Hello folks i was just curious as to where do you think i should start off building a Grey Knight army im picking up the Codex this friday and was curious to everyones thoughts
After looking at the leaked codex, I would get a refund. Grey Knights look to be about as awful as Dark Angels. One or two good units and the rest is trash.
Buy a lot of Dread Knights if you are set on taking them.
The codex got mostly nerfs, half the models got ripped out.
One model got quite a lot of buffs the Dreadknight; overall I would recommend staying away from Grey Knights now. Everyone does what they do but better.
EDIT: Of course if you looking for a deal on a bunch of models...
He took almost a straight 1 point hit across his stat line, though. He hits everything at str 7 now, but no longer hits demons at str10.
Gate is good for sure, but has a higher risk level in casting. His point decrease helps, but you have to pay a HQ tax now since he's a lord of war. Granted, our new Librarian is much cheaper, so that helps too.
Oof, Crowe got a total brow beating, along with Champs. No more rending makes him punch like a 12 year old. When he dies, he throws 1 naked baby punch. That's it.
"Grandmaster" AKA ML3 Brother Captain is OK, but lost access to A LOT of toys. No more Grand Strategy, orbital bombs every turn... etc etc etc.
How about Crowe and a Grandmaster?
Strikes are still a solid choice.
Crowe and Grandmaster seems horrible IMO.
Strikes are too expensive marines. What made them OK in last edition was the psyammo. The change to psycannons is also a small nerf.
Totally agree. Psycannons are nearly unusable on them with salvo unless you attach a terminator armor IC to slow and purposeful them. Shooting twice at a range of 12 inches when you move and then not being able to assault is laughable at best and a total slap in the face at worst.
How about Crowe and a Grandmaster?
Strikes are still a solid choice.
Crowe and Grandmaster seems horrible IMO.
Strikes are too expensive marines. What made them OK in last edition was the psyammo. The change to psycannons is also a small nerf.
Totally agree. Psycannons are nearly unusable on them with salvo unless you attach a terminator armor IC to slow and purposeful them. Shooting twice at a range of 12 inches when you move and then not being able to assault is laughable at best and a total slap in the face at worst.
Not to forget that the old strikes in 5.ed priced at 20 points (same as now) had access to the great pscychic power warp quake. Great for anti deep strike.
From what I've seen, I generally agree with Goldphish and katfude. This is going to be a bit of a rant.
In terms of HQs other than the Libby, there's basically nothing good.
There's no real reason to take a GM anymore, as Grand Strategy is now just the warlord traits table, and not as useful. So Bro-captains/GMs are just psyker Captains/CMs without the capability of actually being a beatstick. The psyker is nice, but too expensive iirc compared to a Libby. Crowe is now total terribad, there's no benefit to purifiers that I saw from taking him, and he's lost his 4+ rending, so he's totally useless outside of a challenge. Heroic Sac is now just an attack, not a removes-from-play At least he's now an IC. Bro-Champs are also terribad, and actually nerfed from the 5th Ed. Codex with a huge points increase for no discernible reason. Draigo is now a LoW, so no longer here, but he's not terrible. He at least has AP2 back, at S7 all the time, but he's lost the ability to choose powers that he gained in 7th. He does come with Gate standard though, so you can put him into a Cent-star or something if you need guaranteed Gate. Specialized grenades are now gone from GK, so no reason to take GMs or Techmarines for that. Psyk-out grenades now can be thrown and cause perils when thrown, but now they only remove +1 attack for charging from psykers instead of an Init drop, so good luck taking on Greater Daemons!
Elites. Paladins have nerds and some buffs. Apothecaries got cheaper I think, but now CC weapons need points to buy, so overall I dunno. Purifiers are also okay b/c they're ML2 iirc, but nova powers are still hard to pull off.
Troops. Strikes are, imo, bad now. They have maybe one role, and that is to DS in (if they didn't lose that too), and use a S6 flamer. Let's just go into Ranged weapons for a second. Psycannons are now terribad on strikes and anything that isn't Relentless (remember that Relentless is by model not by unit, so no granting it from Terminator ICs) because they are Salvo weapons. On Terminators they're like they used to be, but on PAGK they totally take away your mobility. Psilencers gained Force, which seems better than it is, until you realize that it's still S4, so the only thing they're really good against is, you guessed it, Tyranid Warriors (Bloodcrushers too, but nobody takes those either). Like Tyranid Warriors needed any more hard counters. Still, now that Psybolt ammo is no longer a thing, putting out a bunch of S4 is about the best that GK can do. Oh yeah, psybolt ammo is gone, so GK no longer has significant ranged firepower. Oh, btw, all GK transports lost Psychic Pilot, so no more razorback spam, both because they are now S5 instead of a useful S6, and no longer give you WC (which is a 7th buff, but GW is still thinking that GK are 5th Edition Overpowered, so nerds all around). Terminators got some side-grades -- they're only about as expensive as TDAWGs, but now they pay for their weapons, putting them back up to useless costs if you upgrade them. Incinerators now give the impactful SOUL BLAZE rule, but no nerfs, so expect to only see incinerators on PAGK, unless the meta is filled with stuff S4 Ap- Force counters.
Fast Attack. Interceptors are still okay, at least they can still basically do what they used to do beforehand. The Stormraven doesn't even have any options to buy iirc, and it lost Mindstrike missiles, so no more countering seer council with it.
Heavy Support. Well, guess it's a good thing I left all my 'psyflemen' dreads unpainted, cause they're now more points than they used to be before, they lost psybolt ammo, and they don't even have Reinforced Aegis (iirc). GW doesn't seem to realize why people don't take Dreads, but then again, there are a lot of things they don't realize. They do seem to want us to buy more Dreadknight kits, cause that's the only thing that really got buffed in the codex. The Greatsword did lose the re-rolls on everything, but everything got significantly cheaper for the NDK. Expect to see all available GKHS slots filled with Dreadknights. Purgation are terribad as normal -- no discount on specials, no relentless, no Astral Aim, just Night Vision, cause ignoring first turn Stealth really makes them worth it.
There are always some possibilities that come with each codex, but GK lost so much even from its mid-tier level that it feels very disappointing to me. The only army I can see working out is max interceptors/NDKs for shunt-punch, but you've lost Mordrak as well for any potential alpha strike. Allies also could be useful.
As someone who also owns DE and Necrons, I'm not looking forwards to those releases, given what we've seen so far from Orks and now GK.
Indeed, Strikes got nerfed.
The new FOC just requires one troop unit and so GK players should be able to live with it.
Strikes can deep strike and so might get into target range for the psycannon.
The new FOC just requires one troop unit and so GK players should be able to live with it.
Strikes can deep strike and so might get into target range for the psycannon.
I might be missing something. Is the normal force slot for GK only one troop ? I thought it was only 1 troop in the unique detachment formation - Nemesis strike force.
I dont' see the one slot troop useful. Troops with objective secure is important. If you take the Nemisis strike force you don't get objective secured in it. And you only get 2 heavies (read: 2 dreadknights).I would rate the formation as bad.
If you want a alpha strike; deploy your 3 dreadknights in cover on table and shunt turn 1. Normally much better then deepstrike. Add in a ally with drop pods.
Deep striking strikes seems risky with mishap. You need to get within 12" to shoot psycannon. And deepstriking stormbolters are scaring noone.
GK Characters and units all having set powers will be huge.
GK characters all have a lot of potential...I'm already playing with many squad mixtures
Terminators will be the go to.
Interceptors took a hit with the loss of psybolt ammo.
Dreadknights are still solid.
I like that Purgators got night vision, I like free soul blaze on purifiers. Means less warp charges spent there and more in other places.
Libbies are nuts.
Brother Captain finally worth taking.
Relics cheap enough to be useful but not too often game changing.
Looks like a swing back to the Water Warrior ways...I'm very happy with the turnout of the book. Toned down vehicle spam and let Terminator armor out of the gates.
Zagman wrote: Unfortunate, first time I've ever thought about playing unbound..... Just to play the army I've played for years....
Ugg, probably going to be Driago, Libby, 2x Terminators, Paladins, Dreadknights running a CAD.
Yeah to bad it's no force swapping from Draigo.
I see a lot of players who want to do the special detachment instead of CAD, but in my games in 7.ed objective secured units have been really important.
Sidenote: As I've not played my GKs in 7th yet. Is this deepstrike 1st turn option available to any pure GK player in every game?
The deep strike turn one are available through a special GK detachment in the new codex. Only affects units in the detachment. You have to roll the 3+ reserve for each unit though.
Sidenote: As I've not played my GKs in 7th yet. Is this deepstrike 1st turn option available to any pure GK player in every game?
I will for two minimum squads for around 200pts each.
But, paladins now have access to cheap FNP and Psycannon everywhere. 20pt Apothecary upgrade is pretty ridiculous. I'll actually have to model one now.
Dreadknights are going to be sick, so will Paladins, Driago will be better and worse.... no chance for Precognition though. Throw in a Libby with the Relic rolling on Sanctic and you have a 2/3 chance of rolling Sanctuary and bumping Driago to a 2++.
Overally, I think I"m going to like it.
Plus, Force on a ranged weapons. Makes Psilencers potentially worth it for instabigging Multiwound models at S4.
The entire army is going to play very very differently than it did in 5th/6th/7th.
I just wish I could make my now mandatory Terminators Paladins. Grumble Grumble...
I just wish I could make my now mandatory Terminators Paladins. Grumble Grumble...
If you use the special detachment that allows turn 1 deep strike then you only need 1 mandatory unit of Terminators and you'll have 4 elite slots for Paladins. Not too bad.
It seems like GK are gonna be Imperium of Man all-star allies. However, running them alone has definitely gotten a lot weaker, with so many options removed. Although the PA psycannon nerf is pretty brutal, Incinerators being 5 pts is pretty spicy and gives some interesting possibilities. I think the Psilencer is still junk though. I have no idea why they bothered making the Heavy Psycannon salvo, with the only possible platform being relentless, but that gives the NDK a very strong shooting element that threatens all armor values.
I'm already looking at running them as my primary with double-blob AM allied in. Two ML 3 Terminator Librarians gives very, very good odds of picking up the powers you need, not to mention the ML boost you get from your obligatory NDKs and troops. I might even get a little greedy and run the alternate detachment with only one troops choice as my primary to let me squeeze in that third NDK.
Also, are NDK any good at fighting the superheavy Knights? You figure with 4-5 power fist attacks, they would stand a strong chance of pummelling an armor 13 target. Even a straight trade is a good deal for the GK player.
I like those relics, the bone shard is the only thing that I don't see being a regular choice.
Fighting an Imperial Knight is not the ideal matchup for a Dreadknight, but a few of them going at the same time should do a Knight in.
While I'm normally against Paladins...FnP is nice with Grav Guns out there...I think the math makes Paladins somewhere around 3 times more survivable than stock terminators on a point to point scale.
But I'm just scribbling numbers...
I dunno, I think the Mindstrike missiles provided a niche utility to threaten psykers in a way no other army can. With that AND fortitude gone, they're just regular 'ole Stormravens, which aren't bad, but not great either.
Oh, well that goes well with the Multi-Melta build. I'll probably keep the Assault Cannon and use PotMS to shoot at different targets. The Mindstrikes were a gimic that only really did well against psykers. Now I can use them against any army.
Stircrazy wrote: Hello folks i was just curious as to where do you think i should start off building a Grey Knight army im picking up the Codex this friday and was curious to everyones thoughts
Don't start a GK army. Not a big one. If you want to use one as part of another force sure, then go for it. Dreadknights are awesome, Librarians are awesome and Terminator troops are ok. Fun can be had with Purifiers and Interceptors too depending on the list but stay away from Strike Squads. And dreadnaughts.
just a question, can a dread knight activate both force and sanctuary even only being ML1? I cant seem to find anything on how many powers can be manifested by a psyker assuming you have enough warp charges for both. Only limitation I see is that he can't try to activate either twice obviously
Zagman wrote: Unfortunate, first time I've ever thought about playing unbound..... Just to play the army I've played for years....
Ugg, probably going to be Driago, Libby, 2x Terminators, Paladins, Dreadknights running a CAD.
Tip: Take only one unit of Terminators and use the Nemesis Strike force to obtain more Paladins The Turn 1 Deep Strike might benefit you more than the ObSec.
katfude wrote: Oof, Crowe got a total brow beating, along with Champs. No more rending makes him punch like a 12 year old. When he dies, he throws 1 naked baby punch. That's it.
But in a Challenge he hits at AP2 and rerolls his failed saving throws.
Crowe would first cast Cleansing Flame, then his unit gets Hammerhand and you attack.
With I6, WS8 and 4A on the Charge that can be quite deadly to nearly any IC's.
Especially combined with his HoW-attack.
"Grandmaster" AKA ML3 Brother Captain is OK, but lost access to A LOT of toys. No more Grand Strategy, orbital bombs every turn... etc etc etc.
I think the best idea would be to combine Soul Glaive with a Psilencer and have some Psilencers on 5 Paladins.
18 S4 shots with almost guaranteed activation of Force seems quite strong, especially if you follow that up with a charge where you reroll nearly every failed dice with the GM.
wuestenfux wrote: Indeed, Strikes got nerfed.
The new FOC just requires one troop unit and so GK players should be able to live with it.
