the Green Tide a little bit more. The thing with the Bully Boyz, is their base cost is 600, but their investment skyrockets. Trukks are cheap, yes. But they are too wafer thin to get them anywhere. I don't think my Manz ever get more than 1 turn of movement out of those before they burst, and then have to huff and puff up the field. They then perish to S8 abundance, so their durability is gone. And since I invested so much into 15 bodies...now what do I have to win with?

With Green Tide, you invest quite a bit, but you get MORE out of it. I usually invest about 800 or so points into mine. I get 115 models base (including Warboss and Nobz), then I add the Mega Force Field Big Mek, and a Painboy. I let that horrendous force run wild, while my leftover points is enough to bring some Mek Gunz, some more Boyz to steal objectives in Trukks and for me to have some DeffKopters tag along for surprise attacks and late game objective stealing. A lot of people think "Oh man, you brought just 1 unit, so this means I'll in since you can hold objectives!". That's not all anyone should be bringing. Make it barebones, as durable as possible...and scare the hell out of them while your other dudes smoke cigars and drink beer on objectives. Because they often can't redirect fire onto those backfielders for even a single shot, or the Tide will get even closer...and closer...until it has their entire gunline contested.

i dont have the ghaz supp so all my knowledge is heresay, but the only formation that seems to be all around awesome with no real downsides minus the minimum point being rather high is the battlewagon list. 4-5 wagons is what you want anyway when you do a legitimate wagon list, but bringing 4-5 wagons plus support and the crap inside usually scrapes 1750pts QUICK lol, so if you got a 1250-1500pt game you might not be able to pull it off.
Obviously the MANz formation goes hand in hand with the wagon one. If the points allow, you should have both. If not, probably fill a wagon or two with tankbustas instead lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i dont have the ghaz supp so all my knowledge is heresay, but the only formation that seems to be all around awesome with no real downsides minus the minimum point being rather high is the battlewagon list. 4-5 wagons is what you want anyway when you do a legitimate wagon list, but bringing 4-5 wagons plus support and the crap inside usually scrapes 1750pts QUICK lol, so if you got a 1250-1500pt game you might not be able to pull it off.
Obviously the MANz formation goes hand in hand with the wagon one. If the points allow, you should have both. If not, probably fill a wagon or two with tankbustas instead lol

Git dat book!

I agree with you, green tide is very good. I voted for mogroks boss boyz though lol.

However I feel you might be misrepresenting how many points the greentide is as you laid out.

10 squads of 10 is 600 teef right there
+warboss 660 teef
Megaforcefield bigmek puts us up to 770 teef
painboy is no 820 teef. thats without gear on the warboss or any upgrades to the mob (nobz).

Prolly going to pick up some powerklaws, and yeah t 25 points 10 nobz+warboss is +275 pts in powerklaws.

3 bullyboyz in trukks with boarding planks is 750 pts without any upgrades to the MA nobs, which honestly you don't need. The trukks with any luck your going first and are just going flat out first turn, for the 2nd turn assault. You can add 3 painboyz for a total of 900 pts and pick up a few units that sit back like mek gunz/grots to camp your side and then some trukk boyz/bikers/stormboyz something else fast that provides a lot of threats.

I agree that the bullyboyz weakness is the amount of ap2 str7-8 shots we see, yeah str 8 is IDing them and denying FnP but theres probably more plasma doing str6-7 at ap 2, which is enough to make any mega armor nob unhappy. So yeah the bullyboyz unsupported by other units, alhthough good is less of a threat to many lists than greentide.

TAU doing their str8 ap2 blast are happy versus mega armor nobs, firing the same thing into a boyz blob is not quite as fun.

I wasn't misrepresenting and I was trying to recall the number off the top of my head, and was under. Plus I only was counting points for the actual green tide, not the added HQs. Anyway, I don't bring the max of 10 Nobz/Klaws. I actually only take 5 Nobz and Klaws along with the Warboss. Any more than that isn't really needed and is wasted points. So, since I need to get down and technical

Green Tide:

Warboss with PK, Big Bosspole (110)

9 units of 10 boyz and a unit of 15 boyz, only 5 Nobz/Klaws (867)

903 Points: So I was 83 points off just by trying to recall. Not that bad for off the top of my head.

Waaagh detachment:

Big Mek with Mega Field (110)

Painboy (50)

12 Boyz/Nob + Klaw + Pole/Trukk w/ Ram (147)

12 Boyz/Nob + Klaw + Pole/Trukk w/ Ram (147)

5 Nobz/Boss Nob/Klaw/Pole - Trukk/Ram (175)

3 Lobbas (54)

3 Lobbas (54)

3 Kopters (90)

3 Kopters (90)

total: 1782 (edited cost, did math a little wrong so it was higher)

That is my usual Green Tide with assistance. I've won all 4 games I've played against with it thus far. YMMV

Edit: Edited cost as I is bad at math. You still have points to toss into more artillery or more boyz. Solid list, but my costs were not that off for the initial tide.

Its a nasty list /|\ very nice good sir.

a Combo I always thought would be very nasty would be greentide+snikrots red skull kommandos.

