So everything is out in the open I do not know much about Warmachine. I have read the topics on here saying that it is a tighter ruleset and cheaper. So I was intrigued and looked into it.

I have taken an 1850pt Warhammer 40k list from the Army List section vs Xareath's tournament list at Feast of Blades (found in the Warmachine Forum Day 1 Report)

So everyone knows NO discounts were included. All are MSRP.

Here is the Breakdown:

Chaos Daemons:
Fateweaver - 57.75
Herald of Tzeentch (No official model, used Changeling) - 19.25
Herald of Tzeentch (Diddo) - 19.25
30x Pink Horrors - 29x3
5 Screamers - 29.75x2
Daemon Prince - 41.25
Daemon Prince - 41.25
Total: $325.25

Xareaths 50pt List 1:
Morvahna2 - 29.99
Warpwolf Stalker - 34.99
Warpwolf Stalker - 34.99
Gorax - 18.99
Tharn Ravagers (He says Max, can't see how many are in there so 1 box has 6. Left it at that) - 54.99
Chieftan - 17.99
Shaman - 15.99
Warborn Skinwalkers - (Again Max, Box comes with 5 so left it at that) - 44.99
Warpborn Alpha - 21.99
Shifting Stones - 11.99
Stonekeeper - 9.99
Gallows Grove - 24.99
Gallows Grove - 24.99
Blackclad Wayferer - 12.99
Total: $359.86

Now we add list 2:
Kreuger2 - 13.99
Ghetorix - 16.99
Warpwolf Stalker - Bought for previous list. 0.00
Gorax - Diddo 0.00
Tharn Bloodtrackers - 54.99
Nuala - 11.99
Druids of Orboros - 34.99
Overseer - 10.99
Shifting Stones - Purchased previously 0.00
Stone Keeper - Diddo 0.00
Stoneward and Wold Stalkers - 24.99
Gallows Grove - Purchased Previously - 0.00
Blackclad Wayferer - Diddo - 0.00
Total $528.79 (Added two lists together.

So Warmachine is not cheaper. Whats everyone smoking?

You didn't add the more than $100 in rulebooks to the GW list while the WM books are free or $25 abouts if you want the fluff.

Next, outside of a tournament, I never play 50pt games (others might).

Next, cheaper entry cost for WM and you can build over time.

Rules are tighter, models not as nice in some cases but WM is more fun to me because I don't have to look through 20 supplements whenever I play someone and argue over poorly written rules.

I don't mean this to be rude, but just taking a cursory glance at another game, with no other knowledge of it, and comparing it to another won't get you a good picture. First off, you're not including the rules. That's $135 more for 40k and $30 more for WMH. Secondly, I don't understand why you're taking two WMH lists and putting the costs together, can you please elaborate?

 Accolade wrote:
I don't mean this to be rude, but just taking a cursory glance at another game, with no other knowledge of it, and comparing it to another won't get you a good picture. First off, you're not including the rules. That's $135 more for 40k and $30 more for WMH. Secondly, I don't understand why you're taking two WMH lists and putting the costs together, can you please elaborate?

He's comparing the costs for a complete model collection in WM vs a small 40k list that still needs tons of troops for all of the summoning that he'll be doing.

Okay, that's what I thought. Well that again brings me back to my first point: with basically no knowledge of a game system, how the forces break down and everything else, making claims that the community is "smoking something" is just brewing for a flame war.

I'm sorry, I just think finding this one example and saying "see guys, this proves it!" is incredibly disingenuous without the knowledge and understanding to back it up.

Uh huh. Now go price other lists please. Say, guard, foot nids etc. throw in expensive £ to points units like rhinos. Now compare.

But to be fair, you are incorrect when you say people sell warmachine on the 'but it's cheaper' tag. At least I don't. You forgot three important words.

Warmachine is cheaper to buy in.

A 50pt list (standard size game) will generally set you back less than a standard sized 40k list (1500pts). Unlike 40k, the costs aren't front loaded. Rulebook. War room. Caster. Battle box. Off you go. Expand slowly. The expansion can be as expensive as anything from 40k, but again, it's not front loaded.

Just so I dont get some one to say well you chose the cheapest army blah blah blah. Here is JY2's Necron List.

Bargelord - 37.25
Bargelord - 37.25
(4x) 5x Warriors - 36.25 x 2
4x Night Scythe - 45.5
10x Wraiths - 47x4
3x Annhihilation Barge - 37.25 x 3
Total $554.25

So this list is 25 dollars more. This list will also win you or get you top 5 in every tournament. I dont think the price difference is there at all.

And my nid swarm?

Well, I made a similar calculation with my Necron army vs my Cyriss faction.
I could re-elaborate tomorrow as it caused some debates here.

In WMH tournaments a player can field 1-2 or 1-3 lists of the same faction.
In Germany we often play at the 42 pt level.

I knew it would happen. I chose 2 50pt lists because that is what Warmachine tournaments are played at just like I chose an 1850pt list for 40k because that is the standard tournament. Rulebooks dont matter because most of us know how to download them for free.

Also the first CD list has $200 to spend on summoning units.

You would need more lists from both companies to be more convincing. I am unmoved by your limited data. Your only GW example is a pretty low model count list. I'd throw in a SM, Ork, Tau, and Eldar to really have a good comparison point.

Also, i'd rather see it as a $ per Point ratio than a flat total.
in your example,

List 1: $0.18 per GW point
List 2: $0.19 per GW point
List 3: $0.29 per GW point

List 1: $6.51 per PP point
List 2: $7.20 per PP point
List 3: $10.58 per PP point

That's my $.02.

Incognito15 wrote:
Rulebooks dont matter because most of us know how to download them for free.

No, that's illegal. You don't get to factor "I can just steal this part" into the overall costs.

The 40k list is probably the absolute cheapest 1850 list in existence. That and maybe straight Paladins.

Your example is bad and you should feel bad.

A 1000pts Guard list will easily push $500.

Incognito15 wrote:
I knew it would happen. I chose 2 50pt lists because that is what Warmachine tournaments are played at just like I chose an 1850pt list for 40k because that is the standard tournament. Rulebooks dont matter because most of us know how to download them for free.

Also the first CD list has $200 to spend on summoning units.

Except they do matter. Otherwise we can talk about the 'five finger discount' for our models too, if we factor in stealing.

Incognito15 wrote:
Rulebooks dont matter because most of us know how to download them for free.

lol

Then a WM/H is free because I just steal it.

Deadnight wrote:
And my nid swarm?

Your screwed. Nids just cost a buttload. Except most people that play Nids that I know buy every model and every FW model so usually they dont collect because of price.

Incognito15 wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
And my nid swarm?

Your screwed. Nids just cost a buttload. Except most people that play Nids that I know buy every model and every FW model so usually they dont collect because of price.

So is warmachine cheaper then?

 Blacksails wrote:
The 40k list is probably the absolute cheapest 1850 list in existence. That and maybe straight Paladins.

Your example is bad and you should feel bad.

A 1000pts Guard list will easily push $500.

Keep reading I example Necrons too.

So your comparison in prices is only valid if you say it is?

So an expensive 40k army doesn't count?

Its pretty easy to make an argument about the cost of two games when you deliberately pick the cheapest options of one and the most expensive of another.

Deadnight wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
And my nid swarm?

Your screwed. Nids just cost a buttload. Except most people that play Nids that I know buy every model and every FW model so usually they dont collect because of price.

So is warmachine cheaper?

I dont know. All I see from this is that there is almost no difference.

Incognito15 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
The 40k list is probably the absolute cheapest 1850 list in existence. That and maybe straight Paladins.

Your example is bad and you should feel bad.

A 1000pts Guard list will easily push $500.

Keep reading I example Necrons too.

And my nids example proves what then?

Incognito15 wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
And my nid swarm?

Your screwed. Nids just cost a buttload. Except most people that play Nids that I know buy every model and every FW model so usually they dont collect because of price.

So is warmachine cheaper?

I dont know. All I see from this is that there is almost know difference.

Then look harder.

 Blacksails wrote:
So your comparison in prices is only valid if you say it is?

So an expensive 40k army doesn't count?

Its pretty easy to make an argument about the cost of two games when you deliberately pick the cheapest options of one and the most expensive of another.

Where do I choose the cheapest and the most expensive. All I did was pick 2 lists and compared. Then added a second 40k because I knew the flames where coming.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadnight wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
The 40k list is probably the absolute cheapest 1850 list in existence. That and maybe straight Paladins.

Your example is bad and you should feel bad.

A 1000pts Guard list will easily push $500.

Keep reading I example Necrons too.

And my nids example proves what then?

One army is expensive out of 13

Incognito15 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
So your comparison in prices is only valid if you say it is?

So an expensive 40k army doesn't count?

Its pretty easy to make an argument about the cost of two games when you deliberately pick the cheapest options of one and the most expensive of another.

Where do I choose the cheapest and the most expensive. All I did was pick 2 lists and compared. Then added a second 40k because I knew the flames where coming.

You post a thread making a categorical statement that WMH is more expensive than 40k with basically no knowledge on the subject of the game (WMH), then stated that everyone was "smoking something" for not having realized this great truth before. And you didn't expect people to say anything?

This also ignores that for the price of one tournament 40k army, you get two WM/H armies.

You really can't post three lists and tell us how cheap it is. You've also ignored the cost of the rules, which is a minimum of 160.

Quality of rules, customer engagement; these things matter to me so if the price is a "push" the value isn't.

Incognito15 wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
And my nid swarm?

Your screwed. Nids just cost a buttload. Except most people that play Nids that I know buy every model and every FW model so usually they dont collect because of price.

So is warmachine cheaper?

I dont know. All I see from this is that there is almost know difference.

