as the topic states has the imperium done it before?

In the Inquisition Codex, Ordo Xenos Inquisitors can equip weapons from other races such as the Dark Eldar Hexrifle and Needle Pistol. So I would say yes. Though the Imperium at large would obviously consider this heresy.

LOTS of times, I mean the Imperium wins against the eldar on a regular basis (and loses to em just as regularly I'm sure) and thus is going to have plenty of examples of basis eldar tech.

However I suspect your real question is "do the IoM put captured xenos tech to use?"

to which the answer is "yes but the offical answer is no"

the imperium offically would never touch xenos tech, but inqusitors, rogue traders, some space marines and others with similer levels of power and freedom will use it. some of the grey knights technology for example is speculated to be of xenos orgin

Only the upper echelons of the Imperium. Radical Ordo Xenos, Rogue Traders, the GK maybe and the Deathwatch. Callidus Assassins wield C'tan Phase Swords made from Necrodermis.

Not commonly, just because the strength of the imperium is in logistics and using captured weapons doesn't play to that strength. Plus Eldar weapons are psychically fired, ork weapons are inferior, and necron weapons are either destroyed our they phase out with the warrior.

Yes. Plenty of times. Sometimes they make it their own, other times they simply file it away in some dark place.

 Silverthorne wrote:
Not commonly, just because the strength of the imperium is in logistics and using captured weapons doesn't play to that strength. Plus Eldar weapons are psychically fired, ork weapons are inferior, and necron weapons are either destroyed our they phase out with the warrior.

Actually Rogue Trader's often figure out how to jerry rig Eldar Weapons to fire normally, and necron weapons don't always phase out.

Members of the Inqusition do do it although other members of the Imperium may complain about it a little.

All the time.

The Ad Mech regularly dissects alien tech to understand it, and potentially harness it. But such activity is only done by the most high ranking individuals and with utmost care.

Inquisitors, particularly of the Ordo Xenos, also regularly use stolen Xeno-tech. Although its down to how the particular inquisitor feels about such things.

Yes, the Imperium has gotten their hands on xenos tech.

I remember reading a little excerpt from the Warscythe supplement or whatever the hell it is that Black Library has and it's from the point of view of a magos(?) trying to figure out how the hell a Warscythe works but it seems that everything they do to take it apart doesn't work as there is a force field of sorts around the weapon that gets stronger the more force is applied upon it.

I can think of a couple.

Callidus Assassin uses a Ctan phase sword that has been successfully replicated by the Admech.

Psilencers - said in codex to be most likely of alien origin

Scythian Venom Talons - blueprints stolen and replicated

Needle Pistols - I BELIEVE are from the DE

Empyrean Brain Minds - based on more Necron tech.

Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon - not replicated I THINK.

Thats all that I got from the top of my head, but that is just the GK stuff

One of the primary misisons of the Deathwatch is to capture Alien tech and give it to the Adeptus Mechanicus to exmaine and reverse engineer into something palatble for the Imperium to use.

Inquisitors and Rogue Traders often use Xenos tech if it suits their purpooses..................

Some Imperial forces - notably Astartes - use trophy weapons or simply have them on display as they do with alien skulls or other body parts.

There was a Black Library short in Let the Galaxy Burn I think where some Gangers get splinter rifles from the black market. Needless to say the Inquisition found them and gave them a stern talking to, and then death.

Guys, this is actually part of the theme of the Imperium's hypocrisy and corruption. Because "reverse-engineering technology" is evil in 40K.

Alcibiades wrote:
Guys, this is actually part of the theme of the Imperium's hypocrisy and corruption. Because "reverse-engineering technology" is evil in 40K.

reverse engineering something is actually often rather difficult. Just because you have 2-3 working examples does not mean you can create an assembly line to build thousands of them.

Alcibiades wrote:
Guys, this is actually part of the theme of the Imperium's hypocrisy and corruption. Because "reverse-engineering technology" is evil in 40K.

Not quite. Reverse-engineering is a crime if you aren't a Tech-Priest, or if you're the wrong kind of Tech-Priest trying to reverse-engineer the wrong device. However, as with any other organization, there are sects to the AdMech that vary on their outlook on the topic.

The Dreadknight is based on Tau tech, so yeah they do use Xeno tech (just look at those feet and tell me they aren't based on Tau suit's feet)

 Scorpionov wrote:
as the topic states has the imperium done it before?

That depends on what you mean by that.

Reading the description for the EMP grenade in Deathwatch, it is clear that:

1) it is rare, even in the Deathwatch, for alien technology to be issued... and that's in the Deathwatch. Claims it happens all the time, even in the upper echelons, are in conflict with fluff

2) Said technology isn't a reverse-engineered version of a Tau or Eldar or Dark Eldar haywire grenade- it's the actual Tau or Eldar or Dark Eldar grenade. Humans can figure out how to push the detonator or pull a trigger, but humanity lacks the technical know-how to actually reverse-engineer xenos weapons and mass-produce them.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Scorpionov wrote:
as the topic states has the imperium done it before?

That depends on what you mean by that.

Reading the description for the EMP grenade in Deathwatch, it is clear that:

1) it is rare, even in the Deathwatch, for alien technology to be issued... and that's in the Deathwatch. Claims it happens all the time, even in the upper echelons, are in conflict with fluff

2) Said technology isn't a reverse-engineered version of a Tau or Eldar or Dark Eldar haywire grenade- it's the actual Tau or Eldar or Dark Eldar grenade. Humans can figure out how to push the detonator or pull a trigger, but humanity lacks the technical know-how to actually reverse-engineer xenos weapons and mass-produce them.

That is completely false.

Photon thrusters are probably of xeno origin as well.

 Zuul wrote:
Photon thrusters are probably of xeno origin as well.

Why?

Especially since there are humans right now working on photon thrusters as a possible source of movement for space vehicles.

Grey Templar is right, it's technology that we may have stuff similar to today. Look up ion engines, it's quite interesting.


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 PhillyT wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Scorpionov wrote:
as the topic states has the imperium done it before?

That depends on what you mean by that.

Reading the description for the EMP grenade in Deathwatch, it is clear that:

1) it is rare, even in the Deathwatch, for alien technology to be issued... and that's in the Deathwatch. Claims it happens all the time, even in the upper echelons, are in conflict with fluff

2) Said technology isn't a reverse-engineered version of a Tau or Eldar or Dark Eldar haywire grenade- it's the actual Tau or Eldar or Dark Eldar grenade. Humans can figure out how to push the detonator or pull a trigger, but humanity lacks the technical know-how to actually reverse-engineer xenos weapons and mass-produce them.

That is completely false.

I'm wondering, if they reverse-engineered one, would they be able to produce more knowing that it is the admech we are talking about. It's probably tech heresy.

Honestly, I'd still probably go for that they have their own (it being a pretty well-known concept), but they are expensive and rare. I think one of the rouge trader spaltbooks had something about that, I have to check.

The AM will take several hundred years examining and dissecting the Xenos tech, converting it into a usable format, discussing the ramificaitons, examining the repercussions, dividing out the rights to it being produced, check there is not a STC/approved design for it already for it in the databanks etc etc. eventually a version of it may have field trials and then to the Skitarii or Imperial front line troops, emphasis on the eventually.

An inquisitor is able to take it off his or her trophy shelf and use it - as a one off. Same with Astartes.

Even Astar M units do this until they got told not to (and punished) - but veterans often have lots of stuff they shouldn't have.

Sororitas wouldn't normally use or keep any Xenos tech (that they knew where Xenos tech anyway) but an inquisitor might give them a specific approved artefact fro a given mission etc and that's all good and fine.

That is a nice way to frame it.

Deathwatch have things they really "shouldn't" because the Xenos inquisitors probably have the best understanding of the enemy tech in the Imperium. They know what the items are and that they aren't a "danger" but they aren't about to have them become accepted by the Ad Mech.

SGTPozy wrote:
The Dreadknight is based on Tau tech, so yeah they do use Xeno tech (just look at those feet and tell me they aren't based on Tau suit's feet)

by that logic Pozy whales are fish. If Convergant evolution happens in biology, it'll almost certinly happen in technology.

