I used to be much more active on this forum - going into the 40k proposed rules section, bumping that old "unique character's thread," talking like I actually had a lot of experience playing the game... that was fun.
Then Games Workshop released the Eldar and Tau codices. Those were awesome. New toys, new power to play with, the new hotness (basically).
Then Games Workshop released the Tyranid Codex. I was personally riding on that codex because my fiance wanted to play Tyranids (wanted being the key word). It was disheartening, to say the least, and I spent so much time trying to not only make a list that didn't suck but to re-write the codex to make it suck less.
Then I realized: what in the godless shart-castle am I doing? Let's see what I was doing...
1. Giving money to a company that not only gave zero gaks about me as a veteran player, but was actually contemptuous on me as a customer altogether.
2. Wasting personal time doing their job for them.
Say what you will about 40k. It has its moments. It can be fun. But Games-Workshop? Well, let's just say that if any other company in any other industry pulled the same gak that GW pulls on an annual basis, that company would go out of business. Yet GW plugs along, failing forward year after year, limping along like a homeless dude who is essentially a cornucopia of bad decisions.
Then GW released a few more codices, the new IG, Orks, Grey Knights, and now Dark Eldar. I have a Dark Eldar army in my basement, and I was wondering what GW did with them, since they were falling behind in the newer editions. Let's just say that if they were free-falling before, now someone has actively worked to make them fall faster. It's not disappointing or angering anymore. It's simply sad.
And then I saw a thread where someone finally began to understand that GW was a terrible company. I chuckled for a second. Enlightenment is upon them.
Don't worry, someone will be along shortly to explain how, somehow, your opinions are wrong, and, furthermore, GW is doing fine despite all evidence to the contrary.
O basically quit 40k when 7th ed came out, read 1/2 the rules and said "deep six it". I have one last tournament to go to (pre paid before 7th ed release) if my last army does not sell on ebay by then. I figure I concede to my opponent and ask he/she to play a friendly game. They will get the win after all.
Robisagg wrote: One thing I don't get: how people can quit before actually playing 7th edition games? Me and my entire club are still having loads of fun with it.
Because people want different things.
Your fun isn't the same as my fun but both our ideas of fun are valid. 7th is a lot of things to a lot of people.
All the fun in 40k 7th edition, is from the commitment of the players to have fun no matter what.
And spending all their time and energy finding like minded people who can agree to interpret and 'fix' the rules in the same way as them.
Any rule set can be fun if you are prepared to put this amount of effort into it!
If you want rules for a war game that provides enough game balance for enjoyable pick up games , then 40k simply is not that game.
I really don't get this "7th edition makes me quit" -thing which some people have going on. 7th edition is basically 6th edition with changed Psychic rules. Surely changing Psychic powers (arguably for the better) is not going to make anyone quit? I mean I understand if people had already quit because of 6th edition since that had lot more changes, or they quit because they don't like the codecies, or prices.
Backfire wrote: I really don't get this "7th edition makes me quit" -thing which some people have going on. 7th edition is basically 6th edition with changed Psychic rules. Surely changing Psychic powers (arguably for the better) is not going to make anyone quit? I mean I understand if people had already quit because of 6th edition since that had lot more changes, or they quit because they don't like the codecies, or prices.
Building off of that- I really like the psychic phase. It streamlines all powers into one phase, and to benefit you have to build your army around it. Those that can't counter it make it up via other options.
And isn't the psychic phase a flawed magic phase from an old WHFB edition? You're right that it's arguable. That's the problem I've been talking about - it's like there's a refusal to understand how 40K's idiosyncracies might be flawed, and how that might turn people off.
well I'd argue that Psychic phase is unarguable!....what is certainly not unarguable is that the old Psychic powers system became almost unplayable during 6th edition with huge prevalence of powerful Space wizards everywhere, and one army (Daemons) where everything they did was psychic. I just don't understand how anyone can look back at that with sense of nostalgia. It's like some people missing 5th edition Wound Allocation.
I greatly miss 5th ed wound allocation. Yes people could abuse it, but that is a quick fix.
6th/7th is ridiculous, it's a company or small army scale game but it's using mechanics from a 10 man per side skirmish game. Removing from the front slows the game down a ton, and there are still wound allocation shenanigans with one guy tanking 20 hits then throwing a mook in front of the one plasma shot coming his way.
Robisagg wrote: One thing I don't get: how people can quit before actually playing 7th edition games? Me and my entire club are still having loads of fun with it.
Because people can read the rules, see the direction the game is going (large-scale games with rules meant for smaller scale) and say "Not for me"? The fact you and your club are having fun with it is great, but for a lot of people the game isn't the kind of game that they want.
For me personally I refuse to pay such high amounts for figures that I need a lot of and then play a game where my entire enjoyment hinges on whether my opponent has a similar mindset and playstyle to my own, a game that thinks that randomized everything is fun and exciting, and on top of that a game where the rules are so unbalanced that someone can inadvertently have a superpowered army if the units they think are cool happen to also be the good units, and someone else can have an army that's almost literally garbage if the units they like are the weaker units. And that's not even getting into how GW thinks of and treats its customers, with almost zero feedback, constantly making things Limited Edition when they shouldn't be just to keep up the facade that this is some exclusive Reform Club for gamers, and how they crap on independent retailers.
jonolikespie wrote: I greatly miss 5th ed wound allocation. Yes people could abuse it, but that is a quick fix.
6th/7th is ridiculous, it's a company or small army scale game but it's using mechanics from a 10 man per side skirmish game. Removing from the front slows the game down a ton, and there are still wound allocation shenanigans with one guy tanking 20 hits then throwing a mook in front of the one plasma shot coming his way.
My experience is complete opposite - for most part 6th and 7th edition games flow faster than 5th edition, wound allocation is simpler, pre-measuring speeds things up, there is less of that obnoxious 4+ cover everywhere...
Now, setting up a game, that is much slower in 6th and 7th and constant source of annoyance.
As for randomness, I get that people are annoyed about all the tables etc (I sure am) but to claim that they make the end result much more random is silly, as the tables tend to be mostly inconsequental. 5th edition was actually more random: unreliable vehicle damage had a huge impact to the game.
Backfire wrote: I really don't get this "7th edition makes me quit" -thing which some people have going on. 7th edition is basically 6th edition with changed Psychic rules. Surely changing Psychic powers (arguably for the better) is not going to make anyone quit? I mean I understand if people had already quit because of 6th edition since that had lot more changes, or they quit because they don't like the codecies, or prices.
Valid question.
There were several things that people disliked about 6th, mainly the direction of bloated rules, FOC shennanigans and shoving things in the game that didn't belong there. (Mostly fliers and super heavies.) When 7th came out, we saw that they had done little to actually improve the game and went further in the direction we did not like. Unbound and Lords of War in the normal game. It became more of the kind of game we didn't want to play.
There are a lot of specifics, but that's the general idea.
Backfire wrote: I really don't get this "7th edition makes me quit" -thing which some people have going on. 7th edition is basically 6th edition with changed Psychic rules. Surely changing Psychic powers (arguably for the better) is not going to make anyone quit? I mean I understand if people had already quit because of 6th edition since that had lot more changes, or they quit because they don't like the codecies, or prices.
You're right, but I know a number of people that were willing to "hang in there" for one edition but when 7th came out and they realized that GW had doubled down on everything that they didn't like, then they quit. So they actually quit because of all the changes that 6th edition brought, but they only quit after 7th came out.
McNinja wrote: And then I saw a thread where someone finally began to understand that GW was a terrible company
GW isn't a "bad company". It's just a company like any other, it's run the way management sees fit to run it.
Management is the problem, management at GW is terrible.
GW needs new management. Unfortunately the current management has made it damn near impossible for anyone at GW to hire the very people they need to make the changes necessary.
They seem more interested in hiring more "yes men" and staff that aren't a "threat" to current management.
Then Games Workshop released the Tyranid Codex. I was personally riding on that codex because my fiance wanted to play Tyranids (wanted being the key word). It was disheartening, to say the least, and I spent so much time trying to not only make a list that didn't suck but to re-write the codex to make it suck less.
GW already did this. It's called Skyblight and Living Artillery.
And just a quick reminder, everyone 'quit' when 8th fantasy came out too.
I was bitter about 7th and the IG codex, but my Dark Eldar codex arrived last night and now I am livid. With all of the rumors and leaks posted last week I somehow missed that harlequins had been removed from the codex. The missing HQ's I could tolerate. The real world reasoning behind that decision is annoying but at least some-what understandable (using GW logic). The continued glass-bottom-boating of wyches was majorly disappointing and made me hostile to the new codex, but I was still willing to give it a chance to see if it was fun. But now I learned they have gone and removed my clowns. Feth you, GW! The clowns were the straw that broke this camel's back. My army has so many gaps now that it is unrecognizable to me. Can I still play the army? Sure. I have almost all of the army options from the previous codex painted and ready to go, but my favorite units, the ones I gravitated to when the 5th edition codex came out and that I built my army around (harlequins and wyches), well they are gone or so difficult to use that playing with them is an exercise in masochism.
I have no doubt that the clowns will get their own supplement, like Inquisition or Legion of the Damned, and GW will expect me to shell out more money for content that just a week ago was provided in my codex.
I am not using this codex, and I am not going to pick up any new items that are released. This is just stupid. I honestly can't justify the rigmarole of trying to cobble together an army when GW insists on this ridiculous multi-book format that divides content and strings it out over two or more books.
So I am done. I'll play what I have, and I'll play previous editions, but I am fething finished with the current GW model.
Robisagg wrote:One thing I don't get: how people can quit before actually playing 7th edition games? Me and my entire club are still having loads of fun with it.
Backfire wrote:I really don't get this "7th edition makes me quit" -thing which some people have going on. 7th edition is basically 6th edition with changed Psychic rules. Surely changing Psychic powers (arguably for the better) is not going to make anyone quit? I mean I understand if people had already quit because of 6th edition since that had lot more changes, or they quit because they don't like the codecies, or prices.
I think what you guys are missing is that it's not only about the difference in gameplay between 6th and 7th. As well as reports of gameplay from trusted sources, there are alot of other factors (though many are $ related) that make folks like me and others quit before trying 7th including:
-Price to "re-up" A codex and the rules is about $120 that you have to drop Just to be able to try 7th. More if you have multiple armies.
-Deciding to pursue other games.
-Not liking 6th edition and assuming that 7th wouldn't be much different.
-Not being pleased with the changing flavor of fluff or miniatures.
-Not wanting to continue paying increasing prices for miniatures.
Basically, a change of editions is a great chance to get out. If you're feeling disenchanted, the change of editions is a sort of road sign that your current rulebooks have taken you as far as you can go and if you want out, now is the time to disembark.