Then look harder.

Incognito15 wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
The 40k list is probably the absolute cheapest 1850 list in existence. That and maybe straight Paladins.

Your example is bad and you should feel bad.

A 1000pts Guard list will easily push $500.

Keep reading I example Necrons too.

And my nids example proves what then?

One army is expensive out of 13

Nids, Imperial Guard, and Orks are all exorbitantly expensive. Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau (to a degree), and some Space Marine variants are all mid-tier. All of these are more expensive than the types of armies you chose (i.e. Necrons, Tyranid Monsterfest).

EDIT: also, 6 of the 13 options are just variations of Space Marines. 2 of the 13 are variations of Imperial Guard. 1 is an army of super heavies, of which 5 models necessary to make a ~1750 list costs $700.

 Blacksails wrote:
This also ignores that for the price of one tournament 40k army, you get two WM/H armies.

You really can't post three lists and tell us how cheap it is. You've also ignored the cost of the rules, which is a minimum of 160.

The 40k Rules are:

Rulebook $58.
Necron Book $33.
Harcover $50.

So at MOST 108.

Warmachine is:

Mk2 29.99
Rulebook 29.99

So 59.98

So a difference of $48.02.

Not that much.

 agnosto wrote:
You didn't add the more than $100 in rulebooks to the GW list while the WM books are free or $25 abouts if you want the fluff.

Invalid for his comparison. But, a valid point if you want to view it from a jumping into the game perspective. You could also factor in accessories, bags, dice, etc. However, I don't think that was the original intention.

 agnosto wrote:
Next, outside of a tournament, I never play 50pt games (others might).

Invalid. He's purely comparing 1850 point 40k tourney list to a 50 point warmahordes tourney list. So... I normally play 2000 point 40k games, and you normally play 30 point warmahordes. Irrelevant to his original topic.

 agnosto wrote:
Next, cheaper entry cost for WM and you can build over time.

Invalid. 40k also offers kill team which you can easily play with a single squad of models. Both games offer entry points and growth opportunities. Not pertinent to the original topic.

 agnosto wrote:
Rules are tighter, models not as nice in some cases but WM is more fun to me because I don't have to look through 20 supplements whenever I play someone and argue over poorly written rules.

Invalid. Subjective. Subjective, and Negatively Subjective. I can't remember the last 40k game I played where I got in a rules argument that wasn't settled in 10 seconds and at worst case with a die roll.

Incognito15 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
This also ignores that for the price of one tournament 40k army, you get two WM/H armies.

You really can't post three lists and tell us how cheap it is. You've also ignored the cost of the rules, which is a minimum of 160.

The 40k Rules are:

Rulebook $58.
Necron Book $33.
Harcover $50.

So at MOST 108.

Warmachine is:

Mk2 29.99
Rulebook 29.99

So 59.98

So a difference of $48.02.

Not that much.

You only need the Mk2 book for WMH.

I'm assuming you mean the new mini-rulebook to have the cost at $58 for the rules. That is fine, then I will say $108 for GW rules vs. $30 for WMH rules. That being said, if you're in a tournament mindset you best hope your army isn't benefited in *any* way by an ally, supplement, or data slate, because you're looking at an additional $20-$50 for those couple of pages of rules (you used tourneys as the example so I'm just going off of that).

Canadian prices.

The rules alone are $70, then my Guard codex is $60, for $130 total. The rules for WM/H are 29.99, and faction book is the same, only my understanding is that's entirely optional as the rules come with the units.

Which would put it at a $100 difference, at the least. When supplements, dataslates and allies are thrown in, things get out hand pretty quickly.

You forgot to add all the extra daemons for Summoning in that Daemon list. So add probably another $200-300 to that price tag. Beyond that you took a very cheap (without summoning) 40k list and just picked a random WMH list

Also the big difference would be one of those lists is enough to actually play the game.

Lets look at some other top Lists

OrdoSean from 11th company
Flyrant - $53.75
Flyrant - 53.75
8 lictors- 8x24.75 =198
Death Leaper - 24.75
15 Genestealers 30 x 2= 60
3 Mawlocs 3x57.75 = 173.25
14 Sporemines 24.75 x 2
3 Ripper swarms 3x 14 = 42
Baston = 41.25

SO that 1850 list totals at $516.25. Probably a bit cheaper if you can make mines and rippers with bitz from other sprues.

What about the Pacific rim list

3 i Knigts = $420
2 Riptides = $170


SO with no troops and no HQ we are looking at $590

What about AM lists running squadrons of Wyverns and Blobs.

1 squadron of 3 Wyverns is $168

What about Serpents + wraithknights

Farseer $20
25 Dire Avengers = $175
5 Serpents = $222.50
3 Wraithknights= $345


Comes to $762.50.

The general dollar difference is that for 40k 1500 is really the lowest level that seems to get any play. So to get to that you are looking at a decent amount of money, warmachine functions for less.

Lets take a Centurionstar list.

Gk Lib - 19.25
5 Strike Squad - 33
5 Purifiers - 33
Rhino - 37.25
5 Purifiers 33
Rhino 37.25
Dreadknight - 53.75
Dreadknight - 53.75
Draigo - 22.25
Captain 22.25
5 Scouts - 25
Land Speeder Storm - 30
4 Devestator Centurions - 78x2
Total: $518.75

That is 3 40k Lists all would get you with in the Top 5 of any tournament you go to 2 of them being cheaper than Warmachine. I dont think there is much difference.

Then whats the point of the 29.99 army books for Warmachine. Are they just 30 bux for pretty pictures?

Let's not also forget that there are other games with equally solid rulesets for even cheaper. Infinity springs to mind, as does Firestorm Armada and other Spartan games.

The cost of rules alone in 40k is often enough for me to get the rules and a playable force in another game. That should say something about 40k's price breakdown.

The WMH faction-specific books provide fluff, art, and the rules for models. However, all of the WMH models come packaged with the rules already. The book isn't necessary to play the game (it is helpful though).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Incognito15 wrote:
Lets take a Centurionstar list.

Gk Lib - 19.25
5 Strike Squad - 33
5 Purifiers - 33
Rhino - 37.25
5 Purifiers 33
Rhino 37.25
Dreadknight - 53.75
Dreadknight - 53.75
Draigo - 22.25
Captain 22.25
5 Scouts - 25
Land Speeder Storm - 30
4 Devestator Centurions - 78x2
Total: $518.75

That is 3 40k Lists all would get you with in the Top 5 of any tournament you go to 2 of them being cheaper than Warmachine. I dont think there is much difference.

Then whats the point of the 29.99 army books for Warmachine. Are they just 30 bux for pretty pictures?

You need to go to just the 1-List version of WMH and use that cost, rather than this combined 2-list thing if your'e trying to create consistent examples, otherwise you're artificially inflating the WMH price by a noticeable margin.

Incognito15 wrote:


That is 3 40k Lists all would get you with in the Top 5 of any tournament you go to 2 of them being cheaper than Warmachine. I dont think there is much difference.

Are you wilfully ignoring Breng's post? What about the rules issue? If you want to be serious about this comparison, understand that at the minimum, you're going to spending roughly $100 more in rules for anything 40k.

On top of that, using your example, you get 2 playable WM/H forces, while the 40k example gets you 1.

I'm no mathologist, but I'm fairly certain getting two things for the cost of one thing is a better deal.

 Blacksails wrote:
Let's not also forget that there are other games with equally solid rulesets for even cheaper. Infinity springs to mind, as does Firestorm Armada and other Spartan games.

The cost of rules alone in 40k is often enough for me to get the rules and a playable force in another game. That should say something about 40k's price breakdown.

Completely agree, when I look at say Malifaux where for $100 I can get a tournament standard list, and all the rules I need to play the game....and compare it to 40k where $100 gets me the rules....There are some pricing issues.

 Blacksails wrote:
Canadian prices.

The rules alone are $70, then my Guard codex is $60, for $130 total. The rules for WM/H are 29.99, and faction book is the same, only my understanding is that's entirely optional as the rules come with the units.

Which would put it at a $100 difference, at the least. When supplements, dataslates and allies are thrown in, things get out hand pretty quickly.

All that I am doing is taking a Tournament list for Warmachine vs a Tournament list for 40k. I am not saying that you are going to collect every army out there.

Incognito15 wrote:
Lets take a Centurionstar list.

Gk Lib - 19.25
5 Strike Squad - 33
5 Purifiers - 33
Rhino - 37.25
5 Purifiers 33
Rhino 37.25
Dreadknight - 53.75
Dreadknight - 53.75
Draigo - 22.25
Captain 22.25
5 Scouts - 25
Land Speeder Storm - 30
4 Devestator Centurions - 78x2
Total: $518.75

That is 3 40k Lists all would get you with in the Top 5 of any tournament you go to 2 of them being cheaper than Warmachine. I dont think there is much difference.

Then whats the point of the 29.99 army books for Warmachine. Are they just 30 bux for pretty pictures?

You missed the 2 I posted both more than Warmachine....one significantly so.

And I'm saying the bare minimum rules are a factor in those costs, which amounts to a minimum $100 difference, roughly.

 Blacksails wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:


That is 3 40k Lists all would get you with in the Top 5 of any tournament you go to 2 of them being cheaper than Warmachine. I dont think there is much difference.

Are you wilfully ignoring Breng's post? What about the rules issue? If you want to be serious about this comparison, understand that at the minimum, you're going to spending roughly $100 more in rules for anything 40k.

On top of that, using your example, you get 2 playable WM/H forces, while the 40k example gets you 1.

I'm no mathologist, but I'm fairly certain getting two things for the cost of one thing is a better deal.