SGTPozy wrote:
The Dreadknight is based on Tau tech, so yeah they do use Xeno tech (just look at those feet and tell me they aren't based on Tau suit's feet)

How about based on bird or theropod feet? I don't think Tau, I think T-Rex. The Dreadknight has a backwards toe for stability as opposed to the Tau who are prone to falling over backwards.

 Deadshot wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
The Dreadknight is based on Tau tech, so yeah they do use Xeno tech (just look at those feet and tell me they aren't based on Tau suit's feet)

How about based on bird or theropod feet? I don't think Tau, I think T-Rex. The Dreadknight has a backwards toe for stability as opposed to the Tau who are prone to falling over backwards.

Since when have tau been prone to falling over? Imperfections in the model does not reflect the fluff.
Although I wil agree, the dreadknight is human tech, an incomplete STC template, but human never-the-less.

Even if the Imperium captured Xenos tech, using it or even studying it would be Heresy.

Except for Yarrick. The Inquisition does NOT mess around with that guy.

The Xenos inq. (whatever they are called again) does whatever it wants with alien tech however, there is nobody to stop them.

Exactly! Within the Ordo Xenos there is tension about the use of xeno tech, but the only people who can sanction or condemn the use are the same guys using it!

And that is the imperium in a nutshell.

 Happyjew wrote:
Even if the Imperium captured Xenos tech, using it or even studying it would be Heresy.

Except for Yarrick. The Inquisition does NOT mess around with that guy.

Well its def Heresy and not done, well except for :

All the various Astartes Chapters that use captured or trophy weapons
All the various Inquisitors who use the same plus those bought or received in trade etc
All the various Rogue Traders who use the same
All the various Guard veterans who use Xenos weaponry on a given campaign

Well, you can't really include rouge traders, they are free from all imperial laws (and rich enough to get away with it).

They are still subject to Imperial law when within Imperial space and will be inspected/debriefed etc as the Ordo Xenos sees fit.

Only the Inquisition is truly immune to the Imperial law and then only as long as their peers do not challenge them successfully.

Many Astartes Chapters act like they are immune to Imperial law as does the Adeptus Mechancius which tends to pay lip service.

Imperial Governors and nobles also tend to buy and use Xemos tech which is often overlooked as long as its not too obvious or until there is a purge.

Myaybe I shoud be more specific, they are still under imperial law, but are powerful enough to generally get way with it.

Kill the Xenos! But let's loot that tech after! lol.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Myaybe I shoud be more specific, they are still under imperial law, but are powerful enough to generally get way with it.

Unless the Ordo Xenos decide they aren't

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Myaybe I shoud be more specific, they are still under imperial law, but are powerful enough to generally get way with it.

Unless the Ordo Xenos decide they aren't

Now that would be an interesting fight.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Myaybe I shoud be more specific, they are still under imperial law, but are powerful enough to generally get way with it.

Unless the Ordo Xenos decide they aren't

Now that would be an interesting fight.

Well its not likely to go that far as the RT will be imperial port and the Inquisitor will simply board the ship to say hello (under the guns of the Navy / star port) and inspect the cargo etc - if they want to resist they need to have the right favours to call in with the Inquisitors peers or be prepared to go renegade................

A number of examples in the fluff of Inquisitors using their complete leverage in RT to get them to act as they want - in fact in the C Cain books, its even mentioned as in universe cliché that Inquisitors often pose as R Traders

Don't you mean Blood Magpies?

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Reading the description for the EMP grenade in Deathwatch, it is clear that:

1) it is rare, even in the Deathwatch

2) Said technology isn't a reverse-engineered version of a Tau or Eldar or Dark Eldar haywire grenade- it's the actual Tau or Eldar or Dark Eldar grenade.

Well, if there's few people that need it... why not use the stockpiles of captured xenos grenades? Taking out the filthy scum with their own weapons is adding insult to injury, which I guess the IoM is prefectly fine with.

SGTPozy wrote:
The Dreadknight is based on Tau tech, so yeah they do use Xeno tech (just look at those feet and tell me they aren't based on Tau suit's feet)

No. The Dreadknight predates the Tau discovering fire.

 Grey Templar wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
The Dreadknight is based on Tau tech, so yeah they do use Xeno tech (just look at those feet and tell me they aren't based on Tau suit's feet)

No. The Dreadknight predates the Tau discovering fire.

Wasn't the dreadknight from an incomplete STC template?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
The Dreadknight is based on Tau tech, so yeah they do use Xeno tech (just look at those feet and tell me they aren't based on Tau suit's feet)

No. The Dreadknight predates the Tau discovering fire.

Wasn't the dreadknight from an incomplete STC template?

No specifics as to the Dreadknights origins are stated, other than a vague reference to being related to Knight Titan technology.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
The Dreadknight is based on Tau tech, so yeah they do use Xeno tech (just look at those feet and tell me they aren't based on Tau suit's feet)

No. The Dreadknight predates the Tau discovering fire.

Wasn't the dreadknight from an incomplete STC template?

No specifics as to the Dreadknights origins are stated, other than a vague reference to being related to Knight Titan technology.

Huh. I guess it's best to assume it's ans STC template, either that or they found a cache of them or something.

Well it wouldn't have to be an STC.

TDA and PA don't have an STC. Nor do Nemesis Force Weapons.

How do they make them then, are they hand-crafted?

Maybe hand assembled.

NFWs might be hand forged, except for the electronic components.

Not having an STC simply means it was invented after STCs were no longer being made.

Force Weapons are all ritually handcrafted. That's part of the whole schtick to bearing one. You are a Bad Enough Dude-Psyker to warrant a master weaponsmith creating one for you. The psi-reactive circuitry (which might be crystalline, based on some descriptions) is woven into the matrix of the blade, etched with sacred runes and alloyed with psi-reactive metals, given a whole bunch of gilt and bling, and then handed off to someone who can kill you by thinking about it.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Not having an STC simply means it was invented after STCs were no longer being made.

or were something that was too unique/special/powerful to be made into an STC back in the day.

There arent STCs for Battleships I believe, some of them were build way back in the DAoT or age of strife, but in any event there was no STC for them because at the time they werent churning them out at a high rate.

Also not something a human colonist would need or, in most cases, be capable of using. If your autofactory spits out a four-kilometer long spaceship onto the factory floor, you've crushed your STC machine, as well as your colony.

 PhillyT wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Scorpionov wrote:
as the topic states has the imperium done it before?

That depends on what you mean by that.

Reading the description for the EMP grenade in Deathwatch, it is clear that:

1) it is rare, even in the Deathwatch, for alien technology to be issued... and that's in the Deathwatch. Claims it happens all the time, even in the upper echelons, are in conflict with fluff

2) Said technology isn't a reverse-engineered version of a Tau or Eldar or Dark Eldar haywire grenade- it's the actual Tau or Eldar or Dark Eldar grenade. Humans can figure out how to push the detonator or pull a trigger, but humanity lacks the technical know-how to actually reverse-engineer xenos weapons and mass-produce them.

That is completely false.

Should be page 157.

Read it and weep. Wishful thinking and C.S. Goto novels do not fluff make.


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 angelofvengeance wrote:
Don't you mean Blood Magpies?

Gods, I need to play through DoW 2 again. There's some funny stuff in that game.

For a long while, before I settled on Tau, my plan was to do a Blood Ravens chapter assembled from already-painted models purchased on Ebay that would be painted over incompletely enough that you could tell which chapters all of their tanks and power armor originally belonged to.

It specifically says that it cannot be reverse engineered because humans lack the technological know how?

We understand and can utilize EMP weapons in the year 2014. The idea that 38,000 later we would be baffled doesn't hold water.

Apparently the vaunted tau can't make sense of a melta bomb since they don't have them. Just too confusing...

lazer swords FTW? I don't suppose that anyone has yet built a Gue'vasa army with an AM\IG FOC? Infantry platoons with Pulse Rifles, Devilfish for Chimeras, Crisis Suits in place of Sentinels, Hammerheads rather than Leman Russes?

The Sollex-pattern power sword is, basically, a lightsaber. It has no physical blade, just a blade-like projection of matter-destroying energy.

 PhillyT wrote:
It specifically says that it cannot be reverse engineered because humans lack the technological know how?