Strikes can deep strike and so might get into target range for the psycannon.
Why? You could just play more Terminators I personally don't see much use in Strike Squads, they are too expensive compared to Terminators.
Or perhaps Terminators are just too cheap compared to the Strike Squad
Good point!
They are cheap enough, they don't have to move a lot and they can get a cheap Psycannon to stop Trukks, Rhino's and Razorbacks that get through your defenses.
Kangodo wrote: Good point!
They are cheap enough, they don't have to move a lot and they can get a cheap Psycannon to stop Trukks, Rhino's and Razorbacks that get through your defenses.
Tack on a TL-LC or Las/Plas Razorback for some extra killing power. I like to use my Razorbacks tooled up that way as M18 Hellcats. Put them in cover and if you need to Shoot-n-Scoot, well this is 40k...Scoot-n-Shoot.
Extra killing power? Don't forget that the Razorback will also have ObSec when taken in a CAD!
Sadly I don't play Grey Knights.
But putting together their new BS-data file made me really enthusiastic for them.
It was either them or BA when I started, so now I'm thinking of adding them as my third army.
Or I can buy arms and get rid of my 15 PF/SB-TDA's from that Army, I never field them anyway.
Kangodo wrote: Extra killing power? Don't forget that the Razorback will also have ObSec when taken in a CAD!
Sadly I don't play Grey Knights.
But putting together their new BS-data file made me really enthusiastic for them.
It was either them or BA when I started, so now I'm thinking of adding them as my third army.
Or I can buy arms and get rid of my 15 PF/SB-TDA's from that Army, I never field them anyway.
I might have to change my Purifier Razorback to my Strike Squad and Heave Support Land Raider to my Terminator Squad. That will put my Purifiers into the Stormraven.
Hmmmm...
How do people feel about running the terminators now? MSU deep striking in first turn has a death wing feel but, I've noticed when using a shunt list MSU scsn cause damage but still get shot off the board.
I was thinking of msu terminators in land raiders for bigger games.
I'm starting to like falchions on terminators. With hammer hand activated you'll already be wounding things on a 2+, so the bonus from halberds is kind of wasted unless you attacking MCs or vehicles. Plus with low models on the table the extra attacks could make them a lot meaner.
l0k1 wrote: How do people feel about running the terminators now? MSU deep striking in first turn has a death wing feel but, I've noticed when using a shunt list MSU scsn cause damage but still get shot off the board.
I was thinking of msu terminators in land raiders for bigger games.
I'm starting to like falchions on terminators. With hammer hand activated you'll already be wounding things on a 2+, so the bonus from halberds is kind of wasted unless you attacking MCs or vehicles. Plus with low models on the table the extra attacks could make them a lot meaner.
I could see a pair of 5 man Terminator Squads loaded into "God-Hammer" Land Raiders for taking Objectives.
katfude wrote: Oof, Crowe got a total brow beating, along with Champs. No more rending makes him punch like a 12 year old. When he dies, he throws 1 naked baby punch. That's it.
But in a Challenge he hits at AP2 and rerolls his failed saving throws.
Crowe would first cast Cleansing Flame, then his unit gets Hammerhand and you attack.
With I6, WS8 and 4A on the Charge that can be quite deadly to nearly any IC's.
Especially combined with his HoW-attack.
Well, he's smashing, so 1 S8 AP2 attack. Most likely he's rerolling a 4++, saving 75% of the time. So he's annoying, but most ICs are still going to smack his face in without hesitation. In literally every other situation he's not bueno in CC.
All he's relegated to is farting out fire with some purifiers for buff stacking and maybe brow beating some sergeants.
I'm also starting to weigh the pros and cons of running purgation squads with 4 Psilencers pumping out 24 shots of instant death at multi wound death stars like Paladins or Thunderwolf Cav, but DAT Dreadknight.
Well as a guy who never got to play them before this codex would you still recommend them to me? i love my orkz and just wanted a shooty beatstick army
Stircrazy wrote: Well as a guy who never got to play them before this codex would you still recommend them to me? i love my orkz and just wanted a shooty beatstick army
If you want to give them a try, go for it, the worst you will have is a cool looking Army.
Omg 1 leaked paetial dex and we know it all. The guy did not scan the storm ravens 2nd page with gear. If he forgot that then what else was missed look at the dex first your self and see if it worth buying or not.
You can always just get a Librarian, a box or two of terminators and a dreadknight and toy around with them. That's about 200 bucks and gives you about 750 points at least, and a decent ally if you decide to go with a different ally.
If you like the fluff and think the models are awesome, don't let us jaded old codex vets dissuade you. You can still get some mileage out of them, we just had better expectations and were stabbed in the back.
Fireraven wrote: Omg 1 leaked paetial dex and we know it all. The guy did not scan the storm ravens 2nd page with gear. If he forgot that then what else was missed look at the dex first your self and see if it worth buying or not.
Fireraven wrote: Omg 1 leaked paetial dex and we know it all. The guy did not scan the storm ravens 2nd page with gear. If he forgot that then what else was missed look at the dex first your self and see if it worth buying or not.
Draigo=every turn shunt punching=paladins with 4 psycannons
Automatically Appended Next Post: There's the Nemesis Strike Force, and the Grey Knights Brotherhood.
Brotherhood allows you to manifest warp charges on a 3+ as long as the GM lives and has the rites of teleportation and warlord reroll ability like the strike force
ductvader wrote: The weirdest entry in the book is the librarian though...access to combiweapons and his hammer is 5 pts cheaper for no reason.
He comes stock with a ward stave, which he would normally have to pay 4pts for, so they gave him a nice round 5pt hammer instead of 6. He can also "downgrade" to the other weapons for free.
ductvader wrote: The weirdest entry in the book is the librarian though...access to combiweapons and his hammer is 5 pts cheaper for no reason.
He comes stock with a ward stave, which he would normally have to pay 4pts for, so they gave him a nice round 5pt hammer instead of 6. He can also "downgrade" to the other weapons for free.
Ah, that makes sense, and the only reason I see for the combi weapons is that the model itself comes with a combi plasma.
katfude wrote: Well, he's smashing, so 1 S8 AP2 attack. Most likely he's rerolling a 4++, saving 75% of the time. So he's annoying, but most ICs are still going to smack his face in without hesitation. In literally every other situation he's not bueno in CC.
All he's relegated to is farting out fire with some purifiers for buff stacking and maybe brow beating some sergeants.
Only if the opponent also has AP2, otherwise he'd be rerolling his 2+
Still, a 75% save is between a 2++ and 3++, which is quite awesome.
I can only imagine the pain it would bring if you manage to get Sanctuary on him! A rerollable 3++ is damn scary.
And don't forget that Smash increases ALL your attacks to AP2 and you have the choice to make one attack at S8 (or 10 if used with Hammerhand)
katfude wrote: Well, he's smashing, so 1 S8 AP2 attack. Most likely he's rerolling a 4++, saving 75% of the time. So he's annoying, but most ICs are still going to smack his face in without hesitation. In literally every other situation he's not bueno in CC.
All he's relegated to is farting out fire with some purifiers for buff stacking and maybe brow beating some sergeants.
Only if the opponent also has AP2, otherwise he'd be rerolling his 2+
Still, a 75% save is between a 2++ and 3++, which is quite awesome.
I can only imagine the pain it would bring if you manage to get Sanctuary on him! A rerollable 3++ is damn scary.
And don't forget that Smash increases ALL your attacks to AP2 and you have the choice to make one attack at S8 (or 10 if used with Hammerhand)
I honestly think that except in certain circumstances you're better off with a regular CAD as opposed to one of the formations due to the restrictions they place on the number of dreadknights you can take.
My book's in the car right now. Maybe just champion's are mastercrafted? Annointed blades used to be. I could be wrong.
Dreadknights are good, but ShuntKnights and 1st turn Deepstriking everythings will be a thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the fluff is great.
Really flushed out Draigo, Crowe, and Stern and made them respectable.
Draigo's fluff ends with his entrance into the Warp...it's mostly about his rise to Supreme Grand Master.
The Titansword changes origin. Even Janus fought with it.
It finally makes sense why Crowe has to fight with Antwyr.
Stern's fluff makes him seem like he's on the way to becoming the biggest badass GK there ever was...Draigo included.
Titan and the GK structure is finally flushed out.
greyknight12 wrote: I honestly think that except in certain circumstances you're better off with a regular CAD as opposed to one of the formations due to the restrictions they place on the number of dreadknights you can take.
Well I'll tell you one thing, the 1 hq, 1 troop formation is fantastic if you want to run GK as 'allies'. Allied formation only allows one DK but the deep strike formation allows 2 and you only need to pay for one troop. Heck with that formation you could do two Librarians, one troop and two DKs if you wanted to.
Zimko wrote: Did anyone else notice that Purgation now have Deep Strike? That could be interesting.
They don't Interceptors and Strikes have Deep Strike, Purgators have Night Vision whereas Purifiers have Purifying Weapons and additional Psychic powers.
All of course have some difference in the amount of special weapons they can take.
I like those small differences, made it quite easy to make them in BS; just copy paste and change a few things
Zimko wrote: Did anyone else notice that Purgation now have Deep Strike? That could be interesting.
They don't Interceptors and Strikes have Deep Strike, Purgators have Night Vision whereas Purifiers have Purifying Weapons and additional Psychic powers.
All of course have some difference in the amount of special weapons they can take.
I like those small differences, made it quite easy to make them in BS; just copy paste and change a few things
Everyone is being put in line with 7th.
Simplify simplify...the GW motto right now. They're making the game easier to pick up. And focusing on selling models. THUS, the INTENSE amount of work put into model building/mashing/painting and giant images everywhere in the codecies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Soul Blaze incinerators for 5 pts though, that's tasty.
Hmm ok so Purgations are still useless. Oh well at least DKs are awesome.
The new Crowe doesn't look that bad. He's much more useful than he was originally. Before, I took him only to make Purifiers scoring. In the game he sat in a transport, never wanting to get out because if he charges a unit then he'll only get 1 maybe 2 attacks since only 1 model will be in base to base with him. The only thing he was decent at killing was other characters.
Now that he actually has an attack profile, he can do damage to normal units on the turn he charges. Plus he's an independent character. What is the stipulation with Smash? Does he only get that against characters or does he always have AP 2?
If only! We are still discussing how we could write the DA-weapons in such a way that it works with the program. The GK-codex was a gift from heaven in writing the datafile
Soul Blaze incinerators for 5 pts though, that's tasty.
Don't forget that Strikes also have this, and Interceptors! You can jump/deep strike and throw some flamers onto it.
Zimko wrote: Hmm ok so Purgations are still useless. Oh well at least DKs are awesome.
The new Crowe doesn't look that bad. He's much more useful than he was originally. Before, I took him only to make Purifiers scoring. In the game he sat in a transport, never wanting to get out because if he charges a unit then he'll only get 1 maybe 2 attacks since only 1 model will be in base to base with him. The only thing he was decent at killing was other characters.
Now that he actually has an attack profile, he can do damage to normal units on the turn he charges. Plus he's an independent character. What is the stipulation with Smash? Does he only get that against characters or does he always have AP 2?
Purgators are the GK's "Devastators". 170 points for 16 S7 AP4 shots with Rending at 24" seems quite strong. The downside is that they cannot move or else they'd be reduced to 8 shots at 12". But if you keep them on one spot, they sound quite dangerous.
If only! We are still discussing how we could write the DA-weapons in such a way that it works with the program.
The GK-codex was a gift from heaven in writing the datafile
Soul Blaze incinerators for 5 pts though, that's tasty.
Don't forget that Strikes also have this, and Interceptors!
You can jump/deep strike and throw some flamers onto it.
And combat squad 2 Incinerators into a suicide squad whilst the other five hold an objective.
Seems like GK are taking a few hits like SW and Orks did. I originally heard rumors that daemons would be stronger when it was GK vs daemons. Anything more of that surfaced yet?
gwarsh41 wrote: Seems like GK are taking a few hits like SW and Orks did. I originally heard rumors that daemons would be stronger when it was GK vs daemons. Anything more of that surfaced yet?
Nope.
Inquisition took hits.
Pure GK went in several directions. PAGK generally got a little worse. Everything else is mostly better.
gwarsh41 wrote: Seems like GK are taking a few hits like SW and Orks did. I originally heard rumors that daemons would be stronger when it was GK vs daemons. Anything more of that surfaced yet?
Nope.
Inquisition took hits.
Pure GK went in several directions. PAGK generally got a little worse. Everything else is mostly better.
PAGK generally got A LOT worse don't kid yourself. Salvo psycannons and no psy bolts means Strikers and purifiers who shoot (most builds) suck now. Interceptors get a little better because of cheap incinerators and that's pretty much the only real buff to PAGK. (Cc purifiers got both nerfed and buffed so that's probably a draw there)
I don't get the complaints about PAGK.
For four points more you get a Marine with Storm Bolter, psychic powers, a Force weapon and Mindstrike Grenades.
My BA are crying in a corner right now.
But they do pale in comparison to Terminators. That's not hard though..
Troop Choice Terminators with all the GK-bonuses for 33 points each?
Kangodo wrote: I don't get the complaints about PAGK.
