I'll start by saying that our meta is extremely casual, none of us are particularly great, and I can honestly say there is no cheese. As a result none of us are really sure what to do now that someone is going all in to win. He currently has 7 Riptides (three standard, one for farsight, and three Forgeworld Y'varhas). We're considering banning the Y'varhas, because at the moment they are in the experimental stage, but even then he'd run as many of the standard as possible. 500 point game? 1 Riptide. 1000 points, three Riptides. Our main Ork player is getting absolutely wrecked and is considering leaving the game for a few months, I've got a really casual, fluffy dark angels list and keep getting absolutely rolled over.

What can I do to deal with a Riptide at 500 points? I have a chance with my librarian (psychic shriek), but he stands in the far back corners, and psychic shriek is far from reliable. Lascannon squads are dead by turn 2, and the jet movements make it easy for him to stay in cover.

Alternatively, what about at 1000? Terminators are too slow to get into melee, and he has interceptor on all of them. At this point my dev squads get absolutely obliterated, and a librarian is his first target.

Better question, is it worth even playing him? The few wins I had were due to him underestimating my librarian, and all he did was complain for the rest of the night about me being terrible at the game. For once I am legitimately pissed at someone.

Its probably easier to just refuse to play him until he stops spamming riptides

I'd say stop playing him and explain it's not fun for you.

You could try using more competitive lists yourselves but that doesn't do it for you just opt not to play against him. Especially if you have an established group that doesn't like playing that way.

Sorry I just had to respond after seeing the following two threads like this.

- What is the best way to equip triptides?
- Too Many Riptides....

Just made me laugh.

at 500 points he shouldn't have many troops.

Pop em and the markerlights asap then make love to the ground and take cover on an objective the rest of the game

Same with 1000 points.

Stop playing him. If he is the oddball playing this crap then ostracize him until he plays a normal list.

That and in 500 point games, why don't you guys have sensible limits? In my groups, at 500 points, nothing over 2 wounds(exceptions for nids), no 2+ or 2++ saves, no av better than 12 etc. Cuts down on cheese fests and makes sense in the combat patrol that 500 points represents.

As Desubot says.

They are a huge points investment and don't offer a lot of firepower for their points. You mainly pay for durability.

Play to the mission and objectives, take out the support and block line of sight.

I would reccommend just talking to the person and telling them how these max riptide lists are not fun for you to play against (the others should also do the same). If he doesn't do anything then just play with the others and exlude him. Whoever wants to play hi list and him can.

On an alternative note another answer to riptides for DA is melee with their TH/SS termis, plasma talons, melee deathwing knights, or ignore them and use 6 ten man TAC squads w/ rhinos to claim all the objectives. Other helpful options are a number of the forgeworld models can really help, but again this would be ramping up the power level of your group.

Alternatively you could introduce a comp system letting the casual players start with a few void shield generators.

Having him in your gaming group is a potential asset. If you care at all about playing at a competitive level then playing him is invaluable to your goal.

Potentially you could take up the challenge and play 40k the hard way instead of just splashing around in the kiddie pool.

Its very common for people to have a competitive list and a fluffy list and to simply agree upon one or the other before playing.

Maybe its time you prepared a competitive list?

But sure, if you are adamantly opposed to playing 40k competitively then there winds up being no point in playing this player. It's a missed opportunity though. I think you should take up the challenge. It is really only at the competitive level of play that you find out who the "better" player is ("better" being defined here from a game tactics perspective).

What would you say is a more competitive way of dealing with riptides at a 500 point level is then?

 kingbobbito wrote:
What would you say is a more competitive way of dealing with riptides at a 500 point level is then?

white scars bikes and grav guns

drop pod melta/grav gun also offer some avenues

those allow you to play to the mission and to put the Riptide in assault should you need to


Here is a video to check out

http://www.miniwargaming.com/content/space-marines-vs-tau-warhammer-40k-battle-report-banter-batrep-ep-62

1st suggestion, he has to have permission to use experimental rules. do not give permission. Often FW experimental rules are too good for cost then scaled back to "reasonable" but still better than codex choices.

at 500 pts you pretty much ignore the riptide, or bring something that can tarpit it, ID it, or sniper it off the table.

Kill marker lights first. They're not nearly as scary without ignores cover or boosted BS. Don't target them unless you're absolutely sure you have the means to kill them.

That being said, 3 riptides does not a casual 1000 point list make, so a mixture of talking to him about his lists and playing smart around the riptides is probably the best approach.

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Kill marker lights first. They're not nearly as scary without ignores cover or boosted BS. Don't target them unless you're absolutely sure you have the means to kill them.

That being said, 3 riptides does not a casual 1000 point list make, so a mixture of talking to him about his lists and playing smart around the riptides is probably the best approach.

I prefer playing against 3 riptides in a 1000 point list. That many riptides makes the list weaker. 1 riptide + broadsides would be better for Tau.

Maybe, but I still wouldn't call it casual.

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Maybe, but I still wouldn't call it casual.

Agreed. But my advice was to prepare a competitive list.

You could also go silly goose and Rad + enfeeble with a power fist

But really Torch out the pathfiders or whatever markerlights they are using, and probably go speedy with some bikes

Go jinking for 4+ saves in the open (possibly better IIRC with wargear or whatever the shroud thing is)

kingbobbito wrote:
Better question, is it worth even playing him? The few wins I had were due to him underestimating my librarian, and all he did was complain for the rest of the night about me being terrible at the game. For once I am legitimately pissed at someone.

Ugh, I missed this part of the OP, somehow. If he's calling you a bad player after you beat him with a casual list, then eesh I don't even see it being worth playing the guy. I know a lot places (my own area for instance) don't necessarily have a large pool of players to draw from, so losing a player (even a WAAC, sore loser) can suck. That being said, I'd have a come-to-jesus talk with the fellow and if that doesn't work forget him.

col_impact wrote:

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Maybe, but I still wouldn't call it casual.

Agreed. But my advice was to prepare a competitive list.

Point taken. OP said his group is very casual though. That being said, playing competitively can be just as fun as long as everyone's on the same page.

You basically have three options.

1. Don't play him.
You don't have to spend your hobby time doing things you don't enjoy.

2. Realize that losing games is, in fact, not the end of the world.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you refuse to run good lists and improve your tactics, you will lose games. Go with whatever you'd rather do.

3. Get better at 40k.
You don't need netlists or cheese or whatever term you use to describe things you don't like. You just need tactics and a realistic view on what Riptides can achieve and how they achieve it. Don't panic just because your opponent has more than one of something the internet tells you is totes OP. Unsupported they are pretty unimpressive. So, destroy the supporting units. And, having the tools in your list to deal with MCs does not make your list douchey. Y'vahras, by the way, are not OP. They have fewer wounds than regular Riptides and need to be in places Tau players don't really like being. And then you can kill them.

I might come across a bit biased in presenting the options, but for the record; all of these options are perfectly valid.

 kingbobbito wrote:
What would you say is a more competitive way of dealing with riptides at a 500 point level is then?

Honestly DA are pretty disadvantaged at 1000 pts and less anyways but the major trouble shooting units at low pts levels are;
1) Plasma or melta vets in a drop pod. Veterans are not great most of the time but they do well for a surgical removal of a hard target.
2) Plasma or melta on your ravenwing bikers. This is honestly better in higher point games as ravenwing troops plus sammy to unlock them is expensive.
3) Forgeworld plasma executioner

There are a number of other options but they require higher point games, ravenwing command squads are a good example. Also allies can help a lot.

Alternatively you can kill the rest of the army and ignore the riptide. Without the markerlights it will struggle to meaningfully contribute in an objectives game. That is unless you happen to bring deathwing which will get mulched...except deathwing at below 1000 pts is extremely unbalanced anyways.

BTW you may be tempted to say lascannons and plasma cannons are useful against riptides but unfortunately that is largely not true as you noted they get eliminated before contributing meaningfully and don't have the number of attacks to get through the invulnerable and cover saves the riptide has. Multiple Str 7+ AP2- is what you need to kill a riptide.

Have you tried speaking to him?

 kingbobbito wrote:
I'll start by saying that our meta is extremely casual, none of us are particularly great, and I can honestly say there is no cheese. As a result none of us are really sure what to do now that someone is going all in to win. He currently has 7 Riptides (three standard, one for farsight, and three Forgeworld Y'varhas). We're considering banning the Y'varhas, because at the moment they are in the experimental stage, but even then he'd run as many of the standard as possible. 500 point game? 1 Riptide. 1000 points, three Riptides. Our main Ork player is getting absolutely wrecked and is considering leaving the game for a few months, I've got a really casual, fluffy dark angels list and keep getting absolutely rolled over.

What can I do to deal with a Riptide at 500 points? I have a chance with my librarian (psychic shriek), but he stands in the far back corners, and psychic shriek is far from reliable. Lascannon squads are dead by turn 2, and the jet movements make it easy for him to stay in cover.

Alternatively, what about at 1000? Terminators are too slow to get into melee, and he has interceptor on all of them. At this point my dev squads get absolutely obliterated, and a librarian is his first target.

Better question, is it worth even playing him? The few wins I had were due to him underestimating my librarian, and all he did was complain for the rest of the night about me being terrible at the game. For once I am legitimately pissed at someone.

Well it sounds like your meta is facing an evolution. I don't think not playing him is entirely the right answer because if its a casual environment, then losing should be no big deal (but we all know it is no fun to lose 100% of your games).

At 500 points, instant Death weapons are your best bet against them. In addition, any power that reduces or attacks leadership is worth looking at. 2 5 man squads and all Psykers to battle him with. a Drop pod might help ensure you're in range for it. But at 500 points, a limit of one MC of any kind and no Unbound armies is probably wise.

At 1000 points the options open up. Against this fellow who loves his Riptides, you really need to drop pod. Right on top of him. Gives him EXACTLY one round to do anything about ti and then you wreck him in melee. Riptides cant handle melee. StormShield and Thunderhammers seem to do the trick. A pair of those units and a drop pod for two Psykers, Psychic Shriek one to death, brace for impact and then charge.

Also a 2 MC limit seems advisable at this points value.

None of this guarantees a win nor a loss. But it does guarantee a reasonable game.

Kingbobbito what armies do you have access to ?

Yeah if he asks for a game I'd be like "0-1 riptides."
Those things are so atrociously undercosted, that it's like playing against an army a couple hundred points above yours when 3 of them are taken.

Riptides lost a lot of thear power in 7th. They have no way to get twin linked and ignore cover is difficult.
They become OK when you kill their support.

Anything causing a leadership test.
Play to the mission. (Consider all Maelstrom)
Tau are weak vs Psychers
Daemon spawn.
Kill markerlithgts.
Kill troops.


Have your ork player start playing mega cheeze at 1000 pts
Mek
2xGrots
Stompa

Have your eldar player spam wraithknights. bring a revnant titan. Run a seer council.

Use invisibility.

Centurion star with grav guns

Grey knights with force

Dark Eldar w Eldar allies deep strike wraith guard without scatter.

Talk to the guy. 7 riptides is like bringing 7 of the same best thing in each codex. No casual likes to fight against 7 wave serpents (plus its carriage), 7 screamer stars, 7 full-grav bike command squads, 7 grav-centurion units, 7 Annihilation Barges, etc.

If you guys are interested in amping up your play level, the guy can indirectly hep you (as explained by col_impact and others). If you guys rather a casual atmosphere and just playing for the fun, then the new dude is not a good influence - talk to him (as a group, but not as a threat) that your club rather fun games than all-win ones (not that you can have both in one match, but it'll require both players to be satisfied by this kind of game, which clearly it isn't your case).

I already tried talking to him about it, saying that no one is really building a tournament list, that some of our guys only run models that they can afford, etc etc, that don't you think it's a bit much in a 500 point, but his only response is that we don't like losing.

Really, the issue isn't losing, it's more of a sportsmanship thing. With the rest of us it's a "May the best man win" scenario, we never build armies that are designed to take on one specific race (against the ork player he runs max broadsides), and throw in the fact that he trash talks. Losing is one thing, but he's just trying to piss us off now.

I will look at buying some drop pods I guess. I've currently got around 1500, soon to be 2000 (once I paint a nephilim and black knights from the new expansion GW released), so I figure they'd be a good addition soon anyways. I do wonder, if he takes interceptor on it will the pods still be effective?

Well, I suppose a compromise is in order.

If you ask him to keep his lists somewhat reasonable, but still including riptides, then you can up the power level of your lists if you still wish to play him, assuming he's a decent guy otherwise.

If you play SM try to alpha strike the riptide (command squad with bikes and grav guns and khan for scout, Sternguard bomb, legion of the damned, or even grav cents in a drop pod). The damned things are allusive little gaks so you'll have to end it in one or at most two phases. If he has multiple ones work on each one at a time and work your way down. Make sure you guys play bound too to avoide a lot of cheese if you aren't. Other than that try different units and tactics. Or answer back with screamer star etc. By the way your Ork friend doesn't have an army that's competative :/ I played orks and anything not fluffy sucks. You could just be honest and tell him to stop or put a sanction on playing him until he stops or leaves. This is a game at the end of the day, so it's a source of entertainment and not a crazy power gaming situation that sounds like what you are in. Best of luck!

 kingbobbito wrote:
......, but his only response is that we don't like losing.?

Your missing the simple and obvious answer. Just dont play him. And if he asks why, tell him its because hes being a jackass. He will keep acting like that as long as anyone plays him. If no one plays him, then he will either have to change his attitude or go somewhere else.

Just to clarify, when you spoke to him, what did you ask in particular?

Not to include Riptides at all, or to limit them in some capacity?

If the former, he has every right to refuse, as asking someone not to use a model they like is fairly ridiculous. If the latter, then you three options. The first being to keep playing him and lose. The second is to up your own game and list and compete closer to what he seems to enjoy. The third is to not play him at all.

Its gakky, but I suppose these things are bound to happen in a game as well balanced as 40k.

Honestly trying to kill the Riptide is playing to its strengths. Take out markerlights, put something in melee with it, and/or grab objectives and stay out of LoS.

If he's hanging way back, put more terrain on the board that's big enough to hide smaller units. If you play with a pretty clear board the Riptide will seem a lot tougher. With terrain you can force him to come forward if he wants to get a better angle.

Tau are good at many things, but most of all they are good at melting point-concentrated units, like LR, MC, Kitted out squads.

When you play against Tau you need 2 of 3 things to succeed

1. Redundancy; never take one of something and have it be even remotely close to the backbone of your strategy or even as a finesse touch. Make sure that unit has a backup, Got a single bike squad? Get three more. Only one Dev. Squad? Get another and deploy it on the other side of the board. One Dreadknight? Take two, at least one will make it into combat with the Riptide.

2. Speed; Foot-slogging is a no-no, for obvious reasons, the superior range and extra shots it will get will wear you down as the walk backwards. If you have Rhinos, accept the fact they WILL get popped after their 18 inch move. Drop pods? Be prepared to lose some if Interceptor is a thing (Redundancy remember? Should have been three pod squads). Jump-N-Shoot can be annoying if he can always get out of LoS. Bikers are naturally fast, tough, and shooty; they are a great unit.

3. Power; whether it be Weight of fire or High STR low AP, you have to assign the right targets to the right units. Yea 10 bolter shots won't drop it, but 4-combi grav or melta? It is gonna be hurtin. Even two autocannons a turn will be taking a wound off a turn. Or hell if you got the speed, which if you are a biker you do, get into assault and rip him a new one with Smashfucker.

SM Bikes got everything they need to kick a riptide down. Just remember though, if you can't take it down in one turn, don't bother with it, because if the entire army shoots it and it still lives? You will not have reduced the enemy strength at all. GK vs Tau tends to go at a rather fast pace... turn 3 tends to spell out how the game will end barring lucky maelstrom cards. SM Bikes have the ability to choose how they engage, make sure you are playing on a field with LoS Blockers he can't shoot what he can't see.

We really do need it keep reiterating that playing the mission is the way to beat cheese tau.

AP2 only gets you so far if it doesn't ignore cover.

At best he will have the riptide, 2 troops, possibiily pathfinders or a markmander. of which he wont be able to attach to the riptide anymore.

a few decent shots with a TFC or Whirlwind will do the trick. OR drop pod an ironclad with double heavy flamers (if DA has that) will reduce his ability to ignore cover significantly.

That and if he is really tailoring try borrowing a friend army that is way different from DA then call him out when he taks nothing but plasmas

that kinda crap needs to be stiffiled ASAP.

From my experience as footslogging ork player - ignore riptides, use blos as much as possible to hide from broadsides. And spread out. They're not unbeatable. But some decent ammount of los blocking terrain in the middle of the board always make games more interesting and in this case, fair.

 doktor_g wrote:
Anything causing a leadership test.
Play to the mission. (Consider all Maelstrom)
Tau are weak vs Psychers
Daemon spawn.
Kill markerlithgts.
Kill troops.


Have your ork player start playing mega cheeze at 1000 pts
Mek
2xGrots
Stompa

Have your eldar player spam wraithknights. bring a revnant titan. Run a seer council.

Use invisibility.

