Right now, in Europe, a lot of people are on the streets / on the fence fearing the "islamization" of the western world and this incident strangely fits into these times / ideas. It's a very debated topic over here, especially with the number of refugees ever rising and most likely continuing to rise, some countries wanting to shut down borders or just moving immigrants across to the next country.
Soladrin wrote: We aren't superior, we are different. We do better in some fields and worse in others when compared to the US.
And yeah, like sig said, this ties in very well with the whole fear of islamization over here.
Which is why I said it was crap. It's pretty often we Americans receive a lot of flak over dumb crap, especially on here, and I'll admit my first thought was rubbing it back... but it's wrong to do so.
Soladrin wrote: We aren't superior, we are different. We do better in some fields and worse in others when compared to the US.
And yeah, like sig said, this ties in very well with the whole fear of islamization over here.
Which is why I said it was crap. It's pretty often we Americans receive a lot of flak over dumb crap, especially on here, and I'll admit my first thought was rubbing it back... but it's wrong to do so.
To be fair, America just gets a lot more screentime in the media. I could start posting the daily moronic things that happen in my tiny country and ruin your view of it as well.
djones520: I've been guilty of that myself in the past, but it is irritating to see people play the smug superior card over the US posters here. So I commend your post- I respect it!
Hope they catch the arsonist. Scandinavia has a bit of a history of church burning. Wonder if it's the same bunch?
Soladrin wrote: We aren't superior, we are different. We do better in some fields and worse in others when compared to the US.
And yeah, like sig said, this ties in very well with the whole fear of islamization over here.
Which is why I said it was crap. It's pretty often we Americans receive a lot of flak over dumb crap, especially on here, and I'll admit my first thought was rubbing it back... but it's wrong to do so.
Well, you sort of did it by saying you weren't going to do it... Kind of passive-aggressive.
Nordic country, burning of a religious edifice, possible racism… I blame trve black metal . The Trve Kvlt 3v1l Bl4ck Methvl 2: return of the vengeance of the son of the Inner Black Circle.
At least back in the days, they waited for the church to be empty before burning it. Hope the injured will heal fine.
Most probably some neo-nazi types or some other racists who have bought in to the stupid Breivik-style bullgak about islamisation. Hope the police catch the perpatrators soon.
We have had a worrying development here the last couple of years with the right wing populists having a bit of a break through in the last two elections, getting 12% in the last. The last time we had a surge of right wing populism (in the 90's) we also got more racist attacks and neo-nazi activity. If we are to believe the Swedish Security Service and EXPO (anti-racist magazine founded by the guy who wrote The Girl With The Dragon Tatoo, similar to Searchlight in the UK) we are seeing a somewhat similar development this time.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The attack has been indentified by the police as a hate crime. I just also read that the Swedish Security Service probably will be involved in the investigation, which might mean that the Security Service might consider this as an act of terrorism or a politically motivated crime.
jorny wrote: Most probably some neo-nazi types or some other racists who have bought in to the stupid Breivik-style bullgak about islamisation. Hope the police catch the perpatrators soon.
We have had a worrying development here the last couple of years with the right wing populists having a bit of a break through in the last two elections, getting 12% in the last. The last time we had a surge of right wing populism (in the 90's) we also got more racist attacks and neo-nazi activity. If we are to believe the Swedish Security Service and EXPO (anti-racist magazine founded by the guy who wrote The Girl With The Dragon Tatoo, similar to Searchlight in the UK) we are seeing a somewhat similar development this time.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The attack has been indentified by the police as a hate crime. I just also read that the Swedish Security Service probably will be involved in the investigation, which might mean that the Security Service might consider this as an act of terrorism or a politically motivated crime.
I find the comparison betwen neo-nazis and the swedish democrats a litlte strange, considerign that their main goal is to reduce the immigration by 50%, which considering the massive immigration rates that sweden has now is only sensible. This is because at the current rates sweden simply cannot integrate all these people, which causes damage both to the immigrants and to sweden. This can be seen for example in the fact, that sweden is facing a severe lack of appartements at the moment.
However, it of course is very horrible that a building was burned, and I also hope that the people that this will be jailed, as there seems to be no justification for this.
This is what happens when you call the public racist for not accepting that immigration in high numbers is OK just because the government said it was ok. It drives people to violence as there is no means of dialogue. By all means keep calling them Nazis if you want this to continue.
Funnily enough Sweden has seen its immigration levels increase rapidly and also its incidents of rape.
Couldn't possibly be connected.
A sixty-year-old crucifix in a small Austrian town has met an inglorious end after being cut down by a recent addition to the neighbourhood who declared it an “eyesore” and attacked it with an angle-grinder.
The cross, which was erected in the Grossenzersdorf, a small suburb of Vienna, after the Second World War, and has been a popular way point for church processions and pilgrimages since ,stood on the grass verge outside one of the properties on Grossenzersdorf’s Augasse. Shortly after the new resident, a man described by local media as ‘Egyptian’ moved in, he started complaining to neighbours and even his local government about the crucifix.
Keen to appease the new arrival, local mayor Hubert Tomsic even discussed moving the cross with him: “I had a conversation with the man about repositioning the cross at a different location in the alley – at his expense”.
The offer was clearly not enough, however. TheLocal.at reports the man was heard saying to his neighbours soon after moving in: “I don’t want that. It has to go!”. The man soon began renovations at his new property and as part of that acquired an angle-grinder that he used to cut the historic cross down.
Besides the damage to the base, the cross also suffered damage to the knees of Christ when it fell.
The mayor has called the act of vandalism “radical”, “offensive”, and “inflammatory”. The local branch of the ruling Christian Conservative party has reported the act to police and made an official complaint.
The act of vandalism has also drawn criticisms from fellow Muslims. Local faith leaders said the act had caused “consternation”. They said under the teachings of Islam Muslims should respect the symbols of other religions.
Medium of Death wrote: This is what happens when you call the public racist for not accepting that immigration in high numbers is OK just because the government said it was ok. It drives people to violence as there is no means of dialogue. By all means keep calling them Nazis if you want this to continue.
Funnily enough Sweden has seen its immigration levels increase rapidly and also its incidents of rape.
Couldn't possibly be connected.
I have never said that SD are nazis only that racists and neo-nazis feel encouraged in a climate of more open anti immigrant sentiment. The fact is that %87 if Swedes have voted for parties that aren't against immigration and immigrants, so I don't know what you mean with "the public". And your reasoning that this has happened for any other reason that a racist scumbag who hates muslims decided to commit an act of terror is frankly insulting. Oh, and I call bullgak on your claim that there are more incidents of rape, there are however according to for instance BRÅ more people who report that they have been raped. I haven't seen any serious sources saying that we have more incidents of rape per capita now than we had let say 50 years ago.
jorny wrote: Most probably some neo-nazi types or some other racists who have bought in to the stupid Breivik-style bullgak about islamisation. Hope the police catch the perpatrators soon.
We have had a worrying development here the last couple of years with the right wing populists having a bit of a break through in the last two elections, getting 12% in the last. The last time we had a surge of right wing populism (in the 90's) we also got more racist attacks and neo-nazi activity. If we are to believe the Swedish Security Service and EXPO (anti-racist magazine founded by the guy who wrote The Girl With The Dragon Tatoo, similar to Searchlight in the UK) we are seeing a somewhat similar development this time.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The attack has been indentified by the police as a hate crime. I just also read that the Swedish Security Service probably will be involved in the investigation, which might mean that the Security Service might consider this as an act of terrorism or a politically motivated crime.
I find the comparison betwen neo-nazis and the swedish democrats a litlte strange, considerign that their main goal is to reduce the immigration by 50%, which considering the massive immigration rates that sweden has now is only sensible. This is because at the current rates sweden simply cannot integrate all these people, which causes damage both to the immigrants and to sweden. This can be seen for example in the fact, that sweden is facing a severe lack of appartements at the moment.
However, it of course is very horrible that a building was burned, and I also hope that the people that this will be jailed, as there seems to be no justification for this.
The Swedish housing shortage is a huge issue that has almost nothing to do with immigration and a lot more to do with things like too little competition in the building sector, regulations around interest rates, a slow planning process with too many appeals and that the law about public housing companies was changed so that they have to operate like for profit companies.
Sweden doesn't have a massive immigration rate. We had about 116 000 people moving to Sweden in 2013. 50 000 (many of those former immigrants to Sweden) moved from Sweden. 19 000 of those moving to Sweden had work permits meaning that they were researchers to the universities and skilled labor and specialists hired by companies. 8000 were students. 20 000 were EU citizens with the largest group probably coming from the nordic countries. That leaves around 19 000 refugees and such to a country of 9 million, meaning that if spread out evenly, each of the 290 municipalities would get 65 immigrants each.
Medium of Death wrote: This is what happens when you call the public racist for not accepting that immigration in high numbers is OK just because the government said it was ok. It drives people to violence as there is no means of dialogue. By all means keep calling them Nazis if you want this to continue.
Funnily enough Sweden has seen its immigration levels increase rapidly and also its incidents of rape.
Couldn't possibly be connected.
I have never said that SD are nazis only that racists and neo-nazis feel encouraged in a climate of more open anti immigrant sentiment. The fact is that %87 if Swedes have voted for parties that aren't against immigration and immigrants, so I don't know what you mean with "the public". And your reasoning that this has happened for any other reason that a racist scumbag who hates muslims decided to commit an act of terror is frankly insulting. Oh, and I call bullgak on your claim that there are more incidents of rape, there are however according to for instance BRÅ more people who report that they have been raped. I haven't seen any serious sources saying that we have more incidents of rape per capita now than we had let say 50 years ago.
The percentage of votes parties with anti-immigration points get is not really a good measurement for anti-immigrant sentiments among the general population though. Choice of political parties is determined by much more than immigration points. It is perfectly possible that a person with strong anti-immigration sentiments votes for a pro-immigration socialist party because he agrees with their economical or some other points. So when an anti-immigration party gets 12% of votes, the actual percentage of anti-immigration people is likely to be much, much higher than that.
jorny wrote: Most probably some neo-nazi types or some other racists who have bought in to the stupid Breivik-style bullgak about islamisation. Hope the police catch the perpatrators soon.
We have had a worrying development here the last couple of years with the right wing populists having a bit of a break through in the last two elections, getting 12% in the last. The last time we had a surge of right wing populism (in the 90's) we also got more racist attacks and neo-nazi activity. If we are to believe the Swedish Security Service and EXPO (anti-racist magazine founded by the guy who wrote The Girl With The Dragon Tatoo, similar to Searchlight in the UK) we are seeing a somewhat similar development this time.
Why is right-wing populist parties being succesful worrying development? There is nothing wrong with right-wing populism an sich.
The (unproven) fact that it encourages nazis and racists does not change that. The rightist populists are not at fault for that, most of them are just as anti-nazi as any leftist. It is the responsibility of society as a whole to watch for nazism. If the political climate encourages them and makes them stick out their heads more, it should only give the people a better chance at smashing the fascist scum.
I find the comparison betwen neo-nazis and the swedish democrats a litlte strange, considerign that their main goal is to reduce the immigration by 50%, which considering the massive immigration rates that sweden has now is only sensible. This is because at the current rates sweden simply cannot integrate all these people, which causes damage both to the immigrants and to sweden. This can be seen for example in the fact, that sweden is facing a severe lack of appartements at the moment.
However, it of course is very horrible that a building was burned, and I also hope that the people that this will be jailed, as there seems to be no justification for this.
The Swedish housing shortage is a huge issue that has almost nothing to do with immigration and a lot more to do with things like too little competition in the building sector, regulations around interest rates, a slow planning process with too many appeals and that the law about public housing companies was changed so that they have to operate like for profit companies.
Sweden doesn't have a massive immigration rate. We had about 116 000 people moving to Sweden in 2013. 50 000 (many of those former immigrants to Sweden) moved from Sweden. 19 000 of those moving to Sweden had work permits meaning that they were researchers to the universities and skilled labor and specialists hired by companies. 8000 were students. 20 000 were EU citizens with the largest group probably coming from the nordic countries. That leaves around 19 000 refugees and such to a country of 9 million, meaning that if spread out evenly, each of the 290 municipalities would get 65 immigrants each.
I do think that is a high immigration rate.
65 immigrants per municipality in a single year does sound awfully high. It would not matter so much in a big city, but it would have a huge impact on small communities. Of course, most immigrants go to cities, so there will be not 65 immigrants there, but thousands. Here in the Netherlands (Sweden is probably much the same), in some large cities there are neighbourhouds composed entirely of immigrants. Those places do not feel Dutch anymore, they feel foreign like parts of the Middle-East or Africa. Dutch people do not feel at home in those places anymore, within their own country. Immigrants, especially if they are not well-integrated, are also very visible on the streets because they stand out. So it is not really about the actual number of immigrants, that is rather irrelevant in the discussion to most people. It is more about the visibility of those immigrants, about what people percieve the number of immigrants to be.
