curran12 wrote: They are in other countries, countries where it is very difficult to just walk up and say "hey they are stealing our copyright".
This is exactly true. Most of the recasts that are made are from Russia or China, and China especially doesn't give a about copyright in other countries. These sites do eventually get shut down, however.
EDIT: And I'm not sure how allowed talk about recasters in on Dakka. I'm sure the talk about it is fine, but any links to recasters is prohibited.
You sound as if you're surprised that someone has done something of questionable legality in order to make money. Plus, it's not really illegal in Russia or China. No one cares what some other country's laws are.
IP law differs from country to country, hence in some places (such as China) it is legal to reproduce (or, I suspect the legal system is actively disinterested in prosecuting anyone) other company's products.
I'm fairly sure that the legality focuses more on the sale, and production, of fake goods, rather than the purchase, so you then have a situation where neither the purchaser nor the seller are breaking any domestic law.
The recasts are not counterfeit (counterfeiting requires an intent to deceive - to pass the fake off as genuine, any recasters I've seen make no secret of the fact that their product isn't the real deal, and charge a price commensurate with that) nor are they theft (theft requires removal of property) so there is no criminal element to what recasters are doing (within this context) which makes law enforcement disinterested, and therefore it boils down to individual parties and how motivated they are to defend themselves.
I don't think it's coincidence that GW essentially got beaten up in the courts in the Chapterhouse case, then went after the soft target of some of the higher profile, easier to find, recasters, but while the Chinese government seems to be actively protecting this sort of industry, it is only a short time before it all pops back up again.
I suspect many of the governments of these websites' countries probably don't even have the capability to effectively protect foreign copywrites, let alone their own.
Azreal13 wrote: IP law differs from country to country, hence in some places (such as China) it is legal to reproduce (or, I suspect the legal system is actively disinterested in prosecuting anyone) other company's products.
I'm fairly sure that the legality focuses more on the sale, and production, of fake goods, rather than the purchase, so you then have a situation where neither the purchaser nor the seller are breaking any domestic law.
The recasts are not counterfeit (counterfeiting requires an intent to deceive - to pass the fake off as genuine, any recasters I've seen make no secret of the fact that their product isn't the real deal, and charge a price commensurate with that) nor are they theft (theft requires removal of property) so there is no criminal element to what recasters are doing (within this context) which makes law enforcement disinterested, and therefore it boils down to individual parties and how motivated they are to defend themselves.
I don't think it's coincidence that GW essentially got beaten up in the courts in the Chapterhouse case, then went after the soft target of some of the higher profile, easier to find, recasters, but while the Chinese government seems to be actively protecting this sort of industry, it is only a short time before it all pops back up again.
This is more the heart of what I was getting at. I know GW went after Chapterhouse, but do they ever go after the customers or mainly just the recasters? I don't think it took terribly long for them to pop back up either.
Verviedi wrote: I'm pretty sure this thread is heresy. The mods don't like recasting.
They don't like recasters named and information which could lead a curious person to a recasting site to be shared, talking about the issue in general terms has been ok in the past (until people get upset and start flaming at least.)
IP law differs from country to country, hence in some places (such as China) it is legal to reproduce (or, I suspect the legal system is actively disinterested in prosecuting anyone) other company's products.
I'm fairly sure that the legality focuses more on the sale, and production, of fake goods, rather than the purchase, so you then have a situation where neither the purchaser nor the seller are breaking any domestic law.
The recasts are not counterfeit (counterfeiting requires an intent to deceive - to pass the fake off as genuine, any recasters I've seen make no secret of the fact that their product isn't the real deal, and charge a price commensurate with that) nor are they theft (theft requires removal of property) so there is no criminal element to what recasters are doing (within this context) which makes law enforcement disinterested, and therefore it boils down to individual parties and how motivated they are to defend themselves.
I don't think it's coincidence that GW essentially got beaten up in the courts in the Chapterhouse case, then went after the soft target of some of the higher profile, easier to find, recasters, but while the Chinese government seems to be actively protecting this sort of industry, it is only a short time before it all pops back up again.
This is more the heart of what I was getting at. I know GW went after Chapterhouse, but do they ever go after the customers or mainly just the recasters? I don't think it took terribly long for them to pop back up either.
AFAIK you break no laws by purchasing recasts, but even then, it wouldn't be worth their while to pursue them, the cost for prosecuting one consumer would be many times greater than the money they may claim to have lost in sales (which is a slippery thing to prove anyway, as someone may purchase a fake who has no, and would never have had any, intention to buy the real thing.
So, go right ahead and place your order, you're safe.
That's cool, as they all use paypal or some other escrow scheme.
I use a site commonly used by recasters all the time (to make legitimate purchases) and I genuinely feel the checks and balances they have in place are better than EBay (the seller doesn't get a penny of your money until you sign off on an order that you have both received it and are happy with the quality - nothing motivates a seller more than not having your cash til you're happy) and Paypal's buyer protection is obviously well understood.
DarkLink wrote: Plus, it's not really illegal in Russia or China. No one cares what some other country's laws are.
Not exactly. It's technically illegal in those countries, but enforcement is patchy to nonexistent.
It might be legal in China though. IIRC (I read a few years back about some guys who managed to register copyright for IPhone 5 in China before Apple) the Chinese law requires you to specifically register your copyright claim with them. Even if you do own the copyright to something worldwide, as long as you haven't registered it in China specifically, it's possible for somebody else to do it and manufacture said stuff legally there.
LordBlades wrote: [... the Chinese law requires you to specifically register your copyright claim with them.
Not since 1992.
While China isn't a Berne signatory, their equivalent law bestows the same rights to international copyright holders. Registration isn't required, just encouraged for ease of identification.
IP law differs from country to country, hence in some places (such as China) it is legal to reproduce (or, I suspect the legal system is actively disinterested in prosecuting anyone) other company's products.
I'm fairly sure that the legality focuses more on the sale, and production, of fake goods, rather than the purchase, so you then have a situation where neither the purchaser nor the seller are breaking any domestic law.
The recasts are not counterfeit (counterfeiting requires an intent to deceive - to pass the fake off as genuine, any recasters I've seen make no secret of the fact that their product isn't the real deal, and charge a price commensurate with that) nor are they theft (theft requires removal of property) so there is no criminal element to what recasters are doing (within this context) which makes law enforcement disinterested, and therefore it boils down to individual parties and how motivated they are to defend themselves.
I don't think it's coincidence that GW essentially got beaten up in the courts in the Chapterhouse case, then went after the soft target of some of the higher profile, easier to find, recasters, but while the Chinese government seems to be actively protecting this sort of industry, it is only a short time before it all pops back up again.
This is more the heart of what I was getting at. I know GW went after Chapterhouse, but do they ever go after the customers or mainly just the recasters? I don't think it took terribly long for them to pop back up either.
AFAIK you break no laws by purchasing recasts, but even then, it wouldn't be worth their while to pursue them, the cost for prosecuting one consumer would be many times greater than the money they may claim to have lost in sales (which is a slippery thing to prove anyway, as someone may purchase a fake who has no, and would never have had any, intention to buy the real thing.
So, go right ahead and place your order, you're safe.
Sir, I have no idea what you are talking about. I say good day to thee!
DarkLink wrote: Plus, it's not really illegal in Russia or China.
It's technically illegal in those countries, but enforcement is patchy to nonexistent.
They have more important things to worry about than some insignificant foreign company losing a few dollars. Counterfeit cigarrettes for example, a huge criminal industry. A big and influential brand loses both money and reputation, the state loses out on taxes. The FW recaster is small change compared to that, and he might even pay sales taxes if he sells through a well-run shopping hub.
LordBlades wrote: [... the Chinese law requires you to specifically register your copyright claim with them.
Not since 1992.
While China isn't a Berne signatory, their equivalent law bestows the same rights to international copyright holders. Registration isn't required, just encouraged for ease of identification.
Yeah, I was misinformed, either by misremembering what I read or by reading false stuff.
In the UK, I'm sure the Trading Standards teams would go after recasters as a counterfeiting operation.
They would class them as Adidas boots, or Gucci handbags, etc.
Recasters aren't stood at car-boot sales though, so TS won't usually get involved. Customs might, if they know what to look for.
Since joining this hobby in 2011, I've seen the same Chinese recasters change sites after being taken down and resume business, with the only problem being delays in shipping due to high demand, and of course the variable quality. The sites going down takes a while for GW to do but does happen occasionally. The people behind it don't seem to be punished as they spring back up, within days from what I've seen.
Criminal liability
Under the Trade Marks Act 1995, it is an offence to:
...
sell, possess, distribute or import a good, knowing that the trade mark has been falsified or removed
The Copyright Act 1968 similarly provides for criminal sanctions. Under this Act it is an offence to:
knowingly import, possess, sell, distribute or commercially deal with an infringing copy
Proving a person knows that the website they bought from was infringing would be pretty hard in the case of 40k models though imo so worst case in Aus would likely be confiscation - though I haven't heard of a single case of it. Shipments of recasts don't look dissimilar to kickstarter shipments.
In the UK its possible imports, if recognized as counterfeit goods to be seized by customs. Same situation as trying to avoid VAT and /or duty charges (Which is also what you do when buying recasts from China... thats why they mark them as gifts or worth less than £20, to bypass paying tax)
But they are on the look out for clothes / bags / electronics. Not resin toys. Should GW contact HMRC in the UK and say they suspect parcels from specific business contain items infringing on their IP, Customs can then detain imports from that business.
There is always a risk, no matter how small you may never get items you've paid for, and/ or be slammed with a penalty for avoiding tax.
I've only seen it once with someone who bought a dodgy £30 football shirt from the USA. VAT was not declared or payed for, goods were checked, he had to pay £60 to HMRC. Just how it goes.
quite easily, given you have a duty to know who you're buying from, and the fairly obvious case that buying from a Chinese guy stating theyre a recast doesnt help your credibility in saying you didnt know
jreilly89 wrote: I know GW is still trying to shut them down, but how are recast sites legal? Does GW try to prosecute buyers or only the sites that sell them?
Recast sites are perfectly legal, because recasting is not a crime under many legal systems.
Why is that ? Because not everyone agrees that the world is better with a patent system that prevents anyone but the highest bidder to compete.
However, those sites still end up being shut down, because money closes doors just as it opens doors, and the websites are easy targets.
As a Western World Citizen, you could only buy them legally if you didn't know that they were recasts.
Which is possible as long as your road to the paypal button does not include any explicit or strongly implicit mention of copyright infringement.
Interestingly enough, for historical figures, it was pretty much the norm to recast your own lead soldiers afaik.
That was about twenty+ years ago, before all the IP bs though.
I would like to know if Forgeworld (GW) is aware of how much MORE money they'd make if they reduced their prices by 25-30%. Perhaps they don't want to make more money? Could they not turn a profit? The demand for these models is definitely there, but at a price lower than FW seems willing (or able) to set.
I would love to buy authentic FW models from the company that did the original sculpts. I don't make that kind of money. /shrug
nosferatu1001 wrote: quite easily, given you have a duty to know who you're buying from, and the fairly obvious case that buying from a Chinese guy stating theyre a recast doesnt help your credibility in saying you didnt know
I meant the slighty less obvious cases ofc.
Like how buying an alternate sculpt of an 'eldar farseer with Shuriken Pistol and Power Sword for use with WH40k' off some random site is copyright infringement but buying the exact same model as 'space elf with laser pistol and sword' isn't.
Or let's say you find on an auction site a dude selling Warhounds for 10$. It's most likely a recast, but can it be proven yo knew it was a recast and not just a very good deal from a clueless seller?
nosferatu1001 wrote: quite easily, given you have a duty to know who you're buying from,
You do?
I'm interested to know where you get that from?
Is it a good idea to know where you're buying from, especially in an environment where you aren't dealing with a person face-to-face and are separated by thousands of miles? Absolutely. But a duty? Sounds a bit excessive to me.
and the fairly obvious case that buying from a Chinese guy stating theyre a recast doesnt help your credibility in saying you didnt know
Except, AFAIK, it isn't breaking the law to purchase recasts, whether you know they are or no, so this is utterly redundant.
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DCannon4Life wrote: I would like to know if Forgeworld (GW) is aware of how much MORE money they'd make if they reduced their prices by 25-30%. Perhaps they don't want to make more money? Could they not turn a profit? The demand for these models is definitely there, but at a price lower than FW seems willing (or able) to set.
I would love to buy authentic FW models from the company that did the original sculpts. I don't make that kind of money. /shrug
Yes, there is a magic point where revenue is maximised, but it isn't always at the highest price per unit, as each price increase will net you fewer sales beyond a certain point. That has to be traded off against cost of production (materials, labour etc..)
If, for instance, a 30% drop in RRP generated a 75% increase in sales, then it would seem to be a good idea, but that assumes production costs are linear. If they aren't (or don't drop significantly beyond a certain volume) then it can mean you're working a lot harder for no significant gain. Then it becomes a judgment call as to whether it is worth all the extra effort.
That said, I really don't see how that would apply to what is essentially a pretty traditional manufacturing set up like FW, as, assuming they didn't massively over invest in production and just did enough extra to keep pace with demand, the only possible disproportionate cost increase in costs would probably be increased wear and tear on moulds, and I somehow doubt the cost of that couldn't be absorbed easily by the increased income.
Personally, I think the biggest barrier to a price drop (assuming the numbers stack up were it to happen) is the GW attitude that they sell premium products at premium prices, and to charge less somehow devalues their brand (and apparently that's more important than making more cash.)
What I would be interested in is a comparison between the turnovers of the recast industry and FW themselves, because FW and BL combined don't generate a significant amount of GW's revenue (~10% IIRC) so it doesn't seem beyond plausible that FW aren't the biggest sellers of FW products on the planet!
DCannon4Life wrote: I would like to know if Forgeworld (GW) is aware of how much MORE money they'd make if they reduced their prices by 25-30%. Perhaps they don't want to make more money? Could they not turn a profit? The demand for these models is definitely there, but at a price lower than FW seems willing (or able) to set.
I would love to buy authentic FW models from the company that did the original sculpts. I don't make that kind of money. /shrug
They are aware, and they're also aware of the cost reduction and quality increase they would get from switching to chinese suppliers - some recasters really put FW to shame.
Anyway, GW is aware of that, they've been working on progressively bringing the FW stuff under the same brand in order to unify the game system, it's a great success so far and the nerf to strength D has made things like Revenant Titans or dual turbolaser warhounds rather tame.
And they have a plan to bring FW even closer in terms of rules, production (finecast+FW would be a joint production unit) and sales channels.
One thing to not underestimate is how much the chinese recasters have helped GW make FW mainstream / accepted.
There would be at least 50% less titans and super heavies in play if the only way to get them was being gouged by ForgeWorld.
Azreal13 wrote: Except, AFAIK, it isn't breaking the law to purchase recasts, whether you know they are or no, so this is utterly redundant.
Recasts are unofficial counterfeits, and are either sold as the originals, or as recasts.
Knockoffs are dodgy, and are treated by the law as such.
Around here, that gets treated as 'receiving stolen goods'.
There's a big thick line between recasting for personal use, and selling recasts.
Probably because it's impossible to enforce such laws and there are bigger things to worry about.
When customs sees a 5 by 5 by 5 box filled with plasic and it's marked as "Toys $15,-" then nobody is going to care.
Especially not if the next case contains a thousand fake brand-sunglasses that are going to be sold on the street.
Perhaps GW will train dogs to sniff out recasts and donate them to each airport.
Until then they can probably never stop recasting.
curran12 wrote: They are in other countries, countries where it is very difficult to just walk up and say "hey they are stealing our copyright".
This is exactly true. Most of the recasts that are made are from Russia or China, and China especially doesn't give a about copyright in other countries. These sites do eventually get shut down, however.
EDIT: And I'm not sure how allowed talk about recasters in on Dakka. I'm sure the talk about it is fine, but any links to recasters is prohibited.
They aren't "officially" supported. of course, not the " " around " officially wink wink nudge nudge..
Links are definately a no no and a thread was closed a few days ago because the name of a site was used (giving the names of the sites could be construed as advertising for them). But the thread was closed because of it but the name of the site was not removed. of course in order to keep up the pretense, I'm sure now someone will make the obligatory statement of not condoning it un-officially either in order to maintain appearances. No one will be fooled of course. lol Most gaming sites just forbids all public discussion of them. My suggestion for the OP is if your interested, your best bet is to use PM to talk to those in the know here who could give you more information.
Azreal13 wrote: Except, AFAIK, it isn't breaking the law to purchase recasts, whether you know they are or no, so this is utterly redundant.
Recasts are unofficial counterfeits, and are either sold as the originals, or as recasts.
Knockoffs are dodgy, and are treated by the law as such.
Around here, that gets treated as 'receiving stolen goods'.
There's a big thick line between recasting for personal use, and selling recasts.
Recasts aren't stolen, there's a big thick line between infringing on someone's IP (a civil law) and stealing something (a criminal one.) As recasts aren't stolen, I can't see how a prosecution for receiving stolen goods could be made to stick?
EDIT
Out of curiosity, I had a quick google, and this is what Wiki says about handling stolen goods (receiving is an outdated term and has been replaced by a new law)
Handling stolen goods is the name of a statutory offence in England and Wales and Northern Ireland. It takes place after a theft or other dishonest acquisition is completed and may be committed by a fence or other person who helps the thief to realise the value of the stolen goods. It replaces the offence of receiving stolen goods under section 33 of the Larceny Act 1916.
So I guess "dishonest acquisition" may possibly fit, but I have always assumed that the originals are acquired by legitimate means, and it would also be difficult to argue that buying a recast somehow aids the realisation of the value of stolen goods when no theft has, in fact, taken place.
One for the legal minds out there, if they're reading.
END EDIT
Let's make a distinction here, any laws that are broken in the sale or supply of recast miniatures are minor ones, in the grand scheme (I know, technically any law is as valid as another in terms of whether one should adhere to it or not, but in reality law enforcement agencies are much more interested in murder or drug smuggling than illegal parking or downloading mp3s without permission) and realistically a fine for a purchaser of such would be the absolute worst case they could expect - they're not getting clapped in irons and put in the stocks or sent to prison for years.
If one wishes to make a moral, rather than legal, argument out of it, then things are a lot less clear cut.
Out of curiosity, I had a quick google, and this is what Wiki says about handling stolen goods (receiving is an outdated term and has been replaced by a new law)
Handling stolen goods is the name of a statutory offence in England and Wales and Northern Ireland. It takes place after a theft or other dishonest acquisition is completed and may be committed by a fence or other person who helps the thief to realise the value of the stolen goods. It replaces the offence of receiving stolen goods under section 33 of the Larceny Act 1916.
So I guess "dishonest acquisition" may possibly fit, but I have always assumed that the originals are acquired by legitimate means, and it would also be difficult to argue that buying a recast somehow aids the realisation of the value of stolen goods when no theft has, in fact, taken place.
One for the legal minds out there, if they're reading.
It would not fit for two reasons.
The acquisition is qualified as dishonest, and the target of that acquisition is the stolen goods.
It's perfectly honest to buy something from a chinese merchant, and I doubt you're ever buying stolen goods. Since nothing has ever been stolen that would be tricky at best.
In russia it is only illegal to make recasts and sell them as GW products. It is 100% legal to sell them as what they are recasts. Same with China. Heck when my dad was in HK last year and wanted to buy stuff he couldn't get from an official sony store there, the clerks there pointed him to where he can buy the stuff they don't have. Both store were almost door to door. And no one seemed to have problems with it.
Makumba wrote: In russia it is only illegal to make recasts and sell them as GW products. It is 100% legal to sell them as what they are recasts. Same with China.
I'm pretty sure that's not true. China have agreed to the Berne Convention and subsequently introduced international copyright regulations back in 1992. There's just a complete lack of enforcement.
No, CHS is a third party manufacturer making their own original items that are compatible with GW kits, that's a totally different kettle of aquatic animals.
The crux of the legal case was GW decided to (yet again) try and intimidate a small company doing something they didn't like, but wasn't actually wrong, into going away because they didn't want to risk a massive legal bill. CHS secured free legal representation and consequently were able to call GW's bluff.
What then followed was essentially a massive implosion of GW's assertion of ownership. Around three quarters of the original claims never made it to trial, and around three quarters of those that did were found to be in favour of CHS. Of the tiny percentage of the original claims that GW did win on many felt rather arbitrary and smacked of a jury of non-experts making almost random choices.
We'll never know what would have happened if it had got to appeal, but it wouldn't be hard to make a case for those items found in favour of GW originally being overturned.
Even if you're of the opinion that CHS took some liberties with GW's stuff, the fundamental concept of making add-ons for someone else's product is perfectly legitimate and in no way similar to recasting.
DaKKaLAnce wrote: Is chapterhouse a recaster? I had no idea that there were a lot of recasters out there.
If it saves me money, then I wouldn't mind. GW and FW are over priced as it is
Chapterhouse is just a small independent miniature producer, with its own sculpts, some of which are based on GW's universe, which is borderline IP infringement but not legally enforceable.
There have always been hundreds of recasters around the world, mostly people recasting for themselves or a few of their friends.
There may not be that many directly accessible recasters though, as Zhanchui is behind most of the Aliexpress / taobao / yoymart ones for example.
The savings are not really linear though, and most recasters have horrible quality compared to GW styrene, implying lots of cleanup and fixing.
For example, most of the GW stuff is about 50% off, but in crappy resin instead of plastic, with lots more work to clean it off.
You're better off buying second hand and cleaning it up, it takes less time, or just buy it new at 20% off and resell some bits and whatnot.
For the FW stuff, a lot of it is really expensive, 50% off the FW price, but it's more priced based on work, i.e. simpler kits with less resin in them will cost proportionally less, making some chinese recasts up to 80% off as in the rare case of the Revenant Titan that FW sells for way too much compared to the kit's production cost.
Overall, I would say that unless you find a really good recaster, it's just not worth the hassle and health hazard if you make more than ten bucks an hour.
I don't know what is the big deal about this recasters.In my job we are pretty aware that whenever we develop some improvement or new product in one year there will be a Chinese version of it. Real companies fight it by providing high quality plus good costumer service and warranty at a competitive cost. What do you think IKEA and ZARA do? They copy designs from other brands and produce them in china with minimal cost, low qualityt materials and bring them here. Why is it much more despicable to buy from a recaster than to buy from IKEA?
GW can continue his legal crusade as long as it wants but the real solution would be adjusting its prices to real value of their product and obviously provide a higher standard of quality. Because I have some failcasts that makes me wonder if GW actually buys from recasters and then sells them to us.
Azreal13 wrote: IP law differs from country to country, hence in some places (such as China) it is legal to reproduce (or, I suspect the legal system is actively disinterested in prosecuting anyone) other company's products.
I hear this all the time and it just ain't true. Patents, copyrights and trademarks are all governed by international treaties which require countries to recognize each other's IP protection.
On paper, China has very strict IP laws.
However they are very slective in enforcement.
For a Chinese local official the biggest item on the scorecard is economic development, so they have little to no incentive to shut down workshops that are pirating clothes, toys, DVDs, car parts, medicine etc. Sometimes someone will make enought noise to trigger a crackdown but generally piracy is seen as a cheap and easy way to make goods people will buy.
And honestly, there are companies that spend GW's annual turn over in a week. If Ford, or Microsoft or Apple can't eliminate piracy of their products there's no way tiny little GW will.
Recast sites are perfectly legal because recasting is not a crime under many legal systems.
Why is that ? Because not everyone agrees that the world is better with a patent system that prevents anyone but the highest bidder to compete.
First line, untrue. Recasting is illegal in the relevant countries, although as pointed out, the law isn't enforced.
Second line is irrelevant. We're talking here about copyright, not about patents, copyright that was brought into law by hard-working artists, like William Hogarth, who didn't want their work ripped off.
Bizarre that people would want to deny them that, but I am aware some people do, thinking that it is somehow sticking it to the corporations.
Recast sites are perfectly legal because recasting is not a crime under many legal systems.
Why is that ? Because not everyone agrees that the world is better with a patent system that prevents anyone but the highest bidder to compete.
First line, untrue. Recasting is illegal in the relevant countries, although as pointed out, the law isn't enforced.
Second line is irrelevant. We're talking here about copyright, not about patents, copyright that was brought into law by hard-working artists, like William Hogarth, who didn't want their work ripped off.
Bizarre that people would want to deny them that, but I am aware some people do, thinking that it is somehow sticking it to the corporations.
Guess what my friend, none of what I create and invent can be protected, so I guess I don't see why some other people's creations should be protected.
First line may be untrue, but it's the philosophy behind all that. Culturally, copyright is a joke to many non-western countries.
I believe if a person takes the time, money, effort and imagination to build something they alone have the right to reap the rewards.Others can take that idea and build on it, others can make better versions or build their own empires off their own back. CW promotes competition and furthers creativity and diversifies the market.
But that's not re casters are doing. They are not creating, they are not improving, they are duplicating someones work and selling it. They can only make money selling it because the creators took the time and effort to build the company, to work on the product - it took many years for GW to become what it is today.
If anyone goes out and creates their own miniatures game with their own creations power to them.
Creating ones where the intention is to be compatible with the system, or simple recasting, is profiteering from someone else work. Issue with recasting is it is so easy. Its not like you can mass reproduce exact copies of Apple products to sell or such things. Low brand rip offs yes, but not exact duplicates.
Of course they can offer it at a lower price at the end of the day. All they did was buy one model, some mould components and some resin. They didn't invest thousands in starting the company, decades in time, hiring people, sculptors, marketing, shop fronts continued projects and project support, business taxes down to the office Christmas party, a singular GW's, or indeed any independent model company produced model costs much more to make than a re casters cast.
Recast sites are perfectly legal because recasting is not a crime under many legal systems.
Why is that ? Because not everyone agrees that the world is better with a patent system that prevents anyone but the highest bidder to compete.
First line, untrue. Recasting is illegal in the relevant countries, although as pointed out, the law isn't enforced.
Second line is irrelevant. We're talking here about copyright, not about patents, copyright that was brought into law by hard-working artists, like William Hogarth, who didn't want their work ripped off.
Bizarre that people would want to deny them that, but I am aware some people do, thinking that it is somehow sticking it to the corporations.
Guess what my friend, none of what I create and invent can be protected, so I guess I don't see why some other people's creations should be protected.
First line may be untrue, but it's the philosophy behind all that. Culturally, copyright is a joke to many non-western countries.
You're the most relentlessly incorrect person I've ever met.
Nem wrote: I believe if a person takes the time, money, effort and imagination to build something they alone have the right to reap the rewards.Others can take that idea and build on it, others can make better versions or build their own empires off their own back. CW promotes competition and furthers creativity and diversifies the market.
Really, last I checked they relentlessly hunted down anyone who dared make anything vaguely connected to Warhammer and attempted to eradicate them. Up until CHS they got away with it too. GW do not promote competition, further creativity or diversification, they wish total and complete control of the entire market and are willing to destroy anything that they perceive as a threat to that.
They even tried to claim ownership of "halberd" for feths sake.
But that's not re casters are doing. They are not creating, they are not improving, they are duplicating someones work and selling it. They can only make money selling it because the creators took the time and effort to build the company, to work on the product - it took many years for GW to become what it is today.
Personally, my take on what GW is today is a wobbly, financially uncertain company that seems to be hopelessly out of touch with a significant part of it's customer base and a publicly declared disinterest in doing anything about it. They also seem convinced that they are a miniatures company and not a games company and a premium brand, none of which is supported by anything but their own idea of that's how they want to be.
So, yes, I agree, if recasters were damaging the multitude of small companies and one man studios that turn out some of the frankly staggering works we see released weekly they would deserve unpleasant things to happen to their sensitive areas, but as it stands, they're damaging the massively dominant incumbent who's own mismanagement has created the space the recasters operate in, and who's ability to minimise that space remains firmly in their own hands. Neither are poor starving artists negatively impacted, as all GW designers are salaried, and if their creation sold in the millions, they wouldn't see an extra penny.
If anyone goes out and creates their own miniatures game with their own creations power to them.
Creating ones where the intention is to be compatible with the system, or simple recasting, is profiteering from someone else work. Issue with recasting is it is so easy. Its not like you can mass reproduce exact copies of Apple products to sell or such things. Low brand rip offs yes, but not exact duplicates.
Do you know why we don't see exact copies of Apple products for less? Because they use intrinsically higher quality components at a higher cost, so while they are still selling at a substantial mark up, they are at least doing something to justify the cost and make them harder to reproduce. GW does nothing to justify their price premium over other similar products. When a recaster can, without access to the master model, still (if reports on here can be believed) produce a better quality product than the original producer, you've got a problem. If another, smaller, company can produce a similar, or even superior, quality product for substantially less legitimately, you've got a problem.
GW currently have both these problems, and, again, have (or had, the next financial report should be out next week) the resources to address this.
Of course they can offer it at a lower price at the end of the day. All they did was buy one model, some mould components and some resin. They didn't invest thousands in starting the company, decades in time, hiring people, sculptors, marketing, shop fronts continued projects and project support, business taxes down to the office Christmas party, a singular GW's, or indeed any independent model company produced model costs much more to make than a re casters cast.
You're absolutely correct, but as I've already mentioned, it is GW themselves that have created the space for recasters to operate. Their average margin on their products is ~75%. That is the difference between RRP and cost of production. The reason GW are liable for all those shop fronts, staff, office parties etc is because they chose to be. If GW are now so bloated that they cannot afford to charge a competitive price for their product, and as a consequence are overcharging so much that recasters can charge half (or less in some cases) and still make enough profit to be worthwhile is solely a consequence of bad decisions GW has made.
Couple that with the ill feeling GW has managed to cultivate and the "feth you GW" factor alongside substantial discounts has to be a powerful attractant for many.
Azreal13 wrote: Personally, my take on what GW is today is a wobbly, financially uncertain company that seems to be hopelessly out of touch with a significant part of it's customer base and a publicly declared disinterest in doing anything about it. They also seem convinced that they are a miniatures company and not a games company and a premium brand, none of which is supported by anything but their own idea of that's how they want to be.
So, yes, I agree, if recasters were damaging the multitude of small companies and one man studios that turn out some of the frankly staggering works we see released weekly they would deserve unpleasant things to happen to their sensitive areas, but as it stands, they're damaging the massively dominant incumbent who's own mismanagement has created the space the recasters operate in, and who's ability to minimise that space remains firmly in their own hands. Neither are poor starving artists negatively impacted, as all GW designers are salaried, and if their creation sold in the millions, they wouldn't see an extra penny.
My take, if the money people spent on recasters actually went to development of non-GW games I might agree with you, but instead it just goes to artistic leeches. It's disingenuous to think GW don't bring anything to the table, a quick estimate is that they have around 200 plastic kits in 40k alone. That's an extremely well supported universe that I believe is unmatched by it's competitors.
You might not agree with GW's business practices, but the fact of the matter is they are still contributing to wargaming, recasters are not. If you don't like GW's business practices it should not be recasters filling the void, it should be other companies that are also contributing to gaming.
As for supporting the artist, I think being selective is a slippery slope. The artists may be salaried, but their livelihood is still dependant on the strength of the company, if the company is doing well they can request raises or a stake in the company, if the company does poorly then they could lose their jobs. If you don't like what the artist is producing or how the company presents itself, then I feel you should just not buy what they produce at all.
It's not up to the customer to feel obliged to prop up a company that is making bad decisions, but I think the customer should most certainly feel obliged to give their gaming money to people who are actually supporting gaming rather than leeching off it. I'm aware copying and being against copying is a cultural thing... but I think the better culture is the one that supports the artists and companies who are creating the work they desire.
I think our culture has become one of self entitlement, we talk about how the big bad company is big and bad but at the end of the day we still want what they produce so we take it anyway.
Personally, yes, I agree, I believe every £1 spent with the competition is £2 GW have lost, and is a far more effective method of smacking GW over the nose with a rolled up fiscal newspaper. Which is why I've largely resisted the urge to buy recasts and sought out alternate models from third parties as much as possible - I still get to 40K (although my motivation to do so frequently drops away to nothing for weeks or months at a time) but I support GW as little as possible.
But again, it remains solely within GW's power to eviscerate the recast industry, just as it does the third party add on culture. Not by chasing legal shadows and gaking millions pursuing court cases they can't win, but simply by putting out quality products competitively priced.
Azreal13 wrote: Personally, yes, I agree, I believe every £1 spent with the competition is £2 GW have lost, and is a far more effective method of smacking GW over the nose with a rolled up fiscal newspaper. Which is why I've largely resisted the urge to buy recasts and sought out alternate models from third parties as much as possible - I still get to 40K (although my motivation to do so frequently drops away to nothing for weeks or months at a time) but I support GW as little as possible.
But again, it remains solely within GW's power to eviscerate the recast industry, just as it does the third party add on culture. Not by chasing legal shadows and gaking millions pursuing court cases they can't win, but simply by putting out quality products competitively priced.
Azreal13 wrote: But again, it remains solely within GW's power to eviscerate the recast industry, just as it does the third party add on culture. Not by chasing legal shadows and gaking millions pursuing court cases they can't win, but simply by putting out quality products competitively priced.
I don't think this is at all true. GW is never going to be able to compete with Chinese slave labor making recasts of their products, so as long as they have enough market share for it to be worth recasting their stuff there will be recasters. The only way the recasters will disappear is if the market fragments so much that a recaster can't guarantee that enough customers exist to buy their entire stock.
(Of course I don't disagree at all about the stupidity of GW spending obscene amounts of money fighting every random person who sells their own version of space marine shoulder pads, but that's a separate issue.)
If GW were to sell their products closer to what it costs, the price difference between the two would be slight enough that most people would pay the pennies extra for the original thing.
Your right, there would still be a market for knockoffs and there would still be sellers of knockoffs, but the numbers would be much lower. (Not to mention GW making a lot more $ through the surge of sales that would more than make up for the lower prices).
