53523
Post by: Sining
Source: https://archive.today/xs4N3
Relevant quote: "The video game industry has a problem with gender equality and lack of diversity. Spelplan-ASGD (trade association for game developers and producers in Sweden) want to see if a new norm-critical rating system can help non-white-males feel more welcome in taking on the role of gamers as well as game developers.
Vinnova (Swedish government agency) has granted Spelplan-ASGD 270,000 SEK (=36,000$) to investigate whether it is feasible to develop a rating system for video games that would make it possible for those who buy games to choose norm-critical games and in that way put pressure on the industry. The idea is that the system would also provide support for developers to develop new types of games."
This just seems really weird. I almost expect them to start trying to slip things into the peoples water now.
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Post by: Rusty Trombone
If every in-game character in all games ever made were of a different race/ethnicity than I am, I would still find a govt. label warning me of such...troubling.
I'm a white male and have no issue pretending to be female, black, elvish, etc. etc. for gaming purposes. Besides, I can vote with my dollars, and who buys a game anymore without foreknowledge of what it is about? Video game purchases are too pricey to not know what you're getting.
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Post by: Sining
Non white male here. I have no issue in "taking on the role of gamers". Considering how big gaming is in China and Korea, I don't think we have a problem
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And not to forget Japan
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Post by: Torga_DW
Wait, i don't understand. Are they saying there's too many white men in video games or not enough?
Either way, a gender/ethnicity rating kinda disturbs me for a reason i can't quite put my finger on just yet.
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Post by: LuciusAR
Sweeden really is becoming a basket case of a country.
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Post by: LordofHats
Yeah. I can get behind more non-white guys (or at least white guys who aren't completely interchangeable with each other) but incorporating that into a rating system is kind of Bizarre. With a capital B.
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Post by: StarTrotter
 LordofHats wrote:
Yeah. I can get behind more non-white guys (or at least white guys who aren't completely interchangeable with each other) but incorporating that into a rating system is kind of Bizarre. With a capital B.
I'm going to have to third this. I mean I'd love to have less murderhobo 30 year old white grizzled white male dudes that are largely emotionless past revenge and all but this just sounds absolutely outrageous.
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Post by: Sigvatr
Hahahaha, oh dear lord, please tell me this is a hoax. That's the most stupid governmental idea I've seen in a long time. Really makes the "mental" stand out in governmental.
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Post by: Sining
 Torga_DW wrote:Wait, i don't understand. Are they saying there's too many white men in video games or not enough?
Either way, a gender/ethnicity rating kinda disturbs me for a reason i can't quite put my finger on just yet.
That's not really what they're saying. They're saying that they want more non-whitemen playing games, which is strange because we do play plenty of games
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Post by: StarTrotter
 Sigvatr wrote:Hahahaha, oh dear lord, please tell me this is a hoax. That's the most stupid governmental idea I've seen in a long time. Really makes the "mental" stand out in governmental.
Rated PG-13WM, PG-13CW, PG-13WN
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
This is weird. Automatically Appended Next Post: Sining wrote:Considering how big gaming is in China and Korea, I don't think we have a problem
Koreans do not allow non-Korean to play their (multiplayer) games. Literally. Unless they have a 6-month visa, iirc. I did not, and therefore I could not even create an account on Korean games, or IM services or anything.
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Post by: LordofHats
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Koreans do not allow non-Korean to play their (multiplayer) games. Literally. Unless they have a 6-month visa, iirc. I did not, and therefore I could not even create an account on Korean games, or IM services or anything.
I'm sorry hybrid, but if you don't play they're games their way, they don't want you playing them at all 
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
Meh. Because of that, we had to play US games. Therefore I had the honor of beating a Korean at a game of Starcraft: Brood War . Okay, he was the worst of the team, and really not a good player at any rate, but still I beat a Korean at Brood War .
At Warcraft III too.
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Post by: LuciusAR
I think I remember reading a story saying Sweeden was considering implement a movie rating system based of whether a film based the Bechdel Test.
A test which BTW The Shawshank Redemption would fail and yet The Bikini Carwash Company would pass.
Yes BTW The Bikini Carwash Company is a real film and one which, though comparatively innocent in these days of broadband internet, a VHS copy of was of great ‘assistance’ during my teenage years in the 90’s. Best not google it at work though.
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Post by: Aesop the God Awful
Tell me about it. You can't really be surprised at this point though, with the Moron Party sitting in the government.
#reelection2015
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Post by: nomotog
They took my idea. I think I made a post about switching the labels on games to be more descriptive about what the content is.
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Post by: Goliath
Sining wrote: Torga_DW wrote:Wait, i don't understand. Are they saying there's too many white men in video games or not enough?
Either way, a gender/ethnicity rating kinda disturbs me for a reason i can't quite put my finger on just yet.
That's not really what they're saying. They're saying that they want more non-whitemen playing games, which is strange because we do play plenty of games
Have you considered that seeing as how you don't live in Sweden, you aren't the target of this initiative?
I'm sure plenty of non-white males play games, but I'm fairly sure that you're probably the dominant race in your country and so many games will be made with you as the target, which won't be the case for non-white males or non-males in Sweden.
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
 LuciusAR wrote:A test which BTW The Shawshank Redemption would fail and yet The Bikini Carwash Company would pass.
Worse: Gravity do not pass the test, but Sucker Punch do. The Bechdel test is not aimed at rating particular movies, it deals with trends.
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Post by: LordofHats
Pacific Rim also fails test, despite Mako Mori being a suprisingly balanced depiction of a woman in a genre that is so macho centric.
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
Yeah, but the main character is male, and most of the crew too I guess.
One of my favorite movie pass the Bechdel test and fails about any possible other test. The only two named character having a discussion together, iirc, are two 10 years old girls. And that movie is awesome.
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Post by: Sigvatr
Pacific Rim fails about any test that requires a movie to be more intelligent than your average Bay movie.
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Post by: Melissia
Don't know if this is a good idea, but given the numerous failures of the various markets in the past decade, I don't think regulation is inherently bad.
Probably a better way yo do this though.
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Post by: Chongara
Sigvatr wrote:Pacific Rim fails about any test that requires a movie to be more intelligent than your average Bay movie.
You have no idea how happy I am to see you post this. 
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Post by: Sigvatr
In order to stop sky-craper high monsters, they decide to build a wall.
A GODDAMN WALL.
An 8th grader's homework is better written than this movie!
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Sigvatr wrote:In order to stop sky-craper high monsters, they decide to build a wall.
A GODDAMN WALL.
An 8th grader's homework is better written than this movie!
It worked in Attack on Titan.
Oh wait...
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Post by: LordofHats
Hahahahahahahhaa 
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Post by: Sining
 Goliath wrote:Sining wrote: Torga_DW wrote:Wait, i don't understand. Are they saying there's too many white men in video games or not enough?
Either way, a gender/ethnicity rating kinda disturbs me for a reason i can't quite put my finger on just yet.
That's not really what they're saying. They're saying that they want more non-whitemen playing games, which is strange because we do play plenty of games
Have you considered that seeing as how you don't live in Sweden, you aren't the target of this initiative?
I'm sure plenty of non-white males play games, but I'm fairly sure that you're probably the dominant race in your country and so many games will be made with you as the target, which won't be the case for non-white males or non-males in Sweden.
So what are you saying? The asians in Sweden are magically different from the asians in China, Korea, Japan, Malaysia and Singapore?
Also dude, wth are you smoking? I'm the dominant race in my country so many games will be made with me as the target? Wow, I guess that means all those western or japanese games I played totally don't count. There goes Diablo III, Civ beyond earth, GTA V, Fantasy Life, Bayonetta 2, SSB, etc. I mean, at this point you're trying so hard to be PC you're actually pretty reverse-racist. Here's a hint, I and most people I know play western games. My roommate is; right at this moment, playing Mechwarrior Online. So maybe you can stuff your 'suppositions' where they're supposed to go
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
I keep hearing that Sweden has lots of crazy identity politics-related laws. Does anyone have an examples, or a list?
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Post by: VorpalBunny74
Rated T for Tumblr
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Nuthin' but white men 'tilt he end of time.
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Post by: Ahtman
Well that isn't nearly as funny, so it loses points, and those are almost all side characters as well. For me it isn't that they are white so much as it is that that description (middle aged, male, white, brown hair, stubbly beard) is a common trend and frankly boring for as much as it pops up.
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Post by: Melissia
Showing a few examples doesn't prove the non-existence of an already proven trend.
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Post by: LordofHats
 Ahtman wrote:
Well that isn't nearly as funny, so it loses points, and those are almost all side characters as well. For me it isn't that they are white so much as it is that that description (middle aged, male, white, brown hair, stubbly beard) is a common trend and frankly boring for as much as it pops up.
Not only are they side characters, but most of them come from games where the main character is a middle aged, male, white brown hair, stubbly beard sort of fellow
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Post by: Sigvatr
Middle-aged is just the perfect age. Youngsters strife to be the badass action hero, middle-aged can easily identify with a character of the same age. And, as usual, male and white refers to the largest audience and dark hair is more likely identified with badass-ness than blond hair.
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Post by: LordofHats
Sigvatr wrote:Middle-aged is just the perfect age. Youngsters strife to be the badass action hero, middle-aged can easily identify with a character of the same age. And, as usual, male and white refers to the largest audience and dark hair is more likely identified with badass-ness than blond hair.
People can obfuscate with the silly myth that only white boys play video games, but a myth is a myth, and its been pointed out countless times that its a myth, along with the point that if young white boys are unwilling to play a game about a non-middle-aged white male with brown hair, we have another serious problem. \
EDIT: To help illustrate how ludicrous this gets, League of Legends has 121 Champions. A little over half of them are men. Only 1 is black, and Lucian was the 110th (somewhere around there) Champion released by Riot. Even some of the Asian characters look more white than Asian (Karma before her rework, Master Yi, Irelia). 121 characters. 1 black man.
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Post by: Seaward
 H.B.M.C. wrote:I keep hearing that Sweden has lots of crazy identity politics-related laws. Does anyone have an examples, or a list?
One of my favorite examples is their parental leave "equality incentive." Sweden came up with paternity leave in the 1970s, but women still continue to take about 76% more of the offered time than men do. So the Swedish government said, "Look, if you use your parental leave time equally, we'll give you a cash money bonus."
I've also heard a lot about their attempts to force men to sit down to urinate, though I don't think that's an actual law yet.
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Post by: daedalus
LordofHats wrote:
People can obfuscate with the silly myth that only white boys play video games, but a myth is a myth, and its been pointed out countless times that its a myth, along with the point that if young white boys are unwilling to play a game about a non-middle-aged white male with brown hair, we have another serious problem.
I'm pretty sure that's wrong. I remember hearing something a month or two ago about how all gamers are introverted white men who fear women. That's why all games are made to cater to them. I think I read it from one of the major game websites, probably Kotaku, so I'm pretty sure it is legit.
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Post by: Ahtman
I think you are confusing them saying that introverted white men who fear women are the biggest group that complain when the idea of change is broached with them saying that all people who complain are introverted white males scared of women. It doesn't mean that everyone who plays games fits that description, nor are all the introverted white males complaining either, it is just that of those that do complain they make up the largest chunk.
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Post by: LordofHats
And again, even if it were true that all gamers were introverted white men afraid of change, seriously, wtf? Why the hell would we want a multi-billion dollar industry catering to that? That's depressing.
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Post by: jorny
Maybe you should all read what the link says before posting. The Swedish government has nothing to do with this. And there is no new system being implemented.
It is the association of Swedish game developers and publishers who is funding a preliminary study that is going to look at what the conditions and possibilities for a marking that deals with issues of gender roles, norms and diversity in games. It will also look if there is a demand for this, and if it is, is the demand for something like a process marking like ISO or a consumer oriented marking.
Here is the press release:
http://www.dataspelsbranschen.se/nyheter/2014/11/13/foerstudie-kring-normkritisk-maerkning.aspx
Seaward wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote:I keep hearing that Sweden has lots of crazy identity politics-related laws. Does anyone have an examples, or a list?
One of my favorite examples is their parental leave "equality incentive." Sweden came up with paternity leave in the 1970s, but women still continue to take about 76% more of the offered time than men do. So the Swedish government said, "Look, if you use your parental leave time equally, we'll give you a cash money bonus."
I've also heard a lot about their attempts to force men to sit down to urinate, though I don't think that's an actual law yet.
There is nothing crazy about the the paternity leave. Please explain.
The second thing you have heard about doesn't exist. It is fiction.
Oh, and I would really like to see that list as well!
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Post by: Seaward
 jorny wrote:There is nothing crazy about the the paternity leave. Please explain.