The main point about people not feeling at home in their own country is this. If people don't feel at home in their own country where can they go? Nowhere.
When immigration begins to put the indigenous population into the minority, or projects to do so down the line, then it is excessive. Nobody denies that the world has had immigration before, but never has it been facilitated so easily and at such speed.
There's a reason different cultures developed over distance, where we are too close we either homogenise or find points of contention and clash.
Medium of Death wrote: The main point about people not feeling at home in their own country is this. If people don't feel at home in their own country where can they go? Nowhere.
When immigration begins to put the indigenous population into the minority, or projects to do so down the line, then it is excessive. Nobody denies that the world has had immigration before, but never has it been facilitated so easily and at such speed.
There's a reason different cultures developed over distance, where we are too close we either homogenise or find points of contention and clash.
That's the thing about immigration. When you move to another country and start a life there, it becomes a bit of yours too. You realize that a lot of immigrants can't just go back to their own country, right? And the idea that someone who doesn't feel at home in their own country can't go anywhere else is just wrong. Where do you think all the immigrants came from? A lot of them were people who didn't feel at home in their own countries.
Yes Hordini, the quality of life is better here but there has to be a limit otherwise the quality of life will not be better for everyone.
Is that selfish? Inherently so.
What moral responsibility does Europe have to take in these immigrants? None. A Nation needs to look after its own people and preserve its own culture first.
Immigrants serve an economic purpose. To fill gaps in the workforce. The West is not an international charity. Why expect us to look after the world when Colonialism was thoroughly rejected.
Developing countries are held down by their corrupt or inept governments. They could improve their peoples living conditions.
Spinner wrote: How dare people look different in public.
You do know culture and race are entirely different concepts?
Medium of Death wrote: Yes Hordini, the quality of life is better here but there has to be a limit otherwise the quality of life will not be better for everyone.
Is that selfish? Inherently so.
What moral responsibility does Europe have to take in these immigrants? None. A Nation needs to look after its own people and preserve its own culture first.
Immigrants serve an economic purpose. To fill gaps in the workforce. The West is not an international charity. Why expect us to look after the world when Colonialism was thoroughly rejected.
Developing countries are held down by their corrupt or inept governments. They could improve their peoples living conditions.
That's why you have immigration laws and visas. And I have no problem with a nation looking after its own people. That said, (and I don't mean this to sound too accusatory and it isn't directed at you specifically) but when I start to hear things about a nation "preserving its own culture," it starts to sound like xenophobia. How is an immigrant a threat to your culture? Are they going to take it away from you? Will their presence impede you from participating in your own culture?
How do you suggest a culture be "preserved" anyway? Culture isn't some solidified construct, it is fluid and constantly changing. Culture is not going to wait on any of us to catch up either, and that's not going to change no matter what immigration policy a country decides on.
While I of course do never condone the burning of buildings and attacking of ones fellow man, I do not want to live in an Islamic society (since the whole law of stoning people for practising homosexuality they have...I like not dying and I like my western insanity athiest-existance thank you very much).
And to answer a question asked in this thread, it could very much impede my lifestyle.
I am weary of any religion that wants to do those things, Christianity before, Islam now...
Rainbow Dash wrote: While I of course do never condone the burning of buildings and attacking of ones fellow man, I do not want to live in an Islamic society (since the whole law of stoning people for practising homosexuality they have...I like not dying and I like my western insanity athiest-existance thank you very much).
And to answer a question asked in this thread, it could very much impede my lifestyle.
I am weary of any religion that wants to do those things, Christianity before, Islam now...
Luckily for you, all you have to do to prevent that is...do nothing. Just don't move to an Islamic country.
Rainbow Dash wrote: While I of course do never condone the burning of buildings and attacking of ones fellow man, I do not want to live in an Islamic society (since the whole law of stoning people for practising homosexuality they have...I like not dying and I like my western insanity athiest-existance thank you very much).
And to answer a question asked in this thread, it could very much impede my lifestyle.
I am weary of any religion that wants to do those things, Christianity before, Islam now...
Luckily for you, all you have to do to prevent that is...do nothing. Just don't move to an Islamic country.
And resist magical powers of transportation but...well I've got Magic Resistance 3 so I feel pretty safe!
A good book to read is : INfidels : by andrew wheatcroft, which expands on the areas on conflict between islam and christianity throughout history and end up at bascally : "both are stigmatised, both are biased" it is a good read. I recommend it to any thinking on islam atm.kinda kills the whole ""Islam by the sword theory"
A set of propaganda about islam.that they rampaged across the world spreding their religion by the sword blade e.g. join or die.
"that they spread islam by the sword" when in fact after they conquered countries- after the initial massacre- which i think we can agree was universal.(there is some variation here)basically said "do what you want but -pay more tax" Islamic states quite often had more liberal stances to non islamic groups than christian countries to non christian groups.
case in point spain 11-16 century.
Bullockist wrote: A set of propaganda about islam.that they rampaged across the world spreding their religion by the sword blade e.g. join or die.
"that they spread islam by the sword" when in fact after they conquered islamics(there is some variation here)basically said "do what you want but -pay more tax" Islamic states quite often had more liberal stances to non islamic groups than christian countries to non christian groups.
case in point spain 11-16 century.
Oh, alright. I already had read a bit about medieval Islam so I knew that wasn't true in all regions anyway. That would explain why I'm unfamiliar with it.
Seeing as Sweden is in Europe and the UK is in Europe I felt it easier to frame it that way. Seeing as the EU encourages free movement it also makes sense to frame it this way. Large swathes of Europe also share a fairly extensive history steeped in Christianity, there are pretty clear cultural similarities.
By all means feel free to bring in American examples.
I am not the sole representative that the EU and British migration policy has largely failed.
I'm sure Orlanth will be able to debate this much better than I can.
I'm not sure why this says UKIP as Douglas Murray isn't a member. This will give you the insight into the UK situation.
Medium of Death wrote: Seeing as Sweden is in Europe and the UK is in Europe I felt it easier to frame it that way. Seeing as the EU encourages free movement it also makes sense to frame it this way. Large swathes of Europe also share a fairly extensive history steeped in Christianity, there are pretty clear cultural similarities.
By all means feel free to bring in American examples.
I am not the sole representative that the EU and British migration policy has largely failed.
I'm sure Orlanth will be able to debate this much better than I can.
I'm not sure why this says UKIP as Douglas Murray isn't a member. This will give you the insight into the UK situation.
I had enough of idiot politicians in 1996.
Pauline Hansons one nation filled the role of the UK IP.
Any kind of success by these people is culturally embarrassing.
MoD: You said that the West has no responsibility to the rest of the world because it "rejected" colonialism. Are you implying that colonialism was somehow beneficial for the rest of the world?
Free movement of EU citizens is an essential part of how the EU operates. Putting restrictions on that will damage the entire EU project. The numbers of Non EU immigrants are fairly insigificant compared to movement within the EU.
Medium of Death wrote: Large swathes of Europe also share a fairly extensive history steeped in Christianity, there are pretty clear cultural similarities.
So, you want to keep out non-European and non-Christian influences?
By all means feel free to bring in American examples.
I'm not going to try to convince you, because I think you're immune to that. I will just explain that there is a neighborhood in Chicago called Chinatown, and another called Little Italy; and the city gets on just fine. At least after some conflict.
Medium of Death wrote: This is what happens when you call the public racist for not accepting that immigration in high numbers is OK just because the government said it was ok. It drives people to violence as there is no means of dialogue. By all means keep calling them Nazis if you want this to continue.
Funnily enough Sweden has seen its immigration levels increase rapidly and also its incidents of rape.
Couldn't possibly be connected.
I have never said that SD are nazis only that racists and neo-nazis feel encouraged in a climate of more open anti immigrant sentiment. The fact is that %87 if Swedes have voted for parties that aren't against immigration and immigrants, so I don't know what you mean with "the public". And your reasoning that this has happened for any other reason that a racist scumbag who hates muslims decided to commit an act of terror is frankly insulting. Oh, and I call bullgak on your claim that there are more incidents of rape, there are however according to for instance BRÅ more people who report that they have been raped. I haven't seen any serious sources saying that we have more incidents of rape per capita now than we had let say 50 years ago.
jorny wrote: Most probably some neo-nazi types or some other racists who have bought in to the stupid Breivik-style bullgak about islamisation. Hope the police catch the perpatrators soon.
We have had a worrying development here the last couple of years with the right wing populists having a bit of a break through in the last two elections, getting 12% in the last. The last time we had a surge of right wing populism (in the 90's) we also got more racist attacks and neo-nazi activity. If we are to believe the Swedish Security Service and EXPO (anti-racist magazine founded by the guy who wrote The Girl With The Dragon Tatoo, similar to Searchlight in the UK) we are seeing a somewhat similar development this time.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The attack has been indentified by the police as a hate crime. I just also read that the Swedish Security Service probably will be involved in the investigation, which might mean that the Security Service might consider this as an act of terrorism or a politically motivated crime.
I find the comparison betwen neo-nazis and the swedish democrats a litlte strange, considerign that their main goal is to reduce the immigration by 50%, which considering the massive immigration rates that sweden has now is only sensible. This is because at the current rates sweden simply cannot integrate all these people, which causes damage both to the immigrants and to sweden. This can be seen for example in the fact, that sweden is facing a severe lack of appartements at the moment.
However, it of course is very horrible that a building was burned, and I also hope that the people that this will be jailed, as there seems to be no justification for this.
The Swedish housing shortage is a huge issue that has almost nothing to do with immigration and a lot more to do with things like too little competition in the building sector, regulations around interest rates, a slow planning process with too many appeals and that the law about public housing companies was changed so that they have to operate like for profit companies.
Sweden doesn't have a massive immigration rate. We had about 116 000 people moving to Sweden in 2013. 50 000 (many of those former immigrants to Sweden) moved from Sweden. 19 000 of those moving to Sweden had work permits meaning that they were researchers to the universities and skilled labor and specialists hired by companies. 8000 were students. 20 000 were EU citizens with the largest group probably coming from the nordic countries. That leaves around 19 000 refugees and such to a country of 9 million, meaning that if spread out evenly, each of the 290 municipalities would get 65 immigrants each.
Actualy, I could for that that it is not open anti immigration climate that encourages neo nazis, but failed immigrtion instead. When imigration fails for example by failing to integrate properly, parties against immigration will gain support, this will in itself help create the anti immigration climate, however, the failed immigration will also cause that some people will feel threatened, which will be shown often as support for more extrimist groups. Effects like this can be seen often, for example if the working class is poorly treated then of course those workers will feel threatened and support socialism. Although the feel of being threatened is not always shown as support to extrimist movements, but often for example the people will simply change their party of choise.
Also, considering that immigrants are the biggest growing group in sweden, it makes sence that when thier numbers grow, so does the need for new appartements. Of course this might have also other factors in it, but massive immigration on its own helps to increase the problem further.
Can you show me some statistics that prove that most peole leaving sweden are former refugees? I often hear this statement, but I have never seen this to be proven. Also, we can easily see that there is massive immigration by loking at some examples. We can for example clearly see, that Malmö, which is one of the larger cities in sweden now more immigrants than it has original swedes. This is a clear example of massive immigration, as it shows how the immigration is often hevily concentrated, and considering that malmö has hundrets of thousands of citizens, then it also shows that the rate is cumulative, so while the rate might not appear massive in one year, then in several years the number of immigrants will be massive.
Medium of Death wrote: Seeing as Sweden is in Europe and the UK is in Europe I felt it easier to frame it that way. Seeing as the EU encourages free movement it also makes sense to frame it this way. Large swathes of Europe also share a fairly extensive history steeped in Christianity, there are pretty clear cultural similarities.
By all means feel free to bring in American examples.
I am not the sole representative that the EU and British migration policy has largely failed.
I'm sure Orlanth will be able to debate this much better than I can.
I'm not sure why this says UKIP as Douglas Murray isn't a member. This will give you the insight into the UK situation.
I had enough of idiot politicians in 1996.
Pauline Hansons one nation filled the role of the UK IP.
Any kind of success by these people is culturally embarrassing.
immigrants don't steal jobs, lazy brits do.