2 Playable lists has no bearing on the discussion as you NEED 2 playable lists to be competitive.

I showed the rule difference it was only 40something. if you dont buy your specific army book for warmachine its 70s not 100.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:
Lets take a Centurionstar list.

Gk Lib - 19.25
5 Strike Squad - 33
5 Purifiers - 33
Rhino - 37.25
5 Purifiers 33
Rhino 37.25
Dreadknight - 53.75
Dreadknight - 53.75
Draigo - 22.25
Captain 22.25
5 Scouts - 25
Land Speeder Storm - 30
4 Devestator Centurions - 78x2
Total: $518.75

That is 3 40k Lists all would get you with in the Top 5 of any tournament you go to 2 of them being cheaper than Warmachine. I dont think there is much difference.

Then whats the point of the 29.99 army books for Warmachine. Are they just 30 bux for pretty pictures?

You missed the 2 I posted both more than Warmachine....one significantly so.

No I saw them. Your first one was cheaper.

Incognito15 wrote:


2 Playable lists has no bearing on the discussion as you NEED 2 playable lists to be competitive.

I showed the rule difference it was only 40something. if you dont buy your specific army book for warmachine its 70s not 100.

No, you don't. There are tournaments and leagues that only require 1 playable list.

In Canadian prices, the difference is close to $100, as I explained. Every new codex is $60, and the rulebook sold alone is $70. Using the old Necron book is disengenious.

Incognito15 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:


That is 3 40k Lists all would get you with in the Top 5 of any tournament you go to 2 of them being cheaper than Warmachine. I dont think there is much difference.

Are you wilfully ignoring Breng's post? What about the rules issue? If you want to be serious about this comparison, understand that at the minimum, you're going to spending roughly $100 more in rules for anything 40k.

On top of that, using your example, you get 2 playable WM/H forces, while the 40k example gets you 1.

I'm no mathologist, but I'm fairly certain getting two things for the cost of one thing is a better deal.

2 Playable lists has no bearing on the discussion as you NEED 2 playable lists to be competitive.

I showed the rule difference it was only 40something. if you dont buy your specific army book for warmachine its 70s not 100.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:
Lets take a Centurionstar list.

Gk Lib - 19.25
5 Strike Squad - 33
5 Purifiers - 33
Rhino - 37.25
5 Purifiers 33
Rhino 37.25
Dreadknight - 53.75
Dreadknight - 53.75
Draigo - 22.25
Captain 22.25
5 Scouts - 25
Land Speeder Storm - 30
4 Devestator Centurions - 78x2
Total: $518.75

That is 3 40k Lists all would get you with in the Top 5 of any tournament you go to 2 of them being cheaper than Warmachine. I dont think there is much difference.

Then whats the point of the 29.99 army books for Warmachine. Are they just 30 bux for pretty pictures?

You missed the 2 I posted both more than Warmachine....one significantly so.

No I saw them. Your first one was cheaper. So thats 3 cheaper 3 more.

 deviantduck wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
You didn't add the more than $100 in rulebooks to the GW list while the WM books are free or $25 abouts if you want the fluff.

Invalid for his comparison. But, a valid point if you want to view it from a jumping into the game perspective. You could also factor in accessories, bags, dice, etc. However, I don't think that was the original intention.

 agnosto wrote:
Next, outside of a tournament, I never play 50pt games (others might).

Invalid. He's purely comparing 1850 point 40k tourney list to a 50 point warmahordes tourney list. So... I normally play 2000 point 40k games, and you normally play 30 point warmahordes. Irrelevant to his original topic.

 agnosto wrote:
Next, cheaper entry cost for WM and you can build over time.

Invalid. 40k also offers kill team which you can easily play with a single squad of models. Both games offer entry points and growth opportunities. Not pertinent to the original topic.

 agnosto wrote:
Rules are tighter, models not as nice in some cases but WM is more fun to me because I don't have to look through 20 supplements whenever I play someone and argue over poorly written rules.

Invalid. Subjective. Subjective, and Negatively Subjective. I can't remember the last 40k game I played where I got in a rules argument that wasn't settled in 10 seconds and at worst case with a die roll.

All your bases are belong to me? lol. Dude, relax, we're talking about games here not trying to settle the national debt wherein arguments need to be valid or "invalid". I expressed an opinion, you obviously don't agree; I was not inferring my opinion was the gospel of angels or written in magic stone blocks.

1. Sure...ok. Subjective conversation is subjective. The cost of entry into a game helps determine who even picks the game up much less buys a sizable force. I can go out and plunk $500 or $600 down on a 2000 point army but most people buy over time; we'll get to that below in your killzone discussion.

2. Pts values are entirely relevant in that the price of armies is completely determined by how many models you need to play. If you're not a tournament player, both of the lists presented are irrelevant.

3. Kill team is not a "normal" 40k game. Sure, it's a variant that is part of an additional datalsate that you can purchase but is not included in the core rules. Let's tack more money into the equation unless you're like the OP and readily admit to breaking the law for your rules purchases. I fail to see how kill team is relevant to the discussion as it is not part of the core rules set whereas WM is scalable and designed to be such.

4. Kudos to you. I prefer a rules set wherein I simply don't have to have an interpretative discussion or "roll off". I prefer simply enjoying the game and the rare nerd-time I am able to squeeze out of my daily routine. Other have more ample hobby time and seem to enjoy the by-play of lengthy rules discussions (if it takes 10 minutes to arrive at what the blind monkey who banged out the rules meant, that's 10 minutes of buzzkill).

Cheers.

 Blacksails wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:


2 Playable lists has no bearing on the discussion as you NEED 2 playable lists to be competitive.

I showed the rule difference it was only 40something. if you dont buy your specific army book for warmachine its 70s not 100.

No, you don't. There are tournaments and leagues that only require 1 playable list.

In Canadian prices, the difference is close to $100, as I explained. Every new codex is $60, and the rulebook sold alone is $70. Using the old Necron book is disengenious.

Why is the Necron codex not legal?

I dont live in Canada so my prices are accurate.

And I don't live in the states so mine are too.

The Necron book isn't illegal, its just disingenuous to use as an example of cost difference. You and I both know what the cost of the new hardcover books are, which represents the majority of armies. If you want to be fair, I'd use the cost of rules for most armies and what they will eventually become, which up here in Canuckistan, is $60.

and one $200 + dollars more, the daemons are not really cheaper when summoning is accounted for either, and you still don't account for rules which automatically make all 40k lists more expensive. Also as stated not all Warmachine events are 2 list format.

The Necron book is one of the few remaining soft-cover books. Its price will soon be adjusted to $50 to be consistent with all other hardcovers. Also, Blacksails is Canadian so just be aware that they're may be pricing differences in conversation.

And shipping is different too. There are 100 variables but why bring them all up.

Dont know why you are harping about the Necron codex I posted the price but used the hardcover as my example.

Regardles, the price difference is significant; to the degree that you can buy a playable force and army in another system for the price difference.

Breng77 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Let's not also forget that there are other games with equally solid rulesets for even cheaper. Infinity springs to mind, as does Firestorm Armada and other Spartan games.

The cost of rules alone in 40k is often enough for me to get the rules and a playable force in another game. That should say something about 40k's price breakdown.

Completely agree, when I look at say Malifaux where for $100 I can get a tournament standard list, and all the rules I need to play the game....and compare it to 40k where $100 gets me the rules....There are some pricing issues.

Or you can get Dark Vengeance for $100, which has two (albeit kinda low grade for power) armies at about 1700 points of models, RULESET, templates and some dice.

Also, what is the $/Model ratio for both???

Its cheaper to start war machine as well you need to buy is $50 battle box and $8 war room app with your factions deck and a $20ish minirulebook. From there, another $50ish will get you up to 25 points which is a perfectly viable size game and you can grow slowly from there.

In the long run, the costs even out. But 40k requires a large initial investment in a minimum of 2 rulebooks plus several hundred in models to have even a basic 1500 point list, the level where 40k starts functioning. War machine functions just fine between 15 and 100 points.

Incognito15 wrote:
And shipping is different too. There are 100 variables but why bring them all up.

Dont know why you are harping about the Necron codex I posted the price but used the hardcover as my example.

I'm not harping, I was just making sure we were all on the same page about the pricing. I did see you were going off the hardcover pricing and as such priced the 40k rules as $108, while pricing the WMH rules as $30. I also made sure to make mention of the supplements that may be necessary for competitive play with some of these 40k armies (there is not a comparable additional rules cost with WMH).

Well, hang on about them rules.

All you need is one codex plus the paperback mini rulebook, which is either free with Stormclaw or Dark Vengeance, or you can get cheap (or free) from someone in your gaming group. Or Ebay, I suppose. The paperback mini is EXACTLY the same as the big one.

If you're really cheap about it, photocopy the relevant list pages from a friend. Photocopying pages out of a book for personal use is actually legal in North America, and almost every other part of the world. It's surprisingly few pages that you will need, unless you play Space Marines. Ironically, I own almost every 40k hardcover, but for play purposes, I have all of the list pages photocopied and put into one binder. Other than the first time I read through the hardcovers, they stay on a shelf.

Second, DV and Stormclaw are both very good value anyways. No, neither is a complete or optimal force. But it's fun to get into the game with, and in the case of Stormclaw, the models are highly useful.

If you can get someone to take the half of either box you don't need, that's $50 - $70 for a book plus a bunch of models. The Stormclaw models are even fully configurable.

HOWEVER:

The and/but part -- Warmahordes is WAY WAY more forgiving in terms of someone who doesn't know what they're doing, buying stuff, and being able to use it. You buy the wrong stuff in 40k, and everyone does it, and the fix is to buy more stuff. And, if the people you want to play with use monstrous and garguantuan models, flyers or fortifications you better have a way of dealing with it.