I did. Your men aren't taking as much paternity leave as your women are taking maternity leave, despite the option to do so. So your government's trying to get them to (for no other reason than I can fathom than that it makes the statistics look better) by paying them.
The second thing you have heard about doesn't exist. It is fiction.
It's certainly been proposed, as far back as 2012.
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Post by: nomotog
LordofHats wrote:And again, even if it were true that all gamers were introverted white men afraid of change, seriously, wtf? Why the hell would we want a multi-billion dollar industry catering to that? That's depressing.
That is like my big worry with gameing. The idea that we are being given exactly what we want and what we want is just creepy. *shudder*
Automatically Appended Next Post: Seaward wrote: jorny wrote:There is nothing crazy about the the paternity leave. Please explain.
I did. Your men aren't taking as much paternity leave as your women are taking maternity leave, despite the option to do so. So your government's trying to get them to (for no other reason than I can fathom than that it makes the statistics look better) by paying them.
The second thing you have heard about doesn't exist. It is fiction.
It's certainly been proposed, as far back as 2012.
Isn't the point of paternity leave to pay them?
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Post by: Ashiraya
Wow. I have never heard of that before. Fat chance that it'd go through!
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Post by: Aesop the God Awful
 Ashiraya wrote:
Wow. I have never heard of that before. Fat chance that it'd go through!
Well, the headline is pretty disproportionate to the actual article.
Male representatives on the Sormland County Council in Sweden should sit rather than stand while urinating in office restrooms, according to a motion advanced by the local Left Party.
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Post by: jorny
Seaward wrote: jorny wrote:There is nothing crazy about the the paternity leave. Please explain.
I did. Your men aren't taking as much paternity leave as your women are taking maternity leave, despite the option to do so. So your government's trying to get them to (for no other reason than I can fathom than that it makes the statistics look better) by paying them.
The second thing you have heard about doesn't exist. It is fiction.
It's certainly been proposed, as far back as 2012.
Well the equality bonus (introduced by the then conservative/liberal government in 2008 btw) isn't the best of systems, you are right about that. It would make more sense to make more of the days of paternity leave reserved for the men if you want to adress the problem that women takes out more of the paternity leave.
That article is so badly reported it is not even funny.
First of all. County councils can't make laws. They just can't. They deal with budgets for healthcare, public transport and in some councils a little culture. Secondly, no party has anything (not even Feminist Initiative) have it as a part of their party program. And thirdly, county councils can't make anything illegal. They just can't.
A few council member in one county council (out of 21) wanted to (without any support from the national party) make the other council members in this particular county to sit down. Which would in this case amount to putting up a sign in the toilets in the county council building. And also, the Left Party had 5% of the vote in the election to Sörmland county council. So as far as attempts to force anyone to sit down it is pretty much fiction.
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Post by: Seaward
Yes.
Is this deliberate obtuseness or what?
Couples where the man takes as much paternity leave as the woman takes maternity leave get a bonus from the government on top of the actual paternity/maternity leave pay, because even with full, Swedish-style 410-day parental leave legislation, men still aren't taking anywhere near as much leave as women. Haven't been for decades, still aren't when offered full pay and a bonus from the government.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jorny wrote:Well the equality bonus (introduced by the then conservative/liberal government in 2008 btw) isn't the best of systems, you are right about that. It would make more sense to make more of the days of paternity leave reserved for the men if you want to adress the problem that women takes out more of the paternity leave.
That article is so badly reported it is not even funny.
First of all. County councils can't make laws. They just can't. They deal with budgets for healthcare, public transport and in some councils a little culture. Secondly, no party has anything (not even Feminist Initiative) have it as a part of their party program. And thirdly, county councils can't make anything illegal. They just can't.
A few council member in one county council (out of 21) wanted to (without any support from the national party) make the other council members in this particular county to sit down. Which would in this case amount to putting up a sign in the toilets in the county council building. And also, the Left Party had 5% of the vote in the election to Sörmland county council. So as far as attempts to force anyone to sit down it is pretty much fiction.
Didn't you guys just send someone from the Feminist Initiative! party to the European Parliament?
They sure have an interesting platform. And some pretty interesting songs.
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Post by: jorny
Seaward wrote:
Yes.
Is this deliberate obtuseness or what?
Couples where the man takes as much paternity leave as the woman takes maternity leave get a bonus from the government on top of the actual paternity/maternity leave pay, because even with full, Swedish-style 410-day parental leave legislation, men still aren't taking anywhere near as much leave as women. Haven't been for decades, still aren't when offered full pay and a bonus from the government.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jorny wrote:Well the equality bonus (introduced by the then conservative/liberal government in 2008 btw) isn't the best of systems, you are right about that. It would make more sense to make more of the days of paternity leave reserved for the men if you want to adress the problem that women takes out more of the paternity leave.
That article is so badly reported it is not even funny.
First of all. County councils can't make laws. They just can't. They deal with budgets for healthcare, public transport and in some councils a little culture. Secondly, no party has anything (not even Feminist Initiative) have it as a part of their party program. And thirdly, county councils can't make anything illegal. They just can't.
A few council member in one county council (out of 21) wanted to (without any support from the national party) make the other council members in this particular county to sit down. Which would in this case amount to putting up a sign in the toilets in the county council building. And also, the Left Party had 5% of the vote in the election to Sörmland county council. So as far as attempts to force anyone to sit down it is pretty much fiction.
Didn't you guys just send someone from the Feminist Initiative! party to the European Parliament?
They sure have an interesting platform. And some pretty interesting songs.
Of course it is a problem that men aren't taking as much paternity leave, when women have to both work and do most of the work at home. It also affects womens pensions. Are you being deliberatly obtuse when you fail to see the problem, or have you just failed to follow the Swedish debate on paternity leave?
Yes, F! got a seat in the European Parliament. What is your point?
Didn't you guys send like a majority of republicans to your congress? I hear they have pretty interesting opinions on global warming among other things.
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Post by: LordofHats
I hear they have pretty interesting opinions on global warming among other things.
Thats one way of putting it
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Post by: nomotog
Seaward wrote:
Yes.
Is this deliberate obtuseness or what?
Couples where the man takes as much paternity leave as the woman takes maternity leave get a bonus from the government on top of the actual paternity/maternity leave pay, because even with full, Swedish-style 410-day parental leave legislation, men still aren't taking anywhere near as much leave as women. Haven't been for decades, still aren't when offered full pay and a bonus from the government.
You didn't explain how it worked before so I was wondering, but I see what your talking about now. That is interesting. I can guess that the reason for the gab might be personal (Men hate babies.. unlikely.) Social (Men feel social presser that says they shouldn't use leave.) Work related (Men work jobs that don't allow you to leave for a year and not end up out of depth.)
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Post by: Seaward
nomotog wrote:You didn't explain how it worked before so I was wondering, but I see what your talking about now. That is interesting. I can guess that the reason for the gab might be personal (Men hate babies.. unlikely.) Social (Men feel social presser that says they shouldn't use leave.) Work related (Men work jobs that don't allow you to leave for a year and not end up out of depth.)
Sweden doesn't really strike me as the sort of place where people would feel social pressure not to take time off, but it could be that, I suppose.
Anyway. They have and propose a lot of, to my eyes, nutty gender politics stuff over there. That's the example I'm most familiar with. My understanding is that their paternity laws are pretty weird, too, but I don't know the specifics.
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Post by: StarTrotter
jorny wrote:Seaward wrote:
Yes.
Is this deliberate obtuseness or what?
Couples where the man takes as much paternity leave as the woman takes maternity leave get a bonus from the government on top of the actual paternity/maternity leave pay, because even with full, Swedish-style 410-day parental leave legislation, men still aren't taking anywhere near as much leave as women. Haven't been for decades, still aren't when offered full pay and a bonus from the government.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jorny wrote:Well the equality bonus (introduced by the then conservative/liberal government in 2008 btw) isn't the best of systems, you are right about that. It would make more sense to make more of the days of paternity leave reserved for the men if you want to adress the problem that women takes out more of the paternity leave.
That article is so badly reported it is not even funny.
First of all. County councils can't make laws. They just can't. They deal with budgets for healthcare, public transport and in some councils a little culture. Secondly, no party has anything (not even Feminist Initiative) have it as a part of their party program. And thirdly, county councils can't make anything illegal. They just can't.
A few council member in one county council (out of 21) wanted to (without any support from the national party) make the other council members in this particular county to sit down. Which would in this case amount to putting up a sign in the toilets in the county council building. And also, the Left Party had 5% of the vote in the election to Sörmland county council. So as far as attempts to force anyone to sit down it is pretty much fiction.
Didn't you guys just send someone from the Feminist Initiative! party to the European Parliament?
They sure have an interesting platform. And some pretty interesting songs.
Of course it is a problem that men aren't taking as much paternity leave, when women have to both work and do most of the work at home. It also affects womens pensions. Are you being deliberatly obtuse when you fail to see the problem, or have you just failed to follow the Swedish debate on paternity leave?
Yes, F! got a seat in the European Parliament. What is your point?
Didn't you guys send like a majority of republicans to your congress? I hear they have pretty interesting opinions on global warming among other things.
Psssht you misunderstand. Compared to Europe both of our parties are conservatives
I'll be honest I still don't quite get the whole problem with men not taking paternity if it's there and how it affects women's pensions, etc. Granted I can't complain with a law that apparently throws extra money for staying at home (I know that it's more taking care of the child but I had to say it!)
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Post by: Melissia
I don't know why Seaward sees the societal pressures for men to spend less time with their children as an apparent good thing, though.
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Post by: Manchu
This seems like a bad idea for many reasons not least of all because it could be used as a kind of 'yellow star' by people who oppose the underlying politics.
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Post by: Bromsy
 Melissia wrote:I don't know why Seaward sees the societal pressures for men to spend less time with their children as an apparent good thing, though.
Children should be raised by a nanny, the mother should spend a bit of time here and there with them and the father should be a distant, terrible figure who appears only when needed to unleash great wrath or an awkward pat on the back at events like college graduations.
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Post by: daedalus
 Bromsy wrote:
Children should be raised by a nanny, the mother should spend a bit of time here and there with them and the father should be a distant, terrible figure who appears only when needed to unleash great wrath or an awkward pat on the back at events like college graduations.
It got us through the 20th century splendidly up until the "hippy problem".
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Post by: Torga_DW
Okay, i've had a think of this, and what is the point?
Wanting to change gender/ethnicity norms and stereotypes in video games is fair enough. But sweden, last time i checked, wasn't primarily involved in creating video games (or am i wrong here?).
Assuming there are too many white guys in video games, what good is a rating system where almost every game on the shelf will be rated: white guy.
It seems a bit to me like having an atmosphere warning, where every day on the evening weather report they mention that the planet still has an atmosphere so everyone can relax and go about their business tomorrow.
I take no shame in admitting that the point of this idea completely escapes me.
edit: but i'm happy to upgrade that to "wow, what a stupid idea" if someone can fill me in.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Seaward wrote:I've also heard a lot about their attempts to force men to sit down to urinate, though I don't think that's an actual law yet.
C'mon, no. That's just... no. That can't be real.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
LordofHats wrote:Pacific Rim also fails test, despite Mako Mori being a suprisingly balanced depiction of a woman in a genre that is so macho centric.
She was a terrible character who almost got the entire party killed and stalked the protagonist though.
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Post by: illuknisaa
H.B.M.C. wrote:Seaward wrote:I've also heard a lot about their attempts to force men to sit down to urinate, though I don't think that's an actual law yet.
C'mon, no. That's just... no. That can't be real.
I'm not sure if it is real but I wouldn't be surpriced.
http://freefabulousgirl.com/2013/11/20/swedish-group-wants-to-ban-men-from-peeing-standing-up/
This is what one of the biggest newspapers write in sweden:
http://i1367.photobucket.com/albums/r788/Frutcher/Namnloumls_zps1e4b3888.png
I live in Finland and there is Putin in the east and Tumblr in the west.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lytZ7fYOlgU
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Post by: Sining
 BlaxicanX wrote: LordofHats wrote:Pacific Rim also fails test, despite Mako Mori being a suprisingly balanced depiction of a woman in a genre that is so macho centric.
She was a terrible character who almost got the entire party killed and stalked the protagonist though.
This. Mako Mori was one of those characters that were there so they could fall in love with the main char for no plausible reason. The only thing was she had some semblance of a backstory insofar as 'getting family killed by kaiju' is a backstory
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Post by: Goliath
Sining wrote:So what are you saying? The asians in Sweden are magically different from the asians in China, Korea, Japan, Malaysia and Singapore?