For four points more you get a Marine with Storm Bolter, psychic powers, a Force weapon and Mindstrike Grenades.
My BA are crying in a corner right now.
But they do pale in comparison to Terminators. That's not hard though..
Troop Choice Terminators with all the GK-bonuses for 33 points each?
Because some feel if there is a better choice the other choice is now junk even if the are good.
People don't seem to be mentioning that the terminators can take a land raider as a dedicated transport. You could have OBSEC land raiders to your heart's content (or the points limit). 3 min squads of terminators with LRCs, 1 ML3 libby and 2 dreadknights is right about 1800 points (I calculated that with 200pts each for the dreadnights). Use the LR to get the termies to objectives or into melee and then just sit on objectives and shoot with the LRs. Regular land raiders might be best for two and a redeemer or crusader for the squad with the libby.
That means you would have to skip on Gunships, I would take those with a Locator Beacon for GoI-trolling.
Normal Land-raiders are probably a good choice, but they have the downside of a limited transport-capability, especially if your models are bulky.
They have lascannons, and you lack long-range shooting from non-Vehicles.
Warmonger2757 wrote: People don't seem to be mentioning that the terminators can take a land raider as a dedicated transport. You could have OBSEC land raiders to your heart's content (or the points limit). 3 min squads of terminators with LRCs, 1 ML3 libby and 2 dreadknights is right about 1800 points (I calculated that with 200pts each for the dreadnights). Use the LR to get the termies to objectives or into melee and then just sit on objectives and shoot with the LRs. Regular land raiders might be best for two and a redeemer or crusader for the squad with the libby.
ductvader wrote: PAGK is still good at what it has always been meant for. Small squads to support terminators.
Lol! Meant for? According to who?
The 5th edition codex would disagree with you there.
Anyway, it is obvious PAGK were nerfed quite a bit so that their far most common configurations from 5th are not even close to as good anymore. That's completely separate from terminators going down in price (which hurts PAGK even more).
Well, Strikes got a big nerf in the new edition.
Incinerator? How to get close?
Psylancer? Heavy weapon. Snap fire or stand and shoot for an already costly unit.
Psycannon? Salvo weapon.
It saddens me that strikes got hit like they did. I finished painting my 6 10 man stike squads with psycannons a couple of months ago. To make it even worse, I dont actually have any regular terminators at the moment lol.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, Strikes got a big nerf in the new edition.
Incinerator? How to get close?
Psylancer? Heavy weapon. Snap fire or stand and shoot for an already costly unit.
Psycannon? Salvo weapon.
I expect if you still see strikes it will be in these configs
5 Man Strike Squad, Incinerator Las/plas razorback (or TL -las) -- 190 points. Good all a round TAC unit, adds long range shots the army lacks. Good option if going for a CAD vs Nemesis Strike Force
10 man strike squad, 2x Incinerator, rhino -- 255 Flexible due to DS option (can either DS the incinerators or keep them in rhino and use the 5 dopes to DS on maelstrom objectives)
5 man strike squad (meltabomb and/or Incinerator if points allow). -- The scout squad of GK. eg cheap mandatory troop to save points for other stuff.
l0k1 wrote: It saddens me that strikes got hit like they did. I finished painting my 6 10 man stike squads with psycannons a couple of months ago. To make it even worse, I dont actually have any regular terminators at the moment lol.
Luckily I magnetized the backpacks so my 20 PAGKs can switch from strikers to interceptors. Unfortunately I did not magnetize the psycannons so I have 4 guys with 'less than optimal' weapons.
I'm debating on what psyker table to roll for the ML3 librarian when he's in a unit with paladins and draigo. Thinking about rolling 3 times on divination or telepathy for either forewarning or invisibility while using the 1 relic for an extra roll on sanctuary for a shot at either vortex or sanctuary. You lose the primaris for either table but i figured you'd get 1 spell you wouldn't mind trading for it.
l0k1 wrote: It saddens me that strikes got hit like they did. I finished painting my 6 10 man stike squads with psycannons a couple of months ago. To make it even worse, I dont actually have any regular terminators at the moment lol.
Luckily I magnetized the backpacks so my 20 PAGKs can switch from strikers to interceptors. Unfortunately I did not magnetize the psycannons so I have 4 guys with 'less than optimal' weapons.
Between Purifiers, Strikes, and Interceptors I have 110 pagks I may tear the back packs off of a 10 man strike squad and make a 3rd 10 man interceptor squad. I'll also buy some of the 10 man boxes and just build all the guys with incinerators so I can switch weapons in and out. But first I'll have to strip my 9 ghost knights and get more basic terminators. Lol
Leave them painted as ghost knights and call them your paladins or something. Also you never know with GW -- you strip them and then thew'll release a Mordrak esque datasheet.
l0k1 wrote: It saddens me that strikes got hit like they did. I finished painting my 6 10 man stike squads with psycannons a couple of months ago. To make it even worse, I dont actually have any regular terminators at the moment lol.
Luckily I magnetized the backpacks so my 20 PAGKs can switch from strikers to interceptors. Unfortunately I did not magnetize the psycannons so I have 4 guys with 'less than optimal' weapons.
Between Purifiers, Strikes, and Interceptors I have 110 pagks I may tear the back packs off of a 10 man strike squad and make a 3rd 10 man interceptor squad. I'll also buy some of the 10 man boxes and just build all the guys with incinerators so I can switch weapons in and out. But first I'll have to strip my 9 ghost knights and get more basic terminators. Lol
Not sure why you would try to strip the ghosts knights. One, it's a piece of plastic so it's not like there's a naked dude under there and B ) if it were possible why would you even want to field naked ghost dudes?
I'm really not that interested in having two PA-armies, but I do play Blood Angels who don't really want to field Terminators.
So I'm thinking of picking up my 15 Termies and exchange their Fists for some Grey Knight-goodies.
Perhaps I could field 10 PAGK at max, but I wouldn't want any more than that.
It doesn't need to be that big, around the 1000 points.
Kangodo wrote: How important are PAGK for a Grey Knight-army?
I'm really not that interested in having two PA-armies, but I do play Blood Angels who don't really want to field Terminators.
So I'm thinking of picking up my 15 Termies and exchange their Fists for some Grey Knight-goodies.
Perhaps I could field 10 PAGK at max, but I wouldn't want any more than that.
It doesn't need to be that big, around the 1000 points.
Two Dreadknights, 10 Interceptors, 10 Termies, 5 Termies, an HQ...that's somewhere between 1000 and 1500
Not super competitive...by any means, but give you a little of the initial stuff you want
Automatically Appended Next Post:
wuestenfux wrote: Well, Strikes got a big nerf in the new edition.
Incinerator? How to get close?
Psylancer? Heavy weapon. Snap fire or stand and shoot for an already costly unit.
Psycannon? Salvo weapon.
Incinerator is going to mean a deepstriking five man squad with 1 or 2 incinerators. Psycannon/psilencer is either going to need a diversion to keep them alive for a turn or you just need to take advantage of the nemesis strike force and hide a bit. It's not the best, but we'll have some points to play around with due to decreased options as well. My strikes might just be 5 + incinerator + melta bomb and/or hammer
I'm looking at strikes with Halberds and maybe a meltabomb. Nothing much more. Deep strike in or ride in on a LR with 21 Str 7 ap 3 attacks on the charge.
DarthDiggler wrote: I'm looking at strikes with Halberds and maybe a meltabomb. Nothing much more. Deep strike in or ride in on a LR with 21 Str 7 ap 3 attacks on the charge.
Purifiers could do this even better with 2 attacks each and ML 2.
l0k1 wrote: It saddens me that strikes got hit like they did. I finished painting my 6 10 man stike squads with psycannons a couple of months ago. To make it even worse, I dont actually have any regular terminators at the moment lol.
Luckily I magnetized the backpacks so my 20 PAGKs can switch from strikers to interceptors. Unfortunately I did not magnetize the psycannons so I have 4 guys with 'less than optimal' weapons.
Between Purifiers, Strikes, and Interceptors I have 110 pagks I may tear the back packs off of a 10 man strike squad and make a 3rd 10 man interceptor squad. I'll also buy some of the 10 man boxes and just build all the guys with incinerators so I can switch weapons in and out. But first I'll have to strip my 9 ghost knights and get more basic terminators. Lol
Not sure why you would try to strip the ghosts knights. One, it's a piece of plastic so it's not like there's a naked dude under there and B ) if it were possible why would you even want to field naked ghost dudes?
I'm just anal about my guys matching and such lol.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, Strikes got a big nerf in the new edition.
Incinerator? How to get close?
Psylancer? Heavy weapon. Snap fire or stand and shoot for an already costly unit.
Psycannon? Salvo weapon.
Getting GKSS in close with Incinerators is exactly why they have DS, to say nothing of their new FoC.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, Strikes got a big nerf in the new edition.
Incinerator? How to get close?
Psylancer? Heavy weapon. Snap fire or stand and shoot for an already costly unit.
Psycannon? Salvo weapon.
at least the 3 weapon choices are different, have different pros and cons.
In the old codex, why take anything except Psycannons?
Zimko wrote: Now that he actually has an attack profile, he can do damage to normal units on the turn he charges. Plus he's an independent character. What is the stipulation with Smash? Does he only get that against characters or does he always have AP 2?
Basically he has a choice of "attack mode" (gainst the Smash USR) and "defense mode" (re-rolls all saves).
If you choose "Defense mode," he will strike with 4, I6, WS8, S4, AP- attacks on the charge.
If you choose "Attack mode," he will strike with the above profile but gains AP2 on all attacks, or he can choose to swing a single attack at S8 AP2 and re-roll armour penetration.
The real clincher is that if he fights in a challenge, he gets BOTH modes. That's not bad at all.
GW is almost predictable, they know we used psycannons with the previous codex so what do you do with the new one? Make psycannons less viable so you will have to buy new models, cant blame them they are trying to make money.
I dont have the codex yet but according to the accurate information leaked we have some good builds. We still have str 10 all over the place with hammer head and thunder hammers. Some of our special characters automatically come with specific powers, which is always a plus.
CKO wrote: GW is almost predictable, they know we used psycannons with the previous codex so what do you do with the new one? Make psycannons less viable so you will have to buy new models, cant blame them they are trying to make money.
Of course that is predictable If everyone uses the same model and option, that probably means it's too strong.
CKO wrote: GW is almost predictable, they know we used psycannons with the previous codex so what do you do with the new one? Make psycannons less viable so you will have to buy new models, cant blame them they are trying to make money.
Of course that is predictable If everyone uses the same model and option, that probably means it's too strong.
on that note, DE warriors with Dark Lances and Shredders are about to become awesome
This new "codex" is pure garbage. Saying that we may have a few decent builds is pure nonsense. We were gutted. thats it. welcome back to the daemonhunter codex days where the only good build is stuffing everything in land raiders. Except for DK's. they got better so pretty much Codex: Dreadknights. I've always ran pure GK builds and I was really optimistic about this release. But I've paged through the codex and I have lost all faith in GW. How the hell can you remove half of the entries in a codex, nerf most of the remains and then asked people to fork over money for a new book?? This is clearly a sign that we are meant to be allies and nothing more. The only decent build I can think of is the formation that tries to kick your opponents teeth in on turn one... thats.. fun...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hopefully we get a supplement or something to fix this atrocious pile of sh!t. I've never been a doom and gloom kinda guy but this is utter crap.
Yeah, it seems GK have had a beating from the Nerf bat. But this seems to be the new theme for GW in 7th edition. And I kinda welcome it a little.
In 5th and 6th we saw some crazy OP builds and death stars. And it started to take the fun out of the game. There were some match ups that were auto win and auto lose. And people were almost encouraged to spam units to be competitive. This started to ruin 40K for me. So I welcome the toning down that GW have begun. And it's not like I'm unaffected. I've not long picked up the wolves Dex and am working on a list for 7th. It's very difficult. Because they took a touch of a pasting too (arguably not as hard as GK seem to have been hit) and now there seems less auto include options. And as such we are seeing many variations of lists.
But most importantly, don't measure the new codex against the old one, instead measure it against other seventh edition codex. Then you may start to realise you're not that bad an army. In fact you're still pretty powerful. Boo hoo you can't have paladins as troop choices... But apart from Deathwing no other army has TEQ troops choices. I understand you guys have lost a load of kit. But they're just bringing them in to line with 7th. Every other book will go the same way.
Yeah OK, so GKSS aren't amazing... But take 5 normal space Marines. Add 5 power weapons. Then add 5 storm Bolters. Now tell me the cost. And those guys don't generate WC, and they don't get S6 flamers. And they don't get to deap strike. So GKSS are actually pretty good value for points.
Losing grand strategy isn't that bad. People only ever used to make other options troops anyway, and in this edition everything is scoring. So arguably they had already lost their most powerful grand strategy.
I still think they're crazy powerful. Any other marine player would love deep striking, force weapon welding, assault weapon carrying power armoured bad guys for that price. Almost any other army would love TEQ as troops, or the ability to deepstrike turn one, or shunting MC's with invulnerable saves. And even without psychic pilot you still generate more warp charge than all but perhaps daemons.
I'm short, you're still very strong. And I'm hoping this means we will just see many different builds. It could be worse... You could have that new dust collected Njal sat on the shelf....