Centurion star with grav guns

Grey knights with force

Dark Eldar w Eldar allies deep strike wraith guard without scatter.

This sounds like one of those "fighting fire with fire just ends up with the house burnt down" things. If his group is a bunch of have-fun casual players, they should stick to what they enjoy. Just tell Riptides'r'us guy that he's not what any of you are looking for in a game, and he should look for a more competitive-minded group.

You could alter their stats too. Not to make the guy's money and effort lost completely. Make it more reasonable. Say, upthe cost or something. If you absolutely can't figure a way to deal with it. But mind you, they're not an auto-win thing. Riptides rely on markers to do some real damage. Otherwise, they're plain avoidable. Especially with orks. They just can't kill enough of the green guyz. What? 4-5 dead orks per turn from a riptide? Yep, kill 30-points worth per turn with your 200 pts monster.

Interceptor is useful, but it doesnt benefit from Markerlights and it can be overloaded.

Just limit him to 1MC per 500 points. I think thats a reasonable request if that's the kinda meta you have.

BTW, Rad Grenades are also pretty cool against Riptides. They can be gotten through Codex: Inquisition allies. They lower toughness for a round which makes instant killing them with SATR 10 more possible. Just a thought also.

 Jancoran wrote:
Interceptor is useful, but it doesnt benefit from Markerlights and it can be overloaded.

Just limit him to 1MC per 500 points. I think thats a reasonable request if that's the kinda meta you have.

BTW, Rad Grenades are also pretty cool against Riptides. They can be gotten through Codex: Inquisition allies. They lower toughness for a round which makes instant killing them with SATR 10 more possible. Just a thought also.

Running as many Riptides as possible is a blunder. Let him make that mistake and then learn how to exploit that blunder.

I dunno...

If you're playing casually, what about a handicap?
Lets say Orks +20% points. CSM +15%. Eldar +0%.

Or just have WAAC days and casual days.

I've also found public ridicule works....

What missions are you playing ? If not playing Maelstrom, play these and play the mission rather than the Riptides.

kingbobbito wrote:The few wins I had were due to him underestimating my librarian, and all he did was complain for the rest of the night about me being terrible at the game.

kingbobbito wrote:I already tried talking to him about it, ... but his only response is that we don't like losing.

It takes a real asshat to call someone terrible at a game after losing to them.
He clearly isn't playing the same game you and your group are playing. You were having fun before him, have fun without him.
Otherwise, introduce him to a new game. It involves socks, soap, and a dark night in the parking lot. I'm sure you can guess the rules.

There are many counters to riptides, with some armies possessing more than others.

However this is not the issue here.

3 riptides at 1000 points is a little excessive, but not unbeatable. Fielding 7 though will ruin the game for some people.

If spamming is becoming an issue , then introducing some houserules like highlander might help.

Riptides are that bad, just spam plasma. I don't see how its any different to spam dreadknights as how often do you see only one? Not very often, they're always taken in pairs or triples so why can't riptides betaken that way too?

 kingbobbito wrote:
I already tried talking to him about it, saying that no one is really building a tournament list, that some of our guys only run models that they can afford, etc etc, that don't you think it's a bit much in a 500 point, but his only response is that we don't like losing.

Really, the issue isn't losing, it's more of a sportsmanship thing. With the rest of us it's a "May the best man win" scenario, we never build armies that are designed to take on one specific race (against the ork player he runs max broadsides), and throw in the fact that he trash talks. Losing is one thing, but he's just trying to piss us off now.

I will look at buying some drop pods I guess. I've currently got around 1500, soon to be 2000 (once I paint a nephilim and black knights from the new expansion GW released), so I figure they'd be a good addition soon anyways. I do wonder, if he takes interceptor on it will the pods still be effective?

Welcome to your first TFG experience. The best part about them, though, is you can just not play against them. If he asks you for a game, very politely refuse a game. If he calls you names for refusing a game, just politely let him know that he is looking for a different game experience than you are and walk away.

He's got a winner complex. He doesn't want a challenge, all he wants is another victory tally. Some people are into that, but that doesn't mean you have to be.

If you must insist on playing with him for some masochistic reason, get your pals together and offer a 2v2 game. Maybe working with a partner will open his mind a bit. Most likely he'll just berate his teammate for poor play and piss them off though.

You have a few options -

1. Refuse to play him and get everyone else to refuse to play him. He'll either change or leave.

2. Go WAAC to defeat him and get everyone else to do the same. Might be harder to implement, but if you guys start stomping him all the time he might get the message.

3. Troll tactic. Get everyone to worship him. Fawn over his every move, "What a masterful strategy!" etc. Drip everything with sarcasm. When he wins simply say stuff like, "Who could stand in the way of a God like you?".
After a few days like that, he's going to annoyed as hell.

 Otto Weston wrote:
You have a few options -

1. Refuse to play him and get everyone else to refuse to play him. He'll either change or leave.

2. Go WAAC to defeat him and get everyone else to do the same. Might be harder to implement, but if you guys start stomping him all the time he might get the message.

3. Troll tactic. Get everyone to worship him. Fawn over his every move, "What a masterful strategy!" etc. Drip everything with sarcasm. When he wins simply say stuff like, "Who could stand in the way of a God like you?".
After a few days like that, he's going to annoyed as hell.

LOL number 3 is so good.

 Farseer Pef wrote:

Otherwise, introduce him to a new game. It involves socks, soap, and a dark night in the parking lot. I'm sure you can guess the rules.

Go unbound.

 Otto Weston wrote:
You have a few options -

1. Refuse to play him and get everyone else to refuse to play him. He'll either change or leave.

2. Go WAAC to defeat him and get everyone else to do the same. Might be harder to implement, but if you guys start stomping him all the time he might get the message.

3. Troll tactic. Get everyone to worship him. Fawn over his every move, "What a masterful strategy!" etc. Drip everything with sarcasm. When he wins simply say stuff like, "Who could stand in the way of a God like you?".
After a few days like that, he's going to annoyed as hell.

I like number three. I will be using that against TFG at my gaming club

You can also swap armies once in a while.

 kingbobbito wrote:
I already tried talking to him about it, saying that no one is really building a tournament list, that some of our guys only run models that they can afford, etc etc, that don't you think it's a bit much in a 500 point, but his only response is that we don't like losing.

Really, the issue isn't losing, it's more of a sportsmanship thing. With the rest of us it's a "May the best man win" scenario, we never build armies that are designed to take on one specific race (against the ork player he runs max broadsides), and throw in the fact that he trash talks. Losing is one thing, but he's just trying to piss us off now.

I will look at buying some drop pods I guess. I've currently got around 1500, soon to be 2000 (once I paint a nephilim and black knights from the new expansion GW released), so I figure they'd be a good addition soon anyways. I do wonder, if he takes interceptor on it will the pods still be effective?

Then your group should either ignore his attempts to play with it or go to his level (in list building, not behavior). As pointed out by others, he got a winner complex.

Use nothing but troops inside AV14. Wait until the final round and take the objectives. Anything not in AV14 put in drop pods with plasma or grav weapons.

My current Legion list would have a ball with this. Enough terminators and assault vehicles to brighten his day and enough long range support in improved cover to really make him question his list design. Then there is the superheavy. I think my wraith heavy elder would have a good time too, mass D and Distort weapons for the win.

Due to what you said about casual group with one a-hole that wants to cheese out, the best advice is to ignore the guy and just not play him. Is he 12?

 Thud wrote:
You basically have three options.

1. Don't play him.
You don't have to spend your hobby time doing things you don't enjoy.

2. Realize that losing games is, in fact, not the end of the world.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you refuse to run good lists and improve your tactics, you will lose games. Go with whatever you'd rather do.

3. Get better at 40k.
You don't need netlists or cheese or whatever term you use to describe things you don't like. You just need tactics and a realistic view on what Riptides can achieve and how they achieve it. Don't panic just because your opponent has more than one of something the internet tells you is totes OP. Unsupported they are pretty unimpressive. So, destroy the supporting units. And, having the tools in your list to deal with MCs does not make your list douchey. Y'vahras, by the way, are not OP. They have fewer wounds than regular Riptides and need to be in places Tau players don't really like being. And then you can kill them.

I might come across a bit biased in presenting the options, but for the record; all of these options are perfectly valid.

I'll just reply to this post in particular because almost every other post can basically be summarised as 1)

If you refuse to run good lists and improve your tactics, you will lose games. Go with whatever you'd rather do.

Your core point here to run harder lists if willing is fine and I agree, but for perspective:

Reducing your army list's variation by tailoring it to Riptide counters is the dumbest, most fun destroying thing I've ever had to do in 40k. Being forced to field 2-3 Dev Squads with Lascannons, or spam flyers, or take far less of what I want to bring with me sucks. Even when I'm playing competitively, I always vary my lists so each game I play is different, but with Riptides in consideration every single list I make for my IG and SM has the same starting format.

Suggesting the idea that this guy just can't take losing is poor and I feel bile rise in my throat every time I see someone aligned to competitive play stereotype a struggling friendly player that way; if you play Riptides with a list that isn't heavily tailored to them, your chances of winning drop through the floor, and sometimes they become practically non-existent if your opponent's luck isn't terrible. Playing a game you know you've lost before you've begun, or into the first turn, sucks, isn't fun, and is frankly depressing. Watching your lines of Marines fight across the board with Orks is always great fun, but being obliterated by overpowered models on the other side of the board you have no hope in hell of killing isn't.

Get better at 40k.

No. No, no, no, no. Putting it simply ; "L2P" is never an acceptable response to a tactics thread.

And yes, there's the usual chorus of bs about targeting everything else or not dying to multiple turns of basically infinite range, near infinite LOS S8 AP2 large blasts. Yeah, sure, Sun Tzu.

If I had to give you two options, they'd be these:

1) If you're willing to play competitively and drop pretense of fluff and theme to beat this guy, do it. You'll want Sternguard/Command Squads/Bikers/Flyers (Storm Raven in particular) and Lascannon Devastators. They're your best shot.

2) If you don't want to expand your army to do 1), or or don't want to play competitively etc etc, don't challenge him to a game and tell him you'd prefer a more toned down game, and tell him your conditions for playing politely.

Outside of 40k he is a decent guy, and I'll always feel bad for pushing away someone that like 40k. Maybe over the next months I'll add some more competitive aspects to my list, but for the time being I think I'll try to talk him into playing something other than riptide spam.

I'll try again to talk him into just running one riptide at 1000 points (which I'm fine with, one is quite easy to ignore / deal with). 500 I'll definitely ask no riptide. In the meantime, if he does refuse those ideas, I think I'll ask him for a nice friendly game of kill team (200 points, each model is a unit for those that haven't played it).

 kingbobbito wrote:
...and all he did was complain for the rest of the night about me being terrible at the game. For once I am legitimately pissed at someone.

I wouldn't play him anymore, not because of his lists, but because of what I quoted from the OP. I'm not going to stand across the table from someone for any length of time after they prove to me that they have horrible social skills. It's just not worth it...

Honestly, you can just try and play objectives, but that definitely puts you on your back heels if he has any markerlight support.

Assuming he has no markerlight support, playing objectives becomes vastly easier, and it is quite difficult to fit that and a riptide in 500 points. My suggestion would possibly be a squad of grav gun bikers. At 1000 points add in a shield eternal guy, and you can rock a riptide easily.

As an Eldar player, I would simply just counter with a wraithknight :p.

I'm assembling a squad of black knights at the moment, so I figure 3 twin-linked plasma should do a good bit of damage. If not, we have hammers with rending.

Bobbito, what does he use on his Riptides at 500 points ? Are they base Riptides or do they have upgrades?

This isnt that obnoxiously loud guy at Gamesworkshop: Bowie who plays Tau and is the definition of a douchenozzle is it?

He seems to change it around every couple games. He's played them with nothing, but he ran interceptor (without informing me) when I tried to counter it with deathwing. I know he's also given them feel no pain before, or whatever lets him reroll his nova charge. Sorry, I'm not too familiar with Tau to begin with, so not sure what all else.

Edit: Is it fire-caste pilot or something like that?

OP, you can't ask him to take a sub-optimal list, the riptide is the Tau's best unit so you can't expect them not to use it.

This is the argument put forward by every GK player when you try to get them to not spam dreadknights, so why aren't Tau allowed to do the same?

If my math serves me, you'll need 7 Black knights rapid firing to reliably take down a single riptide (without an over charged shield) in the shooting phase. I'm not fond of assaulting a riptide with units that don't have an invuln save.

The thing is, our grey knight player says he'll never run more than one in a small game, and never in a 500 point. It's the same way I won't run deathwing knights in a 500 point, which are arguably one of my best units. Especially since some of our players don't have a lot of money and can't afford the big models, they only play with the cheapest stuff or what they can get cheap from friends, we never run anything crazy against them. Our ork player has nothing but boys, grots, and some koptas, so I'm not going to run something like a land raider or a ton of terminators.

Riptide -180
+ Interceptor-5
+ FNP-35

= 220 pts


SM Bike squad-63
+2 Gravguns-30
+1 Combi Grav -10

103

So for 206 points you can take 2 base units of Bikes and get 9 shots that wound on 2+ that are AP2 per unit. So in 1 round you have 18 shots, 12 will hit, 10 will wound and he will save about 3-4. Thats a dead Riptide on Turn 1.

Go have some fun with Rad Grenades and a Orbital Bombardment for more fun at higher points too.

 Blacksails wrote:
Well, I suppose a compromise is in order.

If you ask him to keep his lists somewhat reasonable, but still including riptides, then you can up the power level of your lists if you still wish to play him, assuming he's a decent guy otherwise.

He doesn't sound like a "decent guy otherwise." We had this problem with a local Necron player. He insisted on bringing a Trancendent C'tan with the D-Flamer and the 40-milliond6 shot powers and two Night Scythes at 1500 points. And he was a jerk. We played with him a couple of times until the above observations became well known in our group and then we...just stopped playing with him.

Tell the ork player at 1000 points to bring a green tide. 100 orks , the riptides will not have enough shooting.

 kingbobbito wrote:
Sorry, I'm not too familiar with Tau to begin with, so not sure what all else.

Oh boy

I would highly suggest you ask to borrow his books and read through em both (90% sure he is using far sight enclave.)

Better to be on the safe side and not get taken advantage of. as well i would high suggest you guys use written lists for no fudgecicles.

He runs mass broadside against the ork player, instead of being decent and using the same list against everyone (like the rest of us do). We are considering starting a "tournament"-ish thing so that for the next month or two you'll have to use the same list against everyone. That should sort some stuff out. And if it is just 500 points we'll definitely put in rules about max wounds and max AV.

I'll definitely borrow the store copy for Tau now that you mention it, he does have written lists made up most of the time but I've never actually read if everything is accurate and what gives what rules. I'm a nice person sadly, and wouldn't consider that someone would cheat me like that. I always start by explaining what equipment everyone has and what it does if they've never played against Dark Angels.

So he list taylors aswell..

Looking through the codex is eye-opening. I couldn't believe it when I first did.

"Oh, so ignore cover, tank hunter, skyfire, interceptor cost you how much?"

"Sixty points to put all those buffs on whatever you want? How nice for you..."

Belac Ynnead wrote:
Looking through the codex is eye-opening. I couldn't believe it when I first did.

"Oh, so ignore cover, tank hunter, skyfire, interceptor cost you how much?"

"Sixty points to put all those buffs on whatever you want? How nice for you..."

Not quite, if you were putting all that on the buffmander, the VT and EWO don't apply to other models, so that is 25 for each model who wants to use both.
PENchip is limited to one per detachment (and debated on if it works on Deep Strike).

Not saying it isn't good, but the cost does go up quickly.

For your "That Guy", definitely stop him from using the experimental rules for the R'varna and Y'vahra, those are only meant to be used in good faith.

Try and force him to play objectives and get a lot of LoS blocking terrain so he can't gun down your armies from range. The Riptides can only move 6" to setup their shots so their mobility isn't nearly as good as the Y'Vahra, they will still use the 2d6 JSJ to setup for next turn, but you will still have time to move to more cover before the shot comes in. Again, play to objectives so he may win the battle, but lose the war since Riptide's can't secure objectives and at best tar pit themselves to keep you from controlling it. You will need to watch out if he uses the Riptide's 4d6 Nova JSJ move to get in position in the assault phase, but that also means his guns or shield wont be Nova Charged.

For killing the Riptide, my signature says it all, it is not simple. Many times I kill my own Riptides with failed Nova rolls. The thing that normally stops my Riptides 'dead' is an assault unit or a tar pit unit who just holds it there for the rest of the game. Even with the high Strength and AP 2 it just can't get enough hits to kill them all and Tau doesn't like to go into CC to help. If he does get ballsy and send in another Riptide to help, that just means you get to tie up another Riptide with a single unit.

I was exaggerating a little bit. But not that much, and that's kind of the point. Tau rock.

 Nilok wrote:

Try and force him to play objectives and get a lot of LoS blocking terrain so he can't gun down your armies from range. The Riptides can only move 6" to setup their shots so their mobility isn't nearly as good as the Y'Vahra and also play to objectives so he may win the battle, but lose the war.