No, that their experiences with regards to media will be different.
The fact that you've played a load of western or japanese games means jack gak; that you're cool with playing whatever game you like doesn't suddenly mean that joe bloggs from Sweden, whom wants to get into video games but can't find any that match his interests, is suddenly cool playing as a middle aged, brown haired, almost bald guy. He might still find something like this useful.
Also dude, wth are you smoking? I'm the dominant race in my country so many games will be made with me as the target? Wow, I guess that means all those western or japanese games I played totally don't count. There goes Diablo III, Civ beyond earth, GTA V, Fantasy Life, Bayonetta 2, SSB, etc. Here's a hint, I and most people I know play western games. My roommate is; right at this moment, playing Mechwarrior Online.
Here's the thing. Your experiences aren't universal, and you aren't the target for this initiative. Even ignoring the fact that you don't live in Sweden, you already play games. You've already established that you're cool with games as they currently are, and you're absolutely fine playing whatever game you like. You are not the target for this. This is for people that don't know games that much, that don't feel comfortable playing whatever character is available, that want to play something that better represents their own experiences; just because this idea, which is aimed at getting NEW people involved in games, doesn't seem useful to you (someone who already plays everything), doesn't mean it is useless.
I mean, at this point you're trying so hard to be PC you're actually pretty reverse-racist.
If you want to call me racist, go ahead and call me racist. Don't skirt around it with that "reverse racism" bs. Though if you're going to call me racist, at least try and back it up with evidence, rather than just "you're trying to be PC but actually you're racist" that isn't a point, it's namecalling.
So maybe you can stuff your 'suppositions' where they're supposed to go
Charming.
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Post by: LordofHats
Sining wrote:Mako Mori was one of those characters that were there so they could fall in love with the main char for no plausible reason.
Really? Cause with as bland as the main character was, they needed someone else in there (though a Movie about those Aussies would have been sweet.. Or the Russians... Or the triplets. Anyone but Raleigh. Hell his brother was more entertaining, and he dies like five minutes in)
People always cite her as a love interest, despite there not being any such arc in the film. She and Raleigh are clearly close, but the movie lacked any romance whatsoever, which is the thing that makes her stand out as unusual.
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Post by: nomotog
LordofHats wrote:Sining wrote:Mako Mori was one of those characters that were there so they could fall in love with the main char for no plausible reason.
Really? Cause with as bland as the main character was, they needed someone else in there (though a Movie about those Aussies would have been sweet.. Or the Russians... Or the triplets. Anyone but Raleigh. Hell his brother was more entertaining, and he dies like five minutes in)
People always cite her as a love interest, despite there not being any such arc in the film. She and Raleigh are clearly close, but the movie lacked any romance whatsoever, which is the thing that makes her stand out as unusual.
I think most people lock her into the love interest slot because that is what they are expecting. There isn't anything that outright rebuts or enforces the love interest thing apart from our expectations.
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Post by: Sining
Goliath wrote:Sining wrote:So what are you saying? The asians in Sweden are magically different from the asians in China, Korea, Japan, Malaysia and Singapore?
No, that their experiences with regards to media will be different.
The fact that you've played a load of western or japanese games means jack gak; that you're cool with playing whatever game you like doesn't suddenly mean that joe bloggs from Sweden, whom wants to get into video games but can't find any that match his interests, is suddenly cool playing as a middle aged, brown haired, almost bald guy. He might still find something like this useful.
Also dude, wth are you smoking? I'm the dominant race in my country so many games will be made with me as the target? Wow, I guess that means all those western or japanese games I played totally don't count. There goes Diablo III, Civ beyond earth, GTA V, Fantasy Life, Bayonetta 2, SSB, etc. Here's a hint, I and most people I know play western games. My roommate is; right at this moment, playing Mechwarrior Online.
Here's the thing. Your experiences aren't universal, and you aren't the target for this initiative. Even ignoring the fact that you don't live in Sweden, you already play games. You've already established that you're cool with games as they currently are, and you're absolutely fine playing whatever game you like. You are not the target for this. This is for people that don't know games that much, that don't feel comfortable playing whatever character is available, that want to play something that better represents their own experiences; just because this idea, which is aimed at getting NEW people involved in games, doesn't seem useful to you (someone who already plays everything), doesn't mean it is useless.
I mean, at this point you're trying so hard to be PC you're actually pretty reverse-racist.
If you want to call me racist, go ahead and call me racist. Don't skirt around it with that "reverse racism" bs. Though if you're going to call me racist, at least try and back it up with evidence, rather than just "you're trying to be PC but actually you're racist" that isn't a point, it's namecalling.
So maybe you can stuff your 'suppositions' where they're supposed to go
Charming.
You're simply racist because you assumed you knew what types of game I was playing based on my ethnicity and country. "Games catered to my ethnicity because my ethnicity is dominant in my country" indeed. I mean, is there anything else you would like to tell me about my country and the people who play games in it while having not lived in my country?
As for the whole joe blogg thing, that's the thing I'm asking. Are non-whitemale gamers in sweden much more different than in other countries? Because to be honest, I know a lot of non-whitemale gamers and the number one complaint I hear about them with regards to games isn't "dammit, this main char isn't my ethnicity". Instead it's something about balance, storyline, online play etc. So here's the question, this article seems to think by putting equality ratings, it'll make nonwhitemale gamers play more games but that's such a stretch of logic for me Automatically Appended Next Post: LordofHats wrote:Sining wrote:Mako Mori was one of those characters that were there so they could fall in love with the main char for no plausible reason.
Really? Cause with as bland as the main character was, they needed someone else in there (though a Movie about those Aussies would have been sweet.. Or the Russians... Or the triplets. Anyone but Raleigh. Hell his brother was more entertaining, and he dies like five minutes in)
People always cite her as a love interest, despite there not being any such arc in the film. She and Raleigh are clearly close, but the movie lacked any romance whatsoever, which is the thing that makes her stand out as unusual.
The whole stalking thing kind of gave of that vibe. Plus the scene at the end where they're on that raft http://s17.photobucket.com/user/moviekoala/media/movies01/pacific19.jpg.html really makes it seem like they're in one at the end.
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Post by: LordofHats
I think Nomotog hit it. You assume it's romantic because that's what always happens in, well everything, but PR just doesn't go that route.
Though, now I'm thinking if Legendary will make a trend of killing off all the interesting people in its films and leaving the most boring member of the cast as the hero. They did it in Pacific Rim, and they did it again in Godzilla XD
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Post by: Bishop F Gantry
Sining wrote:Source: https://archive.today/xs4N3
Relevant quote: "The video game industry has a problem with gender equality and lack of diversity. Spelplan-ASGD (trade association for game developers and producers in Sweden) want to see if a new norm-critical rating system can help non-white-males feel more welcome in taking on the role of gamers as well as game developers.
Vinnova (Swedish government agency) has granted Spelplan-ASGD 270,000 SEK (=36,000$) to investigate whether it is feasible to develop a rating system for video games that would make it possible for those who buy games to choose norm-critical games and in that way put pressure on the industry. The idea is that the system would also provide support for developers to develop new types of games."
This just seems really weird. I almost expect them to start trying to slip things into the peoples water now.
Oh look another white CIS male telling "minorities" how offended they should be...
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Post by: Lynata
I like how the comments to such articles say a lot more about society than such articles themselves.
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Post by: Melissia
B-but Goliath, if the experiences of straight white males aren't universally applicable, the sky will fall! Automatically Appended Next Post:  Lynata wrote:I like how the comments to such articles say a lot more about society than such articles themselves.
That says a lot of bad things about America given the comments sections of any American site...
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Post by: Goliath
Goliath wrote:I'm sure plenty of non-white males play games, but I'm fairly sure that you're probably the dominant race in your country and so many games will be made with you as the target, which won't be the case for non-white males or non-males in Sweden.
Sining wrote:You're simply racist because you assumed you knew what types of game I was playing based on my ethnicity and country. "Games catered to my ethnicity because my ethnicity is dominant in my country" indeed. I mean, is there anything else you would like to tell me about my country and the people who play games in it while having not lived in my country?
No, I didn't. I assumed you'd have more games available. Not which games that you play, but which games you have available, and as has already been stated, I didn't make any assumptions about which games you play, only which games you have available. I mean, 'made with you as a target' can be as simple localisation, or translation, and even so 'male' is still targeting you.
Apart from the fact that you've just accused me of being racist for making vaguely similar assumptions to the ones you made in the OP, why is it suddenly that people that make a fuss about being annoyed at overly sensitive people (with regards to gender/sexism) seem to be really overly sensitive at the moment?
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Post by: Seaward
Melissia wrote:I don't know why Seaward sees the societal pressures for men to spend less time with their children as an apparent good thing, though.
I don't know why Melissia thinks Seaward attributes it to societal pressure.
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Post by: Melissia
I assumed competence.
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Post by: Ashiraya
Melly, your sig is cut off. It's probably too big, unless something is wrong with my browser.
As for the topic, I would see nothing wrong with additional incentives given for a thing like this.
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Post by: Melissia
There, fixed I think. Thanks. It'll still be cut off if you zoom in though.
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Post by: Rusty Trombone
Seaward wrote:
I've also heard a lot about their attempts to force men to sit down to urinate, though I don't think that's an actual law yet.
How does one force a man to do this...without getting squishy shoes, that is? And what if they're in a locked stall? Pass them a summons under the divider?
I also wonder if a counter proposal that all women should be forced to stand whilst going could gain traction. That should highlight the stupidity of this all.
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Post by: Sigvatr
Rusty Trombone wrote: I also wonder if a counter proposal that all women should be forced to stand whilst going could gain traction.
Women peeing standing? Looks like it would rather cause less traction...if you catch my drift.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
So yeah, the whole "vote with your wallet" thing... wouldn't this allow consumers to make a more informed choice, thus making it easier to, in fact, vote with their wallets? Why is that bad?
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Post by: jorny
It is interesting how many that fails with reading in this thread. There is no movement in Sweden that tries to force men to sit down and pee. It is not a thing. And it has certainly not, as Seaward implies been several attempts to do this.
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Post by: Da Boss
It's pretty hilarious to watch people trying to cling to their preconceptions that they "heard" sometime.
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
Sining wrote:So what are you saying? The asians in Sweden are magically different from the asians in China, Korea, Japan, Malaysia and Singapore?
Not “magically different”, but yeah, they live pretty different experiences. jorny wrote:Maybe you should all read what the link says before posting.
Maybe some of us do not read Swedish  . Sigvatr wrote:and dark hair is more likely identified with badass-ness than blond hair.
Thor? Duke Nukem?
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Post by: Sigvatr
Thor has red hair.
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Post by: Lynata
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:jorny wrote:Maybe you should all read what the link says before posting.
Maybe some of us do not read Swedish .
Well, google translate would be an option - or an addon for your browser. I'm going to assume that this is how Sining translated the article, too.
With such a loaded topic, it's always recommended to read the original article, as a lot of unnecessary controversy could be avoided this way (see dakka's reaction to GG).
Ultimately, people wish to see their personal perception and opinions confirmed, sometimes to such a degree of "desperation for confirmation" that they are willing to riot before having examined the supposed evidence.
Sigvatr wrote:Thor has red hair.
Not the badass comic hero, it would seem.
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Post by: Sigvatr
Well, Thor and Marvel's Thor are different.
...and how is Marvel's Thor badass in any way? He is a whiny, clumsy boy with daddy problems.
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Post by: LordofHats
I think you mean Loki
Thor has traditionally had good times with his dad
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
Not worth anything. I have a friend that is doing a PhD in natural language processing, and I like to tease him on how bad automated translation is. When I discovered through Wikipedia that Meiko Kaji has a blog, only in Japanese, I tried to use Google Translate on it, and it was pretty much impossible to even get the idea of what she was talking about. So, I sent him the link. He gave three or four other alternatives that were supposed to be better. We still have no idea what Meiko Kaji was writing about .
Automatic translation, it does not work yet.
Enjoy:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fameblo.jp%2Fmeikokaji&edit-text=&act=url
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Post by: Lynata
Sigvatr wrote:Well, Thor and Marvel's Thor are different.
Well, as far as contemporary cultural impact goes, I think it's fair to say that most young people talking about Thor are in fact referring to Marvel's version rather than the original myth.
Rather similar to how most people talking about elves mean something close to the Tolkien version or a derivative thereof, rather than the daemonic entities people feared in medieval times.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Not worth anything. I have a friend that is doing a PhD in natural language processing, and I like to tease him on how bad automated translation is. When I discovered through Wikipedia that Meiko Kaji has a blog, only in Japanese, I tried to use Google Translate on it, and it was pretty much impossible to even get the idea of what she was talking about.
