Let me explain. This army would never have carried on its perpetual half life (with the bare minimum of prodding from GW lorewise) if it weren't for the fact that they are to all intents and purposes female space marines. A space marine is a gothic warrior from the far future who wears power armor and carries a monstrously huge gun. A sister of battle is a girl...and also a gothic warrior from the far future who wears power armor and carries a monstrously huge gun. Because of this, again despite minimal prodding from GW most fans know what Sisters of Battle are.
So a big part of the look of the army should be that they all wear some form of power armour. In fact rules wise they are the only non space marine army to give 3+ armor to their basic troops (since the change to Necron warriors).
As described above, repentia and pentitent engines do not fit with the general look or underlying theme of sisters of battle. Yes, they're religious fanatics and have the gothic look. But not to that extent and dispensing of armor gets rid of their whole identity as sisters of battle. It is the main distinguishing feature of sisters of battle and differentiates them from imperial guard for example. Whilst the Penitent engine just looks plain stupid with the pilot totally exposed. Standing alongside basic sisters the units look out of place and you wouldn't think they were part of the same army. Unlike for example a marine dread next to a regular marine. I really really hope they cut those units or at least don't bother updating them.
I also dislike the notion that the armies elite units with some of the best equipment should be its rejects...rather than regular sisters of battle. Surely the best equipment and the best trained units would be exemplars of being SoB.
Plus in such a small army, giving two unit slots over to non SoB units is just stupid. Especially because if they did do a plastic release then doing things like repentia and PE in plastic will take away attention from actual SoB units.
While the Repentia and Penitent Engines are probably the ugliest models in the game, with equally ugly rules, both are represented in the background of the Sisters of Battle. Don't get me wrong, I hate them too. It's just that I think they could be so much better in both model and rules, rather than wish to see them removed. Besides, who doesn't like a unit that goes starkers with a chainsaw, armored only in their faith and a their condemnation literally stapled to their bodies? That's as grim dark as it comes!
As to Sisters being Female Marines, the reality is that they were Guard stat models using Marine level gear from the very beginning, with a unique system of rules that let them go toe-to-toe with the Big Boys. Sister are the embodiment of the best there is that humanity can offer without literally losing their humanity. In effect, you could run an entirely male army of humans in Marine gear without changing a single stat-line or special rules, yet being an all female army lends the Sisters a weight not expressed by either the Guard or the Marines. Being female sets them apart from their Guard stat-line and their Marine gear, making them the third leg of the Imperial War Machine in equal standing.
GW really needs to either bring the Sisters in-line with the other 7th Ed armies, or admit they just don't care about the Ladies.
I don't want to see repentia gone. The idea behind them is so awesome I just can't help but love it. It fits 40K so well somehow!
I really hope GW updates SoB soon. With the technology they have now, the models could look jaw-droppingly good... With updated minis and rules, repentia could be good too.
Repentia and pengines don't fit for the same reasons that Zealots, Redemptionists, Cardinals, and Frateris Militia don't fit: they're not SoB units, they're Ecclesiarchy units. That being said, there's going to be some Ecclesiarchy overlap because there aren't enough Sisters units to make a codex without injecting Marine-lite units. I cringe whenever I hear someone mention we should have bikes or terminators or dreadnoughts.
That's the biggest reason I fear a proper SoB codex! I'm afraid what GW's writers will come up with to fill up all those open slots.
I'm something of the opposite opinion, I'd rather see a diversification of the line rather than just relegating them all to power armor. We already have 6 other armies with are already all or mostly power armored. It'd be interesting to see a more diverse array of units with the Sisters of Battle (or perhaps a more expanded and general "Ecclesiarchy") army than just cutting out everything that isn't in power armor.
I think the bigger issue with units like Repentia and Penitent Engines is that their rules suck and many of their models are either very awkward looking, annoying to built/paint or both, and expensive to boot.
I'd love to see 'redone' repentia models, they are one of my favourite units in the SoB.
Lore wise they have their place in the army and I think if you cut those and the Penitent Engines out you would be losing the 'Ecclesiarch' feel, I like that they overlap as I feel it matches and suits the army.
Also we don't need more units in power armour running around in this game, if anything we need less. I'm not saying that we need to take PA away from SoB, I'm just saying more diverse units would make for a better balance and make them more interesting rather than just 'Female Space Marines'.
If repentia weren't horrible looking S&M rejects, I'd likely run tonnes of them. Light armor and huge swords is something I'm a fan of. And the Repentia could look awesome, give them scrolls that are slightly more tasteful than the Raging Heroes 'Not Repentia' (below) and they'd be awesome.
Spoiler:
But naked battle nuns is clearly cheesecake, and while attractive women models aren't an issue, ones specifically designed for the male gaze don't really sit well. But the Protectorate of Menoth is basically Warmachine saying 'we can do the Ecclisiarchy better than you' to GW, and right now, they are right. If you look at this model you can see how cool not-cheesecake Repentia could be. Of course they also do death cult assassins better, but that's another model that hasn't been updated in years.
Vaktathi wrote: I'm something of the opposite opinion, I'd rather see a diversification of the line rather than just relegating them all to power armor. We already have 6 other armies with are already all or mostly power armored. It'd be interesting to see a more diverse array of units with the Sisters of Battle (or perhaps a more expanded and general "Ecclesiarchy") army than just cutting out everything that isn't in power armor.
I think the bigger issue with units like Repentia and Penitent Engines is that their rules suck and many of their models are either very awkward looking, annoying to built/paint or both, and expensive to boot.
Maybe I'm just old school, but I kinda like the Repentia models. Penitent Engines look ridiculously awkward to build, but it could form the basis of a great plastic kit (plus exposing the pilot is the whole point, it makes way more sense than, say, Centurions or Dreadknights).
Totalwar1402 wrote: So a big part of the look of the army should be that they all wear some form of power armour.
Like Space Marine scouts and terminators do?
Having power armour be the primary identifier of the army doesn't mean that everybody in the army needs to wear it.
When the OP said that Power Armour armies need to be all in PA, Scouts were the first thing that popped to mind. I think that they actually just misunderstand the actual theme of the Sisters. Yes, they're power armoued women, but that's not their real "theme" - it's that they're basically religious fanatics/nuns. Reducing them to Power Armoured women would be like saying that Ultramarines, Dark Angels and Space Wolves are all the same because they're "Power Armoured men". I absolutely adore the fluff for Repentia, even if their rules are horrible.
Paimon wrote: If repentia weren't horrible looking S&M rejects, I'd likely run tonnes of them. Light armor and huge swords is something I'm a fan of. And the Repentia could look awesome, give them scrolls that are slightly more tasteful than the Raging Heroes 'Not Repentia' (below) and they'd be awesome.
Spoiler:
But naked battle nuns is clearly cheesecake, and while attractive women models aren't an issue, ones specifically designed for the male gaze don't really sit well. But the Protectorate of Menoth is basically Warmachine saying 'we can do the Ecclisiarchy better than you' to GW, and right now, they are right. If you look at this model you can see how cool not-cheesecake Repentia could be. Of course they also do death cult assassins better, but that's another model that hasn't been updated in years.
Yeah, this would be my biggest problem with Repentia (and some of the Sisters line in general). I bought 9 Repentia and hadn't realized just how unclothed they were (I thought they were fighting in full corsets and long robes, which is pretty cool... but the half corsets and tiny pieces of metal covering their nipples comes across as being kind of creepy). I painted most of them as if they had a full corset when I could get away with it, because it just looks way better. There's also the issue that all of the Repentia are quite well endowed...
In addition, the Mistress of Repentance and Canoness both have ridiculously over-exaggerated boob plates. I have been very tempted to just file those down (if my sculpting skills didn't suck anyway). If GW updates the Sisters line, they need to make sure that they keep things tasteful and not get tempted to tap into the fetishistic market - there are certainly tasteful ways to present repentant battle nuns and even have them exposing some flesh without it going over the top.
SoB are the only other army besides Orks that I collect. I remember the first time my wife viewed a Repentia. She knows the general 40KSoB fluff and just couldn't understand how such a fanatical, conservative, modest nun could become so uninhibited and immodest overnight. I showed her the backstory of the Repentia and she still said she couldn't see it. And her comment about the well endowed nature of alot of the SoB models, was to roll her eyes and say "must be something in the water in the far future".
This was all unfortunate because I almost had her interested in playing 40K.
She did say that a Repentia with high boots, a full corset, and a open front long flowing robe and huge swords would be very cool. So I am going to look for 3rd party models to entice her to play.
I like the penitent engines general concept and fluff, but the model and rules could be so much better. I would love to see a plastic model of the penitent engine, lots of possibilities for modifications. (besides I would loot a couple for my Orks )
... the point of the Repentia being naked (or nearly so) is that they are seeking absolution for sins in the only way that matters in 40K: death.
The Repentia are *not* "Ecclesiarchy" units... they are members of the Sororitas who have been sentenced to, or willingly assigned themselves to, the Repentia in order to atone for some sin or another. The actual severity of that sin will vary to each Sister Repentia.
So, armed with an Eviscerator, and armored only in faith, she seeks her death in battle with the enemies of the Emperor. She will seek to bring as many of them as she can to judgement before Him, and the only way one can be judged is by coming before the Golden Throne in death. Some few who survive their suicide missions are judged absolved of whatever sin brought them to the Repentia, and they are returned to their Order as full Sisters... but this is rare.
The theme with SoB it's not female marines, it's nuns with guns.
The whole eclisiarchy with bishops and the pope wannabe Sebastian Thor.
Spoiler:
This is a picture of Penitente, a group of repenting people who wishes to be absolved from their sins, so they joined the order to repent for a set period of time.
So no, the SoB and repentia is basically Grimdark nuns and Grimdark Penitente.
Psienesis wrote: ... the point of the Repentia being naked (or nearly so) is that they are seeking absolution for sins in the only way that matters in 40K: death.
The Repentia are *not* "Ecclesiarchy" units... they are members of the Sororitas who have been sentenced to, or willingly assigned themselves to, the Repentia in order to atone for some sin or another. The actual severity of that sin will vary to each Sister Repentia.
So, armed with an Eviscerator, and armored only in faith, she seeks her death in battle with the enemies of the Emperor. She will seek to bring as many of them as she can to judgement before Him, and the only way one can be judged is by coming before the Golden Throne in death. Some few who survive their suicide missions are judged absolved of whatever sin brought them to the Repentia, and they are returned to their Order as full Sisters... but this is rare.
See, this is why I'm not even adverse to Repentia showing some skin, since nakedness is symbolic of shame in Christianity at least (which the fanatical elements of the Imperial cult clearly draw on). It sounds like Game of Thrones Season 5 will be representing this quite well. There's a fine line between displaying repentance and fetishization though, which makes a redesign somewhat tricky (for that matter, hopefully GoT doesn't screw up this line... although it's HBO, I imagine they'll default to titillation).
Shaved heads, torn robes, minimal bling, cuts, scars, reasonable (and even varied) endowment and even some exposed flesh to drive home their penitent nature and vulnerability - not with the intent to titillate. There's a lot of potential for some fantastic models in there without it getting distasteful or even throwing away the design aesthetics of the current models (hell, if someone went with my ideas, you could probably put the old and new designs side by side and look like they belong together).
No because I think the mentality that "they can't have anything space marine" tends to translate into "lets not give them anything other than bolters and power armor". Its also especially bad because space marines have access to every type of unit or tank in the game imaginable. Hard to avoid aping space marines. Look at Salamanders. Loads of special rules and buffs regarding using flame weapons. Do you deliberately avoid giving any such bonuses or units to SoB because that's too much of a Salamanders thing?
Its also an attitude that means the designers think lets make similar type units but make them worse than their space marine equivalents. The pentitent engine is a good comparison being bone fragile and worse than a dread in every way even though its essentially an ecclesiarchy dread. Or the "lets not give them close combat weapons and no armour for their close combat units!".
The army already has, intentionally, many similarities to space marines such as using the rhino as the chassis for its tanks and using bolters n power armor. Why wouldn't that carry over into access to heavy battle tanks such as land raiders or dreadnoughts? Lightening claws? Terminator armor? Fundamentally they are still part of the Imperium and essentially this boils down to saying they shouldn't have elite units or good heavy tanks. Which is kind of bad.
The problem with adding more ecclesiarchy units like the repentia and engine is that it detracts from the actual number of sisters of battle units in the army. This is especially true since you really only have regular sisters and seraphim to choose from unit wise. Having two non sisters units really dilutes the army, especially since they are the armies close combat and elite arm.
I really disagree with the "female guard" thing. This army does not exist and was not made because the Ecclesiarchy really needed representing. You could easily represent an army of religious fanatics using either Black Templars or Imperial guard with priests. SoB were created to be female space marines to all intents and purposes. The lore and religious zealot thing is fluff that (while good) was bolted onto that core concept.
I think the repentia should be kept, HOWEVER, I do agree with the OP that it might be an idea to revise their look, the "sisters of bondage" look is silly and just doesn't strike me as right...
the penitilates linked earlier wear simple black robes and hoods. I'd go with something like that (I'd ditch the hood though as it'd look too much like minis of KKK members)
Totalwar1402 wrote: Let me explain. This army would never have carried on its perpetual half life (with the bare minimum of prodding from GW lorewise) if it weren't for the fact that they are to all intents and purposes female space marines. A space marine is a gothic warrior from the far future who wears power armor and carries a monstrously huge gun. A sister of battle is a girl...and also a gothic warrior from the far future who wears power armor and carries a monstrously huge gun. Because of this, again despite minimal prodding from GW most fans know what Sisters of Battle are.
So a big part of the look of the army should be that they all wear some form of power armour. In fact rules wise they are the only non space marine army to give 3+ armor to their basic troops (since the change to Necron warriors).
As described above, repentia and pentitent engines do not fit with the general look or underlying theme of sisters of battle. Yes, they're religious fanatics and have the gothic look. But not to that extent and dispensing of armor gets rid of their whole identity as sisters of battle. It is the main distinguishing feature of sisters of battle and differentiates them from imperial guard for example. Whilst the Penitent engine just looks plain stupid with the pilot totally exposed. Standing alongside basic sisters the units look out of place and you wouldn't think they were part of the same army. Unlike for example a marine dread next to a regular marine. I really really hope they cut those units or at least don't bother updating them.
I also dislike the notion that the armies elite units with some of the best equipment should be its rejects...rather than regular sisters of battle. Surely the best equipment and the best trained units would be exemplars of being SoB.
Plus in such a small army, giving two unit slots over to non SoB units is just stupid. Especially because if they did do a plastic release then doing things like repentia and PE in plastic will take away attention from actual SoB units.
Just....wow. There are so many holes in this argument I don't even know what to do. Many other responses in this thread have pointed out that Repentia ARE Battle Sisters and that the "theme" of the SoB is NOT females in power armor but religious zealots! And when you look at an outdated and very small model line and codex and you can only think, "Let's take stuff away" really boggles my mind.
Now, both of the units mentioned are SORELY lacking, I completely agree. Rules wise they need an overhaul and the ALL of the Sisters need some new models ASAP. But this isn't new. The SoB are religious zealots who HAPPEN to wear Power Armor. And both the Repentia and Penitent Engines fit the gothic and grimdark feel of them to a T.
Totalwar1402 wrote: Let me explain. This army would never have carried on its perpetual half life (with the bare minimum of prodding from GW lorewise) if it weren't for the fact that they are to all intents and purposes female space marines. A space marine is a gothic warrior from the far future who wears power armor and carries a monstrously huge gun. A sister of battle is a girl...and also a gothic warrior from the far future who wears power armor and carries a monstrously huge gun. Because of this, again despite minimal prodding from GW most fans know what Sisters of Battle are.
So a big part of the look of the army should be that they all wear some form of power armour. In fact rules wise they are the only non space marine army to give 3+ armor to their basic troops (since the change to Necron warriors).
As described above, repentia and pentitent engines do not fit with the general look or underlying theme of sisters of battle. Yes, they're religious fanatics and have the gothic look. But not to that extent and dispensing of armor gets rid of their whole identity as sisters of battle. It is the main distinguishing feature of sisters of battle and differentiates them from imperial guard for example. Whilst the Penitent engine just looks plain stupid with the pilot totally exposed. Standing alongside basic sisters the units look out of place and you wouldn't think they were part of the same army. Unlike for example a marine dread next to a regular marine. I really really hope they cut those units or at least don't bother updating them.
I also dislike the notion that the armies elite units with some of the best equipment should be its rejects...rather than regular sisters of battle. Surely the best equipment and the best trained units would be exemplars of being SoB.
Plus in such a small army, giving two unit slots over to non SoB units is just stupid. Especially because if they did do a plastic release then doing things like repentia and PE in plastic will take away attention from actual SoB units.
Just....wow. There are so many holes in this argument I don't even know what to do. Many other responses in this thread have pointed out that Repentia ARE Battle Sisters and that the "theme" of the SoB is NOT females in power armor but religious zealots! And when you look at an outdated and very small model line and codex and you can only think, "Let's take stuff away" really boggles my mind.
