I love the new formations but I have one question about the most popular formation Skytyrant Swarm.
In the rules it states that the Winged Hive Tyrant cannot swoop during the battle, only glide, so as to stay in unit coherency with the Gargoyle broods. Both the Hive Tyrant and Gargoyles separately can arrive by Deep Strike but can they arrive by Deep Strike if using the formation? The reason I ask is because Flying Monstrous creatures when arriving by strike are considered to be swooping so when they arrive they can only be snapped shot in the first turn it arrives in. This doesn't mean the Tyranid player voluntarily uses the swooping ability and will of course only use the Hive Tyrant as a jump Monstrous creature during every and any movement phase in order to abide by the formation rules, only that when the formation Deep Strikes in the beginning it's considered to have arrived swooping but of course goes straight to gliding. As per Deep Strike rules no "movement" is allowed so technically the Hive Tyrant hasn't made a swooping movement in the battle on the table top at any part of the game.
I would appreciate it if you could confirm this. I know this will become a common FAQ as the interpretation is a bit fuzzy.
Eihnlazer wrote: if they would deep strike, they would have to do it together since they are one unit.
So really, the only issue here is whether you believe or not a hive tyrant can deep strike.
That's what I assume, and yes the Hive Tyrant can naturally deep strike due to being a fly Monstrous creature/jump Monstrous creature giving the deep strike ability.
Eihnlazer wrote: if they would deep strike, they would have to do it together since they are one unit.
So really, the only issue here is whether you believe or not a hive tyrant can deep strike.
That is a lesser question really. The FMC would arrive Swooping iirc, which it cannot do being in that formation.
That's partially correct as its considered to have swooped in before battle and landing stationary (gliding) as it is able to charge the next turn after deep striking which highlights the change of flight mode from swooping to gliding, which is considered to be in gliding mode on that first turn of deep striking. As per changing flight modes for flying Monstrous creatures you have to glide first for one turn in order to be able to charge in the next following turn and since from deep striking a flying Monstrous creature and then it being able to charge in its 2nd turn it's assumed that it wasn't swooping in the previous turn i.e. the first turn it arrived by Deep Strike, making it adhering to the unit's coherency with the Gargoyles.
Right?
Eihnlazer wrote: if they would deep strike, they would have to do it together since they are one unit.
So really, the only issue here is whether you believe or not a hive tyrant can deep strike.
That's what I assume, and yes the Hive Tyrant can naturally deep strike due to being a fly Monstrous creature/jump Monstrous creature giving the deep strike ability.
Flyrant is a Flying Monstrous Creature. Whether or not it can Deep Strike is debatable.
Mostly it boils down to:
a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).
For definitive RAW, we would need the exact wording for the formation, since if the formation says that it can only glide for the game, that also mean it would also be gliding in reserves as well..
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).
The rule book, as suggested before, does specifically mention that FMCs can arrive via Deep Strike Reserve, in which case it always arrives in Swooping mode, p68. That seems like definitive permission - it's certainly more specific than the 6E rulebook, and I wonder if some of the debate is a hangover from then.
For the same reason, it's hard to see how it can Glide when arriving on the board via Deep Strike, altho I too would like to see definitive wording from the Leviathan book.
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).
The rule book, as suggested before, does specifically mention that FMCs can arrive via Deep Strike Reserve, in which case it always arrives in Swooping mode, p68. That seems like definitive permission - it's certainly more specific than the 6E rulebook, and I wonder if some of the debate is a hangover from then.
For the same reason, it's hard to see how it can Glide when arriving on the board via Deep Strike, altho I too would like to see definitive wording from the Leviathan book.
Oops here is the correct image with the exact wording, have to zoom in a bit.
Thank you for answering the other comment by quoting the rule book about FMC Deep Striking, saves me the time.
And to answer your comment it arrives on deep strike FROM swooping, doesn't say it is swooping. It just retains the snap fire status on the first turn it arrives because how else could a FMC be able to charge on the 2nd turn if it's considered to be swooping on the 1st turn. If that view of it being swooping on the first turn then it wouldn't be able to charge till its 3rd turn which is absolutely ridiculous. We have seen so many battle reports from players and in the white dwarf of FMC arriving by Deep Strike and waiting till the 2nd turn to charge.
With the above in mind it does comply with the rules for the Hive Tyrant to be in coherency with the Gargoyles in the formation.
Wish we had a ruling from GW or the Black Library lol
I think this falls into the "more specific rules trump more general rules" category. FMCs can deepstrike, it says so in their rules. It also says that all FMCs must swoop when DSing. But, it then says that the Skytyrant must glide. This applies only to the Skytrant (so is more specific) than the must Swoop for all FMCs (which is more general)
So, I would say that the unit can deepstrike, and the Flyrant will be gliding, but I also think it's a very bad idea to deepstrike them unless it's some bizarre scenario I can't think of at the moment.
grendel083 wrote: If FMC's can Deep Strike or not isn't really an issue. There's no way to Deep Strike it without breaking a rule.
Deep Striking means it comes on Swooping. Formation prevents Swooping.
Nothing in this formation overrides this. It can't be done.
Instead of throwing up our hands in desperation I suggest we follow the applicable rule.
Spoiler:
Basic Versus Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.
So their flying mode is Gliding once they have Deep Struck in. The rules allow this.
col_impact wrote: So their flying mode is Gliding once they have Deep Struck in. The rules allow this.
No they don't. If the Flyrant Deep Strikes (assuming it can, but I'm not re-starting that debacle again), it arrives Swooping. The Flyrant cannot Swoop. Therefore it cannot Deep Strike. If the Formation said the unit must arrive by Deep Strike, then it would be allowed.
col_impact wrote: So their flying mode is Gliding once they have Deep Struck in. The rules allow this.
No they don't. If the Flyrant Deep Strikes (assuming it can, but I'm not re-starting that debacle again), it arrives Swooping. The Flyrant cannot Swoop. Therefore it cannot Deep Strike. If the Formation said the unit must arrive by Deep Strike, then it would be allowed.
Let's change your answer to one that would actually follow from the Basic Versus Advanced Rule. You use that rule to resolve contradictions, not add restrictions that are not there.
If the Flyrant Deep Strikes (assuming it can, but I'm not re-starting that debacle again), it arrives Swooping. The Flyrant cannot Swoop. Therefore it Glides.
col_impact wrote: So their flying mode is Gliding once they have Deep Struck in. The rules allow this.
No they don't. If the Flyrant Deep Strikes (assuming it can, but I'm not re-starting that debacle again), it arrives Swooping. The Flyrant cannot Swoop. Therefore it cannot Deep Strike. If the Formation said the unit must arrive by Deep Strike, then it would be allowed.
Let's change your answer to one that would actually follow from the Basic Versus Advanced Rule. You use that rule to resolve contradictions, not add restrictions that are not there.
If the Flyrant Deep Strikes (assuming it can, but I'm not re-starting that debacle again), it arrives Swooping. The Flyrant cannot Swoop. Therefore it Glides.
Please show permission to arrive by Deep Strike while Gliding. Skytyrant does not grant permission to arrive by Deep Strike Gliding.
col_impact wrote: So their flying mode is Gliding once they have Deep Struck in. The rules allow this.
No they don't. If the Flyrant Deep Strikes (assuming it can, but I'm not re-starting that debacle again), it arrives Swooping. The Flyrant cannot Swoop. Therefore it cannot Deep Strike. If the Formation said the unit must arrive by Deep Strike, then it would be allowed.
Let's change your answer to one that would actually follow from the Basic Versus Advanced Rule. You use that rule to resolve contradictions, not add restrictions that are not there.
If the Flyrant Deep Strikes (assuming it can, but I'm not re-starting that debacle again), it arrives Swooping. The Flyrant cannot Swoop. Therefore it Glides.
Please show permission to arrive by Deep Strike while Gliding. Skytyrant does not grant permission to arrive by Deep Strike Gliding.
Per rules, the FMC always has Deep Strike.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
Indeed the FMC is described as 'moving like Jump unit' so indeed it has the Deep Strike rule granted.
The basic versus advanced rule sets the mode to Gliding.
First, we have no idea whether or not FMCs have Deep Strike standard. Some say yes, some say no. So putting that forth as 100% undeniable RAW is a bit misleading. At least until an FAQ comes out.
Second, you still need to show specific permission to override the requirement to come in Swooping.
If a model cannot Run but has an ability that requires it to Run, can it use the ability? This is the same thing - the model cannot Swoop, but (presumably) has an ability that requires Swooping.
col_impact wrote: So their flying mode is Gliding once they have Deep Struck in. The rules allow this.
No they don't. If the Flyrant Deep Strikes (assuming it can, but I'm not re-starting that debacle again), it arrives Swooping. The Flyrant cannot Swoop. Therefore it cannot Deep Strike. If the Formation said the unit must arrive by Deep Strike, then it would be allowed.
Not wanting to rewrite again please read the below copy and paste comment of an earlier comment:
And to answer your comment it arrives on deep strike FROM swooping, doesn't say it is swooping. It just retains the snap fire status on the first turn it arrives because how else could a FMC be able to charge on the 2nd turn if it's considered to be swooping on the 1st turn. If that view of it being swooping on the first turn then it wouldn't be able to charge till its 3rd turn which is absolutely ridiculous. We have seen so many battle reports from players and in the white dwarf of FMC arriving by Deep Strike and waiting till the 2nd turn to charge.
Therefore Deep Striking FMC are not considered to have moved in their first turn arriving as swooping. How else can they charge on their 2nd turn. Please address this point and not just over look it.
As per other comments I do concur that the Hive Tyrant can arrive by Deep Strike landing in coherency with the Gargoyles on their first turn. Just because they are in a formation during a battle doesn't mean they are in the same formation unit 24/7. Hive Tyrant just arrives into battle from swooping but lands as if gliding to be in coherency.
Happyjew wrote: First, we have no idea whether or not FMCs have Deep Strike standard. Some say yes, some say no. So putting that forth as 100% undeniable RAW is a bit misleading. At least until an FAQ comes out.
Second, you still need to show specific permission to override the requirement to come in Swooping.
If a model cannot Run but has an ability that requires it to Run, can it use the ability? This is the same thing - the model cannot Swoop, but (presumably) has an ability that requires Swooping.
Deep Strike is always on the FMC. It deep strikes in. Basic versus advanced just sorts what mode the flyrant is in.
Happyjew wrote: First, we have no idea whether or not FMCs have Deep Strike standard. Some say yes, some say no. So putting that forth as 100% undeniable RAW is a bit misleading. At least until an FAQ comes out.
Second, you still need to show specific permission to override the requirement to come in Swooping.
If a model cannot Run but has an ability that requires it to Run, can it use the ability? This is the same thing - the model cannot Swoop, but (presumably) has an ability that requires Swooping.
Deep Strike is always on the FMC. It deep strikes in.
Col_Impact. That thread just got locked, lets not restart it.
Happyjew wrote: First, we have no idea whether or not FMCs have Deep Strike standard. Some say yes, some say no. So putting that forth as 100% undeniable RAW is a bit misleading. At least until an FAQ comes out.
Second, you still need to show specific permission to override the requirement to come in Swooping.
If a model cannot Run but has an ability that requires it to Run, can it use the ability? This is the same thing - the model cannot Swoop, but (presumably) has an ability that requires Swooping.
Deep Strike is always on the FMC. It deep strikes in.
Col_Impact. That thread just got locked, lets not restart it.
There is a restriction that the Tyrant cannot be Swooping. If the Tyrant DS's, then it is Swooping. Therefore the Tyrant cannot DS, because it would violate the Formations rule.
There is a restriction that the Tyrant cannot be Swooping. If the Tyrant DS's, then it is Swooping. Therefore the Tyrant cannot DS, because it would violate the Formations rule.
So whether TFMC's can DS is irrelevant.
The BRB sets the mode to swooping. The codex sets the mode to gliding. Advanced overrides basic. Deep Strike is on the FMC. The FMC Deep Strikes in. Where's the hold up?
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
This rule can't take hold until after the FMC actually arrives via Deep Strike. At that point it gets hammered by the Formation rule.
col_impact wrote: The codex sets the mode to gliding. Advanced overrides basic. Deep Strike is on the FMC. The FMC Deep Strikes in. Where's the hold up?
Because the codex does not set the Deep Strike mode to gliding. The Deep Strike mode is still Swooping, which the FMC is no longer permitted to use.
col_impact wrote: The codex sets the mode to gliding. Advanced overrides basic. Deep Strike is on the FMC. The FMC Deep Strikes in. Where's the hold up?
Because the codex does not set the Deep Strike mode to gliding. The Deep Strike mode is still Swooping, which the FMC is no longer permitted to use.
Deep Strike USR is ALWAYS on the FMC having been granted it by the rule.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
I check to see whether the unit is described as moving like jump and indeed it is described as moving like jump. Deep Strike is granted since the description 'moving like jump' is on the FMC entry.
Whether Swooping or Gliding or on a Tuesday or on a boat, the FMC has Deep Strike.
col_impact wrote: The codex sets the mode to gliding. Advanced overrides basic. Deep Strike is on the FMC. The FMC Deep Strikes in. Where's the hold up?
Because the codex does not set the Deep Strike mode to gliding. The Deep Strike mode is still Swooping, which the FMC is no longer permitted to use.
Deep Strike USR is ALWAYS on the FMC having been granted it by the rule.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
I check to see whether the unit is described as moving like jump and indeed it is described as moving like jump. Deep Strike is granted since the description 'moving like jump' is on the FMC entry.
Whether Swooping or Gliding or on a Tuesday or on a boat, the FMC has Deep Strike.
Why are you still on the DS rule. Your obviously not reading the arguments. The Tyrant DS's in Swoop mode. That is a violation of the MF rule. Your making up the whole "codex changes its flight mode" part of the rule.
col_impact. If you want to start that argument back up, please create a new thread. The premise behind this thread is based on the assumption an FMC can Deep Strike to begin with.
As such, there is nothing in the formation that overrides the FMC arrives Swooping, and as such would not be able to DS.
Ghaz wrote: And that doesn't stop something that will forbid you from using it.
Nothing is forbidding it from Deep Striking in. The Deep Strike USR is ALWAYS granted.
The fact that that the FMC can't use Swooping mode is what is keeping it from Deep Striking. Just because you have a USR doesn't mean that some other situation won't allow it's use. Can a Space Marine use the bolter he ALWAYS has if all of the enemy models are out of range? By the logic your using, the answer would be yes.
Ghaz wrote: And that doesn't stop something that will forbid you from using it.
Nothing is forbidding it from Deep Striking in. The Deep Strike USR is ALWAYS granted.
The fact that that the FMC can't use Swooping mode is what is keeping it from Deep Striking. Just because you have a USR doesn't mean that some other situation won't allow it's use. Can a Space Marine use the bolter he ALWAYS has if all of the enemy models are out of range? By the logic your using, the answer would be yes.
This rule doesn't actually prevent Deep Strike
Spoiler:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
Deep Strike happens. In fact it has to have happened before the above rule could be called. Mode set to swoop. Formation sets mode to glide.
Fragile wrote: Show where the MF rules sets your Movement mode to Glide.
The Hive Tyrant cannot leave the unit during the battle, and can only use Gliding flight mode.
Nothing in that rule says it sets your movement to anything. Your making that part up.
Show where a FMC can DS in Glide mode and you might have an argument. Otherwise you have nothing.
Fair enough. The MF rule does not set the movement mode to Glide. I don't have a physical copy before me so I overlooked that bit.
However, the MF says that it can only use the Glide mode. Deep Strike is on the FMC entry. The Flyrant Deep Strikes in and is technically in Swooping mode but technically cannot use it.
You would have to show that the FMC needs to use the Swoop mode to Deep Strike which is not restricted from happening all on its own. Deep Strike does not depend on Swooping.
I don't play Nids, but I have to say that I agree with col_impact on this one. "Counts as" is not exactly the same thing as "is".
The rules in the BRB say, "If a flying monstrous creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a flying monstrous creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves, it always counts as being in Swooping mode," even if you declared it to be in gliding mode.
Sequence: 1) the formation arrives via deep strike reserves 2) nids player declares that his FMC is in gliding mode to follow the restrictions of the formation 3) the FMCcounts as being in swooping mode.
No rules are broken. The formation has arrived via deepstrike, the FMC is moving via gliding as is the prerogative of the player per the BRB section on FMCs, AND the FMCcounts as being in swooping mode because it used deep strike.
However, the MF says that it can only use the Glide mode. Deep Strike is on the FMC entry. The Flyrant Deep Strikes in and is technically in Swooping mode but technically cannot use it.
Please explain using rules in the FMC section how you are Swooping but "dont" use it. MF states you can only use Gliding. Since you cannot use Gliding when you DS, you have violated that rule.
You would have to show that the FMC needs to use the Swoop mode to Deep Strike which is not restricted from happening all on its own. Deep Strike does not depend on Swooping.
This is an irrelevant point that you continue to try to address. It has nothing to do with the argument. You have to show how you can DS onto the board in Glide mode, which you cannot.
I don't play Nids, but I have to say that I agree with col_impact on this one. "Counts as" is not exactly the same thing as "is".
This is disproven many ways. Counts as = Is, or many rules break.
The formation has arrived via deepstrike, the FMC is moving via gliding as is the prerogative of the player per the BRB section on FMCs, AND the FMC counts as being in swooping mode because it used deep strike.
You truly have no clue on how FMCs move. Please show me how you can be in both Glide and Swoop mode at the same time, using the rules.
You truly have no clue on how FMCs move. Please show me how you can be in both Glide and Swoop mode at the same time, using the rules.
If you look at how the rules on FMCs is worded, it doesn't say that they have to be in swooping mode to deep strike. It says that the nid player gets to choose which mode they are in when they arrive, and that if they arrive by deep strike, they count as sooping. It doesn't say that they are swooping.
While I agree with the overall concept of "Count as does not equal is," for all Rule Interaction purposes it might as well be.
It is true that Count as Clauses exist to allow something other then X to gain access to X related Rules, but that doesn't mean that that Rules resolve as if it is both X and Y. As far as the Rules are concerned, for the duration of that Count As Clause every single one treats the subject matter as if it was X all along. If the any single Rule does not resolve as if the subject matter was X, then either the Count as Clause or the Rule in question has been broken and the entire action is illegal.
In this situation it leads to a Model is Restricted to Gliding but as far as the Rules are concerned it is Swooping.... This is clearly an illegal outcome.
However, the MF says that it can only use the Glide mode. Deep Strike is on the FMC entry. The Flyrant Deep Strikes in and is technically in Swooping mode but technically cannot use it.
Please explain using rules in the FMC section how you are Swooping but "dont" use it. MF states you can only use Gliding. Since you cannot use Gliding when you DS, you have violated that rule.
You would have to show that the FMC needs to use the Swoop mode to Deep Strike which is not restricted from happening all on its own. Deep Strike does not depend on Swooping.
This is an irrelevant point that you continue to try to address. It has nothing to do with the argument. You have to show how you can DS onto the board in Glide mode, which you cannot.
You don't Deep Strike onto the board using Swoop or Glide mode you just use the rule. It's the rule itself which accomplishes the Deep Strike. The FMC rules then tell you what mode you happen to be in once you have indeed Deep Struck onto the board.
Show me in the rules where Deep Strike depends on Swooping. Deep Strike is always granted to the FMC per the rules.
Spoiler:
DEEP STRIKE
Some units make their way to battle via tunnelling, teleportation, flying, or some other
extraordinary means which allows them to appear in the thick of the fighting.
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep
Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in
Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes
called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin
the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and
then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you
would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a
vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must
continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be
placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When
the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model
touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.
• Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any
further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.
Units Deep Striking into ruins are placed on the ground floor. Deep Striking units count
non-ruined buildings (except for their battlements) as impassable terrain.
In that turn’s Shooting phase, these units can fire (or Run, Turbo-boost or move Flat Out)
as normal, and count as having moved in the previous Movement phase. Vehicles, except
for Walkers, count as having moved at Combat Speed (even Immobilised vehicles). This
can affect the number of weapons they can fire with their full Ballistic Skill.
In that turn’s Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge. This also applies to
units that have disembarked from Transports that arrived by Deep Strike that turn.
It seems what is at stake is not whether the Flyrant can Deep Strike (that's already happened) but whether or not it can Jink.
Everyone please address the simple issue that a FMC Deep Strikes and then on it's 2nd turn can charge, right?
If so then it wasn't swooping in its first turn when it arrived from deep strike and couldn't move, only shoot or run, right? And in its 2nd turn could charge.
Therefore first turn was gliding and not swooping, right?
JinxDragon wrote: While I agree with the overall concept of "Count as does not equal is," for all Rule Interaction purposes it might as well be.
It is true that Count as Clauses exist to allow something other then X to gain access to X related Rules, but that doesn't mean that that Rules resolve as if it is both X and Y. As far as the Rules are concerned, for the duration of that Count As Clause every single one treats the subject matter as if it was X all along. If the any single Rule does not resolve as if the subject matter was X, then either the Count as Clause or the Rule in question has been broken and the entire action is illegal.
In this situation it leads to a Model is Restricted to Gliding but as far as the Rules are concerned it is Swooping....
This is clearly an illegal outcome.
You are not applying the rules as they are. Deep strike happens. At stake is what mode it is in or the mode it can use from that point on. It may indeed only have access to Monstrous Creature rules after it has deep struck in.