You will need to watch out if he uses the Riptide's 4d6 Nova JSJ move to get in position in the assault phase, but that also means his guns or shield wont be Nova Charged.

I think this is good advice. I play a foot-dar list with 7 bright lances in it, and even I think that warhammer just gets better with each piece of LoS blocking terrain that gets put on the table. It makes the game more tactical. There's nothing more boring than planet q-ball.

Belac Ynnead wrote:
I was exaggerating a little bit. But not that much, and that's kind of the point. Tau rock.

 Nilok wrote:

Try and force him to play objectives and get a lot of LoS blocking terrain so he can't gun down your armies from range. The Riptides can only move 6" to setup their shots so their mobility isn't nearly as good as the Y'Vahra and also play to objectives so he may win the battle, but lose the war.

You will need to watch out if he uses the Riptide's 4d6 Nova JSJ move to get in position in the assault phase, but that also means his guns or shield wont be Nova Charged.

I think this is good advice. I play a foot-dar list with 7 bright lances in it, and even I think that warhammer just gets better with each piece of LoS blocking terrain that gets put on the table. It makes the game more tactical. There's nothing more boring than planet q-ball.

Indeed, an awesome table is as important as the armies and the game. If it looks awesome, even losing isn't as bad.

Also, if he tries to go for a lower terrain density (somehow) or complains about it, try and have the tables setup before people arrive so it looks cool, but also has a lot of blocking and tell everyone that you are not doing random terrain allocation and instead you just roll for table deployment/edge.

Don't play with this kid.

whining aside, the issue is that the meta just doesn't want this level of... well lets call it what it is: a total lack of imagination on this dudes part.

So you gotta' ALL have a little meeting and say look: goal of this intervention is to keep playing with you. That outcome cant happen if we dont have a gentlemans agreement that we limit the MC's.

The laternative is you allow us to play your army against you and then we flip flop armies. That way we ALL get a turn with them.

Dude won't abide? Don't play him.

You want to play a certain way and he doesn't/ won't? Don't play him.

You've already spoken to him and he's not listening or doesn't care? Don't play him.

Dude's generally a jerk? Don't play him.

But always be polite about it.

wh40k is rock-paper-scissors and he keeps bringing all rock.
You have the right to not play with him. You're playing for fun and he isn't fun to play with.

Alternatively, bring all paper (which requires money), and expect to get whined hypocritically for tailoring your list. Riptides are an anti-elite, non-invul save unit...

Guard: Spam sniper rifles on Guardsman command squads and special weapons squads. Drown him in a blob of spread out conscripts.

Marines: drop podding large tactical squad with grav, combi-grav, and librarian. Or this grav star people are talking about but which I haven't seen. I don't favor that one because centurions rely on 2+ saves and Riptides are geared to handle that.

Orcs: 6 gretchin squads cost about 240, right? Add big gunz? Ork players, give me a hand.

Just want to point this out the new Riptide the Y'Vahra is not as strong as the regular one due to its such short range and to be honest if anyone told me I couldn't use it then I would not play them. I play in a pretty competitive environment and the usual thing I've noticed with it is that I usually get one or two shooting turns with it before it is killed, its not OP in the slightest and neither is the regular Riptide. if he is fielding one of them at 500 points that is almost 50% of his army in one model, focus on the rest of his army and chances are you will win most of the time.

That being said I definitely don't agree with him changing his list to tailor it to his opponents that should be called out on and corrected. However in regards to him wanted to field riptides guess what people have a right to play with the models they want to. Personally I love the Riptide model and variance because I grew up watching Gundam Anime and mech suits have always fascinated me. as mentioned your best bet would be to talk to him, everyone else in your group step their game up and take stronger lists or let him know that if he doesn't change it up then you may want to inform him that he may have trouble getting games in the future.

In a group where people want to play the models they want to play and don't own models that are an answer to every optimized force, you can't have one person who will pick lists just to win.

Either they have to adjust their list to the group dynamic, or find a better match for their play priorities.

Also, in response to a couple of the posts, someone who just plays max Riptides every game is neither a good 40k player or a good wargamer. Against someone who IS a good 40k player who has a full and varied set of tools at their disposal, anyone who doesn't know how to do anything other than spam superheavies will pretty much lose every game.

One must be willing to give a little in list design for the goodwill factor. There si a social contract. At tournaments, bets are off. But even there, some unscupulous sorts will tank sportsmanship if you bring something they didnt like. Sad but true.

Watching Tau players say Riptides aren't overpowered because they lose them in 1-2 turns is like watching grandma declare global warming is a hoax because there was more rain than usual this month

Oddly enough in both cases its always both exaggerated and in the face of substantial evidence to the contrary as well, which is why they don't give well founded or in detail reasoning to their claims

Playing a boring cheesy list is the lesser problem... but it seems he is an ashole... just stop playing him. Never indulge people with bad sportsmanship.

Just either:
A. Stop playing with him
B. Ask him to stop spamming Riptides
C. Play Tau and spam Riptides

Seriously, I'm surprised anyone actually plays with him. He sounds like a try hard. If you want to try to beat him, try using Lascannon devastators or Grav Cannon Centurion Devastators.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

Watching Tau players say Riptides aren't overpowered because they lose them in 1-2 turns is like watching grandma declare global warming is a hoax because there was more rain than usual this month

Oddly enough in both cases its always both exaggerated and in the face of substantial evidence to the contrary as well, which is why they don't give well founded or in detail reasoning to their claims

The same can be said for people who complain they are completely overpowered, especially when there are plenty weapons, units and abilities that counter them very well. If you don't prepare for them properly then its your fault, not the tau player.

So there is a lot of drifting off tactics in this thread, but since you posted it in the tactics forum, I'm going to give you my take on all of this.

I play all Xenos. I've played Tau and Necrons in tournaments and leagues.

Firstly, the advice that I think you have been given which is very bad:

Take AV13/14 ad wait it out. Landraiders are overcosted. His Y'Vahra will eat them for breakfast.

Just play for tactical objectives and ignore the riptides. Riptides are super mobile monstrous creatures. They will come to the objectives and kill units that are ill equipped to deal with them and SCORE because this is 7th edition 40k.

Spam lascannons. Lascannons in bulk enough to kill a riptide becomes expensive and usually sits on a platform that a riptide can kill with ease. They are useful as a support in dealing with Riptides, but their main job is anti tank. By the way, someone said that riptides don't have invulnerable saves. They have a 5++ which can be boosted to 3++ with Nova Charge.

Take fliers. He is runnning a Farsight enclave list probably with Firebase Support Cadre Broadsides too. So he has Earthcaste Pilot Array Riptide with Heavy Burst Cannon. Quite possibly Velocity Tracker and Interceptor (Early Warning Override). He will kill any flier before it shoots. Especially if he is list tailoring and you are bringing a flier.

Good advice you have been given:

GRAVITRON WEAPONARY! Grav guns are amazing against Riptides (and Broadsides for that matter). They rip through them like butter. If you want to buy your way to victory, buy two grav sqauads of bikers and ally them in. Kill a riptide a turn with each.

Leadership based psychic powers, especially stacked up. Terrify, then psychic shriek, for instance. Nasty.

Any initiative based attack. Back in the days of Jaws of The World Wolf Riptides fell en masse.

Combat units with rending or ap1/2 weaponary. Riptides are TERRIBLE at fighting compared to most optimised combat units. Yes, they have AP2 close combat attacks, but they have terrible initiative and bad WS. And that low initiative makes them very easy to SWEEP. Things that will chew through riptides in combat: Canoptek Wraiths, bikey guys with hammers and shields, Thunderwolf Cavalry (these guys with the correct HQ in the unit will eat all the riptides shooting and then munch the entire army one by one, they also have a relic that causes fear in monstrous creatures for added LOLs), Dreadknights, Wriathknights, Imperial Knights (of any variety), Daemon Princes, Screamers, Beastpacks, Death Company, Seercouncil, Mind Shackle Scarabs on either a Destroyer Lord or a CCB Overlord.

Rending weapons. Especially high strength (Sicaran for instance). Poison/Sniper Weaponry when taken in enough bulk to force saves through weight of fire.

The most important weapon that you can bring to any game though is knowledge of your opponent. It sounds like you have played him quite a lot without being clear about what is in his list or what the units in his army do. Don't play ANYONE without knowing at least what the units in the army are and do and what upgrades everything has taken and what special rules those upgrades grant, but the BEST thing you can possibly do is read the codex and understand everything.

Running three riptides and three Y'Vharas costs a minimum of 1,245pts without any HQ or Troop choices. Y'Vharas are 230 points each. I love my Tau army and Jump Shoot Jump games are fun. But that thing is overcosted and relies on being very close to your enemy. The rules are on forgeworld. Go and have a look. Make sure he is playing by them. The Feel No Pain upgrade (Stim Injector) costs 35 points. Putting it on 3 riptides costs over a hundred points.

Make sure you see his list. Understand his list.

Novareactors in a 6 riptide army should be causing two unsaveable wounds every turn. Is he remembering to apply these wounds? He can reroll on the one with the Earthcaste Pilot Array (as long as he has paid the 30pts for the upgrade and the 3 crisis suit tax for the Farsight Enclave army) but the others don't get any save at all.

40k is, despite what some people say, a very complicated ruleset. Not least of all because it is constantly evolving. Like EVERY WEEK at the moment. You have to play with people that you trust to be straight about there own rules. But you also need to give yourself the best chance by reading as many of the rules as possible and seeing ways to counter other armies.

Good luck and happy hunting.

In my opinion, in a good casual and friendly game, it is the opponents job to inform about his army. Discuss tactics openly and give each other hints. If not before the action, after. "You could have done this" and by iterations you improve. This is a better way to develop skills and it makes for a much nicer friendly gaming environment. I know a lot of people will think this is dumb, but since I don't play ANY game to win, only for good company and a few laughs this is the only way to go for me. We have a few cheesers at our club but no one plays them, thus they got tired of 40k. Problem solved.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

Watching Tau players say Riptides aren't overpowered because they lose them in 1-2 turns is like watching grandma declare global warming is a hoax because there was more rain than usual this month

Oddly enough in both cases its always both exaggerated and in the face of substantial evidence to the contrary as well, which is why they don't give well founded or in detail reasoning to their claims

The same can be said for people who complain they are completely overpowered, especially when there are plenty weapons, units and abilities that counter them very well. If you don't prepare for them properly then its your fault[, not the tau player.

Another vague handwave dismissal response unsubstantiated by evidence or analysis, oh boy

-I'm not claiming they're "completely" overpowered. They're just that much overpowered that it is an issue.

-"Plenty of weapons bla bla bla" is the biggest load of toot I've read all day. Weapons that can effectively and realistically kill Riptides, that are actually worth taking anyway or otherwise, are mindnumbingly limited. "Plenty" would be the word to use for weapons that deal with vehicles. I'm not saying Riptide spam is unbeatable, but when your list has to be ridiculously constrained to the same format or two every single time to stand a chance against a Riptide spam list, and when the actual points value of the model is ridiculously undercosted, the Riptide is overpowered.

-"Prepare properly" is a terrible "L2P" spitball retort , and for the love of christ people should stop using without clear and direct evidence (like a list) warranting it.

I'll sit and wait for your evidence to support your claims.

There is a list of stuff above, Mr Omega. Its tricky because the assumption is that a take all comers list will have things that can deal with Monstrous Creatures the same as fliers, hordes, high AV and all of the other scissors, paper, stone options. One way of being hard to beat at 40k is to take a list that contains so many of these one elements that it becomes overwhelming for a TAC list to deal with.

Riptide spam
Wave Serpent spam
Flier Spam
Flying monstrous creature spam

Yet none of these are tournament winning lists at the moment. A good Imperial Army utilising the allies table effectively will be able to deal with any of these options. A straightforward, no-combo HQ, 3 troops, 2 heavy support dull list will not.

The reason that Tau players are saying that Riptides aren't overpowered is because no one has been winning at tournaments with Riptide spam for the last year. Certainly not in seventh.

Grav centurions, grav bikers and melta drop pod lists are very, very powerful against this army (even with all the EWO) and Imperial Psychers can wreck it too.

And imperial psychers are EVEN MORE POWERFUL away from tournaments. Because they have great access to Invisibility, which negates almost all of the worrying aspects of any Tau army, as well as psychic shriek, which will deplete Riptides all day long.

There are now plenty of specific ways offered up in this thread for dealing with Riptides.

1) Borrow around 55 guardsmen
2) blob them to 50 man squad, add a commissar and a priest
3)use the order "go go go" and charge him
4) .....
5)PROFIT

Everyone keeps saying take grav weapons, is there an errata somewhere that adds grav weapons to my codex? I'm Dark Angels, so no grav weapons or centurions.

I really don't see Riptides as being terribly overpowered (the Yvarha maybe, because it has far too many special rules and unlike a standard riptide cover is useless), but my standard army is not designed to take them on.

I might look at getting some drop pods, but again I don't feel like being the one that tailors specifically to deal with riptides and not be prepared to take on any other army.

Overall all the advice so far has been helpful though, thanks everyone. I tried some of it (mostly with how I used the terrain and went purely for the tactical objectives), and ended up winning 7-2, even though I had only killed a handful of fire warriors. I didn't even have to change my list around too much, I just quit caring about fighting (which sadly did make the game less fun). He actually told me after I won that he won't play me anymore if I'm going to be a tryhard, so overall it's a win-win situation. You should have seen the grin on my face.

You gotta' be joking. He said that? Whuuuut the F...

That is a hilariously stupid thing to say. Now theresa new category of player called Tryhard? Ha! Boy am I in trouble.

For the ork player, he needs to invest in some speed by the sounds of it. trukk rush, with stormboys and bikers, all with a powerklaw in there, will kill a riptide. so he'll squish a few boys, but then the boys will chip off a wound or two, then the powerklaw swings. chances are he'll lose combat, and the nobs I3 might even get you an overrun.

 kingbobbito wrote:
Everyone keeps saying take grav weapons, is there an errata somewhere that adds grav weapons to my codex? I'm Dark Angels, so no grav weapons or centurions.

I really don't see Riptides as being terribly overpowered (the Yvarha maybe, because it has far too many special rules and unlike a standard riptide cover is useless), but my standard army is not designed to take them on.

I might look at getting some drop pods, but again I don't feel like being the one that tailors specifically to deal with riptides and not be prepared to take on any other army.

Overall all the advice so far has been helpful though, thanks everyone. I tried some of it (mostly with how I used the terrain and went purely for the tactical objectives), and ended up winning 7-2, even though I had only killed a handful of fire warriors. I didn't even have to change my list around too much, I just quit caring about fighting (which sadly did make the game less fun). He actually told me after I won that he won't play me anymore if I'm going to be a tryhard, so overall it's a win-win situation. You should have seen the grin on my face.

You have twinlinked Plasma Talons? Use those instead of Grav.

Kholzerino wrote:
There is a list of stuff above, Mr Omega. Its tricky because the assumption is that a take all comers list will have things that can deal with Monstrous Creatures the same as fliers, hordes, high AV and all of the other scissors, paper, stone options. One way of being hard to beat at 40k is to take a list that contains so many of these one elements that it becomes overwhelming for a TAC list to deal with.

Riptide spam
Wave Serpent spam
Flier Spam
Flying monstrous creature spam

Yet none of these are tournament winning lists at the moment. A good Imperial Army utilising the allies table effectively will be able to deal with any of these options. A straightforward, no-combo HQ, 3 troops, 2 heavy support dull list will not.

The reason that Tau players are saying that Riptides aren't overpowered is because no one has been winning at tournaments with Riptide spam for the last year. Certainly not in seventh.

Grav centurions, grav bikers and melta drop pod lists are very, very powerful against this army (even with all the EWO) and Imperial Psychers can wreck it too.

And imperial psychers are EVEN MORE POWERFUL away from tournaments. Because they have great access to Invisibility, which negates almost all of the worrying aspects of any Tau army, as well as psychic shriek, which will deplete Riptides all day long.

There are now plenty of specific ways offered up in this thread for dealing with Riptides.

I wasn't exactly claiming that Riptide spam as a list archetype was overpowered at the highest level, though it perhaps is at lower levels, even those firmly in the zone of semi-competitive/competitive environments if played by someone who knows what they are doing, facing someone without the hindsight or luck to take the critical bit extra anti-riptide.

My favourite Tau poster will now sneer down his nose and attempt to discount all I've said as he has before just because I made that point of considering the lower levels of play. Shame.

Secondly, one overpowered unit does not an unbeatable/broken army make, as I briefly touched on in my post you quoted, which is why, in combination with even more broken units appearing (Screamerstars, Wave Serpents, Seerstars and the like all levelled the playing field by being more broken), people aren't taking Riptide spam lists home with trophies anymore. Part of it is also historical given that the number of anti-riptide options has increased a bit since the dominance of Riptide spam even at top-level play.

The Riptide is undercosted; with the IA and EWO, I honestly think it should cost at minimum 220-230 points, given the combination of ridiculous durability, long range AP2 large blasts with massive LOS, Nova reactor, jetpack assault moves, the ability to smash any tank in melee, getting the secondary weapon just to rub things in, etc. If you can do math, that's about 30-40 points undercosted, which in the typical Riptide spam list is about a 90-160 point advantage.