I think you're also failing to realize, at least from the PAGK perspective, that our guys have lots of cool toys, but die just as well as normal space marines and cost a lot more. Storm bolters are good, but still only have a 24' range. Force weapons are great, but stikes and interceptors aren't really that great in cc. You lose 2-3 marines (14pts per guy)and it's not a huge deal. GKs lose 2-3 marines(20pts per guy) and it hurts.
Honestly, all I really wanted from this codex was a point reduction on PAGKs so I maybe I can put a few more guys on the table( a few new kits and weapons would've been nice as well).
l0k1 wrote: I think you're also failing to realize, at least from the PAGK perspective, that our guys have lots of cool toys, but die just as well as normal space marines and cost a lot more. Storm bolters are good, but still only have a 24' range. Force weapons are great, but stikes and interceptors aren't really that great in cc. You lose 2-3 marines (14pts per guy)and it's not a huge deal. GKs lose 2-3 marines(20pts per guy) and it hurts.
Honestly, all I really wanted from this codex was a point reduction on PAGKs so I maybe I can put a few more guys on the table( a few new kits and weapons would've been nice as well).
Yeah, it seems GK have had a beating from the Nerf bat. But this seems to be the new theme for GW in 7th edition. And I kinda welcome it a little.
In 5th and 6th we saw some crazy OP builds and death stars. And it started to take the fun out of the game. There were some match ups that were auto win and auto lose. And people were almost encouraged to spam units to be competitive. This started to ruin 40K for me. So I welcome the toning down that GW have begun. And it's not like I'm unaffected. I've not long picked up the wolves Dex and am working on a list for 7th. It's very difficult. Because they took a touch of a pasting too (arguably not as hard as GK seem to have been hit) and now there seems less auto include options. And as such we are seeing many variations of lists.
But most importantly, don't measure the new codex against the old one, instead measure it against other seventh edition codex. Then you may start to realise you're not that bad an army. In fact you're still pretty powerful. Boo hoo you can't have paladins as troop choices... But apart from Deathwing no other army has TEQ troops choices. I understand you guys have lost a load of kit. But they're just bringing them in to line with 7th. Every other book will go the same way.
Yeah OK, so GKSS aren't amazing... But take 5 normal space Marines. Add 5 power weapons. Then add 5 storm Bolters. Now tell me the cost. And those guys don't generate WC, and they don't get S6 flamers. And they don't get to deap strike. So GKSS are actually pretty good value for points.
Losing grand strategy isn't that bad. People only ever used to make other options troops anyway, and in this edition everything is scoring. So arguably they had already lost their most powerful grand strategy.
I still think they're crazy powerful. Any other marine player would love deep striking, force weapon welding, assault weapon carrying power armoured bad guys for that price. Almost any other army would love TEQ as troops, or the ability to deepstrike turn one, or shunting MC's with invulnerable saves. And even without psychic pilot you still generate more warp charge than all but perhaps daemons.
I'm short, you're still very strong. And I'm hoping this means we will just see many different builds. It could be worse... You could have that new dust collected Njal sat on the shelf....
This.
People are still thinking on an Eldar/Riptide basis.
Nids, Orks, DA, CSM, AM, SW codex and such are the basis. Eldar and Tau are an exception and an error, especially Eldar.
Actually they too are quite balanced with the other codices, the error lies in a few codex entries, not whole codicii. If Wave, Farseer, Riptide, SM bikes and grimoire were corrected then right now we would have the best balance ever.
That said, having a codex lose options is never a cool thing, so even if you shouldn't complain on a competitive level you should fully complain on a codex desing level.
Zimko wrote: Now that he actually has an attack profile, he can do damage to normal units on the turn he charges. Plus he's an independent character. What is the stipulation with Smash? Does he only get that against characters or does he always have AP 2?
Basically he has a choice of "attack mode" (gainst the Smash USR) and "defense mode" (re-rolls all saves).
If you choose "Defense mode," he will strike with 4, I6, WS8, S4, AP- attacks on the charge.
If you choose "Attack mode," he will strike with the above profile but gains AP2 on all attacks, or he can choose to swing a single attack at S8 AP2 and re-roll armour penetration.
The real clincher is that if he fights in a challenge, he gets BOTH modes. That's not bad at all.
DoW
That... is actually really good and justifies the point increase. I assume they also made him ML2 since all the other purifiers are ML2. With him and few units of Purifiers you'll have a lot of warp charges. Between DKs getting Sanctuary and Purifiers casting Cleansing Flame we're going to need all the warp charges we can get.
Zimko wrote: Now that he actually has an attack profile, he can do damage to normal units on the turn he charges. Plus he's an independent character. What is the stipulation with Smash? Does he only get that against characters or does he always have AP 2?
Basically he has a choice of "attack mode" (gainst the Smash USR) and "defense mode" (re-rolls all saves).
If you choose "Defense mode," he will strike with 4, I6, WS8, S4, AP- attacks on the charge.
If you choose "Attack mode," he will strike with the above profile but gains AP2 on all attacks, or he can choose to swing a single attack at S8 AP2 and re-roll armour penetration.
The real clincher is that if he fights in a challenge, he gets BOTH modes. That's not bad at all.
DoW
That... is actually really good and justifies the point increase. I assume they also made him ML2 since all the other purifiers are ML2. With him and few units of Purifiers you'll have a lot of warp charges. Between DKs getting Sanctuary and Purifiers casting Cleansing Flame we're going to need all the warp charges we can get.
Zimko wrote: No, I was talking about Crowe. They increased his point cost but I was saying that I think it is justified.
Understood now.
I think GK knows that their 6th/7th ed ruleset is too brutal for singular models to go running about on their own now. IC alone put him in a good spot.
Salvo: You all knew it was coming so don't act surprised. As soon as we saw the rules for salvo in 6th we were saying"this is gonna be psycannons when they get updated"
Second the new formation solves a lot of the short range problems. Deep strike in turn one and then you are in range most of the game. You have a null deployment army that is going to take 1 turn of shooting before being in assault without the downsides of being on the table. Its a drop pod army that doesnt have the easy KP and can run and shoot in the same turn.
Can still ally in INQ for servo skulls on top of it to reduce scatter, get that re-roll seize etc.
There are quite a few things you can work with in this book. Fixed powers instead of rolling, almost all the powers are covered such as stern having sanctuary or draigo with gate. Librarians are really good as well. Ranged instant death is clutch. Like disturbing
My point is that as with every army you have to look at everything in combination instead of just looking at what changes happened to one unit.
Zimko wrote: No, I was talking about Crowe. They increased his point cost but I was saying that I think it is justified.
I fail to see that he is any good at all. Too expensive, lost his unique ability to drag oppenent with him, and lost giving purifiers scoring (kantor still gives objetive secure).
But as importent: Doesn't his stance (and then smash) now in new codex only work in a challange ? Like the normal champion (he can do both stance though). Outside challange he is nada.
Salvo: You all knew it was coming so don't act surprised. As soon as we saw the rules for salvo in 6th we were saying"this is gonna be psycannons when they get updated"
Second the new formation solves a lot of the short range problems. Deep strike in turn one and then you are in range most of the game. You have a null deployment army that is going to take 1 turn of shooting before being in assault without the downsides of being on the table. Its a drop pod army that doesnt have the easy KP and can run and shoot in the same turn.
Can still ally in INQ for servo skulls on top of it to reduce scatter, get that re-roll seize etc.
There are quite a few things you can work with in this book. Fixed powers instead of rolling, almost all the powers are covered such as stern having sanctuary or draigo with gate. Librarians are really good as well. Ranged instant death is clutch. Like disturbing
My point is that as with every army you have to look at everything in combination instead of just looking at what changes happened to one unit.
I must admit im not that impressed by the formation.
- your're unit may not arrive, go 3+
- scatter
- interceptor
- shooting when arriving is mediocre
- sitting duck for 1 turn before you can charge.
- no objective secured
Mostly good alpha strike through deep strike armies, depends on good shooting the turn they arrive; like SW droppod armies. And some armies (like in BAO ) spam objetive secured. With 18 objective secured units around the table on objectives a lot of armies will have a hard time removing them.
7.ed is a game for good shooting units and fast good charging units.GK have nada exept one unit - the dreadknight.
I must admit im not that impressed by the formation.
- your're unit may not arrive, go 3+
- scatter
- interceptor
- shooting when arriving is mediocre
- sitting duck for 1 turn before you can charge.
- no objective secured
Mostly good alpha strike through deep strike armies, depends on good shooting the turn they arrive; like SW droppod armies. And some armies (like in BAO ) spam objetive secured. With 18 objective secured units around the table on objectives a lot of armies will have a hard time removing them.
7.ed is a game for good shooting units and fast good charging units.GK have nada exept one unit - the dreadknight.
There are multiple ways to get re-roll reserves
scatter - allied in servo skulls and honestly scatter is not that big of a deal if you plan well.
Shooting and run is huge - see eldar battle focus
Interceptor is the same as if you deep struck or not, they are going to get a shot at you one way or another, just when deep striking on turn one you are only getting shot once
No one charges before turn 2 or 3 usually anyway so one turn of getting shot is fine
OS only matters if they are alive to contest you, and you can just ally in OS if you want to(only required to take one troop)
Regarding the turn 1 deep strike, if you have to take allies or fortifications to "make it work," then, no, it doesn't work.
If you have to go outside the codex to make something in the codex effective, that is bad design.
Besides, if the first turn deep strike was so awesome, then why isn't Deathwing a top army? They even get to be twin linked when they drop in with everything and they don't have to roll for reserves
Tannhauser42 wrote: Regarding the turn 1 deep strike, if you have to take allies or fortifications to "make it work," then, no, it doesn't work.
It still works without it, you look outside to make it work best.
Second allies are part of the rules, deal with it. If you are complaining that you cant compete against people taking allies/formations without taking some yourself (barring eldar/tau since they are BS) then that is a weakness on your end, you have the options to make it work, you are just deciding you dont want to.
Tannhauser42 wrote: Regarding the turn 1 deep strike, if you have to take allies or fortifications to "make it work," then, no, it doesn't work.
It still works without it, you look outside to make it work best.
Second allies are part of the rules, deal with it. If you are complaining that you cant compete against people taking allies/formations without taking some yourself (barring eldar/tau since they are BS) then that is a weakness on your end, you have the options to make it work, you are just deciding you dont want to.
I'm adding a Melta Knight to my GKs...Him, 2 Dreadknights, and a whole lotta termies in your grill first turn.
You can still Deep Strike on a 3+, that means 2 out of 3 units.
I would probably take Teleport Homers on them, so that my T2 Deep Strikers can land in a more crowded area without failing.
Tannhauser42 wrote: Besides, if the first turn deep strike was so awesome, then why isn't Deathwing a top army? They even get to be twin linked when they drop in with everything and they don't have to roll for reserves
Because their Terminator-troops require a specific HQ and are 33% more expensive ánd hit at I1 unless they give up their shooting?
Dark Angels are at a bad spot right now.
Grey Knights, with the new rules, seem to be ass-kicking in every report I've read.
Tannhauser42 wrote: Regarding the turn 1 deep strike, if you have to take allies or fortifications to "make it work," then, no, it doesn't work.
It still works without it, you look outside to make it work best.
Second allies are part of the rules, deal with it. If you are complaining that you cant compete against people taking allies/formations without taking some yourself (barring eldar/tau since they are BS) then that is a weakness on your end, you have the options to make it work, you are just deciding you dont want to.
To me it's not realiable enough. If you want 1 turn deep strike - go drop pods.
Shure you can build something around it; get a fortification with coms relay, get a inq. with skulls, hope no one kill the guy on the coms relay etc etc etc. The point is that it cost you points and allies. Allies which could be used on other stuff.
I haven't seen a deep striking close combat army doing good for years. Could you give a example ? I don't see GK changing that.
When it comes to interceptors a tau army will ruin you. You cant deep strike and they have range on you if you deploy normally. Shure it only one race, but tau priamry or as allies is pretty commen.
IMO Grey knights have gone from mid tier to lower tier competitive.
Tyfus wrote: To me it's not realiable enough. If you want 1 turn deep strike - go drop pods. Shure you can build something around it; get a fortification with coms relay, get a inq. with skulls, hope no one kill the guy on the coms relay etc etc etc. The point is that it cost you points and allies. Allies which could be used on other stuff. I haven't seen a deep striking close combat army doing good for years. Could you give a example ? I don't see GK changing that. When it comes to interceptors a tau army will ruin you. You cant deep strike and they have range on you if you deploy normally. Shure it only one race, but tau priamry or as allies is pretty commen. IMO Grey knights have gone from mid tier to lower tier competitive.
There is a difference between throwing all on the board at T1 and "only" 66% of your army, which is what Grey Knights can do.
Well, we don't have a lot of armies that want to Deep Strike and get into CC. We have Blood Angels (which suck right now), Dark Angels (very high costed) and now Grey Knights. The other two armies don't succeed in this tactic because they are overcosted, why wouldn't it work when your Terminators are 33 point-troops?
I'm not so sure on that. Till now I've seen a single report on Grey Knight (new) VS Tau and that player tabled Tau in T3, even though he had Broadside and Riptide-spam. What indication do you have they they are going to do terrible?