We understand and can utilize EMP weapons in the year 2014. The idea that 38,000 later we would be baffled doesn't hold water.

Apparently the vaunted tau can't make sense of a melta bomb since they don't have them. Just too confusing...

Also note as well that Tau EMP grenades shouldn't actually do anything to any military tech. They're too small to generate an EMP capable of going through EMP hardening.

EMP grenades are a Rule of Cool thing for everyone.

Not to mention that EMP weapons shouldn't work against Eldar vehicles at all, since they use crystals and psi-power in place of metals and electrics.

Tau have EMP for the same reason they don't have meltabombs and visa versa: Because it is a techno way to deal with vehicles that fits the anime style of tau.

Imperials basically just scratch their head as to why you wouldn't just fry the thing with a melta bomb.

 Psienesis wrote:
EMP grenades are a Rule of Cool thing for everyone.

There's times when I really want to bother with writing more to improve my mechanics more so I could get hired by GW. Then hang a lampshade in universe. Like ridiculing a firewarrior for thinking his tiny EMP grenade would do anything to EMP hardened gear without being a nuclear scale NEMP with so much energy the target would just die anyway.


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 PhillyT wrote:
Tau have EMP for the same reason they don't have meltabombs and visa versa: Because it is a techno way to deal with vehicles that fits the anime style of tau.

Imperials basically just scratch their head as to why you wouldn't just fry the thing with a melta bomb.

This so much. By the time you have an EMP with enough energy to fry hardened electronics, you've got such a powerful NEMP it outright kills the target anyway. There's no real point to bothering with them at all besides safety.

EMP grenades are a tool of the greater good. (I'm only mentioning this because, well,background.) It makes the vehicle useless and harmless to their forces, but doesn't harm the crew, so they can be given the choice of joining the Tau Empire.

or prisoners (when used by eldar & DE)

Yeah, for one exapmple , the Tau XV15 stealth suit, they got a head from one and the Tau had to rush production of the new ones we see. is that what you were asking? also, the reason they dont use it is technoheracy.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
The Dreadknight is based on Tau tech, so yeah they do use Xeno tech (just look at those feet and tell me they aren't based on Tau suit's feet)

How about based on bird or theropod feet? I don't think Tau, I think T-Rex. The Dreadknight has a backwards toe for stability as opposed to the Tau who are prone to falling over backwards.

Since when have tau been prone to falling over? Imperfections in the model does not reflect the fluff.
Although I wil agree, the dreadknight is human tech, an incomplete STC template, but human never-the-less.

Imperfections in the model do reflect the fluff. Because the model is the fluff. If the model has an imperfection that makes it fall over then that is how it is. Just not written about.
Looking at the Tau suits, the back toe is far too short and stubby to support its weight. The Dreadknight has splayed toes to spread the weight and actually allow it to walk.

 PhillyT wrote:
It specifically says that it cannot be reverse engineered because humans lack the technological know how?

We understand and can utilize EMP weapons in the year 2014. The idea that 38,000 later we would be baffled doesn't hold water.

Apparently the vaunted tau can't make sense of a melta bomb since they don't have them. Just too confusing...

We understand night vision tech no, and 38,000 years in the future people are putting searchlights on tanks.

Yes, they lack the know-how.

Tau don't build melta-bombs because Fire Warriors aren't supposed to get close to enemies.

They use a safe alternative for vehicles, because it's primarily vehicles they can't handle with massed pulse rifle fire.


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 Wyzilla wrote:


Also note as well that Tau EMP grenades shouldn't actually do anything to any military tech. They're too small to generate an EMP capable of going through EMP hardening.

... except they're clearly not too small, because they *do.*


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
EMP grenades are a Rule of Cool thing for everyone.

... except the Imperium, which can't build them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PhillyT wrote:
Tau have EMP for the same reason they don't have meltabombs and visa versa: Because it is a techno way to deal with vehicles that fits the anime style of tau.

... I presume dark eldar also use haywire grenades because it is a techno way to deal with vehicles that fits the anime style of the dark eldar?

More races than the Tau figured out haywire weaponry. The Deathwatch use alien haywire grenades because the Imperium can't build its own.


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 Wyzilla wrote:


This so much. By the time you have an EMP with enough energy to fry hardened electronics, you've got such a powerful NEMP it outright kills the target anyway. There's no real point to bothering with them at all besides safety.

What makes you think the Imperium knows how to harden electronics?

So tau aren't supposed to get close to vehicles yet they have emp grenades to use when they get close to vehicles?

As far as the night vision issue, we know the imperium uses night vision on a large scale. It is in the fluff, in the novels, in the FW IA books. During the Damocles crusade it was specifically stated that Tau NV was better than the Guard equipment, but the space marine version was about the same.

Again, you don't honestly want to delve into trying to use basic crunch to say something does or does not exist.

 PhillyT wrote:
So tau aren't supposed to get close to vehicles yet they have emp grenades to use when they get close to vehicles?

As far as the night vision issue, we know the imperium uses night vision on a large scale. It is in the fluff, in the novels, in the FW IA books. During the Damocles crusade it was specifically stated that Tau NV was better than the Guard equipment, but the space marine version was about the same.

Again, you don't honestly want to delve into trying to use basic crunch to say something does or does not exist.

Yeah, this here. Space Marine helmets have UV, IR and Night Vision as standard, and Terminator suits have things like motion sensors too.

 PhillyT wrote:
So tau aren't supposed to get close to vehicles yet they have emp grenades to use when they get close to vehicles?

I'm not sure you're aware of this, but there are a lot of vehicles that move faster than people can run.

So this is just a case where you are selective in your application of technology, crunch, and reality. Gotcha.

You are aware that the abstraction of melta bombs and EMP grenades is that they are used at close to zero range and the implication is that they are also used on a vehicle as they drive by. It is part of the abstraction.

 PhillyT wrote:
So this is just a case where you are selective in your application of technology, crunch, and reality. Gotcha.

You are aware that the abstraction of melta bombs and EMP grenades is that they are used at close to zero range and the implication is that they are also used on a vehicle as they drive by. It is part of the abstraction.

What isn't is that an EMP grenade will leave the shell of a vehicle for capture... and fluff-wise, an EMP grenade won't cook off and kill the user.

text removed.

Reds8n

We understand night vision tech no, and 38,000 years in the future people are putting searchlights on tanks.

search lights have their own advantages though, namely that it can be directed at something and used by other people. less high tech yes, and does suffer from some glaring weaknesses, but it's proably a MUCH cheaper alternative then equipping every soldier you have with expensive lightweight night vision.

I was under the impression that we were discussing the background in the 40k universe, not our own. if someone wants to try something from the 40k universe in this one, I'd suggest throwing a partially full magazine into a fire to reload it, just as the guard does for their lasguns.

If I was to model a real life Plasma Gun, it would be real easy - a squirt gun. 'gets hot' is what happens when the medics & quartermasters catch up with you.

Yes real emps are not the same as emps in warhammer. Why do people insist on trying to apply real world technologies to a sci if world?

 Wyzilla wrote:

Everyone, give another round for Norton for further proving his complete ignorance of science!

No. To get an effective EMP, you need a NEMP, where you detonate a nuke in the upper atmosphere of a planet like Earth to interact with the planetary magnetic field, producing an EMP. An EMP the size of a Tau grenade would do absolutely nothing to nobody (save maybe fething up your digital watch) due to not being a nuclear bomb. As there are not gigantic craters the size of a small city whenever a Tau Firewarrior arms the frag, they quite clearly aren't EMP's.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:


This so much. By the time you have an EMP with enough energy to fry hardened electronics, you've got such a powerful NEMP it outright kills the target anyway. There's no real point to bothering with them at all besides safety.

What makes you think the Imperium knows how to harden electronics?

No. Sometimes, I even use actual wikipedia.

Non-nuclear electromagnetic pulse (NNEMP) is a weapon-generated electromagnetic pulse without use of nuclear technology. Devices that can achieve this objective include a large low-inductance capacitor bank discharged into a single-loop antenna, a microwave generator and an explosively pumped flux compression generator. To achieve the frequency characteristics of the pulse needed for optimal coupling into the target, wave-shaping circuits and/or microwave generators are added between the pulse source and the antenna. Vircators are vacuum tubes that are particularly suitable for microwave conversion of high-energy pulses.[3]

NNEMP generators can be carried as a payload of bombs, cruise missiles (such as the CHAMP missile) and drones, with diminished mechanical, thermal and ionizing radiation effects, but without the political consequences of deploying nuclear weapons.