Nid Bits wrote: Everyone please address the simple issue that a FMC Deep Strikes and then on it's 2nd turn can charge, right?
If so then it wasn't swooping in its first turn when it arrived from deep strike and couldn't move, only shoot or run, right? And in its 2nd turn could charge.
Therefore first turn was gliding and not swooping, right?
No, it cannot.
Arriving Turn ("Turn 1"): FMC Deep Strikes in the Movement phase, counts as being in Swooping mode. FMC cannot charge due to arriving from Reserves, arriving by Deep Strike, and being in Swoop mode.
Turn 2 : FMC switches to Glide mode. FMC cannot charge due to switching Flight modes.
Turn 3: FMC can charge.
If a flying monstrous creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves, it always counts as being in Swooping mode
It is applied. The FMC Deep Strikes in. It counts as always being in Swooping mode. It can only use Gliding mode.
A question for you. What specifically keeps the Deep Strike from happening?
The fact that the FMC can only use Gliding mode, yet it must count as being in Swooping mode, the conflict makes the DS impossible since the FMC can not be in Swooping mode.
So it cant do anything that forces it into Swooping mode, which DS does.
If a flying monstrous creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves, it always counts as being in Swooping mode
It is applied. The FMC Deep Strikes in. It counts as always being in Swooping mode. It can only use Gliding mode.
A question for you. What specifically keeps the Deep Strike from happening?
The fact that the FMC can only use Gliding mode, yet it must count as being in Swooping mode, the conflict makes the DS impossible since the FMC can not be in Swooping mode.
So it cant do anything that forces it into Swooping mode, which DS does.
Deep Strike is ALWAYS in effect per this rule.
Spoiler:
Units that are described as ‘moving like’ Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules.
So after the Deep Strike happens, if there is a contradiction, you resolve it with Basic versus Advanced rule, which is per the rules. There is no contradiction until after the Deep Strike has happened.
No it's not. Just because you have the rule doesn't mean that some other rule can prevent you from using it. Please provide a rule that allows your FMC to Deep Strike when he can't be in Swooping mode when Deep Striking means you count as being in Swooping mode.
Ghaz wrote: No it's not. Just because you have the rule doesn't mean that some other rule can prevent you from using it. Please provide a rule that allows your FMC to Deep Strike when he can't be in Swooping mode when Deep Striking means you count as being in Swooping mode.
If a flying monstrous creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves, it always counts as being in Swooping mode
This rule doesn't actually prevent the Deep Strike. It only leaves open the question of what mode the FMC is in after the Deep Strike.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fragile wrote: You are not permitted to Deep Strike because it would require you to use the Swooping Flight Mode, which you have no permission to do because of MF.
You either walk on from the board edge or start deployed.
Look at the Deep Strike rules and point out what part depends on Swoop.
Ghaz wrote: No it's not. Just because you have the rule doesn't mean that some other rule can prevent you from using it. Please provide a rule that allows your FMC to Deep Strike when he can't be in Swooping mode when Deep Striking means you count as being in Swooping mode.
If a flying monstrous creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves, it always counts as being in Swooping mode
This rule doesn't actually prevent the Deep Strike. It only leaves open the question of what mode the FMC is in after the Deep Strike.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fragile wrote: You are not permitted to Deep Strike because it would require you to use the Swooping Flight Mode, which you have no permission to do because of MF.
You either walk on from the board edge or start deployed.
Look at the Deep Strike rules and point out what part depends on Swoop.
I think your trolling now. You repeatedly refer back to asking for Deep Strike to depend on Swoop. You refuse to address to issue.
Ghaz wrote: No it's not. Just because you have the rule doesn't mean that some other rule can prevent you from using it. Please provide a rule that allows your FMC to Deep Strike when he can't be in Swooping mode when Deep Striking means you count as being in Swooping mode.
If a flying monstrous creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves, it always counts as being in Swooping mode
This rule doesn't actually prevent the Deep Strike. It only leaves open the question of what mode the FMC is in after the Deep Strike.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fragile wrote: You are not permitted to Deep Strike because it would require you to use the Swooping Flight Mode, which you have no permission to do because of MF.
You either walk on from the board edge or start deployed.
Look at the Deep Strike rules and point out what part depends on Swoop.
I think your trolling now. You repeatedly refer back to asking for Deep Strike to depend on Swoop. You refuse to address to issue.
You are saying that Deep Strike requires swooping mode. It does not. Deep Strike is granted AT ALL TIMES via the rule I quoted above.
We are having a disconnect here because you think the FMC accesses DS through Swoop or Glide. It does not.
Ghaz wrote: No it's not. Just because you have the rule doesn't mean that some other rule can prevent you from using it. Please provide a rule that allows your FMC to Deep Strike when he can't be in Swooping mode when Deep Striking means you count as being in Swooping mode.
If a flying monstrous creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves, it always counts as being in Swooping mode
This rule doesn't actually prevent the Deep Strike. It only leaves open the question of what mode the FMC is in after the Deep Strike.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fragile wrote: You are not permitted to Deep Strike because it would require you to use the Swooping Flight Mode, which you have no permission to do because of MF.
You either walk on from the board edge or start deployed.
Look at the Deep Strike rules and point out what part depends on Swoop.
I think your trolling now. You repeatedly refer back to asking for Deep Strike to depend on Swoop. You refuse to address to issue.
You are saying that Deep Strike requires swooping mode. It does not. Deep Strike is granted AT ALL TIMES via the rule I quoted above.
We are having a disconnect here because you think the FMC accesses DS through Swoop or Glide. It does not.
FMCs can Deep Strike because they move like Jump Infantry, therefore they gain that USR.
Your disconnect is failing to realize that Deep Striking places the FMC into Swoop Mode(quoted above). This is forbidden by the Monstrous Flock rule. You cannot use Swoop with your Hive Tyrant. Your trying to claim that you can be in both Swoop and Glide Mode at the same time, or some other mode, which is false.
Col_Impact, The problem is not Deep Striking, it is what occurs with this particular Model when it hit the table. It is forbidden from being in a Swooping state and there is no details informing us that this Restriction is only checked at specific times, so it is an on-going Restriction that has to always be obeyed. Upon Deep Striking this Rule will encounter the 'Counts as Swooping' Clause, and be forced to count the Model as Swooping for the purposes of this Restriction. Any action which puts it in a non-swooping state is in violation of this Restriction, and therefore illegal.
JinxDragon wrote: Col_Impact,
The problem is not Deep Striking, it is what occurs with this particular Model when it hit the table. It is forbidden from being in a Swooping state and there is no details informing us that this Restriction is only checked at specific times, so it is an on-going Restriction that has to always be obeyed. Upon Deep Striking this Rule will encounter the 'Counts as Swooping' Clause, and be forced to count the Model as Swooping for the purposes of this Restriction. Any action which puts it in a non-swooping state is in violation of this Restriction, and therefore illegal.
Nope. The rules provide for these occurences.
Spoiler:
Basic Versus Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.
Fragile wrote: Basic rule. FMCs can Deepstriking onto the board using Swooping.
Advanced. Monstrous Flock FMCs cannot Deepstrike since they cannot be put into Swooping.
You have shown no permission to change from Swoop to Glide using the MF rule. Nothing in the MF rule grants that.
This. You're making an assumption that since Swooping is disallowed that any requirements to Swoop must be changed to Glide.
There's nothing allowing that, however. The right way to read the rules is that anything that requires Swooping is disallowed.
Col_impact, There are several reasons as to why you are misapplying Advanced Vs Basic
Let us address what you are trying to over-write using this Rule: A Codex Specific Restriction. Even if Basic Vs Advanced triggered in every situation where a Restriction occurs, I will address that point next, it specifically mentions that the Codex Rule takes precedence. It does not grant permission to re-write any of the rules creating the conflict to remove sections that cause problems, it grants us permission to completely over-write one of the two Rules entirely. Applying this Rule would require the 'more basic' Rule to be discarded and ignored entirely, we would have to follow the alternative instructions in the more advanced Rule to proceed.
In this situation we would have to drop the Deep Strike Special Rule, as we would need to ensure the Codex Restriction remains.
The other major point is that this Rule does not come into play unless there is a direct conflict between two Rules. This Rule can not be evoked every time a restriction prevents us from doing something, which is how you are defining a Conflict at the moment, as it was designed for those situations where we have two sets of instructions and no way of knowing which one is to be obeyed and which one is to be ignored. These conflicts are created because the two or more Rules in question directly relate to a single subject matter, but require us to do different things to that subject matter. If the two Rules relate to completely different things, they do not have the ability to create the sort of conflicts with each other that are resolved through Advanced Vs Basic.
There are many Rule Interactions where permission to do Xa has been granted, but Restriction Xb still renders the entire action of X illegal simply because Xb is not Xa.
JinxDragon wrote: Col_Impact,
The problem is not Deep Striking, it is what occurs with this particular Model when it hit the table. It is forbidden from being in a Swooping state and there is no details informing us that this Restriction is only checked at specific times, so it is an on-going Restriction that has to always be obeyed. Upon Deep Striking this Rule will encounter the 'Counts as Swooping' Clause, and be forced to count the Model as Swooping for the purposes of this Restriction. Any action which puts it in a non-swooping state is in violation of this Restriction, and therefore illegal.
I've really got to agree with col_Impact on this one. Just because swoop is a result of deep-striking doesn't prevent you from deep-striking, via basic vs advanced.
If you have a unit with Moves Through Cover that's attempting to charge at another unit through cover, are you going to disallow them declaring a charge? Per the rules they are mandated to roll dice in a specific way due to the intervening cover, but Move Through Cover prevents them from rolling in that way - by your logic, as they are not allowed to perform that step, they are not allowed to declare a charge at all.
Similarly, can you actually shoot an Ork unit over 10 strong from the Waaaagh! Ghazkull supplement? Per the basic rules, should you inflict over 25% casualties and force a moral check, which if failed causes the unit to fall back. However an Ork unit over 10 strong (with a boss) from Waaaagh! Ghazkull will never fall back - can you not shoot them at all due to that prevention? Can't even -harm- fearless units by that criteria.
Deepstrike goes off without a hitch, Swooping is not relevant to that. Once deepstrike is through, you attempt to put the model into Swoop mode. You cannot, per the advanced rule in the formation. If models with Move Through Cover can charge through cover can charge, Ghazzkul's ork hordes can be shot at, and models with Fearless can be hurt at all, then there's nothing wrong with deepstriking in this instance.
Morganfreeman, That example does not make sense at all, because none of those actions are being Restricted.
Nothing prevents a Unit from Charging through Cover to begin with. To bring it more in line with the Deep Strike situation being discussed, it would be more akin to a restriction of 'this Unit can not Charge through Terrain' being over-turned by a Rule changing how far the Unit charges. Even if it is a Codex Specific Rule allowing the unit to charge up to 18 inches instead of 12, it still does not get to over-turn a Restriction stating that the Unit will not be able to charge through that particular piece of terrain.
Or to use your ork example: Would you require such a Unit to take a Moral Test to simply because I have a Codex Rule stating Moral Tests are to be made with a 3d6?
JinxDragon wrote: Morganfreeman,
That example does not make sense as nothing Restricts Charging through Cover to begin with... even a Unit without Move through Cover is legally able to declare that charge.
This would be more akin to a Unit possessing a restriction of 'this Unit can not Charge through Terrain' before pointing to an Rule which allows to Charge 3d6 though terrain as permission to over-turn this Restriction....
The issue here is that a part of the "rule" (if you deepstrike as a FMC, you must swoop) cannot be fulfilled due to an advanced rule.
If you declare a charge through cover, the way in which you roll your dice is different than a normal charge (I can't remember off the top of my head, oddly enough). Per "Moves through cover", you cannot compute with the mandate of the basic rule that you do something different than roll two d6 and add the result. Via basic or advanced, this is fine. Via your logic, this is not fine - because it's a fundamental part of charging through cover. You cannot charge at all with the unit, because that unit would simply roll a normal 2d6 instead of the specific way the rules tell you to in this case.
It's an ugly example, no argument, but it's absolutely relevant.
a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).
I am arguing from A since that is what is RAW. They always have Deep Strike and it is not accessed through Swooping or Gliding. The Swooping vs Gliding mode gets resolved via Basic v. Advanced after Deep Strike.
If you are arguing from B why are you even engaging in a debate at all? Per B a Deep Strike can't happen for you anyway.
The real debate is then for those that are arguing from B perspective is over A vs B.
A vs B is the real argument. Otherwise we aren't even working from the same premises and will be disconnected in our discussions.
JinxDragon wrote: Col_Impact,
The problem is not Deep Striking, it is what occurs with this particular Model when it hit the table. It is forbidden from being in a Swooping state and there is no details informing us that this Restriction is only checked at specific times, so it is an on-going Restriction that has to always be obeyed. Upon Deep Striking this Rule will encounter the 'Counts as Swooping' Clause, and be forced to count the Model as Swooping for the purposes of this Restriction. Any action which puts it in a non-swooping state is in violation of this Restriction, and therefore illegal.
I've really got to agree with col_Impact on this one. Just because swoop is a result of deep-striking doesn't prevent you from deep-striking, via basic vs advanced.
If you have a unit with Moves Through Cover that's attempting to charge at another unit through cover, are you going to disallow them declaring a charge? Per the rules they are mandated to roll dice in a specific way due to the intervening cover, but Move Through Cover prevents them from rolling in that way - by your logic, as they are not allowed to perform that step, they are not allowed to declare a charge at all.
Similarly, can you actually shoot an Ork unit over 10 strong from the Waaaagh! Ghazkull supplement? Per the basic rules, should you inflict over 25% casualties and force a moral check, which if failed causes the unit to fall back. However an Ork unit over 10 strong (with a boss) from Waaaagh! Ghazkull will never fall back - can you not shoot them at all due to that prevention? Can't even -harm- fearless units by that criteria.
Both of those situations have rules to resolve them.
Cite a single rule that handles resolving one rule that requires you end up Swooping and another that restricts you from Swooping.
Deepstrike goes off without a hitch, Swooping is not relevant to that. Once deepstrike is through, you attempt to put the model into Swoop mode. You cannot, per the advanced rule in the formation. If models with Move Through Cover can charge through cover can charge, Ghazzkul's ork hordes can be shot at, and models with Fearless can be hurt at all, then there's nothing wrong with deepstriking in this instance.
Except, of course, the fact that you literally can't Swoop and you have no permission to Glide out of Deep Strike (aside from assumptions and made up rules). There are rules to handle Fearless, Ghaz hordes, and Move Through Cover.
a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).
I am arguing from A since that is what is RAW. They always have Deep Strike and it is not accessed through Swooping or Gliding. The Swooping vs Gliding mode gets resolved via Basic v. Advanced after Deep Strike.
If you are arguing from B why are you even engaging in a debate at all? Per B a Deep Strike can't happen for you anyway.
The real debate is then for those that are arguing from B perspective is over A vs B.
A vs B is the real argument. Otherwise we aren't even working from the same premises and will be disconnected in our discussions.
Neither. No one is arguing the ability of a FMC to Deep strike in general. Please actually read the thread.
a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).
I am arguing from A since that is what is RAW. They always have Deep Strike and it is not accessed through Swooping or Gliding. The Swooping vs Gliding mode gets resolved via Basic v. Advanced after Deep Strike.
If you are arguing from B why are you even engaging in a debate at all? Per B a Deep Strike can't happen for you anyway.
The real debate is then for those that are arguing from B perspective is over A vs B.
A vs B is the real argument. Otherwise we aren't even working from the same premises and will be disconnected in our discussions.
Your trying to argue the point of the locked thread. Neither of those have anything to do with the Rule at hand. Please argue the point and not lock this thread over a rehash of those two points.
The issue here is that a part of the "rule" (if you deepstrike as a FMC, you must swoop) cannot be fulfilled due to an advanced rule.
There, you just summed it up. You cannot swoop due to an advance rule. If you cannot Swoop, you cannot do something that requires you to Swoop. Therefore you cannot Deep Strike.
JinxDragon wrote: Col_Impact,
The problem is not Deep Striking, it is what occurs with this particular Model when it hit the table. It is forbidden from being in a Swooping state and there is no details informing us that this Restriction is only checked at specific times, so it is an on-going Restriction that has to always be obeyed. Upon Deep Striking this Rule will encounter the 'Counts as Swooping' Clause, and be forced to count the Model as Swooping for the purposes of this Restriction. Any action which puts it in a non-swooping state is in violation of this Restriction, and therefore illegal.
I've really got to agree with col_Impact on this one. Just because swoop is a result of deep-striking doesn't prevent you from deep-striking, via basic vs advanced.
If you have a unit with Moves Through Cover that's attempting to charge at another unit through cover, are you going to disallow them declaring a charge? Per the rules they are mandated to roll dice in a specific way due to the intervening cover, but Move Through Cover prevents them from rolling in that way - by your logic, as they are not allowed to perform that step, they are not allowed to declare a charge at all.
Similarly, can you actually shoot an Ork unit over 10 strong from the Waaaagh! Ghazkull supplement? Per the basic rules, should you inflict over 25% casualties and force a moral check, which if failed causes the unit to fall back. However an Ork unit over 10 strong (with a boss) from Waaaagh! Ghazkull will never fall back - can you not shoot them at all due to that prevention? Can't even -harm- fearless units by that criteria.
Both of those situations have rules to resolve them.
Cite a single rule that handles resolving one rule that requires you end up Swooping and another that restricts you from Swooping.
Deepstrike goes off without a hitch, Swooping is not relevant to that. Once deepstrike is through, you attempt to put the model into Swoop mode. You cannot, per the advanced rule in the formation. If models with Move Through Cover can charge through cover can charge, Ghazzkul's ork hordes can be shot at, and models with Fearless can be hurt at all, then there's nothing wrong with deepstriking in this instance.
Except, of course, the fact that you literally can't Swoop and you have no permission to Glide out of Deep Strike (aside from assumptions and made up rules). There are rules to handle Fearless, Ghaz hordes, and Move Through Cover.
a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).
I am arguing from A since that is what is RAW. They always have Deep Strike and it is not accessed through Swooping or Gliding. The Swooping vs Gliding mode gets resolved via Basic v. Advanced after Deep Strike.
If you are arguing from B why are you even engaging in a debate at all? Per B a Deep Strike can't happen for you anyway.
The real debate is then for those that are arguing from B perspective is over A vs B.
A vs B is the real argument. Otherwise we aren't even working from the same premises and will be disconnected in our discussions.
Neither. No one is arguing the ability of a FMC to Deep strike in general. Please actually read the thread.
It is EXTREMELY relevant what premises people are arguing from. If the flyrant is deep striking at all then it is not doing so as dependent on Swooping so any B implicit thinking needs to be discarded altogether as totally irrelevant to the argument being discussed. So the Deep Strike happens. Resolve any conflicts between modes via the Basic vs Advanced rule since that is the way the rules provide for us to resolve conflicts.
If someone wants to argue with B thinking implicit then we need to take the argument directly to A vs B.
a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).
I am arguing from A since that is what is RAW. They always have Deep Strike and it is not accessed through Swooping or Gliding. The Swooping vs Gliding mode gets resolved via Basic v. Advanced after Deep Strike.
If you are arguing from B why are you even engaging in a debate at all? Per B a Deep Strike can't happen for you anyway.
The real debate is then for those that are arguing from B perspective is over A vs B.
A vs B is the real argument. Otherwise we aren't even working from the same premises and will be disconnected in our discussions.
Your trying to argue the point of the locked thread. Neither of those have anything to do with the Rule at hand. Please argue the point and not lock this thread over a rehash of those two points.
The issue here is that a part of the "rule" (if you deepstrike as a FMC, you must swoop) cannot be fulfilled due to an advanced rule.
There, you just summed it up. You cannot swoop due to an advance rule. If you cannot Swoop, you cannot do something that requires you to Swoop. Therefore you cannot Deep Strike.
The whole point of A vs B is whether Deep Strike is dependent on Swoop. For A it is not. For B, FMC cannot Deep Strike and if somehow they could then Deep Strike would be dependent on Swoop.
We are arguing from different tracks. And you are making discussion of the real issue taboo for some silly reason, so no real way forward is possible, since in the background, we are actually arguing A vs B.
Morganfreeman,
I see where the communication error has occurred... you are making an assumption that my opposition to applying Basic vs Advanced to this situation means it can never be applied to any situation. I have never made the argument that Basic vs Advanced is never to be applied, only that a direct conflict must first occur before it is applied. This is because Rule Interactions can lead to multiple Restrictions being put forth on a situation, and unless we require a direct conflict then a single permission could over-turn a wide range of Restrictions in ways that clearly are not intended.
Example:
Charging after Disembarking from an Assault Vehicle that Arrived from Reserves.....
It is EXTREMELY relevant what premises people are arguing from. If the flyrant is deep striking at all then it is not doing so as dependent on Swooping so any B implicit thinking needs to be discarded altogether as totally irrelevant to the argument being discussed. So the Deep Strike happens. Resolve any conflicts between modes via the Basic vs Advanced rule since that is the way the rules provide for us to resolve conflicts.
If someone wants to argue with B thinking implicit then we need to take the argument directly to A vs B.
Basic vs Advanced does not allow you to do something that requires you to end Swooping if you're not allowed to Swoop.
This is what you are hand waving and refusing to address.