Azreal13 wrote: But again, it remains solely within GW's power to eviscerate the recast industry, just as it does the third party add on culture. Not by chasing legal shadows and gaking millions pursuing court cases they can't win, but simply by putting out quality products competitively priced.
I don't think this is at all true. GW is never going to be able to compete with Chinese slave labor making recasts of their products, so as long as they have enough market share for it to be worth recasting their stuff there will be recasters. The only way the recasters will disappear is if the market fragments so much that a recaster can't guarantee that enough customers exist to buy their entire stock.
(Of course I don't disagree at all about the stupidity of GW spending obscene amounts of money fighting every random person who sells their own version of space marine shoulder pads, but that's a separate issue.)
Of course it's true, the less GW/FW charge, the less the recasters are able to charge. Sure, they can probably still turn a profit on a very small percentage of RRP, but there's a point where it ceases to be worth the time and effort.
Plus you have to account for the fact that most people, one or two counter culture douchebags "sticking it to the man" aside, would rather have the genuine product if they could, and if that means paying a 100% premium, the temptation to order recasts is much stronger. If that premium reduces (and there's no point in really debating a % here, different people will have different tipping points, it's the sellers job to find that point for the majority) then more people will be inclined to buy genuine, even if it still carries a premium.
People are willing to pay a premium for things if they see a reason to do so, currently GW aren't providing a compelling reason.
I do wonder how much lower recasters could go on their prices though. It does seem like much of the stuff is priced vs GW's prices anyway, so perhaps if GW lowered their prices the recasters might be able to lower their own prices to match.
Maybe, but I've seen Cerastus chassis Knights on sale for ~£30.
When you consider there is still time (and contrary to what Peregrine might think, I don't think there's factories full of children churning this stuff out, I heard once that more than one recaster is a Westerner out there supplementing their income in their spare time, don't know the truth of that,) moulds and material to cover, plus often free shipping, and a profit, I can't imagine there's a lot left to trim.
That might be me thinking like a Westerner with a Westerner's living costs though.
.... that is exactly what that is. The Chinese laborer, even if it's not sweatshop labor, is costing the recaster pennies compared to the domestic labor costs for GW.
A Recaster also doesn't require much overhead in terms of laborforce... most of the work is done by fairly simple machines (the molds and casters and such). So, if GW slashed their prices by half, a recaster could likely do the same. Would the recaster be making as much profit as they were? No, of course not. Would they still be making a profit? Most certainly.
I did also make the point that a profit isn't necessarily enough to make it worth the hassle, especially if, in this hypothetical situation, the reduced prices of genuine goods also increase the number of people choosing to buy them over recasts.
So we have a shrinking market at lower margins - would there still be a market? Probably, but it would atrophy pretty markedly in short order IMO.
The recasters ARE taking a chance. Only the most desperate would do it if the profits werent enough. If they are able to make more money turning an honest dollar for little work, they will be less likely to do more work for less $.
True, it would still happen. Heck, even if the prices for recasts were HIGHER than GW prices, there would still be a business for it in certain parts of the world where getting honest stuff reliably is an issue.
The point is, it would put a huge dent in it.
Azreal13 wrote: Of course it's true, the less GW/FW charge, the less the recasters are able to charge. Sure, they can probably still turn a profit on a very small percentage of RRP, but there's a point where it ceases to be worth the time and effort.
But then is GW going to make much of a profit? After all, their costs of designing, manufacturing, and selling those kits is going to be higher than the recaster's, so if GW cuts their prices to the point that the recaster can't make much money their next financial report is going to be a disaster. And what would be the point? GW's primary market is people who aren't going to even know that recasts exist, I can't imagine they're losing so much money to recasters that putting them out of business would be worth destroying their own profit margins.
People are willing to pay a premium for things if they see a reason to do so, currently GW aren't providing a compelling reason.
The countless people who pirate movies/music/games/etc just because they can would disagree with you. I suppose there are a few people who buy recasts to make some kind of ideological statement about how fair GW's prices are, but are they really that common compared to the people who only care about getting the cheapest possible price regardless of how ethical it is?
insaniak wrote: The people who still buy movies/music/games/etc wouldn't.
But that's the point, you have two main groups:
1) People who buy legal movies/music/games/etc when they want them, and don't get them at all if they feel the price/quality/whatever isn't acceptable.
2) People who pirate everything regardless of the price just because they can.
The claim was that there's a meaningful third group, people who currently pirate everything but would eagerly switch to being honest customers if only the prices were a bit lower. And I think the people talking about how they'd become honest customers are mostly just making excuses for pirating everything and have no desire at all to buy anything honestly.
Those who pirate media that they wouldn't pay for aren't going to be paying for it either way, so really aren't worth worrying about.
Exactly! GW would be insane to lower their prices and cripple their profit margins to compete with recasters when the people buying recasts (and downloading pdfs of books, etc) aren't going to buy honestly no matter how cheap GW gets.
Peregrine wrote: But that's the point, you have two main groups:
1) People who buy legal movies/music/games/etc when they want them, and don't get them at all if they feel the price/quality/whatever isn't acceptable.
2) People who pirate everything regardless of the price just because they can.
The claim was that there's a meaningful third group, people who currently pirate everything but would eagerly switch to being honest customers if only the prices were a bit lower.
I know several people myself who used to pirate all of their music who went 'legit' as soon as it became possible to download legitimate versions at a reasonable price. So I would agree with that claim.
How much of the overall they actually make up is anyone's guess, but they're out there.
Exactly! GW would be insane to lower their prices and cripple their profit margins to compete with recasters when the people buying recasts (and downloading pdfs of books, etc) aren't going to buy honestly no matter how cheap GW gets.
Only if you discount that third group.
From my experience, most people would prefer to have legit stuff... it just has to seem like good value to them. Those who say that they would willingly pay if the price was right quite often do actually mean it.
lowering prices means more sales. Some might call it a wash but when the lower prices still allow a profit margin that would sustain the company after all costs and still have a profit (IF the sales remained the same) would put them on a par with the recasters.
However, when the lower prices would increase the sales exponentially (enough to bring about a company profit margin that is double or more than it would be with the higher prices.......
No one ever accused them of having common sense. lol
i have only heard bad things about recasts. mould lines that are off, more pits than failcast, poor customer service....and thats without even considering the legal/moral issues. Not going to argue those because I dont have information on the legal and the morals of others aint none of my business, I worry bout my own and keeping mine to my standards. Others can do the same with theirs.
Personally, I would rather buy the real thing. Since the prices are so high, I go without if I cant afford it or find it discounted/used.
Assuming the 3rd group doesn't exist (people who buy recasts but would buy GW if they felt was worth it), why are recasts bad then? They're not stealing away customers (in absence of the aforementioned group all the remaining recast buyers wouldn't buy GW anyway) and it's helping increase awareness of the hibby (since now there's both recast and GW guys playing.
Personally I feel the 3rd group is quite numerous, at least in certain environments.
I grew up in a developing country, and as teemagers me&my friends pirated games and music because our families couldn't afford them or simply the notion of paying 40-50€ for a game was alien to our parents' culture and way of life. Later on we had availability issues. We pirated our first D&D books because nobody imported them here back then and most online shops would either not ship to us (due to rampant fraud) or offer no guarantees (and postal service was so bad there was a decent chance your order would just vanish, this is still an issue niwadays, 3 out of 10-12 Amazon orders I've placed last year vanished). Only reliable way to get books and miniatures was through trips or relatives abroad.
Now stuff is better. We earn enough to buy stuff, but if we had not become gamers as kids (and without piracy it wouldn't have happened), we wouldn't consider droppoing 500-1000€ a year on gaming stuff.
Let's face it, piracy in any field isn't going away. Even if GW managed to shut down all recasters (pure utopia) people will still be sharing 3d printable models on torrents(and quality will be getting better) and you can't shut down alternate model makers so the cheap/less fortunate will still get their fix.
Rather than invest time and effort in a futile endeavour I feel a company should focus on offering enough added value so.more and more people want the original, and even use the knock-off as free publicity
Nem wrote: I believe if a person takes the time, money, effort and imagination to build something they alone have the right to reap the rewards.
That doesn't sound like mass production to me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If prices were lowered, there would be a lot less recasting, because the relative difference would become less relevant.
What is ten bucks off if you've gotta work like crazy to use that cheap resin kit ?
BrianDavion wrote:that said, I'm not sure I'd wanna put in a credit card order with a recaster
Many of my friends have recasts. They offer up their credit card because the difference is that an imperial knight can be had for $30 **including shipping**, so they figure, "what's there to lose?" If they're happy with the first one, they buy a couple more, etc. I can attest to the quality remarkably good (often, indistinguishable).
Personally, the primary reason that I buy originals is that I wish to support the artists who create the work. After all, if they don't sell their work, they don't get to eat, they find new jobs, and then I have less new toys to play with.
Skinnereal wrote:
Azreal13 wrote: Except, AFAIK, it isn't breaking the law to purchase recasts, whether you know they are or no, so this is utterly redundant.
Recasts are unofficial counterfeits, and are either sold as the originals, or as recasts.
Knockoffs are dodgy, and are treated by the law as such.
Around here, that gets treated as 'receiving stolen goods'.
There's a big thick line between recasting for personal use, and selling recasts.
I'm not really sure that I philosophically agree that there's a big difference. If I take a Revenant Titan and recast it myself so that I can have two, how is that any better or worse, than paying Joe to recast it for me? Either way, FW doesn't get the money for it, right? The only practical difference is that Joe is much better at it than me, and Joe works for $1 per hour because he's in a country where that's a generous wage.
I don't see how buying a recast is a stolen good. The recast wasn't stolen. It's a bag of sculpted resin, and the resin was legally purchased. Besides, how would any inspector type (who didn't have anything better to do) know what a bunch of bits in a bag are supposed to be? I mean, it could be a Revenant Titan, or it could be Godzilla Slayer 637 when assembled, right? The bag doesn't actually *say* Revenant Titan on it. It just has some generic description of a toy.
Peregrine wrote:
insaniak wrote: The people who still buy movies/music/games/etc wouldn't.
But that's the point, you have two main groups:
1) People who buy legal movies/music/games/etc when they want them, and don't get them at all if they feel the price/quality/whatever isn't acceptable.
2) People who pirate everything regardless of the price just because they can.
The claim was that there's a meaningful third group, people who currently pirate everything but would eagerly switch to being honest customers if only the prices were a bit lower. And I think the people talking about how they'd become honest customers are mostly just making excuses for pirating everything and have no desire at all to buy anything honestly.
Those who pirate media that they wouldn't pay for aren't going to be paying for it either way, so really aren't worth worrying about.
Exactly! GW would be insane to lower their prices and cripple their profit margins to compete with recasters when the people buying recasts (and downloading pdfs of books, etc) aren't going to buy honestly no matter how cheap GW gets.
I don't think it's a valid to compare recast miniatures with movies/music piracy. It would, however, be valid to compare pirated PDF/epub codices with legitimate digital ones.
My two bits: music/movies pirated are actually *superior* in many ways to the legitimate version. Not only do they cost nothing, but the delivery is faster than it would take to drive to a store and buy a disc or order online, commercials for TV shows are edited out, media players can be superior to PVRs and bluray players, and of course, the big one: you can actually get pirated content before it's available legitimately. In other words, there are reasons to pirate beyond price.
In terms of recasts, there is nothing superior about recasts except price. The recasts aren't free, and they have to ship, usually by very slow post, from some developing country far, far away. If the recasts weren't cheaper, nobody would ever buy them.
I don't think it's possible for FW/GW to lower their prices to compete with recasters, because they'd never be able to afford to pay sculptors to make new models. The recasts of popular large models can be *insanely* cheap.
Azreal13 wrote: Of course it's true, the less GW/FW charge, the less the recasters are able to charge. Sure, they can probably still turn a profit on a very small percentage of RRP, but there's a point where it ceases to be worth the time and effort.
But then is GW going to make much of a profit? After all, their costs of designing, manufacturing, and selling those kits is going to be higher than the recaster's, so if GW cuts their prices to the point that the recaster can't make much money their next financial report is going to be a disaster. And what would be the point? GW's primary market is people who aren't going to even know that recasts exist, I can't imagine they're losing so much money to recasters that putting them out of business would be worth destroying their own profit margins.
We know that the cost of design and production is an average of the low 20 per cents for GW - so yes, if we ignore the millstones that GW has saddled itself with outside of making and supplying a product, there is huge space to bring their price closer to what is available. The fact that GW probably can't because of their massive cost base is a big problem for them, and, from my perspective, is the most significant reason they're struggling.
People are willing to pay a premium for things if they see a reason to do so, currently GW aren't providing a compelling reason.
The countless people who pirate movies/music/games/etc just because they can would disagree with you. I suppose there are a few people who buy recasts to make some kind of ideological statement about how fair GW's prices are, but are they really that common compared to the people who only care about getting the cheapest possible price regardless of how ethical it is?
Actually, somebody, I don't recall who, mentioned in a previous thread of this nature that they had spoken at length with someone who recasts, and they felt that the "feth GW" factor was actually a substantial part of why people bought from them.
Certainly it seems like some of the recast kits I've seen on sale haven't offered a significant discount over what can be achieved by buying through a legitimate discounter, plus weeks of shipping time, so if these items sell sufficiently to be worth producing, then price cannot be the sole determinant of why they sell.
BrianDavion wrote:that said, I'm not sure I'd wanna put in a credit card order with a recaster
Many of my friends have recasts. They offer up their credit card because the difference is that an imperial knight can be had for $30 **including shipping**, so they figure, "what's there to lose?" If they're happy with the first one, they buy a couple more, etc. I can attest to the quality remarkably good (often, indistinguishable).
Besides, nothing's as safe as a credit card anyway, transactions can always be rolled back if they don't end up at your door.
In terms of recasts, there is nothing superior about recasts except price. The recasts aren't free, and they have to ship, usually by very slow post, from some developing country far, far away. If the recasts weren't cheaper, nobody would ever buy them.
I don't think it's possible for FW/GW to lower their prices to compete with recasters, because they'd never be able to afford to pay sculptors to make new models. The recasts of popular large models can be *insanely* cheap.
Both your statements are wrong.
Some recasters have much better quality than FW or GW finecast, none of them have any release agent to remove, some of them have better casting quality than ForgeWorld, with less warp, bubbles, sprue, mold lines, etc.
The cost of sculpting new models is overrated. A professional miniature sculptor will ask about 400 bucks for an extremely detailed (Primarch++) sculpt.
FW/GW could totally compete with recasters, but they wouldn't be able to pay business development costs and would have to make their books self-sufficient as they wouldn't be supported by miniature sales anymore.
Speaking about recasting in China - it is legal. The law really doesn't care about it.
It seems in recent months however that either GW or a larger entity have been putting pressure on 3rd party retail services like No thanks ! reds8n
Most recasts are removed from the sites if they are found, and the stores are 'closed down'.
By closed down I mean they just change name and continue their trade under a different name.
To counter this most recasters either have a catalog that you must ask for, or just post their products with a generic serial code and with pictures linked on another site so they do not get picked up.
Azreal13 wrote: Way to go dude, three pages we managed discussing the topic without mentioning any sellers by name (and consequently breaking Dakka rules!)
They are not the sellers, they are a third party. Just to be clear.
That's like blaming google for someone's website.
I won't name the actual shops because of the rules.
Dakka might be able to ease up censoring the names of the third parties in the future, because as I said recast shops are actively being targeted and removed from them.
If the rules are not to name any recaster or even the website they offer the items in, then on behalf of this topic I'd just like to chime in and say I have seen some of these knockoff products, and tbh they arent as bad as one might expect when one hears the word "chinese knockoff". For every hole you get in the resin, GW's finecast resin comes with one as well (except they offer to replace it for free if you take the model to the GW store). I have heard the recasters' resin is more brittle than GW though, so you better not drop those minis or they'll shatter.
Azreal13 wrote: They're really not, they've had a crack recently, sure, but new usernames are easy to come by.
The sites in question would have to be really motivated to remove them permanently, and it does not appear that is the case.
You are off the mark here. I don't know where you think you are getting your info from, but it is wrong.
Do you live in China? Do you view these sites daily? Because I do.
And I'm telling you they are clamping down on it. They are Motivated.
Sure new usernames are easy to come by....but the shops are unable to use the real names or pictures for the products.
Because of this they are finding it difficult to get new customers, or even get in contact with old customers, particularly foreigners (who are 99% of the market).
Most are choosing to go their own way and use their existing clients without the direct use of a 3rd party. This is good for people who know them and want to buy recasts, but bad for new customers, as they are near impossible to find.
This may change in the future, as things are always in flux here, but for the past 8 months or so the number of accessible recasting shops has been in decline.
Azreal13 wrote: They're really not, they've had a crack recently, sure, but new usernames are easy to come by.
The sites in question would have to be really motivated to remove them permanently, and it does not appear that is the case.
You are off the mark here. I don't know where you think you are getting your info from, but it is wrong.
Do you live in China?
No
Do you view these sites daily?
Yes.
And I'm telling you they are clamping down on it. They are Motivated.
Sure new usernames are easy to come by....but the shops are unable to use the real names or pictures for the products.
Because of this they are finding it difficult to get new customers, or even get in contact with old customers, particularly foreigners (who are 99% of the market).
Really?
Not seen that myself.
Most are choosing to go their own way and use their existing clients without the direct use of a 3rd party. This is good for people who know them and want to buy recasts, but bad for new customers, as they are near impossible to find.
This may change in the future, as things are always in flux here, but for the past 8 months or so the number of recasting shops has been in decline.
Certainly there are fewer sellers on one site, particularly, but not so much on the one I use and view more often.
But it takes no more than a few minutes on Google to find various 4chan threads and Reddits etc discussing all the info one needs, so perhaps there are fewer people simply tripping over them (as I did in the first instance) but the information is out there for someone who makes the effort to look, and it isn't hard to find.
If you have to use reddit or 4chan to find a page on a cataloging site, instead of the site's search engine, you can be sure that whatever they are selling is against the site's rules.
Before you could simply search for warhammer on those sites and get lots of recast hits. Now you can't. Rules have changed.
Oh, and not mentioning the shops but mentioning the third party sites? Come on, you don't see the fault in that reasoning?
As you have said, you have to check reddit or 4chan for the links. You can't find them by using the site's search engine.
I meant WRT breaking Dakka rules about recasters, but as your original comment has been moderated, I guess it doesn't matter whether you fail to see the fault or not.
You don't need reddit or 4chan to find the items, just the sites. I often browse the recasts, but as many of the keywords aren't used in the item descriptions (and haven't been for a long time from many sellers) I have found it easier to browse the categories - models made out of resin picks up a lot without a single search being needed, but key names still seem to bring up the right items (ie Warhammer, games workshop etc don't get listed a lot, but Revenant Titan still provides results)
In terms of recasts, there is nothing superior about recasts except price. The recasts aren't free, and they have to ship, usually by very slow post, from some developing country far, far away. If the recasts weren't cheaper, nobody would ever buy them.
I don't think it's possible for FW/GW to lower their prices to compete with recasters, because they'd never be able to afford to pay sculptors to make new models. The recasts of popular large models can be *insanely* cheap.
Both your statements are wrong.
Some recasters have much better quality than FW or GW finecast, none of them have any release agent to remove, some of them have better casting quality than ForgeWorld, with less warp, bubbles, sprue, mold lines, etc.
The cost of sculpting new models is overrated. A professional miniature sculptor will ask about 400 bucks for an extremely detailed (Primarch++) sculpt.
FW/GW could totally compete with recasters, but they wouldn't be able to pay business development costs and would have to make their books self-sufficient as they wouldn't be supported by miniature sales anymore.
Well, I don't see how a cast could be superior. I mean, maybe it is a nicer material to work with (I've never actually worked with one, so I can't say), but there can't be more detail than the original. The release agent is no big deal. I mean, you're going to wash all the pieces anyways, right?
How much do you think a sculptor makes as a salary? I don't think GW pays its sculptors piecework >.< Then, there's the space they take, benefits, management overhead, etc. It's a business, man.
Azreal13 wrote: I meant WRT breaking Dakka rules about recasters, but as your original comment has been moderated, I guess it doesn't matter whether you fail to see the fault or not.
You don't need reddit or 4chan to find the items, just the sites. I often browse the recasts, but as many of the keywords aren't used in the item descriptions (and haven't been for a long time from many sellers) I have found it easier to browse the categories - models made out of resin picks up a lot without a single search being needed, but key names still seem to bring up the right items (ie Warhammer, games workshop etc don't get listed a lot, but Revenant Titan still provides results)
Posting sites that allows the sale or promotion of recasts on dakka is not allowed. The original site I posted no longer allows it. So I said that they might be able to allow us to write it in the future. The logic is pretty clear. Whether you get mixed up in your own ambiguity is your own issue.
The largest 3rd party supplier in China has definitely changed policy. For example the search result for "Revenant titan" only delivery 1 result, and that is not a recast. Feel free to try it yourself.
Other sites may or may not change, as it is not clear what has brought it about, but some of them have begun to already.
Sir Arun wrote: When did GW start cracking down? I always had the impression it was around mid November onward.
Yep.
I'd say it's mostly a wasted effort. Chinese pirates are much more difficult to bully around than small western companies.
The pirates are making a living out of recasting thanks to GW's insane pricing policies anyway. GW has almost succeeded in pricing themselves out of their own market, only that way can recasters sell their recasts at 1/2 or even 1/3 of the original price and still make a profit.
Recasters sell for a price that covers material costs, finances their small home studio with 3d printer and affordable living in the Chinese market (where cost of living is cheaper)
GW sells for a price that includes all of the above (adjusted to UK cost of living) and then some to finance their IP trademarks, pay their design team who come up with the ideas for the miniatures in the first place, pay for logistics and distribution, warehouse maintenance, future investments and revenues for shareholders.
Sir Arun wrote: Recasters sell for a price that covers material costs, finances their small home studio with 3d printer and affordable living in the Chinese market (where cost of living is cheaper)
GW sells for a price that includes all of the above (adjusted to UK cost of living) and then some to finance their IP trademarks, pay their design team who come up with the ideas for the miniatures in the first place, pay for logistics and distribution, warehouse maintenance, future investments and revenues for shareholders.
All of which (except dividends and "future investments" whatever that means) is covered within cost of sales on their accounts, and is less than a quarter of their revenue.
I got a question. If it's legal in China, how do they get shut down then? I don't know remember the name but wasn't it said one or two got shut down a few weeks ago?
So how did GW actually shut them down? Why would they shut down if they didn't have to worry about anything because they were in China?
One the one side I want to see GW crash and burn into a fiery pit,
On the other these sites make it affordable to play GW games. So I'm unsure. I also find it hillarious that fanboys buy from these sites despite 'loving' GW
Azreal13 wrote: They're really not, they've had a crack recently, sure, but new usernames are easy to come by.
The sites in question would have to be really motivated to remove them permanently, and it does not appear that is the case.
You are off the mark here. I don't know where you think you are getting your info from, but it is wrong.
Do you live in China? Do you view these sites daily? Because I do.
And I'm telling you they are clamping down on it. They are Motivated.
Sure new usernames are easy to come by....but the shops are unable to use the real names or pictures for the products.
Because of this they are finding it difficult to get new customers, or even get in contact with old customers, particularly foreigners (who are 99% of the market).
Most are choosing to go their own way and use their existing clients without the direct use of a 3rd party. This is good for people who know them and want to buy recasts, but bad for new customers, as they are near impossible to find.
This may change in the future, as things are always in flux here, but for the past 8 months or so the number of accessible recasting shops has been in decline.
I'm not sure that's do. A friend of mine and I were able to search fo rthe exact same products on GW with the same images and names and there were several people offering them.
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Big Blind Bill wrote: If you have to use reddit or 4chan to find a page on a cataloging site, instead of the site's search engine, you can be sure that whatever they are selling is against the site's rules.
Before you could simply search for warhammer on those sites and get lots of recast hits. Now you can't. Rules have changed.
Oh, and not mentioning the shops but mentioning the third party sites? Come on, you don't see the fault in that reasoning?
As you have said, you have to check reddit or 4chan for the links. You can't find them by using the site's search engine.
nosferatu1001 wrote: quite easily, given you have a duty to know who you're buying from,
You do?
I'm interested to know where you get that from?
Is it a good idea to know where you're buying from, especially in an environment where you aren't dealing with a person face-to-face and are separated by thousands of miles? Absolutely. But a duty? Sounds a bit excessive to me.
and the fairly obvious case that buying from a Chinese guy stating theyre a recast doesnt help your credibility in saying you didnt know
Except, AFAIK, it isn't breaking the law to purchase recasts, whether you know they are or no, so this is utterly redundant.
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DCannon4Life wrote: I would like to know if Forgeworld (GW) is aware of how much MORE money they'd make if they reduced their prices by 25-30%. Perhaps they don't want to make more money? Could they not turn a profit? The demand for these models is definitely there, but at a price lower than FW seems willing (or able) to set.
I would love to buy authentic FW models from the company that did the original sculpts. I don't make that kind of money. /shrug
Yes, there is a magic point where revenue is maximised, but it isn't always at the highest price per unit, as each price increase will net you fewer sales beyond a certain point. That has to be traded off against cost of production (materials, labour etc..)
If, for instance, a 30% drop in RRP generated a 75% increase in sales, then it would seem to be a good idea, but that assumes production costs are linear. If they aren't (or don't drop significantly beyond a certain volume) then it can mean you're working a lot harder for no significant gain. Then it becomes a judgment call as to whether it is worth all the extra effort.
That said, I really don't see how that would apply to what is essentially a pretty traditional manufacturing set up like FW, as, assuming they didn't massively over invest in production and just did enough extra to keep pace with demand, the only possible disproportionate cost increase in costs would probably be increased wear and tear on moulds, and I somehow doubt the cost of that couldn't be absorbed easily by the increased income.
Personally, I think the biggest barrier to a price drop (assuming the numbers stack up were it to happen) is the GW attitude that they sell premium products at premium prices, and to charge less somehow devalues their brand (and apparently that's more important than making more cash.)
What I would be interested in is a comparison between the turnovers of the recast industry and FW themselves, because FW and BL combined don't generate a significant amount of GW's revenue (~10% IIRC) so it doesn't seem beyond plausible that FW aren't the biggest sellers of FW products on the planet!
Problem is the recast stuff tends to be of more consistent quality than Forge World. Once the molds are made (which has become SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper), the cost of further production is basically nothing, as demonstrated by the recasters.
I know a guy who got two FW Knights and a Fire Raptor for about $140, shipping included. That's normally like $700, not counting shipping. The cast quality was as good or better than Forgeworld, and I've never seen a china model with droopy barrels the way that every single FW gun comes. It kind of reminds me of this: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones
Except everyone still goes and buys Game of Thrones when it comes out, so HBO doesn't care. FW, on the other hand...
A friend of mine and I were able to search fo rthe exact same products on GW with the same images and names and there were several people offering them.
On the Chinese equivalent of Amazon you cannot find any recasts by searching the names of most units. You will find GW models, but they will be 90%-100% of the GB standard price, so either they are expensive fakes, or they are the real thing. Either way it would not be worth people in foreign countries (except Australia) buying them.
So how did GW actually shut them down? Why would they shut down if they didn't have to worry about anything because they were in China?
The actual shops don't get shut down. Their physical effects remain untouched. All that happens is the 3rd party who host their shop remove it, or force them to change their products. I don't know what has changed their policy.
Most shops still have the recasts, but they no longer advertise them. Instead you have to talk to the seller and ask if they have what you need.
finances their small home studio with 3d printer
In my experience most Chinese recast shops don't actually recast themselves, at least not most of their products. I've visited one of the places, and it was distribution centre rather than a factory.
I've talked with the owners of 3 or so of the shops, and they've told me that they buy or order the recasts from off site. I'm sure some of the models I've got are manufactured from the same place, but sold on different sites.
I don't know how this would effect profit for them. They wouldn't have to pay the large setup fee for buying a 3d printer and making the moulds, but they would earn less on each model they make.
I suppose it could be a way for them to get around the law, as they are not recasting, they are just selling a product (which they could claim they thought is genuine).
DarkLink wrote: I know a guy who got two FW Knights and a Fire Raptor for about $140, shipping included. That's normally like $700, not counting shipping. The cast quality was as good or better than Forgeworld, and I've never seen a china model with droopy barrels the way that every single FW gun comes. It kind of reminds me of this: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/game_of_thrones
Except everyone still goes and buys Game of Thrones when it comes out, so HBO doesn't care. FW, on the other hand...
Game of Thrones? I know like eight other shows I've had that problem with.
A friend of mine and I were able to search fo rthe exact same products on GW with the same images and names and there were several people offering them.
On the Chinese equivalent of Amazon you cannot find any recasts by searching the names of most units. You will find GW models, but they will be 90%-100% of the GB standard price, so either they are expensive fakes, or they are the real thing. Either way it would not be worth people in foreign countries (except Australia) buying them.
Never said it was Amazon. On the site ****, there were several recast Fire Raptors that could be ordered. Hell, an Imperial Knight was only $60, and the IK web bundle was only $160, with pictures.
2. Re-casts are not made through slave-labour.
I realize it's a popular trope that red China is basically the DPRK but bigger and scarier, but for heaven's sake... The biggest re-casters outsource the production to large factories that, to be honest, aren't places where I'm dreaming of getting a job, but still have massive amounts of people lining up to work. And, they are subject to Chinese wage legislation, with a minimum wage increasing by about 20% every year. In addition, these factories in particular usually pay about 15-20% above minimum wage (to keep the turnover down). In Shanghai and Guangdong, where they are located, this is about 3500rmb and 3000rmb per month, respectively.
3. Re-casts vary in quality.
There is a lot of crap out there. Go look around where these kinds of things are discussed, and you'll find plenty of people bemoaning the lumps of resin they've received. But certain re-casters are very serious about providing a quality product, and some of them are easily as good as the originals, possibly better.
4. People don't buy re-casts/download music solely due to price.
Music downloads have almost disappeared after streaming took off. Film downloads are heading the same direction too. And that's straight from the IP-lobby, not the Pirate Party. When even those guys are able to work through their ludicrous preconceived notions, why can't you?
5. There has been a big clampdown on re-casts lately.
Before, they were easily available and advertised mainly on two sites; China's domestic version of amazon/e-bay and China's international version of the same. Buying from these sites, due to how they worked, was safe and easy (no credit info to sellers, complaints about no delivery went to the site, etc). Now, you need to go on the d-l if you want to buy re-casts. What's left on these sites are genuine products from indies, FW re-sellers (buy from FW, import to China, sell to customers) and painted models.
6. The big re-casters have massive catalogs.
Not only do they sell everything GW and FW do, but they also have OOP stuff and limited edition miniatures. New stuff is usually for sale about 2 weeks after its official release date.
More fun facts:
- In Shanghai, there's a re-cast brick and mortar store (and two GW stores, plus a decent amount of indies with the real stuff).
- A clam-pack character is $3 if you know where to go and speak Chinese, $5 if you know where to go and don't speak Chinese, and $10 if you don't know where to go and don't speak Chinese.
- GW still make soft cover codexes, but only in Chinese. They cost the same as hard covers (300rmb - $50). As books are heavily subsidized in China, that puts them at a fairly high price point compared to soft cover novels, which typically retail for around 10-20rmb (~$2-3) in China (not fake).
- Chinese universities pirate foreign textbooks for their students.
- About the factory work above, H&M had a pretty hard time when they first established factories in China. They simply made sure their sub-contractors followed labour laws and paid minimum wage. With half the work force leaving over the course of a year, and a lot of money being spent on replacing old workers and training new, as well as problems with productivity since when most of the workers quit, they simply did not show up to work anymore, especially after Chinese New Year, they had to re-think their strategy. So, they upped the wages and took a much more active stance toward their sub-contractors to follow up on workers, and now they are one of the foreign companies in China with the highest worker retention rates (about ~95% y-o-y).
Big Blind Bill wrote: On the Chinese equivalent of Amazon you cannot find any recasts by searching the names of most units.
Probably because the recasters don't bother with 'most' units. They tend to stick to the stuff that sells in larger quantities.
Well, actually, I have been able to find 100% of the CSM, IG and Tyrand lines, including OOP models, available from recasters. Some of them actually have their act together.
That said, I have bought models from recasters before and the quality varies widely from what you would get from GW or FW. What's important is not how a model looks the day you get it, but how it looks a couple years afterwards. I had a Predator my FLGS used to call the sadpred, it was literally collapsing in the middle and all the guns started to point downwards. This started about 1.5 years after getting the model and eventually resulted in something that was not worth fielding b/c you could not really determine LOS from any of the guns.
For any recast I ever bought, I would have paid about the same after replacing it once the plastic started to go south.
In terms of recasts, there is nothing superior about recasts except price. The recasts aren't free, and they have to ship, usually by very slow post, from some developing country far, far away. If the recasts weren't cheaper, nobody would ever buy them.
I don't think it's possible for FW/GW to lower their prices to compete with recasters, because they'd never be able to afford to pay sculptors to make new models. The recasts of popular large models can be *insanely* cheap.
Both your statements are wrong.
Some recasters have much better quality than FW or GW finecast, none of them have any release agent to remove, some of them have better casting quality than ForgeWorld, with less warp, bubbles, sprue, mold lines, etc.
The cost of sculpting new models is overrated. A professional miniature sculptor will ask about 400 bucks for an extremely detailed (Primarch++) sculpt.
FW/GW could totally compete with recasters, but they wouldn't be able to pay business development costs and would have to make their books self-sufficient as they wouldn't be supported by miniature sales anymore.