The range of NNEMP weapons (non-nuclear electromagnetic pulse bombs) is much less than nuclear EMP. Nearly all NNEMP devices used as weapons require chemical explosives as their initial energy source, producing only 10−6 (one millionth) the energy of nuclear explosives of similar weight.[4] The electromagnetic pulse from NNEMP weapons must come from within the weapon, while nuclear weapons generate EMP as a secondary effect.[5] These facts limit the range of NNEMP weapons, but allow finer target discrimination. The effect of small e-bombs has proven to be sufficient for certain terrorist or military operations. Examples of such operations include the destruction of electronic control systems critical to the operation of many ground vehicles and aircraft.[6]

The concept of the explosively pumped flux compression generator for generating a non-nuclear electromagnetic pulse was conceived as early as 1951 by Andrei Sakharov in the Soviet Union,[7] but nations kept work on non-nuclear EMP classified until similar ideas emerge in other nations.


... so, I'll add non-nuclear EMP weapons to the list of things that America (feth yeah!) can do that the Imperium can't.

 carldooley wrote:
I was under the impression that we were discussing the background in the 40k universe, not our own. if someone wants to try something from the 40k universe in this one, I'd suggest throwing a partially full magazine into a fire to reload it, just as the guard does for their lasguns.

If I was to model a real life Plasma Gun, it would be real easy - a squirt gun. 'gets hot' is what happens when the medics & quartermasters catch up with you.

Plasma guns function via hydrogen flasks (and presumably an energy pack). The hydrogen flask is the thing that has a nasty habit of blowing up in one's face.

 carlos13th wrote:
Yes real emps are not the same as emps in warhammer. Why do people insist on trying to apply real world technologies to a sci if world?

Boredom, mostly.


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BrianDavion wrote:

We understand night vision tech no, and 38,000 years in the future people are putting searchlights on tanks.

search lights have their own advantages though, namely that it can be directed at something and used by other people. less high tech yes, and does suffer from some glaring weaknesses, but it's proably a MUCH cheaper alternative then equipping every soldier you have with expensive lightweight night vision.

IRL, the problem with a searchlight (that isn't modeled in 40k) is that you have to search around with a searchlight in order to find something. You can't just say, "I bet there's a tank over there," light it up with the light, and have platoon shoot the target.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
The Dreadknight is based on Tau tech, so yeah they do use Xeno tech (just look at those feet and tell me they aren't based on Tau suit's feet)

How about based on bird or theropod feet? I don't think Tau, I think T-Rex. The Dreadknight has a backwards toe for stability as opposed to the Tau who are prone to falling over backwards.

Since when have tau been prone to falling over? Imperfections in the model does not reflect the fluff.
Although I wil agree, the dreadknight is human tech, an incomplete STC template, but human never-the-less.

Imperfections in the model do reflect the fluff. Because the model is the fluff. If the model has an imperfection that makes it fall over then that is how it is. Just not written about.
Looking at the Tau suits, the back toe is far too short and stubby to support its weight. The Dreadknight has splayed toes to spread the weight and actually allow it to walk.

Yeaaah, no.
All the models are extreme;y out of proposion, and have nothing to do with exact fluff. You are trying to compare a static plastic model to an agile, anti-grav and thruster equipped, highly advanced piece of machinery, It's not how it works.

There is no need for the rudeness being displayed by some posters in this thread.

Stop it now.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
So this is just a case where you are selective in your application of technology, crunch, and reality. Gotcha.

You are aware that the abstraction of melta bombs and EMP grenades is that they are used at close to zero range and the implication is that they are also used on a vehicle as they drive by. It is part of the abstraction.

What isn't is that an EMP grenade will leave the shell of a vehicle for capture... and fluff-wise, an EMP grenade won't cook off and kill the user.

Do Tau have a history of repurposing vehicles?

Come on, the idea that the Imperium can't do EMP when we can today is silly. The Imperium doesn't use EMP because it uses Melta bombs instead.

 PhillyT wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
So this is just a case where you are selective in your application of technology, crunch, and reality. Gotcha.

You are aware that the abstraction of melta bombs and EMP grenades is that they are used at close to zero range and the implication is that they are also used on a vehicle as they drive by. It is part of the abstraction.

What isn't is that an EMP grenade will leave the shell of a vehicle for capture... and fluff-wise, an EMP grenade won't cook off and kill the user.

Do Tau have a history of repurposing vehicles?

Come on, the idea that the Imperium can't do EMP when we can today is silly. The Imperium doesn't use EMP because it uses Melta bombs instead.

Just because we know it now doesn't mean the Imperium does as well, for example no one in the Imperium except the Adeptus Mechanicus can figure out Binary. The Imperium being technologically backwards in many ways and not understanding some things that seem fairly simple is part of who they are and is sort of the point of them.

... Haywire Grenades. Seriously. The Imperium has them. Stole the idea from the Eldar (before there were Tau to steal from). The AdMech doesn't like them because, duh, they totally feth up cogitators and things, so they produce them in limited numbers, but the Imperium has EMP technology.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
The Dreadknight is based on Tau tech, so yeah they do use Xeno tech (just look at those feet and tell me they aren't based on Tau suit's feet)

How about based on bird or theropod feet? I don't think Tau, I think T-Rex. The Dreadknight has a backwards toe for stability as opposed to the Tau who are prone to falling over backwards.

Since when have tau been prone to falling over? Imperfections in the model does not reflect the fluff.
Although I wil agree, the dreadknight is human tech, an incomplete STC template, but human never-the-less.

Imperfections in the model do reflect the fluff. Because the model is the fluff. If the model has an imperfection that makes it fall over then that is how it is. Just not written about.
Looking at the Tau suits, the back toe is far too short and stubby to support its weight. The Dreadknight has splayed toes to spread the weight and actually allow it to walk.

Yeaaah, no.
All the models are extreme;y out of proposion, and have nothing to do with exact fluff. You are trying to compare a static plastic model to an agile, anti-grav and thruster equipped, highly advanced piece of machinery, It's not how it works.

So are you say that Tau back toes *aren't* too stubby to hold their weight?

 Deadshot wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
The Dreadknight is based on Tau tech, so yeah they do use Xeno tech (just look at those feet and tell me they aren't based on Tau suit's feet)

How about based on bird or theropod feet? I don't think Tau, I think T-Rex. The Dreadknight has a backwards toe for stability as opposed to the Tau who are prone to falling over backwards.

Since when have tau been prone to falling over? Imperfections in the model does not reflect the fluff.
Although I wil agree, the dreadknight is human tech, an incomplete STC template, but human never-the-less.

Imperfections in the model do reflect the fluff. Because the model is the fluff. If the model has an imperfection that makes it fall over then that is how it is. Just not written about.
Looking at the Tau suits, the back toe is far too short and stubby to support its weight. The Dreadknight has splayed toes to spread the weight and actually allow it to walk.

Yeaaah, no.
All the models are extreme;y out of proposion, and have nothing to do with exact fluff. You are trying to compare a static plastic model to an agile, anti-grav and thruster equipped, highly advanced piece of machinery, It's not how it works.

So are you say that Tau back toes *aren't* too stubby to hold their weight?

40K operates on rule of cool. There is not logic, it's 40k. Physics have no place here, it's 40k. If you ever see anything that doesn't make sense, it's 40k being, well, 40k.


And I think the back toe is just t model it off of the tau foot. The battlsuits would balance (if a guy on stilts can do it, surely a highly advanced piece of equipment, with gyroscopes, an auto-stabilizers can).

The thing you have to realise about the feet on Tau Battlesuits is that they're only there for the Battlesuit to rest on between missions. They spend their entire time on deployment at least a foot off the ground.

The assassins use weapons suspected to be forged of be necrodemis(the living metals from which their vehicles and bodies are made). These weapons are said to be especially lethal because they phase in and out of reality making them unblockable except by another weapon made of that material.