Any rule set can be fun if you are prepared to put this amount of effort into it!
So true. I have an old rules set called "Fairy Meat." The rules are all over the place- there's fluff in the rules section and rules in the fluff section, and at least one or two rules that makes no sense to anyone ever. And that's not touching on the balance.
Any rule set can be fun if you are prepared to put this amount of effort into it!
So true. I have an old rules set called "Fairy Meat." The rules are all over the place- there's fluff in the rules section and rules in the fluff section, and at least one or two rules that makes no sense to anyone ever. And that's not touching on the balance.
But the game is tons of fun with the right group.
Fair Meat! Wow, that's a blast from the turn of the millennium. 1/1 scale gaming without LARPing! A buddy of mine has a batch of those figs that he swears will be used someday. I think the figs are OOP, but the rules are still available here: http://www.kenzerco.com/index.php?cPath=34_63
I halfway agree that effort can equal fun, but there's so many great rulesets out there, should you really have to beat yourself to death to make a bad one work?
I admit that I've even had a good time playing the vintage monstrosity Tractics with it's pages upon pages of charts, but that was with someone who knew the rules from 20 years of experience. I have a hard time imagining myself ever enjoying those rules without his guidance. I did put in the effort necessary to have fun with 40k for many years, but when I finally got fed up with the price raises and such it didn't take me long to find much better rulesets that I enjoyed for much less cash with much less effort.
In regards to 7th made me quit... I haven't Quit, but I also haven't picked up 7th.
This is what I need if I want to play 7th edition:
1. The core rulebook
2. The new Ork codex
3. Time to learn the new rules for the game
4. Time to inventory 20-40 thousand points of ork models in regards to the new codex.
5. Figure out which units and weapon options I currently don't have and will need for basic builds, like Gorkanauts, HQs with different gear, Buzzsaw MANZ and so on.
So I am looking at 150$ in rules, 300$ in models and ooodles of downtime learning new rules and painting models.
Will I do it? Maybe... Right now I have other games which are fulfilling my hobby and gaming time because a 7 year hiatus for ork rules pretty much left me with a 'completed' army 4 years ago.
Right now the effort is more of a barrier than the money, and the money is a barrier. So I am taking a break and gonna go play with my D&D and board game crew.
That is the harsh reality of letting a codex languish for so long. Even the most die-hard fans simply 'had nothing to build for orks' for so long that I moved on.
nkelsch wrote: In regards to 7th made me quit... I haven't Quit, but I also haven't picked up 7th.
This is what I need if I want to play 7th edition:
1. The core rulebook
2. The new Ork codex
3. Time to learn the new rules for the game
4. Time to inventory 20-40 thousand points of ork models in regards to the new codex.
5. Figure out which units and weapon options I currently don't have and will need for basic builds, like Gorkanauts, HQs with different gear, Buzzsaw MANZ and so on.
So I am looking at 150$ in rules, 300$ in models and ooodles of downtime learning new rules and painting models.
Will I do it? Maybe... Right now I have other games which are fulfilling my hobby and gaming time because a 7 year hiatus for ork rules pretty much left me with a 'completed' army 4 years ago.
Right now the effort is more of a barrier than the money, and the money is a barrier. So I am taking a break and gonna go play with my D&D and board game crew.
That is the harsh reality of letting a codex languish for so long. Even the most die-hard fans simply 'had nothing to build for orks' for so long that I moved on.
As a former SOB player, I feel your pain on that one.
I think what you guys are missing is that it's not only about the difference in gameplay between 6th and 7th. As well as reports of gameplay from trusted sources, there are alot of other factors (though many are $ related) that make folks like me and others quit before trying 7th including:
-Price to "re-up" A codex and the rules is about $120 that you have to drop Just to be able to try 7th. More if you have multiple armies.
-Deciding to pursue other games.
-Not liking 6th edition and assuming that 7th wouldn't be much different.
-Not being pleased with the changing flavor of fluff or miniatures.
-Not wanting to continue paying increasing prices for miniatures.
Basically, a change of editions is a great chance to get out. If you're feeling disenchanted, the change of editions is a sort of road sign that your current rulebooks have taken you as far as you can go and if you want out, now is the time to disembark.
Well yeah, I get *that*. I am the only one from my gaming group who has bought 7th edition rulebook (we still play, we just cycle the rulebook) and even I wouldn't have done it if I had bought the BRB in 6th edition (I only had the DV mini-rulebook). I think 7th is an improvement over 6th, particularly the Psychic Phase and Ally Matrix, however it does annoy me that they didn't go further and remove other problems, most notably too many special rules and annoying mission setup with too many steps and rolls before you actually get to the game. So yeah, 7th is a missed opportunity and reeks of a cash-grab, however objectively, it's a better game now. Whereas with 6th vs 5th it goes down to taste and I can totally see why some people would hate the 6th over 5th or 4th.
I am the only one from my gaming group who has bought 7th edition rulebook (we still play, we just cycle the rulebook) and even I wouldn't have done it if I had bought the BRB in 6th edition (I only had the DV mini-rulebook). I think 7th is an improvement over 6th, particularly the Psychic Phase and Ally Matrix, however it does annoy me that they didn't go further and remove other problems, most notably too many special rules and annoying mission setup with too many steps and rolls before you actually get to the game. So yeah, 7th is a missed opportunity and reeks of a cash-grab, however objectively, it's a better game now. Whereas with 6th vs 5th it goes down to taste and I can totally see why some people would hate the 6th over 5th or 4th.
I think you hit on a very good point and one that I missed and that is just simple ambivalence. When a new ruleset comes out that fixes somethings, but doesn't seem to fix enough it will bring out alot of feelings of "Meh". This is even more the case if it is perceived as a cash grab and comes in a long line of rules updates that made the same kind of almost-but-not-quite changes.
Unforunately "meh"-flavored ambivalence isn't the kind of response that will get someone to go out and buy an $80 rulebook.
And just a quick reminder, everyone 'quit' when 8th fantasy came out too.
No need to remind me. I saw tourney's go from 200 people in 7th to 20 in 8th.
The biggest tourney in the state (probably the country, I should check that) has stopped running since 8th because there was no point in their minds.
And just a quick reminder, everyone 'quit' when 8th fantasy came out too.
No need to remind me. I saw tourney's go from 200 people in 7th to 20 in 8th. The biggest tourney in the state (probably the country, I should check that) has stopped running since 8th because there was no point in their minds.
Yeah, if I recall everyone (okay, not LITERALLY everyone) did quit 8th edition WHFB, hence sales have been horrendous (the game having dropped out of the top 5 on the IVC2...or whatever that survey is called).
I mean, sales for WHFB have never compared to even Space Marines, but the drop-off has been significant enough for GW to be making some serious revamps with the game.
Give me 5th edition, plus 7ths vehicle rules and psychics (without the daemonic bollocks) and we're golden.
The rest just seems like pointless rearranging and bloat. Given how long it takes to set up this game and move a horde army in it, bloat was the last thing we needed.
nkelsch wrote: In regards to 7th made me quit... I haven't Quit, but I also haven't picked up 7th.
This is what I need if I want to play 7th edition:
1. The core rulebook
2. The new Ork codex
3. Time to learn the new rules for the game
4. Time to inventory 20-40 thousand points of ork models in regards to the new codex.
5. Figure out which units and weapon options I currently don't have and will need for basic builds, like Gorkanauts, HQs with different gear, Buzzsaw MANZ and so on.
So I am looking at 150$ in rules, 300$ in models and ooodles of downtime learning new rules and painting models.
Will I do it? Maybe... Right now I have other games which are fulfilling my hobby and gaming time because a 7 year hiatus for ork rules pretty much left me with a 'completed' army 4 years ago.
Right now the effort is more of a barrier than the money, and the money is a barrier. So I am taking a break and gonna go play with my D&D and board game crew.
That is the harsh reality of letting a codex languish for so long. Even the most die-hard fans simply 'had nothing to build for orks' for so long that I moved on.
For me I was not a fan of 6th , allies , flyers, etc. As a tyranid player I was not happy with the poor quality 5th ed dex - but I'm playing 6th nervously awaiting the 6th ed nid dex. When it comes out another poor product obviously phoned in - even more flavour removed from the dex and so many easy problems not dealt with. And to top it off dataslates released at the same time so not only do I have to pay an absurd price for a poor nid dex if I want to try to make a competitive army I practically need to buy datalsates - an extra money grab. Then not long after 7th ed is released that messes up a few things again.
So the 6th ed nid dex stopped me from playing (had already spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars to try to make nids work with the 5th ed dex without tervigons -hated them) and 7th ed put the nails in the coffin. If I want to play nids I need to buy (I did buy the 6th ed nid dex $60):
- dataslates $86 to get them all
- 7th ed BRB $120
- psychic cards $7
- for models that I may need as so many of my other models are lousy (raveners, trygons, etc) crone $95ea, exocrine $88, T-fex $69
- on top of this because the nid dex is so lousy FW models are needed which means I need the FW rules, malanthrope, possibly dima, barbed hierodule or stone crusher fex.
It means I have to spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars to try to have a decent army (and shelve lots of my models), and since this is GW, this new army could easily be messed up again very soon with 8th edition or a 7th ed nid dex. This type of nonsense has put more then me in a position of not wanting to play/support GW any longer.
Yeah, $100 for the rulebook's put me right off of 7th. I'm treating it as a reason to spend 2-3 years just finishing up my army (hah!) while I wait to see what 8th brings. Cannot justify the cost of the rules every 2 years.
And just a quick reminder, everyone 'quit' when 8th fantasy came out too.
"Everyone" DID quit when 8th edition Fantasy came out. We used to have 40+ people tournaments in 6th / 7th edition. Now? The organizers are happy if they get the 4 people minimum to run a tournament and most months they can't even get that.
And just a quick reminder, everyone 'quit' when 8th fantasy came out too.
"Everyone" DID quit when 8th edition Fantasy came out. We used to have 40+ people tournaments in 6th / 7th edition. Now? The organizers are happy if they get the 4 people minimum to run a tournament and most months they can't even get that.
So... not everyone quit?
I'm sorry, but if there's still people playing, no matter how few, not everybody quit.
And just a quick reminder, everyone 'quit' when 8th fantasy came out too.
"Everyone" DID quit when 8th edition Fantasy came out. We used to have 40+ people tournaments in 6th / 7th edition. Now? The organizers are happy if they get the 4 people minimum to run a tournament and most months they can't even get that.
So... not everyone quit?
I'm sorry, but if there's still people playing, no matter how few, not everybody quit.
Hence the quotation marks around the word everyone, because when people state that everyone did something very rarely do they literally mean everyone.