Using second hand, discounts, or copying applies equally to both games.

Doesn't matter, Dark Vengance is not playable in a standard point level 40k game, the armies in the set are not even balanced. You cannot take Dark Vengance to a tournament, and would need to spend several hundred $ to get it to a point where you were able in most cases. I'm not arguing $ per model. If we go that route 40k is not a bad deal, the issue is that you need far more models to play the game in general.

Breng77 wrote:
Doesn't matter, Dark Vengance is not playable in a standard point level 40k game, the armies in the set are not even balanced. You cannot take Dark Vengance to a tournament, and would need to spend several hundred $ to get it to a point where you were able in most cases. I'm not arguing $ per model. If we go that route 40k is not a bad deal, the issue is that you need far more models to play the game in general.

Stormclaw gives you better value if you want to build a normal army. However, DV is an exceptional *value* if someone will take the other half of the box, and you need a rulebook. You can buy it for less than $100 from discounters here in Canada (I got one for about $85 USD), which includes plenty of useful models, and a rulebook that's arguably worth $30 or so, and you get some templates, too. If you split the cost with someone DV is the price of 2 large pizzas delivered from a good pizza place.

Ok fine, this is just proof positive that pizza is overpriced now


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blacksails wrote:
Using second hand, discounts, or copying applies equally to both games.

Yes it does, but it has a much smaller impact on Warmahordes for all the legitimate reasons stated. Photocopying is also more "important" in 40k, because there are more than a dozen books, many of which you need only a tiny number of pages from -- assuming you want the stats and special abilities of every unit an opponent can field and their possible specials.

Incognito15 wrote:
So Warmachine is not cheaper. Whats everyone smoking?

when you ragequite and shred up your GW rule books into a doobie and smoke it, it gets you so high that higer prices = lower prices...

price per model higher in WMH? irrelevant!

price per full army higher in WMH? irrelevant!


I mean, you dont even need 1850 pts to play 40k... 500 pts is more then enough to play, but 50 pts is basically mandatory for WMH

plus, 40k makes babies crawl all over your ceiling too

Also, what is the $/Model ratio for both???

Kind of irrelevant from a playability standpoint. The cost-per-model is going to be dependent on how many models you need to play a game

A single BSS costs me $80US, plus whatever I need for alternate weapon options, so let's say $82 per BSS.

I can't play a standard game of 40K with just 1 squad of Sisters.

That's ~$8 a model.

I chose another WHM box-of-10 models from a random faction for comparison:

Warmachine: Protectorate - Temple Flameguard Unit Box

... it's normally $49.99, so $4.99 a model, and you can field up to 3 units of these per Warcaster, for a total amount of ~$150US.

I need to field at *least* 3 BSS to have tactical viability in 40K. That's $240 right there, and that's just basic troops!

WHM armies are almost universally smaller than a 40k army, but even if they are not (for sake of argument), this WHM army is going to be roughly half the cost of my Sisters army.

 Aleph-Sama wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Let's not also forget that there are other games with equally solid rulesets for even cheaper. Infinity springs to mind, as does Firestorm Armada and other Spartan games.

The cost of rules alone in 40k is often enough for me to get the rules and a playable force in another game. That should say something about 40k's price breakdown.

Completely agree, when I look at say Malifaux where for $100 I can get a tournament standard list, and all the rules I need to play the game....and compare it to 40k where $100 gets me the rules....There are some pricing issues.

Or you can get Dark Vengeance for $100, which has two (albeit kinda low grade for power) armies at about 1700 points of models, RULESET, templates and some dice.

Also, what is the $/Model ratio for both???

WM starter kit has two pretty decent exactly balanced against each other armies of 19 pts apiece (equivalent to 1000 pts in 40k. Standard games are 30pts, tournies usually run 40) along with rules, dice, measuring tape, counters, and unit cards for 100 bucks.

Also in WMH the two lists used are generally not disjoint.
Only characters can be taken just once like the beloved or hated Eiryss or Gorman.

 Psienesis wrote:

Also, what is the $/Model ratio for both???

Kind of irrelevant from a playability standpoint. The cost-per-model is going to be dependent on how many models you need to play a game

A single BSS costs me $80US, plus whatever I need for alternate weapon options, so let's say $82 per BSS.

I can't play a standard game of 40K with just 1 squad of Sisters.

That's ~$8 a model.

I chose another WHM box-of-10 models from a random faction for comparison:

Warmachine: Protectorate - Temple Flameguard Unit Box

... it's normally $49.99, so $4.99 a model, and you can field up to 3 units of these per Warcaster, for a total amount of ~$150US.

I need to field at *least* 3 BSS to have tactical viability in 40K. That's $240 right there, and that's just basic troops!

WHM armies are almost universally smaller than a 40k army, but even if they are not (for sake of argument), this WHM army is going to be roughly half the cost of my Sisters army.

You picked the single most expensive army to make a point??? Grey Knights have less models in an army should I make a point with them??? Or should we go with a poster boy Ultramarine list???

EDIT: You forgot to add expensive Seraphim Squads, and Dominion Squads!!!

I picked the army that I play.

Incidentally, I also picked one of the most-expensive WMH 10-model-units boxes as well.

Btw, going through the lists from my GT this past summer (2000 points) first 3

Knights + IG $750
Eldar $983.5
Eldar $758.5

SO sure 150 points down will be less, but not enough to drop below Warmahordes stuff. I mean even if we say you save $1 per point you are looking at $600, $608, $833


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AS for Dark Vengance being a good deal, that is debatable.

If you want to play space marines, sure it is a good deal, if you want to Play CSM it is slightly worse, if you want to play any other army, it is not a great deal at all.

Breng77 wrote:
Btw, going through the lists from my GT this past summer (2000 points) first 3

Knights + IG $750
Eldar $983.5
Eldar $758.5

SO sure 150 points down will be less, but not enough to drop below Warmahordes stuff. I mean even if we say you save $1 per point you are looking at $600, $608, $833


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AS for Dark Vengance being a good deal, that is debatable.

If you want to play space marines, sure it is a good deal, if you want to Play CSM it is slightly worse, if you want to play any other army, it is not a great deal at all.

Sure -- those prices look reasonable for 2000 points. This goes to show you that it's possible to play a competitive 40k army at between $500-$1000 (not everyone goes up to 2000 points). However, you have to know what you're buying.

DV is not the most useful box in the world, and the units are not the best selection (not to mention totally non-configurable). However, if you need the templates and the rulebook, it's as good a place as any to start 40k, IMO. Plus, the snapfits are a lot less time to put together, to "just play".

You also chose to compare a Circle Orboros army for Hordes, which tends to not have a lot of overlap between lists since they can go Beast heavy, Construct heavy or a mix. So you tend to see both together which inflates the cost because units in one tend to not be used in others. Compare that to many lists that will change out a unit or two, some solos but remain roughly similar to reuse models across both.

Go and compare something that isn't so skewed, like Cygnar or Khador (however Iron Fang Pikemen spam gets pricey).

Also you are comparing a pretty atypical 40k list that I suspect was done intentionally to be on the cheaper end of things to prove your point.

On the other spectrum is something like this:

http://www.discountgamesinc.com/tournaments/players/view/423

Both lists come to a total of $256.70 (the Ravagores and Scytheans can be magnetized). Two 50 point armies for about $257.

WayneTheGame wrote:
You also chose to compare a Circle Orboros army for Hordes, which tends to not have a lot of overlap between lists since they can go Beast heavy, Construct heavy or a mix. So you tend to see both together which inflates the cost because units in one tend to not be used in others. Compare that to many lists that will change out a unit or two, some solos but remain roughly similar to reuse models across both.

Go and compare something that isn't so skewed, like Cygnar or Khador (however Iron Fang Pikemen spam gets pricey).

Also you are comparing a pretty atypical 40k list that I suspect was done intentionally to be on the cheaper end of things to prove your point.

On the other spectrum is something like this:

http://www.discountgamesinc.com/tournaments/players/view/423

Both lists come to a total of $256.70 (the Ravagores and Scytheans can be magnetized). Two 50 point armies for about $257.

If you read my post I said I took Xareath's Feast of Blade list (He did very well with) and compared it to 3 40k lists that also do VERY good at tournaments there was no bias.

The 3 (40k) lists I posted could win any tournament they go too.

For some reason I can't open your link. Nvm got the link to work. Looks like the kid got 17th at the tournament...I can make a list that gets 17th for 40k for $250.00 too.

I am trying to stay competitive.

What is the cost difference that people are looking for to be significant? To me, $500 for warmachines vs $650 for a 40k army is negligible. Do people actually play WM because it's cheaper? The only people i know that play WM are because they are taking a break because they play too much 40k, or they just wanted to play it too. Maybe i'm the oddball, but i would never not play the game i find more interesting becase it costs a little more.

The reason why I posted this is because I was told by a gaming store I visited that Warmachine was cheaper and better quality.

Personally I like 40k but that intrigued me. I went to the store the next night to do some price shopping and when the owner showed me a 100.00 chariot for Warmachine I wanted to do a price comparison.

As for the better quality he must have been talking about rules because even failcast is better than Warmachine.

is everything WM white metal or do they have plastic as well?

 deviantduck wrote:
What is the cost difference that people are looking for to be significant? To me, $500 for warmachines vs $650 for a 40k army is negligible. Do people actually play WM because it's cheaper? The only people i know that play WM are because they are taking a break because they play too much 40k, or they just wanted to play it too. Maybe i'm the oddball, but i would never not play the game i find more interesting becase it costs a little more.

thats the thing,

some people buy beer based on how cheap it is, some on how good it tastes...

sure you can pay 1$ a beer for lucky lager, sure you can pay 7.5$ for a fine crabbies import,

is lucky lager "better" because its cheaper?

 deviantduck wrote:
is everything WM white metal or do they have plastic as well?