Now, both of the units mentioned are SORELY lacking, I completely agree. Rules wise they need an overhaul and the ALL of the Sisters need some new models ASAP. But this isn't new. The SoB are religious zealots who HAPPEN to wear Power Armor. And both the Repentia and Penitent Engines fit the gothic and grimdark feel of them to a T.
Um, no you're being really disingenuous, the theme is very much "girls in power armour". Religious zealots exist in other armies such as Word Bearers, Black Templars and even thematic Imperial Guard armies with Priests. If GW wanted to make an army of zealots and focused on a pure Ecclesiarchy army then why on earth would they have chosen to make them all women, wear power armor and carry bolters; essentially making them female space marines? You could easily represent such a force without having them be girls, have power armor or have bolters. No, the core fundamental reason for this armies existence is not because GW wanted to represent the army of the Ecclesiarchy or have a religious zealot army, they exist because they wanted an all girl army in power armor. The religious fanatic theme was simply applied on top of that to try and give the army more of an identity but its an idea which follows from the core concept.
They are girls in power armor models that GW happened to decide to make religious zealots in their fluff. The models design came first, the fluff and backstory second.
Repentia aren't Sisters of Battle. They're flaggleants who are cast out of the order, this is why they have their armor taken off them to symbolise them not being SoB anymore. The problem is that this makes them embarrassingly bad, even with FNP which most guns in the game ignore anyway. Why they can't simply wear armor and just have their robs shredded with eviserators is beyond me. They just don't fit in with the rest of the army because they don't wear armor. I already have an army of half naked wychs, I don't care another one.
My main gripe is the idea of GW redoing kits like the repentia and Penitent Engine rather than make better CC units which are actual sisters of battle.
Repentia are a force within the Orders Militant of the Adeptus Sororitus just like the Battle Sisters, Celestians, Seraphim, etc. The particular outfit they wear is irrelevant even if most of the others forces do wear power armor. They are still sisters of the Adeptus Sororitus. The OP seems confused on the actual structure of the organization. This is kind of like saying Scouts should be removed from Space Marine armies because they are not full Battle Brothers yet. While they are recruits and don't wear power armor, space marine scouts are still members of the space marines.
That said both the model and rules for them leave a lot of room for improvement. However, I don't either of them will be changing any time soon.
the_hanged_man wrote: Repentia are a force within the Orders Militant of the Adeptus Sororitus just like the Battle Sisters, Celestians, Seraphim, etc. The particular outfit they wear is irrelevant even if most of the others forces do wear power armor. They are still sisters of the Adeptus Sororitus. The OP seems confused on the actual structure of the organization. This is kind of like saying Scouts should be removed from Space Marine armies because they are not full Battle Brothers yet. While they are recruits and don't wear power armor, space marine scouts are still members of the space marines.
That said both the model and rules for them leave a lot of room for improvement. However, I don't either of them will be changing any time soon.
I am fully aware that repentia are disgraced sisters of battle who take on an oath of penitence. They then have their robes torn into tatters and their armor removed. This symbolises them being cast out of the sisterhood.
I am not questioning the lore or the concept.
The problem is that they don't look anything like sisters of battle or remotely fit in due to them not having any armor. Hence why I don't consider them a proper SoB unit, just another crazy ecclesiarchy unit like the Penitent engine that just detracts from the armies central theme "girls in power armor". It also makes their rules appallingly bad. It also means that GW has clearly decided that only the shooty units in the SoB list should have this and the close combat units should all be bereft of it. Which sucks. Scouts fit in because they are a secondary troop choice in a huge and vastly diverse list; plus they are still wearing armor very similar to what regular space marines wear. They are not: the only dedicated SoB close combat choice, look nothing remotely like a sister of battle unlike scouts which fit in perfectly alongside space marines.
I mean why on earth would you take the heavy armor off your shock assault troops and refuse to give powerful close combat weapons to Celestians or seraphim? Its an extremely bizarre and stupid concept. Why GW thought that t3 models that cost as much as a terminator and strike last are viable is beyond me. I mean why do these expendable suicide squads cost more points than a sister of battle? Who surely should be many times more valuable?
Totalwar1402 wrote: The models design came first, the fluff and backstory second..
No, it didn't.
Sisters of Battle have been in the 40K backstory since Rogue Trader (they were responsible for the purge of the Rainbow Warriors for Heresy, amongst other things) but didn't get models until towards the end of 2nd edition.
The brief for SoB has always been 'Nuns with Guns'. The power armour was to make them something more than just female guard.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Totalwar1402 wrote: The problem is that they don't look anything like sisters of battle or remotely fit in due to them not having any armor.
Which brings us once again to the fact that Scouts, Terminators and Dreadnoughts don't look anything like a regular Space Marine, but you don't seem to be arguing that they don't belong...
Again, an army's core theme does not dictate that every single model in that army must include that thematic element.
BrianDavion wrote: I think the repentia should be kept, HOWEVER, I do agree with the OP that it might be an idea to revise their look, the "sisters of bondage" look is silly and just doesn't strike me as right...
the penitilates linked earlier wear simple black robes and hoods. I'd go with something like that (I'd ditch the hood though as it'd look too much like minis of KKK members)
Ehm... the Sisters are kind of like KKK members in the setting. After all, they're not meant to be Supergirl. They're hardline religious zealots who would much rather burn heretics and unbelievers, mutants and witches, xenos and anyone else who's not on the Imperium4Ever train at the stake, rather than attempt to re-educate them. They defend the faith, they punish the infidel, and they cleanse the Imperium of the genetically impure.
I mean why on earth would you take the heavy armor off your shock assault troops and refuse to give powerful close combat weapons to Celestians or seraphim? Its an extremely bizarre and stupid concept. Why GW thought that t3 models that cost as much as a terminator and strike last are viable is beyond me. I mean why do these expendable suicide squads cost more points than a sister of battle? Who surely should be many times more valuable?
That's a problem with the rules, not the concept of the army or the unit.... but the reason that they get Eviscerators and Celestians don't is because the Eviscerator is not a weapon for use in closed-ranks fighting. It's a weapon for one person to throw their lives away with by jumping into a mob of heretics and laying about with a two-meter-long chainsaw wrapped in a matter-destroying energy field with reckless abandon.
I really like the Penitant Engines and Repentia in the Sisters of Battle. The Demonhunters/Witchhunters were great ranges of models and are probably the last time I was interested in the output of regular 40K. All the inquisitors and their retinues and weird and wonderful support characters like flagellants and priests. Lovely. These pages are always my favourites in any art book about the Imperium. The miniature ranges are mostly all gone now, I regret not buying more of them at the time. Most of the interesting creative stuff in 40K either disappeared with Specialist Games or has been pushed to Black Library and Forge World.
insaniak wrote: they were responsible for the purge of the Rainbow Warriors for Heresy, amongst other things
Not exactly true, just a picture showing 'Brother Vermillion' of the Rainbow Warriors being shot by 'Sister Sin'.
What Rogue Trader says about the Sisterhood though is this: 'The Adepta Sororitas is a penitent organisation where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime. The slightest deviation from approved stricture results in the severest chastisement'.
If anything the Repentia are more 'Sistery' that the other Battle Sisters and are the truest expression of what the Sororitas are and represent.
I think what I would personally like to see is a Codex: Ministorum where the Frateris Militia and other civilian fighters form the main body of troops with the Sisters of Battle being the elite of the army which is what they are in the background and should be in the game.
(Then all Games Workshop needs to do is get around to making armies for the Mechanicus and Arbites...)
At first the Repentia and Penitent Engines squicked me out -- especially Repentia in some artwork featuring both nudity and mutilation -- but I learned to stop worrying and love the grimdark. They represent the crazy, brutal, hardly-better-than-Chaos side of the Imperium and the human longing for redemption, both at once. Plus in my mind Repentia are pretty much all River Glau at the climax of Serenity, only with giant chainsaws.
I think the solution to the Sisters' narrow range is the opposite of taking things away, so I've homebrewed 30 new Sisters units. That includes two Repentia characters and Frateris Militia in several flavors, as well as new wargear and upgrades to make regular Repentia and Pengines more survivable; the rest is all power-armored Sisters and vehicles. I'd love folks' comments.
Although I have to admit that the design of the Repentia models wouldn't have been my first choice. I don't have any problem with the models, if you don't like the thought of sororitas who have either been forced into the ranks of the Repentia or volunteered to do so (this is a big part of the SoB fluff, they volunteer to get closer to the Emperor) stripping mostly naked to do so. Don't paint them with bare flesh. Assume they are wearing some form of body glove and paint them in appropriate colors. They could easily be fielded as stand ins for DCA.
Personally I'd like to see their rules get fixed. Larger units would be nice, would love to be able to field a unit of 30 in one unit. A point cut would be nice, or double up their Shield of Faith save to 5++, feel no pain standard, then give them fleet and an extra attack(s?). Would be nice if Spirit of the Martyr still allowed them to get a swing off even if they were cut down in close combat that round. As they are now, they just aren't worth fielding. Unless you field them as stand ins for your DCA.
As far as the Penitent Engine. Unstoppable should be renamed IWND and treated as such. Double up their Shield of Faith as well along with feel no pain standard and fleet. Of course I'd love to see them made monstrous creatures rather than walkers. While you are at it, make the Repentant Host formation available in 40k rather than just Apoc. Open up those slots for Exorcists.
Side note, the sororitas PE pilot is one of my favorite models in the SoB line. I don't see the arco pilot as a sister model but the sororitas one makes the whole PE look really cool.
Personally, I couldn't disagree more with the OP. I think we need to find more unit ideas for the SoB that aren't just rehashed SM units, we don't need to remove any.
Restoring permanent Feel No Pain, the way the Repentia had in the White Dwarf mini-dex, would go a long way to making them viable. So would an assault vehicle.
SisterSydney wrote: Restoring permanent Feel No Pain, the way the Repentia had in the White Dwarf mini-dex, would go a long way to making them viable. So would an assault vehicle.
How is it POSSIBLE that you posted a reply without a link to a set of homebrewed rules?! I need links if I'm going to understand anything you post! LINKS!!!!
Well, I tried to restrain myself from the relentless self-promotion for a change, but of course I have a Relic that creates an FNP bubble for Repentia and a Repentia assault vehicle in my fandex/expandex. C&C much appreciated.
(Yes I know you were making fun of me about doing exactly this but aaaarggh can't help myself).
And less "sexy bondage warrior."
More Texas Chainsaw Massacre and less Madonna.
SisterSydney wrote: Or like this, which is I think may be the first image of a Repentia ever published:
Both of these are waaaaaay closer to how I envisage Repentia. Like I said though, nakedness is akin to shame in Christianity so there is a precedent for showing some skin... it's all in the presentation though.
dracpanzer wrote: Although I have to admit that the design of the Repentia models wouldn't have been my first choice. I don't have any problem with the models, if you don't like the thought of
Personally, I couldn't disagree more with the OP. I think we need to find more unit ideas for the SoB that aren't just rehashed SM units, we don't need to remove any.
Which is impossible and GW has already drawn general inspiration from its Space Marine line to make SoB units. Hence why their basic troops wear power armor, have bolters, use rhinos, have the penitent engine as a dreadnought equivalent.
If you are basically saying that they:
1- Can't have heavy tanks like predators
2- Can't have troop transports like land raiders
3- Can't have any form of close combat infantry with power weapons or lightening claws.
4- Can't give them close combat weapons of any type mentioned above in general.
5- Can't have any kind of exo suit or more heavily armoured unit as its too close to Terminators or Centurions.
6- Can't give them living saints or any sort of angelic saintly units as that's treading on the Blood Angels toes too much.
7- Can't give them any flame weapons because that's a Salamanders speciality
8- Can't give them any long range anti tank.
Frankly I simply would have no interest in the army if it was just all gothic religious zealot army and for arguments sake if GW got rid of the "girls in power armor" thing completely. I mean I would just end up buying Sisters of Silence anyway (note that GW felt the need to invent a girls in power armor faction for HH: seeing a theme here?) but it would be genuinely annoying if GW really went down the root you're proposing,
Quite certain I didn't say any of those things. Just don't think we need to remove any of the units we currently have.
I would prefer that if we were to add any units that they be something that enhanced the character of the army rather than just taking marine models and putting a sororitas head on it. The repentia add to the flavor of the army, to bad they are terrible atm.
I think a unit of infiltrating BS with storm shields and power mauls that had fnp so long as they were on an objective would be a nice second troop choice that would fit the bill of a unit of sisters tasked to defend a shrine to the last. Could also be a nod towards the similar duties they often share with arbites.
I plan on doing a sister of silence counts as a Culexis just to get the pariah effect onto the table.
Totalwar1402 wrote: Um, no you're being really disingenuous, the theme is very much "girls in power armour". Religious zealots exist in other armies such as Word Bearers, Black Templars and even thematic Imperial Guard armies with Priests. If GW wanted to make an army of zealots and focused on a pure Ecclesiarchy army then why on earth would they have chosen to make them all women, wear power armor and carry bolters; essentially making them female space marines? You could easily represent such a force without having them be girls, have power armor or have bolters. No, the core fundamental reason for this armies existence is not because GW wanted to represent the army of the Ecclesiarchy or have a religious zealot army, they exist because they wanted an all girl army in power armor. The religious fanatic theme was simply applied on top of that to try and give the army more of an identity but its an idea which follows from the core concept.
Well, I disagree. For me, the Sisters of Battle are “Some guy with near absolute power and next to no sense, or taste for that matter, wants to design his own super-elite force. The result is some very, very baroque and borderline stupid stuff”. Like the Sisters armor, or the Exorcist design. The religious theme is here because not only religious extremists are fun, but because who was famous for having tons and tons of money and power, and little sense on how to use them, and for displaying lavish baroque art all over the place? Well, the Roman Catholic church. This is what makes them unique. All Space Marine stuff look like it was made to be functional at first, and then it was then (more or less, depending on the kind of marines) corrupted by religious ignorance and superstition. The Exorcist looks like some kind of idiot thought “Hey, let us make a tank that looks like an organ, but shot rockets instead”, and then threw money at the idea until someone finally managed to make it work somehow. Though if it was designed by Vandire, money was likely not the only thing that was thrown away quite liberally, he sure knew other ways to keep people motivated. Mostly painful ones .
As for repentia, I dislike the way eviscerator are portrayed anyway. It all boils down to the huge, and not sensible power boost they got when they entered 40k, like everything that came from Inquisitor, the almostRPG game. They are supposed to be a huge barbaric chainsword. They should be a quite poor melee weapon, that do hit stronger than a regular chainsword, at the cost of a drawback. Right now they are literally better than a power fist! Repentia should not need to be protected by anything else than dirt-cheap point cost, with a rule that prevents them for holding objective. That way their actual purpose on the table would be to run at the nearest meat-grinder in order to buy their fellow Sisters some time by their death. Fluffy and flavorful. Repentia should be only slightly more expensive than grots. Better than those at close combat, but unable to hold objective and no shooting weapon. About as fragile.
They're supposed to be an army of saintly Joan of Arc types. Hence why big hulking steampunk torture machines and bdsm flaggelants don't fit. I already have a dark eldar army, there's no need to have more.
You are not answering in any way to anything I just said. I personally dislike the PE, which are basically arcoflagellant (an awesome, awesome, very grimdark idea) turned stupid. But those are an Ecclesiarchy unit anyway.
The repentia do not have to look BDSM. Just like the arcoflagellant do not look BDSM. This is just the good old prejudice of “women↔sex” at work going on here, sadly. The Sisters are too sinister for being only saintly Joan of Arc types. Remember, the Catechism of Hate and everything. 40k, grimdark and all that.
Totalwar1402 wrote: They're supposed to be an army of saintly Joan of Arc types. Hence why big hulking steampunk torture machines and bdsm flaggelants don't fit. I already have a dark eldar army, there's no need to have more.
Ehm... you know that Joan of Arc was martyred, right? Take Joan of Arc, and turn her up to 11... and do away with the fact that she was a nice kid, and instead make her a xenophobic extremist with the power and the right to purge entire worlds of the unfaithful, the infidel and the impure.
The huge, hulking torture machine (just because it has buzz-saw hands does not make it steampunk) and "bdsm flagellants" are part and parcel of the early Catholic church. Even contemporary to Joan of Arc... and they predate BDSM as a recognized fetish by centuries.
My only grip with the op is that the Sisters Repentia are not Ecclesiarch units they are apart of and belong to the Adepta Sororitas.
the Penitent Engine is a Ecclesiarch unit and the purpose for the pilot to be exposed is because they not suppose to survive and the pilots are intended to die in battle
However the Sisters Repentia are a SoB unit and still part of the Adepta Sororitas. It is pointed out in the op as to why do they not weir armor and it doesn't make sense, Well why do Repentia not weir armor? Because said Sister has Failed in a mission or sinned and know's that she is no longer worthy nor has the right to weir armor. Also B, the rule of cool and the rule of Grim Dark there is only war over rides any sense able and reasonable logic like giving armor a religious zealot fanatic who has sinned and is seeking redemption through death to increase their serviablility.