What do you mean by stealing jobs. It is practicly impossible to do so, so it cannot happen. However, what heavy immigration causes is more supply in the work force. This can be both a good thing, and a bad thing. For example when the country has a lack of workers meaning that the demand for workers is high, then work based immigration will be helpful. Sweden was in this situation in the 70's, which explains why they have many positive ideas about immigration. However, when you have small demand for workers, then increasing the supply of workers will not help. What it does is, that because there is large supply but small demand then the wages of workers will decrease, but unemployment will increase. This works as a explanation to why many working class people will consider immigration bad when there is already too much work force, as it makes finding work harder for them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Da Boss wrote: MoD: You said that the West has no responsibility to the rest of the world because it "rejected" colonialism. Are you implying that colonialism was somehow beneficial for the rest of the world?
Free movement of EU citizens is an essential part of how the EU operates. Putting restrictions on that will damage the entire EU project. The numbers of Non EU immigrants are fairly insigificant compared to movement within the EU.
Da Boss wrote: MoD: You said that the West has no responsibility to the rest of the world because it "rejected" colonialism. Are you implying that colonialism was somehow beneficial for the rest of the world?
Free movement of EU citizens is an essential part of how the EU operates. Putting restrictions on that will damage the entire EU project. The numbers of Non EU immigrants are fairly insignificant compared to movement within the EU.
My point being is that there is no benefit or obligation to be tied to these countries any more.
Free movement in the EU is great if you're a skilled and educated person like yourself. It doesn't work for the unskilled worker as employers can get cheaper labour from Europe. Unlike Bullockist's easy mode excuse of confining the unskilled population to lazy, when in fact a great number of unskilled jobs are often over subscribed for applications and a great many aren't even advertised in this country. Also even if the indigenous population is unwilling to work it is the duty of government to facilitate these people into the workplace because otherwise they become an unshiftable burden on the state and society. It is precisely this attitude that angers me, why are we not addressing this problem? The ones that gain citizenship become an extra burden. In the report he sites they've cost the country 95 Billion more than they've put in through taxes. I do recommend watching the video for some figure breakdown.Is it not unreasonable to expect some kind of proper immigration controls across nations? Skilled workers could easily get permits. It might be great for you just to be able to flit wherever you choose but this is having a real impact on our working class that nobody is addressing. When the working class complain they are called racists and idiots.
Medium of Death wrote: Large swathes of Europe also share a fairly extensive history steeped in Christianity, there are pretty clear cultural similarities.
So, you want to keep out non-European and non-Christian influences?
I want immigration to be managed in a sensible manner, I think the culture of Europe should be respected and the indigenous populations should not have to placate mass immigration. Immigrants have been useful but we've been drowned in them, certainly in Britain, in a period from the late 90's. Britain's immigration problem has greatly increased since then. Ask the people of Calais if they're enjoying the multicultural experiment of people attempting to get to Britain. America and Australia have far tighter immigration controls. It's about preserving the stability of the nation. Segregated communities sounds great! That's never caused problems ever. Why should an indigenous people put up with problems they aren't obliged to? Especially when we have so many of our own to sort out.
Segregated communities sounds great! That's never caused problems ever. Why should an indigenous people put up with problems they aren't obliged to? Especially when we have so many of our own to sort out.
Delicious food, of course. It sounds stupid, but "Wow, this is really good!" has bridged many a gap.
Funnily enough Sweden has seen its immigration levels increase rapidly and also its incidents of rape.
Couldn't possibly be connected.
Correlation does not imply causation. The fact that we've got some of the strictest sexual assault laws in the world probably contributes to higher report rates, unless you want to argue that Sweden has more rapes per capita than the Democratic Republic of Congo.
Hordini wrote: Luckily for you, all you have to do to prevent that is...do nothing. Just don't move to an Islamic country.
The problem is that Islam is quite happy to move to your country and assert that their spirutual beliefs and laws are more important than your local ones.
Non believers are infidels, Christians and Jews are lower than dogs, and they don't like dogs, or bacon.
Funnily enough Sweden has seen its immigration levels increase rapidly and also its incidents of rape.
Couldn't possibly be connected.
Correlation does not imply causation. The fact that we've got some of the strictest sexual assault laws in the world probably contributes to higher report rates, unless you want to argue that Sweden has more rapes per capita than the Democratic Republic of Congo.
How long have those laws been in place? That could maybe serve to give some data points. More importantly, what ethnic groups do convicted offenders belong to in what percentages?
I meant Cultures* that's why I went on to say indigenous populations.
That isn't any better.
Yes, various countries of Europe have their own cultures. This shouldn't be news.
Unless you're saying the French and British are identical...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Da Boss wrote: MoD: You said that the West has no responsibility to the rest of the world because it "rejected" colonialism. Are you implying that colonialism was somehow beneficial for the rest of the world?
Free movement of EU citizens is an essential part of how the EU operates. Putting restrictions on that will damage the entire EU project. The numbers of Non EU immigrants are fairly insigificant compared to movement within the EU.
Well... I think that could be a debate worth having. The Middle East was hardly the cluster feth that it is today when the Brits ran the show.
Medium of Death wrote: Large swathes of Europe also share a fairly extensive history steeped in Christianity, there are pretty clear cultural similarities.
So, you want to keep out non-European and non-Christian influences?
Personally, it's less about keeping "them" out, and "us" in, as it is... "you're welcome here, just don't expect us to bend over backward to your old ways"
Case in point... page 1 of the thread, the town in Austria that lost a 60 year old "land mark" because some immigrant took serious issue to it? Or here in the US, various (admittedly tiny) groups calling for political reform in the form of us adopting Sharia law, or Sharia-like policies?
Well... I think that could be a debate worth having. The Middle East was hardly the cluster feth that it is today when the Brits ran the show.
True... but it became a serious clusterfeth when Britain said "Draw a line on the 112nd degree of longitude, and another couple there, and one on that river there, AAAaaaaaand we have a country now!! Who wants some tea?"
Medium of Death wrote: Large swathes of Europe also share a fairly extensive history steeped in Christianity, there are pretty clear cultural similarities.
So, you want to keep out non-European and non-Christian influences?
Personally, it's less about keeping "them" out, and "us" in, as it is... "you're welcome here, just don't expect us to bend over backward to your old ways"
Case in point... page 1 of the thread, the town in Austria that lost a 60 year old "land mark" because some immigrant took serious issue to it? Or here in the US, various (admittedly tiny) groups calling for political reform in the form of us adopting Sharia law, or Sharia-like policies?
Democracy grants them the right to express their opinion and petition for change, just as it gives people the right to vote no to those proposals. To suggest that they shouldn't be allowed to ask for and campaign for what they believe in is, at its very core, against the democratic process.
Democracy grants them the right to express their opinion and petition for change, just as it gives people the right to vote no to those proposals. To suggest that they shouldn't be allowed to ask for and campaign for what they believe in is, at its very core, against the democratic process.
I think we can all agree though, that there's a HUGE difference between petitioning for social justice (ie, I'm gay, and I feel I have rights) vs, "Your country isn't enough like my old country, change it!"
Democracy grants them the right to express their opinion and petition for change, just as it gives people the right to vote no to those proposals. To suggest that they shouldn't be allowed to ask for and campaign for what they believe in is, at its very core, against the democratic process.
I think we can all agree though, that there's a HUGE difference between petitioning for social justice (ie, I'm gay, and I feel I have rights) vs, "Your country isn't enough like my old country, change it!"
Doesn't matter. I mean, the Tories and UKIP petition for the latter here all the time, where their "old country" is some rose-tinted imaginings of what England used to be like in the 50s and even earlier.
Democracy grants them the right to express their opinion and petition for change, just as it gives people the right to vote no to those proposals. To suggest that they shouldn't be allowed to ask for and campaign for what they believe in is, at its very core, against the democratic process.
I think we can all agree though, that there's a HUGE difference between petitioning for social justice (ie, I'm gay, and I feel I have rights) vs, "Your country isn't enough like my old country, change it!"
Doesn't matter. I mean, the Tories and UKIP petition for the latter here all the time, where their "old country" is some rose-tinted imaginings of what England used to be like in the 50s and even earlier.
I get that, and I think it's just as stupid when various groups in the US do similar... the whole "America was founded on Christian principles, and is a Christian nation, you NEED to make gay marriage illegal because God said so!" type thing is EXACTLY what I'm talking about....
If Sweden, the UK or anyone were making laws stating that people MUST consume pork on Friday, various religious groups would have legitimate beef with the government and shoudl petition for the change. Wanting a thief's hand cut off because that's how it was done in the "old country" isn't. IMO.
If Sweden, the UK or anyone were making laws stating that people MUST consume pork on Friday, various religious groups would have legitimate beef with the government and shoudl petition for the change.
If Sweden, the UK or anyone were making laws stating that people MUST consume pork on Friday, various religious groups would have legitimate beef with the government and shoudl petition for the change.
adamsouza wrote: Since arsonists are people who set fires, any fire that it not accidental is set by an arsonist, making the thread title seem redundant.
Your definition is a little broad. Arsonists are people who commit arson. People can set fires legally and not be arsonists.
adamsouza wrote: Since arsonists are people who set fires, any fire that it not accidental is set by an arsonist, making the thread title seem redundant.
Your definition is a little broad. Arsonists are people who commit arson. People can set fires legally and not be arsonists.
Jebus...Roy Mustang took on a whole new perspective for me now
Hordini wrote: Luckily for you, all you have to do to prevent that is...do nothing. Just don't move to an Islamic country.
The problem is that Islam is quite happy to move to your country and assert that their spirutual beliefs and laws are more important than your local ones.
Non believers are infidels, Christians and Jews are lower than dogs, and they don't like dogs, or bacon.
How can you trust anyone who doesn't like bacon ?
Yeah, and best of luck to them with that. They can assert their beliefs and laws as much as they want, that isn't going to ever give them any legal standing, especially not in the US. All the crap about Muslims trying to bring Sharia law to the US is conspiracy theory fear tactics. I'm not saying there isn't a handful of extremists who want that (obviously there are extremists like ISIS who want Sharia law everywhere) but in the US Sharia has absolutely zero legal legitimacy and the tiny, tiny minority who would want it are never going to have the power or ability to put it in place against a non-Muslim majority. In addition to the fact that the majority of Arabs who live in the US aren't Muslims, and came to the US to escape that kind of thing pretty much ensures that unless a group like ISIS takes over the entire country by force (something that will never happen), we don't have to worry about someone trying to enforce Sharia law on US citizens at home.
Also, most Jews don't eat pork either, brah, so I'd be careful about the "how can you trust anyone who doesn't like bacon" jokes.
adamsouza wrote: Since arsonists are people who set fires, any fire that it not accidental is set by an arsonist, making the thread title seem redundant.
If someone dropped a candle and thus set a house on fire, he isn't an arsonist by its very definition. A toddler that'd do the same isn't either.
Funnily enough Sweden has seen its immigration levels increase rapidly and also its incidents of rape.
Couldn't possibly be connected.
Correlation does not imply causation. The fact that we've got some of the strictest sexual assault laws in the world probably contributes to higher report rates, unless you want to argue that Sweden has more rapes per capita than the Democratic Republic of Congo.
How long have those laws been in place? That could maybe serve to give some data points. More importantly, what ethnic groups do convicted offenders belong to in what percentages?
Following a change in the law in 2004, the reported number of rapes increased by 33% in one year (source is in Swedish). I don't think it's reasonable to explain that as immigrants being evil.
Not being a lawyer I don't know the answer to this, but the article seems to say that they are simply providing guidelines for writing wills up in that fashion. It says things like "it advises" or "it suggests", rather than "this changes the law so that it is Sharia. The article even goes so far as to say
Currently, Sharia principles are not formally addressed by or included in Britain’s laws
But not being a lawyer (British or otherwise), the 'advises' and 'suggests' could be just as good as 'orders', but I'd assume not, since (according to wiki, bless it) the The Law Society only concerns certain lawyers, and primarily provides services and support to practising and training solicitors as well as serving as a sounding board for law reform. It doesn't decide the reform, it's just a society that stuff gets bounced off of.
So, going off that, I don't think that its accurate that this is evidence of Sharia law becoming enshrined in a nation's existing laws.
motyak wrote: Not being a lawyer I don't know the answer to this, but the article seems to say that they are simply providing guidelines for writing wills up in that fashion. It says things like "it advises" or "it suggests", rather than "this changes the law so that it is Sharia. The article even goes so far as to say
Currently, Sharia principles are not formally addressed by or included in Britain’s laws
But not being a lawyer (British or otherwise), the 'advises' and 'suggests' could be just as good as 'orders', but I'd assume not, since (according to wiki, bless it) the The Law Society only concerns certain lawyers, and primarily provides services and support to practising and training solicitors as well as serving as a sounding board for law reform. It doesn't decide the reform, it's just a society that stuff gets bounced off of.
So, going off that, I don't think that its accurate that this is evidence of Sharia law becoming enshrined in a nation's existing laws.
