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Post by: hotsauceman1
But only if it isnt made out of a poptart
http://www.king5.com/story/news/local/2014/10/22/sikh-kirpan-auburn-schools-knives/17746565/
AUBURN, Wash. -- Like all religions, the Sikh faith is steeped in tradition. One of the most revered is the carrying of a Kirpan, a sword or dagger, at all times.
"People will even wear it in the shower. It's kind of hard for others to understand," said Jaswinder Singh, spokesman for the Gurudwara Sikh Center of Seattle.
The concept of the Kirpan is taught to children at an early age. The dagger is considered an instrument of social justice.
"For the people who are formally initiated to the Kirpan, it's very near and dear," said Singh.
But is it appropriate to bring to school?
A few weeks ago at Auburn's Gildo Rey Elementary, a Sikh family approached the school telling them their little boy would be carrying a Kirpan every day.
That didn't sit well with some.
One school volunteer named Shelby, who asked her last name not be used, said respecting religion goes too far if it compromises student safety.
"There's no way I'd go back until the knife was gone," she said.
Shelby does not volunteer at Gildo Rey.
"They can't take that thing into the airport. TSA would be all over it. Why is a school any different?" she asked.
District administrators are citing state and federal guidelines that allow certain exceptions to Washington's "zero tolerance" for weapons policy.
They say there are plenty of Sikhs, both students and staff, who have carried Kirpans to school for years without incident.
In this case, the knife is to be kept under the child's clothes at all times.
"The knife can't come out. It can't be shown around. It needs to be underneath their clothing," said Auburn Assistant Superintendent of Schools Ryan Foster. "That allows them to express their religion without jeopardizing anyone's feeling of safety. If there are any problems, we will take it to the family, but we don't expect any."
I honestly have no problem with this. From the looks of it, it is difficult to pull out. I personally would make an exception only if it was made to the knife could never be romoved from the scabbard.
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Post by: ScootyPuffJunior
It is possible for the Kirpan to be worn and unable to be removed from the scabbard, as was the case in New York a few years ago.
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Post by: Grey Templar
I fail to see how this is any more dangerous than all the students who carry pocket knives.
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Post by: Jimsolo
I'm unaware of any elementary school that officially allows pocket knives.
That being said, if the kirpan is bound into its sheath, and is concealed, this seems pretty immaterial.
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Post by: Jihadin
Zero Tolerance is Zero Tolerance
Because some how some way some idiot going to try to pull that knife out. Either the owner, friend, or idiot.
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Post by: timetowaste85
Ugh, I really, REALLY want to side with religion on this one...but I can't. It's a weapon. The kid who owns it has respect for it. Sure. I get that-I totally do. But other moron students won't. And it will end badly. Possibly for the religious students. If I were a parent, I wouldn't let my kid in that school either for safety. I want to side with the religious group-but no way. This is wrong. I get that it can be "strapped in" to make removing it harder. But it needs to be impossible, or somebody will find a way.
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Post by: ScootyPuffJunior
 timetowaste85 wrote:Ugh, I really, REALLY want to side with religion on this one...but I can't. It's a weapon. The kid who owns it has respect for it. Sure. I get that-I totally do. But other moron students won't. And it will end badly. Possibly for the religious students. If I were a parent, I wouldn't let my kid in that school either for safety. I want to side with the religious group-but no way. This is wrong. I get that it can be "strapped in" to make removing it harder. But it needs to be impossible, or somebody will find a way.
There are ways to make the blade unable to be removed from the sheath, it isn't rocket science.
Sikh kids do this in plenty of schools around the country, it's nothing new.
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Post by: Jihadin
There is no such thing as "Idiot Proof"
Best bet. Welding the hilt to the sheath but then
Zero Tolarence
What if someone has a cross who's length is dagger shape?
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Post by: Iron_Captain
I always carry a knife to school. As does almost every kid in my school. No accident has ever happened. I think people are hugely overreacting. Once again, I do not get the seemingly self-contradictory American attitude to weapons. You guys have a serious love-hate relationship going on  In this case, forbidding a Sikh to wear that dagger is the same as forbidding a Muslim to wear a headscarf.
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Post by: Jihadin
Easy on Iron
He's French and 14
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Post by: Iron_Captain
I am not FRENCH!! 
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Post by: Jihadin
Close enough for Government work 
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Post by: CptJake
 Iron_Captain wrote:I always carry a knife to school. As does almost every kid in my school. No accident has ever happened. I think people are hugely overreacting. Once again, I do not get the seemingly self-contradictory American attitude to weapons. You guys have a serious love-hate relationship going on
In this case, forbidding a Sikh to wear that dagger is the same as forbidding a Muslim to wear a headscarf.
If the school has a No Knife policy, it has a No Knife policy. There have been (extreme) cases where kids are suspended for bringing a butter knife in their damned lunch box.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/29/student-suspended-butter-knife-lunch_n_2979808.html
Schools tend to get stupid with zero tolerance policies.
As for a knife = headscarf, I submit one is actually a weapon, even if ceremonial in nature, and the other is an item of clothing. Having said that, if a school had a No Hats/Head covering policy, I would expect it to be applied the same to the kid wanting to wear a baseball cap as it was applied to a Muslim or Jewish kid.
Rules may be asinine. But if they exist, they need to be applied to all. If you don't like them quit voting for the same gak bags to sit on your school board, and the same gak bags to sit in your state legislatures. VOte in folks who will enact rules you can live with.
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Post by: Ouze
I have no problem with this, but I similarly have no problem with a kid having a swiss army knife on his keychain or a butter knife in his lunchbox. "Zero tolerance" policies are the problem, not how they are applied - zero tolerance also means zero thinking.
Also, so far every single facebook post I have seen on this has conflated Sikhs with Muslims, which is equal parts amusing and depressing.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
 Ouze wrote:I have no problem with this, but I similarly have no problem with a kid having a swiss army knife on his keychain or a butter knife in his lunchbox. "Zero tolerance" policies are the problem, not how they are applied - zero tolerance also means zero thinking.
Also, so far every single facebook post I have seen on this has conflated Sikhs with Muslims, which is equal parts amusing and depressing.
I have never blamed Schools for Zero Tolerance policies, those where put in place to placate stupid sue happy parents "But Johnny brought in a butter knife last week in his lunch box, why cant my kid have a Cleaver for his steak, that is favortism right there"
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Post by: Iron_Captain
 CptJake wrote: Iron_Captain wrote:I always carry a knife to school. As does almost every kid in my school. No accident has ever happened. I think people are hugely overreacting. Once again, I do not get the seemingly self-contradictory American attitude to weapons. You guys have a serious love-hate relationship going on
In this case, forbidding a Sikh to wear that dagger is the same as forbidding a Muslim to wear a headscarf.
If the school has a No Knife policy, it has a No Knife policy. There have been (extreme) cases where kids are suspended for bringing a butter knife in their damned lunch box.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/29/student-suspended-butter-knife-lunch_n_2979808.html
Schools tend to get stupid with zero tolerance policies.