"Sisters Repentia are fanatical self-mutilating warriors of the Sisters of Battle. Having failed or fallen short of the Sororitas' strict religious codes in the past, Repentia Sisters seek to earn the Emperor's grace once more by self-flagellation and find a glorious death in the heat of battle. Though ultimately outcasts, they are none the less revered by their fellow Sisters, who see them as pilgrims seeking the absolution of death and ultimate sacrifice in the name of the Emperor." (codex Witch Hunters 3rd ed.)
An Adeptus Sororitas may choose to join the Repentia as an act of penance. The ritual of casting aside her status as Battle Sister is undertaken with her squad members in attendance and in the presence of a superior officer. The ritual is as follows[2]: (Novel - Faith and Fire by James Swallow)
Penitent
I am far from absolution. Lost to any exculpation. I offer myself to repentance. Before the Emperor I have sinned. Beyond forgiveness. Beyond forbearance. Beyond mercy.
The Squad members take the Penitent's wargear and cast it aside. They use the remnants of robes to roughly clothe the Penitent.
Squad
We turn our backs upon you. We cast off your armour and your arms.
Penitent
I leave this company of my own free will and by my will shall I return. I shall seek the Emperor's forgiveness in the darkest places of the night.
The Penitent's hair is roughly shorn with a knife.
Squad
When forgiveness is yours, we shall welcome you back. Until such time you are nameless to us.
Penitent
See me and do not see me. Know me and know fear, for I have no face today but this one. I stand before you a Sister Repentia, until absolution finds me once more.
The problem for Sisters of Battle is that the limited models of Nuns with Guns isn't particularly compelling.
Repentia, Penitent Engines, Frateris Militia are all great options to expand the Codex into something more playable, and there is no reason to take them if you don't want them.
There are some players who like the variety of a Ecclesarcy force, with the various Priests and other Ministorum forces. In that context, where the Sisters are a part of the whole, the army has more potential to grow where it has otherwise clearly failed to date.
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced to 40k as it currently exists.
It says quite clearly that Repentia are "exiled" from their order; no longer recognized as Sisters. At that point, you can call them SoB all you want,, but they clearly are not. The Mistress that leads the squad has the stats of a Celestian, and bears the fleur de lys of some order. So, what organization oversees these units? Clearly, a Repentia can't judge herself as redeemed. That's done by the Mistress. So, how do Repentia gather together in groups, find a Mistress to lead them, then make it to the next battle to find redemption? There must be some over-arching authority, right? The Ecclesiarchy would seem the most logical choice here.
Ergo, Repentia are not Sisters, they are Ecclesiarchy. Unless someone can cite canon otherwise.
I still advocate for a Codex: Ecclesiarchy as being a much more interesting concept than Codex: Adepta Uterus or whatever GW refers to them these days.
Iunno. I'd be okay with giving Sisters more power armored units, but I also see the merit of units like repentia. I would prefer the Sisters to have an eclectic mix of Imperial stuff, myself, towing the line between marines and guard, while having a bit of an optional freakshow going on with repentia and the ecclesiarchal stuff.
I know I'm weird in that I kind of want sisters to get armored sentinels and the like rather than dreadnoughts, or an uparmored immolator with a unique melta weapon as the MBT instead of a predator.
insaniak wrote: Sisters of Battle have been in the 40K backstory since Rogue Trader (they were responsible for the purge of the Rainbow Warriors for Heresy, amongst other things)
OH, so that's why no one likes Sisters of Battle. They killed the Rainbow Warriors!
insaniak wrote: Again, an army's core theme does not dictate that every single model in that army must include that thematic element.
A little contrast now and then doesn't hurt. Then again I'm not sure if I personally like the Repentia, either...it's more or less the models for them than the actual idea, though, I guess.
SisterSydney wrote: Or like this, which is I think may be the first image of a Repentia ever published:
I like that, actually. Also like the idea of gunslinger Repentia dual-wielding pistols like that.
Totalwar1402 wrote: Let me explain. This army would never have carried on its perpetual half life (with the bare minimum of prodding from GW lorewise) if it weren't for the fact that they are to all intents and purposes female space marines.
It's never why I played the army honestly. If I wanted to play Marines I'd play Marines. Marines are better at being Marines than Sisters are after all.
Totalwar1402 wrote: As described above, repentia and pentitent engines do not fit with the general look or underlying theme of sisters of battle.
Religious zealots in space don't have room for people being punished for failing or being horrible criminals? What.
Totalwar1402 wrote: Yes, they're religious fanatics and have the gothic look. But not to that extent and dispensing of armor gets rid of their whole identity as sisters of battle. It is the main distinguishing feature of sisters of battle and differentiates them from imperial guard for example. Whilst the Penitent engine just looks plain stupid with the pilot totally exposed. Standing alongside basic sisters the units look out of place and you wouldn't think they were part of the same army. Unlike for example a marine dread next to a regular marine. I really really hope they cut those units or at least don't bother updating them.
I disagree honestly. The idea that they can be so fanatical (and badass) that they'll go into armor dressed in rags with a chainsaw that can cleave tanks to seek redemption fits the theme of "religious fanatics" wonderfully. And the Penitent Engine is no more stupid than the Dreadknight in concept and is more akin to what a stripped down Dreadnought on a sentinel's legs would be. Or do we want to pretend having a coffin sitting right in the front of a Dreadnought with just a thin lid of armor protecting the squishy corpse is really that much better?
Totalwar1402 wrote: I also dislike the notion that the armies elite units with some of the best equipment should be its rejects...rather than regular sisters of battle. Surely the best equipment and the best trained units would be exemplars of being SoB.
Fluff wise the Celestians should be the best equipped of the Sisters but the rules don't represent that well (due to the lack of an improved Invul save or ability to have Artificer Armor which would at least make them worth being more expensive Battle Sisters with +1WS (being WS4 instead of WS3) and +1A). And Eviscerators used to be available for all the Superiors in the army but GW screwed the pooch by removing that (likely due to dwindling model supplies) so blaming the Repentia for that is silly. Also your rank and file Battle Sisters are the initiates to the order so shouldn't be given the best equipment (as Sisters have no Scout equivalent and take a Blood Claw approach to new recruits instead).
Totalwar1402 wrote: Plus in such a small army, giving two unit slots over to non SoB units is just stupid. Especially because if they did do a plastic release then doing things like repentia and PE in plastic will take away attention from actual SoB units.
Repentia are Sisters though. They're Sisters who have failed in some way, feel that they are not worthy to serve the Emperor as Sisters and take the Vow of Repentance, either dying in battle or eventually earning forgiveness in the blood of the enemies of the Imperium. And just because the army is small now doesn't mean it always will be. I'd be surprised if it didn't get a bit of a size increase when it gets an eventual update (since it has no anti-air, or air support currently in the codex proper).
the_Armyman wrote: It says quite clearly that Repentia are "exiled" from their order; no longer recognized as Sisters. At that point, you can call them SoB all you want,, but they clearly are not. The Mistress that leads the squad has the stats of a Celestian, and bears the fleur de lys of some order. So, what organization oversees these units? Clearly, a Repentia can't judge herself as redeemed. That's done by the Mistress. So, how do Repentia gather together in groups, find a Mistress to lead them, then make it to the next battle to find redemption? There must be some over-arching authority, right? The Ecclesiarchy would seem the most logical choice here.
Ergo, Repentia are not Sisters, they are Ecclesiarchy. Unless someone can cite canon otherwise.
I still advocate for a Codex: Ecclesiarchy as being a much more interesting concept than Codex: Adepta Uterus or whatever GW refers to them these days.
Codex: Witch-Hunters wrote:
To the Adepta Sororitas, those who seek absolution as a Sister Repentia occupy a state of grace that many aspire to, yet few ever attain, for to earn redemption is to give oneself entirely to the will of the Emperor. Confession and penance are part of a Sister's everyday existence, and those who fall short of the Sisterhood's rigorous codes may, in the most extreme of cases, find themselves exiled from their Order or banded into groups armed with the mighty ceremonial Eviscerators and lead into battle by the harsh mistresses. Indeed, through a deep-seated desire to seek the Emperor's grace, some may willingly exile themselves, finding fault in the smallest imagined transgressions. These Sisters become outcasts seeking death in the heat of battle, yet at the same time are revered by their Sisters, who see them as pilgrims seeking that which can only be found in death - absolution.
So, yep, still Sisters. Only now they are Sisters Repentia rather than Sisters Militant or Sisters Famulous or Sisters Dialogous or Sisters Pronatus or Sisters Belonging-To-Another-Type-Of-Order.
To build on the last point a bit... if they weren't still Sisters of Battle, they wouldn't be called Sisters Repentia, they'd just be called Repentia or something. There are, after all, specific units/models of Sisters of non-Militant Orders (Dialoguous perhaps most memorably) that are called Sisters "Something", denoting their status as members of an Order of the Sororitas, while not being actual Battle Sisters (which is a Sister of an Order Militant).
St. Celestine is a Repentia, which is why she does not wear shoes.
One point people miss is that Repentia are self-condemned. It is not that a Sister is religated to the Repentia as a punishment, it is that Repentia feel they have had a failure of faith and seek redemption in battle via ritualized repentance. Personally, I love the background of the Repentia, yet preferred them in 2nd Ed "duel-pistol solo-Sister" over their 3rd re-make (although the 3rd Ed nudes do have a certain "appeal"). For me, it's the truly useless rules we've had for the "nudes" rather than the actual modes that made them unplayable. If GW wants to re-issue the current Repentia with Smash, Hammer of Wrath, and a 5++ dodge save for a cheap enough price that makes them worth taking, I'd be fielding a unit of murder-nudes in every game!
Totalwar1402 wrote:Um, no you're being really disingenuous, the theme is very much "girls in power armour".
The theme is also, first and foremost, fanatic grimdark nunz with gunz and for me they are one of the coolest things in 40k. You saying that penitent engine doesnt fit and your desire to scrap the army into boring girl ultramarines just shows how much you don't get the their mood and theme.
Totalwar1402 wrote:Religious zealots exist in other armies such as Word Bearers, Black Templars and even thematic Imperial Guard armies with Priests. If GW wanted to make an army of zealots and focused on a pure Ecclesiarchy army then why on earth would they have chosen to make them all women, wear power armor and carry bolters; essentially making them female space marines?
Because it's hard to make male nuns convincing.
Totalwar1402 wrote:You could easily represent such a force without having them be girls, have power armor or have bolters.
There is a monk component to space marines so it fits, monks and nuns all wearing power armour.
Totalwar1402 wrote:No, the core fundamental reason for this armies existence is not because GW wanted to represent the army of the Ecclesiarchy or have a religious zealot army, they exist because they wanted an all girl army in power armor. The religious fanatic theme was simply applied on top of that to try and give the army more of an identity but its an idea which follows from the core concept.
They are girls in power armor models that GW happened to decide to make religious zealots in their fluff. The models design came first, the fluff and backstory second.
Even if that's exactly how it went, for which I bet you have no source except your own guess, what matters is that they added the identity and found that great way to represent women of the imperium. It doesnt matter at all that they were born out of need for girls in power armour and is no reason to reduce them back to that basic theme.
Btw not sure if you know but the main sob helmet is straight ripoff from nemesis the warlock comic book so puting them all into power armour you get an army of boring half ripoffs with tits.
Totalwar1402 wrote:Repentia aren't Sisters of Battle. They're flaggleants who are cast out of the order, this is why they have their armor taken off them to symbolise them not being SoB anymore. The problem is that this makes them embarrassingly bad, even with FNP which most guns in the game ignore anyway. Why they can't simply wear armor and just have their robs shredded with eviserators is beyond me. They just don't fit in with the rest of the army because they don't wear armor. I already have an army of half naked wychs, I don't care another one.
You can fix that with rules or point cost. No need to remove them.
Totalwar1402 wrote:My main gripe is the idea of GW redoing kits like the repentia and Penitent Engine rather than make better CC units which are actual sisters of battle.
Thats my main hope for sob, also that theyre going to redo them good so I won't have to hunt for old penitent engine model.
the_Armyman wrote: It says quite clearly that Repentia are "exiled" from their order; no longer recognized as Sisters. At that point, you can call them SoB all you want,, but they clearly are not. The Mistress that leads the squad has the stats of a Celestian, and bears the fleur de lys of some order. So, what organization oversees these units? Clearly, a Repentia can't judge herself as redeemed. That's done by the Mistress. So, how do Repentia gather together in groups, find a Mistress to lead them, then make it to the next battle to find redemption? There must be some over-arching authority, right? The Ecclesiarchy would seem the most logical choice here.
Ergo, Repentia are not Sisters, they are Ecclesiarchy. Unless someone can cite canon otherwise.
I still advocate for a Codex: Ecclesiarchy as being a much more interesting concept than Codex: Adepta Uterus or whatever GW refers to them these days.
I would really suggest THIS BOOK for any who wish to really get into some good Sisters of Battle fluff.
From the fluff contained therein: Sister Repentia ARE Sisters of Battle. They can repent after a few days and actually return to being Sisters (big "IF").
Now for the more detailed spoilery part, i suggest you do not read this if you are considering reading the book:
Spoiler:
Highlight Text to read: One of the Squad members of the main character (Celestian Miriya) gets possessed/controlled by a very powerful Psyker. To do this he has to "break" her will, essentially weakening her "faith power" / "shield of faith". Because of such "Heresy", she is not executed by the local priest (the sisters are too valuable for a simple "execution" but instead chooses, but more like "if you choose then you are not executed" type of choosing, to become part of the sister Repentia. There is mention of "if she survives X number of battles, she shall return to us" pointing at the fact that although quite suicidal, being a Repentia can lead to a return to being a sister.
So the canon here: Sister Repentia are basically the Sisters of Battle "Heretics" that might have succumbed to Chaos/Witch/Heretic but did not willingly do so (>execution) and have a chance to "repent", if they can survive a few battle as repentia (they make it sound like a 1% chance....
jeffersonian000 wrote: One point people miss is that Repentia are self-condemned. It is not that a Sister is religated to the Repentia as a punishment, it is that Repentia feel they have had a failure of faith and seek redemption in battle via ritualized repentance.
No, both can happen. Some are self-condemned, other are forced into it.
the_Armyman wrote: It says quite clearly that Repentia are "exiled" from their order; no longer recognized as Sisters. At that point, you can call them SoB all you want,, but they clearly are not. The Mistress that leads the squad has the stats of a Celestian, and bears the fleur de lys of some order. So, what organization oversees these units? Clearly, a Repentia can't judge herself as redeemed. That's done by the Mistress. So, how do Repentia gather together in groups, find a Mistress to lead them, then make it to the next battle to find redemption? There must be some over-arching authority, right? The Ecclesiarchy would seem the most logical choice here.
Ergo, Repentia are not Sisters, they are Ecclesiarchy. Unless someone can cite canon otherwise.
I still advocate for a Codex: Ecclesiarchy as being a much more interesting concept than Codex: Adepta Uterus or whatever GW refers to them these days.
The Repentia Mistress are part of the SoB as they weir the same pattern power armor only worn by the SoB.
I made Repentia 15 point Troops with the best of all the rules they've had through all the editions. They have Feel No Pain, They're insanely fast with the ability to move +D6" and can charge after running. Their Act of Faith gives them a 4++ and it allows them to strike at least once in combat. You can take up to 20 of them and they get a new Mistress of Repentance Special Character upgrade a la Sergent Tellion, Mistress Romelia serves to face challenges and add a couple Flamer templates to the unit. You can even Load them up in the Rhino Advancer, an open topped Rhino that can transport 20.
As for the Penitent Engine, I increased its front armour to 12, gave it back Battle Frenzy and added Rampage and the special rule that allows Repentia to move +D6" and charge after running. It's now an Elite too.
I made the rest of the Codex as diverse as possible while still keeping the Sisters of Battle front and center. To that end I gave them back Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors, Confessors, Zealots(HQ command Squad not troops), and Arco-flagellants (Elites). I've also added several other completely new units to fill in all the gaps Sisters had while maintaining their fluff and feel as best I could.
Ah! But does Celestine think she's a Repentia or not? She dawned the armor, draw the sword, and then continued with her penance, one might say. /wink
jeffersonian000 wrote: One point people miss is that Repentia are self-condemned. It is not that a Sister is religated to the Repentia as a punishment, it is that Repentia feel they have had a failure of faith and seek redemption in battle via ritualized repentance.
No, both can happen. Some are self-condemned, other are forced into it.
"Forced" might be the case of being heavily implied. We see this in one of the Sister novels where the Sister Superior is being leaned on to step down for her squad's failure, to which one of the squad volunteers for Repentia to absolve to squad of guilt. Then later on, when the actual Repentia are lead into battle, there is a certain implied envy on the part of the Battle Sisters watching. It seemed to me that Repentia is an accepted way out of a perceived lack of faith, much in the way of an honorable death mixed with a possible chance of redemption.