And just a quick reminder, everyone 'quit' when 8th fantasy came out too.
"Everyone" DID quit when 8th edition Fantasy came out. We used to have 40+ people tournaments in 6th / 7th edition. Now? The organizers are happy if they get the 4 people minimum to run a tournament and most months they can't even get that.
So... not everyone quit?
I'm sorry, but if there's still people playing, no matter how few, not everybody quit.
Yeah, that's my point. When 8th came out every thread was full of people crying about it and threatening to quit. But in my area, you have to FIGHT to get into a fantasy tournament before the window closes because it's so popular.
I guess maybe things are worse in the states, but in Canada, fantasy is still super popular - and I believe in Europe too.
OldSkoolGoff wrote: But in my area, you have to FIGHT to get into a fantasy tournament before the window closes because it's so popular.
I don't know if your area is enough to sustain GW, though. In my area the GW shop still gets attention, but then it's the only one in Northern Ireland, and one of two on this here island. There have been a few indy shops too, and I think at least one of those that I've seen is still going. In none of them have I seen more than a token representation of GW on the shelves, and the focus is usually on other games. In three current clubs I've visited, only one has had a big 40K presence, and it was losing a bit of ground to FoW and Malifaux. That was a while ago. I've no idea what effect 7th has had on them, if any.
I guess maybe things are worse in the states, but in Canada, fantasy is still super popular - and I believe in Europe too.
I guess maybe things are worse in the states, but in Canada, fantasy is still super popular - and I believe in Europe too.
Look at my flag, I'm in Europe, there are currently less than 10% of the number of WHFB players as there used to be during 6th / 7th. WHFB over here is but a shadow of what it once was.
WHFB in practical terms, doesn't exist in my area. I've never seen a game played and when I bought a fantasy figure (for 40k conversion) the shop keeper was surprised.
OldSkoolGoff wrote: And just a quick reminder, everyone 'quit' when 8th fantasy came out too.
YMMV. In my aera, if you want to play a game, you'd better play Mordheim or Blood Bowl than WHFB, because it's pretty much dead.
In the US, Warmachines, Hordes, and at least one of the "Star [...] Wing" games,are in the top 5. WHFB isn't. Can't remember if it's Star Wars or Star Trek, seems to change every year, both are probably ahead of WHFB anyway.
Lagging behind both Warmachine and Hordes means that the growth of your game is at least twice smaller than the WarmaHordes system. But yeah, sure, WHFB's just fine.
MWHistorian wrote: WHFB in practical terms, doesn't exist in my area. I've never seen a game played and when I bought a fantasy figure (for 40k conversion) the shop keeper was surprised.
I actually have a small FLGS nearby with WHFB going on, and that store actually has like no 40k and only 3 people who play Warmachine (it's a small store, but still). Honestly I'd like to play Fantasy as I always liked it, but not with those prices; I thought 40k was but but jeez WHFB really takes the mickey with how they rip you off. I'll play Kings of War instead when I get the time to look into it.
I guess it depends on the area you live in the staes with WHFB. My older brother lives in Cleavland, Ohio and gets a game in every week. But in my area your lucky to get a game of WHFB in once a year. 40k in my area has also taken a back seat to warmachine and xwing. But I live in a small population area outside the city of youngstown, Ohio and new castle, PA. A shop in pittsburgh that ran 40k tournaments once a month is now going to host tournaments once every three months. During 6th edition and 5th edition of 40k, the tournaments I attended at the shop in Pittsburgh had over 40 people entered in the tournaments. Now like I said I live 45 minutes from the shop in Pittsburgh so I really don't know what's going on there, I just know the tournament are not going well.
The irony is that I keep thinking to play 40k, but the state of the rules and the price to get a good army (and that's with some stuff left over!) just turns me off completely because while I don't like a lot of stuff about it, Warmachine just feels like such a better game. I know I could get games, I know there's a healthy community at the largest game store in my area, just the game doesn't seem like it's worth considering anymore. I still like the fluff and the lore (for the most part) but everything is a totally different direction to what I want out of a game.
It's almost like i want to play 40k but GW's nonsense is making me not want to bother because it's an uphill struggle to get back into it.
SBG wrote: Cannot justify the cost of the rules every 2 years.
I know a lot of people- even people who were happy to see the end of 6th- get worried that GW was going to start up a model of bringing out a new edition every two years (instead of four). No one wants a new edition every two years. Especially not with the core rulebooks getting so expensive, and the necessary additions you need these days.
However, it seems that this was not a financial win for Games Workshop. Profits and sales are down by quite a bit (in the statement to investors, Tom Kirby made absolutely no mention of the new edition of 40k- he didn't want to let them know that their company performed poorly in a year when their flagship product was released).
So... if they're looking at the numbers, they might have noticed that it wasn't a good idea. But then again, you never know what GW will learn at the end of the day.
SBG wrote: Cannot justify the cost of the rules every 2 years.
I know a lot of people- even people who were happy to see the end of 6th- get worried that GW was going to start up a model of bringing out a new edition every two years (instead of four). No one wants a new edition every two years. Especially not with the core rulebooks getting so expensive, and the necessary additions you need these days.
However, it seems that this was not a financial win for Games Workshop. Profits and sales are down by quite a bit (in the statement to investors, Tom Kirby made absolutely no mention of the new edition of 40k- he didn't want to let them know that their company performed poorly in a year when their flagship product was released).
So... if they're looking at the numbers, they might have noticed that it wasn't a good idea. But then again, you never know what GW will learn at the end of the day.
Heck, I don't know what others think, but for me every 4 years is too soon.
SBG wrote: Cannot justify the cost of the rules every 2 years.
I know a lot of people- even people who were happy to see the end of 6th- get worried that GW was going to start up a model of bringing out a new edition every two years (instead of four). No one wants a new edition every two years. Especially not with the core rulebooks getting so expensive, and the necessary additions you need these days.
However, it seems that this was not a financial win for Games Workshop. Profits and sales are down by quite a bit (in the statement to investors, Tom Kirby made absolutely no mention of the new edition of 40k- he didn't want to let them know that their company performed poorly in a year when their flagship product was released).
So... if they're looking at the numbers, they might have noticed that it wasn't a good idea. But then again, you never know what GW will learn at the end of the day.
Heck, I don't know what others think, but for me every 4 years is too soon.
I think part of the issue is that they aren't really changing the rules. They change enough to invalidate some armies (whether that's deliberate or not is up to debate) and change the meta so assault is good and shooting sucks or vice versa or add more random crap, and pass it off as a new edition when in the old days it would have been a Chapter Approved article in White Dwarf (like the I think pre-4th edition assault rules)
And this is what is so sad for many 40K players. Many of us wanted to play 40K. We enjoy the universe/fluff and/or models, but GW has made the rules so poorly, increased prices so insanely, forced the purchase of many more rules/models to keep playing your army, failed to fix easy issues (no serious errata) and their obvious lack of respect towards customers is putting them in a downward spiral.
It is sad because the game has so much potential and with effort in the rules for internal and external balance and dropping prices/stop the price gouging GW would be much more solid IMO - then maybe I would recommend the game but I will warn people away today.
GW does seem to want to go down and their practices encourage their demise.
And just a quick reminder, everyone 'quit' when 8th fantasy came out too.
"Everyone" DID quit when 8th edition Fantasy came out. We used to have 40+ people tournaments in 6th / 7th edition. Now? The organizers are happy if they get the 4 people minimum to run a tournament and most months they can't even get that.
So... not everyone quit?
I'm sorry, but if there's still people playing, no matter how few, not everybody quit.
Yeah, that's my point. When 8th came out every thread was full of people crying about it and threatening to quit. But in my area, you have to FIGHT to get into a fantasy tournament before the window closes because it's so popular.
I guess maybe things are worse in the states, but in Canada, fantasy is still super popular - and I believe in Europe too.
I hate to tell you this, but being ecstatic that 'only' 75% to 90% have quit does not paint a rosy picture.
'Everyone' was being used in a hyperbolic fashion, yes, but it remains fact - documentable fact - that WHFB has haemorrhaged a lot of players in much of the world.
Locally, Warhammer 8th edition was the nicest thing that GW could have done for Kings of War.
People are still using their old GW miniatures, but are no longer playing a GW game with them - they are playing Kings of War, and soon might be playing Warthrone as well.
Most of the new miniatures being bought are also not GW - I am seeing Avatars of War, Reaper Miniatures, Mantic, Gamezone, and a bunch of Perry (including my own WotR from Perry, used for Kingdoms of Men)... but not a lot of new GW miniatures.
And this is in spite of some people liking many of those new GW miniatures.
Sometimes it is the price that puts people off, but a surprising number of folks just do not want their money going to GW anymore - and they are willing to spend more for that privilege. (There is a massive Dark Elf... I mean Twilight Kin... army in the works that uses no GW minis at all, but that has miniatures from Reaper, Avatars of War, Gamezone, and Mantic.... Most of the minis cost more than their GW counterparts, not less.)
I am pretty sure that you thought that you were making a telling strike with your 'Everyone' comment- but given that Warhammer Fantasy is losing so many players... I do not think that the strike hit true.
Ventus wrote: And this is what is so sad for many 40K players. Many of us wanted to play 40K. We enjoy the universe/fluff and/or models, but GW has made the rules so poorly, increased prices so insanely, forced the purchase of many more rules/models to keep playing your army, fail to fix easy issues (no serious errata) and their obvious lack of respect towards customers is putting them in a spiral downward.
It is sad because the game has so much potential and with effort in the rules for internal and external balance and dropping prices/stop the price gouging GW would be more solid IMO - then maybe I would recommend the game but I will warn people away.
GW does seem to want to go down and their practices seem to encourage their demise.
When Pierre go down he go down in flames!
Exactly. Story time!
I know for a fact the 40k-centric FLGS is starting a slow grow league this weekend. I thought about joining because I have had a Tau Megaforce since 2006/2007. I thought of a fluffy but effective list (I'd need to buy another Devilfish). I even put some of it together. Don't ask how I have the rulebook and codex. Then I started to look at some things I would want to add to expand (the league is going to 2000 points over 12 weeks). The price started to rise exponentially, and I'd still have no idea if I even like the game anymore since I last played circa 2002. On top of that, I don't really know the people at the store and the few times I've gone to observe they weren't very friendly and came off as being drunk on the GW kool-aid. On top of that 40k night is Thursday night and runs late, and I'm tired from work and work weekdays.
On the other hand, a small game shop has Warmachine that's closer and has grown exponentially, almost doubled in players since I started frequenting there. They're all friendly, they all have fun, and while yes I have to spend a nice chunk of money on units, it's not nearly as much as for 40k and I feel like I'm getting more value for my money. They want to grow the community. I even applied to be a Press Ganger for Privateer Press to help them out.