As for a knife = headscarf, I submit one is actually a weapon, even if ceremonial in nature, and the other is an item of clothing. Having said that, if a school had a No Hats/Head covering policy, I would expect it to be applied the same to the kid wanting to wear a baseball cap as it was applied to a Muslim or Jewish kid.
Rules may be asinine. But if they exist, they need to be applied to all. If you don't like them quit voting for the same gak bags to sit on your school board, and the same gak bags to sit in your state legislatures. VOte in folks who will enact rules you can live with.
I think you should look at the spirit of the rules, rather than the letter of the rule.
And 'zero tolerance' really sounds like a bad thing.
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Post by: ScootyPuffJunior
CptJake wrote:Rules may be asinine. But if they exist, they need to be applied to all. If you don't like them quit voting for the same gak bags to sit on your school board, and the same gak bags to sit in your state legislatures. VOte in folks who will enact rules you can live with.
No one should have to go to the ballot box for their rights: "The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts. One's right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections." -Justice Robert Jackson, majority opinion on West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette,1943
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Post by: Hordini
They say there are plenty of Sikhs, both students and staff, who have carried Kirpans to school for years without incident.
I have zero problem with this.
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Post by: Ouze
 hotsauceman1 wrote:I have never blamed Schools for Zero Tolerance policies, those where put in place to placate stupid sue happy parents "But Johnny brought in a butter knife last week in his lunch box, why cant my kid have a Cleaver for his steak, that is favortism right there"
That's when the school administration has to have someone pull up their big boy pants and explain the difference between a butter knife and a cleaver to the parents. I know zero tolerance is easier, but that doesn't make it right.
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Post by: Daemonhammer
Personally i hate the way religions always get special treatment.
There are usually problems involved with having a knife with you for self defense, yet apparently its perfectly normal for someone to have one because its part of their religion.
I come from a line of Polish nobles, and it was our tradition to always have a weapon on or near you (because you never know what might happen) yet i cant carry a sword around with me for some reason.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
It isnt right in the slightest, But you just know the parents will take it to court. And spend money the District doesn't have. Its sad is you ask me.
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Post by: Daemonhammer
Also, if they are required by their religion to carry a weapon like a knife or a sword then by making it impossible to take it out it is a breach of that requirement. Its a bit like carrying a gun around in a sealed case.
But who am i to look for logic in religion.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
How do most schools deal with this issue? I think there are ways to render the knife unusable and decorative.
I'm not keen on zero-tolerance policies, but I don't see a good reason for children to bring swiss army and pocket knives to school. I don't care if some people can say they and their mates would be safe with them, I've worked in schools and know plenty of children that can't be trusted not to abuse them if an outright ban isn't placed. You can't ban knives for some kids and not others in a school, rules for pupils can't be enforced effectively like that.
As someone working in a school, I've rather the children didn't have them. This isn't like the stupid panic over children drawing pictures of guns or fashioning a pop-tart into the shape of a gun, you can actually seriously hurt people with knives of almost any length. It doesn't even have to be some deliberate act, all it needs is for a dopey kid to be playing about with it and trip over, that's hardly improbable in a school, and then you've got a trip to hospital and all sorts of questions being asked about why this stupidity and easily preventable accident was allowed to occur.
What I see is the potential for trouble for no real benefit beyond satisfying children wanting to look cool and carry a knife, they certainly won't be opening boxes/packaging and needing to cut through things. There are knives in the canteen for eating which is the only time a child should need a knife outside a classroom activity where they would be supplied as needed. I imagine most teachers would agree, they don't want children carrying knives of any description to school.
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Post by: ScootyPuffJunior
It isn't special treatment, it's called "rights."
There are usually problems involved with having a knife with you for self defense, yet apparently its perfectly normal for someone to have one because its part of their religion.
Yeah, actually it's kinda both. The Sikh carry a Kirpan as part of their articles of faith (The Five Ks): historically, they faced persecution in their homeland by so they carried their Kirpan for self-defense and to defend against any who are oppressed or otherwise suffer unjustly, regardless of race, religion, or creed.
I come from a line of Polish nobles, and it was our tradition to always have a weapon on or near you (because you never know what might happen) yet i cant carry a sword around with me for some reason.
Sorry about your luck?
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Post by: Jihadin
Christians use the longsword as a make do cross when needed but you do not see that happening in school
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Wait, if the Kirpan is a religious weapon, wouldn't this be a case covered by both the first and second amendments? I sense a LOT of Dakka Bingo credits coming our way in the near future.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Haha, The First and Second amendment existing in schools, thats funny
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Post by: Daemonhammer
Oh but it is special treatment. Because if they are not allowed to do what their religion tells them to do they will cry racism and start suing people. And probably win too.
Yet if someone wanted to have a knife for self defense they would be able to in a similar situation, even though "self defense" is by far more a valid reason to have a weapon with you than because some special book says so.
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Post by: Jihadin
Always thought kids did not have certain "rights" till they hit 18
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Post by: Hordini
 Daemonhammer wrote:Also, if they are required by their religion to carry a weapon like a knife or a sword then by making it impossible to take it out it is a breach of that requirement. Its a bit like carrying a gun around in a sealed case.
But who am i to look for logic in religion.
Yes, why don't you tell Sikh's more about your interpretation of their religion. I'm sure they'd love to know how they're doing it wrong.
And sorry you can't carry a longsword in Ireland. Come to the US! If you like weapons we can fix you right up. 
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Post by: Daemonhammer
 Hordini wrote:
And sorry you can't carry a longsword in Ireland. Come to the US! If you like weapons we can fix you right up.
One thing i like about America. I could even have a tank if i wanted to
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Post by: Jihadin
Master P has a gold plated Sheridan in his place I believe
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Post by: ScootyPuffJunior
Daemonhammer wrote:
Oh but it is special treatment. Because if they are not allowed to do what their religion tells them to do they will cry racism and start suing people. And probably win too.
Yet if someone wanted to have a knife for self defense they would be able to in a similar situation, even though "self defense" is by far more a valid reason to have a weapon with you than because some special book says so.
Yeah... No.
Look kid, I can clearly see you're all angsty about religion and how it's unfair that you can't pretend to be the King of Poland and walk around with a sword on your hip, but it'll all be okay... One day you'll figure out the difference between religious liberty and playing dress up.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
I wonder if they can get away with chakram bracelets? 
Ouze wrote:Also, so far every single facebook post I have seen on this has conflated Sikhs with Muslims, which is equal parts amusing and depressing.
I did it once. Not everyone immediately knows the difference.
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Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae
Allow it on the condition that the blade is rubber? 
Or, if it absolutely has to be a metal blade, demand that it be blunt and fused with the scabbard with copious amounts of superglue. 
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Post by: Daemonhammer
Look kid, I can clearly see you're all angsty about religion and how it's unfair that you can't pretend to be the King of Poland and walk around with a sword on your hip, but it'll all be okay... One day you'll figure out the difference between religious liberty and playing dress up.
I hope you do relaise that the part about me not being able to carry a sword around was a joke?