In my opinion they went from middle-mid tier to high-mid tier. But we'll have to wait for real tournaments and games before judging on that.
Tannhauser42 wrote: Regarding the turn 1 deep strike, if you have to take allies or fortifications to "make it work," then, no, it doesn't work.
It still works without it, you look outside to make it work best.
Second allies are part of the rules, deal with it. If you are complaining that you cant compete against people taking allies/formations without taking some yourself (barring eldar/tau since they are BS) then that is a weakness on your end, you have the options to make it work, you are just deciding you dont want to.
To me it's not realiable enough. If you want 1 turn deep strike - go drop pods.
Shure you can build something around it; get a fortification with coms relay, get a inq. with skulls, hope no one kill the guy on the coms relay etc etc etc. The point is that it cost you points and allies. Allies which could be used on other stuff.
I haven't seen a deep striking close combat army doing good for years. Could you give a example ? I don't see GK changing that.
When it comes to interceptors a tau army will ruin you. You cant deep strike and they have range on you if you deploy normally. Shure it only one race, but tau priamry or as allies is pretty commen.
IMO Grey knights have gone from mid tier to lower tier competitive.
What is this?
It's not about wanting a first turn army or not.
GKs can land first turn with more devestation than anyone else, stormbolters, incinerators, psycannons, psilencers blazing all over the place, and sure...kill half our units, half a gk unit still kicks ass in combat.
Also, first turn deepstrike is optional, no one thinks it's the best option every game.
GKs are as much about assault as Tyranids are.
It's about that short to mid ranged fire and then assault as an inevitablity they'll you're well prepared for.
Interceptor fire...meh...we can hide behind walls, get shot, run out and shoot. I do it or the reverse with Swooping Hawks all the time.
Tyfus wrote: To me it's not realiable enough. If you want 1 turn deep strike - go drop pods.
Shure you can build something around it; get a fortification with coms relay, get a inq. with skulls, hope no one kill the guy on the coms relay etc etc etc. The point is that it cost you points and allies. Allies which could be used on other stuff.
I haven't seen a deep striking close combat army doing good for years. Could you give a example ? I don't see GK changing that.
When it comes to interceptors a tau army will ruin you. You cant deep strike and they have range on you if you deploy normally. Shure it only one race, but tau priamry or as allies is pretty commen.
IMO Grey knights have gone from mid tier to lower tier competitive.
There is a difference between throwing all on the board at T1 and "only" 66% of your army, which is what Grey Knights can do.
Well, we don't have a lot of armies that want to Deep Strike and get into CC.
We have Blood Angels (which suck right now), Dark Angels (very high costed) and now Grey Knights.
The other two armies don't succeed in this tactic because they are overcosted, why wouldn't it work when your Terminators are 33 point-troops?
I'm not so sure on that.
Till now I've seen a single report on Grey Knight (new) VS Tau and that player tabled Tau in T3, even though he had Broadside and Riptide-spam.
What indication do you have they they are going to do terrible?
In my opinion they went from middle-mid tier to high-mid tier.
But we'll have to wait for real tournaments and games before judging on that.
Arriving a few units at time is a shure strategy to loose. All of the enemy army can then focus on part of yours. You need most units as fast as possible.
The terminiators are not as cheap as people think. They lost the buff from the sword, have more expensive cc upgrade, the old grenades was better. Shure they lost a few points. Chaos terminators and SW terminators are cheaper and you don't see a lot of them in competitive armylist. The problem is that the meta is hard on termies. They don't shoot that well, are difficult to get into Cc, and it's tons of ap2 around.
When that is said the GK termies are OK (not good). The only troops worth having now in GK codex.
Tannhauser42 wrote: Regarding the turn 1 deep strike, if you have to take allies or fortifications to "make it work," then, no, it doesn't work.
It still works without it, you look outside to make it work best.
Second allies are part of the rules, deal with it. If you are complaining that you cant compete against people taking allies/formations without taking some yourself (barring eldar/tau since they are BS) then that is a weakness on your end, you have the options to make it work, you are just deciding you dont want to.
To me it's not realiable enough. If you want 1 turn deep strike - go drop pods.
Shure you can build something around it; get a fortification with coms relay, get a inq. with skulls, hope no one kill the guy on the coms relay etc etc etc. The point is that it cost you points and allies. Allies which could be used on other stuff.
I haven't seen a deep striking close combat army doing good for years. Could you give a example ? I don't see GK changing that.
When it comes to interceptors a tau army will ruin you. You cant deep strike and they have range on you if you deploy normally. Shure it only one race, but tau priamry or as allies is pretty commen.
IMO Grey knights have gone from mid tier to lower tier competitive.
What is this?
It's not about wanting a first turn army or not.
GKs can land first turn with more devestation than anyone else, stormbolters, incinerators, psycannons, psilencers blazing all over the place, and sure...kill half our units, half a gk unit still kicks ass in combat.
Also, first turn deepstrike is optional, no one thinks it's the best option every game.
GKs are as much about assault as Tyranids are.
It's about that short to mid ranged fire and then assault as an inevitablity they'll you're well prepared for.
Interceptor fire...meh...we can hide behind walls, get shot, run out and shoot. I do it or the reverse with Swooping Hawks all the time.
Inquisition got worse. Grey Knights got better.
Compared to a drop pod SW army with 2 plasma and meltas etc in each squad, the GKs storm bolters, psillincar and incernators is not that impressive. I predict a few 4+ models lost and some hull points. The ones who have bad save are usually hordes so can loose some models.
adamsouza wrote: Except you can Deepstrike your enitre army turn 1, before his SW Drop Pods arrive, eliminate what he has on the board, and table him round 1.
If you could turn 1 deepstrike an entire army with as much ranged heavy hitting power as SW it would just be broken.
Truth.
But let's not play the this army can beat that army game. GK's have been throwing down wolf face since they were the Daemonhunters book.
adamsouza wrote: Except you can Deepstrike your enitre army turn 1, before his SW Drop Pods arrive, eliminate what he has on the board, and table him round 1.
If you could turn 1 deepstrike an entire army with as much ranged heavy hitting power as SW it would just be broken.
I'm not shure i understand what you mean. Player going first can't table someone after playerturn 1, it's after gameturn 1. So the SW would get his drop pods in (half of them rounded up).
When two deep striking armies meet each other it's a huge advantage going second.
The SW player would for shure get half of his pods. The GK player would have to roll 3+ for each of his units.
That was my point, people are wish listing more heavy dakka and cheaper MEQ troops. If Grey Knights had either of those they would be broken good.
As it is now
Turn 1 let your opponent shoot at nothing on your board side.
Then drop your entire army on his board side, shoot and run.
Turn 2 Make a mockery of their psykers as deny the witch everything. Take some return fire and weather assaults.
Dominate your psyhic phase, crush whats left of his amry with your augmented troops
Repeat Turn 2 as needed.
Remember that, with luck, you could deepstrike close enough to control/deny all objectives turn 1
adamsouza wrote: Except you can Deepstrike your enitre army turn 1, before his SW Drop Pods arrive, eliminate what he has on the board, and table him round 1.
If you could turn 1 deepstrike an entire army with as much ranged heavy hitting power as SW it would just be broken.
I'm not shure i understand what you mean. Player going first can't table someone after playerturn 1, it's after gameturn 1. So the SW would get his drop pods in (half of them rounded up).
When two deep striking armies meet each other it's a huge advantage going second.
The SW player would for shure get half of his pods. The GK player would have to roll 3+ for each of his units.
I'm operating under the assumption that reserves for other armies came in starting on turn 2.
That was my point, people are wish listing more heavy dakka and cheaper MEQ troops. If Grey Knights had either of those they would be broken good.
As it is now
Turn 1 let your opponent shoot at nothing on your board side.
Then drop your entire army on his board side, shoot and run.
Turn 2 Make a mockery of their psykers as deny the witch everything. Take some return fire and weather assaults.
Dominate your psyhic phase, crush whats left of his amry with your augmented troops
Repeat Turn 2 as needed.
Remember that, with luck, you could deepstrike close enough to control/deny all objectives turn 1
Sound like a Grey Knight movie, not a game against a good oponent.
Except you can Deepstrike your enitre army turn 1, before his SW Drop Pods arrive, eliminate what he has on the board, and table him round 1.
If you could turn 1 deepstrike an entire army with as much ranged heavy hitting power as SW it would just be broken.
I'm not shure i understand what you mean. Player going first can't table someone after playerturn 1, it's after gameturn 1. So the SW would get his drop pods in (half of them rounded up).
When two deep striking armies meet each other it's a huge advantage going second.
The SW player would for shure get half of his pods. The GK player would have to roll 3+ for each of his units.
I'm operating under the assumption that reserves for other armies came in starting on turn 2.
? We we're talking about the GK formation versus SW drop pods. Half the pods (rounded up) will always arrive in turn one. It the enemy don't have pods and are facing the GK formation, none good players will put anything in reserve.
Yeah, it seems GK have had a beating from the Nerf bat. But this seems to be the new theme for GW in 7th edition. And I kinda welcome it a little.
In 5th and 6th we saw some crazy OP builds and death stars. And it started to take the fun out of the game. There were some match ups that were auto win and auto lose. And people were almost encouraged to spam units to be competitive. This started to ruin 40K for me. So I welcome the toning down that GW have begun. And it's not like I'm unaffected. I've not long picked up the wolves Dex and am working on a list for 7th. It's very difficult. Because they took a touch of a pasting too (arguably not as hard as GK seem to have been hit) and now there seems less auto include options. And as such we are seeing many variations of lists.
But most importantly, don't measure the new codex against the old one, instead measure it against other seventh edition codex. Then you may start to realise you're not that bad an army. In fact you're still pretty powerful. Boo hoo you can't have paladins as troop choices... But apart from Deathwing no other army has TEQ troops choices. I understand you guys have lost a load of kit. But they're just bringing them in to line with 7th. Every other book will go the same way.
Yeah OK, so GKSS aren't amazing... But take 5 normal space Marines. Add 5 power weapons. Then add 5 storm Bolters. Now tell me the cost. And those guys don't generate WC, and they don't get S6 flamers. And they don't get to deap strike. So GKSS are actually pretty good value for points.
Losing grand strategy isn't that bad. People only ever used to make other options troops anyway, and in this edition everything is scoring. So arguably they had already lost their most powerful grand strategy.
I still think they're crazy powerful. Any other marine player would love deep striking, force weapon welding, assault weapon carrying power armoured bad guys for that price. Almost any other army would love TEQ as troops, or the ability to deepstrike turn one, or shunting MC's with invulnerable saves. And even without psychic pilot you still generate more warp charge than all but perhaps daemons.
I'm short, you're still very strong. And I'm hoping this means we will just see many different builds. It could be worse... You could have that new dust collected Njal sat on the shelf....
If you follow fantasy look what happened to that when it changed from 7th to 8th. GW actually balanced out the game system for the most part, and then balanced out every book. I hope this is the direction of 40K because fantasy is amazing.
I must admit im not that impressed by the formation.
- your're unit may not arrive, go 3+
- scatter
- interceptor
- shooting when arriving is mediocre
- sitting duck for 1 turn before you can charge.
- no objective secured
Mostly good alpha strike through deep strike armies, depends on good shooting the turn they arrive; like SW droppod armies. And some armies (like in BAO ) spam objetive secured. With 18 objective secured units around the table on objectives a lot of armies will have a hard time removing them.
7.ed is a game for good shooting units and fast good charging units.GK have nada exept one unit - the dreadknight.
There are multiple ways to get re-roll reserves
scatter - allied in servo skulls and honestly scatter is not that big of a deal if you plan well.
Shooting and run is huge - see eldar battle focus
Interceptor is the same as if you deep struck or not, they are going to get a shot at you one way or another, just when deep striking on turn one you are only getting shot once
No one charges before turn 2 or 3 usually anyway so one turn of getting shot is fine
OS only matters if they are alive to contest you, and you can just ally in OS if you want to(only required to take one troop)
Drop pods do this better. You don't worry about mishaps. You get to choose which units drops down on turn one. You get melta, plasma and combi weapons.
Now the GK formation is much better than regular DS, but pods still do it better.
Automatically Appended Next Post: With that said I plan on running SW in pods with the GKDS formation. Not because I will deep strike but because I can take one Librarian, only one 5 man GKT squad and *two* Dreadknights. That would compliment the SW pods quite well.
@WrentheFaceless: You have a Detachment, where you pick your own slots and you have a Formation where you have to take 1900 points of models (before upgrades).
The Formation also gives you benefits for the Psychic phase.
The Detachment has less mandatory troops and less optional FA/HS but allows for more Elites.
Kangodo wrote: @Wuestenfux: No, the wargear is not set for them.
@WrentheFaceless: You have a Detachment, where you pick your own slots and you have a Formation where you have to take 1900 points of models (before upgrades).
The Formation also gives you benefits for the Psychic phase.
The Detachment has less mandatory troops and less optional FA/HS but allows for more Elites.
Yea thats the one I was talking about, the Detachment that doesnt have specific units you have to take.