Want to try something like this one day:

[Formation-Greentide]
Warboss (big boss pole, choppa of da ragnarok, eavy armor) 104 teef
6x boyz mobs (9 boyz slugga choppa, 1 nob slugga, power klaw) 510 teef
4x boyz mobs (9 boyz slugga choppa, 1 nob slugga, big choppa) 260 teef

= 874 teef

[Formation-Snikrots Kommandos]
Snikrot 60 teef
4 x Kommando Mobs (9 Kommandos, 1 Kommando Nob powerklaw+boss pole) 560 teef

= 620 teef

[Ork Horde Detachment]
Painboy 50 teef
Big Mek KFF 85 teef
Big Mek KFF 85 teef

Grot mob (10 grots, 1 runtherder) 35 teef
Grot mob (10 grots, 1 runtherder) 35 teef

Mek gunz (3 mek gunz, 6+1 grots, 3 ammo runts) 66 teef

= 356 teef
== 1850 teef

Da plan- Grots sit back objectives, mekgunz near one or best fire alley. Bigmeks and painboy join greentide, 2 bigmeks with KFF should cover a lot of the greentide if not all of it, big boss pole gives it fearless. Greentides moves forward, in turn 2+ snikrot and friends come in from behind for the smoosh attack.

blaktoof wrote:
Its a nasty list /|\ very nice good sir.

a Combo I always thought would be very nasty would be greentide+snikrots red skull kommandos.

Want to try something like this one day:

[Formation-Greentide]
Warboss (big boss pole, choppa of da ragnarok, eavy armor) 104 teef
6x boyz mobs (9 boyz slugga choppa, 1 nob slugga, power klaw) 510 teef
4x boyz mobs (9 boyz slugga choppa, 1 nob slugga, big choppa) 260 teef

= 874 teef

[Formation-Snikrots Kommandos]
Snikrot 60 teef
4 x Kommando Mobs (9 Kommandos, 1 Kommando Nob powerklaw+boss pole) 560 teef

= 620 teef

[Ork Horde Detachment]
Painboy 50 teef
Big Mek KFF 85 teef
Big Mek KFF 85 teef

Grot mob (10 grots, 1 runtherder) 35 teef
Grot mob (10 grots, 1 runtherder) 35 teef

Mek gunz (3 mek gunz, 6+1 grots, 3 ammo runts) 66 teef

= 356 teef
== 1850 teef

Da plan- Grots sit back objectives, mekgunz near one or best fire alley. Bigmeks and painboy join greentide, 2 bigmeks with KFF should cover a lot of the greentide if not all of it, big boss pole gives it fearless. Greentides moves forward, in turn 2+ snikrot and friends come in from behind for the smoosh attack.

Thanks! I think I'm done editing. I suck at math and I'm at work, so I keep getting interrupted and getting math wrong. Certain Its all good now.

I ran grots before for cheap back fielders, but they ended up getting picked off by my Tau opponent who didn't like me having them hold 2 objectives. Little guys managed to take out a couple of suits before dieing though > Got to love going to ground in Ruins.

An Ork Horde Detachment has 3 mandatory troops, so that list would be illegal.

What is your guys opinion on the Looted Wagon that got WD rules before the codex hit?
It got a bit cheaper, but the boomgun got downgraded to a killkannon. Is it usable? With or without the boomgun?

 Jidmah wrote:
An Ork Horde Detachment has 3 mandatory troops, so that list would be illegal.

your correct, dropping 2 mek guns for a 3rd grot mob makes it legal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bonde wrote:
What is your guys opinion on the Looted Wagon that got WD rules before the codex hit?
It got a bit cheaper, but the boomgun got downgraded to a killkannon. Is it usable? With or without the boomgun?

It got a nice points drop, to make it more viable but the boomgun was significantly better last edition. With all the new mekguns, and bigmek gunz, and improved tankbustas, I don't see the looted wagon boomgun being that useful. Its also got the armor of a rhino which is not a good place to be. I think its better off as a transport for a shooty unit, and putting 3 rokkits/big shootas/skorchas on it. At that point though its not that far from the cost of a battlewagon is the issue.

Results!

Ghazghkull's Bullyboyz take number one with the Blitz Brigade just a vote behind. O.o

People sure like their BW's, makes me wonder if they would have placed better if I hadn't forgot to add them until half way through the heavy support poll...

Oh well! such is the ork way.

Wanna say thanks to all me fellow warbosses for chimin in to make these rankings.

Is there anything else you guys want to rank, like maybe specific wargear or tactics for units?

i still would have voted mek gunz because battlewagons to me are a support unit, not an actual force. Random battlewagon or two isnt going to do jack unless theres 20boyz inside waiting to rush at something or a big blob of tankbustas lookin for a good kill. Its nothing but a chassis for more deadly units.

In comparison, at least the Landraider has some nasty guns on it and fires reliably. Even after it dumps its termies off its a threat that needs to be dealt with. They neutered the one thing battlewagons had to make them useful after transporting: deffrollas.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i still would have voted mek gunz because battlewagons to me are a support unit, not an actual force. Random battlewagon or two isnt going to do jack unless theres 20boyz inside waiting to rush at something or a big blob of tankbustas lookin for a good kill. Its nothing but a chassis for more deadly units.

In comparison, at least the Landraider has some nasty guns on it and fires reliably. Even after it dumps its termies off its a threat that needs to be dealt with. They neutered the one thing battlewagons had to make them useful after transporting: deffrollas.

Ya I'm of the same mind as well. I basically fill up all my heavy slots with mek gunz . Cause dere killy, cheap, and ard as nails just like da boyz!

How about a poll of the Gifts of Gork and Mork? We didn't do that yet, right?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i still would have voted mek gunz because battlewagons to me are a support unit, not an actual force. Random battlewagon or two isnt going to do jack unless theres 20boyz inside waiting to rush at something or a big blob of tankbustas lookin for a good kill. Its nothing but a chassis for more deadly units.

In comparison, at least the Landraider has some nasty guns on it and fires reliably. Even after it dumps its termies off its a threat that needs to be dealt with. They neutered the one thing battlewagons had to make them useful after transporting: deffrollas.