Well, I don't see how a cast could be superior. I mean, maybe it is a nicer material to work with (I've never actually worked with one, so I can't say), but there can't be more detail than the original. The release agent is no big deal. I mean, you're going to wash all the pieces anyways, right?
How much do you think a sculptor makes as a salary? I don't think GW pays its sculptors piecework >.< Then, there's the space they take, benefits, management overhead, etc. It's a business, man.
I think you sort of failed your quote.
Here's how a recast can be superior:
Better Resin
Less moldlines
Less flash
No Hard to Remove release agent (it IS a big deal)
Less Sprue to remove / less chance of damage in transport
Less Warp (when the recasters take the time to unwarp what they've received from FW, their recasts can have zero warp as any resin cast should have)
Less / No Bubbles
There is no point for a company like GW to hire a Sculptor full time, or if there is, it would be one sculptor for the whole company.
They don't produce 48 actually new models every year afaik. The vast majority of their range is slight variations that could've been kitbashed / converted from existing kits.
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Sir Arun wrote: Recasters sell for a price that covers material costs, finances their small home studio with 3d printer and affordable living in the Chinese market (where cost of living is cheaper)
GW sells for a price that includes all of the above (adjusted to UK cost of living) and then some to finance their IP trademarks, pay their design team who come up with the ideas for the miniatures in the first place, pay for logistics and distribution, warehouse maintenance, future investments and revenues for shareholders.
Do you mean ideas for miniatures and fluff that they had ten years ago already ?
Logistics, distribution, warehousing, shareholder revenue are all costs that recasters have as well.
The only thing that GW has on top of recasters is the production of fluff / books / rules, which is not such a big cost overall.
I mean, let's look at the Revenant Titan which is arguably the best recast there is.
There's one set of rules, that uses the exact same weapons as everyone, two large blast strength D per weapon.
It has a 36" movement, is based off a much older miniature (armorcast uglies) and maybe even older one (epic ?), so it has a cost of 0 in terms of invention for the last twenty years maybe.
The design is neat, nice adaptation of the epic / armorcast thing, and the sculpting is minimalist, almost no details but that's fine because it's Eldar.
So overall, the new Revenant may have costed two or three hours of rules/concept/fluff work before pictures and all the other marketing stuff, and then the cost of its sculpting which is maybe one week of work including drawing.
Even the chinese could deal with those costs, some of the recasters have pictures of their kits, as well as pictures of assembled and well painted kits, so where's all that cost you think GW has and the recasters don't ?
Most of it is inefficiency, some of it is a large margin, and a tiny bit of it is the marketing (fulff / nice pictures / books) if said content is not self-sufficient.
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Davor wrote: I got a question. If it's legal in China, how do they get shut down then? I don't know remember the name but wasn't it said one or two got shut down a few weeks ago?
So how did GW actually shut them down? Why would they shut down if they didn't have to worry about anything because they were in China?
Let's imagine that I go to a website, from Belgium, that lets me access "illegal copies".
The owner of the copyright learns about that website.
The owner of the copyright contacts the website threatening legal action for their support of illegal activity.
The owner of the website decides they'd rather lose .0001% of their revenue (recasts) than 52% of their revenue (EU business).
Or, the owner decides they don't give a gak, their website is audited officially and blocked by your ISP.
Something being illegal doesn't necessarily mean it isn't going to exist, though. In fact, it's more likely TO exist if it's illegal. The owner of the IP is the one who has to spend money to stop them, money that has to come from somewhere - and it's not usually a cost effective thing, EVEN if you do manage to shut them down.
The laws and the ENFORCEMENT of those laws will vary from country to country. Just because it might not be legal in one country, doesn't necessarily follow that it is illegal everywhere.
They have dedicated sculptors, so one of your questions is pretty easy to answer.
Apparently you dont, but GW does. Maybe they know more than a nobody on the internet about employing high quality scultpors year in, year on, and more than a little about how to attract and retain talent? Piecemeal works for some people and ways of doing business, not others.
Even on (IMO) a very optimistic estimate of £50k a year, That's £192 a day (before tax, etc) based on 52x5 day working weeks.
So, even then, assuming we're talking infantry, 30mm scale, you're talking approx 1.5 working days for GW to spend in salary the figure that's being proposed for a one off sculpt.
I have no trouble believing a professional sculptor can produce a single 30mm scale model in approx 12 hours.
That's assuming, of course, they're on £50k. I suspect they're on nearer £30k on average, but that's based purely on instinct.
Yeah, it's all about enforcement.
If GW will drop prices, recasters will go out of business, because they pay production cost and shiping costs and it's not as cheap as you think.
Most Chinese recasts usually very fragile and will shatter if it's fall. But I know one shop that still working and have better quality.
I prefer to support the real thing. So there is still a real thing. Anyone who buys recasts is simply a d-bag in my opinion. If you don't want to spend money in an expensive hobby, you are in the wrong hobby.
Rippy wrote: I prefer to support the real thing. So there is still a real thing. Anyone who buys recasts is simply a d-bag in my opinion.
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Speaking up for the other d-bags here. I used to pirate music, all of the music. That's when CD's were priced locally at about $4 per song and you'd only really enjoy the half of the album that wasn't filler. Did the music industry die as a result? Oh, wait, they adapted to a new distribution method and more reasonable pricing. Haven't pirated music in years now. Steam did the same thing for video games and the movie industry is slowly figuring it out too.
Also, if stealing a car even remotely compared to digital IP infringement (it doesn't and is an idiotic comparison) I'd be driving a new car every day.
Rippy wrote: I prefer to support the real thing. So there is still a real thing. Anyone who buys recasts is simply a d-bag in my opinion.
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Speaking up for the other d-bags here. I used to pirate music, all of the music. That's when CD's were priced locally at about $4 per song and you'd only really enjoy the half of the album that wasn't filler. Did the music industry die as a result? Oh, wait, they adapted to a new distribution method and more reasonable pricing. Haven't pirated music in years now. Steam did the same thing for video games and the movie industry is slowly figuring it out too.
Also, if stealing a car even remotely compared to digital IP infringement (it doesn't and is an idiotic comparison) I'd be driving a new car every day.
You can justify that you are a white knight saving the rest of us from high prices in the long run in your head, though the reality is you are knowingly stealing.
MarsNZ wrote: Nowhere am I justifying anything, nor do I deny stealing (it says right there in the last sentence).
Promoting yourself as some IP champion then deriding someone else as a white knight is pretty funny to see though.
There is a big difference between white knighting and pointing out facts. I don't know what your point is then. All I said is it is stealing, and I don't like thieves.
Also you misunderstand the comparison. Stealing is a car is the same as stealing GWs profits, just one isn't as big of a crime as the other. That is all that is saying.
You know what is really funny? The music in the video above was made for a single event, then the copyright organisation that ordered it stole it and started putting it on DVDs. ;-)
You know what is really funny? The music in the video above was made for a single event, then the copyright organisation that ordered it stole it and started putting it on DVDs. ;-)
Rippy wrote: There is a big difference between white knighting and pointing out facts. I don't know what your point is then. All I said is it is stealing, and I don't like thieves.
Also you misunderstand the comparison. Stealing is a car is the same as stealing GWs profits, just one isn't as big of a crime as the other. That is all that is saying.
My dear white knight, you are pointing out gak.
Your points come from the perennial assumption that if the pirated product didn't exist, the people buying it would automatically buy the official product instead. That has been proven wrong so many times it's got beyond silly to keep resorting to that argument again and again.
I have some forgeworld recasted replicas, I bought them because they were offered at a price I considered acceptable. I would have never bought the official product because its price is ridiculous. If the recasted product weren't available, I would have looked for alternatives among other model ranges. Which I prefer to before going the recast route, by the way.
Not to mention recasters also tend to offer products that GW simply no longer produces. Sometimes it's either pay a ridiculous amount of money on eBay or go the recast route, because you want a product GW does not want to sell (probably because they replaced it some time ago by a new & crappy plastic toy).
And if you want to support your argument with audiovisual resources, I'm glad to inform you this is the one:
Rippy wrote: There is a big difference between white knighting and pointing out facts. I don't know what your point is then. All I said is it is stealing, and I don't like thieves.
Also you misunderstand the comparison. Stealing is a car is the same as stealing GWs profits, just one isn't as big of a crime as the other. That is all that is saying.
My dear white knight, you are pointing out gak.
Your points come from the perennial assumption that if the pirated product didn't exist, the people buying it would automatically buy the official product instead. That has been proven wrong so many times it's got beyond silly to keep resorting to that argument again and again.
I have some forgeworld recasted replicas, I bought them because they were offered at a price I considered acceptable. I would have never bought the official product because its price is ridiculous. If the recasted product weren't available, I would have looked for alternatives among other model ranges. Which I prefer to before going the recast route, by the way.
Not to mention recasters also tend to offer products that GW simply no longer produces. Sometimes it's either pay a ridiculous amount of money on eBay or go the recast route, because you want a product GW does not want to sell (probably because they replaced it some time ago by a new & crappy plastic toy).
And if you want to support your argument with audiovisual resources, I'm glad to inform you this is the one:
My fellow white knight, just because you are too poor/unwilling to support the real product that you are stealing, doesnt justify your theft anymore than if you would have bought it legitimately. Your point is moot, and just because you personally have decided that the price is unreasonable, doesn't mean you should be allowed to steal it. Your perception is laughably immature, naive and unrealistic. Cute that you are so able to create this justifiable fantasy in your head though.
To steal: you have something, I do not. I take it from you. Now you don't have it and I do.
To copy: you have something, I do not. I make a copy of your thing. Now you have it and I do as well.
We could discuss the implications of copyright, but to plainly say I'm "stealing" anything just shows how you have no idea what you're talking about. Get your facts right before even bringing them up the table.
If you want to feel the glorious and mighty white knight who stands besides the GW do-gooders and calls out the devious and evil "thieves", do so, but then don't pretend the "thieves" are the inmature, naive and unrealistic ones, lol.
Mostly because they're getting the same product as you (or even better) for half (or even less) the price. Does that make you feel like a fool? Who's the naive one here?
To steal: you have something, I do not. I take it from you. Now you don't have it and I do.
To copy: you have something, I do not. I make a copy of your thing. Now you have it and I do as well.
We could discuss the implications of copyright, but to plainly say I'm "stealing" anything just shows how you have no idea what you're talking about. Get your facts right before even bringing them up the table.
If you want to feel the glorious and mighty white knight who stands besides the GW do-gooders and calls out the devious and evil "thieves", do so, but then don't pretend the "thieves" are the inmature, naive and unrealistic ones, lol.
Mostly because they're getting the same product as you (or even better) for half (or even less) the price. Does that make you feel like a fool? Who's the naive one here?
Yes, yes, I am simplifying the whole stealing thing, though the reality is, you are. Copying something that isn't yours to copy is taking money away from the owner of the original. Even if you didn't have the intention of buying the orginal which you copied. It is still stealing. Sorry little buddy.
I don't want to feel glorious and be a might white knight (shucks, thanks for thinking I am), I just want to be mature, informed and realistic If my pointing out what side of the coin stealing/copying is has lead you to feel like you should name call against me, then maybe those feelings are indicating your need to not be called out as the thief you are? Maybe you don't want to be seen as an immoral person, while having immoral actions? Meh, you keep stealing little fella, while justifying to yourself that you are a cool black knight and not doing the wrong thing.
To steal: you have something, I do not. I take it from you. Now you don't have it and I do.
To copy: you have something, I do not. I make a copy of your thing. Now you have it and I do as well.
You need to keep in mind that some countries have, almost just about, equated the two things. This is one of the issues with discussing these things online.
Different countries have different laws.
Please, note that I am not disagreeing with the sentiment of your post in general terms.
We should indeed say; "the crime is Copyright Infringement" when that is the case, not; "the crime is Theft".
Saying it is stealing is, in a lot of cases, a blatant appeal to emotion.
As far as I'm aware recasting isn't an endightable offence in the UK, it will usually carry a very hefty fine but not a criminal sentence, that comes in usually as a result of what the proceeds are used for, drugs etc.
Yes, yes, I am simplifying the whole stealing thing, though the reality is, you are. Copying something that isn't yours to copy is taking money away from the owner of the original. Even if you didn't have the intention of buying the orginal which you copied. It is still stealing. Sorry little buddy.
I don't want to feel glorious and be a might white knight (shucks, thanks for thinking I am), I just want to be mature, informed and realistic If my pointing out what side of the coin stealing/copying is has lead you to feel like you should name call against me, then maybe those feelings are indicating your need to not be called out as the thief you are? Maybe you don't want to be seen as an immoral person, while having immoral actions? Meh, you keep stealing little fella, while justifying to yourself that you are a cool black knight and not doing the wrong thing.
Look, you were the first one to start screaming "thieves, thieves!" around, so you're not exactly on high moral ground here when it comes to name calling.
As I've tried to explain to you, to steal is a thing, and to buy recasted (i.e., unnoficial, copied, pirated, whatever) items is a different thing. To steal from GW is to get into a GW shop and steal a model. I don't understand how I may be stealing something if I buy a product from a chinese recaster when I was never going to buy the official product in the first place. I can't see anyone losing money there.
So in the end this discussion pretty much always ends up like this:
- Dude, say what you want, I'm getting the same item (or better) as you for half (or less) the price.
- But but... you're a thief! And I'm so mighty!
Tends to happen when some companies only consider globalization and offsourcing as means to improving their profit margins via lowering their production costs while charging their customers even higher prices for the products. But globalization and internet also mean the customers will have a chance of obtaining direct access to cheaper products as well. Obviously some customers will take the opportunity while others will keep their loyalties (and their moneys) with the same companies that treat them like slowed milking cows. Each to their conscience.
Recasters are a symptom of a problem; people enjoy 40k/Fantasy, but they have been priced out of the hobby. Yes it is morally dubious, but considering how popular recasts are becoming, and this is important, the quality on offer is comparable to GW's for a tiny fraction of the price, this is something to be noticed beyond any moralistic arguement.
A few things to take away:
a) Businesses exist and are evidently profitable enough to cast and ship GW product at 20-30% of GW's prices. GW/FW will have higher costs (artists, storage [most recasters cast-to-order from what I understand] GW stores) but that is insufficient to justify the different, especially considering the quality of recasts; we're not talking knock-off electronics here, most are indistinguishable, and recasts of Finecast are generally better than finecast (and some even offer metal casts for such things, still at a fraction of the finecast price). GW could stand to lower prices, remain profitable and get some of that recast business.
b) Demand. People are willing to go through all manner of hoops to get lower-cost 40k/Fantasy product. The product remains popular enough for people to go to great lengths to get it. People who buy recasts are no doubt only a small percentage of the playerbase, due to moral disagreements with it, uncertainty over buying product from China, etc, but the fact remains the IP is popular as all hell; you won't find recast Infinity, Bolt Action and only a tiny amount of Warmahordes.
c) Desire for OOP models. Recasters tend to have extensive stocks of OOP models available for good prices; GW has chosen to axe popular lines for one reason or another, but the demand remains and is filled elsewhere. This is the one form of recasting I have no moral objections to whatsoever; if GW refuses to sell, for instance, Kasrkin, anyone who wants those awesome models shouldn't be demonized for buying recasts of them; GW clearly doesn't want their money at all. GW used to have their "collectors" ranges of models they weren't going to support anymore, but were still available. Having lost interest in that market, evidently, they would rather try to force you to buy newer versions of things you might not want. Vote with your wallet.
The whole recast industry represents a good way for GW to rectify its problems in achieving growth; their business isn't going anywhere at present, and all they have to do is look at the "alternatives" to see why people aren't buying. Recasting is the response to out-of-control and inconsistent pricing, sure, GW can try to shut it down, but the Music industry tried that for years fruitlessly and finally realized that offering their product in a different way at better prices they wouldn't have to worry about piracy. Some people will always pirate/buy recasts, but the majority will prefer the "authentic" product provided it offers value for money. Fleecing your customers doesn't engender brand loyalty, whether that be buying recasts or going to a competitor, they represent the same kind of problem.
Yes, yes, I am simplifying the whole stealing thing, though the reality is, you are. Copying something that isn't yours to copy is taking money away from the owner of the original. Even if you didn't have the intention of buying the orginal which you copied. It is still stealing. Sorry little buddy.
I don't want to feel glorious and be a might white knight (shucks, thanks for thinking I am), I just want to be mature, informed and realistic If my pointing out what side of the coin stealing/copying is has lead you to feel like you should name call against me, then maybe those feelings are indicating your need to not be called out as the thief you are? Maybe you don't want to be seen as an immoral person, while having immoral actions? Meh, you keep stealing little fella, while justifying to yourself that you are a cool black knight and not doing the wrong thing.
Look, you were the first one to start screaming "thieves, thieves!" around, so you're not exactly on high moral ground here when it comes to name calling.
As I've tried to explain to you, to steal is a thing, and to buy recasted (i.e., unnoficial, copied, pirated, whatever) items is a different thing. To steal from GW is to get into a GW shop and steal a model. I don't understand how I may be stealing something if I buy a product from a chinese recaster when I was never going to buy the official product in the first place. I can't see anyone losing money there.
So in the end this discussion pretty much always ends up like this:
- Dude, say what you want, I'm getting the same item (or better) as you for half (or less) the price.
- But but... you're a thief! And I'm so mighty!
Tends to happen when some companies only consider globalization and offsourcing as means to improving their profit margins via lowering their production costs while charging their customers even higher prices for the products. But globalization and internet also mean the customers will have a chance of obtaining direct access to cheaper products as well. Obviously some customers will take the opportunity while others will keep their loyalties (and their moneys) with the same companies that treat them like slowed milking cows. Each to their conscience.
I get your point little fella, I truely do, it is exciting to be able to acquire things immorally (we will stick with that wording for you) just because it is cheaper. To be honest, if I was poor, I might consider doing the immoral thing by engaging in copyright infringement as well so I could feel awesome like the people who support the company, with their awesome models, allowing the company to make more miniatures and stay in business. As I can afford the real deal, I support the company (whose product we both like). You act like companies trying to make money (as much money as they can) is an evil/bad thing, again proving your naivety in such things. Still doesn't make you a moral person. I don't respect the fact that you think it is cool to get things cheaper immorally, and I think it is super amusing how you keep referring to the simple act of doing the right thing as a "mighty heroic act" in the eyes of the right doer. Simple fact is, we go to forgeworld.co.uk without a single thought of white knighting, it is just what you do, not steal... Erm sorry, I meant act immoral.
c) Desire for OOP models. Recasters tend to have extensive stocks of OOP models available for good prices; GW has chosen to axe popular lines for one reason or another, but the demand remains and is filled elsewhere. This is the one form of recasting I have no moral objections to whatsoever; if GW refuses to sell, for instance, Kasrkin, anyone who wants those awesome models shouldn't be demonized for buying recasts of them; GW clearly doesn't want their money at all. GW used to have their "collectors" ranges of models they weren't going to support anymore, but were still available. Having lost interest in that market, evidently, they would rather try to force you to buy newer versions of things you might not want. Vote with your wallet.
To Be honest, I can understand getting models that are no longer available to a point, as you physically cannot get them any other way.
IMO there's two perspectives to consider: legal and moral.
From a legal standpoint, recasting is most likely illegal in most countries. However, what about buying and owning recasts? Where I live it seems to be 100% legal.
From a moral standpoint however, I feel there's no right answer, as every man draws the line in a different spot.
Some people feel it's stealing and therefore wrong.
Other feel it's just getting a product cheaper/smarter therefore it's totally ok.
Others are somewhat in the middle. For example I feel recasting is somewhat morally questionable, but then so I feel about a lot of stuff GW does (their ridiculous pricing policy being top of the list, so for me buying recasts is a way of 'gettng even with the evil corporation' :p
LordBlades wrote: IMO there's two perspectives to consider: legal and moral.
From a legal standpoint, recasting is most likely illegal in most countries. However, what about buying and owning recasts? Where I live it seems to be 100% legal.
From a moral standpoint however, I feel there's no right answer, as every man draws the line in a different spot.
Some people feel it's stealing and therefore wrong.
Other feel it's just getting a product cheaper/smarter therefore it's totally ok.
Others are somewhat in the middle. For example I feel recasting is somewhat morally questionable, but then so I feel about a lot of stuff GW does (their ridiculous pricing policy being top of the list, so for me buying recasts is a way of 'gettng even with the evil corporation' :p
Yeah well said mate. I have said my peice and will leave it at that!
Yes, yes, I am simplifying the whole stealing thing, though the reality is, you are. Copying something that isn't yours to copy is taking money away from the owner of the original. Even if you didn't have the intention of buying the orginal which you copied. It is still stealing. Sorry little buddy.
I don't want to feel glorious and be a might white knight (shucks, thanks for thinking I am), I just want to be mature, informed and realistic If my pointing out what side of the coin stealing/copying is has lead you to feel like you should name call against me, then maybe those feelings are indicating your need to not be called out as the thief you are? Maybe you don't want to be seen as an immoral person, while having immoral actions? Meh, you keep stealing little fella, while justifying to yourself that you are a cool black knight and not doing the wrong thing.
Look, you were the first one to start screaming "thieves, thieves!" around, so you're not exactly on high moral ground here when it comes to name calling.
As I've tried to explain to you, to steal is a thing, and to buy recasted (i.e., unnoficial, copied, pirated, whatever) items is a different thing. To steal from GW is to get into a GW shop and steal a model. I don't understand how I may be stealing something if I buy a product from a chinese recaster when I was never going to buy the official product in the first place. I can't see anyone losing money there.
So in the end this discussion pretty much always ends up like this:
- Dude, say what you want, I'm getting the same item (or better) as you for half (or less) the price.
- But but... you're a thief! And I'm so mighty!
Tends to happen when some companies only consider globalization and offsourcing as means to improving their profit margins via lowering their production costs while charging their customers even higher prices for the products. But globalization and internet also mean the customers will have a chance of obtaining direct access to cheaper products as well. Obviously some customers will take the opportunity while others will keep their loyalties (and their moneys) with the same companies that treat them like slowed milking cows. Each to their conscience.
I get your point little fella, I truely do, it is exciting to be able to acquire things immorally (we will stick with that wording for you) just because it is cheaper. To be honest, if I was poor, I might consider doing the immoral thing by engaging in copyright infringement as well so I could feel awesome like the people who support the company, with their awesome models, allowing the company to make more miniatures and stay in business. As I can afford the real deal, I support the company (whose product we both like). You act like companies trying to make money (as much money as they can) is an evil/bad thing, again proving your naivety in such things. Still doesn't make you a moral person. I don't respect the fact that you think it is cool to get things cheaper immorally, and I think it is super amusing how you keep referring to the simple act of doing the right thing as a "mighty heroic act" in the eyes of the right doer. Simple fact is, we go to forgeworld.co.uk without a single thought of white knighting, it is just what you do, not steal... Erm sorry, I meant act immoral.
c) Desire for OOP models. Recasters tend to have extensive stocks of OOP models available for good prices; GW has chosen to axe popular lines for one reason or another, but the demand remains and is filled elsewhere. This is the one form of recasting I have no moral objections to whatsoever; if GW refuses to sell, for instance, Kasrkin, anyone who wants those awesome models shouldn't be demonized for buying recasts of them; GW clearly doesn't want their money at all. GW used to have their "collectors" ranges of models they weren't going to support anymore, but were still available. Having lost interest in that market, evidently, they would rather try to force you to buy newer versions of things you might not want. Vote with your wallet.
To Be honest, I can understand getting models that are no longer available to a point, as you physically cannot get them any other way.
Wow... You sir need to get off that high horse, I'd happily bet pennies to pounds that you have an Apple product of some kind, have eaten at McDonald's, shop at some massive chain supermarket etc. That means you support a whole range of "immoral" activity, including theft, sweat shops and all that, saying that someone is stealing when they buy a recast is total nonsense, don't point figures at people for doing something you think is morally wrong when you do tthings that others find morally wrong, cast the first stone and all that
Yes, yes, I am simplifying the whole stealing thing, though the reality is, you are. Copying something that isn't yours to copy is taking money away from the owner of the original. Even if you didn't have the intention of buying the orginal which you copied. It is still stealing. Sorry little buddy.
I don't want to feel glorious and be a might white knight (shucks, thanks for thinking I am), I just want to be mature, informed and realistic If my pointing out what side of the coin stealing/copying is has lead you to feel like you should name call against me, then maybe those feelings are indicating your need to not be called out as the thief you are? Maybe you don't want to be seen as an immoral person, while having immoral actions? Meh, you keep stealing little fella, while justifying to yourself that you are a cool black knight and not doing the wrong thing.
Look, you were the first one to start screaming "thieves, thieves!" around, so you're not exactly on high moral ground here when it comes to name calling.
As I've tried to explain to you, to steal is a thing, and to buy recasted (i.e., unnoficial, copied, pirated, whatever) items is a different thing. To steal from GW is to get into a GW shop and steal a model. I don't understand how I may be stealing something if I buy a product from a chinese recaster when I was never going to buy the official product in the first place. I can't see anyone losing money there.
So in the end this discussion pretty much always ends up like this:
- Dude, say what you want, I'm getting the same item (or better) as you for half (or less) the price.
- But but... you're a thief! And I'm so mighty!
Tends to happen when some companies only consider globalization and offsourcing as means to improving their profit margins via lowering their production costs while charging their customers even higher prices for the products. But globalization and internet also mean the customers will have a chance of obtaining direct access to cheaper products as well. Obviously some customers will take the opportunity while others will keep their loyalties (and their moneys) with the same companies that treat them like slowed milking cows. Each to their conscience.
I get your point little fella, I truely do, it is exciting to be able to acquire things immorally (we will stick with that wording for you) just because it is cheaper. To be honest, if I was poor, I might consider doing the immoral thing by engaging in copyright infringement as well so I could feel awesome like the people who support the company, with their awesome models, allowing the company to make more miniatures and stay in business. As I can afford the real deal, I support the company (whose product we both like). You act like companies trying to make money (as much money as they can) is an evil/bad thing, again proving your naivety in such things. Still doesn't make you a moral person. I don't respect the fact that you think it is cool to get things cheaper immorally, and I think it is super amusing how you keep referring to the simple act of doing the right thing as a "mighty heroic act" in the eyes of the right doer. Simple fact is, we go to forgeworld.co.uk without a single thought of white knighting, it is just what you do, not steal... Erm sorry, I meant act immoral.
c) Desire for OOP models. Recasters tend to have extensive stocks of OOP models available for good prices; GW has chosen to axe popular lines for one reason or another, but the demand remains and is filled elsewhere. This is the one form of recasting I have no moral objections to whatsoever; if GW refuses to sell, for instance, Kasrkin, anyone who wants those awesome models shouldn't be demonized for buying recasts of them; GW clearly doesn't want their money at all. GW used to have their "collectors" ranges of models they weren't going to support anymore, but were still available. Having lost interest in that market, evidently, they would rather try to force you to buy newer versions of things you might not want. Vote with your wallet.
To Be honest, I can understand getting models that are no longer available to a point, as you physically cannot get them any other way.
Wow... You sir need to get off that high horse, I'd happily bet pennies to pounds that you have an Apple product of some kind, have eaten at McDonald's, shop at some massive chain supermarket etc. That means you support a whole range of "immoral" activity, including theft, sweat shops and all that, saying that someone is stealing when they buy a recast is total nonsense, don't point figures at people for doing something you think is morally wrong when you do tthings that others find morally wrong, cast the first stone and all that
I didn't say I was completely moral silly billy, the other guy said that about me, yes I very occationally eat maccas (gotta watch my fitness), eww Apple products (yes I have Samsung, same "immorallity" around the factory workers who made it), though I personally don't see that as immoral.
I am simply saying that I don't like your actions if you are willing to buy recasts. Sorry if my opinion bothers your immoral actions, but just do as you think right, that is what I do.
I didn't say I was completely moral silly billy, the other guy said that about me, yes I very occationally eat maccas (gotta watch my fitness), eww Apple products (yes I have Samsung, same "immorallity" around the factory workers who made it), though I personally don't see that as immoral.
I am simply saying that I don't like your actions if you are willing to buy recasts. Sorry if my opinion bothers your immoral actions, but just do as you think right, that is what I do.
Just for clarification, did you just state you are bothered more by a bloke in his garage making unauthorised copies of toy soldiers than you are by people working in appalling, frequently hazardous, conditions for a pittance?
I do "support software creators" instead of bothering with digital piracy. But I do so not because of principles, but also for reasons like safety, time conservation, support that legit publishers/developers offer. Quite some time ago those companies didn't offer any of that, but simple market laws effectively led to consumers making a point against situation that bore symptoms not dissimilar to typical faults of monopolized fields of production: no incentive for publishers to either bother with better products and services or with adjusting prices even though there was a room for that. Times have changed and impact piracy did is not to be dismissed.
Just the fact that such change was possible means that people involved into piracy weren't the only ones acting "immoral" (parenthesis are used because morals are extremely subjective and sometimes controversial), and, by extension, so can be said about people who supported whatever party we are talking about, even if what they did at the time seemed like right thing to do.
Just as you can see people breaking norms of morals and law for nothing more than personal gain, you can also learn just how many norms and laws there were in the history of humanity that are by no means are considered highly moral today, not to mention legality.
The only thing I can be sure of (with the caveat that it's still subjective) is that whenever you support something, be it law, principle, particular group or power, make sure that it is for the betterment of relevant aspect of life involved.
Rippy wrote: I get your point little fella, I truely do, it is exciting to be able to acquire things immorally (we will stick with that wording for you) just because it is cheaper. To be honest, if I was poor, I might consider doing the immoral thing by engaging in copyright infringement as well so I could feel awesome like the people who support the company, with their awesome models, allowing the company to make more miniatures and stay in business. As I can afford the real deal, I support the company (whose product we both like). You act like companies trying to make money (as much money as they can) is an evil/bad thing, again proving your naivety in such things. Still doesn't make you a moral person. I don't respect the fact that you think it is cool to get things cheaper immorally, and I think it is super amusing how you keep referring to the simple act of doing the right thing as a "mighty heroic act" in the eyes of the right doer. Simple fact is, we go to forgeworld.co.uk without a single thought of white knighting, it is just what you do, not steal... Erm sorry, I meant act immoral.
:|
I don't buy recasted products out of the "excitement" related to adquiring things "inmorally". I have bought recasted products because I have considered them 1) a good deal in terms of quality/price and 2) a better deal than other options (one of such options, the official product).
There's no "I'm gonna get back at evil corporation" feeling here. It's just a matter of being a smart customer. Example: if Forgeworld offers a product for 50$ and Mr. Chinese Recaster manages to offer the very same product (or even better, as he's a really good recaster and has actually improved upon the original mould) for 25$, I'll then have a look at shipping costs, guarantees and probability of having unwanted issues. I did. I asked people around my local area (and some people I've known for a long time in the net) about their experiences with both FW and recasters. Thing is, almost all the people I asked had more positive things to say about the recaster than about FW, both in terms to shipping costs and the actual quality of the product. In fact, when asked about the chinese recaster, most of them lamented he doesn't have a wider catalogue of available products.
Then you have the issue I've already mentioned and MajorStoffer adressed specifically: OOP models. There are some now-oopGW models I really like. Some of them I've been able to obtain via eBay for a reasonable price. Others, there's simply no way. So in the end, recasters were the only available solution. And to get five OOP models for less than what just one of them is likely to cost on eBay, what can I say? Deal.
I'm the 'getting back at evil corporations' guy. What I mean by that:
Both me and my wife are high enough in the corporate food chain to be involved in or at least have visibility on quite a few management decisions, and the abstract morals of the matters at hand usually take a back seat to 'does this make us more money?' (as long as it's legal ofc).
GW is in this to make money. They're not charging me a price they think its 'fair' or 'reasonable'. They're charging me the price somebody has calculated will bring maximum revenue.
I'm in it to enjoy my hobby at a reasonable cost without breaking any laws. Therefore, when GW gies beyond the (purely subjective) reasonable limit, I buy recasts. For example: Tau Broadsides.
I don't buy recasted products out of the "excitement" related to adquiring things "inmorally". I have bought recasted products because I have considered them 1) a good deal in terms of quality/price and 2) a better deal than other options (one of such options, the official product).
There's no "I'm gonna get back at evil corporation" feeling here. It's just a matter of being a smart customer.
The "smart customer" analogy would work if you were talking about one company versus another company's product. But you're not. You're talking about the choice between a legal version of a product, and an illegal version of a product.
For example, you look at Games Workshop models, and decide they're too expensive and not good enough for your tastes. So you decide instead you'll buy Privateer Press models.
Your analogy is basically saying "Hmmm I want a Ferari, but they cost 100,000. Oh look, this guy I met in a back alley is willing to sell me THIS Ferari, which might be stolen or made from knock-off parts, for only $50,000". Yes, in the end you have a Ferari, but it's not legal.
Your analogy is basically saying "Hmmm I want a Ferari, but they cost 100,000. Oh look, this guy I met in a back alley is willing to sell me THIS Ferari, which might be stolen or made from knock-off parts, for only $50,000". Yes, in the end you have a Ferari, but it's not legal.
Except:
-You know it's not stolen but a knock-off
-Guy never claims it's anything but a knock-off
-Buying it is legal at least un some places
Your analogy is basically saying "Hmmm I want a Ferari, but they cost 100,000. Oh look, this guy I met in a back alley is willing to sell me THIS Ferari, which might be stolen or made from knock-off parts, for only $50,000". Yes, in the end you have a Ferari, but it's not legal.
It's not a Ferrari either.
It is just something that looks like a Ferrari, sounds like a Ferrari and goes like a Ferrari, but costs half as much.
Honestly a lot of the problem at least with FW is the company's own QC and the general culture of China where bribes are considered a perk of elevated position.
Models with minor defects are tossed out, and either an employee takes them as a bonus and they just end up on Chinese ebay. Then, people in Hong Kong buy them for a quarter of retail and sell them for half of retail or they get re casted.