Couple that with better rules, better support and a better game, and I don't see a reason other than nostalgia to play 40k again even though I consider it sometimes. The Warmachine community seems to have a lot more fun and be more enjoyable.
On the other hand, a small game shop has Warmachine that's closer and has grown exponentially, almost doubled in players since I started frequenting there. They're all friendly, they all have fun, and while yes I have to spend a nice chunk of money on units, it's not nearly as much as for 40k and I feel like I'm getting more value for my money.
Couple that with better rules, better support and a better game, and I don't see a reason other than nostalgia to play 40k again even though I consider it sometimes. The Warmachine community seems to have a lot more fun and be more enjoyable.
That is it exactly. If I want to buy a model for 40K - do I like the model and does it have all the necessary wargear/biomorphs (which doesn't always happen)? I have to look at it as what is the value for the high cost because I also expect to be able to use it and have the model have decent rules - not for only 2 years or 6 months. I have many many wargames and the ones that were well done are still good games today, some from over 30 years ago. When I look at 40K I have to spend far more money than any other tabletop game and then worry that the unit's rules will be messed up with the next dex and/or next BRB edition with little expectation that GW will put serious effort into errata to try to ensure that all my models that I spent so much money on will still be usable.
GW purchases are a sink hole.
We all understand that with a living game changes will occur with a new edition but with serious effort the rules can still be good and dexes properly updated - not perfect but they should be pretty darn good for the high cost. By GW s practices they don't deserve to survive as a company.
I think what bugs me the most about the changes is they seem done on purpose so you can't keep what you have. That's complete bullgak no matter what, and stinks of ripping people off deliberately. A good company tries to have as little shakeup as possible between editions so people can use what they've already got, but not GW who seems to go with the approach of "If we don't invalidate units or do a 180 on the meta, people might not buy more things".
Ventus wrote: And this is what is so sad for many 40K players. Many of us wanted to play 40K. We enjoy the universe/fluff and/or models, but GW has made the rules so poorly, increased prices so insanely, forced the purchase of many more rules/models to keep playing your army, failed to fix easy issues (no serious errata) and their obvious lack of respect towards customers is putting them in a downward spiral.
I agree. Even though I haven't bought a new GW product in years, this year I reread the Ravenor and Eisenhorn novels, bought some more 90's era white dwarfs and picked up some more eldar stuff. Despite the changes, I still like the 40k setting and would have liked to be able to play it. But I've been priced out and I don't see anything coming down the pike that would change that.
It's not just myself either. All but 1 or two of our club regulars and semi-regulars (about 10 of us) were 40k players at one time and a few were until recently. Most drifted away more than 5 years ago but even the player who was the most gung-ho and had the most disposable income to spend on 40k has decided to not buy 7th edition, leaving us with only 1 semi-reglar attender who plays anymore. All these folks are still gamers, they just no longer play 40k.
Backfire wrote: I really don't get this "7th edition makes me quit" -thing which some people have going on. 7th edition is basically 6th edition with changed Psychic rules. Surely changing Psychic powers (arguably for the better) is not going to make anyone quit? I mean I understand if people had already quit because of 6th edition since that had lot more changes, or they quit because they don't like the codecies, or prices.
Wargaming forums just have more kneejerking whiners than average.
Backfire wrote: I really don't get this "7th edition makes me quit" -thing which some people have going on. 7th edition is basically 6th edition with changed Psychic rules. Surely changing Psychic powers (arguably for the better) is not going to make anyone quit? I mean I understand if people had already quit because of 6th edition since that had lot more changes, or they quit because they don't like the codecies, or prices.
40K forums just have more kneejerking whiners than average.
Fixed that for you. This isn't a wargaming problem, it's a wholly GW/40k problem. Other games don't have this problem.
Haha, same kind of whining happens on WARMACHINE/HORDES forums all the time. Here´s screenshots included in a video of one debacle from a while ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6nUC8hel8Q
Sorry to burst your bubble, but people whine about everything and for some reason wargaming communities are especially prevalent when it comes to whining, kneejerking, rising to the barricades and general crying out. Just the way it is, whether you accept it or not that is still the case and nothing you say will change that. You can look at any miniaturegaming forum ( national or international ) and the sub-forum of any game, and there will be kneejerking, whining, threatening not to buy, selling miniatures ( as included in that video. )
Sorry, but you "fixed" fiction. Found these threads in 2 minutes from PP forums.:
And if you´re still rejecting reality and replacing it with your own, go browse more forums and you´ll see that whining and kneejerking happens everywhere, regarding any game, end of story.
Are you actually reading those threads, or just trolling for links? Because I've read both threads and it's nowhere near the level of vehemence that you see towards GW. The second thread is sarcasm by the way because the change in question (cannot cast spells on a unit that has models out of formation) had a lot of teeth gnashing as being a major nerf since it stopped formation shenanigans (it was a good change BTW as people were abusing it).
So try again. It's not "other games don't have people who complain" it's that only GW/40k has this divide between players and the level of anger at a company which, honestly, is pretty pathetic as far as companies go.
WayneTheGame wrote: Are you actually reading those threads, or just trolling for links? Because I've read both threads and it's nowhere near the level of vehemence that you see towards GW. The second is sarcasm by the way because the change in question (cannot cast spells on a unit that has models out of formation) had a lot of teeth gnashing as being a major nerf since it stopped formation shenanigans (it was a good change BTW as people were abusing it)
Nice attempt at a save, did you look at the video? The screenshots in that video alone prove you´re wrong. And I did say, go browse more. If you want, I can link you 10 more whiny threads from an alternative games forum. But we both already know that you know it happens, everywhere, and it won´t take me more than 15 minutes to find those threads. C´mon, get real.
I said kneejerking and whining happens everywhere, and it does. You said "This isn't a wargaming problem, it's a wholly GW/40k problem. Other games don't have this problem." - and you´re wrong. Just admit it already, geez.
It happens, everywhere, period. I like how you edited your post after obviously reading mine. You counterargumented solely on my argument, which is that other forums also have kneejerking whiners - I proved you wrong - and now you claim you are talking about a different thing ( hate for a company etc, which is not the same as whiners on a forum. ) Why even counterargument on my statement, when you knew it was true and indirectly already admitted it is?
But why do I even ask when I already know the answer; just because you felt the need to resist for whatever reason while knowing what I say is true to beginwith.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but people whine about everything and for some reason wargaming communities are especially prevalent when it comes to whining, kneejerking, rising to the barricades and general crying out. Just the way it is, whether you accept it or not that is still the case and nothing you say will change that. You can look at any miniaturegaming forum ( national or international ) and the sub-forum of any game, and there will be kneejerking, whining, threatening not to buy, selling miniatures ( as included in that video. )
Sorry, but you "fixed" fiction. Found these threads in 2 minutes from PP forums.:
And if you´re still rejecting reality and replacing it with your own, go browse more forums and you´ll see that whining and kneejerking happens everywhere, regarding any game, end of story.
You clearly didn't actually read these threads. They're quite civil and no where near the anger, resentment and frustration from 40k forums. In fact, when they bring up a bad example they're usually "This is almost 40k level of bad." I'd use these same posts as examples of how better it is in warmachine.
And Oh. My. Word. That video was a joke. You can't use an inside joke as evidence of how bad PP community is.
And again, dismissing all criticism as whining is counter productive.
McNinja wrote: And then I saw a thread where someone finally began to understand that GW was a terrible company
GW isn't a "bad company". It's just a company like any other, it's run the way management sees fit to run it.
Some folks may disagree with you there.
As a designated 30(b)6 representative of the company, Alan Merrett testified under oath that he understood that copyright ownership does not extend to an idea. Despite this sworn testimony, Mr. Merrett, in his capacity as a 30(b)6 deponent, said of Games Workshop's infringement claim as to the Chapterhouse Studios Mycetic Spore Pod model, "This thing is a copy of our idea, that's the best I can come up with."
Games Workshop asserted that claim against Chapterhouse Studios, among literally hundreds of others (some others of which Mr. Merrett either described as being based solely on an idea or failed to demonstrate evidence of anything other than an idea) for more than three years of intensely costly and time consuming litigation that is still ongoing. In fact, Games Workshop is arguing to the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals that the Court should overturn the jury verdict finding that the Mycetic Spore Pod did not infringe a Games Workshop copyright.
This despite the fact that the best evidence Mr. Merrett could come up with with respect to Mycetic Spore Pod product was that it is a "copy of our idea," and that you "can't really see" the evidence of infringement he brought to trial unless you scrunch up your face and use your imagination!
When, why, and how should one draw a line between incompetence and intent? When, why, and how has it ever been acceptable in any democracy to bring imaginary evidence into a court of law?
And don't forget that Games Workshop attempted to voluntarily withdraw more than 40 different copyright claims, which, according to Mr. Merrett's testimony, Games Workshop seemed to feel were weaker than the Mycetic Spore Pod claim.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but people whine about everything and for some reason wargaming communities are especially prevalent when it comes to whining, kneejerking, rising to the barricades and general crying out. Just the way it is, whether you accept it or not that is still the case and nothing you say will change that. You can look at any miniaturegaming forum ( national or international ) and the sub-forum of any game, and there will be kneejerking, whining, threatening not to buy, selling miniatures ( as included in that video. )
Sorry, but you "fixed" fiction. Found these threads in 2 minutes from PP forums.:
And if you´re still rejecting reality and replacing it with your own, go browse more forums and you´ll see that whining and kneejerking happens everywhere, regarding any game, end of story.
So you've a found a couple of examples that back up your point (I refuse to count the second thread as you obviously have no clue what humour is. Even the YT video steers into that category too.). Good for you. Now go find the comparable Brobdingnagian monstrosities of those equivalent threads regarding 40k.
You'll have a smorgasbord of links in a few seconds. So, after doing just that which game then has the more toxic community that is fostered by the company that created it?
I don't think most people are truly angry about GW, rather despondent or myopic.
At this point, I can't get angry about the company and product; it's been too bad for too long, and the continued lack of concern from GW, the "All ahead full and damn the torpedos" mentality just makes the game worse and worse over time, so I just can't be enthusiastic anymore.
In my local club, there are two kinds of people; those who want to play a game, and those who want to play 40k. The difference comes from acceptance or refusal to accept what 40k has become; for those interested in their "tabletop fix," and don't mind combining multiple codexes, detachment shenanigans, dataslates, formations and so on, they still enjoy the game somewhat. They're not super pleased, and consider the current ruleset inferior to what came before, as recently as 6th, but they'll keep playing as they can keep winning and utilize large collections to cope with changes and GW's rules insanity, and don't have to deal with extremely high prices; they don't have to buy much or anything.