So as stated above the real answer is yes while the official answer would be an emphatic no!!!

Cypher used to have a C'tan Phase Knife too, until he tried to kill the Deceiver with it.

 PhillyT wrote:
It specifically says that it cannot be reverse engineered because humans lack the technological know how?

We understand and can utilize EMP weapons in the year 2014. The idea that 38,000 later we would be baffled doesn't hold water.

Apparently the vaunted tau can't make sense of a melta bomb since they don't have them. Just too confusing...

If a bunch of Tau EMP grenades fell into the laps of the US military, they probably wouldn't be able to replicate them. They'd understand the principle of how EMP's work. They know the device somehow causes one. They just wouldn't be able to make copies because some of the tech is beyond them.

The Ad Mech understands the concepts behind the Tau EMP grenades, they simply don't have the capacity or ability to replicate them.

If I have a computer, I understand how the basic silicone chips work. but I wouldn't have faintest clue how to make my own from scratch.

 Grey Templar wrote:
If I have a computer, I understand how the basic silicone chips work. but I wouldn't have faintest clue how to make my own from scratch.

you could probably make a computer from base materials, but it would take a while if starting from scratch. good luck though, especially when it comes to doing the coding.

The Ad Mech understands the concepts behind the Tau EMP grenades, they simply don't have the capacity or ability to replicate them.

They have both the capacity and the ability. What the AdMech doesn't have is the willingness. EMP offends the Machine Spirits.

 carldooley wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
If I have a computer, I understand how the basic silicone chips work. but I wouldn't have faintest clue how to make my own from scratch.

you could probably make a computer from base materials, but it would take a while if starting from scratch. good luck though, especially when it comes to doing the coding.

I don't know if you ever saw the Ted Talk where the guy tried to make a Toaster from scratch. Didn't work out so well, and he was trying to replicate the cheapest available toaster on the market. And Toasters are much much simpler than Computers.

 Psienesis wrote:

The Ad Mech understands the concepts behind the Tau EMP grenades, they simply don't have the capacity or ability to replicate them.

They have both the capacity and the ability. What the AdMech doesn't have is the willingness. EMP offends the Machine Spirits.

... and yet, the Deathwatch uses them.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

The Ad Mech understands the concepts behind the Tau EMP grenades, they simply don't have the capacity or ability to replicate them.

They have both the capacity and the ability. What the AdMech doesn't have is the willingness. EMP offends the Machine Spirits.

... and yet, the Deathwatch uses them.

Deathwatch is a Inquisitorial Ordo Militant answerable only to the Inquisition. They get the job done killing Xenos, no human tech is harmed (usually).....

Quickjager wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

The Ad Mech understands the concepts behind the Tau EMP grenades, they simply don't have the capacity or ability to replicate them.

They have both the capacity and the ability. What the AdMech doesn't have is the willingness. EMP offends the Machine Spirits.

... and yet, the Deathwatch uses them.

Deathwatch is a Inquisitorial Ordo Militant answerable only to the Inquisition. They get the job done killing Xenos, no human tech is harmed (usually).....

Perhaps, then, we could get a book that backs up the claim that the AdMech understands haywire weaponry to the point they could build their own if they wished?

Besides- LOTS of branches of the Imperium spend time killing xenos, and none of them use hayware weaponry.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Besides- LOTS of branches of the Imperium spend time killing xenos, and none of them use hayware weaponry.

That is because the point of the rest of the Imperium is to KILL those Xenos, not capture or convert them.

The Deathwatch break the rules a lot. The AdMech probably don't understand EMP... but they're very good at building things they don't understand.

After all, the AdMech themselves have nothing to worry about when it comes to EMP. They all use noospheric systems anyway.

I will just point out (to nobdy in partucular), that we are talking about the AdMec's current understanding, they would obviously understand this stuff in the DAoT.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Deathwatch break the rules a lot. The AdMech probably don't understand EMP... but they're very good at building things they don't understand.

After all, the AdMech themselves have nothing to worry about when it comes to EMP. They all use noospheric systems anyway.

I think they understand EMP. It is a basic scientific concept well below their insanely high level of knowledge.

Can they whip up EMP grenades like those of the tau? Not without more work than they would be willing or allowed to do.

But the argument that they can't because it is too hard ignores the fact that they makes things like melta bombs yet tau can't.

In both cases is it a case of can't or won't.

Deathwatch only use EMP in the rpg don't they? Probably to add flavor to the mission variety for the GM.

 PhillyT wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Deathwatch break the rules a lot. The AdMech probably don't understand EMP... but they're very good at building things they don't understand.

After all, the AdMech themselves have nothing to worry about when it comes to EMP. They all use noospheric systems anyway.

I think they understand EMP. It is a basic scientific concept well below their insanely high level of knowledge.

Can they whip up EMP grenades like those of the tau? Not without more work than they would be willing or allowed to do.

But the argument that they can't because it is too hard ignores the fact that they makes things like melta bombs yet tau can't.

In both cases is it a case of can't or won't.

Deathwatch only use EMP in the rpg don't they? Probably to add flavor to the mission variety for the GM.

The AdMech has a high level of technology. They have a level of understanding that is the lowest of any race in the galaxy save the Orks and Tyranids... and that might be generous, since in most cases, "it works because it should" seems to be the train of thought of both AdMech techs and Ork meks.

Searchlights on vehicles. Searchlights on vehicles.

A melta bomb is a big shaped charge. Not that difficult to make.

Tau *don't* make big shaped charged because they have EMP grenades, which more reliably damage vehicles... especially the big, heavy vehicles that are a danger to Fire Warriors, because a full Fire Warrior squad will blow up most transports before they get close enough to let our troops... especially with some token markerlight support.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
It specifically says that it cannot be reverse engineered because humans lack the technological know how?

We understand and can utilize EMP weapons in the year 2014. The idea that 38,000 later we would be baffled doesn't hold water.

Apparently the vaunted tau can't make sense of a melta bomb since they don't have them. Just too confusing...

If a bunch of Tau EMP grenades fell into the laps of the US military, they probably wouldn't be able to replicate them. They'd understand the principle of how EMP's work. They know the device somehow causes one. They just wouldn't be able to make copies because some of the tech is beyond them.

The Ad Mech understands the concepts behind the Tau EMP grenades, they simply don't have the capacity or ability to replicate them.

If I have a computer, I understand how the basic silicone chips work. but I wouldn't have faintest clue how to make my own from scratch.

it could also be that they could make them, but that they could never make enough of them or at a cost that they afford to throw them at enemy tanks

Also remember the scale on which the AdMech are supplying vs the Earth Caste. The Earth Caste are supply, what, a dozen million? A billion? That's cute, says the AdMech. The AdMech are supplying so many different forces with different weapons and equipment number in the holy-feth-I-cant-even-count-that-high-zillions.

If the AdMech were supplying a force as smaller as the Tau War Machine to exclusion of everything else, that force would be equipped so well they could wipe the Tau off the face of the universe.

That is because the imperium has an exceedingly large amount of resources. Give them the same amount of resources, and that tau have the advantage.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
That is because the imperium has an exceedingly large amount of resources. Give them the same amount of resources, and that tau have the advantage.

maybe but they might also begin to run into logistical problems at that scale. thats why the IoM is built and equipped the way they are, logistics dictates their equipment, not technology

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
That is because the imperium has an exceedingly large amount of resources. Give them the same amount of resources, and that tau have the advantage.

All you are saying is you want the advantages without the downside. Yea you get all the IoM resources, cool you don't have the population they do so EVERYONE has a riptide. Its not the same or a good argument.

The tau never could spread that far. Lacking psyker powers, they would not be able to travel effectively

 PhillyT wrote:
The tau never could spread that far. Lacking psyker powers, they would not be able to travel effectively

The Tau race lacks psykers. The Tau Empire does not.

We got a big hefty bunch of humans when we starting taking worlds on your side of the Gulf of Damocles.

Plus, there are the Nicassarr and probably several other races under the Empire's flag that can use it.

Cooperation from other races with other abilities is the plus side to the Tau's "Don't be a dick," foreign policy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
That is because the imperium has an exceedingly large amount of resources. Give them the same amount of resources, and that tau have the advantage.

maybe but they might also begin to run into logistical problems at that scale. thats why the IoM is built and equipped the way they are, logistics dictates their equipment, not technology

I'm not sure I believe that.