Anyone from China can walk into the FW manufacturing plant and get whatever they want at a "factory discount" from the shift manager for pennies on the dollar. It's that easy to start a recast site-it's actually what my Chinese roommate did to get me an entire FW Mechanicum army for Christmas when he went home (I asked for an explanation because I was hoping he hadn't just gone and bought me 2000$ Of minis. Apparently the grand total for "I knew you liked that army so I got you one of everything" was 50$ American).
The world is getting smaller. Different people think things are worth different amounts. Don't expect to see less of this sort of thing as time goes on if Asia continues to be the world's biggest manufacturing base.
I didn't say I was completely moral silly billy, the other guy said that about me, yes I very occationally eat maccas (gotta watch my fitness), eww Apple products (yes I have Samsung, same "immorallity" around the factory workers who made it), though I personally don't see that as immoral.
I am simply saying that I don't like your actions if you are willing to buy recasts. Sorry if my opinion bothers your immoral actions, but just do as you think right, that is what I do.
Just for clarification, did you just state you are bothered more by a bloke in his garage making unauthorised copies of toy soldiers than you are by people working in appalling, frequently hazardous, conditions for a pittance?
Thank you for taking my words completely out of context. No that is not what I meant at all.
I didn't say I was completely moral silly billy, the other guy said that about me, yes I very occationally eat maccas (gotta watch my fitness), eww Apple products (yes I have Samsung, same "immorallity" around the factory workers who made it), though I personally don't see that as immoral.
I am simply saying that I don't like your actions if you are willing to buy recasts. Sorry if my opinion bothers your immoral actions, but just do as you think right, that is what I do.
Just for clarification, did you just state you are bothered more by a bloke in his garage making unauthorised copies of toy soldiers than you are by people working in appalling, frequently hazardous, conditions for a pittance?
Thank you for taking my words completely out of context. No that is not what I meant at all.
yes I very occationally eat maccas (gotta watch my fitness), eww Apple products (yes I have Samsung, same "immorallity" around the factory workers who made it), though I personally don't see that as immoral.
How is that out of context? You just admitted to purchasing things made with immoral business practices.
When I buy a bigmac I don't think "feth the little guy in a factory who made the wrapping and boxes for this meal". I am pretty sure this thought doesn't cross many people's minds when they are buying food. I don't even know the facts for that at all. I know that when Big W started using Bangaleshi workers, the public cried out at their expense, though a journalist simply going over there and speaking to the workers showed how thankful the people were for the influx of jobs.
Though when it comes to stealing other people's intellectual property, I have control over that. I know that the music, the miniatures, the movies are owned by someone who can rightfully get the money they are entitled to by someone making a purchase of their copyrighted product.
I guess what I am saying is, although factory workers in other countries having decent human rights is a big deal, and it hurts my heart that people are willing to exploit people for money is terrible, what can I do about it? Honestly, most products floating around in Western Countries are made in those factories. What I can do is not steal. See my point?
I didn't say I was completely moral silly billy, the other guy said that about me, yes I very occationally eat maccas (gotta watch my fitness), eww Apple products (yes I have Samsung, same "immorallity" around the factory workers who made it), though I personally don't see that as immoral.
I am simply saying that I don't like your actions if you are willing to buy recasts. Sorry if my opinion bothers your immoral actions, but just do as you think right, that is what I do.
Just for clarification, did you just state you are bothered more by a bloke in his garage making unauthorised copies of toy soldiers than you are by people working in appalling, frequently hazardous, conditions for a pittance?
Thank you for taking my words completely out of context. No that is not what I meant at all.
"I occasionally..... ....but I don't see that as immoral"
Seems pretty cut and dried to me, you're arguing that recasts are immoral, but supporting businesses that employ practices that would get them prosecuted into bankruptcy in the West and claiming you don't see the immorality.
When one quotes an entire paragraph and whole sentences, it is pretty difficult to remove context.
Either way, I asked you a direct question about clarifying your position, because what you were claiming seemed utterly facile. Rather than arguing with me, maybe take the opportunity to clarify what you meant, as I originally asked?
I didn't say I was completely moral silly billy, the other guy said that about me, yes I very occationally eat maccas (gotta watch my fitness), eww Apple products (yes I have Samsung, same "immorallity" around the factory workers who made it), though I personally don't see that as immoral.
I am simply saying that I don't like your actions if you are willing to buy recasts. Sorry if my opinion bothers your immoral actions, but just do as you think right, that is what I do.
Just for clarification, did you just state you are bothered more by a bloke in his garage making unauthorised copies of toy soldiers than you are by people working in appalling, frequently hazardous, conditions for a pittance?
Thank you for taking my words completely out of context. No that is not what I meant at all.
"I occasionally..... ....but I don't see that as immoral"
Seems pretty cut and dried to me, you're arguing that recasts are immoral, but supporting businesses that employ practices that would get them prosecuted into bankruptcy in the West and claiming you don't see the immorality.
When one quotes an entire paragraph and whole sentences, it is pretty difficult to remove context.
Either way, I asked you a direct question about clarifying your position, because what you were claiming seemed utterly facile. Rather than arguing with me, maybe take the opportunity to clarify what you meant, as I originally asked?
It's just wrong to say that theft of intellectual proper is ok because the item is too expensive/overpriced/undervalued. When someone can't afford to buy a soundtrack, it is not ok to download it; when someone cannot afford HBO it is not ok to torrent GoT; when someone thinks a videogame is overpriced with DLCs, it's not ok to pirate it.
This isn't just me saying so, it's the law in almost every civilized country in this world, including ones in which enforcement is very lax.
To the point of recasters and 40k: A small number of units like IK, other titans, and expensive models might make some financial sense (the savings can be huge). For all the infantry sized stuff though, I don't see the savings at all (considering the other factors, like convenience, delivery and safety).
Talys wrote: For all the infantry sized stuff though, I don't see the savings at all (considering the other factors, like convenience, delivery and safety).
Could you define "convenience" and "delivery"? Virtually every chinese recaster has cheaper delivery rates than FW, some even offer free shipping for anything you may buy, others offer it if the order goes over a certain amount (not huge amounts in any case). In terms of speed, from China to Western Europe it's usually between 2 and 3 weeks.
And safety... please tell me this is not the point where again I have to read incredible stories about radioactive resin that eats your hands and eyes the very second you open the package.
The way you're saying what I've quoted, I have the feeling you're not really acquainted with recasts.
When this topic had its monthly do over in Discussions a few weeks ago, Sigvtar actually explained he'd had his recasts tested because he has young children and wanted to be sure.
They're technically slightly more toxic than FW resin, but not in any meaningful sense, certainly not to the point where he was concerned for his children or his own health.
It goes to the argument that what is sufficiently more toxic than resin to pose a threat once cured that won't kill the casters in short order, behaves like resin for casting purposes and is sufficiently cheaper than resin to provide an incentive to use it?
It simply isn't really possible to form a coherent and plausible argument in favour of recast resin being meaningfully toxic.
@Az & Korinov - I actually meant the safety of giving your credit card information and your personal details to a vendor in China who you probably don't even know the identity of.
A popular recaster site shut down by GW last year has several posts on its FB page with customers who never got their stuff, and obviously things can be lost in the mail.
With GW/FW, they'll just resend anything lost, and PayPal protects you as well (though I don't recall anyone who has ever had to go that route).
My point though, wad that except for expensive FW models and (expensive) FW single model heroes, the recasters aren't really cheaper. With many GW kits, the prices are close (if not more, factoring discounts). And the quality is great on some, while iffy on others.
I'm fine playing with people who have knockoffs (a friend has more than $5000 of Chinese knockoffs -- though I'm pretty sure he ha three times that in GW stuff), so I get to see quite a bit of it. I just don't see the appeal, generally speaking, with the exception of a small number of big kits (revenants and knights being at the top).
Azreal13 wrote: When this topic had its monthly do over in Discussions a few weeks ago, Sigvtar actually explained he'd had his recasts tested because he has young children and wanted to be sure.
They're technically slightly more toxic than FW resin, but not in any meaningful sense, certainly not to the point where he was concerned for his children or his own health.
It goes to the argument that what is sufficiently more toxic than resin to pose a threat once cured that won't kill the casters in short order, behaves like resin for casting purposes and is sufficiently cheaper than resin to provide an incentive to use it?
It simply isn't really possible to form a coherent and plausible argument in favour of recast resin being meaningfully toxic.
All i know about its physical effects is that its brittle and it off gasses like feth (but doesn't smell once painted and sealed)
Ether way im pretty sure recast sites are not actually legal or the Chinese government just doesn't give a skavens warpstone about it.
Talys wrote: @Az & Korinov - I actually meant the safety of giving your credit card information and your personal details to a vendor in China who you probably don't even know the identity of.
A popular recaster site shut down by GW last year has several posts on its FB page with customers who never got their stuff, and obviously things can be lost in the mail.
With GW/FW, they'll just resend anything lost, and PayPal protects you as well (though I don't recall anyone who has ever had to go that route).
My point though, wad that except for expensive FW models and (expensive) FW single model heroes, the recasters aren't really cheaper. With many GW kits, the prices are close (if not more, factoring discounts). And the quality is great on some, while iffy on others.
I'm fine playing with people who have knockoffs (a friend has more than $5000 of Chinese knockoffs -- though I'm pretty sure he ha three times that in GW stuff), so I get to see quite a bit of it. I just don't see the appeal, generally speaking, with the exception of a small number of big kits (revenants and knights being at the top).
Well, using the two main sites that recasters use, and I know for a fact this applies to direct order with at least one of the larger one, either Paypal or an equivalent system with, IMO, superior protection is the order of the day.
The seller never sees your card details.
As for prices?
Right now I can get any Primarch for around £15-18, one of my only actual recast purchases was a Sternguard unit, with 10 sets of legs to allow for a full squad, and it cost ~£15 including postage.
I will agree, the lower cost plastic kits (typically the troop choices) don't often offer much of a saving over buying from a discounter, but when you consider the price often contains postage, often still offer a saving.
All i know about its physical effects is that its brittle and it off gasses like feth (but doesn't smell once painted and sealed)
Ether way im pretty sure recast sites are not actually legal or the Chinese government just doesn't give a skavens warpstone about it.
Quality of resin and casting varies wildly, most of what I've seen (which isn't a huge amount, but enough to form an opinion) has ranked above the worst I've seen from legitimate sources.
There aren't really recast 'sites' (one or two maybe?) most sellers operate through marketplace style sites, but, no, periodically the game of Whack A Mole commences and the sellers get gak down, only to resurface once more some time later.
Talys wrote: My point though, wad that except for expensive FW models and (expensive) FW single model heroes, the recasters aren't really cheaper. With many GW kits, the prices are close (if not more, factoring discounts). And the quality is great on some, while iffy on others.
Not true. I have seen recasters list GW finecast products (such as the thunderfire cannon) for more than 50% off and zero shipping.
Rippy wrote: When I buy a bigmac I don't think "feth the little guy in a factory who made the wrapping and boxes for this meal". I am pretty sure this thought doesn't cross many people's minds when they are buying food. I don't even know the facts for that at all. I know that when Big W started using Bangaleshi workers, the public cried out at their expense, though a journalist simply going over there and speaking to the workers showed how thankful the people were for the influx of jobs.
Though when it comes to stealing other people's intellectual property, I have control over that. I know that the music, the miniatures, the movies are owned by someone who can rightfully get the money they are entitled to by someone making a purchase of their copyrighted product.
I guess what I am saying is, although factory workers in other countries having decent human rights is a big deal, and it hurts my heart that people are willing to exploit people for money is terrible, what can I do about it? Honestly, most products floating around in Western Countries are made in those factories. What I can do is not steal. See my point?
Outside of that one instance, most of these aren't just exploitations for money, its pretty serious human rights violations. And you do have control over that, in that you can choose not to buy an iPad (or Samsung equivalent) or eat MacDonald's food and support their corporate warmachine. But obviously, IP infringement > worker deaths and job outsourcing right?
Talys wrote: My point though, wad that except for expensive FW models and (expensive) FW single model heroes, the recasters aren't really cheaper. With many GW kits, the prices are close (if not more, factoring discounts). And the quality is great on some, while iffy on others.
Not true. I have seen recasters list GW finecast products (such as the thunderfire cannon) for more than 50% off and zero shipping.
I won't disagree that there are some items with some savings. However, usually, they are tiny in actual dollars. For instance, I just bought a Vulkan He'stan (finecast). $21.50 USD. My store gives me 30% off of regular stuff, 25% off of web order stuff. So, I paid $16.10. I could have probably gotten him for $11 from a recaster... But what am I going yo do with $5? I'd rather have 0 risk and support both the manufacturer and my local economy, and buy from someone I know and like.
Practically every plastic vehicle makes no sense recast, nor any multimodel kit, nor small walker. And you have so few ICs that the price hardly matters. The only two I can think of for GW kits are IK and WK, and then you're dealing with resin instead of plastic (riptides are cheap). Where it really makes sense financially is a FW titan, where you can get a $300+ model for $60-$100.
Talys wrote: My point though, wad that except for expensive FW models and (expensive) FW single model heroes, the recasters aren't really cheaper. With many GW kits, the prices are close (if not more, factoring discounts). And the quality is great on some, while iffy on others.
Not true. I have seen recasters list GW finecast products (such as the thunderfire cannon) for more than 50% off and zero shipping.
I won't disagree that there are some items with some savings. However, usually, they are tiny in actual dollars. For instance, I just bought a Vulkan He'stan (finecast). $21.50 USD. My store gives me 30% off of regular stuff, 25% off of web order stuff. So, I paid $16.10. I could have probably gotten him for $11 from a recaster... But what am I going yo do with $5? I'd rather have 0 risk and support both the manufacturer and my local economy, and buy from someone I know and like.
Practically every plastic vehicle makes no sense recast, nor any multimodel kit, nor small walker. And you have so few ICs that the price hardly matters. The only two I can think of for GW kits are IK and WK, and then you're dealing with resin instead of plastic (riptides are cheap). Where it really makes sense financially is a FW titan, where you can get a $300+ model for $60-$100.
To be fair most local stores dont hand out the 30% level discounts. its pretty close to the 40% trade rate for the business them selves. i think the best i ever see is 25% off online.
If everyone sold at 30% no one would be doing direct business
If you're getting 30% off from your local store, then that is hardly a fair comparison. Equally, as the top level wholesale is 40% off, if that deep a discount is what your store needs to do to keep business, I wouldn't forecast a long life for their business, retail on a 10% margin is near impossible.
To be fair most local stores dont hand out the 30% level discounts. its pretty close to the 40% trade rate for the business them selves. i think the best i ever see is 25% off online.
If everyone sold at 30% no one would be doing direct business
Yes, that's true. I buy an awful lot of stuff, which is why I get a nice discount, but 20% is really easy to find, and 25% is not hard to find. If you save up for black friday/boxing day (and are willing to put up with the crowds) 25%-30%, or even a tiny bit better is even possible.
On top of that, most local store that are owner operated will take cash and no receipt in lieu of taxes
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Azreal13 wrote: If you're getting 30% off from your local store, then that is hardly a fair comparison. Equally, as the top level wholesale is 40% off, if that deep a discount is what your store needs to do to keep business, I wouldn't forecast a long life for their business, retail on a 10% margin is near impossible.
I get 25% and 30% at the two local stores I buy in; both have been around since the mid or late 80s. I bet in any major city with a large number of stores I could get 25%.
By the way, walk-in price in my town is 10%-20% discount off of stuff for anyone,even if you buy like, $20.
To be fair most local stores dont hand out the 30% level discounts. its pretty close to the 40% trade rate for the business them selves. i think the best i ever see is 25% off online.
If everyone sold at 30% no one would be doing direct business
Yes, that's true. I buy an awful lot of stuff, which is why I get a nice discount, but 20% is really easy to find, and 25% is not hard to find. If you save up for black friday/boxing day (and are willing to put up with the crowds) 25%-30%, or even a tiny bit better is even possible.
On top of that, most local store that are owner operated will take cash and no receipt in lieu of taxes
I'm sorry, what? Not two pages ago you were claiming IP infringement is wrong, but this seems like tax evasion on the business' part.
I love Jrelly89's attempt at deamonizing everyone else on completely unrelated topics. Just because someone works in a factory in another country doesn't mean they are treated horrible, fella. Also, just because someone is getting taxes doesn't automatically mean it is tax fraud. Calm down mate, you are cheapening the "recasts is fine" argument.
Automatically Appended Next Post: All I am saying is, for better or worse, I have no idea who is making my beautiful samsung galaxy s5. I presume it isn't someone crying chained to a desk 22 hours a day, because these sort human rights issues aren't as ripe as they used to be. I trust Samsung until I directly hear EVIDENCE of their exploitation. I am not saying that copy right > human rights horrors, so please stop embarrassing yourself by putting words in my mouth I did not say. You have control to not steal and to not buy stuff from corporations in the chance that they might be exploiting their workers (recasters included ironically). It is your choice is what I am saying. You can immorally steal if you want too, just don't expect sympathy.
No, Rippy, jreilly is not saying that, you're actually doing exactly what you're accusing him of and trying to demonise his argument.
Large corporations are guilty of abusing cheap foreign labour, it is a matter of record. If you support those corporations with your purchases, yet condemn people buying recasts as immoral you're hurling inorganic projectiles in a heavily glazed domicile.
To be fair most local stores dont hand out the 30% level discounts. its pretty close to the 40% trade rate for the business them selves. i think the best i ever see is 25% off online.
If everyone sold at 30% no one would be doing direct business
Yes, that's true. I buy an awful lot of stuff, which is why I get a nice discount, but 20% is really easy to find, and 25% is not hard to find. If you save up for black friday/boxing day (and are willing to put up with the crowds) 25%-30%, or even a tiny bit better is even possible.
On top of that, most local store that are owner operated will take cash and no receipt in lieu of taxes
I'm sorry, what? Not two pages ago you were claiming IP infringement is wrong, but this seems like tax evasion on the business' part.
Yup. I personally don't care if the government doesn't get sales tax fir several reasons:
1. If the store shipped it to an out of jurisdiction customer, or I bought it from an out of jurisdiction vendor, it would be tax free. Just like if you bought it from an out of country vendor.
2. If I went to an out of jurisdiction event and bought product or prepaid gift cards, that would be tax free.
3. I actually practically never do this as I don't walk around with hundreds or thousands of dollars of cash. But on the odd occasion that I do, the store owner asks me if I need a receipt ("You don't need a receipt, do you?"), and if I say no, I always happen to get some money back. I don't even ask for it. It just happens. Certainly, that isn't a crime.
4. Whether my hairdresser reports their tip, or my waiter, or the FLGS storeowner... That just isn't my business.
Edit: To add to the list, if I pay a gardener, piano teacher, handyman, or any other of a long list of services and negotiate a tax price (quite often, THEY ask for it), my suspicion may be that they aren't remitting the tax, but this may nit be the case, and either way, it isn't my problem, is it? Even if someone like that provides me a service, I don't want the receipt, because what am I going to do with it? And if I guy models, likewise, I tell them to keep or destroy the receipt (unless it's credit card) because I there is a problem, they don't need me to drag the receipt back.
Azreal13 wrote: No, Rippy, jreilly is not saying that, you're actually doing exactly what you're accusing him of and trying to demonise his argument.
Large corporations are guilty of abusing cheap foreign labour, it is a matter of record. If you support those corporations with your purchases, yet condemn people buying recasts as immoral you're hurling inorganic projectiles in a heavily glazed domicile.
You are actually offtopic. In your opinion I am doing that. Cool.
Point still stands, recasting is illegal and immoral.
Azreal13 wrote: But buying them is only potentially one of those things.
Much like buying products from companies who employ child labour or use facilities that give their workers cancer.
Sadly, it's really hard to buy electronics these days and not have at least some part of it worked on by someone who is essentially being abused and is little more than a modern day slave.
Now, in principle, I totally agree with you, and my personality is such that I absolutely will NOT buy a product from a company that I know is extraordinarily egregious in its labor practices. But most of the times, I buy things being pretty sure that I'd probably object to some part of the manufacturing process if I looked into it. Mostly, anything manufactured in southeast Asia :\
OTOH, if things are made in countries with high labor standards and minimum wages, you end up with higher prices. Hard to have it both ways, huh?
Azreal13 wrote: No, Rippy, jreilly is not saying that, you're actually doing exactly what you're accusing him of and trying to demonise his argument.
Large corporations are guilty of abusing cheap foreign labour, it is a matter of record. If you support those corporations with your purchases, yet condemn people buying recasts as immoral you're hurling inorganic projectiles in a heavily glazed domicile.
You are actually offtopic. In your opinion I am doing that. Cool.
Point still stands, recasting is illegal and immoral.
Regardless of that point this is the way "pirating" works with music, model recasts, movies, games, and anything else.
Step 1) The product needs to be made easily available to the public. The less available it is the more likely people will pirate it because it's easier to pirate it. People, in general, follow the path of least resistance.
Step 2) The product needs to be reasonably priced. If it's not, then people will seek out the more reasonable price and or free downloads etc etc...
That is mostly it. When CDs and games started having crazy DRM put on them to prevent burning and copying people still just downloaded the music because it was the path of least resistance for the most reasonable price.
When music became easily available and they mostly stopped having DRM all together (when it was around it made it more of a hindrance for the people who were buying it legitimately then it ever did to stop the pirates) and they priced it fairly the music industry basically boomed bigger then ever.
You can spend thousands of dollars developing methods to prevent pirating just to have it circumvented within hours of implementation or you can adapt your industry,
GW shut down online retailers making it harder to get access to the product. They switched to cheaper to produce materials and then increased the price of their products. GW has done everything in the exact worst way to maintain loyalty to the product and/or to make their product accessible to the general market increasing the likely hood that people would turn to other avenues such as EBay and recasters.
I have like 4k points of nids right now. I bought NONE of it from GW. Every purchase was ebay. GW got not a single dime from me. I would love to go to my local store and buy some kits but when it costs me 10-50% less to buy online EVEN after shipping. GW as a company suffers.
IF GW took a page from the music industry and made their products more easily available at a better more reasonable price point then there would still be pirates yes. But those few that bought recasts at that point were never going to pay GW anyway. The vast majority would buy from the most reasonable readily available avenue.
It's not a morals thing. This is basic human nature. It's how every market ever works.
Azreal13 wrote: But buying them is only potentially one of those things.
Much like buying products from companies who employ child labour or use facilities that give their workers cancer.
Sadly, it's really hard to buy electronics these days and not have at least some part of it worked on by someone who is essentially being abused and is little more than a modern day slave.
Now, in principle, I totally agree with you, and my personality is such that I absolutely will NOT buy a product from a company that I know is extraordinarily egregious in its labor practices. But most of the times, I buy things being pretty sure that I'd probably object to some part of the manufacturing process if I looked into it. Mostly, anything manufactured in southeast Asia :\
OTOH, if things are made in countries with high labor standards and minimum wages, you end up with higher prices. Hard to have it both ways, huh?
So I guess it comes down to whether your own personal morals allow you to be comfortable with buying something that, as much as it may not feel like it, is totally non-essential to life, despite the fact the purchase will support a company that is, or may be, utilising unfair labour practices.
Just like buying recasts comes down to one's own morals and whether you're comfortable buying those instead of supporting a company who appear to be managed by the three stooges!
Talys wrote: @Az & Korinov - I actually meant the safety of giving your credit card information and your personal details to a vendor in China who you probably don't even know the identity of.
A popular recaster site shut down by GW last year has several posts on its FB page with customers who never got their stuff, and obviously things can be lost in the mail.
I don't know about that "popular recaster site". I do know about the ones I have done business with, as well as several who previously worked on another site. The first one deals via PayPal, the others site has a very safe and strict security, to the point the seller doesn't see a cent of the price you've paid until you rate the item you received.
As for the usual "buying chinese recasts is wrong, inmoral and theft!" coming from the dude with the iPad (made in China) and the red check shirt (made in Bangladesh), well, that's hipsterworld fer ye.
Talys wrote: @Az & Korinov - I actually meant the safety of giving your credit card information and your personal details to a vendor in China who you probably don't even know the identity of.
A popular recaster site shut down by GW last year has several posts on its FB page with customers who never got their stuff, and obviously things can be lost in the mail.
I don't know about that "popular recaster site". I do know about the one I have done business with, as well as several who previously worked via <DELETED> (and have recently been cast down from there due to GW's IP crusade after the Chapterhouse lawsuit fiasco). The first one deals via PayPal, the others dealt through <DELETED> which has a very safe and strict security, to the point the seller doesn't see a cent of the price you've paid until you rate the item you received.
As for the usual "buying chinese recasts is wrong, inmoral and theft!" coming from the dude with the iPad (made in China) and the red check shirt (made in Bangladesh), well, that's hipsterworld fer ye.
It rhymes with uh... Walmart, and at one time was a pretty significant home to 40k recasters Please delete the name of the place you can buy recasted products as I believe that's against the TOC.
I do not equate buying product made by cheap labor with buying product made by stealing intellectual property. I'm not advocating for either; I'm just saying they're different (international laws and treaties say so too). I don't think it's hypocrisy to have an iPad but rebuff knockoffs.
Frankly, I don't like giving my money to Chinese PayPal equivalents, because, well, I don't trust them as much as I trust PayPal. I don't think it's just me, either.
It isn't just cheap labour, Samsung have been accused of using facilities that have had such poor health and safety protocols that their employees have developed cancer.
They deny it, of course, but I guess we'll likely never know the truth.
Again, I struggle to understand the view that products made using components that may have caused cancer in the people involved in their manufacture is somehow less morally dubious than the purchase of recasts which it is questionable do any notable financial damage to GW, let alone physical damage to anyone?
I mean, I've bought recasts and I'm typing this post on an iPad, but I'm not seeking any sort of moral high ground as others have.
Rippy wrote: I love Jrelly89's attempt at deamonizing everyone else on completely unrelated topics. Just because someone works in a factory in another country doesn't mean they are treated horrible, fella. Also, just because someone is getting taxes doesn't automatically mean it is tax fraud. Calm down mate, you are cheapening the "recasts is fine" argument.
Automatically Appended Next Post: All I am saying is, for better or worse, I have no idea who is making my beautiful samsung galaxy s5. I presume it isn't someone crying chained to a desk 22 hours a day, because these sort human rights issues aren't as ripe as they used to be. I trust Samsung until I directly hear EVIDENCE of their exploitation. I am not saying that copy right > human rights horrors, so please stop embarrassing yourself by putting words in my mouth I did not say. You have control to not steal and to not buy stuff from corporations in the chance that they might be exploiting their workers (recasters included ironically). It is your choice is what I am saying. You can immorally steal if you want too, just don't expect sympathy.
I'm not expecting sympathy, but I don't think buying recasts should equate to me stealing things and murdering people in the process. Also, I play daemons, so I will daemonize whatever I want. Sidenote: the only person "embarassing themselves" is you, because you obviously have yourself on such a high horse that you can do no wrong.
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Azreal13 wrote: It isn't just cheap labour, Samsung have been accused of using facilities that have had such poor health and safety protocols that their employees have developed cancer.
They deny it, of course, but I guess we'll likely never know the truth.
Again, I struggle to understand the view that products made using components that may have caused cancer in the people involved in their manufacture is somehow less morally dubious than the purchase of recasts which it is questionable do any notable financial damage to GW, let alone physical damage to anyone?
I mean, I've bought recasts and I'm typing this post on an iPad, but I'm not seeking any sort of moral high ground as others have.
@Az - Hey, I'm not defending bad labour practices at all. I wish it didn't happen. I would pay more for products that weren't made on the backs on modern-day slaves.
I am biased when it comes to IP, though -- I write computer software for a living
The solution with an iPad is really simple. Sell it and get a Surface Pro 3, which is much better It's like uhhh... Wave Serpent vs. Rhino!
Samsung TV is much harder. I have Panasonic plasmas, but my future TVs are likely to be Samsung.
Talys wrote: @Az & Korinov - I actually meant the safety of giving your credit card information and your personal details to a vendor in China who you probably don't even know the identity of.
A popular recaster site shut down by GW last year has several posts on its FB page with customers who never got their stuff, and obviously things can be lost in the mail.
I don't know about that "popular recaster site". I do know about the ones I have done business with, as well as several who previously worked on another site. The first one deals via PayPal, the others site has a very safe and strict security, to the point the seller doesn't see a cent of the price you've paid until you rate the item you received.
As for the usual "buying chinese recasts is wrong, inmoral and theft!" coming from the dude with the iPad (made in China) and the red check shirt (made in Bangladesh), well, that's hipsterworld fer ye.
That is cute, love the name calling. All credability of your arguments just lost. The point isn't that we all do immoral things everyday, the point is:
Recasting is illegal and immoral.
I get that constantly bringing up "u loserz have a moral high ground yet you hate pandas coz you don't donate to bamboo planters" is the only point you have, though everyone is failing to be on topic here:
Recasting is illegal and immoral.
Rippy wrote: I love Jrelly89's attempt at deamonizing everyone else on completely unrelated topics. Just because someone works in a factory in another country doesn't mean they are treated horrible, fella. Also, just because someone is getting taxes doesn't automatically mean it is tax fraud. Calm down mate, you are cheapening the "recasts is fine" argument.
Automatically Appended Next Post: All I am saying is, for better or worse, I have no idea who is making my beautiful samsung galaxy s5. I presume it isn't someone crying chained to a desk 22 hours a day, because these sort human rights issues aren't as ripe as they used to be. I trust Samsung until I directly hear EVIDENCE of their exploitation. I am not saying that copy right > human rights horrors, so please stop embarrassing yourself by putting words in my mouth I did not say. You have control to not steal and to not buy stuff from corporations in the chance that they might be exploiting their workers (recasters included ironically). It is your choice is what I am saying. You can immorally steal if you want too, just don't expect sympathy.
I'm not expecting sympathy, but I don't think buying recasts should equate to me stealing things and murdering people in the process. Also, I play daemons, so I will daemonize whatever I want. Sidenote: the only person "embarassing themselves" is you, because you obviously have yourself on such a high horse that you can do no wrong.
Well it does equate to you stealing though, not murder, don't be dramatic. I never said I was on a high horse, and angellic in all my actions, you guys did that for me. I do many immoral things for sure, we all do. Though recasting is illegal and immoral. Therefore your actions in buying them are immoral. Happy little buddy? Or do you want to make the same offtopic argument which has nothing to do with this again?
How is it whenever anyone writes anything that could even be vaguely construed as some sort of 'name calling' they lose all their credibility, yet you post in the most patronising manner (little buddy, spelling things with 'z') and expect us to lend any credibility to what you say?
It appears hypocrisy is the definition of your participation in this thread.
Talys wrote: @Az & Korinov - I actually meant the safety of giving your credit card information and your personal details to a vendor in China who you probably don't even know the identity of.
A popular recaster site shut down by GW last year has several posts on its FB page with customers who never got their stuff, and obviously things can be lost in the mail.
I don't know about that "popular recaster site". I do know about the ones I have done business with, as well as several who previously worked on another site. The first one deals via PayPal, the others site has a very safe and strict security, to the point the seller doesn't see a cent of the price you've paid until you rate the item you received.
As for the usual "buying chinese recasts is wrong, inmoral and theft!" coming from the dude with the iPad (made in China) and the red check shirt (made in Bangladesh), well, that's hipsterworld fer ye.
That is cute, love the name calling. All credability of your arguments just lost. The point isn't that we all do immoral things everyday, the point is:
Recasting is illegal and immoral.
I get that constantly bringing up "u loserz have a moral high ground yet you hate pandas coz you don't donate to bamboo planters" is the only point you have, though everyone is failing to be on topic here:
Recasting is illegal and immoral.
Rippy wrote: I love Jrelly89's attempt at deamonizing everyone else on completely unrelated topics. Just because someone works in a factory in another country doesn't mean they are treated horrible, fella. Also, just because someone is getting taxes doesn't automatically mean it is tax fraud. Calm down mate, you are cheapening the "recasts is fine" argument.
Automatically Appended Next Post: All I am saying is, for better or worse, I have no idea who is making my beautiful samsung galaxy s5. I presume it isn't someone crying chained to a desk 22 hours a day, because these sort human rights issues aren't as ripe as they used to be. I trust Samsung until I directly hear EVIDENCE of their exploitation. I am not saying that copy right > human rights horrors, so please stop embarrassing yourself by putting words in my mouth I did not say. You have control to not steal and to not buy stuff from corporations in the chance that they might be exploiting their workers (recasters included ironically). It is your choice is what I am saying. You can immorally steal if you want too, just don't expect sympathy.
I'm not expecting sympathy, but I don't think buying recasts should equate to me stealing things and murdering people in the process. Also, I play daemons, so I will daemonize whatever I want. Sidenote: the only person "embarassing themselves" is you, because you obviously have yourself on such a high horse that you can do no wrong.
Well it does equate to you stealing though, not murder, don't be dramatic. I never said I was on a high horse, and angellic in all my actions, you guys did that for me. I do many immoral things for sure, we all do. Though recasting is illegal and immoral. Therefore your actions in buying them are immoral. Happy little buddy? Or do you want to make the same offtopic argument which has nothing to do with this again?
I'll admit to stealing as long you admit to supporting dubious practices and humans rights violations and that they are roughly the same amount of immorality. Then I'll be super happy, buddy.
I'll admit to stealing as long you admit to supporting dubious practices and humans rights violations and that they are roughly the same amount of immorality. Then I'll be super happy, buddy.
By buying my Samsung Galaxy s5 I potentially support dubious practices and potential human rights violations that is arguably roughly the same amount of immortality, even though it is black and white stealing/immorral when knowingly buying recasts, and only potentially when buying something from an unknown source.