Japanese is on a whole different level of crazy compared to Swedish, which is a Germanic-descendent language and thus related to English - not to mention the many different meanings that individual kanji etc can have, all depending on the context.
Besides, with such a reasoning you'd invalidate the entire thread. You could at least use the same method OP used to read the article just to communicate on the same level. It's certainly better than not reading anything at all and just trusting biased opinions to be true. If there is an error in translation, someone will eventually point it out.
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
Lynata wrote:You could at least use the same method OP used to read the article just to communicate on the same level.
I did so, just to check if that was actually speaking about something at least similar to what it was supposed to speak about. And it was. I also checked a few other articles to see what the site looked like. But I did not go into any detail because I did not expect the translation to be good or accurate or anything.
Lynata wrote:If there is an error in translation, someone will eventually point it out.
And someone did. And asked us why we did not read it ourselves. And the reason was that it was in a language we did not understand .
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Post by: Bishop F Gantry
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:So yeah, the whole "vote with your wallet" thing... wouldn't this allow consumers to make a more informed choice, thus making it easier to, in fact, vote with their wallets? Why is that bad?
If you need a rating on a game to buy it you probably dont know enough about the game to have a valid reason for buying it in the first place.
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Post by: Sining
Goliath wrote:Goliath wrote:I'm sure plenty of non-white males play games, but I'm fairly sure that you're probably the dominant race in your country and so many games will be made with you as the target, which won't be the case for non-white males or non-males in Sweden.
Sining wrote:You're simply racist because you assumed you knew what types of game I was playing based on my ethnicity and country. "Games catered to my ethnicity because my ethnicity is dominant in my country" indeed. I mean, is there anything else you would like to tell me about my country and the people who play games in it while having not lived in my country?
No, I didn't. I assumed you'd have more games available. Not which games that you play, but which games you have available, and as has already been stated, I didn't make any assumptions about which games you play, only which games you have available. I mean, 'made with you as a target' can be as simple localisation, or translation, and even so 'male' is still targeting you.
Apart from the fact that you've just accused me of being racist for making vaguely similar assumptions to the ones you made in the OP, why is it suddenly that people that make a fuss about being annoyed at overly sensitive people (with regards to gender/sexism) seem to be really overly sensitive at the moment?
Not so comfortable when the shoe's on the other foot now is it?
Let's revisit your quote here "I'm sure plenty of non-white males play games, but I'm fairly sure that you're probably the dominant race in your country and so many games will be made with you as the target, which won't be the case for non-white males or non-males in Sweden." You're making a lot of very very specific assumptions here, most of which are directly related to my race and country. It would be the equivalent of me saying 'oh, you're from UK? You must eat a lot of fish and chips'.
And secondly, your assumptions are totally wrong in the first place. You're kind of assuming that over here, we're more comfortable playing characters that are like us, which is basically implying we're racist and we like playing our own race. If that was true, I guess I should only be playing the monk and wizard in Diablo III cause they're asian in appearance -_-.
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Post by: Melissia
Not everyone enjoys planning out every single purchase. Impulse buys are perfectly acceptable ways to spend extra cash, and giving more information to people whom do impulse buys isn't a bad thing.
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Post by: Sining
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Sining wrote:So what are you saying? The asians in Sweden are magically different from the asians in China, Korea, Japan, Malaysia and Singapore?
Not “magically different”, but yeah, they live pretty different experiences.
Culturally yes, I understand there's a lot of difference. But I'm curious what differences would be present that would make them think that rating games in this way would be more likely to get non-whitemales to play games. Do non-whitemales in Sweden feel that there's too many white male heroes in gaming and that's why they don't game as much?
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Post by: StarTrotter
Melissia wrote:Not everyone enjoys planning out every single purchase. Impulse buys are perfectly acceptable ways to spend extra cash, and giving more information to people whom do impulse buys isn't a bad thing.
No, don't remind me. They won't do it! The winter sales won't take me! My wallet will not lose cash... it just won't!
Is there some notification we can add in about how if it is a movie game it's likely bad or something (so many bad games my parents bought me. So many!)
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Post by: Melissia
I suffered through LJN, too, I know your pain.
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
Sining wrote:Do non-whitemales in Sweden feel that there's too many white male heroes in gaming and that's why they don't game as much?
I have no idea, I do not know anyone in Sweden. What I can tell though, is that when we went to see Prince of Persia with best friend who is Iranian (she is French too now, but only since a few weeks!), she made a remark on how it would be great to see people that look like her on screen, or something similar. Even though despite the name, no-one in the cast was actually Iranian. And she is really, really not the kind of person that usually pay attention to this kind of stuff.
So I can totally imagine how some Asian people, or just Asian-looking people, in Sweden might enjoy seeing characters that looks like them in video games for a change.
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Post by: Sining
Isn't prince of persia the one with Jake Gyllenhaal as the main actor? And the evil guy was Ben Kingsley? So did she make the remark before or after watching the film?
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Post by: Seaward
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:So I can totally imagine how some Asian people, or just Asian-looking people, in Sweden might enjoy seeing characters that looks like them in video games for a change.
If only Asia had a massive game industry...
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Post by: daedalus
Sining wrote:Isn't prince of persia the one with Jake Gyllenhaal as the main actor? And the evil guy was Ben Kingsley? So did she make the remark before or after watching the film?
I remember him being a highly pixellated fellow wearing a turban. I think Jake Gyllenhaal would have been a little young at the time, so I doubt it was based upon him.
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Post by: Melissia
Seaward wrote: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:So I can totally imagine how some Asian people, or just Asian-looking people, in Sweden might enjoy seeing characters that looks like them in video games for a change.
If only Asia had a massive game industry...
Yes, because all people of Asian descent but whom have never actually set foot in Asia know Japanese and Chinese and Korean, and understand and enjoy the cultural quirks of the major game producing countries in the far east.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Bishop F Gantry wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote:So yeah, the whole "vote with your wallet" thing... wouldn't this allow consumers to make a more informed choice, thus making it easier to, in fact, vote with their wallets? Why is that bad?
If you need a rating on a game to buy it you probably dont know enough about the game to have a valid reason for buying it in the first place.
And you base this reasoning on...?
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Post by: Sigvatr
 StarTrotter wrote:
Is there some notification we can add in about how if it is a movie game it's likely bad or something (so many bad games my parents bought me. So many!)
The NES rainbow of doom. Never forget.
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Post by: ZebioLizard2
Melissia wrote:Seaward wrote: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:So I can totally imagine how some Asian people, or just Asian-looking people, in Sweden might enjoy seeing characters that looks like them in video games for a change.
If only Asia had a massive game industry...
Yes, because all people of Asian descent but whom have never actually set foot in Asia know Japanese and Chinese and Korean, and understand and enjoy the cultural quirks of the major game producing countries in the far east.
Except Hybrid never stated that at all. It was simply "Might enjoy seeing characters that look like them in video games"
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Post by: Melissia
So?
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Post by: ZebioLizard2
I'm sure you know what "Moving the Goalposts are" by now.
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
Sining wrote:Isn't prince of persia the one with Jake Gyllenhaal as the main actor? And the evil guy was Ben Kingsley?
No idea. Check Wikipedia.
Sining wrote:So did she make the remark before or after watching the film?
Cannot remember. She knew they were not actually Persians, though.
Well, to be honest, characters in Asian video games often do not look Asian.
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Post by: Melissia
That's not moving the goalposts, given that asking all people of Asian descent to play Chinese video games is patently absurd and ridiculous.
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Post by: LordofHats
Did someone seriously just suggest Asia doesn't have a massive video game industry? Is that just an awful joke or serious?
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Post by: Sigvatr
Pretty sure it was meant to be ironic.
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Post by: Aesop the God Awful
They're usually blonde and blue eyed, which I think is great. I feel better represented in Asian games than Western games
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Post by: Melissia
As an aside, there's been studies amongst professionals and scholars/researchers themselves, that has shown that even amongst them, there is a great deal of bias against women and other minorities, and bias towards young/middle aged white males. For example, Google conducted a study that showed that, when given the choice between two resumes, the only difference between the two being one has a masculine sounding name and the other a feminine, even senior-level psychologist/sociologist researchers were found to favor the male over the female and feel that it was the superior resume-- in spite of the fact that, by objective standards, they were exactly the same. These societal biases were ingrained deeply enough that it didn't matter if the researcher themselves were male or female, they had the exact same bias rating. It's not really hard to see this translating in to how game developers, writers, and producers act towards representation of minority characters. Given this, I can see merit in a law that adds additional information for impulse buyers to look at. (link is of a one hour conference that Google Ventures did on the prevalence of inherent bias and how to combat it, to prospective new technology entrepreneurs)
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Post by: Bishop F Gantry
AlmightyWalrus wrote:Bishop F Gantry wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote:So yeah, the whole "vote with your wallet" thing... wouldn't this allow consumers to make a more informed choice, thus making it easier to, in fact, vote with their wallets? Why is that bad?
If you need a rating on a game to buy it you probably dont know enough about the game to have a valid reason for buying it in the first place.
And you base this reasoning on...?
Well your not buying the game for its gameplay, not for its storyline, not for its singleplayer, not for its multiplayer, your simply not buying a game, your buying a product based on uninformed ignorance by the choice of a rating.
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Post by: Lynata
Bishop F Gantry wrote:Well your not buying the game for its gameplay, not for its storyline, not for its singleplayer, not for its multiplayer, your simply not buying a game, your buying a product based on uninformed ignorance by the choice of a rating.
To be fair, he didn't say he would base his decision solely on that rating alone. He could just as well make use of it as additional information, because frankly, most reviews don't really discuss these things.
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Post by: Sigvatr
Lynata wrote:Bishop F Gantry wrote:Well your not buying the game for its gameplay, not for its storyline, not for its singleplayer, not for its multiplayer, your simply not buying a game, your buying a product based on uninformed ignorance by the choice of a rating.
To be fair, he didn't say he would base his decision solely on that rating alone. He could just as well make use of it as additional information, because frankly, most reviews don't really discuss these things.
It wouldn't make sense to do. The reviews that do point it out are those frequented by their target group already.
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Post by: Lynata
Sigvatr wrote:It wouldn't make sense to do. The reviews that do point it out are those frequented by their target group already.
I as a gamer would be interested in such things, and I have no idea what reviews you are alluding to. So I guess I am an example for who such a rating could be useful.
But as the article pointed out, its main purpose would seem to be to put "pressure on the industry" by openly calling out aspects of a game that may otherwise only be discussed by fringe media, which I guess you were referring to with that comment.
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Post by: Melissia
Some people seem to get offended that this kind of thing gets called out more often.
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Post by: StarTrotter
Lynata wrote:Sigvatr wrote:It wouldn't make sense to do. The reviews that do point it out are those frequented by their target group already.
I as a gamer would be interested in such things, and I have no idea what reviews you are alluding to. So I guess I am an example for who such a rating could be useful.
But as the article pointed out, its main purpose would seem to be to put "pressure on the industry" by openly calling out aspects of a game that may otherwise only be discussed by fringe media, which I guess you were referring to with that comment.
Alright my apologies but could I ask how this would influence much of anything? I'll be rather honest, I'm not really sure how this would put pressure on an industry. So this would be a requirement of ratings when it comes to Swedish games? Would it be on facebook games, tablet games, indie games, or just AAAs and the others that go through them? Honestly I'm a bit out of the loop and a bit confused on the functioning of this. Then there's catches like The Witcher where I can see the fictional world mostly being somewhat logical (well as logical as japanese games not just having everyone have black hair but instead rainbow colors for everyone! ). But yeah, I'm honestly overall just kind of lost, partly maybe due to relying on google translator. It talks about pressuring, of some ratings to be critical of games with main characters that are white males? Some sort of way to support gamers to do other things or something, something about sales? I mean overall it just loses me after a certain part and I flop right on down. Then there's rating on computer games (but maybe not video games?) which largely are stuck to Steam and providers like GoG, etc. Overall I'm just honestly unsure what any of it means in the end and part of me is somewhat cynical that it will truly make a significant difference from what little I can understand from the claiming.
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Post by: Lynata
StarTrotter wrote:Alright my apologies but could I ask how this would influence much of anything?
Maybe it won't, but the general idea is probably along the lines of game studios and publishers wanting to see good ratings, so a system that calls out biased character design might engender developers to "think outside the box". Some designers just forget about alternate character types and could be reminded of these options, whereas publishers are used to pressure studios into sticking to established industry norms, yet could be persuaded to change their stance in the face of mounting public pressure.