So, apparently, nobody shares my opinion of what Repentia should be?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: As for repentia, I dislike the way eviscerator are portrayed anyway. It all boils down to the huge, and not sensible power boost they got when they entered 40k, like everything that came from Inquisitor, the almostRPG game. They are supposed to be a huge barbaric chainsword. They should be a quite poor melee weapon, that do hit stronger than a regular chainsword, at the cost of a drawback. Right now they are literally better than a power fist! Repentia should not need to be protected by anything else than dirt-cheap point cost, with a rule that prevents them for holding objective. That way their actual purpose on the table would be to run at the nearest meat-grinder in order to buy their fellow Sisters some time by their death. Fluffy and flavorful.
Repentia should be only slightly more expensive than grots. Better than those at close combat, but unable to hold objective and no shooting weapon. About as fragile.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: As for repentia, I dislike the way eviscerator are portrayed anyway. It all boils down to the huge, and not sensible power boost they got when they entered 40k, like everything that came from Inquisitor, the almostRPG game. They are supposed to be a huge barbaric chainsword. They should be a quite poor melee weapon, that do hit stronger than a regular chainsword, at the cost of a drawback. Right now they are literally better than a power fist! Repentia should not need to be protected by anything else than dirt-cheap point cost, with a rule that prevents them for holding objective. That way their actual purpose on the table would be to run at the nearest meat-grinder in order to buy their fellow Sisters some time by their death. Fluffy and flavorful.
Repentia should be only slightly more expensive than grots. Better than those at close combat, but unable to hold objective and no shooting weapon. About as fragile.
I like it this alot
It was interesting that despite all the great fluff and new image is the Shield of Baal books no mention of them............
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: As for repentia, I dislike the way eviscerator are portrayed anyway. It all boils down to the huge, and not sensible power boost they got when they entered 40k, like everything that came from Inquisitor, the almostRPG game. They are supposed to be a huge barbaric chainsword. They should be a quite poor melee weapon, that do hit stronger than a regular chainsword, at the cost of a drawback. Right now they are literally better than a power fist! Repentia should not need to be protected by anything else than dirt-cheap point cost, with a rule that prevents them for holding objective. That way their actual purpose on the table would be to run at the nearest meat-grinder in order to buy their fellow Sisters some time by their death. Fluffy and flavorful. Repentia should be only slightly more expensive than grots. Better than those at close combat, but unable to hold objective and no shooting weapon. About as fragile.
I would disagree: I think what really gives the Repentia their "style" is the massive eviscerator. I modded my version of the models to increase it further (The standard models have "eviscerators" that are the size on chainswords).
They are Sisters who have nothing left BUT a chainblade, and by the Emperor it's massive!
I cannot see them as "leftovers" or canon-fodder as you describe them... When you say "in order to buy their fellow Sisters some time" i'd put it completely the other way: Standard Sisters should feel honored to be able to buy time for the revered warriors that are the repentia to reach the enemy. They are Sisters who, mostly by choice, decided to give themselves completely to the Emperor and not hide behind power armour. Elite Warriors, who, once they have repented would come back at the rank of canoness at the bare minimum, but all are would-be Saint Celestines!
On Penitent Engines, since those have gotten less talk time. Back in the day, when 2nd Ed was king and Sisters the new flavor of the month, I had hoped and prayed for a Sister Dread, lighter than a SM Dread, though faster, armed with duel-Meltas and twin Stormbolters (Meltas could be fired as Flamers back then). Then along came 3rd, and Witch Hunters, and the Penitent Engine, to which I was like "OMG, my Dread idea! Only with Saw Blades and Flamers! Why the F is it open top!?!? And why is a heretic strapped to the front all Mad Max style!?!?!?" And I never bought one.
Yet, Kiromazov presented an excellent opportunity to represent a Celestian Squad as a single model monstrous creature, a Sister piloting a "throne" with a twin-linked heavy weapon, Eviserator, good Toughness, good Strength, and a 2+ save ... only to see DreadKnights come out for the GK and I got all frawny-faced.
Next were the terribad mini-Dexes, which got me thinking "you know, Sisters have a lot a units identical to those Blood Angels over there, and they have flying Dreadnoughts with spears and shields, and Flamers! My little Ladies are now the Angelic Host!" To which, I started planning out my counts as Bangel army using Battle Sisters, Immolator-Razorbacks, Sister Rhinos, Whirlwind-Exorcists, Death Company Repentia, "Penitent" Furioso "Thrones", "Retribution" "Thrones", "Celestian" Librarian "Thrones", and the Sanguinator "St. Celestine". And let me tell you, I had a blast!
If GW does new rules for the Penitent Engine, please please please don't F it up like they've done twice now!!!!!
Codex: Witch-Hunters wrote:
To the Adepta Sororitas, those who seek absolution as a Sister Repentia occupy a state of grace that many aspire to, yet few ever attain, for to earn redemption is to give oneself entirely to the will of the Emperor. Confession and penance are part of a Sister's everyday existence, and those who fall short of the Sisterhood's rigorous codes may, in the most extreme of cases, find themselves exiled from their Order or banded into groups armed with the mighty ceremonial Eviscerators and lead into battle by the harsh mistresses. Indeed, through a deep-seated desire to seek the Emperor's grace, some may willingly exile themselves, finding fault in the smallest imagined transgressions. These Sisters become outcasts seeking death in the heat of battle, yet at the same time are revered by their Sisters, who see them as pilgrims seeking that which can only be found in death - absolution.
So, yep, still Sisters. Only now they are Sisters Repentia rather than Sisters Militant or Sisters Famulous or Sisters Dialogous or Sisters Pronatus or Sisters Belonging-To-Another-Type-Of-Order.
Hey, I think we agree.
To build on the last point a bit... if they weren't still Sisters of Battle, they wouldn't be called Sisters Repentia, they'd just be called Repentia or something. There are, after all, specific units/models of Sisters of non-Militant Orders (Dialoguous perhaps most memorably) that are called Sisters "Something", denoting their status as members of an Order of the Sororitas, while not being actual Battle Sisters (which is a Sister of an Order Militant).
Nope, now you contradict yourself. You can't be a Sister of Battle and a Repentia at the same time. Dialogus and Hospitallers are not Sisters.of Battle.
I think you're misunderstanding my use of the term "Sister". The Repentia are exiled from their order. They still remain a Sister, but they now become a Sister Repentia. I guess from the Order Repentia, though, I've never seen that referred to as an Order like the Hospitallers or Famulous. So, she is no longer a Battle Sister. No longer of the Order Militant. No longer part of the Adepta Sororitas. The Adepta Sororitas are the Sisters of Battle/Battle Sister/Sisters I'm referring to; the ones the Codex is named after. The Orders Famulous, Hospitallers, and Repentia are not Adepta Sororitas. I'm assuming that since those Orders are sorta doled-out to where they're needed, much like the Missionarius Galaxia, they're part of the Ecclesiarchy's over-arching authority.
If I was unclear as to how I was using the term Sister, my apologies. A Repentia's a Sister, but not a Battle Sister.
BlackTalos wrote: They are Sisters who have nothing left BUT a chainblade, and by the Emperor it's massive!
+1/2 str AP4 unwieldy. Maybe -1 WS.
BlackTalos wrote: I cannot see them as "leftovers" or canon-fodder as you describe them... When you say "in order to buy their fellow Sisters some time" i'd put it completely the other way: Standard Sisters should feel honored to be able to buy time for the revered warriors that are the repentia to reach the enemy. They are Sisters who, mostly by choice, decided to give themselves completely to the Emperor and not hide behind power armour. Elite Warriors, who, once they have repented would come back at the rank of canoness at the bare minimum, but all are would-be Saint Celestines!
Go to the lowest of the low before going back to the top. Very religious fanatic-like. 99% of them dies, those that do not are obviously destined for greatness.
Repentia are not honored by the way, they are outcasts.
I am guessing you are reading the posts 1 by 1 and replying in time? You asked for canon fluff on what the Repentia are and two of us gave you the answer a few posts up.
(That they ARE sisters just like any other, just in need of "ME" time)
@jeffersonian000
I've not been with Sisters that long, so cannot really comment on such, but i agree that a re-ruling of A LOT is needed for Sisters. It might happen, or they just get out the lazy way and hope a few Special Rules help out the model:
"- Oh look, we've given the Penitent engines Void Shields, because REASONS. Happy now?"
lol
Nitpick: "Adepta Sororitas" includes both Battle Sisters (the Orders Militant) and the Sisters Hospitaller, Dialogus, Famulous, Pronatus, etc (non-militant Orders). Presumably the Repentia count as Adepta Sororitas but not Battle Sisters, as if they were their own specialist Order.
“The Sisterhood is most commonly associated with the Battle Sisters of the Orders Militant. However, there are several major non-militant Orders of the Adepta Sororitas, most notably the Orders Famulous, Hospitaller and Dialogus, as well as many other minor Orders that may only number a hundred or so Sisters. Each Order dedicates itself to a specific role..."
Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Codex: Adepta Sororitas (eBook Edition).” Games Workshop Ltd, 2014-06-24. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
BlackTalos wrote: They are Sisters who have nothing left BUT a chainblade, and by the Emperor it's massive!
+1/2 str AP4 unwieldy. Maybe -1 WS.
BlackTalos wrote: I cannot see them as "leftovers" or canon-fodder as you describe them... When you say "in order to buy their fellow Sisters some time" i'd put it completely the other way: Standard Sisters should feel honored to be able to buy time for the revered warriors that are the repentia to reach the enemy. They are Sisters who, mostly by choice, decided to give themselves completely to the Emperor and not hide behind power armour. Elite Warriors, who, once they have repented would come back at the rank of canoness at the bare minimum, but all are would-be Saint Celestines!
Go to the lowest of the low before going back to the top. Very religious fanatic-like. 99% of them dies, those that do not are obviously destined for greatness.
Repentia are not honored by the way, they are outcasts.
The book i referred to earlier seems to point them out in a slightly different light.
Yes they are Outcasts, and "Shamed", but the other Sisters actually respect them quite a lot.
So, not honoured as in "praised, loved, *to show courteous behaviour towards*" definition of honoured, but the main definition:
"hold in great respect, hold in high esteem, have a high regard for"
Even if they don't show their affection, it's still there =P
Lol, hey you talking about sisters! let me link you the Codex.
I think that if the poster did not know of that link his argument would be completely void already =P
I will recommend the selfless Plug though!
Great Book, i'd recommend it if you ever even considered playing them!
I am guessing you are reading the posts 1 by 1 and replying in time? You asked for canon fluff on what the Repentia are and two of us gave you the answer a few posts up.
(That they ARE sisters just like any other, just in need of "ME" time)
Novels are not canon. Ask anyone who reads Star Wars or Star Trek fiction. Authors take liberties with their background material all the time. However, arguing GW canon borders on ridiculous since they change and retcon stuff to sell models on a regular basis, so I'll just keep my opinions as to why Sisters Repentia are not Sisters of Battle to myself
BlackTalos wrote: Yes they are Outcasts, and "Shamed", but the other Sisters actually respect them quite a lot.
Yeah, they respect repentia because they know the repentia made the final sacrifice and will just run into the meatgrinder to save their battle sisters some time .
Well, I like it that way personally. But realistically, GW will not change how eviscerator work, or make Repentia viable, in the next 10 years anyway, so…
I am guessing you are reading the posts 1 by 1 and replying in time? You asked for canon fluff on what the Repentia are and two of us gave you the answer a few posts up. (That they ARE sisters just like any other, just in need of "ME" time)
Novels are not canon. Ask anyone who reads Star Wars or Star Trek fiction. Authors take liberties with their background material all the time. However, arguing GW canon borders on ridiculous since they change and retcon stuff to sell models on a regular basis, so I'll just keep my opinions as to why Sisters Repentia are not Sisters of Battle to myself
I guess you are right (even if i really like that book), and for that i went to have a look at the Codex, which can only be the "pure canon" right? Guess what i found? Pretty much what i was saying lol:
"Although extremely rare, those few who return to the fold of their Order are held with great esteem by the Sisterhood. To the Adepta Sororitas, those who seek forgiveness in the Emperor’s eyes by treading the path of a Sister Repentia occupy a state of grace that many aspire to, yet few ever attain. Indeed, some Battle Sisters willingly exile themselves, finding fault in the smallest imagined transgression in order to join the ranks of the Repentia."
Codex: Witch-Hunters wrote:
To the Adepta Sororitas, those who seek absolution as a Sister Repentia occupy a state of grace that many aspire to, yet few ever attain, for to earn redemption is to give oneself entirely to the will of the Emperor. Confession and penance are part of a Sister's everyday existence, and those who fall short of the Sisterhood's rigorous codes may, in the most extreme of cases, find themselves exiled from their Order or banded into groups armed with the mighty ceremonial Eviscerators and lead into battle by the harsh mistresses. Indeed, through a deep-seated desire to seek the Emperor's grace, some may willingly exile themselves, finding fault in the smallest imagined transgressions. These Sisters become outcasts seeking death in the heat of battle, yet at the same time are revered by their Sisters, who see them as pilgrims seeking that which can only be found in death - absolution.
So, yep, still Sisters. Only now they are Sisters Repentia rather than Sisters Militant or Sisters Famulous or Sisters Dialogous or Sisters Pronatus or Sisters Belonging-To-Another-Type-Of-Order.
Hey, I think we agree.
To build on the last point a bit... if they weren't still Sisters of Battle, they wouldn't be called Sisters Repentia, they'd just be called Repentia or something. There are, after all, specific units/models of Sisters of non-Militant Orders (Dialoguous perhaps most memorably) that are called Sisters "Something", denoting their status as members of an Order of the Sororitas, while not being actual Battle Sisters (which is a Sister of an Order Militant).
Nope, now you contradict yourself. You can't be a Sister of Battle and a Repentia at the same time. Dialogus and Hospitallers are not Sisters.of Battle.
I think you're misunderstanding my use of the term "Sister". The Repentia are exiled from their order. They still remain a Sister, but they now become a Sister Repentia. I guess from the Order Repentia, though, I've never seen that referred to as an Order like the Hospitallers or Famulous. So, she is no longer a Battle Sister. No longer of the Order Militant. No longer part of the Adepta Sororitas. The Adepta Sororitas are the Sisters of Battle/Battle Sister/Sisters I'm referring to; the ones the Codex is named after. The Orders Famulous, Hospitallers, and Repentia are not Adepta Sororitas. I'm assuming that since those Orders are sorta doled-out to where they're needed, much like the Missionarius Galaxia, they're part of the Ecclesiarchy's over-arching authority.
If I was unclear as to how I was using the term Sister, my apologies. A Repentia's a Sister, but not a Battle Sister.
Except we apparently don't, since you had previously said:
Ergo, Repentia are not Sisters, they are Ecclesiarchy. Unless someone can cite canon otherwise.
Which is incorrect on its face, as all members of the Adepta Sororitas are Sisters, but only those of the Orders Militant are Sisters of Battle.
the_Armyman wrote: Novels are not canon. Ask anyone who reads Star Wars or Star Trek fiction.
Star Wars and Star Trek novels aren't canon because their publishers say they're not. Not because not being canon is some intrinsic property of novels. Either of those could be canon if their publishers decided to make them such, as was 'sort of' the case with the Star Wars novels until Disney took over.
40K novels are canon, because their publisher says so. They just aren't always in-universe 'factual' and may be contradictory.
Actually, GW's official position on what's 40K canon is that there is no canon:
Spoiler:
Lynata wrote: So, I'm gonna leave my usual set of quotes here:
"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong." -- Gav Thorpe
"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth." -- Andy Hoare
"There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting." -- Aaron Dembski-Bowden
... bottom line, 40k is what you make of it. The gamers and the readers are supposed to take possession of the setting and shape it as befits their individual preferences and purposes. It took me quite a while to "get this", for like many I came to the franchise believing that everything was supposed to fit together - an "urban myth" that even now is still propagated by some because that's what they were told from other fans ..
I'm a bit confused, though. Isn't the option "everything yet nothing" essentially the same as "things you agree with, nothing more"?
[edit] Oh, I forgot, I should write a bit about how I deal with the subject myself ...
Me, I'm staying as close to the GW studio fluff as possible, meaning the contents of codices, the rulebooks, magazines such as White Dwarf or Citadel Journal (RIP) and the stuff hosted on the various websites (free PDFs and short articles). Aside from me "growing up" with the tone and style of the studio's own writing, I also believe that this approach keeps me more compatible to the majority of future products from this origin than if I were to embrace one of the outsourced outlets of fluff instead, simply because all the GW stuff is written by the same circle of people (aside from the occasional change in personnel that occurs over the years), compared to the ideas and interpretations of the many, many different individual writers that work on novels etc. Many cooks, broth, etc. Even now, after over two decades, you still find references and even straight copied passages of text from the earliest days of the franchise in the newest rulebook. That is a consistency unparalleled by any other source of fluff, and I'm all for consistency.
Last but not least, even with the "laissez-faire" approach that GW has taken on the setting, it seems that people - including other authors - tend to look to GW for orientation first. This can be witnessed on outsourced material quickly picking up on, for example, the "Newcrons", rather than ignoring this pseudo-retcon. This exchange of ideas actually works both ways, but GW seems notably less likely to adopt something from BL (etc.) than the other way around. And don't count on seeing the contents of one BL novel referenced in another, except perhaps when they're part of a series .. and even then you'll have conflicts.