Battlewagons with rams can still make guaranteed S9 rams. Not as awesome as the deff rolla used to be, but still something you can do. They are also scoring, something to underestimate.

I posted a battlereport of a game, where scoring battlewagons could have won me the game if I hadn't gone on blind charge after a FMC
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/610375.page

blaktoof wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
An Ork Horde Detachment has 3 mandatory troops, so that list would be illegal.

your correct, dropping 2 mek guns for a 3rd grot mob makes it legal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bonde wrote:
What is your guys opinion on the Looted Wagon that got WD rules before the codex hit?
It got a bit cheaper, but the boomgun got downgraded to a killkannon. Is it usable? With or without the boomgun?

It got a nice points drop, to make it more viable but the boomgun was significantly better last edition. With all the new mekguns, and bigmek gunz, and improved tankbustas, I don't see the looted wagon boomgun being that useful. Its also got the armor of a rhino which is not a good place to be. I think its better off as a transport for a shooty unit, and putting 3 rokkits/big shootas/skorchas on it. At that point though its not that far from the cost of a battlewagon is the issue.

Well, I think that 67 points for a Rhino hull with a Killkannon mounted on it is pretty decent, since that was almost the price of the old Killkannon. You still get a weapon that your opponent has to deal with. If it gets to fire once and hits something, it could make its points back quite well depending on the target. Otherwise it can be a nice harassing unit. The only issue is that it takes up an entire heavy support slot for just one. I don't play 40K a lot anymore, but I know that if I'm going to, nobody I know is going to allow unbound armies (including myself).

If you could bring looted wagons as either focless (requirements like the HQ mek, where you can bring 1 per some other unit you bring) or werent a heavy slot you'd probably see them quite a bit since theyre even cheaper than mek gunz for the power they bring....technically....but they die WAY easier because of low armor, open-topped unless you spend more points on them, and short ranged.

Hell, i'd rather rely on the Bubble Chukka than a looted wagon with kill kannon. Least the bubblechukka has 36" range and is pretty tough to deal with without an outflanking, deepstriking, or faster-than-my-guys units that can get close with nasty guns or assault. Which also kill the looted wagon, and its easier to snag with said weaknesses.

 Perfect Organism wrote:
How about a poll of the Gifts of Gork and Mork? We didn't do that yet, right?

Ah yes, we haven't done the gifts yet, good suggestion!

Would someone be kind enough to list them all, I'm out of state right now and don't have da books with me.

dead shiny shoota
lucky stikk
da finkin cap
headwoppas killchoppa
gazbag's blitzbike
da fixer upperz

cant think of the last one......

That's all of them. There are only six.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
dead shiny shoota
lucky stikk
da finkin cap
headwoppas killchoppa
gazbag's blitzbike
da fixer upperz

cant think of the last one......

Thanks mate! ya for some reason I was thinking there's another one too, but I guess not...

 Perfect Organism wrote:
That's all of them. There are only six.

probably why I caouldnt think of it

..
Or you were thinking of the gifts from Gazghkull supplement? .
Choppa of da ragnarork, mega force field, etc...

Ghazzy supp has other ones but you cant mix and match the two lists so i think that would be a different vote.

While the 'Eadwompa is freakin awesome, i think the Stikk vastly outweighs the potential of the warboss since you can reroll ANYTHING except fnp and stat/leader checks with it. My warboss has been reliably landing all 5 of his PK attacks and wounding all 5 because of that stikk...its just nuts...and of course makes the warbiker unit even stronger too.
Really REALLY wish we could take more than one relic...i want that damn headwompa but the stikk is just too strong...

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:

 Perfect Organism wrote:
That's all of them. There are only six.

probably why I couldnt think of it

Lol!

Really REALLY wish we could take more than one relic

I know! that way I can give all my warbosses dead shiny shootas.

actually i was more referring to more than 1 per boss, as in take both the stikk and the headwompa on the same boss. Taking multiples of any of those relics would be a little op lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:
actually i was more referring to more than 1 per boss, as in take both the stikk and the headwompa on the same boss. Taking multiples of any of those relics would be a little op lol

In that case I'll take the stikk and one shiny shoota.

I wish we could too. The only book that seems to allow it is the Waaagh supplement, as it seems to distinctly lack the 1 per model restriction. The only downside, is there is no dirty combos in that one, and you can't mix and match unless you take multiple detachments (Aka no Warboss tanking with his Lucky stikk and a 4++ from a Megafield Mek in order to keep a mobile, durable army instead of Mega Armor/Stikk).

I could see the Stikk/Wompa combo being too good. Especially against MCs. Just sit and reroll until you get that 6, since you probably won't be failing the roll often anyway with 7 Strength (8 on charge).

That seems to me to be by design. The supplement ones can only be taken within the supplement, whereas the codex ones can be taken with other sources so may be an attempt to future proof against some unforeseen OP combos with a later release. Not that cap/stikk/wompa/shoota on one dude wouldnt already be OP

Results!

To little surprise da lucky stikk wins by a landslide. Finkin Cap was runner up with da fixer upperz in a distant third.

On a related note. Do you guys prefer running the finkin cap on bosses or meks? Also, do you prefer the stikk on bikerbosses or MA bosses, assuming that you would put it on a boss and not a mek.

Personally, I'd go finkin cap on meks and da stikk on MA bosses.

i usually only have 1 warboss, finkin' kap is my next pick since regardless of what my mek is doing that game it still helps while the other relics are situational for him. Ded Shiny Shoota isnt that awesome when hes got a SAG or relic bike lol.