Ok whoops so it is the detachment I am talking about. Minimum is 1 hq and one troop. Can take two heavies and up to 4 elites. Forgot the limits on the other stuff. Anyway if using GK as an an additional force to another army, the detachment lets you take only one troop (the troop tax) to bring 2 DKs
Super Newb wrote: Ok whoops so it is the detachment I am talking about. Minimum is 1 hq and one troop. Can take two heavies and up to 4 elites. Forgot the limits on the other stuff. Anyway if using GK as an an additional force to another army, the detachment lets you take only one troop (the troop tax) to bring 2 DKs
Truth, I haven't used Dreadknights since they got sanctuary...people use that often?
ductvader wrote: Truth, I haven't used Dreadknights since they got sanctuary...people use that often?
Banishment and Hammerhand were largely useless (or extremely situational) for DKs in the previous codex. I used Force once or twice (only against T6+, multi-wound models), but for the most part my DKs just gave an extra Warp Charge.
Buffing the invulnerable to a 4++ is pretty big. Going from a 33% chance to a 50% chance to save against any wound, even if it does carry the risk of perils/failure, will definitely be in my playbook.
Apparent Assassin leak from bolter and chainsword:
Culexus Assassin:
Spoiler
wargear
Animus Speculum (18", s5 ap1 assault x. X = combined mastery level within 12" + you can add dice from your own pool that you generate from models outside of 12" or the d6 free ones)
Etherium (ALL shots and combat attacks are made at BS and WS 1 against a culexus) -
Psyk-out grenades (as codex GK)
Special Rules
Fear
Fearless
independant Operative (can not join a unit or be joined under any circumstance)
Infiltrate
Life Drain (6 to wound cause instant death)
LIghtning Reflexes (4+ invun)
Move through Cover
No Escape (-2 to look out sir)
Preferred Enemy (Psykers)
psychic abomination (Psykers suffer -3 ld, do not generate any warp charge dice and only channel on a 6+ not a 4+ when 'casting' with 12" of the Culexus)
Eversor Assassin:
Spoiler
Wargear
Melta Bombs
power Sword
Executioner Pistol- bolt pistol or needle round (4+ poison)
Neuro-gauntlet- melee, fleshbane, shred
Frenzon - 3d6 charge range, 3 bonus attacks on the charge
Sentinel Array - fires overwatch at full BS
Special Rules
bio-meltdown-when assassin dies, S5 blast up to d6 inches.
Fast shot-executioner pistols fires 4 times at same target, mixture of rounds though.
Fearless
Feel no pain-5+
Furious Charge
Independant operative
infiltrate
Lightning Reflexes
Move through Cover
No Escape
Callidus Assassin:
Spoiler
Wargear
Neural Shredder- template, wounds on 4+ ap2
Phase sword - to wound rolls of 6 cause phase wound, no invuln vs phase wounds
Poison blades-3+poison + rending
Special Rules
Fearless
Fleet
Hit and Run
Independant Operative
infiltrate
Lightning Reflexes
move through Cover
no Escape
Polymorphine - marbo, enemy only fire snap shots on arrival turn at assassin
Precision Strikes
reign of Confusion - reroll seize initiative, opponent suffers -3 on first reserve roll
Vindicare assassin:
Spoiler
Wargear:
Blind grenades
CCW Exitus rifle _ shield breaker round - no invuln save allowed
_ turbo penetrator - class as strength 10 vs vehicles, D3 wounds vs non-vehicles _ Hellfire rounds - wound on 2+
Exitus Pistol as above but pistol
Spy Mask - ignores cover
Special Rules:
Deadshot - Precision shots 6+
Fearless
Independant Operative
Infiltrate
Lightning Reflexes
Move through Cover
No escape - Enemy characters suffer -2 to look out sir
Stealth
Assassins sound nice. Hope they cost less than before too. Points cost in game lol as we all know in real life the cost for gk/inq/assassins went through the roof lol.
Culexus could be very annoying to deal with with that anti-psykers power
If those are correct, that means the Vindicare lost his ability to auto target whoever he wanted. That just became a near useless model for me. At least he might still be good against vehicles, which goes against the entire idea of a sniper.
Tannhauser42 wrote: If those are correct, that means the Vindicare lost his ability to auto target whoever he wanted. That just became a near useless model for me. At least he might still be good against vehicles, which goes against the entire idea of a sniper.
So he used to have precision shots at will and not just a 6+?
Never used him
Though Vindicare now looks like an option for long range anti tank for GKs.
Yep still gonna use the vindicare, though the other assassins have become quite enticing too. Maybe I'll have the vindicare babysit my comms relay first turn until everything starts deep striking in.
Tannhauser42 wrote: If those are correct, that means the Vindicare lost his ability to auto target whoever he wanted. That just became a near useless model for me. At least he might still be good against vehicles, which goes against the entire idea of a sniper.
Ignoring LoS completely was broken. -2 to LoS is still stupidly good while giving your opponent a slim chance to survive (must pass on a 6 for characters 4+ for IC).
Tannhauser42 wrote: If those are correct, that means the Vindicare lost his ability to auto target whoever he wanted. That just became a near useless model for me. At least he might still be good against vehicles, which goes against the entire idea of a sniper.
That was broken. -2 to LoS is still stupidly good while giving your opponent a slim chance to survive (must pass on a 6 for characters 4+ for IC).
Did you completely miss that he now needs to roll a 6 to hit what he wants to hit? He is now completely useless as a sniper.
Tannhauser42 wrote: If those are correct, that means the Vindicare lost his ability to auto target whoever he wanted. That just became a near useless model for me. At least he might still be good against vehicles, which goes against the entire idea of a sniper.
That was broken. -2 to LoS is still stupidly good while giving your opponent a slim chance to survive (must pass on a 6 for characters 4+ for IC).
Did you completely miss that he now needs to roll a 6 to hit what he wants to hit? He is now completely useless as a sniper.
Tannhauser42 wrote: If those are correct, that means the Vindicare lost his ability to auto target whoever he wanted. That just became a near useless model for me. At least he might still be good against vehicles, which goes against the entire idea of a sniper.
That was broken. -2 to LoS is still stupidly good while giving your opponent a slim chance to survive (must pass on a 6 for characters 4+ for IC).
Did you completely miss that he now needs to roll a 6 to hit what he wants to hit? He is now completely useless as a sniper.
Yeah being able to ignore ++, inflict D3 AP2 wounds, and being S10 against vehicles is completely useless...
Tannhauser42 wrote: If those are correct, that means the Vindicare lost his ability to auto target whoever he wanted. That just became a near useless model for me. At least he might still be good against vehicles, which goes against the entire idea of a sniper.
That was broken. -2 to LoS is still stupidly good while giving your opponent a slim chance to survive (must pass on a 6 for characters 4+ for IC).
Did you completely miss that he now needs to roll a 6 to hit what he wants to hit? He is now completely useless as a sniper.
Yeah being able to ignore ++, inflict D3 AP2 wounds, and being S10 against vehicles is completely useless...
Ugh. Useless as a sniper he said. The vindicare is supposed to be better than all the other snipers. He is but only at taking out vehicles. Sniping out a character from a unit will be very rare indeed.
Tannhauser42 wrote: If those are correct, that means the Vindicare lost his ability to auto target whoever he wanted. That just became a near useless model for me. At least he might still be good against vehicles, which goes against the entire idea of a sniper.
That was broken. -2 to LoS is still stupidly good while giving your opponent a slim chance to survive (must pass on a 6 for characters 4+ for IC).
Did you completely miss that he now needs to roll a 6 to hit what he wants to hit? He is now completely useless as a sniper.
Yeah being able to ignore ++, inflict D3 AP2 wounds, and being S10 against vehicles is completely useless...
Ugh. Useless as a sniper he said. The vindicare is supposed to be better than all the other snipers. He is but only at taking out vehicles. Sniping out a character from a unit will be very rare indeed.
Well its clear GW doesnt know a damn thing about snipers considering they removed pinning n stuff.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Future snipers snipe tanks, individual mans are no challenge anymore.
Lol if they were no challenge they could do it easily. The only thing the vindicate will do easily is pop light AV.
Well considering STR 10 is the highest you can get, I'd say he'd be good at all AV
Yeah definitely. But depending how you define 'easily' my sentence can be true. Can the vindicare easily destroy a land raider? I'd say no he needs to roll a 5 or a 6 to pen.
Can someone explain what "acquire Warp Charges on a 3+" means? I've seem that mentioned in the GK formation, but have no idea what it means or how it effects to game.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Can someone explain what "acquire Warp Charges on a 3+" means? I've seem that mentioned in the GK formation, but have no idea what it means or how it effects to game.
SJ
I believe it was supposed to be HARNESS not acquire
A single strength 10 shot is not as good as you would think. Its good, maybe even a bit better than that, but its not great.
Against a rhino your still averaging a single hull point. Agaisnt a land raider your averaging less than half a hull point.
What makes anti tank good is not just the strength and Ap. What makes anti tank good is high strength (or special rules) and volume of fire. Taking 3 turns to pop a rhino (or a wave serpent) is good, but not excellent.
ninjafiredragon wrote: A single strength 10 shot is not as good as you would think. Its good, maybe even a bit better than that, but its not great.
Against a rhino your still averaging a single hull point. Agaisnt a land raider your averaging less than half a hull point.
What makes anti tank good is not just the strength and Ap. What makes anti tank good is high strength (or special rules) and volume of fire. Taking 3 turns to pop a rhino (or a wave serpent) is good, but not excellent.
Ehhh, having a 1/3 chance of straight blowing it up, or a good shot at immobilize as well is pretty good as well. However since it is only one it is hard as hell to not just go with the culexus. It basically serves as psychic defense for an army that doesnt invest in psykers.
I'm trying to help my Brother in Law make his GK list and I think the book is a bunch of auto-takes and a ton of always-avoid.
Brother Captains have a place. It's not a great place, but one nonetheless. If you want a fairly cheap combat monster then grab one, give him the relic armor and halberd and he might be able to do something.
The shining star of the HQ choice is the ML3 Librarian, and it's not close. I think you always take two at almost any level, giving one the book and rolling on sanctic twice and telepathy twice. Normally you'd never split focus like this, but the primaris is so terrible in Sanctic that you don't care, and you'll rarely (if ever) need hammerhand on the libby. Ideally you want flame and gate, maybe vortex for some fun. Basically the only one you don't want to roll is hammerhand, then hope the dice gods are in your favor and you get that 33% Invis.
If somehow the gods are really in your favor and you get Invis first roll, I'd go to Divination to grab prescience.
Second ML3 I'm going pure telepathy.
Purifiers are the best single unit in the book outside of NDKs. Getting flame and ML2 off the bat allows for some great board control keeping stuff out of your nova range, and there are some serious shenanigans you can pull off by combat squadding for extra charges.
Terminators are fan-freaking-tastic. To me they went from "I'll take some because I don't have enough for pallies" to "These are vastly better." Only for points reasons.
The change to apothecaries is the only reason you'd ever take paladins now. Personally, I'd treat them like TH/SS termies, meaning load those suckers in a five-man unit, all with hammers, psycannons and an apothecary, attach a librarian and use them like an elite unit. I don't think I'd ever take more than 5, and certainly not with halberds or swords. They need to hit hard and kill a lot to make up the points, don't gimp them.
I would never take a strike squad. I can't think of a single situation where they're worth taking over purifiers for PAGK, and your troops slot should be filled with termies.
Purgation squad... lol, never.
Two NDK's, always. Playtesting will determine the loadout, but I suspect dual heavy psycannons and a sword will be the way to go.
Hard to see where the stormraven fits right now. There's no dreadnought you'd want to drop and nothing good enough to risk hovering it to let them out.
I could see Draigo being a monster or an utter waste. If your opponent isn't mobile he could be invaluable, because he will eat almost anything alive. The risk is him getting kited around and being too slow to assault something.
ninjafiredragon wrote: A single strength 10 shot is not as good as you would think. Its good, maybe even a bit better than that, but its not great.
Against a rhino your still averaging a single hull point. Agaisnt a land raider your averaging less than half a hull point.
What makes anti tank good is not just the strength and Ap. What makes anti tank good is high strength (or special rules) and volume of fire. Taking 3 turns to pop a rhino (or a wave serpent) is good, but not excellent.
Ehhh, having a 1/3 chance of straight blowing it up, or a good shot at immobilize as well is pretty good as well. However since it is only one it is hard as hell to not just go with the culexus. It basically serves as psychic defense for an army that doesnt invest in psykers.
Actually, 1/6 chance to blow up most vehicles, as the rifle is only AP2.
HOWEVER, the rumor posted in this thread regarding the Vindicare only getting Precision Shots on a 6+ is incorrect. Every hit (barring snap shots) is a Precision Shot. Mitigated by the fact that LOS can still be taken (albeit at a penalty) and that he will only wound on a 4+ (unless using Hellfire rounds). ICs will remain an unlikely target for him (need an average of 4 shots just to get one through the wounding and LOS rolls, unless using Hellfire), but sergeants and special/weapons remain prime targets.
It's also worth noting they doubled the range of the rifle to 72'.
ninjafiredragon wrote: A single strength 10 shot is not as good as you would think. Its good, maybe even a bit better than that, but its not great.
Against a rhino your still averaging a single hull point. Agaisnt a land raider your averaging less than half a hull point.
What makes anti tank good is not just the strength and Ap. What makes anti tank good is high strength (or special rules) and volume of fire. Taking 3 turns to pop a rhino (or a wave serpent) is good, but not excellent.