Yes, there's Grav Centurions and Grav Bikers, but what If I don't want to invest in those ugly fat ceramite teddy bears, or don't want to have to invest in an unappealing, boring, overused unit of Grav Bikers? You've given very little choice, and very little, if anything at all other than the difficult to use Libby comes close to the killing power of those units. It makes the game flat and dull. The existence of one unit in one army fundamentally changes the format of every single list. The reason I've mainly played IG since Codex Riptides is because I felt they were better equipped to deal with them with Vendettas, Plasma Vets and Executioners. Even today, my standard list almost always has Executioners and Vendettas, and if I'm feeling really daring, I won't take melta/plasma vets.

Imperial Psykers are massively overrated. Massively. IG Psykers don't even get all that Telepathy jazz without taking a level 1 Astropath in maybe one CCS (the other HQ is always Pask, because how else will I have enough to deal with Riptide spam?) and that's ridiculously awkward and restrictive when it boils down to it, and ultimately not a good plan. Inquisitors can take Telepathy, but they're still only Lvl1, at the highest level they cut off any other allies in some tournaments, and the prospect itself is ultimately underwhelming.

Even if you try going that route, what happens when you come up against a list that out-psykers you and renders your investment in that phase basically meaningless, or far less effective and reliable? I've tried the divination drone a couple times and used the Astropath as an extra warp charge, which is alright but not quite carling.

General Orange wrote:1) Borrow around 55 guardsmen
2) blob them to 50 man squad, add a commissar and a priest
3)use the order "go go go" and charge him
4) .....
5)PROFIT

Don't forget to turn them invisible.

kingbobbito wrote: He actually told me after I won that he won't play me anymore if I'm going to be a tryhard, so overall it's a win-win situation. You should have seen the grin on my face.

I'll say it.

Dudes a certified idiot.

It kinda sounds like the issue worked itself out. But if not

tell everyone to bring an army at the agreed upon point value and when you get together draw what army you use out of a hat.

Or you could try writing up a scenario and limit the units allowed that way or do a table setup in tunnels (underhive) which would make the Riptide far more manageable as he wouldn't be able to have the huge Lines of sight or the mobility.

Personally I enjoy the scenarios. It adds a lot to the game in my opinion and takes the monotony out of move shoot assault... the story becomes more important.

Could also say bring 2000pts and when you start tell them to put together 1000pts (no need to follow FOC) for that game and then next game they have to use what's left.

 kingbobbito wrote:

Overall all the advice so far has been helpful though, thanks everyone. I tried some of it (mostly with how I used the terrain and went purely for the tactical objectives), and ended up winning 7-2, even though I had only killed a handful of fire warriors. I didn't even have to change my list around too much, I just quit caring about fighting (which sadly did make the game less fun). He actually told me after I won that he won't play me anymore if I'm going to be a tryhard, so overall it's a win-win situation. You should have seen the grin on my face.

Dou darn objective-grabbin' tryhards stop spoiling my triptide-hammer!1

That's the point of an objective game. You stop playing on the opponent's terms. His game is: "Come at my unkillable force and die to overwhelming firepower!" and when you didn't come, he had to adapt to it and go a bit tactical himself. Obviously, he couldn't. And did what every self-respecting TFG without a tiny bit of tactical approach would have done. Accused you of being TFG without a tiny bit of tactical approach.

Indeed. Winning does not necessarily involve killing the enemy, and nothing requires you to march slowly into the guns. You can put a decent showing against armies that you literally cannot hurt with most of your army, with a bit of thought - guard/tyranids with many small units against knights in objective games, for example.

You did well, especially because you went down the "I can win by playing better" rather than "omg I must tailor my list".

Many, many kudos.

Excellente!

Confirms what I've thought, not a person you want to be playing.

Again congratulations on the win. I can only imagine how salty he must have been

Who's a tryhard? What's a tryhard?

Kholzerino wrote:

Yet none of these are tournament winning lists at the moment. A good Imperial Army utilising the allies table effectively will be able to deal with any of these options. A straightforward, no-combo HQ, 3 troops, 2 heavy support dull list will not.

The reason that Tau players are saying that Riptides aren't overpowered is because no one has been winning at tournaments with Riptide spam for the last year. Certainly not in seventh.

Grav centurions, grav bikers and melta drop pod lists are very, very powerful against this army (even with all the EWO) and Imperial Psychers can wreck it too.

And imperial psychers are EVEN MORE POWERFUL away from tournaments. Because they have great access to Invisibility, which negates almost all of the worrying aspects of any Tau army, as well as psychic shriek, which will deplete Riptides all day long.

There are now plenty of specific ways offered up in this thread for dealing with Riptides.

See, this is the problem. When you have to specificially list-tailor to deal with a very common unit, it is overpowered. I've seen this attitude before from tournament gamers: "Take X and Y and Z and you're fine, stop whining". But most casual players don't have X and Y and they may have only limited access to Z. I for example play Deathwing, I don't have grav guns or Centurions, I can take max. 1 Psycher which is much easier to kill for Tau player than Riptide is for me. Pretty much only thing which I could do is a melta Veteran Drop pod strike, but even that is very uncertain, and at any rate, I don't have Drop pods atm because they're b*tch to build and paint.

Riptide and units like it (like say, 5th edition Nob Bikers) are overpowered because they are so durable against most common weapons people take to their armies. Say you build your army and figure "hmm, I need some stuff to deal with tanks and monstrous creatures, lets put bunch of Missile Launchers and few Meltas/Lascannons, that'll do". And it will do against nearly every other unit on the game, but not against Riptide because it is so stupid durable. It's extremely frustrating to play against units which are immune to nearly everything your army has. Extremely durable units are unbalacing on casual, limited environment because they force you to list-tailor and to take specific set of units to counter them. It's just not FUN.

And this is why Riptide is terribly designed unit.

I can kinda relate to you. I quite often face triple Dreadknights and they are so hard to take out. T6, 2+, 4++, S10 CC, heavy psycannons and heavy incinerators, 12" movement and a once-per-game ridiculous thrust move.

There's just no way for me to beat them, I cannot shoot it to death, I cannot move away from it, I cannot beat him in CC and I cannot use psychic powers to beat him.

I feel your pain, brother!

MrOmega before you try and slander my opinion by accusing me of "sneering down my nose" at Riptide haters maybe you should know your facts about me before you spout off that nonsense. I personally like the Riptide because of how the model looks and I love the ability to have some mobile heavy firepower. Also i have never been a WAAC style of player, I tend to bring more themed and fluffy list than anything else and though they are strong builds, they are by no means OP, even then I have options to change them out and make it a more casual list.

Now that being said I never said that the Riptide wasn't strong, but it gets very annoying and tiresome when people constantly say its OP instead of finding proper ways to deal with it and blame their losses because of this so-called overpowered unit. Also it should be noted that this is in regards to any unit that people constantly complain about, not just for the Riptides. Is it under costed? No it is not. Is the ion accelerator under costed? Yes that weapon is not the platform itself especially when compared to other MCs.

You then proceeded to throw the "you only give vague responses" comment. Funny, in a thread that's dedicated to dealing with multiple riptides you would have thought that I wouldn't have had to explain myself since it is already been covered a couple times. Very well, to satisfy your ego here are a few reasons:

-The most common or competitive builds if you will of Riptide points in around 210-240pts. which puts it up around the cost of a Wraithknight which is still a pretty expensive investment.

-The newest variant of Riptide the Y'Vahra not only clocks in at 265pts. with a Stim Injector which is an auto include as its max range is 14 inches, meaning that it'll probably kill one unit before getting unloaded upon and dying. also it has one less wound making it that much easier to kill.

-The R'Varna is probably the nastier of the three variants but thankfully Forgeworld nerfed it for its final cut to make it a bit more reasonable. This variant clocks in at 290pts. with the sole purpose of sitting back and unloading pie plates. As I will mention in the tactics below, you should handle this one as a standard ion accelerator Riptide in regards to how you play against it and you should be ok.

-The biggest reason that people seem to forget is the fact that it hurts itself 1/3 of the time it tries to use its Nova Charge. However as mentioned the Ion Accelerator negates this with its second firing mode hence why I stated the Accelerator is under costed not the platform itself.

Just a few reasons though they will have just been rehashed yet again. I do apologize for derailing the thread a little bit however I do not like people making comments about me that are inaccurate and vague. To put the thread back on track here are a couple tricks I've learned that work very well against my Tau and Farsight Enclave army:

-Imperial Armies ability to ally is probably the strongest thing in the game. No other races have as much variety of units, styles of play or abilities to choose from.look into the other Imperial books to see what you can add into your army to help level the playing field.

-Any type of Psychic Power will wreck Tau armies, especially such powers like Psychic Shriek against the Farsight Enclaves will do a lot of damage. We only have one psychic defense item out of both of our books, taking a Libby could help in a lot of ways.

-If he is running lots of suits you can never go wrong with blast templates or just weight of fire. People seem to forget that 3 Crisis Suits is equivalent to 6 Space Marines in regards to wounds. Also massed bolter fire you can't go wrong with massed bolter fire you can't go wrong with either.

-Drop Pod armies as well as Space Marine bike lists (basically anything that can get into our face very quickly) is a very good counter. Now in this instance you really need to take into account your allying ability, a friend of mind uses Space Wolves and Space Marines in a deadly combo of Grav-Centurians in drop pods to get them close enough to unload on my riptides and to keep them off the table if I get the first turn so they can't be shot at.and as everyone has said it, GRAV-WEAPONRY you cannot go wrong with. If you are playing Dark Angels don't hesitate to bring in some allies, or just take Black Knights. Twin-linked plasma can do just as much damage as Grav-Weapons.

Hopefully these suggestions will help, if you want to know more specifically about combating the Farsight Enclaves id be more than happy to assist. I don't play my Tau any other way

But all that is the problem! A unit should not require very specific list-tailoring and allying to be able to kill it. Nobody ever suggest taking very specific units like Black Knights, or allying to get Centurions, if somebody has problems killing Terminators or Land Raiders. Any army has plenty of enough tools to kill those units despite their 'durability'.

Riptide shouldn't be more expensive, what it should be is T7 3+ 4 wounds. That would make it more vulnerable to common battlefield weapons whilst still maintaining reasonable durability. Or alternatively, it should be an AV12 walker.

For the umpteenth time, as a Tau player, the Riptide is broken. It is easily undercosted due to its durability.

But well done on the win OP, now do yourself a favour and never play the guy again. He sounds like a right (insert your favourite noun here).

 gmaleron wrote:
MrOmega before you try and slander my opinion by accusing me of "sneering down my nose" at Riptide haters maybe you should know your facts about me before you spout off that nonsense. I personally like the Riptide because of how the model looks and I love the ability to have some mobile heavy firepower. Also i have never been a WAAC style of player, I tend to bring more themed and fluffy list than anything else and though they are strong builds, they are by no means OP, even then I have options to change them out and make it a more casual list.

Now that being said I never said that the Riptide wasn't strong, but it gets very annoying and tiresome when people constantly say its OP instead of finding proper ways to deal with it and blame their losses because of this so-called overpowered unit. Also it should be noted that this is in regards to any unit that people constantly complain about, not just for the Riptides. Is it under costed? No it is not. Is the ion accelerator under costed? Yes that weapon is not the platform itself especially when compared to other MCs.

You then proceeded to throw the "you only give vague responses" comment. Funny, in a thread that's dedicated to dealing with multiple riptides you would have thought that I wouldn't have had to explain myself since it is already been covered a couple times. Very well, to satisfy your ego here are a few reasons:

-The most common or competitive builds if you will of Riptide points in around 210-240pts. which puts it up around the cost of a Wraithknight which is still a pretty expensive investment.

My MCs cost 330-350.

-The newest variant of Riptide the Y'Vahra not only clocks in at 265pts. with a Stim Injector which is an auto include as its max range is 14 inches, meaning that it'll probably kill one unit before getting unloaded upon and dying. also it has one less wound making it that much easier to kill.

Forge World gives you cool stuff and you're gonna cite that as. . .I'm not even sure what this is supposed to prove. Again Daemon FMCs are ~330-350 to make workable. Not only are they more expensive but you have to bank on multiple random tables to hope to survive a game AND nearly all builds need to get in combat to earn their puddin'. Don't cry about your flying Riptide.

 Byte wrote:

General Orange wrote:1) Borrow around 55 guardsmen
2) blob them to 50 man squad, add a commissar and a priest
3)use the order "go go go" and charge him
4) .....
5)PROFIT

Don't forget to turn them invisible.

kingbobbito wrote: He actually told me after I won that he won't play me anymore if I'm going to be a tryhard, so overall it's a win-win situation. You should have seen the grin on my face.

I'll say it.

Dudes a certified idiot.

I would like to also add that i say this as well, above. dumb.

You should point him to this thread. For realsies. ZHes already not gonna play with a "Tryhard" like you.

I started laughing again right as i typed that. MAN thats funny.

Did you seriously just say the Riptide is costed apropriatley? Have a flick through the Tyranid and Daemon codices and compare some statlines and prices.

To be fair i think the riptide it self IS relatively costed properly

its the AP2 death gun that is undercosted as feth.

Only 5 points for a large blast AP2 weapon.


edit: OH and interceptor is also undercosted as feth.

Riptide is probably reasonably costed regarding it's damage output, it's the ridiculous durability which should be addressed with. Basically, monstrous creatures should not have 2+ save. It is just potentially too unbalancing, not to mention illogical (why is a monstrous creature more durable against missiles than a tank?). 5 wounds is also bit much.

the Riptide is powerful and not cheap. those two things are fine with me.

The PROBLEM is that enemies want to fight at range and nothing but range. They wont do well if thats all they're capable of. Clearly melee fell out of vogue in 6th Edition and LOTS of people have never gone back to that well and that IS a big part of the problem. the Riptide on its own isnt enough to get up in arms about.

Its ANY LIST that tries to overwhelm and spam you with good units. Having good units isn't what the original poster is against. He's against the gross iniquity and list tailoring this guy is doing.... and his subsequent attitude of My gak dont stank" hypocricy.

ANY player who shows up with 6 Exorcists better tell me we are playing an apocalypse game. Im just saying. Might be legal as hell, but fun factor? meh.

And if a person is STILL playing this game without the goal of having fun and trying new things, its no wonder they turn into this kind of a monster.

My greatest joy (as my blog will attest, see link below) is winning with lists that dont su8ccumb to this silliness level. the tool box (oops, I mean codex) can be used to build a LOT of different things. So do it.

When playing this game it should be like playing with Legos. Sure you might try something uber a couple times. Its cool. But ultimately you have to say "okay okay, I had my fun with that craziness, lets move on".

 gmaleron wrote:
MrOmega before you try and slander my opinion by accusing me of "sneering down my nose" at Riptide haters maybe you should know your facts about me before you spout off that nonsense. I personally like the Riptide because of how the model looks and I love the ability to have some mobile heavy firepower. Also i have never been a WAAC style of player, I tend to bring more themed and fluffy list than anything else and though they are strong builds, they are by no means OP, even then I have options to change them out and make it a more casual list.

Now that being said I never said that the Riptide wasn't strong, but it gets very annoying and tiresome when people constantly say its OP instead of finding proper ways to deal with it and blame their losses because of this so-called overpowered unit. Also it should be noted that this is in regards to any unit that people constantly complain about, not just for the Riptides. Is it under costed? No it is not. Is the ion accelerator under costed? Yes that weapon is not the platform itself especially when compared to other MCs.

You then proceeded to throw the "you only give vague responses" comment. Funny, in a thread that's dedicated to dealing with multiple riptides you would have thought that I wouldn't have had to explain myself since it is already been covered a couple times. Very well, to satisfy your ego here are a few reasons:

-The most common or competitive builds if you will of Riptide points in around 210-240pts. which puts it up around the cost of a Wraithknight which is still a pretty expensive investment.

-The newest variant of Riptide the Y'Vahra not only clocks in at 265pts. with a Stim Injector which is an auto include as its max range is 14 inches, meaning that it'll probably kill one unit before getting unloaded upon and dying. also it has one less wound making it that much easier to kill.

-The R'Varna is probably the nastier of the three variants but thankfully Forgeworld nerfed it for its final cut to make it a bit more reasonable. This variant clocks in at 290pts. with the sole purpose of sitting back and unloading pie plates. As I will mention in the tactics below, you should handle this one as a standard ion accelerator Riptide in regards to how you play against it and you should be ok.

-The biggest reason that people seem to forget is the fact that it hurts itself 1/3 of the time it tries to use its Nova Charge. However as mentioned the Ion Accelerator negates this with its second firing mode hence why I stated the Accelerator is under costed not the platform itself.

Just a few reasons though they will have just been rehashed yet again. I do apologize for derailing the thread a little bit however I do not like people making comments about me that are inaccurate and vague. To put the thread back on track here are a couple tricks I've learned that work very well against my Tau and Farsight Enclave army:

-Imperial Armies ability to ally is probably the strongest thing in the game. No other races have as much variety of units, styles of play or abilities to choose from.look into the other Imperial books to see what you can add into your army to help level the playing field.