Your attempt at insulting me was unnecessary. And you kinda went off topic here.
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Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae
 H.B.M.C. wrote:I wonder if they can get away with chakram bracelets?
Ouze wrote:Also, so far every single facebook post I have seen on this has conflated Sikhs with Muslims, which is equal parts amusing and depressing.
I did it once. Not everyone immediately knows the difference.
There is at least one VERY noticeable difference...
When was the last time that anyone can remember the News reporting on a terror attack by Sikh extremists? I sure as hell can't remember.
Islam on the other hand...I read, hear or see stories about Islamic extremism on a weekly basis.
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Post by: ScootyPuffJunior
Daemonhammer wrote:
Look kid, I can clearly see you're all angsty about religion and how it's unfair that you can't pretend to be the King of Poland and walk around with a sword on your hip, but it'll all be okay... One day you'll figure out the difference between religious liberty and playing dress up.
I hope you do relaise that the part about me not being able to carry a sword around was a joke?
Your attempt at insulting me was unnecessary. And you kinda went off topic here.
Ah, the classic fallback of claiming something was a joke when people point how dumb if was.
Points for trying.
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Post by: Hordini
If you have the money to pay for it, sure! You'd have a hard time getting ammunition for the main gun though, and would need a Federal Firearms License if you wanted to put fully automatic machine guns on it (and boatload of money for each additional MG).
But a tank without weapons is definitely doable.
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Post by: Daemonhammer
 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:Ah, the classic fallback of claiming something was a joke when people point how dumb if was.
Points for trying.
So what you are trying to tell me when i was talking about how it sucks how i cant carry a real sword around with me in public i was being serious?
Okay.
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Post by: ScootyPuffJunior
Daemonhammer wrote:
So what you are trying to tell me when i was talking about how it sucks how i cant carry a real sword around with me in public i was being serious?
Show where you said otherwise or gave any indication that was to be taken in jest before I told you that you don't understand what rights in my country are.
I'll wait.
Okay.
Okay indeed, my friend.
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Post by: Banzaimash
Daemonhammer wrote:
Oh but it is special treatment. Because if they are not allowed to do what their religion tells them to do they will cry racism and start suing people. And probably win too.
Yet if someone wanted to have a knife for self defense they would be able to in a similar situation, even though "self defense" is by far more a valid reason to have a weapon with you than because some special book says so.
Some special book didn't say so though... you are clearly pretty ignorant on the subject of Sikhism.
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Post by: easysauce
 Jihadin wrote:Zero Tolerance is Zero Tolerance
Because some how some way some idiot going to try to pull that knife out. Either the owner, friend, or idiot.
sikh knives are allowed here... bread knives for spreading your jam are a no no... but they dont even check/ask them to be non drawable, but hey... just because its the law that no one has knives in school, doesnt mean the law applies to religions.
But Its not like government forces other religions to comply with laws in violation of their religious traditions right?
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Post by: Co'tor Shas
As long as nobody is negativity effected, I see no problem in him having the dagger. And they could use a dagger blade you get in a prop dagger, just in case.
Honestly though, zero tolerance pretty stupid. I too AP 3D art and design in 11th grade at my high school, and I got in trouble for having a utility knife on me, when it was given to me by my art teacher, in class. Watching her rail on administration for that was one of the more entertaining things I have seen. I got out of it, so it wasn't so bad, very annoying though.
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Post by: ZultanQ
Year 1850: Kids chop wood at school with axes, are taught to use muskets, and learn common sense.
Year 2014: There are people in this country who want to ban pocket knives from school, and also have the nerve to call themselves men.
Normally I'm against the pushing of "diversity" in school (i.e. this Sikh religion) because this is often translates to "let's promote things that aren't Christianity because BOOOOOO white people religion", but I have to side with the Sikh kid on this. The fact that there are people afraid of pocket knives just goes to show how effective the government/police state/liberalization/leftists/whatever you want this boogeyman to be has turned the population into a frightened lamb hiding in a bubble of "safety". It's baffling, really.
If you think kids taking pocket knives to school presents a significant danger to them, considering the millions of legitimate dangers that kids endure at school and in daily life since society's inception, I invite you to reevaluate your priorities.
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Post by: Hordini
 ZultanQ wrote:Year 1850: Kids chop wood at school with axes, are taught to use muskets, and learn common sense.
Year 2014: There are people in this country who want to ban pocket knives from school, and also have the nerve to call themselves men.
Normally I'm against the pushing of "diversity" in school (i.e. this Sikh religion) because this is often translates to "let's promote things that aren't Christianity because BOOOOOO white people religion", but I have to side with the Sikh kid on this. The fact that there are people afraid of pocket knives just goes to show how effective the government/police state/liberalization/leftists/whatever you want this boogeyman to be has turned the population into a frightened lamb hiding in a bubble of "safety". It's baffling, really.
If you think kids taking pocket knives to school presents a significant danger to them, considering the millions of legitimate dangers that kids endure at school and in daily life since society's inception, I invite you to reevaluate your priorities.
How is allowing a Sikh kid to practice his religion "pushing diversity" in school?
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Post by: ZultanQ
Hordini wrote: ZultanQ wrote:Year 1850: Kids chop wood at school with axes, are taught to use muskets, and learn common sense.
Year 2014: There are people in this country who want to ban pocket knives from school, and also have the nerve to call themselves men.
Normally I'm against the pushing of "diversity" in school (i.e. this Sikh religion) because this is often translates to "let's promote things that aren't Christianity because BOOOOOO white people religion", but I have to side with the Sikh kid on this. The fact that there are people afraid of pocket knives just goes to show how effective the government/police state/liberalization/leftists/whatever you want this boogeyman to be has turned the population into a frightened lamb hiding in a bubble of "safety". It's baffling, really.
If you think kids taking pocket knives to school presents a significant danger to them, considering the millions of legitimate dangers that kids endure at school and in daily life since society's inception, I invite you to reevaluate your priorities.
How is allowing a Sikh kid to practice his religion "pushing diversity" in school?
Because this would be a non-issue if religious freedom in the west was actually respected. When Christians attempt exercise religious freedom at public schools they are ridiculed, while a California school recently had "let's all dress up like Muslims day".
And before anybody says it (again), I'm not a Christian, or financially privileged, or whatever straw man you already cooked up in your head about me.
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Post by: the shrouded lord
Australia is annoying because drugs are everywhere but weapons are freaking impossible to get unless you make your own. which I have. and will. I'm not sure if it counts as a weapon, but I take a screwdriver to school everyday.
honestly, as long as some random kid, say an over-zealous christain or some other variant of religious belief, were to take the knife out and stab the poor kid, it's as simple as stitching the sheaf up. so to undo it some kid would need to bring a knife to school, in which case they've already got a knife and therefor have no need of the religiously important knife other than some form of religion related torment. there's also the fact that the parents contacted the school first, rather than just hoping no one would notice.
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Post by: Hordini
ZultanQ wrote:
Because this would be a non-issue if religious freedom in the west was actually respected. When Christians attempt exercise religious freedom at public schools they are ridiculed, while a California school recently had "let's all dress up like Muslims day".