When it comes to GW sources, I'm also going with "newer source overrides older source" in case of any contradictions that cannot be worked around.
That doesn't mean that I do not incorporate anything that has not been printed elsewhere into my own personal interpretation of the 41st millennium, however. There are a number of aspects from various novels and games that I have adopted into my perspective as well, all depending on how cool I subjectively thought they were, as well as (perhaps even more important) how well they fit in or can be made to fit in. In this, I do not incorporate the entire product but just the things I liked.
The cherrypicking from non-GW sources is something I rarely discuss here, however, simply because that is even more personal and subjective than my preference for GW fluff, which I also regard as a sort of "common ground" between us. So, whenever I'm posting about fluff, consider it to be referring to GW material. Any exceptions to this will be specially marked by me, and usually take the form of suggestions of something to potentially draw inspiration from if the reader likes what he or she sees.
Interesting. That's a slightly changed message from the last statement I saw. Works just as well, though, if you're trying to avoid having a continuity editor.
Totalwar1402 wrote: Let me explain. This army would never have carried on its perpetual half life (with the bare minimum of prodding from GW lorewise) if it weren't for the fact that they are to all intents and purposes female space marines. A space marine is a gothic warrior from the far future who wears power armor and carries a monstrously huge gun. A sister of battle is a girl...and also a gothic warrior from the far future who wears power armor and carries a monstrously huge gun. Because of this, again despite minimal prodding from GW most fans know what Sisters of Battle are.
So a big part of the look of the army should be that they all wear some form of power armour. In fact rules wise they are the only non space marine army to give 3+ armor to their basic troops (since the change to Necron warriors).
As described above, repentia and pentitent engines do not fit with the general look or underlying theme of sisters of battle. Yes, they're religious fanatics and have the gothic look. But not to that extent and dispensing of armor gets rid of their whole identity as sisters of battle. It is the main distinguishing feature of sisters of battle and differentiates them from imperial guard for example. Whilst the Penitent engine just looks plain stupid with the pilot totally exposed. Standing alongside basic sisters the units look out of place and you wouldn't think they were part of the same army. Unlike for example a marine dread next to a regular marine. I really really hope they cut those units or at least don't bother updating them.
I also dislike the notion that the armies elite units with some of the best equipment should be its rejects...rather than regular sisters of battle. Surely the best equipment and the best trained units would be exemplars of being SoB.
Plus in such a small army, giving two unit slots over to non SoB units is just stupid. Especially because if they did do a plastic release then doing things like repentia and PE in plastic will take away attention from actual SoB units.
thats really all they are now that they cant sell sisters of battle in a store and attract the attentions of radical feminists. im going to be you anything thats one of the primary reasons the sisters are being buried as an army now. their too stupid to think up a way to use the sisters beyond eyecandy bdsm fetish nuns and as a result leave them locked up in the broom closet because if they brought them out now they would never get within ten feet of a house without some women looking at them in disgust and taking to tumblr to vent their rage. GW has enough problems the last thing they want is to get nailed to a wall in a PR fiasco that will only ever end badly. in my opinion the unit that need to go the most is the repentia. the pentient engine actually isnt that bad, perhaps in need of a new model but she is passable. the repentia and their mistress need to go; they need to be wiped from lore and from table rules. when they are gone i feel a lot of the issues people would have with the sisterhood would go away from a public opinion standpoint.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Let's hope they get rid of that Sister Dialogus blow up doll model instead....
She just needs a better face sculpt. If she was part of a multi-part plastic kit you could even use a different head to avoid that issue completely.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ionusx wrote: thats really all they are now that they cant sell sisters of battle in a store and attract the attentions of radical feminists.
Experiance has taught me that the attention of the feminist community, much less the extreme ends of it (like rad fems) isn't a great target market. It's interests as a movement don't line up well with the customer base as a whole. Sure individual feminists might, but the movement as a whole is not the customer 40k needs to try to pander to if it wants to come out of it as "40k".
ionusx wrote: im going to be you anything thats one of the primary reasons the sisters are being buried as an army now. their too stupid to think up a way to use the sisters beyond eyecandy bdsm fetish nuns and as a result leave them locked up in the broom closet because if they brought them out now they would never get within ten feet of a house without some women looking at them in disgust and taking to tumblr to vent their rage.
Sisters have one of the most conservative looking depictions of females in fiction. They are covered in (mostly, excusing the stupid boobplate) practical armor, aren't driven by sex, aren't sex objects, kick ass, take names and burn planets as needed and the only "BDSM" aspects you could argue have to do with aspects taken from religious penance rituals (like self-flogging and hair shirts).
Seriously, anyone who argues that Sisters are just BDSM nuns don't understand BDSM or religion enough to know what they're talking about.
ionusx wrote: GW has enough problems the last thing they want is to get nailed to a wall in a PR fiasco that will only ever end badly. in my opinion the unit that need to go the most is the repentia. the pentient engine actually isnt that bad, perhaps in need of a new model but she is passable. the repentia and their mistress need to go; they need to be wiped from lore and from table rules. when they are gone i feel a lot of the issues people would have with the sisterhood would go away from a public opinion standpoint.
Repentia don't "need to go". They need to be updated sure, but they don't need to be dropped.
The issues with the army publicly aren't the Repentia either (seriously, if I had to point anywhere, I'd point a finger at Dark Eldar if you really want to complain about BDSM and females wearing impractical outfits). It's the cost of the army ($90 gets you a basic squad. Play Marines and you get 2x 10 model squads plus bits for the same cost), the fact they haven't seen new models since 3rd edition, and rules that keep watering down aspects of the army (and the last codex seemingly only existing to get us to stop bitching we didn't have one in print while they removed more out of stock model options from the book). There is also the limited range (which is shrinking as they aren't renewing molds anymore it seems), lack of flexibility in the army, a lack of responsiveness to threats like flyers, and even when Sisters do show up to things (the Shield of Baal) they don't even get rules for anything.
So there is a lot holding the army back before you even think about the design of the Repentia.
I find it odd that people would assume that Sisters of Battle would somehow appeal to feminists more than the population as a whole.
You realize you're talking about bondage nuns with guns, right? Feminists are often really heavily split over the topic of sex-positivism as it is, never mind when the thing in question is explicitly designed by some gakky artist who just wants to insert his kinks in to a board game.
That's the thing about censoring Kinks, it's like anti-biotics. People grow to like what they see. You might be able to stop them from liking 1 thing, but they'll just learn to like something else.
If you forced all women to wear Burkah's (or your non-sexually threatening outfit of choice), then a whole generation will develop a Burkah fetish.
You can't stop Repentia or Sisters from being sexually appealing to someone.
Also I'm not seeing the Bondage in the SoB, some depictions of their power armour may look like a Corset, but it lacks the restraint and posterior correction that makes a Corset little more than fashion statement. Their armour isn't even that form fitting and doesn't exaggerate their figure. Repentia get a little closer to the mark, but they're dedicated to they're theme. They're Sexy in the same sense that Mel Brooks is sexy in the Passion of the Christ, not scantily clad Cheesecake in battle damaged outfits yet immaculate in body and skin.
Remember when Women's shoulder pads were in style?
jeffersonian000 wrote: I love that Sister Din has a Psyker icon on her left paldron, denoting her as a Psychic mutant. Oh how the Sisters have changed!
SJ
Back then that didn't really mean what it does now.
ionusx wrote: they would never get within ten feet of a house without some women looking at them in disgust and taking to tumblr to vent their rage.
You do realize that this has never ever stopped any company from releasing a product, and that only the most gullible element of the Gamergate crowd would believe otherwise, do you not?
Lynata wrote: So, I'm gonna leave my usual set of quotes here:
"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong." -- Gav Thorpe
"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth." -- Andy Hoare
"There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting." -- Aaron Dembski-Bowden
... bottom line, 40k is what you make of it. The gamers and the readers are supposed to take possession of the setting and shape it as befits their individual preferences and purposes. It took me quite a while to "get this", for like many I came to the franchise believing that everything was supposed to fit together - an "urban myth" that even now is still propagated by some because that's what they were told from other fans ..
I'm a bit confused, though. Isn't the option "everything yet nothing" essentially the same as "things you agree with, nothing more"?
[edit] Oh, I forgot, I should write a bit about how I deal with the subject myself ...
Me, I'm staying as close to the GW studio fluff as possible, meaning the contents of codices, the rulebooks, magazines such as White Dwarf or Citadel Journal (RIP) and the stuff hosted on the various websites (free PDFs and short articles). Aside from me "growing up" with the tone and style of the studio's own writing, I also believe that this approach keeps me more compatible to the majority of future products from this origin than if I were to embrace one of the outsourced outlets of fluff instead, simply because all the GW stuff is written by the same circle of people (aside from the occasional change in personnel that occurs over the years), compared to the ideas and interpretations of the many, many different individual writers that work on novels etc. Many cooks, broth, etc. Even now, after over two decades, you still find references and even straight copied passages of text from the earliest days of the franchise in the newest rulebook. That is a consistency unparalleled by any other source of fluff, and I'm all for consistency.
Last but not least, even with the "laissez-faire" approach that GW has taken on the setting, it seems that people - including other authors - tend to look to GW for orientation first. This can be witnessed on outsourced material quickly picking up on, for example, the "Newcrons", rather than ignoring this pseudo-retcon. This exchange of ideas actually works both ways, but GW seems notably less likely to adopt something from BL (etc.) than the other way around. And don't count on seeing the contents of one BL novel referenced in another, except perhaps when they're part of a series .. and even then you'll have conflicts.
When it comes to GW sources, I'm also going with "newer source overrides older source" in case of any contradictions that cannot be worked around.
That doesn't mean that I do not incorporate anything that has not been printed elsewhere into my own personal interpretation of the 41st millennium, however. There are a number of aspects from various novels and games that I have adopted into my perspective as well, all depending on how cool I subjectively thought they were, as well as (perhaps even more important) how well they fit in or can be made to fit in. In this, I do not incorporate the entire product but just the things I liked.
The cherrypicking from non-GW sources is something I rarely discuss here, however, simply because that is even more personal and subjective than my preference for GW fluff, which I also regard as a sort of "common ground" between us. So, whenever I'm posting about fluff, consider it to be referring to GW material. Any exceptions to this will be specially marked by me, and usually take the form of suggestions of something to potentially draw inspiration from if the reader likes what he or she sees.
It also fits in quite well with the whole "Shave off 90% Time-lapse" theory you had =)
jeffersonian000 wrote: I love that Sister Din has a Psyker icon on her left paldron, denoting her as a Psychic mutant. Oh how the Sisters have changed!
SJ
Back then that didn't really mean what it does now.
No, it always meant "Psyker". It's just that it represented Sister Sin's role as an Anti-Psyker battlefield Police officer, which way predates any association with the Ecclesiarchy. My old "Gabs, power armored adventure w/ Bolter and sword" has the same Psyker icon on her left shoulder, looking just like Sister Sin (only with a Mohawk instead of a Wipple).
ionusx wrote: they would never get within ten feet of a house without some women looking at them in disgust and taking to tumblr to vent their rage.
You do realize that this has never ever stopped any company from releasing a product, and that only the most gullible element of the Gamergate crowd would believe otherwise, do you not?
Preeeeeeetty much what I was thinking... Somebody isn't biased or unwilling to empathize with the other side at all. Most feminists probably wouldn't give enough of a damn about 40k to actually do anything about it - sexy-ing them up though might cost GW sales though. We've already had a few anecdotes in this thread about actual women who didn't go into 40k because of the exaggerated sexiness of the SOB models.
jeffersonian000 wrote: I love that Sister Din has a Psyker icon on her left paldron, denoting her as a Psychic mutant. Oh how the Sisters have changed!
SJ
Back then that didn't really mean what it does now.
No, it always meant "Psyker". It's just that it represented Sister Sin's role as an Anti-Psyker battlefield Police officer, which way predates any association with the Ecclesiarchy. My old "Gabs, power armored adventure w/ Bolter and sword" has the same Psyker icon on her left shoulder, looking just like Sister Sin (only with a Mohawk instead of a Wipple).
ionusx wrote: they would never get within ten feet of a house without some women looking at them in disgust and taking to tumblr to vent their rage.
You do realize that this has never ever stopped any company from releasing a product, and that only the most gullible element of the Gamergate crowd would believe otherwise, do you not?
Preeeeeeetty much what I was thinking... Somebody isn't biased or unwilling to empathize with the other side at all. Most feminists probably wouldn't give enough of a damn about 40k to actually do anything about it - sexy-ing them up though might cost GW sales though. We've already had a few anecdotes in this thread about actual women who didn't go into 40k because of the exaggerated sexiness of the SOB models.
I've seen some guys who felt the same way too.
Basically the boob plate is the biggest visual short coming for Sisters in most people's eyes.
I really think it's the general culture and some of the gamers that put women off, not the Sisters of Battle range which I know several women to have liked.
ionusx wrote: they would never get within ten feet of a house without some women looking at them in disgust and taking to tumblr to vent their rage.
You do realize that this has never ever stopped any company from releasing a product, and that only the most gullible element of the Gamergate crowd would believe otherwise, do you not?
Preeeeeeetty much what I was thinking... Somebody isn't biased or unwilling to empathize with the other side at all. Most feminists probably wouldn't give enough of a damn about 40k to actually do anything about it - sexy-ing them up though might cost GW sales though. We've already had a few anecdotes in this thread about actual women who didn't go into 40k because of the exaggerated sexiness of the SOB models.
I've seen some guys who felt the same way too.
Basically the boob plate is the biggest visual short coming for Sisters in most people's eyes.
Oh that's a good point, especially the torpedotits on the Mistress and the Canoness. That wouldn't be too difficult to tone down and even keep it reasonably feminine-looking still.
Damn, this is making me want to draw up some concept art.
Furyou Miko wrote: Considering that it's the only hat tipped to their femininity, that's mostly interesting.
The problem is the lack of practicality annoys some and the size annoys others. Basically they aren't bad per say but could be better. And with better molding tech and detail levels there are ways to make the look more feminine that don't just rely on the boobs (better face sculpts for example).
Furyou Miko wrote: Considering that it's the only hat tipped to their femininity, that's mostly interesting.
And with better molding tech and detail levels there are ways to make the look more feminine that don't just rely on the boobs (better face sculpts for example).
Good sculpting would be enough - just look at the Diaz' Daemonettes!
Sure, there are breasts, but the model is clearly feminine despite the monstrous elements.
Yeah, the best theory I've heard about Sororitas boobplate is that each cup is detachable and contains communications equipment.... Someone drew a cartoon of it in use once.
SisterSydney wrote: Yeah, the best theory I've heard about Sororitas boobplate is that each cup is detachable and contains communications equipment.... Someone drew a cartoon of it in use once.
How about this for the Penitent Engine? It's a Monstrous Critter with unusual stats (since the "pilot" is literally mounted on the front, totally exposed, albeit pumped full of drugs, and so really is not tougher than a person and should be killable by small-arms fire).
This way the pilot can be killed by lasgun fire, but it takes a lot of it, but a melta or krak missile will blow up the whole construct (which looks pretty flimsy).
WS 3 BS 3 S 5 T 4 W 3 A 2 I 4 Ld 7 Sv 5+
Special Rules: Fearless, Furious Charge, Feel No Pain, Fleet, Rampage
Wargear
Two heavy flamers
Two buzz saws
***
Buzz saws
S +2 AP 4 Shred, Specialist Weapon
Cost: Cheap (50 points?). Available in squadrons of, I dunno, 3? More?
---
If we compare it to the Canoptek Spyder, another 50 point Monstrous Creature, it has...
+1 WS, +1 BS, -1 S, -2 T, +2 I, -3 Ld, -2 Sv.
In exchange, it gains Furious Charge, Feel No Pain, Fleet, Rampage, two heavy flamers, those silly weapons (AP4 means nothing on a MC)...
Including the weapons, its profile actually shifts
+1 WS, +1 BS, +1 S, -2 T, +2 I, +1 A, -3 Ld, -2 Sv
It's going to mulch infantry as it should, but it's fragile. It's going to be taken down by bolters that the Spyder could reliably shrug off. In short, it's a Heavy Weapon Guy away from a dead model per turn. Damage output is well worth 50 points, but just like the Walker version, its never going to see combat.
With the PE I'm honestly all for it going up in points cost from now as long as it becomes a more reliable option because right now you need to be kind of crazy to field enough of them to actually have them for them to be useful. I say crazy because you need to own and build them (and I have yet to see anyone make resin copies of the PE which would solve how hard it is to assemble) and then be willing to put 9+ of them into an army to saturate the table with enough to make them useful.
Yeah, it has a normal person strapped to the front with no protection. I gave it T4 following the notion that bikes give you +1T. And this allows it to be ID'd by ahti-tank weapons, but still be resistant to small arms, especially with FNP.
ClockworkZion wrote: Dreadknights have a T4 model strapped to the front but still aren't T4.
I'm not a fan of how Dreadknights function.
It's T4 for two reasons.