It's a way to raise awareness, nothing more, nothing less.
StarTrotter wrote:Then there's catches like The Witcher where I can see the fictional world mostly being somewhat logical.
You can totally have a fictional sexist and racist world without catering to and reaffirming such stances in the players with stuff like, I dunno, the player character walking into a lesbian BDSM scene, or female fighters written into the game just so they can be berated by the male PC. *cough cough*
Not saying that these things shouldn't exist at all, but it hardly makes games like The Witcher stand out as a premiere example in serious storytelling.
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Post by: Bishop F Gantry
Lynata wrote:Bishop F Gantry wrote:Well your not buying the game for its gameplay, not for its storyline, not for its singleplayer, not for its multiplayer, your simply not buying a game, your buying a product based on uninformed ignorance by the choice of a rating.
To be fair, he didn't say he would base his decision solely on that rating alone. He could just as well make use of it as additional information, because frankly, most reviews don't really discuss these things.
Good luck finding two identical games, but this one has an mostly asian cast... for the miniscule effect this rating will have on affecting ones purchase.
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Post by: illuknisaa
Lynata wrote:StarTrotter wrote:Alright my apologies but could I ask how this would influence much of anything?
Maybe it won't, but the general idea is probably along the lines of game studios and publishers wanting to see good ratings, so a system that calls out biased character design might engender developers to "think outside the box". Some designers just forget about alternate character types and could be reminded of these options, whereas publishers are used to pressure studios into sticking to established industry norms, yet could be persuaded to change their stance in the face of mounting public pressure.
It's a way to raise awareness, nothing more, nothing less.
StarTrotter wrote:Then there's catches like The Witcher where I can see the fictional world mostly being somewhat logical.
You can totally have a fictional sexist and racist world without catering to and reaffirming such stances in the players with stuff like, I dunno, the player character walking into a lesbian BDSM scene, or female fighters written into the game just so they can be berated by the male PC. *cough cough*
Not saying that these things shouldn't exist at all, but it hardly makes games like The Witcher stand out as a premiere example in serious storytelling.
Pretty much all rating systems suck especially government ones. There are so many wild inconsistensies with the current ESBR so adding an extra layer of ratings which sounds extremely bad doesn't help at all. Just look at how devs "think outside of the box" with current rating system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95PcRNVX5gM
Even when rating system just suggests what devs should do it is still like blackmailing devs to do what some social group wants. Just look what happened to robocop.
And why not add try a rating for something that is objectively usefull information first before trying subjective ratings? Like "does the game have fov options? (Y/N)".
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Post by: Goliath
Sining wrote:Not so comfortable when the shoe's on the other foot now is it?
Which shoe is on what foot now? That phrase is a response to an accusation. I have made no accusations, unless you're saying that actually I'm the one that's exposed to media with my race in the majority, in which case, yeah. I know.
You're making a lot of very very specific assumptions here, most of which are directly related to my race and country. It would be the equivalent of me saying 'oh, you're from UK? You must eat a lot of fish and chips'.
Other than the assumption that you don't live in Sweden, I have made no assumptions related to your race and country that I wouldn't make about every other country, and every other person on the planet. It would be the equivalent of saying 'oh, you're from the UK? You must see a lot of white people on locally made TV and video games'
And secondly, your assumptions are totally wrong in the first place. You're kind of assuming that over here, we're more comfortable playing characters that are like us, which is basically implying we're racist and we like playing our own race.
No, it's implying that you're like almost every other person on the planet and you identify more strongly with people that you share similarities with. It's the reason that almost every game lead is a middle aged white guy, because of the (outdated) notion that the majority of gamers are middle aged white guys, so they're more likely to enjoy the game. Why the feth do you think there's so many calls for better representation of minorities in games? It's not because there's a quota, it's because people want to be able to play as characters that they have some small level of similarity with, and not everyone is middle aged, or white, or a guy.
I would also add that race isn't the only way in which games could be made with you as a target; gender is another, sexuality, build, intelligence, hobbies... I explicitly stated in my original post that race wasn't the only factor, by mentioning non-males as well as non-white-males.
If that was true, I guess I should only be playing the monk and wizard in Diablo III cause they're asian in appearance -_-.
I get hat you've already decided to add a subtext to my original post that wasn't there, and decide that everything I do is racist because of it, but seriously. it is not a statement on who should be playing as who, but on who will identify with who. Just because you play a load of games with a range of characters doesn't mean that other people are comfortable doing so.
Adding to that, how are we still having a discussion on whether Asian people in Hong Kong will have a different portrayal in the media compared to Asian people in Sweden?
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Goliath wrote:Sining wrote:Not so comfortable when the shoe's on the other foot now is it?
Which shoe is on what foot now? That phrase is a response to an accusation. I have made no accusations, unless you're saying that actually I'm the one that's exposed to media with my race in the majority, in which case, yeah. I know.
You're making a lot of very very specific assumptions here, most of which are directly related to my race and country. It would be the equivalent of me saying 'oh, you're from UK? You must eat a lot of fish and chips'.
Other than the assumption that you don't live in Sweden, I have made no assumptions related to your race and country that I wouldn't make about every other country, and every other person on the planet. It would be the equivalent of saying 'oh, you're from the UK? You must see a lot of white people on locally made TV and video games'
And secondly, your assumptions are totally wrong in the first place. You're kind of assuming that over here, we're more comfortable playing characters that are like us, which is basically implying we're racist and we like playing our own race.
No, it's implying that you're like almost every other person on the planet and you identify more strongly with people that you share similarities with. It's the reason that almost every game lead is a middle aged white guy, because of the (outdated) notion that the majority of gamers are middle aged white guys, so they're more likely to enjoy the game. Why the feth do you think there's so many calls for better representation of minorities in games? It's not because there's a quota, it's because people want to be able to play as characters that they have some small level of similarity with, and not everyone is middle aged, or white, or a guy.
I would also add that race isn't the only way in which games could be made with you as a target; gender is another, sexuality, build, intelligence, hobbies... I explicitly stated in my original post that race wasn't the only factor, by mentioning non-males as well as non-white-males.
If that was true, I guess I should only be playing the monk and wizard in Diablo III cause they're asian in appearance -_-.
I get hat you've already decided to add a subtext to my original post that wasn't there, and decide that everything I do is racist because of it, but seriously. it is not a statement on who should be playing as who, but on who will identify with who. Just because you play a load of games with a range of characters doesn't mean that other people are comfortable doing so.
Adding to that, how are we still having a discussion on whether Asian people in Vietnam* will have a different portrayal in the media compared to Asian people in Sweden?
*based on my badly remembered flag knowledge.
Hong Kong.
You can tell what the flag is by hovering your mouse over it.
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Post by: Goliath
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Hong Kong.
You can tell what the flag is by hovering your mouse over it.
Thank you, I was unaware of that feature, and evidently need to brush up on flags before the next pub quiz.
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Post by: Lynata
Bishop F Gantry wrote:Good luck finding two identical games, but this one has an mostly asian cast... for the miniscule effect this rating will have on affecting ones purchase.
Some gamers may assign different levels of importance to such things. Shocking, I know! 
illuknisaa wrote:Even when rating system just suggests what devs should do it is still like blackmailing devs to do what some social group wants.
So your solution is to continue catering to some other social group? I'm sorry, but in my opinion, gaming could, nay, should be about more than just selling a product. Not to mention that devs often get "blackmailed" by publishers either way. It's not uncommon to hear of studios facing much difficulty selling their idea of a non-standardised protagonist to the investors - an issue that may well be combated by said investors noticing rising pressure, such as via rating systems. In fact, publishers are even more sensitive to ratings than the studio, so much so that they write it into their contracts.
You could say it's at least as much about "blackmailing publishers" to back away from their idea of how a video game protagonist needs to look like as it is about "blackmailing devs" to consider characters catering to more social groups than just a single demographic.
illuknisaa wrote:And why not add try a rating for something that is objectively usefull information first before trying subjective ratings? Like "does the game have fov options? (Y/N)".
How is the supposed importance of FoV options more objective? Are you sure you're not just projecting your own perception onto others? Also, FoV can (and usually is) be discussed in a more detailed review - arguably, you cannot put every single bit of information on a box label. I don't see what's so illogical about limiting it to issues that are meaningful from a social point of view. Next thing we know someone will complain about stuff like stickers warning of harsh language or graphic violence.
Or ... is it because some gamers might feel uncomfortable with certain trends being pointed out for everyone to see? Is that what this resistance and this outrage are about?
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
 illuknisaa wrote:Even when rating system just suggests what devs should do it is still like blackmailing devs to do what some social group wants. Just look what happened to robocop.
I am not sure what is supposed to have happened to Robocop. The last video involving Robocop I saw had him shooting at soooo many rapists' penises it was painful. And quite gore. Is that what you are talking about?
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Post by: Asherian Command
Sining wrote:Source: https://archive.today/xs4N3
Relevant quote: "The video game industry has a problem with gender equality and lack of diversity. Spelplan-ASGD (trade association for game developers and producers in Sweden) want to see if a new norm-critical rating system can help non-white-males feel more welcome in taking on the role of gamers as well as game developers.
Vinnova (Swedish government agency) has granted Spelplan-ASGD 270,000 SEK (=36,000$) to investigate whether it is feasible to develop a rating system for video games that would make it possible for those who buy games to choose norm-critical games and in that way put pressure on the industry. The idea is that the system would also provide support for developers to develop new types of games."
This just seems really weird. I almost expect them to start trying to slip things into the peoples water now.
Oh dear god. 0.0
Really?
Why?
The entire reason why we have the current rating system is to ensure that kids don't get their hands on a game with graphic scenes in it.
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Post by: Lynata
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:I am not sure what is supposed to have happened to Robocop. The last video involving Robocop I saw had him shooting at soooo many rapists' penises it was painful. And quite gore. Is that what you are talking about?
He is probably referring to the scene where the corp that builds him makes focus group surveys in order to adapt Robocop to various groups' interests, with hilarious results.
The irony here is, of course, that as a movie itself, the "modernised" remake (I recently wasted the 90 minutes it takes to sit through it on Netflix) is obviously pandering to a very conservative audience, losing much of the social criticism of the original in favour of a dumbed down action movie celebrating police militarisation. Oh, and they've made his originally female partner Lewis a guy. (a black one at that, though)
[edit] Also, no penis-shooting in the remake. Instead you get corny action music in the first combat scene.
Asherian Command wrote:The entire reason why we have the current rating system is to ensure that kids don't get their hands on a game with graphic scenes in it.
What? Why would you assume that one has any effect on the other?
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Post by: Melissia
Lol yeah, the new Robocop movie misses the point something awful.
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Post by: Manchu
Lynata wrote:Or ... is it because some gamers might feel uncomfortable with certain trends being pointed out for everyone to see? Is that what this resistance and this outrage are about?
The trends are already there for everyone to see. The controversy is about interpreting them.
Another issue here is, who is the intended audience for this system? Current ratings system are for parents making decisions for their children. Is that also the case for "diversity rating"? Or is "diversity rating" aimed at adults? Can't adults make decisions about which games they want to play without a government- or industry-sponsored rating system?
My suspicion is, the proposed system is just intended as a shaming mechanism.
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Post by: Melissia
Just like many feminist topics, period. But talking about them, even mentioning that they exist, will still get a lot of hate-- just pointing out the existence of things made one person decide to send me a rather detailed and lurid rape fantasy about me.
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Post by: Bishop F Gantry
Lynata wrote:Bishop F Gantry wrote:Good luck finding two identical games, but this one has an mostly asian cast... for the miniscule effect this rating will have on affecting ones purchase.
Some gamers may assign different levels of importance to such things. Shocking, I know!
illuknisaa wrote:Even when rating system just suggests what devs should do it is still like blackmailing devs to do what some social group wants.
So your solution is to continue catering to some other social group? I'm sorry, but in my opinion, gaming could, nay, should be about more than just selling a product. Not to mention that devs often get "blackmailed" by publishers either way. It's not uncommon to hear of studios facing much difficulty selling their idea of a non-standardised protagonist to the investors - an issue that may well be combated by said investors noticing rising pressure, such as via rating systems. In fact, publishers are even more sensitive to ratings than the studio, so much so that they write it into their contracts.
You could say it's at least as much about "blackmailing publishers" to back away from their idea of how a video game protagonist needs to look like as it is about "blackmailing devs" to consider characters catering to more social groups than just a single demographic.
illuknisaa wrote:And why not add try a rating for something that is objectively usefull information first before trying subjective ratings? Like "does the game have fov options? (Y/N)".