Talys wrote: @Az & Korinov - I actually meant the safety of giving your credit card information and your personal details to a vendor in China who you probably don't even know the identity of.
A popular recaster site shut down by GW last year has several posts on its FB page with customers who never got their stuff, and obviously things can be lost in the mail.
I don't know about that "popular recaster site". I do know about the ones I have done business with, as well as several who previously worked on another site. The first one deals via PayPal, the others site has a very safe and strict security, to the point the seller doesn't see a cent of the price you've paid until you rate the item you received.
As for the usual "buying chinese recasts is wrong, inmoral and theft!" coming from the dude with the iPad (made in China) and the red check shirt (made in Bangladesh), well, that's hipsterworld fer ye.
That is cute, love the name calling. All credability of your arguments just lost. The point isn't that we all do immoral things everyday, the point is:
Recasting is illegal and immoral.
I get that constantly bringing up "u loserz have a moral high ground yet you hate pandas coz you don't donate to bamboo planters" is the only point you have, though everyone is failing to be on topic here:
Recasting is illegal and immoral.
Rippy wrote: I love Jrelly89's attempt at deamonizing everyone else on completely unrelated topics. Just because someone works in a factory in another country doesn't mean they are treated horrible, fella. Also, just because someone is getting taxes doesn't automatically mean it is tax fraud. Calm down mate, you are cheapening the "recasts is fine" argument.
Automatically Appended Next Post: All I am saying is, for better or worse, I have no idea who is making my beautiful samsung galaxy s5. I presume it isn't someone crying chained to a desk 22 hours a day, because these sort human rights issues aren't as ripe as they used to be. I trust Samsung until I directly hear EVIDENCE of their exploitation. I am not saying that copy right > human rights horrors, so please stop embarrassing yourself by putting words in my mouth I did not say. You have control to not steal and to not buy stuff from corporations in the chance that they might be exploiting their workers (recasters included ironically). It is your choice is what I am saying. You can immorally steal if you want too, just don't expect sympathy.
I'm not expecting sympathy, but I don't think buying recasts should equate to me stealing things and murdering people in the process. Also, I play daemons, so I will daemonize whatever I want. Sidenote: the only person "embarassing themselves" is you, because you obviously have yourself on such a high horse that you can do no wrong.
Well it does equate to you stealing though, not murder, don't be dramatic. I never said I was on a high horse, and angellic in all my actions, you guys did that for me. I do many immoral things for sure, we all do. Though recasting is illegal and immoral. Therefore your actions in buying them are immoral. Happy little buddy? Or do you want to make the same offtopic argument which has nothing to do with this again?
Your argument that buying recasts = stealing is like saying buying models off ebay = stealing. Either way GW doesn't see a penny from you. Making recasts, even making recasts of your own stuff is closer to stealing. The buyer has no place in that. If GW wants the market then GW needs to make their product more easily available and better priced. The only reason recasters have a market at all is because GW has made their product less and less available for ridiculous prices.
If I choose to buy a recast it will likely be because GW has made a crap ton of their models OOP for no good reason. The recasters have them though. For a fraction of the price. If I, the consumer, want that product, what is the most readily available option?
Your argument that buying recasts = stealing is like saying buying models off ebay = stealing.
That is simply wrong. Please know what you are talking about before posting. Reselling legal goods is fine. Purposefully taking part in copyright infringement is stealing. See that black and white line pal?
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Lance wrote:The buyer has no place in that. If GW wants the market then GW needs to make their product more easily available and better priced
So you don't like their pricing, so that gives you the right to steal it? No, it actually doesn't.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lance wrote:If I choose to buy a recast it will likely be because GW has made a crap ton of their models OOP for no good reason. The recasters have them though. For a fraction of the price. If I, the consumer, want that product, what is the most readily available option?
I already admitted this point is a hard one to counter. While still stealing, I can understand this point alot more if there is no other source for the models.
Your argument that buying recasts = stealing is like saying buying models off ebay = stealing.
That is simply wrong. Please know what you are talking about before posting. Reselling legal goods is fine. Purposefully taking part in copyright infringement is stealing. See that black and white line pal?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lance wrote:The buyer has no place in that. If GW wants the market then GW needs to make their product more easily available and better priced
So you don't like their pricing, so that gives you the right to steal it? No, it actually doesn't.
The difference is in the seller, not the consumer. It doesn't make YOU morally wrong for buying from the more reasonable merchant. It makes the merchant wrong for the theft. Again, ebay or recaster, GW sees not a single red cent from me. Me and GW have the exact same interaction regardless of where I buy it from. Which is none. Anything between the seller and GW is none of my damn business.
Your argument that buying recasts = stealing is like saying buying models off ebay = stealing.
That is simply wrong. Please know what you are talking about before posting. Reselling legal goods is fine. Purposefully taking part in copyright infringement is stealing. See that black and white line pal?
It isn't stealing. Please know what you're talking about before posting.
Stealing is just an emotive term people who are trying to take the moral high ground use because "stop infringing their IP!" doesn't sound sexy enough.
Your argument that buying recasts = stealing is like saying buying models off ebay = stealing.
That is simply wrong. Please know what you are talking about before posting. Reselling legal goods is fine. Purposefully taking part in copyright infringement is stealing. See that black and white line pal?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lance wrote:The buyer has no place in that. If GW wants the market then GW needs to make their product more easily available and better priced
So you don't like their pricing, so that gives you the right to steal it? No, it actually doesn't.
The difference is in the seller, not the consumer. It doesn't make YOU morally wrong for buying from the more reasonable merchant. It makes the merchant wrong for the theft.
So easy to wipe your hands clean of the responsibility of it because they are the ones selling it? Ha. "I was just following orders"
Your argument that buying recasts = stealing is like saying buying models off ebay = stealing.
That is simply wrong. Please know what you are talking about before posting. Reselling legal goods is fine. Purposefully taking part in copyright infringement is stealing. See that black and white line pal?
It isn't stealing. Please know what you're talking about before posting.
Stealing is just an emotive term people who are trying to take the moral high ground use because "stop infringing their IP!" doesn't sound sexy enough.
I can go through and change all my words stealing to infringing their IP if you would like. Symantecs of wording changes nothing of what I have said.
Your argument that buying recasts = stealing is like saying buying models off ebay = stealing.
That is simply wrong. Please know what you are talking about before posting. Reselling legal goods is fine. Purposefully taking part in copyright infringement is stealing. See that black and white line pal?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lance wrote:The buyer has no place in that. If GW wants the market then GW needs to make their product more easily available and better priced
So you don't like their pricing, so that gives you the right to steal it? No, it actually doesn't.
The difference is in the seller, not the consumer. It doesn't make YOU morally wrong for buying from the more reasonable merchant. It makes the merchant wrong for the theft.
Much as I hate to side with Rippy, you're wrong in this regard. If a company legitimately has a design and they patent it and make a claim, then copying and selling that design is wrong. The buyer isn't as immoral by buying said product, but still knowingly purchasing something that infringes on a companies IP where IP infringement is illegal is wrong.
Lance845 wrote: Your argument that buying recasts = stealing is like saying buying models off ebay = stealing. Either way GW doesn't see a penny from you. Making recasts, even making recasts of your own stuff is closer to stealing. The buyer has no place in that. If GW wants the market then GW needs to make their product more easily available and better priced. The only reason recasters have a market at all is because GW has made their product less and less available for ridiculous prices.
If I choose to buy a recast it will likely be because GW has made a crap ton of their models OOP for no good reason. The recasters have them though. For a fraction of the price. If I, the consumer, want that product, what is the most readily available option?
Knockoffs (such as handbags, golf clubs, and computer software) are NOT legal. If you operate a business in North America that profits from these, you'll have your inventory confiscated, and possibly face jail time. Remember Windows XP counterfeiters?
In fact, they are even illegal in China, at least nominally. The country just has a very strange enforcement policy, and foreign IP is not protected in the same way that domestic IP is. Go to Taiwan, knock off a LV handbag, no problem. Knock off an Asus motherboard, and you won't see the light of day.
The question is, in your jurisdiction are counterfeit/knockoff products legal? If they are have fun. If they aren't, have fun too... but know that you're breaking the law. You won't have anyone knocking on your door, but you probably won't either ripping movies off of bittorrent sites. But that doesn't make that legal either, right? In all jurisdictions with such laws, it makes no difference if the item is no longer in production, or if you wouldn't have bought the product otherwise anyhow (and therefore not depriving the IP owner of a sale).
Whether something is moral is another question entirely, and IMO beyond the scope of a forum debate. Many things like leaving a sustainable planet for future generations, or buying locally made products, or even religion are questions of individual morality. There's not really much point in debating them, because certain things, like cheating on your girlfriend/boyfriend might be immoral, but not illegal in most Western democracies.
I'll admit to stealing as long you admit to supporting dubious practices and humans rights violations and that they are roughly the same amount of immorality. Then I'll be super happy, buddy.
By buying my Samsung Galaxy s5 I potentially support dubious practices and potential human rights violations that is arguably roughly the same amount of immortality, even though it is black and white stealing/immorral when knowingly buying recasts, and only potentially when buying something from an unknown source.
Signed, Rippy.
So even in my attempt to compromise, you still white knight and wriggle out of admitting what you're doing is wrong. Stellar.
If you're in a country where it isn't illegal to buy them, and the seller is in a country where they're not committing a crime making them, is it still wrong?
(Answer: yes, probably, but you see how murky it can get)
I'll admit to stealing as long you admit to supporting dubious practices and humans rights violations and that they are roughly the same amount of immorality. Then I'll be super happy, buddy.
By buying my Samsung Galaxy s5 I potentially support dubious practices and potential human rights violations that is arguably roughly the same amount of immortality, even though it is black and white stealing/immorral when knowingly buying recasts, and only potentially when buying something from an unknown source.
Signed, Rippy.
So even in my attempt to compromise, you still white knight and wriggle out of admitting what you're doing is wrong. Stellar.
I didn't wriggle out of it. I said that I do it without knowing either way. I know your moral compass is quite out of whack, though this isn't a very morally sound thing to do, is it? There you have made the angel fall rofl. You guys are being White Knights as well, just for your own cause. It is pretty funny actually.
No, what's funny is you spitting insults at people, casting aspersions on their morality because they don't align with your (slightly dubious) beliefs in the same matters and then getting defensive when on the receiving end of similar.
This is actually quite an interesting topic when talked about without people like yourself preaching the word of IP, because the approach to IP varies all over the world. But tragically, when people mount their high horse and start wagging their fingers, then get gakky when people won't act the way they're supposed to, it tends to spiral off into name calling and mud slinging.
You're clearly aware of dubious labour practices in a number of industries, some of which have conceivably cost people their lives or their health, so can't claim absolution through ignorance, and yet still draw parity between that and somebody reproducing a few toys and not hurting anyone.
Azreal13 wrote: If you're in a country where it isn't illegal to buy them, and the seller is in a country where they're not committing a crime making them, is it still wrong?
(Answer: yes, probably, but you see how murky it can get)
"Wrong" is pretty vague -- but if you aren't breaking any laws, and they aren't either, it will be a legal transaction, I would imagine.
However, the list of signatories to various copyright treaties is extremely long:
Even if you limited it to TRIPS signatories (Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights), that includes by definition all WTO members (except those defined as Least Developed Countries, which get a grace period). As you can see on the grid, People's Republic of China is a signatory to all of the meaningful copyright treaties. They just choose... very slow, non-proactive enforcement if there isn't any money in it for them . Obviously, it is against the law, otherwise, Chinese recasters / knockoff manufacturers / software counterfeiters couldn't be shut down.
If GW looses no money in the production and shipping of the product because it wasn't THEIR product being sold Just a reproduction, and the buyer of said reproduction is purchasing it because GW has made the product inaccessible due to shutting down online retailers, prohibitive pricing, limited runs, poor ordering policy for brick and mortar shops, and any number of other things, then the buyer was never going to give GW the cash anyway. And thus GW has lost no money.
THAT is the point. A person who was not willing to pay $20 for a cd so they could get 1 song they liked and 6- songs they never heard before went to the net to find that one song for free because it was the only way the product they wanted was made readily available to them for a reasonable price. They were never going to spend that 20 bucks.
The music industry didn't loose his purchase, they never had it. They gained that purchase when they made the selling of individual songs constantly and easily accessed for consumers with a fair price.
People know that if they like something and they want more of it they have to support the people making it. They also know what they, personally, are willing to spend and how many inconveniences they are willing to shoulder to do so. The moment that money or the hoops they have to jump through crosses those personal lines the other options get the money/time.
You can call it immoral all you want. But it's in GWs hands to change it. They can reestablish the online market for their product. They can drop their prices. They can allow brick and mortar stores to order more product. As long as GW wants to make it more difficult for the consumer they will keep pushing the consumer to other options, illegal or not.
Azreal13 wrote: If you're in a country where it isn't illegal to buy them, and the seller is in a country where they're not committing a crime making them, is it still wrong?
(Answer: yes, probably, but you see how murky it can get)
"Wrong" is pretty vague -- but if you aren't breaking any laws, and they aren't either, it will be a legal transaction, I would imagine.
However, the list of signatories to various copyright treaties is extremely long:
Even if you limited it to TRIPS signatories (Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights), that includes by definition all WTO members (except those defined as Least Developed Countries, which get a grace period). As you can see on the grid, People's Republic of China is a signatory to all of the meaningful copyright treaties. They just choose... very slow, non-proactive enforcement if there isn't any money in it for them . Obviously, it is against the law, otherwise, Chinese recasters / knockoff manufacturers / software counterfeiters couldn't be shut down.
I meant wrong in a moral sense, rather than illegal.
Because, as we all know legal=\=moral or vice versa.
Azreal13 wrote: I meant wrong in a moral sense, rather than illegal.
Because, as we all know legal=\=moral or vice versa.
Yeah, in which case, I think the vast plurality of reasonable people would say it's "wrong".
In this case, I believe the Golden Rule of "Do Unto Others..." applies. If you made these designs, and you made a living off of selling the designs and derivative products, would you be ok with someone taking your designs, making derivative products, or outright copies, and selling them?
And by derivative products, I'm not referring to the Chapterhouse stuff. I mean, taking an exact product, making adding a rivet, and saying "see, different".
Azreal13 wrote: I meant wrong in a moral sense, rather than illegal.
Because, as we all know legal=\=moral or vice versa.
Yeah, in which case, I think the vast plurality of reasonable people would say it's "wrong".
In this case, I believe the Golden Rule of "Do Unto Others..." applies. If you made these designs, and you made a living off of selling the designs and derivative products, would you be ok with someone taking your designs, making derivative products, or outright copies, and selling them?
And by derivative products, I'm not referring to the Chapterhouse stuff. I mean, taking an exact product, making adding a rivet, and saying "see, different".
It's closer to "If I charged people 50 for something that cost me 4 and they were selling it for 20 when it cost them 4. Meanwhile I shut down 70% of my store fronts giving them the larger online presence, would I be surprised if I lost sales to them?"
I'll admit to stealing as long you admit to supporting dubious practices and humans rights violations and that they are roughly the same amount of immorality. Then I'll be super happy, buddy.
By buying my Samsung Galaxy s5 I potentially support dubious practices and potential human rights violations that is arguably roughly the same amount of immortality, even though it is black and white stealing/immorral when knowingly buying recasts, and only potentially when buying something from an unknown source.
Signed, Rippy.
So even in my attempt to compromise, you still white knight and wriggle out of admitting what you're doing is wrong. Stellar.
I didn't wriggle out of it. I said that I do it without knowing either way. I know your moral compass is quite out of whack, though this isn't a very morally sound thing to do, is it? There you have made the angel fall rofl. You guys are being White Knights as well, just for your own cause. It is pretty funny actually.
Even though you admitted knowing that Samsung most likely does some of these practices and that McDonald's definitely does. But sure, call me into question, because I'm obviously the dubious one.
It's closer to "If I charged people 50 for something that cost me 4 and they were selling it for 20 when it cost them 4. Meanwhile I shut down 70% of my store fronts giving them the larger online presence, would I be surprised if I lost sales to them?"
You could pay for 3 months of HBO to get Game of Thrones, or download it for free. Free is more fair, because how much does it cost for your one digital copy of GoT? Basically, nothing. Therefore you should not pay for it. Ditto for cable TV: just cut the cord and download, because the real cost is nearly zero so you should also not pay more than virtually zero.
The problem with this is that if everyone felt this way and voted to make it "right" (and legal) folks would stop creating content, and stop sculpting miniatures.
Lance845 wrote: If GW looses no money in the production and shipping of the product because it wasn't THEIR product being sold Just a reproduction, and the buyer of said reproduction is purchasing it because GW has made the product inaccessible due to shutting down online retailers, prohibitive pricing, limited runs, poor ordering policy for brick and mortar shops, and any number of other things, then the buyer was never going to give GW the cash anyway. And thus GW has lost no money.
THAT is the point. A person who was not willing to pay $20 for a cd so they could get 1 song they liked and 6- songs they never heard before went to the net to find that one song for free because it was the only way the product they wanted was made readily available to them for a reasonable price. They were never going to spend that 20 bucks.
This argument doesn't hold water.
Why did you buy that counterfeit Space Marine? Because Games Workshop made a game with Space Marines in it that you want to play. Because Games Workshop worked really hard to develop cool storylines for those Space Marines to make the ficiton behind the game cool. Because Games Workshop wrote a great book with all the rules and paint schemes for those Space Marines. Because Games Workshop made an awesome Space Marine model that you want to buy. But because you don't want to pay $30, you pay $10 to buy a copy of it that someone else made.
It's utterly false that Games Workshop didn't lose any money. They spent money on the GAME, they spent money on the MARKETING, they spent money printing the BOOKS, they spent money writing the FICTION, they spent money developing the WORLD.
Then the counterfeiter comes along, and he gets to take advantage of all that work Games Workshop did, steal all that, copy a model, and sell it to you for $10. It goes way beyond simply stealing a design for a model.
So even if you argue, "I wasn't going to buy that $30 model from Games Workshop anyways." By buying it from the counterfeiter you're still enabling theft.
If you're going to buy counterfeit models, at least own up to it. There's really no moral justification for it other than, "I can't afford the real ones and I really don't care if they're stolen designs and rip-off copies."
If you're comfortable looking at your awesome painted army, and knowing that none of your dollars for that army helped pay the writers, artists, sculptors, and everyone else who helped make those products... well I guess that's on you.
It's closer to "If I charged people 50 for something that cost me 4 and they were selling it for 20 when it cost them 4. Meanwhile I shut down 70% of my store fronts giving them the larger online presence, would I be surprised if I lost sales to them?"
You could pay for 3 months of HBO to get Game of Thrones, or download it for free. Free is more fair, because how much does it cost for your one digital copy of GoT? Basically, nothing. Therefore you should not pay for it. Ditto for cable TV: just cut the cord and download, because the real cost is nearly zero so you should also not pay more than virtually zero.
The problem with this is that if everyone felt this way and voted to make it "right" (and legal) folks would stop creating content, and stop sculpting miniatures.
Actually. I don't have cable, and go onto the internet to stream shows like Game of Thrones, Sleepy Hollow, Agents of Shield, True Detective etc etc... (easy enough to find anything you want to watch with a google search) and then, when the dvds/blu rays come out, I buy them. Because cable is stupid expensive considering I am already paying for what I want with Netflix, Hulu, and the web and then I gladly pay all of the shows I think deserve it with their hard copy releases.
And then the people I watch these shows with on the net also like them and often go out and buy them as well. That is 2+ sales of a hard copy, where the shows themselves make all their real money, while circumventing the overpriced services of Cable and HBO.
Netflix is wise to the way consumers are processing tv at this point and their move to producing their own shows is a clear directional shift. Things like paying for HBO are going to go the way of $20 cds. Watch.
Lance845 wrote: If GW looses no money in the production and shipping of the product because it wasn't THEIR product being sold Just a reproduction, and the buyer of said reproduction is purchasing it because GW has made the product inaccessible due to shutting down online retailers, prohibitive pricing, limited runs, poor ordering policy for brick and mortar shops, and any number of other things, then the buyer was never going to give GW the cash anyway. And thus GW has lost no money.
THAT is the point. A person who was not willing to pay $20 for a cd so they could get 1 song they liked and 6- songs they never heard before went to the net to find that one song for free because it was the only way the product they wanted was made readily available to them for a reasonable price. They were never going to spend that 20 bucks.
This argument doesn't hold water.
Why did you buy that counterfeit Space Marine? Because Games Workshop made a game with Space Marines in it that you want to play. Because Games Workshop worked really hard to develop cool storylines for those Space Marines to make the ficiton behind the game cool. Because Games Workshop wrote a great book with all the rules and paint schemes for those Space Marines. Because Games Workshop made an awesome Space Marine model that you want to buy. But because you don't want to pay $30, you pay $10 to buy a copy of it that someone else made.
It's utterly false that Games Workshop didn't lose any money. They spent money on the GAME, they spent money on the MARKETING, they spent money printing the BOOKS, they spent money writing the FICTION, they spent money developing the WORLD.
Then the counterfeiter comes along, and he gets to take advantage of all that work Games Workshop did, steal all that, copy a model, and sell it to you for $10. It goes way beyond simply stealing a design for a model.
So even if you argue, "I wasn't going to buy that $30 model from Games Workshop anyways." By buying it from the counterfeiter you're still enabling theft.
If you're going to buy counterfeit models, at least own up to it. There's really no moral justification for it other than, "I can't afford the real ones and I really don't care if they're stolen designs and rip-off copies."
If you're comfortable looking at your awesome painted army, and knowing that none of your dollars for that army helped pay the writers, artists, sculptors, and everyone else who helped make those products... well I guess that's on you.
Making a good product and having good business practices are two very different things. Apple makes a decent product. Apple treats their customers like total garbage. I would NEVER pay apple a single cent because of their business practice. GW has a fun game with interesting characters. They then over price their models, release their codexes with little to no thought about game design or balance, shut down avenues for their consumers to access their products, and throw their weight around going after people like Chapterhouse.
Good product. gak company. I don't feel bad for them loosing out on sales because of secondary markets. It's their fault for treating their consumers like dirt.
Lance845 wrote: If GW looses no money in the production and shipping of the product because it wasn't THEIR product being sold Just a reproduction, and the buyer of said reproduction is purchasing it because GW has made the product inaccessible due to shutting down online retailers, prohibitive pricing, limited runs, poor ordering policy for brick and mortar shops, and any number of other things, then the buyer was never going to give GW the cash anyway. And thus GW has lost no money.
THAT is the point. A person who was not willing to pay $20 for a cd so they could get 1 song they liked and 6- songs they never heard before went to the net to find that one song for free because it was the only way the product they wanted was made readily available to them for a reasonable price. They were never going to spend that 20 bucks.
This argument doesn't hold water.
Why did you buy that counterfeit Space Marine? Because Games Workshop made a game with Space Marines in it that you want to play. Because Games Workshop worked really hard to develop cool storylines for those Space Marines to make the ficiton behind the game cool. Because Games Workshop wrote a great book with all the rules and paint schemes for those Space Marines. Because Games Workshop made an awesome Space Marine model that you want to buy. But because you don't want to pay $30, you pay $10 to buy a copy of it that someone else made.
It's utterly false that Games Workshop didn't lose any money. They spent money on the GAME, they spent money on the MARKETING, they spent money printing the BOOKS, they spent money writing the FICTION, they spent money developing the WORLD.
This all rests on the assumption that you were both willing and able to purchase the product.
This is rather key when it comes to this whole notion. If they were not willing to pay $30 in the first place, GW is not out anything because they were never going to to get anything in the first place either way. If the consumer will only enter the market at $10, then GW is never going to be "out" anything. Now, if the consumer had been willing to pay $30 but chose instead to pay then $10, then you can say GW is out something. I realize that's an impossible thing to actually track, but it's a very important point.
For instance, GW's prices on Knight models at $140 prices them out of what I'm willing to pay for one. I will never purchase one at that price. If I buy from a recaster for $60, GW isn't "out" $140, because I would never be willing to spend that $140 on that product in the first place. However, if they were $90, I'd probably pick one oup. If I then bought the Recaster model at $60, when I was willing to pay the retail of $90, then there could be an argument that GW is out $90. (note: I don't own any Knights). Same principle with Rolex watches. I simply can't afford to dump $5,000 on a watch. If I buy a fake for $20, Rolex isn't out $5,000, because I was never going to purchase one at that price.
Likewise, in some places (not necessarily really GW specific but can be very important when dealing with things like books and music and movies), if there's no sales avenue where someone can purchase your product, then the piracy doesn't hurt you because you weren't selling there in the first place. Again, not quite as a huge a thing for GW (though can certainly apply in some instances), but when talking about Piracy in general its important to note. For instance, if someone pirates Game of Thrones, but it's not broadcast in their country and is not sold on DVD there, then does their piracy materially hurt HBO? No, as HBO is not present in their market.
Lance845 wrote: If GW looses no money in the production and shipping of the product because it wasn't THEIR product being sold Just a reproduction, and the buyer of said reproduction is purchasing it because GW has made the product inaccessible due to shutting down online retailers, prohibitive pricing, limited runs, poor ordering policy for brick and mortar shops, and any number of other things, then the buyer was never going to give GW the cash anyway. And thus GW has lost no money.
THAT is the point. A person who was not willing to pay $20 for a cd so they could get 1 song they liked and 6- songs they never heard before went to the net to find that one song for free because it was the only way the product they wanted was made readily available to them for a reasonable price. They were never going to spend that 20 bucks.
This argument doesn't hold water.
Why did you buy that counterfeit Space Marine? Because Games Workshop made a game with Space Marines in it that you want to play. Because Games Workshop worked really hard to develop cool storylines for those Space Marines to make the ficiton behind the game cool. Because Games Workshop wrote a great book with all the rules and paint schemes for those Space Marines. Because Games Workshop made an awesome Space Marine model that you want to buy. But because you don't want to pay $30, you pay $10 to buy a copy of it that someone else made.
It's utterly false that Games Workshop didn't lose any money. They spent money on the GAME, they spent money on the MARKETING, they spent money printing the BOOKS, they spent money writing the FICTION, they spent money developing the WORLD.
This all rests on the assumption that you were both willing and able to purchase the product.
This is rather key when it comes to this whole notion. If they were not willing to pay $30 in the first place, GW is not out anything because they were never going to to get anything in the first place either way. If the consumer will only enter the market at $10, then GW is never going to be "out" anything. Now, if the consumer had been willing to pay $30 but chose instead to pay then $10, then you can say GW is out something. I realize that's an impossible thing to actually track, but it's a very important point.
For instance, GW's prices on Knight models at $140 prices them out of what I'm willing to pay for one. I will never purchase one at that price. If I buy from a recaster for $60, GW isn't "out" $140, because I would never be willing to spend that $140 on that product in the first place. However, if they were $90, I'd probably pick one oup. If I then bought the Recaster model at $60, when I was willing to pay the retail of $90, then there could be an argument that GW is out $90. (note: I don't own any Knights). Same principle with Rolex watches. I simply can't afford to dump $5,000 on a watch. If I buy a fake for $20, Rolex isn't out $5,000, because I was never going to purchase one at that price.
Likewise, in some places (not necessarily really GW specific but can be very important when dealing with things like books and music and movies), if there's no sales avenue where someone can purchase your product, then the piracy doesn't hurt you because you weren't selling there in the first place. Again, not quite as a huge a thing for GW (though can certainly apply in some instances), but when talking about Piracy in general its important to note. For instance, if someone pirates Game of Thrones, but it's not broadcast in their country and is not sold on DVD there, then does their piracy materially hurt HBO? No, as HBO is not present in their market.
Lance845 wrote: If GW looses no money in the production and shipping of the product because it wasn't THEIR product being sold Just a reproduction, and the buyer of said reproduction is purchasing it because GW has made the product inaccessible due to shutting down online retailers, prohibitive pricing, limited runs, poor ordering policy for brick and mortar shops, and any number of other things, then the buyer was never going to give GW the cash anyway. And thus GW has lost no money.
THAT is the point. A person who was not willing to pay $20 for a cd so they could get 1 song they liked and 6- songs they never heard before went to the net to find that one song for free because it was the only way the product they wanted was made readily available to them for a reasonable price. They were never going to spend that 20 bucks.
This argument doesn't hold water.
Why did you buy that counterfeit Space Marine? Because Games Workshop made a game with Space Marines in it that you want to play. Because Games Workshop worked really hard to develop cool storylines for those Space Marines to make the ficiton behind the game cool. Because Games Workshop wrote a great book with all the rules and paint schemes for those Space Marines. Because Games Workshop made an awesome Space Marine model that you want to buy. But because you don't want to pay $30, you pay $10 to buy a copy of it that someone else made.
It's utterly false that Games Workshop didn't lose any money. They spent money on the GAME, they spent money on the MARKETING, they spent money printing the BOOKS, they spent money writing the FICTION, they spent money developing the WORLD.
This all rests on the assumption that you were both willing and able to purchase the product.
This is rather key when it comes to this whole notion. If they were not willing to pay $30 in the first place, GW is not out anything because they were never going to to get anything in the first place either way. If the consumer will only enter the market at $10, then GW is never going to be "out" anything. Now, if the consumer had been willing to pay $30 but chose instead to pay then $10, then you can say GW is out something. I realize that's an impossible thing to actually track, but it's a very important point.
For instance, GW's prices on Knight models at $140 prices them out of what I'm willing to pay for one. I will never purchase one at that price. If I buy from a recaster for $60, GW isn't "out" $140, because I would never be willing to spend that $140 on that product in the first place. However, if they were $90, I'd probably pick one oup. If I then bought the Recaster model at $60, when I was willing to pay the retail of $90, then there could be an argument that GW is out $90. (note: I don't own any Knights). Same principle with Rolex watches. I simply can't afford to dump $5,000 on a watch. If I buy a fake for $20, Rolex isn't out $5,000, because I was never going to purchase one at that price.
Likewise, in some places (not necessarily really GW specific but can be very important when dealing with things like books and music and movies), if there's no sales avenue where someone can purchase your product, then the piracy doesn't hurt you because you weren't selling there in the first place. Again, not quite as a huge a thing for GW (though can certainly apply in some instances), but when talking about Piracy in general its important to note. For instance, if someone pirates Game of Thrones, but it's not broadcast in their country and is not sold on DVD there, then does their piracy materially hurt HBO? No, as HBO is not present in their market.
So you're essentially saying that buying from recasting is a victimless crime.
Lance845 wrote: If GW looses no money in the production and shipping of the product because it wasn't THEIR product being sold Just a reproduction, and the buyer of said reproduction is purchasing it because GW has made the product inaccessible due to shutting down online retailers, prohibitive pricing, limited runs, poor ordering policy for brick and mortar shops, and any number of other things, then the buyer was never going to give GW the cash anyway. And thus GW has lost no money.
THAT is the point. A person who was not willing to pay $20 for a cd so they could get 1 song they liked and 6- songs they never heard before went to the net to find that one song for free because it was the only way the product they wanted was made readily available to them for a reasonable price. They were never going to spend that 20 bucks.
This argument doesn't hold water.
Why did you buy that counterfeit Space Marine? Because Games Workshop made a game with Space Marines in it that you want to play. Because Games Workshop worked really hard to develop cool storylines for those Space Marines to make the ficiton behind the game cool. Because Games Workshop wrote a great book with all the rules and paint schemes for those Space Marines. Because Games Workshop made an awesome Space Marine model that you want to buy. But because you don't want to pay $30, you pay $10 to buy a copy of it that someone else made.
It's utterly false that Games Workshop didn't lose any money. They spent money on the GAME, they spent money on the MARKETING, they spent money printing the BOOKS, they spent money writing the FICTION, they spent money developing the WORLD.
This all rests on the assumption that you were both willing and able to purchase the product.
This is rather key when it comes to this whole notion. If they were not willing to pay $30 in the first place, GW is not out anything because they were never going to to get anything in the first place either way. If the consumer will only enter the market at $10, then GW is never going to be "out" anything. Now, if the consumer had been willing to pay $30 but chose instead to pay then $10, then you can say GW is out something. I realize that's an impossible thing to actually track, but it's a very important point.
For instance, GW's prices on Knight models at $140 prices them out of what I'm willing to pay for one. I will never purchase one at that price. If I buy from a recaster for $60, GW isn't "out" $140, because I would never be willing to spend that $140 on that product in the first place. However, if they were $90, I'd probably pick one oup. If I then bought the Recaster model at $60, when I was willing to pay the retail of $90, then there could be an argument that GW is out $90. (note: I don't own any Knights). Same principle with Rolex watches. I simply can't afford to dump $5,000 on a watch. If I buy a fake for $20, Rolex isn't out $5,000, because I was never going to purchase one at that price.
Likewise, in some places (not necessarily really GW specific but can be very important when dealing with things like books and music and movies), if there's no sales avenue where someone can purchase your product, then the piracy doesn't hurt you because you weren't selling there in the first place. Again, not quite as a huge a thing for GW (though can certainly apply in some instances), but when talking about Piracy in general its important to note. For instance, if someone pirates Game of Thrones, but it's not broadcast in their country and is not sold on DVD there, then does their piracy materially hurt HBO? No, as HBO is not present in their market.
So you're essentially saying that buying from recasting is a victimless crime.
No, we are saying that buying from recasters is NEVER going to stop and is symptomatic of other factors. The degree to which the market is willing to put up with iffy quality, poor or no customer service, and potentially 4-8 week shipping times is directly related to the amount of bull crap that GW is putting people through to begin with. Their more or less wrecked relationship with the vast majority of their brick and mortar stores and utterly devastated online retailers has turned a lot of people away from GW to recasters and ebay. The recasters markets boom. GWs fault for not respecting their consumers and their partners in distributing and promoting their product.