1. The pilot is totally unprotected, whereas the for DK at least he is wearing power armour and has something in the way of covering.
2. More importantly, T4 makes the PE IDable by standard anti-tank weapons, making it in effect a flimsier walker despite not using the vehicle rules. And the thing looks flimsy, and in fluff is supposed to be flimsy. It is literally a suicide suit. (Hmm. Maybe it should blow up when it dies.) While Feel No Pain means that it will still be resistant to small arms.
At least in my imagining of it, it is kind of an MC version of Repentia -- something cheap fielded in large numbers to throw at the enemy, who has to respond to it because if it manages to hit their lines it will do serious damage. And in the meantime the rest of the army (which is based on short-range shooting) is advancing unmolested.
I'll state my stance from the beginning and then explain.
Stance: I disagree and do not hope they ditch them from the SOB product lineup.
Reasoning:
1. Currently the Sister models are extremely expensive and a lot of people have invested significant amounts of money into Penitent Engines and Repentia Sisters. To cut them from the SOB lineup would be a kick in the teeth for those people.
2. It makes sense in their fluff, extremely religious nut-heads punishing themselves or others for crimes either real or imagined.
Well if they fail to kill anything they make a nice heavy Metal Object to throw. lol . Yes they are very front heavy that is why they are set on the base the way they are. In the middle of base they would just fall forward. I have not fielded them since the digital Dex came out. Mainly Because Exorcists are King and all 3 slots are filled with them.
Alcibiades wrote: 1. The pilot is totally unprotected, whereas the for DK at least he is wearing power armour and has something in the way of covering.
Yeah, this is part of what makes the PE look so silly. In the case of arcoflagellant, you just have one human that has been turned into something much, much more deadly. So the result is actually more likely to actually reach combat than a normal human: he will disregard any fear for personal safety, will run faster than any human could, and will ignore any wound that is not directly crippling (and even then will likely continue to try to attack, just less efficiently). They are likely to die even if they do not suffer any injury from the enemy, because of the backlash of the drugs and the inhuman effort they submit their bodies to. Loosing them is not a problem. The penitent engine, though? The pilot makes a much easier target to focus than the arcoflagellant, being strapped up and standing quite a bit higher than the normal soldier, completely unable to evade anything. Contrast that to the hunched up silhouette of an arcoflagellant… And when the pilot is lost, the whole machine become completely useless. This is why I do not like the concept.
ClockworkZion wrote: Dreadknights have a T4 model strapped to the front but still aren't T4.
I'm not a fan of how Dreadknights function.
It's T4 for two reasons.
1. The pilot is totally unprotected, whereas the for DK at least he is wearing power armour and has something in the way of covering.
2. More importantly, T4 makes the PE IDable by standard anti-tank weapons, making it in effect a flimsier walker despite not using the vehicle rules. And the thing looks flimsy, and in fluff is supposed to be flimsy. It is literally a suicide suit. (Hmm. Maybe it should blow up when it dies.) While Feel No Pain means that it will still be resistant to small arms.
At least in my imagining of it, it is kind of an MC version of Repentia -- something cheap fielded in large numbers to throw at the enemy, who has to respond to it because if it manages to hit their lines it will do serious damage. And in the meantime the rest of the army (which is based on short-range shooting) is advancing unmolested.
The armor on the Dreadknight gives it the 2+ save. It's standard Terminator Armor though and has nothing to do with why it's not a T4 model.
And frankly, yes, it looks flimsier, but making it that weak is going to leave it on the shelf. No one is going to run a MC that can be ID'd that easilly.
ClockworkZion wrote: Dreadknights have a T4 model strapped to the front but still aren't T4.
I'm not a fan of how Dreadknights function.
It's T4 for two reasons.
1. The pilot is totally unprotected, whereas the for DK at least he is wearing power armour and has something in the way of covering.
2. More importantly, T4 makes the PE IDable by standard anti-tank weapons, making it in effect a flimsier walker despite not using the vehicle rules. And the thing looks flimsy, and in fluff is supposed to be flimsy. It is literally a suicide suit. (Hmm. Maybe it should blow up when it dies.) While Feel No Pain means that it will still be resistant to small arms.
At least in my imagining of it, it is kind of an MC version of Repentia -- something cheap fielded in large numbers to throw at the enemy, who has to respond to it because if it manages to hit their lines it will do serious damage. And in the meantime the rest of the army (which is based on short-range shooting) is advancing unmolested.
The armor on the Dreadknight gives it the 2+ save. It's standard Terminator Armor though and has nothing to do with why it's not a T4 model.
And frankly, yes, it looks flimsier, but making it that weak is going to leave it on the shelf. No one is going to run a MC that can be ID'd that easilly.
That's why you make it cheap as hell, so you can throw flocks of them at the enemy.
Maybe gove it Shield of Faith? Or whatever it's called.
ClockworkZion wrote: Dreadknights have a T4 model strapped to the front but still aren't T4.
I'm not a fan of how Dreadknights function.
It's T4 for two reasons.
1. The pilot is totally unprotected, whereas the for DK at least he is wearing power armour and has something in the way of covering.
2. More importantly, T4 makes the PE IDable by standard anti-tank weapons, making it in effect a flimsier walker despite not using the vehicle rules. And the thing looks flimsy, and in fluff is supposed to be flimsy. It is literally a suicide suit. (Hmm. Maybe it should blow up when it dies.) While Feel No Pain means that it will still be resistant to small arms.
At least in my imagining of it, it is kind of an MC version of Repentia -- something cheap fielded in large numbers to throw at the enemy, who has to respond to it because if it manages to hit their lines it will do serious damage. And in the meantime the rest of the army (which is based on short-range shooting) is advancing unmolested.
The armor on the Dreadknight gives it the 2+ save. It's standard Terminator Armor though and has nothing to do with why it's not a T4 model.
And frankly, yes, it looks flimsier, but making it that weak is going to leave it on the shelf. No one is going to run a MC that can be ID'd that easilly.
That's why you make it cheap as hell, so you can throw flocks of them at the enemy.
Maybe gove it Shield of Faith? Or whatever it's called.
"Flocks" won't make them worth taking if any Heavy Weapons team packed with Missile Launchers can clear whole units at a time.
ClockworkZion wrote: Dreadknights have a T4 model strapped to the front but still aren't T4.
I'm not a fan of how Dreadknights function.
It's T4 for two reasons.
1. The pilot is totally unprotected, whereas the for DK at least he is wearing power armour and has something in the way of covering.
2. More importantly, T4 makes the PE IDable by standard anti-tank weapons, making it in effect a flimsier walker despite not using the vehicle rules. And the thing looks flimsy, and in fluff is supposed to be flimsy. It is literally a suicide suit. (Hmm. Maybe it should blow up when it dies.) While Feel No Pain means that it will still be resistant to small arms.
At least in my imagining of it, it is kind of an MC version of Repentia -- something cheap fielded in large numbers to throw at the enemy, who has to respond to it because if it manages to hit their lines it will do serious damage. And in the meantime the rest of the army (which is based on short-range shooting) is advancing unmolested.
The armor on the Dreadknight gives it the 2+ save. It's standard Terminator Armor though and has nothing to do with why it's not a T4 model.
And frankly, yes, it looks flimsier, but making it that weak is going to leave it on the shelf. No one is going to run a MC that can be ID'd that easilly.
That's why you make it cheap as hell, so you can throw flocks of them at the enemy.
Maybe gove it Shield of Faith? Or whatever it's called.
"Flocks" won't make them worth taking if any Heavy Weapons team packed with Missile Launchers can clear whole units at a time.
T4 MCs are literally useless.
Tyrannid Warriors and Crisis Suits and Broadsides are in the same boat. And cost more. So are Nobs -- any multiwound T4 model, of which there are a lot. Wraiths.
Come to think of it, a heavy weapons team packed with missile launchers can do the same thing to the current Penitent Engines.
Anyway, it's just an idea I had -- I have no intention of translating it into reality.
Alcibiades wrote: Tyrannid Warriors and Crisis Suits and Broadsides are in the same boat. And cost more. So are Nobs -- any multiwound T4 model, of which there are a lot. Wraiths.
Come to think of it, a heavy weapons team packed with missile launchers can do the same thing to the current Penitent Engines.
Anyway, it's just an idea I had -- I have no intention of translating it into reality.
Tyranid Warriors are an Infantry unit, not a Monstrous Creature Unit. They're also easier to hide for cover saves.
And I'm pretty sure Broadsides can buy invul saves and have a decent armor save.
A T4 Monstrous Creature Penitent Engine is just a bad idea. It's basically making them more fragile than they are now since they'd be wounded/killed on a 2+ vs S8 instead of glanced on a 3/penned on a 4+ vs S8.
ClockworkZion wrote: "Flocks" won't make them worth taking if any Heavy Weapons team packed with Missile Launchers can clear whole units at a time.
For 10 points a model I would totally take them. Those missile launcher spent on Penitent Engine are missiles that will not kill my more expensive Sisters .
In the event of TEOTWAWKI and Sisters get a new codex, GW will either 1) get rid of pengines since they are metal or 2) give them a beautiful, dual-build plastic kit that will still be rubbish rules-wise
Alcibiades wrote: Tyrannid Warriors and Crisis Suits and Broadsides are in the same boat. And cost more. So are Nobs -- any multiwound T4 model, of which there are a lot. Wraiths.
Come to think of it, a heavy weapons team packed with missile launchers can do the same thing to the current Penitent Engines.
Anyway, it's just an idea I had -- I have no intention of translating it into reality.
Tyranid Warriors are an Infantry unit, not a Monstrous Creature Unit. They're also easier to hide for cover saves.
And I'm pretty sure Broadsides can buy invul saves and have a decent armor save.
A T4 Monstrous Creature Penitent Engine is just a bad idea. It's basically making them more fragile than they are now since they'd be wounded/killed on a 2+ vs S8 instead of glanced on a 3/penned on a 4+ vs S8.
Broadsides have a very good armour save, but that will not protect them from lascannons or meltas, which will ID them, and they're both huge and static. And getting an invul, save makes their posts cost go through the roof (to 80 points I think?).
There is a lot of internet white-knighting in here... :-p
For what it is worth, my wife LOVES her Sisters of Battle, and their aesthetic. Part of what appealed to her was tough/empowered seeming women, some of which voluntarily are exposed.
Similarly, not all women are sexually repressed and feel offended by the eroticism of the female form. Again, my wife thinks units like Repentia look really cool, and she owns/painted several units.
Based on sales of books like 50 Shades of Grey, I am going to imagine that things like the aesthetic of Sisters/Adepta aren't what offend female gamers, as much as talking about them like exotic animals, only rumored to be in the wild. :-p
Psienesis wrote: ... if they were going to get rid of units because they are metal, the Sisters would no longer have an army at all.
Well, the idea of them getting a new Codex is sorta predicated on new plastic kits. We've seen large metal or Finecast kits get axed during a complete overhaul. Again, come the apocalypse...
ClockworkZion wrote: "Flocks" won't make them worth taking if any Heavy Weapons team packed with Missile Launchers can clear whole units at a time.
For 10 points a model I would totally take them. Those missile launcher spent on Penitent Engine are missiles that will not kill my more expensive Sisters .
True, but would you really field them at any point level higher than 10? At 20 a T4 model on a Dreadnought sized base becomes pretty laughable.
Alcibiades wrote: Tyrannid Warriors and Crisis Suits and Broadsides are in the same boat. And cost more. So are Nobs -- any multiwound T4 model, of which there are a lot. Wraiths.
Come to think of it, a heavy weapons team packed with missile launchers can do the same thing to the current Penitent Engines.
Anyway, it's just an idea I had -- I have no intention of translating it into reality.
Tyranid Warriors are an Infantry unit, not a Monstrous Creature Unit. They're also easier to hide for cover saves.
And I'm pretty sure Broadsides can buy invul saves and have a decent armor save.
A T4 Monstrous Creature Penitent Engine is just a bad idea. It's basically making them more fragile than they are now since they'd be wounded/killed on a 2+ vs S8 instead of glanced on a 3/penned on a 4+ vs S8.
Broadsides have a very good armour save, but that will not protect them from lascannons or meltas, which will ID them, and they're both huge and static. And getting an invul, save makes their posts cost go through the roof (to 80 points I think?).
Anyway, just an idea.
Meltas are fairly short range and weren't really on the table here (and would mince the proposed PE), and Lascannons don't make too many lists because of their points cost, and are better served firing at heavy tanks or things like the the Riptide.
If Broadsides cost 80pts with an invul, that puts them on a level field with the Penitent Engines, and I bet most people would take the Broadsides long-range firepower of the Engines CC wrecking, much as I love them.
Penitent Engines and Repentia are kinda the only ties SOB currently have to being 'ultra-religious nutbags', really the only thing showing just how dark the Imperium has become. Hope they don't scratch them.
Farseer Anath'lan wrote: If Broadsides cost 80pts with an invul, that puts them on a level field with the Penitent Engines, and I bet most people would take the Broadsides long-range firepower of the Engines CC wrecking, much as I love them.
Penitent Engines and Repentia are kinda the only ties SOB currently have to being 'ultra-religious nutbags', really the only thing showing just how dark the Imperium has become. Hope they don't scratch them.
Well that and the Exorcist and the Ecclesiarchy stuff.
If anything the army needs more crazy religious stuff, not less. Less moves them more towards being watered down Marines instead of a fully realized army in my mind.
Broadsides have a very good armour save, but that will not protect them from lascannons or meltas, which will ID them, and they're both huge and static. And getting an invul, save makes their posts cost go through the roof (to 80 points I think?).
With the repentia and penitent engine, maybe it's worth thinking about what they are -- which is "buy time" units.
The GW designers seem to have given short-range shooting armies (like Necrons, Nids to some extent, and Sisters) lots of "buy time" units. By which I mean that they are supposed to give the rest of the army time to move up into shooting range unmolested. They are generally fast and/or have Infiltrate, have a lot of damage output, but aren't very durable. This means Genestealers, Flayed Ones, Wraiths, Lictors. Their job is to force the enemy to deal with them instead of the bulk of the advancing army.
(That most of them seem to be overpriced, according to most players, is probably an indication of the value GW sees in such units.)
In the case of Sisters, Repentia and Penitent Engines seem intended to play this role.
Does this seem right to the more experienced players?
Wraiths are durable. They ahnd 3+ invuls and 2 wounds. Give them a D. Lord with weave and they can now tank S8 AP3 attacks (which would have otherwise instant kill them) with impunity. In fact, I would say wraiths are slightly under priced.
Flayed ones are still crap though. An expendable "buy time" unit should not take up a precious elite slot, and there isn't really incentive to target them because they just aren't that effective in combat.
Scarabs are more of a distraction unit, imo. They are pretty fast, and are a threat to vehicles, meaning that they are a worthy target to go after.
They do take a fast attack slot though. I would have preferred it if they didn't take any slot at all, considering how there are supposed to be so many of them.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Wraiths are durable.
They ahnd 3+ invuls and 2 wounds. Give them a D. Lord with weave and they can now tank S8 AP3 attacks (which would have otherwise instant kill them) with impunity.
In fact, I would say wraiths are slightly under priced.
Well they are more durable against high-AP attacks, but against bolters or lasguns they are just 2 marines.
I agree that they are underpriced, not least because they make Triarch Praetorians totally pointless.
Anyway my point wasn't about whether units are priced correctly or not, but about "battlefield roles" as envisioned by GW.
Well yeah, there are cannon fodder units, but those units are usually pretty cheap and come in large numbers, or have a fair number of wounds for their points.
Grots, rippers, conscripts and cultists come to mind.
There are also what I like to call "suicide squads," which are quasi-expendable units which are relatively inexpensive, who are meant to hurt the enemy a lot, but usually die in the process.
Problem with Repentia is that for a fodder unit they can't be taken in large enough units to be visually scary, lack a good delivery system and have no way to otherwise improve their durability since their standard FnP was pulled. They are crud at being a good screen because of their cost and bad at being a viable threat due to their low durability.
Penitent Engines are a little faster, but compete with Exorcists, aren't really fast enough to make up for their incredibly short range and are too expensive to use as cheaper fodder.
Basically all the conditions for being a cheap fodder unit are just wrong for both. Same with being a scary threat. They have he worst of both with little to none of the perks.
ClockworkZion wrote: Problem with Repentia is that for a fodder unit they can't be taken in large enough units to be visually scary, lack a good delivery system and have no way to otherwise improve their durability since their standard FnP was pulled. They are crud at being a good screen because of their cost and bad at being a viable threat due to their low durability.
Penitent Engines are a little faster, but compete with Exorcists, aren't really fast enough to make up for their incredibly short range and are too expensive to use as cheaper fodder.
Basically all the conditions for being a cheap fodder unit are just wrong for both. Same with being a scary threat. They have he worst of both with little to none of the perks.
Yeah, that's what I was thought. Don't they have eviscerators though, and can deal a bit of damage before dying horribly?
ClockworkZion wrote: Problem with Repentia is that for a fodder unit they can't be taken in large enough units to be visually scary, lack a good delivery system and have no way to otherwise improve their durability since their standard FnP was pulled. They are crud at being a good screen because of their cost and bad at being a viable threat due to their low durability.