Note however that the article states: "Baroness Cox, a cross-bench peer leading a Parliamentary campaign to protect women from religiously sanctioned discrimination, including from unofficial Sharia courts in Britain, said it was a “deeply disturbing” development and pledged to raise it with ministers."
From that quote we can see how there are unoffical sharia courts.
There have been aspects of Jewish law operating in the UK for decades. They essentially have to operate within the context of contract law and the existing law. The sharia law idea is the same thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Let's be clear, though, unofficial courts are not official.
The Law Society threw that Sharia nonsense out and apologised a few months after that news broke.
Swedish politics is pathetic. Absolutely no democratic process being carried out by the new union of parties, diametrically opposed, to shut out SD that people did vote for.
This is what career politicians look like. They don't give a feth, they just want to keep their jobs.
I really don't see much of an issue. Sharia law is not law. Period. If you live in a country, this country's laws are absolutely binding. Any Sharia "law" is about as much as a law as everyone having to wear pink panties every Saturday.
Medium of Death wrote: The Law Society threw that Sharia nonsense out and apologised a few months after that news broke.
Swedish politics is pathetic. Absolutely no democratic process being carried out by the new union of parties, diametrically opposed, to shut out SD that people did vote for.
This is what career politicians look like. They don't give a feth, they just want to keep their jobs.
I don't see how you expect official courts to moderate unofficial courts unless they operate outside the national law.
For instance, if you agree to an arbitration process under sharia law -- an unofficial court, if you will -- you are bound by the result unless it violates some aspect of the national law.
Kilkrazy wrote: For instance, if you agree to an arbitration process under sharia law -- an unofficial court, if you will -- you are bound by the result unless it violates some aspect of the national law.
And this is very, very bad. It allows communities to pressure vulnerable individuals into submission. This should not be tolerated.
Kilkrazy wrote: I don't see how you expect official courts to moderate unofficial courts unless they operate outside the national law.
For instance, if you agree to an arbitration process under sharia law -- an unofficial court, if you will -- you are bound by the result unless it violates some aspect of the national law.
Medium of Death wrote: I feel unconformable with the idea of any subset of "Laws" governing peoples lives outside of the official Law. It's open to abuse.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Yeah, what a disgrace, striking deals so that the country continues to function! Boo! Hiss!
If your completely happy with the way it functions then that's fine. If you want any kind of change then not so much.
Enjoy your boundless immigration, violent crime & rising rape statistics in your brave new democracy.
Source on the increasing rapes thingie that isn't easily explainable by increased reporting? Or are you just poking to bash immigration?
Honestly, it's a deal between the only two realistic government candidates to make sure that a minority government (which is more of a rule than an exception in Sweden) can function without letting the far right dictate the terms. You can call it dictatorial or undemocratic all you want, that doesn't make it so.
Medium of Death wrote: I feel unconformable with the idea of any subset of "Laws" governing peoples lives outside of the official Law. It's open to abuse.
...
.
You are opposed then to the Football Association, the Magic Circle, and other such organisations that sit in judgement and may levy penalties on their members.
For instance, if you agree to an arbitration process under sharia law -- an unofficial court, if you will -- you are bound by the result unless it violates some aspect of the national law.
You are "bound" to this as in "Yeah, I'm with it.". A Sharia "verdict" has as much bearing as the promise of a 4 year old to not steal candies again. You cannot decide to "leave" a nation's law, but you can always leave a club or any other institution. If any club, religion or anything passes a "verdict" that opposes national law or human rights etc. then it is illegal and must be persecuted by the law with full force.
Medium of Death wrote: I feel unconformable with the idea of any subset of "Laws" governing peoples lives outside of the official Law. It's open to abuse.
...
.
You are opposed then to the Football Association, the Magic Circle, and other such organisations that sit in judgement and may levy penalties on their members.
That's a bit of a disingenuous example is it not? People join these organisation through payment surely?
How is a Religion the same as these things in the Law? When the FA or Magical circle becomes a religion that lays down moral codes to adhere to in every element of life you might have a point.
If two people agree to arbitration according to Jedi Code then they can arbitrate by Jedi Code, that doesn't mean that the country follows Jedi law.
...and on top of that, if one dude somehow decides to stop playing Jedi, the other one has nothing in his hands to exercise force upon the sith former playmate.
Medium of Death wrote: I feel unconformable with the idea of any subset of "Laws" governing peoples lives outside of the official Law. It's open to abuse.
...
.
You are opposed then to the Football Association, the Magic Circle, and other such organisations that sit in judgement and may levy penalties on their members.
That's a bit of a disingenuous example is it not? People join these organisation through payment surely?
How is a Religion the same as these things in the Law? When the FA or Magical circle becomes a religion that lays down moral codes to adhere to in every element of life you might have a point.
Not at all disingenuous. People voluntarily agree to abide by some unofficial "legal" process. If the verdict goes against them and they refuse to comply, the national law can then be used to compel them, usually through contract law in the UK, or by arbitration tribunal processes.
This is how the Jewish law has been implemented in the UK for decades. It is the way too that various civil disputes such as divorce and small claims actions can be decided out of court, but enforced by the court.
People join and pay money to religions as well as football clubs. Though actually in the case of a football club, the player is paid, so your objection is not sustainable on those grounds.
Exactly. It's the difference between forcing someone to abide by Sharia Law and two people voluntarily agreeing to reach a decision that follows Sharia Law and having that agreement encoded via non-Sharia laws.
Kilkrazy wrote: This is how the Jewish law has been implemented in the UK for decades. It is the way too that various civil disputes such as divorce and small claims actions can be decided out of court, but enforced by the court.
It is terrible and it should be changed.
d-usa wrote: Exactly. It's the difference between forcing someone to abide by Sharia Law and two people voluntarily agreeing to reach a decision that follows Sharia Law and having that agreement encoded via non-Sharia laws.
Except in practice all it does is force vulnerable people to abide by sharia law or face the hostility of their whole community. Not just their husband/wife (husband generally, Sharia court rarely benefit women over men) but their whole family, and often many of their friend. Awesome, is it not?
Please explain to me how the differing countries that comprise Europe do not have different cultures?
I never said otherwise, but you did:
...I think the culture of Europe should be respected...
What is the "...culture of Europe..."?
You know Dogma, your stupid little word games get really old. Everyone here knows what he meant. So what if he forgot to put an S at the end of culture. I don't know what makes you want to do stuff like this all the time, but it detracts from the overall conversation, and does nothing to contribute. All you succeed in doing is annoying other people.
This is an internet forum. We are conveying thoughts through typing. The occasional typo will occur. This isn't some lecture hall in Yale where the great academics of society will debate each other. There is no need to treat it as such.
So what if he forgot to put an S at the end of culture. I don't know what makes you want to do stuff like this all the time, but it detracts from the overall conversation, and does nothing to contribute. All you succeed in doing is annoying other people.
Hordini wrote: They can assert their beliefs and laws as much as they want, that isn't going to ever give them any legal standing, especially not in the US. All the crap about Muslims trying to bring Sharia law to the US is conspiracy theory fear tactics.
The "Religion of Truth" (Islam) must prevail, by force if necessary, over all other religions. 9:33
They assert that they have freedom of religion in the US. Then when what they want to do conflicts with anything they claim descrimination and persecution.
Allah says that you must keep fighting until there is no more persecution and everyone on earth is a Muslim. Then you can stop killing people. 2:193a
Do not obey disbelievers. 3:149
Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim. 3:73
Sam Harris wrote:I invite [those] who haven't read the Quran to simple read the book. Take out a highlighter and highlight those lines that counsel the believer to despise infidels, and you will find a book that is just covered with highlighter.--
Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers. 2:98
Allah has revealed "clear tokens." Only evil people are disbelievers. 2:99
The Jews and Christians know damn well that the Muslims are right, so they try to make Muslims disbelievers because they envy the truth that they know the Muslims have. 2:109
Disbelievers are losers. 2:121
Those who disbelieve in the Quran, for whatever reason, are cursed by Allah, the angels, and men combined. So every good Muslim must join Allah and the angels in cursing nonbelievers. 2:161
"Those who disbelieve [are] Deaf, dumb, blind, therefore they have no sense." 2:171
Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2
War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216
It's you and your religion against them and theirs. They won't stop fighting until they make you a "renegade from your religion" and if they succeed in that so you die in disbelief, Allah will burn you forever in the Fire. 2:217
"The disbelievers, they are the wrong-doers." 2:254
Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. 3:28
Why does Allah like Muslims so much? Because they are the best people on earth, they behave themselves, forbid indecency, and believe in Allah. Allah loves people who believe in him. (Most Non-muslims are "evil-livers.") 3:110
Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you. 3:118
The disbelievers are an open enemy to you. 4:101
Do not choose disbelievers as friends. 4:144
Those who make war with Allah and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom. 5:33
Non-muslims are wrong doers. 5:45
Most unbelievers are ignorant. 6:111
Disbelief is the greatest evil. 7:37
Disbelievers are liars. 7:66
Those who deny Muhammad's revelations are like dogs. 7:176
Those who deny Muhammad's revelation are evil. 7:177
When you fight with disbelievers, do not retreat. Those who do will go to hell. 8:15-16
Fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. 8:39
Exhort the believers to fight. They will win easily, because disbelievers are without intelligence. 8:65
Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. 9:5
Those who submit and convert to Islam will be treated well. (Those who don't submit will be killed. See previous verse.) 9:6
Don't make treaties with non-Muslims. They are all evildoers and should not be trusted. 9:7-9
Treat converts to Islam well. (Kill those who refuse to convert. See 9:5) 9:11
And evidently the Islam and Nazis share a similar view of Jews
Spoiler:
Allah has cursed the Jews and hardened their hearts. Nearly all of them are treacherous. 5:12-13
Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them. 5:51
Jews and Christians are losers. 5:53
Don't choose Jews, Christians, or disbelievers as guardians. 5:57
Jews and Christians are evil-livers. 5:59
Evil is the handiwork of the rabbis and priests. 5:63
Allah has cast enmity and hatred among the Jews. 5:64
The Jews rejected and killed Allah's prophets, since "they were wilfully blind and deaf." 5:70-71
"Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe to be the Jews." 5:82
Allah turns Jews into apes! 7:166
Fight against Christians and Jews "until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low." 9:29
Christians and Jews are perverse. Allah himself fights against them. 9:30
Allah turned Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes to be despised and hated. All modern Jews are descendants of apes (or all modern apes are descendants of Sabbath-breaking Jews). 2:65-66
Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But even that "would by no means remove the doom." 2:96
To begin with, the bible holds some pretty stupid stuff as well if you take it literally.
Secondly, freedom of religion does not mean that you are free to do anything because your religion tells you to. It means that you can hold and exercise your religion freely as long as you follow actual law.
So, for example, the "Don't obey disbelievers" part is 100% meaningless. You either have to ignore this part if you're a muslim or you have to move to an islamic country.
Sigvatr wrote: To begin with, the bible holds some pretty stupid stuff as well if you take it literally.
I agree. Unfortunately that doesn't stop devout, but stupid, people.
Also, most of the crazy stuff in the Bible is old testament, and not part of the covenant of the new testament, which is what modern Christians are suppossed to be following, or at least that is what I've been told when I point out crazy stuff from the old testament.
Evidently the teachings of Jesus are a lot more warm and fuzzy than the old school teachings
Secondly, freedom of religion does not mean that you are free to do anything because your religion tells you to. It means that you can hold and exercise your religion freely as long as you follow actual law.
And their counter argument is that the laws of man are not as important as divine law.
The US still has arguments and legal battles about Gay Marriage, Abortion, and Birth Control becuase of religious objections to things that are, or should be, legal otherwise.
So, for example, the "Don't obey disbelievers" part is 100% meaningless. You either have to ignore this part if you're a muslim or you have to move to an islamic country.
It's only meaningless to you. To the Devout, it's a divine commandment.
Also, Islam wants to convert your country to an islamic country.
Unless you are creating a mordernized interpretation of the Quran, which is actually listed specifically as a sin in the Quran, it's Muslims against everyone else, everyone else is wrong and evil, and it's your duty to wage war against them until you kill them or they convert.
Do I think that is a logical, or feasable belief system ? No.
Is that what impoverished people who live in a war torn country are being taught what it means to be devout muslims ? Yes
I know a lot of people who have immigrated here who have been able to do incredible things, and have managed things genuinely worthy of my respect. We have had a lot of people arrive here that have been truly amazing people. I like that they have come here.
I am not in favor of people who have come here and provided a net drain on everyone else who is already here. We have enough of those people.
And their counter argument is that the laws of man are not as important as divine law.