It is EXTREMELY relevant what premises people are arguing from. If the flyrant is deep striking at all then it is not doing so as dependent on Swooping so any B implicit thinking needs to be discarded altogether as totally irrelevant to the argument being discussed. So the Deep Strike happens. Resolve any conflicts between modes via the Basic vs Advanced rule since that is the way the rules provide for us to resolve conflicts.
If someone wants to argue with B thinking implicit then we need to take the argument directly to A vs B.
Basic vs Advanced does not allow you to do something that requires you to end Swooping if you're not allowed to Swoop.
This is what you are hand waving and refusing to address.
I am not hand waving anything.
Per the A track of thinking, Deep Strike is on the FMC and is not dependent on anything.
The Deep Strike happens. After it happens a conflict arises. The FMC rule conflicts with the MF rule.
The rules give me permission to resolve conflicts one way.
Spoiler:
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
One of 2 things happen after the Deep Strike. Either the FMC is in MC mode per no mode active. Or it is in Glide mode per MF overriding. Or they simply co-exist since they are not in direct contradiction.
If you are going to argue, do not argue from a B track of thinking. There is no point to that. We would need to instead argue directly A versus B.
If you've provided a set of premises that support your argument, but they are in conflict with another rule, your argument will not hold. It's important to remember to "Break No Rule".
For example, in 40K (4th edition) units that arrive on the table via deep strike "may not move or assault on the turn they arrive". However, if that unit has the 'Fleet' Universal Special Rule they are allowed to move D6" during the shooting phase in a turn they don't shoot. In this case there are two viable rule that clash; one stating that the unit cannot move that turn and the other saying the unit is indeed allowed to move if it doesn't shoot, so which one takes precedence? Because we must always strive to "Break no Rule" and moving at all during the turn a unit arrives via Deep Strike would break a rule we must play that the unit arriving via Deep Strike cannot 'Fleet' on the same turn.
To Deep Strike, the FMCmust be able to Swoop and thus breaks the formation rule that forbids him from Swooping. By forbidding him from Deep Striking you have broken no rules.
Fragile wrote: The conflict between Advanced and Basic occurs before you Deep Strike.
The advanced rule of MF says you cannot Deep Strike. You still have not shown any permission to overcome that advanced rule.
How does the advanced rule of MF say I cannot Deep Strike? Remember, do not resort to any B track thinking.
MF says you cannot Swoop. Deep Strike requires you to place the Tyrant on the board in Swooping mode. That is a basic FMC fule, that is in direct conflict with a Codex rule. Therefore the Codex rule forbids DS.
It is EXTREMELY relevant what premises people are arguing from. If the flyrant is deep striking at all then it is not doing so as dependent on Swooping so any B implicit thinking needs to be discarded altogether as totally irrelevant to the argument being discussed. So the Deep Strike happens. Resolve any conflicts between modes via the Basic vs Advanced rule since that is the way the rules provide for us to resolve conflicts.
If someone wants to argue with B thinking implicit then we need to take the argument directly to A vs B.
Basic vs Advanced does not allow you to do something that requires you to end Swooping if you're not allowed to Swoop.
This is what you are hand waving and refusing to address.
I am not hand waving anything.
Per the A track of thinking, Deep Strike is on the FMC and is not dependent on anything.
The Deep Strike happens. After it happens a conflict arises. The FMC rule conflicts with the MF rule.
The rules give me permission to resolve conflicts one way.
Spoiler:
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
One of 2 things happen after the Deep Strike. Either the FMC is in MC mode per no mode active. Or it is in Glide mode per MF overriding. Or they simply co-exist since they are not in direct contradiction.
If you are going to argue, do not argue from a B track of thinking. There is no point to that. We would need to instead argue directly A versus B.
You're separating the Deep Strike from the requirement to Swoop. You shouldn't.
The quoted rule does not give you the permission you say it does.
I can tell because it doesn't say anything like "Make up what you want the end result to be."
And yes, Swooping and Gliding are conflicting rules. You cannot be both.
If you've provided a set of premises that support your argument, but they are in conflict with another rule, your argument will not hold. It's important to remember to "Break No Rule".
For example, in 40K (4th edition) units that arrive on the table via deep strike "may not move or assault on the turn they arrive". However, if that unit has the 'Fleet' Universal Special Rule they are allowed to move D6" during the shooting phase in a turn they don't shoot. In this case there are two viable rule that clash; one stating that the unit cannot move that turn and the other saying the unit is indeed allowed to move if it doesn't shoot, so which one takes precedence? Because we must always strive to "Break no Rule" and moving at all during the turn a unit arrives via Deep Strike would break a rule we must play that the unit arriving via Deep Strike cannot 'Fleet' on the same turn.
To Deep Strike, the FMCmust be able to Swoop and thus breaks the formation rule that forbids him from Swooping. By forbidding him from Deep Striking you have broken no rules.
You have just proven my point that the main debate is versus these two tracks.
a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).
How about before anyone posts they indicate which track they adhere to? It is very important to make explicit what premises people are working from.
It is EXTREMELY relevant what premises people are arguing from. If the flyrant is deep striking at all then it is not doing so as dependent on Swooping so any B implicit thinking needs to be discarded altogether as totally irrelevant to the argument being discussed. So the Deep Strike happens. Resolve any conflicts between modes via the Basic vs Advanced rule since that is the way the rules provide for us to resolve conflicts.
If someone wants to argue with B thinking implicit then we need to take the argument directly to A vs B.
Basic vs Advanced does not allow you to do something that requires you to end Swooping if you're not allowed to Swoop.
This is what you are hand waving and refusing to address.
I am not hand waving anything.
Per the A track of thinking, Deep Strike is on the FMC and is not dependent on anything.
The Deep Strike happens. After it happens a conflict arises. The FMC rule conflicts with the MF rule.
The rules give me permission to resolve conflicts one way.
Spoiler:
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
One of 2 things happen after the Deep Strike. Either the FMC is in MC mode per no mode active. Or it is in Glide mode per MF overriding. Or they simply co-exist since they are not in direct contradiction.
If you are going to argue, do not argue from a B track of thinking. There is no point to that. We would need to instead argue directly A versus B.
You're separating the Deep Strike from the requirement to Swoop. You shouldn't.
The quoted rule does not give you the permission you say it does.
I can tell because it doesn't say anything like "Make up what you want the end result to be."
And yes, Swooping and Gliding are conflicting rules. You cannot be both.
Again, once again you are proving that we are really arguing over A vs B. The A track removes Deep Strike from the requirement to Swoop.
No, we're not. In general, FMCs are able to deep strike.
That has literally nothing to so with the fact that there is a restriction from Swooping and a requirement to Swoop, and no rules to handle that conflict.
No, we're not. In general, FMCs are able to deep strike.
That has literally nothing to so with the fact that there is a restriction from Swooping and a requirement to Swoop, and no rules to handle that conflict.
In the A track of thinking, Deep Strike is not dependent on Swooping. If swooping happens after the Deep Strike and that conflicts with MF than any conflict arising from that gets resolved with the Basic Vs. Advanced Rule.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fragile wrote: You broke the Codex rule that says you cannot swoop and codex trumps your BRB Deepstrike rule.
You are arguing from the B track of thinking.
The A track of thinking lets the Deep Strike happen since Deep Strike is not dependent on Swoop.
And a rule did not break, only a conflict happened. And we know how to resolve conflicts.
I am not strawmanning. Which Track do you adere to?
a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).
col_impact wrote: ..I am not strawmanning. Which Track do you adere to?
a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike. b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).
This is your strawman. Btw, I already answered this question above.
col_impact wrote: ..I am not strawmanning. Which Track do you adere to?
a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).
This is your strawman. Btw, I already answered this question above.
Your point has been disproven.
Huh? Copy and paste too much for you?
My argument proceeds logically from the A track premise. All the issues you guys are having are coming from B track thinking which attacks the A track foundation itself. This is fine but unproductive. If this is the case then we really should be arguing about A versus B or the argument has no way of going forward.
The Hive Tyrant cannot leave the unit during the battle, and can only use the Gliding Flight mode.
A FMC that arrives from Deep Strike is using the Zooming Flight mode. There is no 'conflict' like you keep claiming because Deep Strike is a choice. It's not mandatory. Even if it were mandatory you'd still be wrong because the 'Basic versus Advanced' rule says that the advanced rule wins out and that would be the 'Monstrous Flock' rule.
The Hive Tyrant cannot leave the unit during the battle, and can only use the Gliding Flight mode.
A FMC that arrives from Deep Strike is using the Zooming Flight mode. There is no 'conflict' like you keep claiming because Deep Strike is a choice. It's not mandatory. Even if it were mandatory you'd still be wrong because the 'Basic versus Advanced' rule says that the advanced rule wins out and that would be the 'Monstrous Flock' rule.
The conflict does not arise until after the Deep Strike happens and at that point in time, post-Deep Strike, there is a conflict between BRB and formation rules over which mode the FMC is in. We then apply the Basic vs Advanced Rule.
col_impact wrote: ..I am not strawmanning. Which Track do you adere to?
a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).
This is your strawman. Btw, I already answered this question above.
Your point has been disproven.
Huh? Copy and paste too much for you?
My argument proceeds logically from the A track premise. All the issues you guys are having are coming from B track thinking which attacks the A track foundation itself. This is fine but unproductive. If this is the case then we really should be arguing about A versus B or the argument has no way of going forward.
Perhaps you should scroll back and read. But this post shows that it is clear that you are not arguing the rule of Monstrous Flock, but are instead trying to restart the debate over whether FMCs can Deep Strike since they "move like jump."
col_impact wrote: ..I am not strawmanning. Which Track do you adere to?
a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).
This is your strawman. Btw, I already answered this question above.
Your point has been disproven.
Huh? Copy and paste too much for you?
My argument proceeds logically from the A track premise. All the issues you guys are having are coming from B track thinking which attacks the A track foundation itself. This is fine but unproductive. If this is the case then we really should be arguing about A versus B or the argument has no way of going forward.
Perhaps you should scroll back and read. But this post shows that it is clear that you are not arguing the rule of Monstrous Flock, but are instead trying to restart the debate over whether FMCs can Deep Strike since they "move like jump."
This is because in logic it is extremely relevant what premises we argue from.
In track A, Deep Strike is independent of Swoop. In track B, Deep Strike is dependent on Swoop. That is obviously extremely relevant to the argument that follows.
The ridiculous position is yours, since you are insisting on making taboo the actual debate we should be having.
At any rate, there will be TWO answers to this problem (at least) depending on which track you argue from.
The Hive Tyrant cannot leave the unit during the battle, and can only use the Gliding Flight mode.
A FMC that arrives from Deep Strike is using the Zooming Flight mode. There is no 'conflict' like you keep claiming because Deep Strike is a choice. It's not mandatory. Even if it were mandatory you'd still be wrong because the 'Basic versus Advanced' rule says that the advanced rule wins out and that would be the 'Monstrous Flock' rule.
The conflict does not arise until after the Deep Strike happens and at that point in time, post-Deep Strike, there is a conflict between BRB and formation rules over which mode the FMC is in. We then apply the Basic vs Advanced Rule.
False. It happens as soon as you declare you are going to Deep Strike. Any voluntary action you take that causes you to break a rule is not allowed.
There are no two answers. MF forbids you to Swoop. Arrival from Deepstrike places you into Swoop mode. Therefore you cannot choose to Deep strike because it makes you swoop.
Your making an erroneous claim that it matters how you got the Deep strike rule. It does not. Deep Striking makes you Swoop no matter how you come to obtain the rule.
since you are insisting on making taboo the actual debate we should be having.
Its not taboo, it just has NOTHING to do with this argument. But for your peace of mind the answer is A.
The Hive Tyrant cannot leave the unit during the battle, and can only use the Gliding Flight mode.
A FMC that arrives from Deep Strike is using the Zooming Flight mode. There is no 'conflict' like you keep claiming because Deep Strike is a choice. It's not mandatory. Even if it were mandatory you'd still be wrong because the 'Basic versus Advanced' rule says that the advanced rule wins out and that would be the 'Monstrous Flock' rule.
The conflict does not arise until after the Deep Strike happens and at that point in time, post-Deep Strike, there is a conflict between BRB and formation rules over which mode the FMC is in. We then apply the Basic vs Advanced Rule.
False. It happens as soon as you declare you are going to Deep Strike. Any voluntary action you take that causes you to break a rule is not allowed.
Nope. The BRB provides a way to resolve conflicts.
Spoiler:
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
Fragile wrote: There are no two answers. MF forbids you to Swoop. Arrival from Deepstrike places you into Swoop mode. Therefore you cannot choose to Deep strike because it makes you swoop.
Your making an erroneous claim that it matters how you got the Deep strike rule. It does not. Deep Striking makes you Swoop no matter how you come to obtain the rule.
since you are insisting on making taboo the actual debate we should be having.
Its not taboo, it just has NOTHING to do with this argument. But for your peace of mind the answer is A.
It is only AFTER having arrived from Deep Strike that we are placed in Swoop mode. That then conflicts with MF. Then we apply the Basic Vs Advanced Rule.
Fragile wrote: There are no two answers. MF forbids you to Swoop. Arrival from Deepstrike places you into Swoop mode. Therefore you cannot choose to Deep strike because it makes you swoop.
Your making an erroneous claim that it matters how you got the Deep strike rule. It does not. Deep Striking makes you Swoop no matter how you come to obtain the rule.
since you are insisting on making taboo the actual debate we should be having.
Its not taboo, it just has NOTHING to do with this argument. But for your peace of mind the answer is A.
It is only AFTER having arrived from Deep Strike that we are placed in Swoop mode. That then conflicts with MF. Then we apply the Basic Vs Advanced Rule.
You cannot choose to do something that you are forbidden to do, just because you were able to do it through a different special rule. It does not matter whether you choose the flight mode in movement or the flight mode is chosen for you by your deployment method. You are disallowed from Swooping. Deep Striking puts you into Swoop mode. Therefore you are disallowed from Deep Striking.
Fragile wrote: There are no two answers. MF forbids you to Swoop. Arrival from Deepstrike places you into Swoop mode. Therefore you cannot choose to Deep strike because it makes you swoop.
Your making an erroneous claim that it matters how you got the Deep strike rule. It does not. Deep Striking makes you Swoop no matter how you come to obtain the rule.
since you are insisting on making taboo the actual debate we should be having.
Its not taboo, it just has NOTHING to do with this argument. But for your peace of mind the answer is A.
It is only AFTER having arrived from Deep Strike that we are placed in Swoop mode. That then conflicts with MF. Then we apply the Basic Vs Advanced Rule.
You cannot choose to do something that you are forbidden to do, just because you were able to do it through a different special rule. It does not matter whether you choose the flight mode in movement or the flight mode is chosen for you by your deployment method. You are disallowed from Swooping. Deep Striking puts you into Swoop mode. Therefore you are disallowed from Deep Striking.
Deep Strike happens. And then Swoop mode happens. That then conflicts with MF rule. The BRB does not say undo and go back until the conflict goes away. That way of resolving a conflict is not in the BRB. The BRB says apply Basic Vs Advanced to resolve conflicts.
I am not forbidden from Deep Striking. Something happens AFTER deep striking that is in conflict with MF. Sure enough, the rules let me resolve that conflict.
You choose to DS with the unit, knowing full well that it arrives in Swoop mode which is forbidden. Continuing any further is simply cheating. The only way to bring them on from reserves is to come on from the board edge.
You choose to DS with the unit, knowing full well that it arrives in Swoop mode which is forbidden. Continuing any further is simply cheating. The only way to bring them on from reserves is to come on from the board edge.
You are prohibited from doing A.
B causes A.
Therefore you cannot do B either.
I am just applying rules that are in the BRB. Deep Strike happens. There are then after the Deep Strike happens two conflicting rules telling me what mode the Flyrant is in. Luckily, the BRB provides a rule for just that kind of scenario.
If a player is allowed to Deep Strike by the rules then they can Deep Strike. If Deep Strike causes, after the fact, a conflict in the state of things between a Basic and an Advanced rule, then guess which rule kicks in to settle the conflict?
col_impact wrote: I am just applying rules that are in the BRB. Deep Strike happens.
And therein lies your failure. The rule you apply first is the Codex rule. That forbids DS. Anything that lets you DS you can no longer use unless it specifically states that it overcomes the MF restriction.
col_impact wrote: I am just applying rules that are in the BRB. Deep Strike happens.
And therein lies your failure. The rule you apply first is the Codex rule. That forbids DS. Anything that lets you DS you can no longer use unless it specifically states that it overcomes the MF restriction.
Huh? Per FMC rules, I have Deep Strike (this is the premise of the A track). I go ahead and Deep Strike. After the fact of Deep Strike I am put into Swoop mode. This conflicts with MF "only Glide" rule. Okay, there is a conflict. What do I do? Basic V Advanced to the rescue. The BRB does not tell me to go back and undo steps. It does not tell me to undo so I cannot. I resolve the mode conflict with the Basic Vs Advanced rule.
The MF rule does not forbid DS. The MF rule exactly says only Glide which ONLY comes into conflict AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking. I cannot undo the Deep Strike. The rules do not allow me to undo. The rules tell me to resolve conflicts between sources with the Basic Vs Advanced Rule. I have no trouble following that rule. I have followed rules all the way through.
The Hive Tyrant cannot leave the unit during the battle, and can only use the Gliding Flight mode.
A FMC that arrives from Deep Strike is using the Zooming Flight mode. There is no 'conflict' like you keep claiming because Deep Strike is a choice. It's not mandatory. Even if it were mandatory you'd still be wrong because the 'Basic versus Advanced' rule says that the advanced rule wins out and that would be the 'Monstrous Flock' rule.
The conflict does not arise until after the Deep Strike happens and at that point in time, post-Deep Strike, there is a conflict between BRB and formation rules over which mode the FMC is in. We then apply the Basic vs Advanced Rule.
False. It happens as soon as you declare you are going to Deep Strike. Any voluntary action you take that causes you to break a rule is not allowed.
Nope. The BRB provides a way to resolve conflicts.
Spoiler:
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
Except you're ignoring two facts
A) There is NO CONFLICT.
B) If there was a conflict (and there's not), the 'Monstrous Flock' rule would win out.
Ghaz,
I hate to try and frame another person's debate, but I believe Col_Impact is trying to Deep Strike the Flying Monstrous and have it Gliding by applying this Rule.
JinxDragon wrote: Ghaz,
I hate to try and frame another person's debate, but I believe Col_Impact is trying to Deep Strike the Flying Monstrous and have it Gliding by applying this Rule.
The Hive Tyrant cannot leave the unit during the battle, and can only use the Gliding Flight mode.
A FMC that arrives from Deep Strike is using the Zooming Flight mode. There is no 'conflict' like you keep claiming because Deep Strike is a choice. It's not mandatory. Even if it were mandatory you'd still be wrong because the 'Basic versus Advanced' rule says that the advanced rule wins out and that would be the 'Monstrous Flock' rule.
The conflict does not arise until after the Deep Strike happens and at that point in time, post-Deep Strike, there is a conflict between BRB and formation rules over which mode the FMC is in. We then apply the Basic vs Advanced Rule.
False. It happens as soon as you declare you are going to Deep Strike. Any voluntary action you take that causes you to break a rule is not allowed.
Nope. The BRB provides a way to resolve conflicts.
Spoiler:
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
Except you're ignoring two facts
A) There is NO CONFLICT.
B) If there was a conflict (and there's not), the 'Monstrous Flock' rule would win out.
If there is no conflict then that works too. The rules as written (following track A) lead to CO-EXISTING rules.
Deep Strike happens. FMC is in Swoop mode after the Deep Strike. The Flyrant can "only use Glide mode". I guess then you only have to worry about it if you are called upon to Jink, which If those rules co-exist means you cannot Jink since the FMC can only use Glide mode which it is not in until next movement.
JinxDragon wrote: Ghaz,
I hate to try and frame another person's debate, but I believe Col_Impact is trying to Deep Strike the Flying Monstrous and have it Gliding by applying this Rule.
Which, of course, there is no allowance to do.
The Deep Strike rule allows this (this is of course following the A track premise)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JinxDragon wrote: Ghaz,
I hate to try and frame another person's debate, but I believe Col_Impact is trying to Deep Strike the Flying Monstrous and have it Gliding by applying this Rule.
Nothing prevents the Deep Strike. Any conflict, if it happens at all, happens after the fact of the Deep Strike. We have rules for resolving conflicts and they do not involve going back in steps. They involve hammering Advanced over Basic.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ghaz wrote: Except he has no support for it transforming an action that requires the model to be in Swooping Flight mode to be done in Gliding Flight mode.
Deep Strike does not require the Swooping mode (see the A track premise)
If you want to debate the A versus B premises that is a whole different debate, but definitely the more important one to deal with.
col_impact wrote: [
Huh? Per FMC rules, I have Deep Strike (this is the premise of the A track). I go ahead and Deep Strike. After the fact of Deep Strike I am put into Swoop mode. This conflicts with MF "only Glide" rule. Okay, there is a conflict. What do I do? Basic V Advanced to the rescue. The BRB does not tell me to go back and undo steps. It does not tell me to undo so I cannot. I resolve the mode conflict with the Basic Vs Advanced rule.
I see no specific permission in the Deep Strike rule that lets you overcome the FMC requirement to be swooping. Since you have to be swooping when you DS, you are in violation of the MF rule. You have no "specific" argument anywhere here other than a weak attempt to bypass the restriction of "no swooping" by using a USR to swoop rather than a change of flight mode.
The MF rule does not forbid DS. The MF rule exactly says only Glide which ONLY comes into conflict AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking.