How is the supposed importance of FoV options more objective? Are you sure you're not just projecting your own perception onto others? Also, FoV can (and usually is) be discussed in a more detailed review - arguably, you cannot put every single bit of information on a box label. I don't see what's so illogical about limiting it to issues that are meaningful from a social point of view. Next thing we know someone will complain about stuff like stickers warning of harsh language or graphic violence.
Or ... is it because some gamers might feel uncomfortable with certain trends being pointed out for everyone to see? Is that what this resistance and this outrage are about?
Show me two identical games now that this rating actually would work on favouring one of them, or rather show me two games that are similar enough that such a rating could actually sway the consumer...
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Post by: Manchu
Melissia wrote:Just like many feminist topics, period. But talking about them, even mentioning that they exist, will still get a lot of hate-- just pointing out the existence of things made one person decide to send me a rather detailed and lurid rape fantasy about me.
The hypersensitivity around this area, the hugely disproportionate reaction against even mentioning diverse representation of gender, race, sexual orientation, etc., is definitely a thing. I mean, otherwise we would not be discussing hypothetical crackpot Swedish legislation in the first place. That's a fair point and an important one. Now that we are discussing hypothetical crackpot Swedish legislation, however, it doesn't hurt to point out why it is crackpot. A rating system is inherently agenda-driven. The current system in the US and elsewhere, for example, is driven by the industry wanting to appear parent-friendly. In other words, the system is a way to market games to people who purchase the product but don't use it. For people who play games, the rating system is virtually meaningless. And when gamers do pay close attention to the ratings, we end up concluding they are arbitrary at best and cynically manipulated at worst. With that in mind, is there any reason to believe a "diversity rating" could actually accomplish anything other than transparently peddling a narrow agenda? I can think of one thing -- the 'yellow star' point I mentioned earlier ITT.
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Post by: Melissia
I'm not yet convinced it IS crackpot, however. You can't always tell something just by looking at the game's front and back covers, having more information about the game included on the cover is NOT a bad thing-- sometimes those covers get downright dishonest. Enforcing more honesty is a good counter to that. Just look at the struggle that they had just to put two important female sidekicks on the cover itself.
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Post by: Manchu
Seems like you ignored my points about the current rating system, which has nothing to do with "honesty." Basically, everything worthwhile that a "diversity rating" could possibly do would be done so much better by a blog or network of blogs.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: illuknisaa wrote:Even when rating system just suggests what devs should do it is still like blackmailing devs to do what some social group wants. Just look what happened to robocop.
I am not sure what is supposed to have happened to Robocop. The last video involving Robocop I saw had him shooting at soooo many rapists' penises it was painful. And quite gore. Is that what you are talking about?
I saw that. It was hilarious. That's the Robocop I know and love
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
Lynata wrote:The irony here is, of course, that as a movie itself, the "modernised" remake (I recently wasted the 90 minutes it takes to sit through it on Netflix) is obviously pandering to a very conservative audience, losing much of the social criticism of the original in favour of a dumbed down action movie celebrating police militarisation.
Then watch the not-modernised remake!
http://www.ourrobocopremake.com/
Might include quite NSFW parts.
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Post by: jorny
Comparing marking Video games to the holocaust. That seems proportional. Or not.
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Post by: Manchu
jorny wrote:Comparing marking Video games to the holocaust. That seems proportional. Or not.
I guess this is directed at me. No comparison with the Holocaust is intended. The yellow star goes further back, to a long tradition forcing Jews to "stand out" -- sometimes allegedly for their protection. In any case, the analogy here is that getting a "gold star" as it were from a diversity rating board could turn a game into a target for those who oppose the board's agenda. If I were a developer or publisher, I would not want my games marked by any politically motivated group, whether I agreed with them or otherwise.
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Post by: jorny
First of all, what has happened is that a preliminary study has been funded. This has nothing to do with legislation.
And the analogy is still way out of proportion.
Regardless of that you have a point considering the hate, threats and vitriol on the internet towards women in gaming.
I am not sure that a system of markings would be useful, and would rather see education and something more like ISO systems that are used to make quality checks of processes.
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
jorny wrote:Comparing marking Video games to the holocaust. That seems proportional. Or not.
It was so proportional I had not even understood what it was about. I could not even imagine some comparison this… weird.
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Post by: Melissia
 Manchu wrote:Basically, everything worthwhile that a "diversity rating" could possibly do would be done so much better by a blog or network of blogs.
And yet, clearly, said sources aren't doing the job good enough. While it might be ideal, true, it's not happening reliably enough apparently.
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
Oh, yeah:
Manchu wrote:Basically, everything worthwhile that a "diversity rating" could possibly do would be done so much better by a blog or network of blogs.
Do not tell GamerGate, because this would be an horrible, horrible breach of journalistic ethics!
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Post by: Manchu
Not really. Maybe you just don't understand it? The idea is that a mark is put on someone to single them out with the consequence of prejudice. I am worried about it because, as you noted: jorny wrote:you have a point considering the hate, threats and vitriol on the internet towards women in gaming.
jorny wrote:would rather see education and something more like ISO systems that are used to make quality checks of processes.
Education of whom? "Quality" checks of what? Who defines "quality"? Melissia wrote: Manchu wrote:Basically, everything worthwhile that a "diversity rating" could possibly do would be done so much better by a blog or network of blogs.
And yet, clearly, said sources aren't doing the job good enough. While it might be ideal, true, it's not happening reliably enough apparently.
Maybe we have different conceptions of the "job" in question. I am suggesting if you want reliable information about diversity in a game, the best place to get it would be from a blog or somewhere else with the space to develop nuanced thoughts about this complicated topic. Do you mean the "job" of making games more diverse? Like, as in making it the law that games are diverse?
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Post by: jorny
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: jorny wrote:Comparing marking Video games to the holocaust. That seems proportional. Or not.
It was so proportional I had not even understood what it was about. I could not even imagine some comparison this… weird.
I honestly thought that I would get the answer that the yellow star is a reference to something completely different.
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Post by: Manchu
jorny wrote:I honestly thought that I would get the answer that the yellow star is a reference to something completely different.
So you were just trolling?
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Post by: Melissia
Manchu wrote:Do you mean the "job" of making games more diverse? Like, as in making it the law that games are diverse?
Replace "law" with "goal", as in, the industry's own internal goal, not just externally stated goals-- then... yes.
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Post by: jorny
Manchu wrote: jorny wrote:I honestly thought that I would get the answer that the yellow star is a reference to something completely different.
So you were just trolling?
No. Absolutely not. I just thought that there was a chance that it was a reference to something other than hundreds of years of brutal oppression of Jews, because it seemed so absurd. Some pop cultural reference I had missed. Automatically Appended Next Post: Manchu wrote:
Education of whom? "Quality" checks of what? Who defines "quality"?
Do you mean the "job" of making games more diverse? Like, as in making it the law that games are diverse?
What I am refering to is the different ISO systems of checking management systems. Which is also what the press release says that the study will look at. This means that a gaming company could choose to go through a voluntary certification process which of course would require some education. These kinds of certifications are extremely common in all kinds of industries.
And still. The government and/or the parliament has nothing to with this, and this has absolutely nothing to do with any legislation and the state will have nothing to do with.
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Post by: Manchu
Melissia wrote:Replace "law" with "goal", as in, the industry's own internal goal, not just externally stated goals-- then... yes.
Industries self-regulate to persue benefits, including avoiding becoming externally regulated. What benefit would the video game industry reap by self-regulating about diversity? And what kind of disadvantages must be weighed against those benefits? As I have tried to argue above, I cannot imagine developers or publishers wanting to get involved with something like this. jorny wrote:something other than hundreds of years of brutal oppression
In a sense, that is exactly what we are talking about, albeit not just concerning the Jewish people but also women, blacks, homosexuals, trangendered people, etc. jorny wrote:a voluntary certification process which of course would require some education
Yeah but, again, according to what standards set by whom?
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Post by: jorny
Manchu wrote: Melissia wrote:Replace "law" with "goal", as in, the industry's own internal goal, not just externally stated goals-- then... yes.
Industries self-regulate to persue benefits, including avoiding becoming externally regulated. What benefit would the video game industry reap by self-regulating about diversity? And what kind of disadvantages must be weighed against those benefits? As I have tried to argue above, I cannot imagine developers or publishers wanting to get involved with something like this.
Apparently the Swedish developers and publishers since they have started all of this.
Yeah but, again, according to what standards set by whom?
This is of course a huge issue with all of these kind of self regulations and you have a very good point. In this case maybe the industry themselves. I know that some organisations in Sweden, sports clubs for instance bring in RFSL (The Swedish Federation for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Rights) for education about homo- and transphobia. Something similar could maybe be done with gaming. I don't know. The gaming industry neither. That is why they are doing this study, because they have identified what they see as a problem (i.e lack of diversity) and are trying to find a way forward.
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Post by: Manchu
Maybe you can explain more but from reading over this site it seems like these trade associations have two purposes: to interface with (1) states (i.e, lobbying) and (2) consumers (i.e., marketing), for the benefit of its members. In this case, Spelplan-ASGD successfully lobbied the Swedish state to subsidize research into (presumably self-) regulation, specifically to investigate whether it is feasible to develop a rating system for video games that would make it possible for those who buy games to choose norm-critical games and in that way put pressure on the industry
That highlighted part is a bit confusing. So Spelplan-ASGD wants to put pressure on its own members? How does that work? Surely if developers wanted to represent greater diversity, they would not need to be pressured to do so? Or do Swedish developers want to see more diversity but are afraid their games will be less competitive and so want the Swedish government to subsidize research into ratings-based protectionism? Or does Spelplan-ASGD not really represent the interests of all/most Swedish game companies? Suffice it to say, the motivations here are not totally clear on their face. But it does seem to me that these ratings are not about giving consumers clearer information about games.
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Post by: jorny
Manchu wrote:Maybe you can explain more but from reading over this site it seems like these trade associations have two purposes: to interface with (1) states (i.e, lobbying) and (2) consumers (i.e., marketing), for the benefit of its members. In this case, Spelplan-ASGD successfully lobbied the Swedish state to subsidize research into (presumably self-) regulation, specifically to investigate whether it is feasible to develop a rating system for video games that would make it possible for those who buy games to choose norm-critical games and in that way put pressure on the industry
That highlighted part is a bit confusing. So Spelplan-ASGD wants to put pressure on its own members? How does that work? Surely if developers wanted to represent greater diversity, they would not need to be pressured to do so? Or do Swedish developers want to see more diversity but are afraid their games will be less competitive and so want the Swedish government to subsidize research into ratings-based protectionism? Or does Spelplan-ASGD not really represent the interests of all/most Swedish game companies?
Suffice it to say, the motivations here are not totally clear on their face. But it does seem to me that these ratings are not about giving consumers clearer information about games.
The highlighted part is written by a journalist at idg.se. Spelplan never uses the word pressure. And they really didn't lobby for money for this. They probably just sent an application to Vinnova.
What they write in their press release is that the goal is more or less this:
...where one of the goals is to provide process support which will provide concrete assistance to game developers in their diversity efforts. So there is not a finished label to be introduced, but a study will lay the foundation to support the companies in future ventures. This is to help the computer games industry both directly and indirectly, to continue to grow and develop.
This is from http://www.dataspelsbranschen.se/nyheter/2014/11/13/foerstudie-kring-normkritisk-maerkning.aspx, Spelplans press release. I ran it through google translate and tried to make it a little more understandable.
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Post by: Melissia
Hahahahaheheheheheheheeee.... nnnnnnnnoooooooooooooooooooo.
The past twenty years has shown that self-regulation by business is pretty much a lie.
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Post by: Manchu
jorny wrote:I ran it through google translate and tried to make it a little more understandable.
Thanks -- but (no offense) I don't think the statement really clarifies how diversity ratings help the industry to grow. Also, you say Spelplan-ASGD probably did not lobby for the money -- so the Swedish government just gives out grants worth approx. 36K USD willy nilly? Or is politics the key? Melissia wrote:Hahahahaheheheheheheheeee.... nnnnnnnnoooooooooooooooooooo.
The past twenty years has shown that self-regulation by business is pretty much a lie.
LOL no -- ESRB and PEGI are examples of self-regulation.
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Post by: Melissia
While valuable, they weren't put in place in order to bring attention to violent or sexually explicit games in order to change the industry, so that is a bad example that isn't applicable to this situation. And the only reason the ESRB and PEGI exist was because of the threat of the government doing it for them-- without that, they wouldn't.
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Post by: VorpalBunny74
Manchu wrote:Suffice it to say, the motivations here are not totally clear on their face. But it does seem to me that these ratings are not about giving consumers clearer information about games.