Ehhh, having a 1/3 chance of straight blowing it up, or a good shot at immobilize as well is pretty good as well. However since it is only one it is hard as hell to not just go with the culexus. It basically serves as psychic defense for an army that doesnt invest in psykers.
Actually, 1/6 chance to blow up most vehicles
Actually that's also wrong because you have to pen first. For a land raider it is a 1/3 * 1/3 chance to wreck it or explode it. So a 1/9 chance after hitting. The vindicare hits often but not always. So the odds are actually a little worse than 1/9 to wreck or explode. To explode it outright it is a 1/18 chance for each hit.
psychic abomination (Psykers suffer -3 ld, do not generate any warp charge dice and only channel on a 6+ not a 4+ when 'casting' with 12" of the Culexus)
Fear not the Shadow in The Warp my brothers, for we can do it better!
...Seriously that would make 100% sense as a SiTW rule, would have been really that overpowered to make it look like that?
I know a lot of people are complaining about the new book, and I myself am ticked at the loss of Mordrak. That being said, I think this is going to be a fun book to play with. Flood the board with Force weapon/Psycannon wielding Terminators that can DS turn 1!
HQ choices that we can afford to take, what madness is that? A new Brotherhood Champ kitted out for murder includes the Cuirass of Sacrifice, the Soul Glaive, and a master-crafted Psycannon, and he's just over 200 bones!
Draigo got cheaper, meaner, was literally HANDED the ONE power he needed every game, AND doesn't take up an HQ slot. How is this bad?
Librarians. Wow. Dirt cheap ML3 awesomesauce.
Dreadknights. Kitted out with the HI and the HP, sword, and teleporter costs a little more than the uber-Brother Captain above. AND the Heavy Psycannon just got fantastic overnight for the same points.
Terminators. Now cost about the same as everyone else's terminators, except we have awesome psychic powers, force weapons, and awesome psychic defense. I'm pretty sure I will be flooding the board with my GK Termies.
Just my quick two cents on some of the changes that I'm excited about. Does it suck losing inquisition, assassins, and some characters? Yes, but now it won't automatically be an uphill battle every time I get my GK out.
Draigo got cheaper, meaner, was literally HANDED the ONE power he needed every game, AND doesn't take up an HQ slot. How is this bad?
Well the last part is bad. Now you need an HQ and Draigo in your GK detachment. Before you could just take Draigo as your HQ. Pretty obvious that that specific bit is bad so I am puzzled why you grouped that together with all of his buffs.
Draigo got cheaper, meaner, was literally HANDED the ONE power he needed every game, AND doesn't take up an HQ slot. How is this bad?
Well the last part is bad. Now you need an HQ and Draigo in your GK detachment. Before you could just take Draigo as your HQ. Pretty obvious that that specific bit is bad so I am puzzled why you grouped that together with all of his buffs.
So the down side is you have to take a Mastery Level-3 Librarian?
Cullexus is very useful verses GK but certainly not ridiculous, will require a little more planning to out maneuver him so you can still cast your powers and Psliencers are pretty strong verses him as are incinerators, soul blaze is nasty for a single T4 model.
On another note, played with the Curass of sacrifice on a libby yesterday, very helpful. FNP to stop perils wounds and IWND it get them back if you lose them, gave me more freedom to put more dice into powers knowing that perils wasn't the be-all, end-all.
WisdomLS wrote: Cullexus is very useful verses GK but certainly not ridiculous, will require a little more planning to out maneuver him so you can still cast your powers and Psliencers are pretty strong verses him as are incinerators, soul blaze is nasty for a single T4 model.
I think in GK's arsenal, storm bolters are the way to take care of a Cullexus
Soul Blaze has to hit and wound. Pslencers have to hit and wound. Storm Bolters have to do the same, but there are a lot more of them, and they only need to do it twice to kill him off.
If you get close enough, Incinerators might but a wound on him, but then you could also just charge him and kill him that way.
This codex actually has me excited to get my Grey Knights on the table again. How are people running the Termies nowadays? In a LR? Storm Raven? Just Deep Striking them into the middle of it like men?
Anyone else notice that Rhinos and Razorbacks are fast attack choices, as well as being options for dedicated transports?
I'm really liking being able to get a 35 point non-dedicated transport
HawaiiMatt wrote: Anyone else notice that Rhinos and Razorbacks are fast attack choices, as well as being options for dedicated transports?
I'm really liking being able to get a 35 point non-dedicated transport
Yes, a lot of us noticed that change with the Space Wolves Codex. It looks like all Dedicated Transports are now going to be FA Choices now.
This could be an issue when Blood Angels come out.
HawaiiMatt wrote: Anyone else notice that Rhinos and Razorbacks are fast attack choices, as well as being options for dedicated transports?
I'm really liking being able to get a 35 point non-dedicated transport
Yes, a lot of us noticed that change with the Space Wolves Codex. It looks like all Dedicated Transports are now going to be FA Choices now.
This could be an issue when Blood Angels come out.
The SW allies could bring with them a Drop Pod in the FA slot which in turn could be used by your Purifiers or Purgation squad (with incinerators) as a transport. Ouch.
Draigo got cheaper, meaner, was literally HANDED the ONE power he needed every game, AND doesn't take up an HQ slot. How is this bad?
Well the last part is bad. Now you need an HQ and Draigo in your GK detachment. Before you could just take Draigo as your HQ. Pretty obvious that that specific bit is bad so I am puzzled why you grouped that together with all of his buffs.
So the down side is you have to take a Mastery Level-3 Librarian?
Yes. The completely obvious downside is one cannot just spend points on the expensive Draigo, one has to spend even more points on the required HQ. that's a downside for every HQ that has been turned into a Lord of War. That's utterly obvious so I don't appreciate your snarky remark.
I understand your point, but to drill down to the bedrock of Anpu42's point, is there really any situation where you WOULDN'T take a Libby? They seem as close to auto-include as anything I've seen from the new codex thus far
I understand your point, but to drill down to the bedrock of Anpu42's point, is there really any situation where you WOULDN'T take a Libby? They seem as close to auto-include as anything I've seen from the new codex thus far
In a list where you are already paying a lot for Draigo and you are tight for points. Where you'd rather have a few more bodies (or a stock Dreadknight) than one librarian. Of course this is all moot because Draigo is a Lord of War now so you have to take an HQ as well...
I understand your point, but to drill down to the bedrock of Anpu42's point, is there really any situation where you WOULDN'T take a Libby? They seem as close to auto-include as anything I've seen from the new codex thus far
In a list where you are already paying a lot for Draigo and you are tight for points. Where you'd rather have a few more bodies (or a stock Dreadknight) than one librarian. Of course this is all moot because Draigo is a Lord of War now so you have to take an HQ as well...
Even with Draigo's lower point cost, he is still a fair amount of points for a close combat model. If your list doesn't have room for an HQ along with Draigo, the game is probably too small to warrant Draigo's presence. Take a Brother Captain or Brotherhood Champion if you need the CC ability, and don't forget the Relics they can take that Draigo doesn't have access to.
you are taking draigo for his CC ability/tanking ability and Gate.
You are taking stern for guaranteed sanctuary.
Both offer some small stuff outside of that but that is what you are planning around when you take them.
I do think paladins have a place now however, especially with the nemesis banner and apothecary.
Shoot, first thing I thought of was some paladins and thunderwolves/cyber wolves. Use the cyber wolves to increase the range so the paladins slow movement is not a problem and give all those characters FNP while also buffing them...Same with any character really. Imagine Lysander and draigo with a 2+ invul and FNP in a unit of paladins. Combine this with guaranteed gate and you got a durable as hell CC unit that can make it there.
Is Draigo's deathstar still good? Did it get a nerf or buff in the new codex? How many guys in the squad can you have now? Why is he a lord of war now?
Stern guarantees Sanctuary (2++ invuls). Draigo gives you gate so you can hide the first turn anywhere on the table and out of LoS if you don't get first turn so you can gate to where you need to be, spread out, and make people sad. Unit size + speed equals massive turn 2 assault
Deployment = hide & huddle
T1: Cast Sanctuary, Cast Gate, Gate to best location for multiple charges, run to spread out
T2: Weather shooting (either bottom of 1 or top of 2). Move everything but the IC's 12" while maintaining coherency, Cast Sanctuary, Charge everything!
Remember that because of gate you're not slowing down your normal move by being force to move turn 1 and remain in coherency with a walking model. You're gating. And turn 2 you're close enough that spreading out a foot in each direction with 1 model back to maintain coherency isn't slowing you down.
Movement is on a per model basis, with the number of cyber wolves in the unit you can easily snake back to the slower characters while still moving full speed.
TheCadreofFi'rios wrote: Is Draigo's deathstar still good? Did it get a nerf or buff in the new codex? How many guys in the squad can you have now? Why is he a lord of war now?
The Deathstar is still good. In fact it received a buff with cheaper Apothecary and Draigo always having Gate power. Plus a ML3 Librarian is cheaper for rolling more buff spells.
The only problems are that Draigo doesn't make Paladins troops choices and Draigo is a Lord of War so if you're playing a tournament that doesn't allow Lords of War then no Draigo. I think most TOs are starting to convert to using Lords of War now though with the new codexes throwing characters like Draigo into that category.
EDIT: Well I guess I should read other people's responses. Looks like all the bases are covered.
I had a game yesterday against Tau at 1850, ran a Draigowing with stern, only could fit 3 psycannons in and all the pallies had swords. 3 dreadknights and 2 naked strikes were the rest of the list.
He ran a couple fire warrior squads, farsight with a buffmander+2 suits, a devilfish, 3 pathfinder squads along with 4 broadsides and 3 riptides (2 ion 1 burst cannon). Hammer and anvil, scouring.
Turn 1 I gated into his deployment zone, the DKs shunted. I was able to work my way across his deployment zone with the DKs and box him in over the rest of the game. The Draigo unit was almost invincible, I was able to get Sanctuary off every time, and tanking on a 2++ was solid. At 2K I would upgrade the paladins weapons and run an allied inquisitor for prescience. Sanctuary on the DKs was also a huge boost.
Lurker wrote: I'm not sure if it is a straight buff. I think the loss of Initiative 6 hurts a bit...
I6 was just overkill and OP as hell. Maybe if it was only on the charge like a power lance. But I much prefer +1s, especially for only 2 pts and with hammerhand lets you threaten most MCs and pretty much any vehicle but land raiders and AV13 walkers.
So just got my first game against the nids... it was a decent test. We ran Mission 2 from the BAO Missions.
I ran 2 Librarians, 2 (5)Terminator squads with psycannon, 1 (5) Interceptor Squad with incinerator, 2 StormRavens, and 3 Dreadknights... 2 with flamer and psycannon and on with flamer and psilencer
Nids
2 Hive Tyrants, 2 Crones, 2 units ripper swarms, Carnifex, Malenthrope, dimoncari (sp) and Living artillery
The psylincer took out 2 MC through Force, which was awesome... I was able to deny almost every power he tried to cast. The only models left on the board was one ripper swarm, biovores, 2 hive tyrants, and 1 crone by end of the game... GK had 1 Dreadknight, 1 librarian, 1 (4) termie squad, and interceptors...
It was a good test. I feel pretty confident in bringing a Gatling psylincer! It has a good opportunity of destroying multi wound targets!
Anyone else having good experience with different units?
azactaylor wrote: So just got my first game against the nids... it was a decent test. We ran Mission 2 from the BAO Missions.
I ran 2 Librarians, 2 (5)Terminator squads with psycannon, 1 (5) Interceptor Squad with incinerator, 2 StormRavens, and 3 Dreadknights... 2 with flamer and psycannon and on with flamer and psilencer
Nids
2 Hive Tyrants, 2 Crones, 2 units ripper swarms, Carnifex, Malenthrope, dimoncari (sp) and Living artillery
The psylincer took out 2 MC through Force, which was awesome... I was able to deny almost every power he tried to cast. The only models left on the board was one ripper swarm, biovores, 2 hive tyrants, and 1 crone by end of the game... GK had 1 Dreadknight, 1 librarian, 1 (4) termie squad, and interceptors...
It was a good test. I feel pretty confident in bringing a Gatling psylincer! It has a good opportunity of destroying multi wound targets!
Anyone else having good experience with different units?
So that Gatling Psilencer was working out for you? I was thinking of bringing my two NDK's each with sword, psycannon, then one with the psilencer and one with the incinerator.
I really like the new codex. After having a chance to read it properly, I'm liking some of the cheaper units, especially a level 3 Librarian with the potential of having 5 (6 including the primaris) of the Sanctic daemonolgy powers.
azactaylor wrote: So just got my first game against the nids... it was a decent test. We ran Mission 2 from the BAO Missions.
I ran 2 Librarians, 2 (5)Terminator squads with psycannon, 1 (5) Interceptor Squad with incinerator, 2 StormRavens, and 3 Dreadknights... 2 with flamer and psycannon and on with flamer and psilencer
Nids
2 Hive Tyrants, 2 Crones, 2 units ripper swarms, Carnifex, Malenthrope, dimoncari (sp) and Living artillery
The psylincer took out 2 MC through Force, which was awesome... I was able to deny almost every power he tried to cast. The only models left on the board was one ripper swarm, biovores, 2 hive tyrants, and 1 crone by end of the game... GK had 1 Dreadknight, 1 librarian, 1 (4) termie squad, and interceptors...