The timing does not matter. You are forbidden to swoop.
I cannot undo the Deep Strike.
You cannot DS to start with because you know it requires you to Swoop.
The rules tell me to resolve conflicts between sources with the Basic Vs Advanced Rule..
You have done nothing to resolve the conflict. You are now Swooping while in MF which is forbidden.
I don't have to be Swooping when I Deep Strike. Deep Striking is not dependent on Swooping. I am put in Swooping mode AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
When that rules is called, the FACT of Deep Strike has happened. The conflict, if you see any, with MF gets resolved via the Basic Vs Advanced Rule AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking.
col_impact wrote: [ I don't have to be Swooping when I Deep Strike. Deep Striking is not dependent on Swooping. I am put in Swooping mode AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking.
Strawman again.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
This you cannot do because of MF. Show specific permission in the Deepstrike or FMC rule to overcome the inability to Swoop because of MF.
I don't have to be Swooping when I Deep Strike. Deep Striking is not dependent on Swooping. I am put in Swooping mode AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
When that rules is called, the FACT of Deep Strike has happened. The conflict, if you see any, with MF gets resolved via the Basic Vs Advanced Rule AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking.
Please, what rule actually resolves that conflict?
You must be Swooping.
You cannot swoop.
Cite the rule allowing you to Glide. Basic vs Advanced tells us which rule to reference - the one that says you cannot Swoop.
To Deep Strike, you must end up Swooping. That's what the rule says. Agreed?
a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
If you have an alternate take on that rule, then we need to argue about that premise. The logic of my argument follows this RAW.
I Deep Strike.
After the fact of Deep Striking, I may or may not be in conflict with the MF rule. If being in Swooping mode puts me in conflict with MF "only use Glide" mode then I use Basic Vs Advanced Rule to resolve conflict since we have a bona-fide conflict between sources.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DeathReaper wrote: DS requires the FMC to be swooping, a state you can not be in when you are a part of the formation.
Therefore FMC'as can not DS while a part of that formation.
col_impact, You have not shown any rules that over ride the restriction, your argument falls apart.
a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
If you have an alternate take on that rule, then we need to argue on that premise. The logic of my argument follows this RAW.
I Deep Strike.
After the fact of Deep Striking, I may or may not be in conflict with the MF rule. If being in Swooping mode puts me in conflict with MF "only use Glide" mode then I use Basic Vs Advanced Rule to resolve conflict since we have a bona-fide conflict between sources.
The MF rule does not say "only use Glide". Using actual rules in your argument is polite.
Yes, the FMC has the Deep Strike rule. Using it, however, breaks the MF rule.
Basic vs Advanced does not allow you to break an Advanced rule.
I don't have to be Swooping when I Deep Strike. Deep Striking is not dependent on Swooping. I am put in Swooping mode AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
When that rules is called, the FACT of Deep Strike has happened. The conflict, if you see any, with MF gets resolved via the Basic Vs Advanced Rule AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking.
Please, what rule actually resolves that conflict?
You must be Swooping.
You cannot swoop.
Cite the rule allowing you to Glide. Basic vs Advanced tells us which rule to reference - the one that says you cannot Swoop.
To Deep Strike, you must end up Swooping. That's what the rule says. Agreed?
After the fact of Deep Striking, you end up Swooping. That is precisely what the rule says. It does not say "in order to", agreed?
a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
If you have an alternate take on that rule, then we need to argue on that premise. The logic of my argument follows this RAW.
I Deep Strike.
After the fact of Deep Striking, I may or may not be in conflict with the MF rule. If being in Swooping mode puts me in conflict with MF "only use Glide" mode then I use Basic Vs Advanced Rule to resolve conflict since we have a bona-fide conflict between sources.
The MF rule does not say "only use Glide". Using actual rules in your argument is polite.
Yes, the FMC has the Deep Strike rule. Using it, however, breaks the MF rule.
Basic vs Advanced does not allow you to break an Advanced rule.
Deep Striking conflicts with the MF rule AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking.
I don't have to be Swooping when I Deep Strike. Deep Striking is not dependent on Swooping. I am put in Swooping mode AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
When that rules is called, the FACT of Deep Strike has happened. The conflict, if you see any, with MF gets resolved via the Basic Vs Advanced Rule AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking.
Please, what rule actually resolves that conflict?
You must be Swooping.
You cannot swoop.
Cite the rule allowing you to Glide. Basic vs Advanced tells us which rule to reference - the one that says you cannot Swoop.
To Deep Strike, you must end up Swooping. That's what the rule says. Agreed?
After the fact of Deep Striking, you end up Swooping. That is precisely what the rule says. It does not say "in order to", agreed?
Agreed.
Have you formed an argument using actual rules? And are you willing to actually answer questions?
col_impact wrote: [
After the fact of Deep Striking, you end up Swooping. That is precisely what the rule says. It does not say "in order to", agreed?
You still have not shown specific permission to break the MF rule. Neither Deep Strike nor FMC rules reference that rule. Care to cite it?
I am not breaking the MF rule. Deep Strike happens and a basic rule conflicts with an advanced rule AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking. Basic vs Advanced resolve the conflict.
a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
If you have an alternate take on that rule, then we need to argue on that premise. The logic of my argument follows this RAW.
I Deep Strike.
After the fact of Deep Striking, I may or may not be in conflict with the MF rule. If being in Swooping mode puts me in conflict with MF "only use Glide" mode then I use Basic Vs Advanced Rule to resolve conflict since we have a bona-fide conflict between sources.
The MF rule does not say "only use Glide". Using actual rules in your argument is polite.
Yes, the FMC has the Deep Strike rule. Using it, however, breaks the MF rule.
Basic vs Advanced does not allow you to break an Advanced rule.
Deep Striking conflicts with the MF rule AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking.
Agreed. Timing doesn't matter, however - there's still a rule being broken. Agreed?
I don't have to be Swooping when I Deep Strike. Deep Striking is not dependent on Swooping. I am put in Swooping mode AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
When that rules is called, the FACT of Deep Strike has happened. The conflict, if you see any, with MF gets resolved via the Basic Vs Advanced Rule AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking.
Please, what rule actually resolves that conflict?
You must be Swooping.
You cannot swoop.
Cite the rule allowing you to Glide. Basic vs Advanced tells us which rule to reference - the one that says you cannot Swoop.
To Deep Strike, you must end up Swooping. That's what the rule says. Agreed?
After the fact of Deep Striking, you end up Swooping. That is precisely what the rule says. It does not say "in order to", agreed?
Agreed.
Have you formed an argument using actual rules? And are you willing to actually answer questions?
I am the only one who has been actually quoting rules here.
a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
If you have an alternate take on that rule, then we need to argue on that premise. The logic of my argument follows this RAW.
I Deep Strike.
After the fact of Deep Striking, I may or may not be in conflict with the MF rule. If being in Swooping mode puts me in conflict with MF "only use Glide" mode then I use Basic Vs Advanced Rule to resolve conflict since we have a bona-fide conflict between sources.
The MF rule does not say "only use Glide". Using actual rules in your argument is polite.
Yes, the FMC has the Deep Strike rule. Using it, however, breaks the MF rule.
Basic vs Advanced does not allow you to break an Advanced rule.
Deep Striking conflicts with the MF rule AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking.
Agreed. Timing doesn't matter, however - there's still a rule being broken. Agreed?
A conflict between Basic and Advanced Rules happen, agreed?
col_impact wrote: [
After the fact of Deep Striking, you end up Swooping. That is precisely what the rule says. It does not say "in order to", agreed?
You still have not shown specific permission to break the MF rule. Neither Deep Strike nor FMC rules reference that rule. Care to cite it?
I am not breaking the MF rule. Deep Strike happens and a basic rule conflicts with an advanced rule AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking. Basic vs Advanced resolve the conflict.
As asked before, please cite the rule that resolves the following conflict, and explain how it does so.
Simply quoting Basic vs Advanced isn't advancing your argument.
If you Deep Strike, you must be Swooping.
You are forbidden from Swooping.
col_impact wrote: [
After the fact of Deep Striking, you end up Swooping. That is precisely what the rule says. It does not say "in order to", agreed?
You still have not shown specific permission to break the MF rule. Neither Deep Strike nor FMC rules reference that rule. Care to cite it?
I am not breaking the MF rule. Deep Strike happens and a basic rule conflicts with an advanced rule AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking. Basic vs Advanced resolve the conflict.
As asked before, please cite the rule that resolves the following conflict, and explain how it does so.
Simply quoting Basic vs Advanced isn't advancing your argument.
If you Deep Strike, you must be Swooping.
You are forbidden from Swooping.
a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
A conflict between Basic and Advanced Rules happen, agreed?
Yes, the conflict that says you cannot DS because you would be swooping, which is a codex rule. Codex rules in general trump BRB rules, which the DS rule is.
col_impact wrote: [
After the fact of Deep Striking, you end up Swooping. That is precisely what the rule says. It does not say "in order to", agreed?
You still have not shown specific permission to break the MF rule. Neither Deep Strike nor FMC rules reference that rule. Care to cite it?
I am not breaking the MF rule. Deep Strike happens and a basic rule conflicts with an advanced rule AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking. Basic vs Advanced resolve the conflict.
As asked before, please cite the rule that resolves the following conflict, and explain how it does so.
Simply quoting Basic vs Advanced isn't advancing your argument.
If you Deep Strike, you must be Swooping.
You are forbidden from Swooping.
a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
So you decide not to actually explain how Basic vs Advanced resolves this conflict?
Cool. Again, an FMC has Deep Strike. I won't argue that in this thread.
But Deep Striking when you are forbidden from Swooping breaks an Advanced rule.
A conflict between Basic and Advanced Rules happen, agreed?
Yes, the conflict that says you cannot DS because you would be swooping, which is a codex rule. Codex rules in general trump BRB rules, which the DS rule is.
No conflict happens until AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking. And then you have a BRB to resolve the conflict.
col_impact wrote: [
After the fact of Deep Striking, you end up Swooping. That is precisely what the rule says. It does not say "in order to", agreed?
You still have not shown specific permission to break the MF rule. Neither Deep Strike nor FMC rules reference that rule. Care to cite it?
I am not breaking the MF rule. Deep Strike happens and a basic rule conflicts with an advanced rule AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking. Basic vs Advanced resolve the conflict.
As asked before, please cite the rule that resolves the following conflict, and explain how it does so.
Simply quoting Basic vs Advanced isn't advancing your argument.
If you Deep Strike, you must be Swooping.
You are forbidden from Swooping.
a) FMCs are described as moving like Jump units, therefore, in accordance with Jump unit rules, they have Deep Strike.
So you decide not to actually explain how Basic vs Advanced resolves this conflict?
Cool. Again, an FMC has Deep Strike. I won't argue that in this thread.
But Deep Striking when you are forbidden from Swooping breaks an Advanced rule.
Nothing is in conflict until AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking.
Why is that relevant?
By Deep Striking, you've created a conflict. Agreed?
And there's no rule allowing the Deep Strike to happen completely according to the rules. Agreed?
So how is it okay to break a rule again?
It's like moving after a Deep Strike - you're forbidden from doing so. But according to your argument, it's okay because it happens after the Deep Strike? The timing of when the conflict occurs isn't relevant - there's a conflict that results from the choice to Deep strike.
rigeld2 wrote: Why is that relevant?
By Deep Striking, you've created a conflict. Agreed?
And there's no rule allowing the Deep Strike to happen completely according to the rules. Agreed?
So how is it okay to break a rule again?
It's like moving after a Deep Strike - you're forbidden from doing so. But according to your argument, it's okay because it happens after the Deep Strike? The timing of when the conflict occurs isn't relevant - there's a conflict that results from the choice to Deep strike.
We are allowed to Deep Strike. We do so. After we Deep Strike a conflict arises between sources. What flight mode is the Flyrant in? The rules DO NOT allow us to undo steps. The rules TELL US to resolve the conflict by privileging Advanced over Basic. Any conflicts are resolved with the Advanced ruleset.
It's like moving after a Deep Strike - you're forbidden from doing so. But according to your argument, it's okay because it happens after the Deep Strike? The timing of when the conflict occurs isn't relevant - there's a conflict that results from the choice to Deep strike.
That's a strawman argument. Spare us all these silly attempts.
rigeld2 wrote: Why is that relevant?
By Deep Striking, you've created a conflict. Agreed?
And there's no rule allowing the Deep Strike to happen completely according to the rules. Agreed?
So how is it okay to break a rule again?
It's like moving after a Deep Strike - you're forbidden from doing so. But according to your argument, it's okay because it happens after the Deep Strike? The timing of when the conflict occurs isn't relevant - there's a conflict that results from the choice to Deep strike.
We are allowed to Deep Strike. We do so. After we Deep Strike a conflict arises between sources. What flight mode is the Flyrant in? The rules DO NOT allow us to undo steps. The rules TELL US to resolve the conflict by privileging Advanced over Basic. Any conflicts are resolved with the Advanced ruleset.
Please quote from the advanced rules the rule that allows you to opt to switch to gliding mode when Deep Striking.
It doesn't exist. So you're asserting that it's okay to break a rule as long as there's no rule saying you can't do it? Because that's what your argument amounts to.
It's like moving after a Deep Strike - you're forbidden from doing so. But according to your argument, it's okay because it happens after the Deep Strike? The timing of when the conflict occurs isn't relevant - there's a conflict that results from the choice to Deep strike.
That's a strawman argument. Spare us all these silly attempts.
It's not a Strawman. It's a representation of what your argument sounds like.
It's not a silly attempt - you've asserted the timing matters, but refuse to explain why. Instead of calling it a "silly attempt" perhaps you could address it?
As far as I can tell your argument consists of 1-2 rules (of dubious relevance) that you've copy/pasted repeatedly, you assuming that we're saying that FMCs can't Deep Strike at all (that was good for at least a page), and an assertion that it's okay to arrive at, and break, a rule as long as you didn't break any rules getting there.
rigeld2 wrote: Why is that relevant?
By Deep Striking, you've created a conflict. Agreed?
And there's no rule allowing the Deep Strike to happen completely according to the rules. Agreed?
So how is it okay to break a rule again?
It's like moving after a Deep Strike - you're forbidden from doing so. But according to your argument, it's okay because it happens after the Deep Strike? The timing of when the conflict occurs isn't relevant - there's a conflict that results from the choice to Deep strike.
We are allowed to Deep Strike. We do so. After we Deep Strike a conflict arises between sources. What flight mode is the Flyrant in? The rules DO NOT allow us to undo steps. The rules TELL US to resolve the conflict by privileging Advanced over Basic. Any conflicts are resolved with the Advanced ruleset.
Please quote from the advanced rules the rule that allows you to opt to switch to gliding mode when Deep Striking.
It doesn't exist. So you're asserting that it's okay to break a rule as long as there's no rule saying you can't do it? Because that's what your argument amounts to.
It's like moving after a Deep Strike - you're forbidden from doing so. But according to your argument, it's okay because it happens after the Deep Strike? The timing of when the conflict occurs isn't relevant - there's a conflict that results from the choice to Deep strike.
That's a strawman argument. Spare us all these silly attempts.
It's not a Strawman. It's a representation of what your argument sounds like.
It's not a silly attempt - you've asserted the timing matters, but refuse to explain why. Instead of calling it a "silly attempt" perhaps you could address it?
As far as I can tell your argument consists of 1-2 rules (of dubious relevance) that you've copy/pasted repeatedly, you assuming that we're saying that FMCs can't Deep Strike at all (that was good for at least a page), and an assertion that it's okay to arrive at, and break, a rule as long as you didn't break any rules getting there.
The problem with your counter-argument is that you are trying to prevent the Deep Strike from happening with a conflict that arises AFTER the Deep Strike has happened. Nothing prevents the player from Deep Striking. So it isn't until AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking that a conflict can be acted upon. The rules don't let us undo steps that have happened to repair the game state. The rules TELL US to resolve conflicts with Advanced over Basic Rules.
And AvB doesn't actually tell is how to resolve this conflict. Because the Advanced rule is simply being broken.
It's like if you move a Tac Squad model 7". You've chosen to do something that leads to a rule being broken. The game is now in an unresolvable state - according to you that's okay?
There is nothing preventing me from Deep Striking, so I go ahead and Deep Strike, correct?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nosferatu1001 wrote: Incorrect. In order to use the ds usr, you must break a rule. As you have no permission to break a rule, you may not do it.
And we know you don't have permission, otherwise you would have shown it by now.
What rule do I break by Deep Striking?
For reference, here are the Deep Strike Rules. What rule do I break when I perform them?
Spoiler:
DEEP STRIKE
Some units make their way to battle via tunnelling, teleportation, flying, or some other
extraordinary means which allows them to appear in the thick of the fighting.
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep
Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in
Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes
called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin
the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and
then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you
would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a
vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must
continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be
placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When
the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model
touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.
• Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any
further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.
Units Deep Striking into ruins are placed on the ground floor. Deep Striking units count
non-ruined buildings (except for their battlements) as impassable terrain.
In that turn’s Shooting phase, these units can fire (or Run, Turbo-boost or move Flat Out)
as normal, and count as having moved in the previous Movement phase. Vehicles, except
for Walkers, count as having moved at Combat Speed (even Immobilised vehicles). This
can affect the number of weapons they can fire with their full Ballistic Skill.
In that turn’s Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge. This also applies to
units that have disembarked from Transports that arrived by Deep Strike that turn.
That you must be in swoop. Are you allowed to be in swoop? No, unless you break the formation rule. What allows you to break either ds or the formation rule? Page and graph.
nosferatu1001 wrote: That you must be in swoop. Are you allowed to be in swoop? No, unless you break the formation rule. What allows you to break either ds or the formation rule? Page and graph.
Quote the rule that you are having trouble with and let's discuss when that rule is called.
You're processing the rules like a computer instead of a human. You know Deep Strike will cause a conflict in the rules. It is plain to see. But like following the script of a computer you do it anyway.
So the question is, do you follow rules like a script (where the order matters) or do you use the knowledge that following a rule will break (or conflict) with another rule and therefore don't do it?
I'm not sure how the rules are supposed to be read but there's 2 valid ways:
1) As a script. You follow each rule which 'calls' other rules while remaining ignorant of any potential rules that could be called in the future.
2) Non-sequential. You follow each rule knowing the consequences and knowing what other rules it may effect in the future.
col_impact is using method 1. Everyone else seems to be using method 2.
Zimko wrote: You're processing the rules like a computer instead of a human. You know Deep Strike will cause a conflict in the rules. It is plain to see. But like following the script of a computer you do it anyway.
So the question is, do you follow rules like a script (where the order matters) or do you use the knowledge that following a rule will break (or conflict) with another rule and therefore don't do it?
This is a game. We follow the rules and we follow them step by step.
Zimko wrote: You're processing the rules like a computer instead of a human. You know Deep Strike will cause a conflict in the rules. It is plain to see. But like following the script of a computer you do it anyway.
So the question is, do you follow rules like a script (where the order matters) or do you use the knowledge that following a rule will break (or conflict) with another rule and therefore don't do it?
This is a game. We follow the rules and we follow them step by step.
Right, I think this is the disconnect. See my edit above.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The tenents of the forum, as someone linked earlier, tends to lean towards method 2. You have to keep other rules in mind while following a chain of rules 'step by step' as it were. If performing an optional Deep Strike forces a model to Swoop while another rule disallows that model to Swoop then you can not perform the optional Deep Strike. It is a direct cause and effect that following the rules like a script won't catch but we as all-knowing humans can plainly see.
Conflicts With Another Rule
If you've provided a set of premises that support your argument, but they are in conflict with another rule, your argument will not hold. It's important to remember to "Break No Rule".
For example, in 40K (4th edition) units that arrive on the table via deep strike "may not move or assault on the turn they arrive". However, if that unit has the 'Fleet' Universal Special Rule they are allowed to move D6" during the shooting phase in a turn they don't shoot. In this case there are two viable rule that clash; one stating that the unit cannot move that turn and the other saying the unit is indeed allowed to move if it doesn't shoot, so which one takes precedence? Because we must always strive to "Break no Rule" and moving at all during the turn a unit arrives via Deep Strike would break a rule we must play that the unit arriving via Deep Strike cannot 'Fleet' on the same turn.
Zimko wrote: You're processing the rules like a computer instead of a human. You know Deep Strike will cause a conflict in the rules. It is plain to see. But like following the script of a computer you do it anyway.
So the question is, do you follow rules like a script (where the order matters) or do you use the knowledge that following a rule will break (or conflict) with another rule and therefore don't do it?
This is a game. We follow the rules and we follow them step by step.
Right, I think this is the disconnect. See my edit above.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The tenents of the forum, as someone linked earlier, tends to lean towards method 2. You have to keep other rules in mind while following a chain of rules 'step by step' as it were. If performing an optional Deep Strike forces a model to Swoop while another rule disallows that model to Swoop then you can not perform the optional Deep Strike. It is a direct cause and effect that following the rules like a script won't catch but we as all-knowing humans can plainly see.
Conflicts With Another Rule
If you've provided a set of premises that support your argument, but they are in conflict with another rule, your argument will not hold. It's important to remember to "Break No Rule".