I'm assuming their intentions are good - they want to widen the audience of games to include more non-white males. If true, fair enough, bigger pie and all that.
However I can't help but think they're skipping some steps. This won't get non-gamers to magically become interested in games. Diversity stickers don't help if the targets aren't in the store, or know about the digital distributors.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Manchu wrote:Basically, everything worthwhile that a "diversity rating" could possibly do would be done so much better by a blog or network of blogs.
Do not tell GamerGate, because this would be an horrible, horrible breach of journalistic ethics!
B-but, I thought it was about misogyny in video games?
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Post by: Manchu
You really have been ignoring my posts, even the ones you quote ... For example, you claim Melissia wrote:And the only reason the ESRB and PEGI exist was because of the threat of the government doing it for them-- without that, they wouldn't.
after I posted Manchu wrote:Industries self-regulate to persue benefits, including avoiding becoming externally regulated.
You quoted that post except the "to persue benefits, including avoiding becoming externally regulated" part. So, yeah, my suggestion was that perhaps Spelplan-ASGD is carrying out this research in order to avoid action by the Swedish government. But jorny keeps reassuring us that the Swedish government has nothing to do with this (apart from giving Spelplan-ASGD around $36,000 to do the study). As to ESRB and PEGI Melissia wrote:While valuable, they weren't put in place in order to bring attention to violent or sexually explicit games in order to change the industry, so that is a bad example that isn't applicable to this situation.
Sure but so what? Your claim was that industries do not self-regulate. ESRB and PEGI are examples of self-regulation. As I already posted: Manchu wrote:A rating system is inherently agenda-driven. The current system in the US and elsewhere, for example, is driven by the industry wanting to appear parent-friendly. In other words, the system is a way to market games to people who purchase the product but don't use it. For people who play games, the rating system is virtually meaningless. And when gamers do pay close attention to the ratings, we end up concluding they are arbitrary at best and cynically manipulated at worst.
So they are good examples of the motivation and result of self-regulation in the video game industry. In other words, it isn't about giving the consumer more accurate information about the product. Nor is it even really about keeping violent games away from minors, considering how arbitrary the ratings are.
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Post by: jorny
Manchu wrote: jorny wrote:I ran it through google translate and tried to make it a little more understandable.
Thanks -- but (no offense) I don't think the statement really clarifies how diversity ratings help the industry to grow. Also, you say Spelplan-ASGD probably did not lobby for the money -- so the Swedish government just gives out grants worth approx. 36K USD willy nilly? Or is politics the key?
No it is not very clear. Press releases likes to mention growth as a buzz word. But It is probably that they want to increase the recruitment base both to the industry and to gaming in general. As a side story I can mention that a lot of the heavy industry in sweden (steel, copper, mining etc.) is working very hard on diversity and gender equality issues in their smelters and mines. Industries that traditionally are very macho. Simply because they have found out that it is good for the long term growth and profitability of their companies.
The goverments set a budget for Vinnova, and may earmark a certain amount of money for some areas. Vinnova then hands out money to research projects. There might probably be some Vinnova project that deals with equality and diversity. You can probably find a lot more on this here: http://www.vinnova.se/en/. It should also be noted that the Swedish government can't influence directly how a state agency like Vinnova hands out money, for more information on this check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministerstyre.
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Post by: Manchu
 VorpalBunny74 wrote:I'm assuming their intentions are good - they want to widen the audience of games to include more non-white males. If true, fair enough, bigger pie and all that.
That kind of argument leads nowhere. The thing about companies is they exist to make profit. They don't need a ratings system to seek out and exploit untapped markets.
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Post by: Melissia
Manchu wrote:Sure but so what? Your claim was that industries do not self-regulate. ESRB and PEGI are examples of self-regulation.
Self-regulation at the barrel of a regulatory gun is what you're objecting to when objecting to the idea presented in this legislation.
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Post by: Manchu
jorny wrote:Simply because they have found out that it is good for the long term growth and profitability of their companies.
I don't find it hard to believe that companies open to diversity in terms of customers and employees ultimately do better, all other things being equal. My problem is not with that but rather the idea of regulating diversity in video games with some kind of ratings system. Thanks for the link to Vinnova. Does the press release mention that is how Spelplan-ASGD got the money? I got no hits on Vinnova's site for Spelplan-ASGD. As jorny pointed out, there is actually no legislation. A video game developer trade association got money from the Swedish government to do some research.
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Post by: jorny
Manchu wrote: VorpalBunny74 wrote:I'm assuming their intentions are good - they want to widen the audience of games to include more non-white males. If true, fair enough, bigger pie and all that.
That kind of argument leads nowhere. The thing about companies is they exist to make profit. They don't need a ratings system to seek out and exploit untapped markets.
But they explicitly state that they want to find systems and processes to support them in including more groups. It is not a system like PEGI or ESRB that is discussed, they compare it with KRAV, a swedish labeling for ecologically grown food, and the different ISO systems for process control. Maybe a comparison to fair trade is more appropriate.
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Post by: Manchu
jorny wrote:But they explicitly state that they want to find systems and processes to support them in including more groups.
What does a ratings system have to do with a developer figuring out how to make games with more diversity?
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Post by: VorpalBunny74
Manchu wrote: VorpalBunny74 wrote:I'm assuming their intentions are good - they want to widen the audience of games to include more non-white males. If true, fair enough, bigger pie and all that.
That kind of argument leads nowhere. The thing about companies is they exist to make profit. They don't need a ratings system to seek out and exploit untapped markets.
Oh, I agree - I think it has much more potential for negative outcomes than positive ones.
I was just making an assumption on why they want to do this. Playing Swedish Advocate, if you will 
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Post by: Manchu
Let's assume Spelplan-ASGD can also foresee all the negative outcomes we can. Given that, why do you think they would still pursue this? I'm not seeing how this is adding up. I feel pretty justified in being skeptical about this research and the more I think about it the more skeptical I get.
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Post by: jorny
Manchu wrote: jorny wrote:But they explicitly state that they want to find systems and processes to support them in including more groups.
What does a ratings system have to do with a developer figuring out how to make games with more diversity?
That is a good question. I think that they are probably been looking at stuff like ISO 14001 which is an environmental mangement system, and they want to see if they can find concrete ways to work with diversity and share knowledge and strategies. FInding tools so to speak. And then some sort of process certification might be helpful. It ceirtanly is in other industries.
I don't know how they applied for the money, or what they wrote. But since it is a government agency, all relevant documents about the decision are available to the public if asked for. Vinnova has a budget for grants of 2.5 billion SEK, so this grant is not one of the big ones.
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Post by: Manchu
jorny wrote:I think that they are probably been looking at stuff like ISO 14001 which is an environmental mangement system, and they want to see if they can find concrete ways to work with diversity and share knowledge and strategies. FInding tools so to speak. And then some sort of process certification might be helpful. It ceirtanly is in other industries.
TBH all this stuff about ISOs and process certification are conceptions you have introduced. It seems like Spelplan-ASGD is interested in something very different -- a ratings system. Ratings system are related to end products, not products in development. Also, ratings systems are external to development.
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Post by: jorny
Manchu wrote: jorny wrote:I think that they are probably been looking at stuff like ISO 14001 which is an environmental mangement system, and they want to see if they can find concrete ways to work with diversity and share knowledge and strategies. FInding tools so to speak. And then some sort of process certification might be helpful. It ceirtanly is in other industries.
TBH all this stuff about ISOs and process certification are conceptions you have introduced. It seems like Spelplan-ASGD is interested in something very different -- a ratings system. Ratings system are related to end products, not products in development. Also, ratings systems are external to development.
No, this is nothing I have introduced. They specifically state this in their press release.
Several news sites have noted that the Games Industry tilll together with Praxikon will be given support to investigate how a norm critically labeling could look like. The project is a pilot study to investigate the feasibility of a standard critical labeling in the computer games industry.
Many have expressed a desire for a label, but initially there are several questions for the survey to answer. What kind of "label" is requested - it's a consumer labeling such KRAV, a process marking the ISO, or something else entirely?
Google translate again. So the translation is a little weird, but understandable. KRAV is a label that shows that ceirtain ecological standards and requirement has been followed in the production of food and some consumer goods. So it is related to development. And this is a feasibility study. So they might find out that a lable is not the best solution. I certainly don't know if it is.
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Post by: VorpalBunny74
Manchu wrote:Let's assume Spelplan-ASGD can also foresee all the negative outcomes we can. Given that, why do you think they would still pursue this? I'm not seeing how this is adding up. I feel pretty justified in being skeptical about this research and the more I think about it the more skeptical I get.
I'm not comfortable assuming they can foresee any negative outcomes
The worst case scenario is they believe that the ends justify the means, and don't care if it hurts devs and the industry by introducing red tape or political bullying.
Let's be honest here - who actually reads the content warnings for games, and incorporates that into their buying decisions? Are there any parents that look at anything beyond the age restriction, if even that, when buying games for their children?
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
Actually it is about reaction to people trying to make gaming more inclusive (aka SJW) . Or something.
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Post by: Bishop F Gantry
jorny wrote: Manchu wrote: VorpalBunny74 wrote:I'm assuming their intentions are good - they want to widen the audience of games to include more non-white males. If true, fair enough, bigger pie and all that.
That kind of argument leads nowhere. The thing about companies is they exist to make profit. They don't need a ratings system to seek out and exploit untapped markets.
But they explicitly state that they want to find systems and processes to support them in including more groups. It is not a system like PEGI or ESRB that is discussed, they compare it with KRAV, a swedish labeling for ecologically grown food, and the different ISO systems for process control. Maybe a comparison to fair trade is more appropriate.
Ive yet to see a politically correctness system work as intended aka in a positive way...
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Post by: Manchu
I guess that's true, considering you introduced the concept in this thread and then found and posted a link showing that the study is considering both consumer labeling as well as ISO labeling (translation entirely courtesy Google): Many have expressed a desire for a label, but initially there are several questions for the survey to answer. What kind of "label" is requested - it's a consumer labeling such [as Krav], a process marking the ISO, or something else entirely?
Indeed, this line makes the project sound even broader: Unless the games content is the focus, what does diversity work in the production of games that do not have characters, lines or narrative?
Given that, it seems like Spelplan-ASDG and Praxikon are not at all interested in a ratings system. Rather they want to find out if they can draw up rules developers must follow to have their games labeled "diverse," is that right? BTW that link also says the project is supported by Vinnova so you were also right about that.
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Post by: jorny
Manchu wrote:I guess that's true, considering you introduced the concept in this thread and then found and posted a link showing that the study is considering both consumer labeling as well as ISO labeling (translation entirely courtesy Google): Many have expressed a desire for a label, but initially there are several questions for the survey to answer. What kind of "label" is requested - it's a consumer labeling such [as Krav], a process marking the ISO, or something else entirely?
Indeed, this line makes the project sound even broader: Unless the games content is the focus, what does diversity work in the production of games that do not have characters, lines or narrative?
Given that, it seems like Spelplan-ASDG and Praxikon are not at all interested in a ratings system. Rather they want to find out if they can draw up rules developers must follow to have their games labeled "diverse," is that right?
BTW that link also says the project is supported by Vinnova so you were also right about that.
Well. The first thing I wrote in this thread was:
Maybe you should all read what the link says before posting. The Swedish government has nothing to do with this. And there is no new system being implemented.
It is the association of Swedish game developers and publishers who is funding a preliminary study that is going to look at what the conditions and possibilities for a marking that deals with issues of gender roles, norms and diversity in games. It will also look if there is a demand for this, and if it is, is the demand for something like a process marking like ISO or a consumer oriented marking.
Here is the press release:
http://www.dataspelsbranschen.se/nyheter/2014/11/13/foerstudie-kring-normkritisk-maerkning.aspx
So it is nothing I introduced and then found a link to support.
And no, this is not a about rules that must be followed. Nothing in anything they have written that I have found supports that is anything like that. The words used suggest that they want to find voluntary support systems and tools.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry! I misread your last post Manchu. It is getting a bit late here  :-)
You seem to have got it right. It might end up with a system that developers can use if they want to.
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Post by: Manchu
jorny wrote:It might end up with a system that developers can use if they want to.
Right, so assuming the research shows (how?) that some party (the trade association?) can write a set of guidelines or rules that results in developing more diverse games then someone (who? again, the trade association?) will write out those guidelines so that the publisher can print a label on the box that says something like "certified diverse content"?
I want to make sure I am understanding this so I don't keep confusing it with a ratings system like PEGI/ESRB.
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Post by: VorpalBunny74
Why not make your own # to make gaming more inclusive?