For me..lukky still on MA warboss. Finkin cap on eavy armor in boys squad. The warlord traits will benefit the boys much more then the would benefit the MANz. But the still can make a ma warboss a tank.

If I have the points, the still can be pretty damn good to make ws5 boys...but I feel its real strength is re rollable 2+ save.

Does a regular Warboss on foot still have to take MA or be a waste of points?

Not actually a waste of points, but a MA Warboss with Da Lucky Stikk so many leagues better that there is little reason to not take it. At 125 it's quite a steal for a hard-to-kill warlord that also buffs whatever unit he is in. In comparison a warboss with armor, pk and stikk is only 11 points less, but easily killed by many weapons and opponents.

Mine often stays unwounded till the last turn, at which point I start splitting him off to slaughter units without AP2 weaponry. Thanks to I1 you can spend as many rerolls as you want on armor saves until you fail two. If you don't you keep rerolling your to-hit rolls and then your to-wound rolls, for a regular 4-5 S10 AP2 wounds on any target. A warboss without MA can't really compete.

a MA warboss is really only good in a transport.. but with who? Manz? boyz? what say you dakka?

Footboss technically isnt bad, but he isnt really all that much cheaper than a MA boss and has a lot less survivability, especially if you bought da stikk. Both are pretty much always going to be in a trukk or wagon, so speed isnt even an issue.

He goes good in either manz or boyz honestly. i would put him in boyz though since even 3 MANz is plenty of pk'age to own whoever they face, adding a MA boss to them would just make them a bigger target priority for AP2 guns and killing a couple MANz instead of the boss hurts a ton more than a bunch of boyz. Also a painboy which is ALWAYS with a warboss's unit gets his points back a bazillion times over in a boyz unit vs manz

In my current army I run a MA boss with da stikk and a kff mek with da finkin cap. So if I do manage to get infiltrate I put him and the mek in a 30 boyz unit and infiltrate them as close to the enemy as possible with the boss up front to tank wounds, and while the enemy is distracted with that unit I flank the rest of my army up the other side to trap their army in. The rest of my army usually consisting of MANz missiles and bikers mostly.

If I don't get infiltrate then I just throw the boss in my trukk boyz squad and shoot them up.

ive yet to get that infiltrate warlord trait >.< it could make my list soooo much nastier...

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Footboss technically isnt bad, but he isnt really all that much cheaper than a MA boss and has a lot less survivability, especially if you bought da stikk. Both are pretty much always going to be in a trukk or wagon, so speed isnt even an issue.

He goes good in either manz or boyz honestly. i would put him in boyz though since even 3 MANz is plenty of pk'age to own whoever they face, adding a MA boss to them would just make them a bigger target priority for AP2 guns and killing a couple MANz instead of the boss hurts a ton more than a bunch of boyz. Also a painboy which is ALWAYS with a warboss's unit gets his points back a bazillion times over in a boyz unit vs manz

you dont worry about or care about the MA slowing down the boyz at all? I'd love to run a MA warboss with boyz on foot. just always throught the MA slowed him down and made the boyz trip

Footboss technically means he isnt on a bike, it doesnt mean he isnt in a wagon. Yea going literally on foot is dumb with MA since you will never see combat till T4 at best probably later.

Same thing for footnobz. Everyone buys them a wagon but still calls them footnobz.

MA doesnt slow them down for squat when a wagon is involved. If in the off chance the wagon hes in pops turn 1, dump the boyz in a nearby wagon and embark it. You can disembark one unit and embark another the same turn, it just cant be the same unit. Also you cant go flat out but 12" is still better than 6" with no run. Especially with terrain making it worse.

I would like to see a poll of Battlewagon upgrades. There are a bunch of neat things, but I can't decide if they are worth it.

For instance, Grot Riggers on a Battlewagon? I'm leaning toward yes. How about Boarding Planks? I'm leaning toward no. Do you put 4 gunz on it or just 1 or 2? How about a Turret? An extra Kannon for 10 points might be worth it.

My impression is that the optimum battlewagon build looks something like this:
Battlewagon (4 Rokkitz, Grot Riggers, Reinforced Ram)

What does everyone else think?

It really depends.

Ard Case, Stikkbomb Chukka and Red Paint Job are mostly useless.

Extra Armour, Deffrollas, Killkannons and Wreckin Balls don't seem to give you enough for your points.

Grot Riggers seem appealing, but they cost just as much as a Mek, who is better at repairing and potentially adds some killing power.

The range advantage and alternative fire mode mean that the kannon is still a good option even when rokkits are cheaper. Big shootas are still viable too.

Boarding Planks are hard to judge. Depends on what you are loading into the thing, I guess. Obviously pointless with Lootas, but very appealing for Tankbustas or MANs.

Riggers are mandatory to me. Meks have the same odds to repair but youre limited to a fixed number of meks throughout the army depending on how many CADs you brought (usually only 3 meks). Riggers are not a model, so they stay with the wagon even when its full. Drawback is they cant fix any busted parts i.e. guns or immobilizations, but its still very worth it.

Extra Armor....ive never seen that actually be used for any army. the vehicle always either just gets glances, suffers shaken not stunned, or something worse. Stunned is a pretty rare occurrence, least for me.

Stikkbomb Chukka is so pointless right now i dont even know why it exists. EVERYTHING that even wants to assault, and some that dont, that can even fit in the dang thing has stikkbombs by default anyway. Literally the only ork unit that doesnt have it by default are Grots (why are they in a wagon...?) and Warbikers/Koptas which cant be in it anyway. Rest are vehicles.