It was a good test. I feel pretty confident in bringing a Gatling psylincer! It has a good opportunity of destroying multi wound targets!
Anyone else having good experience with different units?
So that Gatling Psilencer was working out for you? I was thinking of bringing my two NDK's each with sword, psycannon, then one with the psilencer and one with the incinerator.
I still think too much luck is required to kill MCs with a psilencer. A T6, 3+ save MC needs 27 psilencer shots (18 hits, 3 wounds, one failed save) to score one unsaved wound. And, of course, the psilencer can't even hurt T8+ targets.
azactaylor wrote: So just got my first game against the nids... it was a decent test. We ran Mission 2 from the BAO Missions.
I ran 2 Librarians, 2 (5)Terminator squads with psycannon, 1 (5) Interceptor Squad with incinerator, 2 StormRavens, and 3 Dreadknights... 2 with flamer and psycannon and on with flamer and psilencer
Nids
2 Hive Tyrants, 2 Crones, 2 units ripper swarms, Carnifex, Malenthrope, dimoncari (sp) and Living artillery
The psylincer took out 2 MC through Force, which was awesome... I was able to deny almost every power he tried to cast. The only models left on the board was one ripper swarm, biovores, 2 hive tyrants, and 1 crone by end of the game... GK had 1 Dreadknight, 1 librarian, 1 (4) termie squad, and interceptors...
It was a good test. I feel pretty confident in bringing a Gatling psylincer! It has a good opportunity of destroying multi wound targets!
Anyone else having good experience with different units?
So that Gatling Psilencer was working out for you? I was thinking of bringing my two NDK's each with sword, psycannon, then one with the psilencer and one with the incinerator.
I still think too much luck is required to kill MCs with a psilencer. A T6, 3+ save MC needs 27 psilencer shots (18 hits, 3 wounds, one failed save) to score one unsaved wound. And, of course, the psilencer can't even hurt T8+ targets.
Math is nice and all, but averages rarely happen in real life. With a Dice rolling game
azactaylor wrote: So just got my first game against the nids... it was a decent test. We ran Mission 2 from the BAO Missions.
I ran 2 Librarians, 2 (5)Terminator squads with psycannon, 1 (5) Interceptor Squad with incinerator, 2 StormRavens, and 3 Dreadknights... 2 with flamer and psycannon and on with flamer and psilencer
Nids
2 Hive Tyrants, 2 Crones, 2 units ripper swarms, Carnifex, Malenthrope, dimoncari (sp) and Living artillery
The psylincer took out 2 MC through Force, which was awesome... I was able to deny almost every power he tried to cast. The only models left on the board was one ripper swarm, biovores, 2 hive tyrants, and 1 crone by end of the game... GK had 1 Dreadknight, 1 librarian, 1 (4) termie squad, and interceptors...
It was a good test. I feel pretty confident in bringing a Gatling psylincer! It has a good opportunity of destroying multi wound targets!
Anyone else having good experience with different units?
Averages happen to me all the time. I can expect exactly the dice outcome correctly half the time, which is pretty good.
So that Gatling Psilencer was working out for you? I was thinking of bringing my two NDK's each with sword, psycannon, then one with the psilencer and one with the incinerator.
I still think too much luck is required to kill MCs with a psilencer. A T6, 3+ save MC needs 27 psilencer shots (18 hits, 3 wounds, one failed save) to score one unsaved wound. And, of course, the psilencer can't even hurt T8+ targets.
Math is nice and all, but averages rarely happen in real life. With a Dice rolling game
azactaylor wrote: So just got my first game against the nids... it was a decent test. We ran Mission 2 from the BAO Missions.
I ran 2 Librarians, 2 (5)Terminator squads with psycannon, 1 (5) Interceptor Squad with incinerator, 2 StormRavens, and 3 Dreadknights... 2 with flamer and psycannon and on with flamer and psilencer
Nids
2 Hive Tyrants, 2 Crones, 2 units ripper swarms, Carnifex, Malenthrope, dimoncari (sp) and Living artillery
The psylincer took out 2 MC through Force, which was awesome... I was able to deny almost every power he tried to cast. The only models left on the board was one ripper swarm, biovores, 2 hive tyrants, and 1 crone by end of the game... GK had 1 Dreadknight, 1 librarian, 1 (4) termie squad, and interceptors...
It was a good test. I feel pretty confident in bringing a Gatling psylincer! It has a good opportunity of destroying multi wound targets!
Anyone else having good experience with different units?
So that Gatling Psilencer was working out for you? I was thinking of bringing my two NDK's each with sword, psycannon, then one with the psilencer and one with the incinerator.
I still think too much luck is required to kill MCs with a psilencer. A T6, 3+ save MC needs 27 psilencer shots (18 hits, 3 wounds, one failed save) to score one unsaved wound. And, of course, the psilencer can't even hurt T8+ targets.
Math is nice and all, but averages rarely happen in real life. With a Dice rolling game
As I said, "too much luck is required." Get a bit of even marginally bad luck and you won't score a single wound all game with a psilencer against a T6 MC. I would still rather go with the more consistently reliable psycannon. At least it can also kill vehicles and higher toughness targets.
If the incinerator and psycannon weren't so good, or if you knew for certain you would be facing a lot of ogryns / paladins / etc then maybe, but for anything approaching a competitive build you'd rather have the other two.
obsidiankatana wrote: Averages by definition happen in real life. On average. Over large pools of games. That's how they're determined. Math isn't subjective.
Over large pools of games is key, they dont happen over the course of one or two games, which is what people usually play.
Not that I disagree that the incinerator or psycannon arent better choices
I think the Incinerator + Psycannon combo is almost certainly mathematically superior to anything involving the Psilencer, against the majority of enemy armies, particularly when you consider the relatively high points cost of the Psilencer.
That said, the psychological impact of a ranged, high-output Force weapon, against any armies with MCs or multi-wound infantry, is not to be underestimated.
The math does favor the Heavy Incinerator and Heavy Psycannon.
However, I just played my first two games with the new Grey Knights. The first game against Necrons went poorly, and I was basically tabled by turn 4. The second game, which I faced an experienced Chaos Daemons player, I managed to tie him in a game involving the Maelstrom objectives.
I got "First Blood" with the Gatling Psilencer on one of his Slanneesh daemon characters (T6). I activated force, he failed to deny, I got about 8 hits, 3 wounds, and he failed one save.
obsidiankatana wrote: Averages by definition happen in real life. On average. Over large pools of games. That's how they're determined. Math isn't subjective.
Well, tactial planning in a game should be based on averages.
Its the best measure to see if planning fails or not.
Ian Sturrock wrote: I think the Incinerator + Psycannon combo is almost certainly mathematically superior to anything involving the Psilencer, against the majority of enemy armies, particularly when you consider the relatively high points cost of the Psilencer.
That said, the psychological impact of a ranged, high-output Force weapon, against any armies with MCs or multi-wound infantry, is not to be underestimated.
Messed around a bit with a draigo star build. Ballpark of 950 points (exact number escapes me) nets Draigo, Stern, ML3 librarian, 5 paladins with an Apothecary, 2 Psycannons, 1 hammer, 4x falchions. Ideal situation sees Draigo tanking while invisible with 2++ and FNP.
I feel like instead of the lvl 3 librarian you would be better off trying to get some more 3++ invuls in there. Also Tiggy would be better for getting invis(at around the same points)
I would not spend the points on the falcions, get the banner instead. I would go 1x hammer, 2x psycannon, 1x banner, and one apoth. I forget does the warding staff do anything other than be a power maul?
Warding staff provides adamantium will. Only reason I didn't include tigurius was to remain wholly within the GK book. And I'm unfamiliar with what the banner does. Also, within the GK book, I'm not sure where else to get 3++ from. Though an invisible 4++ and FNP unit is already incredibly hard to crack.
Reading this thread has me really excited to build up my GK's. Rites of Teleportation and Shunt seem like they will make for a really nasty alpha-strike.
obsidiankatana wrote: Warding staff provides adamantium will. Only reason I didn't include tigurius was to remain wholly within the GK book. And I'm unfamiliar with what the banner does. Also, within the GK book, I'm not sure where else to get 3++ from. Though an invisible 4++ and FNP unit is already incredibly hard to crack.
Banner gives +1 attack to the unit and the other banner gives +1 attack and a fearless bubble.
Indirectly yes, as you cannot cast the same power twice. However, as Force and Sanctuary are different powers, you can cast both as long as you have enough warp charges left in your pool.
Redemption wrote: Indirectly yes, as you cannot cast the same power twice. However, as Force and Sanctuary are different powers, you can cast both as long as you have enough warp charges left in your pool.
Indeed, doesnt matter if the Dreadknight is level 1, as long as you have dice, you can cast both of his powers
Assuming you have the points, what would you guys say is the optimal loadout for 5 paladins and 10 paladins? I'm thinking a mix of flachions and hammers. Probably not worth putting in the banner at just just 5.
Honestly I feel paladins are a go big or go home unit. They have so many things that are unit based multipliers that only really become efficient at larger sizes.
Personally, go with 10, take Stern, take either Banner, a Stave, 2 Hammers, a Meltabomb, Falchions on the Justicar, 4 Psycannons...and the rest get swords, halberds and falchions to your liking...and don't skip the apothecary.
Ideally you should keep the unit small, because the additional Paladins don't really contribute much. They're just there as a distraction/anvil unit. It needs some way to fight Knights as well, I suggest some hidden Iron Priests.
Draigo as Lord of War might be restricted in some tournaments, however.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Ideally you should keep the unit small, because the additional Paladins don't really contribute much. They're just there as a distraction/anvil unit. It needs some way to fight Knights as well, I suggest some hidden Iron Priests.
Draigo as Lord of War might be restricted in some tournaments, however.
Which is dumb because hes clearly not a giant death robot
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Ideally you should keep the unit small, because the additional Paladins don't really contribute much. They're just there as a distraction/anvil unit. It needs some way to fight Knights as well, I suggest some hidden Iron Priests.
Draigo as Lord of War might be restricted in some tournaments, however.
Which is dumb because hes clearly not a giant death robot
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: In his own way he's as killy as some giant death robots. In any case, LoW is clearly no longer restricted to Giant Death Robots any more.
which is why tournies need to step back and re-examine things a bit.
Grey Knights are the perfect example of why some of the "anti apoc restrictions" are gonna be silly the further into 7th we get.
clearly all the "big HQs" are being changed over to LOWs, Dragio, Logan, Ghaz, we can expect Dante to become a LOW when Blood Angels get their codex, and should GW start 7th editioning armies with 6th edition codexes big bads like Calgar and Abbadon will undoubtedly be LOWs as well.
Also restricting out any weapon that's strength D is likewise gonna be a bad move (and is likely a hold over from the old days of 6th when STR D was insanely powerful) Grey Knights would lose access to one of their sanatic disiplines.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: In his own way he's as killy as some giant death robots. In any case, LoW is clearly no longer restricted to Giant Death Robots any more.
Yes but when you mention LoW these days what to people think? Giant tanks, giant death robots and giant monsters.
Which is dumb for restrictions as not all LoW are created equal.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: In his own way he's as killy as some giant death robots. In any case, LoW is clearly no longer restricted to Giant Death Robots any more.
which is why tournies need to step back and re-examine things a bit.
Grey Knights are the perfect example of why some of the "anti apoc restrictions" are gonna be silly the further into 7th we get.
clearly all the "big HQs" are being changed over to LOWs, Dragio, Logan, Ghaz, we can expect Dante to become a LOW when Blood Angels get their codex, and should GW start 7th editioning armies with 6th edition codexes big bads like Calgar and Abbadon will undoubtedly be LOWs as well.
Also restricting out any weapon that's strength D is likewise gonna be a bad move (and is likely a hold over from the old days of 6th when STR D was insanely powerful) Grey Knights would lose access to one of their sanatic disiplines.
I agree, but Strength D could be toned down much easier just considering it to be Str10(or 12 or whatever). Which would nerf santic diciple but not just exclude it.
D was nerfed enough in its own right to be accepted in normal games. My personal issue lies with the combined weight of fire and durability on a lot of Lords of war. For example, a Hellhammer or Stormsword scare me a lot more than a Shadowsword.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: In his own way he's as killy as some giant death robots. In any case, LoW is clearly no longer restricted to Giant Death Robots any more.
which is why tournies need to step back and re-examine things a bit.
Grey Knights are the perfect example of why some of the "anti apoc restrictions" are gonna be silly the further into 7th we get.
clearly all the "big HQs" are being changed over to LOWs, Dragio, Logan, Ghaz, we can expect Dante to become a LOW when Blood Angels get their codex, and should GW start 7th editioning armies with 6th edition codexes big bads like Calgar and Abbadon will undoubtedly be LOWs as well.
Also restricting out any weapon that's strength D is likewise gonna be a bad move (and is likely a hold over from the old days of 6th when STR D was insanely powerful) Grey Knights would lose access to one of their sanatic disiplines.
Dutch GT is going to allow close to anything (even unbound), but does limit the LoW slot to maximum 400point models.