Lance845 wrote: If GW looses no money in the production and shipping of the product because it wasn't THEIR product being sold Just a reproduction, and the buyer of said reproduction is purchasing it because GW has made the product inaccessible due to shutting down online retailers, prohibitive pricing, limited runs, poor ordering policy for brick and mortar shops, and any number of other things, then the buyer was never going to give GW the cash anyway. And thus GW has lost no money.
THAT is the point. A person who was not willing to pay $20 for a cd so they could get 1 song they liked and 6- songs they never heard before went to the net to find that one song for free because it was the only way the product they wanted was made readily available to them for a reasonable price. They were never going to spend that 20 bucks.
This argument doesn't hold water.
Why did you buy that counterfeit Space Marine? Because Games Workshop made a game with Space Marines in it that you want to play. Because Games Workshop worked really hard to develop cool storylines for those Space Marines to make the ficiton behind the game cool. Because Games Workshop wrote a great book with all the rules and paint schemes for those Space Marines. Because Games Workshop made an awesome Space Marine model that you want to buy. But because you don't want to pay $30, you pay $10 to buy a copy of it that someone else made.
It's utterly false that Games Workshop didn't lose any money. They spent money on the GAME, they spent money on the MARKETING, they spent money printing the BOOKS, they spent money writing the FICTION, they spent money developing the WORLD.
This all rests on the assumption that you were both willing and able to purchase the product.
This is rather key when it comes to this whole notion. If they were not willing to pay $30 in the first place, GW is not out anything because they were never going to to get anything in the first place either way. If the consumer will only enter the market at $10, then GW is never going to be "out" anything. Now, if the consumer had been willing to pay $30 but chose instead to pay then $10, then you can say GW is out something. I realize that's an impossible thing to actually track, but it's a very important point.
For instance, GW's prices on Knight models at $140 prices them out of what I'm willing to pay for one. I will never purchase one at that price. If I buy from a recaster for $60, GW isn't "out" $140, because I would never be willing to spend that $140 on that product in the first place. However, if they were $90, I'd probably pick one oup. If I then bought the Recaster model at $60, when I was willing to pay the retail of $90, then there could be an argument that GW is out $90. (note: I don't own any Knights). Same principle with Rolex watches. I simply can't afford to dump $5,000 on a watch. If I buy a fake for $20, Rolex isn't out $5,000, because I was never going to purchase one at that price.
Likewise, in some places (not necessarily really GW specific but can be very important when dealing with things like books and music and movies), if there's no sales avenue where someone can purchase your product, then the piracy doesn't hurt you because you weren't selling there in the first place. Again, not quite as a huge a thing for GW (though can certainly apply in some instances), but when talking about Piracy in general its important to note. For instance, if someone pirates Game of Thrones, but it's not broadcast in their country and is not sold on DVD there, then does their piracy materially hurt HBO? No, as HBO is not present in their market.
So you're essentially saying that buying from recasting is a victimless crime.
Depending on the willingness and ability of the consumer to pay.
Again, if the consumer doesn't have the *ability* to obtain a product through legal means, then the producer isn't out anything if the consumer engages in piracy because they don't exist int he market in the first place, thus, there is no harm.
If the consumer would/could never pay the producers asking price even if piracy were not an option, again the producer cannot be considered harmed because the consumer was not a participant in the market at the price point the producer wished to sell at. If 9 year old little timmy, who doesn't get an allowance, goes and pirates a video game he had no income or funds to purchase in the first place, where it the harm to the producer that was never going get a sale from that consumer in the first place? (NOTE: there is a difference if he *steals* a copy from a store, as the store has then lost merchandise it had paid for).
If the consumer has the ability to obtain the product and willingness to pay the producers price, *and then* engages in piracy, then yes, the producer is harmed.
See the point I'm making here?
It's important to keep these distinctions in mind. Piracy can be harmful, but you absolutely cannot equate every instance of piracy with a corresponding loss of revenue to the producer.
Keep in mind I cannot remember the last time I heard about someone pirating music off the internet. It is way to easy and way to fairly priced to just buy the songs legally.
Why would anyone go through the trouble to pirate it?
It's a dead avenue of acquisition or if it's not then the people who are willing to go that extra mile to download music were never willing to spend 1 dollar per song to begin with and were never going to pay them either way. The producers of the music haven't actually lost a sale.
GW is still trying to force us to buy $20 cds with 6-8 songs on it. Except they cut Sam Goody and the other music retailers out of it and want you to order directly from the Publisher instead.
The harder it is for the consumer to purchase and the worse the deal is the more likely people will turn to secondary markets.
If the consumer has the ability to obtain the product and willingness to pay the producers price, *and then* engages in piracy, then yes, the producer is harmed.
See the point I'm making here?
It's important to keep these distinctions in mind. Piracy can be harmful, but you absolutely cannot equate every instance of piracy with a corresponding loss of revenue to the producer.
Yes I see your point. But it still doesn't make sense. Under your model, it is impossible for a company to create a product in a set of circumstances whereby you are not willing to rationalize piracy from them.
For example, I am a game company and I sell a model for $100. Under your definition, anybody who cannot afford a $100 is justified in buying this model from someone who has stolen my design, and is selling it for $50. Now, let's say I am able to reduce my price to $50. Now, you would rationalize this once again to say that anyone who can't afford $50 should be able to buy it from someone who stole my design and is selling it for $25. Okay, I lower my prices yet again. Now I'm selling my model for $25. But if a recaster is willing to sell my model for $10, and someone cannot afford my $25 dollar price, you say they are justified in purchasing that counterfeit item.
And through all of this, you're saying that my game company isn't economically harmed? I'm trying to sell a $100 model for $25 dollars now. That's harm.
Furthermore, as a company where should I set my price? $100? $50? $25? You can rationalize stealing from me no matter where I set my prices. It's impossible for me to win.
It's still stealing. Just because Prada makes a bag and sells it for something you're not willing to pay (but you still REALLY want that Prada bag) doesn't make it morally justified for you to go and buy a knock-off for $30. Furthermore the companies that make these products ARE harmed economically by the process. The harm may not be DIRECT harm (your dollars aren't going into their pocket, as you've said) but that doesn't mean the crime is victimless.
If the consumer has the ability to obtain the product and willingness to pay the producers price, *and then* engages in piracy, then yes, the producer is harmed.
See the point I'm making here?
It's important to keep these distinctions in mind. Piracy can be harmful, but you absolutely cannot equate every instance of piracy with a corresponding loss of revenue to the producer.
Yes I see your point. But it still doesn't make sense. Under your model, it is impossible for a company to create a product in a set of circumstances whereby you are not willing to rationalize piracy from them.
For example, I am a game company and I sell a model for $100. Under your definition, anybody who cannot afford a $100 is justified in buying this model from someone who has stolen my design, and is selling it for $50. Now, let's say I am able to reduce my price to $50. Now, you would rationalize this once again to say that anyone who can't afford $50 should be able to buy it from someone who stole my design and is selling it for $25. Okay, I lower my prices yet again. Now I'm selling my model for $25. But if a recaster is willing to sell my model for $10, and someone cannot afford my $25 dollar price, you say they are justified in purchasing that counterfeit item.
And through all of this, you're saying that my game company isn't economically harmed? I'm trying to sell a $100 model for $25 dollars now. That's harm.
Furthermore, as a company where should I set my price? $100? $50? $25? You can rationalize stealing from me no matter where I set my prices. It's impossible for me to win.
It's still stealing. Just because Prada makes a bag and sells it for something you're not willing to pay (but you still REALLY want that Prada bag) doesn't make it morally justified for you to go and buy a knock-off for $30. Furthermore the companies that make these products ARE harmed economically by the process. The harm may not be DIRECT harm (your dollars aren't going into their pocket, as you've said) but that doesn't mean the crime is victimless.
Your caught up on the wrong points.
It doesn't matter that people are going to buy knock offs. They are. You cannot stop that. You can either 1) spend a bunch of money creating DMR or taking other actions that ultimately will fail to stop it or 2) you can appeal to your consumer base by making the product easily accessible and fairly priced and thus grow your legitimate consumer base.
It does not hurt your business as much as you imply. It shows flaws in your current business model that need to be addressed. There is NO WAY that 1 Chinese guy in a garage is producing models at the rate and quality you should be producing to really impact your business unless the rest of what you are doing is actively driving your customers towards him.
It doesn't matter if you want to enter the market at a certain price, and will only at a certain price, the point is you are willingly buying recasts which is infringing on GW's IP. It doesn't matter if you would never have spent the money on the real deal, you are not entitled to spend less on counterfeits, you are still doing the wrong thing.
Under your definition, anybody who cannot afford a $100 is justified in buying this model from someone who has stolen my design, and is selling it for $50.
He wasn't saying that buying it from someone who has stolen your design is justified. Just that it's not actually costing you a sale, because you weren't going to get that sale even if the cheaper option wasn't available.
It's not about whether or not people should be able to buy your product cheaper. It's about whether or not the product you are selling is seen by your customers as being value for money.
I'm trying to sell a $100 model for $25 dollars now. That's harm.
If you can sell that '$100 model' for $25 and still remain in business, it wasn't a $100 model to begin with. It was a $25 model with a grossly inflated price tag.
Furthermore, as a company where should I set my price? $100? $50? $25?
That's up to you.
You can price high, on the understanding that the higher you go, the more likely it is that people will look for cheaper options. Or you can price low, and leave less of a gap between your prices and the recasters. Or somewhere in the middle, and hope for the best.
And in any of those cases, you should be actively seeking to engage your customer base, and by doing so encourage loyalty to your brand... because that also goes a long way towards reducing the chances people will look elsewhere. People are happier to pay more to a company that they like and want to support.
As someone else alluded to, the music industry has largely stamped out piracy after years of trying to go the litigation route, when they finally realised that instead encouraging people to buy by offering their product in a different way to match an evolving market.
Yelling at people to stop won't make them stop. Making them want to buy the real deal will.
Rippy wrote: It doesn't matter if you want to enter the market at a certain price, and will only at a certain price, the point is you are willingly buying recasts which is infringing on GW's IP. It doesn't matter if you would never have spent the money on the real deal, you are not entitled to spend less on counterfeits, you are still doing the wrong thing.
Entitled or not, wrong or not, it happens. Deal with it.
One of the great things about capitalist economys is you vote with your dollars. You don't like the company or don't agree with their price. Spend your money else where. A secondary market pops up that you want to support.. do it. The IP holder can learn from that or not. ::shrugs::
I find this thread fascinating, because people seem to confuse what's legal with what's common practice, and find a way to justify something that is clearly illegal.
All of the following are illegal, as far as I'm aware, in every country in the European Union, the United States, and Canada:
- Downloading a song that you don't own
- Downloading a TV show or movie from a torrent site
- Playing an unlicensed video game
- Using unlicensed computer software such as Windows or Office
It really doesn't matter if you planned on buying the DVD later. Remember the MPAA lawsuits for bittorrent downloads? "I was going to buy the DVD in 6 months" was not a defense. It doesn't matter if you don't like the other 19 songs on the CD, you hate iTunes, or you think a game's garbage and you'll toss it after 15 minutes of play. It doesn't matter if you didn't know that the PC you bought had a pirated copy of Windows.
It doesn't matter if you couldn't afford or wouldn't have bought the $2,000 handbag; the $50 knockoff is still illegal.
All of those things are illegal. There may not be sanctions (penalties) due to weak enforcement and no particular desire to prosecute individuals, but it doesn't make it more legal.
So why try to justify it?
Why not just simply say something like: "I don't like GW as a company, so screw 'em; I'd rather give my money to a recaster. Screw them, but hopefully they scrape through just enough to survive, so that they can make stuff that other people can copy so that I can buy it from a recaster for cheap."
Or: "I really like GW products, but I can't afford them, so I'm going to buy their stuff from a recaster. I know it's illegal, but hey, I'm probably not going to get caught."
Really, anything but: "I really like GW products, but I hate their prices, and I don't like the company. That makes it totally okay for me to buy from someone who recasts it and sells it for cheaper. "
I respect either of the first two a whole lot more, because at least it's honest.
To be clear: I play with LOTS of people who pirate IP in some way or another. Download a codex, buy a recast, whatever. I don't really care that they do it, but it would bother me if they tried to convince me that it were legal, or somehow morally justified.
I would posit that there's a difference between "rationalization" and what actually is.
Sure, you can rationalize anything and abuse any truth, but that doesn't take away from the fact that these things still hold true.
Ultimately, you want to produce where marginal revenue=marginal cost. That is where you maximize profit.
If people still pirate from other parties at lower price points, well, you're never going to eliminate that entirely, but if you are producing at the above price point, then you're already maximizing your profit and you either were never going to have those people as customers, or wouldn't be as profitable (or even operable) at those price points. In this case, the *only* piracy you care about is those that are willing and able to pay your price, but aren't. Now obviously that's where it gets murky, but those are the only instances where you're going to face actual harm, and they're typically a relatively small proportion of the piracy population. .
Remember, your goal isn't to eliminate piracy, it's to maximize profit. If piracy exists, but your producing at the optimal point and you're selling your full production, then you don't care.
Now, there's a case to be made that GW has perhaps raised their prices too much, and that the piracy is the inevitable result of *NOT* producing where marginal revenue=marginal cost or that perhaps the point where such is true for the time being is simply unsustainable over the long term, both of which will stimulate piracy and result in lower sales over time, but the problem lies with the producer blaming the consumer is counter-productive. That's a conversation for another thread however.
EDIT: Note: I'm not attempting to approach this from any sort of morality, only trying to make the point that piracy does not automatically harm the original producer, and you cannot equate an instance of piracy directly with a lost sale. Much like Trespassing, yes it's illegal, but if I'm just hopping a fence without causing damage to get to the buss top, you're not materially harmed.
Remember, your goal isn't to eliminate piracy, it's to maximize profit. If piracy exists, but your producing at the optimal point and you're selling your full production, then you don't care.
This isn't entirely true. Adobe is the perfect example of a company which ignores profit efficiency. It prices products like Photoshop, Creative Suite, and Acrobat Pro so ridiculously high that it's hard for most generally honest people to be customers.
I understand that people pirate those products for these reasons. But why rationalize it? Just call a spade a spade, and don't t try to make it "legal" somehow because of silly high prices.
Or, do the smart thing, use GiMP, Corel, and any number of other PDF alternatives.
Talys wrote: I find this thread fascinating, because people seem to confuse what's legal with what's common practice, and find a way to justify something that is clearly illegal.
All of the following are illegal, as far as I'm aware, in every country in the European Union, the United States, and Canada:
- Downloading a song that you don't own
- Downloading a TV show or movie from a torrent site
- Playing an unlicensed video game
- Using unlicensed computer software such as Windows or Office
It really doesn't matter if you planned on buying the DVD later. Remember the MPAA lawsuits for bittorrent downloads? "I was going to buy the DVD in 6 months" was not a defense. It doesn't matter if you don't like the other 19 songs on the CD, you hate iTunes, or you think a game's garbage and you'll toss it after 15 minutes of play. It doesn't matter if you didn't know that the PC you bought had a pirated copy of Windows.
It doesn't matter if you couldn't afford or wouldn't have bought the $2,000 handbag; the $50 knockoff is still illegal.
All of those things are illegal. There may not be sanctions (penalties) due to weak enforcement and no particular desire to prosecute individuals, but it doesn't make it more legal.
So why try to justify it?
Why not just simply say something like: "I don't like GW as a company, so screw 'em; I'd rather give my money to a recaster. Screw them, but hopefully they scrape through just enough to survive, so that they can make stuff that other people can copy so that I can buy it from a recaster for cheap."
Or: "I really like GW products, but I can't afford them, so I'm going to buy their stuff from a recaster. I know it's illegal, but hey, I'm probably not going to get caught."
Really, anything but: "I really like GW products, but I hate their prices, and I don't like the company. That makes it totally okay for me to buy from someone who recasts it and sells it for cheaper. "
I respect either of the first two a whole lot more, because at least it's honest.
To be clear: I play with LOTS of people who pirate IP in some way or another. Download a codex, buy a recast, whatever. I don't really care that they do it, but it would bother me if they tried to convince me that it were legal, or somehow morally justified.
I didn't say I downloaded torrents. The shows are ALL hosted on websites to be streamed.
Besides that I was not saying it was legal. I was saying there is nothing GW or the music companies can do about it besides adapt their business to better meet the demands of their consumers. Talking about "legal or not" or "morally wrong or not" is basically a waste of time. What is actually happening is that GW is pushing it's consumers away. Those consumers will vote with their dollars.
Remember, your goal isn't to eliminate piracy, it's to maximize profit. If piracy exists, but your producing at the optimal point and you're selling your full production, then you don't care.
This isn't entirely true. Adobe is the perfect example of a company which ignores profit efficiency. It prices products like Photoshop, Creative Suite, and Acrobat Pro so ridiculously high that it's hard for most generally honest people to be customers.
I understand that people pirate those products for these reasons. But why rationalize it? Just call a spade a spade, and don't t try to make it "legal" somehow because of silly high prices.
Or, do the smart thing, use GiMP, Corel, and any number of other PDF alternatives.
I'm not trying to "rationalize" it, only trying to note that one can't equate every instance of piracy to a lost sale.
Likewise, Adobe isn't really selling primarily to individuals, but to organizations (businesses, governments, schools, etc). They don't really care about joe-schmoe pirating Photoshop for his family photos, that's not really who they're selling to in the first place. If you're a business however and aren't paying, then Adobe will care, notably taking "Forever 21" to court a couple months ago. Forever 21 had the willingness and ability to pay, and didn't, thus Adobe is taking them to trial, while Joe-Schmoe did not and thus they don't pursue legal action against him.
I didn't say I downloaded torrents. The shows are ALL hosted on websites to be streamed.
Besides that I was not saying it was legal. I was saying there is nothing GW or the music companies can do about it besides adapt their business to better meet the demands of their consumers. Talking about "legal or not" or "morally wrong or not" is basically a waste of time. What is actually happening is that GW is pushing it's consumers away. Those consumers will vote with their dollars.
Any website streaming that latest episode of GoT other than HBO Go is equally illegal, bud.
While I agree with what you're saying -- people will do it anyways -- the subject of this thread WAS, "How are recast sites are legal?"
I didn't say I downloaded torrents. The shows are ALL hosted on websites to be streamed.
Besides that I was not saying it was legal. I was saying there is nothing GW or the music companies can do about it besides adapt their business to better meet the demands of their consumers. Talking about "legal or not" or "morally wrong or not" is basically a waste of time. What is actually happening is that GW is pushing it's consumers away. Those consumers will vote with their dollars.
Any website streaming that latest episode of GoT other than HBO Go is equally illegal, bud.
While I agree with what you're saying -- people will do it anyways -- the subject of this thread WAS, "How are recast sites are legal?"
Which was answered with the very first post. The conversation shifted into this "what is morally correct. And what should GW do and what do we owe GW?"
We owe GW nothing. They earn our business. Or they don't.
Vaktathi wrote: I'm not trying to "rationalize" it, only trying to note that one can't equate every instance of piracy to a lost sale.
Likewise, Adobe isn't really selling primarily to individuals, but to organizations (businesses, governments, schools, etc). They don't really care about joe-schmoe pirating Photoshop for his family photos, that's not really who they're selling to in the first place. If you're a business however and aren't paying, then Adobe will care, notably taking "Forever 21" to court a couple months ago. Forever 21 had the willingness and ability to pay, and didn't, thus Adobe is taking them to trial, while Joe-Schmoe did not and thus they don't pursue legal action against him.
Yeah, I get what you mean about the lost sale. You certainly can't convert every pirated copy of Windows into a lost $100 (or whatever), which is what software companies like Microsoft like to calculate as dollars lost to piracy being kazillions of dollars.
Also, what you say about Adobe is spot on. Likewise, GW wants to shut down people making knockoffs, not people buying a $60 knockoff. For so many obvious reasons, the latter makes no sense.
Like I said, I don't actually mind that it happens -- I know it does, and will, unless GW (really, FW) prices their products much lower than they would be willing to -- I just wish people would stop trying to say that somehow, it's legal, or moral, or whatever.
Which was answered with the very first post. The conversation shifted into this "what is morally correct. And what should GW do and what do we owe GW?"
We owe GW nothing. They earn our business. Or they don't.
Out of pure curiosity, since Google doesn't seem to come up with much on the issue: are there countries where buying (not selling) knock-offs is illegal?
LordBlades wrote: Out of pure curiosity, since Google doesn't seem to come up with much on the issue: are there countries where buying (not selling) knock-offs is illegal?
Apparently Britain will confiscate imports if they can be bothered to look for those things and know what to look for. So basically no. It might be illegal nominally in many places, but it is impossible to prove that a person knowingly purchased recasts. So, again, no.
LordBlades wrote: Out of pure curiosity, since Google doesn't seem to come up with much on the issue: are there countries where buying (not selling) knock-offs is illegal?
Apparently Britain will confiscate imports if they can be bothered to look for those things and know what to look for. So basically no. It might be illegal nominally in many places, but it is impossible to prove that a person knowingly purchased recasts. So, again, no.
Same with USA and Canada. If you try to buy $5,000 of knockoff product, usually to resell, there's a chance it will get stopped at customs (this happens all the time, actually -- not with models, obviously). But for someone who buys a $60 kit, it's not nearly worth the effort.
Vaktathi wrote: I'm not trying to "rationalize" it, only trying to note that one can't equate every instance of piracy to a lost sale.
Likewise, Adobe isn't really selling primarily to individuals, but to organizations (businesses, governments, schools, etc). They don't really care about joe-schmoe pirating Photoshop for his family photos, that's not really who they're selling to in the first place. If you're a business however and aren't paying, then Adobe will care, notably taking "Forever 21" to court a couple months ago. Forever 21 had the willingness and ability to pay, and didn't, thus Adobe is taking them to trial, while Joe-Schmoe did not and thus they don't pursue legal action against him.
Yeah, I get what you mean about the lost sale. You certainly can't convert every pirated copy of Windows into a lost $100 (or whatever), which is what software companies like Microsoft like to calculate as dollars lost to piracy being kazillions of dollars.
Also, what you say about Adobe is spot on. Likewise, GW wants to shut down people making knockoffs, not people buying a $60 knockoff. For so many obvious reasons, the latter makes no sense.
Like I said, I don't actually mind that it happens -- I know it does, and will, unless GW (really, FW) prices their products much lower than they would be willing to -- I just wish people would stop trying to say that somehow, it's legal, or moral, or whatever.
I don't think anyone here is saying it isn't illegal (or those that are are insane), but rather that isn't as immoral or wrong as some people claim it is. Recasters aren't running GW out of business, poor management and an unwillingness to adapt to changing times are.
Vaktathi wrote: I'm not trying to "rationalize" it, only trying to note that one can't equate every instance of piracy to a lost sale.
Likewise, Adobe isn't really selling primarily to individuals, but to organizations (businesses, governments, schools, etc). They don't really care about joe-schmoe pirating Photoshop for his family photos, that's not really who they're selling to in the first place. If you're a business however and aren't paying, then Adobe will care, notably taking "Forever 21" to court a couple months ago. Forever 21 had the willingness and ability to pay, and didn't, thus Adobe is taking them to trial, while Joe-Schmoe did not and thus they don't pursue legal action against him.
Yeah, I get what you mean about the lost sale. You certainly can't convert every pirated copy of Windows into a lost $100 (or whatever), which is what software companies like Microsoft like to calculate as dollars lost to piracy being kazillions of dollars.
Also, what you say about Adobe is spot on. Likewise, GW wants to shut down people making knockoffs, not people buying a $60 knockoff. For so many obvious reasons, the latter makes no sense.
Like I said, I don't actually mind that it happens -- I know it does, and will, unless GW (really, FW) prices their products much lower than they would be willing to -- I just wish people would stop trying to say that somehow, it's legal, or moral, or whatever.
That's understandable, and in many ways I'd agree.
However, I will straight up say, on a personal note. I got into this game from grabbing a big huge PDF torrent years and years ago of GW books. Without piracy I probably never would have gotten into 40k, and I've since spent probably 5 digits on GW products over the years. I know my story isn't unique.It's not at all unreasonable to see some instances of piracy essentially as "Loss Leaders".
However, I will straight up say, on a personal note. I got into this game from grabbing a big huge PDF torrent years and years ago of GW books. Without piracy I probably never would have gotten into 40k, and I've since spent probably 5 digits on GW products over the years. I know my story isn't unique.It's not at all unreasonable to see some instances of piracy essentially as "Loss Leaders".
That's a very valid point. In high school, I wrote an essay taking a position that limited piracy was good for the software industry, and the CEO of Corel was once quoted saying that he would prefer a person pirate a Corel product than buy an Adobe product.
It neither makes it right nor legal, but it's a perfectly valid assertion, in my opinion.
Vaktathi wrote: I'm not trying to "rationalize" it, only trying to note that one can't equate every instance of piracy to a lost sale.
Likewise, Adobe isn't really selling primarily to individuals, but to organizations (businesses, governments, schools, etc). They don't really care about joe-schmoe pirating Photoshop for his family photos, that's not really who they're selling to in the first place. If you're a business however and aren't paying, then Adobe will care, notably taking "Forever 21" to court a couple months ago. Forever 21 had the willingness and ability to pay, and didn't, thus Adobe is taking them to trial, while Joe-Schmoe did not and thus they don't pursue legal action against him.
Yeah, I get what you mean about the lost sale. You certainly can't convert every pirated copy of Windows into a lost $100 (or whatever), which is what software companies like Microsoft like to calculate as dollars lost to piracy being kazillions of dollars.
Also, what you say about Adobe is spot on. Likewise, GW wants to shut down people making knockoffs, not people buying a $60 knockoff. For so many obvious reasons, the latter makes no sense.
Like I said, I don't actually mind that it happens -- I know it does, and will, unless GW (really, FW) prices their products much lower than they would be willing to -- I just wish people would stop trying to say that somehow, it's legal, or moral, or whatever.
That's understandable, and in many ways I'd agree.
However, I will straight up say, on a personal note. I got into this game from grabbing a big huge PDF torrent years and years ago of GW books. Without piracy I probably never would have gotten into 40k, and I've since spent probably 5 digits on GW products over the years. I know my story isn't unique.It's not at all unreasonable to see some instances of piracy essentially as "Loss Leaders".
This is another aspect IP owners try to downplay: piracy helps increase your visibility and future sales, especially in developing markets. I know a lot of people that have become honest buyers in fields they would have never gotten into without piracy/knock-offs.
Edit: I also heard the 'brain' behind one of the most successful simulation softwares in my field (hydraulics) arguing they only benefit from piracy of their software. They can come down hard legally on anyone making money or publishing research with a pirated version of their software at any time, so all the piracy does is allow private users to (learn to) use their software, thus increasing user base and potential sales.
GW games have just strait up insanely unreasonable barriers to entry. If you couldn't pirate the books easily to get an idea of what you would be getting into I have no idea how anyone would get into it to begin with.
Lance845 wrote: GW games have just strait up insanely unreasonable barriers to entry. If you couldn't pirate the books easily to get an idea of what you would be getting into I have no idea how anyone would get into it to begin with.
Lance845 wrote: GW games have just strait up insanely unreasonable barriers to entry. If you couldn't pirate the books easily to get an idea of what you would be getting into I have no idea how anyone would get into it to begin with.
Lance845 wrote: GW games have just strait up insanely unreasonable barriers to entry. If you couldn't pirate the books easily to get an idea of what you would be getting into I have no idea how anyone would get into it to begin with.
Legally with money.
Which is quite a bit more money than many are willing to part with just to get the basic reading materials, especially at the target age-range GW seems to be aiming for these days (13-16 year olds) who also happen to be amongst the most prolific demographics engaged in piracy, and amongst the least concerned with the legal/moral aspects of their behavior.
Lance845 wrote: GW games have just strait up insanely unreasonable barriers to entry. If you couldn't pirate the books easily to get an idea of what you would be getting into I have no idea how anyone would get into it to begin with.
Legally with money.
Which is quite a bit more money than many are willing to part with just to get the basic reading materials, especially at the target age-range GW seems to be aiming for these days (13-16 year olds) who also happen to be amongst the most prolific demographics engaged in piracy, and amongst the least concerned with the legal/moral aspects of their behavior.
Yes, luckily Lance is here to prove that very point!
Talys wrote: I find this thread fascinating, because people seem to confuse what's legal with what's common practice, and find a way to justify something that is clearly illegal.
All of the following are illegal, as far as I'm aware, in every country in the European Union, the United States, and Canada:
- Downloading a song that you don't own
- Downloading a TV show or movie from a torrent site
- Playing an unlicensed video game
- Using unlicensed computer software such as Windows or Office
Spoiler:
It really doesn't matter if you planned on buying the DVD later. Remember the MPAA lawsuits for bittorrent downloads? "I was going to buy the DVD in 6 months" was not a defense. It doesn't matter if you don't like the other 19 songs on the CD, you hate iTunes, or you think a game's garbage and you'll toss it after 15 minutes of play. It doesn't matter if you didn't know that the PC you bought had a pirated copy of Windows.
It doesn't matter if you couldn't afford or wouldn't have bought the $2,000 handbag; the $50 knockoff is still illegal.
All of those things are illegal. There may not be sanctions (penalties) due to weak enforcement and no particular desire to prosecute individuals, but it doesn't make it more legal.
So why try to justify it?
Why not just simply say something like: "I don't like GW as a company, so screw 'em; I'd rather give my money to a recaster. Screw them, but hopefully they scrape through just enough to survive, so that they can make stuff that other people can copy so that I can buy it from a recaster for cheap."
Or: "I really like GW products, but I can't afford them, so I'm going to buy their stuff from a recaster. I know it's illegal, but hey, I'm probably not going to get caught."
Really, anything but: "I really like GW products, but I hate their prices, and I don't like the company. That makes it totally okay for me to buy from someone who recasts it and sells it for cheaper. "
I respect either of the first two a whole lot more, because at least it's honest.
To be clear: I play with LOTS of people who pirate IP in some way or another. Download a codex, buy a recast, whatever. I don't really care that they do it, but it would bother me if they tried to convince me that it were legal, or somehow morally justified.
In my country there are some strange rules (The Netherlands) that it is not illegal to download it but it is illegal to own it, not sure if that is still like that now
Yes Rippy it is illegal in certain countries to buy recasts, but i can understand why people do it and not all people have the income to spend like other people. I just go another route buy some valkir from dreamforge and proxy them as terminators, my Leviathans can stand in as imperial knights and so on. There are other ways.
In some countries it is illegal to buy recasts, but now own or be gifted them. And if at the same time you decide to buy a banner or shirt from the same person, it is your right to do so.
Yes Rippy it is illegal in certain countries to buy recasts, but i can understand why people do it and not all people have the income to spend like other people. I just go another route buy some valkir from dreamforge and proxy them as terminators, my Leviathans can stand in as imperial knights and so on. There are other ways.
This proxys are more illigal in the eyes of GW shop owners than recasts, because they can't tell recast from original if it's have been painted and can tell you instantly that your proxy is not belong in their shop.
On the topic: piracy is present and only become stronger as GW drops production wxpences but refuses to drop prices. I think that the rules should be free, they could put their rules on their website and STILL sell their codeces for fluff and illustrations. Hell it is known fact that people are wwilling to buy even illustratin books without ane fluff. Free rules would attract more people into a game. An more: they could FAQed codeces more often, it is not expencive, it is not even timeconsuming, but they refuse.
I personally bought my own copy of codex half year after playing my first game, if I could not play without it, I simply would not start to play at all.
Lance845 wrote: GW games have just strait up insanely unreasonable barriers to entry. If you couldn't pirate the books easily to get an idea of what you would be getting into I have no idea how anyone would get into it to begin with.
Well, let's call a spade a spade. For a hundred bucks, you get a starter box with lots of models (which have fantastic hobby value), rules, dice, and templates. For $700-$1000 you can put together a pretty decent army. If you're shrewd, you can spend half that buying used. On top of that, prepared to spend serious time getting some models to look cool if that's your thing. That's the entry fee to the 40k club.
Now, you can say, "OMG that's crazy", because for a tiny fraction of that you can play StarCraft until your head explodes.
But, on the other hand, there is an endless list of entertainment that makes 40k look like the deal of a lifetime. People pay that much for a couple of hockey or football tickets without thinking twice. A season pass on a ski hill can be $1,500 or more, and you still need a crap ton of gear, possibly hotel rooms, and all that. A golf club membership can rock $20,000 a year (or more), and it's the same 18 holes and restaurant, y'know?
So, yes, relative to some things, it's expensive, but it's hardly had "insanely unreasonable barriers to entry". It's just a game where you play with a lot of toy soldiers, all of which take a respectable amount of time and money to get going.
Getting back to recasts -- recasts don't really fix that to any real degree. Pick any army other than Imperial Knights, GW will still be cheaper for the stuff in plastic, and you'll still not get out of spending $600+ to build a respectable army.
This proxys are more illigal in the eyes of GW shop owners than recasts, because they can't tell recast from original if it's have been painted and can tell you instantly that your proxy is not belong in their shop.
On the topic: piracy is present and only become stronger as GW drops production wxpences but refuses to drop prices. I think that the rules should be free, they could put their rules on their website and STILL sell their codeces for fluff and illustrations. Hell it is known fact that people are wwilling to buy even illustratin books without ane fluff. Free rules would attract more people into a game. An more: they could FAQed codeces more often, it is not expencive, it is not even timeconsuming, but they refuse.
I personally bought my own copy of codex half year after playing my first game, if I could not play without it, I simply would not start to play at all.
I've actually not seen a store tell someone to remove either a proxy or a recast before. Mind you, I don't really go to the GW store much. What you describe as changes are things that many people would absolutely love, but it won't ever happen with GW. There are lots of companies with games that do have free rules though.
Personally, I think a compromise would be significantly cheaper eBook rules (which have no printing or distribution cost, other than, possibly, the iTunes store).