-Any type of Psychic Power will wreck Tau armies, especially such powers like Psychic Shriek against the Farsight Enclaves will do a lot of damage. We only have one psychic defense item out of both of our books, taking a Libby could help in a lot of ways.

-If he is running lots of suits you can never go wrong with blast templates or just weight of fire. People seem to forget that 3 Crisis Suits is equivalent to 6 Space Marines in regards to wounds. Also massed bolter fire you can't go wrong with massed bolter fire you can't go wrong with either.

-Drop Pod armies as well as Space Marine bike lists (basically anything that can get into our face very quickly) is a very good counter. Now in this instance you really need to take into account your allying ability, a friend of mind uses Space Wolves and Space Marines in a deadly combo of Grav-Centurians in drop pods to get them close enough to unload on my riptides and to keep them off the table if I get the first turn so they can't be shot at.and as everyone has said it, GRAV-WEAPONRY you cannot go wrong with. If you are playing Dark Angels don't hesitate to bring in some allies, or just take Black Knights. Twin-linked plasma can do just as much damage as Grav-Weapons.

Hopefully these suggestions will help, if you want to know more specifically about combating the Farsight Enclaves id be more than happy to assist. I don't play my Tau any other way

MrOmega before you try and slander my opinion by accusing me of "sneering down my nose" at Riptide haters maybe you should know your facts about me before you spout off that nonsense.

Also i have never been a WAAC style of player, I tend to bring more themed and fluffy list than anything else

In a different thread, on a very similar topic, very recently;

[

 gmaleron wrote:

sorry I generally play in a competitive environment where people like to bring their A game and play against each other but of course that means I don't know what I'm talking about. people like you make me laugh

I didn't include the part where you went on to call me elitist, but do you not see what massive hypocrite you've just proven yourself to be? WAAC =/= competitive, but the implications are completely opposite in these two posts, in the latter you were basically implying to me my opinion is worth gak because I was talking about lower level play as well, as I outlined the imbalance of Riptides at lower levels and without massive preparation. What you were directly saying is that I was acting as though you were wrong because you play at a competitive level, which was a load of rubbish. Are you surprised I saw that as sneering?

I may as well have taught you the word slander given the irony of what I've just had to point out, and the fact that you dropped to ridiculous lows slandering me in that same thread because you couldn't respond with an argument.

Funny, in a thread that's dedicated to dealing with multiple riptides you would have thought that I wouldn't have had to explain myself since it is already been covered a couple times.

You're speaking but not saying anything. The thread is about some concerns with Riptides, you said something I thought was false, so I challenged you on it. You didn't deliver until this post. And you did so poorly.

people constantly say its OP instead of finding proper ways to deal with it and blame their losses because of this so-called overpowered unit.

Again with the implying people are stupid and incapable of doing things, as well as sore and looking for a scapegoat. Its an insulting, fallacious way of making an argument where you have no data or evidence to prove it.

Is it under costed? No it is not. Is the ion accelerator under costed? Yes that weapon is not the platform itself especially when compared to other MCs.

Not that the first point makes sense even given the second point, but okay, well given you've literally just retorted with "no its not" on the Riptide cost itself, I expect you'll have plenty of good reasons to show why now.

Besides, if you are going to admit the IA is undercosted, that logically implies the Riptide is overpowered, even if its just the IA variant.

-The most common or competitive builds if you will of Riptide points in around 210-240pts. which puts it up around the cost of a Wraithknight which is still a pretty expensive investment.

People spend more points on it and make it much better for the price it should start at anyway, and that makes it a-okay? Eh? Nevermind the fact that the Stim Injector build breaks the durability issue even further.

The base cost of the Riptide with IA, and no other upgrades should be 220-230 at least.

-The newest variant of Riptide the Y'Vahra not only clocks in at 265pts. with a Stim Injector which is an auto include as its max range is 14 inches, meaning that it'll probably kill one unit before getting unloaded upon and dying. also it has one less wound making it that much easier to kill.

- High points =/= Instantly bad

- One unit kill before death is a massive exaggeration, not a valid point, and a fallacy. If you're going to use point's that question the intelligence and inherent judgement of people who think they're overpowered, can I question your incredible inability to make it last more than a turn?

- This is basically irrelevant for the most part anyway considering I never claimed the Y'Vahra was overpowered

-The R'Varna is probably the nastier of the three variants but thankfully Forgeworld nerfed it for its final cut to make it a bit more reasonable. This variant clocks in at 290pts. with the sole purpose of sitting back and unloading pie plates. As I will mention in the tactics below, you should handle this one as a standard ion accelerator Riptide in regards to how you play against it and you should be ok.

You've spoken but not said anything. Again, basically irrelevant to my post.

-The biggest reason that people seem to forget is the fact that it hurts itself 1/3 of the time it tries to use its Nova Charge. However as mentioned the Ion Accelerator negates this with its second firing mode hence why I stated the Accelerator is under costed not the platform itself.

- The Riptide doesn't even need the Nova Charge to be as overpowered as it is; if an opponent thinks it would be detrimental to use, they won't use Nova Charge. I hear most Tau players don't even use it most of the time, but it is that much extra power.

I do not like people making comments about me that are inaccurate and vague.

.....

-Imperial Armies ability to ally is probably the strongest thing in the game. No other races have as much variety of units, styles of play or abilities to choose from.look into the other Imperial books to see what you can add into your army to help level the playing field.

This has limited applications to the people I'm talking in large part about who don't want to just take stuff that gives plain advantages or hard counters like taking ceramite teddy bears out of the Marine Codex to fit in their IG. Its probably about the best point you've made in this entire post still.

Even for high end players, a lot of tournaments restrict ally potential to one book.

-Any type of Psychic Power will wreck Tau armies, especially such powers like Psychic Shriek against the Farsight Enclaves will do a lot of damage. We only have one psychic defense item out of both of our books, taking a Libby could help in a lot of ways.

- First clause is exaggerated, objectively false in at least some part and not a good way to start here...

-Psychic Shriek is nice, but has 18'' range, and you'll have very limited numbers of Psykers with it who can be taken apart if the Tau player perceives them as a threat. A Libby is not exactly the most reliable counter to Riptides, but one of the better ones.

-If he is running lots of suits you can never go wrong with blast templates or just weight of fire. People seem to forget that 3 Crisis Suits is equivalent to 6 Space Marines in regards to wounds. Also massed bolter fire you can't go wrong with massed bolter fire you can't go wrong with either.

Crisis Suits are irrelevant.

The last sentence was amusing, in part because of how it reads and in part because massed bolter fire is generally an all-round terrible idea as a list strategy, and even if speaking as though you meant it to be circumstantial and relative to army list size in the moment, t probably means little anyway.

-Drop Pod armies as well as Space Marine bike lists (basically anything that can get into our face very quickly) is a very good counter. Now in this instance you really need to take into account your allying ability, a friend of mind uses Space Wolves and Space Marines in a deadly combo of Grav-Centurians in drop pods to get them close enough to unload on my riptides and to keep them off the table if I get the first turn so they can't be shot at.and as everyone has said it, GRAV-WEAPONRY you cannot go wrong with. If you are playing Dark Angels don't hesitate to bring in some allies, or just take Black Knights. Twin-linked plasma can do just as much damage as Grav-Weapons.

- Your first point is using the broken, unfluffy, abusive, inconvenient method of Grav Centurion drop pods.... Yeah. Not relevant to the people I'm talking about for the most part, both because ceramite teddy bears and because of all the aforementioned reasons. At the highest level? Sure. It'll work. But I already pointed out that Riptide lists aren't broken at the highest level. Riptides themselves, particularly with IA, are undercosted and thus overpowered.

-Dark Angels are a terrible Codex, and Tau will piss all over Black Knights as markerlights reduce to them T5 Tactical Marines that cost 42 points each and will either rely on an alpha strike in scout that rarely works against experienced players or an unreliable outflank attempt.

Everything is fine, you've got grav!



There were probably about 3-ish half-sentence points in your entire post that I found relevant and actually addressing the nature of the points I made in regards to context, the group of people and the fact the Riptide is undercosted and thus overpowered.

I rate your post three dead Terminators out of five.

Edit:

Oh dear, I almost forgot my disclaimers telling you all the things this post is not. Can I settle on the fact that I am not trying to trample your opinion which as of this moment you are subjecting to scrutiny, I'm just pointing out all the flaws in the way you put it across and all the ways in which I disagree with it?

Uh, and though no reasonable person should have to, I'm going to point out that my continued responses with points based on sound logic are not because I'm trying to better my ego, but because I'm taking part in discussion and challenging your opinion that Riptides are not overpowered, because I disagree with it.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Byte wrote:

General Orange wrote:1) Borrow around 55 guardsmen
2) blob them to 50 man squad, add a commissar and a priest
3)use the order "go go go" and charge him
4) .....
5)PROFIT

Don't forget to turn them invisible.

kingbobbito wrote: He actually told me after I won that he won't play me anymore if I'm going to be a tryhard, so overall it's a win-win situation. You should have seen the grin on my face.

I'll say it.

Dudes a certified idiot.

I would like to also add that i say this as well, above. dumb.

You should point him to this thread. For realsies. ZHes already not gonna play with a "Tryhard" like you.

I started laughing again right as i typed that. MAN thats funny.

Maybe "dumb" but a way to WAAC him back.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

Is it under costed? No it is not. Is the ion accelerator under costed? Yes that weapon is not the platform itself especially when compared to other MCs.

Not that the first point makes sense even given the second point, but okay, well given you've literally just retorted with "no its not" on the Riptide cost itself, I expect you'll have plenty of good reasons to show why now.

Besides, if you are going to admit the IA is undercosted, that logically implies the Riptide is overpowered, even if its just the IA variant.

-The most common or competitive builds if you will of Riptide points in around 210-240pts. which puts it up around the cost of a Wraithknight which is still a pretty expensive investment.

People spend more points on it and make it much better for the price it should start at anyway, and that makes it a-okay? Eh? Nevermind the fact that the Stim Injector build breaks the durability issue even further.

The base cost of the Riptide with IA, and no other upgrades should be 220-230 at least.

If he's saying 'no its not', then you've only replied with 'yes it is'.

Why should the Riptide be 220pts? What are you basing that on? It seems fairly priced in relation to Crisis Suits, Dreadknights and Wraithknights. Plenty of other models in the game can get S8 AP3 large blasts for 50pts less than a Riptide costs.
There are many counters to riptides - grav weapons again are a very popular, very effective one. Or lascannons, or plasma, or melta, or psychic powers, or getting it in combat, or getting in combat against other units so you can't be shot at, or just letting it kill itself through nova/over charges (realistically it does 2 wounds to itself over the game).

What about a riptide makes it so overpowered?

Well if we're going to look at pricing lets look at with some real numbers.

Lets look at a Riptide compared to a Hive Tyrant and Daemon Prince of Nurgle of equal points. Riptide is stock, Hive Tyrant has one set of TL Devourers and Nurgle Prince has purchased an armor save.

...............WS. BS. S. T. W. A. I. LD. SV. SV++....Points
Riptide:..2.......3....6..6..5..3..2..9.....2+...5++....180
DP:.........9.......5....6..5..4..5..8..9.....3+...5++....180
Tyrant.....8.......4....6..6..4..4..5..10...3+...----......180

So for the same price the Riptide has 1 more T (an important +1 T difference as well) 1 more wound, a better armor save, two ranged weapons and is a Jet Pack MC, so gets 2D6" more movement than the Daemon Prince. Compared to the Hive Tyrant, 1 more wound, a better armor save, an invuln save, 1 extra ranged weapon, and again is more mobile. The Prince has better WS, BS, A, and I, but that's only because it's a CC focuse MC, not a shooting focused MC so for the purposes of this argument we'll call that an even trade for the Riptide being armed with two ranged weapons, while the Prince has none. Hive Tyrant also outclasses the Riptide in WS, BS, I, and A, and is a ML2 psyker so that stacks up slightly better. The Riptide's weaponry, however, is far better than the Tyrants as it is the same strength and rate of fire, but twice the range and has an AP value, as well as possessing another ranged weapon of your choice, free of cost. The Hive Tyrant's weapon is TL, so it does have that going for it. All told, the Riptide is much more durable, faster, and has better damage output over the course of the game (i.e. better in every way) than an equally costed Daemon Prince or Hive Tyrant. That's not even counting ephemerals like the Nova Charge abilities at which point things start to get really unbalanced.

Clearly either the Riptide is severely under priced compared to a Daemon Prince and moderately under priced compared to a Hive Tyrant, or Hive Tyrants and Daemon Princes are over priced. I haven't heard many people complaining about the latter. Both the Tyrant and the Daemon Prince cost 45 points per wound so I can say with some confidence that a Riptide should cost at least 225 points stock if the costs were balanced. It's still more durable and has more damage output than either of the comparisons at that point, but at least it costs more.

Riptide: Under costed? Yes, definitely. OP? Not terribly.

so basically what I said: Riptides cant fight out of a paperbag and their LD is easily attacked. So do that and you enjoy an immense advantage over it. Try to shoot it up and you wont get stellar results.

But the Original posters issue is that his meta is not uber competitive and none of them wanna play those lists and would rather have more (I think) codex representative forces.

This guy is basically telling them he's not adjusting to a GD thing and they can all piss off.

I get that, especially the part about said player. I just figured I'd do what I could to settle the whole "Ermahgerd Riptide so OP" debate with some objectivity and quantitative information.

fair enuf and not a wasted effort. I just like focused threads. =)

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Well if we're going to look at pricing lets look at with some real numbers.

Lets look at a Riptide compared to a Hive Tyrant and Daemon Prince of Nurgle of equal points. Riptide is stock, Hive Tyrant has one set of TL Devourers and Nurgle Prince has purchased an armor save.

...............WS. BS. S. T. W. A. I. LD. SV. SV++....Points
Riptide:..2.......3....6..6..5..3..2..9.....2+...5++....180
DP:.........9.......5....6..5..4..5..8..9.....3+...5++....180
Tyrant.....8.......4....6..6..4..4..5..10...3+...----......180

So for the same price the Riptide has 1 more T (an important +1 T difference as well) 1 more wound, a better armor save, two ranged weapons and is a Jet Pack MC, so gets 2D6" more movement than the Daemon Prince. Compared to the Hive Tyrant, 1 more wound, a better armor save, an invuln save, 1 extra ranged weapon, and again is more mobile. The Prince has better WS, BS, A, and I, but that's only because it's a CC focuse MC, not a shooting focused MC so for the purposes of this argument we'll call that an even trade for the Riptide being armed with two ranged weapons, while the Prince has none. Hive Tyrant also outclasses the Riptide in WS, BS, I, and A, and is a ML2 psyker so that stacks up slightly better. The Riptide's weaponry, however, is far better than the Tyrants as it is the same strength and rate of fire, but twice the range and has an AP value, as well as possessing another ranged weapon of your choice, free of cost. The Hive Tyrant's weapon is TL, so it does have that going for it. All told, the Riptide is much more durable, faster, and has better damage output over the course of the game (i.e. better in every way) than an equally costed Daemon Prince or Hive Tyrant. That's not even counting ephemerals like the Nova Charge abilities at which point things start to get really unbalanced.

Clearly either the Riptide is severely under priced compared to a Daemon Prince and moderately under priced compared to a Hive Tyrant, or Hive Tyrants and Daemon Princes are over priced. I haven't heard many people complaining about the latter. Both the Tyrant and the Daemon Prince cost 45 points per wound so I can say with some confidence that a Riptide should cost at least 225 points stock if the costs were balanced. It's still more durable and has more damage output than either of the comparisons at that point, but at least it costs more.

Riptide: Under costed? Yes, definitely. OP? Not terribly.

You're comparing three incredibly different models; the only thing that Hive Tyrants and Daemon Princes have in common with riptides is that they are monstrous creatures. You'd get better analysis comparing riptides to fire warriors. And they only cost 9 points per wound!

Daemon Princes and Hive Tyrants are (primarily) melee-focused HQ flying monstrous creature psykers. Their base profile is a starting point to pile on more buffs (wings, mastery levels, gifts) to end up with a 300pt god rather than a 180pt gimp. They're not supposed to be costed the same as a riptide because as soon as you load a few buffs on them you get eg Nurgle Daemon Princes - ML3 Flying Monstrous Creature with Summoning, Instant Death AP2 melee weapon, 2+ cover and 4+ Feel No Pain. (On that note, Daemon Princes are currently overcosted because of the nerfs they took in 7th edition, which the riptide escaped unscathed because it is neither flying nor has many attacks.)

A riptide is a weapons platforms - it has far more in common with a Dreadknight, Wraithknight or Leman Russ (or within the Tau codex, Crisis Suits or Ionhead) than it does with combat-monster psykers.

I think it's a decent comparison. Firewarriors as a decent comparison to Riptides. . .I'm not following you.