For example, in 40K (4th edition) units that arrive on the table via deep strike "may not move or assault on the turn they arrive". However, if that unit has the 'Fleet' Universal Special Rule they are allowed to move D6" during the shooting phase in a turn they don't shoot. In this case there are two viable rule that clash; one stating that the unit cannot move that turn and the other saying the unit is indeed allowed to move if it doesn't shoot, so which one takes precedence? Because we must always strive to "Break no Rule" and moving at all during the turn a unit arrives via Deep Strike would break a rule we must play that the unit arriving via Deep Strike cannot 'Fleet' on the same turn.
Its a game. We follow the rules. And we follow them step by step and resolve their logic step by step. That's how you implement RAW.
If the rest of you are breaking with logical sequentiality then you are already well in the HYWPI category.
But they're only described as moving like Jump units within a rule that is not yet 'called' sequentially. You're being inconsistent. At the point in which the rule you're paraphrasing is called, FMCs have not been described as moving like Jump.
Zimko wrote: But they're only described as moving like Jump units within a rule that is not yet 'called' sequentially. You're being inconsistent. At the point in which the rule you're paraphrasing is called, FMCs have not been described as moving like Jump.
Right. So this is your argument. Which is NOT the same as mine. I am working from A track. You are working from B track.
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).
I believe the 'B track' is true, yes, but I'm ignoring that for the sake of this thread and assuming we're dealing with a FMC who has the Deep Strike USR.
Assuming that, we know a FMC with MF can not utilize Swoop. And we know that by using Deep Strike, we are going to force the FMC to enter play in Swoop. Knowing this means we can not legally use Deep Strike on a FMC with MF.
You're saying that since we're following the rules sequentially, we can ignore the fact that we know a conflict will arrise and go ahead and Deep Strike anyway. This logic conflicts with your previous thread where you said we knew in the future that an FMC will move like a Jump unit and therefore gains Deep Strike.
Grendal is merely pointing out this inconsistency in your arguments.
nosferatu1001 wrote: That you must be in swoop. Are you allowed to be in swoop? No, unless you break the formation rule. What allows you to break either ds or the formation rule? Page and graph.
Quote the rule that you are having trouble with and let's discuss when that rule is called.
Based on evidence, I'm not having any issues with the rules.
I note you failed to answer where you are gaining permission to break a rule from. Any chance you could do so this time? As per the tenets and all. Thanks.
nosferatu1001 wrote: That you must be in swoop. Are you allowed to be in swoop? No, unless you break the formation rule. What allows you to break either ds or the formation rule? Page and graph.
Quote the rule that you are having trouble with and let's discuss when that rule is called.
Based on evidence, I'm not having any issues with the rules.
I note you failed to answer where you are gaining permission to break a rule from. Any chance you could do so this time? As per the tenets and all. Thanks.
I am asking you to quote the rule where you have a problem. The burden is on you to indicate clearly where the problem is. Otherwise there is no problem.
col_impact wrote: My whole theory revolved around reading the rules as they actually are and not conflating these two statements.
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Your whole theory conflated those two statements.
No, you want to NOT follow the rule step by step in order to grant Deep Strike, and then insist that you MUST follow them step by step in order to try and worm around a restriction.
You only follow the order of rules when it is convient for you, and then don't when it isnt. You're never consistent in your arguments.
col_impact wrote: My whole theory revolved around reading the rules as they actually are and not conflating these two statements.
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Your whole theory conflated those two statements.
No, you want to NOT follow the rule step by step in order to grant Deep Strike, and then insist that you MUST follow them step by step in order to try and worm around a restriction.
You only follow the order of rules when it is convient for you, and then don't when it isnt. You're never consistent in your arguments.
You implement a house rule which drops "described as" from the rule above. I don't implement that house rule. The FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit and so indeed is granted Deep Strike.
There would only be a problem with inconsistency if I was trying to reconcile a rule that was stated like this with what I am saying now.
"Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
The problem is you cannot deploy the tyrant in any mode other than swooping RAW if you deploy by deep strike.
the skytyrant rule specifies that you must always glide, it does not state you may count as gliding at all times, or even count as gliding when deep striking.
therefore you are allowed to hold the unit and reserves, and you are allowed to deep strike the unit as per the RAW. but you may not place the tyrant when you deep strike as it has to be placed in swooping, when it is required by RAW in this case to be gliding.
placing the tyrant would be breaking the rules, in any way you try to say its "okay" it is not.
either the tyrant is gliding when it is required to be swooping, or the unit is swooping when its not allowed to as the gargoyles have no rule granting them permission, the formation does not grant it, and the HT cannot extend the rule to the gargoyles-even if it could you would be breaking the rule for the formation that requires the HT to always be gliding.
either way you end up in a situation where models in the unit cannot legally by the rules be placed on the table.
RAW the unit has deepstrike, but the rules of the game prevent you from using it.
col_impact wrote: You implement a house rule which drops "described as" from the rule above. I don't implement that house rule. The FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit and so indeed is granted Deep Strike.
It's not described as that while in reserve.
Only by NOT following the rules in order, step by step, can you claim it is.
But that's an argument for another thread. One that was locked.
I was simply observing with some amusement you lack of consistency, as now you claim you must follow them step by step, as it suits your wishes this time.
I'll leave you to your debate, try not to get this one locked by bringing up the old one
So to sum up THIS thread, following the rules sequentially allows one to Deep Strike a FMC. Which then leads to a conflict where a FMC is in Swoop when it is not allowed to be in Swoop and we have no rules to resolve the conflict.
The ethical thing to do is to disallow Deep Strike in this case so as to not give a player an advantage that may not have been intended by the rules.
The RAW thing to do is nothing... because there's no rule on how to resolve the conflict.
blaktoof wrote: The problem is you cannot deploy the tyrant in any mode other than swooping RAW if you deploy by deep strike.
the skytyrant rule specifies that you must always glide, it does not state you may count as gliding at all times, or even count as gliding when deep striking.
therefore you are allowed to hold the unit and reserves, and you are allowed to deep strike the unit as per the RAW. but you may not place the tyrant when you deep strike as it has to be placed in swooping, when it is required by RAW in this case to be gliding.
placing the tyrant would be breaking the rules, in any way you try to say its "okay" it is not.
either the tyrant is gliding when it is required to be swooping, or the unit is swooping when its not allowed to as the gargoyles have no rule granting them permission, the formation does not grant it, and the HT cannot extend the rule to the gargoyles-even if it could you would be breaking the rule for the formation that requires the HT to always be gliding.
either way you end up in a situation where models in the unit cannot legally by the rules be placed on the table.
RAW the unit has deepstrike, but the rules of the game prevent you from using it.
It's a good thing the rules TELL US what to do in these kind of situations
Spoiler:
Basic Versus Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They
include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules
for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a
special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability
to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader
or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike,
a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated
in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games
Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override
any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a
model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that
model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does
not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions,
a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex.
Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always
takes precedence.
col_impact wrote: You implement a house rule which drops "described as" from the rule above. I don't implement that house rule. The FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit and so indeed is granted Deep Strike.
It's not described as that while in reserve.
Only by NOT following the rules in order, step by step, can you claim it is.
But that's an argument for another thread. One that was locked.
I was simply observing with some amusement you lack of consistency, as now you claim you must follow them step by step, as it suits your wishes this time.
I'll leave you to your debate, try not to get this one locked by bringing up the old one
And I am amused by your inability to wrap your mind around the phrase "described as"
There is nothing preventing me from Deep Striking, so I go ahead and Deep Strike, correct?
Incorrect. By doing so you'd break a rule.
Just like if you moved a Tac Squad 7" in the movement phase.
What rule do I break by Deep Striking?
For reference, here are the Deep Strike Rules. What rule do I break when I perform them?
You forgot to quote a rule. Let me help you out:
Spoiler:
“If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.”
Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Warhammer 40,000.” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
Please explain how you are not breaking this rule, given the restriction from ever Swooping.
Edit: oh, and a repeat of Basic vs Advanced won't help your argument unless you actually, I dunno, explain how breaking an Advanced rule is handled.
There is nothing preventing me from Deep Striking, so I go ahead and Deep Strike, correct?
Incorrect. By doing so you'd break a rule.
Just like if you moved a Tac Squad 7" in the movement phase.
What rule do I break by Deep Striking?
For reference, here are the Deep Strike Rules. What rule do I break when I perform them?
You forgot to quote a rule. Let me help you out:
Spoiler:
“If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.”
Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Warhammer 40,000.” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
Please explain how you are not breaking this rule, given the restriction from ever Swooping.
Edit: oh, and a repeat of Basic vs Advanced won't help your argument unless you actually, I dunno, explain how breaking an Advanced rule is handled.
As you've been asked before.
“If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.”
That rule doesn't happen until AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking, correct?
Zimko wrote: So to sum up THIS thread, following the rules sequentially allows one to Deep Strike a FMC. Which then leads to a conflict where a FMC is in Swoop when it is not allowed to be in Swoop and we have no rules to resolve the conflict.
The ethical thing to do is to disallow Deep Strike in this case so as to not give a player an advantage that may not have been intended by the rules.
The RAW thing to do is nothing... because there's no rule on how to resolve the conflict.
I disagree in the conclusion - any game relies on "break no rule unless told" - so you cannot here intentionally break th rules, which is what col is requiring. They won't state it, but that is the truth as evaluated here.
Zimko wrote: So to sum up THIS thread, following the rules sequentially allows one to Deep Strike a FMC. Which then leads to a conflict where a FMC is in Swoop when it is not allowed to be in Swoop and we have no rules to resolve the conflict.
The ethical thing to do is to disallow Deep Strike in this case so as to not give a player an advantage that may not have been intended by the rules.
The RAW thing to do is nothing... because there's no rule on how to resolve the conflict.
I disagree in the conclusion - any game relies on "break no rule unless told" - so you cannot here intentionally break th rules, which is what col is requiring. They won't state it, but that is the truth as evaluated here.
There is no rule being broken. A conflict emerges between sources and we have a rule to sort that out.
You guys are going all over the place with talk of ethics, non-sequential, and stuff that isn't in the BRB. Let's follow the rules as they are written, okay? No babies will be aborted in the process.
There is no conflict, as pointed out. You can meet both requirements,
I note you still refuse to cite your permission. So I will assume you cannot, and therefore failing to follow the tenets. Please mark your posts appropriately, currently they are not raw despite your claims.
nosferatu1001 wrote: There is no conflict, as pointed out. You can meet both requirements,
I note you still refuse to cite your permission. So I will assume you cannot, and therefore failing to follow the tenets. Please mark your posts appropriately, currently they are not raw despite your claims.
Okay. So Deep Strike happens. Flyrant counts as Swooping. Flyrant can only use gliding mode. I agree there is a way of reading that so that there really is no conflict. I am fine with a solution that simply has these co-exist.
Flyrant counts as Swooping.
Flyrant can only use gliding mode
There is nothing preventing me from Deep Striking, so I go ahead and Deep Strike, correct?
Incorrect. By doing so you'd break a rule.
Just like if you moved a Tac Squad 7" in the movement phase.
What rule do I break by Deep Striking?
For reference, here are the Deep Strike Rules. What rule do I break when I perform them?
You forgot to quote a rule. Let me help you out:
Spoiler:
“If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.”
Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Warhammer 40,000.” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
Please explain how you are not breaking this rule, given the restriction from ever Swooping.
Edit: oh, and a repeat of Basic vs Advanced won't help your argument unless you actually, I dunno, explain how breaking an Advanced rule is handled.
As you've been asked before.
“If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.”
That rule doesn't happen until AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking, correct?
And you've been asked before - how is the timing relevant?
Is a rule broken because you chose to Deep Strike - yes or no?
Ghaz wrote: There is no way for those two to coexist, so you must choose the one that breaks no rules. The FMC can not Deep Strike.
Okay. So you see a conflict. The conflict happens AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking. We use Basic Vs Advanced to resolve conflicts between sources.
Which is what exactly?
The Monstrous Flock rule doesn't change its Flight Mode. So how is the conflict resolved?
I don't necessarily see a conflict. Tell me exactly how these rules conflict.
Flyrant counts as Swooping.
Flyrant can only use gliding mode
Flight Mode wrote:Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding.
You can't have both.
The Monstrous Flock rule never States that a FMC Swooping changes to Gliding. It never forces or allows a change. It is simply a restriction.
What rule allows a Swooping FMC to change to Gliding?
Okay so the conflict for you is that the FMC can't have both. So per Basic Vs Advanced, the formation source either takes away the conflicting Swooping mode and puts the Flyrant into MC mode or it sets the mode to gliding mode. Strict RAW is probably the former since we have to get to the next movement phase to set the gliding mode.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Again, no conflict. Simple repetition isn't helping. Please, answer the questions posed, as do far you have a distinct lack of rules, or logic.
I am fine with the consequence of what you are saying - that there is no conflict.
So Deep Strike happens. Flyrant counts as Swooping. Flyrant can only use gliding mode. I agree there is a way of reading that so that there really is no conflict. I am fine with a solution that simply has these co-exist.
Flyrant counts as Swooping.
Flyrant can only use gliding mode
col_impact wrote: Okay so the conflict for you is that the FMC can't have both.
That's an actual rule, I just quoted it.
So per Basic Vs Advanced, the formation source either takes away the conflicting Swooping mode and puts the Flyrant into MC mode or it sets the mode to gliding mode. Strict RAW is probably the former since we have to get to the next movement phase to set the gliding mode.
Yet the rule doesn't state that it takes it away or replaces the Flight Mode.
The rule gives no way to resolve the conflict.
By choosing to Deep Strike, you create an impossible situation that the rules don't cover, where you break one of two rules no matter what you choose.
The only legal option, is to choose NOT to Deep Strike. That is the only option that breaks no rules.
col_impact wrote: Okay so the conflict for you is that the FMC can't have both.
That's an actual rule, I just quoted it.
So per Basic Vs Advanced, the formation source either takes away the conflicting Swooping mode and puts the Flyrant into MC mode or it sets the mode to gliding mode. Strict RAW is probably the former since we have to get to the next movement phase to set the gliding mode.
Yet the rule doesn't state that it takes it away or replaces the Flight Mode.
The rule gives no way to resolve the conflict.
By choosing to Deep Strike, you create an impossible situation that the rules don't cover, where you break one of two rules no matter what you choose.
The only legal option, is to choose NOT to Deep Strike. That is the only option that breaks no rules.
Spoiler:
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override
any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a
model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that
model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does
not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions,
a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex.
Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always
takes precedence.
If the Flyrant has a rule per MF that it "can only use Gliding mode" then "can only use" will take precedence over the BRBFMC rule per the Basic Vs Advanced Rule and take the Flyrant out of Swooping mode.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Again, no conflict. Simple repetition isn't helping. Please, answer the questions posed, as do far you have a distinct lack of rules, or logic.
I am fine with the consequence of what you are saying - that there is no conflict.
So Deep Strike happens. Flyrant counts as Swooping. Flyrant can only use gliding mode. I agree there is a way of reading that so that there really is no conflict. I am fine with a solution that simply has these co-exist.
Flyrant counts as Swooping.
Flyrant can only use gliding mode
There is no conflict as per dealing with conflicts. There is a rule being broken, either way
nosferatu1001 wrote: Again, no conflict. Simple repetition isn't helping. Please, answer the questions posed, as do far you have a distinct lack of rules, or logic.
I am fine with the consequence of what you are saying - that there is no conflict.
So Deep Strike happens. Flyrant counts as Swooping. Flyrant can only use gliding mode. I agree there is a way of reading that so that there really is no conflict. I am fine with a solution that simply has these co-exist.
Flyrant counts as Swooping.
Flyrant can only use gliding mode
There is no conflict as per dealing with conflicts. There is a rule being broken, either way
Okay so the conflict for you is that the FMC can't have both. So per Basic Vs Advanced, the formation source either takes away the conflicting Swooping mode and puts the Flyrant into MC mode or it sets the mode to gliding mode. Strict RAW is probably the former since we have to get to the next movement phase to set the gliding mode.
Actually, it's not "the conflict for you" - it's the conflict.
There is no rule in the formation removing Swooping.
There is no rule in the formation setting a FMC to Gliding.
Please cite an actual rule to support your "strict RAW" statement - what rule removes the Swooping mode, and what mode would the FMC be in?
nosferatu1001 wrote: Again, no conflict. Simple repetition isn't helping. Please, answer the questions posed, as do far you have a distinct lack of rules, or logic.
I am fine with the consequence of what you are saying - that there is no conflict.
So Deep Strike happens. Flyrant counts as Swooping. Flyrant can only use gliding mode. I agree there is a way of reading that so that there really is no conflict. I am fine with a solution that simply has these co-exist.
Flyrant counts as Swooping.
Flyrant can only use gliding mode
There is no conflict as per dealing with conflicts. There is a rule being broken, either way
Refusal what, four now?
What is the rule that is being broken?
DS or the formation rule, depending on which one you try to comply with. You know this, so please for the FIFTH time, give answering a go?
nosferatu1001 wrote: Again, no conflict. Simple repetition isn't helping. Please, answer the questions posed, as do far you have a distinct lack of rules, or logic.
I am fine with the consequence of what you are saying - that there is no conflict.
So Deep Strike happens. Flyrant counts as Swooping. Flyrant can only use gliding mode. I agree there is a way of reading that so that there really is no conflict. I am fine with a solution that simply has these co-exist.
Flyrant counts as Swooping.
Flyrant can only use gliding mode
There is no conflict as per dealing with conflicts. There is a rule being broken, either way
Refusal what, four now?
What is the rule that is being broken?
DS or the formation rule, depending on which one you try to comply with. You know this, so please for the FIFTH time, give answering a go?
You need to state your problem clearly. How is the Deep Strike rule being broken?
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override
any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a
model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that
model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does
not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions,
a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex.
Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always
takes precedence.
If the Flyrant has a rule per MF that it "can only use Gliding mode" then "can only use" will take precedence over the BRBFMC rule per the Basic Vs Advanced Rule and take the Flyrant out of Swooping mode.
Im familiar with the Basic Vs. Advance rule, you don't have to keep repeating it.
Yet the rule in question doesn't give a resolution to the conflict. You're taking 1+1 and getting 3.
It can only Glide yet gives no indication on how it interacts with a rule that forces Swooping. It's an assumption that it will force Gliding on a FMC that must be Swooping, the rule never States it.
Okay so the conflict for you is that the FMC can't have both. So per Basic Vs Advanced, the formation source either takes away the conflicting Swooping mode and puts the Flyrant into MC mode or it sets the mode to gliding mode. Strict RAW is probably the former since we have to get to the next movement phase to set the gliding mode.
Actually, it's not "the conflict for you" - it's the conflict.
There is no rule in the formation removing Swooping.
There is no rule in the formation setting a FMC to Gliding.
Please cite an actual rule to support your "strict RAW" statement - what rule removes the Swooping mode, and what mode would the FMC be in?
Spoiler:
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override
any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a
model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that
model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does
not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions,
a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex.
Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always
takes precedence.
If the Flyrant has a rule per MF that it "can only use Gliding mode" then "can only use" will take precedence over the BRBFMC rule per the Basic Vs Advanced Rule and take the Flyrant out of Swooping mode.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Again, no conflict. Simple repetition isn't helping. Please, answer the questions posed, as do far you have a distinct lack of rules, or logic.
I am fine with the consequence of what you are saying - that there is no conflict.
So Deep Strike happens. Flyrant counts as Swooping. Flyrant can only use gliding mode. I agree there is a way of reading that so that there really is no conflict. I am fine with a solution that simply has these co-exist.
Flyrant counts as Swooping.
Flyrant can only use gliding mode
There is no conflict as per dealing with conflicts. There is a rule being broken, either way
Refusal what, four now?
What is the rule that is being broken?
DS or the formation rule, depending on which one you try to comply with. You know this, so please for the FIFTH time, give answering a go?
You need to state your problem clearly. How is the Deep Strike rule being broken?
Done playing your games, you are aware of the issue, and your failure to argue honestly is noted.
You're done here. RAW you must break no rule, therefore cannot try to DS with this formation.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Again, no conflict. Simple repetition isn't helping. Please, answer the questions posed, as do far you have a distinct lack of rules, or logic.
I am fine with the consequence of what you are saying - that there is no conflict.
So Deep Strike happens. Flyrant counts as Swooping. Flyrant can only use gliding mode. I agree there is a way of reading that so that there really is no conflict. I am fine with a solution that simply has these co-exist.
Flyrant counts as Swooping.
Flyrant can only use gliding mode
There is no conflict as per dealing with conflicts. There is a rule being broken, either way
Refusal what, four now?
What is the rule that is being broken?
DS or the formation rule, depending on which one you try to comply with. You know this, so please for the FIFTH time, give answering a go?
You need to state your problem clearly. How is the Deep Strike rule being broken?
Done playing your games, you are aware of the issue, and your failure to argue honestly is noted.
You're done here. RAW you must break no rule, therefore cannot try to DS with this formation.
I ask you to state your problem clearly and you refuse to do so. You are the one that is done here, sir.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override
any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a
model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that
model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does
not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions,
a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex.
Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always
takes precedence.
If the Flyrant has a rule per MF that it "can only use Gliding mode" then "can only use" will take precedence over the BRBFMC rule per the Basic Vs Advanced Rule and take the Flyrant out of Swooping mode.
Im familiar with the Basic Vs. Advance rule, you don't have to keep repeating it.
Yet the rule in question doesn't give a resolution to the conflict. You're taking 1+1 and getting 3.
It can only Glide yet gives no indication on how it interacts with a rule that forces Swooping. It's an assumption that it will force Gliding on a FMC that must be Swooping, the rule never States it.