They currently have a mixture between white metal and plastic. But not the same kind of plastic GW has, plastic glue does not work on it, and its inferior in quality. Although they are switching to normal hard plastic like GW uses, the first kit with that will be coming out in January/February.

here's the 2 lists that i took to a local tournament and went 2nd place with (out of ~25 people)

list 1: Epic Haley Tier 4 Stormbringers
Major Victoria Haley
* Thorn
* Stormwall
Storm Strider
Storm Strider
Field Mechaniks (Leader and 5 Grunts)
Storm Tower
Storm Tower
Stormsmith Stormcaller
Stormsmith Stormcaller
Stormsmith Stormcaller

50 pts

list 2: Nemo3 non tier
Artificier General Nemo
* Stormwall
Black 13th Gun Mage Strike Team
Storm Tower
Storm Tower
Stormguard (Leader and 9 Grunts)
Captain Arlan Strangewayes
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist
Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator
Stormsmith Stormcaller
Stormsmith Stormcaller
Stormsmith Stormcaller
Storm Strider

50 pts

Total MSRP between both of them: $533

$ amount shared between them: $268


I have been looking into starting 40k again due to a good group of guys at my FLGS

Here are the armies i thought about starting (at 1850-2000 depending on upgrades):

Tau:
Skyray x2
Devilfish x3
FW squad x 3
Commander x1
Broadsides x6
Riptide x1

$766 MSRP

Eldar:
Autarch on jetbike (1 jetbike plus upgrade kit)
wraithguard x1
Wave Serpent x1
Jetbike squad x6
Crimson Hunter x1
Fire Prism x1
Wraithknight x2

$713 MSRP

40k is priced so high that i will have to go through some extra measures and change my army and list selection so i can afford to get into it again

So I'm not sure what you're smoking but we can keep trading price lists all day

"if" I payed full retail for my E-butcher list (and I did not the local store discounts 10-15% it comes to $394.88 for 50pts
E-butcher-22.99 (Prices in US)
Beserker 22.99
Fenris 44.99
Doom Reavers x 9 32.99 (269.91)

Not a bad deal, Toungue firm in cheek

Goreshade the basterard 22.99
Slayer 34.99
Bane Thralls 49.99

$107.97 and I am at Zero points so far on the army! but that is an extreme example.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just for masochism let me look at my sisters army (again in US)

Cannoness $15
Comand squad 4 melta and simulacram $52.85

2 sisters squads, melt/multi melta (5 woman squads) $ 106

6 immolaters $223.5

3 dominion squads (SS + 4 melta girls) 155.55

3 exorsists 173.25

Total $726.15 (and I still have points to spare!)

 easysauce wrote:


I mean, you dont even need 1850 pts to play 40k... 500 pts is more then enough to play, but 50 pts is basically mandatory for WMH

If you're going to compare bare minimum pts level 40k to bare minimum WMH then you still lose. Battleboxes are £30 each. You can't just compare 500pts 40k to 50pts WMH.

 gumbymoto wrote:
here's the 2 lists that i took to a local tournament and went 2nd place with (out of ~25 people)

list 1: Epic Haley Tier 4 Stormbringers
Major Victoria Haley
* Thorn
* Stormwall
Storm Strider
Storm Strider
Field Mechaniks (Leader and 5 Grunts)
Storm Tower
Storm Tower
Stormsmith Stormcaller
Stormsmith Stormcaller
Stormsmith Stormcaller

50 pts

list 2: Nemo3 non tier
Artificier General Nemo
* Stormwall
Black 13th Gun Mage Strike Team
Storm Tower
Storm Tower
Stormguard (Leader and 9 Grunts)
Captain Arlan Strangewayes
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist
Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator
Stormsmith Stormcaller
Stormsmith Stormcaller
Stormsmith Stormcaller
Storm Strider

50 pts

Total MSRP between both of them: $533

$ amount shared between them: $268


I have been looking into starting 40k again due to a good group of guys at my FLGS

Here are the armies i thought about starting (at 1850-2000 depending on upgrades):

Tau:
Skyray x2
Devilfish x3
FW squad x 3
Commander x1
Broadsides x6
Riptide x1

$766 MSRP

Eldar:
Autarch on jetbike (1 jetbike plus upgrade kit)
wraithguard x1
Wave Serpent x1
Jetbike squad x6
Crimson Hunter x1
Fire Prism x1
Wraithknight x2

$713 MSRP

40k is priced so high that i will have to go through some extra measures and change my army and list selection so i can afford to get into it again

So I'm not sure what you're smoking but we can keep trading price lists all day

Please try to keep your posts in theme with the OP. Your 40k lists are just lists of things you would like to buy and in know way a Competitive list. If you are just collecting 40k can be expensive. Im sure Warmachine can to if your collecting for fun.

Incognito15 wrote:


Please try to keep your posts in theme with the OP. Your 40k lists are just lists of things you would like to buy and in know way a Competitive list. If you are just collecting 40k can be expensive. Im sure Warmachine can to if your collecting for fun.

And what theme would that be? Only evidence that confirms to your obvious bias?

 Grimtuff wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:


Please try to keep your posts in theme with the OP. Your 40k lists are just lists of things you would like to buy and in know way a Competitive list. If you are just collecting 40k can be expensive. Im sure Warmachine can to if your collecting for fun.

And what theme would that be? Only evidence that confirms to your obvious bias?

Just post a competitive list. @ 1850 for 40k. If I see 3 Devilfish placed across from me Im not worried.

My point is for an 1850pt list (Tournament norm for 40k) vs a 50pt (Dual list norm for WM) the prices are very close.

Replace the Devilfish with 3 Riptides, and the 2 Skyrays with 2 of the FW Riptide variants.

The fact that one 40K army can cost you $1000 for 1500 points, while another one will cost you only $500 is part of the problem with 40K.

With WMH, prices are generally equal across the board for unit types... and you're getting entire squads with all the fixings in a single box, not having to spend $100 on two three-model packs, and then $10 a model for 3 more models to cover your heavy weapon/special weapon/special item carrying models for WYSIWYSG.

Kitting out 2 BSS squads can, in some cases, require the purchase of a total of 13 models, depending on how you kit your squads.... and other 40K armies are the same way. The kits of troops don't include all of the options that the squad can have. Like, you get 1 Marine with a Heavy Bolter in the box... but the squad can have 2, or things along those lines (and the BS squad doesn't even get a Sister with a Flamer, that's an entirely separate model!)

.... and if you break the BS Squad into two 5-woman teams, you have to get an additional Sister Superior for Squad #2.

 Psienesis wrote:
Replace the Devilfish with 3 Riptides, and the 2 Skyrays with 2 of the FW Riptide variants.

The fact that one 40K army can cost you $1000 for 1500 points, while another one will cost you only $500 is part of the problem with 40K.

With WMH, prices are generally equal across the board for unit types... and you're getting entire squads with all the fixings in a single box, not having to spend $100 on two three-model packs, and then $10 a model for 3 more models to cover your heavy weapon/special weapon/special item carrying models for WYSIWYSG.

Kitting out 2 BSS squads can, in some cases, require the purchase of a total of 13 models, depending on how you kit your squads.... and other 40K armies are the same way. The kits of troops don't include all of the options that the squad can have. Like, you get 1 Marine with a Heavy Bolter in the box... but the squad can have 2, or things along those lines (and the BS squad doesn't even get a Sister with a Flamer, that's an entirely separate model!)

.... and if you break the BS Squad into two 5-woman teams, you have to get an additional Sister Superior for Squad #2.

Sure. 40k has the potential to cost very little or a thousand dollars to play. WMH has a lower cost variance per point (although this isn't strictly true, as some PP models are much cheaper than others).

However, I don't think anyone should get into either WMH or 40k, if, in the course of a year or two, they expect to spend a lot less than that. I'm not saying that *everyone* spends that, but there's just cool stuff that comes out, and everything from brushes to paint, to tools, to magazines is expensive, and it doesn't really matter whether you say Vallejo or P3. I would say the same thing about most TCGs: don't expect to be competitive if you're not prepared to blow a thousand bucks (to start!).

If you really want a tabletop miniature game and spend the minimum amount, choose something like a miniature board game where there is one fixed price for all the units (like Space Hulk). Or, play a game with a small miniature count, where the lore is not fluid (like X-Wing). Then, you're only paying for expansion sets, rather than an open ended scenario where the company makes new units every month and you have to decide whether to buy miniatures or pay rent.

From a miniatures hobby perspective, Privateer Press is not any cheaper than Games Workshop (at all). Yes, most PP miniatures are metal or have metal, but modellers may also argue that MPP kits have many more build options. Price per miniature, GW is cheaper in almost all the 5 and 10 man squads, and is no more expensive on large units. PP is cheaper on the heroes (like Victoria Haley versus Kaldor Draigo). It's a wash; both are expensive.

I guess I'm saying that any way you cut it, this turns into an expensive hobby, so go into it with your eyes open, not expecting either to be cheap. If it's your first game, trying to budget your spending for the long term by sketching out a list... I don't think that's the best way to get into WMH or 40k. But, I guess, WMH is less problematic, because you're less likely to have an army with which you feel screwed.

Incognito15 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:


Please try to keep your posts in theme with the OP. Your 40k lists are just lists of things you would like to buy and in know way a Competitive list. If you are just collecting 40k can be expensive. Im sure Warmachine can to if your collecting for fun.

And what theme would that be? Only evidence that confirms to your obvious bias?

Just post a competitive list. @ 1850 for 40k. If I see 3 Devilfish placed across from me Im not worried.