What special material or other limitation prevents the IoM from making more bolters, given its massive size?

The Tau will be able to field Fire Warriors with Hammerheads and pulse rifles no matter how big they get, assuming they use a decentralized scheme- which they do, with their Sept worlds. In the Imperium,there is a massive load of bureaocracy that goes with every decision, because humans are afraid that someone will fall to Chaos in an important position.

The Tau don't have that worry with their leaders, because the upper echelons are immune to corruption from Chaos.

They got a handful of psykers potentially, but not enough. They could get other psykers to help out from other races.

But their brand of space communism only lasts as long as they are isolated and annoying rather than truly expansionist and a threat.

Additionally, whatever race planted the Ethereals would likely come calling at some point.

Enjoy your demons! That is what unsanctioned psykers will get ya half the time.

Anyway if we follow the blatant parrallels to communism, it becomes apparent their methods work only on a small scale, that only consists of their species.

Quickjager wrote:
Enjoy your demons! That is what unsanctioned psykers will get ya half the time.

Anyway if we follow the blatant parrallels to communism, it becomes apparent their methods work only on a small scale, that only consists of their species.

They've been doing just fine these past 6,000 years, thank you very much!

Besides, sanctioned use of psykers gets you daemons often enough, it's clearly worth the risk.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PhillyT wrote:
They got a handful of psykers potentially, but not enough. They could get other psykers to help out from other races.

But their brand of space communism only lasts as long as they are isolated and annoying rather than truly expansionist and a threat.

Additionally, whatever race planted the Ethereals would likely come calling at some point.

They currently are expansionist and a threat. Each expansion gets bigger and bigger... and humanity is too busy dealing with the Tyranids and Necrons and Abaddon to worry about the Tau.


... and I'm not sure how much you should look forward to that. The most popular theory seems to be the Eldar Harlequinns... if the Tau got access to the Webway, their single biggest disadvantage vs the Imperium would be gone.

They did fine while another, more powerful race, kept them protected from the rest of the universe using a warp storm.

This is over looked again and again. There is nothing "self made" about the tau. They are the product of another race's intervention

Mmmmm not really afraid of the Tau allied with Eldar, everything the Tau do Eldar can do better and be psychic to boot.

And demons from sacntioned psykers are rare, it only seems like they are common because theres a book or game on every incident. There is a lot about Imperial psykers you don't know.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
The tau never could spread that far. Lacking psyker powers, they would not be able to travel effectively

The Tau race lacks psykers. The Tau Empire does not.

We got a big hefty bunch of humans when we starting taking worlds on your side of the Gulf of Damocles.

Plus, there are the Nicassarr and probably several other races under the Empire's flag that can use it.

Cooperation from other races with other abilities is the plus side to the Tau's "Don't be a dick," foreign policy.

And the Tau don't even know the Nicassarr are psykers. The Tau aren't even 100% convinced psykers exist.

Plus the various psychic races the Tau think are part of the collective aren't exactly sharing. They aren't even aware the Kroot have their own warp drive capabilities which are superior to their own.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
The tau never could spread that far. Lacking psyker powers, they would not be able to travel effectively

The Tau race lacks psykers. The Tau Empire does not.

We got a big hefty bunch of humans when we starting taking worlds on your side of the Gulf of Damocles.

Plus, there are the Nicassarr and probably several other races under the Empire's flag that can use it.

Cooperation from other races with other abilities is the plus side to the Tau's "Don't be a dick," foreign policy.

And the Tau don't even know the Nicassarr are psykers. The Tau aren't even 100% convinced psykers exist.

Plus the various psychic races the Tau think are part of the collective aren't exactly sharing. They aren't even aware the Kroot have their own warp drive capabilities which are superior to their own.

Not true, not true in the slightest. The tau specificaly hide the Nisacar from the Imperium, because they know that they are psykers.

If the Tau started having large numbers of osykers under their control they'd likely run into the same problems the IoM has with them. possiably even worse. resentment about another race ruling them is a pretty easy hook for chaos to act through honestly. The Tau honestly strike me as kinda naive as races go. they'd likely if they got big eneugh have their own version of the Horus Heresy. and I suspect it'd go just as bad for them

The tau are very naive about anything that has to do with the warp, the reason for this is twofold,
a. they have yet to have a massive demonic incursion (although I must point out that there is a large area on the eastern front of the tau area that has to be constantly guarded by the air caste to stop deons from escaping).
and
b. they have no psykers in their own race, and thus lack a lot of knowledge of it.

Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:


And the Tau don't even know the Nicassarr are psykers. The Tau aren't even 100% convinced psykers exist.

Plus the various psychic races the Tau think are part of the collective aren't exactly sharing. They aren't even aware the Kroot have their own warp drive capabilities which are superior to their own.

Not true, not true in the slightest. The tau specificaly hide the Nisacar from the Imperium, because they know that they are psykers.

Nisacar ?

Tau hide... n i s a c a are .....maybe Nissan Cars ?
Interesting

Co'tor Shas wrote:The tau are very naive about anything that has to do with the warp, the reason for this is twofold,
a. they have yet to have a massive demonic incursion (although I must point out that there is a large area on the eastern front of the tau area that has to be constantly guarded by the air caste to stop demons from escaping).
and
b. they have no psykers in their own race, and thus lack a lot of knowledge of it.

Yes to a + b.

But.. there surely is one in the making.
The recent "buy riptides and/or buy IK " fluff points to worlds fortified to keep the Demons out. If you don't know much about Demons, or Seals to protect the gates, or such "magic", then maybe you are opening a new can of worms without realising what you did there.

 PhillyT wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Deathwatch break the rules a lot. The AdMech probably don't understand EMP... but they're very good at building things they don't understand.

After all, the AdMech themselves have nothing to worry about when it comes to EMP. They all use noospheric systems anyway.

I think they understand EMP. It is a basic scientific concept well below their insanely high level of knowledge.

Can they whip up EMP grenades like those of the tau? Not without more work than they would be willing or allowed to do.

But the argument that they can't because it is too hard ignores the fact that they makes things like melta bombs yet tau can't.

In both cases is it a case of can't or won't.

Deathwatch only use EMP in the rpg don't they? Probably to add flavor to the mission variety for the GM.

What even slightly suggests the Tau can't make things like Meta bombs? Not having them doesn't mean anything, tere's a difference between not knowing how to make them and just not wanting to use them. Giving Firewarriors Melta bombs would then change their role, they aren't meant to be taking on vehicles that would require something like that.

 Deadshot wrote:
Also remember the scale on which the AdMech are supplying vs the Earth Caste. The Earth Caste are supply, what, a dozen million? A billion? That's cute, says the AdMech. The AdMech are supplying so many different forces with different weapons and equipment number in the holy-feth-I-cant-even-count-that-high-zillions.

If the AdMech were supplying a force as smaller as the Tau War Machine to exclusion of everything else, that force would be equipped so well they could wipe the Tau off the face of the universe.

There already are forces that are supplied exclusively with certain equipment, though. Space Marines are supplied with some of the best equipment the Imperium can make, and it's not like they have to share things like Rhinos or Bolters with anyone else (at least not in a way that would affect how it's distributed) so they get the majority of those things. What they get still isn't that much better or advanced than what the Tau have, and there certainly aren't as many Space Marines as Tau. Groups like the Deathwatch and the Grey knights aren't much different and there are even fewer of them.

Obviously equipping a few million with high quality stuff is much easier than giving the same thing to a much higher number, but it's not as if Guard regiments are being given bad equipment. What they get is some of the better military equipment the Imperium can make. Even if there weren't as many of them they'd probably still be using Lasguns and Flak armour, they wouldn't be giving every guardsman plasma guns and power armour. There isn't really anything better the Imperium could give them except for things like Hellguns and Carapace armour, but there are downsides to those and they aren't just straight upgrades. They could certainly give them worse things than what they currently get. What sort of things do you imagine they would be given if they didn't have to supply so many different forces?