I get that nobody takes a stock Daemon Prince or Tyrant. Nobody takes a stock Riptide either. The notion that a Riptide is a "weapons platform" is irrelevant because nearly every weapon in the game is a "weapons platform" whether those weapons deal damage by shooting or assault. That Daemon Prince you're talking about costs 335 points and 4+ FNP, or FNP in general is by no means guaranteed. The 2+ jink only makes it nearly as durably as a Riptide considering you have to land in range of most of an opposing forces' firepower before it can really do damage. A Riptide can get guaranteed FNP and either Interceptor, an ECPA, or Skyfire for under 250 pts and in general is still more durable. It might not be 45 pts under costed, but it's under costed. Maybe it's just the upgrades I mean, for 5 pts you get Interceptor on a weapon that can drop S9 AP2 pie plates. Or 20 pts for Skyfire on a weapons platform that is Heavy S6 or better? Doesn't that seem a little over the top?

I will say that there are internal balancing forces within each of the codexes referenced that help iron some of these issues out. That doesn't change the fact that Riptides are a steal for the points you spend.

Whoa whoa whoa, Dreadknight has more in common with a DP than a Riptide. It was made to be a MC killer. Also don't even think about comparing a Riptide to a Leman Russ, that is WAY too different.

A Riptide is the most shooty MC out there, barring a Dakkarynt.

Trasvi wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

Is it under costed? No it is not. Is the ion accelerator under costed? Yes that weapon is not the platform itself especially when compared to other MCs.

Not that the first point makes sense even given the second point, but okay, well given you've literally just retorted with "no its not" on the Riptide cost itself, I expect you'll have plenty of good reasons to show why now.

Besides, if you are going to admit the IA is undercosted, that logically implies the Riptide is overpowered, even if its just the IA variant.

-The most common or competitive builds if you will of Riptide points in around 210-240pts. which puts it up around the cost of a Wraithknight which is still a pretty expensive investment.

People spend more points on it and make it much better for the price it should start at anyway, and that makes it a-okay? Eh? Nevermind the fact that the Stim Injector build breaks the durability issue even further.

The base cost of the Riptide with IA, and no other upgrades should be 220-230 at least.

If he's saying 'no its not', then you've only replied with 'yes it is'.

Why should the Riptide be 220pts? What are you basing that on? It seems fairly priced in relation to Crisis Suits, Dreadknights and Wraithknights. Plenty of other models in the game can get S8 AP3 large blasts for 50pts less than a Riptide costs.
There are many counters to riptides - grav weapons again are a very popular, very effective one. Or lascannons, or plasma, or melta, or psychic powers, or getting it in combat, or getting in combat against other units so you can't be shot at, or just letting it kill itself through nova/over charges (realistically it does 2 wounds to itself over the game).

What about a riptide makes it so overpowered?

I covered it in my previous post. Let's say you have it start with a Riptide at 190 with IA and EWO.

That's 40 points more than a Leman Russ, but....

Its several times more durable, and high strength AP3 or less will do diddly squit against it but strip hull points off the Russ.
Resistance to Haywire.
Can't be immobilised, stunned, shaken, have weapons destroyed, etc
It is several times taller and has an insane amount of LOS vision across the board, while having effectively infinite range
The pieplate is AP2.
It can do a jetpack move to hide or escape, or to get another angle on LOS and retreat
The secondary gun is twin linked and miles better in all cases before LRBT upgrades...
And that's not even considering everything other than the main gun snapfires.
Doesn't take up heavy support slots.
Isn't always the crutch the entire army rests on, unless spammed.
Nova charges as well.
Oh, and gets one of the rarest and best abilities in the game in the form of interceptor, which means it has a strong defense against deep strikers.


The comparison is perfectly valid because when it boils down to it because the IA Riptide and the LRBT at their basic form do the same thing by lobbing pie plates. Just the Riptide is a miles better platform with many more advantages yet only costs a small amount more.


I'd put in a better format but I'm on my phone. There are plenty of other valid comparisons to make.

You are aware right, that it takes about 16 ish BS4 Lascannon shots to kill a Riptide iirc, and about a third more BS3 IG Lascannons? That's a ridiculous amount of points, and with the former, you could fill Heavy Support with Lascannon Devastators and still need a third of them to fire again in the next turn ; you're hoping your Lascannons don't get blasted away following this by other Riptides, and that your opponent doesn't just Nova Charge for the 3+ invulnerable that effectively means it won't die this turn.

Can someone more creative than me please come up with a "Too Many Cooks" spin-off entitled "Too Many Riptides?" I don't ask for much internet, but if you could make this happen, I would be forever grateful.

that they are different doesnt matter. The comparisons have SOME validity if only to illustrate how to defeat them best: With Daemons you wanna shoot them dead. With Riptides you want to assault them dead. Which is why balanced lists win.

Riptides are pretty weak to be honest, sure they can have one good gun, but they have so many weaknesses.

Refuse play. No fun watching a riptides shoot your army to pieces. Or make the battlefield with tons of cover big buildings everywhere anything you can do to break line of sight.

Damn riptides.

 Quickjager wrote:
Whoa whoa whoa, Dreadknight has more in common with a DP than a Riptide. It was made to be a MC killer. Also don't even think about comparing a Riptide to a Leman Russ, that is WAY too different.

A Riptide is the most shooty MC out there, barring a Dakkarynt.

How is the DK not like the Riptide? Both are durable MC! The only difference is that the DK is superior to the Riptide in every possible way!

Yup. Dread Knights deserve a lot more fear, in my opinion and look at their cost! lol. WORTH IT.

But thats irrelvant because what the OP is talking about is a guy stuiffing 7 of the darn things in hius list and flipping the gaming group off.

So... Yes Dread Knights are scarier buuuut the dude in question isnt playing them.

I've never actually had problems with Riptides--- but then again, we actually have a pretty good density of LOS blockers and Cover.

Also, I suppose the guys I play against don't min-max them as much... they throw them into battle like the mechs they are, instead of trying to snipe or kite.

Why are you comparing a MC to a tank? Of course the Riptide is better in that comparison use something relevant maybe? And good thing I'm not trying to impress you, you can keep your biased opinion just because of your Tau hate (just as you say mine is because I play Tau) its okay you can continue to be a forum tough guy, only state this because of how far you go out of your way to try an prove me wrong, keep trying!

Also funny you claim my post is full of useless material when you do the exact same thing...interesting. you also accuse me of continually saying people are employing people are stupid, when I have never said as such. You also try to say that I don't understand where I'm coming from a casual gamer point of view which is also false. Either way mate you try to hard to go out of your way to prove a point chill out maybe?

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
MrOmega before you try and slander my opinion by accusing me of "sneering down my nose" at Riptide haters maybe you should know your facts about me before you spout off that nonsense. I personally like the Riptide because of how the model looks and I love the ability to have some mobile heavy firepower. Also i have never been a WAAC style of player, I tend to bring more themed and fluffy list than anything else and though they are strong builds, they are by no means OP, even then I have options to change them out and make it a more casual list.

Now that being said I never said that the Riptide wasn't strong, but it gets very annoying and tiresome when people constantly say its OP instead of finding proper ways to deal with it and blame their losses because of this so-called overpowered unit. Also it should be noted that this is in regards to any unit that people constantly complain about, not just for the Riptides. Is it under costed? No it is not. Is the ion accelerator under costed? Yes that weapon is not the platform itself especially when compared to other MCs.

You then proceeded to throw the "you only give vague responses" comment. Funny, in a thread that's dedicated to dealing with multiple riptides you would have thought that I wouldn't have had to explain myself since it is already been covered a couple times. Very well, to satisfy your ego here are a few reasons:

-The most common or competitive builds if you will of Riptide points in around 210-240pts. which puts it up around the cost of a Wraithknight which is still a pretty expensive investment.

-The newest variant of Riptide the Y'Vahra not only clocks in at 265pts. with a Stim Injector which is an auto include as its max range is 14 inches, meaning that it'll probably kill one unit before getting unloaded upon and dying. also it has one less wound making it that much easier to kill.

-The R'Varna is probably the nastier of the three variants but thankfully Forgeworld nerfed it for its final cut to make it a bit more reasonable. This variant clocks in at 290pts. with the sole purpose of sitting back and unloading pie plates. As I will mention in the tactics below, you should handle this one as a standard ion accelerator Riptide in regards to how you play against it and you should be ok.

-The biggest reason that people seem to forget is the fact that it hurts itself 1/3 of the time it tries to use its Nova Charge. However as mentioned the Ion Accelerator negates this with its second firing mode hence why I stated the Accelerator is under costed not the platform itself.

Just a few reasons though they will have just been rehashed yet again. I do apologize for derailing the thread a little bit however I do not like people making comments about me that are inaccurate and vague. To put the thread back on track here are a couple tricks I've learned that work very well against my Tau and Farsight Enclave army:

-Imperial Armies ability to ally is probably the strongest thing in the game. No other races have as much variety of units, styles of play or abilities to choose from.look into the other Imperial books to see what you can add into your army to help level the playing field.

-Any type of Psychic Power will wreck Tau armies, especially such powers like Psychic Shriek against the Farsight Enclaves will do a lot of damage. We only have one psychic defense item out of both of our books, taking a Libby could help in a lot of ways.

-If he is running lots of suits you can never go wrong with blast templates or just weight of fire. People seem to forget that 3 Crisis Suits is equivalent to 6 Space Marines in regards to wounds. Also massed bolter fire you can't go wrong with massed bolter fire you can't go wrong with either.

-Drop Pod armies as well as Space Marine bike lists (basically anything that can get into our face very quickly) is a very good counter. Now in this instance you really need to take into account your allying ability, a friend of mind uses Space Wolves and Space Marines in a deadly combo of Grav-Centurians in drop pods to get them close enough to unload on my riptides and to keep them off the table if I get the first turn so they can't be shot at.and as everyone has said it, GRAV-WEAPONRY you cannot go wrong with. If you are playing Dark Angels don't hesitate to bring in some allies, or just take Black Knights. Twin-linked plasma can do just as much damage as Grav-Weapons.

Hopefully these suggestions will help, if you want to know more specifically about combating the Farsight Enclaves id be more than happy to assist. I don't play my Tau any other way

MrOmega before you try and slander my opinion by accusing me of "sneering down my nose" at Riptide haters maybe you should know your facts about me before you spout off that nonsense.

Also i have never been a WAAC style of player, I tend to bring more themed and fluffy list than anything else

In a different thread, on a very similar topic, very recently;

[

 gmaleron wrote:

sorry I generally play in a competitive environment where people like to bring their A game and play against each other but of course that means I don't know what I'm talking about. people like you make me laugh

I didn't include the part where you went on to call me elitist, but do you not see what massive hypocrite you've just proven yourself to be? WAAC =/= competitive, but the implications are completely opposite in these two posts, in the latter you were basically implying to me my opinion is worth gak because I was talking about lower level play as well, as I outlined the imbalance of Riptides at lower levels and without massive preparation. What you were directly saying is that I was acting as though you were wrong because you play at a competitive level, which was a load of rubbish. Are you surprised I saw that as sneering?

I may as well have taught you the word slander given the irony of what I've just had to point out, and the fact that you dropped to ridiculous lows slandering me in that same thread because you couldn't respond with an argument.

Funny, in a thread that's dedicated to dealing with multiple riptides you would have thought that I wouldn't have had to explain myself since it is already been covered a couple times.

You're speaking but not saying anything. The thread is about some concerns with Riptides, you said something I thought was false, so I challenged you on it. You didn't deliver until this post. And you did so poorly.

people constantly say its OP instead of finding proper ways to deal with it and blame their losses because of this so-called overpowered unit.

Again with the implying people are stupid and incapable of doing things, as well as sore and looking for a scapegoat. Its an insulting, fallacious way of making an argument where you have no data or evidence to prove it.

Is it under costed? No it is not. Is the ion accelerator under costed? Yes that weapon is not the platform itself especially when compared to other MCs.

Not that the first point makes sense even given the second point, but okay, well given you've literally just retorted with "no its not" on the Riptide cost itself, I expect you'll have plenty of good reasons to show why now.

Besides, if you are going to admit the IA is undercosted, that logically implies the Riptide is overpowered, even if its just the IA variant.

-The most common or competitive builds if you will of Riptide points in around 210-240pts. which puts it up around the cost of a Wraithknight which is still a pretty expensive investment.

People spend more points on it and make it much better for the price it should start at anyway, and that makes it a-okay? Eh? Nevermind the fact that the Stim Injector build breaks the durability issue even further.

The base cost of the Riptide with IA, and no other upgrades should be 220-230 at least.

-The newest variant of Riptide the Y'Vahra not only clocks in at 265pts. with a Stim Injector which is an auto include as its max range is 14 inches, meaning that it'll probably kill one unit before getting unloaded upon and dying. also it has one less wound making it that much easier to kill.

- High points =/= Instantly bad

- One unit kill before death is a massive exaggeration, not a valid point, and a fallacy. If you're going to use point's that question the intelligence and inherent judgement of people who think they're overpowered, can I question your incredible inability to make it last more than a turn?

- This is basically irrelevant for the most part anyway considering I never claimed the Y'Vahra was overpowered

-The R'Varna is probably the nastier of the three variants but thankfully Forgeworld nerfed it for its final cut to make it a bit more reasonable. This variant clocks in at 290pts. with the sole purpose of sitting back and unloading pie plates. As I will mention in the tactics below, you should handle this one as a standard ion accelerator Riptide in regards to how you play against it and you should be ok.

You've spoken but not said anything. Again, basically irrelevant to my post.

-The biggest reason that people seem to forget is the fact that it hurts itself 1/3 of the time it tries to use its Nova Charge. However as mentioned the Ion Accelerator negates this with its second firing mode hence why I stated the Accelerator is under costed not the platform itself.

- The Riptide doesn't even need the Nova Charge to be as overpowered as it is; if an opponent thinks it would be detrimental to use, they won't use Nova Charge. I hear most Tau players don't even use it most of the time, but it is that much extra power.

I do not like people making comments about me that are inaccurate and vague.

.....

-Imperial Armies ability to ally is probably the strongest thing in the game. No other races have as much variety of units, styles of play or abilities to choose from.look into the other Imperial books to see what you can add into your army to help level the playing field.

This has limited applications to the people I'm talking in large part about who don't want to just take stuff that gives plain advantages or hard counters like taking ceramite teddy bears out of the Marine Codex to fit in their IG. Its probably about the best point you've made in this entire post still.

Even for high end players, a lot of tournaments restrict ally potential to one book.

-Any type of Psychic Power will wreck Tau armies, especially such powers like Psychic Shriek against the Farsight Enclaves will do a lot of damage. We only have one psychic defense item out of both of our books, taking a Libby could help in a lot of ways.

- First clause is exaggerated, objectively false in at least some part and not a good way to start here...

-Psychic Shriek is nice, but has 18'' range, and you'll have very limited numbers of Psykers with it who can be taken apart if the Tau player perceives them as a threat. A Libby is not exactly the most reliable counter to Riptides, but one of the better ones.

-If he is running lots of suits you can never go wrong with blast templates or just weight of fire. People seem to forget that 3 Crisis Suits is equivalent to 6 Space Marines in regards to wounds. Also massed bolter fire you can't go wrong with massed bolter fire you can't go wrong with either.

Crisis Suits are irrelevant.

The last sentence was amusing, in part because of how it reads and in part because massed bolter fire is generally an all-round terrible idea as a list strategy, and even if speaking as though you meant it to be circumstantial and relative to army list size in the moment, t probably means little anyway.

-Drop Pod armies as well as Space Marine bike lists (basically anything that can get into our face very quickly) is a very good counter. Now in this instance you really need to take into account your allying ability, a friend of mind uses Space Wolves and Space Marines in a deadly combo of Grav-Centurians in drop pods to get them close enough to unload on my riptides and to keep them off the table if I get the first turn so they can't be shot at.and as everyone has said it, GRAV-WEAPONRY you cannot go wrong with. If you are playing Dark Angels don't hesitate to bring in some allies, or just take Black Knights. Twin-linked plasma can do just as much damage as Grav-Weapons.

- Your first point is using the broken, unfluffy, abusive, inconvenient method of Grav Centurion drop pods.... Yeah. Not relevant to the people I'm talking about for the most part, both because ceramite teddy bears and because of all the aforementioned reasons. At the highest level? Sure. It'll work. But I already pointed out that Riptide lists aren't broken at the highest level. Riptides themselves, particularly with IA, are undercosted and thus overpowered.

-Dark Angels are a terrible Codex, and Tau will piss all over Black Knights as markerlights reduce to them T5 Tactical Marines that cost 42 points each and will either rely on an alpha strike in scout that rarely works against experienced players or an unreliable outflank attempt.

Everything is fine, you've got grav!



There were probably about 3-ish half-sentence points in your entire post that I found relevant and actually addressing the nature of the points I made in regards to context, the group of people and the fact the Riptide is undercosted and thus overpowered.

I rate your post three dead Terminators out of five.

Edit:

Oh dear, I almost forgot my disclaimers telling you all the things this post is not. Can I settle on the fact that I am not trying to trample your opinion which as of this moment you are subjecting to scrutiny, I'm just pointing out all the flaws in the way you put it across and all the ways in which I disagree with it?