My point is for an 1850pt list (Tournament norm for 40k) vs a 50pt (Dual list norm for WM) the prices are very close.

well theres these lists that were top 16 at adepticon:
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Jesse-Newton-Farsight-Tau-Inqusitition-1st-Seed.pdf

clocks in at $733

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Tim-Gorthams-Space-Marines-Space-Marines-Inquisition-2nd-Seed.pdf


comes in at $723

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Tony-Grapandos-Eldar-Dark-Eldar-Inquisition-10th-Seed.pdf

$863 MSRP

edit: forgot to add in the 2nd chaptermaster and the second devastator squad (as there are 4 in the list and only 3 in a box)

Incognito, I'd put something in your original title to make sure your focus is on the stipulation of tournament size armies of 40k vs. WMH, since conversation always trends towards model/dollar comparisons.

Incognito15 wrote:

So your saying I picked the only Warmachine list thats expensive?

Yup. And then you pick and choose what 40k lists are valid on top of that.

To be fair, it depends entirely on the lists used and on how much crossover there is.

At the Scottish masters recently, one of my lists was butcher3 double black dragon. It's pricey. My other was cavalry heavy vlad3. It's extremely pricey. Very little cross over.

Then again, looking at my circle stuff that I take to tournaments (with very good results too - I've got about a 75%win rate with kromac), two warpwolf stalkers, a gorax, stones, blood trackers, shrimps and wolf riders make up a very solid core for both my lists (I play tharn heavy) 34pts with the beasts and riders alone. My circle stuff cost me in total about £250-£300.

You also get 2 different lists with that proposed pricing. More actually if you fiddle around with combinations.

Adding a couple additional purchases could also net you even more lists. Its not like 40k where you need to buy a ton of new stuff to have a new list. One or two swaps and you can have a list which is totally different from the one before even if it has 90% of the same stuff.

Wouldnt it be better to price up the cheapest 40k list and the most expensive and do the same with warmachine.

That way you have a range, so 40k can be this cheap (assuming full price GW models) and 40k can be this expensive and the same for the warmachine.

I would find that more useful than 2 lists I know nothing about.

I think this should be done for all the game systems. Better for comparison.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Wouldnt it be better to price up the cheapest 40k list and the most expensive and do the same with warmachine.

That way you have a range, so 40k can be this cheap (assuming full price GW models) and 40k can be this expensive and the same for the warmachine.

I would find that more useful than 2 lists I know nothing about.

I think this should be done for all the game systems. Better for comparison.

Can't argue with this.

Incognito15 wrote:
Rulebooks dont matter because most of us know how to download them for free.

Can anyone tell me what tournament that allows people to use dowloanded rules and codices? I am sure you need a LEGALLY OBTAINED rules and codices to play 40K and Warmahordes.

So buying the rules and codices to play your army should be calculated into the price tag. Other wise we might as well go to the Dollar Store and buy plastic army guys and play 40K and Warmahordes with our downloaded rules and codices.

Oh wait, we may just use our 3D printers and forget about buying GW or PP now since the OP says it's OK to download rules and codices. How did the Mods let this one go buy, people saying it's ok to download rules and everyone should be doing it or insinuate that is what people should be doing.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Wouldnt it be better to price up the cheapest 40k list and the most expensive and do the same with warmachine.

That way you have a range, so 40k can be this cheap (assuming full price GW models) and 40k can be this expensive and the same for the warmachine.

I would find that more useful than 2 lists I know nothing about.

I think this should be done for all the game systems. Better for comparison.

This would sort of give you a mean price. A median price of the miniatures used in your playgroup would be more useful.

For example, just because the range of armies is $300 to $900 doesn't mean most people spend $600. In that gaming group, most people might actually spend $800.

An even better figure would be to know average (median) annual spend on the armies.

Talys wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Wouldnt it be better to price up the cheapest 40k list and the most expensive and do the same with warmachine.

That way you have a range, so 40k can be this cheap (assuming full price GW models) and 40k can be this expensive and the same for the warmachine.

I would find that more useful than 2 lists I know nothing about.

I think this should be done for all the game systems. Better for comparison.

This would sort of give you a mean price. A median price of the miniatures used in your playgroup would be more useful.

For example, just because the range of armies is $300 to $900 doesn't mean most people spend $600. In that gaming group, most people might actually spend $800.

An even better figure would be to know average (median) annual spend on the armies.

Yes but who wants to figure that out? I thought it would be easier if people did the highest and lowest so you could see at least the price range you can expect to look at from best to worst.

Not perfect but easier.

Davor wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:
Rulebooks dont matter because most of us know how to download them for free.

Can anyone tell me what tournament that allows people to use dowloanded rules and codices? I am sure you need a LEGALLY OBTAINED rules and codices to play 40K and Warmahordes.

So buying the rules and codices to play your army should be calculated into the price tag. Other wise we might as well go to the Dollar Store and buy plastic army guys and play 40K and Warmahordes with our downloaded rules and codices.

Oh wait, we may just use our 3D printers and forget about buying GW or PP now since the OP says it's OK to download rules and codices. How did the Mods let this one go buy, people saying it's ok to download rules and everyone should be doing it or insinuate that is what people should be doing.

Nobody has ever complained about my photocopied codex pages. I own almost everything 7ed but that's beside the point. I'm not going to carry it with me.

Also, making photocopies for personal use is LEGAL in every jurisdiction I'm aware of. This is why libraries have photocopiers.

It is 100% legal to photocopy a book from cover to cover, even one you don't own, under fair use laws. Of course, this never made sense when copies were 5 cents and books were cheap. This is unlike movies or songs, which may or may not be copied for various purposes under different jurisdictions.

That's great, but its largely useless for the purpose of this thread.

If we're going to factor in acquiring rules for free in whatever method, than it would stand equally that we could acquire miniatures for free. At that point, the whole exercise becomes useless.

Hence why retail prices only are used for fair comparison.

The entire thread is clearly biased with the entire goal to prove that WMH is not cheaper than 40k, in some kind of effort to show that 40k isn't a bad game (or similar result). The entire OP is biased to show this, which is further proven by the "That's not a competitive list" approach to dismiss anything that could show up the intended result (ref: "The kid came in 17th in a tournament" to somehow state that a list is bad, despite the fact that you see a lot of common lists in tournaments and it comes down to skill to determine who wins)

The whole premise is flawed when you try to compare 1 40k list to 2 WMH lists and cherry pick the lists. With 40k, most 1850 tournament lists are going to use allies. You're at $60 for the rulebook, $100 for 2 Codex books, and maybe another $30-50 if you're using supplements or data slate characters. As a minimum let's just say $160 for rules. The armies that don't use allies are usually chaos daemons which require $200-300 of summon models and nids which are more expensive as an army anyway. WMH only costs $30 for the rules and you don't need army books. 40k starts at a $130 price disadvantage just based on rules. Before I got into WMH I priced several 50 point tournament lists for each faction. The prices were between $300 and $450 for every list I priced. I thought about starting another 40k army so I priced 1850 tournament lists for several races, they were between $500-700. I don't have the lists handy to copy paste but here's the breakdown I saw.

40k 1850 points
Rules - $130-200
Army - $500-700
Total - $630-900

WMH 50 points
Rules - $30
Army - $300-450
Total - $330-480

Judging by the breakdowns every else has done of actual lists with model prices, I think this is pretty accurate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I think discounts should be applicable here. GWs horrible trade terms and the fact that a lot of their products are direct only are the reason it's difficult to get a good discount on GW products. PP is smart and would rather sell stuff at a lower margin than have it sit on a shelf while their customers go buy competitor's products. I can get anything in the PP catalog at 30% off and free shipping. I can't do the same with GW. The best discount I've seen is 25% and that's only on the 50% of the product line that isn't direct only. If you want Tigurius or a rune priest in TDA, you're paying full retail. I could probably buy 2 WMH 50 point lists with the Mk2 rules for cheaper than just the models for an 1850 40k list.

Blacksails wrote:That's great, but its largely useless for the purpose of this thread.

If we're going to factor in acquiring rules for free in whatever method, than it would stand equally that we could acquire miniatures for free. At that point, the whole exercise becomes useless.

Hence why retail prices only are used for fair comparison.

You're right to a point. The reality is that most players own some rulebooks, but not all of them in 40k, and copies of some materials are pretty common. I think until the mini rulebooks became common, most people at least bought the core rules and 1 codex or two.

It is also factual that bargain hunters can get bigger discounts on GW products than PP products, because GW products have higher gross profit dollars. But all that is neither here nor there. People who play 40k for long enough eventually have a higher median spend than WMH.

WayneTheGame wrote:The entire thread is clearly biased with the entire goal to prove that WMH is not cheaper than 40k, in some kind of effort to show that 40k isn't a bad game (or similar result). The entire OP is biased to show this, which is further proven by the "That's not a competitive list" approach to dismiss anything that could show up the intended result (ref: "The kid came in 17th in a tournament" to somehow state that a list is bad, despite the fact that you see a lot of common lists in tournaments and it comes down to skill to determine who wins)

Yeah, well that's a lost cause. 40k, love it or hate it, is a bigger money sink. WMH thou, is ALSO a large money sink -- just not quite as large.

I don't see that as a problem, frankly, as both would be boring if there was nothing ever new.

Toofast wrote:Also, I think discounts should be applicable here. GWs horrible trade terms and the fact that a lot of their products are direct only are the reason it's difficult to get a good discount on GW products. PP is smart and would rather sell stuff at a lower margin than have it sit on a shelf while their customers go buy competitor's products. I can get anything in the PP catalog at 30% off and free shipping. I can't do the same with GW. The best discount I've seen is 25% and that's only on the 50% of the product line that isn't direct only. If you want Tigurius or a rune priest in TDA, you're paying full retail. I could probably buy 2 WMH 50 point lists with the Mk2 rules for cheaper than just the models for an 1850 40k list.