That's a full stop for me. That's not a counter-argument. What they say is worth nothing, literally, nothing. The law is above all. What they want is irrelevant. You break the law because your religions says otherwise? You broke the law. You get punished for it. That's how any reasonable state is to react to any issue. Law and human rights are above anything.
Just to make sure: I don't want to disrespect you by shortening your well thought-out post to this quote, I just think that it portrays my point pretty well.
If a, for example, a muslim decides to beat or kill a Christian because any "Sharia happening" decided to such a verdict, then first of all, let him take his koran into jail and then get the Sharia guys into jail as well for inciting a crime. That's how the law MUST work. Justice is blind.
And their counter argument is that the laws of man are not as important as divine law.
That's a full stop for me. That's not a counter-argument. What they say is worth nothing, literally, nothing. The law is above all. What they want is irrelevant. You break the law because your religions says otherwise? You broke the law. You get punished for it. That's how any reasonable state is to react to any issue. Law and human rights are above anything.
Just to make sure: I don't want to disrespect you by shortening your well thought-out post to this quote, I just think that it portrays my point pretty well.
If a, for example, muslim decides to beat or kill a Christian because any "Sharia happening" decided to such a verdict, then first of all, let him take his koran into jail and then get the Sharia guys into jail as well for inciting a crime. That's how the law MUST work. Justice is blind.
No offense taken.
Let me assure you, that I agree with your line of thinking.
Skullhammer wrote: Or you follow taqiure (spl) which lets you lie to any non muslim to advance globel islam.
Not quite sure why a town in Slovenia has a particular brand of islam that is advanced by lies of its followers to non-muslims...
Maybe they were attracted by the village's traditional wood crafts? Or maybe they want to turn the neoclassical church from 1908 into a mosque?
But as funny as spelling errors are, I think we all know what the guy meant. Islam, much more so than any other religion is extremely violent towards non-believers. Traditional Islam is not compatible with European culture as it is fundamentally opposed to the ideals of Enlightenment. There are muslims that manage to integrate in European society very well and who are able to adapt their version of Islam to be compatible with European values, but many others do not succeed in this and cause a lot of problems.
MoD: I think EU migrants are a mixed bag. Your worries about lower wage workers are well founded, but I don't think closing down immigration is the solution.
There are a lot of reasons why unskilled work is difficult to find in the UK, immigration is only a fairly small part of the puzzle.
I also don't particularly like the implication that the UK is suffering worse than other places from immigration - Germany gets a huge number of immigrants.
And to be honest, coming from somewhere afflicted with chronic emigration (our population still hasn't reached the levels it had in the 1800s due to the constant bleeding of our young people for over a century) I find people whining about their country being so great that other people want to live there to be fairly tiresome. That's probably a fairly obnoxious point of view though.
By EU migrants do you mean EU citizens moving to other EU countries?
The UK had about 240,000 net inward migration in the last official figures. That is under 0.4% of the population. About 10% of these inward migrants were refugees. The rest were all "legal".
And their counter argument is that the laws of man are not as important as divine law.
That's a full stop for me. That's not a counter-argument. What they say is worth nothing, literally, nothing. The law is above all. What they want is irrelevant. You break the law because your religions says otherwise? You broke the law. You get punished for it. That's how any reasonable state is to react to any issue. Law and human rights are above anything.
Just to make sure: I don't want to disrespect you by shortening your well thought-out post to this quote, I just think that it portrays my point pretty well.
If a, for example, a muslim decides to beat or kill a Christian because any "Sharia happening" decided to such a verdict, then first of all, let him take his koran into jail and then get the Sharia guys into jail as well for inciting a crime. That's how the law MUST work. Justice is blind.
I agree with you there, but it's not just Islam that has lines of thinking that says, "God's laws are higher than the laws of man"
Growing up in a Christian church this line of thinking was often heard. The usual line though, was that "we should follow the laws of man, until they run contrary to Biblical teachings"
And their counter argument is that the laws of man are not as important as divine law.
That's a full stop for me. That's not a counter-argument. What they say is worth nothing, literally, nothing. The law is above all. What they want is irrelevant. You break the law because your religions says otherwise? You broke the law. You get punished for it. That's how any reasonable state is to react to any issue. Law and human rights are above anything.
Just to make sure: I don't want to disrespect you by shortening your well thought-out post to this quote, I just think that it portrays my point pretty well.
If a, for example, a muslim decides to beat or kill a Christian because any "Sharia happening" decided to such a verdict, then first of all, let him take his koran into jail and then get the Sharia guys into jail as well for inciting a crime. That's how the law MUST work. Justice is blind.
And yes, exactly. It doesn't matter if there are extreme Islamists who want Sharia law to be a thing in the US, it has literally zero force of law, and as long as the US Constitution stays in place with the Bill of Rights intact, always will have zero force of law. If some people want to use it for arbitration between themselves, as long as they don't break the law (like by cutting off someone's hand or doing an honor killing) I don't really care, but they can't legally force anyone to follow it in the US.
Boss I don't mean to sound like Britain has it worse, but by living here it automatically becomes the focus of y points. I don't doubt that other countries have problems. Indeed, Germany has seen large anti-Muslim protests recently. Normal people mixing with skinheads, which I think speaks to the frustration felt by a lot of people about immigration/integration. I've also mentioned Sweden and Calais in France.
I guess my point about the working population is that a lot of them don't have the option to emigrate? I also think that it'd be easier to reduce the numbers of immigrants into the country to try and solve that problem. Like you say, it isn't the be all and end all but it does contribute significantly. It's also something we could get a handle on pretty easily.
I can understand why people would want to come to the country, but you need to draw the line otherwise conditions will get worse for segments of the population. It's not a case of "Britain is too great for these people" it's simply practicality. I think even simple things like a period of time required to be eligible for elements of our social benefits would be an idea. I definitely think access to the NHS should not be applicable to everyone that arrives here.
Back to the the original point of Islam. British prisons are becoming hotbeds of Islamification. It's going unchecked for the same reason that Rotherham went on for so long. This is the underside of our society that people are willing to disregard. Ignore this is going to be a horrible mistake. Imagine taking the worst British violent scum and then giving them an ideology that actively encourages their behaviour. That's pretty worryng to me.
Skullhammer wrote: Or you follow taqiure (spl) which lets you lie to any non muslim to advance globel islam.
Taqiya. But please, stop focusing on this rule that allow Muslims to pretend not to be Muslims to avoid persecution, and which was mainly used by shia muslims to avoid persecution from sunni muslims to instead address the real problems. Please.
Is that just your feeling? Or do you have statistics?
Hordini wrote: If some people want to use it for arbitration between themselves, as long as they don't break the law (like by cutting off someone's hand or doing an honor killing) I don't really care
Is that just your feeling? Or do you have statistics?
No, it's not just my feeling. I don't post facts like that if I'm not sure. Here you go. You'll notice the sources at the bottom of the page support the article. Feel free to explore.
Why do you find it so hard to believe? Does it go against your feelings?
Hordini wrote: If some people want to use it for arbitration between themselves, as long as they don't break the law (like by cutting off someone's hand or doing an honor killing) I don't really care
But you should, really.
Why should I care what two consenting adult parties use to arbitrate disputes between themselves as long as they aren't doing anything illegal? Why is it any of my business, or yours?
Hordini wrote: They can assert their beliefs and laws as much as they want, that isn't going to ever give them any legal standing, especially not in the US. All the crap about Muslims trying to bring Sharia law to the US is conspiracy theory fear tactics.
The "Religion of Truth" (Islam) must prevail, by force if necessary, over all other religions. 9:33
They assert that they have freedom of religion in the US. Then when what they want to do conflicts with anything they claim descrimination and persecution.
Allah says that you must keep fighting until there is no more persecution and everyone on earth is a Muslim. Then you can stop killing people. 2:193a
Do not obey disbelievers. 3:149
Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim. 3:73
Sam Harris wrote:I invite [those] who haven't read the Quran to simple read the book. Take out a highlighter and highlight those lines that counsel the believer to despise infidels, and you will find a book that is just covered with highlighter.--
Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers. 2:98
Allah has revealed "clear tokens." Only evil people are disbelievers. 2:99
The Jews and Christians know damn well that the Muslims are right, so they try to make Muslims disbelievers because they envy the truth that they know the Muslims have. 2:109
Disbelievers are losers. 2:121
Those who disbelieve in the Quran, for whatever reason, are cursed by Allah, the angels, and men combined. So every good Muslim must join Allah and the angels in cursing nonbelievers. 2:161
"Those who disbelieve [are] Deaf, dumb, blind, therefore they have no sense." 2:171
Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2
War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216
It's you and your religion against them and theirs. They won't stop fighting until they make you a "renegade from your religion" and if they succeed in that so you die in disbelief, Allah will burn you forever in the Fire. 2:217
"The disbelievers, they are the wrong-doers." 2:254
Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. 3:28
Why does Allah like Muslims so much? Because they are the best people on earth, they behave themselves, forbid indecency, and believe in Allah. Allah loves people who believe in him. (Most Non-muslims are "evil-livers.") 3:110
Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you. 3:118
The disbelievers are an open enemy to you. 4:101
Do not choose disbelievers as friends. 4:144
Those who make war with Allah and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom. 5:33
Non-muslims are wrong doers. 5:45
Most unbelievers are ignorant. 6:111
Disbelief is the greatest evil. 7:37
Disbelievers are liars. 7:66
Those who deny Muhammad's revelations are like dogs. 7:176
Those who deny Muhammad's revelation are evil. 7:177
When you fight with disbelievers, do not retreat. Those who do will go to hell. 8:15-16
Fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. 8:39
Exhort the believers to fight. They will win easily, because disbelievers are without intelligence. 8:65
Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. 9:5
Those who submit and convert to Islam will be treated well. (Those who don't submit will be killed. See previous verse.) 9:6
Don't make treaties with non-Muslims. They are all evildoers and should not be trusted. 9:7-9
Treat converts to Islam well. (Kill those who refuse to convert. See 9:5) 9:11
And evidently the Islam and Nazis share a similar view of Jews
Spoiler:
Allah has cursed the Jews and hardened their hearts. Nearly all of them are treacherous. 5:12-13
Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them. 5:51
Jews and Christians are losers. 5:53
Don't choose Jews, Christians, or disbelievers as guardians. 5:57
Jews and Christians are evil-livers. 5:59
Evil is the handiwork of the rabbis and priests. 5:63
Allah has cast enmity and hatred among the Jews. 5:64
The Jews rejected and killed Allah's prophets, since "they were wilfully blind and deaf." 5:70-71
"Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe to be the Jews." 5:82
Allah turns Jews into apes! 7:166
Fight against Christians and Jews "until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low." 9:29
Christians and Jews are perverse. Allah himself fights against them. 9:30
Allah turned Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes to be despised and hated. All modern Jews are descendants of apes (or all modern apes are descendants of Sabbath-breaking Jews). 2:65-66
Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But even that "would by no means remove the doom." 2:96
Hordini wrote: They can assert their beliefs and laws as much as they want, that isn't going to ever give them any legal standing, especially not in the US. All the crap about Muslims trying to bring Sharia law to the US is conspiracy theory fear tactics.
The "Religion of Truth" (Islam) must prevail, by force if necessary, over all other religions. 9:33
They assert that they have freedom of religion in the US. Then when what they want to do conflicts with anything they claim descrimination and persecution.