The other players, more invested in 40k as a setting as well as a tabletop game, who enjoy themed armies, apocalypse and scenarios over tournaments and direct competitions, they're the bunch just about finished with 40k. Despite all the "Forge the Narrative" bs, the game actively punishes you for building a themed army most of the time, it punishes you for taking anything less than the optimal, because the balance gulf is so enormous within and beyond individual codexes. Every codex keeps stripping options, and the "meta" requires you to take certain things or die against many armies, even other non-optimal themed ones that getting an enjoyable game takes so much more work than just agreeing not to be dicks to each other beforehand.
As I am part of the latter, we only play because we enjoy the social aspect of the game; I've shelved my Death Korps, sold a full Steel Legion army, shelved my first marine army and only persevere with my Minotaurs as the Marine codex is one of the only that can be both fluffy and perform alright, but I still get stomped most of the time, either from psykers, fliers, 7 monstrous creatures, daemons, eldar, tau, guard gunlines, and so rarely do I feel like I've lost because of how I've played, but because of how absolutely fething terrible the rules and powercreep is. The inability for our group to come to a consensus on how we want to play the game is part of the problem, but the very fact that we can't build the army we want and have any chance whatsoever of having a balanced game is a much bigger part of the problem. Is it fair to ask the competitive players to not build competitive lists; it's how they want to have fun (and by rights, they're having more fun than us), and is it any more fair to ask fluffy players to buy a bunch of new stuff they may not want to be competitive, or even to play amongst themselves?
Back in 5th, and for a good chunk of 6th, this wasn't even a discussion. Person A, B, and C ran competitive lists, while D through K ran themed lists, but even when the handful of competitive players played the themed guys, the game was not a foregone conclusion; a challenge for the themed player to win, but nothing like how it is now. That, more than anything else, is the root of the problem with 40k for me; it's become so broad, unbalanced, exploitable and imprecise that it's almost impossible to have a fun game without a lot of planning, preparation and deep knowledge of your opponent and how they will play or what army they'll bring.
MajorStoffer wrote: I don't think most people are truly angry about GW, rather despondent or myopic.
I agree with your sentiment, but I think you might be misusing "myopic".
Despite what folks might post on dakka, I have a feeling it's not so much anger and outrage as disappointment leading to ambivalence. I think most of us leave 40k with a "meh" and a sigh rather than with some sort of outburst. GW just wears us down until we don't care anymore.
MajorStoffer wrote: The other players, more invested in 40k as a setting as well as a tabletop game, who enjoy themed armies, apocalypse and scenarios over tournaments and direct competitions, they're the bunch just about finished with 40k. Despite all the "Forge the Narrative" bs, the game actively punishes you for building a themed army most of the time, it punishes you for taking anything less than the optimal, because the balance gulf is so enormous within and beyond individual codexes. Every codex keeps stripping options, and the "meta" requires you to take certain things or die against many armies, even other non-optimal themed ones that getting an enjoyable game takes so much more work than just agreeing not to be dicks to each other beforehand.
This is the funniest thing for me. GW claims it's not a competitive game and that you should have narrative games and they seem to encourage fluffy armies, but the power gulf is so great that many themed/fluffy armies are total garbage on the table, while others are amazing not even getting into all of the allies, supplements, dataslates and formations out there.
MWHistorian wrote: That video was a joke. You can't use an inside joke as evidence of how bad PP community is.
And again, dismissing all criticism as whining is counter productive.
I´ve played Warmachine and Hordes since 2008, and been a part of the online community eversince. I created that video. Pretty sure I know what it is. I can use screenshots included in a video as evidence just fine, they are screenshots.
It demonstrates and makes fun of one of the biggest whining + kneejerk debacles in PP forums history. You are almost 100% anti-GW, as your post history earlier showed. Please don´t fabricate your biased, angry ( you described yourself angry in that other thread, not my words ) opinions as criticism.
Are you really trying to argue this doesn´t happen too? What next, I state the word "Warmachine" starts with a "w" and you have to hurry in to disagree and resist? Laughable...
In any case:
Whining and kneejerking happens on nigh every wargaming forum, national and international and regarding any miniature game at any given time. Have fun accepting this fact or alternatively living in your own fictional realities, there are only these two options really. But god do I love it when people have some juvenile need to resist and disagree about things that are so obviously true.
Yeah sure, I made a video about a forum debacle that never happened because that makes sense. Go use the search function on PP's forums with the sentences in the posts and the usernames and you'll find them.
You guys argue that whining and kneejerking doesnt take place regarding other games and forums. You argue screenshots being fake ( because framing whole online communities, which contents you can openly check at any time happens everyday ) and you even bicker threads not showing the required parameters set by you. Comedy at its best.
You basically argue about anything and everything at any given time and make up something new when served. Anyway, whining and kneejerking happens on any games forum, my screenshots are real and verifiable by anyone. Enjoy these facts, wont be reading this sad thread further ( by saying ths I already expect someones juvenile gene to get a hold of them and make them write something baity and tasty to get me to respond, because mentally 5 year olds. )
MWHistorian wrote: That video was a joke. You can't use an inside joke as evidence of how bad PP community is.
And again, dismissing all criticism as whining is counter productive.
I´ve played Warmachine and Hordes since 2008, and been a part of the online community eversince. I created that video. Pretty sure I know what it is. I can use screenshots included in a video as evidence just fine, they are screenshots.
If you actually played the game then you'd know that there's nowhere near the level of complaining you see re: GW and 40k. Not even close. Stating that there are some complainers is something everyone acknowledges, the point that you keep ignoring (deliberately?) is that it's nowhere close to the complaints about 40k, and PP at least listens to what people are saying (or at the very least acknowledges them), they didn't shut down their forums and proudly claim that they don't need market research because people will buy their figures because they are PP figures.
You don't see the same type of complaining anywhere else but 40k, because GW has created a divide between players by giving one set the finger (i.e. competitive gamers) and telling them that the game isn't meant for them, but writing rules so poor that the other side (i.e. casual/fluffy gamers) can build worthless armies doing exactly the kind of things that they are wont to do (e.g. pick units that look/sound cool or that they like the fluff for). And, on top of that GW proudly claims that actually listening to customers is stupid and "otiose" and that there's no need for it while at the same time trying to pretend that their game is some niche market limited edition bullgak that is for collectors.
The argument here isn't "Other games don't have complaining" it's "Other games don't have complaints as bad as 40k".
That video wasn't a joke? That makes it even sadder.
You can't quote yourself and claim it as evidence.
The level of community divide that exists in 40k simply doesn't exist in WMH. Are there disagreements? Of course. Whenever you put two people in a room there'll be three opinions.
And yes, I do have valid criticisms of GW.
And when have I ever said I was angry? I think you may have taken something out of context.
I have been angry in the past like every other human being, but I am not currently angry about anything. My criticisms of GW come from someone who once loved the game and want to see it improved. I'll probably never go back, but that has more to do with money and time. (I need smaller games that don't take so long.)
There is some anger from some of us, and certainly disappointment since 40K has such potential but remains a crappy game. Anger can come from spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars to buy nice looking models to add to your army only to have their rules or new rules make them useless. and then on top of that watching GW seem to get worse and worse in their care for the product and their customers.
And that is disappointing since many of us want 40K to be a good game and believe it could be a good game - in many simple ways superior to the rubbish that GW puts out now (and the poor execution of ideas that may be fine in certain ways whether we all agree with it or not (for example adding flyers to 40K)).
So I'm more disappointed than angry at what might have been (and should have been IMO)
MWHistorian wrote: That video wasn't a joke? That makes it even sadder.
You can't quote yourself and claim it as evidence.
The level of community divide that exists in 40k simply doesn't exist in WMH. Are there disagreements? Of course. Whenever you put two people in a room there'll be three opinions.
And yes, I do have valid criticisms of GW.
And when have I ever said I was angry? I think you may have taken something out of context.
I have been angry in the past like every other human being, but I am not currently angry about anything. My criticisms of GW come from someone who once loved the game and want to see it improved. I'll probably never go back, but that has more to do with money and time. (I need smaller games that don't take so long.)
Think of it this way - he has given everybody's Ignore lists a chance to grow by one....
There is a term in science, investigation, and finance for people that create their own evidence when they cannot find legitimate evidence - and that term is 'Fraud'.
RunicFIN is now a self admitted fraud, so why deal with him?
Though there is a certain loverly irony in the fact that his admiied fraud so nicely undercuts the point that he was trying to make.
So.... for you to be wrong there should be literally zero complaints about other games? Yes or no.
Because i think what the others are trying to say is that there are no complaints, period. What they're trying to say is that the level of complaints and animosity with GW is not the same as with other companies and games. If I remember correctly no one said that there is no whining in other forums.
waynethegame wrote:So try again. It's not "other games don't have people who complain" it's that only GW/40k has this divide between players and the level of anger at a company which, honestly, is pretty pathetic as far as companies go.
Then, you produced evidence that... people complain, I guess? Like people complaining about something is a foreign concept to everyone.
And you're the one calling other people thick. Huh.
heartserenade wrote: Okay, so you proved that whining happens in other forums. Yay?
Really... Stop feeding the troll, there is nothing useful to be gained in this "discussion" because he isn't interested in discussing anything, he is just trolling. He did the exact same thing in the #i'mpartofreason thread.
Are you now claiming I also made up that I play Warmachine/Hordes?
PhantomViper wrote: Okay, so you proved that whining happens in other forums. Yay?
Yeah, and what makes this whole thing ridicilous is that that is the only thing I claimed, and people had to start arguing about that, and making points that aren´t related to what I originally said. Something everyone knows is true. Ridicilous isn´t it?
Really... Stop feeding the troll, there is nothing useful to be gained in this "discussion" because he isn't interested in discussing anything, he is just trolling.
But, I ain´t. You guys are just trying to dismiss me as a troll now, after I proved you wrong. Quite the losers thing to do I´m afraid.
What, you're celebrating the fact that you proved that people whine? As if that's a news to everyone! HUZZAH. You get a cookie. I think you're the very epitome of intelligence and you must have a really awesome body because you win at everything. RUN FOR PRESIDENT.
heartserenade wrote: What, you're celebrating the fact that you proved that people whine? As if that's a news to everyone! HUZZAH. You get a cookie. I think you're the very epitome of intelligence and you must have a really awesome body because you win at everything. RUN FOR PRESIDENT.
what makes this whole thing ridicilous is that that is the only thing I claimed, and people had to start arguing about that, and making points that aren´t related to what I originally said. Something everyone knows is true. Ridicilous isn´t it?