And before anybody says it (again), I'm not a Christian, or financially privileged, or whatever straw man you already cooked up in your head about me.
How are Christians ridiculed for exercising their religious freedom in school? They are allowed to exercise their religious freedom just like anyone else.
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Post by: ZultanQ
Hordini wrote: ZultanQ wrote:
Because this would be a non-issue if religious freedom in the west was actually respected. When Christians attempt exercise religious freedom at public schools they are ridiculed, while a California school recently had "let's all dress up like Muslims day".
And before anybody says it (again), I'm not a Christian, or financially privileged, or whatever straw man you already cooked up in your head about me.
How are Christians ridiculed for exercising their religious freedom in school? They are allowed to exercise their religious freedom just like anyone else.
I suppose I could write an entire treatise on the current state of American religious liberties (spoiler: they're being banned at state and federal levels in many controversies as of late) but I'd just as soon point you to Google. Some keywords you may find helpful: "school prayer" "Houston sermon controversy" "supreme court school".
I guess my dilemma is that I post in off-topic threads that aren't related to wargames, but I don't want to spend hours purveying basic knowledge to others. Maybe it's my fault for browsing this section of the site. My apologies if this seems abrasive but if honesty is my biggest fault here then I'm okay with that.
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Post by: Co'tor Shas
ZultanQ wrote: Hordini wrote: ZultanQ wrote:Year 1850: Kids chop wood at school with axes, are taught to use muskets, and learn common sense.
Year 2014: There are people in this country who want to ban pocket knives from school, and also have the nerve to call themselves men.
Normally I'm against the pushing of "diversity" in school (i.e. this Sikh religion) because this is often translates to "let's promote things that aren't Christianity because BOOOOOO white people religion", but I have to side with the Sikh kid on this. The fact that there are people afraid of pocket knives just goes to show how effective the government/police state/liberalization/leftists/whatever you want this boogeyman to be has turned the population into a frightened lamb hiding in a bubble of "safety". It's baffling, really.
If you think kids taking pocket knives to school presents a significant danger to them, considering the millions of legitimate dangers that kids endure at school and in daily life since society's inception, I invite you to reevaluate your priorities.
How is allowing a Sikh kid to practice his religion "pushing diversity" in school?
Because this would be a non-issue if religious freedom in the west was actually respected. When Christians attempt exercise religious freedom at public schools they are ridiculed, while a California school recently had "let's all dress up like Muslims day".
And before anybody says it (again), I'm not a Christian, or financially privileged, or whatever straw man you already cooked up in your head about me.
Christian individuals are not stopped from practicing at school. Public entites, such as pubic schools, are not allowed, as the separation of church ans state. I assume that is what you are talking about.
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Post by: Hordini
ZultanQ wrote: Hordini wrote: ZultanQ wrote:
Because this would be a non-issue if religious freedom in the west was actually respected. When Christians attempt exercise religious freedom at public schools they are ridiculed, while a California school recently had "let's all dress up like Muslims day".
And before anybody says it (again), I'm not a Christian, or financially privileged, or whatever straw man you already cooked up in your head about me.
How are Christians ridiculed for exercising their religious freedom in school? They are allowed to exercise their religious freedom just like anyone else.
I suppose I could write an entire treatise on the current state of American religious liberties (spoiler: they're being banned at state and federal levels in many controversies as of late) but I'd just as soon point you to Google. Some keywords you may find helpful: "school prayer" "Houston sermon controversy" "supreme court school".
I guess my dilemma is that I post in off-topic threads that aren't related to wargames, but I don't want to spend hours purveying basic knowledge to others. Maybe it's my fault for browsing this section of the site. My apologies if this seems abrasive but if honesty is my biggest fault here then I'm okay with that.
As someone who has worked in public schools, there is nothing prohibiting individual students from praying while at school.
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Post by: ZultanQ
Hordini wrote: ZultanQ wrote: Hordini wrote: ZultanQ wrote:
Because this would be a non-issue if religious freedom in the west was actually respected. When Christians attempt exercise religious freedom at public schools they are ridiculed, while a California school recently had "let's all dress up like Muslims day".
And before anybody says it (again), I'm not a Christian, or financially privileged, or whatever straw man you already cooked up in your head about me.
How are Christians ridiculed for exercising their religious freedom in school? They are allowed to exercise their religious freedom just like anyone else.
I suppose I could write an entire treatise on the current state of American religious liberties (spoiler: they're being banned at state and federal levels in many controversies as of late) but I'd just as soon point you to Google. Some keywords you may find helpful: "school prayer" "Houston sermon controversy" "supreme court school".
I guess my dilemma is that I post in off-topic threads that aren't related to wargames, but I don't want to spend hours purveying basic knowledge to others. Maybe it's my fault for browsing this section of the site. My apologies if this seems abrasive but if honesty is my biggest fault here then I'm okay with that.
As someone who has worked in public schools, there is nothing prohibiting individual students from praying while at school.
As someone who can read, listen, and see (not saying that you can't, I'm just saying that anecdotes are pointless here,) there are most certainly public schools in this country where prayer is effectively banned. Again, I'm not going to bother providing links to common knowledge, but instead suggest that your own claims should be informed, because arguing about this besides the point of the thread.
Should a kid carry a dagger to class? I don't see why not, modern kirpans aren't giant machetes. I'd say that the emasculation of children is a much larger threat. I wouldn't want to be a kid raised to be afraid of pocket knives.
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Post by: SilverMK2
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:There is at least one VERY noticeable difference...
When was the last time that anyone can remember the News reporting on a terror attack by Sikh extremists? I sure as hell can't remember.
Islam on the other hand...I read, hear or see stories about Islamic extremism on a weekly basis.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalistan_movement
Politics and religion go hand in hand when you have areas with a high religious population. Violence and activity go through cycles. The relatively small number of Sikhs and their general concentration mean that they do not come into conflict with the west too much. Unlike Islam which is a much larger group with multiple states and factions coming into contact with many other states and factions, many of whom own land stuffed full of oil...
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Post by: Ouze
ZultanQ wrote: there are most certainly public schools in this country where prayer is effectively banned. Again, I'm not going to bother providing links to common knowledge, but instead suggest that your own claims should be informed, because arguing about this besides the point of the thread
"I'm going to make an argument, get called on it, and then refused to defend it, pointing you to google instead to make my argument for me"
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Post by: ZultanQ
Ouze wrote: ZultanQ wrote: there are most certainly public schools in this country where prayer is effectively banned. Again, I'm not going to bother providing links to common knowledge, but instead suggest that your own claims should be informed, because arguing about this besides the point of the thread
"I'm going to make an argument, get called on it, and then refused to defend it, pointing you to google instead to make my argument for me"
I should just let this go and stop posting but the bait is too delicious. Basically, it's like I'm in a kindergarten classroom arguing about melting polar ice caps, then some kid yells BUT SANTA LIVES THERE AND HE WON'T ALLOW IT. Everybody knows that Santa does not exist, but now I have stop and argue about Santa because I'm talking to a bunch of kids.