I get 25% off of all my GW product (no exclusions) and can snag another 5% if I buy a lot of stuff at once (like, $500 will get me that, no problem), or go on a customer appreciation day.

I can get even higher than 30% if I buy some stuff that is finecast that my FLGS doesn't really want to stock.

The margins on both GW and PP products are very good. My FLGS actually leaves out the GW trade order form, so you can see their cost (at least, before any discounts they get).

 Accolade wrote:
Incognito, I'd put something in your original title to make sure your focus is on the stipulation of tournament size armies of 40k vs. WMH, since conversation always trends towards model/dollar comparisons.

The sole comparison of tournament armies is not really fair, since usually one collects much more models and units than those who are taken in a competitive list.
Generally, in WMH it is sufficient to have one unit or Warjack per faction. This does not necessarily hold for solos but those are usually rather cheap.
In 40k the situation is generally much different, where units are often spammed like Serpents or Night Scythes.
This causes a severe cost difference between the systems.

About half the factions often run duplicates of Jacks, Beasts, and certain Solos. Units much more rarely. But jacks, beasts, and solos are the cheapest model type in Warmachine.

In the long run, a complete warmachine collection will easily be as expensive as a 40k collection(single faction of course) but within the system it will be much more flexible. With the warmachine collection you could expect to run just about any of the possible combinations. With 40k, you'd probably only have 3-5 possible lists you'd be able to run(competitively speaking)

You can get the same bargains on PP as you can on GW. Amazon, Miniature Market, etc... regularly have 30% off on everything, WMH and GW products. GW would actually have less access to discounts, we all know GW's extremely restrictive policies on sales and discounts for physical stores.

WayneTheGame wrote:
The entire thread is clearly biased with the entire goal to prove that WMH is not cheaper than 40k, in some kind of effort to show that 40k isn't a bad game (or similar result). The entire OP is biased to show this, which is further proven by the "That's not a competitive list" approach to dismiss anything that could show up the intended result (ref: "The kid came in 17th in a tournament" to somehow state that a list is bad, despite the fact that you see a lot of common lists in tournaments and it comes down to skill to determine who wins)

A five finger discount could apply to models, codexs, rules, etc. I could rob a bank to pay for anything but, it is still theft. Shop smartly and you can get anything. I know it's a few pages late but, telling the community they are smoking something is appallingly rude and this thread is biased. If you are to update this, please put a chart for each army in each game, and compare them fairly.

Anyways, this thread is a mess, and it seems like it was begging for flame wars. Great b8t m8, 11/10.

As an ammendum to the OP, lets also factor in i have bought the 530 dollars worth of armies he mentions.

I will have:
Casters: Krueger 2, Morv2
warbeasts: 2x warpwolf stalkers, ghetorix, gorax
Units: full tharn ravager unit+UA, skinwalkers+UA, 2x stones, bloodtrackers+UA (nuala), Druids+UA
Solos: 2x gallows groves, blackclad wayfarer

Right there, its 85 points worth of stuff, if my math is right in my "sideboard". Right now, i've got all the piece there to field a solid Kromac list, Baldur list, or epic Kaya list that would perform well at any tournament you care to name. If i were to purchase Kromac, epic Kaya, annd Baldur, i could run 2-5 lists at 50points just from that basic sideboard. throw in some shrimps and wolf riders and i've got everything i'd ever need to run any amount of competitive circle builds.

So call it 600 dollars for half a dozen armies worth of different playstyles (control/denial, attrition, alphastrike), different abilities and different synnergies. Seems my money goes further in WMH when you look at it that way OP.

The logic being used to defend WMH is hilarious, especaliy in the face of the supposed bias of the OP.

Yes, it does seem that WMH is a little cheaper, but arguing that it is much cheaper by dividing the cost by two because you can play two diffrent forces or throwing out horde armies as examples. I think what this does prove is that the cost diffrence is no where near what people make it out to be. You can play 40k at the highest levels for not much more WMH. No one has maanged to show how a WMH force is much cheaper than a playable 40k list without using some twisted logic. If someone wants to play one of the games the cost is much the same. Yes, you get more play styles for this cost in WMH, but you can't say "I only want to play one style" you still have to pay the same basic cost. Yes, you can play huge 40k armies at massive costs, but you don't have to. You can go for an elite low model force, but if you want something bigger you can do.

 Steve steveson wrote:
The logic being used to defend WMH is hilarious, especaliy in the face of the supposed bias of the OP.

Yes, it does seem that WMH is a little cheaper, but arguing that it is much cheaper by dividing the cost by two because you can play two diffrent forces or throwing out horde armies as examples. I think what this does prove is that the cost diffrence is no where near what people make it out to be. You can play 40k at the highest levels for not much more WMH. No one has maanged to show how a WMH force is much cheaper than a playable 40k list without using some twisted logic. If someone wants to play one of the games the cost is much the same. Yes, you get more play styles for this cost in WMH, but you can't say "I only want to play one style" you still have to pay the same basic cost. Yes, you can play huge 40k armies at massive costs, but you don't have to. You can go for an elite low model force, but if you want something bigger you can do.

The logic being used to defend 40k is far and away more ridiculous. Look at even just the OP 'let's compare this one cheap 40k tournament army (without factoring price for models that you'd need for summoning) against these two hordes armies which are at the expensive end for a two list format (most two list armies have more crossover than those. One of the great things about WMH is you can buy a 6-7 quid caster and change how your whole army plays, so you can get a large crossover in two lists)'. Oh but what about rules on top of that? 'That's okay you can steal the rules!' Seriously.

Yes, WMH is still expensive. But it's no where near as expensive as 40k to buy in, that's the important thing. Two people can buy a Battlebox for £26 each, and a couple of solos so... £40, and they have a 15pt army. There's no way £40 will get you a 500pt 40k army. Also, OP was ignoring anything like guard, Nid swarms, anything that might have cost more than WMH which I think pretty clearly shows his bias...

Non twisted logic... I only need 50 points to play war machine in a 50 point game ( more than that is gravy.). So comparing single lists

Using the page one example you are looking at $360.

Versus most quoted 40k lists at $500-$800

Pre-rules, adding rules you are looking at $390 vs $600-$1000.

So getting to a "playable force at the tournament standard is $200-$600 cheaper.

Not saying war machine is really that cheap other games are much cheaper, but the buy in for a newer player is substantially cheaper.

And I think this thread highlights the massive difference in the concept of value for money, and price for minatures , that many people trying to defend GW trot out.

As a game system WHFB/40k are the worst value for money, out of all the top 10 table top war games currently available.
And as players think about the whole package, including rules and play style options, tactics, etc, they see better value for money in other game systems.

This does not mean people do not get value from WHFB/40k.
The art and background can inspire people.
And with putting in effort effort to sort out 'issues' with the rules players can enjoy playing their version of the rules .

But that OBJECTIVE comparison to the quality of rules and depth of game play options.Shows WHFB/40k to be lacking compared to other systems.

So collectors , often fail to see the value for money difference that game players see, perhaps?

 Steve steveson wrote:
The logic being used to defend WMH is hilarious, especaliy in the face of the supposed bias of the OP.

Yes, it does seem that WMH is a little cheaper, but arguing that it is much cheaper by dividing the cost by two because you can play two diffrent forces or throwing out horde armies as examples. I think what this does prove is that the cost diffrence is no where near what people make it out to be. You can play 40k at the highest levels for not much more WMH. No one has maanged to show how a WMH force is much cheaper than a playable 40k list without using some twisted logic. If someone wants to play one of the games the cost is much the same. Yes, you get more play styles for this cost in WMH, but you can't say "I only want to play one style" you still have to pay the same basic cost. Yes, you can play huge 40k armies at massive costs, but you don't have to. You can go for an elite low model force, but if you want something bigger you can do.

To be fair, the op was just as guilty of twisting logic Steve- picking and choosing lists, ignoring the book costs etc. And fwiw, folks have put up twin50pt WMH lists costing in the range of two to three hundred dollars. It's a lot less than the op claims?

Now, for what it's worth, repeat this here.

it's generally accepted that WMH is cheaper to start. The buy-in is a lot less, with far less 'front loading' in terms of what you need to spend to get playing.

What people are saying here is that a list for a standard sized game (ie 50pts) will set you back a lot less than for its equivelant in 40k. Then again, there are exceptions. There are expensive WMH lists, and cheap 40k ones. There are cheap WMH ones, and expensive 40k ones.

It's also easier to expand in WMH meaningfully. Change a caster, and your whole army plays differently. You don't need to buy a new army, just a piece or two. Money goes further. More bang fir your buck. Better value. Arguably.

Now I personally don't sell WMH to new gamers on the 'but it's cheaper!' Card. Individual lists might be, but on the whole, I've probably spent more on my WMH 'sideboard' over the last four to five years than I ever have on 40k. It's cheaper to get into yes, it's cheaper to expand your stuff, but at the end of the day, it can be very pricey. But on the oip's narrowly defined topic of twin 50pt lists for tourneys, no, warmAchine can be quite a bit cheaper.

Breng77 wrote:
Non twisted logic... I only need 50 points to play war machine in a 50 point game ( more than that is gravy.). So comparing single lists

Using the page one example you are looking at $360.

Versus most quoted 40k lists at $500-$800

Pre-rules, adding rules you are looking at $390 vs $600-$1000.

So getting to a "playable force at the tournament standard is $200-$600 cheaper.

Not saying war machine is really that cheap other games are much cheaper, but the buy in for a newer player is substantially cheaper.