So I ask again, if I claim:
"people whine and kneejerk on other forums aswell just the same"
RunicFIN wrote: Whining and kneejerking happens on other forums ( which is what I claimed, if you´re claiming something different I gotta ask why counterargument on a different subject than what was first claimed? )
So try again. It's not "other games don't have people who complain" it's that only GW/40k has this divide between players and the level of anger at a company which, honestly, is pretty pathetic as far as companies go.
I pointed this out to you in the #i'mpartofthereason thread but apparently you still don't get it. You are refusing to acknowledge that you are creating needless arguments with people who actually agree with you. You are playing semantic games and trolling. You deliberately ignored the above response from WayneTheGame's post quoted above when you chose to attack his statement about Warmahordes rules instead. Your game is tiresome and weak.
Doom and gloom. Is that all most of you people post? With every new codex, edition, or model you all whine and say that it's gone to gak because the new stuff is different, and not perfect. why? Is that all you want to do, bitch about simple crap? The funny thing is, that all the doom-and-gloomers whine about everything, then leave, then whine about whatever game you go to.
I pointed this out to you in the #i'mpartofthereason thread but apparently you still don't get it. You are refusing to acknowledge that you are creating needless arguments with people who actually agree with you. You are playing semantic games and trolling. You deliberately ignored the above response from WayneTheGame's post quoted above when you chose to attack his statement about Warmahordes rules instead. Your game is tiresome and weak.
"people whine and kneejerk on other forums aswell just the same"
why do you respond with:
"they whine and kneejerk more relating to GW"
instead of just saying: That is true RunicFIN
-in the first place?
And still not trolling, and there is no "game" since I´m not trolling. Why is everyone suddenly dismissing the fact you blamed me for fake screenshots now that I proved you were wrong? Is this a discussion were you get to fail time after time and just move onto a new counterargument/accusation?
And you talk about trolling and this not being a "discussion." Paradoxical the lot of you.
Brennonjw wrote: Doom and gloom. Is that all most of you people post? With every new codex, edition, or model you all whine and say that it's gone to gak because the new stuff is different, and not perfect. why? Is that all you want to do, bitch about simple crap? The funny thing is, that all the doom-and-gloomers whine about everything, then leave, then whine about whatever game you go to.
Anyway, you guys can keep repeating and trying to dismiss me as a troll since that´s the only card you got left after I´ve served you twice, but it doesn´t make it so just like your reality detached accusations didn´t make my screenshots fake ( which I already proved also. ) Not trolling, screenshots are real, people whine about other games on other forums all the same. These are all facts, which nothing you say will change. Just accept it.
RunicFIN wrote: Whining and kneejerking happens on other forums ( which is what I claimed, if you´re claiming something different I gotta ask why counterargument on a different subject than what was first claimed? )
So try again. It's not "other games don't have people who complain" it's that only GW/40k has this divide between players and the level of anger at a company which, honestly, is pretty pathetic as far as companies go.
I pointed this out to you in the #i'mpartofthereason thread but apparently you still don't get it. You are refusing to acknowledge that you are creating needless arguments with people who actually agree with you. You are playing semantic games and trolling. You deliberately ignored the above response from WayneTheGame's post quoted above when you chose to attack his statement about Warmahordes rules instead. Your game is tiresome and weak.
Well, this is the point, actually. WayneTheGame already addressed that it's not about people complaining, it's about the level of complaining. Which you either conveniently ignored, or you simply didn't read because you somehow lost the ability to read English for a few seconds while looking at that post.
I guess we should go back to topic, then?
It's really hard not to notice that GW is being run terribly by people who don't even listen to their core target market. And they're even proud of that fact. Like everyone else I want to love 40k and WHFB and LotR/Hobbit, I really do. GW is just bent on making me not want to buy from them. So they're not getting any money from me.
Edit: Maybe a mod could clean up all the off topic discussion here?
MajorStoffer wrote: I don't think most people are truly angry about GW, rather despondent or myopic.
At this point, I can't get angry about the company and product; it's been too bad for too long, and the continued lack of concern from GW, the "All ahead full and damn the torpedos" mentality just makes the game worse and worse over time, so I just can't be enthusiastic anymore.
In my local club, there are two kinds of people; those who want to play a game, and those who want to play 40k. The difference comes from acceptance or refusal to accept what 40k has become; for those interested in their "tabletop fix," and don't mind combining multiple codexes, detachment shenanigans, dataslates, formations and so on, they still enjoy the game somewhat. They're not super pleased, and consider the current ruleset inferior to what came before, as recently as 6th, but they'll keep playing as they can keep winning and utilize large collections to cope with changes and GW's rules insanity, and don't have to deal with extremely high prices; they don't have to buy much or anything.
The other players, more invested in 40k as a setting as well as a tabletop game, who enjoy themed armies, apocalypse and scenarios over tournaments and direct competitions, they're the bunch just about finished with 40k. Despite all the "Forge the Narrative" bs, the game actively punishes you for building a themed army most of the time, it punishes you for taking anything less than the optimal, because the balance gulf is so enormous within and beyond individual codexes. Every codex keeps stripping options, and the "meta" requires you to take certain things or die against many armies, even other non-optimal themed ones that getting an enjoyable game takes so much more work than just agreeing not to be dicks to each other beforehand.
As I am part of the latter, we only play because we enjoy the social aspect of the game; I've shelved my Death Korps, sold a full Steel Legion army, shelved my first marine army and only persevere with my Minotaurs as the Marine codex is one of the only that can be both fluffy and perform alright, but I still get stomped most of the time, either from psykers, fliers, 7 monstrous creatures, daemons, eldar, tau, guard gunlines, and so rarely do I feel like I've lost because of how I've played, but because of how absolutely fething terrible the rules and powercreep is. The inability for our group to come to a consensus on how we want to play the game is part of the problem, but the very fact that we can't build the army we want and have any chance whatsoever of having a balanced game is a much bigger part of the problem. Is it fair to ask the competitive players to not build competitive lists; it's how they want to have fun (and by rights, they're having more fun than us), and is it any more fair to ask fluffy players to buy a bunch of new stuff they may not want to be competitive, or even to play amongst themselves?
Back in 5th, and for a good chunk of 6th, this wasn't even a discussion. Person A, B, and C ran competitive lists, while D through K ran themed lists, but even when the handful of competitive players played the themed guys, the game was not a foregone conclusion; a challenge for the themed player to win, but nothing like how it is now. That, more than anything else, is the root of the problem with 40k for me; it's become so broad, unbalanced, exploitable and imprecise that it's almost impossible to have a fun game without a lot of planning, preparation and deep knowledge of your opponent and how they will play or what army they'll bring.
Yeah, the game sucks now because PLAYERS made a meta and abuse things. Psykers aren't that deadly and are relatively rare in most armies, flies are easier to deal with now then ever before, bring bigger guns to fight people building spam lists of 7 MCs. You have the game because your local players are power gamers. by that logic, every game with multiplayer aspects sucks because there are always going to be power gamers.
Tone the snark WAY down, folks, or you'll find yourselves with some extra free time this weekend. If you're applying adjectives or otherwise labeling other posters in some fashion, you'd better be VERY sure that it's a friendly & polite adjective/label.
Well, this is the point, actually. WayneTheGame already addressed that it's not about people complaining, it's about the level of complaining. Which you either conveniently ignored, or you simply didn't read because you somehow lost the ability to read English for a few seconds while looking at that post.
If you claim "people whine everywhere" and someone counterarguments "no they don´t, only GW games have this problem" they are infact disagreeing with you.
If you claim "people whine everywhere" and someone counterarguments "the level of animosity against GW is far different than it is against PP" they are infact counterargumenting about a different thing than what you even claimed.
All I´ve done is claimed the beforementioned. People responded with something that relates to a completely different thing ( and also accused me of being fraud, which I already proved wrong. )
Do you understand, now? I can´t articulate what I mean any clearer.
Yeah, the game sucks now because PLAYERS made a meta and abuse things. Psykers aren't that deadly and are relatively rare in most armies, flies are easier to deal with now then ever before, bring bigger guns to fight people building spam lists of 7 MCs. You have the game because your local players are power gamers. by that logic, every game with multiplayer aspects sucks because there are always going to be power gamers.
If the rules weren't so poor and badly written then there wouldn't be any aspects for those "power gamers" to exploit. The fact that this divide between "power gamers" and "fluff bunnies" doesn't even exist in any other miniature wargame should be enough to show that the problem isn't on the players (GW players aren't any different than the players of every other miniature wargame), but on the rules themselves.
If the rules weren't so poor and badly written then there wouldn't be any aspects for those "power gamers" to exploit. The fact that this divide between "power gamers" and "fluff bunnies" doesn't even exist in any other miniature wargame should be enough to show that the problem isn't on the players (GW players aren't any different than the players of every other miniature wargame), but on the rules themselves.
Considering how many rules there are in 40K for example, I find saying they are all poor and badly written is an overstatement. There are some things you can abuse, but in general the balance is now better than in the 3 last editions.
And the difference between powergamers and casual gamers does exist in other games all the same, as do things you can abuse ( I won´t list an example here because someone will say it´s not a powergamer list element anyway, but I´ve followed WM/H tournaments and I´m quite aware of the competitve builds. ) Let´s just say "why aren´t you using 2 Stormwalls" is quite a common saying on the PP forums.
If the rules weren't so poor and badly written then there wouldn't be any aspects for those "power gamers" to exploit. The fact that this divide between "power gamers" and "fluff bunnies" doesn't even exist in any other miniature wargame should be enough to show that the problem isn't on the players (GW players aren't any different than the players of every other miniature wargame), but on the rules themselves.
Considering how many rules there are in 40K for example, I find saying they are all poor and badly written is an overstatement. There are some things you can abuse, but in general the balance is now better than in the 3 last editions.
And the difference between powergamers and casual gamers does exist in other games all the same, as do things you can abuse ( I won´t list an example here because someone will say it´s not a powergamer list element anyway, but I´ve followed WM/H tournaments and I´m quite aware of the competitve builds. ) Let´s just say "why aren´t you using 2 Stormwalls" is quite a common saying on the PP forums.
Maybe on the Cygnar forums, because the Khador forums has a lot of "I like MoW how can I make them work" and people get good advice. So I don't believe that for a minute. You're much more likely to find people telling you how to utilize what you want versus telling you X sucks take Y instead. Can't say the same for 40k.
What you are doing is avoiding the points being made to nitpick only things that help your cause.
Maybe on the Cygnar forums, because the Khador forums has a lot of "I like MoW how can I make them work" and people get good advice. So I don't believe that for a minute. You're much more likely to find people telling you how to utilize what you want versus telling you X sucks take Y instead. Can't say the same for 40k.