Even when they would only have to manufacture things on a small scale they tend to use captured versions instead, which suggests they don't understand the technology. It's not as if they would have to make a huge amount of things like haywire grenades if they could do it themselves.There's no real reason for them not to make their own if they could, it would be easier than having to find them and bring them all the way back. They've made their own versions of things based off Alien designs before, i remember reading they made their own version of a Tau stealth field generator to give to the Deathwatch, although i don't think it was quite as good and worked differently.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Deathwatch break the rules a lot. The AdMech probably don't understand EMP... but they're very good at building things they don't understand.

After all, the AdMech themselves have nothing to worry about when it comes to EMP. They all use noospheric systems anyway.

I think they understand EMP. It is a basic scientific concept well below their insanely high level of knowledge.

Can they whip up EMP grenades like those of the tau? Not without more work than they would be willing or allowed to do.

But the argument that they can't because it is too hard ignores the fact that they makes things like melta bombs yet tau can't.

In both cases is it a case of can't or won't.

Deathwatch only use EMP in the rpg don't they? Probably to add flavor to the mission variety for the GM.

What even slightly suggests the Tau can't make things like Meta bombs? Not having them doesn't mean anything, tere's a difference between not knowing how to make them and just not wanting to use them. Giving Firewarriors Melta bombs would then change their role, they aren't meant to be taking on vehicles that would require something like that.

And that is what I am getting at. If the Ad Mech don't have EMP grenades, it is because they are too stupid. If the Tau don't have melta weapons, it is because they chose to not use them.

Perfect Tau Fanboy argument right there.

 PhillyT wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Deathwatch break the rules a lot. The AdMech probably don't understand EMP... but they're very good at building things they don't understand.

After all, the AdMech themselves have nothing to worry about when it comes to EMP. They all use noospheric systems anyway.

I think they understand EMP. It is a basic scientific concept well below their insanely high level of knowledge.

Can they whip up EMP grenades like those of the tau? Not without more work than they would be willing or allowed to do.

But the argument that they can't because it is too hard ignores the fact that they makes things like melta bombs yet tau can't.

In both cases is it a case of can't or won't.

Deathwatch only use EMP in the rpg don't they? Probably to add flavor to the mission variety for the GM.

What even slightly suggests the Tau can't make things like Meta bombs? Not having them doesn't mean anything, tere's a difference between not knowing how to make them and just not wanting to use them. Giving Firewarriors Melta bombs would then change their role, they aren't meant to be taking on vehicles that would require something like that.

And that is what I am getting at. If the Ad Mech don't have EMP grenades, it is because they are too stupid. If the Tau don't have melta weapons, it is because they chose to not use them.

Perfect Tau Fanboy argument right there.

Actully, tau do have melta-bombs, it's just that they don't make grenade sized melta-bombs.

Honestly, I'm sure the the admech knows how EMP works (or at least those higher up the chain), but may not have a design. I'm sure that there was a human one some time in the past, but it probebly was:
a. Only used very rarely, and thus the design was lost..
b. Was to expensive and therefore rare, and thus the the design was lost.
or c. It was just plain lost.

 PhillyT wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Deathwatch break the rules a lot. The AdMech probably don't understand EMP... but they're very good at building things they don't understand.

After all, the AdMech themselves have nothing to worry about when it comes to EMP. They all use noospheric systems anyway.

I think they understand EMP. It is a basic scientific concept well below their insanely high level of knowledge.

Can they whip up EMP grenades like those of the tau? Not without more work than they would be willing or allowed to do.

But the argument that they can't because it is too hard ignores the fact that they makes things like melta bombs yet tau can't.

In both cases is it a case of can't or won't.

Deathwatch only use EMP in the rpg don't they? Probably to add flavor to the mission variety for the GM.

What even slightly suggests the Tau can't make things like Meta bombs? Not having them doesn't mean anything, tere's a difference between not knowing how to make them and just not wanting to use them. Giving Firewarriors Melta bombs would then change their role, they aren't meant to be taking on vehicles that would require something like that.

And that is what I am getting at. If the Ad Mech don't have EMP grenades, it is because they are too stupid. If the Tau don't have melta weapons, it is because they chose to not use them.

Perfect Tau Fanboy argument right there.

It's not exactly the same situation. We've seen no Tau melta-bombs, but we've also seen nothing to suggest they'd want to make their own or use them. The Imperium makes use of captured EMP weapons, so they clearly want them, but we've seen nothing to suggest they know how to make their own and they only use alien versions. It doesn't definitely mean they don't know how to make their own, but they have made their own versions of things based on alien technology before and making their own would make more sense than having to go and find some.

So, either the Imperium doesn't understand the concept behind them, doesn't know how to make their own that would work quite as well or knows how to make them, but would rather just continue using captured ones for some reason

Quickjager wrote:
Mmmmm not really afraid of the Tau allied with Eldar, everything the Tau do Eldar can do better and be psychic to boot.

And demons from sacntioned psykers are rare, it only seems like they are common because theres a book or game on every incident. There is a lot about Imperial psykers you don't know.

Yes, we know. Most of them get eaten by your corpse god... and in this case, most really means most, since the fluff goes out of the way to describe just how few manage to get sanctioned, and that tens of thousands of psykers get eaten by the false emperor every day.


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Quickjager wrote:
Mmmmm not really afraid of the Tau allied with Eldar, everything the Tau do Eldar can do better and be psychic to boot.

Tau, compared to Eldar, are good at making babies. They're not dying off. There will always be more Tau Fire Warriors ready to pick up a pulse rifle and mow down Guardsmen.

They're also good at talking their enemies out of fighting or switching sides. A lot of worlds in the expansion across the Damocles Gulf simply joined the Greater Good, rather than fighting off an invasion.

That's something the Imperium should be scared of. If rogue traders start bringing word back to the Imperium that life is a lot easier on the Tau side of the line, human worlds may find themselves being overthrown from the bottom down.

Life sucks in the Imperium for the overwhelming majority of people.


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 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Not true, not true in the slightest. The tau specificaly hide the Nisacar from the Imperium, because they know that they are psykers.

You'll find this mentioned in the Battlefleet Gothic rules. Grey Templar seems to be making stuff up as he goes along.


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 PhillyT wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Deathwatch break the rules a lot. The AdMech probably don't understand EMP... but they're very good at building things they don't understand.

After all, the AdMech themselves have nothing to worry about when it comes to EMP. They all use noospheric systems anyway.

I think they understand EMP. It is a basic scientific concept well below their insanely high level of knowledge.

Can they whip up EMP grenades like those of the tau? Not without more work than they would be willing or allowed to do.

But the argument that they can't because it is too hard ignores the fact that they makes things like melta bombs yet tau can't.

In both cases is it a case of can't or won't.

Deathwatch only use EMP in the rpg don't they? Probably to add flavor to the mission variety for the GM.

What even slightly suggests the Tau can't make things like Meta bombs? Not having them doesn't mean anything, tere's a difference between not knowing how to make them and just not wanting to use them. Giving Firewarriors Melta bombs would then change their role, they aren't meant to be taking on vehicles that would require something like that.

And that is what I am getting at. If the Ad Mech don't have EMP grenades, it is because they are too stupid. If the Tau don't have melta weapons, it is because they chose to not use them.

Perfect Tau Fanboy argument right there.

The Tau have melta weapons. In fact, our fusion gun is pointedly better than what the imperium uses- 18" range vs 12".

... why would you make a bomb when you have a melta gun with a longer range? At the maximum of throwing range (7-8") an Imperial melta gun doesn't get its full benefit, so it's nice to have something you can throw at that range. Since a Tau fusion gun can reach out past that point, why make a bomb?


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BrianDavion wrote:
If the Tau started having large numbers of osykers under their control they'd likely run into the same problems the IoM has with them. possiably even worse. resentment about another race ruling them is a pretty easy hook for chaos to act through honestly. The Tau honestly strike me as kinda naive as races go. they'd likely if they got big eneugh have their own version of the Horus Heresy. and I suspect it'd go just as bad for them

1) We actually don't have any idea what the Ethereals know.

2) The reason there can't be a Tau HH is because everyone in the high end of the command chain (and by everyone there, I of course mean the Tau race) can't be corrupted by Chaos. They have no psychic link.