Sorry but I think your logic is twisted.
Neither 40k nor WM works like buying a 1850 resp. 50 pt army and playing with it all day long.
What players usually want is at least one unit of each type.
In 40k spamming is more common than in WMH where you often need just one unit per type.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Non twisted logic... I only need 50 points to play war machine in a 50 point game ( more than that is gravy.). So comparing single lists

Using the page one example you are looking at $360.

Versus most quoted 40k lists at $500-$800

Pre-rules, adding rules you are looking at $390 vs $600-$1000.

So getting to a "playable force at the tournament standard is $200-$600 cheaper.

Not saying war machine is really that cheap other games are much cheaper, but the buy in for a newer player is substantially cheaper.

Sorry but I think your logic is twisted.
Neither 40k nor WM works like buying a 1850 resp. 50 pt army and playing with it all day long.
What players usually want is at least one unit of each type.
In 40k spamming is more common than in WMH where you often need just one unit per type.

Also because WMH figures tend to come complete, you feel like you're getting more money. I feel a lot better paying $50 for a box for WMH than I do for 40k. And that's before you get into stuff like clear rules vs. talk with your opponent over how you want to handle things, the constant stream of releases that sell out within hours, etc.

Incognito15 wrote:
I knew it would happen. I chose 2 50pt lists because that is what Warmachine tournaments are played at just like I chose an 1850pt list for 40k because that is the standard tournament. Rulebooks dont matter because most of us know how to download them for free.

Also the first CD list has $200 to spend on summoning units.

Well if were arguing that you can get rulws for free, Im arguing I never buy warmachine at less than a 30% discount (as is the case with many warmachine players), while the best youll see on 40k is 20%. Also, iron manning a tournament is an option, i.e. using 1 list, so its unnecessary and in fact incorrect to use 2 lists to justify your argument, especiqlly ae you can often build a second list using the majority of the same models from your first.

And I mean if you really want to argue, youre getting 2 armies for warmachine vs 1 for 40k, so its not apples to apples. Vs the Necron list you posted, youre getting 2 warmachine armies for less than the price of a single necron army.

Invalid. 40k also offers kill team which you can easily play with a single squad of models. Both games offer entry points and growth opportunities. Not pertinent to the original topic.

There havent been rules for kill team since 4th edition. Wait, they may have released a kill team supplement a few years ago... but if they did its out of print.

2 Playable lists has no bearing on the discussion as you NEED 2 playable lists to be competitive.

No you dont, I iron manned my first few warmachine tournaments (despite owning enough to run probably 12 different lists without duplicating model) and did reasonably well.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:


Please try to keep your posts in theme with the OP. Your 40k lists are just lists of things you would like to buy and in know way a Competitive list. If you are just collecting 40k can be expensive. Im sure Warmachine can to if your collecting for fun.

And what theme would that be? Only evidence that confirms to your obvious bias?

That is indeed the theme of the OP and his and his supporters follow up posts.

In any case, simply put, WMH is simply a better, more enjoyable, and more interesting ruleset.

Davor wrote:

Incognito15 wrote:
Rulebooks dont matter because most of us know how to download them for free.

Can anyone tell me what tournament that allows people to use dowloanded rules and codices? I am sure you need a LEGALLY OBTAINED rules and codices to play 40K and Warmahordes.

So buying the rules and codices to play your army should be calculated into the price tag. Other wise we might as well go to the Dollar Store and buy plastic army guys and play 40K and Warmahordes with our downloaded rules and codices.

Just jumping in to point out that Warmachine army books are optional. You can buy the card deck for half the price of a book as I did recently when I considered collecting Cryx. Or if you use the forums to get an idea of what unit does what, you can just buy the models and get the stat cards with them, not needing to buy any books (or DLC rules that were cut from the codex), at all.

Actually if you use the War room App for $6 you get all your armies "crunch" including updates as they add new stuff. For $60 you get ALL the armies rules. War room comes with a list building tool.

What is War Room Uncle Fester?

Davor wrote:
What is War Room Uncle Fester?

It's an app. Please have a look!

Specifically, its an app where you can purchase digital copies of each faction's current cards. It updates whenever a new card for a faction is released so you'll always be up to date.

It also has list building and damage tracking features.

The app is free, but the individual faction decks are roughly $8 each. Or you can buy them in bundles for a discount. You do get some cards for free with the app itself, as well as its rule reference database.

The app is available for Android and Apple products.

Thank you guys, bought some PP stuff but never played. I will check out this app.

So if I get this app and but faction cards, does that mean I don't need to buy the actual cards for $20 each or what ever they sell for now? Was going to say this is off topic, but I think it's perfectly on topic to show how Warmahordes is so much cheaper than GW when it comes to buying rules for the minis.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Non twisted logic... I only need 50 points to play war machine in a 50 point game ( more than that is gravy.). So comparing single lists

Using the page one example you are looking at $360.

Versus most quoted 40k lists at $500-$800

Pre-rules, adding rules you are looking at $390 vs $600-$1000.

So getting to a "playable force at the tournament standard is $200-$600 cheaper.

Not saying war machine is really that cheap other games are much cheaper, but the buy in for a newer player is substantially cheaper.

Sorry but I think your logic is twisted.
Neither 40k nor WM works like buying a 1850 resp. 50 pt army and playing with it all day long.
What players usually want is at least one unit of each type.
In 40k spamming is more common than in WMH where you often need just one unit per type.

Actually it works exactly that way near me, I don't know anyone that owns one unit of each type in their faction, I know plenty of people that build a specific army list. Then often later buying a different army (not even always in the same faction).

Davor wrote:Thank you guys, bought some PP stuff but never played. I will check out this app.

So if I get this app and but faction cards, does that mean I don't need to buy the actual cards for $20 each or what ever they sell for now? Was going to say this is off topic, but I think it's perfectly on topic to show how Warmahordes is so much cheaper than GW when it comes to buying rules for the minis.

The cards come with the models. But the books (there is one for each fiction) are nice to own.

Breng77 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Non twisted logic... I only need 50 points to play war machine in a 50 point game ( more than that is gravy.). So comparing single lists

Using the page one example you are looking at $360.

Versus most quoted 40k lists at $500-$800

Pre-rules, adding rules you are looking at $390 vs $600-$1000.

So getting to a "playable force at the tournament standard is $200-$600 cheaper.

Not saying war machine is really that cheap other games are much cheaper, but the buy in for a newer player is substantially cheaper.

Sorry but I think your logic is twisted.
Neither 40k nor WM works like buying a 1850 resp. 50 pt army and playing with it all day long.
What players usually want is at least one unit of each type.
In 40k spamming is more common than in WMH where you often need just one unit per type.

Actually it works exactly that way near me, I don't know anyone that owns one unit of each type in their faction, I know plenty of people that build a specific army list. Then often later buying a different army (not even always in the same faction).

Yeah, I don't know anyone that's gone and only bought one of each type. I don't know many people who haven't bought onto a second faction at some point too.

Davor wrote:
Thank you guys, bought some PP stuff but never played. I will check out this app.

So if I get this app and but faction cards, does that mean I don't need to buy the actual cards for $20 each or what ever they sell for now? Was going to say this is off topic, but I think it's perfectly on topic to show how Warmahordes is so much cheaper than GW when it comes to buying rules for the minis.

Each model/unit comes with its own card, which is what you will also get on the app. The difference being you can look at stuff you don't own yet.

The 2010 Faction deck isn't a complete set. It only has the cards which had been released as of 2010(when Mk2 came out), its purpose was so everyone at the time the new edition came out could buy it and get the Mk2 versions of all their current stuff. Warroom has all the cards that currently exist, and ever will exist.

Don't buy the faction books unless you want to read the fluff. The only book you need to purchase would be the rulebook, Prime mk2 or Primal mk2(Warmachine and Hordes respectively)

If you buy one rulebook, no need to buy the other one. 95% identical content. You can make do with the free quickstart rules for the opposite magic system if you need to know something.

Davor, if you download the app and purchase the in-app cards, thats all you need to play. The app includes a list building function as well as damage tracking to make games a bit easier on you. FYI, there is a bundle for approx 60 usd that gives you access to every card for every faction, as well as for new factions ad they are released.

To put it in the perspective of 40k vs wmhds, its the equivalent of GW selling you a program for about 80 bucks that contains all the rules needed to play every faction in warhammer 40k and warhammer fantasy, including supplemental books, data slates, white dwarf releases, etc. which will update with the errata releases as well as the releases of new factions or what have you.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Davor, if you download the app and purchase the in-app cards, thats all you need to play. The app includes a list building function as well as damage tracking to make games a bit easier on you. FYI, there is a bundle for approx 60 usd that gives you access to every card for every faction, as well as for new factions ad they are released.

To put it in the perspective of 40k vs wmhds, its the equivalent of GW selling you a program for about 80 bucks that contains all the rules needed to play every faction in warhammer 40k and warhammer fantasy, including supplemental books, data slates, white dwarf releases, etc. which will update with the errata releases as well as the releases of new factions or what have you.

This is where GW is largely lagging behind.
The prizes of rule book and codex provide a hurdle to get into 40k or Fantasy.
Not sure if they wanna change it in the near future.

I love these comparisons between GW and PPs pricing. I understand that they are the two top alongside x wing for the most popular game and that these kind of comparisons are perfectly valid because of it but it still strikes me funny.
They aren't the only games out there.

I won't get caught up in detailed breakdowns, I consider warmahordes a lot cheaper and nothing I've seen here is likely to convince me otherwise, but I will say this.
I've bought a full 300 point tourney army for infinity, and all the rules needed to play it, for less than I would have to pay for the new slim 40k rulebook and a single codex. GWs prices are INSANE and, speaking as an Australian, there is no defending them.