Gotta disagree, been playing Dark Angels lately and hence been checking out a lot of threads and armylists, and discussions about them. In general a Land Raider or Terminators isn´t considered an optimal choice, yet I´ve seen countless threads with people advicing others on how to make the less optimal units work. What I can agree on is that in 40K the difference of power with "useless" and top tier units is larger than in Warmachine. I disagree on how the community behaves ( the way you describe ) because I see the exact same advice and people helping others out on 40K forums. Every day.
If the rules weren't so poor and badly written then there wouldn't be any aspects for those "power gamers" to exploit. The fact that this divide between "power gamers" and "fluff bunnies" doesn't even exist in any other miniature wargame should be enough to show that the problem isn't on the players (GW players aren't any different than the players of every other miniature wargame), but on the rules themselves.
And the difference between powergamers and casual gamers does exist in other games all the same, as do things you can abuse ( I won´t list an example here because someone will say it´s not a powergamer list element anyway, but I´ve followed WM/H tournaments and I´m quite aware of the competitve builds. ) Let´s just say "why aren´t you using 2 Stormwalls" is quite a common saying on the PP forums.
Well, that point went dramatically over your head...
2 Stormwalls is in no way game breaking, exploitative, and simply unable to be dealt with like some of the gak that can be abused in 40k. They're not even in the same league. Don't even try to compare them to 2++ reroll spam or other such stupid loopholes.
Come on Grimtuff and WayneTheGame, I didn't reply to him, why did you guys had to?
He isn't interested in any meaningful discussion, he is just going to pick on any literal point that he can happen to be able to disprove and argue it to death... Just ignore him.
PhantomViper wrote: Come on Grimtuff and WayneTheGame, I didn't reply to him, why did you guys had to?
He isn't interested in any meaningful discussion, he is just going to pick on any literal point that he can happen to be able to disprove and argue it to death... Just ignore him.
I can disagree with people just the same as anyone else, and ofcourse I bring proof especially now that before my initial proof was being labeled as fake ( which again, it isn´t. ) You fellas said before people have the right to disagree and it is what discussion is about aswell, and now I don´t have that same right?
Grimtuff wrote: 2 Stormwalls is in no way game breaking, exploitative, and simply unable to be dealt with like some of the gak that can be abused in 40k. They're not even in the same league. Don't even try to compare them to 2++ reroll spam or other such stupid loopholes.
RunicFIN wrote: I won´t list an example here because someone will say it´s not a powergamer list element anyway, but I´ve followed WM/H tournaments and I´m quite aware of the competitve builds. ) Let´s just say "why aren´t you using 2 Stormwalls" is quite a common saying on the PP forums.
And this is why I didn´t give any build examples but instead just referred a common saying that also displays that the difference of powergamers and casual gamers exists. Because I knew someone would hurry to instantly try and disprove my examples even if I gave the most gamebreaking ones in existence ( and yeah, they do exist in WM/H aswell. ) And you did it anyway... weird.
And I also said:
RunicFIN wrote: What I can agree on is that in 40K the difference of power with "useless" and top tier units is larger than in Warmachine.
which is exactly the same thing as:
Grimtuff wrote: like some of the gak that can be abused in 40k. They're not even in the same league. Don't even try to compare them to 2++ reroll spam or other such stupid loopholes.
Backfire wrote: I really don't get this "7th edition makes me quit" -thing which some people have going on. 7th edition is basically 6th edition with changed Psychic rules. Surely changing Psychic powers (arguably for the better) is not going to make anyone quit? I mean I understand if people had already quit because of 6th edition since that had lot more changes, or they quit because they don't like the codecies, or prices.
Wargaming forums just have more kneejerking whiners than average.
Well, this is the point, actually. WayneTheGame already addressed that it's not about people complaining, it's about the level of complaining. Which you either conveniently ignored, or you simply didn't read because you somehow lost the ability to read English for a few seconds while looking at that post.
If you claim "people whine everywhere" and someone counterarguments "no they don´t, only GW games have this problem" they are infact disagreeing with you.
If you claim "people whine everywhere" and someone counterarguments "the level of animosity against GW is far different than it is against PP" they are infact counterargumenting about a different thing than what you even claimed.
All I´ve done is claimed the beforementioned. People responded with something that relates to a completely different thing ( and also accused me of being fraud, which I already proved wrong. )
Do you understand, now? I can´t articulate what I mean any clearer.
You're the one that took a post questioning why somebody would ragequit over the change to 7th Edition, a rather specific issue pertaining to WH40K and changed the topic to wargaming forums have more whining than any other forum (which btw you have yet to actually qualify because you then changed to argument to Warmahordes forums have the same amount of "whining" as GW centric forums).
Most every tabletop wargame has a living ruleset that gets changed/updated over time with new editions, supplements etc. but it does seem, from my limited anecdotal evidence, that GW's games spawn more of a ragequit response than any other. Your personal experience and opinion may be different but I doubt we'll ever find a collected data set that shows empirical proof that such a claim is true or false.
If the rules weren't so poor and badly written then there wouldn't be any aspects for those "power gamers" to exploit. The fact that this divide between "power gamers" and "fluff bunnies" doesn't even exist in any other miniature wargame should be enough to show that the problem isn't on the players (GW players aren't any different than the players of every other miniature wargame), but on the rules themselves.
Considering how many rules there are in 40K for example, I find saying they are all poor and badly written is an overstatement. There are some things you can abuse, but in general the balance is now better than in the 3 last editions.
I would agrue that the sheer volume of rules in 40K shows that its a bad ruleset. Using Warmachine as an example since you seem familiar with that game, if you were playing a game of Warmachine with two players with armies of different factions how many rulebooks would you need to have present? With 40K it would be minimum of 3 with the possibility of needing 6 if playing with allies and the possible inclusion of supplements/dataslates. GW has been shown to take the approach of creating new models that require new rules leading to rules bloat that can hamper the flow and enjoyment of the game which in my opinion is a problem and proof of poor rules writing.
I would agrue that the sheer volume of rules in 40K shows that its a bad ruleset. Using Warmachine as an example since you seem familiar with that game, if you were playing a game of Warmachine with two players with armies of different factions how many rulebooks would you need to have present? With 40K it would be minimum of 3 with the possibility of needing 6 if playing with allies and the possible inclusion of supplements/dataslates. GW has been shown to take the approach of creating new models that require new rules leading to rules bloat that can hamper the flow and enjoyment of the game which in my opinion is a problem and proof of poor rules writing.
It is true that more things that need to be factored in always complicate things, be it rules for a game or anything else.
Regarding the communities, I never claimed PP forums have the same amount of whining than GW centric ones do. I only claimed people whine and kneejerk everywhere, on any games forum. I used the term "people whine just the same" atleast once - by this I mean what I just said. People behave the same everywhere. I do not mean "same amount."
I believe though that the whining goes in scale with a forums userbase. I don´t believe there´s less whiners on a certain forum because of the game it´s connected to - I believe it´s just the amount of users. Be the forum about Infinity, Warmahordes or 40K, the forum with 10,000 users will have less whiners than the one with 50,000. Note in this case I say believe, as I cannot prove it.
Backfire wrote: I really don't get this "7th edition makes me quit" -thing which some people have going on. 7th edition is basically 6th edition with changed Psychic rules. Surely changing Psychic powers (arguably for the better) is not going to make anyone quit? I mean I understand if people had already quit because of 6th edition since that had lot more changes, or they quit because they don't like the codecies, or prices.
40K forums just have more kneejerking whiners than average.
Fixed that for you. This isn't a wargaming problem, it's a wholly GW/40k problem. Other games don't have this problem.
I would agrue that the sheer volume of rules in 40K shows that its a bad ruleset. Using Warmachine as an example since you seem familiar with that game, if you were playing a game of Warmachine with two players with armies of different factions how many rulebooks would you need to have present? With 40K it would be minimum of 3 with the possibility of needing 6 if playing with allies and the possible inclusion of supplements/dataslates. GW has been shown to take the approach of creating new models that require new rules leading to rules bloat that can hamper the flow and enjoyment of the game which in my opinion is a problem and proof of poor rules writing.
It is true that more things that need to be factored in always complicate things, be it rules for a game or anything else.
Regarding the communities, I never claimed PP forums have the same amount of whining than GW centric ones do. I only claimed people whine and kneejerk everywhere, on any games forum. I used the term "people whine just the same" atleast once - by this I mean what I just said. People behave the same everywhere. I do not mean "same amount."
I believe though that the whining goes in scale with a forums userbase. I don´t believe there´s less whiners on a certain forum because of the game it´s connected to - I believe it´s just the amount of users. Be the forum about Infinity, Warmahordes or 40K, the forum with 10,000 users will have less whiners than the one with 50,000. Note in this case I say believe, as I cannot prove it.
This thread was started with the OP stating his take on the current state of affairs with GW's WH40K as he perceived it. It was then replied to with other people's take on GW generally and 40K specifically. Somebody commented that he couldn't understand why GW's 7th Ed could make people ragequit and you responded that wargaming forums have more whining than the average forum (again a claim you have failed to support in any way). Somebody else ammended your, somewhat off topic, comment to emphasize that GW has a bigger problem with complaints from current/former players and a divisive player base unlike that faced by any other game/game forum. To which you then replied that PP forums also have whining.
You have now posted that large forums have more whiners/whining than smaller forums which correlates to the claim that GW, being the biggest company in the hobby and having the biggest presence in gaming forums, has a whining problem that goes above and beyond the whining found with other games. Once again, you've spent pages of needless arguments and semantic nit picking to foster a debate with somebody with whom you're actually in agreement. Seems like a colossal waste of time to me.
Post whatever you want, have fun, I'm not engaging you in this topic anymore.
Prestor Jon wrote: needless arguments and semantic nit picking to foster a debate with somebody with whom you're actually in agreement.
If you read the posts of other posters you will see that there is 2% agreeing and 98% counterargumenting on everything they possibly can counterargument on, even on different subjects than what were originally talked about. Arguing about something different is essentially the same thing as arguing with someone who agrees with you - in neither case there is disagreement on the original point. It takes two to tango.
No one initially said "that is true, you are correct" - without any sidetracking, deliberate/accidental misunderstanding, or nitpicking when I said people whine on other forums just the same. No one. Instead they replied with what you can read on the pages, ranging from calling legit screenshots fraud and other comedy level stuff.
Prestor Jon wrote: needless arguments and semantic nit picking to foster a debate with somebody with whom you're actually in agreement.
If you read the posts of other posters you will see that there is 2% agreeing and 98% counterargumenting on everything they possibly can counterargument on, even on different subjects than what were originally talked about. Arguing about something different is essentially the same thing as arguing with someone who agrees with you - in neither case there is disagreement on the original point. It takes two to tango.