I am not saying that it has to force Gliding on the Flyrant. Basic Versus Advanced will kick in to resolve any contradictions. Minimally that means removing Swooping mode.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nosferatu1001 wrote: The problem was stated many times, clearly, and you deflect instead of answering.
7 pages in and your argument is still as watertight as a colander.
You are the one that is deflecting. State clearly the rule that is being broken or the problem you are having. If you cannot state things clearly then you should ask yourself if you have the ability to participate in debates.
col_impact wrote: I am not saying that it has to force Gliding on the Flyrant. Basic Versus Advanced will kick in to resolve any contradictions. Minimally that means removing Swooping mode.
Yet the rule never tells you to remove it. It simply imposes a restriction.
There is no conflict resolution in that rule.
col_impact wrote: I am not saying that it has to force Gliding on the Flyrant. Basic Versus Advanced will kick in to resolve any contradictions. Minimally that means removing Swooping mode.
Yet the rule never tells you to remove it. It simply imposes a restriction.
There is no conflict resolution in that rule.
The rule says "override" and "take precedence". That's a hammer.
col_impact wrote: I am not saying that it has to force Gliding on the Flyrant. Basic Versus Advanced will kick in to resolve any contradictions. Minimally that means removing Swooping mode.
Yet the rule never tells you to remove it. It simply imposes a restriction.
There is no conflict resolution in that rule.
Indeed, and this is quite clear. Not sure how this is tricky.
Since you obviously haven’t been paying attention, from the ‘Skytyrant Swarm’ formation rules…
Monstrous Flock:
The Hive Tyrant cannot leave the unit during the battle, and can only use the Gliding Flight mode.
… and from the Flying Monstrous Creatures rules:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
Now answer the question you’ve so far refused to answer. If you Deep Strike you’re Swooping and thus breaking the ‘Monstrous Flock’ rule. If you Deep Strike and claim you’re in Gliding Flight mode you’ve broken the ‘Flying Monstrous Creatures’ rule. So for the umpteenth time, how can the FMC Deep Strike and not break either rule?
Ghaz wrote: Since you obviously haven’t been paying attention, from the ‘Skytyrant Swarm’ formation rules…
Monstrous Flock:
The Hive Tyrant cannot leave the unit during the battle, and can only use the Gliding Flight mode.
… and from the Flying Monstrous Creatures rules:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
Now answer the question you’ve so far refused to answer. If you Deep Strike you’re Swooping and thus breaking the ‘Monstrous Flock’ rule. If you Deep Strike and claim you’re in Gliding Flight mode you’ve broken the ‘Flying Monstrous Creatures’ rule. So for the umpteenth time, how can the FMC Deep Strike and not break either rule?
col_impact wrote: I am not saying that it has to force Gliding on the Flyrant. Basic Versus Advanced will kick in to resolve any contradictions. Minimally that means removing Swooping mode.
Yet the rule never tells you to remove it. It simply imposes a restriction.
There is no conflict resolution in that rule.
Indeed, and this is quite clear. Not sure how this is tricky.
If there is no conflict for you and the rules can co-exist, then what is your problem?
Deep Strike happens. Flyrant counts as Swooping. Flyrant can only use gliding mode.
col_impact wrote: I am not saying that it has to force Gliding on the Flyrant. Basic Versus Advanced will kick in to resolve any contradictions. Minimally that means removing Swooping mode.
Yet the rule never tells you to remove it. It simply imposes a restriction.
There is no conflict resolution in that rule.
Indeed, and this is quite clear. Not sure how this is tricky.
If there is no conflict for you and the rules can co-exist, then what is your problem?
Deep Strike happens. Flyrant counts as Swooping. Flyrant can only use gliding mode.
You misread.
There's a conflict. There's no conflict resolution.
Your argument is based on an assumption of what should happen rather than any actual rules.
Ghaz wrote: Since you obviously haven’t been paying attention, from the ‘Skytyrant Swarm’ formation rules…
Monstrous Flock:
The Hive Tyrant cannot leave the unit during the battle, and can only use the Gliding Flight mode.
… and from the Flying Monstrous Creatures rules:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
Now answer the question you’ve so far refused to answer. If you Deep Strike you’re Swooping and thus breaking the ‘Monstrous Flock’ rule. If you Deep Strike and claim you’re in Gliding Flight mode you’ve broken the ‘Flying Monstrous Creatures’ rule. So for the umpteenth time, how can the FMC Deep Strike and not break either rule?
Deep Strike happens. AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking this rule applies Swooping mode.
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
If that BRB rule is in conflict with a more Advanced rule, we know what to do. The rules TELL US to apply the Basic Vs Advanced Rule in these situations.
col_impact wrote: I am not saying that it has to force Gliding on the Flyrant. Basic Versus Advanced will kick in to resolve any contradictions. Minimally that means removing Swooping mode.
Yet the rule never tells you to remove it. It simply imposes a restriction.
There is no conflict resolution in that rule.
Indeed, and this is quite clear. Not sure how this is tricky.
If there is no conflict for you and the rules can co-exist, then what is your problem?
Deep Strike happens. Flyrant counts as Swooping. Flyrant can only use gliding mode.
You misread.
There's a conflict. There's no conflict resolution.
Your argument is based on an assumption of what should happen rather than any actual rules.
I am the one working step by step through the rules and quoting rules and justifying each step with rules.
col_impact wrote: Deep Strike happens. AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking this rule applies Swooping mode.
Which again, makes no difference. You've still performed a voluntary action that causes a rule to be broken. So again, how do you Deep Strike without causing any rule to be broken.
You've failed to show conflict resolution. You just asserted what should happen with no evidence as to why (other than we should trust you?). You've also failed, repeatedly, to show why your timing argument is relevant. A rule is broken because of a decision. Why are you allowed to choose to break a rule there, but moving 7" with a Tac Squad is right out?
col_impact wrote: Deep Strike happens. AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking this rule applies Swooping mode.
Which again, makes no difference. You've still performed a voluntary action that causes a rule to be broken. So again, how do you Deep Strike without causing any rule to be broken.
Deep Strike happens without breaking any rule. There is a rule conflict in the FMC rules and the MF rules about what happens AFTER the Deep Strike. The rules TELL US what to do in those situations (Basic Vs Advanced).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rigeld2 wrote: You've failed to show conflict resolution. You just asserted what should happen with no evidence as to why (other than we should trust you?). You've also failed, repeatedly, to show why your timing argument is relevant. A rule is broken because of a decision. Why are you allowed to choose to break a rule there, but moving 7" with a Tac Squad is right out?
A rules conflct between sources happens AFTER the Deep Strike. Per the rules, we implement the Basic Vs Advanced Rule to resolve any conflict.
Vote for letting it die? A refusal to engage honestly for 7 pages is quite telling.
I have resolved the issue step by step using the rules all the way. If I am debating RAW with people who don't adhere to the rules or the logic of the rules or are being obtuse and entrenched, then I can't help but be repetitive.
The problem with your counter-argument is that you are trying to prevent the Deep Strike from happening with a conflict that arises AFTER the Deep Strike has happened. Nothing prevents the player from Deep Striking. So it isn't until AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking that a conflict can be acted upon. The rules don't let us undo steps that have happened to repair the game state. The rules TELL US to resolve conflicts with Advanced over Basic Rules.
col_impact wrote: Deep Strike happens without breaking any rule. There is a rule conflict in the FMC rules and the MF rules about what happens AFTER the Deep Strike. The rules TELL US what to do in those situations (Basic Vs Advanced).
Patently false. The rule quoted applies when the FMC "arrives", not "after arriving". Deep Striking the Hive Tyrant breaks the rules. On top of that, there is no conflict. There is no 'must' versus 'must'. A voluntary action will always be disallowed if it breaks a rule.
col_impact wrote: Deep Strike happens without breaking any rule. There is a rule conflict in the FMC rules and the MF rules about what happens AFTER the Deep Strike. The rules TELL US what to do in those situations (Basic Vs Advanced).
Patently false. The rule quoted applies when the FMC "arrives", not "after arriving". Deep Striking the Hive Tyrant breaks the rules. On top of that, there is no conflict. There is no 'must' versus 'must'. A voluntary action will always be disallowed if it breaks a rule.
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode."
There is no ambiguity in that sentence. The FMC has to have indeed Deep Struck in for the latter part of the rule to apply.
There is no rule that says "In order for a Flying Monstrous Creature to arrive via Deep Strike Reserve, it must arrive in Swooping mode."
I do not think this point of discussion can be accurately described as "basic versus advanced" as that is not the issue really.
the deep strike rules for a FMC state they always count as being in swooping mode.
the rules for skytyrant state it can "only use gliding mode"
there is no actual conflict here, as the skytyrant rules do not give an exception to being able to only use gliding mode despite being required to be swooping.
in otherwords:
stating something my do something optional that requires it to always be in state 1 when it can only be in state 0, means it cannot do it.
to say that it can is the same as saying that the hive tyrant can count all the benefits for being in swooping mode each turn but counts as gliding.
there is just no rules support that the HT may DS in this situation.
If the skytyrant rule said something about DS in reference to always only gliding, then it would indeed be a case of basic versus advanced, but the omission of that means it cannot be said that this is an argument of basic versus advanced.
blaktoof wrote: I do not think this point of discussion can be accurately described as "basic versus advanced" as that is not the issue really.
the deep strike rules for a FMC state they always count as being in swooping mode.
the rules for skytyrant state it can "only use gliding mode"
there is no actual conflict here, as the skytyrant rules do not give an exception to being able to only use gliding mode despite being required to be swooping.
in otherwords:
stating something my do something optional that requires it to always be in state 1 when it can only be in state 0, means it cannot do it.
to say that it can is the same as saying that the hive tyrant can count all the benefits for being in swooping mode each turn but counts as gliding.
there is just no rules support that the HT may DS in this situation.
If the skytyrant rule said something about DS in reference to always only gliding, then it would indeed be a case of basic versus advanced, but the omission of that means it cannot be said that this is an argument of basic versus advanced.
because its not.
The Deep Strike is in no ways dependent on a Flight mode. The Deep Strike is allowed to happen. It happens. Resolving the internal rules step by step of the Deep Strike in no ways depend on Swooping. AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking a rule kicks in and a Flight mode is attempted to be applied. It's debatable whether a conflict arises. If there is a conflict, we know what to do per the rules.
col_impact wrote: The Deep Strike is in no ways dependent on a Flight mode. The Deep Strike is allowed to happen. It happens. Resolving the internal rules step by step of the Deep Strike in no ways depend on Swooping. AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking a rule kicks in and a Flight mode is attempted to be applied. It's debatable whether a conflict arises. If there is a conflict, we know what to do per the rules.
Utterly false. The Deep Strike is dependent on the flight mode. If you can't Swoop you can't Deep Strike because Deep Striking forces you into a flight mode you're not allowed to use. You can't voluntarily break a rule which is exactly what you're trying to do, and the 'Basic versus Advanced' rule does not cover the situation because the 'Monstrous Flock' rule does not allow the Hive Tyrant to Glide in a situation where he must Swoop.
col_impact wrote: The Deep Strike is in no ways dependent on a Flight mode. The Deep Strike is allowed to happen. It happens. Resolving the internal rules step by step of the Deep Strike in no ways depend on Swooping. AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking a rule kicks in and a Flight mode is attempted to be applied. It's debatable whether a conflict arises. If there is a conflict, we know what to do per the rules.
Utterly false. The Deep Strike is dependent on the flight mode. If you can't Swoop you can't Deep Strike because Deep Striking forces you into a flight mode you're not allowed to use. You can't voluntarily break a rule which is exactly what you're trying to do, and the 'Basic versus Advanced' rule does not cover the situation because the 'Monstrous Flock' rule does not allow the Hive Tyrant to Glide in a situation where he must Swoop.
Work step by step through the Deep Strike rules and show me where Swooping matters. Swooping is applied AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking by an FMC rule.
I Deep Strike because nothing is forbidding me from Deep Striking. I work all the way through the Deep Strike rules and resolve Deep Striking. An FMC rule kicks in AFTER THE DEEP STRIKE and tries to apply Swooping. It's debatable whether this causes a conflict. But, if there is a conflict, the rules TELL US exactly what to apply in this situation (Basic Vs Advanced rule).
Swooping matters because Deep Strike forces the FMC into Swooping mode.
If the FMC can not be in swooping mode then it would break a rule to try and deep strike that creature, because DS forces the FMC into a mode it is not allowed to be in...
DeathReaper wrote: Swooping matters because Deep Strike forces the FMC into Swooping mode.
If the FMC can not be in swooping mode then it would break a rule to try and deep strike that creature, because DS forces the FMC into a mode it is not allowed to be in...
The Deep Striking rule does not force the FMC into a flight mode. AFTER the Deep Strike happens, an FMC rule attempts to put the FMC into Swooping mode. If this conflicts in some way with some more advanced rule, then the rules give us express permission to handle the situation with the Basic Versus Advanced Rule.
Guys, if you want to have a counter-argument, you need to show step by step how you arrive at the argument you are advancing.
DeathReaper wrote: Swooping matters because Deep Strike forces the FMC into Swooping mode.
If the FMC can not be in swooping mode then it would break a rule to try and deep strike that creature, because DS forces the FMC into a mode it is not allowed to be in...
The Deep Striking rule does not force the FMC into a flight mode. AFTER the Deep Strike happens, an FMC rule attempts to put the FMC into Swooping mode. If this conflicts in some way with some more advanced rule, then the rules give us express permission to handle the situation with the Basic Versus Advanced Rule.
Guys, if you want to have a counter-argument, you need to show step by step how you arrive at the argument you are advancing.
it is largely irrelevant when you break the rule.
if you take actions that result in rules being broken, you can not take those actions.
AFTER the Deep Strike happens a rule is broken because of the DS action. Because of the FMC using DS they wind up breaking a rule. and that is why you can not DS because we should break no rule.
Basic Versus Advanced Rule does not enter into this situation, because the formation does not give an allowance for the MC's to break the rule of Swooping after DS.
There are two restrictions, they must both be followed, ergo no DS in the formation.
col_impact wrote: Swooping is applied AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking by an FMC rule.
Repeating the same thing ad nauseum doesn't make it true. Once again, here's the rule:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
"Arrives" is present tense. It occurs at the same time as the Deep Strike. For it to be 'after the fact' as you keep insisting the wording would have to be "... that has arrived..." Once again, you're wrong.
DeathReaper wrote: Swooping matters because Deep Strike forces the FMC into Swooping mode.
If the FMC can not be in swooping mode then it would break a rule to try and deep strike that creature, because DS forces the FMC into a mode it is not allowed to be in...
The Deep Striking rule does not force the FMC into a flight mode. AFTER the Deep Strike happens, an FMC rule attempts to put the FMC into Swooping mode. If this conflicts in some way with some more advanced rule, then the rules give us express permission to handle the situation with the Basic Versus Advanced Rule.
Guys, if you want to have a counter-argument, you need to show step by step how you arrive at the argument you are advancing.
it is largely irrelevant when you break the rule.
if you take actions that result in rules being broken, you can not take those actions.
AFTER the Deep Strike happens a rule is broken because of the DS action. Because of the FMC using DS they wind up breaking a rule. and that is why you can not DS because we should break no rule.
Basic Versus Advanced Rule does not enter into this situation, because the formation does not give an allowance for the MC's to break the rule of Swooping after DS.
There are two restrictions, they must both be followed, ergo no DS in the formation.
You need to show step by step your counter argument. There is nothing forbidding Deep Strike and when a Deep Strike happens the rules step by step come to the result that I showed.
Basic Vs Advanced is expressly allowed by the rules for these kind of situations.
Spoiler:
Basic Versus Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They
include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules
for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a
special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability
to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader
or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike,
a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated
in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games
Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override
any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a
model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that
model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does
not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions,
a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex.
Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always
takes precedence.
If you are unable to demonstrate your argument step by step with rules then you have no RAW argument.
col_impact wrote: Swooping is applied AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking by an FMC rule.
Repeating the same thing ad nauseum doesn't make it true. Once again, here's the rule:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
"Arrives" is present tense. It occurs at the same time as the Deep Strike. For it to be 'after the fact' as you keep insisting the wording would have to be "... that has arrived..." Once again, you're wrong.
If it arrives it has indeed Deep Struck. It would have to say "is arriving." You don't assign Swooping to a unit that fails to Deep Strike onto the board. This is basic and obvious that the Deep Strike needs to resolve before the unit can be acted upon with other rules.
Again, you seem to be acting upon a rule that you have made up.
"In order for an FMC to arrive via Deep Strike, it must arrive by Swooping"
That rule does not exist.
Feel free to work step by step through the rules and advance a counter argument. I am the only one so far who has advanced a full RAW argument.
col_impact wrote: You need to show step by step your counter argument. There is nothing forbidding Deep Strike and when a Deep Strike happens the rules step by step come to the result that I showed. .
Your arguments are incorrect.
Step by step counter argument? not needed, these facts below will show that you break a rule if you try to use the deep strike rules for the FMC in the formation.
There is something forbidding the DS.
The fact that the FMC needs to be in swooping mode and can not be in swooping mode.
When "a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode." (Unit Types chapter, Flying Monstrous Creatures section, Deployment sub-section)
The rules for the formation say that only gliding mode can be chosen.
The Winged Hive Tyrant cannot swoop during the battle, only glide...
Ergo, when "a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode." breaks the rule of The Winged Hive Tyrant cannot swoop during the battle... then a Flying Monstrous Creature can not arrive via Deep Strike Reserve, since it always counts as being in Swooping mode when it does.
col_impact wrote: You need to show step by step your counter argument. There is nothing forbidding Deep Strike and when a Deep Strike happens the rules step by step come to the result that I showed.
.
Your arguments are incorrect.
Step by step counter argument? not needed, these facts below will show that you break a rule if you try to use the deep strike rules for the FMC in the formation.
There is something forbidding the DS.
The fact that the FMC needs to be in swooping mode and can not be in swooping mode.
When "a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode." (This is true)
The rules for the formation say that only gliding mode can be chosen.
The Winged Hive Tyrant cannot swoop during the battle, only glide...
Ergo, when "a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode." breaks the rule of The Winged Hive Tyrant cannot swoop during the battle... then a Flying Monstrous Creature can not arrive via Deep Strike Reserve, since it always counts as being in Swooping mode when it does.
I have shown step by step that my argument works and is justified by the rules. Therefore it is proven and sound
You refuse to show your argument step by step. Therefore your argument is unproven and possibly unsound.
I didn't want to wade back into an argument that has become so ridiculous, but I am curious if anyone addressed a concern of mine: If the Deep Strike Special Rule is being over-ridden, how is the Rule still being applied?
Putting aside the fact this does not meet the requirements of 'conflict' as far as this site is concerned, I am going to have to raise that point once more. If we are to apply Advanced Vs Basic to this situation, then we will need to do exactly what Basic vs Advanced informs us to do and no more. It allows us to over-ride a Rule which has created the conflict, it doesn't say that we have permission to over-write part of a Rule as it does not state to over-ride just the instructions creating the conflict. If the instruction creating the conflict is found within the Deep Strike Special Rule then we would have to over-write the Deep Strike Special Rule....
So how do we have a Deep Strike Special Rule to apply to the situation?
JinxDragon wrote: I didn't want to wade back into an argument that has become so ridiculous, but I am curious if anyone addressed a concern of mine:
If the Deep Strike Special Rule is being over-ridden, how is the Rule still being applied?
Putting aside the fact this does not meet the requirements of 'conflict' as far as this site is concerned, I am going to have to raise that point once more. If we are to apply Advanced Vs Basic to this situation, then we will need to do exactly what Basic vs Advanced informs us to do and no more. It allows us to over-ride a Rule which has created the conflict, it doesn't say that we have permission to over-write part of a Rule as it does not state to over-ride just the instructions creating the conflict. If the instruction creating the conflict is found within the Deep Strike Special Rule then we would have to over-write the Deep Strike Special Rule....
So how do we have a Deep Strike Special Rule to apply to the situation?
The Deep Strike Special Rule is not being over-ridden. Deep Strike happens without a problem. If there is a conflict it happens after the Deep Strike.
This is the rule that would be overridden by the MF rule (can only glide) per the Basic Vs Advanced Rule.
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode."
JinxDragon, feel free to work through step by step a counter-argument.
Keep in mind there are also other areas on the FMC entry that the Flyrant MF rule would have to hammer.
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn.
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or
Gliding.
The "conflict" is caused because of a clause found in the Deep Strike Special Rule, is it not correct to state that we wouldn't have a problem if it wasn't for the existence of that one clause?
grendel083 wrote: "Arrives" is present tense, not past tense.
It happens while its arriving from Deep Strike, not after.
Otherwise it would be "arrived".
I think you need to focus on what arrives means. It means its there because it has Deep Struck there.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JinxDragon wrote: The "conflict" is caused because of a clause found in the Deep Strike Special Rule, if that set of instructions did not exist there would be no problem correct?
What clause in the Deep Strike rule?
Keep in mind there are also other areas on the FMC entry that the Flyrant MF rule would have to hammer.
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.
Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding.
I have shown step by step that my argument works and is justified by the rules. Therefore it is proven and sound
This is, of course, 100% false.
You have not shown where the allowance to switch from swooping to gliding is in the rules.
Care to cite the rule that states you can glide when deep Striking?
Man you are off in your own world. Deep Strike does not require swooping or gliding. If it did, I don't know how Terminators would ever Deep Strike.