Allah says that you must keep fighting until there is no more persecution and everyone on earth is a Muslim. Then you can stop killing people. 2:193a
Do not obey disbelievers. 3:149
Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim. 3:73
Sam Harris wrote:I invite [those] who haven't read the Quran to simple read the book. Take out a highlighter and highlight those lines that counsel the believer to despise infidels, and you will find a book that is just covered with highlighter.--
Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers. 2:98
Allah has revealed "clear tokens." Only evil people are disbelievers. 2:99
The Jews and Christians know damn well that the Muslims are right, so they try to make Muslims disbelievers because they envy the truth that they know the Muslims have. 2:109
Disbelievers are losers. 2:121
Those who disbelieve in the Quran, for whatever reason, are cursed by Allah, the angels, and men combined. So every good Muslim must join Allah and the angels in cursing nonbelievers. 2:161
"Those who disbelieve [are] Deaf, dumb, blind, therefore they have no sense." 2:171
Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2
War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216
It's you and your religion against them and theirs. They won't stop fighting until they make you a "renegade from your religion" and if they succeed in that so you die in disbelief, Allah will burn you forever in the Fire. 2:217
"The disbelievers, they are the wrong-doers." 2:254
Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. 3:28
Why does Allah like Muslims so much? Because they are the best people on earth, they behave themselves, forbid indecency, and believe in Allah. Allah loves people who believe in him. (Most Non-muslims are "evil-livers.") 3:110
Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you. 3:118
The disbelievers are an open enemy to you. 4:101
Do not choose disbelievers as friends. 4:144
Those who make war with Allah and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom. 5:33
Non-muslims are wrong doers. 5:45
Most unbelievers are ignorant. 6:111
Disbelief is the greatest evil. 7:37
Disbelievers are liars. 7:66
Those who deny Muhammad's revelations are like dogs. 7:176
Those who deny Muhammad's revelation are evil. 7:177
When you fight with disbelievers, do not retreat. Those who do will go to hell. 8:15-16
Fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. 8:39
Exhort the believers to fight. They will win easily, because disbelievers are without intelligence. 8:65
Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. 9:5
Those who submit and convert to Islam will be treated well. (Those who don't submit will be killed. See previous verse.) 9:6
Don't make treaties with non-Muslims. They are all evildoers and should not be trusted. 9:7-9
Treat converts to Islam well. (Kill those who refuse to convert. See 9:5) 9:11
And evidently the Islam and Nazis share a similar view of Jews
[spoiler]
Allah has cursed the Jews and hardened their hearts. Nearly all of them are treacherous. 5:12-13
Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them. 5:51
Jews and Christians are losers. 5:53
Don't choose Jews, Christians, or disbelievers as guardians. 5:57
Jews and Christians are evil-livers. 5:59
Evil is the handiwork of the rabbis and priests. 5:63
Allah has cast enmity and hatred among the Jews. 5:64
The Jews rejected and killed Allah's prophets, since "they were wilfully blind and deaf." 5:70-71
"Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe to be the Jews." 5:82
Allah turns Jews into apes! 7:166
Fight against Christians and Jews "until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low." 9:29
Christians and Jews are perverse. Allah himself fights against them. 9:30
Allah turned Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes to be despised and hated. All modern Jews are descendants of apes (or all modern apes are descendants of Sabbath-breaking Jews). 2:65-66
Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But even that "would by no means remove the doom." 2:96
As someone who has read the Qu'ran in arabic, and is fluent in Arabic. I can tell you those are wrong.
The Qu'ran tells you to respect Judaism and Christianity because they came first.
[29:46] Do not argue with the people of the scripture (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) except in the nicest possible manner - unless they transgress - and say, "We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is one and the same; to Him we are submitters."
[31:18-19] "You shall not treat the people with arrogance, nor shall you roam the earth proudly. GOD does not like the arrogant showoffs. "Walk humbly and lower your voice - the ugliest voice is the donkey's voice."
[41:34] Not equal is the good response and the bad response. You shall resort to the nicest possible response. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend
Dont try to post a bs interpretations of a book to spread hate.
Yeah, my knowledge of Arabic is extremely limited, but I could tell just by reading the English quotes that adamsouza posted that the translation he was referring to was absolutely horrible.
Hordini wrote: They can assert their beliefs and laws as much as they want, that isn't going to ever give them any legal standing, especially not in the US. All the crap about Muslims trying to bring Sharia law to the US is conspiracy theory fear tactics.
The "Religion of Truth" (Islam) must prevail, by force if necessary, over all other religions. 9:33
They assert that they have freedom of religion in the US. Then when what they want to do conflicts with anything they claim descrimination and persecution.
Allah says that you must keep fighting until there is no more persecution and everyone on earth is a Muslim. Then you can stop killing people. 2:193a
Do not obey disbelievers. 3:149
Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim. 3:73
Sam Harris wrote:I invite [those] who haven't read the Quran to simple read the book. Take out a highlighter and highlight those lines that counsel the believer to despise infidels, and you will find a book that is just covered with highlighter.--
Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers. 2:98
Allah has revealed "clear tokens." Only evil people are disbelievers. 2:99
The Jews and Christians know damn well that the Muslims are right, so they try to make Muslims disbelievers because they envy the truth that they know the Muslims have. 2:109
Disbelievers are losers. 2:121
Those who disbelieve in the Quran, for whatever reason, are cursed by Allah, the angels, and men combined. So every good Muslim must join Allah and the angels in cursing nonbelievers. 2:161
"Those who disbelieve [are] Deaf, dumb, blind, therefore they have no sense." 2:171
Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2
War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216
It's you and your religion against them and theirs. They won't stop fighting until they make you a "renegade from your religion" and if they succeed in that so you die in disbelief, Allah will burn you forever in the Fire. 2:217
"The disbelievers, they are the wrong-doers." 2:254
Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. 3:28
Why does Allah like Muslims so much? Because they are the best people on earth, they behave themselves, forbid indecency, and believe in Allah. Allah loves people who believe in him. (Most Non-muslims are "evil-livers.") 3:110
Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you. 3:118
The disbelievers are an open enemy to you. 4:101
Do not choose disbelievers as friends. 4:144
Those who make war with Allah and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom. 5:33
Non-muslims are wrong doers. 5:45
Most unbelievers are ignorant. 6:111
Disbelief is the greatest evil. 7:37
Disbelievers are liars. 7:66
Those who deny Muhammad's revelations are like dogs. 7:176
Those who deny Muhammad's revelation are evil. 7:177
When you fight with disbelievers, do not retreat. Those who do will go to hell. 8:15-16
Fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. 8:39
Exhort the believers to fight. They will win easily, because disbelievers are without intelligence. 8:65
Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. 9:5
Those who submit and convert to Islam will be treated well. (Those who don't submit will be killed. See previous verse.) 9:6
Don't make treaties with non-Muslims. They are all evildoers and should not be trusted. 9:7-9
Treat converts to Islam well. (Kill those who refuse to convert. See 9:5) 9:11
And evidently the Islam and Nazis share a similar view of Jews
[spoiler]
Allah has cursed the Jews and hardened their hearts. Nearly all of them are treacherous. 5:12-13
Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them. 5:51
Jews and Christians are losers. 5:53
Don't choose Jews, Christians, or disbelievers as guardians. 5:57
Jews and Christians are evil-livers. 5:59
Evil is the handiwork of the rabbis and priests. 5:63
Allah has cast enmity and hatred among the Jews. 5:64
The Jews rejected and killed Allah's prophets, since "they were wilfully blind and deaf." 5:70-71
"Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe to be the Jews." 5:82
Allah turns Jews into apes! 7:166
Fight against Christians and Jews "until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low." 9:29
Christians and Jews are perverse. Allah himself fights against them. 9:30
Allah turned Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes to be despised and hated. All modern Jews are descendants of apes (or all modern apes are descendants of Sabbath-breaking Jews). 2:65-66
Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But even that "would by no means remove the doom." 2:96
As someone who has read the Qu'ran in arabic, and is fluent in Arabic. I can tell you those are wrong.
The Qu'ran tells you to respect Judaism and Christianity because they came first.
[29:46] Do not argue with the people of the scripture (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) except in the nicest possible manner - unless they transgress - and say, "We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is one and the same; to Him we are submitters."
[31:18-19] "You shall not treat the people with arrogance, nor shall you roam the earth proudly. GOD does not like the arrogant showoffs. "Walk humbly and lower your voice - the ugliest voice is the donkey's voice."
[41:34] Not equal is the good response and the bad response. You shall resort to the nicest possible response. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend
Dont try to post a bs interpretations of a book to spread hate.
Yeah, my knowledge of Arabic is extremely limited, but I could tell just by reading the English quotes that adamsouza posted that the translation he was referring to was absolutely horrible.
Not horrible, incorrect.
“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God/Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand- hold, that never breaks. And God/Allah heareth and know eth all things.” The Holy Quran, Chapter 2, Verse 256.
Hordini wrote: They can assert their beliefs and laws as much as they want, that isn't going to ever give them any legal standing, especially not in the US. All the crap about Muslims trying to bring Sharia law to the US is conspiracy theory fear tactics.
The "Religion of Truth" (Islam) must prevail, by force if necessary, over all other religions. 9:33
They assert that they have freedom of religion in the US. Then when what they want to do conflicts with anything they claim descrimination and persecution.
Allah says that you must keep fighting until there is no more persecution and everyone on earth is a Muslim. Then you can stop killing people. 2:193a
Do not obey disbelievers. 3:149
Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim. 3:73
Sam Harris wrote:I invite [those] who haven't read the Quran to simple read the book. Take out a highlighter and highlight those lines that counsel the believer to despise infidels, and you will find a book that is just covered with highlighter.--
Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers. 2:98
Allah has revealed "clear tokens." Only evil people are disbelievers. 2:99
The Jews and Christians know damn well that the Muslims are right, so they try to make Muslims disbelievers because they envy the truth that they know the Muslims have. 2:109
Disbelievers are losers. 2:121
Those who disbelieve in the Quran, for whatever reason, are cursed by Allah, the angels, and men combined. So every good Muslim must join Allah and the angels in cursing nonbelievers. 2:161
"Those who disbelieve [are] Deaf, dumb, blind, therefore they have no sense." 2:171
Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kil them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2
War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216
It's you and your religion against them and theirs. They won't stop fighting until they make you a "renegade from your religion" and if they succeed in that so you die in disbelief, Allah will burn you forever in the Fire. 2:217
"The disbelievers, they are the wrong-doers." 2:254
Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. 3:28
Why does Allah like Muslims so much? Because they are the best people on earth, they behave themselves, forbid indecency, and believe in Allah. Allah loves people who believe in him. (Most Non-muslims are "evil-livers.") 3:110
Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you. 3:118
The disbelievers are an open enemy to you. 4:101
Do not choose disbelievers as friends. 4:144
Those who make war with Allah and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom. 5:33
Non-muslims are wrong doers. 5:45
Most unbelievers are ignorant. 6:111
Disbelief is the greatest evil. 7:37
Disbelievers are liars. 7:66
Those who deny Muhammad's revelations are like dogs. 7:176
Those who deny Muhammad's revelation are evil. 7:177
When you fight with disbelievers, do not retreat. Those who do will go to hell. 8:15-16
Fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. 8:39
Exhort the believers to fight. They will win easily, because disbelievers are without intelligence. 8:65
Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. 9:5
Those who submit and convert to Islam will be treated well. (Those who don't submit will be killed. See previous verse.) 9:6
Don't make treaties with non-Muslims. They are all evildoers and should not be trusted. 9:7-9
Treat converts to Islam well. (Kill those who refuse to convert. See 9:5) 9:11
And evidently the Islam and Nazis share a similar view of Jews
[spoiler]
Allah has cursed the Jews and hardened their hearts. Nearly all of them are treacherous. 5:12-13
Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them. 5:51
Jews and Christians are losers. 5:53
Don't choose Jews, Christians, or disbelievers as guardians. 5:57
Jews and Christians are evil-livers. 5:59
Evil is the handiwork of the rabbis and priests. 5:63
Allah has cast enmity and hatred among the Jews. 5:64
The Jews rejected and killed Allah's prophets, since "they were wilfully blind and deaf." 5:70-71
"Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe to be the Jews." 5:82
Allah turns Jews into apes! 7:166
Fight against Christians and Jews "until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low." 9:29
Christians and Jews are perverse. Allah himself fights against them. 9:30
Allah turned Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes to be despised and hated. All modern Jews are descendants of apes (or all modern apes are descendants of Sabbath-breaking Jews). 2:65-66
Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But even that "would by no means remove the doom." 2:96
As someone who has read the Qu'ran in arabic, and is fluent in Arabic. I can tell you those are wrong.
The Qu'ran tells you to respect Judaism and Christianity because they came first.
[29:46] Do not argue with the people of the scripture (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) except in the nicest possible manner - unless they transgress - and say, "We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is one and the same; to Him we are submitters."
[31:18-19] "You shall not treat the people with arrogance, nor shall you roam the earth proudly. GOD does not like the arrogant showoffs. "Walk humbly and lower your voice - the ugliest voice is the donkey's voice."
[41:34] Not equal is the good response and the bad response. You shall resort to the nicest possible response. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend
Dont try to post a bs interpretations of a book to spread hate.
Yeah, my knowledge of Arabic is extremely limited, but I could tell just by reading the English quotes that adamsouza posted that the translation he was referring to was absolutely horrible.
Not horrible, incorrect.
“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God/Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand- hold, that never breaks. And God/Allah heareth and know eth all things.” The Holy Quran, Chapter 2, Verse 256.
And yes. Allah literally translates to god.
As far as I'm concerned, an incorrect translation is a horrible translation. It's not the only way a translation can be horrible, but it's certainly one of the most obvious.
Medium of Death wrote: Boss I don't mean to sound like Britain has it worse, but by living here it automatically becomes the focus of y points. I don't doubt that other countries have problems. Indeed, Germany has seen large anti-Muslim protests recently. Normal people mixing with skinheads, which I think speaks to the frustration felt by a lot of people about immigration/integration. I've also mentioned Sweden and Calais in France.