I look at it as GW has caused this themselves by the continuous price hikes over the last couple of years, eventually people have enough of it and decide to try and find the cheapest way to enjoy the hobby they love. Not saying its right or wrong but if anyone is to blame is GW, I mean the amount of recasts and illegal downloads are testament to that.
Yup. I personally don't care if the government doesn't get sales tax fir several reasons:
1. If the store shipped it to an out of jurisdiction customer, or I bought it from an out of jurisdiction vendor, it would be tax free. Just like if you bought it from an out of country vendor.
2. If I went to an out of jurisdiction event and bought product or prepaid gift cards, that would be tax free.
3. I actually practically never do this as I don't walk around with hundreds or thousands of dollars of cash. But on the odd occasion that I do, the store owner asks me if I need a receipt ("You don't need a receipt, do you?"), and if I say no, I always happen to get some money back. I don't even ask for it. It just happens. Certainly, that isn't a crime.
4. Whether my hairdresser reports their tip, or my waiter, or the FLGS storeowner... That just isn't my business.
Edit: To add to the list, if I pay a gardener, piano teacher, handyman, or any other of a long list of services and negotiate a tax price (quite often, THEY ask for it), my suspicion may be that they aren't remitting the tax, but this may nit be the case, and either way, it isn't my problem, is it? Even if someone like that provides me a service, I don't want the receipt, because what am I going to do with it? And if I guy models, likewise, I tell them to keep or destroy the receipt (unless it's credit card) because I there is a problem, they don't need me to drag the receipt back.
So if there's a way around a law in existence, it is ok to disregard said law?
Paying someone cash for services and you not knowing what they do tax-wise later is a little different from someone asking "Do you want a receipt?" {Wink,wink} and you know exactly what they're up to.
Talys wrote: Getting back to recasts -- recasts don't really fix that to any real degree. Pick any army other than Imperial Knights, GW will still be cheaper for the stuff in plastic, and you'll still not get out of spending $600+ to build a respectable army.
If you haven't even bothered to check how much recasters ask for their product, why do you keep making these kind of statements?
As a matter of fact, recasters usually sell their resin replicas cheaper than GW plastic originals. Much cheaper in some cases.
I think that it's important to note here that, at least in the US, it is NOT illegal to buy or own knockoff products. You're actually discussing two very different things under the law when you're talking about music/software piracy and recast or rebranded products. Piracy is covered under a different section of US law. Here, I'll let the US Attorney's office tell you:
Subsection 2320(d) provides a definition of the term "trafficking." This definition is derived from a related, recently enacted statute, the Piracy and Counterfeiting Amendments Act of 1982, now codified at 18 U.S.C. 2318(b). Under this definition, the scope of the act is limited to commercial activities. Thus it is not a crime under this act for an individual knowingly to purchase goods bearing counterfeit marks, if the purchase is for the individual's personal use.
What is illegal is to "traffick" in such products which means sell/resell them. There was a pretty big case a few years back involving the "Purse Lady" she had sold over $1million in counterfeit designer bags and did some jail time for it.
That said. NYC actually passed an ordinance making the purchase of knockoff products illegal so if you live in NYC, you're subject to local law on the matter but the federal government could care less if you're buying recast GW products from China.
My personal experience, big stuff can be had fairly cheaply through a recaster but individual models/troops, you're better off getting at retail. I don't frequent a FLGS but when I did, I always supported them by buying items from them. I buy recast, large items for my own personal use; when I'm done with them, I throw them in the trash...oddly enough I do this with GW plastic models too, I can't be arsed to deal with ebay, trade or anything else.
Let's play a game. One of these things is not like the other....
Under your definition, anybody who cannot afford a $100 is justified in buying this model from someone who has stolen my design, and is selling it for $50.
He wasn't saying that buying it from someone who has stolen your design is justified. Just that it's not actually costing you a sale, because you weren't going to get that sale even if the cheaper option wasn't available.
It's not about whether or not people should be able to buy your product cheaper. It's about whether or not the product you are selling is seen by your customers as being value for money.
I'm trying to sell a $100 model for $25 dollars now. That's harm.
If you can sell that '$100 model' for $25 and still remain in business, it wasn't a $100 model to begin with. It was a $25 model with a grossly inflated price tag.
Simply costing you the individual sale is very narrow-sighted, however, and it doesn't take the big picture into account. Maybe you were NEVER going to buy that Warhound Titan, but seeing it for $100 was too good to pass up and you jumped on it. Forge World was never going to get your $800. That doesn't mean it was a harmless transaction. You're still helping to keep that recaster in business so that he can continue to steal designs and sell illegal copies of them. It's not a harmless transaction.
Regardless of whether or not your customers see it as being value for the money also doesn't justify the illegal stealing of designs.
In any industry like this, you are going to have a black market for goods. The black market will depend on the cost of the original item, the cost of copying that item, and the amount that copy can be sold for.
Prada bags are a great example. They are extremely expensive! But the raw materials to actually make a Prada bag are very very cheap! This means the black market can create a knock-off Prada bag for a very very low cost. However because the retail Prada bag is VERY expensive, they can sell that knockoff for fairly cheap, and STILL make a very high profit margin. Prada bags are also priced very high on purpose. The designer WANTS them to be rare, and WANTS them to be a status symbol. This means you have a ready pool of customers who would never be able to afford a Prada bag that are willing to purchase a knock-off instead.
If you can sell that '$100 model' for $25 and still remain in business, it wasn't a $100 model to begin with. It was a $25 model with a grossly inflated price tag.
I'm sorry, but this is just untrue. There could be HUNDREDS of reasons why I initially set that price-tag at $100. First off, it's not my job as a company owner to simply "stay in business". I need to make as much money as possible! If I'm a public company, not only do I have to make as much money as possible, but I'm beholden to my shareholders to do so! If I have to sell that model for $25, and I only make a $5 profit margin on it, sure maybe I'll stay in business, but it probably wasn't worth having the model commissioned to be made in the first place!
But I see where you're going. You're saying that if my profit margin was excessive enough that I can afford to lower the price due to piracy, then my profit margin was "too high" to begin with and I should have started at the lower price. That argument fails, however, because you could say that about ANY price that I set.
Granted as I illustrated earlier, the higher price I set, the more likely the black market is going to step in and steal my design. So that's a risk as a business owner I have to take into account when I set my prices. This is absolutely true.
When it comes right down to it though, you're not being a "smart customer" when you buy from a recaster. You're stealing. You can rationalize it however you want, but you're stealing. Such transactions are not victimless crimes. They hurt the very business that you're so passionate about. If you're OK with that in your own mind, then there you go. I'm not here to convince you not to steal. I'm just here to tell you to own up to it, and don't sell anyone else in this hobby some story about how it's not really stealing, or you're not hurting anybody, or there's nothing wrong with it.
There's a REASON copying stuff like this is illegal. It's wrong.
When it comes right down to it though, you're not being a "smart customer" when you buy from a recaster. You're stealing. You can rationalize it however you want, but you're stealing. Such transactions are not victimless crimes. They hurt the very business that you're so passionate about. If you're OK with that in your own mind, then there you go. I'm not here to convince you not to steal. I'm just here to tell you to own up to it, and don't sell anyone else in this hobby some story about how it's not really stealing, or you're not hurting anybody, or there's nothing wrong with it.
There's a REASON copying stuff like this is illegal. It's wrong.
Except, it's not stealing, according to the US Attorney's Office anyway. Morals will vary by individual but throwing words like "illegal" and "stealing" that are actually tied to laws is a different story. Please research/know your facts before posting incorrect information.
And now we've come down to arguing semantics about what "stealing" is and whether or not such activity is legal or not in the specific area in which you live.
Having sex with 12 year old girls might be legal in some parts of the world. That doesn't mean it's right and not morally repugnant.
The Chinese government doesn't pay for ANY software pretty much. They pirate everything! Obviously it's not illegal, the government is going it! Does that mean it's right and it's not stealing?
You know the designs are stolen. You know what you're buying. Whether or not it fits a crime in the specific area you live in doesn't really matter. You've already justified it to yourself. Either you've justified it to yourself to somehow think what you're doing is OK, or you think it's a wrong so slight that it doesn't matter and you're fine with it.
I would like to make a quick point here to clarify a couple of terms.
First, lets address one thing. Illegal !=immoral. These are not the same thing, and they cannot automatically be equated. Some things that are immoral are illegal and vice versa, but this is not always true, nevermind the subjectivity of morality in the first place.
Second, piracy is not theft/stealing. It's often referred to as such, because it's emotional and easy to label, but it is not the same thing, just as Battery is not Trespassing. If someone goes into a game store, grabs a model off the shelf, and runs out without paying, that's stealing. You have physically removed an actual item from the benefit and use of the original owner and they have a verifiable loss to record. Piracy has no such direct recordable loss. Violation of copyright is not theft, it's not stealing, it's violation of copyright. There's a reason they're not classed under the same laws or punished the same way or investigated by the same agencies.
Murrdox wrote: And now we've come down to arguing semantics about what "stealing" is and whether or not such activity is legal or not in the specific area in which you live.
Having sex with 12 year old girls might be legal in some parts of the world. That doesn't mean it's right and not morally repugnant.
The Chinese government doesn't pay for ANY software pretty much. They pirate everything! Obviously it's not illegal, the government is going it! Does that mean it's right and it's not stealing?
You know the designs are stolen. You know what you're buying. Whether or not it fits a crime in the specific area you live in doesn't really matter. You've already justified it to yourself. Either you've justified it to yourself to somehow think what you're doing is OK, or you think it's a wrong so slight that it doesn't matter and you're fine with it.
The rationalization will never end.
Why wouldn't it be "OK" if the law allows it? The only reason it wouldn't be OK is if I'm doing something illegal, which I'm not. Please don't assume that your particular mores apply to the greater world, you'd be surprised how much in the minority you would be compared to the majority of the population on the planet. If you feel that something like this is wrong, from your particular upbringing/school of thought, that's all well and good but realize your particular world view is a microcosm when compared to the word.
Copyright infringement is not theft. I don't know where you are getting this concept from but a recaster is in no way prohibiting GW from selling their product, theft would mean that they snuck into the factory and took all the molds, designs and files to permanently depriveGW of their creation. I get that you think this is stealing but the law clearly disagrees with your interpretation.
Vaktathi wrote: I would like to make a quick point here to clarify a couple of terms.
First, lets address one thing. Illegal !=immoral. These are not the same thing, and they cannot automatically be equated. Some things that are immoral are illegal and vice versa, but this is not always true, nevermind the subjectivity of morality in the first place.
Second, piracy is not theft/stealing. It's often referred to as such, because it's emotional and easy to label, but it is not the same thing, just as Battery is not Trespassing. If someone goes into a game store, grabs a model off the shelf, and runs out without paying, that's stealing. You have physically removed an actual item from the benefit and use of the original owner and they have a verifiable loss to record. Piracy has no such direct recordable loss. Violation of copyright is not theft, it's not stealing, it's violation of copyright. There's a reason they're not classed under the same laws or punished the same way or investigated by the same agencies.
Thank you. I'm pretty sure that's why stealing gets thrown around so much with recasts because of the emotional label. But Vaktathi is right, there is a clear difference, hence why IP infringement usually results in a fine with no jail time (usually), where as stealing/theft is usually a minimum jail sentence with no fine.
Yup. I personally don't care if the government doesn't get sales tax fir several reasons:
1. If the store shipped it to an out of jurisdiction customer, or I bought it from an out of jurisdiction vendor, it would be tax free. Just like if you bought it from an out of country vendor.
2. If I went to an out of jurisdiction event and bought product or prepaid gift cards, that would be tax free.
3. I actually practically never do this as I don't walk around with hundreds or thousands of dollars of cash. But on the odd occasion that I do, the store owner asks me if I need a receipt ("You don't need a receipt, do you?"), and if I say no, I always happen to get some money back. I don't even ask for it. It just happens. Certainly, that isn't a crime.
4. Whether my hairdresser reports their tip, or my waiter, or the FLGS storeowner... That just isn't my business.
Edit: To add to the list, if I pay a gardener, piano teacher, handyman, or any other of a long list of services and negotiate a tax price (quite often, THEY ask for it), my suspicion may be that they aren't remitting the tax, but this may nit be the case, and either way, it isn't my problem, is it? Even if someone like that provides me a service, I don't want the receipt, because what am I going to do with it? And if I guy models, likewise, I tell them to keep or destroy the receipt (unless it's credit card) because I there is a problem, they don't need me to drag the receipt back.
So if there's a way around a law in existence, it is ok to disregard said law?
Paying someone cash for services and you not knowing what they do tax-wise later is a little different from someone asking "Do you want a receipt?" {Wink,wink} and you know exactly what they're up to.
Tax evasion is fine, but recasts are wrong. Now who's rationalizing?
That's the nature of morality though, different people have different lines in the sand.
For some, they're ok with what they consider mild tax evasion, but not buying recasts. Someone else may view speeding as ok, but take issue with even the slightest attempt to avoid paying tax, etc, etc.
As I said a few pages back, it all boils down to either you're ok with the morality of buying recasts or you're not, either is fine. What I won't stand for is people trying to cast themselves as some sort of moral superior on the topic when they're possibly guilty of what others may view as even greater transgressions of morality simply because their line in the sand is somewhere different.
It's not impossible that China or Russia would crack down on recasters/ piracy, just highly unlikely.
I remember from the mid 80s and into the early 90s building up a massive music collection due to Dubai's music shops selling the pirate "Thomsun Originals" cassettes. Buy 10 tapes and get a free case for them. Pirate VHS copies of films were freely available not to mention genuine 'ticking' Rolex watches.
Then, it must have been late 90s, I think the UAE signed up to some trade agreements as part of their expansion and that type of trade was virtually killed off.
As I said, unlikely to happen with China, they are just too big.
Nowadays, being older and wiser I won't knowingly purchase any thing recast. I just believe that those who create deserve the rewards. If the item is too expensive, they don't get my business and I go for a cheaper 'counts as' or do without.
A naive point of view? Possibly.
A bit Black and White? Yup.
But hey, I'm the only one who moves to the beat of my wargaming drum.
Yup. I personally don't care if the government doesn't get sales tax fir several reasons:
1. If the store shipped it to an out of jurisdiction customer, or I bought it from an out of jurisdiction vendor, it would be tax free. Just like if you bought it from an out of country vendor.
2. If I went to an out of jurisdiction event and bought product or prepaid gift cards, that would be tax free.
3. I actually practically never do this as I don't walk around with hundreds or thousands of dollars of cash. But on the odd occasion that I do, the store owner asks me if I need a receipt ("You don't need a receipt, do you?"), and if I say no, I always happen to get some money back. I don't even ask for it. It just happens. Certainly, that isn't a crime.
4. Whether my hairdresser reports their tip, or my waiter, or the FLGS storeowner... That just isn't my business.
Edit: To add to the list, if I pay a gardener, piano teacher, handyman, or any other of a long list of services and negotiate a tax price (quite often, THEY ask for it), my suspicion may be that they aren't remitting the tax, but this may nit be the case, and either way, it isn't my problem, is it? Even if someone like that provides me a service, I don't want the receipt, because what am I going to do with it? And if I guy models, likewise, I tell them to keep or destroy the receipt (unless it's credit card) because I there is a problem, they don't need me to drag the receipt back.
So if there's a way around a law in existence, it is ok to disregard said law? Paying someone cash for services and you not knowing what they do tax-wise later is a little different from someone asking "Do you want a receipt?" {Wink,wink} and you know exactly what they're up to.
Tax evasion is fine, but recasts are wrong. Now who's rationalizing?
They are BOTH wrong. I'm not suggesting otherwise. I'm just saying: be honest about it.
If you like recasts, say, "I like recasts, even though I know it's theft of IP". Great, good on ya. (this is not me, simply because I like supporting the artists and companies that employ them; I would rather not own something I feel is overpriced, than to buy a knockoff)
If you like to pay cash and avoid sales tax, say, "I hate paying sales tax, so I avoid it whenever possible, even though I know that I'm breaking the law." Good on ya too. (this is not me. I'm happy to violate the spirit of the law, but never the letter of it. In other words, I may be ok with doing something morally wrong, but not ok with being legally wrong.)
If you jump through hoops to avoid sales tax, like buying out of jurisdiction, that's fine too. Just say, "I hate paying sales tax, but I don't want to break the law, so I'll go out of my way to avoid it." (mostly, this is me; if there's a LEGAL way to avoid tax without *ME* breaking the law -- that's also not inconvenient -- I'm happy to do so, even knowing that it's ethically wrong and that I'm harming my community)
Rationalizing is when you say, "GW charges too much so they wouldn't get my sale, so they aren't losing anything from me buying from a recaster, so there's nothing wrong with it at all." Because factually, that's untrue.
See, I am not sitting on a high horse at all. I happily acknowledge that I'm morally corrupt of character (though by all accounts, a pretty nice guy) I'm unwilling to break the law of the land, because I believe in the advantage of living in a nation of laws. But I'm perfectly happy to take every advantage possible within it. There are limits, to that of course, but generally speaking, that's me
It's not impossible that China or Russia would crack down on recasters/ piracy, just highly unlikely.
It IS illegal to do such things in China and Russia, and GW, Microsoft and any number of other companies enforce their IP regularly there and stop counterfeiters. China and Russia just don't go out looking for counterfeiters, but that also has to do with the injured party not being Chinese or Russian.
The funny thing is that most of the FW recasts are better quality than the original. out of the recasts that I've bought only the elysian and dkok have major recast lines that need filing; the knights, thunderbolt, knarloc, XV9, ork bikers, arvus lighter, hydra, macharius, lightning etc are all in good shape. especially the Hydra as it was a well known fact that FW Hydra barrels are always warped.
I've bought the tantalus, tallarns, leman russ turrets, XV81,84, 89, XV9, elysians, avenger, vulture, tetra, sentinel etc. from FW.
In the end of the day, it comes down to affordability and quality, FW isn't always at the top in quality. Other times is FW discontinue a model that I wanted for a long time and finally able to afford it, so I get it where I can. I sleep just fine knowing I buy from recasts as I see them as a business just like FW.
Big Mac wrote: The funny thing is that most of the FW recasts are better quality than the original. out of the recasts that I've bought only the elysian and dkok have major recast lines that need filing; the knights, thunderbolt, knarloc, XV9, ork bikers, arvus lighter, hydra, macharius, lightning etc are all in good shape. especially the Hydra as it was a well known fact that FW Hydra barrels are always warped.
I've bought the tantalus, tallarns, leman russ turrets, XV81,84, 89, XV9, elysians, avenger, vulture, tetra, sentinel etc. from FW.
In the end of the day, it comes down to affordability and quality, FW isn't always at the top in quality. Other times is FW discontinue a model that I wanted for a long time and finally able to afford it, so I get it where I can. I sleep just fine knowing I buy from recasts as I see them as a business just like FW.
My Spartan Assault tank arrived yesterday. Pretty much 0 mould lines. Tiny but of flash. Nothing bent. Nothing warped. Nothing missing. Nothing needs fillig. I doubt recasters could do a better job haha.
Photos going up on my blog tomorrow.
Big Mac wrote: The funny thing is that most of the FW recasts are better quality than the original. out of the recasts that I've bought only the elysian and dkok have major recast lines that need filing; the knights, thunderbolt, knarloc, XV9, ork bikers, arvus lighter, hydra, macharius, lightning etc are all in good shape. especially the Hydra as it was a well known fact that FW Hydra barrels are always warped.
I've bought the tantalus, tallarns, leman russ turrets, XV81,84, 89, XV9, elysians, avenger, vulture, tetra, sentinel etc. from FW.
In the end of the day, it comes down to affordability and quality, FW isn't always at the top in quality. Other times is FW discontinue a model that I wanted for a long time and finally able to afford it, so I get it where I can. I sleep just fine knowing I buy from recasts as I see them as a business just like FW.
My Spartan Assault tank arrived yesterday. Pretty much 0 mould lines. Tiny but of flash. Nothing bent. Nothing warped. Nothing missing. Nothing needs fillig. I doubt recasters could do a better job haha.
Photos going up on my blog tomorrow.
I would disagree. I have a friend who buys lots of Tau recasts and some of those recasts are pretty damn good.
I can never understand why people who don't buy recasts have such venom for those who do.
I've found that the re-casts require more work to get them to the same condition as genuine ones so i see it as paying to save time more than anything.
I wonder why FW don't give you a certificate of authenticity with every model, not just the warhound and larger?
The warhound COA was quite good, i'm going to frame mine at some point.
Rippy wrote: My Spartan Assault tank arrived yesterday. Pretty much 0 mould lines. Tiny but of flash. Nothing bent. Nothing warped. Nothing missing. Nothing needs fillig. I doubt recasters could do a better job haha.
Photos going up on my blog tomorrow.
People who have bought from good recasters tend to differ. But hey, since you have never held a filthy recasted model in your hands, feel free to let your imagination flow
Big Mac wrote: The funny thing is that most of the FW recasts are better quality than the original. out of the recasts that I've bought only the elysian and dkok have major recast lines that need filing; the knights, thunderbolt, knarloc, XV9, ork bikers, arvus lighter, hydra, macharius, lightning etc are all in good shape. especially the Hydra as it was a well known fact that FW Hydra barrels are always warped.
I've bought the tantalus, tallarns, leman russ turrets, XV81,84, 89, XV9, elysians, avenger, vulture, tetra, sentinel etc. from FW.
In the end of the day, it comes down to affordability and quality, FW isn't always at the top in quality. Other times is FW discontinue a model that I wanted for a long time and finally able to afford it, so I get it where I can. I sleep just fine knowing I buy from recasts as I see them as a business just like FW.
My Spartan Assault tank arrived yesterday. Pretty much 0 mould lines. Tiny but of flash. Nothing bent. Nothing warped. Nothing missing. Nothing needs fillig. I doubt recasters could do a better job haha.
Photos going up on my blog tomorrow.
A lot of it depends very much on the specific kit, newer kits, and those that are relatively simple blocks (like Spartans) are usually pretty good from FW. If you've never had to deal with a FW Hydra, count your lucky stars, because they were atrocious, and yes, the recasts I've seen have all generally been much better quality.
Another thing I'd like to mention is that often recasters are the best source of OOP models. Where is one going to find Kasrkin? GW doesn't make them anymore. You can either go for an expensive 2nd hand set on ebay, or a recaster. Either way, GW is no longer selling that product.
Rippy wrote: My Spartan Assault tank arrived yesterday. Pretty much 0 mould lines. Tiny but of flash. Nothing bent. Nothing warped. Nothing missing. Nothing needs fillig. I doubt recasters could do a better job haha.
Photos going up on my blog tomorrow.
People who have bought from good recasters tend to differ. But hey, since you have never held a filthy recasted model in your hands, feel free to let your imagination flow
Ooh, what if he has? If it was painted, he'd never have known.
Now, there's a thought to keep one awake at night!
SirDonlad wrote: I can never understand why people who don't buy recasts have such venom for those who do.
I've found that the re-casts require more work to get them to the same condition as genuine ones so i see it as paying to save time more than anything.
I wonder why FW don't give you a certificate of authenticity with every model, not just the warhound and larger?
The warhound COA was quite good, i'm going to frame mine at some point.
I think that IRL, it is much less of an issue than in forums where people are bored, killing time in the world's longest Costco line (me right now). When was the last time at someone got worked up over a recast model on a gaming table?
Anyways, I hold no animosity or disdain for those who choose that route; I do lack respect for those who try to morally justify it, because, hey man, if you wanna be a gangster, have some balls and show your cuts.
Rippy wrote: My Spartan Assault tank arrived yesterday. Pretty much 0 mould lines. Tiny but of flash. Nothing bent. Nothing warped. Nothing missing. Nothing needs fillig. I doubt recasters could do a better job haha.
Photos going up on my blog tomorrow.
People who have bought from good recasters tend to differ. But hey, since you have never held a filthy recasted model in your hands, feel free to let your imagination flow
Ooh, what if he has? If it was painted, he'd never have known.
Now, there's a thought to keep one awake at night!
Actually I have played against recasted models. They were of great quality. Though they were not better than the Forge World Legitimate ones. Not worse either (at least what I could tell from the paint job). My argument was that recasters arent better, not that they are worse. I have never had to deal with hydras though. No doubt the illegal recasts have the potential to be "better".
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SirDonlad wrote: I can never understand why people who don't buy recasts have such venom for those who do.
I've found that the re-casts require more work to get them to the same condition as genuine ones so i see it as paying to save time more than anything.
I wonder why FW don't give you a certificate of authenticity with every model, not just the warhound and larger?
The warhound COA was quite good, i'm going to frame mine at some point.
The venom I think stems from the fact that if everyone just got recasts, there would be no real product. So while many people strut around acting like they are the bees knees and entitled super cool black knights, shoving it to GDubs high prices, the reality is everyone is picking up their slack. If people didn't buy direct from Forge World, they wouldn't make anymore. I think there is just a certain entitlement, arrogance and cockiness with many of those who buy recasts (see Lance's attitude in this thread as an example.)
Lance845 wrote: GW games have just strait up insanely unreasonable barriers to entry. If you couldn't pirate the books easily to get an idea of what you would be getting into I have no idea how anyone would get into it to begin with.
Well, let's call a spade a spade. For a hundred bucks, you get a starter box with lots of models (which have fantastic hobby value), rules, dice, and templates. For $700-$1000 you can put together a pretty decent army. If you're shrewd, you can spend half that buying used. On top of that, prepared to spend serious time getting some models to look cool if that's your thing. That's the entry fee to the 40k club.
Now, you can say, "OMG that's crazy", because for a tiny fraction of that you can play StarCraft until your head explodes.
But, on the other hand, there is an endless list of entertainment that makes 40k look like the deal of a lifetime. People pay that much for a couple of hockey or football tickets without thinking twice. A season pass on a ski hill can be $1,500 or more, and you still need a crap ton of gear, possibly hotel rooms, and all that. A golf club membership can rock $20,000 a year (or more), and it's the same 18 holes and restaurant, y'know?
So, yes, relative to some things, it's expensive, but it's hardly had "insanely unreasonable barriers to entry". It's just a game where you play with a lot of toy soldiers, all of which take a respectable amount of time and money to get going.
Getting back to recasts -- recasts don't really fix that to any real degree. Pick any army other than Imperial Knights, GW will still be cheaper for the stuff in plastic, and you'll still not get out of spending $600+ to build a respectable army.
This proxys are more illigal in the eyes of GW shop owners than recasts, because they can't tell recast from original if it's have been painted and can tell you instantly that your proxy is not belong in their shop.
On the topic: piracy is present and only become stronger as GW drops production wxpences but refuses to drop prices. I think that the rules should be free, they could put their rules on their website and STILL sell their codeces for fluff and illustrations. Hell it is known fact that people are wwilling to buy even illustratin books without ane fluff. Free rules would attract more people into a game. An more: they could FAQed codeces more often, it is not expencive, it is not even timeconsuming, but they refuse.
I personally bought my own copy of codex half year after playing my first game, if I could not play without it, I simply would not start to play at all.
I've actually not seen a store tell someone to remove either a proxy or a recast before. Mind you, I don't really go to the GW store much. What you describe as changes are things that many people would absolutely love, but it won't ever happen with GW. There are lots of companies with games that do have free rules though.
Personally, I think a compromise would be significantly cheaper eBook rules (which have no printing or distribution cost, other than, possibly, the iTunes store).
IF that starter box has races you are even interested in. With condensed rules. To actually start playing anything it's 100+ for the books alone. I am not talking about the costs to keep playing or to expand. I am talking about the costs of finding out that you want to play at all.
I have seen Finecast Zoanthrope recasts for $5 a piece. 15 for 3 zoanthropes or 50+ for GWs 3 zoanthropes OR venomthrope kit. GW will NEVER be less expensive then the recasters. The recasters are using normal mark up margins for cost of production. GW switched from metal to plastic and then INCREASED the price tag of their product.
Big Mac wrote: The funny thing is that most of the FW recasts are better quality than the original. out of the recasts that I've bought only the elysian and dkok have major recast lines that need filing; the knights, thunderbolt, knarloc, XV9, ork bikers, arvus lighter, hydra, macharius, lightning etc are all in good shape. especially the Hydra as it was a well known fact that FW Hydra barrels are always warped.
I've bought the tantalus, tallarns, leman russ turrets, XV81,84, 89, XV9, elysians, avenger, vulture, tetra, sentinel etc. from FW.
In the end of the day, it comes down to affordability and quality, FW isn't always at the top in quality. Other times is FW discontinue a model that I wanted for a long time and finally able to afford it, so I get it where I can. I sleep just fine knowing I buy from recasts as I see them as a business just like FW.
My Spartan Assault tank arrived yesterday. Pretty much 0 mould lines. Tiny but of flash. Nothing bent. Nothing warped. Nothing missing. Nothing needs fillig. I doubt recasters could do a better job haha. Photos going up on my blog tomorrow.
But could they do a comparable job for a fraction of the costs?
Rippy wrote: My Spartan Assault tank arrived yesterday. Pretty much 0 mould lines. Tiny but of flash. Nothing bent. Nothing warped. Nothing missing. Nothing needs fillig. I doubt recasters could do a better job haha. Photos going up on my blog tomorrow.
People who have bought from good recasters tend to differ. But hey, since you have never held a filthy recasted model in your hands, feel free to let your imagination flow
Ooh, what if he has? If it was painted, he'd never have known.
Now, there's a thought to keep one awake at night!
Actually I have played against recasted models. They were of great quality. Though they were not better than the Forge World Legitimate ones. Not worse either (at least what I could tell from the paint job). My argument was that recasters arent better, not that they are worse. I have never had to deal with hydras though. No doubt the illegal recasts have the potential to be "better".
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SirDonlad wrote: I can never understand why people who don't buy recasts have such venom for those who do.
I've found that the re-casts require more work to get them to the same condition as genuine ones so i see it as paying to save time more than anything.
I wonder why FW don't give you a certificate of authenticity with every model, not just the warhound and larger? The warhound COA was quite good, i'm going to frame mine at some point.
The venom I think stems from the fact that if everyone just got recasts, there would be no real product. So while many people strut around acting like they are the bees knees and entitled super cool black knights, shoving it to GDubs high prices, the reality is everyone is picking up their slack. If people didn't buy direct from Forge World, they wouldn't make anymore. I think there is just a certain entitlement, arrogance and cockiness with many of those who buy recasts (see Lance's attitude in this thread as an example.)
In fact, I have mentioned several times in this thread that all my models are purchased plastic from Ebay. I have never contacted a recaster. I purchased a single model from someone on this board otherwise. My attitude is against GWs business practices which every consumer should have for a company that abuses it's customer base. If GW had more respect for us, I would have more respect for them.
The reality is that there are levels of inconvenience to buying from recasters and auctioning stuff on ebay. But the price gap and the inconvenience of dealing with GW itself is so high that those secondary markets flourish. If GW did it's part to work not just with, but FOR their consumer base then the recasters 4-8 week shipping times, questionable quality and no recourse for bad product/customer service would not be worth the effort/risk to money spent.
If you charge a fair price for a fair product with easy access to purchase said product then why would anyone even bother to look for recasters?
They sell a product while trying to make money. I either like that product and buy it or don't. No companies/corporation respect you (Maybe some Small business' aside). They want your money. If they have tricked you in to thinking that you are respected, they have a good marketing/customer service team.
I understand your problem Lance, you cannot afford this product. It is like me saying that I knock off ferraris because they make them too expensive for me to buy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess what I am saying is Lance, you make out as if a business trying to make as much money as possible (albiet maybe in a questionable way) is a personal attack on its customer base. It isn't. It should be you either like it and can afford it, or you don't/can't/won't and you move on.
All I've seen from you can be condensed into "I'm better than you because I don't buy recasts, something something you must be poor, something something no, that other thing I do which can be considered equally morally shaky isn't because I feel differently about that thing. You should all feel bad and are bad people."
Now I'm annoyed for stooping to your level, but feth it.
So, is the land raider I scratch-built from a pizza box an IP violation that needs to be reported and destroyed? And what if I decide to sell that creation on e-bay?
If its not, I don't see any reason why a "recast" land raider by non-GW producer is any more wrong.
Rippy wrote: They sell a product while trying to make money. I either like that product and buy it or don't. No companies/corporation respect you (Maybe some Small business' aside). They want your money. If they have tricked you in to thinking that you are respected, they have a good marketing/customer service team.
I understand your problem Lance, you cannot afford this product. It is like me saying that I knock off ferraris because they make them too expensive for me to buy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess what I am saying is Lance, you make out as if a business trying to make as much money as possible (albiet maybe in a questionable way) is a personal attack on its customer base. It isn't. It should be you either like it and can afford it, or you don't/can't/won't and you move on.
Rippy, you must use a wireless keyboard, I don't see how you could reach a normal one from up there on your high horse.
I think GW has their head up their as$ charging us $0.25 for finecrap model, $1 for the box it came in, $2 for the shipping and handeling, $3 for the horribly written rules when a recast can sell for just $0.25 and cut out all that crap GW marks up on a plastic model.
At first I was a fan boy buying GW models and their full price. Then after being ridiculed for paying $35 for a box of toy soldiers that I had to put together and paint. I finally realized, I really wasted so much money and really need to sell just to recover some money back.
I have differing thought, when a company like GW makes rubbish resin kit as well as FW and charge a massive premium for the experience and after several attempts to rectify the issue with no luck leading thus eventually getting a refund without having that product is exceptionally poor for the customer.
However when you get onto one of these sites and get perfectly recasted product first time after the recasters have fixed up the mistakes that GW and FW should have done, and folks are stunned that they (the recasters) get business.
In the end recasters get business because folks pay good money to get perfect product the first time they purchase, and in relative terms, the recasted stuff is much cheaper and the quality is substantially better.