Uh, and though no reasonable person should have to, I'm going to point out that my continued responses with points based on sound logic are not because I'm trying to better my ego, but because I'm taking part in discussion and challenging your opinion that Riptides are not overpowered, because I disagree with it.

So you say he saying that he thinks your opinion is Gak when you turn around and do the same thing to him? Hmm also just because he plays in a competitive environment doesn't mean he doesn't understand what it's like coming from the casual point of view, in fact actually looking over his threads like you did he's made several cases of how he has the option to change of his list for more casual play.I think you're trying too hard to try to get your opinion across bro, you're coming across as a dick

 gmaleron wrote:
Why are you comparing a MC to a tank? Of course the Riptide is better in that comparison use something relevant maybe? And good thing I'm not trying to impress you, you can keep your biased opinion just because of your Tau hate (just as you say mine is because I play Tau) its okay you can continue to be a forum tough guy, only state this because of how far you go out of your way to try an prove me wrong, keep trying! Also funny you claim my post is full of useless material when you do the exact same thing...interesting.

only state this because of how far you go out of your way to try an prove me wrong

1) I generally analyse every single point in almost every tactics post/analytical post I make directly in response to someone, when I'm not giving a general response to an idea. That's out of respect and out of principle. You're not a special snowflake, though having posts filled with fallacies and inaccuracies, vagueness, errors, manipulative skirting/evasion just gives me more to look over.

2) You go out of your way to keep replying, despite having nothing to say except an absolute load of contrived bs and lies. Credit where credit is due, the last post had an attempt at analysis, but this another one of your posts where you only respond by just personally attacking me.

-Of course my opinion is biased. I'm not the second coming of christ, I don't have to be the objective arbiter here.
-That weird, pointless comment about impressing me (put it this way, you haven't)
-"I'm losing this argument, so I'll just slander him as an internet tough guy" (I've lost count of the number of times you made some variation of this one, and I find each time more amusing than the last. In its simplest meaning you're complimenting me. Gee, thanks!)
-"hurr durr your post is useless, not mine"

Why are you comparing a MC to a tank? Of course the Riptide is better in that comparison use something relevant maybe?

Being the only thing approaching a point in this post, I'll just point out how vague you're being as a shining example of what is wrong with your arguing style. They have the same role. They do the same basic function of lob pie plates. They are both resistant to heavy firepower. They're in the same sort of price bracket. Its a valid comparison.

This comment is like saying you can't compare the health benefits of drinking Coffee to drinking Tea because one of them comes from beans and the other comes from leaves. It's just fallacious.

Yeah, I'm just about done with you. You can reply with thought out, focused points and analysis or I'm not going to bother giving you the time of day anymore in this thread.


Edit:

despite your attempts to say they are vague as that seems to be your only attempt to disapprove me

I've put my 4 logical points in 4 different bright colours so you can easily identify them. You don't have to thank me, now the organs known as your eyes only have to work half as hard. This should facilitate your imminent useful response.

lol okay man, sorry for just pointing out a technicality that you so often do in my threads, not so much fun when the shoe was on the other foot is it? Personally I would have compared it more to a Wraithknight as it fits much better than a vehicle would in regards to its durability, points cost because no one takes a naked Riptide and movement, or is that too vague?

And I'm not at all losing this argument, I've made several valid points despite your attempts to say they are vague as that seems to be your only attempt to disapprove me and what I've experienced first hand as a Tau player and an opponent against them. Well that and of course making false assumptions about my character as an individual and player in order to get your point across.

Riptide is broken, because it breaks how the players generally prepare on Riptide-like threats. For example, most players are prepared on the possibility that they will meet heavy tanks or multiple monstrous creatures. For heavy tanks they generally take big guns which coincidentally also tend to work on MC's.

However, many of the weapons of that class are ineffective on Riptide because:
-Riptide has 2+ save, which almost completely negates AP3 or AP4 weaponry, many of which are staple anti-tank or anti-MC guns (Missile launchers, Autocannons, Battle cannons)
-Riptide has 5 wounds and can't be instakilled, stunned or shaken etc, which means that powerful, expensive one-shot weapons like Lascannons, or Ordnance weapons, are very ineffective unless present in very large numbers
-both of the above also go long way negating traditional Monstrous creature weakness - small arms fire.

Of course there are also weapons which do work on Riptide, but this creates a dichotomy, where the weapons are divided on those which are good anti-Riptide weapons, and those which are not. Which is completely nonsensical way to design a game. It is simply potentially very unbalacing to have this kind of unit because unless you specifically prepare for it, there are good odds that you have very little ways to hurt it. Which, in turn, is extremely frustrating experience.

Lets not even mention how illogical it is that a battlesuit is near immune to powerful weapons which have high odds to one-shot a main battle tank.

Backfire wrote:

-Riptide has 5 wounds and can't be instakilled, stunned or shaken etc, which means that powerful, expensive one-shot weapons like Lascannons, or Ordnance weapons, are very ineffective unless present in very large numbers.

The Riptide can be instakilled, just not by a weapon's strength. So long as you can wound it with a weapon with Instant Death, since it does not have Eternal Warrior, it will indeed die.

Good thing there are many of those that are ether at range or on a platform that wont be instagibbed before it gets into combat

or cheap enough to spam

PSILENCER HOOOOOOO!

and Wraithknights... fully half of all deaths of my riptides have been via Wraighknight distort.

There are plenty of weapons to use against riptides - whatever you would be using against terminators is a good start. Plasma, Grav, Rending, Poison are all available in sufficient numbers to take down a riptide.


If you think it is so impossible to get the weapons to take down riptides via shooting, you're also going to lose against terminators or thunderwolves or carnifexes or wraithknights or AV13-14....

Trasvi wrote:
and Wraithknights... fully half of all deaths of my riptides have been via Wraighknight distort.

There are plenty of weapons to use against riptides - whatever you would be using against terminators is a good start. Plasma, Grav, Rending, Poison are all available in sufficient numbers to take down a riptide.


If you think it is so impossible to get the weapons to take down riptides via shooting, you're also going to lose against terminators or thunderwolves or carnifexes or wraithknights or AV13-14....

Not entirely accurate

No TWC Carny WK or even terminators can get interceptor or can ignore cover.

The usual delivery systems of Drop pods or deep striking near can be easily punked on arrival, and at that other speedy methods generally depend on cover to get the jerb done or is high armor which riptides bypass.
(aka spend the first turns killing the marker drones and have the second set of pods drop by with the tide killers.)

Imperial Knights do wonders. At 1000 pts you can fit in 1 knight in a very balanced yet powerful SM or DA build. So you could either beat him with cheese or stop playing with him. I prefer the beating cheese with cheese approach. If you need help building a list PM me, I won the last two local tournaments using space marines allied with a single imperial knight

Trasvi wrote:
and Wraithknights... fully half of all deaths of my riptides have been via Wraighknight distort.

There are plenty of weapons to use against riptides - whatever you would be using against terminators is a good start. Plasma, Grav, Rending, Poison are all available in sufficient numbers to take down a riptide.

If you think it is so impossible to get the weapons to take down riptides via shooting, you're also going to lose against terminators or thunderwolves or carnifexes or wraithknights or AV13-14....

Nonsense. Terminators are T4 and multiple model unit, which means they get about 3 times more wounds than Riptide...which means they die about 3 times faster (remember, large blast can cause 5 wounds to a Terminator unit, and only 1 wound to Riptide). And every lost wound means a dead Terminator, and loss of units firepower and combat ability. I play Deathwing, so I am pretty well aware how durable Terminators are - they are not. Thunder wolves are usually 3+ T5, so they also take much more wounds than Riptide and also can be instakilled by S10 large blasts. Carnifex is 3+ no inv save, and vulnerable to almost all battlefield weapons.

Nobody ever complains that Terminators and Carnifexes are too hard to kill.

 kingbobbito wrote:
Better question, is it worth even playing him? The few wins I had were due to him underestimating my librarian, and all he did was complain for the rest of the night about me being terrible at the game. For once I am legitimately pissed at someone.

This guy seems like a dick, just don't play with him nomatter what he brings.

 kingbobbito wrote:
I'll start by saying that our meta is extremely casual, none of us are particularly great, and I can honestly say there is no cheese. As a result none of us are really sure what to do now that someone is going all in to win. He currently has 7 Riptides (three standard, one for farsight, and three Forgeworld Y'varhas). We're considering banning the Y'varhas, because at the moment they are in the experimental stage, but even then he'd run as many of the standard as possible. 500 point game? 1 Riptide. 1000 points, three Riptides. Our main Ork player is getting absolutely wrecked and is considering leaving the game for a few months, I've got a really casual, fluffy dark angels list and keep getting absolutely rolled over.

What can I do to deal with a Riptide at 500 points? I have a chance with my librarian (psychic shriek), but he stands in the far back corners, and psychic shriek is far from reliable. Lascannon squads are dead by turn 2, and the jet movements make it easy for him to stay in cover.

Alternatively, what about at 1000? Terminators are too slow to get into melee, and he has interceptor on all of them. At this point my dev squads get absolutely obliterated, and a librarian is his first target.

Better question, is it worth even playing him? The few wins I had were due to him underestimating my librarian, and all he did was complain for the rest of the night about me being terrible at the game. For once I am legitimately pissed at someone.

Start collecting 30k Adeptus Mechanicus. Use Automata exclusively.

Why is it always the Riptide that receives the hate when you guys are complaining about the features that the Dreadknight also has, so where is the hate towards them?

You guys just think its still cool to hate on Tau.

Plasma guns still wound Riptides on a 3+ and I thought that everyone spammed plasma these days? Riptides die easily if you are not a complete idiot who bitches for no reason!

Hurry, Riptide! Riptide's gaining on us!

SGTPozy wrote:
Why is it always the Riptide that receives the hate when you guys are complaining about the features that the Dreadknight also has, so where is the hate towards them?
!

More wounds, better invuln, more mobility, better weapon systems, easy access to cheap systems such as interceptor, skyfire, FNP, cost less, etc.

That being said, Riptides are no different than any other enemy unit. Either deal with it if you have the options or ignore it if you dont. One unit will not make or break a game unless you are running a total fluff list.

SGTPozy wrote:
Why is it always the Riptide that receives the hate when you guys are complaining about the features that the Dreadknight also has, so where is the hate towards them?

You guys just think its still cool to hate on Tau.

Plasma guns still wound Riptides on a 3+ and I thought that everyone spammed plasma these days? Riptides die easily if you are not a complete idiot who bitches for no reason!

Yeah because saying anything about anything nowadays is just hate and bitching.

So yeah have fun getting to the riptides with those mass spam plasmas. id love to see it.

The main difference between the DK and the RT is that the rip can pie plate at AP2. a dread will remove 4+ troops with no issue but cant do gak to terminators.
Both nearly have the same movements and stats, but one can bump up to a 3++, can get wargear for FNP and interceptor and a few other junky ones. AND they benfit from one of the most OP wargear in the game (le markerlights)

Im pretty sure thats why plently of people have "issues" with the tide.

Pozy your bias is showing again. If you can't offer anything more than "get good" then you ARE the problem.

 Desubot wrote:
Yeah because saying anything about anything nowadays is just hate and bitching.
So yeah have fun getting to the riptides with those mass spam plasmas. id love to see it.
The main difference between the DK and the RT is that the rip can pie plate at AP2. a dread will remove 4+ troops with no issue but cant do gak to terminators.
Both nearly have the same movements and stats, but one can bump up to a 3++, can get wargear for FNP and interceptor and a few other junky ones. AND they benfit from one of the most OP wargear in the game (le markerlights)
Im pretty sure thats why plently of people have "issues" with the tide.

The Riptide is strong but I definitely agree the hate for the Riptide and against the Tau in general is completely overblown especially with things like DreadKnights, Imperial Knights, Wraithknights ect. this is a stigma relating from the last edition where when combined with Eldar they were a very powerful book. However it still appears that some people still have the old Tau mind, their top two lists don't even exist legally anymore. Also you forgot to mention for the Dreadknight:

-Much better in close combat and cheaper points wise.

-Access to an instant death weapons.

-Lots of psychic power ability both with the unit and with the Army as a whole.

-Once again since everyone seems to ignore this, getting that 3++ you have a 1/3 chance of failing and hurting your own unit, it's not autopowers.

-Marker Lights are good but they are a points investment and are only on a toughness 3 or 4 model with a 4+ armor save at best, they are not invincible and even then they only can be put on one target at a time.

If You're going to bring support options into this then the Grey Knights have access to a lot of nasty stuff as well, for example being able to generate an insane amount of power dice every turn or being able to take an Imperial Knights or Purifier squads in Space Wolf drop pods thanks to allies. And I don't want to hear the "only WAAC players do that" excuse because I have fought against it courtesy of playing in a strong list environment and even then everybody has the ability to do so so its not out of the question to mention.

This thread is bitching about Riptides because that's what the OP was asking about in his meta. He doesn't have an issue with too many Dreadknights thus the thread title.

We also have the option to bring a DK HQ and Fast Attack slot and Elite slot.

Oh wait.

You always know what a DK is gonna do and it is always going to be in range to be hurt. Riptide... not so much. Wraithknight, melee always in range to be hurt. Imperial Knight melee always in range to be hurt.

All have 12 inch move. Logically then the most dangerous one is the one that can hurt the other ones at range. We are left with Riptide then IK then DK then WK.

 Quickjager wrote:
We also have the option to bring a DK HQ and Fast Attack slot and Elite slot.

Oh wait.

You always know what a DK is gonna do and it is always going to be in range to be hurt. Riptide... not so much. Wraithknight, melee always in range to be hurt. Imperial Knight melee always in range to be hurt.

All have 12 inch move. Logically then the most dangerous one is the one that can hurt the other ones at range. We are left with Riptide then IK then DK then WK.

How is the Riptide NOT predictable when it has the Ion Accelerator? Wraithknight can go both ways as well.

Col. Dash wrote:
This thread is bitching about Riptides because that's what the OP was asking about in his meta. He doesn't have an issue with too many Dreadknights thus the thread title.

He is talking about Riptides but I am not the first to make a comparison of the Riptide to a similar unit, especially when it points out certain factors that it may or may not have.

A wraithknight that only shoots is welcome in my book, it means he is staying away from the center of the board and a allows me to control the center. For it's point cost it is pretty ineffective if itis only shooting.

 Quickjager wrote:
A wraithknight that only shoots is welcome in my book, it means he is staying away from the center of the board and a allows me to control the center. For it's point cost it is pretty ineffective if itis only shooting.

It can do both very well, why I feel it is stronger then the Riptide in a lot of aspects especially for that reason, have had a Riptide snuffed out by one running up the table shooting its S10 guns once

SGTPozy wrote:
Why is it always the Riptide that receives the hate when you guys are complaining about the features that the Dreadknight also has, so where is the hate towards them?

You guys just think its still cool to hate on Tau.

I am a (former) Tau player, I do not hate Tau. I do hate the current Codex tho.

Personally, I think that Dreadknight is nearly as offensive as Riptide for much of the same reasons so you guys are preaching to the choir here! However in practice, DK gets less hate. Well it does have one less wound, but main reason is probably that DK is primarily close combat unit which has to get relatively close to do its dirty work. There it is vulnerable to rapid fire Plasmas and Meltaguns, all very common weapons so it is more likely to get quickly cut down, unlike Riptide which can just stay back - like tank, which it is not.

Riptides are really cool and I use them. But I have already proven, and then some, to my fellow competitiors that i dont need them to win and so they do not really care if I bring them and I only bring two, tops.

However, this fellow bringing seven, calling him a "Tryhard" and the entire group kind of begging for mercy... I mean there's just a contract there that he's ignoring.

Tournaments are one thing. Casual play another. I think this dude needs to learn how to play better and get a more varied collection. MAYBE hes trapped financially right now. Thats why I said to switch armies with him and let his opponents have a go with them. It might actually be fun for everyone then

 kingbobbito wrote:


Overall all the advice so far has been helpful though, thanks everyone. I tried some of it (mostly with how I used the terrain and went purely for the tactical objectives), and ended up winning 7-2, even though I had only killed a handful of fire warriors. I didn't even have to change my list around too much, I just quit caring about fighting (which sadly did make the game less fun). He actually told me after I won that he won't play me anymore if I'm going to be a tryhard, so overall it's a win-win situation. You should have seen the grin on my face.

He... what?

If you did not immediatly punch him in his filthy Xenos face, then you should rename yourself Ghandi. For clearly your forbearance is beyond mortal limits.

 Ezaviel wrote:


If you did not immediatly punch him in his filthy Xenos face, then you should rename yourself Ghandi

Ghandy would have played unbound maxing ethereals with equalizers.

Jagger, your 'woe is me' bias is showing again. You don't think that GK's have any cheese just because you play them, but guess what? The DK is FAR more cheesy.

People love to point out what a Riptide CAN have, but it can only take two of the many wargear options available to it.