During my time stationed in Germany, I saw this sort of thing first hand. Part of the problem, is you get a group of young Turks who are taught by their elders to believe that Turkey (the homeland) is this seriously fething cool place, it was soooooOOOooooo great, etc. etc. etc. But they're living in Germany, whilst often times wanting "Turkey" brought to Germany (ie, laws/customs, etc) but the Germans say, "no... this is Germany, and in Germany you should adopt German customs" (Except Doener Kebap... those are fething awesome), so these young Turks go to Turkey, to get away from the "gak hole" that is Germany, but are then told by Turkish people in Turkey, "you are not a Turk, you're a German... go back to Germany"
So you can kind of get the idea of what I'm getting at. It's a cycle that starts with older people desiring the Government's support in bringing their culture/ideas to law, in this case, bringing more Muslim friendly practices to a place that is pretty far from Muslim. It then transfers to the younger generation through the elder in the familial traditions and the like. And when the younger generation become adults, and realize that they aren't very "wanted", they head to a place they've been told they will be wanted. When they're rejected from there as well, they return to the first place even more pissed off and bewildered than before. By this point, they are often of an age where they are seeking life mates, having children, etc. and repeating the cycle.
The Jews and Christians know damn well that the Muslims are right, so they try to make Muslims disbelievers because they envy the truth that they know the Muslims have. 2:109
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this, and anything associated with it, is not a faithful translation. Unless God chose to speak in idioms from 1400 years in the future, in which case we should all start praising Allah.
Medium of Death wrote: It's all very well and good to say that these quotes are bs but they circulate quite frequently.
Which matters because....?
Yeah, it's like this other quote (and others of the same general message) which circulates frequently:
You see the same thing from people who argue for creationism, the anti-vaxxers, holocaust deniers, people who believe the moon landings were faked etc.. They keep repeating the same false statements, no matter how many times they are disproved by reliable sources, until people actually believe they are true due to repetition.
Think quite a few of you all need to spend some time in a Islamic country.
Any of these will do.
Turkey
Iraq
Afghanistan
Kuwait
Egypt
UAE
Saudi
to name a few
Jihadin wrote: Think quite a few of you all need to spend some time in a Islamic country.
Any of these will do.
Turkey
Iraq
Afghanistan
Kuwait
Egypt
UAE
Saudi
to name a few
Which of us do you mean? The ones who read quotes like the one Dogma mentioned and think that they are accurate, credible translations of the Qur'an?
Jihadin wrote: Think quite a few of you all need to spend some time in a Islamic country.
Any of these will do.
Turkey
Iraq
Afghanistan
Kuwait
Egypt
UAE
Saudi
to name a few
Which of us do you mean? The ones who read quotes like the one Dogma mentioned and think that they are accurate, credible translations of the Qur'an?
Your good Hordini being you can see two sides of the coins. The "Tekeyya" is real. I've dealt with it on the logistical side of the house with host country counter parts. One will actually meet good professionals that enjoys dealing with other professionals and learn from each other. Then you will come across those who fall into a certain aspect of Tekeyya and after a getting a few burns one has to turn the tables on them and ask them to beat their integrity of the quality of their work.
Been there. A guy, who I later realized was a pimp, tried to take my head off after I danced with a girl and didn't pay him. Thankfully I am faster than most people.
Outside that, Istanbul is a great city, probably my favorite. Other contenders are London, Paris, Tokyo, and Rio...where a taxi driver tried to mug me with what can best be described as a crowbar.
UAE is good but you have to respect their traditions. They do give a lot of leeway but don't walk into the mall in just a bathing suit.
Isn't that basically how the US works?
Your prosecuted under their laws though unless one falls under the SOFA but as a civilian your SoL. I believe contractors though fall a bit under SOFA but in some countries for them to work there you have to be sponsored by the employing agency.
We've a few Dakka members who fall under this who can clear a lot better then I can.
Like in Saudi some SPC took a GSA vehicle out and was doing "drifiting" and was caught. We slammed the crap out of him. Saudi's who are caught drifting gets beheaded
Jihadin wrote: Think quite a few of you all need to spend some time in a Islamic country.
Any of these will do.
Turkey
Iraq
Afghanistan
Kuwait
Egypt
UAE
Saudi
to name a few
Which of us do you mean? The ones who read quotes like the one Dogma mentioned and think that they are accurate, credible translations of the Qur'an?
Your good Hordini being you can see two sides of the coins. The "Tekeyya" is real. I've dealt with it on the logistical side of the house with host country counter parts. One will actually meet good professionals that enjoys dealing with other professionals and learn from each other. Then you will come across those who fall into a certain aspect of Tekeyya and after a getting a few burns one has to turn the tables on them and ask them to beat their integrity of the quality of their work.
Thanks. And yeah, I've been to a few Islamic and Muslim-majority countries myself (a couple you listed, and one you didn't). Which is one of the reasons I feel somewhat obligated to share my two cents in a lot of these threads.
What part of Istanbul were you in when that happened, Dogma? Near Taksim or farther out?
Medium of Death wrote: Boss I don't mean to sound like Britain has it worse, but by living here it automatically becomes the focus of y points. I don't doubt that other countries have problems. Indeed, Germany has seen large anti-Muslim protests recently. Normal people mixing with skinheads, which I think speaks to the frustration felt by a lot of people about immigration/integration. I've also mentioned Sweden and Calais in France.
I guess my point about the working population is that a lot of them don't have the option to emigrate? I also think that it'd be easier to reduce the numbers of immigrants into the country to try and solve that problem. Like you say, it isn't the be all and end all but it does contribute significantly. It's also something we could get a handle on pretty easily.
... ...
All UK citizens have the right to migrate to any other country in the EU regardless of their level of skills or employment status.
About half the immigrants into the UK are EU citizens who have the same legal rights as UK citizens. This form of immigration cannot be controlled without the UK leaving the EU.
About 80% of the rest of the migrants are "high value" people from countries like China, the Philippines and Norway, who require a visa. These people are granted visas because we need students to enroll at our universities, oil executives to run our oil companies, and nurses to staff our hospitals. We could of course refuse these people visas, but it would be counter productive.
The other 10% of migrants are mostly various types of refugees.
A certain number of immigrants like my wife are foreign nationals granted the right to live in the UK due to bonds of marriage, family, etc. I can tell you from personal experience that the visas granted to such are difficult and expensive to obtain.
Jihadin wrote: Think quite a few of you all need to spend some time in a Islamic country.
Any of these will do.
Turkey
Iraq
Afghanistan
Kuwait
Egypt
UAE
Saudi
to name a few
For about 2 years of my life "In Shalla" (spelling phonetically) was the bane of my existence
Because it is pretty different from what happens here in France. We do have a few Lebanese immigrants that are Christians, but we mostly have lots of North African immigrants or descendant of immigrants that are mostly Muslims, with a few Jew.
Thanks for the link .
Hordini wrote: Why should I care what two consenting adult parties use to arbitrate disputes between themselves as long as they aren't doing anything illegal?
Because of the consent part. That one is tricky. Much more trickier than “If she wanted a non-Sharia court, she would have said so“.
Hordini wrote: Yeah, my knowledge of Arabic is extremely limited, but I could tell just by reading the English quotes that adamsouza posted that the translation he was referring to was absolutely horrible.
My advice when trying to understand some quote from the Quran: use this website. It will allow you to compare a bunch on different translations. Try it on 4:34, it goes from “scourge [your wives]” to “(and last) beat [your wives] (lightly, if it is useful)”, so I am pretty confident they cover a wide range of interpretations, from progressive (I mean, for a religious text ) to conservative.
I can only suggest that everyone in this thread check their quotes against this website before posting them.
Medium of Death wrote: Boss I don't mean to sound like Britain has it worse, but by living here it automatically becomes the focus of y points. I don't doubt that other countries have problems. Indeed, Germany has seen large anti-Muslim protests recently. Normal people mixing with skinheads, which I think speaks to the frustration felt by a lot of people about immigration/integration. I've also mentioned Sweden and Calais in France.
I guess my point about the working population is that a lot of them don't have the option to emigrate? I also think that it'd be easier to reduce the numbers of immigrants into the country to try and solve that problem. Like you say, it isn't the be all and end all but it does contribute significantly. It's also something we could get a handle on pretty easily.
...
...
All UK citizens have the right to migrate to any other country in the EU regardless of their level of skills or employment status.
About half the immigrants into the UK are EU citizens who have the same legal rights as UK citizens. This form of immigration cannot be controlled without the UK leaving the EU.
About 80% of the rest of the migrants are "high value" people from countries like China, the Philippines and Norway, who require a visa. These people are granted visas because we need students to enroll at our universities, oil executives to run our oil companies, and nurses to staff our hospitals. We could of course refuse these people visas, but it would be counter productive.
The other 10% of migrants are mostly various types of refugees.
A certain number of immigrants like my wife are foreign nationals granted the right to live in the UK due to bonds of marriage, family, etc. I can tell you from personal experience that the visas granted to such are difficult and expensive to obtain.
Yeah, this is nonsense. Having the rights is fun and all, but working class has no way of paying for the move, nor finding a job to make it happen in the first place. Reality is a bitch about these things.
How come all these Romanian and Polish working class have the money to pay for a move to the UK, and the UK working class don't have the money to pay for a move to Poland and Romania?
Kilkrazy wrote: How come all these Romanian and Polish working class have the money to pay for a move to the UK, and the UK working class don't have the money to pay for a move to Poland and Romania?
No money for the UK Middle class to move to Poland or Romania. More money to be made in the UK
Kilkrazy wrote: How come all these Romanian and Polish working class have the money to pay for a move to the UK, and the UK working class don't have the money to pay for a move to Poland and Romania?
The Romanians and Polish must be taking ALL DER DERBS!
Kilkrazy wrote: How come all these Romanian and Polish working class have the money to pay for a move to the UK, and the UK working class don't have the money to pay for a move to Poland and Romania?
No money for the UK Middle class to move to Poland or Romania. More money to be made in the UK
We are talking about working class, not middle class.
The political debate about immigration in sweden is fethed up in far to many ways to mention them all.
But a good beginning is to look to both the far left and far right.
Neither side has contributed positively in any way shape or form for their respective sides..
I can list many incidents where both the left and right have started stupid gak.
And also many downright criminal acts.
Like bombing someones house for instance.
At the present moment in sweden it is virtually impossible to have any form of sensible debate about immigration.
The fronts are to set. And both sides are equally moronic/pigheaded to do anything to change said behaviour..
A good start would be a complete change of leadership on the respective far sides..
Kilkrazy wrote: How come all these Romanian and Polish working class have the money to pay for a move to the UK, and the UK working class don't have the money to pay for a move to Poland and Romania?
I imagine the language barrier is a more significant issue. English is taught damn near everywhere, Polish and Romanian not so much.
Kilkrazy wrote: How come all these Romanian and Polish working class have the money to pay for a move to the UK, and the UK working class don't have the money to pay for a move to Poland and Romania?
I imagine the language barrier is a more significant issue. English is taught damn near everywhere, Polish and Romanian not so much.
And yet one of the complaints thrown at immigrants is that they don't bother to learn english...
That's debatable, factoring in cost of living the money may well be better in places like Poland; at least if all other things are held equal. Of course moving from somewhere like the UK to somewhere like Poland involves bringing all of your UK financial baggage with you, and it isn't easy to pay down a GBP debt with PLN.
That's debatable, factoring in cost of living the money may well be better in places like Poland; at least if all other things are held equal. Of course moving from somewhere like the UK to somewhere like Poland involves bringing all of your UK financial baggage with you, and it isn't easy to pay down a GBP debt with PLN.
True but if their immigrating to UK and sending money home to their relatives..besides I will visit Romania again
Kilkrazy wrote: How come all these Romanian and Polish working class have the money to pay for a move to the UK, and the UK working class don't have the money to pay for a move to Poland and Romania?
No money for the UK Middle class to move to Poland or Romania. More money to be made in the UK
We are talking about working class, not middle class.
... are you saying that middle-class people don't work? Who the feth do you think is *in* the middle class?
Kilkrazy wrote: How come all these Romanian and Polish working class have the money to pay for a move to the UK, and the UK working class don't have the money to pay for a move to Poland and Romania?
No money for the UK Middle class to move to Poland or Romania. More money to be made in the UK
We are talking about working class, not middle class.
... are you saying that middle-class people don't work? Who the feth do you think is *in* the middle class?
No, he's not. There is a wealth difference between middle class and working class, despite what corporations and politicians in the USA like to spin.
For example, a typical "working class job" would be something like labourer or supermarket shop assistant.
Kilkrazy wrote: How come all these Romanian and Polish working class have the money to pay for a move to the UK, and the UK working class don't have the money to pay for a move to Poland and Romania?