Rippy wrote: They sell a product while trying to make money. I either like that product and buy it or don't. No companies/corporation respect you (Maybe some Small business' aside). They want your money. If they have tricked you in to thinking that you are respected, they have a good marketing/customer service team.
I understand your problem Lance, you cannot afford this product. It is like me saying that I knock off ferraris because they make them too expensive for me to buy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess what I am saying is Lance, you make out as if a business trying to make as much money as possible (albiet maybe in a questionable way) is a personal attack on its customer base. It isn't. It should be you either like it and can afford it, or you don't/can't/won't and you move on.
Rippy, you must use a wireless keyboard, I don't see how you could reach a normal one from up there on your high horse.
I am not on a high horse, nor do I try and live above my means as Lance clearly wants to do. I don't understand why my simple truth is so upsetting? Also I don't need to use a keyboard, remember, I have my Samsung Galaxy s5 made by chained and whipped slaves
Filch wrote: I think GW has their head up their as$ charging us $0.25 for finecrap model, $1 for the box it came in, $2 for the shipping and handeling, $3 for the horribly written rules when a recast can sell for just $0.25 and cut out all that crap GW marks up on a plastic model.
At first I was a fan boy buying GW models and their full price. Then after being ridiculed for paying $35 for a box of toy soldiers that I had to put together and paint. I finally realized, I really wasted so much money and really need to sell just to recover some money back.
Here is something to consider Finecast is as nearly expensive as the price of international gold bullion, go figure.
Stormonu wrote: So, is the land raider I scratch-built from a pizza box an IP violation that needs to be reported and destroyed? And what if I decide to sell that creation on e-bay?
If its not, I don't see any reason why a "recast" land raider by non-GW producer is any more wrong.
The difference is that one is a single custom-made model that uses GW's ideas but isn't a direct copy of the GW kit, while the other is an exact copy of the original sold in large numbers as a for-profit business. And technically selling your scratch-built LR is illegal and GW could in theory take legal action against you over it. It's just not worth their time to go after someone selling a $1 pile of scrap cardboard.
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Achaylus72 wrote: Here is something to consider Finecast is as nearly expensive as the price of international gold bullion, go figure.
Yes, raw materials are cheaper per unit of weight than finished products. What else is news?
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Rippy wrote: I don't understand why my simple truth is so upsetting?
It's because people don't like it when you question the idea that they're entitled to have GW products no matter what it takes to get them. A future in which they say "too expensive, guess I won't have it" is just too horrifying to contemplate.
I am on a very restricted budget, so if I want stuff that I can get up to 50% cheaper and 100% better quality from a recaster then I'll do it and damn anyone who says otherwise.
Rippy wrote: They sell a product while trying to make money. I either like that product and buy it or don't. No companies/corporation respect you (Maybe some Small business' aside). They want your money. If they have tricked you in to thinking that you are respected, they have a good marketing/customer service team.
I understand your problem Lance, you cannot afford this product. It is like me saying that I knock off ferraris because they make them too expensive for me to buy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess what I am saying is Lance, you make out as if a business trying to make as much money as possible (albiet maybe in a questionable way) is a personal attack on its customer base. It isn't. It should be you either like it and can afford it, or you don't/can't/won't and you move on.
Lets try not making personal assumptions about people you don't know over the internet. Instead, why not take what I am saying at face value. Apple, bad company, treats people like dirt, run by a megalomaniac (until he died). Microsoft, a much better company. Good to decent customer service. Generally well received products or poor products that see improvement later. Run by a guy who donates vast amounts of his wealth to various charities and is giving his kids none of the money when he dies. I gladly buy windows products. Google is another great company. When the NSA told google to give them access to all their data google told them to f off.
Based on this, I don't buy a iphone, but I would gladly buy a android or windows phone. Oh look! I own a windows phone.
As someone who fully believes in capitalism, I get involved with the voting of my dollars. If GW treats people like dirt, I support secondary markets popping up. Somebody needs to teach them a lesson. If it's pirates, then I applaud them. Again, I have a crap ton of models I have purchased in a relatively short time. Just ordered a nice big battlefoam case to hold it in. All pluck foam so I can custom fit all my kit bashes in there as I go. Gladly paid Battlefoam. Good company. Good product. Fair price for the quality.
Rippy wrote: They sell a product while trying to make money. I either like that product and buy it or don't. No companies/corporation respect you (Maybe some Small business' aside). They want your money. If they have tricked you in to thinking that you are respected, they have a good marketing/customer service team.
I understand your problem Lance, you cannot afford this product. It is like me saying that I knock off ferraris because they make them too expensive for me to buy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess what I am saying is Lance, you make out as if a business trying to make as much money as possible (albiet maybe in a questionable way) is a personal attack on its customer base. It isn't. It should be you either like it and can afford it, or you don't/can't/won't and you move on.
Rippy, you must use a wireless keyboard, I don't see how you could reach a normal one from up there on your high horse.
I am not on a high horse, nor do I try and live above my means as Lance clearly wants to do. I don't understand why my simple truth is so upsetting? Also I don't need to use a keyboard, remember, I have my Samsung Galaxy s5 made by chained and whipped slaves
There is no simple truth. You thumb your nose at the people here having an actual discussion while contributing no actual points of your own.
In an ideal world, GW would price stuff fairly and stop trying to make rules just to boost model sales too..
A future in which people settle for 'too expensuve, I won't have it' is about as likely as a future in which corporations settle for 'unethical, I won't do it'.
Achaylus72 wrote: I am on a very restricted budget, so if I want stuff that I can get up to 50% cheaper and 100% better quality from a recaster then I'll do it and damn anyone who says otherwise.
Here's a better idea: buy something else and just accept that you can't afford GW products. This isn't a basic need like food or water that you can't possibly live without, and would be justified in stealing if you had no other option.
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Lance845 wrote: There is no simple truth. You thumb your nose at the people here having an actual discussion while contributing no actual points of your own.
No, there is a simple truth: buying recasts is wrong, and no amount of selfish rationalization will change that. It's only a "deep and complex" issue if you assume that people are entitled to own GW products no matter what it takes to get them, and "find some other hobby" is not an option.
Once again I would like to point out that piracy != theft, and in the case of a consumer being unable/unwilling to pay the original prices, there can't be a directly correlated loss to the original producer.
Not putting any sort of moral compass on anything here, just trying to put things back in the correct perspective. What we're talking about is a violation of ownership rights (more akin to trespass) than theft.
Rippy wrote: They sell a product while trying to make money. I either like that product and buy it or don't. No companies/corporation respect you (Maybe some Small business' aside). They want your money. If they have tricked you in to thinking that you are respected, they have a good marketing/customer service team.
I understand your problem Lance, you cannot afford this product. It is like me saying that I knock off ferraris because they make them too expensive for me to buy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess what I am saying is Lance, you make out as if a business trying to make as much money as possible (albiet maybe in a questionable way) is a personal attack on its customer base. It isn't. It should be you either like it and can afford it, or you don't/can't/won't and you move on.
Lets try not making personal assumptions about people you don't know over the internet. Instead, why not take what I am saying at face value. Apple, bad company, treats people like dirt, run by a megalomaniac (until he died). Microsoft, a much better company. Good to decent customer service. Generally well received products or poor products that see improvement later. Run by a guy who donates vast amounts of his wealth to various charities and is giving his kids none of the money when he dies. I gladly buy windows products. Google is another great company. When the NSA told google to give them access to all their data google told them to f off.
Based on this, I don't buy a iphone, but I would gladly buy a android or windows phone. Oh look! I own a windows phone.
As someone who fully believes in capitalism, I get involved with the voting of my dollars. If GW treats people like dirt, I support secondary markets popping up. Somebody needs to teach them a lesson. If it's pirates, then I applaud them. Again, I have a crap ton of models I have purchased in a relatively short time. Just ordered a nice big battlefoam case to hold it in. All pluck foam so I can custom fit all my kit bashes in there as I go. Gladly paid Battlefoam. Good company. Good product. Fair price for the quality.
Rippy wrote: They sell a product while trying to make money. I either like that product and buy it or don't. No companies/corporation respect you (Maybe some Small business' aside). They want your money. If they have tricked you in to thinking that you are respected, they have a good marketing/customer service team.
I understand your problem Lance, you cannot afford this product. It is like me saying that I knock off ferraris because they make them too expensive for me to buy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess what I am saying is Lance, you make out as if a business trying to make as much money as possible (albiet maybe in a questionable way) is a personal attack on its customer base. It isn't. It should be you either like it and can afford it, or you don't/can't/won't and you move on.
Rippy, you must use a wireless keyboard, I don't see how you could reach a normal one from up there on your high horse.
I am not on a high horse, nor do I try and live above my means as Lance clearly wants to do. I don't understand why my simple truth is so upsetting? Also I don't need to use a keyboard, remember, I have my Samsung Galaxy s5 made by chained and whipped slaves
There is no simple truth. You thumb your nose at the people here having an actual discussion while contributing no actual points of your own.
Excuse me? I am the other side of the discussion mate. I have brought many points to the disucussion, though just because you disagree with them, you claim I don't bring anything. Also your comparing of buying samsung over apple proves you actually don't know what you are talking about here. This isn't "I dont like apples so I eat oranges", this is "I don't like how something is priced so I will infringe someone's IP, buying an illegal product". My goodness, you actually don't understand the difference, do you?
Rippy wrote: They sell a product while trying to make money. I either like that product and buy it or don't. No companies/corporation respect you (Maybe some Small business' aside). They want your money. If they have tricked you in to thinking that you are respected, they have a good marketing/customer service team.
I understand your problem Lance, you cannot afford this product. It is like me saying that I knock off ferraris because they make them too expensive for me to buy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess what I am saying is Lance, you make out as if a business trying to make as much money as possible (albiet maybe in a questionable way) is a personal attack on its customer base. It isn't. It should be you either like it and can afford it, or you don't/can't/won't and you move on.
Lets try not making personal assumptions about people you don't know over the internet. Instead, why not take what I am saying at face value. Apple, bad company, treats people like dirt, run by a megalomaniac (until he died). Microsoft, a much better company. Good to decent customer service. Generally well received products or poor products that see improvement later. Run by a guy who donates vast amounts of his wealth to various charities and is giving his kids none of the money when he dies. I gladly buy windows products. Google is another great company. When the NSA told google to give them access to all their data google told them to f off.
Based on this, I don't buy a iphone, but I would gladly buy a android or windows phone. Oh look! I own a windows phone.
As someone who fully believes in capitalism, I get involved with the voting of my dollars. If GW treats people like dirt, I support secondary markets popping up. Somebody needs to teach them a lesson. If it's pirates, then I applaud them. Again, I have a crap ton of models I have purchased in a relatively short time. Just ordered a nice big battlefoam case to hold it in. All pluck foam so I can custom fit all my kit bashes in there as I go. Gladly paid Battlefoam. Good company. Good product. Fair price for the quality.
Rippy wrote: They sell a product while trying to make money. I either like that product and buy it or don't. No companies/corporation respect you (Maybe some Small business' aside). They want your money. If they have tricked you in to thinking that you are respected, they have a good marketing/customer service team.
I understand your problem Lance, you cannot afford this product. It is like me saying that I knock off ferraris because they make them too expensive for me to buy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess what I am saying is Lance, you make out as if a business trying to make as much money as possible (albiet maybe in a questionable way) is a personal attack on its customer base. It isn't. It should be you either like it and can afford it, or you don't/can't/won't and you move on.
Rippy, you must use a wireless keyboard, I don't see how you could reach a normal one from up there on your high horse.
I am not on a high horse, nor do I try and live above my means as Lance clearly wants to do. I don't understand why my simple truth is so upsetting? Also I don't need to use a keyboard, remember, I have my Samsung Galaxy s5 made by chained and whipped slaves
There is no simple truth. You thumb your nose at the people here having an actual discussion while contributing no actual points of your own.
Excuse me? I am the other side of the discussion mate. I have brought many points to the disucussion, though just because you disagree with them, you claim I don't bring anything. Also your comparing of buying samsung over apple proves you actually don't know what you are talking about here. This isn't "I dont like apples so I eat oranges", this is "I don't like how something is priced so I will infringe someone's IP, buying an illegal product". My goodness, you actually don't understand the difference, do you?
Hey Rippy, if people make knock off Iphones using IOS with jail breaked phones to access their market place and pay the producers of the software while cutting apple out of the picture. Hive fives all around. I care not a single ounce what happens to Apple because they treat people like dirt. If someone could produce knock offs of their product as easily as making a mold I would give them a thumbs up all the way just like I do for the recasters.
I get the difference. They are a crap company that overprices a product and mistreats their consumer base. feth um. Zero craps given. Hopefully (though I have little hope for it) it would be the wake up call that they need to change their business practices. Failing that, any way you, the consumer, can stick it to them. Do so.
It's already common sense that morality and "right" and "wrong" are all part of a sliding scale in which ymmv, Illegal does not = immoral, and a consumer who wants to spend their money will spend their money how they want. If that means a secondary market and they are okay with that, for whatever reason, then they will.
What can GW do to retain their customers? That is the only question with an answer that has any bearing on the reality of the situation.
Lance845 wrote: There is no simple truth. You thumb your nose at the people here having an actual discussion while contributing no actual points of your own.
No, there is a simple truth: buying recasts is wrong, and no amount of selfish rationalization will change that. It's only a "deep and complex" issue if you assume that people are entitled to own GW products no matter what it takes to get them, and "find some other hobby" is not an option.
I assume that nobody is entitled to anything. I believe that people will do what they want up to the point that they are willing to deal with the consequences. GW is willing to over charge you because they don't see a consequence. Recasters are willing to produce the product, because making a new website is easy. And people will buy from recasters because GW is a douche. Thats it. Right or wrong is not a factor. That is the reality of the situation. I would feel bad for GW if GW did anything deserving of affection. In my opinion they don't. So I applaud the people sticking it to them. Keep up the good work!
Rippy wrote: This isn't "I dont like apples so I eat oranges", this is "I don't like how something is priced so I will infringe someone's IP, buying an illegal product". My goodness, you actually don't understand the difference, do you?
Recasting is illegal, but enforcing that is the business odGW and the Chinese government. Not mine as a consumer.
As a consumer I am presented with 2 aalternatives, the genuine product and the knock-off, and I'm not breaking any laws by buying either.
Rippy wrote: This isn't "I dont like apples so I eat oranges", this is "I don't like how something is priced so I will infringe someone's IP, buying an illegal product". My goodness, you actually don't understand the difference, do you?
Recasting is illegal, but enforcing that is the business odGW and the Chinese government. Not mine as a consumer.
As a consumer I am presented with 2 aalternatives, the genuine product and the knock-off, and I'm not breaking any laws by buying either.
This is where the moral part of the argument comes in, buddy, go back a few pages.
Rippy wrote: This isn't "I dont like apples so I eat oranges", this is "I don't like how something is priced so I will infringe someone's IP, buying an illegal product". My goodness, you actually don't understand the difference, do you?
Recasting is illegal, but enforcing that is the business odGW and the Chinese government. Not mine as a consumer.
As a consumer I am presented with 2 aalternatives, the genuine product and the knock-off, and I'm not breaking any laws by buying either.
This is where the moral part of the argument comes in, buddy, go back a few pages.
Morals which are 100% subjective. For some of us buying recasts is just as morally correct as buying Samsung / Apple is for you.
I give up on trying to talk to Lance haha. He doesn't know what he is talking about. Jailbreaking giving producers profits? Ha. K mate. You have proven that you are not moral on this subject, you don't understand the argument, and to be honest, you might not even understand the topic.
Rippy wrote: This isn't "I dont like apples so I eat oranges", this is "I don't like how something is priced so I will infringe someone's IP, buying an illegal product". My goodness, you actually don't understand the difference, do you?
Recasting is illegal, but enforcing that is the business odGW and the Chinese government. Not mine as a consumer.
As a consumer I am presented with 2 aalternatives, the genuine product and the knock-off, and I'm not breaking any laws by buying either.
This is where the moral part of the argument comes in, buddy, go back a few pages.
As stated over and over again. Morals are not an argument. It is both a matter of perspective and inconsequential to the entire situation. Morally correct or not on the part of GW, the recasters, or the consumers, it's happening. So what?
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Rippy wrote: I give up on trying to talk to Lance haha. He doesn't know what he is talking about. Jailbreaking giving producers profits? Ha. K mate. You have proven that you are not moral on this subject, you don't understand the argument, and to be honest, you might not even understand the topic.
I accept your resignation from the discussion. Good bye.
Rippy wrote: This isn't "I dont like apples so I eat oranges", this is "I don't like how something is priced so I will infringe someone's IP, buying an illegal product". My goodness, you actually don't understand the difference, do you?
Recasting is illegal, but enforcing that is the business odGW and the Chinese government. Not mine as a consumer.
As a consumer I am presented with 2 aalternatives, the genuine product and the knock-off, and I'm not breaking any laws by buying either.
This is where the moral part of the argument comes in, buddy, go back a few pages.
Morals which are 100% subjective. For some of us buying recasts is just as morally correct as buying Samsung / Apple is for you.
Yes we have covered that. Some people find infringing someone's IP because they don't want to pay full price acceptable in this thread for example.
Rippy wrote: This isn't "I dont like apples so I eat oranges", this is "I don't like how something is priced so I will infringe someone's IP, buying an illegal product". My goodness, you actually don't understand the difference, do you?
Recasting is illegal, but enforcing that is the business odGW and the Chinese government. Not mine as a consumer.
As a consumer I am presented with 2 aalternatives, the genuine product and the knock-off, and I'm not breaking any laws by buying either.
This is where the moral part of the argument comes in, buddy, go back a few pages.
Morals which are 100% subjective. For some of us buying recasts is just as morally correct as buying Samsung / Apple is for you.
Yes we have covered that. Some people find infringing someone's IP because they don't want to pay full price acceptable in this thread for example.
Nope. Most people find takimg advantage of somebody else's IP infringement (I don't think anyone taking part in the discussion recasts himself for profit) acceptable.
Rippy wrote: This isn't "I dont like apples so I eat oranges", this is "I don't like how something is priced so I will infringe someone's IP, buying an illegal product". My goodness, you actually don't understand the difference, do you?
Recasting is illegal, but enforcing that is the business odGW and the Chinese government. Not mine as a consumer.
As a consumer I am presented with 2 aalternatives, the genuine product and the knock-off, and I'm not breaking any laws by buying either.
This is where the moral part of the argument comes in, buddy, go back a few pages.
Morals which are 100% subjective. For some of us buying recasts is just as morally correct as buying Samsung / Apple is for you.
Yes we have covered that. Some people find infringing someone's IP because they don't want to pay full price acceptable in this thread for example.
Nope. Most people find takimg advantage of somebody else's IP infringement (I don't think anyone taking part in the discussion recasts himself for profit) acceptable.
Rippy wrote: This isn't "I dont like apples so I eat oranges", this is "I don't like how something is priced so I will infringe someone's IP, buying an illegal product". My goodness, you actually don't understand the difference, do you?
Recasting is illegal, but enforcing that is the business odGW and the Chinese government. Not mine as a consumer.
As a consumer I am presented with 2 aalternatives, the genuine product and the knock-off, and I'm not breaking any laws by buying either.
This is where the moral part of the argument comes in, buddy, go back a few pages.
Morals which are 100% subjective. For some of us buying recasts is just as morally correct as buying Samsung / Apple is for you.
Yes we have covered that. Some people find infringing someone's IP because they don't want to pay full price acceptable in this thread for example.
Nope. Most people find takimg advantage of somebody else's IP infringement (I don't think anyone taking part in the discussion recasts himself for profit) acceptable.
Quote your source?
The posts themselves. Several people have claimed to buy recasts,none have claimed to sell recasts.
Lance845 wrote: Why, if GW participates in crap business practices and price hikes their product to no end, should I care that they are being infringed upon?
So, what exactly are the horrible offenses that GW has committed to justify punishing them? The only thing I can think of is their lawyers threatening legal action against that random author for using "space marine" in her title, and that ended almost immediately.
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Lance845 wrote: As stated over and over again. Morals are not an argument. It is both a matter of perspective and inconsequential to the entire situation. Morally correct or not on the part of GW, the recasters, or the consumers, it's happening. So what?
If it's so "inconsequential" then why do you (and other people) keep trying to justify buying recasts? This thread is clearly about the morality of buying recasts, not just the factual question of "do recasts exist".
Lance845 wrote: Why, if GW participates in crap business practices and price hikes their product to no end, should I care that they are being infringed upon?
So, what exactly are the horrible offenses that GW has committed to justify punishing them? The only thing I can think of is their lawyers threatening legal action against that random author for using "space marine" in her title, and that ended almost immediately.
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Lance845 wrote: As stated over and over again. Morals are not an argument. It is both a matter of perspective and inconsequential to the entire situation. Morally correct or not on the part of GW, the recasters, or the consumers, it's happening. So what?
If it's so "inconsequential" then why do you (and other people) keep trying to justify buying recasts? This thread is clearly about the morality of buying recasts, not just the factual question of "do recasts exist".
ONCE AGAIN! I have never sought out and contacted a recaster. I have never paid money to some dude in China to have them mail me a recast.
This thread, was, in fact about the legality of recaster websites. It is not about the morality of anything. And even if it was, it would be a pointless discussion because morality is subjective.
This
Very clearly states some of the crap business practices of GW has and the way it effects both web and brick and mortar stores front and our ability to purchase product. When GW makes it harder for us to buy ridiculously priced products, what naturally occurs is a turn to secondary markets.
I found the part he starts talking about in relation to direct sales at the 5:30 mark to be 100% horse gak. What it amounts to is if you want to play Sisters of Battle your fethed.
Then listen to the part at 10:30. The statement "Every single customer that Mini wargaming is selling to would buy elsewhere if we shut them down". Partially true. Recasters.
Stormonu wrote: So, is the land raider I scratch-built from a pizza box an IP violation that needs to be reported and destroyed? And what if I decide to sell that creation on e-bay?
If its not, I don't see any reason why a "recast" land raider by non-GW producer is any more wrong.
The difference is that one is a single custom-made model that uses GW's ideas but isn't a direct copy of the GW kit, while the other is an exact copy of the original sold in large numbers as a for-profit business. And technically selling your scratch-built LR is illegal and GW could in theory take legal action against you over it. It's just not worth their time to go after someone selling a $1 pile of scrap cardboard.
Yes, but GW would still have the burden of proof that that cardboard Land Raider is a violation of their copyright, which isn't easy to do if the model isn't a direct copy. After all, a cardboard Land Raider is obviously going to be a lot different from a professionally made plastic kit in many ways. So does GW own an exclusive right to use the words "Land" and "Raider" together? Do they own the exclusive right to the basic SHAPE of the Land Raider, and nothing else can be in that shape? Exactly WHAT GW owns, in terms of copyright, has huge legal ramifications, so courts will almost always rule that the copyright only applies to something really specific. This is why many miniature companies get away with selling models that clearly crib from 40k's design aesthetic and are meant to be usable in casual games of 40k. As long as they give their stuff a new name, and don't directly copy GW's designs, they're in the clear. GW can't own concepts as broad as "super soldiers in powered armor" or even, "super soldiers in powered armor fighting for a fanatical religious regime." If that were the case, they'd probably owe the estates of Frank Herbert and Robert Heinlein a whole ton of money.
Recasts, on the other hand, are literally just direct copies of GW molds, so the copyright infringement is self-evident. The end product is virtually identical, so it'll fit even the narrowest definition of a copyright violation.
So no, the two don't really compare, from a legal standpoint.
Lance845 wrote: As stated over and over again. Morals are not an argument. It is both a matter of perspective and inconsequential to the entire situation. Morally correct or not on the part of GW, the recasters, or the consumers, it's happening. So what?
If it's so "inconsequential" then why do you (and other people) keep trying to justify buying recasts? This thread is clearly about the morality of buying recasts, not just the factual question of "do recasts exist".
Well, technically the thread is about the *legality* of recasts and recasters, which is distinct from the *morality* of such
I mean, the former is easy to answer, because the recasters operate from places where the IP rights of GW are either not recognized or not enforced and the buyers don't care.
fallinq wrote: So no, the two don't really compare, from a legal standpoint.
You do realize that "they aren't the same" is exactly what I said in the post you quoted, right?
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Lance845 wrote: Very clearly states some of the crap business practices of GW has and the way it effects both web and brick and mortar stores front and our ability to purchase product. When GW makes it harder for us to buy ridiculously priced products, what naturally occurs is a turn to secondary markets.
Sorry, but I'm not impressed. I don't care one bit about some random online store's profit margins, and GW has no moral obligation to support independent stores*. And none of GW's business policies have made it difficult to buy GW products. Everything they sell, other than the limited-edition stuff, is available at any time from GW's own website. It's 2015 and shopping online is just part of life. Buying any GW product you want is no harder than buying a book from amazon, ordering a pizza online, etc. The only thing the customer loses is the discount that certain stores offered, and "GW won't sell me stuff at the price I want to pay" is not the same as "GW's business practices are morally wrong".
*That doesn't mean it's a smart business decision to stop supporting independent stores, of course. But "GW doesn't maximize their profits" is hardly a convincing argument that they're an evil corporation that deserves punishment.
fallinq wrote: So no, the two don't really compare, from a legal standpoint.
You do realize that "they aren't the same" is exactly what I said in the post you quoted, right?
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Lance845 wrote: Very clearly states some of the crap business practices of GW has and the way it effects both web and brick and mortar stores front and our ability to purchase product. When GW makes it harder for us to buy ridiculously priced products, what naturally occurs is a turn to secondary markets.
Sorry, but I'm not impressed. I don't care one bit about some random online store's profit margins, and GW has no moral obligation to support independent stores*. And none of GW's business policies have made it difficult to buy GW products. Everything they sell, other than the limited-edition stuff, is available at any time from GW's own website. It's 2015 and shopping online is just part of life. Buying any GW product you want is no harder than buying a book from amazon, ordering a pizza online, etc. The only thing the customer loses is the discount that certain stores offered, and "GW won't sell me stuff at the price I want to pay" is not the same as "GW's business practices are morally wrong".
*That doesn't mean it's a smart business decision to stop supporting independent stores, of course. But "GW doesn't maximize their profits" is hardly a convincing argument that they're an evil corporation that deserves punishment.
Clearly you didn't pay attention. 1) it wasn't just an online store. 2) online stores are shut down all together. You will notice that no website ANYWHERE allows you to browse GW product and purchase it through their web store front except GWs own website. You can have catalogs emailed to you and you can place phone orders. 3) GW was limiting the amount of product they could ORDER. Meaning they couldn't sell the product AT ALL. Which hurts? The consumer. You. Me. New players. Old players.
What consumers are missing out on is ordering product without paying international shipping and any other import fees their country might have. When the product is harder to find and more expensive to get, but THAT guy over there is selling it for less? Well now... that guy starts looking like a better person to give you money to.
Again, this is not about morals. I am not painting devil horns on GW because they want profit. If you charge a fair price for a fair product and you make that product easily available (mp3s cost 1 dollar and can be downloaded ANYWHERE easily) then people will not turn to pirating and recasters because the actual product is just easier and people are generally happy to pay the producer of the product. BUT when the companies put in place policies that make it HARDER and over charge... ::shrug::
Yes it was. They had a token "offline" store to meet GW's requirements, but their main business was selling online.
2) online stores are shut down all together. You will notice that no website ANYWHERE allows you to browse GW product and purchase it through their web store front except GWs own website. You can have catalogs emailed to you and you can place phone orders.
Sorry, but a store in another state where I go to their website, email in an order and pay online, and get my purchases mailed to me is an online store. It's an online store with a really bad interface, but it's still an online store.
3) GW was limiting the amount of product they could ORDER. Meaning they couldn't sell the product AT ALL.
And what's your point? GW has no obligation to provide inventory for independent stores. You can (correctly IMO) argue that it's a bad business decision to reduce their presence in independent stores, but "GW isn't maximizing their profits" is hardly a compelling argument that they need to be punished for their crimes.
Which hurts? The consumer. You. Me. New players. Old players.
It hurts nobody at all because every single GW product that miniwargaming sold can be bought through GW's own website just as easily. The only thing you lose is the discount that miniwargaming used to offer, but "GW charges more than I want to pay" is not a very impressive example of evil business practices.
What consumers are missing out on is ordering product without paying international shipping and any other import fees their country might have.
I didn't know you had to pay import fees to buy something from GW's own website in your own country. In fact, I seem to remember it being the opposite in discussions of how to get cheaper GW stuff in countries where their own retail prices are higher than the US/UK: you only pay international shipping if you order from the US/UK website.
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If you charge a fair price for a fair product
Would you like to explain exactly how you determine a "fair price" for plastic model kits? Do you have some kind of objective method, or is it nothing more than "I want cheaper toys therefore GW's prices aren't fair"?
and you make that product easily available
Everything GW sells is easily available from their website. It's 2015 and online shopping is part of life. You don't get to complain about how "difficult" it is to buy GW products when you can order anything you want with a few minutes of effort.
Yes it was. They had a token "offline" store to meet GW's requirements, but their main business was selling online.
2) online stores are shut down all together. You will notice that no website ANYWHERE allows you to browse GW product and purchase it through their web store front except GWs own website. You can have catalogs emailed to you and you can place phone orders.
Sorry, but a store in another state where I go to their website, email in an order and pay online, and get my purchases mailed to me is an online store. It's an online store with a really bad interface, but it's still an online store.
3) GW was limiting the amount of product they could ORDER. Meaning they couldn't sell the product AT ALL.
And what's your point? GW has no obligation to provide inventory for independent stores. You can (correctly IMO) argue that it's a bad business decision to reduce their presence in independent stores, but "GW isn't maximizing their profits" is hardly a compelling argument that they need to be punished for their crimes.
Which hurts? The consumer. You. Me. New players. Old players.
It hurts nobody at all because every single GW product that miniwargaming sold can be bought through GW's own website just as easily. The only thing you lose is the discount that miniwargaming used to offer, but "GW charges more than I want to pay" is not a very impressive example of evil business practices.
What consumers are missing out on is ordering product without paying international shipping and any other import fees their country might have.
I didn't know you had to pay import fees to buy something from GW's own website in your own country. In fact, I seem to remember it being the opposite in discussions of how to get cheaper GW stuff in countries where their own retail prices are higher than the US/UK: you only pay international shipping if you order from the US/UK website.
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If you charge a fair price for a fair product
Would you like to explain exactly how you determine a "fair price" for plastic model kits? Do you have some kind of objective method, or is it nothing more than "I want cheaper toys therefore GW's prices aren't fair"?
and you make that product easily available
Everything GW sells is easily available from their website. It's 2015 and online shopping is part of life. You don't get to complain about how "difficult" it is to buy GW products when you can order anything you want with a few minutes of effort.
I think you should go back and watch that video.
Then I think you should go back and read what I have been writing.
You seem to be confused about the points I have been making. If GW wants to take customers back from recasters it's in their own hands. Any practice they put in place that makes recasters more appealing to consumers drives customers away. Done.
Lance845 wrote: If GW wants to take customers back from recasters it's in their own hands.
It really isn't. The point I've been making is that all of the excuses for why buying recasts is justified are just that: excuses. People aren't buying recasts because GW makes it difficult to buy legally, you can buy anything you want from GW with a few clicks and a credit card (or a debit card if you can't get a credit card). So "it's too hard to buy legally" is something people say when they've already decided to buy recasts for selfish price reasons and want a way to rationalize their bad behavior. Even if GW somehow made it even easier to buy their products the people buying recasts "because it's too hard to buy legally" would just come up with some other reason why they're "forced" to buy recasts.
The only way GW can get rid of the recasters is to commit financial suicide and cut their prices to the point where recasters can't make any money. As long as the recasters can make money they will always find plenty of customers with the entitled attitude that the only thing that matters is how cheaply they can get what they want. So, in the end, the entire argument for recasting is nothing more than "GW isn't a charity that exists for the sole purpose of giving me cheap models".
Lance845 wrote: If GW wants to take customers back from recasters it's in their own hands.
It really isn't. The point I've been making is that all of the excuses for why buying recasts is justified are just that: excuses. People aren't buying recasts because GW makes it difficult to buy legally, you can buy anything you want from GW with a few clicks and a credit card (or a debit card if you can't get a credit card). So "it's too hard to buy legally" is something people say when they've already decided to buy recasts for selfish price reasons and want a way to rationalize their bad behavior. Even if GW somehow made it even easier to buy their products the people buying recasts "because it's too hard to buy legally" would just come up with some other reason why they're "forced" to buy recasts.
The only way GW can get rid of the recasters is to commit financial suicide and cut their prices to the point where recasters can't make any money. As long as the recasters can make money they will always find plenty of customers with the entitled attitude that the only thing that matters is how cheaply they can get what they want. So, in the end, the entire argument for recasting is nothing more than "GW isn't a charity that exists for the sole purpose of giving me cheap models".
Not really. For example, what coukd could GW do to dissuade me from buying recast: start pricing models according to their size and detail, not their tabletop performance and stop shifting game rules around just to push the sales of model X or Y, both of which aren't exactly moral in themselves.
LordBlades wrote: Not really. For example, what coukd could GW do to dissuade me from buying recast: start pricing models according to their size and detail, not their tabletop performance and stop shifting game rules around just to push the sales of model X or Y, both of which aren't exactly moral in themselves.
Sorry, but in what bizarre world is not using the pricing policies that you want an immoral act? GW sells plastic toys, not essential goods/services. If you don't like their prices you're free to buy something else instead. There are pricing decisions that maximize profit and pricing decisions that fail to do so, but no possible pricing decision by GW (or any other company selling luxury items like GW) could be reasonably labeled "immoral".
about copyright in other countries. These sites do eventually get shut down, however.