The Dreadknight can:
Get a 4++ (CHEEEEEEEESE!)
Move 30" (CHEEEEEESE)
Move 12" (CHEEEEEEESE)
Instant death CC (CHEEESE)
Instand death shooting (Extremely cheesy)
Torrent flamer +1 ('cuz GK have to have a better flamer than SM...)
Heavy psycannon that can fire as a large blast! (you could get 12 guys under that blast!)
psycannon has AP2 (see what I did there? I ignored the probably of getting it and just assumed that it was successful every time)
Can have TWO super cheesy guns, whilst the Riptide can only have 1.
Mastercrafted CC.
S10 in combat.
5 attacks (6 on the charge).

Have I missed anything else?
Oh yeah, they have great synergy with Interceptors,(and people complain that Riptides can get interceptor, whilst the DK has at least 5).
Finally, the entire army can have S7 CC AND force... 'cuz that's not cheese


To those claiming that Riptides can just hide away; they can only hide if you play long-ways on the board, so play width-ways then he'll be maximum 24" from you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forgot to add, you just have to spread your guys out to avoid being pie plated, its not exactly hard to do.

 Ezaviel wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:


Overall all the advice so far has been helpful though, thanks everyone. I tried some of it (mostly with how I used the terrain and went purely for the tactical objectives), and ended up winning 7-2, even though I had only killed a handful of fire warriors. I didn't even have to change my list around too much, I just quit caring about fighting (which sadly did make the game less fun). He actually told me after I won that he won't play me anymore if I'm going to be a tryhard, so overall it's a win-win situation. You should have seen the grin on my face.

He... what?

If you did not immediatly punch him in his filthy Xenos face, then you should rename yourself Ghandi. For clearly your forbearance is beyond mortal limits.

Just watch out when he gets democracy, or he will come after you with Deathstrike Missiles and Titans.

 Nilok wrote:

 Ezaviel wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:


Overall all the advice so far has been helpful though, thanks everyone. I tried some of it (mostly with how I used the terrain and went purely for the tactical objectives), and ended up winning 7-2, even though I had only killed a handful of fire warriors. I didn't even have to change my list around too much, I just quit caring about fighting (which sadly did make the game less fun). He actually told me after I won that he won't play me anymore if I'm going to be a tryhard, so overall it's a win-win situation. You should have seen the grin on my face.

He... what?

If you did not immediatly punch him in his filthy Xenos face, then you should rename yourself Ghandi. For clearly your forbearance is beyond mortal limits.

Just watch out when he gets democracy, or he will come after you with Deathstrike Missiles and Titans.

And takes away your oil for the greater good.

In my opinion the dk and riptide are just as good as each other (dk being slightly better due to it being awesome in combat aswell as shooting) but the problem i see is that while the two are good you almost always see 2 dk (at least) in a gk list while multiple riptides are less seen. I appreciate that the dk is a good unit and is undercosted but to preach that multiple riptides is dickish must mean multiple dk are too?

I've had hate for my opinion on multiple dks but as I've played against both tau and gks regularly i have to say a typical gk list (multiple dks) is much better than a list that runs a single riptide.

To the op, if you don't want to play against his list dont, play someone else it'll hurt him more than you.

 Quickjager wrote:
A wraithknight that only shoots is welcome in my book, it means he is staying away from the center of the board and a allows me to control the center. For it's point cost it is pretty ineffective if itis only shooting.

I'd welcome Dreadknights that only shoots OR assaults, but that's not going to happen now is it? So why say that about the Wraithknight when your NC is far more broken and cheesy.

As I mentioned before Tau hate is completely overdone as there is plenty in the Imperial arsenal to handle Riptides, people at this point should realize that a Tau army will at least have on and plan accordingly.

And to the OP, Congrats on your win! I am sorry that this Tau player seems to be a complete @$$ and making others look bad, don't change a thing. If he calls you a Try Hard point to his list and laugh in his face!

SGTPozy wrote:


To those claiming that Riptides can just hide away; they can only hide if you play long-ways on the board, so play width-ways then he'll be maximum 24" from you.

Assuming dawn of war I can start an easy 32" away up to depending on your deployment 48" or more from anything that can it or effectively hurt it. Nothing requires me to but the RT on the deployment line directly in front of you army.

I am not derailing this thread Pozy, go necro one of your old threads if you want to make a point.

 Desubot wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
and Wraithknights... fully half of all deaths of my riptides have been via Wraighknight distort.

There are plenty of weapons to use against riptides - whatever you would be using against terminators is a good start. Plasma, Grav, Rending, Poison are all available in sufficient numbers to take down a riptide.


If you think it is so impossible to get the weapons to take down riptides via shooting, you're also going to lose against terminators or thunderwolves or carnifexes or wraithknights or AV13-14....

Not entirely accurate

No TWC Carny WK or even terminators can get interceptor or can ignore cover.

The usual delivery systems of Drop pods or deep striking near can be easily punked on arrival, and at that other speedy methods generally depend on cover to get the jerb done or is high armor which riptides bypass.
(aka spend the first turns killing the marker drones and have the second set of pods drop by with the tide killers.)

Well they can certainly get ignore cover. Divination?

How would a Carnifex get Divination?

No. Just the TWC, Wraithknights and Terminators.

Ahhh okay I was wondering if there was a loophole or something I didn't know.

Hm... technically... a Carnifex can have acid blood... thats ignore cover, isn't it?

 gmaleron wrote:
As I mentioned before Tau hate is completely overdone as there is plenty in the Imperial arsenal to handle Riptides, people at this point should realize that a Tau army will at least have on and plan accordingly.

But this does not excuse crappy gaming design which is Riptide. In fact, quite the opposite - when a single unit so changes the meta that some very common weapon types are left wayside because they are no good against Riptide, it's precisely evidence of how poorly designed unit it is.

It's not just Riptides though. Wraithknights and Dreadknights present the same problems for most armies. With the same kind of solutions.

I played against 4 rips in a tournament last weekend.. No biggie.. Know your enemy

broo wrote:
I played against 4 rips in a tournament last weekend.. No biggie.. Know your enemy

care to share? cant be much more effort to post the useful information you have than to beat those 4 rips right?

Sure... I assaulted one with a small nurglings squad buffed by cursed earth.. Used enfeebled with warp gaze on another.. Then terrify and dominate the others.. It was dawn of war deployment and they were spread out across deployment. I attacked the left flank hard using Los terrain to minimize what they could target.. Delt with them one or two at a time by flipping it to hamvil.. I also ignore them a bit and took out marker lights.. Using terrify on broadsides is great too...

 Quickjager wrote:
I am not derailing this thread Pozy, go necro one of your old threads if you want to make a point.

Woah, calm down! No need to get your panties in a bunch, I never said that you were derailing the thread... Why are you always so hostile? Calm down please and why am I not allowed to comment here? I am a Tau player and this is a thread about the Riptide (which is a Tau unit) and I was adding the the discussion. If you want to make personal attacks at me, please do it through private messages so no one else has to put up with you.

Pozy you were moving the thread into a discussion of how the Dreadknight was also undercosted.

This thread WAS about advice but bobbito soundly trounced him it sounds like. Really the thread should be locked by a mod at this point with a youtube embed link to the Flight of the Conchords song.

But at this point it's about how to deal with massed Riptides, which once they hit 4+ they start tripping over themselves.

I was simply comparing the Riptide to the Dreadknight (and Wraithknight) as most of the hate is because of things that all have in common and T6 2+ is not unique to the Riptide.

May I ask why you're still here then if you believe this thread should be locked?

You deal with massed Riptides the same way as against massed Dreadknights; plasma spam. I don't understand people's difficulties fighting the Riptide as mine always dies by plasma bikers as they're fast, they take about two wounds off from shooting and then they charge them and either tie me up or kill me off.

2+ armour is pretty common, so use plasma to take Riptides out, just like you would against Terminators.

At 500 points or even 1000 points a scout company would rip appart that riptide list.

Poison and rending, combined with sniper fire to kill the marker lights.

 sfshilo wrote:
At 500 points or even 1000 points a scout company would rip appart that riptide list.

Poison and rending, combined with sniper fire to kill the marker lights.

Ah yes I'm sure, what sound logic

Its not like it takes 420 points worth of nothing but Scout Snipers that suck at killing even the worst infantry and can't do jack to vehicles to kill one Riptide. 35+ shots., that's how many you'll need to kill just one. And that doesn't even factor in 5+ invulnerable saves.

There's not plenty that can kill Riptides. People exaggerate that a lot. If there's plenty I wouldn't alternate between extremely similar lists all the time with many of the same units just because I'd autolose against Riptides without them.

Exaggeration goes both ways because Riptides are not these invincible killing machines that many of you make it out to be. never had issues with them when using my marines as there is quite a few sound strategies and weaponry that are great against them even in balanced lists.

 Rommel44 wrote:
Exaggeration goes both ways because Riptides are not these invincible killing machines that many of you make it out to be. never had issues with them when using my marines as there is quite a few sound strategies and weaponry that are great against them even in balanced lists.

Codex makes a huge difference in how easy it is to kill, not every one has access too "everything grav" like marines. Nids, as an example have a terrible time with them, one or 2 okay, but a quad tide list would be very hard.

SGTPozy wrote:

2+ armour is pretty common, so use plasma to take Riptides out, just like you would against Terminators.

But plasma is not necessary to kill Terminators. In fact, oftentimes it is pretty unnecessary. Termies die pretty easily to dakka, or simply under weight of CC attacks. Typically, my Deathwing army has like 3 termies left at the end of the game - including victorious games! This is against armies which in no way specialize in killing Termies.

 Rommel44 wrote:
Exaggeration goes both ways because Riptides are not these invincible killing machines that many of you make it out to be. never had issues with them when using my marines as there is quite a few sound strategies and weaponry that are great against them even in balanced lists.

Good for you.

Noone is claiming they're invincible, we're pointing out that they're way too hard to kill for how much they cost relative to their other abilities as well, and there's the fact that their existence is worth as much thought about as any kind of vehicle when writing a list, and they make lists more monotonous.

Exactly. Compare Riptide to an Ionhead: the situations where Ionhead would be better than Riptide are extremely rare, and against almost any kind of attacks, Riptide is much more durable than a tank, sometimes by an absurd amount (it's not very hard to kill or cripple a Hammerhead with Krak Missiles, try that against Riptide). Yet no logical explanation whatsoever exist why Riptide is so much more durable against attacks which would easily kill a tank.

Backfire wrote:
Exactly. Compare Riptide to an Ionhead: the situations where Ionhead would be better than Riptide are extremely rare, and against almost any kind of attacks, Riptide is much more durable than a tank, sometimes by an absurd amount (it's not very hard to kill or cripple a Hammerhead with Krak Missiles, try that against Riptide). Yet no logical explanation whatsoever exist why Riptide is so much more durable against attacks which would easily kill a tank.

Only that all Tanks in general are to fragile. Tanks should cost more and be a lot tougher but that is another thread.

How are you losing that many wounds to plasma. At 2/3 to hit * 2/3 to wound * 2/3 to not invuln * 2/3 to feel pain, that's 16 /81 or about 20% per shot of stripping a single wound. 25 shots is a lot of plasma fire.

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Rommel44 wrote:
Exaggeration goes both ways because Riptides are not these invincible killing machines that many of you make it out to be. never had issues with them when using my marines as there is quite a few sound strategies and weaponry that are great against them even in balanced lists.

Good for you.

Noone is claiming they're invincible, we're pointing out that they're way too hard to kill for how much they cost relative to their other abilities as well, and there's the fact that their existence is worth as much thought about as any kind of vehicle when writing a list, and they make lists more monotonous.

To call a Tau army monotonous for taking Riptides is like saying a Grey Knight army is monotonous for taking Dreadknights, Eldar for taking Wave Serpents, Tyranids for taking Flytyrants ect. and so forth. An argument can be made for every army taking a particular unit, the Tau are not the only ones who do so. And I cant remember where it was mentioned in this thread but the Riptide itself is not overpowered, I do believe that the fault lies with the Ion Accelerator. To have such a powerful weapon be only 5 points it is a no brainer for people to take it, increase the points cost to about 15-20 and it would be perfectly fine. Take into account the base Riptide especially when compared to its counterparts such as the Wraithkight and Dreadknight:

-The Riptide as a whole is 180pts. for a BS3 S6 T6 5 wound Monstrous Creature that counts as a "Jet Pack" unit. IThas a 2+ armor save and a 5+ invulnerable save, It does have the chance to improve its abilities but at a risk of hurting itself 1/3 of the time and does also have a random 2D6 move in the assault phase. It comes base with Night Visions and the Tau Support Fire rule.

-Dreadknight is 130pts. for a BS4 WS4 S6 T6 4 wound Monstrous Creature that has a 2+ armor save and a 5+ invulnerable save. It has access to psychic powers as it is a level 1 Psyker, the Aegis and preferred enemy Demons.

-The Wraithknight is 240pts. base for a BS4 WS4 S10 T8 8 wound Monstrous Creature that counts as a "jump" unit. Comes base with x2 S10 AP2 weapons that can instant kill anything on a wound roll of a 6, it is fearless and has ancient doom.

When compared to these guys the Riptide is not insanely crazy in the least. Granted that no one takes a standard Riptide, but then again no one ever takes a standard Dreadknight either (Wraithknight ive seen both) but at their base core points the Riptide is reasonable.

 Rommel44 wrote:


To call a Tau army monotonous for taking Riptides is like saying a Grey Knight army is monotonous for taking Dreadknights, Eldar for taking Wave Serpents, Tyranids for taking Flytyrants

If you're spamming riptides, dreadknights, wave serpents, flyrants or whatever common spammable unit, you ARE taking a monotonous list.

And than you compare a riptide to other poorly ballanced MC. Basically, your comment is: "Tran C'Tans are perfectly fine and ballanced when you compare them to other Tran C'Tans".

A unit can't really be considered without considering the upgrades available to it.

The major difference between a wave serpent and a devilfish is the serpent shield. See, those two things are totally the same and devilfish aren't OP. Clearly wave serpents are OK.

Tell your ork player that at 1000 points he can take a green tide and dakkjets tar pit those riptides

 Rommel44 wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 Rommel44 wrote:
Exaggeration goes both ways because Riptides are not these invincible killing machines that many of you make it out to be. never had issues with them when using my marines as there is quite a few sound strategies and weaponry that are great against them even in balanced lists.

Good for you.

Noone is claiming they're invincible, we're pointing out that they're way too hard to kill for how much they cost relative to their other abilities as well, and there's the fact that their existence is worth as much thought about as any kind of vehicle when writing a list, and they make lists more monotonous.

To call a Tau army monotonous for taking Riptides is like saying a Grey Knight army is monotonous for taking Dreadknights, Eldar for taking Wave Serpents, Tyranids for taking Flytyrants ect. and so forth. An argument can be made for every army taking a particular unit, the Tau are not the only ones who do so. And I cant remember where it was mentioned in this thread but the Riptide itself is not overpowered, I do believe that the fault lies with the Ion Accelerator. To have such a powerful weapon be only 5 points it is a no brainer for people to take it, increase the points cost to about 15-20 and it would be perfectly fine. Take into account the base Riptide especially when compared to its counterparts such as the Wraithkight and Dreadknight:

-The Riptide as a whole is 180pts. for a BS3 S6 T6 5 wound Monstrous Creature that counts as a "Jet Pack" unit. IThas a 2+ armor save and a 5+ invulnerable save, It does have the chance to improve its abilities but at a risk of hurting itself 1/3 of the time and does also have a random 2D6 move in the assault phase. It comes base with Night Visions and the Tau Support Fire rule.

-Dreadknight is 130pts. for a BS4 WS4 S6 T6 4 wound Monstrous Creature that has a 2+ armor save and a 5+ invulnerable save. It has access to psychic powers as it is a level 1 Psyker, the Aegis and preferred enemy Demons.

-The Wraithknight is 240pts. base for a BS4 WS4 S10 T8 8 wound Monstrous Creature that counts as a "jump" unit. Comes base with x2 S10 AP2 weapons that can instant kill anything on a wound roll of a 6, it is fearless and has ancient doom.

When compared to these guys the Riptide is not insanely crazy in the least. Granted that no one takes a standard Riptide, but then again no one ever takes a standard Dreadknight either (Wraithknight ive seen both) but at their base core points the Riptide is reasonable.

That's not what I meant at all, I was refering to lists playing against Riptides taking monotonous solutions because there's so few ways to go about it (and no, not even close to everyone or the majority takes anything they want from the Imperium line)/there are clear formats that are too much of a no brainer to fall into given Riptides, though your point is still weightless because "other armies do it to some extent as well" doesn't downplay the idea that it makes Tau lists more monotonous at all. And an IA Riptide at 195 would barely make any difference at all. The IA should cost more like 25-30 points or have its range reduced to 36'' at 15-20 pts.

The DK needs to get in spitting range to be work, the Riptide can do what it does best at 72'' away. The DK also needs the teleporter to even get to the enemy within a decent amount of time, and can die quickly up close to short range AP2. The Wraithknight has two guns which are mediocre anti-tank and alright anti-MC. It has no invulnerable with two wraithcannons and high strength AP3 ruins it.