If you are going to deny that prayer is frowned upon in many American public schools and has been effectively banned in more liberal areas, then you are ignorant of an entire wave of current events and worse, you are stubbornly defending your ignorance. I shouldn't have to explain myself on this. Why do the people on the internet do this? What could you possibly gain?
If anybody would like to weigh in on my actual contribution to the thread's real topic, though, I'm all ears.
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Post by: d-usa
So to summarize
ZultanQ wrote:
I should just let this go and stop posting but the bait is too delicious. Basically, it's like I'm in a kindergarten classroom arguing about melting polar ice caps, then some kid yells BUT SANTA LIVES THERE AND HE WON'T ALLOW IT. Everybody knows that Santa does not exist, but now I have stop and argue about Santa because I'm talking to a bunch of kids.
Except the argument would be you talking about the melting ice caps, somebody asking if you have any proof that the ice caps are melting, and then you yelling WHAT ARE YOU STUPID AND BELIEVE IN SANTA and then refusing to actually post any evidence backing up your position.
If you are going to deny that prayer is frowned upon in many American public schools and has been effectively banned in more liberal areas,
Moving the goal post already from "prayer banned" to "prayer is frowned upon"?
then you are ignorant of an entire wave of current events and worse, you are stubbornly defending your ignorance.
Some name calling.
I shouldn't have to explain myself on this.
You shouldn't actually have to back up anything you claim to be the truth?
Why do the people on the internet do this? What could you possibly gain?
We could gain a real discussion based on facts.
If anybody would like to weigh in on my actual contribution to the thread's real topic, though, I'm all ears.
Make an actual fact based contribution instead of a random statement and we'll get right on it. Automatically Appended Next Post: Edited to add:
It is my personal experience that anytime I have heard somebody going on and on about prayer or Christianity being banned in school it turns out that what is actually happening was that a public school organized or school led prayer or religious observance was not allowed and that people are simply unable to recognize that "no, the teacher is not allowed to stand in front of the class to lead a prayer" or "no, the school cannot broadcast a communal prayer over the intercom system before a football game" does not mean that students cannot personally pray in school or read the Bible.
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Post by: purplefood
Hordini wrote:They say there are plenty of Sikhs, both students and staff, who have carried Kirpans to school for years without incident.
I have zero problem with this.
If it's been done for years without incident I fail to see the issue.
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Post by: Iron_Captain
Wait guys, wait! I've got the solution.
We should arm all kids with knives, so that they can defend themselves against the religious kids that carry knives when neccessary. Of course, those kids also need to be able to defend themselves from the government (i.e. school) so that is one more reason to give them weapons. In fact, we should not just give them knifes, we should give them guns!
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Knives schmives!
Chakrams! It's all about the chakrams!
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Post by: dogma
"The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts..."
And yet political majorities still influence the courts, because judges are appointed by a political process; directly or indirectly.
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Post by: Iron_Captain
Sikhs should be allowed to wear chakram turbans!
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Post by: motyak
Stop. Both of you. OT posts culled, any further posting OT from you and it becomes an issue
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Post by: ScootyPuffJunior
ZultanQ wrote: Ouze wrote: ZultanQ wrote: there are most certainly public schools in this country where prayer is effectively banned. Again, I'm not going to bother providing links to common knowledge, but instead suggest that your own claims should be informed, because arguing about this besides the point of the thread
"I'm going to make an argument, get called on it, and then refused to defend it, pointing you to google instead to make my argument for me"
I should just let this go and stop posting but the bait is too delicious. Basically, it's like I'm in a kindergarten classroom arguing about melting polar ice caps, then some kid yells BUT SANTA LIVES THERE AND HE WON'T ALLOW IT. Everybody knows that Santa does not exist, but now I have stop and argue about Santa because I'm talking to a bunch of kids.
If you are going to deny that prayer is frowned upon in many American public schools and has been effectively banned in more liberal areas, then you are ignorant of an entire wave of current events and worse, you are stubbornly defending your ignorance. I shouldn't have to explain myself on this. Why do the people on the internet do this? What could you possibly gain?
If anybody would like to weigh in on my actual contribution to the thread's real topic, though, I'm all ears.
What was your contribution to the thread? It isn't fair that Sikh kids can be religious in school and Christian kids can't? Because if that's it, it is demonstrably wrong.
Christians aren't under attack in this country, despite what you believe. Kids can pray in school, they can read their holy books, they can wear articles showing their faith. My wife is a teacher in a wealthy and liberal school district with lots of Sikh kids and they get picked on. Last year, another kid pulled his Dastaar off of his head; which to them is the about equal to ripping a cross necklace off of someone and breaking it (really, it's worse because the Dastaar is required unlike a cross necklace).
If you think that schools not being allowed to lead prayers or require kids to read the Bible or any of the other stuff that is unconstitutional is Christianity being "oppressed," you should rethink your position.
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Post by: Orlanth
Actually dagger shaped jewelery is an acceptable interpretation of the Sikh faith. This option is strongly recommended to all practitioners in the UK, though the wearing of the dagger is still legal.
Because of the very strict knife laws in the UK this was looked into a lot.
IIRC you cant weld it shut, the item must have an edge but it can be of any size, so a miniature dagger worn as a broach is a good solution, its also good for the practitioner as it makes the item less cumbersome. Though from Sikhs I know the main issue is the mandatory turban, the dagger isn't anything like the same level of inconvenience.
Another option is to put a retainer bolt on the blade so that it can have an exposed edge but cannot be fully drawn.
Jihadin wrote:
What if someone has a cross who's length is dagger shape?
Christians dont get anything like the same level of social protection, often you cant even wear crosses even if not dagger shaped. That being said core Christianity doesn't have many restrictions.
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Post by: Gitzbitah
 Orlanth wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
What if someone has a cross who's length is dagger shape?
Christians dont get anything like the same level of social protection, often you cant even wear crosses even if not dagger shaped. That being said core Christianity doesn't have many restrictions.
Interesting- now I've seen rosary beads banned because of local gang affiliations, but I've never heard of a blanket ban on crosses. Perhaps individual styles if they are indicative of local gangs, but otherwise that hasn't been my experience. What areas outright ban all religious iconography?
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Post by: ScootyPuffJunior
Orlanth wrote:
Actually dagger shaped jewelery is an acceptable interpretation of the Sikh faith. This option is strongly recommended to all practitioners in the UK, though the wearing of the dagger is still legal.
Because of the very strict knife laws in the UK this was looked into a lot.
My wife said she was pretty sure that this is what Sikh kids in her school district wear at school.
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Post by: cincydooley
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Orlanth wrote:
Actually dagger shaped jewelery is an acceptable interpretation of the Sikh faith. This option is strongly recommended to all practitioners in the UK, though the wearing of the dagger is still legal.
Because of the very strict knife laws in the UK this was looked into a lot.
My wife said she was pretty sure that this is what Sikh kids in her school district wear at school.