Penitent Engines are a little faster, but compete with Exorcists, aren't really fast enough to make up for their incredibly short range and are too expensive to use as cheaper fodder.
Basically all the conditions for being a cheap fodder unit are just wrong for both. Same with being a scary threat. They have he worst of both with little to none of the perks.
Yeah, that's what I was thought. Don't they have eviscerators though, and can deal a bit of damage before dying horribly?
Aren't eviscerators unweildy? So not only can they not shoot, they are unlikely to deal damage before dying in CC to anything remotely capable
ClockworkZion wrote: Problem with Repentia is that for a fodder unit they can't be taken in large enough units to be visually scary, lack a good delivery system and have no way to otherwise improve their durability since their standard FnP was pulled. They are crud at being a good screen because of their cost and bad at being a viable threat due to their low durability.
Penitent Engines are a little faster, but compete with Exorcists, aren't really fast enough to make up for their incredibly short range and are too expensive to use as cheaper fodder.
Basically all the conditions for being a cheap fodder unit are just wrong for both. Same with being a scary threat. They have he worst of both with little to none of the perks.
Yeah, that's what I was thought. Don't they have eviscerators though, and can deal a bit of damage before dying horribly?
Aren't eviscerators unweildy? So are unlikely to deal damage before dying anyway
That is an unfortunate possibility, yes
They are still great theoretical tank killers though. Tanks can't punch back
They can theoretically murder a lot of things but tend to fail to deliver on that theory as a they can't get to their targets effectively without requiring whole other units to be their screens.
Not good at being chaff, not good at being scary murderers.
Furyou Miko wrote: If you can get a full squad of Repentia to charge a target, it will die. Getting a full squad to charge is hard...
Since losing the standard FnP, getting one to make the charge is hard. Getting a full squad across is like playing Dark Souls with your feet while blindfolded.
I'd make Penitent Engines able to be taken as Elites or Heavies (Space Marines can get Dreadnaughts as Elites or Heavies).
I'd also give the PE assault grenades, so it can at least strike before Unwieldy if it has to charge through terrain (Ironclad Dreadnaughts can purchase Assault Launchers which give them the benefit of both Assault and Defensive Grenades).
Then I'd increase the front armour to make it 12/11/10 Open Topped. Expand the Unstoppable rule (which currently makes it immune to Crew Shaken/Stunned) to also make it ignore Immobilised results on a die roll (5+?). I'd up the point cost from 80 to 100-110.
I think that would balance it much better compared to other Close Combat walkers. Soul Grinders and Ironclads are both AV13 walkers (which are quite nasty in CC since krak grenades can't hurt them), Maulerfiends have the benefits of the Demon, Fleet and It Will Not Die rules and Deff Dreads are cheaper with AV12/12/10 and not being open-topped.
Furyou Miko wrote: If you can get a full squad of Repentia to charge a target, it will die. Getting a full squad to charge is hard...
Since losing the standard FnP, getting one to make the charge is hard. Getting a full squad across is like playing Dark Souls with your feet while blindfolded.
What if...you use a rhino to block line of sight to them, and move the rhino out of the way before making their charge?
It is a rhino. If the rhino explodes and take out 4 repentia, it destroyed more than its own point cost. I am fairly sure the enemy will have enough firepower to destroy ONE rhino, which is one of the most fragile transport in the game.
But that's a lot of points, and if you're bringing a Land Raider, you might as well support it with Bloodclaws or something, rather than using it as a bulldozer.
As I see a Penitent Engine, it's not AV12 like a sealed Dreadnought - it's actually a lot closer to an AV10 (non-Armored) Sentinel (35 pts w/ HF) or AV11 Kan (55 pts w/ S7 Klaw & Skorcha).
Pilot is a Repentia so WS4 BS4 I3 base skills for consistency in theme.
It's monstrously strong (S6) and fighty (A3), but ungainly (I3). Weapons are Power Axes(S+2 AP2) with integral Flamers.
Penitent Engine WS4 BS4 S6(8) AV11/10/10 I3 A3(4) HP3 Ld10
2x Power Axe (AP2) (w/ Flamer)
Open-Topped, Fleet, Rage, Shield of Faith (6++), Hammer of Wrath
Elite, Squadron of 1-3 models, 55 pts each.
In HtH, they don't need S10, which switches the role to anti-armor, but paired Axes gives +1A and S8 for Instant Death against all MEQs in HtH; AP2 to give TEQs a pause in HtH. Flamers vs HFs keep the cost down a bit more, and will do just fine against massed GEQs before wading in.
Carry the core Repentia rules: Fleet, Rage and Shield of Faith over MTC, Rampage & IWND. Similar function, but better for army consistency.
When the PEs charge, they have Hammer of Wrath and Rage for +2A = 6x S8 AP2 attacks per model. Good stuff!
55 points based on 35-pt Sentinel with +0 swap HF to 2x Flamer, +20 pts Axes
A PE is definitely not a Walker. This is not a organic, sentient thing like a Wraithlord. It is a piloted machine, akin to a Dreadnought. The exposed pilot makes it Open-Topped.
That Fluff detail is completely irrelevant from a rules and stats POV, which is all that I really care about.
It makes no difference if the person is a "heretic". It is still a penitent of some sort, within a Sisters context, so Sisters rules generally apply.
Trying to capture every nuance in a "special snowflake" way creates unnecessary rules bloat and complication where none is necessary.
There is no obvious reason why a PE-bound "heretic" would need different stats or rules from a Repentia, other than to be different purely for the sake of being different.
If it makes you feel better, please change the word "Repentia" in my previous post to "penitent" and we can move on.
Penitent Engine WS4 BS4 S6(8) AV11/10/10 I3 A3(4) HP3 Ld10
2x Power Axe (AP2) (w/ Flamer)
Open-Topped, Fleet, Rage, Shield of Faith (6++), Hammer of Wrath
... because it shouldn't get Shield of Faith or an Act of Faith! The person strapped to the front of this thing simply lacks the purity of faith the Sisters do... and is, in fact, being injected with piety, directly to the central nervous system.
... unless that AoF was "Apotheosis", which causes the Penitent Engine to explode in a ball of holy fire, centering a Large Blast Marker on it and causing a S10 hit to all models caught under the blast.
Yeah, I want the thing as squishy, explody, fast and hard-to-hit as it looks and is described.
Since the thing is described as fast and erratic, careening wildly across the battlefield, it should have a 4+ Jink. It is purely an offensive unit, a PE has no defensive application (other than the "off" switch)
HoW on the charge seems to fit. Low AV seems to fit as, being a Walker, it always takes hits on the front AV in CC... which means the pilot/penitent. Rage, Berserk, Hatred (Everything)... these things fit the idea of a drug-addled, mind-repurposed maddened heretic unleashed on the enemies of the Emperor in the cause of his/her own death/absolution.
Psienesis wrote: Yeah, I want the thing as squishy, explody, fast and hard-to-hit as it looks and is described.
Since the thing is described as fast and erratic, careening wildly across the battlefield, it should have a 4+ Jink. It is purely an offensive unit, a PE has no defensive application (other than the "off" switch)
HoW on the charge seems to fit. Low AV seems to fit as, being a Walker, it always takes hits on the front AV in CC... which means the pilot/penitent. Rage, Berserk, Hatred (Everything)... these things fit the idea of a drug-addled, mind-repurposed maddened heretic unleashed on the enemies of the Emperor in the cause of his/her own death/absolution.
If it has erratic movement, shouldn't it have random movement? Like a spawn?
Though, unlike a Spawn, there is a reasonably-intelligent mind guiding the thing...so maybe somewhat less variance to their movement.
Yeah, an intelligent mind in agony and hopped on whatever that thing is pumping. If I understand the purpose of that thing correctly, the only thought that should be in that mind is PURGE HERESY PURGE HERESY PURGE HERESY! REDEMPTION Repeat ad infinitum.
Psienesis wrote: Yeah, I want the thing as squishy, explody, fast and hard-to-hit as it looks and is described.
Since the thing is described as fast and erratic, careening wildly across the battlefield, it should have a 4+ Jink. It is purely an offensive unit, a PE has no defensive application (other than the "off" switch)
HoW on the charge seems to fit. Low AV seems to fit as, being a Walker, it always takes hits on the front AV in CC... which means the pilot/penitent. Rage, Berserk, Hatred (Everything)... these things fit the idea of a drug-addled, mind-repurposed maddened heretic unleashed on the enemies of the Emperor in the cause of his/her own death/absolution.
If it has erratic movement, shouldn't it have random movement? Like a spawn?
If that's the case, then the PE should scatter 2d6" in a random direction for movement, half distance toward the small arrow on a "Hit!"... HoW anything it bumps into.
I strongly dislike the idea of a 4++ Jink save, as it's too good and represents a sort of skill and maneuverability that is not applicable.
What if the penitent engine got buffs depending on how many enemies are close to it?
The pilot / prisoner / victim is meant to have an unbearable urge to redeem himself by killing the enemy, so many it becomes stronger the more enemies there are.
Or gets stronger the more damage it takes. Like, for every certain number of hits it receives, it gets +1 strength or something.
The PE to me should really be a berserker type unit; a violent and unpredictable monstrosity that just wants to murder all day, even if it gets destroyed in the process.
Arco-Flagellant - 10 pts each
WS5 BS1 S3(5) T3 W1 I3 A3(4) Ld8 Sv-
2x Arco-Flails (S+2 AP-)
Feel No Pain
An AF is just a unarmored person (T3 W1 I3 Sv-) running around with 2 huge weapons. Drugs provide some durability via Feel No Pain, which roughly equates to a 5++ Invulnerable save. The big thing is WS5 BS1 A3 - that's pretty awesome and a great fit for a crazed killing machine.
Embiggening the Arco-Flagellant, we keep the WS5 BS1, and double the S values to S6(10 with DNCCW). Translate the T3 W1 over as AV10/10/10 Open-Topped with 2 HPs like a basic Scout Sentinel. Add the Flamers, because BS1. Also Hammer of Wrath because it starts like a Sentinel.
That leaves FNP, which translates over to IWND. Sentinel has MTC & Scout, which are at odds with the PE's purpose - swap those for Rage (+2A charging) and Rampage (+d3A when outnumbered).
Points-wise, we start at 35 pts for the Sentinel,
+0 to swap Guardsman to Arco-Flagellant,
+0 to swap the HF for 2 Flamers
+20 pts to add the 2 DNCCWs.
Penitent Engine WS5 BS1 S6(10) AV10/10/10 I3 A3(4) HP2 Ld10
2x DNCCW (w/ 1 Flamer ea)
Open-Topped, Hammer of Wrath, Rage, Rampage, It Will Not Die.
Elite, Squadron of 1-3 models, 55 pts each.
In most cases, each PE will be rolling 8x WS8 S10 AP2 attacks when charging. That's some pretty mean stuff, if it reaches HTH.
Fleet would be really nice, but it's not obvious that it's something that the model should have for free. Tho if we had the current 80-pt budget, Fleet would be a given, along with AV11 and the weapon upgrades to HFs instead of Flamers. Thing is, I like simpler PEs at a lower point cost. They become easier to take as less of a points investment and less of a risk.
The Jink could be justified as not skill of the pilot but just pure random movement, hard to target because it's impossible to judge where it's going to lurch to next, especially if combined with the random movement of a Spawn.
At 4+, it's a 50/50 chance that it just keeps lurching/staggering/speeing out of the way of things that would otherwise almost assuredly kill it.
The problem is that a bit of random movement just doesn't change the target position that much to warrant a huge 50-50 auto-save against everything. Particularly compared to determined evasion and making deliberate use of cover, etc. Even then, Jink is too good.
Random movement creates a "wind-up" automaton, which is less a part of one's army, and more a force of nature. I remember wind-up Berzerkers, but a lot of players hated them. In the case of a PE, it would also have to be a threat to the player's army when it goes the wrong direction, like a Night Goblin Fanatic or uncontrolled Squig. For how poorly Sisters are received, adding a reason not to take something is a bad idea.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The problem is that a bit of random movement just doesn't change the target position that much to warrant a huge 50-50 auto-save against everything. Particularly compared to determined evasion and making deliberate use of cover, etc. Even then, Jink is too good.
Random movement creates a "wind-up" automaton, which is less a part of one's army, and more a force of nature. I remember wind-up Berzerkers, but a lot of players hated them. In the case of a PE, it would also have to be a threat to the player's army when it goes the wrong direction, like a Night Goblin Fanatic or uncontrolled Squig. For how poorly Sisters are received, adding a reason not to take something is a bad idea.
Well, the idea behind them kind of *is* a "wind-up automaton". After all, the guy/girl strapped (or crucified) to the front of it doesn't actually guide where it goes (which is a correction from my earlier statement, it's the logic-engine of the machine that pilots it)... the occupant of the machine actually appears to be entirely incidental to its operation.
I'm not a fan of random movement myself, and that's the kind of thing that usually leaves models on the shelf. Make it move towards the nearest visible enemy like the old Rage rule did and you'd have it fitting the fluff nicely.
Plus unlike most of the other old Rage units it's choppy enough to kill most things it touches.
Sure, the PE as proposed above has a good chance of killing what it touches.
The problem is that it has to get there...
AV10 Open-Topped makes these things not particularly sturdy units, and they are large enough not to get cover by anything short of a vehicle (unlike a Dread which can be screened by ordinary SMs).
These are classic "glass cannon" units, with the challenge that they need to move into HTH against an opponent who likely recognizes them to be killy enough to want to avoid HtH with one.
Being so fragile, even mandatory movement is a problem because it means it often gets hung out and autodestroyed.
So, we assume the "logic engine" is smart enough to use cover and position, to wait for an opportune moment, or to even use retrograde movement to ensure survival until it can charge to best effect - IOW, regular player control.
IMO, the fragility and limited functionality of the unit provides ample tactical challenge for most players, but a high potential payoff (6+ WS5 S10 AP2 attacks!!!) and low price (55 pts, or less) can make it tempting.
Penitent Engine WS5 BS1 S6(10) AV10/10/10 I3 A3(4) HP2 Ld10
2x DNCCW (w/ 1 Flamer ea)
Open-Topped, Hammer of Wrath, Rage, Rampage, It Will Not Die.
Elite, Squadron of 1-3 models, 55 pts each.
In most cases, each PE will be rolling 8x WS8 S10 AP2 attacks when charging. That's some pretty mean stuff, if it reaches HTH.
Fleet would be really nice, but it's not obvious that it's something that the model should have for free. Tho if we had the current 80-pt budget, Fleet would be a given, along with AV11 and the weapon upgrades to HFs instead of Flamers. Thing is, I like simpler PEs at a lower point cost. They become easier to take as less of a points investment and less of a risk.
I started what ended up being a four-page thread on how to fix the Penitent Engine, and I don't think we came up with anything this good. You might want to make it faster, though, which would fit both the fluff and the tactical role.
As for tweaks to the current Pengine, the most straightforward fix we came up with was to let it move as if it were Cavalry, which gets it into combat faster. That's what I used in my fandex/expandex, since I was trying to add on to the current digital dex rather than replace it.
Thing is, I like simpler PEs at a lower point cost. They become easier to take as less of a points investment and less of a risk.
Completely agree with this. Even with no stat or rule buffs at all the PE would be usable if the point cost was reduced. ThougI would prefer to see it get the how/rage/rampage/iwnd combo.
Thing is, I like simpler PEs at a lower point cost. They become easier to take as less of a points investment and less of a risk.
Completely agree with this. Even with no stat or rule buffs at all the PE would be usable if the point cost was reduced. ThougI would prefer to see it get the how/rage/rampage/iwnd combo.
I agree with this as well. I think the problem with PE is that it simply shares a slot with the infinitely superior Exorcist. If nothing else but its slot changed, it would already see more use.
I come from a 'Nid and Ork background, so throwing many threat vectors at an opponent with cheap, expendable, but deadly options, is something familiar to me. A few separate PE's in addition to a full list full of other threats like Dominions, good jump-infantry, etc... would mean that a couple perhaps do get to the fight and earn back all of their points... OR they soak up fire that would've been directed to other things by a scared opponent.
There is a place for them, maybe even as-is... but not in the Heavy slot... or without formations.
Hell, I would run the formation from the Codex that is meant for Apoc. Make that a "normal" formation, freeing up slots, and we'd talk. :-p
Oh, and yes... as-is, but in the Elite slot, and at 60pts... I'd take a few every single game. They'd essentially be Mega-Armor-Nobs on crack, without a transport (but who can run).
Yes, as an FA option they would be vastly more useful... but their current slot both makes no sense for the role the unit is intended for, and it competes with another unit that is superior in every way.
I don't know about Fast Attack. Would you give up a squad of Scouting/Outflanking Dominions with four Ignores Cover meltaguns, plus Immolator, for three Penitent Engines? Would you give up a Deep Striking squad of Seraphim with Shred? It really depends on the stats and your playstyle, I guess, but it's hardly an easy decision.