Deffrolla isnt a "bad" choice but its nothing more than a point dump atm. If you got 5pts lying around, get it, if you need those 5pts somewhere else just leave it at home. I say 5pts because if you dont have a ram you are as dumb as a grot my friend lol. 5pt difference between the two.

Killkannon wouldnt be bad if it had S8 and/or better range. At 24" the battlewagon is no longer an AV14 vehicle since SOMETHING will pop its av12 sides in a heartbeat.
Wrecking ball is a shooting attack with a 3" range. Unless its a trukk, this is almost always a snapfire. In theory its awesome but not on a wagon since its not fast.

Boarding Planks are iffy. I plan on taking them every time i use a wagon but i usually end up dropping them for point issues since 15pts for 2" charge isnt TOO big a deal, but it is definitely nice. I still prefer the old "drive-by" planks of old

Due to the nature of the wagon odds are it will always be snapfiring most of its guns, so i wouldnt take anything other than 2 bigshootas (remember, the 3rd/4th are on the side so why would you get them..). A kannon isnt a bad idea if you got a few points left, since you can usually fire 1 weapon at BS2 and if it lands it'll do some damage. Same range as bigshootas too so theres that. I wouldnt waste points on a lobba or zzap though.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Wrecking ball is a shooting attack with a 3" range. Unless its a trukk, this is almost always a snapfire. In theory its awesome but not on a wagon since its not fast.

Man, I thought Wrecking Ball auto hit. It is a shooting attack? At BS2? Not worth it.

Nope, unless they change it to state otherwise anything given a range profile is assumed to be a ranged weapon. Previously it just said it automatically hit a vehicle within 2", but it was only 1 attack now its D3. Previously it just said what it did, now its listed like any other weapon so its no longer just a special rule.

tag8833 wrote:
I would like to see a poll of Battlewagon upgrades.

Done!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also it's multiple choice, so vote for the ones you think are da best!

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Due to the nature of the wagon odds are it will always be snapfiring most of its guns, so i wouldnt take anything other than 2 bigshootas (remember, the 3rd/4th are on the side so why would you get them..). A kannon isnt a bad idea if you got a few points left, since you can usually fire 1 weapon at BS2 and if it lands it'll do some damage. Same range as bigshootas too so theres that. I wouldnt waste points on a lobba or zzap though.

I was thinking since Battle Wagons may end up snap shooting anyways, Rokkits would be better as that makes them anti-air. A very limited anti air, but it might ground a flyrant or glance a flier.

RE: the firing arc. I see where you are coming from. So right now I'm leaning toward two Rokkits on top mounted turrets and a Kannon on a Turret. That would give it 3 S8 AP3 shots at nearly 360 degree firing arc, which means that two battle wagons are usually going to force a grounding test on a FMC. In other situations, the Kannon can fire the blast, and then Snap shoot the two Rokkits. It isn't deadly, but for 20 points on something I'm taking anyways, it seems worth it.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Riggers are mandatory to me. Meks have the same odds to repair but youre limited to a fixed number of meks throughout the army depending on how many CADs you brought (usually only 3 meks). Riggers are not a model, so they stay with the wagon even when its full. Drawback is they cant fix any busted parts i.e. guns or immobilizations, but its still very worth it.

Personally, I have it the other way around. Unless you bring the blitz brigade, you'll usually have just as many meks as battelwagons anyways, and they cost 5 points less for the same thing while you're embarked. Afterwards, battlewagons tend to be too much trouble to kill for my opponents, so they just leave them be.
When disembarked they are eating challenges, which really has become my top way to handle stuff that's stronger than me in close combat. Daemon Prince on warpspeed? Challenge with nob/mek, kill with warboss. Chapter master? Challenge with mek, kill with nob. Hive tyrant? Have him chew on a mek and a couple of boyz while warboss and nob powerklaw him to death. Karandras? While the mek inspects the scorpion claw from up close, the nob simply ignores his 2+ armor.

Stikkbomb Chukka is so pointless right now i dont even know why it exists. EVERYTHING that even wants to assault, and some that dont, that can even fit in the dang thing has stikkbombs by default anyway. Literally the only ork unit that doesnt have it by default are Grots (why are they in a wagon...?) and Warbikers/Koptas which cant be in it anyway. Rest are vehicles.

It allows the vehicle itself to throw a grenade so... still unimpressive, but not completely useless.

Wrecking ball is a shooting attack with a 3" range. Unless its a trukk, this is almost always a snapfire. In theory its awesome but not on a wagon since its not fast.

I've also found that due to the size of a battlewagon, it's very difficult to get in to a position where you can actually use the wrecking ball in the first place. Since you must stay 1" away from enemy models, you have 2" maneuvering space at most.

Boarding Planks are iffy. I plan on taking them every time i use a wagon but i usually end up dropping them for point issues since 15pts for 2" charge isnt TOO big a deal, but it is definitely nice. I still prefer the old "drive-by" planks of old

I never leave home without them and they have won games for me. 2" additional charge range is enough to make you reembark whenever you can't charge anything. A battlewagon can control a huge area with planks, since you are pretty much gauranteed to move your boyz 14" next turn, not including rolled charge range. That beats moving+running IMO, especially when terrain needs to be crossed. It enables you to hold off your Waaagh! for turn 3 or 4 and makes it near impossible to escape from orks, even if your army consist of nothing but fast skimmers (and nobody does that, right? ). If you manage to roll the +1" charge/run range from the strategic table, it becomes bonkers. I tabled a screamer star army due to being able to charge 15+2d6" on my first turn and took out five screamers and a herald before he even had a chance to take a peek at his grimoire.