This is what the two families my wife have had do.
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Post by: ScootyPuffJunior
 cincydooley wrote: ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Orlanth wrote:
Actually dagger shaped jewelery is an acceptable interpretation of the Sikh faith. This option is strongly recommended to all practitioners in the UK, though the wearing of the dagger is still legal.
Because of the very strict knife laws in the UK this was looked into a lot.
My wife said she was pretty sure that this is what Sikh kids in her school district wear at school.
This is what the two families my wife have had do.
While I personally don't have a problem with a Sikh child wearing a Kirpan, I understand that some people do and I think a dagger icon/charm/pendant or something along those lines is a fair compromise.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Given that Christians can pray silently inside their heads without any sign they are doing anything but thinking, it is difficult to see how Christian prayer can effectively be banned in schools compared to Islam where practitioners have to perform certain very specific behaviours such as washing, facing Mecca, and so on.
Back to the kirpan, it is basically symbolic and most western countries allow it to be carried in general public situations.
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Post by: Orlanth
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: cincydooley wrote: ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Orlanth wrote:
Actually dagger shaped jewelery is an acceptable interpretation of the Sikh faith. This option is strongly recommended to all practitioners in the UK, though the wearing of the dagger is still legal.
Because of the very strict knife laws in the UK this was looked into a lot.
My wife said she was pretty sure that this is what Sikh kids in her school district wear at school.
This is what the two families my wife have had do.
While I personally don't have a problem with a Sikh child wearing a Kirpan, I understand that some people do and I think a dagger icon/charm/pendant or something along those lines is a fair compromise.
For children yes, adults should have a free choice.
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Post by: Iron_Captain
 Kilkrazy wrote:Given that Christians can pray silently inside their heads without any sign they are doing anything but thinking, it is difficult to see how Christian prayer can effectively be banned in schools compared to Islam where practitioners have to perform certain very specific behaviours such as washing, facing Mecca, and so on.
Say that to the Eastern Orthodox.
You have to make the sign of the cross before and after. It is no respectful prayer without.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Are there many cases of Eastern Orthodox Christians being banned from praying in schools in the USA?
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Post by: dogma
ScootyPuffJunior wrote:Last year, another kid pulled his Dastaar off of his head; which to them is the about equal to ripping a cross necklace off of someone and breaking it (really, it's worse because the Dastaar is required unlike a cross necklace).
While I agree that is horrible given the Sikh child's assumed beliefs, you aren't in a position to state what is and is not required by another person's faith.
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Post by: Prestor Jon
Jihadin wrote:Zero Tolerance is Zero Tolerance
Because some how some way some idiot going to try to pull that knife out. Either the owner, friend, or idiot.
Zero tolerance is just an bureaucratic way for small minded people to avoid taking responsibility for doing their job and making decisions that might upset someone.
Being in possession of a knife doesn't make somebody become violent or aggressive or careless. If the Sikh isn't a dangerous student then him having the knife changes nothing. Likewise if a student wants to cause problems or hurt somebody he/she can easily do so without a knife.
Rules against having a knife in school don't actually keep knives out of schools it's just a CYA for the administrators. It's not like students are passing through metal detectors or getting freaked when they show up for class.
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Post by: ScootyPuffJunior
 dogma wrote: ScootyPuffJunior wrote:Last year, another kid pulled his Dastaar off of his head; which to them is the about equal to ripping a cross necklace off of someone and breaking it (really, it's worse because the Dastaar is required unlike a cross necklace).
While I agree that is horrible given the Sikh child's assumed beliefs, you aren't in a position to state what is and is not required by another person's faith.
Are you just going to follow me in every thread to tell me how wrong I am?
You're right, I'm not telling people what they believe and further more, I forgot to add a "probably." While it is a generalization, what I said is pretty fair in regards to most versions of Christianity practiced in the US; the Dastar is required for a baptized Sikh, as it is an important extension of the Kesh.
But please, feel free to tell me how I'm wrong and you right because of reasons.
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Post by: CptJake
Prestor Jon wrote:
Rules against having a knife in school don't actually keep knives out of schools it's just a CYA for the administrators. It's not like students are passing through metal detectors or getting freaked when they show up for class.
My high school had metal detectors and I graduated in '87. My sons, when they went to county schools, had metal detectors at the middle school, and once in a while had random 'Search All Bags and Kids on the Way Into School' days.
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Post by: yellowfever
This is a bad idea. No reason for a kid to have a knife in school. Isn't religion and school supposed to be separate. If he can carry a knife for personal reasons then why not others. Knives shouldn't be allowed in school period. If the family doesn't like it then they should go back to whatever country started that. Of course I'm not religious so it's easy for me to say no to it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is a bad idea. No reason for a kid to have a knife in school. Isn't religion and school supposed to be separate. If he can carry a knife for personal reasons then why not others. Knives shouldn't be allowed in school period. If the family doesn't like it then they should go back to whatever country started that. Of course I'm not religious so it's easy for me to say no to it.
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Post by: Jihadin
I would like to see the memo allowing this. Where is the blade located on the individual while in school? Will the other students be given a heads up on this religion and reason why the individuals are allowed to carry a weapon? This is to"playing with fire"
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Post by: Kanluwen
Jihadin wrote:I would like to see the memo allowing this. Where is the blade located on the individual while in school? Will the other students be given a heads up on this religion and reason why the individuals are allowed to carry a weapon? This is to"playing with fire"
Says right at the end of the article:
In this case, the knife is to be kept under the child's clothes at all times.
"The knife can't come out. It can't be shown around. It needs to be underneath their clothing," said Auburn Assistant Superintendent of Schools Ryan Foster. "That allows them to express their religion without jeopardizing anyone's feeling of safety. If there are any problems, we will take it to the family, but we don't expect any."
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Post by: Jihadin
 Kanluwen wrote: Jihadin wrote:I would like to see the memo allowing this. Where is the blade located on the individual while in school? Will the other students be given a heads up on this religion and reason why the individuals are allowed to carry a weapon? This is to"playing with fire"
Says right at the end of the article:
In this case, the knife is to be kept under the child's clothes at all times.
"The knife can't come out. It can't be shown around. It needs to be underneath their clothing," said Auburn Assistant Superintendent of Schools Ryan Foster. "That allows them to express their religion without jeopardizing anyone's feeling of safety. If there are any problems, we will take it to the family, but we don't expect any."
Thanks Kan. I do not have a warm and fuzzy on this. The blade is going to be exposed and some ass hat going to press the issue (a Bully)
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Post by: Xca|iber
I wish my religion was badass enough to still have ritual blades in this day and age.
Though now that I think about it, I don't have to deal with all the ridiculous BS that elementary/middle/high schools generate, so maybe I should just go buy myself a sword.
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Post by: Jihadin
I'm a follower of Bacchus. My kid gets virgin grape juice for his lunch
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Post by: Frazzled
Iron_Captain wrote:I always carry a knife to school. As does almost every kid in my school. No accident has ever happened. I think people are hugely overreacting. Once again, I do not get the seemingly self-contradictory American attitude to weapons. You guys have a serious love-hate relationship going on
In this case, forbidding a Sikh to wear that dagger is the same as forbidding a Muslim to wear a headscarf.