No one initially said "that is true, you are correct" - without any sidetracking, deliberate/accidental misunderstanding, or nitpicking when I said people whine on other forums just the same. No one. Instead they replied with what you can read on the pages, ranging from calling legit screenshots fraud and other comedy level stuff.
Most of these "counter-arguments" are people trying to explain what their position is and you misinterpreting their positions and arguing against things no one's really saying.
PhantomViper wrote: Come on Grimtuff and WayneTheGame, I didn't reply to him, why did you guys had to?
He isn't interested in any meaningful discussion, he is just going to pick on any literal point that he can happen to be able to disprove and argue it to death... Just ignore him.
Gotta agree with this. I don't think anyone is going to move on their points here, so it's a circular discussion. Having said that, I think this thread has probably run its course anyway.
All things said though, if, ifGW got its act together, I think a lot of gamers would return. Currently though, I'm perfectly happy playing the games I play (Aetherverse and Infinity), and actually have no qualms with them at all
PhantomViper wrote: Come on Grimtuff and WayneTheGame, I didn't reply to him, why did you guys had to?
He isn't interested in any meaningful discussion, he is just going to pick on any literal point that he can happen to be able to disprove and argue it to death... Just ignore him.
Gotta agree with this. I don't think anyone is going to move on their points here, so it's a circular discussion. Having said that, I think this thread has probably run its course anyway.
All things said though, if, ifGW got its act together, I think a lot of gamers would return. Currently though, I'm perfectly happy playing the games I play (Aetherverse and Infinity), and actually have no qualms with them at all
For me, I do play Warmachine and like it, but I secretly yearn to play 40k again. So for me personally if GW got its act together I would certainly return. But I don't think it will ever capture that coolness and feel in 1998-2000. And in its current state it's not worth the money that would be spent when I can spend roughly the same and get a better game with a company that cares.
Most of these "counter-arguments" are people trying to explain what their position is and you misinterpreting their positions and arguing against things no one's really saying.
Hmm nah, it´s people arguing besides a given point, and calling others liars ( like you did, infact there isn´t a single post I´ve made you haven´t nitpicked on. ) along with bickering, unpolite posts and the like. It´s not, and was not people just "trying to explain what their position is."
Most of these "counter-arguments" are people trying to explain what their position is and you misinterpreting their positions and arguing against things no one's really saying.
Hmm nah, it´s people arguing besides a given point, and calling others liars ( like you did, infact there isn´t a single post I´ve made you haven´t nitpicked on. ) along with bickering, unpolite posts and the like. It´s not, and was not people just "trying to explain what their position is."
If you feel a majority of posters are rude and impolite, then there might be common factor at work here?
I mean, your first contribution to this thread was this:
RunicFIN wrote: Wargaming forums just have more kneejerking whiners than average.
What kind of response were you expecting? I eyed through the thread, and the impolite and harsh posts from the "haters" didn't really start until after you came in.
-Loki- wrote: There's like, a whole thread where people are talking about their reasons for not playing GW's games anymore. This would have fit right in there.
Absolutely, the beaten to an unrecognizable pulp, dead horse thread.
-Loki- wrote: There's like, a whole thread where people are talking about their reasons for not playing GW's games anymore. This would have fit right in there.
Absolutely, the beaten to an unrecognizable pulp, dead horse thread.
Not dead horse.
I made it for this very purpose, to document and show people like you why people are leaving. You'd be surprised how often it has to be done.
RunicFIN wrote: True. But it doesn't change what I wrote in the earlier post. Expected nothing less than offensive posts and bickering, this is Dakka.
If you keep posting things like this, what do you expect to get as a response?
Frankly, your posts are part of the problem you're accusing other people of.
I thought this one was over. Guess not. Anyway, if you read these forums actively you are therefore aware of the fact that even if you act polite and civil you will be met with bickering, personal attacks and attempts at discrediting you, and deliberate misinterpretation 90% of the time, unless the topic is something neutral enough, inwhich case I´ll know there might be some benefit. I just say things the way they are and skip the useless circling around, I avoid the diminishing returns.
Anyhow, this is probably the 7th or so post inwhich you ask me personal questions and queries, I advise you to PM me instead so we don´t have to discuss your interests regarding me in threads about other subjects any further.
I thought this one was over. Guess not. Anyway, if you read these forums actively you are therefore aware of the fact that even if you act polite and civil you will be met with bickering, personal attacks and attempts at discrediting you, and deliberate misinterpretation 90% of the time, unless the topic is something neutral enough, inwhich case I´ll know there might be some benefit. I just say things the way they are and skip the useless circling around, I avoid the diminishing returns.
Anyhow, this is probably the 7th or so post inwhich you ask me personal questions and queries, I advise you to PM me instead so we don´t have to discuss your interests regarding me in threads about other subjects any further.
You know, because I called you on it another thread, please cite these 90% of the time personal attacks, discrediting, and deliberate misinterpretation.
RunicFIN wrote: I thought this one was over. Guess not. Anyway, if you read these forums actively you are therefore aware of the fact that even if you act polite and civil you will be met with bickering, personal attacks and attempts at discrediting you, and deliberate misinterpretation 90% of the time, unless the topic is something neutral enough, inwhich case I´ll know there might be some benefit. I just say things the way they are and skip the useless circling around, I avoid the diminishing returns.
When someone else is rude or aggressive, it's a terrible and unprovoked personal attack on me from people who can't handle rational debate.
When I am rude or aggressive, I'm just talking straight and telling it like it is.
Here´s a case of misinterpretation and discrediting for you right off the bat, Blacksails.
I don´t know what forums you read. I see all the mentioned activities on these forums every single day towards a wide range of folk.
I find claiming "I don´t see deliberate misinterpretation, nitpicking, personal attacks and discrediting on DakkaDakka" or any internet forum pretty much -quite an extreme claim, because it literally happens every day around different parts of different forums. Not that you said such a thing, but if someone would. I´m sure you meant the few threads or so, and probably thought that I did too or was just talking on a personal note. I was talking in general. A case of misinterpretation there.
Here´s a case of misinterpretation and discrediting for you right off the bat, Blacksails.
Grump is one of the most affable and least easily riled personalities you'll find posting in Discussions on a regular basis, that you, and we are both assuming it's you, you weren't specifically referenced, prompted this sort of response from him speaks volumes in and of itself, as you'd know if you'd were here often enough to become acquainted with some of the personalities behind the usernames.
Which leads me neatly on to another point, your time on the board or number of posts has absolutely no bearing on the validity of your argument, contrary to the PM you sent me after your thread was locked and couldn't get the last word in. I didn't say your argument was rubbish because you had a low number of posts, I said that your sort of post was typical of posters with low post counts, that it was a terrible argument was purely coincidental.
Azreal13 wrote: contrary to the PM you sent me after your thread was locked
Did the same thing to you, too, huh? Funny thing is, I had originally intended to address his points piece by piece, but then I realized that I could spend probably half an hour doing that and have him ignore or willfully misinterpret things, or I could drop a snarky one-liner and go do something else with my time.
Azreal13 wrote: I didn't say your argument was rubbish because you had a low number of posts, I said that your sort of post was typical of posters with low post counts, that it was a terrible argument was purely coincidental.
You clearly think someone having a low post count somehow means their word has less weight, it´s quite obvious. Must say it´s a really poor logic. I´ve seen you use post count as "leverage" ( quotation marks for obvious reasons ) before.
Didn´t play any victim card, now where did you get this one into your head? You just keep making up new and new things, I admire your creativity, I´ll say that much. Saying nitpicking, misinterpretation, attacks and discrediting happens on forums every day = victim card. Ok. Again, strong case of misinterpretation.
And yeah, I told Azrael I find judging someones views on post count is kind of stupid really. And Ratbot said I have never even played Warmachine ( again, some discrediting examples for you Blacksails. Still not seeing it? ) I can´t even fathom how someone just decides a person hasn´t done what they say they have without knowing them at all. Do you?
RunicFIN wrote:if you act polite and civil you will be met with bickering, personal attacks and attempts at discrediting you, and deliberate misinterpretation 90% of the time
Didn´t play any victim card, now where did you get this one into your head?
RunicFIN wrote:if you act polite and civil you will be met with bickering, personal attacks and attempts at discrediting you, and deliberate misinterpretation 90% of the time
Didn´t play any victim card, now where did you get this one into your head?
Nope, no victim card at all,
Totally in my head.
I guess you can (mis)interpret that sentence as such, but the way I meant to relay it was more along the lines of "pessimistic realism" than "poor me" - if you now understand.
Clearly everyone is out to get you, and is in no way related to how you carry yourself on these forums.
Have a nice day.
Hey! Maybe I am out to get him!
Ever think of that?! Hunh! Hunh!
*Looks again*
No, sorry... my mistake. You can keep him.
One other thing about a low post count - it can indicate somebody that has not yet learned how a forum plays together - if RunicFIN came from 4Chan then he is being quite restrained, but for here... not quite so much.
It is possible that he is used to being on forums where the volume of argument is paramount over quality of argument - that when pressed for proof he takes it as a request to increase the volume.
Though how someone can try to argue that GWhasn't claimed to do no market research....
The Auld Grump, but, hey! At least Kirby got to use the word otiose!
I merely dropped that as a sarcastic one liner because I find it hard to believe that someone knowledgeable about the game could make such insane, illogical false equivalencies.
I had originally intended to address your post piece by piece, but then decided I'd rather not spend the time to attempt to get you to understand other peoples' positions when you would basically just go "NO U!" and stuff your fingers in your ears.
RatBot wrote: Funny thing is, I had originally intended to address his points piece by piece, but then I realized that I could spend probably half an hour doing that and have him ignore or willfully misinterpret things, or I could drop a snarky one-liner and go do something else with my time.
But you instead went with an outrageously unlogical claim, acting like you know anything about a person you´ve never met and blatantly stated I don´t play Warmachine?
RatBot wrote: just go "NO U!" and stuff your fingers in your ears.
Just like most of the anti-GW folk have been doing in a couple of threads now. Sticks and stones. Again.
Gotta admire you guys for persistence, I don´t know what you´re after though.
So, I explicitly say "post count does not invalidate an argument, but the argument you were making is typical of low post count users, and was done badly" and you somehow get "you have a low post count therefore your argument was bad?"
Anyway, what are you guys trying to do or achieve here?
I don't know, what the hell are you trying to achieve by coming to this forum and attempting to force everyone to agree with you by being ]abrasive, condescending, illogical,and stating your opinion as fact while simultaneously dismissing everyone else's opinion?