Personally, I don't take any weapons on my battlewagons. The new codex simply has so many other options I'd rather spend points on than on another rouge big shoota plonking away at whatever.

Very valid points Jidmah, and thats usually what my mek is doing lol. even if im not running wagons or any armor i still bring the little gits because they protect my nobs from challenges. Vastly worth the 15pts for them, especially against big bugs.

I actually never even took into consideration of the BW size for the wrecking ball, probably because i dont even know WHERE it sits on the vehicle lol (seriously GW just give us templates for firing arcs already per vehicle...). i would assume where the klaw normally sits but you can technically have both so.... what now? lol

So....the wagon can throw a grenade? Ok....what does it sacrifice to throw it since theres no rules for vehicles ignoring the "instead of normal weapons" rule for throwing a grenade lol. Despite im pretty sure its suppose to add it to total weapons, nothing says that.

Holy crap i never even thought about that turn 1 assault strat! Wagon 6" + Disembark 6" + Planks 2" = 14" up the board already. Especially with 'Ere We Go! its much more likely we get a longer charge off (ive been getting regular 9+ charges since new dex dropped, with a couple bogies obviously). Ok i need to dust off my wagons rofl i am so tempted to field 5 MANz plus a MA Boss and try this out.

My wrecking balls are glued to the slightly angled piece between passenger compartment and driver compartment on the right - which actually is a lot more reach than you'd get from a turret mounting, but still useless.

I basically glued them there years ago because I liked the look of the bit, but didn't see a reason to put it on the trukks. It's most prominent role is knocking over models, getting stuck to terrain and silly jokes about marines running face-first into the wrecking ball when assaulting the battlewagon.

Haha thats what the wrecking ball outta be, enables the vehicle to retaliate to charging units.

 Jidmah wrote:
It's most prominent role is knocking over models, getting stuck to terrain and silly jokes about marines running face-first into the wrecking ball when assaulting the battlewagon.

Lol, they should make that a new rule for the wrecking ball. Anyone, friend or enemy, that comes within like 4 inches of it has to make an initiative test otherwise they take a S9 hit.

Reinforced ram wins!

I guess boarding planks are waaaay more popular than I thought, may have to try them...

Got a new idea for a poll probably should have lead with this one

let me know whatcha think.

In the topic of Ballz, I was messing around last night that spams transports and uses them as my primary AT.
I ended up with somethink like this:
Blitz Brigade: Ram, Big Shoota, Riggers 650pts
Warboss MA 100pts
3x 20/18 Boys Nob Claw 453 pts In wagons
3x 10 Boys Nob Claw Truck w/Ball, Rokkit 405pts
2x MANz 240pts In wagons

Thats a hefty amount of S9 hits between the wagon rams, the wrecking ballz on the trucks and the 12 PKs. and you still have 90 boys or so to back it up.

Im not 100% on how ballz work in game whether you measure from the weapon to check range or the hull, and if you are at all able to hit flyers with it.

It used to be boyz before toyz all the way...if half or more of your army wasnt made of boy blobs you were doing something wrong.

I feel thats gone now, as i rarely field more than 3 units (which is the minimum) anymore and find i dont even need more boyz than that.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
It used to be boyz before toyz all the way...if half or more of your army wasnt made of boy blobs you were doing something wrong.

I feel thats gone now, as i rarely field more than 3 units (which is the minimum) anymore and find i dont even need more boyz than that.

I agree. Seems like the thrust of the new codex is to alter this poll away from Boyz to Toyz (Like Mek Gunz)

Just a meta shift. Changes to KFF, points costs and game scenarios changed everything. Boys alone cant answer enough are are killed too quickly in a world of flyers eldar and tau.

Real shame. Still grateful for the grean tide formation and it has proved fairly effective in many games ive seen.

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Just a meta shift. Changes to KFF, points costs and game scenarios changed everything. Boys alone cant answer enough are are killed too quickly in a world of flyers eldar and tau.

Real shame. Still grateful for the grean tide formation and it has proved fairly effective in many games ive seen.

It has little to do with shifting metas, and much to do with new sucky mob rule.

Ive found that the new mob rule isnt as detrimental as a lot of people make it out to be. Ya its an all around nerf but min most cases it still prevents you from breaking at the cost of a few S4 hits (boo hoo). Boys still hold things up in combat forever and absorb a ton of fire.

It's still leaning on Boyz before Toyz for me. I still bring at least 60 Boyz at the very least on each list. The PKs can answer so many things, and the sheer amount of bodies helps, though I'm often bringing them in units of 20 or so, not the max 30 like I used too. I KFF spam a lot now, and of course the ever useful Painboy seems to sneak into every list.

Though, I have to say I make the most use out of the Green Tide when it comes to Boyz. Even in 1850 lists, you can still bring a decent amount of toyz as well.

I don't really see myself bringing more toyz than Boyz in the long run. I'll bring Kanz, Big Gunz, Bikes, Kopters, Wagons and the Morkanaught, but those will only come after I've determined how many Boyz I'll need for my match up. (The benefit of prearranged games)

Boyz overall are still too important to overlook. Are they AS mandatory as before? I don't think so. But I'm a firm believer you're going to regret not bringing a bit more than you think you'll need. Even if it's just a few squads of Trukk Boyz in reserve for later.

im actually wagering the bigger reason i think its toys before boys is because mob rule isnt fearless. Mob rule sucks for big boy blobs but it rules for EVERYTHING else since it actually works for them.