Wait aren't you Russian? I thought all Russians brought T-34s to school, just in case the hitlerites get uppity again.
"Russia" is Russian for "don't  with us" Automatically Appended Next Post: Ouze wrote:I have no problem with this, but I similarly have no problem with a kid having a swiss army knife on his keychain or a butter knife in his lunchbox. "Zero tolerance" policies are the problem, not how they are applied - zero tolerance also means zero thinking.
Also, so far every single facebook post I have seen on this has conflated Sikhs with Muslims, which is equal parts amusing and depressing.
Excellent post. Automatically Appended Next Post: yellowfever wrote:This is a bad idea. No reason for a kid to have a knife in school. Isn't religion and school supposed to be separate. If he can carry a knife for personal reasons then why not others. Knives shouldn't be allowed in school period. If the family doesn't like it then they should go back to whatever country started that. Of course I'm not religious so it's easy for me to say no to it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is a bad idea. No reason for a kid to have a knife in school. Isn't religion and school supposed to be separate. If he can carry a knife for personal reasons then why not others. Knives shouldn't be allowed in school period. If the family doesn't like it then they should go back to whatever country started that. Of course I'm not religious so it's easy for me to say no to it.
Horsepoop. No reason a kid shouldn't have a SWA or similar apple cutter.
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Post by: dogma
I'm not following you around. We simply take in interest in the same sorts of threads, and generally have opposing points of view. That's the sort of thing that happens on discussion forums.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
You're right, I'm not telling people what they believe and further more, I forgot to add a "probably." While it is a generalization, what I said is pretty fair in regards to most versions of Christianity practiced in the US; the Dastar is required for a baptized Sikh, as it is an important extension of the Kesh.
Many Sikh's cut their hair and forgo turbans for a variety of reasons while still remaining Sihks, so clearly adherence to symbols of the Kesh is not universally required; even if some elements of the religion lament its absence.
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Post by: Prestor Jon
CptJake wrote:Prestor Jon wrote:
Rules against having a knife in school don't actually keep knives out of schools it's just a CYA for the administrators. It's not like students are passing through metal detectors or getting freaked when they show up for class.
My high school had metal detectors and I graduated in '87. My sons, when they went to county schools, had metal detectors at the middle school, and once in a while had random 'Search All Bags and Kids on the Way Into School' days.
The schools I attended for K-12 in TX, PA and NJ didn't have any nor do the schools in my county in NC. I've heard of them being in some of the inner city schools in NJ but never actually seen one. I realize some schools do have them but it certainly seems to be a minority.
I suppose even in the instance of having metal detectors a student with enough motivation to hurt classmates could just go through the trouble of buying or making a non metallic blade.
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Post by: dogma
 Frazzled wrote:
Horsepoop. No reason a kid shouldn't have a SWA or similar apple cutter.
Something like the classic would be fine, but anything larger is problematic.
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Post by: Frazzled
dogma wrote: Frazzled wrote:
Horsepoop. No reason a kid shouldn't have a SWA or similar apple cutter.
Something like the classic would be fine, but anything larger is problematic.
I can live with that.
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Post by: dogma
Prestor Jon wrote:
I suppose even in the instance of having metal detectors a student with enough motivation to hurt classmates could just go through the trouble of buying or making a non metallic blade.
Made really easy if your school has a decent woodshop. Though the argument there is that the materials in a woodshop are necessary for education (much like pens, pencils, and textbooks) while a large, sharp knife is not.
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Post by: the shrouded lord
pah! I can cut my apple fine with my screwdriver, thank you very much. don't need your fancy "pocket-knives" or watches for that matter!
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Post by: Ouze
Prestor Jon wrote:The schools I attended for K-12 in TX, PA and NJ didn't have any nor do the schools in my county in NC. I've heard of them being in some of the inner city schools in NJ but never actually seen one. I realize some schools do have them but it certainly seems to be a minority.
They were in my school when I lived in NYC.
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Post by: ScootyPuffJunior
Exactly, some Sikh people forgo the Dastar, so thank you for the exception, not the rule. However, we (I) was talking about a Sikh that does wear a dastar, so an article about those that don't doesn't really prove anything other than not every sing Sikh follows every single tenant of their religion (which is no different than anyone else really). Also, you too are not in the position to state what is and is not required by another person's faith either.
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
However, we (I) was talking about a Sikh that does wear a dastar, so an article about those that don't doesn't really prove anything other than not every sing Sikh follows every single tenant of their religion (which is no different than anyone else really). Also, you too are not in the position to state what is and is not required by another person's faith either.
Living up here near Seattle, I do see quite a few Sikhs and, like many minority groups in this area, they do gravitate towards the more traditional aspects of their culture. Not so much as them being "insular" but rather, they see the display and following of their religious tenets as being very important and set them apart from other people. Especially in this day where it is seemingly "OK" to discriminate against Islam/Mulims, "brown" people who aren't followers of Islam probably feel the need to do more things that look like a sign that says, "NOT A MUSLIM!!". What's probably more sad is that there are those out there who are so ignorant they cannot tell the difference between the Sikh Turban, and the Bedouin turban (they are functionally, structurally, and aesthetically very different), or cannot tell the difference between the follower of one religion over another.
As to Jihadin's comment on page 1 of children not really having "rights" until they are 18, I pretty much thought the same thing... As in, they "have" freedom of speech, but until they are 18, it is somewhat limited by the State in the name of getting an education. They "have" the right to bear arms, however they cannot actually purchase their own arms until 18, and DEFINITELY cannot carry to school.
As to the actual issue in the OP, I personally think that the Sikhs should be allowed to carry their religious knives in to class. I cannot recall, and seriously doubt that there has EVER been an issue with it being used in school, much less drawn.
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Post by: Prestor Jon
Ouze wrote:Prestor Jon wrote:The schools I attended for K-12 in TX, PA and NJ didn't have any nor do the schools in my county in NC. I've heard of them being in some of the inner city schools in NJ but never actually seen one. I realize some schools do have them but it certainly seems to be a minority.
They were in my school when I lived in NYC.
Huh, I guess the suburbs I've lived in were more atypical than I realized. I had friends in HS in NJ that had transferred in from PS109 in NY and I thought they didn't have them either but I could just be mistaken. I've also mostly been in older schools that hadn't changed much since my classmates parents attended, no two way intercoms in classrooms or central air, etc.
Regardless, it's still an issue of intent much more so than one of possession. If somebody really wants to hurt people he/she will find a way to do so and if somebody doesn't then it really doesn't matter what they might be carrying in their pocket.
Schools are safer than they used to be and there's no indication that the trend is going to stop. Given that the vast majority of students have no inclination to harm their classmates there really isn't a need to ban things like pocket knives since there's no reason to believe that students would suddenly be motivated to hurt each other.