Never said Deep Strike requires swooping or gliding...
However it is a fact that If a FMC performs a Deep Strike and it "arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode." (Unit Types chapter, Flying Monstrous Creatures section, Deployment sub-section)
So Swooping mode is an intrinsic part of a FMC deep striking. It is required to be in Swooping mode when it arrives via Deep Strike Reserve.
Something that can not be achieved with the formation.
Ergo, saying that your arguments are "justified by the rules" is 100% false.
col_impact wrote: Man you are off in your own world. Deep Strike does not require swooping or gliding. If it did, I don't know how Terminators would ever Deep Strike.
He never claimed it was required.
But while arriving from Deep Strike (present tense) the FMC is made to be Swooping.
MF rule forbids it Swooping, but gives no indication how to fix this conflict. Game breaks. Staying in Swoop breaks the MF rule, going into Glide breaks FMC rule.
Only legal course, choose not to Deep Strike.
Once arrives happens, the unit is there on the board, having Deep Struck in. This is basic reading comprehension and semantics.
It doesn't say "once arrives happens"', or "has arrived". You're adding a time frame not present in the rules.
col_impact wrote: Man you are off in your own world. Deep Strike does not require swooping or gliding. If it did, I don't know how Terminators would ever Deep Strike.
He never claimed it was required.
But while arriving from Deep Strike (present tense) the FMC is made to be Swooping.
MF rule forbids it Swooping, but gives no indication how to fix this conflict. Game breaks. Staying in Swoop breaks the MF rule, going into Glide breaks FMC rule.
Only legal course, choose not to Deep Strike.
Once arrives happens, the unit is there on the board, having Deep Struck in. This is basic reading comprehension and semantics.
It doesn't say "once arrives happens"', or "has arrived". You're adding a time frame not present in the rules.
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode."
The rule speaks for itself. If you are having trouble with the semantics then there is very little chance you can follow the logic. The conditional can only be applied after resolution of Deep Strike.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So guys, I keep asking you all to come forward and produce a step by step counter argument and so far no one has come forward to produce such an argument.
Does this mean your counter argument falls apart if you try to actually resolve it logically step by step?
I think it does.
Feel free to prove me wrong.
Remember this is a sequential rules based game we are playing so its kind of a big deal if you cant actually resolve your argument logically step by step.
Kind of a big deal.
Yep.
Unlike some of you, I am not entrenched in my argument. If someone produces a better step by step argument than my argument I will gladly concede and adopt the then better argument. I always maintain an open mind.
JinxDragon, what say you? You are a cut above the rest in that you keep an open mind and don't become entrenched and obtuse. You got a better step by step argument than mine?
col_impact wrote: If you are having trouble with the semantics then there is very little chance you can follow the logic.
Insulting anyone that disagrees? Classy.
So guys, I keep asking you all to come forward and produce a step by step counter argument and so far no one has come forward to produce such an argument.
You've had many such answers. You have just ignored them. Scroll back, read a few that you dodged.
You don't answer questions, you dodge any point you don't agree with, insist on step by step where previously you opposed it. You're rude and impossible to have any reasonable debate with. Not even slightly open-minded.
It's not that people don't have answers, it's that they're tired of answering you. No more.
rigeld2 wrote: You've failed to show conflict resolution. You just asserted what should happen with no evidence as to why (other than we should trust you?). You've also failed, repeatedly, to show why your timing argument is relevant. A rule is broken because of a decision. Why are you allowed to choose to break a rule there, but moving 7" with a Tac Squad is right out?
A rules conflct between sources happens AFTER the Deep Strike. Per the rules, we implement the Basic Vs Advanced Rule to resolve any conflict.
You continuously assert that the timing is relevant. It's not.
You continuously assert that BvA resolves the conflict. It doesn't.
You've failed to prove either assertion - you just repeat the same things over and over.
Col_Impact,
I ran your argument through an open mind and the best case scenario I can see is a 'No Rules to proceed, game crashes' outcome...
I will type up more of an explanation when I get to work.
col_impact wrote: I am not saying that it has to force Gliding on the Flyrant. Basic Versus Advanced will kick in to resolve any contradictions. Minimally that means removing Swooping mode.
Yet the rule never tells you to remove it. It simply imposes a restriction.
There is no conflict resolution in that rule.
Indeed, and this is quite clear. Not sure how this is tricky.
If there is no conflict for you and the rules can co-exist, then what is your problem?
Deep Strike happens. Flyrant counts as Swooping. Flyrant can only use gliding mode.
I think this sums up the complete lack of understanding.
Col_Impact, What you have done to this thread is push it towards a curiosity I have raised a few times in the past:
We currently have permission to carry out action X Outcome Y is always illegal, regardless of how it occurs Action X will end up creating Y, at some point in the future Can we complete action X?
Very few people have answered that question for me, I can't remember one doing so directly, but the general consensus is: No. There is a strong belief in a Fundamental Concept that dictates players must do everything in their power to avoid creating illegal outcomes. It is not a Rule as Written answer but it is one that you will find most players adhere to and why you are encountering so much resistance explaining this idea. Personally, the very fact that I am typing out these words is testimony to how poorly written these Rules are, for one would expect these Rules to have been previewed by an Editor to ensure one of their players can not 'crash the game' at a whim. Curious how the most problems with this concept all relate to Deep Strike....
As for Rule as Written, the problem still stems from applying Basic vs Advanced. Basic vs Advanced does not grant us permission to ignore individual Clauses within a Rule, nor does it grant us permission to re-write a Rule in order to avoid the conflict. In this scenario, we end up loosing access to the Rule which grants us permission to choose a flight mode as that clause is found within the same Rule as the one creating the conflict. The next point in the time line where we are granted permission to choose a Flight Mode is when the Monster begins to Move, not even the start of the Movement Phase but the individual Model's Movement itself. This leaves us with a period where the Flying Monstrous Creature is in neither Flight Modes, which is also a violation of the Rule but one we can not resolve... we would need to create a Rule but we only have permission to remove Rules under Basic vs Advanced.
Lacking the ability to choose the correct Flight Mode at that point in time ensures we end up in a black hole because we can never select the Flight Mode required by the Restriction....
As for the other issues, such as selecting to Swoop when the choice is given? Just much faster trip into the black hole, it is only when you choose the option that does not create the conflict that you by-pass the issue entirely.
rigeld2 wrote: You've failed to show conflict resolution. You just asserted what should happen with no evidence as to why (other than we should trust you?). You've also failed, repeatedly, to show why your timing argument is relevant. A rule is broken because of a decision. Why are you allowed to choose to break a rule there, but moving 7" with a Tac Squad is right out?
A rules conflct between sources happens AFTER the Deep Strike. Per the rules, we implement the Basic Vs Advanced Rule to resolve any conflict.
You continuously assert that the timing is relevant. It's not.
You continuously assert that BvA resolves the conflict. It doesn't.
You've failed to prove either assertion - you just repeat the same things over and over.
The issue revolves around one rule. A rule that has a conditional. The conditional gets triggered at a certain logical step in the game. What is that point in the game?
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode."
The BRB explicitly tells us how to resolve conflicts between sources.
"Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules."
So you are obtusely refusing to provide a step by step argument when a rule has a conditional and has a timing, and you are obtusely refusing to accept the plain Basic Versus Advanced Rule.
Since I am the only one who has advanced a step by step RAW argument so far, my RAW argument remains unchallenged.
Guys, feel free to actually participate here. I do have an open mind. But, you have to show step by step how the problem actually plays out in the game. I eagerly await your step by step arguments.
JinxDragon wrote: Col_Impact,
What you have done to this thread is push it towards a curiosity I have raised a few times in the past:
We currently have permission to carry out action X
Outcome Y is always illegal, regardless of how it occurs
Action X will end up creating Y, at some point in the future
Can we complete action X?
Very few people have answered that question for me, I can't remember one doing so directly, but the general consensus is: No.
There is a strong belief in a Fundamental Concept that dictates players must do everything in their power to avoid creating illegal outcomes. It is not a Rule as Written answer but it is one that you will find most players adhere to and why you are encountering so much resistance explaining this idea. Personally, the very fact that I am typing out these words is testimony to how poorly written these Rules are, for one would expect these Rules to have been previewed by an Editor to ensure one of their players can not 'crash the game' at a whim. Curious how the most problems with this concept all relate to Deep Strike....
As for Rule as Written, the problem still stems from applying Basic vs Advanced.
Basic vs Advanced does not grant us permission to ignore individual Clauses within a Rule, nor does it grant us permission to re-write a Rule in order to avoid the conflict. In this scenario, we end up loosing access to the Rule which grants us permission to choose a flight mode as that clause is found within the same Rule as the one creating the conflict. The next point in the time line where we are granted permission to choose a Flight Mode is when the Monster begins to Move, not even the start of the Movement Phase but the individual Model's Movement itself. This leaves us with a period where the Flying Monstrous Creature is in neither Flight Modes, which is also a violation of the Rule but one we can not resolve... we would need to create a Rule but we only have permission to remove Rules under Basic vs Advanced.
Lacking the ability to choose the correct Flight Mode at that point in time ensures we end up in a black hole because we can never select the Flight Mode required by the Restriction....
As for the other issues, such as selecting to Swoop when the choice is given?
Just much faster trip into the black hole, it is only when you choose the option that does not create the conflict that you by-pass the issue entirely.
First of all thanks for actually engaging in the discussion. I hope others follow suit.
Sounds like here you are using Basic Vs Advanced to put the Flyrant into MC default. This works and clears any problems. I am not seeing the black hole here. It steps through the problem and clears the contradiction. If you still see a black hole, could you elaborate more on what that black hole is exactly? In fact, if you read the FMC stuff about Flight Modes you should note that there is a regular gap between the end of the turn and the start of the movement phase when no Flight Mode is selected.
The Flyrant deep strikes in and moves as a MC until the next movement phase. Since it doesn't get to move any further the turn it Deep Strikes in, the only significance is losing hard to hit and jink until the next movement phase.
Also, it sounds like you are appealing to some Fundamental Concept that is not written in the game. I don't mind the inclusion of such discussion but we are straying outside of RAW, agreed?
Further, it sounds like you are agreeing with me that others have so far relied on a non-RAW concept (the Fundamental Concepts) to try to undermine my RAW argument.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
We currently have permission to carry out action X
Outcome Y is always illegal, regardless of how it occurs
Action X will end up creating Y, at some point in the future
Can we complete action X?
The rules could have provided us with a way to step back through steps until we reach a clean game state. That is certainly a possible thing to have in the BRB.
But the rules don't provide that way. When you get to Y, you clear away the rules conflict with the BvA hammer, since in this particular case it is indeed a conflict arising out of divergent sources. If we didn't have divergent sources we would not have the BvA hammer.
Keep in mind that there is nothing illegal happening per se, just a conflict that arises between sources where the player is told contradicting things.
col_impact wrote: [
Guys, feel free to actually participate here. I do have an open mind. But, you have to show step by step how the problem actually plays out in the game. I eagerly await your step by step arguments.
.
Pure Troll, right here. You have been shown that your wrong, but continue to make statements like this and copy/paste your incorrect answer. You have nothing.
col_impact wrote: [
Guys, feel free to actually participate here. I do have an open mind. But, you have to show step by step how the problem actually plays out in the game. I eagerly await your step by step arguments.
.
Pure Troll, right here. You have been shown that your wrong, but continue to make statements like this and copy/paste your incorrect answer. You have nothing.
Fragile, I suggest you look at JinxDragon's post and follow his example. He has actually accepted the challenge to work through step by step and his post brings up several things to discuss which your obtuseness is refusing to discuss.
He points out that you are relying on some Fundamental Concept that isn't in the BRB to try to undermine my RAW argument.
col_impact wrote: [ Guys, feel free to actually participate here. I do have an open mind. But, you have to show step by step how the problem actually plays out in the game. I eagerly await your step by step arguments.
.
Pure Troll, right here. You have been shown that your wrong, but continue to make statements like this and copy/paste your incorrect answer. You have nothing.
Fragile, I suggest you look at JinxDragon's post and follow his example. He has actually accepted the challenge to work through step by step and his post brings up several things to discuss which your obtuseness is refusing to discuss.
He points out that you are relying on some Fundamental Concept that isn't in the BRB to try to undermine my RAW argument.
I need do nothing more than I already have done. I have disproven your theory pages ago. Yet you ignore it and refuse to debate any points that have been brought up. The core of the rule set is that restrictions trump permission unless you have a specific exception. MF stating you cannot Swoop trumps your Deep Strike and FMC rules. You admit is yourself in previous posts and then claim there is no conflict.
JinxDragon wrote: Col_Impact,
The Model has a Rule stating it can only use Gliding Flight Mode.
What method of movement is it using to arrive on the battlefield?
It arrives on the battlefield with Deep Strike. Indeed it is only after arrival by Deep Strike that the FMC rule kicks in to apply swooping which then gets hammered by BvA.
A FMC regularly has periods of time each turn between the beginning of the turn and the movement phase where no Flight Mode is selected. The Deep Strike occurs in a similar window where no Flight Mode is selected.
Spoiler:
At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping
or Gliding until the start of its next turn.
Spoiler:
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any
further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.
col_impact wrote: [
Guys, feel free to actually participate here. I do have an open mind. But, you have to show step by step how the problem actually plays out in the game. I eagerly await your step by step arguments.
.
Pure Troll, right here. You have been shown that your wrong, but continue to make statements like this and copy/paste your incorrect answer. You have nothing.
Fragile, I suggest you look at JinxDragon's post and follow his example. He has actually accepted the challenge to work through step by step and his post brings up several things to discuss which your obtuseness is refusing to discuss.
He points out that you are relying on some Fundamental Concept that isn't in the BRB to try to undermine my RAW argument.
I need do nothing more than I already have done. I have disproven your theory pages ago. Yet you ignore it and refuse to debate any points that have been brought up. The core of the rule set is that restrictions trump permission unless you have a specific exception. MF stating you cannot Swoop trumps your Deep Strike and FMC rules. You admit is yourself in previous posts and then claim there is no conflict.
You have yet to sit down and resolve what you are claiming in a logical step by step fashion. And, when you do, make sure to take careful note of when the conditional rules in question get applied.
I will have to research your new point more, the period between the End of Turn and their next movement, but even if there is a period where they do not have a flight mode.... Why does that matter from a strict Rule as Written point of view?
The Restriction in question states the Model can only make use of the Gliding Mode This conflict allows it to remove the 'must zoom' from the equation, but still does not replace it with 'may/must glide' The Model has Arrived that turn, so it has moved / deployed onto the field This Movement / Deployment did not involve using Gliding Mode Therefore it has not met the requirement to only use Gliding Mode....
JinxDragon wrote: I will have to research your new point more, the period between the End of Turn and their next movement, but even if there is a period where they do not have a flight mode....
Why does that matter from a strict Rule as Written point of view?
The Rule states they can only use the Gliding Mode, so using anything other then Glide Mode is illegal.
Therefore this Model, Arriving by Deep Strike without Zooming as part of the process, still has not met the requirement to only use Gliding Mode as it is not Gliding....
There are two Flight Modes in the game. Swooping and Gliding. The rule is that the Flyrant "can only use the Gliding Flight Mode", meaning it cannot use the Swooping Flight Mode or any other yet to be made up Flight Mode.
The rule does not state "can only move using the Gliding Flight Mode." There is an important logical distinction between that statement and "can only use the Gliding Flight Mode."
Deep Strike does not require the use of a Flight Mode.
The Hive Tyrant cannot leave the unit during the battle, and can only use the Gliding flight mode.
While you are right it doesn't say 'while moving,' from a strict Rule as Written point of view it would mean this Model can not use any Rule bar the Gliding Flight Mode. Seeing as that is clearly not a correct reading of this Rule, I think it is reasonable that we conclude the restriction stating the Model can only use the Gliding flight mode is directly in relation to Movement itself. The Model still has permission to do other things, but whenever it encounters a Rule which would require it to move in fashion that is not Gliding then it looses access to that Rule.
So I ask again: If you have moved / deployed in a way which does not make use of the Gliding Mode, are you using only the Gliding Mode?
JinxDragon wrote: The Hive Tyrant cannot leave the unit during the battle, and can only use the Gliding flight mode.
While you are right it doesn't say 'while moving,' from a strict Rule as Written point of view it would mean this Model can not use any Rule bar the Gliding Flight Mode. Seeing as that is clearly not a correct reading of this Rule, I think it is reasonable that we conclude the restriction stating the Model can only use the Gliding flight mode is directly in relation to Movement itself. The Model still has permission to do other things, but whenever it encounters a Rule which would require it to move in fashion that is not Gliding then it looses access to that Rule.
So I ask again:
If you have moved / deployed in a way which does not make use of the Gliding Mode, are you using only the Gliding Mode?
Logic.
The rule does not say "can only move using the Gliding Flight Mode."
It says "can only use the Gliding Flight Mode"
From a strict RAW read it means it can only use the Gliding Flight Mode and not some non-Gliding Flight Mode.
Deep Strike itself does not involve using any Flight Mode. So yes it has not violated any rule since it has not used a non-Gliding Flight Mode.
When I Deep Strike, have I used any Flight Mode? In fact, for the non-Flyrant FMC, a Flight Mode is assigned after the Deep Strike, when the FMC arrives with Deep Strike.
Logic is not a Rule as Written answer, and you wanted to keep this to just the Rules as they are Written correct? That sentence, as written and applied without context would prevent us from using any Rule which is not named Gliding Mode.
If you want to state there is a context to the Rule then I will point out again that the context has to be in line with the way the Rule is normally used. Flight Modes, of any type, are an alternative method of Movement that the Model has access to, so it is easy to state that the 'logical context' of this Rule has to involve movement. Therefore, this Restriction prevents the Model from accessing any Movement Type which is not the one listed within the Rule. If they do move via any other method they have violated this rule, as they can not honestly state they have only used the Gliding Flight Mode.
They have use Gliding + however they Moved prior....
JinxDragon wrote: Logic is not a Rule as Written answer, and you wanted to keep this to just the Rules as they are Written correct?
That sentence, as written and applied without context would prevent us from using any Rule which is not named Gliding Mode.
If you want to state there is a context to the Rule then I will point out again that the context has to be in line with the way the Rule is normally used. Flight Modes, of any type, are an alternative method of Movement that the Model has access to, so it is easy to state that the 'logical context' of this Rule has to involve movement. Therefore, this Restriction prevents the Model from accessing any Movement Type which is not the one listed within the Rule. If they do move via any other method they have violated this rule, as they can not honestly state they have only used the Gliding Flight Mode.
They have use Gliding + however they Moved prior....
I was pointing out that there was a logical problem with what you are saying.
I am claiming RAW.
From a strict RAW read it means it can only use the Gliding Flight Mode and not some non-Gliding Flight Mode.
You are committing the logical fallacy of conflation.
You are conflating these two different statements
"can only move using the Gliding Flight Mode."
"can only use the Gliding Flight Mode"
You are not permitted to throw in a "while moving" to the rule in some appeal to context. That is reading into the rule.
As long as I do not use some non-Gliding Flight Mode I have literally satisfied the rule.
col_impact wrote: [
You are not permitted to throw in a "while moving" to the rule in some appeal to context. That is reading into the rule.
As long as I do not use some non-Gliding Flight Mode I have literally satisfied the rule.
Which is violated by Swooping when Deep Striking. You cannot escape that.
The Deep Strike itself does not involve a Flight Mode. After the Deep Strike a Flight Mode is assigned by the FMC which conflicts with the MF rule. BvA resolves that conflict per the rules.
Also, please follow along with the actual conversation we are having at this point. BvA has been applied at this point in our discussion and we are sorting out whether there is a black hole.
col_impact wrote: [
You are not permitted to throw in a "while moving" to the rule in some appeal to context. That is reading into the rule.
As long as I do not use some non-Gliding Flight Mode I have literally satisfied the rule.
Which is violated by Swooping when Deep Striking. You cannot escape that.
The Deep Strike itself does not involve a Flight Mode. After the Deep Strike a Flight Mode is assigned by the FMC which conflicts with the MF rule. BvA resolves that conflict per the rules.
Also, please follow along with the actual conversation we are having at this point. BvA has been applied at this point in our discussion and we are sorting out whether there is a black hole.
(Emphasis mine)
Stop stating the underlined, it is not true at all.
col_impact wrote: [
You are not permitted to throw in a "while moving" to the rule in some appeal to context. That is reading into the rule.
As long as I do not use some non-Gliding Flight Mode I have literally satisfied the rule.
Which is violated by Swooping when Deep Striking. You cannot escape that.
The Deep Strike itself does not involve a Flight Mode. After the Deep Strike a Flight Mode is assigned by the FMC which conflicts with the MF rule. BvA resolves that conflict per the rules.
Also, please follow along with the actual conversation we are having at this point. BvA has been applied at this point in our discussion and we are sorting out whether there is a black hole.
(Emphasis mine)
Stop stating the underlined, it is not true at all.
I keep stating it because it is true. The BvA is what the BRB provides as a way to resolve conflicts between sources.
You seem only obtuse in your insistence that I cannot use it. Feel free to work your way step by step through the logic of your counter argument. Obtuse declarations do not belong in this thread. Follow JinxDragon's example and actually start working through the rules.
Col_Impact, You are reading into the Rule as well, by creating a context which limits this Restriction to just the Glide and Zooming Flight Modes. The wording is "can only use the Gliding flight mode" so, if we go by a strict Rule as Written, the Model is forbidden from using any Rule which is not named 'Gliding Flight Mode.'