I think it depends on how tough/numerous the toys are. If they're MANZ and battlewagons and big guns, less boyz are needed. Tankbustas, lootas, buggies etc. And you'll need some extra boyz to to hang around after all Dem paper thin toys get krumped

 Vineheart01 wrote:
im actually wagering the bigger reason i think its toys before boys is because mob rule isnt fearless. Mob rule sucks for big boy blobs but it rules for EVERYTHING else since it actually works for them.

I come across comments like this alot and I find it a strange opinion on the Mob rule. Mob rules sucks for everything EXCEPT large mobs of boyz. Here is the reasoning:
1.Orks have crappy LD throughout the codex. That means that they are failing alot of morale tests, the most important of them being pinning and 25% casualties.
2. Orks can "counter" this disadvantage via the mob rule but! unless you have more than 10 members in a unit you are still failing the test 67% or the time or 45% of the time if you have a bosspole in the unit. For something as crippling as failing a morale for fall back or pinning those are pretty big numbers.
3. Mobz of more that 10 only fail the morale test 16% of the time or 3% if they have a bosspole.
4. Detachments and formations from WAAAGH! Ghazgkull make it almost impossible to correct a failed test unless the mob is over 10 boyz (fail 84% or 70% with a bosspole)

The advantage of large mobs is now pretty clear and with that conclussion the failings of the ork codex are also apparent. The only squads that have a unit size of over 15 orks are Boyz squads and Stormboyz . Squads such as Burnas, Lootas, Manz, Nobz, Tankbustaz, Kommandos, Flashgitz, anything in a Trukk etc will always be under 10 orks or the first casualties (and indeed the ones that will force that crucial LD test) will put them there.

As an opponent the only thing I need to do is force enough LD tests, and blowing up a trukk or killing 5 orks is not a big deal.
As an ork player I have to find ways to cover my LD failings which can only really be done from the HQ slot and the warlord traits. Or play footsloggers.

 sn0zcumb3r wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
im actually wagering the bigger reason i think its toys before boys is because mob rule isnt fearless. Mob rule sucks for big boy blobs but it rules for EVERYTHING else since it actually works for them.

I come across comments like this alot and I find it a strange opinion on the Mob rule. Mob rules sucks for everything EXCEPT large mobs of boyz. Here is the reasoning:
1.Orks have crappy LD throughout the codex. That means that they are failing alot of morale tests, the most important of them being pinning and 25% casualties.
2. Orks can "counter" this disadvantage via the mob rule but! unless you have more than 10 members in a unit you are still failing the test 67% or the time or 45% of the time if you have a bosspole in the unit. For something as crippling as failing a morale for fall back or pinning those are pretty big numbers.
3. Mobz of more that 10 only fail the morale test 16% of the time or 3% if they have a bosspole.

Actually, those numbers aren't big at all. Outright passing an LD7 test happens 58.33% of the time. With a single role of mob rule you get to passing 72.22% of all tests, with a boss pole you get to pass 81.48% of your tests. In comparison, LD8 passes 72.22% as well, LD9 passes 83.33% and LD7 with a reroll passes 82.64%. Basically a unit with a character and a boss poles is LD9 outside of combat and even better in combat - something that benefits small mobs a lot.

Besides, picking high numbers for your point and low numbers for your counterpoint is an easy way to spot a weak argument.

4. Detachments and formations from WAAAGH! Ghazgkull make it almost impossible to correct a failed test unless the mob is over 10 boyz (fail 84% or 70% with a bosspole)

True, unless you are fearless (Council of Waaagh, Bully Boyz, Big Boss Pole), consists of nothing but vehicles (dread mob, blitz brigade) or are made up of a huge mass of models anyways (red skull kommandoz, da vulcha skwad, green tide). Of course, you could pick small units with a Greater Waaagh! Detachment, but you can also field a Clan Raukan army without vehicles and then complain about the supplement not buffing your army.

The advantage of large mobs is now pretty clear and with that conclussion the failings of the ork codex are also apparent. The only squads that have a unit size of over 15 orks are Boyz squads and Stormboyz . Squads such as Burnas, Lootas, Manz, Nobz, Tankbustaz, Kommandos, Flashgitz, anything in a Trukk etc will always be under 10 orks or the first casualties (and indeed the ones that will force that crucial LD test) will put them there.

Anything in a trukk will most likely be standing next to a wreck in full force. Someone already did the math on how unlikely trukk explosions are nowadays.

As an opponent the only thing I need to do is force enough LD tests, and blowing up a trukk or killing 5 orks is not a big deal.

Blowing up a battlewagon is a big deal. And even if you kill those 5 orks, that leadership test will do absolutely nothing four out of five times, except maybe remove an additional model or two.

As an ork player I have to find ways to cover my LD failings which can only really be done from the HQ slot and the warlord traits. Or play footsloggers.

If you think of the equivalent of LD9 as the worst any mob in the codex can do as "LD failings", I wonder what you think about the "LD failings" of other armies, which aren't all LD10. The only time LD regularly fails me is in fear tests, and it's not that hard to plan around.

I have not yet failed a single pinning or moral test with the new codex all thanks to mob rule. Claiming it's a bad rule is utter nonsense, both in theory and in practice.

It seems more players prefer the toyz before boyz now. I chose toyz personally just because outside of running green tide or infiltrating a blob on the enemy's doorstep, boyz aren't my primary offense anymore. Their still a key component of any army, but now you don't need to take a minimum of 90-120 boyz like you did before, which after upgrades and such would start adding up pretty fast.

I've actually found that taking as little boyz as possible makes the army stronger than spending more points on additional boyz. There a just so many good unit around now, you no longer have to rely on boyz at all.