They don't. A lot of these moves are funded by temporary work agencies or employers who provide housing and legal assistance. These workers are payed above the market wages found in Eastern Europe but below the going (legal) minimum wage. It's simply a form of market arbitrage by employers. In comparison, there is no price advantage for Polish or Romanian firms to hire west European workers.
Hardest hit by the influx of east European workers are (muslim) immigrants and their children from the north Africa and the middle east. They can't compete on price with east Europeans and often lack the language skills to move to service industry jobs with other native displaced workers.
Kilkrazy wrote: How come all these Romanian and Polish working class have the money to pay for a move to the UK, and the UK working class don't have the money to pay for a move to Poland and Romania?
No money for the UK Middle class to move to Poland or Romania. More money to be made in the UK
We are talking about working class, not middle class.
... are you saying that middle-class people don't work? Who the feth do you think is *in* the middle class?
No, he's not. There is a wealth difference between middle class and working class, despite what corporations and politicians in the USA like to spin.
For example, a typical "working class job" would be something like labourer or supermarket shop assistant.
There are a *lot* of blue-collar jobs in the US that put the worker quite solidly into the Middle Class. Maybe it's different in the UK, I dunno, but, here, plumbers, carpenters, electricians, masons, and garbage-truck drivers, just to name a few, earn really good money.
There are a *lot* of blue-collar jobs in the US that put the worker quite solidly into the Middle Class. Maybe it's different in the UK, I dunno, but, here, plumbers, carpenters, electricians, masons, and garbage-truck drivers, just to name a few, earn really good money.
Some of those on that list, and some that you didn't include are becoming "critically short" on workers. The episode of "Undercover Boss" with the CEO of Roto-Rooter's parent company, I recall them talking about having a retire-new in the field hire ratio approaching 2:1 (as in, they are nearly seeing 2 plumbers retire for every one hired to replace them)
I've heard about construction projects grinding to a near halt, or a full halt, because the companies couldn't hire enough welders to get the jobs done.... And that isn't a problem I foresee going away anytime soon, as most welding types that I personally know (who are trained in it, etc) ideally want to work for custom auto shops, motorcycle shops and the like. Most of them aren't really there to get into heavy construction.
Sweden protest after three mosque fires in one week
Demonstrators held leaflets saying "Don't touch my mosque" at the 1,000-strong rally outside parliament.
A petrol bomb was thrown at a mosque in Uppsala, eastern Sweden, on Thursday. The building did not catch fire.
In late December a mosque was set ablaze at Esloev in the south, and earlier an arson attack on a mosque in Eskilstuna injured five people.
Anti-racism rallies also took place in the cities of Malmo and Gothenburg on Friday.
In Stockholm Sweden's Culture Minister Alice Bah Kuhnke said the government would launch a national strategy to counter Islamophobia. The idea is to educate people about Islam and curb prejudice, she said.
In a mark of solidarity well-wishers plastered the entrance to the Uppsala mosque with red love hearts after Thursday's attack.
So far the police investigation has not led to any arrests following the arson attacks.
The government has pledged to step up security at places of worship.
Culture Minister Bah Kuhnke told the Stockholm rally that the attacks were "aimed at intimidating and diminishing" people.
"That's why one of the most important things we can do is to not let ourselves be intimidated," AFP news agency quoted her as saying.
Immigration has become a hot topic of debate in Sweden, which accepts more asylum seekers per capita than any other European country.
The anti-immigration Sweden Democrats, who got 13% in elections last September, want a 90% cut in the number of asylum seekers allowed into Sweden. Last month the party nearly brought down the new coalition government, in a protest against its asylum policy.
About 16% of Sweden's population are foreign-born, many of them from war-torn Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria - all Muslim-majority countries.
Matthew wrote: Well, from my view that idiot Jimmie Åkesson is the only one worried about islamization.
I wouldn't call him an idiot, he's clearly a very shrewd and charismatic politician. It's just that his entire ideology is abhorrent.
On a related note, I love how this thread went from "Mosques attacked" to "Islam is incompatible with the West". We'll, there certainly seem to be a bunch of us Westerners who are also incompatible with the West.
But everyone here keeps ignoring the real problem! This is the second coming of the Black Metal Inner Circle! We need to put some cops to watch everyone who buys corpse paint, and build only fireproof worship places. Or alternatively, ban every religion except the worship of Satan and Cthulhu.
Just out of curiosity, do we know the particular sect of these mosques that were attacked? There is sectarian strife in quite a few Islamic countries, and it bleeding over into immigrant communities isn't unheard of.
I ask because the USA had a mosque vandalism on Christmas eve, the immediate assumption was anti-Islam folks, and it turned out to be a Muslim who perpetrated the act.
Different circumstances, but Shaima al-awadi comes to mind as well. That didn't really turn out the way people that were bashing the supposedly anti-islamic right wanted.
Matthew wrote: Well, from my view that idiot Jimmie Åkesson is the only one worried about islamization.
I wouldn't call him an idiot, he's clearly a very shrewd and charismatic politician. It's just that his entire ideology is abhorrent.
On a related note, I love how this thread went from "Mosques attacked" to "Islam is incompatible with the West". We'll, there certainly seem to be a bunch of us Westerners who are also incompatible with the West.
Well, for what it’s worth, I’m glad you folks in Sweden are taking a resolute stance against these atrocious acts. I only wish my own kind had as much backbone as you guys.
Redcruisair wrote: I only wish my own kind had as much backbone as you guys.
I'm curious as to what you mean by this.
Probably in reference to the anti-islam/immigration marches that took place in Dresden (if I remember correctly)?
Heh, yeah that too. Though, I was actually referring to my other home, Denmark.
Some of our politicians wanted to erect a giant barrier spanning the entire Danish coast and the German-Danish border. This was meant to keep smugglers and other… unwanted human “drecks” from entering our country.
I wonder could these attacks be anyhow connected to the new political reforms made in sweden. For those who don't know what these reforms are, all the swedish parties united against the swedish democrats, and made a law which would make it possible to have minority governments. This is arguably undemocratic, but what the real purpose of this law is to keep the swedish deocrats out of the government at all costs. This means that it is practially impossible for the swedes to vote against the massive immigration that we discussed a few pages back. Also, this will most likely anger the right wing voters, as the right wing coalition gave their support to the law, which means that the left will be in control for four years with a minority government, which in turn means that the right wing voters had their votes discarded.
Matthew wrote: Well, from my view that idiot Jimmie Åkesson is the only one worried about islamization.
I wouldn't call him an idiot, he's clearly a very shrewd and charismatic politician. It's just that his entire ideology is abhorrent.
On a related note, I love how this thread went from "Mosques attacked" to "Islam is incompatible with the West". We'll, there certainly seem to be a bunch of us Westerners who are also incompatible with the West.
Redcruisair wrote: I only wish my own kind had as much backbone as you guys.
"As much backbone" as being the most open country to immigration in the EU?
Germany needs a system as used in the US. Their current immigration politics are already starting to affect the economy and EVERY analysis done on the impact of limitless immigration shows a bleak outcome for Germany. Too bad that Germany is filled with irrational Gutmenschen who, if any sort if immigration politic is brought up, immediately call "RACIST RAAAAAAAACISSSSSSST!".
Germany does benefit from immigration on the whole, but certain areas (mostly in NRW) have a pretty huge level of immigration at the moment. Germany took in the most immigrants in the EU last year, and is very generous in it's assessment of refugees and asylum seekers.
It should definitely be possible to have a debate around immigration in Germany without people being called racist, because the country is pretty far from that. (Though I do see a lot of prejudice against germans of Turkish descent).
That said, Germany has an aging population and without immigrants would be approaching a negative population growth. Demographically, that's bad news. And I've read a fair bit of evidence that due to the number of skilled and educated immigrants Germany attracts, immigration is a net benefit for Germany.
I mean, Ireland paid a crap ton of money to educate me (free third level education plus scholarships) and here I am in Germany paying tax and contributing to your economy, while Ireland struggles with mass emigration and reduced cash flow. My government essentially produces graduates for export, which is also a pretty crappy situation.
Edit to Add: I'd say the biggest worries with regard to mass immigration are cultural rather than economic. The various groups of immigrants integrate to differing levels. I know that many turkish immigrants stay in turkish enclaves and struggle to learn german or integrate into german culture. Many are in their third generation in germany and still identify as Turkish over German. That is both their fault (primarily) for failing to integrate and also a consequence (in my opinion) of increased discrimination against them because they are obviously "non-european". Italians, eastern Europeans and even myself seem to be happily accepted by most Germans, and it's not easy to spot that I'm not German on the street, unlike a Turkish German. In fact, most people I meet are extremely friendly and pleased to have an English speaker around to practice with. I have been doing VHS German courses so that I'm getting reasonably good with my German, and I think that should be a priority for immigrants coming in (many of my co-workers fail to do this and therefore never fully integrate).
Integration is key to getting the best out of your immigrants. I think Germany does a good job these days with that, but unfortunately previously it wasn't so well managed from what I can see (with the gastarbeiters being seen as very temporary and then becoming quite permanent, for example).
But I can see why an elderly german in say, inner Duisburg, might have problems when he sees that he is now surrounded by some fairly unfriendly looking, non-German speaking youths from a drastically different culture to the one he grew up in. Or why Germans get annoyed when antisemitism from immigrants from Palestine, Turkey and Arab nations is reported as "German antisemitism". Germans don't want anything to do with stuff like that, it seems to me, and it's a tricky thing to say anything about it. My german students are really scared of being called racist, it's the trump card that can be dropped on them any time. I always tell them not to worry about it so much, because it really borders on neurosis in some cases.
Redcruisair wrote: I only wish my own kind had as much backbone as you guys.
"As much backbone" as being the most open country to immigration in the EU?
Germany needs a system as used in the US. Their current immigration politics are already starting to affect the economy and EVERY analysis done on the impact of limitless immigration shows a bleak outcome for Germany. Too bad that Germany is filled with irrational Gutmenschen who, if any sort if immigration politic is brought up, immediately call "RACIST RAAAAAAAACISSSSSSST!".
No. I meant having the backbone as in being openly against fracking HATE CRIMES, man. Did you miss the part about Molotov cocktails being thrown at mosques with people in them?
Where was the condemnation and outcry when a band of neo-nazis went around systematically murdering foreigners in Germany? People with eastern nationality were hunted down and killed by gunmen and the German population at large didn’t give a single toss about it.
Where was the condemnation and outcry when a band of neo-nazis went around systematically murdering foreigners in Germany? People with eastern nationality were hunted down and killed by gunmen and the German population at large didn’t give a single toss about it.
Where was the condemnation and outcry when a band of neo-nazis went around systematically murdering foreigners in Germany? People with eastern nationality were hunted down and killed by gunmen and the German population at large didn’t give a single toss about it.
Really? You seriously bring the NSU case up and claim that "noone cared" when it's the biggest lawsuit Germany has seen in a long time, with widespread media coverage?
Sigvatr wrote: Really? You seriously bring the NSU case up and claim that "noone cared" when it's the biggest lawsuit Germany has seen in a long time, with widespread media coverage?
I brought it up because it lacked a similar story to this. I know caneler Angela Merkel was quick to condemn the assassinations, but were was the public outcry?
But hey, if I’ve missed any of such stories, then feel free to fill me in.
Around my area, whenever the Neo-Nazi idiots put up their propoganda (they seem to like papering the telephone poles and trees near my International School with "Auslander Aus!" signs- classy, right? Make those little kids feel welcome!), the anti-fascist crowd comes around pretty much the day afterward and papers over their stickers with anti-fascist stickers. So I think you guys do pretty well on the whole anti-racism front.
Better than some of your neighboring countries that like to play the "We were totes innocent victims of the holocaust and definitely didn't collaborate AT ALL! " card
Da Boss wrote: Better than some of your neighboring countries that like to play the "We were totes innocent victims of the holocaust and definitely didn't collaborate AT ALL! " card
Da Boss wrote: Better than some of your neighboring countries that like to play the "We were totes innocent victims of the holocaust and definitely didn't collaborate AT ALL! " card
I brought it up because it lacked a similar story to this. I know caneler Angela Merkel was quick to condemn the assassinations, but were was the public outcry?
Are you kidding? Do you know when those took place? Point out where exactly noone cared. Thanks.
Da Boss wrote: Better than some of your neighboring countries that like to play the "We were totes innocent victims of the holocaust and definitely didn't collaborate AT ALL! " card
Thinking of one country in particular?
I had Austria, Hungary and Poland in mind, but I'm sure others could be added to the list.
. The Trve Kvlt 3v1l Bl4ck Methvl 2: return of the vengeance of the son of the Inner Black Circle.
.