USAToday
By nearly every measure, safety has improved and violence has dropped for students and teachers, according to recent findings issued jointly by the Justice Department and Education Department:•Since 1992, the rate of "victimization," which includes violent crimes such as assault and rape as well as non-violent crimes such as robbery, purse-snatching and pickpocketing, has plummeted, from 181.5 incidents per 1,000 students to 49.2 per 1,000 in 2011, the latest complete year for which statistics are available.
•Overall, the number of reported "non-fatal victimizations" has dropped by 71%, from 4.3 million in 1992 to 1.2 million in 2011.
•During the 2009-2010 school year, researchers found 1,396 homicides with victims ages 5 to 18. Of those, only 19 took place at school. During the 2010 calendar year, only three of the reported 1,456 youth suicides took place at school.
•Though rare, homicides, suicides and deaths involving intervention by police at school or on the way to or from school dropped 46%, from 57 in the 1992-1993 school year to 31 in the 2010-2011 school year. Over 19 years, researchers counted 863 deaths, or about 45 per year.
Researchers attribute the decline in school violence to a handful of measures:
•Heightened awareness of a school's culture, including how safe students feel there and how well they get along with teachers and classmates.
•A renewed focus on bullying and mental health issues, with teachers trained to spot troubled kids and intervene before bullying incidents get out of hand.
•Simple security steps such as locking exterior school doors, requiring all visitors to check in at the front office and offering students easy, anonymous ways to report classmates' threats.
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Post by: Frazzled
If I'm going to hurt you, its not with a pocket knife. I'm thinking spring loaded angry wiener dog in your locker. Open the door and BAM BITEBITEBITEBITE!
When you care enough to send the best, send Dachshundskrieg.
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Post by: Prestor Jon
Frazzled wrote:If I'm going to hurt you, its not with a pocket knife. I'm thinking spring loaded angry wiener dog in your locker. Open the door and BAM BITEBITEBITEBITE!
When you care enough to send the best, send Dachshundskrieg.
Wiener dogs, bred to crawl into badger burrows and defeat those ferocious beasts on their home turf. You'd attack another human being with one of those genetically engineered killing machines? You are indeed a ruthless and merciless adversary, you have my respect.
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Post by: Frazzled
The honor, is to serve.
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Post by: CptJake
 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
As to the actual issue in the OP, I personally think that the Sikhs should be allowed to carry their religious knives in to class. I cannot recall, and seriously doubt that there has EVER been an issue with it being used in school, much less drawn.
One of the arguments I've seen against allowing teachers who choose to conceal carry is that the availability of the weapon in the classroom potentially allows some disgruntled student to cap whomever he/she is upset at when they take the gun from the teacher.
I suppose the same argument could be used against allow the Sikh kid to bring his dagger. He may not ever be prone to use it, but someone else could take it from him and start a stabbing and slicing spree.
If we can't trust an adult to have a weapon and keep it from kids, how do we expect a kid to do so?
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
CptJake wrote: Ensis Ferrae wrote:
As to the actual issue in the OP, I personally think that the Sikhs should be allowed to carry their religious knives in to class. I cannot recall, and seriously doubt that there has EVER been an issue with it being used in school, much less drawn.
One of the arguments I've seen against allowing teachers who choose to conceal carry is that the availability of the weapon in the classroom potentially allows some disgruntled student to cap whomever he/she is upset at when they take the gun from the teacher.
I suppose the same argument could be used against allow the Sikh kid to bring his dagger. He may not ever be prone to use it, but someone else could take it from him and start a stabbing and slicing spree.
If we can't trust an adult to have a weapon and keep it from kids, how do we expect a kid to do so?
In some ways I agree with you... In others, not so much... The number of HS kids who could do what would be necessary to disarm me, if I were carrying, is SERIOUSLY low. And if a teacher is CCing in class (provided they are allowed to), and a student can get it that easily, it's not really concealed
Perhaps if teachers were allowed firearms in class, the school district would be "forced" to issue them the pistols from Skyfall, with the palm print scanner thing, and register it to the teacher for the year. This way, even if a student gets ahold of it, all theyve really got is a medium sized paperweight, or seriously small "club"
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Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae
Does the blade have to be metal? Could it not just be, say. rubber?
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Post by: Ensis Ferrae
If that's the case, might as well make it electrodes.... a Tazer knife!!
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Post by: Boyofdestiny205
Frazzled wrote: Iron_Captain wrote:I always carry a knife to school. As does almost every kid in my school. No accident has ever happened. I think people are hugely overreacting. Once again, I do not get the seemingly self-contradictory American attitude to weapons. You guys have a serious love-hate relationship going on
In this case, forbidding a Sikh to wear that dagger is the same as forbidding a Muslim to wear a headscarf.
Wait aren't you Russian? I thought all Russians brought T-34s to school, just in case the hitlerites get uppity again.
"Russia" is Russian for "don't with us" [
Frazzled wrote:If I'm going to hurt you, its not with a pocket knife. I'm thinking spring loaded angry wiener dog in your locker. Open the door and BAM BITEBITEBITEBITE!
When you care enough to send the best, send Dachshundskrieg.
Damn it Frazzled!!!! I had something I wanted to add to the conversation and then you post things like this and I just end up laughing and completely forget what I was thinking about.
Then I spend the next couple of hours looking for spring loaded wiener dog launchers.
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Post by: Bullockist
Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Living up here near Seattle, I do see quite a few Sikhs and, like many minority groups in this area, they do gravitate towards the more traditional aspects of their culture. Not so much as them being "insular" but rather, they see the display and following of their religious tenets as being very important and set them apart from other people. Especially in this day where it is seemingly "OK" to discriminate against Islam/Mulims, "brown" people who aren't followers of Islam probably feel the need to do more things that look like a sign that says, "NOT A MUSLIM!!". What's probably more sad is that there are those out there who are so ignorant they cannot tell the difference between the Sikh Turban, and the Bedouin turban (they are functionally, structurally, and aesthetically very different), or cannot tell the difference between the follower of one religion over another.
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Interestingly In Sydney I have found almost the complete opposite. I have found sikhs to be extremely secular in attitude even if they wear a turban and do not cut their hair.
It is sad that in this current age people cannot tell the diference between sikhs and muslims. I guess they are all brown .... even though they are caucasian
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Post by: Frazzled
CptJake wrote: Ensis Ferrae wrote: As to the actual issue in the OP, I personally think that the Sikhs should be allowed to carry their religious knives in to class. I cannot recall, and seriously doubt that there has EVER been an issue with it being used in school, much less drawn.
One of the arguments I've seen against allowing teachers who choose to conceal carry is that the availability of the weapon in the classroom potentially allows some disgruntled student to cap whomever he/she is upset at when they take the gun from the teacher. I suppose the same argument could be used against allow the Sikh kid to bring his dagger. He may not ever be prone to use it, but someone else could take it from him and start a stabbing and slicing spree. If we can't trust an adult to have a weapon and keep it from kids, how do we expect a kid to do so?
Give all the kids machetes? Or just call Machete... http://www.impawards.com/2010/machete_ver9.html
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