Should we be able to inject any sort of context into this Rule Debate, I am going to keep pointing out that the context of Flight Modes involve movement.
JinxDragon wrote: Col_Impact,
You are reading into the Rule as well, by creating a context which limits this Restriction to just the Glide and Zooming Flight Modes.
The wording is can only use the Gliding flight mode so, if we go by a strict Rule as Written, the Model is forbidden from using any Rule which is not named 'Gliding Flight Mode.'
If we are going to start injecting context I am going to keep pointing out that Flight Modes are a form of Movement so any Movement will fall under that context.
I am not reading into the rule.
Your appeal to some hyper-literal reading of the rule "the Model is forbidden from using any Rule which is not named 'Gliding Flight Mode'" as a way to give you permission to squeeze in "to move" and say it's a literal read is an abuse of logic. I don't think a single game of 40k could be played if we allowed that kind of logic abuse to happen.
col_impact wrote: I keep stating it because it is true. The BvA is what the BRB provides as a way to resolve conflicts between sources.
You seem only obtuse in your insistence that I cannot use it. Feel free to work your way step by step through the logic of your counter argument. Obtuse declarations do not belong in this thread. Follow JinxDragon's example and actually start working through the rules.
It is not true.
There is no conflict, there are two restrictions. (You have to follow both restrictions).
A conflict is a restriction and an allowance (Like Snap shots and markerlights).
col_impact wrote: I keep stating it because it is true. The BvA is what the BRB provides as a way to resolve conflicts between sources.
You seem only obtuse in your insistence that I cannot use it. Feel free to work your way step by step through the logic of your counter argument. Obtuse declarations do not belong in this thread. Follow JinxDragon's example and actually start working through the rules.
It is not true.
There is no conflict, there are two restrictions. (You have to follow both restrictions).
A conflict is a restriction and an allowance (Like Snap shots and markerlights).
So Stop saying BvA applies, It does not.
Spoiler:
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
BvA is empowered to deal with ANY CONTRADICTING basic rules.
col_impact wrote: I keep stating it because it is true. The BvA is what the BRB provides as a way to resolve conflicts between sources.
You seem only obtuse in your insistence that I cannot use it. Feel free to work your way step by step through the logic of your counter argument. Obtuse declarations do not belong in this thread. Follow JinxDragon's example and actually start working through the rules.
It is not true.
There is no conflict, there are two restrictions. (You have to follow both restrictions).
A conflict is a restriction and an allowance (Like Snap shots and markerlights).
So Stop saying BvA applies, It does not.
Spoiler:
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
BvA is empowered to deal with ANY CONTRADICTING basic rules.
There are two restrictions, there is no contradiction, you can follow both restrictions just fine.
col_impact wrote: I keep stating it because it is true. The BvA is what the BRB provides as a way to resolve conflicts between sources.
You seem only obtuse in your insistence that I cannot use it. Feel free to work your way step by step through the logic of your counter argument. Obtuse declarations do not belong in this thread. Follow JinxDragon's example and actually start working through the rules.
It is not true.
There is no conflict, there are two restrictions. (You have to follow both restrictions).
A conflict is a restriction and an allowance (Like Snap shots and markerlights).
So Stop saying BvA applies, It does not.
Spoiler:
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.
BvA is empowered to deal with ANY CONTRADICTING basic rules.
There are two restrictions, there is no contradiction, you can follow both restrictions just fine.
There is a basic rule that puts it in Swooping Mode. There is an advanced rule that says "can only use Gliding Flight Mode". Those rules give the player contradicting instructions.
Believe the very literal reading is dishonest if you wish, but you are the one wanting to leave this in the realm of 'Pure Rule as Written' with no context for the Rule. If we are to entertain the possibility that the Restriction in question contains limits not written into the Rule itself, then we have to look into what Flight Modes actually do and use that as part of the context. This means we still encounter the problem of the Model being in an 'illegal configuration' whenever it is in a situation where no flight mode is selected. As the Restriction specifically mentions we can only do something, any time we complete an action which is covered by the Rule but do not use that particular Rule we have violated such a Restriction.
As I keep asking: If you Deep Strike and are not Gliding, have you used only Glide?
JinxDragon wrote: Believe the very literal reading is dishonest if you wish, but you are the one wanting to leave this in the realm of 'Pure Rule as Written.'
I am just saying that your position on that point is simply not tenable. Slipping in "to move" in the rule would take us off a RAW discussion whether you want to admit it or not. The Pure Rule as Written argument is a strawman argument if there ever was one. I have always offered just a RAW one.
There is simply a difference between
"can only use the Gliding Flight Mode"
"can only move using the Gliding Flight Mode"
If you want to rest your whole counter-argument on conflating those two statements, then you are committing an easy to spot logical fallacy and semantic fault to do so.
Is that the only black hole you are talking about, the one that comes from reading the rule as "can only move using the Gliding Flight Mode"?
col_impact wrote: There is a basic rule that puts it in Swooping Mode. There is an advanced rule that says "can only use Gliding Flight Mode". Those rules give the player contradicting instructions.
They are not in conflict, you can adhere to both rules by not using deep strike.
If something "can only use Gliding Flight Mode" then it can not Deep Strike because Deep Strike requires the model be in Swooping mode after you deep strike.
So using the Deep Strike rule would force a rule to be broken, and as such can not be used.
col_impact wrote: There is a basic rule that puts it in Swooping Mode. There is an advanced rule that says "can only use Gliding Flight Mode". Those rules give the player contradicting instructions.
They are not in conflict, you can adhere to both rules by not using deep strike.
If something "can only use Gliding Flight Mode" then it can not Deep Strike because Deep Strike requires the model be in Swooping mode after you deep strike.
So using the Deep Strike rule would force a rule to be broken, and as such can not be used.
Nope. BvA allows
"can only use Gliding Flight Mode"
to hammer out
"If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode."
because instruction "can only use Gliding Flight Mode" contradicts instruction "counts as being in Swooping Mode" and the hammering falls under category ANY CONTRADICTION.
JinxDragon wrote: Believe the very literal reading is dishonest if you wish, but you are the one wanting to leave this in the realm of 'Pure Rule as Written.'
I am just saying that your position on that point is simply not tenable. Slipping in "to move" in the rule would take us off a RAW discussion whether you want to admit it or not. The Pure Rule as Written argument is a strawman argument if there ever was one. I have always offered just a RAW one.
There is simply a difference between
"can only use the Gliding Flight Mode"
"can only move using the Gliding Flight Mode"
If you want to rest your whole counter-argument on conflating those two statements, then you are committing an easy to spot logical fallacy and semantic fault to do so.
Is that the only black hole you are talking about, the one that comes from reading the rule as "can only move using the Gliding Flight Mode"?
There is no difference in those statements as regards to how they apply. Your logic is that you can break any rule in the game as long as you can find another rule giving you permission to do something at a later point in the events. Like firing Ordnance last on a vehicle to avoid the other weapons Snap Firing.
The entirety of your argument was that Swooping was "After the Fact." Now you are trying to create something new since that was shown incorrect. You are forbidden from Swooping. Therefore you cannot take any action that would make you Swooping, which DS does.
JinxDragon wrote: Believe the very literal reading is dishonest if you wish, but you are the one wanting to leave this in the realm of 'Pure Rule as Written.'
I am just saying that your position on that point is simply not tenable. Slipping in "to move" in the rule would take us off a RAW discussion whether you want to admit it or not. The Pure Rule as Written argument is a strawman argument if there ever was one. I have always offered just a RAW one.
There is simply a difference between
"can only use the Gliding Flight Mode"
"can only move using the Gliding Flight Mode"
If you want to rest your whole counter-argument on conflating those two statements, then you are committing an easy to spot logical fallacy and semantic fault to do so.
Is that the only black hole you are talking about, the one that comes from reading the rule as "can only move using the Gliding Flight Mode"?
There is no difference in those statements as regards to how they apply. Your logic is that you can break any rule in the game as long as you can find another rule giving you permission to do something at a later point in the events. Like firing Ordnance last on a vehicle to avoid the other weapons Snap Firing.
The entirety of your argument was that Swooping was "After the Fact." Now you are trying to create something new since that was shown incorrect. You are forbidden from Swooping. Therefore you cannot take any action that would make you Swooping, which DS does.
Your entire argument is an epic fail.
My entire argument just involves applying BvA in an appropriate situation. This is what the BRB tells us to do in these situations. If you have a problem with BvA you have a problem with the rules themselves.
You are working from some Fundamental Concept idea that isn't in the rules and that's what your hang up is. See JinxDragon's posts above.
JinxDragon wrote: Believe the very literal reading is dishonest if you wish, but you are the one wanting to leave this in the realm of 'Pure Rule as Written.'
I am just saying that your position on that point is simply not tenable. Slipping in "to move" in the rule would take us off a RAW discussion whether you want to admit it or not. The Pure Rule as Written argument is a strawman argument if there ever was one. I have always offered just a RAW one.
There is simply a difference between
"can only use the Gliding Flight Mode"
"can only move using the Gliding Flight Mode"
If you want to rest your whole counter-argument on conflating those two statements, then you are committing an easy to spot logical fallacy and semantic fault to do so.
Is that the only black hole you are talking about, the one that comes from reading the rule as "can only move using the Gliding Flight Mode"?
There is no difference in those statements as regards to how they apply. Your logic is that you can break any rule in the game as long as you can find another rule giving you permission to do something at a later point in the events. Like firing Ordnance last on a vehicle to avoid the other weapons Snap Firing.
The entirety of your argument was that Swooping was "After the Fact." Now you are trying to create something new since that was shown incorrect. You are forbidden from Swooping. Therefore you cannot take any action that would make you Swooping, which DS does.
Your entire argument is an epic fail.
My entire argument just involves applying BvA in an appropriate situation. This is what the BRB tells us to do in these situations. If you have a problem with BvA you have a problem with the rules themselves.
You are working from some Fundamental Concept idea that isn't in the rules and that's what your hang up is. See JinxDragon's posts above.
You have never applied BvA. You do not appear to understand how it applies in basic situations.
JinxDragon wrote: Believe the very literal reading is dishonest if you wish, but you are the one wanting to leave this in the realm of 'Pure Rule as Written.'
I am just saying that your position on that point is simply not tenable. Slipping in "to move" in the rule would take us off a RAW discussion whether you want to admit it or not. The Pure Rule as Written argument is a strawman argument if there ever was one. I have always offered just a RAW one.
There is simply a difference between
"can only use the Gliding Flight Mode"
"can only move using the Gliding Flight Mode"
If you want to rest your whole counter-argument on conflating those two statements, then you are committing an easy to spot logical fallacy and semantic fault to do so.
Is that the only black hole you are talking about, the one that comes from reading the rule as "can only move using the Gliding Flight Mode"?
There is no difference in those statements as regards to how they apply. Your logic is that you can break any rule in the game as long as you can find another rule giving you permission to do something at a later point in the events. Like firing Ordnance last on a vehicle to avoid the other weapons Snap Firing.
The entirety of your argument was that Swooping was "After the Fact." Now you are trying to create something new since that was shown incorrect. You are forbidden from Swooping. Therefore you cannot take any action that would make you Swooping, which DS does.
Your entire argument is an epic fail.
My entire argument just involves applying BvA in an appropriate situation. This is what the BRB tells us to do in these situations. If you have a problem with BvA you have a problem with the rules themselves.
You are working from some Fundamental Concept idea that isn't in the rules and that's what your hang up is. See JinxDragon's posts above.
You have never applied BvA. You do not appear to understand how it applies in basic situations.
If you bother to work out the problem step by step you will get a handle on it. Until that point in time you aren't really examining the problem.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JinxDragon wrote: If you do not use a Flight Mode, have you used only the Gliding Flight Mode?
You are using the hyper literal meaning of the word, which breaks Flyrant altogether. Is that your solution going forward?
If you bother to work out the problem step by step you will get a handle on it. Until that point in time you aren't really examining the problem.
You are using the hyper literal meaning of the word, which breaks Flyrant altogether. Is that your solution going forward?
See, your diverting here. You lost argument and are now trying to evade by throwing things like this in. You have done this for pages now. You cannot get around the fact that you have to Swoop when you cannot by rule.
If one wants a pure Rule as Written stance on something, then one has to accept the broken outcome which can occur is the 'Rule as Written answer.'
Every poster here knows that a pure Rule as Written stance on something may lead to a clearly broken outcome, they also accept that the possibility of this occurring is far higher then any Rule System should allow thanks to the fact we are dealing with Game Workshop here. Therefore, the answer of 'broken outcome' is a valid one when it comes to such a debate as it may be the only answer which does not involve manipulating the language used within the Rule itself.
I am going to stick with the Fundamental Concept of 'undertake no action that will lead to an illegal outcome' whenever we encounter a Rule appearing to grant us permission to break the game. All I will state is thank you for bringing me to the conclusion that this is a Fundamental Concept. While a better Rule system might be written to prevent us from simply being able to break a the game at a whim, the Rules are designed within the concept that the players are not actively trying to break the game and will therefore chose actions which do not lead to broken outcomes.
For Rule as Written does come back to this question, which really should easily be yes or no answerable: If we do not use a Flight Mode, have we used only the Gliding Flight mode?
Fragile wrote: There is no difference in those statements as regards to how they apply. Your logic is that you can break any rule in the game as long as you can find another rule giving you permission to do something at a later point in the events. Like firing Ordnance last on a vehicle to avoid the other weapons Snap Firing.
The entirety of your argument was that Swooping was "After the Fact." Now you are trying to create something new since that was shown incorrect. You are forbidden from Swooping. Therefore you cannot take any action that would make you Swooping, which DS does.
JinxDragon wrote: If one wants a pure Rule as Written stance on something, then one has to accept the broken outcome which can occur is the 'Rule as Written answer.'
Every poster here knows that a pure Rule as Written stance on something may lead to a clearly broken outcome, they also accept that the possibility of this occurring is far higher then any Rule System should allow thanks to the fact we are dealing with Game Workshop here. Therefore, the answer of 'broken outcome' is a valid one when it comes to such a debate as it may be the only answer which does not involve manipulating the language used within the Rule itself.
I am going to stick with the Fundamental Concept of 'undertake no action that will lead to an illegal outcome' whenever we encounter a Rule appearing to grant us permission to break the game. All I will state is thank you for bringing me to the conclusion that this is a Fundamental Concept. While a better Rule system might be written to prevent us from simply being able to break a the game at a whim, the Rules are designed within the concept that the players are not actively trying to break the game and will therefore chose actions which do not lead to broken outcomes.
For Rule as Written does come back to this question, which really should easily be yes or no answerable:
If we do not use a Flight Mode, have we used only the Gliding Flight mode?
If you want to go around telling people that the Flyrant can't do anything but use Gliding Flight Mode (no shooting, no psychic phase, no special rules) then be my guest. Absurd proposals are not worth wasting time discussing unless you are indeed going to follow through and make that proposal. So please go ahead and make a YMDC separate thread and let people know your finding that Flyrant can't do literally anything except Glide. Let's stick to discussing the non-absurd.
So until I see you follow through with your discovery and spread the word of how the Flyrant can't actually do anything, then all you have attempted here is really a contentless disruptive tactic and my argument still stands.
Moreover, your argument, minus the silly absurd stuff, fully supports mine. Your black hole was a fiction of an absurd read of the rules. And it shows that BvA works without a hitch. So thank you.
I will not, as I am not the one trying to make a Rule as Written debate based on the wording found within this single Restriction. There is no reason for me to go screaming about 'yet another broken Rule' on any site, let alone one which has a related topic found on the very front page. The best people would get from me concerning this restriction, from pure Rule as Written, is a 'outcome is broken, discuss it with your opponent' answer, that does not require a thread all of it's own. Besides, are we not currently discussing that very topic on a thread which was created for the purpose of discussing a situation where this topic may or may not occur?
As for you though, still waiting for an answer to this question: If we do not use a Flight Mode, have we used only the Gliding Flight mode?
JinxDragon wrote: I will not, as I am not the one trying to make a Rule as Written debate based on the wording found within this single Restriction.
The best people would get from me concerning this restriction, from pure Rule as Written, is a 'outcome is broken, discuss it with your opponent' answer.
No the outcome is not broken, the outcome is illegal.
If you take an action that results in a rule being broken, you can not take that action.
JinxDragon wrote: I will not, as I am not the one trying to make a Rule as Written debate based on the wording found within this single Restriction.
The best people would get from me concerning this restriction, from pure Rule as Written, is a 'outcome is broken, discuss it with your opponent' answer.
As for you though, still waiting for an answer to this question:
If we do not use a Flight Mode, have we used only the Gliding Flight mode?
Is this a serious proposition from you, that the Flyrant cannot shoot because he can only use the Gliding Flight Mode?
JinxDragon wrote: If we do not use a Flight Mode, have we used only the Gliding Flight mode?
Is this a serious proposition from you, that the Flyrant cannot shoot or do anything besides use the Gliding Flight Mode because he can only use the Gliding Flight Mode?
JinxDragon wrote: Yes, but only if one remove all context from the Rule itself and apply it exactly as Written....
Now I have answered your loaded and pointless question, answer mine:
If we do not use a Flight Mode, have we used only the Gliding Flight mode?
Okay, make a separate post on YMDC and let everyone know your discovery, since you said this is a serious proposal. It's important to get your findings out there. Everyone has been playing it wrong.
Otherwise, this isn't a serious proposal and you are just being deceitful and firing off contentless disruptive tactics.
That would violate the tenets of this site, as the topic is clearly being discussed in a multi-paged thread which is active enough to currently be at the top of the queue....
So please answer this question, and I won't scoop to claiming you are simply being disruptive based on your answer: If we do not use a Flight Mode, have we used only the Gliding Flight mode?
JinxDragon wrote: That would violate the tenets of this site, as the topic is clearly being discussed in a many page thread that is still on the front page.
Again:
If we do not use a Flight Mode, have we used only the Gliding Flight mode?
I only answer serious questions. You are not being serious. Discussing absurdly literal reads is pointless and you are just being disruptive.
So back up, throw out the absurd silly stuff and get back to the real debate.
It is a very serious question, for you are trying to state that it is legal to not use a Flight Mode when faced with this very Restriction:
So, if we do not use a Flight Mode have we used only the Gliding Flight mode?
JinxDragon wrote: It is a very serious question, for you are trying to state that it is legal to not use a Flight Mode when faced with this very Restriction.
So, if we do not use a Flight Mode have we used only the Gliding Flight mode?
Please answer, and I won't demand you do some action to 'prove you are being sincere' or claim you are being dishonest simply based on what answer you give.
Does this question apply to the Flyrant shooting or manifesting a psychic power?
I won't demand you do some action to 'prove you are being sincere' or claim you are being dishonest simply based on what answer you give. I won't even claim your attempts to deflect away from this question are somehow signs of a weak argument, though I will honestly be thinking it. All I will do at this point in time is I have granted you a great deal more then the others on this site are willing, most people refuse to enter into a debate where one of the opponents has framed how the debate will occur. So, please, just answer the question....
If we do not use a Flight Mode have we used only the Gliding Flight mode?
JinxDragon wrote: I won't demand you do some action to 'prove you are being sincere' or claim you are being dishonest simply based on what answer you give. I won't even claim your attempts to deflect away from this question are somehow signs of a weak argument, though I will honestly be thinking it. All I will do at this point in time is I have granted you a great deal more then the others on this site are willing, most people refuse to enter into a debate where one of the opponents has framed how the debate will occur. So, please, just answer the question....
If we do not use a Flight Mode have we used only the Gliding Flight mode?
If the Flyrant shoots and does not use a Flight Mode have we used only the Gliding Flight mode?
JinxDragon wrote: I won't demand you do some action to 'prove you are being sincere' or claim you are being dishonest simply based on what answer you give. I won't even claim your attempts to deflect away from this question are somehow signs of a weak argument, though I will honestly be thinking it. All I will do at this point in time is I have granted you a great deal more then the others on this site are willing, most people refuse to enter into a debate where one of the opponents has framed how the debate will occur. So, please, just answer the question....
If we do not use a Flight Mode have we used only the Gliding Flight mode?
If the Flyrant shoots and does not use a Flight Mode have we used only the Gliding Flight mode?
JinxDragon wrote: I won't demand you do some action to 'prove you are being sincere' or claim you are being dishonest simply based on what answer you give. I won't even claim your attempts to deflect away from this question are somehow signs of a weak argument, though I will honestly be thinking it. All I will do at this point in time is I have granted you a great deal more then the others on this site are willing, most people refuse to enter into a debate where one of the opponents has framed how the debate will occur. So, please, just answer the question....
If we do not use a Flight Mode have we used only the Gliding Flight mode?
If the Flyrant shoots and does not use a Flight Mode have we used only the Gliding Flight mode?
Struggling with answering a question again?
I just don't bother answering pointlessly disruptive ones. If JinxDragon's question is absurd it does not need to be answered.
No, you don't bother answering any questions, instead you deflect. You gave done for nigh on ten pages now.
Your credibility in debate isn't high right now, I would guess. I suggest you take a step back and reread the impression you give. It still isn't a good one.
nosferatu1001 wrote: No, you don't bother answering any questions, instead you deflect. You gave done for nigh on ten pages now.
Your credibility in debate isn't high right now, I would guess. I suggest you take a step back and reread the impression you give. It still isn't a good one.