One thing to consider, though, is that the Tau have no corpse that needs to consume psykers to "stay alive." The Tau will be able to make use of a much larger percentage of what they do find, compared to the Imperium.

You really don't need a psychic link to be corrupted by chaos...

Imperials have man portable 24" melta weapons Emp. Actually, they have 36' large blast template meltas too.

And tau seem incapable of producing melta bombs... if you buy the argument that a lack of an item means the race in question can't produce the item.
Throughout these discussions you consistently make the claim that a lack of said item from the imperium means they have no understanding or ability to produce that item while arguing the Tau not having an item is somehow by choice.

 PhillyT wrote:
Imperials have man portable 24" melta weapons Emp. Actually, they have 36' large blast template meltas too.

And tau seem incapable of producing melta bombs... if you buy the argument that a lack of an item means the race in question can't produce the item.
Throughout these discussions you consistently make the claim that a lack of said item from the imperium means they have no understanding or ability to produce that item while arguing the Tau not having an item is somehow by choice.

They have produced melta-bombs, just only giant ones.
Yo quote myself:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Actully, tau do have melta-bombs, it's just that they don't make grenade sized melta-bombs.

Honestly, I'm sure the the admech knows how EMP works (or at least those higher up the chain), but may not have a design. I'm sure that there was a human one some time in the past, but it probebly was:
a. Only used very rarely, and thus the design was lost..
b. Was to expensive and therefore rare, and thus the the design was lost.
or c. It was just plain lost.

That isn't a man portable melta bomb though. Similarly, the Imperium can make huge EMP bombs, we know that. But they don't.

My point is, it isn't an accurate argument to claim that because a group doesn't have an item they can't make it or don't understand it, especially when it is obvious they can do the things that item can do in other ways.

The Imperium could make EMP grenades if they wanted, but why do that when they have meltabombs.

The Tau could make a melta bomb if they wanted to, but why would they when they prefer EMP?

The things with the imperium is that they can make almost anything, but it's heresy to do so.

Someone likes Tau, Norton.

Norton your knowledge of the 40k universe is abyssmal. Even some of you Tau knowledge is wrong.

Either learn what you talking about or leave the discussion.

 PhillyT wrote:
That isn't a man portable melta bomb though. Similarly, the Imperium can make huge EMP bombs, we know that. But they don't.

My point is, it isn't an accurate argument to claim that because a group doesn't have an item they can't make it or don't understand it, especially when it is obvious they can do the things that item can do in other ways.

The Imperium could make EMP grenades if they wanted, but why do that when they have meltabombs.

The Tau could make a melta bomb if they wanted to, but why would they when they prefer EMP?

Meltabombs have a different purpose to EMP grenades, that's why. The Imperium clearly want EMP grenades and have made their own designs based on alien technology in the past, but for some reason they don't have their own EMP grenades. It's not just the lack of them that suggests the Imperium doesn't know how to make them, it's the lack of having their own despite wanting them and instead making use of captured versions. Nothing suggests the Tau want melta-bombs so not having them doesn't suggest they don't know how to make their own, while the Imperium wants EMP grenades yet uses alien versions instead of making their own. It does not definitely mean they can't make their own but there aren't really any reasons for them not to if they could.

Who wants EMP? Where has that been stated? A Xeno Inquisitor allowing Deathwatch under his command to use them in the FF RPG shouldn't be construed as a lack of ability to produce.

And there isn't really much of a difference, nor is it typical Imperial doctrine to even use them. The Imperium annihilates its enemy, for better or for worse, and the end goal of a melta bomb and an EMP grenade is to remove a target.

You do not need to understand the concept behind something to make it. You don't need to understand atomic theory or have even heard of the Periodic Table to have metallurgy.

Not understanding the concepts is part of the whole theme of the Imperium, including the AdMech.

It does not definitely mean they can't make their own but there aren't really any reasons for them not to if they could.

Because they are incredibly destructive to computers and computerized systems is why. The AdMech cannot afford to lose cogitators, especially ancient ones in recently-rediscovered worlds. Those cogitators may contain previously-lost human knowledge, and they cannot risk some yarbo Guardsman or Space Marine hucking an EMP grenade at it because there might be a couple cyber-Xenos behind it.

Alcibiades wrote:
You do not need to understand the concept behind something to make it.

I'm rather glad that this is not true; if it was, people could make nuclear weapons in their garages. I can explain how a nuke works, and most people can figure it out. The problem is how to initiate the chain reaction, if I knew that I'd likely have a well paying job rather than doing what I am right now.

Don't get me wrong. I wish it was, then I'd have my ACS suit by now.

I'm rather glad that this is not true; if it was, people could make nuclear weapons in their garages. I can explain how a nuke works, and most people can figure it out. The problem is how to initiate the chain reaction, if I knew that I'd likely have a well paying job rather than doing what I am right now.

Surely you've heard of a "dirty bomb" yes? Tactical nuclear devices can, basically, be made in your garage. You don't need to be a nuclear physicist to construct it.

 carldooley wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
You do not need to understand the concept behind something to make it.

I'm rather glad that this is not true; if it was, people could make nuclear weapons in their garages. I can explain how a nuke works, and most people can figure it out. The problem is how to initiate the chain reaction, if I knew that I'd likely have a well paying job rather than doing what I am right now.

Don't get me wrong. I wish it was, then I'd have my ACS suit by now.

But it is true. People were making alloys and compounds for thousands of years before anybody ever heard of an atomic bond, and making astronomical predictions long before Galileo.

Alcibiades wrote:
and making astronomical predictions long before Galileo.

and it should be noted that Galileo was wrong.
gah, sorry Alcibiades. (and what is the world coming to when people apologize on forums?)
not about his theory. That was ultimately proven correct, but his argument as to why it was true was incorrect.

 Psienesis wrote:

I'm rather glad that this is not true; if it was, people could make nuclear weapons in their garages. I can explain how a nuke works, and most people can figure it out. The problem is how to initiate the chain reaction, if I knew that I'd likely have a well paying job rather than doing what I am right now.

Surely you've heard of a "dirty bomb" yes? Tactical nuclear devices can, basically, be made in your garage. You don't need to be a nuclear physicist to construct it.

Well that isn't really a tactical nuke. If I recall, there is no nuclear reaction at all in a dirty bomb. Instead it spreads radioactive material using a conventional explosion. It is basically a terrorist weapon, not really a tactical nuke. The radiation sickens and kills far too slowly!

That's basically the point of a dirty bomb, yes. Then again, the cancer rates in Hiroshima and Nagasaki are still far above the norm for Japan, so even the real deals still have that effect.

However, the issue the US has had in recent years with "yellow cake" and "enriched uranium" in the Middle East is because they fear these countries having the ability to construct a nuclear device. It's not as difficult as it seems, as even bin Laden had access to the internet from a cave.

http://www.unmuseum.org/buildabomb.htm

Oh for sure, but I always assumed tactical nukes are still nuclear explosions in nature, producing forces far above even the largest conventional bombs, but well below the larger planet ending MIRVs. Sort of cool and horrifying at the same time!

Yes and, with the proper materials (available on the various black arms markets), the link I provided there provides you with a "how to". The Google search required to find said link took all of 5 seconds.

A suitcase nuke doesn't require a nuclear physicist. Just the materials and the ability to follow basic instructions.

 Psienesis wrote:
A suitcase nuke doesn't require a nuclear physicist. Just the materials and the ability to follow basic instructions.

Aye. Quite a lot of technology is like that these days. For example, the guy that really understands how a small nuke works. He doesn't need to know (and maybe doesn't) how the material for the shell is mined and processed, or where you get the lithium for the detonator. His nuke will work just fine without him knowing.

And to be fair, even the guys making the really cutting-edge stuff probably don't know how to make some of the tools and equipment they use for their special project. We're simply too far specialized already for any single man to understand or be able to create everything from scratch. We can still put together complicated devices from parts and materials provided by experts in other fields.

I have a question related to the thread. Can a Imperial Guardswoman capture a Xenos gun like a Pulse Rifle or will the nice Commissar have a word with her about how the Emperor frowns on such practices? I believe Armageddon Ork hunters make use of shootas but I'm not sure if that practice is widely tolerated.

It depends on the commissar. Some will be more lenient, others will kill imedetly.