My patch in my fandex/expandex was to let them move as Cavalry and then let a Confessor unlock PE as an Elites choice, the way a Master of the Forge unlocks Dreadnaughts as a Heavy Support choice. I think Elites is a better option than Fast Attack.
Penitent Engine WS5 BS1 S6(10) AV10/10/10 I3 A3(4) HP2 Ld10
2x DNCCW (w/ 1 Flamer ea)
Open-Topped, Hammer of Wrath, Rage, Rampage, It Will Not Die.
Elite, Squadron of 1-3 models, 55 pts each.
In most cases, each PE will be rolling 8x WS8 S10 AP2 attacks when charging. That's some pretty mean stuff, if it reaches HTH.
Fleet would be really nice, but it's not obvious that it's something that the model should have for free. Tho if we had the current 80-pt budget, Fleet would be a given, along with AV11 and the weapon upgrades to HFs instead of Flamers. Thing is, I like simpler PEs at a lower point cost. They become easier to take as less of a points investment and less of a risk.
I started what ended up being a four-page thread on how to fix the Penitent Engine, and I don't think we came up with anything this good. You might want to make it faster, though, which would fit both the fluff and the tactical role.
As for tweaks to the current Pengine, the most straightforward fix we came up with was to let it move as if it were Cavalry, which gets it into combat faster. That's what I used in my fandex/expandex, since I was trying to add on to the current digital dex rather than replace it.
First, glad you like it.
Second, wow, that thread... 100+ pt PEs? The consensus seems to be that they're not really worth 80 pts to most players, so increasing the point cost to make them more like Bjorn the Fell-Handed is probably the wrong direction.
But I do see the discussion on speed. Cavalry is very good, but this isn't a quadruped thing that can gallop - it's still a Sentinel, hardwired kill-crazy pilot notwithstanding. We don't need to get into the Ork Looted failure / self-destruction rules, which are simply another reason not to take a model.
The Maulerfiend is an interesting point of comparision.
+10 pts to replace magma cutters w/ Lasher Tendrils (-1A to opponents BtB)
The design concept is very different from a Sentinel / PE. The Maulerfiend is fast (M12" Fleet MTC) and tough (AV12 Sv5++ HP3 IWND), so he's pretty much guaranteed to get into combat - but not uber-killy as he only has 4 attacks on the charge. He's bad news, because he's relatively hard to kill, so he can get in and just be a pain that keeps digging and digging.
In revisiting the PE, would drop IWND (which probably doesn't get used that much) in favor of Fleet and a minimal 6++ field (which is generally useful, and not out of the question for such units, allowing the completely exposed pilot), and adding a few options:
- may exchange both Flamers for Defensive and Assault Grenades for free.
- may upgrade both Flamers to Heavy Flamers for +10 pts
- may upgrade power field to 5++ for +10 pts
This version is a little bit faster and more reliable in movement, compared to the Sentinel it's based on. It is somewhat less likely to fail reaching HtH when needed, while not being so dramatically faster that it justifies a points cost increase.
2.5 PEs charged by Maulerfied with Lashers (-2A each), the Maulerfiend will have 3 attacks for 1 hit, Destroying 1 PE. The 2.5 PEs will have 2A each for 3 hits, likely Destroying the Fiend. This is the quantity vs quality advantage of a lower base points cost.
Slot-wise, it's definitely NOT a Heavy, and I like it as an Elite, representing an upgrade from an Arco-Flagellant. Swapping IWND for Fleet, I am OK with the PE as a Fast pick.
SisterSydney wrote: I don't know about Fast Attack. Would you give up a squad of Scouting/Outflanking Dominions with four Ignores Cover meltaguns, plus Immolator, for three Penitent Engines? Would you give up a Deep Striking squad of Seraphim with Shred? It really depends on the stats and your playstyle, I guess, but it's hardly an easy decision.
My patch in my fandex/expandex was to let them move as Cavalry and then let a Confessor unlock PE as an Elites choice, the way a Master of the Forge unlocks Dreadnaughts as a Heavy Support choice. I think Elites is a better option than Fast Attack.
Elites would make them compete with Repentia in a Repentance themed army though.
SisterSydney wrote: My patch in my fandex/expandex was to let them move as Cavalry and then let a Confessor unlock PE as an Elites choice, the way a Master of the Forge unlocks Dreadnaughts as a Heavy Support choice. I think Elites is a better option than Fast Attack.
Elites would make them compete with Repentia in a Repentance themed army though.
D'oh. I did not think that through. Maybe I should let the Confessor switch them to Fast Attack, after all, or make the upgrade to Cavalry-style movement turn them into FA (and make it cheaper...).
But look how good I'm being, I'm not even linking to my own homebrew or even mentioning i... damn.
ClockworkZion wrote: Elites would make them compete with Repentia in a Repentance themed army though.
In a Repentence-themed army, I'd assume a different FOC:
- massed units of up to 20 Arco-Flagellants and/or Militia as Troops,
- Repentia as Elites,
- roving Priests, etc. from HQ,
- squadrons of PEs as Fast.
It would be glorious.
It would not have to follow the existing SoB / AS Codex FOC.
Unfortunately it says they're for use in Apocalypse.
You could probably argue for their use in regular games though now, considering how 7th Edition has played out. I'd hardly call them overpowered now that Lords of War and Super-Heavy Vehicles are in regular games. I suppose the only 'problem' is that they're fairly large formations model wise. The Repentant Host (3 units of 10+ Repentia, 3+ Penitent Engines: Gain Rampage and It Will Not Die and can re-roll Feel No Pain) is 705pts minimum.
You could probably argue for their use in regular games though now, considering how 7th Edition has played out. I'd hardly call them overpowered now that Lords of War and Super-Heavy Vehicles are in regular games. I suppose the only 'problem' is that they're fairly large formations model wise. The Repentant Host (3 units of 10+ Repentia, 3+ Penitent Engines: Gain Rampage and It Will Not Die and can re-roll Feel No Pain) is 705pts minimum.
It's also useless now that Repentia only have FnP 1-2 times a game during the assault phase.
ClockworkZion wrote: Elites would make them compete with Repentia in a Repentance themed army though.
In a Repentence-themed army, I'd assume a different FOC:
- massed units of up to 20 Arco-Flagellants and/or Militia as Troops,
- Repentia as Elites,
- roving Priests, etc. from HQ,
- squadrons of PEs as Fast.
It would be glorious.
It would not have to follow the existing SoB / AS Codex FOC.
Different FOC charts still pull units from the same slots though, so if you put a new FOC in it'd still need the models to be in the correct slots first.
The formation would need to be updated with the new repentia/pe builds and costs.
For both I think simpler and cheaper is the way to go. They don't necessarily need a stat/rule buff. They just need to cost what they are worth.
Though the how/rampage/fnp/iwnd combo would be nice. Assuming they came in larger units (20-30) would you field the repentia we have now if they were five points a piece?
Inspired by John Hang's excellent effort, I took a shot at building a new Penitent Engine out of a Sentinel using Ovion's costing methods, and I ended up with something significantly more expensive -- in part because I'm paying more for some things than John is, in part because I'm paying for some things (e.g. Scout) that John doesn't have. (I love Scout). I'm very interested in what folks think of the two approaches and how to get the best of both.
Arco-Flagellant - 10 pts each
WS5 BS1 S3(5) T3 W1 I3 A3(4) Ld8 Sv-
2x Arco-Flails (S+2 AP-)
Feel No Pain
An AF is just a unarmored person (T3 W1 I3 Sv-) running around with 2 huge weapons. Drugs provide some durability via Feel No Pain, which roughly equates to a 5++ Invulnerable save. The big thing is WS5 BS1 A3 - that's pretty awesome and a great fit for a crazed killing machine.
Embiggening the Arco-Flagellant, we keep the WS5 BS1, and double the S values to S6(10 with DNCCW). Translate the T3 W1 over as AV10/10/10 Open-Topped with 2 HPs like a basic Scout Sentinel. Add the Flamers, because BS1. Also Hammer of Wrath because it starts like a Sentinel.
That leaves FNP, which translates over to IWND. Sentinel has MTC & Scout, which are at odds with the PE's purpose - swap those for Rage (+2A charging) and Rampage (+d3A when outnumbered).
Points-wise, we start at 35 pts for the Sentinel,
+0 to swap Guardsman to Arco-Flagellant,
+0 to swap the HF for 2 Flamers
+20 pts to add the 2 DNCCWs.
Penitent Engine WS5 BS1 S6(10) AV10/10/10 I3 A3(4) HP2 Ld10
2x DNCCW (w/ 1 Flamer ea)
Open-Topped, Hammer of Wrath, Rage, Rampage, It Will Not Die.
Elite, Squadron of 1-3 models, 55 pts each.
In most cases, each PE will be rolling 8x WS8 S10 AP2 attacks when charging. That's some pretty mean stuff, if it reaches HTH.
Fleet would be really nice, but it's not obvious that it's something that the model should have for free. Tho if we had the current 80-pt budget, Fleet would be a given, along with AV11 and the weapon upgrades to HFs instead of Flamers. Thing is, I like simpler PEs at a lower point cost. They become easier to take as less of a points investment and less of a risk.
Start with a Scout Sentinel: 35 points
Keep Scout, it's entirely appropriate for something that races ahead of the main force screaming bloody murder: +/-0
Replace Move Through Cover with Rage: +/- 0
Change WS:3 BS:3 to PE's WS:4 BS:2: +/- 0
Add +2 Attacks: +20
Replace Multi-Laser with Heavy Flamer: +/-0
Replace Heavy Flamer with two regular Flamers: +/-0:
Add Rampage: +10
Add 2 Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons: +20
Add Shield of Faith: +10 (yes, it's +5 on a Rhino, this ain't a Rhino)
Total additions: 60 points
New total cost: 95 points -- 15 more than the original Pengine.
Note I didn't manage to fit It Will Not Die in there....
Now, this is something faster than a regular Pengine but even less durable (Armour 10/10/10, 2 Hull Points, and not Unstoppable). To make it as durable as the original, using Ovion's methods, we'd have to pay another 40 points, bringing total cost to a whopping 135, but perhaps that's fair for a Scouting, Rampaging Penitent Engine with decent armour and 3 HP:
Up armor to 11/11/10: +20
Add 1 Hull Point (i.e. 1 Wound): +10
Add Unstoppable: +10 maybe?
@SS - Please note that I re-tweaked with Fleet replacing IWND a few posts later, having reviewed all four pages of the previous PE "fix" thread.
JohnHwangDD wrote: In revisiting the PE, would drop IWND (which probably doesn't get used that much) in favor of Fleet and a minimal 6++ field (which is generally useful, and not out of the question for such units, allowing the completely exposed pilot), and adding a few options:
- may exchange both Flamers for Defensive and Assault Grenades for free.
- may upgrade both Flamers to Heavy Flamers for +10 pts
- may upgrade power field to 5++ for +10 pts
This version is a little bit faster and more reliable in movement, compared to the Sentinel it's based on. It is somewhat less likely to fail reaching HtH when needed, while not being so dramatically faster that it justifies a points cost increase.
As others have suggested, cheaper is better, and I would recommend that one target the base points cost for a PE in the 55-75 pt range. From a design standpoint, adding more stuff to a marginally-armored Sentinel chassis has issues of fragility.
Ah, thanks, I thought I was missing something. Though my copy of the rules suggests you would end up with A:2, since only the second DNCCW gives you a bonus attack: the first is what gives you double Strength and AP:2.
Also, does any Codex actually give a point cost for a Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon? The PE comes with two standard, so there's no price for that specific weapon I can find, and Marine Dreadnoughts use power fists instead....
SisterSydney wrote: Ah, thanks, I thought I was missing something. Though my copy of the rules suggests you would end up with A:2, since only the second DNCCW gives you a bonus attack: the first is what gives you double Strength and AP:2.
Also, does any Codex actually give a point cost for a Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon? The PE comes with two standard, so there's no price for that specific weapon I can find, and Marine Dreadnoughts use power fists instead....
Can't you buy DCCWs for Defilers? I can't recall the cost off the top of my head though. If you used PFs as a baseline though, 25pts per DCCW would be overpriced after the first one IMHO, since the first one gives you Sx2 AP2, whereas each additional one gives you only +1A (and a backup weapon if you get a Weapon Destroyed result of course).
Oh, right, a Power Fist and a generic DCCW are identical stat-wise [EDIT: except DCCWs don't suffer from Unwieldy...]. And yes, 50 points for a pair seems a bit much....
I thought that, but I couldn't find the rule written anywhere -- can you point me to the right place?I am an idiot it's right in the write-up for "Unwieldy" hurr durr
ClockworkZion wrote: Repentia at 5ppm would likely be too low. I mean that's Guard level for something that can cleave a land raider (assuming they reach it).
You understand my point though. The cost is the problem with Repentia, though they really could use a unit size increase to go along with a point reduction.
SisterSydney wrote: Though my copy of the rules suggests you would end up with A:2, since only the second DNCCW gives you a bonus attack: the first is what gives you double Strength and AP:2.
Also, does any Codex actually give a point cost for a Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon? The PE comes with two standard, so there's no price for that specific weapon I can find, and Marine Dreadnoughts use power fists instead....
I started with an A3 pilot, though.
I don't think DNCCWs are worth 25 pts, though:
- C:SM allows you to replace the PF with a 15-pt Missile Launcher for +10 pts, so that places the PF value at 5 pts.
- C:BA allows you to replace the PF with a 15-pt Missile Launcher for +5 pts, so that places the PF value at 10 pts.
I thought +10 pts per DNCCW to be a fair result based on the more expensive BA example.
____
Repentia should generally compare with Inquistion Death Cult Assassins, Arco-Flagellants and Crusaders.
- 15 pts each in Codex: Inquisition, 10 pts for Combat Servitor
- 10/15 pts each in C: Sororitas
Repentia are worth no less than 10 points, and no more than 15 pts. At 14 pts, the points cost is not unreasonable.
Good point about Power Fist costing. Actually C:SM is letting you pay 10 points to replace the PFand the Storm Bolter, which is nominally 5 points in itself, so you could make the argument that a DCCW costs... nothing. GW, WTF?
I'm still not sure swapping a Guard pilot for an Arco-flagellant is a way to get +2 Attacks for free -- I don't think any vehicle in the game pays for its pilot separately from the vehicle itself, except for a handful of SCs like Pask.
I don't see any reason to make the Penitent Engines cheaper than they already are. They sit nicely between Imperial Guard Pricing (Sentinels) and Space Marine Pricing (Dreadnoughts). Same thing with Repentia. If you want to people to start calling them Female IG instead of Female Space Marines, then that might help.
Instead they should be more reliable so they're worth their cost. You shouldn't need to spam them to ensure reliability through numbers, that's Imperial Guard Tactics. Read my previous post shilling about my Fandex (in signature below) for how I'd buff Penitent Engines and repentia.
Overall the Sisters of Battle shouldn't have units as cheap and spammable as the Imperial Guard. They're an elite fighting force that can saturate the battlefield with slightly more bodies than Space Marines can afford.
@SisterSydney: You over apply Ovion's guide to just about everything. I don't think it should be used in this case or that the IG sentinel should be the base model. Also Walkers ignore the Unwieldy rule it's in the vehicle description section of the rulebook.
ClockworkZion wrote: Repentia at 5ppm would likely be too low. I mean that's Guard level for something that can cleave a land raider (assuming they reach it).
You understand my point though. The cost is the problem with Repentia, though they really could use a unit size increase to go along with a point reduction.
Oh I agree. I'd love to see them be cheaper, to mach their tissue paper effectiveness (or at least get FnP back to make their current cost feel more fitting) and a 5-20 unit size.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
A Town Called Malus wrote: I swear, it seems that the Sisters of Battle have the most fandexes out of any army
Shows how dedicated the players are to their army, I guess
Or how desperate we are to have an army that is fun and interesting to play.
I think the initial white dwarf Repentia were pretty much placed correctly - 6++ followed by a 4+ Feel no Pain, with the ability to strike once even if they die.
Furyou Miko wrote: I think the initial white dwarf Repentia were pretty much placed correctly - 6++ followed by a 4+ Feel no Pain, with the ability to strike once even if they die.
They just needed to be priced like current Repentia to be perfect.
Furyou Miko wrote: I think the initial white dwarf Repentia were pretty much placed correctly - 6++ followed by a 4+ Feel no Pain, with the ability to strike once even if they die.
They just needed to be priced like current Repentia to be perfect.
Mhmm, I was thinking 5+ FNP and Angelic Visage for their current price to be reasonable.
Furyou Miko wrote: I think the initial white dwarf Repentia were pretty much placed correctly - 6++ followed by a 4+ Feel no Pain, with the ability to strike once even if they die.
They just needed to be priced like current Repentia to be perfect.
Mhmm, I was thinking 5+ FNP and Angelic Visage for their current price to be reasonable.
I could kind of see the Angelic Visage thing, or perhaps a bonus to their Shield of Faith (to a 5++) through a Faithful rule.
)
There's a fine line between displaying repentance and fetishization though, which makes a redesign somewhat tricky (for that matter, hopefully GoT doesn't screw up this line... although it's HBO, I imagine they'll default to titillation).
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