How about #SwedishSolution? That has no negative connotations 
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
Why would I need a #? What is the use for them, except being associated with donkey-caves? Like, say, Milo Yiannopoulos?
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Post by: VorpalBunny74
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Why would I need a #? What is the use for them, except being associated with donkey-caves? Like, say, Milo Yiannopoulos?
You don't need one. It was just a suggestion for if you wanted to be pro-active 
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
I can be proactive without a hashtag.
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Post by: VorpalBunny74
With a hashtag you can be pro-active with likeminded people. SWEDISH people, even.
We're getting off topic though, I think
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
It is not like-minded people that needs to be convinced.
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Post by: VorpalBunny74
Alright I'll bite, what have you done to expand inclusivity in games?
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Post by: Sining
Other than the obvious; programming a game, I'd say he's done the usual. Complain about perceived non-inclusivity Automatically Appended Next Post: Manchu wrote:Let's assume Spelplan-ASGD can also foresee all the negative outcomes we can. Given that, why do you think they would still pursue this? I'm not seeing how this is adding up. I feel pretty justified in being skeptical about this research and the more I think about it the more skeptical I get.
As someone who's helped his company receive more than one grant from 'interested' non-government trade councils, it's very likely they're just spending the money as a gesture of goodwill or because there's something else going on behind the scenes with regards to relationships between various parties in the two organisations.
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Post by: Melissia
While I've advised actual game devs on the topic, myself (IE invited to meetings to raised my concerns), if we're getting in to a pissing contest about whom supposedly has contributed the most, I would like to point out that like any pissing contest, it serves no real purpose except to try to shut the conversation down.
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Post by: nomotog
It also gets allover the floor and is a pain to clean up.
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Post by: Sining
nomotog wrote:It also gets allover the floor and is a pain to clean up.
Your toilet training days must have been fun
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Post by: VorpalBunny74
Melissia wrote:While I've advised actual game devs on the topic, myself (IE invited to meetings to raised my concerns), if we're getting in to a pissing contest about whom supposedly has contributed the most, I would like to point out that like any pissing contest, it serves no real purpose except to try to shut the conversation down.
Hybrid claimed he was pro-active, and I don't disbelieve him, so I was curious about what he's done ( or planning to do) to expand inclusivity in games.
I'm happy to drop it though. No one wants wet shoes
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Post by: Torga_DW
My question remains the same: how do these ratings help fix the problem? The "aware and care" camp will be just as aware as before. The "don't care" camp still aren't going to care.
How will the people in the middle feel about games suddenly having to display the race and gender of (presumably) protagonists? Will they see it in a good way, or a bad way.
More importantly, how do these ratings help fix the problem?
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Post by: Lynata
Bishop F Gantry wrote:Show me two identical games now that this rating actually would work on favouring one of them, or rather show me two games that are similar enough that such a rating could actually sway the consumer...
Far Cry 3 <-> Tomb Raider
Watch Dogs <-> Sleeping Dogs
Prince of Persia <-> Remember Me
Deus Ex II <-> Deus Ex HR..?
I find it's a bit difficult to find proper comparisons, though, chiefly because there aren't actually a lot of Triple-A games that do sway from the standard, which is exactly the reason for why I think such a rating system might not be a bad idea.
Manchu wrote:What benefit would the video game industry reap by self-regulating about diversity? And what kind of disadvantages must be weighed against those benefits? As I have tried to argue above, I cannot imagine developers or publishers wanting to get involved with something like this.
Developers, at least some of them, already do, when they host intercompany meetings and presentations about these very issues. It's the publishers that still need to get onboard, as right now they appear to be the biggest obstacle.
Manchu wrote:What does a ratings system have to do with a developer figuring out how to make games with more diversity?
Perhaps they think it might put pressure on the publisher, thus loosening established industry standards to allow for more variety? It might all be just about signs, and a rating system is a sign much like community backlash and negative reports in the media.
It's true that companies exist to make profit, but it would be risky to assume that their fancy focus groups will always provide them with good insight into market potential. Especially if said focus groups are biased to begin with simply out of the aforementioned standards and lack in communication between studio and whoever carries out the research.
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Post by: Sining
They don't.
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Post by: nomotog
Lynata wrote:Bishop F Gantry wrote:Show me two identical games now that this rating actually would work on favouring one of them, or rather show me two games that are similar enough that such a rating could actually sway the consumer...
Far Cry 3 <-> Tomb Raider Watch Dogs <-> Sleeping Dogs Prince of Persia <-> Remember Me Deus Ex II <-> Deus Ex HR..? I find it's a bit difficult to find proper comparisons, though, chiefly because there aren't actually a lot of Triple-A games that do sway from the standard, which is exactly the reason for why I think such a rating system might not be a bad idea.
I always stated that Nation drake was basic a staffed counter part to Lara croft (who was also a distaff counter part to indy.) Though I guess the new tomb raider shares more in common with far cry 3. The big difference being where the camera is located.... Hmm. That is actually A topic I want to talk about some time, but I'm tired at the moment and I worry about being too hard to deal with. The watch dogs sleeping dogs comparison is actually a fair one. It's kind of strange how male focused watched dogs is with it's story. (You know put that down as another thing I want to talk about some time.) Sleeping dogs is more gender progressive in well broke nose jane. Skiping It's hard to say if Deus ex or HR is more progressive on gender then the other. I would actually award the point to the original because Anna is better then that one girl from HR that I don't recall the name of because well she doesn't do anything other then lick her lips and strike acrobatic poses. (Never make a boss character mute, we learn 90 of their personality from enemy chatter and taunts..)
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Post by: Asherian Command
This is basically putting a censor bar on a statue because the statue is naked. You have no right to censor someone's voice or artform. Stop treating games like a toy and start treating it both as a product and as an art.
Games will slowly become more diverse with time. As it has shown to be. Anyone that disregards the history of the games industry are just fooling themselves.
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Post by: Goliath
 Asherian Command wrote:This is basically putting a censor bar on a statue because the statue is naked. You have no right to censor someone's voice or artform. Stop treating games like a toy and start treating it both as a product and as an art.
Games will slowly become more diverse with time. As it has shown to be. Anyone that disregards the history of the games industry are just fooling themselves.
No, it's putting a sign at the art gallery saying 'do you like X type of art? Go to wing A! If you like Y type of art, go to wing B.'
A sticker saying what things are in the game is no more censorship than putting a 15+ rating on the side.
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Post by: Manchu
Given my conversation with jorny yesterday, it seems more like a set of rules to make art that is "diverse" according to a trade association.
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Post by: jorny
What this is we will not be able to find out until the final report of this preliminary study is done.
This is basically putting a censor bar on a statue because the statue is naked. You have no right to censor someone's voice or artform. Stop treating games like a toy and start treating it both as a product and as an art.
This has nothing to do with censorship. If you want video games to be taken seriously you have to accept that there is debate and cultural critique, just like all other art forms and types of culture. I would say that the fact that there is the beginning of a discussion shows that video games are being taken more seriously.
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Post by: Manchu
jorny wrote:shows that video games are being taken more seriously
I think it depends on what you mean by "seriously." I don't think all the kerfuffle about video games needing to become more diverse shows people think of them more like literature and art. Seems like people take video games seriously only insofar as there is so much money to be made developing, publishing, reviewing, criticizing, and even just playing them. Also, lobbying for more diversity in video games on the basis of broadening the market strikes me as totally amoral.
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Post by: jorny
Manchu wrote: jorny wrote:shows that video games are being taken more seriously
I think it depends on what you mean by "seriously." I don't think all the kerfuffle about video games needing to become more diverse shows people think of them more like literature and art. Seems like people take video games seriously only insofar as there is so much money to be made developing, publishing, reviewing, criticizing, and even just playing them. Also, lobbying for more diversity in video games on the basis of broadening the market strikes me as totally amoral.
Yeah, I totally agree that it is tragic that "MOAR MONIEZ!!!" is used as a reason, instead of arguing for it as something that you want to do because you thing it is the right thing to do. Otherwise I think it is good that we are more and more getting a debate that deals with the content of a game, and the ideology and ideas that are inherent in it (sometimes without the developers even knowing it themselves). Because games are a big part of culture in our society.
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Post by: Manchu
jorny wrote:Because games are a big part of culture in our society.
Yes and this is probably the most important point. I think we are arguing about diversity in video games because (1) we spend a lot of time as a society playing them and (2) the meaning of value of diversity is an urgent issue in our society. In other words, the way we talk about video games probably reflects our larger social concerns precisely because video games are so much more culturally relevant than ever before.
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Post by: Lynata
nomotog wrote:I always stated that Nation drake was basic a staffed counter part to Lara croft (who was also a distaff counter part to indy.) Though I guess the new tomb raider shares more in common with far cry 3.
Actually, you make a good point. I did remember the character of Nathan Drake (one of my colleagues has a small statue on his desk), I just couldn't recall either his name or the name of his game - so I went with the next best thing I could think of.
nomotog wrote:It's hard to say if Deus ex or HR is more progressive on gender then the other. I would actually award the point to the original because Anna is better then that one girl from HR that I don't recall the name of because well she doesn't do anything other then lick her lips and strike acrobatic poses. (Never make a boss character mute, we learn 90 of their personality from enemy chatter and taunts..)
I was referring more to Deus Ex II offering you the choice of playing a character of different ethnicity and/or gender, whereas HR took a step back and dictated the industry standard heterosexual white male again. But your analysis has merit, too.
Manchu wrote:Also, lobbying for more diversity in video games on the basis of broadening the market strikes me as totally amoral.
To be fair, cash is what publishers care most about - so I could see it being the most successful argument, even if the original proponents may have more idealistic motivations. Justifying the means with the ends, so to say. Nice words alone don't seem to have much effect on the industry.
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Post by: daedalus
Lynata wrote:I was referring more to Deus Ex II offering you the choice of playing a character of different ethnicity and/or gender, whereas HR took a step back and dictated the industry standard heterosexual white male again.
Not that I liked HR, or boring white male characters, but what would you have cut out to allow for the resources necessary to include the option?
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Post by: Lynata
daedalus wrote:Not that I liked HR, or boring white male characters, but what would you have cut out to allow for the resources necessary to include the option?
Whatever was cut out of the previous game to allow it?
Okay, for real now: no doubt additional options in terms of character customisation would require additional manhours, plus the contract for at least one additional voice actor - but considering the vast amount of cash that is flowing into Triple-A titles such as these nowadays, it's safe to say that the cost to include additional ethnicities and genders would occupy an ever-shrinking percentage of the total budget. In the case of DE: HR, we are talking about a title that has been in development for four years, and where the developers are proud to have spent a large part of the budget on environmental design (and I'm not talking actual map creation, but concept art). This is a game where the budget for marketing was enough to set up fake websites, produce fake TV ads, and even a live action short movie. Yet it's not enough to accomodate for modelling/texturing/animating 1 alternate body type and 5 alternate faces, and to bump up the cast of voice actors from 68 to 69?
Please, let's not buy into Ubisoft PR spins here.
Eidos Montreal was asked in an interview why, unlike with the previous game, they didn't allow for a female character. Their response was not that it would have been too expensive, but that "it wouldn't fit the story".
Bollocks, I say. Although it is at least a more honest answer than Ubisoft's, from their point of view. Though it still doesn't explain why they also skipped out on Black and Asian head options like they existed in DE II. I'm assuming ignorance - which is why I indeed think a rating might help, by calling into memory that it's okay to expand your horizon. It's a shame, really, especially as DE: HR is otherwise an excellent game; I'd even go as far as to say it was one of the best I've ever played.
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Post by: StarTrotter
Now I'm not going to say I quite agree with you on DE: HR too radically. I don't really mind being stuck to one character nor would I really mind having others. If it's in cool if not meh. The advertisements honestly are a bit too much nowadays really.
Thanks for reminding me of Ubisoft's argument though. That was absolutely amazing . Oh look! It's the same assassin with a different color of garment! So when going online not even one choice for your own character? Besides that didn't seem to stop ubisoft from having multiplayer females now did it?
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Post by: nomotog
StarTrotter wrote:Now I'm not going to say I quite agree with you on DE: HR too radically. I don't really mind being stuck to one character nor would I really mind having others. If it's in cool if not meh. The advertisements honestly are a bit too much nowadays really.
Thanks for reminding me of Ubisoft's argument though. That was absolutely amazing . Oh look! It's the same assassin with a different color of garment! So when going online not even one choice for your own character? Besides that didn't seem to stop ubisoft from having multiplayer females now did it?
Well we now know it was the truth. Women were too hard for them to animate as well as everything. AC unity was just a mess. (Maybe made more sad when you consider it was mad by over 9 studios.)
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