It's hard for me to understand all that 'Chart' approach. How can a bikerboss be better than regular boss? That's just bikerboss is used with bikers or koptas while regular boss is used with footslogging or with boyz in transport. That's 2 different approaches and none of them is better or worse.

Ork dex has good internal ballance but your forces require synergy to work. No need to take a bikerboss in footslogging list but he's essential for speed freaks. No need to take a warboss in a walker-spam list - you're better off with kff meks and painboyz for blobs. Etc.

It's only appropriate to compare unit's effectiveness in certain lists and not on the whole.

Not at all. I even put a bikerboss with footsloggers, simply for the T6 and option to dart away from the mob and lock a second unit in combat or taking on a walker in close combat. I don't see a reason to field a warboss without either MA(in transport) or bike(outside of transport), and I think the poll reflects that perfectly.

As for walker-spam: There is very little spam you can do without eventually being able to fulfill the requirements for the dreadmob formation - at that point you'd want a warboss as your warlord again because the walkers from that formation can benefit from the Waaagh! as well.

 Jidmah wrote:
Not at all. I even put a bikerboss with footsloggers, simply for the T6 and option to dart away from the mob and lock a second unit in combat or taking on a walker in close combat. I don't see a reason to field a warboss without either MA(in transport) or bike(outside of transport), and I think the poll reflects that perfectly.

Boyz don't benefit from run + charge and can't shoot overwatch if theyre joined by a megaboss for example. That's quite a disadvantage even for a battlewagon squad. If you want extra mobility - you go with a regular boss, if you want 2+ rerollable, you go with a megaboss + lukky stix. Nothing of theese is better or worse. They're just 2 equal options.

Trying to rate such things feels like song charts. Useless.

Shooting overwatch with sluggas is kind of neglectable, running and charging is rarely need from battlewagons with planks. I usually call the Waaagh! for a second charge phase of the game - if the boyz mob really needs that run to make the charge, I simply unattach the warboss in the movement phase and hide it/join another squad/charge something that can't hurt it.

I would never field a warboss without MA in a battlewagon, and apparently a good number of other people think so, too. In combination with da lukky stick, the difference in power to a regular warboss is simply off the chart.

Not much cheaper either to avoid the MA. The benefit of being able to run/fire overwatch/sweeping advance is pretty minimal when compared to getting a 2+ rerollable armor save especially when youre probably going to kill them dead anyway before they run.

Warboss w/o MA would cost roughly 119pts, thats including da stikk, 'eavy armor, bp, and pk. His killing potential is only different when facing things that have AP4 weapons or a ton of attacks where the 2+ armor will REALLY come in handy...guess what that happens all the damn time.

Warboss with MA costs 130pts including the stikk and bp. 11pts gives you a 2+ armor...vastly improving your survivability, slightly better shooting (TL shoota vs slugga), equal melee killing power (same exact weapon), at the cost of not running or sweeping advance.
How many times do things flee from a warboss anyway? Im shocked if my warbosses ever stay locked in combat or force a unit to run - usually they + the rest of their unit just obliterate the target.

Theres just no point to bringing a footboss vs maboss. 11pts is NOTHING but the difference in armor is highly noticable.

I've seen quite a few games where snp was enough a drawback to lose a game even with 2+ rerollable. Yep, on paper this 3-4 inches are not amazing and 2+ rerollable is really great...but we're playing vs real opponents that get more chances to out-manouvre you and focus on other threats or shoot the boyz from the flank and focus the boss down with ap2 weaponry either in mellee or from range. It's not better or worse. It's just different.

Against "real" opponents my MA warboss tends to murder 2-3 units without losing as much as a single boy or wound, resulting in a full strength mob of 20 in turn 5. You can't out-manouvre something that has an average charge range of 20" without sacrificing shooting.

"Focusing" also doesn't work at all. 2+ LoS! make all those expensive AP2 guns kill a 6 point boy, at which point you are shooting anti-tank at light infantry. In combat you can't focus the warboss, because someone is eating challenges for him - outside of that I get to pick what you wound.

The MA warboss with stikk has single-handedly won me games, can't say that much about a regular warboss. A regular warboss is going to die over the course of a game, a MA warboss is not. Running and sweeping is rarely needed, and you get a lot in return which is always useful.

My MA Boss with stikk went against an Eldar guy (forget his name, ML4 bastard) that kept popping Force and he has Fleshbane on his weapon, but it just "happened" to be AP3 rather than 2. He wounded me 8 times in 2 rounds of combat (damn 3++ saved his bacon first round) and i failed 3 of them, and normally only 1 would be the death of me except for da stikk reroll. My boss killed his boss purely because i had da stikk backing me up, i should not have won that fight since he strikes first, hits on 3s, wounds on 2s, and only needed 1 hit while i hit on 4s and had less attacks attacking last.

Even if you pen his 2+ armor hes a T5 model, theres not many commonly seen shooting attacks outside Eldar that are S10. If i somehow fail a 2+ LoS, i got FNP to fall back on at least (cant reroll that but i still get it) and the KFF thats near me, which i can reroll.

Also, regarding the lack of sweeping advance, face it how many people do you face that isnt some form of marine anyway? If they arent a marine, you probably completely wiped the unit to begin with (thats how it usually happens for me, marines are usually the only people to survive the initial slaughter of my boss's unit). You cant sweep them anyway.

On another note of the stikk, have you ever thought about how crazy nasty a big blob of boyz is with WS5 AND the Command trait to reroll to hits of 1 in combat? I managed to snag that on my warbiker + boss combo which had the stikk in it. That...was crazy lol...basically hit EVERYTHING since i hit on 3s rerolled 1s.